##VIDEO ID:S1CQVZUzI5s## all right we're recording please go ahead all right uh thank you everyone um this is uh Bob higner uh the finance committee of the Town Council of amrest I I'm calling to uh order at uh 203 PM by my clock um this is a regular meeting uh that we've scheduled um the meeting is being held virtually uh for those of you who um are in the audience uh if you have trouble uh either um raising your hand or otherwise uh being recognized for public comment then please let me know or let Athena know and we can uh see if we can solve that problem uh there will not be any uh inperson um ACT public access at this meeting will just be uh virtual as we have been for some time now so um before I open up the the meeting to public comment I just want to go around the room and make sure that all the committee me Members can hear me and can be heard so uh if you just can acknowledge that you're here I'd appreciate it um Andy I'm here Bernie yes Kathy yes councelor haniki present tom okay so everyone's here uh we're still short a couple of members uh I want to welcome Tom Porter to the committee um Tom is a a longtime ammer uh resident uh I guess you grew up here is that right Tom it's true yep 1962 so so Tom is uh he used to be a neighbor of mine um but he moved out and he moved back to town so uh he couldn't get away from ammer but uh I'm glad he's uh he's here sorry get spam calls all the time um so uh Tom welcome and uh for those of you who don't know Tom Tom does come from a a a very strong has a strong uh Financial background and uh knows amers very well so uh I think he'll be a great addition to our team so with that um I'd like to open up the first uh uh agenda item is public comment um if you could please uh raise your hand uh those of you who are um online if you wish to make a comment I'll raise your hand um and then uh we can uh pull you in to the meeting see two people three people does anyone else want to make wish to make a public comment okay so that that's three uh so um Anita want us should bring in the first person and uh we'll get started we'll uh keep it keep your comments to three minutes please uh otherwise uh you can comment on anything that's that's uh before this committee as a you know the as a an object or a an issue that this committee deals with it doesn't have to be only on the items that are on the agenda so uh Janet Keller can you please uh introduce yourself and tell us where you live sure my my name is Janet go ahead are you're muted um my name is Janet ker I live um on Pulpit Hill Road in north ammer um thank you for this opportunity to comment please consider the long-term costs of expanding the Jones Library um and compared with competing critical needs to repair and replace all other Town buildings roads and infrastructure um and versus the relatively modest cost of restoring the 1928 and 1993 Jon structure um also the value to Amor economy of restoring and in instead of expanding the this iconic Historic Landmark um and replacing the failing HVAC system with a cost effective Renewable Energy System and finally um replacing slate shingles with slate shingles um that have a 50 or 100e life rather than asphalt shingles with a 15 to 30y year life um I uh thank you for considering these comments thank you [Music] uh Maria please uh introduce yourself and tell us where you live thank you this is Maria Kopi I live in South ammer so I am eagerly awaiting your discussion on the financial situation with the proposed Jones Demolition and expansion uh the material that was in the packet was pretty skimpy so I hope that you will be specifically discussing the loss of $1.8 million in historic tax credits the fact that the $2.1 million in other Federal the HUD and inh are very much at risk and uh are like like is not to not materialize uh I didn't see anything in there about the proposed value engineering which was trying to bridge a nearly $7 million gap with $2.9 million in cuts that have been reduced to maybe1 and a half million dollars uh in value engineering um so I'm interesting to see what the finance committee who has a prime responsibility to the town to give advice to the town how you're going to try to square this circle and I think it's time for this committee and the Town Council to have some realistic talk about where we are in addition the there's $500,000 going to be spent on continued this engineering uh value engineering and there's probably going to be a a million dollars in cost escalation you've wiped out anything that could possibly be gained by extending this and trying to rebid this so I'm eager to see what you have to say from a fiscal perspective thank you thank you um one more person arle please uh introduce yourself and tell us where you live hi uh I'm Arley gold I live in South ammer um I'm also uh concerned about this kind of uh money that the project just seems to be letting go of the the mass historic credits now the neh and HUD money at very high risk just letting go of millions of dollars that could help to pay for this project um really because uh seems like a unwillingness to deal with the um historic uh preservation aspect of the project that's all what this money is tied up around and they don't want to do that so this money is just going to you know almost $4 million just floating away because you know I'm not sure why but just seem unwilling to do what's necessary to obtain These funds and um yeah and also you know interesting that you know half a million dollars plus from their endowment to pay for these value engineering uh redesigns just um again fiscally you know what's going on here it doesn't seem very well managed or planned it all seems kind of rushed and ad hoc and um there's some question about how the town is paying for the value engineering redesigns the library is supposed to reimburse they had some conversation you know how fast is that actually happening it does seem to be happening um so that's a good sign that the town isn't in fact paying for these v redesigns um the library is actually maybe doing their share hopefully okay thank you very much thank you thank you for your comment uh I don't see anyone else uh who wants to give public comment uh if there is anyone please raise your hand now otherwise um we'll