##VIDEO ID:lZ2UMKcvHaM## okay welcome to the September 11 20124 meeting of the emmer Conservation Commission the time is 7:05 we have all members present except Laura and staff presid are Erin and Dave zc is not here tonight um so Aon do you mind pulling up our PowerPoint for tonight of course um we're starting off with comments from me um one thing I'd like to say is that it's come to my attention that town and staff specifically Aaron has been contacted about invasive Management on private lands in the town and if there's members of the public present and also for Commissioners for outreach I want to draw everybody's attention to the resource of the UMass extension programs for these um that is very much a tax funded land grant University program and they have experts in everything from tree disease to invasive removal so if you have people contacting you or you're doing any kind of personal Outreach please keep in mind that the UMass extension services are an excellent public resource for anything from ticks to tree disease to um managing invasives on your property so that's it for me Dave's not there I see Alex hand up so go ahead Alex I have a hard stop around 7:45 okay let's shoot for that Alex thank you Bruce um and I have a a two-minute note when you get the chance before we go on to the rest okay how about now Bruce go ahead so this is to inform you that the Fort River Watershed Association is doing a project to enhance the Fort River Watershed um and there is basic frame is that each of the conservation commissions is having one person participate and then we're reaching out to people from other agencies and institutions uh environmental groups land trusts Wildlife service state agencies Etc um you'll hear more about it as the days go by um Dave zc is representing the town Conservation Commission in the program and our goal is to find ways to have projects that are cross boundary and cross topic um so that we do better about our communicating with each other and the other conservation commissions and we do better about seeing things that actually can get done rather than I started out calling it a visioning process I stopped calling it that because it's not way up here it's let's find three or four actual projects that could get funded and could get done to enhance the Fort River Watership um the association is sort of the manager facilitator of the project and that's where we are thanks Bruce um I think we had talked about Dave being our liaison should we have him be in contact already okay yeah so we're good with that that's a solid contact connection all good okay great in fact I think I've interviewed all of the commission Representatives now so okay they're connected well um please keep us posted and I'll just sort of eek out some room in the director's report for that Bruce thanks little little pieces as we go by the first meeting is October 17th and then you'll hear some some more about it after that great okay thank you okay um all right so moving on director is not here um conservation land use applications we have none we had a very last minute application we might get to that um contextually later um and so we're on to land subcommittee um context I'm so I'm thinking Erin maybe we want to just like take care of business and then we can reserve time for that what do you think I think that would be fine yeah okay we only have a couple things to knock off the agenda otherwise um do you want me to just jump in yeah please give us your okay so Wildflower I have no updates um I did send an email to the owner kind of pleading for an update still no response um there's a request for certificate of compliance um on the agenda um that is tabled because the submission was incomplete and there's some additional information that's needed um also just to get it off the the docket um the order of conditions for monteu Road um we've had some back and forth I've had some back and forth with them this week um they have worked to they've basically they've granted us a 21-day extension on issuance of the order of conditions because their um revisions have been a little um kind of clunky I guess you could say like we we've I requested the revisions that were requested at the last meeting the document came back to me missing a bunch of stuff so they're working to update it and get sort of a final polished version that's ready for issuance in the order but it's it's close um it's just like a final map that basically needed a final edit and it wasn't ready for tonight tonight so I didn't want to issue on that okay thanks um so back to Wild Flower Drive can we specifically ask for I think we discussed last time a site visit at the end of November so within the month well so that was at Trillium um oh sorry Wildflower yeah so Wildflower is the other enforcement site but it's right there um we can look at it while we're out that that way have they um been in communic about that request the site visit at the end of um I did email Iman but it was it was to be fair it was like I want to say like middle of well end of last week so I haven't heard back from him but I'm sure that it will be fine they've been very Cooperative um so so maybe we can tie those in together and if anybody can do it they're very close um literally a minute or 30 seconds if not less apart um and it would be helpful to have some commissioner on both the properties that haven't seen it before okay um we don't yeah I I did ask Iman for a couple dates that would work for him and then we'll hash it out as a board yeah and and I'd like that include the board's a availability above all too um as well as yours of course um okay and so we have a request for extension of order on conditions well Jason had his hand up too I don't know if he's no I'm good go ahead okay okay so um so the request for um extension of order of conditions so I don't want to glaze over this um I'm going to throw myself on the board's Mercy a little bit tonight um and kind of explain this very challenging situation so um I regularly get a lot of requests from people who are looking to find out when their permits expire and calculating when permits expire has been particularly challenging um for permits that were issued during the governor's covid tolling period because the the tolling period basically you know for permits that were valid up to the date um and I I think it was like March um I can't remember the exact date in March but it's like a date in March 2020 if it was valid on that date it's eligible for a 462 day extension I was contacted by a homeowner the homeowner or the landowner at 82 um p uh Palm Roy saying um could you tell me the the expiration date on my permit and we use a software internally to develop to to determine what the the expiration dates are I run this calculation all the time for land owners to try to make sure they have the right date for their expiration on their permit okay so I'm going to try explain this as succinctly as I can on on the software that we use there is a a toggle switch basically for um business days and calendar days and when I ran the calculation I didn't realize that this that the um toggle had switched to business days so when I ran the calculation it gave me a August 2024 expiration and so I told them okay your deadlines the end of August 2024 you're all set for a while and they assumed they were all set and then there environmental consultant contacted me a while later we were talking about some you know their project or whatever and I think it was him who inquired again and said could you just verify the expiration date and I ran it again and it was January 2024 at this point the date had already passed um like long past it was it was like summertime and I'm like what is going on here so I I couldn't figure out what had happened with the calculation and I tried to sort it out long long story short um this land owner was really upset and rightfully so um their permit had expired um unknowingly to them and they were given incorrect guidance from me um so I contacted de and I explained the situation how the calculation was messed up and it was not the landowner's fault and D said this is an extenuating circumstance they're not going to interfere with the commission issuing an extension and they basically recommended that the the commission Grant the extension for three years um for the applicant so I'm asking the commission under the circumstances that I made an error and this landowner could have easily requested their three-year extension if they had known if the board would be willing to grant them a three-year extension um from the from the date that the permit would have expired which would have been um January 5th 2024 um so basically three years from that date to allow them to be able to construct their house so I'm asking the board if they you would consider that considering it was it was a simple human error on my part that caused the problem um so thank you Ryan go ahead Bruce so that means to January 25th 2027 yeah and you don't even need to put the deadline um it'll when I issue it I'll I'll issue it for the deadline of the original permit so it'll carry forward okay Jason um Aon when did they originally contact you to see when their permit expired um it was the summer of 2023 okay so it was well before their permit would have expired okay good Jason yep Andre thank you um I have no problem doing that I think that uh you know since it's an issue that uh kind of we as Government slash commission created uh that uh we need to fix it so I have no problem with that with extending it okay looking for a motion to issue a three-year extension of order conditions on D number 0890 659 for 82 par I see hold on I see Alex hand up gonna yeah go ahead Alex yeah technically it's not our responsibility to remind it uh people when their when their deadlines are that's their responsibility so I don't want to imply by doing this that and even though Aaron is