##VIDEO ID:6SL_7e0xNR8## uh good morning everyone this is uh I'm calling the meeting of the finance committee to order on THS on Friday November 15th um this will be a remote meeting um no in-person uh public access to this meeting but members of the public May attend virtually via Zoom or by phone and we make every effort to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to uh sit in on these meetings um because we are meeting remotely I want to go around the room and just make sure everyone can hear me and can be heard uh councelor hanii president Andy president uh Kathy I'm here Alicia here Bernie present and Tom present okay that's good we're all here uh everyone uh is uh available to us or we can hear everyone so I'm going to start uh with public comment if there's anyone in the audience who wishes to make a public comment please uh raise your hand okay I I see uh Deb Leonard and Maria copi anyone else up Arley okay so uh I think we can uh we can go for three minutes on public comment so uh you want to bring U Deb Leonard in for the for a comment hi good morning good morning um if you folks are planning on voting on the uh the recommendation for the supplemental budget approach ration requests um I would like to provide a context of um considering delaying those recommendations until after the public forum on those recommendations I know that's not past practice but you're um dealing with a large amount of surplus and the public has not had much of an opportunity to wrap their minds around that I believe that was first made available uh uh M two weeks ago on in the in the packet so I would strongly urge you especially given the context of the conversations revolving a relatively small amount of money compared to the the Surplus um for the uh Regional school committee request um and and the conversation around the availability of those funds I I think there's a bit of a mismatch that I would like to see uh resolved better in public before these Appropriations were made or at least recommended and and made thank you very much okay thank you thank you Deb uh Maria uh would you bring me Maria into the meeting please go ahead Maria thank you Maria Kiki South ammer so since this committee and indeed nobody the Town Council has publicly discussed anything about the Jones Library building project since earlier this year uh when there was a vote that just barely failed to uh not allow this project to continue um and that was at a time when this committee and the Town Council had not been made aware of the loss of $2 million of historic tax credits I don't know what you guys are aware of honestly but here's a piece of information the Massachusetts historic commission wrote a letter on November 1st that notified the town that it had not been invited to the listening session about the section 106 process they were not notified of the time and place of that meeting and therefore they couldn't attend uh they also noted in that uh letter that they required alternatives to what was presented out of that section 106 process a lot hasn't been discussed besides that there has not been a discussion of the impact on The Debt Service the cash flow analysis which is kind of ridiculous at this point uh given that the $2 million that the library was supposed to hand over in January of this year is now going to be followed by $4 million that was to be handed over in January of next year um and what the impact of all this is um the capital camp pain of the library trustees have ceased providing information on uh expenses for Fund Raising and it's impossible to get any records of what they have allegedly raised and spent uh for several months now uh you guys have to stop abdicating your responsibility the finance committee has a charge to advise the Town Council and the town on financial matters and the financial health of the town to review and rem recommend uh make recommendations on borrowing in debt and you haven't had a meeting you haven't produ you haven't gotten this information you you had a meeting a couple months ago where there was excuse me where there was a ridiculous uh there was no information uh and the town manager the OPM and not in the library people didn't even attend your meeting and then you had another meeting which was then cancelled so I would like to know when and if the finance committee is intending to do your job thank you thank you for your comment I just want to note that Matt has joined us Matt uh can you hear us hi Bob yeah I can hear you can you hear me yes thank you okay thanks uh one more commenter Arley could you bring Arley in please go ahead um hi good morning can you hear me yes um it's I'm saying sort of the same thing as Maria but from a different angle I guess I keep reading or hearing a couple times now the town manager telling the Town Council now I know this isn't the council but there are counselors here that you know this is not your business um you know it's you don't have authority to be weighing in on this um and I don't really understand that because you know the town is giving onethird of the payment to pay for this project the mblc is also giving onethird and they seem to be able to freely give any opinions and advice that they want um and in fact are running the show but that saying he who pays the piper calls the tune you know the town is paying the piper you know it's it is within the finance committee the Town Council to be weighing in about what this project means in terms of the Financial Risk to the town um I I wish that you you know could step up and make a motion and take a vote and even if it you know in my preference you know would say enough already but even if it didn't we would know where counselors stand on these issues of if it goes over this um bid came in just a few $100,000 under the cost one change order and we're over who's paying for that these discussions need to be had among the Town Council the finance committee the public because the the F the financial sort of viability of this project feels very risky unstable and the Town Council seems to be being told just sit down and be be quiet you know and and then they turn around and say okay open your wallet now we need more money I think the Town Council has the right and the finance committee has the right to weigh in you're paying a lot of money we are please do so thank you thank you for your comment uh does anyone else in the audience uh wish to make a public comment I don't see any more hands um so I think I'll just close the public comment period Then and we'll move on to the next step in the agenda which is the bud budget guidelines and um we we have a lot to talk about with with respect to the budget guidelines um I would like to start with councelor hanii because she made an observation that uh perhaps we're not um were were were're not being fair to the the Regional Schools uh in terms of how we calculate um the how we do our build up our budgets and so councelor hanii if you want to just you know kind of present your your your findings or your opinions thank you sure but I did some more research and or more number figuring out in relation to this and and I've come up with different ideas um but I I had wrote um Paul and our finance director and copied Bob on it um because when I looked at our Revenue sheets and our expense sheets I was curious our expense sheets are split into um if you think of the Le the expenditure side it's split into operating budget capital budget uh miscellaneous and unappropriated uses um most unappropriated uses are direct offsets from something on the revenue side um the capital goes to support the debt exclusion and other ta not tax funded capital is also offset on a revenue side the rest of capital goes to help fund all four main um core function areas and that's I'll refer to the town elementary schools the regional schools and the Jon's Library as the four functional areas um and but then there was this miscellaneous section and I had looked at that and and was thinking and I think Kathy had touched on this at a council meeting a couple Council meetings go that the retirement system number of in the projection of 8.5 million and the opab don't are are numbers that are expenses on I think three of the four functional areas but again I I'm I'm unclear on this but it's definitely not an expense on the Regional School District because they have their own retirement system and retirement assessments and other post-employment benefits that they pay out of their own budget not our assessment and so I was curious um given the the percentage increase in that is 11% this year like is that when when we're pulling that out before we distribute the remaining revenues to the four um functional areas in the operating budgets is that does that mean given that that increase is well above 3% does that mean that that we are essentially um adding operating revenues to the non region budgets to help them weather that more than 3% increase that the region doesn't get help in weathering so that that's that's that was the email I wrote um and and did some calculations just with that and it seemed like that might be a 1% potential um benefit to the three operating functional areas that are not the region but then I started looking at the revenue side and there are revenues that as I said are directly offset um by things on the expense side but there are also revenues that really are revenues generated for Town only um expenses if you think of it that way um the Enterprise fund reimbursements go should are are meant to reimburse the Town Line of those four functional areas for Town um operations that are done in benefit for the Enterprise funds um but they go into this overall number the departmental revenue the licenses and permits um all go into are are all generated by Town not Regional or Elementary or even Library um numbers U but they go into the full number so yesterday I spent a lot of time and then there's all the state aid and there's offsets for state aid the special assessment number actually offsets state a um assessments uh with pvta assessments and all of that and so I did a lot of other sort of trying to figure out of the revenue side what is sort of attributable to various things and where should things come out with and what what money is left to distribute to the four functional areas and then as I got thinking I said well the region doesn't have its uh Chapter 70 money that's outside of the the four functional areas budgets because that's part of not the assessment so if you think of the four functional areas as being assessments well Chapter 70 within this revenue and Ugo within this Revenue are are outside of those operating budget lines on the expense side in theory if we're trying to keep treat the region and the school district the amoris district and the town and the libraries sort of equivalent um none of those numbers should go into Distributing the pot to the operating budget um long story short in what what I did and I'd love to hear Melissa's thoughts on some of this is I I and playing with all these numbers I determined that of the operating budget to the four areas 7 million of it is actually not covered by what I would call expenses that should be shared by all four areas and distributed to all four areas in fact 7 million of it is pulled and paid for out of our Chapter 70 and um AO basically state aid numbers that gets distributed amongst all four areas so in that sense yes there might be some Oddities here with how the expenditures and the revenues get distributed on but at the same time the region is actually benefiting from the state aid numbers that are coming in for the general government and the local elementary school in addition to the state aid they get so I don't know what to take away from that cuz it gets really complicated and I'm sure Melissa and Paul have some things but I I think we need to have a conversation outside of how we look at these numbers on what is the best way to to to figure out the increases on the operating side every year um but that those state aid numbers actually fully cover the um the what was called the the opan Retirement Systems the miscellaneous the state aid numbers are well higher than eight and a half million including the the town state aid number is over 10 million um so even if that is only for the town the town state aid number covers that completely um is another way to think about it and since the region state aid is outside of these four functional operating budgets areas if you think about the town state aid being outside of it the fact that it covers completely the miscellaneous line kind of makes a wash of what I had WR written to Melissa and Paul and Bob so do you do you want me to comment on that sure um so I I I appreciate all the work that you've done councelor heni and I you're right it is um complicated um and I think another thing that I'm not sure