##VIDEO ID:7OkRYQvcSqY## hello good afternoon it is 1206 and this is a meeting of the conservation commission's subcommittee on land use policy and we have an agenda that we're going to cover today uh covering a block of policy matters um first will be Community Gardens and second will be basically all the general rules that we have not sent to the commission so far so we have I think an hour and a half and we hopefully we won't belor any points and we'll move all the way through it and then decide to send it to the commission hi Dave we have with us Aaron jock staff of the town of amorist Dave somac uh who's assistant Town manager and director of conservation development and Bruce Stedman conservation commissioner and myself Alex  I'd like to know if and when any member of the public comes up and I can't see that Aon so if you would keep me apprised I'd like to know any public with us now okay I like I'll bend over backwards to uh include the public he from the public and um so we'll we'll go for it I would like to start with uh Community Gardens and I have I can share the version that Ain sent to me um if I can figure out how to share here but uh maybe we don't need to see it to get the conversation going I um I'm going to bring up a topic which I already talked to Dave about and that is I would like to suggest that we ever the community garden from our policy document and um um I don't want to go into the reasons but we never get any reports it is on conservation land and if we go forward with it I'm going to recommend to get a license um and it would be simpler and easier I think if we just wrote something that acknowledged that it's something the Department of Conservation is doing on conservation land and that we simply conditioned the policy that if it expands in its extent that they come back to the commission for approval of that and I've talked with Dave about this general idea uh last week and um he was generally in occurrence in concurrence and thought he might be helpful in drafting some language so Bruce where where would you be on this issue um I agree with it okay and um it would make life easier for everybody particularly Town staff that does manage the gardens and they can have they can just continue to do what they do let's just leave it at that and Dave are you okay with that I think you're you're on mute me no I don't see can you hear me now can you hear me now yes I'm just have a limited time to Wolf down my lunch so I don't want you guys to watch me eating but um uh yeah I'm generally in agreement with that okay so how about if we do this I'll go to the community garden and I will physically measure with a tape the extent of um um the garden that has a fence around it hold on Bruce well well Alex we can do all of that with the gis it's not really necessary we Al Aaron can do that with the gis well it's perfectly easy to run 100 foot tape along the fence and say it's this big well she can do it in in in okay three minutes with the gis so I was trying to figure out some way to describe how big they are now and give them some leeway because there's it's not just the fence they have a work area they got the parking lot they've got the a work area around the fence so I don't want to squeeze them in and be generous with the amount of land that is acknowledged um right I I think Erin and I can come up with that I don't I don't feel the need nor do I want to include the parking lot as part of their area because that parking lot is at either place amethy brook or Fort River Farm not theirs it's a public parking lot and it it's you know if people want to use the trails they use the parking lot so we could acknowledge that you know they will use parking there from time to time and ask us permission if they're having special events something like that okay so um oh okay I didn't think about those things Bruce would it be helpful once if this is a separate entity now once it's in draft final form would it be helpful to have a public session where the people who have plots could get a read added and comment I lost you when you said people who have plots from there on I didn't get it just that maybe we could send it out to them in draft and say what do you think think this is going to be the policy going forward um the town works with them the organizations you're talking about um um not ath this Brook but the other one Fort River Farm Fort River Farm um the town works with organizations there's a whole community and so they're distant from us but they talk to the town so I I don't feel the need to go to the people who are actually using the garden I would think that would be up to the town okay that's fine good so we'll we'll kind of break this off and um yeah then then we can deal with it kind of as a sidebar separate and and we'll we'll still work with you all yeah simple easy much easier then the alternative Aaron I was just going to comment that you know part of the reason why this land use policy was developed was to integrate all of the these discret policies that didn't that weren't combined together and it just concerns me because like I'm I was hoping that this was going to be like a goto document that we would refer to and so now if we're taking sections out of it I just worry that you know what is our policy going to be where is it going to live like how is it going to be integrated into the overall land use policy so I don't know I guess I'm just um wanted to voice that it was a lot of work to combine everything together and so taking it apart again is a little okay I hear you and I understand but we're not taking it all apart we're just divorcing ourselves from Community Garden and we're putting a um a limit on what can be done before they come back to the commission because when I talk to Dave about this it is on concom land and so they are subject to the Conservation Commission but on a day-to-day basis uh reporting