courteous and giving people information the responsibility lies on them not us not eron so if a if a an extension is granted it's a courtesy understood Alex thank you all right I will move we extend for period of three years the order of conditions for D file number 089 d0 659 482 Pomo Lane map 20c lot 150 second I have a motion by Jason and a second by Andre Okay uh Bruce hi Jason I Rachel I Andre I Alex I and I'm an i well thank you guys very much for your understanding I appreciate it yeah soon that we'll all pass over right except Co itself okay um I think that's for business and we can move on to our [Music] subcommittee agenda yes okay okay to introduce this um thank you Alex for preparing materials and getting them in the folders today and thank you Rachel for giving comments and reviewing um I was hoping Dave zc would be here because this is very much a an issue particularly that he has um extensive institutional knowledge as well as just Direct a knowledge being a manager of lands for a long time so given that he's not here to participate in the conversation which he has been a participant in in pretty extensive conversations with Bruce Alex NY on the subcommittee I'd like to basically review um introduce and review it discuss Rachel's comments and just sort of open this for discussion I I don't know that we'll get to vote tonight um but this is maybe one of the primary and major topics of um land use management and it's historically for ammer been a very big deal and Dave will talk about the dog Wars when they've opened up uh public meetings for this so we are revisiting existing rules and um sort of bringing them up to speed with current understanding of uh dog use on conservation lands and better understanding of impacts to conservation areas so there were two documents circulated unfortunately very sort of late one was um the document itself uh which Rachel provided comments on and then very late in the game I also provided a municipal literature review and this is I think from the city of Portland that underwent a pretty substantial um study for their municipality about uh dog rules and dog impacts to conservation lands I don't know who's had a chance to look at what but both should be considered and I think we can maybe just pull up Erin if you would mind pulling up maybe our current document starting with the memo which uh seeks to Define the issue at hand and provide some background and I will say that um Alex did a great job of balancing the need to be succinct and keep to a page while also addressing the very complex Myriad issues related um to dogs on conservation lands so I think we'll just go through this sequentially and I will also give the floor to Alex Alex just raise your hand if you want to interject to any point so Alec um Aaron we're looking at a clean version right now um Alex go ahead is your intention to have this kind of a discussion with every item that we bring to the commission not necessarily I thought that Dave zc would be here today I think he's a very integral part of this conversation um and also I want to sort of take a poll to the commissioners uh as to who I guess Jason and Andre were you able to did you have a chance to review it no my question is we have an agricultural policy in front of people and we'll have other policies in front of them and I'm asking if you will uh be unilaterally moving the discussion to the board on each one of them I think I'd like to do that I think I'd like to keep this conversation to within half an hour if not 20 minutes um I think that the discussion is probably the most uh valuable part of this uh movement on what the policies are um like we certainly have never had enough time to discuss so I'd like to give the board enough time to have a conversation about it um I think some of them will go much quicker than others but I think this one warrants due time so given that Dave isn't here today I just want to go through this and you know what Alex this could also be sort of a since this is our first up we could make this our test count and see how it goes and then maybe tailor it from there but um we have some time I think we have at least you know 45 20 minutes for you so um why don't we start why why don't you just why don't you just do it yeah I can't exactly see that eron do you think you could make it a little bigger um so I'm just going to give some background on the issue amorist conservation lands are heavily used by people with dogs and that's been increasing especially since 2020 um that's just a nationwide Trend before 2020 This was um a contentious issue that's been raised several times in public meetings with great attendance in public meetings and a lot of contention so there's some um reference to a previous visiting of these rules um I think Rachel um commented on what exactly was determined at those but prior to Dave's tenure there the rules that are currently in place which is offleash laws from in the mornings at uh lower Mill River and Amethyst Brook were determined and that was a result of very significant public hearings a discussion and that's what it has been for a long time yet there remains um conflicts with the public and different kind of uses on these lands this is very much elucidated by the open space um and Recreation survey where conflicts with offleash dogs was raised as a primary concerned with users of conservation lands so we do know that is an existing issue for users of public um lands we do know that is a primary use of conservation lands and it is a valued use of the people of ammer there are tangental things like people from out of town coming to use the lands there are things like um commercial dog walkers using the lands there are definitely um conflicts which we also know from Dave are under reported under recorded um as there's not really a current database or really tallying or any kind of keeping track of how many complaints or how many altercations there have been between off Le dogs or dogs and people and dogs and dogs but there are more than what we than anyone would know there to be they just get handled sort of under the rug so so those are the issues and just to say that it is an issue and that's why we're spending time on this um we are at no point in conversation about not allowing dogs on conservation land dogs are allowed on all conservation land so this is sort of honing in on what the exact uh regulations are around dogs on conservation land so getting into this document I see a lot of um track changes so I'm going to just roll into the into the yellow here um okay for those of you who haven't read it um I think we're just gonna go through it uh sequen can I explain this memo sure go ahead Alex yeah and first of all I don't know why the text is R um but anyways I drafted this as a way to S of summarize the issue because it doesn't say anything in the policy statement about use and um um one of the things that has happened we believe and Rachel commented on this is a dog use increase during Co and a lot of pets were a lot of dogs were purchased during covid and uh so it's our feeling that use of dogs on conservation land went up during covid and has stayed there Rachel commented and wanted to know how many dog licenses were issued in 2024 and I made a call today to the assist to the town clerk's office to try and get a number and that's still in process so I don't have any answer for you Rachel so um the statement about increasing use is the general sense of people who watch the trails or work the trails that's where that and also nationally that was a trend so just trying to address your comment about um the increase of use we don't have an answer for you yet Rachel yeah I I I just want to clarify um that it seemed like during Co the co pandemic um it wasn't just dog owners it's all users um increased use so in our state and Nationwide um there are there are data sets supporting just um massive increases in in use of conservation areas which you know you think about these areas that already have conflicts and you increase use and intensity and density you we're going to experience probably more conflicts in those in those areas right quite true and so here we are um okay so I'm going to just move on to the okay I think the second one is about I'm sorry I'm just trying to really look at this very small text okay well I'm is this actually showing the changes that Rachel made um or is this it is okay so it seems to be all changed however it's like all track changed I'm not sure this is the one that I reviewed before so I know that one thing that is coming up is there can we go to the rules can we just like move from the memo go ahead Bruce I I just I think the rules is a very straightforward way to do this and and the memo supports the rules so let's start with the rules um so commercial dog walkers so a land use regulation and Rule is that there is no commercial use of conservation lands so that is a primary reason why commercial dog walkers are not allowed secondary to that is um an like the observation that there have been problematic dog walking commercial dog walking Enterprises on conservation lands that have caused trouble for other users and to your point Rachel that has been related to the number of dogs being used so I it's sort of multifaceted here so that number of dogs being used called attention to the fact that these lands are being used by even out of state people coming to anmer conservation lands to walk Regional dogs on conservation lands and there's commercial Enterprise happening on conservation lands so fundamentally that's um not in accordance with our land use regulations and then secondary to that is just the problem that sometimes like half of these seven dogs are off leash and there's not adequate control happening and that's something that Dave zc has commented on and um that so that's just to respond to there so that really is a response to the ammer land use regulations