where you came up with your seven million but part of the part of the reason that we we design these things this way is it's you know this is um you know sort of um the like we're we're told we we're regulated by the state on how we uh attribute certain funds and so if you want to um I think that there was a conversation a few years ago about how we used to attribute some of the um expenses of the school directly to the school and then we were told by the state we couldn't do that anymore and specifically there are two very large assessments choice and char out that are required under Municipal guidelines to be included as part of the overall Town budget and town um you know when you when you look at schools so I I understand that the region has their own um choer choice and Charter out but we also have choice and Charter out for the elementary schools which is part of that overall um unappropriated expenses along with the uh also very large um Regional Transportation that that those are the drivers in that in that that un unappropriate Association so we don't report that as school um money it's part of the overall pot and it's netted from the the ugga and Chapter 70 and and then just and then the town and the school um pay that because we are in the state's mind one organization as as far as the elementary schools and in the town um so there are like and then you know there are the offsets which those are funds that look like revenue on the cherry sheet that go directly to the school and directly support their um budget but do are not shown as operating budget because they're put in a special Revenue um to supplement for a purpose uh School departments so it kind of all it it it was the most Fair way I think that the reason that we did it this way um you could certainly um it would I mean and we also report it that that way um because those are the categories under the municipal um accounting rules that we have to report funds so that's why we separated into those categories those categories are sort of dictated by Municipal Finance so we can certainly look at and you know you guys can make a determination about whether or not you want to more heavily weight one organization over another that's that's a decision for you all but I don't think that um I don't think that the mechanism that we're using is unfair or or or that we should change it I think if you want to make decisions about how you wait um certain organizations over the over another that is a that's a policy decision for this board uh Paul did you want to speak on this yes if I just if I can um just to build on Melissa so I think Mandy Joe's right if you look at it one of these things is not like the others right it's if we look at the Richard scary book um the um so this the Regional School District is like a town it's not like another department in the town town and it's treat it's looked at differently the funds that go to it are established by the um Regional agreement that the T that the four towns agree to um the region retains the state aid that it gets and so I think one of the questions you were saying is like why is it why is it the region the one sort of suffering it seems like I think one of the questions and I think the reason is that when we look at say a 3% increase for the budget we do a % increase on our contribution to the region the region gets half of its money from the state and that's flat so they are suffering because they're not getting an increase from the state that that supports half of their budget so a 4% increase from the town can translate to be less than that overall I think that's the case I mean I'm just just as we think this through so I think that that's it's it's a it's a and then we we look at why was this with this model we which we've been using for Andy would know it's you know decades I mean do we want to turn it around or do look at it differently I think that's a valuable conversation to have um because we look at this from a Town's perspective in terms of our town budget for all the entities that we have to meet and how do we support that um you're right that some of the re this these revenues are shared and some aren't um the school tends to retain its it's you know um if Charter Charter we all support the charter changes um the school in by itself does not absorb that um so I think that that's the the key thing here is that um when we think of the region I think it's easy to think about the the elementary school because it's it's all of a part of a piece with the rest the other uh two entities the region just a different animal Kathy so I I have two I'll try to stay on this topic but I want to open up another one and I'm also conscious we don't have that much time between now and when we need to have a draft guideline document um so I think changing a basic accounting system right now is complex and not worth it um because we've got a larger set of issues before us um so so the the you know if you look at what's going on with state aid it was one of the things I asked and then Melissa gave me the underlying data the state aid on one line which looks like a big receipt is being subtracted off by an assessment and if you take it just for education so state aid comes in in multiple pieces um I went back and our state education Aid is flat not flat for inflation but flat for a fiveyear period and really minimalistic and it's because of a big assessment for the charter schools and the charter school assessment is driven by whatever our schools spend on their kids our kids so if our costs go up in the per child thing the tuition goes up it's an automatic there is no control it doesn't reflect the costs of the charter schools themselves it's so when Northampton digs deeply into its reserves to put more money into schools more money goes to the Charter it's just a take the average and send it out so if you do that computation on what Paul just said about Regional if you do it for the region you get the same state aid is not keeping up with the costs and particularly not keeping up with the costs if you subtract out what's being taken away from the education piece that's coming from the state so we work really hard on getting more Chapter 70 money and then another hand is taking it away so I think that is all underneath all these budgets I think we still have to come up with budget guidelines and I I was coming into this meeting looking at the last document that we did a year ago and then Bob updated key pieces just the dates and and what we're talking about I'm prepared to to to talk about Not Giving equal increases this year to giving the schools something more and not giving less to the other two and trying to figure out where in our revenues and our expenses we have enough money to do that and still produce a balanced budget so that's what I would if we can get to that point what I'd like to talk about today because I think underneath the municipal Services when we say let's to be efficient look at departments that may not be working well there's some potential savings over several years OPB Andy you Mandy you flagged that's a policy decision we we can and have in the past send less um we're doing something unusual in what we do every year and so there are a few different places where I think um we could talk about that and then Bob the opening line and our guidelines has always been we accept the pro projections um of Revenue and when we look at fourth quarter and the last several years so we've got fourth quarter on this agenda we're low on projections of revenues consistently in a couple places and I just went back and looked um we're not even putting in the same excise tax revenue that we got three years ago less let alone what we got a year ago so I wanted wanted to talk about where are we being too conservative without without um causing Paul and Melissa and everyone who H is accountable we can't run a deficit uh pits in their stomachs um but where we can really see that we're low and we're low for a reason and we're being too conservative on the revenue side I don't think we're too conservative on the expense side with with one exception so so I don't know how to to ease our way into that because to come up with something more for the schools like something more than 3% um I need to know where we can say the revenue projection can with high confidence be higher so there's more money coming in um so that's I'll just stop right there because that's those are two big pieces it's a focus on those Revenue projections and what we just saw and the fourth quarter report and what I'm doing about fourth quarter that's a whole year and if you go back a year you can see the same things a year ago that we're we we've been consistently low on a couple lines on the revenue side um and so the last thing I just want to end with I did do Public Finance way back in some graduate thing and I believe that the public sector needs to be conservative on revenues which is means be a little lower than you hope for and conservative F expenses because we can't run a deficit but I think there's a point at which we might be particularly on revenues being too conservative so I'd like to move to that um although I know what Mandy is asking for is rethinking the way we present these budgets um so so that's where I was hoping we'd start on and I do want to just ask Bob we left open the discussion of voting on the recommended uses of some of the free cash um except for Mandy's wanting to somehow fund part of a charter commission out of this and then we were told by the town manager he's got enough money to to figure out what that is and to fund it we don't have to do it now and then I saw that uh TSO came up with they didn't think they needed that much on thrash hauler so I don't know whether we can move that off our plate and do a recommendation or whether we just want to wait for the hearing but I'd like to focus most of today's meeting on the guidelines in conjunction with the fourth quarter report and I'll stop there okay thank you uh councilor haniki so I want to clear up I'm not asking us to rethink How We Do budgeting in that sense um I was trying to answer some of my own questions in in doing it um to figure out were we short changing one over another and I've Come Away with all of that saying no I don't think we are with this method and how things are presented um but but yeah no I I want to focus on the guidelines too um Cathy's Focus I think is right um I think there's a couple of Revenue projections that that we could make recommendations on to be a little less conservative on um I noticed that our guidelines are don't talk talk about uh the Enterprise funds at all and I'd like to add a section in Enterprise funds um partially because the q4s for the Enterprise funds were concerning for me for one of them um so I'd like to talk about that too I also want to talk about these Financial these budget this B budget guideline document I would like to see shortened um not repetitive and actually clear on the quote recommendations we are making there are a lot I mean it's 14 pages of dense text much of which is not guidelines at all um much of which talks about past votes we've had that have nothing to do with the next year's budget um or past past things we've done that again don't have anything to do with the FY 26 budget so I actually took a hack to this and and got it down to seven pages um which is still a lot um and I'd like to see it go even farther and I'd like the ex executive summary to actually be a summary of our recommendations not a summary of I don't even know it's not it's it's sort of an amalgam of 20 different things I'd like to see some bullet points that say we recommend and I'm just because we haven't made these recommendations yet 10 and a half percent of the tax levy to go to Capital even even increases around the operating budget or whatever you know like that here are the six things we recommend we recommend that Revenue projections be a little less conservative in the these five areas or on these five lines or something like actually be very clear about what those recommendations are because when we go to review the budget I had to read 14 pages of dense text that I couldn't even figure out what really the recommendations to the manager were to see if he presented a budget that met those recommendations so we've got bullet points we can actually compare what he presents us later to what we recommended in our and gave him as guidelines here thank you I I actually agree we need to make the the um the report shorter and more to the point but Andy yeah I was uh just gonna follow up on what Kathy had said previously um I think we need to recognize also that there's an historical piece that goes year for year when you if you've been involved in this long enough for follow long enough and that is that we usually end up or we let me end up we usually start with