just uh move on to the agenda okay I think that's it so I'll I'll close public comment um and we'll move on to the next item which is the Jones Library building project Financial update I just want to make it clear here to everyone in the audience that this is just an an an update we're not going to be making decisions today uh we just want to ask some questions and make sure we understand what the finances are um so I don't expect there to be any kind of decision making uh and don't I don't want to set an expectation that that's what we're going to accomplish so um Melissa is are you prepared to talk about this the kind of current uh finances that we have sure so um what I put together I um I got a lot of the information um from the library itself on you know where the funding is coming from and the total um approved cost to date and then I gathered from that monies that we have spent uh to date on this project um and then um included the um the reimbursements that we have received from the library also just so that people are aware um those reimbursements are coming fairly quickly um for the um value engineering being paid directly from the library itself in essence um I do want to clarify that I reviewed this document um with um the library on um Friday evening and uh late this morning got some updates that I just want to share with you um I apparently um in the the the data in the chart itself is correct but I um had omitted um somehow from the pi calculation the um Mass Library Board of Commissioners accelerated increase payment of approximately $1.7 which Chang is only the percentages in the chart um and I can send that updated chart um and py graph to you guys um but essentially is uh 34% Town share 34% Library commission 2% CPA and 30% trustee commitments 15 of which um still needs to be raised by the um by the trustees um and they just wanted to clarify that um their responsibility for that um and and uh to go through it briefly uh the town has committed you know $15 million um to this project um the CPA is um committed a million the um Library Board of Commissioners um that amount is um 15 15, 500,000 more or less um leaving the balance of the commitment um on the currently approved project amount of 46 million um of 13.8 million to be raised by the library Commissioners um and that this is their um funding grants that they've received to date and their um Community campaign um amounts um totaling uh just over7 million dollars um with approximately um $6.8 million left to be raised okay uh does anyone have any questions anyone on the committee um I I I do want to talk about the uh additional federals and state grants um that are on the uh it's not on it's in I guess this is the the second page of your of your report um my understanding is that these grants have been the library is basically in the process of redoing their paperwork to get these grants they won't get them until we actually start construction um these are not grants that are proactively given it you know before the project begins so we won't you know we we we won't see that money until we actually start the project itself um is that correct those numbers were given to me from the library um I don't have any um record of those commitments that's just what they have on their funding sheet and I was just re-reporting it um I don't have access to their campaign they consider this part of their campaign yeah it's it is it is part of their campaign but it's what I'm in response to public comments I just want to point out that that we can't we won't see that money until we actually uh start the construction um but my understanding is that um it's it's these are not necessarily at risk just because we didn't get the historic tax credits we can still get these these sources of money um we can still get these grants so um it's just a matter of working through you know working through the process that we need to go through Bernie did you had a question Bernie you're you're on mute muted uh yeah um when you say we won't see the money it's not that we won't know that we have the grants they'll be awarded right they're going to be negotiating these grants out um over the course of the next month or so so um I mean we'll we'll know if the money's there or not and um you know these should shouldn't be considered at risk because they're not this point they can still get them um and in fact the M library Board of the historical commission could even or historical State Historical could even change their minds if they choose um and that when we'll get into the politics be and the comment I want to make about the his historicity is uh this building was built by people who didn't operate under the same sets of constraints we do uh and one wonders what it would look like if they tried to build it now uh and we're sort of finding that out um so I um I understand that the building is old the building is architecturally interesting uh it's it's uh it's a has some value to people but understand that it was built um on a whim so uh there was no zoning there was no you know controls so let's uh let's take some of the cons concerns about historicity with the grain of salt and speaking of someone who's trained as the historian thanks Kathy uh yeah Melissa I'm not sure you can answer this but I'm gonna ask it um the two federal grants the neh Grant and the HUD Grant both require a section 106 review which um deals with historic and I believe from what actually we've read in the newspaper but also we got a brief report there's been a consultant added to the town or the trustees to help us with that process so my question that that review could put those grants at risk and one of the uh Adis ments on the federal site is make sure you go through that review before you sign a contract for the building you know because you before you you kind of read it like before you go out to bid because if there's something you could change you might not put it at risk so do you know whether the timing whether the 106 review will be completely done before we go out to bid or uh uh you know it's a timing of that review so that well we we will know and and Bernie I'm not dealing necessarily with in love with this piece or that piece of the library but it's a couple