so we'll give it a minute Nancy just for the attendees to populate okay okay uh welcome to this hearing of the historic district commission our commission acts under the ammer local historic district bylaw whose purpose is to Aid in the preservation and protection of the distinctive characteristics and architecture of buildings and places significant in the history of the town of amrest this involves a permitting system under which new construction and most alterations of exterior architectural features in the historic district require one of three certificates today we've got four different properties that are coming to hear from us and we're going to start uh we're doing these in the order in which they were received and we're starting with 280 Lincoln Avenue Nate would you make a presentation sorry it was um according to the legal ad it was 81 mcllin but you want to do oh I'm I'm just going in the order that they're listed under the packet uh 81 mlen came first that's fine we can go with that one first so if there's anyone here from 81 mclen you can raise your hand you'll be asked to become a panelist so the screen I guess evidently the screen goes black for a second and then you'll come back so don't worry okay so uh alen think is gon is here yeah um Nate did you want to make say anything first uh no I mean this is uh you know they the applicant had been here before the commission to change their garage to change the roof of their garage and a few things and uh lighting wasn't included at that time so this application is to for exterior lighting on the garage so it's not I that's pretty straightforward has everybody seen the pictures of the lighting uh I'd like to see them Alan if you want me to I can share the screen or if you're comfortable sharing um do you have a picture of the light yeah no if you want to do it that's fine so this yeah so this is the existing garage and locations of electrical and here's the proposed new lighting yeah the the garage has been changed so it actually looks much nicer than what you just showed us and those lighting fixtures look very nice I agree I agree and the the stealth ones those are the ones that come on and off when uh somebody walks into the backyard or are they on all the time uh they' come on when somebody walks in the backyard and the electrician was able to find the exact same Mak model as was on the garage previously M okay so it's only the there's a light by the door and then we installed a new door on the in this video in this perspective on the back left of the garage and there'd be identical light there as well okay I think the the garage looks very nice uh the lights look nice to meet uh do any of the panelists have questions they would like to ask no no okay uh are we ready to approve this project uh Karen oh I'm sorry Bruce you had a question oh I was just going to make a motion to approve I was thinking this is a what's the wording of this this is just to approve uh a supplementary request yes for for new lighting yeah we could ask if there's any public comment uh just there's a number of public here yes I guess that's true we should do that is there any public comment if you have any please raise your hand I don't see any hands no one's raising a hand okay uh Bruce um this is this is a um done at a public meeting so this is not a public hearing we've had the hearing and so forth so this is really just a this is actually a new it's a new public hearing just for the lighting oh okay so we have to move to acceptance we determine that uh move that uh determination of appropriateness uh be rendered so far as the lighting is concerned and therefore I guess also move to close the public hearing uh second okay uh we'll move to a vote then um I vote in favor uh Steve yes Bruce yes Karen yes and I approve also so uh we are granting you the certificate of appropriateness Alan thank you for coming again to see us about these things all right thank you very much uh what's the second one Nate 58 Sunset okay do we have anybody here from that looks like Chris is here okay and no do do you want to make them panelists yeah you'll be asked to be promoted to panelist hello can you hear me yes great hi so I'm Chris with Oxo design build I was the designer on this project so yeah Noah's coming in a minute little slow right now yeah Noah is also with o design build he's a head of our design Department registered architect hi folks hello thank you for coming both of you uh so would you like to speak about this request sure um so we're looking to replace some of the windows um I had submitted plans uh which hopefully have made it to you all yes and looking to replace the windows in keeping with the um existing style um on the front of the house we're looking to change the two on the upper left to more of a cottage style great thank you yep exactly those two there um and then on the bottom right we're looking to replace exact same size style gr pattern um and just adding frosted glass to the one on the left uh the one on the right um is just in really bad shape so we're looking to replace that and then I believe Nate are you sharing your screen I am yes yeah great thank you um could you scroll down or are you going to we could do this elevation maybe yeah that sounds great okay yep so uh none of this is visible from the public way but you can see on the main block of the house uh we're replacing the basement windows uh in the same style as everything else on that facade or on that wall of the facade and then back to the left so this was yep on the first floor section there uh that was a sun room uh that we have expanded to um living space and so we're adding some sunro windows there uh the windows on that block of that previous Edition did not have any grills so we're going with that style there and then same on the basement below the basement level so that was an existing covered patio um so we looking to add Windows there again with no grills thank you Nate same thing this is the other side so right in the center uh Mark number 54 yep thank you so that is the existing kitchen addition a previous kitchen Edition uh we're looking to add another window uh just to promote some symmetry there so exact same uh size style and Grill pattern as the existing just mirrored across that wall and then over to the right down in the uh basement Edition area yep looking to add a window there uh with the grills and then again on the sun room another one of those uh slider windows and then Nate if you wouldn't mind scrolling down yep thank you so now we're at the back of the house um so we'll start up top on that Dormer um replacing three Windows there um with casements but keeping the existing uh size shape and Grill pattern sorry casement and uh fixed windows and then down at the bottom um kind of behind the sck staircase there mark 77 replacement window in keeping with the size and Grill pattern and then over on the right same thing two marks 77 and then in the middle you know this is that same uh basement expansion and what was formerly the screen porch into sun room um you can see up above on the second floor this previous addition that had occurred um you know they went with windows with no grills so we're keeping with that style here but this is also not visible from the public way but just while we're at it we may as well look at it all and then for siding on this area back here uh you know this addition that was formerly the screen porch and the coverage patio of the basement um we'll be going with the Hardy architectural collection uh fine sand panels uh which is what they have on that smaller uh Dormer on the second floor uh that has the the deck to the left of it in the screen here yeah so the existing great yeah so the existing is stucco um around back where they had done previous editions they used the Hardy uh product that I mentioned so we'll just be matching that right so this is the north side so this