projections that show a deficit there no exception if you look at this year's bottom line it's a $300,000 deficit and one of the things that we do is to recognize that Revenue has a lot of categories that um are really uncertain and we don't know what's going to happen during the year and some will come up more than others um that the revenue uh you can't predict with certainty which Revenue line is going to be the one that U May uh come in higher but we usually um take a deep breath and say every year the revenue um projections work out to um take care of the deficit and by may u we'll have better numbers and we're in a position to have a balanced budget um so you know that that is how we have um been able to start out a process showing a deficit but not end up having to adopt a budget that is a deficit so if we start out by cutting uh Revenue projections we may be putting oursel in a hole U by the time we are actually adopting a budget and that would not be sound okay thanks uh Athena did you want to lay in quick update because it was mentioned um and then I know it was it was mentioned at the last meeting too about the charter Review Committee um need for funds they talked about it last night they're going to put together a request that will go to the town manager once they have an idea of what they need and would like to do um they're still kind of figuring out their process and uh Bernie can talk about this a little bit too um what they think they'll need in terms of a consultant if they want to do any Printing and advertising and so forth so they're going to put together a budget and submit that to the town manager for an appropriation request so um I hope that's not uh we don't need anything from the council at this point and they are clear on how that request process works and um so so we don't need to consider that as part of these appropriation requests but thank you for thinking of it Kathy uh I just want to Echo my strong support of cutting the length of the document I started to mark it up the same way and last year we were really pressed for time because we had the rental bylaw we had four other things we were barely squeezing out stuff so we did the simplest thing and and I think shifting to I'm anyone who's been on other committies with me I love executive summaries that say something that if you stopped you would know what the main recommendations were and then you can read on um and pushing so Andy I don't know whether maybe I misspoke I was talking about increasing our Revenue projections not decreasing them um so yes I do not want to produce a deficit I want to really scrutinize those and I it I'm flagging this because there's a line in the current draft from Pat previous we just accept what we just saw a week ago and I think we should question a few of them and um so I'll leave there so I don't know how how to structure this conversation um because one of the things I had Bob asked for and I'm sure Melissa will get it to you I wanted to have the spreadsheet with the revenues in an Excel format and expenses in Excel so when I say something more for schools I wanted to make sure the math worked and I can't do it easily with what I have right now um so for us to even hone in on what she talking about and where is she getting money for the the last thing and I see Paul hand up so I'll probably be short I did want to open up the 10.5 for Capital um I looked at uh the capital plan for the next five years and I realized again last year this last year this calendar year F 2024 was unusual because we did not have a financial director and we were we were racing Bob was on the committee with me so we didn't really look hard at the next four years in the capital plan and some things got on to it that probably not of the highest urgency um and maybe other things never made it on um there's nothing so I just wanted to open up could we live with 10.3 you know I'm throwing out a number something lower if we really um look at this because way back back when when sha Magano came up with the 105 he quietly said by the way this will mean incredible stress on operating budgets unless the world changes as we know it and so I did want to reopen that in the context of the guidelines so it's I'm looking at the revenue projections an expense line and an expense line within the town operating budget where I think we could achieve some saving so that Municipal I think has some staffing shortages or some staffing wo I don't want to cut Municipal but I wanted to leave some flexibility there so there's one program that's not operating well and has a lot of vacancies and I wanted to discuss whether we could freeze it for a couple years at current Staffing so those are the pieces and I've mentioned them before I just want to make sure I get them on last time I tried to mention them Mandy said too early now I think is the right time thanks okay thanks KY uh Paul yeah so if I'm hearing what the sort of policy decision points that the finance committee is identifying one is to um well Kathy just mentioned a change in the percentage for Capital uh going from 10.5 to whatever percentage that you might think one is to um offer um the I think it's sort of two things one is offered maybe offering differ differing percentages to each of the entities um with the intent of giving more money to schools I think is what I heard Kathy say I don't know if it means all schools or Regional Schools or Elementary so I think that that's a decision Point are we going to move away from our traditional everybody gets the same percentage increase that's a policy discussion uh I think I've also heard you know the interest in looking at the projections and you know we and I just want to clarify that we look at the projections all year long um you know we learn more about state aid in January from from house one we learn more when waste and means comes out we adjust we adjust we adjust if we see something else coming in so those um projections um are pretty consistent I I think we're welcome we welcome if you if you identify some line items and say help us explain why you're making these projections we're we're happy to talk about that but I just want to be clear that um these things are not uh they're moving all the time um as we learn about uh Collections and uh you know different fees and things like that if if departments during the budget process say I'm going to increase fees in in certain areas we want to include that into it so there so that's a dis but I'm just want to identify that as discussion point and then the fourth thing I think I hear is uh Manny Joe wanting to have sort of a a separate discussion on on Enterprise funds and maybe that's part of this document or not so those I think there's sort of four things that are I can hear the finance committee talking about thank you Bernie yeah thank you um in terms of the uh Charter review it'll be a while before the committee comes up with a request for funds and it is quite likely to be modest so I'm not um I'm I'm we shouldn't be concerned about that um you know we have some resources from town departments that we we can employ and U we'll we we'll need to do much more homework than um uh than we have done so I wouldn't expect to see in the next month or so U requests from uh the charter commission um I'm welcome the idea of shortening this budget document uh in the past we've always sort of relied on this is is is uh being a document for a broader audience not just the uh uh three or four folks that the memo has adjusted addressed to um I I think uh abandoning that and cutting out a lot of the history a lot of the explanation and just coming up with a a briefer document and I agree that the executive summary should be just that executive summary of what we're recommended so I welcome that and I I wish that we had copies of the edits that have already been done by me uh councilor haniki and others would make it easier for us to if we had those in advance it make it easier for us to to go after this I think um I'm not uncomfortable with the fact that the town manages to run somewhere between four and six% in um uh free cash at the end of the year I remember back in the good old days where the Department of Revenue used to recommend five to 10% um I think we need to recognize that we have to be careful to make sure that uh we look at these uh in in terms of our in terms of our budgeting uh that one we're not running a foul of what Do's guidelines might be about this we um send in our reports to them uh and that's something that we'll have to rely on Melissa's expertise for um I am um I'm agnostic as to whether we continue with the same percentages for each of the four main components I think we should have some flexibility to do that from year to year given uh changes that the town faces I am uncomfortable with the fact that we don't have from um the schools a a reasonable projection of how they're going to reduce their expenditures because as it stands now from what we know there's a structural deficit there and it's not going to go away uh we're we're gonna hand hand some more money over and we've Band-Aid things uh maybe a little bit maybe a lot but it's the deficit that they're facing is not going to go away without some meaningful change on the part of the school administration uh I really want to I really think that's an important piece to have before we nail down any uh uh any any final decision on this um got to check my notes here because I'm wandering um we have some policy decisions you know in terms of capital uh do we want to put aside less than 10 and a half percent that's debatable uh do we want to contribute less to oped oped that's debatable um what's we also have to debate is what impact that might those decisions might have on our bond rating because we're going to be borrowing money uh for the school the library um who knows what else we're going to be going back into a situation where bonding mun bonds right now are are halo around mun bonds right now how long that Halo stays is beyond me but I'm willing to bet that in a year we'll be in a recession and in a year we'll see uh bonding cross go up so it's it's important for us to make sure we maintain our bond rating it's also important for us to move as rapidly as we can where we have to do borrowing to lock in those rates because they're not going down regardless of what's get said on the by the talking heads on the TV thanks councelor hanii yeah um I'll address some of my thoughts on some of the potential recommendations um I would like to at least for this year recommend even increases in operating budgets with a caveat um and that being that initially once the budget deficit is satisfied that instead of increasing that 3% to say three and a half if money comes in that we start with trying to make up the arpa money first into the Region's base that's how I would sort of recommend um I think Kathy's getting it a potential different percentage um there's been a lot of debate as to which the base should be for the region and so I think it's reasonable to say as a recommendation start by trying to increase the Region's base and then give everyone the same quote percentage increase um to try and make up that onetime arpa money I don't know how we'd word that in there um but but I could get behind supporting that as a differential in how I know the percentages would look different on the budget sheet but but that's how I would think about that on the capital percentage I don't want to decrease the capital percentage um and part of that is when I look at it and I look at where the capital is going to and I I listen to the conversations that the region school committee has been having on on everything I expect the regional Capital requests to increase in the next year or two and I don't want that I don't want us to have to pit that increase against our other Capital requests for non- region stuff and by decreasing capital from 10 and a half to something else um I worry that we would be pitting those against each other um and we know that the capital lines for the region have been large for a number of years in the out years um and could increase a lot and so I I look at the 10 and a half as not I know it I know it squeezes the operating side of the expenditure sheet but it is a it is helpful not just to all of the borrowing we're hoping to do on the municipal side including fire and DPW and all of our roads and all of our other infrastructure and and um equipment maintenance but it's also helped to allow us to say yes to the region and their upcoming Capital needs so I would be against decreasing that Capital percentage um local receipts Paul asked for some questions so what I noticed was other department Revenue has some significant Revenue in two unbudgeted lines in the quarter 4 state election reimbursement and the liability account maintenance should those be added into the lines