so I see your point about Equity of older people sort of needing people to walk their dogs and sometimes that could be a onetoone ratio and I'm trying to explain the basis of this law or this Rule and I'm seeing hands I'm gonna call him Bruce first well I was just going to point out that Alex is an experienced trainer of dogs and so his views have been embedded within these documents true and number two is commercial dog training yeah um so that addresses commercial dog walkers um okay Alex go ahead we can't hear you Alex are you on mute you okay it says you're on meet right now so maybe all right Alex wants a a break okay I'm just going to move on to commercial dog training classes and we're goingon to let Alex way back in on that because as ruce said he does have experience um there the Amorous dog park was created specifically to take pressure off of places like amethyst Brook and offleash dogs use of that I think the intention and again I wish Dave was here to describe this because this was his um idea I think that um activities such as that could PL take place in a designated area that weren't there for conservation purposes and again I just want to be explicit about the fact that emmer conservation lands are conserved for the preservation of natural resources and sensitive species sensitive habitats that exist there and water quality secondary to that is uh residents use of it and residents use of it includes dog walking but dog walking is allowed on all conservation lands and sometimes we're really honing in on offleash dogs so I just want to point out that uh we have a mission statement and we have regulations and this dog regulation exists within the context of those two things Alex can we hear you yet yeah I'm sorry I just had a microphone problem I had plug it in unplug it plug it in we're good go ahead to address Rachel's comment I uh about some people being infirmed and paying somebody to walk their singular dog or pair of dogs or whatever I wonder if a solution to this in consideration of Rachel's comment might be instead of a blanket no commercial use to put a number on the number of dogs the commercial walking of more than x number of dogs is not allowed um in order to give consideration to the kinds of people that Rachel pointed out yeah I mean I I hear you guys on that it still is in conflict with the non-commercial use uh rule of conservation lands and I wonder maybe if a workaround could be a permanent application so that somebody that needs their dog walked and it's one dog or they could just specify that in a permit could just communicate to the town that they will be doing this and honestly it probably will go unnoticed unless 's an issue if it's just one dog but um that would both give them sort of license literally to do it and like also alert the town about what the current uses are um and be consistent uh with our rules and rigs okay I think Jason's up thanks I don't know how much of how much how indepth of a conversation we want to have right now is this meant to really go into a bunch of things or are we trying to keep this as more of an introductory uh just an introductory conversation to this and you're looking for comments offline um I mean it would be great to have had comments offline for everybody to think about but here we are and I definitely expected I expect this could take us six hours of a meeting honestly like this is the this is the it's not just us it's the entire nation and you know continents different continents are dealing with this exact problem it's it's a real problem it's becoming greater expressed because of the like Rachel said and everybody has said like the increase in use in conservation lands the increase in conflicts between users so I would like to allow um time for this and I'd also like to let you call go early and I'd also like Dave zc to be a part of the conversation because he's had like 20 years of experience doing this and he knows far more about what's actually happening on the ground than any of us do um but to that do you wanna do you want to make a comment on either number one or two at this time um I guess my no I I really want to make an overarching comment and ask a question about the dog park you know you mentioned that it was it was put into place to try to take some pressure off of amethyst Brook do we have any idea if it's actually working and is there any intention to if it is working is there any intention to put other dog parks in other parts of town as far as I know that's the only dog park in town is that correct yes and as far as yeah go ahead Aon um so I I think the intention is not to put more dog parks at least not at this time um it they're incredibly expensive um and very very time-taking to go through the whole sort of design permitting funding construction process um uh so I think that at least answers one of your questions um there was there was there a second part to that that I missed is it taking pressure off um um yeah is it working no uh so I think the answer to that is is not really I think one of the things that we've discovered with the dog park is that there are people who and I think this comes down to probably mobility issues and and also like certain types of activity that people want to do with their dog at the dog park versus people who want to walk their dog um and let their dog run sort of in a natural environment um and sort of training recall and stuff like that and so I think um we haven't really seen a reduction in the use of conservation areas as was sort of originally thought it it serves a different purpose I think is the ultimate thing like a a dog park isn't the same as you know a walk through amethyst Brook kind of woods and any dog owner will understand that it's not exactly convenient either there's only a few parking spaces there and you know unless you live right near it you have to drive to it as opposed to someone said you know most of these most people have a conservation land within a f minute walk of their house yes all good points um Andre so in reference to uh item number one um commercial dog walkers and item number two commercial dog training classes you know I don't think that uh I I think like uh the rule are set out already a commercial use I don't think should be should be permitted um there are yeah let's remember that on aside from conservation land um in the general vicinity there are other lands that are accessible to folks hear you Adrian Andre oh okay I could I could hear you but maybe speak louder I'll speak I'll speak a little closer on that Al I turned up my volume that'll work too um so there are uh other lands aside from conservation lands available to folks to take uh uh to take dogs and so on such as commercial uh dog walkers or commercial dog training classes I mean I I I don't know I think um I don't I don't see a good reason to to change those rules um let me just I mean I guess we're going to get to uh we're going to get to uh dog waste and um all that stuff later right at some point are we going to yeah well um I mean that's a rule I think that is part of the memo which describes why we are hashing out to the extent that we are these dog rules um you know Alex did a good job trying to provide some background to all of this which because it does need context you know what why what is the purpose of not allowing some of these things and because this is a very emotionally charged you know frankly conversation I think that some memo and um context is absolutely needed um and it's kind of strange that and unfortunate that we're starting out with this one in particular because it's probably I think the most charged one of everything that we're going to talk about but here we are and as we're talking about it I think I'd like to just review our you know one to whatever they are and maybe everybody could go back and consolidate their thoughts and some comments to the text and then um when Dave's here we could have a more assisten conversation but I think formulating thoughts and talking about the background issues about this is is important to the conversation go ahead Bruce uh for numbers one and two I just remind us as a whole and the subcommittee in particular we will have to make sure that it's not in um that there's equivalency with regard to what constitutes commercial on the agriculture side Because unless someone is a really careful reader they may basically say well these are the same thing they're both commercial why not here when you're allowing it over there so we don't need to talk about it now but we do need to remember to make it really the same thanks frce yes good point agriculture is its own sort of Standalone situation um Alex um my time is nearing when I'm gonna turn into a pumpkin for a little bit I can come back but at the rate you're going you haven't even gotten past one and two here you're going to be a long time and I frankly think the best place to Hash some of this out is in the committee um this wasn't discussed in the committee to have this discussion tonight um I think some of the comments are useful but uh that's why we you know we spent a year on all these things and we had to ask for an extension in order to get finished if we I know Alex but the realistic part of it is that people's uh the the conversation is really where the great thinking and and things happen and I'm I'm was fully expecting that we'd have a longer conversation about the topics at hand where everybody could provide what they understood so would you prefer that we pause this because you aren't going to be here you no you're doing a great job you unilaterally decided to bring this out of the subcommittee it wasn't discussed and agreed upon so have at it I've got to step away okay thanks Alex okay um so we number one and two are related to commercial uses and we discussed the context of that okay Andre go ahead yeah I was never done with my uh with what I was saying oh sorry okay um so uh