million dollars more that that would be on the tobr ray side and it starts to be more than the trustees endowment at that point you know and that's one of their collaterals so that's that's the question I'm just wondering when we will know whether we have in fact secured those whether we get them on day one or not I understand they might be pay out over a year um so it's the timing on that review and whether we know it's a green light an orange light or any variation on that so Kathy I I don't I don't know um I've heard the same things that you've heard that there's this application that needs to to this review that needs to be done but I have not been involved in that process nor do I know um when we will know the answer on that um I can ask I can ask the library trustees and the fundraisers you know if they can help me and I can get back to you but I I just don't know well we could also we have a council meeting next Monday night so we could also say we'd like to at least know the timing of that make sure the town manager or someone there can speak to it because I realize it's there's a team involved in all of this that's following it really closely um so my question is on timing and whether we will okay I'll I'll do my best to get an answer for you thank you um are there any other questions from the committee no not here Andy guess I'll just ask one question as to whether there has been any further review of the uh repair option that we would have to go to if we can't complete the project as the trustees have recommended uh the uh riddle um was uh a fairly thorough and analysis of the work that was known to be done at that time we know that there's some additional work that has to happen because of changes in codes and requirements since then uh but uh I think it's always um worth knowing when we're considering this what What U the alternative cost is um so I was curious whether there's been any thought given to that side is is that a question for me if you know anything El I I I I honestly I don't know because I think what they're um going forward with is to um to move forward with if they can do a redesign um before investing additional monies and you know what would what cost would be to um do repairs at this point cuz because then of course riddle would have to you know we'd have to pay that my assumption is that we would have to pay them for that as well so I think they're just doing one step at a time in hopes um but I but I honestly don't know and I haven't gotten um a report I don't think that we've gotten a report back from um riddle as to if a redesign can be done um but they they were doing several um they did the last meeting that I attended for the library they were you know they gotten some feedback and we're going to try and do some some changes to the redesign so that report hasn't been completed yet so we don't know where that is yet they're still in the um they're still designing the project you know if they can do a redesign and I'm not I'm not 100% sure if they're including a renovation within that or if that's um after they do this redesign I don't know Bernie yeah um two points of clarification I just thought parenthetical Market would be really helpful if we had somebody from the library um either the trustees or uh the head of the program here um to further this discussion two things one it's dangerous to assume that any kind of renovation will be cheaper U because we're going to renovate um they'll there'll be no State money uh and there'll be a Ser likely to if especially if the renovations are done in a series where you have repeated uh mobilizations and different contractors coming in and out it'll be a prolong process and it will be expensive all libraries loaded with asbest in some cases it would be just easier to take things out and take them away than to try and work uh and Abate the asbest um those are those are things that you're going to have to look at for one and for two just to remind people that the trustees are independently elected officers they have control over the the libraries endowment and so how they'll they choose to spend that endowment as a matter between them and their constituents um you know it's a problem when you have all you know elected bodies uh U they they've been elected by the same people that have elected the council elected the school committee thanks thanks any other questions or comments Tom thank you Bob and thank you Melissa I'm new here as you know so um I I know this is a an interim update I'm just curious at how often you hear from uh the library and what would be the next milestone for for an update um well I just while we're in this meeting got a um a meeting scheduled for September 17th so that would be my next time that I would know anything more from the library you any other uh questions or comments on this it you know I I recognize that that we we don't have anyone from the library present um I did I was expecting there to be someone here so um that's too bad um it it's hard to ask Melissa all these questions because she's I'm sure she's drinking from a fire hose as as we speak so um and this is a very very controversial uh project so I you know it's it's unfortunate that we can't really look at a lot of this information in detail um but as I as as Bernie pointed out this is um you know the library trustees are are an elected body and uh we can they they do have the responsibility here to uh oversee the library and so um we there's the the the Town Council has um you know the appropriation Authority but we don't really have the authority to go in and micromanage a project like this so just bear that in mind everyone um any other comments before I wrap up this Bob just one I just want to follow up on what you said the council does need to be financially accountable to the taxpayers so one of my questions is if it doesn't appear that during the life of this project if we can stay within the 46 million that's the first big question and we won't know that till the bids come in but if the 46 million has a bigger fundraising Gap because the funds haven't come in the town is the one who's going to be at risk so even though yes birie we all elected um at the point at the point the level is beyond what the library can cough