I understand maybe state election reimbursement isn't every other year thing um but maybe we should add it in every other year um Cherry Hill greens fees were very high um they seem to be staying High have we built that into our Revenue departmental receipts budget projections the alcohol annual licenses seem to be fairly steady at 150k but we budget for 125k um can we logically increase that budgeting line slightly above 125k because we've got history at 150k um are some of them and then the ammer college seems to have increased its miscellaneous recurring Revenue um has seemed to be part of the increase in miscellaneous recurring Revenue um is that increase budgeted into the FY 26 budget it did not look like it was so those were some of the local receipt lines that I thought might be a little be able to be a little bit higher um I understand why interest has gone up a little bit in the budget but that we don't want it to go up as much as we might think it might be because some of that relates to the um the grants we've received and interest on that but also if rates ever do go down or wherever they might go or when we don't have those and start spending the capital stabilization the interest will go down and if we've increased it too high um we harm our budgets in the future so I get why I I support where it's gone and why it's not gone higher I think in our budget guidelines we should actually put um spend Surplus spending Revenue and a goal that four to 5% goal of surplus at the end of the year I think maybe we should just state in the budget and then say and when that comes in if it comes in we've already done that with reparation stabilization um opioid is not in here but um maybe we should put a section in the budget guidelines that says after the close out here's where we want you to put them so that everyone knows this is our goal for those closeout numbers and what our guidelines for those numbers are since we don't adopt guidelines till after we've gotten the close out um I would be okay slightly decreasing o OPB contributions um to gain some of that Revenue into the expenditure sides to put it somewhere else I guess in the expenditure side and then on Enterprise fund what I would like us to to put in the budget guidelines particularly um I was concerned with the sewer Enterprise fund that they had fy2 24 deficit and they did not contribute their entire amount of planned um budgeting to the Enterprise fund Revenue side um reimbursements into the town and so I want to make sure we put into our budget guidelines that our Enterprise funds fees and revenues should be set so that we know we will be able to meet our expenses there without any deficits there were a couple that had deficits some were expected some were not I was mostly concerned with the sewer Enterprise fund having larger deficits and going forward that maybe we have not set those rates appropriately and so I want that's what I'm looking for in terms of the Enterprise funds into these guidelines thanks thank you Kathy a Duo team here um okay so M Mandy Mandy went off went after some of the small Revenue lines it looks to me like excise is on the low side if I it's cars if I look at um and I'm looking at uh multiple years on this when you look at it we're not projecting even at the level of um 20 fy22 you know so if I go back we we're low all the way through we're quite a bit low the other one is investment income and I know it's hard to estimate that however if I take what we say is in general capitalization and what will be in capital stabilization funds and I do the simplest 4% on it we're low on the projection of that and we've been way under so that's a big that's been a big source of the Surplus um and you can see it in the fourth quarter and it was again last year so those are two big ticket items rather than Mandy mentioned and some of the smaller ones so it's hard to predict these but if four years in a row you're on the low side there's a point at which you unless we think there's a recession and I and I realize if if there's a recession people don't buy cars however you know at some point people have to buy cars so I think what we're seeing is they put off buying cars all the way through covid and the cars got old um and that's where so those are two places and I'm not saying go all the way up to the past but um the 4% I mean Bernie was you know how do we know where interest rates are going we're hoping that we'll get a municipal interest rate of 4% or less on a long-term Bond but I know you can get 4% right now even on some divid you from pretty conservative investment so that's just those are low and as we draw down on any of those funds I realize the base goes down so this isn't this isn't a way of uh securing 27 2829 so I know we have to think of whatever we do on the operating budget side we have to think that there's revenues three years down the road not just two years down the road so that's where I can't do those kinds of um adjustments um so Mandy's suggestion was once I think what I heard you say is once we're about half of the Year through and we have a better idea of where the current year is we could revisit some of the Assumption uh some of the projections um and uh it last year our midcourse correction is we didn't have to make a payment to pension and that's when we went up to the 4% um so to the extent interest uh health insurance miraculously came in at less than 13 um so so I agree with that way of doing it but make in our guidelines we could say say where we'd like that money to go rather than it just acrs to a surplus in the following year so so that's that was my thinking and M I am totally willing to get a rough draft that gets down to a shorter version with all the we recommend left blank you know if we can't get today to the we recommend parts and I'll stop any other discussion I'm not sure where we are but I don't think there's a a lot of agreement but I I do think that um we we should we should see if we can um I mean I just so everyone understands um the budget that the school the Regional School put together uh our assessment is twice what we have said we will increase is 6% rather than 3% um and that's like $550,000 so that's the amount that the school would like us to come up with um the Regional School would like us to come up with and I'm not sure that I've heard anywhere where we could come close to that I mean we could maybe get half half of that but we couldn't come close to $550,000 by you know adjusting assumptions basically um unless we want to really you know squeeze the budgets um Paul uh you know if we dropped our OPB con contribution what impact would that I mean how how much play do we have in the oped in order to maintain our bond rating it's it's it's one element of it right and we can dig out the bond rating but they do identify it you we also we always tout it we make our presentation to the to the standard employers that we have maintained this as a disciplinary me and it's just it's it's it's not uh I I don't know if there will lower us a ranking because of it but it's it just builds into our culture our financial competence I think is what what it does it's just another argument that we use including our staffing and our projections and being conservative and all those types of things I think a key thing for the council is like I mean some ways it's is this a revenue problem or an expenditure problem and I think we don't know you know I think there is not there aren't projections going out um you know I I just wonder if I came in with a 7% increase without I just need you would need you would ask for me for a lot of justification for what what that's what and why haven't you managed it before so I just want to make sure the playing field is level with the town departments and and also I just want to point out that the you know the arpa money that we put in last year was 355,000 and now the the ask is basically 555,000 so um it's going up it's not going down um and that worries me that you know using you know projections however we want to do it I just don't see how we have enough play in our budget to uh to get to that number without without you know making you know things very difficult um Council hanii yeah um so I think part of that 500,000 is because it includes the 300,000 we gave them last year um I think um so so that their ask is based on what we voted last year and what they actually received from us which is where that fight about what the quote base is but I do want to note um when I did my own spreadsheet on their their presentation and I assume they'll figure it out when they start doing it again their 4% increases um in scenario one were actually not well the their scenario one numbers were not 4% across the board and I think it was just a mistake um when they were trying to produce them up but um my spreadsheet showed that for let me see which one it was for Leverett it was only a 2% increase so there's there's they and and that fell across the whole board um where it was never corrected and I don't think any of the scenarios and so um those numbers may change and that scenario one included a potential um Surplus on their end um in terms of in Terms of a complete restructuring and I think we have to recognize that that the scenarios that they gave us were based on a restructuring that we don't know whether the school committee will do or not and we don't know how much of the structural issues that actually takes care of and that's something maybe we need to put into our guidelines um but that 500 and some thousand above our initial guidelines is partially because the arpa money is not there which is why I said I could potentially say at this point if we're not it that I want to keep our increases the same but maybe we can find a way to add that arpa one-time funding into their base at least minimally or some of it or something and then do increases above that if it's possible um but but I think there's a long way to go and we have to figure out what we want from all of the functional areas not just the manager functional areas in terms of information when budgets are presented too Kathy um I just wanted to say I was not talking about going all the way Bob I you know when I was looking at 3% I was talking about something more and and we haven't seen the elementary school yet um we just know it's out there in the distance um I thought last year that there was probably leeway um what Bernie had asked about some hard look at expenses and there was potentially some potential lowering of expenses but last year we didn't have to talk about elementary at all in the spring because they had Esser money so they are they are have a big hole in the budget going for forward so I I when I was saying school I was talking about both of them but I don't really know the Elementry side so at all so I am in a something more for schools than the flat three and Mandy just offered the put make sure it's on the base and it might already be on the base um of the 3% you know if if we look at what the 3% is um so in any case I just I don't know how to go here without Revenue numbers and expense numbers because I'm not trying to generate a deficit and I'm not trying to draw on stabilization funds for an operating budget or free cash for an operating budget I think we need that free cash uh the uh my mentioning roofs last time uh has got the schools looking at roofs because they know they have roofs and if they get into the accelerated repair program if we there'll be a different line on Regional Capital than we've seen in the past um so I I understand so Mandy if that's where the capital projections need the 10.5 I'm fine with that because they weren't in any of the five years worth um so I just I just I want us to have some flexibility in these guidelines now I may be the only one that wants to move away from equal I'll just point out that equal is something we've done in the past because it was easy it it it's really easy you get it in the fall in the in the indicators and then you say yes and then we don't have to have a long discussion about it because the numbers are what the numbers are and that my under my understanding of where that came from our history is when two and a half came in it was an easy way to start thinking about budgeting um in terms of our Revenue increases that doesn't mean we always need to do it and in the past there were times where we did more in a particular area um based on the need of that area um so uh that is all I can say on this because I can't I don't have the number ban with right now other than doing what Mandy's done where she's downloading as much data as possible and creating her own spreadsheets and I haven't done that Alicia um yes thank you Bob um so I'm I haven't been talking much because I'm still working on developing my particular opinion on this and I was interested in hearing what other counselors