uh well you know I I I think uh you know as far well I guess I'm going to have to uh do a little bit of reviewing of what uh what you guys have written so far and then we'll have a bit more of a discussion of this is that what we're going to do in the future Michelle so the idea was that the subcommittee would do most of the discussion discussing and that we'd bring to you the fruit of that labor and that everybody would review it on their own time come with comments and then we'd have a shorter discussion with the committee the concom about um finalizing the rules so realistically um a lot of the hashing out of these rules happens through conversation and I don't necessarily expect it to be easy um but I think that if everybody could do their background review and thinking offline and you know submit their comments which go to Aaron and then are provided to the rest of the commission so that we all know where everybody is on what page they are and then we have an informed discussion on a sort of like greater platform is probably the most efficient way to do it um but to be honest like the subcommittee doesn't have even enough time to discuss any of this stuff um it's complicated and it has a lot of background and a lot of history and that's why I was sort of hoping Davis to guide us tonight um again and I also think it was like difficult to start with dogs but this was the one that was ready for the commission to review nothing else is ready yet so here is where we start um okay maybe this is a good exercise and seeing some of the complex ities of the ideas that we're offering to you and the value of just reviewing it offline along with some of the permitting and hearing stuff um because we do want to get this handled by the end of the year and um it's really just going to take some like thoughtful and very efficient conversations to make that happen okay all right I'll review it um you know and then I'll I'll make my comments um yeah I've had I've got 30 years of enforcing this kind of rules okay very valuable also trained trained several hunting dogs in and uh as well as uh my family's um service dog so uh plenty of experience there so we'll we'll do what we can to help thanks Andre uh and and I think we should as a subcommittee and Bruce talking to you guest now be good about putting our informative material all in a folder not just what we come up with but like if there's any documentation that we used to come up with those sort of um to come up with the stuff that we did just background information that we should give everything in consideration to the commission go ahead Bruce so I I see three things in this one is the Rachel set us up with a lot of really good questions so it enables the other people Andre Jason Laura to comment on something that she didn't already say or to reinforce what she's already said two as far as I know there's no prohibition against any of you especially Andre coming to the subcommittee we meet next week and conceptually if people wanted to come and join the discussion they can do that and then we can solve it and we could certainly schedule time for specific topics if you're able to join and Andre and in everybody it's a it's like a lunchtime meeting so if there's something particular that you want to uh participate in I'm seeing Aaron are you gonna tell us it's not allowed Aon go ahead no no not at all um I was just gonna say when we do our notes our edits um I don't know if the formatting how that was the comments that Rachel put on that if they were put in as comments or if they were put in as track changes yeah I wasn't I I track changes but I do comments in the future yeah I was going to suggest if people have com because it seems like her her track changes aren't actually track changes they're just questions or comments so if people comment as a comment and not as a track change it will help us to discern cuz like we we drafted the I should say we the Alex and the subcommittee drafted the language and so um it's it's sort of in like a semi-final format but we're you know I'm sure more changes could happen it's just that it's difficult to go back and edit out the as track changes um so just going to suggest that that might be a little better formatting wise to get people's comments on it um as a suggestion okay so use comments in set of track changes everyone I can I can transcribe that to comments and re resend that to you Erin would that be helpful yeah that'd be great actually because then I can I can recirculate um Rachel's comments to the whole board so everybody has the most up-to-date copy maybe that makes sense great thank you I think it does sort of in yes very thoughtful comments Rachel and I think it inspires greater and in more depth thought about you know what we already have and so that's always a springboard for more discussion go ahead Jason do we have any idea how um often these rules are actually enforced yes um infrequently so so if that's the case then we're looking at we have a subcommittee that's looking at rules to make changes to rules for rules that are Loosely and infrequently enforced there is a can I can I comment on that go ahead yeah so um part of the reason for this so this process the the Land Management policy editing started about two years ago um this was like when we had sort of the old configuration of the board it started quite a while ago um and and part of the reason for this um is because there was so many variations kicking around town of rules and regulations like there's like probably five different web pages on the town of armmer um website for different rules and regulation versions over the years and the whole purpose of this was to consolidate everything and sort of get it into a final format and and part of why it's been difficult to enforce is because there's been all these different versions of rules and when somebody calls to complain the police or dog officers like well which rules are we enforcing because nothing's posted there's all these different versions and variations posted about and like we're not really sure what the rules are so so part of the whole point of this is to get a final complete and succinct version and eliminate all those old outdated versions so that we have like a um a solid enforcable um policy and regulation to to use in in the field that everybody can um follow in the field meaning on conservation land correct yeah and not on like Town property right it's just Town someone lets the dog run around off leash down at the Town common yeah that's not under the care C of the Conservation Commission okay so the rule for the town is dogs must be on leash rule for conservation areas is there's an exception which is ameus Brook and there's lower Mill for those designated times there's an animal control officer which is mostly I think right Ain the enforcer of the animal variance of rules and that has been the extent of enforcement of any of these rules on conservation lands the the biggest issues you know I know that it starts with the commercial but in reality like what are we really looking at as the biggest issues dogs off leash people not picking up after their dogs yeah okay so I'm gonna just step back with big picture then um so I did send out that uh that literature review today which is a overview of the some issues on conservation lands and they're mostly to do with conservation values I would say the big picture is that as we discussed there's more conflicts where people people more dogs and there's um clear communication from residents that having confrontations with off Le dogs on conservation lands is problematic and this is not new it's just a continuing problem and maybe exacerbated by like recent just number of dog ownerships and number of users on land so one of the you know additional factors of having more dogs more people but mostly more dogs on land and more offleash dogs is impacts to conservation lands so to just quickly overview that again the purpose of the conservation lands is for conservation values dogs on lands have big impacts to conservation values dogs off leash have even way bigger conservation impacts to conservation lands so we are not here discussing whether or not to allow dogs on conservation lands it's just to rein in the impacts on conservation lands um by offleash dogs and also make places feel more safe and accessible for other users that have confrontations and issues or avoidance with offleash dogs so we're trying to make conservation lands accessible for all residents and trying to balance the use of dogs with conservation values that they were set aside for did I do an okay job at describing that say when Ain go ahead Alex just as a matter of background for the commission it is state law that dogs must be on a leash dogs have always been an issue since colonial times because they kill livestock and all that kind of stuff there's no law about cats but there is a state law that dogs must be on a leash unless the adality provides uh uh an area where they can be offleash there is that possibility so Amis does not outside the law by providing off leash hours at certain conservation lands um and that's a bit of background that you haven't been handed yet also the the committee and it was agreed uh that the chair would tell you that we want to vote on the uh policies that are before you at the next conservation meeting I don't think that's come up yet in this conversation so that's driving part of this conversation and [Music] um also with regard to um with regard to conservation land it's not a refuge conservation land is not a wildlife refuge it's full of multiple use and people are very much part of that zone of influence around every Trail is heavily influenced by human beings and dogs um people walk around with loud voices and they affect animals um and dogs running around off leash uh affect things but the biggest in the biggest problem that we're trying to get a handle on is