up no none of them can put their mortgage is mortgages on their home I mean we we we will be paying that so so these questions are mainly just to trying to get a status point you know where you know the we knew it was 7 million when we looked at it at the end of last year and there was still the hope for historic tax credits that would close that seven by two but those are gone so the question about these other two federal grants is a real one so any information we can get out of the trust es both on where their trust their fundraising is going but also how how we're going to Faire in this kind of when you read the federal RS on section 106 it is they go on for pages on what what's going to be looked at who's going to look at it and who's responsible so just some sense on the timing on that I think would be really helpful because we voted we voted the 46 million and so we need to know how much we're going to be on the hook for and I think I can't I can't speak for the trustees I can only speak for a certain conversations I've had and I think people um on the library trustees I think fully are fully aware that there's a limit uh both to what they can spend what the town's willing to spend that line has been drawn you know the town's made its commitments fin Financial commitments they understand what the limits are and I think they would admit if the prices are out of control the project is mute moot and I you know we just need to let this roll forward uh I've never seen a brief Federal Regulation including the regulation that talks about paperwork reduction so that's why you hire Consultants to deal with that I managed to avoid much of that in my career uh thankfully so yeah I mean people understand there's limits and and let's not you know go there there's I guess Kathy I'm excluding you from this but there's been a lot of awfulizing about this project by certain parties and that continues and I think we just need to set it aside and take a nice calm look at this and understand what the process is and understand where the money is coming from and as far as I know no one on the trustees have just falling off the turnup truck or out of the cooking a tree or wherever you come from they understand that their limits and and we've pretty much outlined them around the page 47 million so let's let's move forward with this and and U let's back off on some of the awfulizing around this until we have a real reason to do so okay any other anyone else okay thanks um I'm going to move on to the next item on our agenda which is an an Ray appreciate you being here uh and this is just again an update a financial update on the Cherry Hill Golf Course just to kind of you know how are we doing do we make money do we lose money on the golf course and how much do we make or how much do we lose um so uh I don't know if Ry if you want to brief us I mean I've seen what you've sent yeah and I just want to say they came in late this afternoon well my time it's the middle of the night but anyway um I'm in Switzerland but I did get a chance to look at them so it would be good if we could also see them on the screen at some point Bob yeah okay you wanna Athena can you put these on the screen yep I'll grab that now you want to see the spreadsheet uh I I think the spreadsheet is probably the most um there's one that shows expenses and revenues uh so there's number one and number two and uh number one has the revenue because the revenues are the part we haven't seen in the budget books I as heli knows because I asked her about the fees that's that's a piece that's so in any case that was yes okay um I can I think I can be brief here this coming up on the screen now um we are uh Cherry Hill is making money right now uh revenue is coming in uh in advance of those of of those expenses I believe that we are uh you know trying given our limitations of trying to limit the amount of of uh Revenue that we lose we when I took over Cherry Hill three years ago there were leaks that we were trying to fill uh in terms of uh clubhouse Revenue um we were trying to um U maintain the momentum of of the pandemic when numbers were very very high for us for usage and I I think we successfully it certainly went back down after the pandemic and people went back to work but we were able to not not lose that much over the course of the last few years in terms of in terms of active play the uh uh we've been trying to be creative about using the space in offseason uh weather hasn't been great for the wintertime for us to do snow activities up there but we've been trying to use that space in a way that makes sense but in all in all I think the the trend here is that our revenues have been have exceeded the expenses uh the the Panic that I get into as a manager a director of the recreation department charged with the Cherry Hill budget is that the uh you we're at times we feel like we're spending more than we're supposed to be spending and that's that's what has us yearly trying to be creative about ways to make the money that we're making and make more of it but at the same time uh uh come under the budget restrictions that I think are necessarily put on us and so uh you know in the last four four years uh the the the uh our we have we have now consistently been been making more money than we've been spending which is our ultimate goal yeah I noticed um Rey that if you if you add in the um the capital expenditures which um come from a separate budget but they're still part of the town uh expenses and The Fringe which also is covered under a different part of the budget then uh it doesn't look like you're making money you're actually losing a little bit um in the last actually you made money in 2021 even with with that uh factoring that in in 2022 you lost about 7 18,000 and 2023 about 58,000 and 2024 about 37,000 I mean it's not it's not paper losses in the in the sense that it's it's just kind of looking at at total cost if you will um you know I think I think it's you you've managed the budget very well uh this is a part of the budget that you know you don't see so to speak um so um it's it's hard to manage with that in mind and and other departments don't manage that way uh but I think in terms of total cost we you know we need to we need to think