basis it's just simpler and easier um to have the have the department handle it which which that would all be under Dave and again for practical purposes I think I think we can we can work on this as a sidebar and it's not a big deal to integrate this back even in 2025 but we're under the deadline of trying to get all these things done into the commission by the end of this year you know I I you know I'm just feeling the crunch of the end of the year as you all are of getting these things done so I think we stick with what we have in this document and then we can work it further Aon you and I and report back to this group Andor the full the full um Commission in 25 before the the season but but we're definitely not dismantling it I think a lot of hard work went into this and um I disagree I disagree Dave I want I want to put a put language in the policy document that separates us from it's from it and send that language to the commission for its approval prior to the end of 2024 well you could put a caveat um that it you know the commission may revisit this in 25 I'm just saying I'm looking at the clock saying we've just spent 15 minutes on this I'm done already yeah I'm done it's just like too much so so we're all in agreement it's a matter of how to do it so I think um for purposes of the end of December we could have a quiet statement in there there would be a heading for Community Gardens and simply saying that this is being delegated to the Department of Conservation to to set policy and manage period and but then we need some definition of what is the Garden in amethyst Brook and what is the garden um the other Garden okay and Aon could do up a GIS map of that no problem to put in the policy okay so glad we're in agreement let's move on and we have um I can I can share share um let's see here sorry that you're going to see the top of my head for a minute [Music] [Music] can you see the draft 115 hello yes can you see words yes okay so this ought to be this actually there's a lot here but it ought to go fairly quickly because we've been through it a number of times over the last year and a half and I'm trying to figure out how to scroll scroll down here here we go so starting at the top um we have gone through uh this this insert native land acknowledgement and I sent to Bruce of words that the university uses and he took on the challenge of of seeing if he could Whittle that down to something to go in here and so forth I hav't I have not made progress but it's it's in it's in progress right so I made progress just not the end okay so um if there is some objection on the town's part of considering adding some native language acknowledgement here do us a favor and tell us now so that Bruce doesn't waste his time that doesn't mean it's been agreed to it it's just if it's a non-starter tell us now uh Aaron feel free to chime in but I I think we should spend the time to figure out what we want to say about the Native American peace I know there I know many groups have um kind of stepped in it a little bit around this so we're going to have to be very careful and get some advice but yes the thing I mentioned was that there is an adviser that came to the Connecticut River water partnership meeting and I have not yet connected with her but and yes that the thing you just said came up in that meeting too so there is a person for me to talk to okay so what I what I what I sent to um Bruce was the land acknowledgement which is a full page in the a copy of it yeah I'm telling Dave Aon it's it's a full page in the brochures that are handed out at balker Auditorium or the Fine Arts Center for any performance and we don't need to say everything they have said um because they go off with the fact that the university is on you know a land grant and money was used to purchase land and blah blah blah or Indian was sold to paper land Grand colleges we don't need to get into that but there are words in here that might be useful to him and so he'll use that and he'll use whatever other language he finds to come up with a draft which is short sweeten to the point and then that will the process as I see it that will go through this group that will go to the once this group is happy with it it'll go to the commission for commission um vote and all by the end of December okay so I'm just going to start going down through this Rachel has a number of comments which we need to address and you all have known this document so if there are points that need to come up let's just bring them up and get through it and we have how many pages five plus a little bit and it should be should be easy so I'm just going to say any any to talk about under the native language acknowledgement and the title general rules okay hearing none uh Rachel has a comment here oh yes Bruce oh with regard I was un clear whether people could just go out there at night which doesn't seem like we encourage that but could there be a permit they could get a permit to go to do the thing she described yeah so I can't I I've got the screen I got to move that okay good Rachel everybody can see Rachel's comment what about organized night hike stargazing folks seeking exercise in the winter months before work or after work with headl lamps um I'm going to turn to Aaron and Dave there's Dave Aaron's got her hand up yep go just wanted to say that that's kind of the process we've been doing so the rules and Rags would be just the standard and then if there was a deviation from that they' need a land use permit okay so the comment here is yes they would need a land use permit from the okay right I'm going to type fast so never mind spelling errors okay we done with that okay um we've got this passive Recreation there was a comment earlier by Michelle noticing noting that it didn't include dog walking and I I think didn't I'm sorry I didn't go through other versions to to meld in comments I might have to