a balance between the town's inability to enforce these rules and trying to come up with something that where people feel included but there are limits and enforcements a huge issue the town has enforcement problems if if a ticket is issued it doesn't it doesn't wind up being usually successful in court and so the town is often reluctant to um have a heavy hand we have conflicts with dogs on leash off leash making unwelcome contact with people particularly children um we have conflicts between dogs where fights occur um the town's not responsible for injuries caused by dogs and but there's there's this balancing trying to take place and writing these rules um so that we admit that there is multiple use admit that we have an Enforcement issue and try and come up with something that we can post on the website uh along Trails particularly Trail heads and um on that memo that I wrote there are several suggestions administrative type suggestions which the subcommittee came up with we went through quite an exercise to try and uh suggest to Dave administrative things that the town can do to amarate some of these issues Beyond simply posting rules so we've done some pretty hard work on trying to come at this in a way that where these conflicts can be managed and reduced if not avoided um and that's that's a tough job so what what Michelle has been talking about is very real the issue before us is what to do about it and that's what the subcommittee has been trying to do and that's what's summarized in the memo and it it can't be summarized in the rules that's why we wrote the memo so it's good to get your feedback um I don't think there's going to be any right answer there's just going to be the best we can do thanks Alex B said Jason it seems like if that all that Alice just said you know the town's not responsible for for it's not incumbent upon the town or the Conservation Commission or conservation lands to appease people and allow them to walk you know we don't have it seems that that's a it's not our role to like make sure people have a place where their dogs can run off leash and if dogs are really causing this much harm to conservation areas and the only real conservation areas where dogs are allowed off leash are at amethyst Brook and uh mil what is it the mil River mil River Park yeah between you know sunup and 10: a.m. you know it just seems like that ought to be the gold standard like you can't have your dog off leash and you have to pick up after your dog and we don't allow commercial Enterprises used on conservation land I think that that's I don't without but without enforcement none of this really matters you can make all the rules you want but if no one enforces it the rules don't matter so so you you concur with the rules as written though yeah okay I suppose what I don't concur with necessarily is taking a whole lot of time to discuss rules that seem to not be enforced and are just like the only place where dogs really are allowed off leash in town on public land is amethyst broken Mill River Park well they they are enforced by the dog by the Animal control officer and there are fines and there are repercussions and those are built into the rules one of them was um an exclusion from the conservation areas so de facto enforcement and you know is maybe different and one of Alex the things Alex was talking about was ways that we've been discussing to um increase enforceability of these rules uh go ahead Al Andre Andre is first yeah Andre uh well uh you just provided a perfect opening uh for for me I was going to ask um if the Animal control officer has been consulted in the during the uh uh during the time that uh you were putting this together because uh like you were saying and like uh Jason was saying everything has to be enforced and it has to be enforceable um and maybe they uh would have a suggestion or some suggestions on uh A enforceability and B uh I don't know um whether something would work or not or whether they would whether it's something that they would actually uh you know want to enforce and so on um so a just a an observation there um I'll leave that yeah uh good point um we I guess we've been relying on Dave to be sort of the liaz on for reporting on the Animal control officer but um as you say it maybe it would be good to have a conversation with her specifically if they have it and um there was another thing I was GNA say um all right it we'll get to it go Alex yeah I'll I'll address the Animal control officer second um one of the things that we've talked about in the subcommittee is a change in people's entitlement sense of entitlement and Dave told us about an incident where he went out somebody had their dog off leash and Dave told them who he was officially told them what the rule was was asked them to put their dog on their leash and they blew him off and just continued on there was nothing Dave could do so we have this change in people's entitlement um um which is tough to deal with and um and that rolls right into the inability ility to enforce some of these Michelle says it's enforcable but um it's it's it's very tough um so how to build rules that's are reasonable to anybody sense of propriety um and to even bend a little bit to so that they can see themselves being provided for uh in the rules if they want to have the dog off leash and maybe we should do that at other places where we have some conflicts to make the RO the leash law more enforcable by giving people a period of time when they can have their dog off leash I don't know um just trying to be creative and think out of the box with regard to the Animal control officer I didn't contact her on as we were drafting that it's something yet to be done but Aaron reported to us that she mitigates complaints she'll show up and be nice and try and smooth things out and it doesn't get reported and what so what's wanted there in the rules is that um uh that she will as part of her job as part of her job performance keep a record that's available to the administrative staff at um of amest and consequently to the commission so we can see where the hotspots are I don't know what we do with that data but right now we don't have a way to track incidences and um and to see Trends or even to identify where on the 2,000 acres that we've got in the 80 miles of trails are is most of this occurring and so that recordkeeping that's in there is a is a request to get a handle on on a better handle on on dog issues so it's as Michelle alluded this the there were hearings public hearings that were extremely tense with people on both sides that wanted less rules and other people that didn't want dogs on conservation land and um Dave was part of that and and the rules that we started with came out of that conflict and we've tried to modify them to to address some of the things that have come up since like Dave was it was reported to Dave that a woman was coming down from Brattleboro who's a paid dog walker to use amr's trails to walk those dogs and bring them back to to to to bradle and and he didn't like that a bit um so um that was one of the motivations behind putting it in the rules that there won't be commercial use dog use on the land and that fits with the other prohibition of commercial use on conservation land maybe we can bend a little bit to allow for the little old lady who would like to have her dogs get some exercise and this doesn't go into at all the discussion about the fact that being able to run around and burn off some energy is very healthy for dogs and it keeps them from going neotic um that's but but that's not a we get into a whole discussion about that's not the purpose of conservation land but it is part and parcel of the discussion so it's we've spent a lot of time on this in the committee and what you've got in front of us in front of you is the best we can come up with to date and it was decided to put put it out in front of you for your comments Rachel so far is the only one who commented so if you want to look at it and provide us some comments we'll take it back to the subcommittee and and do what we can with it and bring it back to you it it may not be ripe for a vote at your next meeting what you'll have in front of you is the conservation I the agricultural policy I had hoped to put the forest management M policy in front of you tonight for your review that was held back at Michelle's request so that we could rethink carbon credits so we're going to have a discussion at our next subcommittee meeting on the forest management Pro uh policy a narrow discussion about carbon credits and we may invite a previous commissioner in to talk about it who fairly knowledgeable and Michelle has provided some literature which will con so unfortunately these kinds of things eat up a lot of time and I'm very concerned about making our goal of getting all the policies done by the end of the calendar year so yeah there's some pressure to move this along and um and yet um allow you folks time to think about it because it's going to come back to you for a vote and what we don't what I don't want is to have this kind of discussion at the end of the calendar year and I have to come back and ask for another extension I'd rather have you considered piece by piece and vote on each piece as we go along and have these discussions as warranted thanks Alex um so to piggy back on Alex's first section of that um the subcommittee has done site visits and come up with um I think some great ideas about enforceability or to sort of sway public um sentiment or comp um compliance um a lot of that has to do with signage and sort of changing the atmosphere of um acceptability for just taking your dog off leash during on leash hours things like that and I don't think they're Incorporated in these rules but just to let you know that we have a good sort of list of ideas that we've um talked about that I think I think are really implementable and toteal and so just to address