is where the new window will be exactly that back of that was mentioned is only visible at a pretty um tangental angle when you're like you know two houses down on the street so this the back addition that was sorry where um that we were mentioning here that comes out is really only visible at a pretty big angle so even here you can't see it uh but it is slightly visible so it's under review by the commission okay uh do we have questions from the panelists uh Bruce so uh um the purpose for the uh the all the new windows is it is it uh it seems that uh to except on one or two occasions where like the kitchen for example where the additional window is being added for some kind of uh design purpose uh but the bulk of the windows are being simply replaced um do I and presumably because the existing windows are failing or you want to improve the Zone performance or some reason like that is that the purpose that's correct that's sorry to interrupt yeah that is the main purpose um we are also going to be engaging with a historic window uh restoration contractor to restore all of the other existing windows in the house that are able to be restored um but those ones in particular are in pretty bad shape um and so the most cost-effective and productive course of action was to replace them in kind okay any sounds pretty pretty impressive are there other questions from the panelist um do we have any comments from our audience uh looks like Ken Rosenthal wants to make a comment sure Ken you can unmute yourself thank you I'm Ken Rosenthal I live at 53 Sunset Avenue directly across the street so I'm probably the one who has the most uh consistent view of this property they're doing a lot of work a lot of hard work and as far as this particular application is concerned I want you to know I have no objection to it and uh and I think that's all I have to offer thank you thanks sorry are there any other comments uh Bruce I think if I we had a um an earlier application for this project a few weeks ago it was to do with lighting and so and so I visited this site then and uh it did seem as though this was as Ken says a very deliberative kind of so um based on what we've heard and what we've heard previously and and what I at least have seen I uh move that a certificate of appropriateness be uh be approved be awarded uh for the scope of work window replacement as presented um and findings consistent with the um sections 8.1 and two of the of our bylaw do I have a second a second Karen um I think grea said oh am are we voting now we're voting sorry yes grea yes Steve yes uh Bruce uh and I also uh approved granting this certificate so you will have your certificate of appropriateness and thank you for bringing the project to us great thank you all very much I just want let you know as well Nicole Miller is now on the telephone and I can unmute myself um I've now been listening on I know how I look whatever you you look like a telephone uh would you care to vote on this project um yes I vote yes thank you very much uh okay uh you have your certificate of appropriateness we appreciate your coming before the commission and uh sending these nice designs to us great thanks so much for all your time thanks everyone thank you everyone I think the next one is to ad Lincoln is that right Nate yes um have anybody from this I think it's Pat yeah is anyone here from 28 yes okay uh Patricia Stacy is here and I'll just get everything ready hold on I thank you for coming Patricia uh thank you for having me I don't know whether you wanted to present this or Nate uh what's better uh so I'm sorry about the grass behind me I very attractive it just sort of popped up um Nate would you be willing to show the the photos that I submitted yeah so we could start with let me just I don't want to jump around too much the um yeah so here are the plans and uh you know what what's being proposed is this Dormer Edition on the south side of the roof for attic access and then this existing window right now is a double window and it's proposed to become a a three you know three Windows a same size opening and so um these are the plans showing everything as far I know as far as you know I know there's no other changes so here's the front of the house with the existing window and then the side of it which is you know difficult to see but the dormo would be up you know up here so Patricia I don't know if you anything else to add to that or uh not really um no I think that that was a very efficient way to describe it thank you uh do we have uh questions from the panelists Bruce um the the Dorma um is the only essentially new thing I guess uh and the siding material uh that is proposed for the so-called cheek which is the the vertical triangular uh sides of dormas on either side and probably around the windows is that a matching uh um clav to the rest of the house is it is it wood or presumably a perhaps a um something more durable than wood what are you proposing to use that um that's a good question but it would the it would either be wood or something more durable like a Hardy Board I mean but it would it would be meant meant to match the clab birs it would be to match so we would understand that it would look very similar and probably indistinguishable at distance yes um I think the I'm puzzled as to I mean I don't think it affects my decision about the appropriateness particularly but I'm puzzled as to why uh you would choose to uh take out the the wind the double window that's sitting there nicely and seemingly agreeably enough and replace it with a triple what's what's driving that decision um that's a complicated situation it I began working with a woman who was um a who was a designer and she was very enthusiastic about this as a choice um and I thought it was I thought it was pretty and so I said okay um and she actually it was a bizarre this was like several months ago and she encouraged me to buy this window so I now own this window and don't let it that's fine I can de I can deal with buying a new window if you deem that I it should be double I think it's kind of pretty so I'm you know it's a fine it's a fine solution for me um but it was just a misunderstanding she was originally from Maine she didn't understand that I was going to need to have it approved and I at the time I was just you envisioning this process um kind of abstractly so um I'm you know I I will bow to whatever you decide well I guess I should say that I regard it as Quirky but I don't think I would descend to judging it as being inappropriate I I would prefer the double window simply because it's there and because it's uh it looks nice and it's would save you money um and uh and I don't think you need don't think you need to put three windows in to get my vote um but I don't think putting three windows in will um will lose my vote either but I I I was curious because it it seemed like an odd thing quirky but The Narrative of historic buildings over periods there's all sorts of quirky things that happened and to some extent that's what makes for interesting stories about old buildings so um I'll stop there do we have any other questions from other panelists do we have any questions from um attendees uh if not do I have a motion to approve this certificate of appropriateness how about someone other than me this time okay I'll take the honors I move to Grant this property and certificate of appropriateness do I have a second a second thank you uh okay uh Bruce I approve Steve yes uh Nicole yes R yes uh and Karen yes and I approve it also so uh Patricia we're very happy to extend to you the certificate of appropriateness and and I like your three windows I think it'll look nice I also like your siding the the top siding being different than the bottom is really pretty thank thank you for your help I really appreciate it I didn't mean to interrupt you Nancy though no that's fine I think we're we're all set with this one