and um committee members had to say but I think last week and this is just in response to Kathy's comment last week I mentioned thinking that like we are going to need to start thinking outside of the box looking for Creative non precedented ways to address these issues and so maybe I am with Cathy on thinking that maybe we should not offer all of the same percentage of increases um I just don't feel like I have enough information to say exactly what those percentages should be at this point which is why I haven't been really sharing but Kathy said that she's not sure if anyone else is with her on that so I did want to speak up and say that I am interested in EXP exporing that option thank you uh councelor hanii so one potential way of exploring it is to ask in our budget guidelines that that the four functional areas I believe the region might already be somewhat doing this um do more of a zerob based budgeting presentation and look in coming up with their functional areas of budgets so that we can every so often including maybe this year or next year so that we can really see we talk about in the budget guidelines I think efficiencies and Effectiveness and all um towns change schools change libraries change um with a 3% and never relooking it too much about changing all of that maybe some of the programming within each of the functional areas is not serving our residents well and needs to be rethought um on a significant budget scale um we can't do that in the next three months though much but we could ask for it in our budget guidelines that would help us potentially figure out a way to have a conversation about whether equal increases every year are appropriate um based on what is going on in each of the functional areas or not thank you Andy yeah um I mean I'm not unwilling to have the conversation about changing the long-term policy but I do have concerns about it and I would so it would take some to convince me that it's the right thing to do um which is different from saying him don't have the conversation uh one of the I guess there are a couple things one is that you know uh reference was made to zerob based budgeting and um there you know looking at a different approach to budgeting I think that U is a valid exercise but it's most important you know it's important for all segments of the budget including the schools and one of the difficulties that we have have had with the school budgets is that their view of um maintaining current Services year forear um has them always starting out with a huge deficit and then um they're trying to say look at all of the cuts that we have to make for the deficit and I think that uh you know we continue to press the schools and they don't really change their budget preparation philosophy um so we're always back in the same situation that they are projecting a greater need of increase than revenues and if we meet that need of revenues um it comes at the expense of something else and um we need to look at what that something else is um as far which gets back to my other concern is that we are a little bit different from the other three towns in that um needs for municipal services are greater they're greater for lots of reasons probably the biggest one being the fact that we're uh paying for um services that are provided because we have three in highered institutions that uh are tax exempt but still uh need roads still need Public Safety still need other kinds of Municipal services but um it would be um a real uh mistake to not come into this without recognizing what we always try and tell the other towns that um there is a burden that comes with being the largest community in of the three and um having some of the problems that don't exist in smaller towns just because of the nature of the pressure that comes on the bigger Community to provide those additional kinds of services and uh I think you need to really consider if you're going to go and change the percentages uh what is it you're suggesting that happens on the municipal side um when we do those Municipal hearings every year with the department heads um you you know they're always saying yep we'll live with what has been proposed by the town manager but there's always these little pieces in there about um if we had additional funds um we could meet these goals and those goals are not insignificant so um I just have some caution about U where we're going with this um and will'll press hard if we have this conversation Kathy I am not talking about decreasing the 3% for municipal or for Library I'm talking about just considering increase in the school which is why I'm looking at revenues and other expenses and I think there is one Department in Municipal that's running with a huge amount of vacancies and we could potentially freeze it to gen and it's generating the Surplus we just saw in expenditures on Staffing until and it's Cress the it potentially I'm so I'm saying 3% for municipal which will leave some budgeting room within the municipal for Paul and staff to look at the efficiencies of the Departments and make some decisions so Andy I was not talking about going lower I think we are short staffed in Municipal and that we are really lucky that we have people willing to work extra hard sometimes with two job titles you know so I'm not looking at they could less than three so I just want to be clear about I was talking about a greater percentage and looking for the revenue side and the expense side on where we could do that within a budget guideline that didn't generate a deficit so that that's where my math is going not lower cuz I totally agree on the municipal side uh councilor Walker um yeah I just have a question maybe for Paul um just in relation to what Cathy just said the vacancies in Crest are they currently being filled now though uh yes we just hired two people um and and part of the um expenses for Crest are are uh we've received substant Grant support for Crest over the last few years and a lot of their expenses go into that Grant rather than from town funds um sorry just one followup to that is there a end date to the grants that we've been utilizing to supplement that uh so it's a year-by-year grant we just learned a few days ago that we got the grant for FY 25 26 so or 25 um so it was late in the game it's always a battle at the state house so I I think it's a challenge every year sorry one additional after that so is it reasonable to expect that we will see a similar outcome with the crest budget for the next fiscal year considering that we know we will have that grant that we've been pulling from that for this fiscal year it we don't guarantee any grant funding for FY 26 which is the fiscal year that we're really talking about okay thank you Tom thank you Bob and apologies in advance I have to uh jump for a previously committed 11:30 so I'll be leaving you soon um it's a bit of an onse not Crest but back to what Andy brought up I guess I uh just wanted to Second his point on the um zerob based budgeting versing versus using the Baseline uh the preserving the Baseline services and programming model uh including the model of delivery in the schools um which then leads to the apparent crisis of cuts that we we go through every year I know that the new superintendent has ideas about Innovative approaches to planning and I really applaud that and I uh I I haven't lived through these Cycles with you so I don't know if zerob based budgeting is something that's uh been a battle that uh that has already been fought but um I I I I hope we'll genuinely uh try to try that and see that for the schools going forward um that's my comment thank you any other comments um I'm not sure again where we're at I mean we've had a lot of discussion but I don't know that we've had a lot of consensus um I maybe we have a consensus on at least preserving 3% increase right now um with guidelines that say maybe we should try to find more ways of funding the Regional Schools uh through you know through projections and expenses um once we get more information about that maybe we'll uh we'll be able to to adjust um without tapping into the the free cash that we we have from last year um does does that seem like a reasonable path forward to I mean it won't I don't know that we know kind of how things are going to break over the next year uh so I think we it's very hard for us for me to at least understand that we can actually come up with more money for the schools I mean I think you know traditionally we haven't really dealt with that at this stage of the budget process we've dealt with it kind of in the may you know April May time frame um so I don't know I mean that may be kicking the can down the road road but I mean I think if we put in the guidelines that you know we would like to see you know more money go to the Regional Schools if we can get there without you know doing something that makes the town manager and the finance director uh uneasy um you know maybe that's the way to do it at this stage in the process and that means we're kind of not I mean we we could say we could try or we could say we you know our Target is x amount of dollars um that we might we think we can save or we think we can find somewhere in the budget Bernie Bernie you're on mute free cash stuff is always interesting because it's and it's always misunder stood um I just is a point you know having been um forever in the free uh in the nonprofit world and and in in the public sector U you just want to point out that to be a going concern we have to retain revenues um and that uh the fact that we generated a free we have free cash just means we're retaining revenues we're we're we're able to be a going concern we can't spend it all um I would um going back to some earlier discussion I sort of like the idea that uh maybe we can incorporate it into this document that if we do generate free cash these are some of the purposes we might put it to and those purposes would be reflecting the one-time uh only nature of free cash um setting some of it aside so we are retaining some revenue and then where we might look to to utilize the difference in freead in terms of uh the guidelines budget guidelines I think it's only fair for us to say now that in this point in time we can say 3% um the situation is it's it's Lial it may change uh and as it changes we will update the guidelines we should acknowledge that there are um some uh problems and some tough spots for the for the schools we're not unmindful of that we're not we do want to be helpful but at this point in time we can't say how helpful we can be and that's those are fair statements councelor haniki so um I think we need to also settle on who's doing a redraft of this um and and everything I know Bob you had indicated maybe you would um it sounds like Kathy and I might have more solid convictions on what we want to see or do with this document um and so maybe we can decide how we're going to do that because I think it's going to be hard for the committee to vote anything without seeing a document that's close to what we would send to the council um with recommendations written out and where those options are and all um and all so uh I don't know what you want to do about that or what your suggestion is and yeah um well I I as I said I in my email I just I I took a a very quick and dirty look at what we what we had and I just tried to update it to to be the numbers going forward and the the dates and all that um the years um I'm fine if you want to work with Kathy we just need to make sure we're not creating a subcommittee because you know we have to be careful about that but I think if Kathy you wanted to take the lead and work with or Mandy if you want to take the lead and work with with Kathy uh work with other people to to work to do it uh I'm okay with that but uh Athena do you have a some comments on this I I would say if Kathy wants to take the lead then she can ask for input from members from any member can send input um and then she'll um I think present a draft at the next meeting is that what you're suggesting yeah something that sounds perfect do you Council Hy are you okay with that and Kathy I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna ask it sounds like if Mandy got it down to seven I was going to flip it I will send her a marked up piece to say here are areas because I didn't I started to mark up what would I took out what would I move around and I focused more on the core recommendations and I didn't get to the other but if Mandy I am totally willing to have her be in charge of getting this down and then us all sending for the time being I think we're talking about not say not changing the major recommendation area leaving leaving that to be a to come bullet bullet bullet um you know however we set that up and just getting it down to a condensed form is is that correct that's that's where we are and then Mandy if you what