your concern Jason about enforceability like yes these are the rules and we have a sort of separate list of ideas based on our site visits that we think will help to Support Compliance if not enforceability um secondarily Alex I wonder if maybe the subcommittee's role could be to come up with um our sections and then we are done with it and then they're on to the next stage which is the full commission and so um if we're done by we can finish our sections by uh December but then the rest of it is sitting in full commission we can talk about that later but just different methods understanding that people's um time commitments are different on the commission and um some things elicit more discussion than others maybe we can just think about other ways to approach approach um finishing up sections within our time frame go ahead Andre um Alex mentioned earlier uh the how the how the um ACO Animal control officer is um enforcing uh the uh laws and um I'm wondering if uh the if there is a record of how much uh Alex you alluded to it but uh is there a record of how many violations have been uh issued over the last uh you know year by year over the last several years and how many warnings and so on or is there no record of that whatsoever or have we resp sorry I didn't hear you Aon do you want to take yeah go ahead Ain um I don't have any records I'm not sure if Dave has any records um from what and again you know I don't want to talk out of turn because I don't really know um how what goes on but I guess um anecdotally I've heard that um a lot of like say let's say somebody calls with a complaint that a lot of um the task of the animal control officer is to come and sort of mediate the complaint and that sometimes the complaint is mediated and at the end of the you know the visit there's no um you know ticket issued or any citation or anything and so as a result it's just like a call and so there's no um sort of log of what's happening but I think part of you know one of the things the committee had discussed when we were out on our site visit was having a reporting form so that if there was a call for a u some type of issue that we'd have a form that would be filled out in return to us and that way we would have some log even if it was a the issue was resolved there'd be some log that would basically document you know what was reported how was the what was the outcome that was achieved at the end of the visit and kind of give us a sense so we could start tracking it a little bit more um again you know I think that the idea of of potentially sharing this with the um Animal Control Officers a really great idea and I think um maybe having a a conversation with her to see you know there may be stuff that that we don't know and it's really just because like my job doesn't intersect with her job we don't really you know that and and I think Dave might know more because he might intersect with her more but um you know there may be ways that we can connect um or just document what's going on yeah I think there could be a simple log with something uh you know a type of complaint whether it's a dog dog bite or a uh some you know or just loose dogs and then whether it's been um substantiated and then whether it was a warning or a uh or a or a violation notice meaning a yeah it's a good point Andre and we specifically talked about that on our site visit and that was one of the things I was talking about um our ideas for trying to start having more um tracking and culpability for this but is my understanding that there is no tracking currently and that it's all handled very uh Case by case and um there's no record of things happening so we specifically talked about like Aon said having some kind of uh recordkeeping basis that we can start keeping track of it so um I'm thinking Alex hearing some feedback that maybe we should sort of collate our ideas that we came up with for specifically uh dog regulations when we were on Wentworth like um we came up with like a uh having a forum on the kiosk like did an incident happen then call this number use this QR code whatever so we we have a very good list of ideas and I think that they're worth sharing with you so I think maybe in conjunction with reading the memo the rules we're going to provide our ideas for how to make this all work and um then you can read it all together but I think really importantly is that everybody takes the um you know intent of this discussion back and uh you know looks at Rachel's comments looks at the looks at what we have so far and provide some feedback um because ultimately we do need to vote on these things to get this done with go ahead Alex I just want to come back to the Animal control officer she works for the police department doesn't work for Dave so administratively in order to put something in her performance standards to cause her to do this reporting it's either you know modify her performance standards and make it part of her job that she gets graded on or it's out of the kindness of her heart or a combination of the two da is very good at relationships and I think the first the first order of business would be a phone call from Dave to her saying can we work something out rather than going to the police department and trying to muscle some changing her performance standards it's always better to do something by agreement and then give her the benefit of of giving her credit by changing her performance standards but there is there is not a readymade Avenue for communication just because of administrative where where she fits in town so um that's an issue and we just have to work with it sucks Jason yeah I think that these rules are good and you know I mentioned enforcement before can we as a Conservation Commission ask the Animal control officer to potentially do something like visit some of the conservation lands where there are issues and like go there on a rotating basis like once a month go to one place one one you know Parkland or some or trail head and sit there and just literally hand out some paper warning saying hey you're not allowed to have your dog off leash I'm the Animal control officer these are warnings for now but please just be informed that enforcement is going to step up and like just have some sort of like presence as opposed to just you know a sign I mean I go to a trail head with my dogs and my kids I'm not like hey let's stop to read this sign you know uh we just go and generally I'm either like somebody's running ahead you know like it's not like uh whatever information is on that sign is not necessarily being read by everybody using walking past that sign right so having the presence and and having that person who is actually responsible for enforcing these rules just being out there and showing up once in a while and saying hey here's a here's a paper warning and then at the very least you can say here I I went to the field with a hundred of these printed flyers and I came back with 12 so I gave out that many today and then eventually like okay well now it's time to stop doing the warnings and start handing out tickets can we request that of that person thanks Jason um we specifically talked about both those things funny enough and Alex um has some great ideas for signage and uh visibility signage um and we talked about having maybe like trail dosent and I think that was a Bruce idea where I think that the capacity of the animal control officer maybe doesn't fit with that um additional um responsibility but we talked about having like even developing a trail commission and maybe part of their responsibilities could be volunteer Trails sort of dosent and things like that um and again that's why I want to give these great ideas that we came up with to you guys to to review to see how these could be implementable but yeah we're all on the same page I just want to say with the trail dosen thing like Alex brought up the entitlement of people like I'm going to use the parlance of our term having some uh times having somebody out there that's perceived as some Karen that just wants to tell everybody else what to do that has no official capacity to actually do anything about it it may not have the desired effect the person who is actually able to enforce the rules should at the very least be visible at some time like I've lived in town for three years and I don't I I couldn't tell you who the Animal control officer is and I've certainly never seen that person at any one of the conservation lands and we go to them often so you know but I've had you know but you have some random person be like hey you know you're not allowed to do that and it's like oh okay sorry you know like I don't I don't do that I don't have my dog off leash on conservation lands but I see plenty of them off leash all the time there so I just don't know I you know and and then it can you're potentially introducing like people being disrespectful you know to that dosent and um that's I don't I don't want to necessarily be advocating to put people in that position I agree Jason I specifically would not ever do that but uh Alex had success in his oneoff um go ahead Andre and I I just do want to just be mindful of the time here and and like our purpose which is probably that we've opened a cam of worms which everybody knew that this was going to be and I think that we all are going to go back and and provide some thought ful comments um and I don't think that any of our other sections will even be close to this complicated really but I see your hand Aaron go ahead um oh Andre Okay Jason I I like your ideas um I I'm I just wanted to point out a couple things I I you know although the uh what it says in the um in the draft policy uh is that the ACO enforces ammer dog regula uh regulation uh APD the ammer police do as well and they also enforce they don't enforce any of the dog regulations I think they leave it to the dog officer well I think you'd find that uh that the that they