um and this brings us to our final project uh which is at 98 fearing uh so we have uh I think Charles Roberts is here and it looks like Tom REI is also here would like to be promoted sure and Jeff Squire I believe oh yes yes all right uh thank you for coming to our meeting um Nate did you want to begin by presenting this uh no I think we can let the applicants do that you know it's a proposal to put a new um 3unit structure in the back of 98 fearing with you know other site improvements with fence drainage infrastructure uh we made a site visit on Thursday of last week and I took some photographs that I uploaded to online packet um yeah I mean I think after and there was some supplemental information submitted by Charles so I think you know if they want to share their screen and walk through it then I can always you know chime in where needed okay I should I'm sorry I I uh should have said at the very beginning of this meeting that uh we have all signed uh disclosures that we are not influenced by uh our own uh proximity to these properties um that we've talked about today so I just want you to know that um and and I want to remind the panelists that uh we can only talk about things that actually affect the historic nature of the neighborhood the size the uh mass of these projects we can't talk about other uses and with that uh would one of you like to begin uh by presenting this project sure I'll start thank you I'm I'm Charles Roberts and I have Jess Squire with me here from virtual Design Group and Tom attorney Tom Rey from bacon and Wilson who's who's representing clients and um I will share my screen okay is everybody seeing the uh the cover sheet here are folks seeing the cover sheet yes okay great so this this is a 98 fearing Street this is a photograph of the of the house from the street I'll get into more detail as we go through here but just to start off with that image um this this is a a reminder of something we talked about 14 months ago uh back in February 2023 this was the a scheme that we were originally considering it was uh it was three duplexes um with uh with a total of six four bedroom units and we were and we were uh um tearing down the the existing garage here to to create more parking forther development and um and um we heard we got lots of good feedback from this board and we you know we we heard everything that was said and we've we' we've scaled this back now um to instead of three buildings it's now one building instead of six units is three units and it's a one four bedroom unit and then two three bedroom units so we've we've reduced it considerably um from I think 24 beds down to 10 so um significant reduction and and we think it we think it makes a better project and and we appreciate the input we've received so far from this board so with that I will um I will proceed on with our presentation so this is the subject site 98 bearing street with with it you know the in the bullseye there um during Street running east to west um Lincoln North to South just to get everybody oriented um this is the this kind of gives you a sense of the massing of footprint we're proposing relative to the the garage and the existing house and some of the buildings in the neighborhood um just so you can read the overall development pattern and uh and sort of get a sense of of the density in the neighborhood and some of these neighboring streets and and the impact of this uh this particular footprint relative to the the existing densities um these are these are a couple of shots um just to provide some context this 85 sparing Street just just down the street views into uh into the the back lot here so it's a a sort of a I guess it's a Greek Revival Farmhouse building facing on the street with back buildings and parking and sort of density happening behind the front of the street and a lot um this is a this is a view down uh uh 312 Lincoln Lincoln Avenue just as a remind you know reminder of sort of the density and the proximity houses to each other and that UMass is always kind of looming in the background it's a this is definitely a a neighborhood that's that's it's in a lot of ways like I understand the sensitivity is because transitional between what's overtly unass and then what sort of moves into to some of the more historic fabric of this neighborhood um couple of uh smaller houses over on on um Cosby Cosby Avenue just to again bringing in scale and Architectural character and it's typical of this neighborhood um uh 1517 Cosby Avenue another example of of a larger structure with a with with a existing house with a with with a kind of larger structure and garage and and you know car circulation and some you know activity in the back to towards the back of the house and in the back part of the lot um these are just some uh virtual Design Group put together this uh this GIS mapping just because we were curious what is what is the demographic of of of of housing types that we're seeing in this immediate neighborhood so these so this yellow Square here is uh is 98 fearing and the green squares show two family houses within within 500 feet of of our property so just mattering of two Family Properties um three families within 500 fewer but they but they are they are in existence um H mediums within 500 feet so I'm guessing that because I'm guessing that there are some condos that are also rentals because there's overlap between the condominium map and and the rental map um but this shows the condominiums in the neighborhood and then overall rental property so so again you know more more densely rental towards UMass this is like this is definitely a transitional Street lots of rental properties you know here um along H North Pleasant and I think it's it's kind of you know it talks about sort of the issues that we're dealing with and facing um you know in developing and and sort of the housing types we we look at for our properties in town here here's our here's our subject property 98 fering so this house was built in 1927 it's interesting because it was considered a contemporary at the time because the rest of the houses on the street were mostly Revival homes Greek Revival um I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know and and um but it was it was originally developed was a two family somewhere along the line it was uh it became a three family and it was a three family I believe even my clients purchased it so it's uh it's got a couple of different siding types shingles and clab birs it has a it has sort of a quirky window layout no two windows are really the same they a combination of double hungs and uh sort of oriented you know towards the street it has kind of a nice formal presentation that makes sense with these two blocks facing the street each having kind of a symmetrical sensibility As you move around the house the window patterns kind of change and there the the symmetry breaks down and it's really about providing light and air to the spaces within the building itself so it's kind of a interesting the way the architecture developed here um with a formal face towards the street and again it's sort of breaking down another thing about this house is interesting it seems like it's on the high point almost of the the south side of fearing street so you know it sits very tall on the site it's two and a half stories on top of a probably a 3 to four foot foundation wall and so it uh it's it has a lot a lot of presence on the street this is a this is a view of the house some I guess from the from the the Northeast looking looking down the driveway to the garage and back and then this next view here is a before and after so this is showing um the what our building is going to look like sort of peeking out and back I I'll I'll get in you know obviously more detail with this but um the the forms kind of break down with with a dormer and an eve that comes down and sort of matches the scale of the uh of the garage and