what's been was useful in the past is that chart at the end comes from the indicators and it would be good to have it not be go just just go ahead and plunk it in you know the picture at the very end so people see what we're talking about so that either becomes part of it you know the projections or it doesn't become part of it but that very final document was pure um projections from the the November so if Mandy if you're comfortable with that I will just send just you the you know comment section or the ex out section on what I started to do because I didn't get it down to seven councelor Hani okay with that so I can do that I will say two of the pages I cut out were those projections because they're available in other places so um I I did just delete them but if people want to keep them in because they're it's nice to have them right near where people are reading I'm okay with keeping them in um I did also want to say one of the things I was Focus you know I cut out the entire section on budget process um and planning for future years although some of that planning for future years might be able to stay in it um um those those were some of sort of the big things I cut out um but one of the things I noticed when when we were at the financial indicators meeting that I wanted to make clear clearer in this document and I thought I'd just bring it up now um was the document always starts out with a revenue projection that is an increase of X percentage over the year before I think this one is um where where is it it's it's um it's an increase of um 4.6% year-over-year from FY 25 and then a capital that was an X percentage increase over a year over year and all and and what I found of other committee members that were not counselors they were looking at that and going wow you're really spending a lot on Capital but those increases and well you had a 4% 4.6% increase in budget but you're only giving us 3% why is that well that's because our debt service for the debt exclusion increased tremendously between fy2 and FY 26 and that is part of that percentage and so one of the things I wanted to make clear with however it's left in here is here's what the increase is when you get rid of the debt exclusion increase and the debt to Capital because that shows Capital increasing a million and a half in in in expenditures for the year but they're spe for specific purposes that that we can't spend it on anything else and it's going to keep doing it year over-year for a little bit um and so I think we need to make clear that that makes our budget increases look higher than they actually are they're inflated because of the first ramp up of these debt exclusion numbers that really shouldn't be talked about we should talk about the budget in numbers that don't necessarily include those debt exclusion numbers too in addition to the ones that do hey Andy uh and Kathy I need to step away for just a second if you can just moderate from now on will Andy yeah I I'll be really quick um Mandy uh I agree that I think you we could um do something about the future your projections to make it briefer but the one thing that I would hesitate to lose is that one of our principles is that we don't just budget thinking about one year but we think about the future that we need to be developing Financial plans on a multi-year basis and I think that's just sound management policy for any organization so as you do that redraft um you know making it briefer is great losing it is not great um I'm just going to build on I don't see any other hand so I'm calling them myself um so Mandy by the same token in revenues exclude the $2 million in revenues from debt exclusion you you know so it's you know the the whole purpose is to say we only had this much money in the coming year and it has to pay for all of these things and it it shouldn't that money is both in the top line and the bottom line and it cancels out um so whatever we can do to make it clearer on what constraints we face would be great um so it's yeah that's you know it's a little bit too I feel the same way about state aid you know that we show it up in a revenue side and then we show a subtraction of it down below so we don't really have that money to spend you know but in any case I'm I'm not going to worry about that weirdness um on a it's it's we never get that money it's just subtracted before for you know the the the cherry sheet dollars it's never there to spend so just trying because people you know when people are looking to next year's budgets and we've had it with counselors three more of these staff two more of those look about this amount of money and I said no the total that we have to spend and uh some high percentage of that is just the wages and benefits of the people who work for us I mean it's we we have we have extremely small wiggle room in all of this if wiggle is the right flexibility in in all of this so just do it in both ways as clear as possible and I'll just I'll send you yeah I I I could you know I could commit today is Friday can commit to get you marking up we're meeting next week Bob is that correct yes and are we meeting at starting at nine next week I believe so yes okay and so I was going to do the same request that I did last time is to at least if we can budget for two and a half hours that it would be nice if we got to a rough draft um of of core core points on on a few things on this and we haven't finished on free cash and we haven't uh fourth quarter was just I I said this last time but what Holly gave us is a gift it was such a clear fourth quarter Report with summary items that really tell you where to look on what's going on here so I really want to thank you for the extra work that went into that yeah it was very helpful thank you uh any other discussion on the budget guidelines for now um okay so I think we should try to look at the supplemental I'm going to postpone the fourth quarter report because I I think we need to talk about the supplemental budget requests it's pretty clear that we can't deal with all of them but I think we could uh certainly uh talk about the um it's it's it's unfortunately it's in uh 12a um FY 252a contains both the reparation stabilization fund and the capital stabilization fund so unless we're prepared to uh put all that money into the capital stabilization fund I think we need to wait hold off on that but it seems like we can talk about uh the waste Haller study and the special Revenue the opioid settlement F fund um we could make a recommendation on those um without I don't think there's much controversy on those so um does every does everyone agree that I I know that last week we talked about kind of voting up and down on all of these at once but I don't think we can I'd like to get as much as we can recommended to the the count Council in prior to Monday's meeting but um I think we can't uh I don't know that we can I mean I'm open to suggestions but I would recommend that we reduce the the the the uh the um appropriation for the waste toer study to 75,000 because I think that's all we they that the town really needs that we talked to Guilford yesterday that's all Guilford needs to get the RFP done and get the results back um Bob it might be helpful to go through these one by one would you like me to put them on the screen so you can decide what you want to do because I think we're kind of yeah trying to trying to go a whole hog at all of them okay if that's okay that's fine and just to be clear to members and members of the public we're we're holding uh the public Forums on these the public forum on these on Monday at 7 o'clock um and if the finance committee doesn't vote um any recommendations on one or all of these then um we'll still hold the public forum but the council vote will be postponed yeah I don't again I I think we're everyone agrees with the uh reparation stabilization fund but the the amount to to the capital stabilization fund depends in part on what we decide on some of the other um um the other uh orders so um I think anyway councelor heni do you want to make a comment so I actually don't want to change this order at all unless we're going to increase the capital stabilization fund um but but given some of the things we've said if we reduce waste huler I'm not sure I want to put it into Capital stabilization I think I want to leave it in free cash and so I don't see that uction changing this number at all um and we can't actually increase this number on our own legally we could only decrease it and I'm I'm at this point I'm not willing to decrease it I know there are some conversations about potentially using some of this money for capital projects at the region or at the other schools we can't do that ourselves we have to get something from the manager to do that and if it's in capital stabilization it could come out of that if in the future we decide to do it that way so I'm ready to vote this one um personally okay Kathy I I agree and that's exactly where I was going to go so when we come back when we get down to Wast Haller and it goes to a lower number I want it just to stay in free cash not not to I think that's what Mandy just said so it's not so so we would transfer this to the stabilization fund and reparation and when we get to opioid I'm going to have the same view but I if if you recomend if we're recommending was that a motion to support this I would second it I I can make the formal motion I move to recommend the council adopt appropriation and transfer order FY 25-11 12a um as presented Shane seconds okay uh we had a uh a motion any discussion all right let's uh let's vote on this uh I will vote I um Kathy yes counc hanii hi Andy yes Alicia yes okay Bernie and K uh Tom Tom had to oh he left sorry um Matt Matt also left that also left okay all right so it's uh unanimous uh five voting members and one uh present uh resident member okay so why don't we go to the second one right so this is a million for roads and sidewalks uh are there any discussion of these Bernie um the most frequent comment made to me um by people I run into anywhere and everywhere is we need to fix the potholes uh so I I would really hope fix some potholes so do I have a a motion Kathy yes I make a motion to recommend that the finance committee recommends approval of appropriation and transfer order f y 25- 05b uh to appropriate a million dollar for roads and sidewalk repairs a second okay uh all right any uh additional discussion okay the motion has been made and seconded uh now we'll call for a vote um councilor hanaki I councelor Walker yes Andy yes Kathy yes I'm a yes U birdie support all right so this is also uh unanimous uh let's move to the next one which is 05c so this is for the the uh sidewalk plow um any discussion councelor hanii so I'm not sure I can support this one um it seems like it's needed because we're taking on plowing for non Amorous owned part adjacent sidewalks however you want to refer to it as and I I don't think I can vote for this until we've cleared up what a plowing policy is that is Equitable and logical and all of that and until we've done that 200,000 seems like a lot for a few uses a year that isn't even needed for our own obligations versus to clear sidewalks that we don't aren't obligated to do Under the bylaw so I I'm not I I think I'm going to be voting against recommending this one personally anyone else have any comments do I have a motion wait a minute um I just get my hand up um I think that the U one of the things that I was not clear about after the last conversation why I would not want to vote on it today is that um statement was made by Guilford that um there are other uses that this is yearr round equipment and not um just for plowing but we didn't really get a good explanation about what those other uses are and the value that this piece of equipment would have and um there was also um a concern expressed about having lost two um pieces of equipment and that uh we um are down to having no spare and um that that has consequences because if we have no spare and we lose the one the one remaining one we can't even meet our responsibility to um take care of the sidewalks that we are absolutely required to take care of so um I am not ready to vote and will oppose um uh any motion to uh or or any thought about not going forward um I think if there are remaining concerns we should postpone okay Bernie I I heard that there are other uses for this piece of equipment and it's not something that uh was uh going to be only used for a handful of handful of sidewalks and until we hire a snow R enforcement officer uh I think we need to have it and I think um you know the the uh uh doing some extra plowing this is a pretty standard discussion and debate in every single town that I've seen and been part of so I'm willing to support this and and uh move move on um Bob if I may I can't raise my hand when I'm sharing my screen so I hope you