whether you know it it there's other things we can do to increase the revenues um you know beyond you know kind of operating a golf course um and so and I know you're you're thinking about that um but I think that we're not you know in my mind we're sort of we're kind of barely breaking even if you will uh right now um and uh I don't mind if we lose you know 10,000 20,000 uh a year that's that's the cost of doing business so to speak um and it's so it's it's really only you know one one year that's that it's been sort of out of whack so that's pretty good even when when you consider The Fringe benefit and the the U the uh Capital Improvements um Capital expenditures so I think I think you you're it's managed pretty well uh I think we just need to you know everyone needs to think about other things we can do there so that um we get those revenues uh higher if we can so anyway that's what my take is uh Council hanii um I I had a similar take to uh Bob when I did the uh capital and estimated Fringe on top what looked like you know a break even or an Enterprise that might be able to subsidize other Recreation departments uh suddenly becomes one that is not and I will say before 2020 those numbers were a lot worse with capital and and all of that and so I I am happy to see and and that since covid and that big rise in 2021 that you've been able to sort of keep those numbers those revenues as high that that bump we saw has sort of become a multi-year bump hopefully more permanent um but that the the question it leads me to um is one that is not um something that people like to ask which is should we as a municipality be running a golf course um and so I'd like to hear your take on a recreation department a municipality what what types of recreational facilities should a municipality bring in or do under its purview versus allow the private Market to do um what other uses would this land have if we were to say you know that that $60,000 that represents a loss when you get rid of when when you think about Fringe and capital on top of it if we can't start kind of breaking even that 60,000 can go somewhere else that's even within Recreation potentially right that maybe you'd have 60,000 more to to do something else with Recreation and so can you speak to that hopefully I made myself clear I think you did thank you um and first of all thank you uh again for noticing that it takes a little bit of work on our part to keep that to keep those Trends up uh I've got a staff that's been very conscious about it been very conscious about the numbers that come through there so I do appreciate your acknowledging that piece of it um I think I could answer that in two different ways uh one is that when I took it over I spoke to town manager about some of the challenges that I didn't know when I took the job were attached to the job um and and Cherry Hills budget was one of those things that so I I was inspired by the opportunity to try and challenge um the uh the way I see it is that Cherry Hill is a gorgeous resource it's a gorgeous asset that the town has and for whatever reason when the town made the purchase whenever when they brought when they brought Cherry Hill into the fold my my interest as the Director now is to is to you know allow that asset to grow as much as I can and to make money off of it uh um I don't make the decisions about what happens next with it I think it is it has been a headache for my staff and I in terms of how to do this responsibly how to do this in a way that that uh uh you know you know answers are are that that allows us to answer the the needs of the taxpayers to uh to provide quality Recreation to the people who go out there and use it um my my thing from the very beginning is it's it's under our umbrella we're going to find a way to make the most out of it as we can if it's if it if somebody was to come and tell us that it's not operable as much as I love the the the uh the I I love running a golf course it's a it's a really cool part of of the job that I've taken on um if the town told me that it wasn't in our best interest financially in terms of business sake then I could make a pivot away from it but uh as long as we have that asset as long as that's underneath Recreation we are going to continue we've already have I think we have some you know the next phase of trying to trying to build more Revenue out of there to offset some of the costs I think we're in the process of trying to put another idea on the table it might be very very uh strong for us but as long as we own that asset uh I and my staff intend to make the most out of it as we possibly can for the people of amers for the golfers of Cherry Hill and all the people who use that space um uh and but then the second way that I would answer that question is that uh you why are we in the business of doing golf other than the fact that we have it and it's better to do something with it than to do nothing um why are we in the business of doing golf I think that uh uh you know there's I've I came in at the late end of the conversation I've only been in this conversation for a small number of years as it's been going on long since before I got in um uh I think golf is more than I think there's the one thing that I would like to make sure that it's clear for the finance community and everybody else is that it's not Cherry Hill is not a course that operates for the town Elites it's not a place that that that uh you know big money comes in to sort of do big money stuff I think part of when we think of golf we think of golf as being sort of one of those those specialty Elite sort of activities we saw during the pandemic just how important it can be for recreational activity I think it's a I think it's a really really it's a different way of doing Recreation than a lot of our other programming I think it's a I think it's an engaging way to to meet members of our community if you go out there and run through the parking lot you will see you will see uh sort of a a really interesting cross-section of all a bunch of people who don't do other things with the town it is a relationship with the colleges uh one the ways that we've raised uh Revenue here is in by addressing College memberships and trying to build in membership packages