really get a sense of the building being tucked in behind this existing house and working to minimize the impact on the street and and what is visible from the street works architecturally and building form with what's there with the garage and these Gables sort of trans you know uh melding in with the building shapes that we're proposing this this is a view um down looking down the corridor this is an existing Tree on the left which we're going to keep and this is an existing nice pine tree I guess it's a I don't know if it's a white pine or a spruce sure Jeff knows um and then the the aftershot uh is we're maintaining that the pine tree there's going to be a fence F six foot fence built in along here behind the pine tree and this is all planting they're going to be brought in and you you can just barely see the Gable form of of our house sort of poking out here between the uh the the existing Pine Tree in the existing house so just kind of do a you know before and after thing there so again with a with a with the building kind of set back 60 or 80 feet from the existing building the screening coming in the the overall impact on the street is greatly reduced this is a view down uh the yard the yard from uh uh Lincoln Avenue and um so what we're proposing is a line of baravi screening in here to screen the parking and also offer protection for the for this for the neighboring house with the way these trees are leafed out believe it or not our model is in there lurking in there but it really you can't really see it because of the uh existing garage and the screening we're bringing in and then and then the foliage that's there but I think what what's kind of nice about this shot is that it shows how the the parking area becomes screened from uh from uh from Lincoln and also from the from from the neighbors backyards and it helps kind of soften and mitigate the development on the an impact on the overall neighborhood this is a view of what we're proposing this is as you're coming down the driveway and just sort of veering left you see the the eve of the garage here on the right and this is the uh this is the building we're proposing on the left is the is the four uh the four bedroom unit it's uh it's in built in two stories um uh living on the first floor in one bedroom and then three bedrooms up above and then the this this part of the building over here is the is h two flaps two three-bedroom flaps to stack over one another you you you're coming through the front porch you're enter into a common vesle and up the stairs to the uh to the the upper level apartment apartment and then through uh uh straight on into the downstairs apartment and we were really working to drop the scale of this building I think porches are a great way of adding detail human scale architectural interest and character and you know help soften the mass I Al and also you know popping out Dormers to get Headroom in the second floor and and letting the eaves of the building drop down is another nice way of of of of softening the scale of the building um these are these are um unapologetically arts and crafts buildings um using combinations of of of Bor and Baton and clabber siding typical of arts and crafts buildings you know throughout and um tapered columns and and a nice generous Woodworking and trim and built up on the eaves and freeze boards along along the Dormers and then a a appropriately scaled um picture frame window trim we're we're there is order to our windows they're not random we're using we're we're trying to create more of a cohesive language here these are um all casements and awnings um detailed with with check rails to read like double hung windows but but offering the performance energy performance of a casement window as opposed to double hungs so you get the look of a double hung and the performance of a casement these are these helps just sort of give you a sense of the of the scale of the two buildings on the lot and the garage and kind of the distance separating in between and and the parking area in the middle um um again the existing garage the existing garage is going to be used as a uh bike storage and sort of garbage maintenance um utility shed so it actually has function and and becomes a actually an asset to the property I think because you know people have safe plac to store their bikes and the garbage is of the house and off the street so it's it's a good function for the building this is just a A View From the southeast giving a sense of the the proximity the buildings to one another this is a a 12C car parking spot parking lot here in the middle I'm sorry with a with one accessible space so 12 spaces one of them accessible overall there's three units in the existing house and three units in the proposed house so six units and uh 12 parking spaces this is a site section rendered site section again just giving you a a sense of the scale of the buildings as they move through the site and from the other side one something that we wanted to you know bring to everybody's attention is this this uh yard drain here which uh which which chef will talk more about for for managing store storm water on the property and we can get into that a little bit more further on down the road here these are the uh the architectural elevations so a lot you know a lot of the points I was bringing up when we looking at the renderings ring true here in terms of the scale of the Dormers and the materiality with the bord and Baton and and clabber and generously proportioned trim the overall Building height here is not to be too fine about it but it's 29' 4 and2 in um so that's 29t 29t 6 29 fo4 whatever to the to the peak of the building is roughly what we're what we're looking at here for for the height of this building materials are called out here um composite trim um fiber cement uh clabber um and Bardon battens and uh you know some some wood trim details here for these uh the these uh roof overhangs on out of the side entrances I I did correctly name these I got the elevation points correct Steve so thanks for pointing that out to me earlier um and then the uh the South and West elevations this is a little side porch um on the on the East Elevation that serves as the second means of egress for both of the uh the uh the three-bedroom units again it's a nice way of kind of dropping down scale and providing some coverage for folks um I wanted to try and and get a sense of I know there's like a lot of there's it's important to know what the scale of our building is relative to the existing building so I went out on the site and did did some measurements you'll see this this this survey Rod here is 14 foot6 High so I leaned it against the house in a number of these places locations and then was in the garage as well was able to scale the photo scale the photographs in my in our in our software and then and then get what I'm thinking a probably pretty accurate nominal height so I have a height to the peak of the the high point of the existing house so this Gable runs parallel to faering Street of 30 foot 8 Ines um and then as you're looking at the house you know from fearing street that lower sort of Dormer Bay that comes down is is 27 foot zero um so and then the Garage itself is about 19 feet so our building height is 29 foot6 plus or minus and these are about 30 foot6 so we're about a foot lower or close to being the same in height and I think it's I think it's it's important to remember that that this building is located 80 feet behind this building and so it's going to you know recede into the background and uh and again as I think those views demonstrated to be looked at really becomes you know a very secondary low impact um visually from the street and when you do see it it's working and it's tying in with the existing architecture in ways that I think are are interesting and and compatible and appropriate um I was asked to uh to show the comparative