do that but I think we put in on leash dog walking right there at number two yes yep oh it's in there okay good okay good sorry I should read first any comments on number three number four number five I don't have anything until 13 okay six 7 8 9 10 11 12 I want to come back to 12 13 I agreed with Rachel yeah she was just yeah she was happy with that 14 Rachel was happy with that I agreed with her okay before we flip to the next page I'd like to come back to Camping uh homeless people we need to have a discussion regarding camping and what would happen if we had an encampment like in Northampton how how would the town handle that would it permit it would it not permit it should we say something uh I can put a comment here if you want to come back to [Music] it well my view is that this is the policy and it's up to the town to enforce it or make an exception on as they deem appropriate well the last time we had something so so plain as this was when the person wanted to um photograph people and folks said it's the law there's no nothing here saying we can wave it so there would have to be if they were going to wave it there'd have to be something um mentioned about waving okay Dave you got any quick comments I would stick with 11 12 the way they are um and cross the bridge on encampments it you know if and when we come to it we right now if there are people camping on conservation land we move them off based on um based on earlier policy um so we do not allow fires we do not allow camping of any kind including uh homeless encampments so we have a very know a very uh patient and compassionate approach to people who are homeless but we do eventually move them off the land um we give them many hours or many days to do it uh we meet with them we we collect their belongings and and deliver them to a pred predetermined spot uh we sign the area before you before we do any of that and we have conversations with them so it's worked pretty effectively up until now you know up up through now so but you have had you have had experience with homeless people camping on concom land oh dozens of times oh yeah it happens many times a year so just leave it alone and don't add language I would not add language nope let's move on so we're on the next page um there's a comment here about M mountain bikes and I think this is um I I agreed with your alternative okay now why would you say organized events or camps uh it's not camps as in holess camping it's like summer camp for kids H okay like if um um gotcha yeah we have a situation yes we have yes we've had that situation there are summer camps too like um Morse Hill up in shutesbury that actually they have their Camp centered in that location but they load up bikes and take the kids for mountain bike excursions at certain locations so that might be an example where the camp isn't Lo on the property but it's used for some you know got Camp related activity yeah ITC Grand camps out of lar Hill for 45 years gotcha okay maybe I put summer camps here yeah that might be better summer camps or after figure how to add to my own comment oh here it is okay I also agreed with your action item oh my comment went in the wrong place um I going back to that okay working with Town staff suggest on which trails and somewhere will be allowed in advance of an action item to be to the commission for its review I don't want to do that today no I agree with the idea though yeah I I I think this language at the top it says mountain bikes and horseback Riders use conservation land at their own risk we agreed on that language all trails are open um I think I independently put that in to be clear because we haven't done the action item okay and I think there was discussion that let's wait to see if there's a problem and Dave talked about insurance so anyway any comments moving on 16 well do you want Aaron to take a stab at at what trails we would suggest that horses and Mountain biker bikes not be allowed based on wetlands and resource areas sure is that something you could take a stab at Aon and we could talk talk about it and then we could email it out to the group sure what is the timeline on doing that just because that would be a bit of a um a task to do run an analysis of that um I'd like to include it so we can conclude by the end of the calendar year but if you need to do it after the the new year we just postpone it okay I can I can try to prioritize it I just Lots going on but I'll do my best yeah your time I understand your time um um just based on your email the other day about working on Fridays on something else and um I don't want to add to the list of things you're pretty you're more than busy now um but I don't know what trails should be open or closed and neither does Bruce or Michelle so we're going to depend on you folks y That's fine so um let's move on and we'll wait for you on that one number [Music] 16 okay number 17 is dogs and um Can Dave answer the questions that Michelle that Rachel asked or eron one of them yeah you see Rachel's comment Dave yes um does the town have a Land Management plan or agreement with natural heritage to protect nesting Turtles going forward who is responsible for enforcing um eron help me out yeah I mean we we have we have a land we proposed a Land Management plan to natural heritage um it was more of an ecological restoration plan um yeah there there is there is um as part of the conservation management plan and expectation that that there would be keeping keeping dogs out of particularly the restoration area which is north of the river and we had originally proposed split rail fencing to try to um prevent public access to those locations I think the problem became we didn't have a funding source for the split rail fencing so they're on the approved order of conditions the plan associated with that but um we just need to to fund that somehow and we would emphasize as we do in all