that allow more and more college students to use the space as many challenges as that may bring us also we're using more college students in in north amorist where that uh where the you the the demographics of north amest have been changing uh as as they expand and get more and more college kids in we've been we 've been basically reaching out and and connecting in with that College Community in ways that I'm sure that Cherry Hill has done that before but we're trying to meet The Changing Times with with with a in a way that speaks to to Amorous needs and Amor interests um it is of course it's health and Recreation it's it's it it is a way to get out if if people are golfers you know that it's not just going out there and and uh you know passively you know doing something it it is is a way for people to continue to stay active it's a way for people to continue to stay healthy long into long beyond the time where we start retiring from other sports that we play and I think that's a I think that's a really really positive thing about why we it it has such a a strong value and and lastly I think uh you know it's not the same thing I know it's not the same thing but we do heavily subsidized things like Aquatics which we're very very fortunate for I think it fits a mission I think that golf also fits a mission it's a different Mission but I think golf also fits an important mission that we have as a town have of of of reaching out to people who can use this space who can use who can use this for active Recreation um we we subsidize things like swimming in a way that I think makes us better and nobody questions that nobody asks about that I don't want to say nobody we do have we do have to answer that question but uh we we're we're you know we know that because it speaks to a group of people kids and families uh it's a it's a at least to some significant degree is a it's a life skill it's a it's a life preservation skill these are these are reasons why the pool doesn't get the same sort of stress and pressure uh but we know that we know that we also do we are in the business of providing Golf and providing this leisurely activity providing this providing leagues providing an access to the asset that the town has in a way that I think makes amorist strong um and so I'm not I I I will defend it because it's mine I will defend it because it's something that we that we operate that I think we're doing a decent job of and we can continue to do a decent job of that uh I know it's a it's a stressor for for me at the end of the fiscal year every year because of where we should be and where we're where we're going it's a stressor for me because we've reduced staff as a part of uh you know we've we've made Cuts there to try and protect our Revenue we've made Cuts there which put a lot of strain on the people who work there on the grounds keeper on the on our on our ground staff and on our on our uh uh clubhouse staff we've we're putting more and more strain on the people who operate and have to live in that world uh and so and so as much stress as it gives us we think that we're doing we're we're we're bringing in money we're doing the best of our service that we possibly can and so uh you know I defend it because it's ours but I also defend it because I think it fits a mission that that that we can all get behind how Kathy um I just want to speak to that Ray because I agree and Mandy if one thing you should realize is CPA money helped buy this so it's going to be S it's not like there's an alternative use like a big apartment building the other thing about the land is it's really wet um and at certain times of the year uh whether you walking it or golfing it you want to wear your your high boot um because you sink into it but it is used by people who walk it's not just used by golfers all year round there are people out there playing with kids playing with their dogs so when the golf course closes they have to actually protect the teas gay you can talk to this because the greens they have to because it's getting so much foot traffic and when we're lucky enough to have snow it's amazing amount of cross country screen and sleds who go out there so this this we don't have anything quite like it and I can imagine if we didn't have golf we would have this really tall grass and we'd have puddles of water everywhere so it's it is a big resource so I was one of the ones who asked for this review because when I was looking at the end of the year quar reports we're making money until we add back Capital INF fringes and the other thing people should know about capital is because other golf courses are going under reay's been able to find used equipment so we're we're getting we're getting things really cheaply like greens mowers um and so the the staff who were doing a terrific job so I just want to speak to it as a a resource that I've watched the apartment buildings up on the North side of town advertise the fact that they've got M River and a golf course as a why you should want to live up here um um with families with kids and little kids are out there so it's a resource so I didn't see the numbers Bob you just cited on Capital and fringes because there's not a lot of fulltime staff so I was I know it's not in the regular revenue and expenses but I wasn't sure quite where that calculation that turned you know 30 30,000 Plus or 60,000 plus into a negative but we're right on The Fringe of being near to break even if you don't if you don't do Capital expenses at all and if you just do the maintenance costs yeah the so that's that's all I want to say I think it's a pretty amazing resource that that the management of it the expense line has not just stayed down but it's lower than it used to be you know there's a real b a management of our expense because there's volunteers Who come out there's a huge number of people who come out on cleanup day to clean up twigs and leaves um so it is a valued resource yeah so um it Athena sent around a second spreadsheet that had the Fringe numbers in it maybe you just okay I didn't I didn't see that one yeah okay you should have it okay Andy yeah uh I guess a couple things one is uh the question of C capital is a hard one for any budget and this one is the one we speaking about because