don't mind me interrupting if I may um the finance committee will have an opportunity to uh reaffirm or reconsider its vote that's on the agenda for the public Forums on the Appropriations so you have some options here you can make a someone can make a motion to not recommend um and that can be voted someone can make a motion to recommend and that might be voted down and then um or you can postpone the vote um and then you'll have an opportunity to reconsider that Vote or make a recommendation at the meeting on Monday so you have some options I I would like to postpone the vote on this one because I think we're we're not we don't really have a consensus on the on the committee does that make sense to people agree okay okay so but hold on only if in postponing we're going to be able to get the information from Guilford that Andy just asked for if not not there's no reason to postpone we should just make I have this same view that I would like Monday night to have a better understanding of what else it can be used for um otherwise I was probably going to be a negative on this um um Guilford won't be at the meeting on Monday but I can make sure that his staff member who will attend um can share that information and even if we had a one-page set of writing it would be helpful okay and paragraph and I would also like to um have confirmation that there is um no backup equipment that there's only one plow now and what the consequences are Melissa I I just wanted to say that Guilford was here earlier he just had to step away for 11:30 so I I just want to make people aware that while he he knew he was not going to be available on Monday and um Amy is coming in his stad on Monday um I do know um from my conversations with Guilford that there is one plow left there used to be three um for that did took care of sidewalks and other things I don't know what those other things are um and that two of them are down at this time so there is one plow remaining we we'll get an answer from gilf and Amy so that um the committee can consider that on Monday if that's acceptable Kathy yeah and just if we can get in writing would be good um because I also have an image of a small little tractor with a plow in front like my uh neighbor uses so I don't completely understand 200 100,000 because when when we talked about that it's a jcpc there was a sophisticated one that was going to cost a lot and the little ones we had now were not as good but they kind of did the job so it's just it's it's the price tag you know if we were looking at $100,000 with a plow that take comes off a tractor front and the tractor then can be used for clearing trash off the sidewalk there's trickers on the sidewalk or cleaning along the gutters you know what else can this thing be used for so just something in writing would help me vote positively for it okay so the questions I have that I'll um seek answers to before Monday are other uses of the plow if there is backup equipment available now and if there are less costly options is that correct yeah that sounds good anybody else have any comments on this okay uh think let's move to the next one okay thank you this is the waist Haller study um again I um Andy concur can concur with this TSO we we talked about this a little bit and we got a more a a finer um explanation from uh from uh Guilford about what this money was for and it's really for a consultant to help with writing um an RFP and going through the RFP program uh process and getting bids from uh waste holers that would tell us what the cost of various options would be um and it we recognize that there may be a need for some Outreach but we don't know what kind of Outreach we need until we see the results from the RFP so we don't really know what it is we need um and I don't know Athena this I don't I don't really like the way this is worded uh so but we can't change the wording on it so um and I don't know if if we can I mean we can recommend that that the wording be changed to reflect more of what the thing is actually used for uh to be used for um it's not really a waste toer study it's really an RFP uh We've we've sort of U we've made the decision that we want to go with the council has made a a decision that that we want an RFP so I I don't know what what the what this is for as it now stands so my um if I can answer that question my understanding is that the study is for a consultant to develop the RFP so we wouldn't put RFP in here this is for the consultant to study what would go into the RFP with input from the town services and Outreach committee um and that's why it doesn't say RFP in this appropriation that's my understanding um Melissa it doesn't even say consultant Athena the way it's written yep I understand that's the words we we chose if you if you wanted to make a recommendation that includes that specific word then I think that would be appropriate but it would we wouldn't present a an uh a different order we would the finance committee could make that recommendation and we could make sure to get it in on yeah I would I would make the I well birdie it's it's clear that nobody's clear um again I I know the Council made a decision I happen to disagree I think we're trying to solve a problem we don't have and spend money that you don't need to spend um but it it does seem that no one is quite certain as to what the outcome of or the use of the of the $75,000 will be uh down from 125 uh and if there's a prospect in here that we end up with a recommendation that we hire additional staff that's even more reason not to do it but um so I I'm I'm going to vote no on this because uh I don't understand what the purpose is okay Andy um I'm only going to briefly U respond to Bernie's last Point uh but I a little bit more about the discussion about how this is evolved um Bernie I think that uh we have a waste huler system that uh we have no control over that it has very high expense that is paid for by our residents and users of the system and that we have no control whatsoever in uh having uh uh how how that is priced that other communities that have had competitive processes have all succeeded in reducing their cost so um there's good track record that this has been effective uh we attended um a session at the last MMA conference that lasted several hours and went into extensive detail in supporting that and uh that uh the system that we have now without any consideration of composting is not not um environmentally sound because it throws things into dumps that produce methane that's not necessary so I think that there is very strong reason to do this and uh the um but the other thing that I wanted to just report on regarding yesterday is uh I very much appreciate the fact that um Paul came up with the original amount I think that he recognized that if we go forward to full implementation that it is going to require something more than just this first step of um doing the request for proposal however um we don't know that we're going to go beyond that first step um unless we um have a successful RFP process in response to the rfps that have that are consistent with what other communities have seen and so that the question that was really before the committee yesterday was we had made a recommendation to set aide funds for an RFP that um we um that the amount that was put forward was greater than the amount that was necessary for that purpose and uh that a future decision could be made about additional funds but that it was not necessary in some ways not appropriate to make it now and that that was our um feedback as far as was concerned the last thing that I just want to clarify for anybody who's asking why is it costing this much money um we have looked at the rfps that have been most recently issued by um Long Meadow and um also since we've had the some of us but not all of us have seen the one that was issued by Arlington because it was just uh somebody just forwarded that to us um within the last week and it hasn't been shared with the entire committee but both of those proposals are U those requests for proposals are very comprehensive and they run into U you know more than a 100 pages and the reason that they go into that much length and that it is not you can't just say Oh Long Moto had a great proposal or Arlington had a great proposal to use it is because those proposals describe both what the community is um has in the way of current resources uh number of households all of the things that you would need to do to Pro to respond to an RFP and put a cost on um have to be particularized to the community and the community's expectations have to be clearly stated and U the Consultants who um have worked on these proposals know um what is necessary and what they can build on from other rfps that have been issued and uh that is why the uh number that um Guilford reported to us um does uh um make sense and for those reasons uh we uh suggested separating out the RFP from future things that future expenses that might be necessary but could be voted at a future date thanks uh councelor haniki I was going to make a motion um so I move to recommend that the council reduce the sum total of appropriation in appropriation and transfer order FY 25- 05d from 100 25,000 to 75,000 and then after reduction adopt the amended appropriation and transfer order I second that walk discussion Bernie okay um Andy thank you for all that information youve uh you you manage to move me over a little bit um and since the motion will be to redu Ed the amount um I will then have to I think logically have to support it so what thanks I I and I understand that you don't want to U it's a common a common mistake see copy other people's rfps and expect different result so I I understand the need to to to to to go out and have one written for the community I'm still not um overall supported of the project Kathy so just so I'm clear we're voting on the motion to amend then we will vote again on the appropriation order or was or was Mandy's wording to recommend the appropriation order with the amendment and I just I'm going to be a yes but I just need to know what I'm voting on yeah um M's motion meant that you just have to vote once to reduce the amount and uh recommend approval so the motion was to recommend the Town Council reduce the sum of the order from 125 to 75,000 and then adopt as amended I just I wanted to be clear so Bernie understood that it wasn't just to change the wording thanks okay any other discussion okay the motion has been uh made and seconded uh we'll now vote I'll vote uh first I councel Hani hi Kathy yes Alicia yes Andy yes and Bernie knowing full well I'll say yes okay thank you okay again we have a unanimous uh vote uh to amend this uh the amount and and and then recommend that to the council uh let's move to the next one so this is the opioid settlement special Revenue fund it's basically just to move money that we received from the opioid settlement fund into a reserve fund so we can better track what we have and and and how it's being used um does anyone have a discussion of this do I have a motion counc I have a question so all the other free cash transfers say free cash you know to meet such appropriation transfer from free cash for appropriation and further authorize but this one says transfer that the town appropriate and transfer a sum from free cash in the undesignated fund balance of the general fund to the fund to the opioid settlement fund why is this one sort of referencing free cash in a different manner or Melissa can you answer that I mean honestly I I I copied the vote from last year I I don't know but I I do think that um that this um account like we track in one of the general fund Revenue lines um this um particular miscellaneous Revenue if I have if I have it correct and so Holly can correct me if I'm wrong and we don't we do not budget for it we do not project for it because the um the a decision was made by Council previously that we would move it into this a special revenue account so it as I understood what you just said it's a different kind of free cash it's not so free it it it already has a specified purpose um and we just have to put it in the account to which its purposes it's a you know it's kind school choice money we can't just spend it um so this is opioid money we have to put it somewhere is that is that what I think there explanation was yeah that's my understanding okay understand is it's really just a bookkeeping exercise that you know we just want to make sure we clearly separate this money out and it's not included in in any other way Holly um I was just going to ask a the if she could go back to one of the others I guess I'm not sure what the distinction is in the wording I'm I didn't I didn't it says in the undesignated fund balance of the general fund rather than just transfer and appr appropriate and transfer from free cash to or for a different purpose so Mandy