areas that dogs must be on leash it is not an offleash area yeah so I I reply to Aon I mean to Rachel here yes and then to does the town have a plan yes the town has a plan and then who's responsible for enforcing um that's that's Department of yeah you could just say department or conservation department because not all the land will be under Conservation Commission control so just parenthetically I did talk with Rachel about the question of why Hickory Ridge is not conservation land and just emphasized to her that the answer is yet as Ain described to me so she's fine about eventually some of it all much of it will be but it uh Is Yet To Come well we're never going to we're never going to be responsible for the land with the solar so okay um we've been through dogs I'm not sure that we need to spend any more time on dogs and we went through it with Rachel with Michelle so uh her comments are are in here number 18 Animal control officer I don't know this was part of dogs it was not [Music] um it's not a policy and it was supposed to be part of dogs so um um make it f in the list above motorized motorized watercraft are prohibited buffer Pond we've done that 19 20 remind me again on on 18 why did we not list the other pawns that are under Conservation Commission control you know for instance might have just been a oversight I don't call anything intentional why would we not include Plumbrook Pond Owens Pond Cider Mill Pond is that it Erin so Plum Plumbrook is on there um I know there there's gold Pond Dave I I think I remember somebody saying there's no access for motorboats on the other ones whereas somebody might come up to uh the north beach and launch a boat that'll be tough but I think somebody said there's no boat ramp yeah I mean you certainly could put a boat with a trolling motor in at any of these ponds is that something we want or not that's a motorized watercraft okay just a thought you could easily Do It um yeah Alex I agree with what you're doing just add them in it can't hurt there's one missing from this list I've got Owens Pond Cider Mill Pond I don't know why we list hot Brook and not other Brooks I would get rid of hot Brook cider what Cider Mill Pond Plumbrook Pond and I'm not sure why hot Brook is in there at all Plum Brook Pond hot Brook um um well I I I actually added hot Brook because based on my visit there with you I saw no reason why somebody couldn't put in a a um a kayak a canoe or standup paddle board in up Brook I'm mixing I mean that that's down like the Casey Trail I think he's talking about yeah where you and I went to visit at the the be dam beaver dam there yeah but I'm saying number 18 is about what's prohibited so I'm gonna take hop Brook out yeah yeah yeah and I see1 19 is there anywhere where um motorized watercrafts are allowed could we just say motorized watercrafts are prohibited and leave it at that Owens Pond is that the pond uh on Wentworth Farm yes Owens yes okay at some level I agree with Aaron but I think leaving the names in there doesn't hurt anything and it it punctuates the point okay let's let's move on 1920 um or group use of land use U approval is required feeding Wildlife is not permitted and um and fishing I broke apart fishing from hunting and hunting hasn't changed a bit since we talked about it last I I I think my only comment about this hunting section is how to present it to the commission um should we give them the trails map that we used how much I'm looking for some advice here on how much to say to the commission about what we did here to make this recommendation I mean we could have them ready to go and but don't get into it unless somebody really asks for it I like that approach so when we do present it Erin um I'll I'll ask you to queue up certain things like the buffer map and uh I'll to deci side what else but there was a comment by by Bruce that he thought there were this was too detailed and too many too many links and what I was going to do is I was going to make a scan of migratory bird regulations or some other regulations that just that's where that's where everything is and these are we call them policies but they amount to uh regulations I think from the land use standpoint they would be enforced so there's and you wanted wanted to put them in appendix and I I I if whatever you think is the best thing for the public on this topic I that was just a reaction I had to it yeah I just s to the commission and see what they say okay that's fine I invested enough time in this as it is okay um and then Rachel says would it be helpful to add some additional basic hunting rules here less for Hunter more for non-hunter use of conservation land hunting permitted uh X number of feet from houses X number of feet from roads so on no hunting at night um I'm open to that but uh I don't where do was where does it end right I I I was ambivalent about the idea I said let Alex decide my suggestion is do the same as the previous one put it in there simple as possible let see what feedback we get okay I I'll I'll I'll add Rachel's comments and um I just I just think we need to be careful not to have the commission start debating the finer grain detail here mean they can they that's if that's their preference fine but anything we can do to enable them to just vote would be better okay I I I again I I'm not gonna die on my arrow if you will but I I still am troubled by the fact that we're leaving archery in there I just I don't understand if my response you're goe I'm G to talk personally I'm the one who brought this all up and I hung my hat on public safety and frankly Dave I didn't really want to be the one who took it all out okay and so if somebody else wants to object to archery then I'm here I'm listening alide but didn't really want I mean there was some ambivalence from Michelle and Aaron about are we taking all the hunting places away and then as Aaron said hunting is available