footprint so the existing footprint is 1230 square feet nominally we're proposing 2,10 square feet so roughly 800 square feet more um I think one of the things what one of the uh one of the strategies we're looking at with this building was was breaking it down into into pieces that are smaller so when you look at the width of the width of this building relative to the width of these Bays here the building does in spite of in spite of it's you know the fact that it's got at 800 foot greater footprint the scale of it breaks down and it's and and it reads intelligibly with the existing building and and those those those um front-facing Gable forms become I think I think compatible and and in scale with the existing building through that kind of through that move um these are just some examples of the siding looking at with the fiber cement Bard and bat and Below um uh clabber above and then freeze you know freeze board and cap Flash separating out the different um siding types horizontally and then the picture frame Windows very similar to the the materials we'd be looking at in our building um just another example uh of of uh Bor and Baton and cabber and and trim obviously ours is going to be great excuse me but you know similar composition of materials and trim trim language and vocabulary I'm a darker architectural style um asphalt shingle roof we' be proposing um you are the windows we're looking at um we're right now we're looking at uh Marvin um God they just rebranded it's the the Integrity window it's a it's a high performance fiberglass window fiberglass frame for to eliminate or help reduce thermal bridging again casement window for kind of air tightness and energy performance and uh and it's a quality window so that's what we're looking at for our our window package um here we are at the site plan so thought it would be nice to kind of walk through the building and the design and our thoughts about the architecture relative to the neighborhood and then let Jeff come in and talk a little bit about some of the site design ideas and I have I also have yeah so I have another one yeah I also have that section okay Jeff I want you uh great take it away I W repeat a lot of the information but yeah I think obviously the goal with with the overall site plan and project was to um to put the proposed building in a in a location on the site that wasn't um you know inherently obvious invisible from the street so being thoughtful to the way that's located rela to to site distances um and in places where some of those views you know were a little bit more open uh proposing um you know would would fencing um stockade fencing or or shrub plantings Hedges to to block those views um and help help buffer you know the the the new building um storm water management um we are dealing through um a couple of different there's a small rain Garden um adjacent to the to the new building and then a larger um uh storm water element um that he was just pointing to uh to handle the parking lot and essentially what we're proposing there is um just a small grass you know uh depression really um and they're on the the fearing Street elevation to hide you know any of the the yard drain or you know the the sort of unsightly nature of a you know small depression if if that was a a um if that was disruptive is to locate a stone wall along the front of the property with some um plantings behind it very reminiscent of what is occurring at some of the other residents um further um I think it's fur the east on on fearing street but there's a number of old Fieldstone walls um that line the front of the uh site and so this would that is is being proposed here as a way to hide you know any unsightly infrastructure if there was any but it's really very minimal the majority of it is um just subtle grading um and plantings new utilities are coming in off of fearing Street um and yeah I think I think really just trying to limit the amount of disturbance on the site and locate the building in a in a location that um wasn't wasn't going to be too disruptive to to the neighborhood was the primary uh consideration with the with the location so um plantings are are native um so I don't expect any issues um on that front so yeah I don't know happy to answer any other questions um this is that so this is this is a site section Jeff did this shows that um that kind of depression area in here which is me is a is a cment area for for storm water from the parking lot right Jeff yes correct yeah and uh so in the section here this is bearing streets down here and yeah stone wall yes it's kind of small here I don't know if I can zoom in or not yeah but it really is very yep very subtle depression with yep so the storm drain would be located there more or less correct and then um I have a couple images here can get to them you probably saw most of these because they were in the package but um this is this isn't onf Street this was this was just an example of Stonewall image that I found that's it's it's you know similar to the uh to the the the native Stone around here either the U the Goan stone or um there's another quy around here that has a similar sort of stone to it um this next this image here is is from down street so this is a this is this is this is like a stack um uh dry stack stone wall with some Landscaping behind it so similar similar to to that kind of a that kind of a wall with wall facing Street and then Landscaping behind and then the yard drain and and sort of depression sell behind that it it really is minimal impact on the street um let me see else El so this is what the yard drain looks like so it's it's not it's not like this Army Corp of Engineers cast you know thing sticking out of the ground all all the all the infrastructures below ground the catch Basin and this is all you'll all you'll see is this is this kind of 12inch diameter roughly 12inch diameter ductal iron grill and then uh I think I rather than end it on the on the on the drain if thought I would just end it with this image and uh yeah free to free to take questions I'm going to stop sharing okay okay uh grea just have a quick question and it's not about the proposal you're making but you bought the house in 21 but I looked at the view from Lincoln and that would have been really nice if you had screened the parking that is there now so that was just my little I thought well if they're proposing screen the parking maybe if they had done it already we could Envision it it would have been a nice thing to do for the Neighbors when you got it in um 2021 anyway that's just my comment uh other panelists Bruce simple clarification uh question um the the images you show of the house I can see um the Arts and Crafts uh uh insiration and so forth and it's all clear and I agree that you've succeeded in uh designing that building which is larger in footprint and probably in volume possibly in volume as well such that it doesn't look any larger than the front house um as we look at the siding um you don't seem to have corner boards on there so I had assumed that you were using shingles but I think you said not I think you said you were going to use uh um siding materials is that correct so is is is are you um have you just your images which are pretty thoroughly developed but they don't seem to have cornerboards on them so I'm wondering what they uh whether you intend to or or or then they haven't shown yet or whether there's some um weaving Arrangement that would cause you not to have corner boards no there's um there's first of all the the woven corner boards are I mean the woven the woven um corn ERS for cloud birs is a really classic and beautiful detail that used to be really a lot easier to do when Cloud birs were made out of wood but now that we're using fiber cement Cloud Birds you weave these you you there's a there's a aluminum trim cap you can buy that kind of joins the corner together and then it paints out