that the police uh can too and they also would uh be able to enforce the uh the conservation uh some of the conservation stuff right I don't know you can't get them to pull over somebody with only one headlight yeah I think uh uh realistically their priorities probably aren't going to be responding to an offish dog no but if you call them they will really okay you call well then they have to well they they be put on their list of things to right in other words it' be you know someone would get a call would get dispatched out there um and I thought that our uh that the um conservation land manager and the assistant conservation land manager also have the ability to issue tickets is that right eron I haven't heard that um that's a really interesting question though Andre and I'll look into that um I did interview for that job at one at one point oh okay so listed as part of the uh as part of the uh uh responsib duties and responsibilities so at least for the uh assistant U huh conservation land uh manager so um interesting just just to me I'm mentioning these things not to say that uh let's use these folks but to say that there is there are more folks who can uh enforce who can kind of be a part of this uh Team if you would and they are people that we can ask to do things uh such as a quick operation where you show up uh for a half hour and and uh educate the public um Jason's idea of uh of slowly introducing the uh laws and uh and the enforcement of it I think is is your spot on Jason that's the way to do it but anyway that's that's why I'm bringing that up and I think that we uh you know the more ideas we come up with like that the uh clearer picture we we're going to end up with yeah good idea s thanks uh Alex it's um in either what's before you or in the write up for the Wentworth site visit I have the number for the police department and um I actually called the number because it it had a funny name it's it's telephone I don't I don't know what the what it's called like it's a three-word thing anyways I said to them is there a reason you're called this like a Dispatch Center says yeah phone calls come in here for the police department the fire Department the EMT ambulance and dog warden and I have to figure out who to send the call to so this isn't just the police department and I said so if a call comes in with regard to dogs what do you do with it she says I send it to the to the to Carol so that's what they do and that was my homework in trying to track that down just because of of what what that position is called and it isn't just the police department even though it's in my phone is the am police department and the other thing about Carol is without getting personal she has mobility issues so she might be able to stand at the trail head but you're not going to find her traing down um a trail for a mile or two she would probably um she might if had to but she has mobility issues and so um as I said she might be able to show up at a trail head but um that's a I don't want to get into that personal stuff so this has been a good conversation uh now you know kind of what's been going on the kinds of things that's been happening in the subcommittee meeting as we were limited to one hour in order to accommodate people's work schedules and um uh it's amazing how how how much time some of these issues take to try and figure out a way forward so we can improve on what you've got but what you've got now is the best we've been able to come up with uh in the hours that we've spent on it and with regard to enforceability the same enforceability issues will exist for every single policy that comes in front of you absolutely true um probably this one will try you know frequency of Need for enforceability is probably going to be highest of this of anything else obviously um and you know we had we didn't start from ground zero on this one we inherited rules and we fine-tuned them and we developed them and we sort of brought them up to speed so um we are basing this on you know prior knowledge and experience of other commiss and other directors and with Dave also so I think um I'd like to wrap this up um and now you've all been introduced to the complexity of some of the issues that the subcommittee has been dealing with and um we greatly appreciate just you know your comments on the documents and um this has sort of been our first try at bringing it forth to you and again I'll say it again this is probably going to be the most complicated so might as well start there um possibly I don't know Alex help me think about some dates some uh Target dates for receiving comments so that we have time to incorporate them on our schedule like uh and maybe Commissioners chime in with what your reasonable turnaround could be I guess Andre and Jason specifically oh you want me to go first sure so the the objective has been to put put at least one issue one policy issue in front of the commission each meeting and give you opportunity to comment and then it Go the com and we set a deadline for the comments goes back into committee we deal with the comments Rachel gave us good comments for example on the agricultural uh policy she also gave us good comments on the dog policy Rachel so far is the only one who's been commenting and we would like to hear from others if you care um if you if you're going to be silent we assume you have no comment because when it comes up for a vote I would like to say that you've had time to comment and now it's just time to vote rather than holding a big discussion just because there's a vote um that said there needs to be some I don't know how to gauge whether or not there is should be discussion by the board the Conservation Commission on each policy before they vote I guess it would be like a hearing where it the policy comes up there's opportunity for discussion and then there's a motion for a vote I guess that that is our norm and maybe that's the best way to do it but if if the discussion results in the then going back to the committee okay so be it and we would hope that we would have a good enough policy in front of you that it would pass and um so in terms of a schedule I I had planned and was going to give you uh another policy tonight that could pull back at the last minute and um so I'd like to go back to that and you put up a deadline and then schedule a vote for every concom meeting from now to the end of the calendar year on the on the policies that are in front of you for which you all have commented and I would Michelle said we'll figure out what to do with it after this committee folds at the end of the calendar year and then it's in front of the commission I'm hoping I've been working on this policy since I joined the commission that was two years ago and it's time to put it to bed and I'm hoping that the work of the subcommittee results in that and then it doesn't come on and have another life we got other things to do okay I mean that's really dependent on everyone doing their homework and being ready to vote so I can't pull teeth on that one uh Bruce go ahead you're pered Rachel uh just a procedural question it sounds like there was a lot of there was a lot of public comment um previously in public meetings um would we have to have public comment for this um discussion and review well so it'll it's put on the agenda um and then there's public comment which we haven't gotten to yet so it's posted publicly and the public are welcome to come comment on it I don't think we're going to be like advertising I don't I don't know how it got so um popular last time but um we're not doing anything under the rug go ahead Ain so under state law um when you're passing rules and regulations for conservation land you have to hold a public hearing so the idea would be let's get it as refined as possible and then once we have a document to present we do a public we would post a legal ad um and put a notice in the paper and put it on the agenda to to dedicate uh time on the agenda to take public comment if people show up for it um and then presumably you know depending on how much attention it Garners or people you know comments and and so forth you know we might finish it in one hearing or it might take multiple to take take comment and and refine it or whatever the case at the commission's discretion how much time is it uh is it out for public comment I mean um so in order to like I think that's it depends um so for the open space and Recreation plan we posted stuff we created a little website um and then we provided a link to the website on you know our advertisements that we put on the town website but you know I would suspect something something similar to that I wouldn't want to you know post it everywhere like you know I would want to just do our standard legal process for it um and maybe have a website with links and maybe some background um information on how how this document was developed um just so that people aren't um coming in not knowing what the backstory was for developing all this okay Michelle there's some weird sound here let me mute and unmute um there uh you had asked uh earlier when we could um review and provide comments back um next Wednesday or next uh or c next Friday for me depending on what we agree the 20th Andre yeah okay uh that's uh 20th would be what uh the Friday yes yeah yeah either or Wednesday or Friday doesn't matter okay thanks Andre and and to keep in mind that we're going to start peppering you with other sections of this um so maybe get on a SCH Jason go ahead yeah I just wanted to clarify you kind of what Andre just said with or what you just said with schedule are you talking about specifically our schedule for the the dog because I feel like I've made my comments tonight um are you still looking for written comments to the dog policy or are you talking about future policies that come before us okay good question so it's good to know that we've received your comments tonight so