on other Town land and Michelle said there's other private land that people can hunt on so they sort of got satisfied but um I didn't I didn't want to be the bad guy I will argue to take the archery out and my logic is that my 35 36 year old son who does a lot of this kind of thing out in the world it reports to me that increasingly bow Hunters are not using stands they're hunting in some way they perceive to be fairer by actually walking around if that's the case then it makes it more dangerous I I appreciate that Bruce I just think it's cleaner and easier to defend if it's kind of all or nothing here I just that's what I'm saying it that's a good reason to take archery out with so it's nothing because archery potentially is becoming more dangerous based on the long discussion we had about distances and you know all that stuff okay so let me let me just get to the chase Dave is gonna have to go to Paul bachan and tell ball that we're disallowing hunting on conservation land and Paul's gonna say why and Dave has to tell him and Paul may have other questions and Dave has to answer them so I want Dave to be comfortable with that discussion with Paul I I certainly will have to gear up to with that before that conversation because you you know you know may you may recall I I had I am not a big proponent of hunting at all I want to be out there but I just I didn't think our Banning of other types of hunting I didn't think our rationale was all that strong myself um So based on the trails and and all of that but um you know and and if somebody asked me Point Blank so how many incidents uh of of hunting related safety issues have you had I in 20 years I I'm gonna have to Rack my brain I mean we've had okay fewer than fewer than 10 complaints about that in 20 years so in my time here but again I'm I'm willing to go to bat for it I I Dave tell them about our conversation when we were in hopbrook when the Walker the hiker came along dressed in Orange tell him about his experience with being shot can you recount that more than better than I I think you can Alex well I asked him I told we're standing on the bridge and these two guys come walking along one guy's dressed in blaze orange jacket and hat and I said Dave I'm going to talk to this guy so when he was right there I said how you doing any reason you're dressed in blaze orange and he says because of the crazy Hunters that are out there and he proceeded to tell me that he had been peppered with shot um number two shot somebody was deer hunting with a shotgun and that um the pellets hit his chest they were weak enough that it didn't hurt him I don't think he got any in the face and I said oh you could have lost an eye and he says well I wear glasses but he said the hunter was on the other side of a pine stand and so he explained to us Dave was there that he got peppered and so I said to Dave well there's an example of what we're talking about um it could have been an eye and we don't we don't want an accident we don't want to wait for somebody to get hurt so um there was a real life example of somebody being safe so that's there's a thing in here about people wearing blaze orange during hunting season we didn't tell them how much to where we told them what Massachusetts requires of hunters they can decide decide for themselves and I wrote it that way after talking with Mass wildlife about this very thing and they thought we should be comfortable recommending that people wear blaze orange rather than requiring them to we blaze orange to walk on our Trails so that's why it's written that way is so anyways um the public safety thing I I feel very comfortable and I would be comfortable talking to Paul that we borrowed the buffer that uh Mass wildlife has around occupied dwellings and put it on Trails it's not arbitrary we didn't make something up we borrowed and um so I'm comfortable with that as you know yeah I'm I'm fine with it we we can defend it and and we'll we'll do that so I can I can just simply say here no hunting is allowed period And I can write a comment um uh what to do um yeah if the commission oh um I don't I don't want to think for them yeah let's just let it ride I'm good can I ask a quick question about it before we do um what about hunt what about um Beaver trapping like if there's a public health or safety issue would that be considered an outlier from an an allout ban no that's there'll be something written about beavers and I haven't I know you want something about when to do this and when to do that but Beaver be beavers aren't hunted it's in people yeah I guess hunting and trapping I think of in the same so so it's it's in number 25 down at the in the last paragraph okay I just wanted to make sure that we were covering it somewhere no I covered it not but not here okay so I hear you Dave and I'm to be honest I'm perfectly happy to say no hunting but I've told you H I've told you where I was because well daav is agreed let's let's what do you want me to do to let Dave go for it he said he would do it you want me to change this to say no hunting is allowed yeah so it's it just say hunting is not allowed on conservation land period correct and you could put including archery just to make it really clear I want to make sure that I I've got this whole screen up here I want to make sure that track changes is in place you want in including including archery hunting you want me to say that yeah please including archery I don't need to say hunting I I now get rid of all this uh maybe save it somewhere you don't have to get it again if you need it yeah so um the blaze orange I think would be a good thing to keep though um yeah and it's and Blade the blaze orange stuff remains part of 23 or you want to split it out I think it's fine to keep it as part of 23 yeah okay moving on I I bowed to what others want I okay 25 other than hunting and fishing as permitted by State One it's now other