and basically disappears so it it's a way of replicating um a woven cedar or or wood clabbered cornerboard in fiber cement so you you you were able to attain that that look without corner boards so to be clear you're not proposing corner boards uh what what what we see is what we get right good [Music] thanks um well I just want to also talk about um our job is to is to look at the mass and the scale and the relationship with the neighborhood and to protect the historic neighborhood and I don't see this development doing that at all I think it is out of scale some of the pictures you showed are not in the local historic district but the ones but this is part of the local historic district and after we met so nicely with Charles thank you for meeting with us I walked around the neighborhood and you can see the you will be able to see the out of scale um in relationship to the neighborhood and the giant Mass from Lincoln and then on Cosby you can see it and then going down page there it rise it w rise again so I don't I think that from my point of view it doesn't meet any of those criterias I think if you came back and had the garage There's A really lovely little garage on the Clen that is an apartment that I would be in favor of I think that would be fitting it with the neighborhood so that's my thought thank you other comments I have to say I'm in cl to agree with grea uh that it's out of scale with the rest of the neighborhood in fact it's out of scale with the house that's in front of it it's got a larger footprint it is just a tiny bit shorter and in the pictures that you've drawn and shown uh you don't show it rising to just within uh less than a foot of the house in front of it you make it look like it's about half the size of the house in front of it which it is not um that to me that's a real concern that it would really change the way this neighborhood looks um to suddenly have such a large piece of the backyard taken up with another structure uh GRE uh Karen um uh first of all I thank you for this can you hear me yeah yeah um thank you for this presentation it was uh really detailed and your architecture I think does a beautiful job of trying to Echo um what's there but I agree with uh grea that what we have to look at is preserving the historical nature of the neighborhood and if you go we it is a it's a delicate balance because as you so well pointed out with uh showing what are three family houses and by the way there are three family houses there aren't six family houses and they're not family houses again they're designed as we can see by the residents of this three family house designed to be just a single people unrelated people that are living in it so the whole scale of it means that it becomes much more of a commercial um uh a commercial Enterprise a commercial Enterprise in the middle of a historical neighborhood which is trying struggling to maintain its identity uh and we worry about when we the president and of of you know utilizing all this ground space and putting in your very lovely design that's going to tip the scale and then the other residential areas are going to go the same route and the the the Neighbors on the left and the right there that are whose yards are right next to it there's no way that you can protect the you know their privacy from some housing that's high an arbor V Ed is not going to prevent anybody on the third floor of looking over at the swimming pools that are on the left and the right so we're concerned about the massing but what you've done I mean I compliment you on it you've done a beautiful job um they hired very talented architect to do this it's just our our mandate is to preserve the historical nature of the neighborhood and that's what we're concerned about thank thank you K other comments from the panels um yeah I can add to that I think um definitely trying you know the the plants and fences are going to kind of mask what you're seeing from the street but you don't just get that straight on angle I think that's where we there there is no way to not be able to see the much larger parking lot and the additional building is you know even even though you know things are um being put into place to not see it as um starkly it it's still going to you can still see the top over over a six foot fence and things like that so I think the um especially kind of not even straight on but at the angle through the driveway going up fearing and especially it was very um dominant when you were looking on Lincoln through the backyards of the other homes that it would be straight on um to the parking lot into the additional building so again I feel that these additional structures the additional parking lot is much more of a commercial uh feeling rather than a residential feeling um that the property is being turned into um and just the I mean from a realtor's perspective of kind of moving from that people can purchase uh four unit and below with a residential uh mortgage versus once it gets larger than that you're into a commercial mortgage is again just changing that notion of what this property is in the middle of a local historic district uh neighborhood that is trying to you know stay as a residential neighborhood that I think is is really changing the property substantially um I what I personally I'm not saying that it's cost effective but I personally would like to see that garage turned into one unit and if you're wanting to add a unit add it to the one garage I'm not saying it'd be cost effective I'm just saying that you have an existing building that could be worked into one additional unit um that would obviously not give you anywhere near the income that um this unit you're proposing does but that's one way to kind of work with the existing property that you have I think it's likely that as a commission we would be more inclined to accept uh a conversion of that garage into an apartment than this large structure in the backyard uh it's interesting I mean I mean the the garage would have to be I mean just I I totally understand what you're saying but just from a practicality point of view the garage would have to be completely dismantled and then a foundation has to be poured and then at that point it's going to be cheaper to rebuild the garage with new materials than it would be to try and repurpose the old materials and so it would be you would essentially be building a new structure that replicates the existing garage to do that so it's just right or wrong just logistically it's kind of an interesting interesting problem Steve uh yeah um I agree with all the Commissioners about how big the building is but uh my big but I also want to applaud the um I think this is much more contextual than before and I appreciate your efforts and downsizing it the parking lot is just inappropriate for the rest of the neighborhood there's no parking lot that's within the district anywhere near that size and I think it's I don't know if this is within the purview of the commission but I do feel it's incumbent upon me to mention this the one with the egress to the parking lot uh which is going to be for 12 cars but there's you know the kid there was when we were there spaces were used in front of the garage so really comes up to 15 or 16 the erass is only one car with and when we were there it was a mess I mean there were people like saying could you move your car and then you couldn't go in and out and and particularly on such a busy street to have a traffic jam coming from that such a big parking lot in a residential neighborhood is not only problematic but it's really dangerous and it is something that I plan to bring up with the zba uh because when we were there it was like can you back up can you do this can you it was like just a mess and that's just during the 10 minutes that that we were there uh so I would strongly urge you to reduce the um parking um uh that's what I say can I can I speak