was just wondering about these words um but but I think the explanation provided unless there's additional questions is sufficient that it is it goes into the general fund with a specific purpose and it's just sort of an accounting thing to Move It from that with the specific purpose to the opio settlement fund uh absolutely yes but I believe that that wording has been used on others in the past um so I just I am not sure what the difference um go up and the other one just says from free cash rather than from right but go up undesignated fund balance go back up to the I believe the first one same thing from free cash and the undesignated f I think it's just a it's just wording is slightly different there is really no difference in where the money is currently sitting thanks Al I your hand is still up did you want to say something on okay all right uh so do I have a motion I'll make a motion that the finance committee recommend to the Town Council uh appropriation and transfer order FY 2-6a to transfer from free cash to the OPA settlement special Revenue fund second okay I have a motion and has been made and seconded do any other clarify we're recommending to adopt or approve I think Kathy forgot those words when she said it so adopt and approve yes thank you all right thank you um is that Andy is that yes okay acceptable yep all right any other comments okay will she vote I uh I'll vote first I vote I Kathy yes councelor haniki I Andy I councelor Walker yes uh Bernie support thank you okay so well so um I think we've thank you very much supplemental requests and um we've approved them all except for the sidewalk equipment which we postponed and uh the waste huler study which we reduced so Kathy yeah I just I have a request for Monday night for the hearing um and it's um the memo already has this but somebody emailed me to say can I see what is in our Reserve accounts and it's up in the upper paragraphs could we just have a table that would say we have this much in general stabilization when this happens we a little table and so with the opiod settlement I have asked and I've been told what is in that fund and we see in the reparations fund what it will be just it would be useful just to have a little table that says we've been reserving this amount of money and this is what it'll be if these orders pass um I think it's easy to do but it means we can find it in one place rather than have to read it that's just whatever is the easiest way to do it since we're clearly tracking it I I'll get you that okay um so the um I do want to talk about or does anyone have anything more to say about the fourth quarter report for FY 24 uh again I thought it was very good very helpful um and I really thought that it lays out very clearly um you know where the money came from and where's it it went councelor hanii yeah um I want to Echo what Kathy said about these this fourth quarter report I thought it was fantastic in the way it was presented and how much information was presented um just some observations and then some questions related to those observations um I I found it interesting that our returned Appropriations over the N last number of years have been consistently between 1 and 3% so it seems like our expense side as we were talking about budget guidelines um are fairly accurate estimates it's the revenue surpluses that have had that larger larger variety um and I think that's where we're trying to figure out everyone kind of seems like a oneoff reason for it but year after year when that happens how how can we do a little bit better um Cherry Hill um on the expenses side it seemed like there was a statement that increased cart rentals increased the expenses were those increased expenses then set off by increased revenues for cart rentals um like or are we not asking for cart rental fees that cover the expense of cart rentals um was just one thing I was surprised to see that the Enterprise fund particularly sewer did not um cover the transfers required and didn't make many of the transfers that we had budgeted into the general fund um and so I'm concerned as we go forward that we have not been budgeting our Enterprise funds particularly sewer well enough to take care of and cover the expenses including unanticipated expenses that we know have um gone up because our equipment is old and needs full replaced um I was curious why the expenses for the north Hammer Library um were not budgeted in FY 24 in this fourth quarter it seemed like that budget was zero and so have we corrected that budgeting in future fiscal years um and then on the revenue side what struck out to me on or stuck out to me on that one was it seemed like or now I guess on the expense side one of the things that stuck out to me was that nearly all DPW expense lines were overspent except snow and ice um it was it seemed to be the only Department that had consistent excess expenditures and I am curious as to why almost all the DPW line expense lines were overspent um and if that's been an issue over the past number of years or whether this is an outlier a year for that um so those were just some of mine H um I can try to address some of those I did not write them down fast enough I didn't know it was going to be such a list manage um councelor hanii but I um so North ammer Library yes was not budgeted um for uh you know maintenance costs um the additional cost with us assuming uh responsibility for that portion of the building that is a budgeted line item in FY 25 um can't remember off the top of my head but I believe it was pretty similar to what was um expended in FY 24 I think we budgeted around 13 to 15,000 possibly which will likely not be enough to cover the expenditures at that building um I know there was one on Cherry Hill Golf Carts ter Hill Golf Carts um my understanding is I believe it was three years ago I believe we're right at the end of a three-year lease on new golf carts the golf carts um had been aging we had had the same golf carts there for you know a lease after a lease after a lease they were aging and the um the recommendation was made to get um you know a brand new set of golf carts there for rental um not sure if they changed the rental fees at that time or not to help cover the additional cost but the cost that is budgeted for those is at um you know a figure that it it was you know 10 years ago when we were renting um golf carts at a much lower um annual cost so that is something that just has not caught back up with the budgeting yet um if you could prompt me with other questions I'll do my best to answer um I guess one of my biggest ones because a lot of them were just observations was the um my observation on DPW that nearly all those expense lines were overspent um is that a recurring issue or is that just a onetime odity for fy4 um I would have to look into that a little bit further um there the the thing with DPW is that folks move around so much they may be in the tree Department this week they they get a promotion they move to a different department next week and sometimes those um there is some crossover between the different um departments within DPW and we we more or less treat DPW um as one Department budget wise at the end of the year there are probably some things we could do to to to make that a little better um but I I'm not prepared to to respond um with any detail to that one right now um the biggest savings was in snow and ice um for sure as we had a mild winter um and I believe without snow and ice it was not really over by that much there was a savings um in the construction maintenance line um as well so there were two departments that that saved there um and um 100% agree um water and sewer Enterprise funds have been struggling over the past several years um it is something that when we set the rates uh for the coming fiscal year that we are going to have to look at very closely there are more Capital needs um that they are um going to uh be asking for that we need to make sure are covered in our rates um you know we do have an exercise that we go through to set the rates where we we put in projected all sorts of projected costs and projected debt costs and upcoming projects and capital items um we do the indirect cost and we estimate out what that is going to be um the unfortunate reality is um you know the water and sewer Enterprise funds have very specialized equipment and processes and procedures and things that we need to follow and the the cost of all those things are are just increasing phenomenally and the um and although I believe our consumption rates are now coming back up we are still sort of at a phase coming out of covid where things were shut down and and there were a lot of um water conservation um things done you know townwide everybody is trying to conserve the water our our consumption was dropping our consumption dropped considerably during covid with the colleges being closed and the businesses being closed Etc we are now back up to what I believe to be normal consumption so I think we can be a little bit more accurate with those going forward because I think some of those unknowns are are more known to us now that where our consumption is going to you know continue at this level and we know that our costs are going up at a at a much higher level so I think we can be a little bit more accurate with those in the coming year thanks thank you Bernie yeah um Kathy and I never had the the joy of going in and looking at how do we cost and price our our seore charges and our water charges we started that and sort of sort of went away but that is an area that I think um the town might be well advised to bring in a consultant firm that specializes in these things because it's complicated um and having an outside set of eyes looking at it um and and making recommendations might actually be up thanks any other comments okay I think we're the only thing left on our agenda is uh minutes adoption of the October 1 2024 meeting minutes and the November 8 2024 meeting minutes so I um I I don't have the November ones ready I thought I would have them y this October yeah any okay so yes so it's just the October one um anyone have any comments on those minutes I look through them they look okay to me okay um do I have a motion I'll make a motion to approve second second okay um all right we've had a motion and a second any further discussion all right so we'll start a vote I'll vote on hi Andy I uh councelor Walker yes Kathy yes uh councelor heniki hi Bernie support all right it's unanimous and we'll do November 8 when we have it um next committee meeting is scheduled for next Friday at 9: I I think we can if everybody can make it we'll do it two two and a half hours as well um just plan for that um and uh I think at that point we'll see if we need more meetings before um the final vote on the guidelines but hopefully we'll have a councelor hanii hopefully we'll have a a guidelines document by then yeah I'll I'll have one for next week um I had a comment as as we're talking about next committee meetings there was a budget calendar in last week's packet um and we forgot last year that when we do the water and sewer rates we also have to amend the regulations or the bylaw or something like that and I want to just make sure that the budget calendar includes that particular thing throughout anytime the sewer and water regulations are met so that we don't forget that again um I I know it's kind of related to next committee meetings but not particularly but it was the best place to fit it really appreciate that reminder Randy anyone else have any comments any items uh Holly I just want to say thank you to everybody for the accolades on the fourth quarter report it is um a different report it is still the same report you guys have gotten up for the fourth quarter of every year it is still Sonia's you know sort of original um format just you know updated it so thank you but I'm giving the credit back to my predecessor I just recreated her report you did Holly but you also expanded and gave us some history which was incredibly useful so it I realized I actually asked where was first second and third and Paul said give Holly a break she's been working triple jobs for the past 12 months so thank you so much take the compliment Holly I am taking the compliment thank you very much but it it's really not me I'm I just pluged numbers in there it did take the mystery out of out of it did help solve the free cash Ministry for which you do receive should get all kinds of faul thank you thank you all okay anyone uh with items not anticipated by the chair 4 Hour hour in advance no all right so uh is there a motion to adjourn they moved second all right I'll vote I Andy I Kathy yes uh uh councelor Walker yes councelor hanii hi Bernie I recognizing the busy busy town I vote I well enjoy your little town there thanks everybody and we'll see you next week thanks have a great weekend