than fishing okay so um somebody thought this was so right here Erin this is where trapping trapping is right here and then it but it says the commission may consider exceptions on a Case by case basis scientific research projects that are non-destructive blah blah blah these propositions do not apply to actions to resolve public health and safety threats created by beavers such as flooding that are allowed under the law and that have been deemed warranted by the Board of Health and consultation with the commission so on and so forth okay so what you don't have and will have is um uh dos and don'ts of of of Permitting and it'll be it'll it'll come from probably the guidance it has conditions in there about you know when it's to there's conditions in there to consider but it still says that even these conditions you can override based on the public health and safety threat wait do we need to go through them now Bruce no I just had two small things if it's if it's not in 24 or in B 24b if it's not already in we might want to Define refugia and then I wondered in the second line of the paragraph at the end should it be by beavers and or muskrats yes do we have muskrats in town yes yeah okay yes it is actually um created by beavers and muskrats thank you okay and refugia and refugium are both listed under definitions okay thank you okay wood of any kind that's number 25 no comments historical that's 26 use of metal detectors number 27 use of unmanned aircraft number 28 and have one one small thing there in deference to women who pilot I think it should say unpiloted aircraft in both places thank you Bruce I actually personally had I sat there and said why what's wrong with this why not why can't somebody go out like off 116 down by um um that big open field on the east side of the road why couldn't somebody you know what's wrong with flying a drone but I didn't feel like pursuing it I what what is the problem with with flying these things well Bruce you want to jump in I'm happy to no go ahead I mean quickly off the top of my head one is is they can be very disruptive to Wildlife uh birds birds migrating birds Landing in a field with uh standing water um you know refueling Shorebirds uh are are spooked and spooked into flight when they're when they're resting or feeding uh they can disrupt animals that are are mating or you know scaring them out of their habitat it's also a disruption I think for people enjoying the peace and quiet of a conservation area is simply to have this buzzing vehicle or buzzing aircraft over your head on a trail or in the middle of an open field and you're like you're bird watching say and all the birds flush and you're like what what the hell just happened oh somebody's got a drone up and they flew into my space so but yeah breeding birds are disrupted by them a lot of I don't know what US fish does or or uh national parks but I think a lot of them a lot of them prohibit them so those are my quick answers so amazing we it's not even one o'clock yet and we've gone through everything that we wanted to I see that and Aaron still have their hands up too I'm sorry I wasn't I was looking at the text I don't know who went up first Ain well I was just going to say um I know the town has a drone and that there have been instances where for official purposes um they've been used for things um and so I'm not sure again if we want to disclaimer you know for town of ammer staff may need to utilize or you know I don't know Dave I defer to you on that but if there was ever an instance where no that's a good point I mean they have been used for instance in scientific research to look at Forest canopy cover uh they've also been used in rescues for people and for dogs very successfully so we may want to put a little caveat in there that you know for instance you could apply to the commission if you wanted to do I don't know uh you know a forest cover canopy study of the mount hoo range conservation areas in the town of amst could you apply to the commission and get permission to fly a drone on three Thursdays in October or whatever Alex read my mind in what he typed yeah beautiful but I I do have a a different thing okay go ahead Bruce so in appendix f Rachel asked the question whether this table the procedure for alleviating Beaver or muskrat related conflicts was too complicated and I disagree with her I seemed perfectly clear to me yeah by the way Rachel's been really helpful there um I never I couldn't get a a a copy of that to put in the document that wasn't fuzzy but it it seems fine honestly so what she did was she used her own she has special programs that I don't and she she took that flow chart and remade the flowchart it's it it takes up three pages but it's it's more the boxes and arrows are much more clear you haven't seen it but um it's caused her to read the guidance in order to make the boxes and arrows and so I leave it to the two of you I it seemed fine to me yeah and she also there was the the letter from the state by the way uh transmitting the guidance to the boards of Health I had a hell of a time converting that PDF file to a word file that heading on the letter was on its own page and then the letter started on the next page and she fixed that so she's been quietly being extremely helpful on the side um she's just terrific um um and you notice that I did put the organic legislation for the commission right up front in that appendix which I I found very interesting to read the the conservation organizations have much more uh opportunity like raising money and grants and all kinds of things uh we don't do that but it's it's possible it's in the law okay I'm delighted so can we agree that um I will I'll keep this copy with all the notes and then uh accept all changes and send it to Aaron to provide to the commission at its next meeting Bruce yes agreed you got your hand up and then Aaron um it was low from previous