brief that yeah um so right now the pavement the the parking in the back first of all I don't disagree with you it was a little chaotic because we were there we all had our cars the people were living there so that was a little bit of an unusual circumstance I think but but in the the back right now is is pretty much undefined chaos when it comes to our cars and circulation you can park in front of the garage but then you're blocking people behind the house the pavement comes right up to the house like with to within 18 inches and so there's there's there's there's very little actual traffic control that happens and so and so while while we may be creating more dedicated parking spaces the I think I think in the end it actually becomes more controlled because because there are defined parking areas defined dials of circulation defined turning turning radi with uh with um with with the way that the uh the landscape Island peninsulas are are working and so and so um I think in terms of what's actually going on in the parking lot this design makes things a little bit safer and doesn't make the driveway any wider but I think it makes the way cars come and go and park and circulate within that site less chaotic Bo um I'm uh I declar myself on the architecture and I as of a number of us uh but I do agree with Steve particularly um uh on the both the question or on on the on the fact that you reduced the scale uh from what it was when we came in which we all found kind of absolutely astonishing and and were somewhat Gob smacked at the such an idea would be presented and so forth with the hope of getting some appropriateness and maybe that that was to condition us to be more agreeable to something that's uh less uh invidious than the one that was uh put before us some time ago so the question then I think uh uh is is is as far as appropri of this project is concerned as the scale um and I think I agree with you Steve that it's more to do with the parking lot than the buildings the parking lot is a is a Consolidated uh s Le paved uh mass of asphalt it's not broken up well and it it could be I suppose but that would make it worse because then they there would be more asphalt uh getting to parking areas distributed around the property which uh so you can't go that route I see that so you're reduced to a single large uh efficient from the point of view of traffic movement and an economy of pavement uh but it it it's nonetheless a large um uh object and so the question that I'm wrestling with is uh what is the where does where does scale become appropriate with this and it wasn't appropriate with the 24 units and the question is a bedrooms and is it appropriate now certainly one building rather than four or three I beg you pardon and so forth is heading very much in the right direction and I as I've said earlier I think that so far as the buildings are concerned I'm um I I I can be more or less satisfied but I think that it's still generating an inappropriateness so far as the scale uh of the parking that's necessary to support uh essentially six units um and uh I don't know what you can do about that other than make it smaller uh it seems to me that that it's it is still a transgression from a point of view of appropriateness in terms of the scale and particularly the scale as as as uh as as represented by the size and and uh of that parking area because it really isn't something that you see around the the residential area of of the historic district it's I just it's a it's a commercial scale a commercial appeal and and of of that uh that's just seems to be still Troublesome to me um that's enough for now Karen yeah I agree and even though if these cars are um being able to move in a more efficient way not as chaotic you're still adding um to the three units now you're you're adding three more so you're going to have so many more cars and and visitors and it just it's it just doesn't work I think I would urge I like Nicole's suggestion that in terms of fitting in with the residential nature of this historic district the neighborhood it would be so much more to your advantage and I think that the the um you know the commission would maybe be open to be not keeping the uh the existing garage but replacing it so that economically maybe you have one more unit and you already have a three Family House on that that lot which fits in so well and with the neighborhood um that would be something that I could support uh much more enthusiastically than what is now proposed r i I guess um I don't see my job as doing a compromise with your first proposal because that was your first proposal but it didn't fit at all in our job which is to look at um to be part of the local historic district and to look at the mass and the scale and the relationship and the neighborhood and preserving the historic um protecting the historic district so I'm putting the first aside as um totally and but I think this one is out of scale the relation it it doesn't work for me at all either I agree with Nicole that there is a nice garage that it has been converted on mlen that I had a friend live in for maybe 20 years so a long-term tenant loved living there small space fit in the neighborhood but beyond that I don't see a commercial six family unit coming into the local historic district so that's my thought Nate yeah I just want to say that you know the the bylaw doesn't um you know uh it limits the review of say a parking area you know we we've talked about having some you know adding that and that's not in there yet but I think in so much as the parking lot uh drives the massing of the building or its relationship or location on the lot then the parking could be you know manipulated right so if the commission finds that the building could be moved to have a better scale or have something then you know the site design would have to change in response to that so I just want to reiterate that for the commission in the public that you know this isn't about the use of the property and who lives there it's really about the appearance appearance and um you know visible architectural features that you know and it's visible from as um people have said at least three possibly four streets so it's not just what's visible from fearing it's also Lincoln and Cosby and you know it's any public way uh even if that way is outside the district and so uh you know I you know if the commission has any clarifying questions or comments I mean I think that you know I've heard that it's too the building is too big I'd want to see is there anything else um I I'll say that there's about 20 attendees probably many of them might want to speak and so Nancy we could allow comment we could say maybe I just want to say maybe in like 10 minutes maybe we end uh comments or questions from the commission and we go to public comment but I just want to say that you know the the amount of cars doesn't necessarily isn't regulated by the Local hisor District in so much as it you know it impacts the other pieces of of the design uh you know the fencing is regulated the wall in the front you know any earthwork that's no longer at grade so there's a number of pieces that would be regulated in in addition to just that the building the new structure thank you Nate Steve Nate actually I'm surprised at what you just said because during our disc we were trying to create language to make it absolutely explicit that parking is covered but you told us commission several times that parking is covered according to your interpretation of the language so um I'm a little uh confused right now well it's regulated in the way I discussed it right so um not saying like oh well we don't think the number of cars is appropriate for the number of uh users of a property or nobody has said that but you know I think when we're saying that the the parking is too big or too small I think someone would be how does that relate to the structures on the