it's not something that happens that you make all of the purchases on an annual basis you're talking about equipment you might buy one piece of equipment that is a number of years so that it's not an even numbered that works across all all budget years because of that fact um I think that the second thing that I just want to note U Kath he mentioned uh it was required with CPA money I don't think that's correct because I don't think we had CPA money back at the time it was acquired but I um Dave may get to this question or be able to answer it um my recollection because I was member of town meeting still and that when we made that acquisition uh was that there was a uh grant that was a state grant that had to do with buying for recreational purposes and um that there is a restriction on the use of the land that it has to be used for recreational purposes uh which um the and I assume that that's um an obligation that continues with the land um the U that opens up another question that I had is whether there are other recreational um uses that we can make of that land and I thought about it having to do with the forever um challenge to find a location for pickle ball as to whether um that's something that should be considered if the Stanley um Street um uh thean Park doesn't work out is location and we had set aside CPA money whether uh because there is Recreation land and parking facilities and whether that's a possibility that anybody has given any consideration to and um the last thing that I'll just uh since I'm covering tons of topics I did did seem that uh the projected 25 budget looked a little worse than prior years as far as the U balance between revenue and expenses and but uh whether that is anything that we can make any state is a concern at this point because obviously um it's a year in progress and so it's based on projections and reality so those are what my comments are and I'll turn it back okay uh Dave thank can everybody hear me yeah thank you Bob I I don't know how deep a dive you want to go on this today I know it was supposed to be a little bit shallower but um you know I I think we're all happy to come back at a future date if we wanted to do a deeper dive I think this has been a good conversation lots of good points made um just to answer Andy's question um I don't have it right off the top of my head but um I believe it was either a self-help Grant or land and water conservation fund grant that uh paid for the bulk of the purchase of um of Cherry Hill some years ago and uh Andy was correct I mean there's there's no requirement to run a a municipal golf course there or a golf course of any kind uh long term it's just the land is permanently protected um I I I won't go into great detail but suffices to say that you know finance and Ry and I and Paul have had many conversations about Hickory through the whoops sorry Hickory Cherry Hill uh Through The Years um and I think you know to Mandy's question you know uh should we be in the golf business I think that's kind of a fundamental question that that we need to continue to look at you know year in year out um Paul has charged Rey and myself and others with with um looking a little deeper at that question and looking at uh pulling together a group I believe Ry has mentioned this at his Recreation Commission meetings but pulling together a group to really look at at everything you know top to bottom at um at Cherry Hill the finances uh opportunities for alternative Revenue stream uh long-term capital needs um you know what is our commitment long-term to running a golf course there I know that in many conversations and even here today Ry has talked about the reduced budget Cherry Hill and the demands on staff and the pressure on staff and I think that's a real fundamental question for me is Cherry Hill sustainable both financially and from a staff standpoint over the next five or more years um what is you know what are the capital needs what are the capital needs looking five years 10 years down the road um could the same kind of service be offered by the private sector at Jerry Hill um and still have recreational golf offered as an opportunity for North ammer with all the other amenities I.E what hiking walking uh bird watching running um and Winterfest and things like that so I think Ray and I have to kind of double down our efforts to pull this working group together with Paul and really look at you know what does the next five to 10 years look like at Cherry Hill so you know I'm committed to doing that with Ry and I think it'll be very instructive to kind of get a full picture and come out with some sort of report at the end of that with a recommendation through the town manager say to the council or as part of you know a future budget year so that's kind of um and and of course we would be working with the finance team with Melissa and Holly on that as well um but that's kind of what my interest is in in looking at that long term My worry is that what happens when staff turns over what happens when we get retirements what happens can we hire people um and expect the same kind of commitment that we have there at now with a very small staff so sustainability of that operation is kind of fundamental to me or for me so that's what I'll be looking at thanks thank you uh Bernie yeah I'm um fond of quoting Mark Twain when it comes to golf and u i i he said it was a good walk spoiled right uh and I I know that we have the ghost of of Larry Kelly who still haunts the haunts Cherry Hill and it needs to be exercised and Ray I want to congratulate you for all the efforts you've been making I mean golf is a tough business to be in and David I think your question about could a a private sector offer a golf program I think Hickory Hickory Ridge answers that we own it um it's it's tough and I I really want to uh commend Ray want to commend you uh and Dave zc as well for the the kind of attitudes this is displayed here because providing a valuable service to the town making it available to all comers who live in the town makes the town more attractive it makes the town more valuable and it builds a commitment to the community so um all power to you and making Cherry Hill work if it doesn't work I trust that you and your team will come