Aaron um just relative to that flowchart I'm just wondering why con I mean what what is the purpose of the flowchart relative to these to this policy to flow to show the uh decision- making process okay I'm just wondering because it's it's like a it's a regulatory um side of things and I don't feel particularly comfortable um interpolating state regulations into something like that for inclusion in a policy document um I just wanted to state that for the I just feel like we we staff knows what the regulations are and are working to comply with them so I'm just not sure like any any similar to like other discussions we've had you know if it's a regulatory issue we're going through the regulatory process so I'm just not sure how it's applicable to the policy or or relevant to the policy to include that so read the title which is on the screen right now yeah this is a regulation right but that's State regulation which is not I mean it's that that flowchart is pointing to State regulation which this is a town regulation so I'm just I guess I'm just confused as to its relevance in this document when we're going to have a broader conversation about beavers and the timing is not right right now but um let's put that discussion off um okay [Music] um I as you know I have an information request out and uh on how how we are complying and we'll have a discussion about that some other time well so I mean just to that Alex like it's not specific to conservation land that inquiry is like a townwide any it could be on private property it could be on other Town property so I'm just again um I feel a little like it's it's off topic for this but I'm I guess I'm just confused about the relevancy of those requests to our charge as a committee here um how that's all applicable yeah I appreciate your concern folks I apologize because I was called into a meeting with the town manager in like four minutes so I I apologize I have to run I think we're done okay if we can agree what we haven't talked about is what's on the agenda next and um um we can have a we can have a conversation but um Dave if you have to go it's it's probably a short conversation because we have now gone through everything except the redraft to the forestry management uh which I haven't gotten to yet and the Beaver discussion and which is coming and um and then finalizing Community Gardens and what other than that we've gone through all the policies so I think we're in good shape for concluding by the end of December particularly if this goes to the commission at its next meeting okay today was a big leap I'm I am going to run but I'm GNA let you all finish you know what you think is for the next agenda okay Aon is there any member of the public on no okay um basically it's just coming back to having the guidelines to Board of Health it does name the Conservation Commission it actually doesn't name the department of conservation in the in the law or the guidance and um there needs to be a discussion about how we are administering that law on conservation land as well as the town of Amis for that matter so for now the decisionmaking process um I think people need to know the conserv commission needs to know that if somebody files an application and it's denied he has an appeal right and to whom and that if there's flooding of of town Wells who handles that um um I think it I think it's very I think it's handy for the commission to know how it fits in the in in the whole uh Beaver management situation yeah and I don't disagree like you found that Beaver management page on our website I don't disagree that if we want to include you know guidance to people on a page like that I'm just not sure it belongs in this policy document I guess is where I'm well let's I appreciate your comment as staff as a commissioner I'd like to leave it there for now and see where we come out on the end I I agree with Alex let's let's set it aside for now when a beaver situation comes up in the future just heads up Erin I'm going to ask to see the application and I I also oh something else totally different we we on the last Conservation Commission meeting we had an application for banding birds and since then I thought well we don't have anything in the policy about birds banding birds so I have an appointment tomorrow Wednesday in the afternoon with Randy dimers at the fish and wildlife service who runs the banding summer banding on Sylvio County Land um and he's also works for migratory birds at the fish w life service so I've asked Randy um if he would spend an hour with me just coming up with some policy rules that um we might consider adopting for banders and he has sent me his banding permit and um and I also queried the web I just said what are the standard bird banding conditions for Massachusetts and bingo up they came and then I asked what are the standard bird banding issu uh conditions for federal permit and bingo up the game and it's amazing how good the computer is well it sounds like you're going to need to meld those things together I I need to I need to take this opportunity um that we have gotten done early if I can yep me too okay want to finish up on bird banding I'm not GNA repeat what's what are the standard conditions that we like eron's um boiler plates they're anyway okay but things like um netting Birds during the nesting season how long you can hold them all that kind of stuff okay so I'll try and get that done pretty quick so I I know you don't want to talk about beavers um right now I just want to if as you're considering this bringing this discussion up I just want to um point out and you know potentially provide more information if necessary about the emergency certification process because if an request for an emergency certification comes to me for something like beavers or otherwise it could be anything we're supposed to respond within 24 hours so and as of right now I'm essentially