will not expect anything else from you and if um Andre you want to give additional comments we'll look for that I think timeline for um other sections um Alex you probably do you want to chime in on that one I'm not sure what I was chiming in and I was gonna oh I I guess trying to give some yeah guidance for General scheduling of when comments are expected back yeah I gu I have a comment on that go ahead and I also um just want to say to Jason I didn't take any notes when you were speaking so I um I don't recall I'll put them in the notes okay I can summarize for you if you want that would help uh I have no comment on the comments I have no comments on the written rules I think they're fine my comment is that enforcement is Paramount for any rules and nothing's going to change if there's no enforcement okay and then in terms of schedule Michelle the the comments need to come back to the subcommittee in time for it to consider those comments so the subcommittee meets in the week that the commission does not so um it won't meet the this week but it'll meet next week so if people were going to submit comments it would be nice to get them to Aaron by Friday or Sunday night I don't really care so long as we can get them um on Monday and Tuesday and and have time for us to consider them before we actually have a meeting uh which is on Tuesday at noon we meet 17th yeah so if you could have comments to Aaron either Friday or sometime over the weekend if you are so inclined she can get them to us on Monday sounds good go ahead Aaron just a reminder to Alex so if I'm gonna publish the um the agenda agenda for next Tuesday that I'll need it tomorrow before noon um yeah I I can do that awesome hi always forget because I'm so bogged down with meeting stuff and I just thought of it yeah so next Tuesday we're going to talk about the first thing we're going to talk about is Forest management and carbon credits and dedicate a certain amount of time for that and then we're coming back to um um I guess it's dogs Jason yeah I want to just make sure we're setting realistic expectations here so are you saying that so will a new policy let's just use this Forest management will come are these coming in our packets so it comes in the packet to us on like Tuesday or Thursday the week prior to a meeting you all are meeting that same week that we get our packets no after Aon puts out her packets typically well sometimes it's on Wednesday [Music] um and and sometimes we because of when we meet we don't get her uh something for the subcommittee folder in time for her to send it out or put it in by the time she sends you the link but we do get it in as soon as we can so you can read it before your commission meeting um it's a little tight for us to meet on Tuesday and get her something by Wednesday but we can we can do that well I'm just I'm I'm just want to know what the expectation is we get it in the packet we're you want comments back by that Friday the Friday that we receive the packet yeah well well I think what we've been doing is it comes in the packet we do a little introduction to it or just to notify you it's there and we need comments back by and usually give like a week or two on that set so there's like a lag time in between when you get it and when we won't we wouldn't give it to you Thursday and expect comments on the following Wednesday yeah and my personally when you send the packets out Aaron generally I don't look at them till that weekend right or like look at it browse through it very quick quickly one night during the week right just TimeWise when I have time to look at it so I want to make sure the expectation is not that we are responding by potentially that Friday that we receive the packet so we have like a week to respond I think you have a week and a half so week yeah all right okay okay that's just that's what I want to clarify so if I could just to restate what I think Jason is saying if you get um some policy in the packet for the following concom meeting we would like to have your comments on that policy by the Friday of the concom week so you're asking for within like three days two to three days well um I see Andre shaking his head but we we would need that comment for our meeting on Tuesday the following week seems tight yeah three days is not going to do it for me I'm not I'm I'm I can't do that me neither but the you know uh if you put it out um in the then then before your next meeting we would I could do that I think it's reasonable to put if we receive it in the packet that we have comments back to you by our next concom meeting which gives us roughly a week in a weekend yes yeah I mean so far the comment periods have been two weeks for each yeah I think we're get from the date of the meeting when we provide them to you there's been like a two week comment period so the end of the calendar year isn't that far away and the number of times the concom meets so you wind up we may wind up doubling up the number of policies that you get um dogs is probably the most complicated in terms of controversy the EG policy is probably the most complicated in terms of length and detail the rest are pretty straightforward I think the forest management thing is a quarter of a page okay so how about the um week of concom meeting so everybody has a week including a weekend and then subcommittee has time to review comments and discuss it for the next meeting so Jason or Andre suggested that one does that work Alex I'm having a hard time with a calendar in my head yeah um I mean sounds like there would be a lag there would be a lag but it would provide us time to at least all us also time to review comments which which is also a thing um so long so long as we got policies going to the commission every time it meets we will roll out all there is and get comments back and have a vote on all of that I I think by the end of the calendar year and that's theal let's make that the goal that's the goal is to not is to get it all done and not ask for an extension i' like I'd like to be done with this thing it takes a lot of time sure does um okay so I think that's going to be our our goal here is to give you guys something in your packet every week and please review it and give us comments and if the comments are I have no comment that it that's also informative at least we know you read it and you're on board and you know what we're talking about um and then we will double up the easy ones and we're going to be done with this by the end of 2024 how about that yeah if I could just add a little layer of complication so the commission knows when I started working on this when I first came on Aaron said we're all reviewing this please go through the document which was just rules just rules and review it and oh by the way there's a big rush so I rushed to get through it and I was perhaps one of the last ones to go through it Michelle went through it the June before I came on the board and SE in and um then it sat for like three or four months while Dave looked at it and he wanted to be last and then we formed this committee and at first we thought oh our job is to Simply go through and polish up the rules Dave wanted something like a management plan so that he could refer to it on what he's supposed to do now we had to separate what's policy and stay away from administrative stuff and yet he wanted to to us to produce something like a Land Management plan which we have not done but that's what he wanted and and we're we're not going to we're not going to get there but uh for example um what lands are we managing for uh grassland species and and what are we supposed to do there and um all that kind of stuff and um so our job got a little bit more complicated when Dave joined the subcommittee meetings he's not a Committee Member he's not a commissioner but he has a wealth of knowledge uh to offer which has been very useful and he has a plan in his head on where he wants to go and he wanted this document to sort of evolve into a document that he could point to on why he's doing something and unfortunately I think he's a little frustrated because we're we're that's that's we we're not drafting a Land Management plan and um maybe someday that'll happen but uh not in this iteration so we got this thing that you'll see and part of it starting with dogs where we've got the rules then we got this memo where we suggest administrative things that might be helpful and that kind of a memo may come with the other policies and the other thing that we realized is that the policy is kind of hge bodge and you wonder well what how's this going to get used and Aon would say well we want to rip out of the policy document and stick it up on kiosks well then it needs some heading like Rachel pointed out to explain what it is and that kind of stuff that's a different kind of a document so it wasn't quite clear what this document what the policy thing is supposed to look like a lot of that depends on the uses and some of that's still not ironed out so we're going forward with strictly policy and right now what we've got is this memo from the commission to Dave outlining administrative steps that might be helpful in administering the policy that's kind of where we're at thanks for the background Alex it was a good explanation of the complexity and evolution of this so everybody when we give you something just know where it's coming from um public comment if there's any comment please raise your hand and I'm gonna keep an eye in the room Bruce go ahead I move that we adjourn thank you Bruce um I'm seeing no hands in the room second all right we have Bruce on the motion Andre on the second Jason I Andre I Alex I and I want to thank everybody for hanging in there on this discussion and participating and giving us feedback it is very valuable Bruce hi Rachel hi and I'm an i yes thank you everybody for your time tonight good night all all right good night good night good night everybody