up with some pretty good Alternatives that continue to meet the needs of of of those of us who live in town so thank you thanks Melissa I just wanted to say um in terms of the um budgeted Revenue um I know that my history in the past and I hope Holly can confirm this sem me is that we tend to be fairly conservative on um Revenue um budgets especially in departments like a golf course um where a lot of the revenue is seasonal dependent like what's the weather like this golf season and so you really we always make a low estimate and you know we always hope and I'm sure Ry is working very hard diligently to surpass that number but we always try to make a conservative estimate um just to be safe um as to what we we really think we can get in the worst weather conditions um in a golf course um because Golf Course is so weather dependent thank you ol well that was exactly part of what I was going to say um is exactly that you know we have not raised our Revenue um estimates very much simply because it is very very very dependent upon the weather and weather in New England as everybody knows is certainly changing and we don't know if that's going to continue or if we're going to have you know major floods again and folks will not be able to golf and a couple other things I just wanted to sort of clarify um uh some sort of questions were asked about the fringe benefits and the capital and so with the Fringe um again we don't necessarily allocate out folks fringe benefits to their departments so I used basically just a 10-year average of What the towns you know per every dollar of salary it's x% of fringes um most of the folks there are part-timers so those fringe benefits could be slightly lower than what that estimate is um but again the vast majority of French benefits is based on folks health insurance um choices and you know one more person adding a family health plan health insurance to um you know to our expenses could could change drastically um and with the capital items they um Andy was exactly right some of those um Capital items especially in the earlier years where you see smaller amounts um there was a point in time where we were actually leasing to own some of that equipment so equipment would be broken out over a three-year period you know say instead of going out and spending $30,000 for a bower in one year we would spend 10,000 in one year 10,000 in the next year and 10,000 in the following year to try to level some of those out um back in the um you know probably about 10 years ago we utilized more uh lease payments because it was easier and cheaper for us um and um so that that is exactly why some of that capital is broken out the way it is with some smaller figures in some years it may have been one piece of equipment that we financed over a three-year period so just wanted to clarify those couple of things yeah and and Holly I just so uh I I certainly understand that we that normally Fringe is not a a attached to each department budget I I I understand that and I was just trying to it's just very helpful to see it to get sense of what the the total cost is but I I I understand that and Ray you mentioned something that really struck a chord with me and that is the demographics of the people that are golfing at Cherry Hill I think if we could get some more information on that I know you don't have it offand but you know it may it may only be anecdotal I don't know but I if we're really serving a broad demographic range within the community I think that's something that's important to know um and uh I think if Dave if if you know you look deeper dive into into the golf course if you could try to gather some of that information I think that would be very helpful for people to know um that you know if if we're not just serving one narrow slice of the the community we're serving a broader spectrum of people um any other comments or questions no actually it's been very this been very helpful thank you Ry and David and Melissa and uh Holly for your comments um are you that's all that we have for our agenda there was one item I want wanted to bring up and that is I will not be able to attend our next meeting which is scheduled for the 17th um I'm coming back from vacation on that day and I might be in town at two o'clock but probably not um um my flight gets in around noon time um so it's unlikely I'll I'll be there um so one one question is can we move it to the following week would that work for everybody on the committee um um and you can you can shoot me an email if if you if you feel it it's not feasible otherwise we'll just postpone it a week um I don't really have any agenda items for that week anyway so maybe we can we can just cancel it uh if we don't have if there's nothing that's been referred to the committee um I mean I know there's some things we could do some more work on uh particularly the reparations I know Cath you've been working on that a little bit I've been playing with spreadsheets with that too but it's kind of premature to to to work more on that unless we just want to do it you know to sort of get a a sense of of what of what uh our options are what you know what options would look like um um but um anyway uh I don't think we need to discuss this but um if there's if there's any objections you know I unless there's some some serious objections I'd like to postpone at least postpone the meeting a week and maybe uh I'll a wind up cancelling okay um I will also write up um what we discussed today and send it around before I I disappear I'm GNA uh I start my vacation on on Saturday so I'll send it around to people beforehand uh so um uh you can uh you can review it and maybe I can get it to uh to Lynn uh in time to have it presented at next next council meeting um any other questions or comments see okay um sorry I hit the wrong thing uh okay I will uh entertain a motion to adjourn some mov second okay uh I vote I Andy I Kathy yes Council hanii I uh Tom what we normally do is we we ask uh the non-voting members if they support or they're uh they fail to support that was that was my uh worry I'm uh I'm I'm indicating support without voting Bernie I wholeheartedly agree all right all right everyone thanks a lot and thanks it was a very helpful meeting bye-bye thank you