authorized to sign those emergency certifications so if there's some other procedure that's going to be happening in terms of those requests being filtered through members of the concom we just have to make sure that there's a regulatory [Music] um process that's being integrated to make sure that we're not holding these up from a legal standpoint because they can appeal to D if we don't respond um so the the emergency CS that you issue are um Wetland emergency Cs and the two conditions the B and C conditions for which you get involved in affect well you're involved you the con con by the way the Department of Conservation is not even named in the law so you sign and Dave signs I'm not sure that your signature is legal I'm not sure no Alex they the staff I have been duly authorized to sign off as an agent of the board can can the can this get worked out later well I'm just yeah I'm just making sure that we if we're gonna talk about it holistically we should talk about it holistically but just taking into to account the statutory obligations of the Commission in the town when these requests come in that it's not like we can spend 5 days passing it through to get everybody's or you know hold a special meeting or something like that because that would require 48 Hours advanced notice the guidance the guidance to the board says that emergency doesn't mean that there is that the house is on fire emergency is interpreted to mean that the permit should be is issued quickly and short term 10 days you're you've been issuing 30 days routinely and um I I you know I have an information request in so what I want to do is just lay on the paper lay on the desk all the papers I get and see what the process in fact is what right and I think we're also getting across the conservation permit vers the Board of Health permit so the Board of Health permit is a 10day permit the concom permit is a 30-day permit so if I issue an emergency CT it's valid for 30 days if board of health issues a 10day trapping permit it's valid for 10 so there's there distinct there yeah I'm I'm looking through the law to try and clarify whether the Board of Health is the only one to issue a permit in in with regard to option b and c it says that the Conservation Commission notice that it doesn't say the Department of Conservation must um approve and condition what's not clear is whether or not that approval condition goes back to the Board of Health for issuing of the permit so I want to I want to say a system is in place that works there's no doubt about that beavers are being taken care of businesses being conducted it all happens the Conservation Commission is always asked to approve in the rear and and yet the Conservation Commission is named in the law why is the Conservation Commission always asked to com to approve in the rear when it is the one that is uh named in the law well so when an emergency start comes in we have to respond we can't always schedule a Conservation Commission meeting so so the way that it's always been handled with d is there is an authorized agent of the board or the chair could sign off an emergency CT and then once that's issued it's ratified by the board emergency doesn't mean the house is on fire for example Eastman Brook has been there for a long time and that's not an emergency but an emergency CT is issued because that's what's that's what's called for but it doesn't mean that there is an emergency like bring the ambulance it it it the law is very careful to Define what emergency is I think if the commission has a question it's Alex's question but that that we should find a way to get an opinion from the town lawyer as to what is acceptable and make it clear well I'm gonna be on the phone with the AG's office about this and I yeah I mean Alex I I ENC I I want us to abide by the law I just want to make sure that we have an established process that conforms to the law based on my knowledge of it so you can call the president's office if it makes you feel better and I encourage you to do whatever due diligence you think is necessary I just I don't I I'll I'll leave it there if if I just want to make sure that if something comes to me I know what process I'm following and I Know It complies with the law and I'm giving people a fair response in Fair time never mind compliance with the law Erin you're doing a great job continue what you do we will will it the system works then if it gets changed it gets changed in a formal way that's yeah the system works things are getting done in a timely way there's no criticism there whatsoever you shouldn't feel personally you're not being personally attacked but Paul bamman doesn't know how the system works neither does Dave my suggestion is to look in you you've described four different things that need that you were intending to look into in order to achieve Clarity so let's my suggestion is to table this until you have a time to do that yeah thanks I lost my screen are you there yeah yes oh now I'm back okay yeah be at ease Aaron continue doing exactly what you're doing but I've told you some of the some of my thoughts and the fact that the the fact that the Board of Health does not have an application on its website to help a citizen know what to do the fact that it doesn't have a decision-making chart to help a citizen know what to do the fact that Mr Hurley or whatever his name is wrote directly to to Paul Bachman instead of the director of Health um people don't know what to do well we can fix that but we need your information yeah so I'll write up I have talked with Dave about this I really do need to was trying to escape earlier okay let's do we have a motion to end yes I I mve the we adjourn I I'm an i okay let's we're gonna close this meeting at 1119 okay thank you thank you Erin thank you Erin if you just stay on for a minute don't don't get all worked up everything's fine you're doing a great job