property and the and the placement of it and so that to me that's how that's how we get you see a huge parking lot from the street that's that's something you can see from the street and that's something that you have told us is regulated by the bylaws but beyond that you know I just want to say once again I know this is not within the perview but I think it's something that the applicants have to really consider if there's only a one lane wide uh erress and there's cars going in and cars going out at the same time doesn't on a busy street that doesn't work and I know that isn't covered by us but it needs to be addressed but in terms of the actual size of the parking lot that's not um there's no uh precedent for that within within the um for on a lot that size for a um parking lot that size that can be seen from the street Bri I just want to say that I disagree with um The Proposal that we're a transitional neighborhood I think we're a long a longstanding family neighborhood and that's how I see us um I also think the house that you showed on Cosby as the example of another house in the neighborhood is a house that has a owner occupied with one rental unit so those are just my two comments I think we should uh start taking some questions from the attendees so uh Ken Rosenthal has raised his hand and would like to speak thank you I'm Ken Rosenthal 53 Sunset Avenue but I happen to have been the executive of the estate for John and richan fox whose house is right next door and it's a house that's been ignored in all this discussion that's 90 fearing a beautiful house that appears in the town records as non-owner occupied but that's misleading because the owner is a family member and the house is a familyowned family occupied house so that it is not a a house that's given over to student residences it's one that is a long-term Family House the the foxes wanted it that way when they died and we work very hard to get a family into that house the proposal here the best thing I can say for it is that  Riddler terrific Arch TS what they are providing for you and and and Mr REI is is a terrific lawyer but what they're providing for you is a a a a property that will now have six units by the town bylaw that means four people unrelated or allowed to live there and that will surely be uh six Apartments of students that means 24 students I submit to you that the parking lot as proposed is not going to be enough to accommodate them and their friends when they come which means that since there's no parking on bearing and I think none on I believe none on Lincoln nearby these visitors cars and maybe even some of the resident cars from time to time will be on the front lawn uh it's going to be very hard to do anything about that um and that's if if if the students who live there behave and don't take in additional residents which often happens as we know now we can't predict that people are going to violate the law but we know that this happens I'm very concerned about this because the the amoris community land trust and some of us are trying very hard to reserve neighborhoods as family neighborhoods so this is not a transition neighborhood in the view of many of us who are working very hard to preserve neighborhoods and I'm one of them I want to also comment about the intrusion into the backyard space of this uh res proposed residence the space back there that runs all the way to tan Brook and incl lots of propert lots of open space that have been preserved by the residences that are on Cosby and paage and bearing and Lincoln that space is now going to be intruded by not only this building but the pavement there and that's going to affect small wildli that live back there but it's also going to affect the way the neighbors behave back there and it's already been commented that this building will rise up above and therefore look into the backyards of any number of houses that are on Lincoln and and on Cosby and on Beering so as you can tell I think this is totally inappropriate um and I oppose it and I thank you for the time you've given me to make my uh feelings known thank you thank you Ken uh Melissa Ferris hi uh I'm Melissa Ferris I'm here with my husband Graham Caldwell we are at 285 Lincoln our back yard is directly where we would be looking into the backyard of 98 fearing right now um one thing that we noted is that none of the um views that were provided in the packet include the view um from Lincoln Avenue just a few steps down where you would clearly be able to see this house there's a lot of sort of mythical Greenery between um our house and the the house that's proposed in the renderings that doesn't exist and there would be a very clear view to this house which is enormous in scale compared to the building that's already on the lot um and so you know it it will absolutely change the tenor of our experience of the neighborhood um and I I really don't want to discuss anything that's out of you know bounds for the lhdc but it does seem to me that it's it's considerably more crowded than any of the other um Lots in the neighborhood that the scale of this building to the land usage um compared to the rest of the neighborhood seems very far off and that there was no screening provided um nor fencing between any of the houses um Beyond one small set of fencing between this house and 90 fearing um but you know this house will look directly into my backyard and the backyard of of several other you know buildings in the in the neighborhood and that just doesn't seem to have been accounted for in the plan but but beyond that this is just you know most of the houses in the in the historic district are to scale with the land usage there's green spaces that buffer the homes from one another and that will disappear with this development thank you Melissa uh young men Moon can you hear me yes okay great thank you thank you for the opportunity um I am uh owner of the house directly abing the 98 fearing Street uh to the West Side uh I understand that there's some are debate about whether parking is within perview of the local history District uh regardless I'd like to Summit my observation on a daily basis as to the parking uh situation because I get to watch the number of cars parked there every day and how cars move about uh at any given time there are at least six to seven cars already and night times there are more uh last year uh before the current uh be you know before the tenants uh Chang to who are there right now one of the tenants uh friend boyfriend apparently who visited very often parked his car directly on the border line Crossing into my yard and effectively destroyed my lawn um so this is just one indication to the severity of the you know the heavy uh you know you know number of cars that's parked there so if you add another 12 units or 10 bedrooms adding to perhaps more than 2,000 units uh I think it's very clear uh where you know I don't know I just don't see where all the cars will end up um especially with that narrow uh driveway and uh just 12 unit is not enough uh in terms of the parking space and also uh speak to another uh matter uh I think uh one of the I think Melissa feris mentioned as well as Greta that uh this is not a traditional uh neighborhood but rather settled uh uh you know residential neighborhood and you know I am also an owner occupied landlord and I was mindful of you know uh extending my house and I just added 400 you know Square apartment efficiency apartment for just one person tenant uh I think that you know if you were to uh build this I think this is really uh out of proportion to the neighborhood and I think it'll severely affect the uh real estate uh values of the neighborhoods and I think there's an ethical implication of what's going on here what's being proposed here I recognize that the effort has been made to severely uh significantly reduce the initial proposal but uh I stand that this is still uh out of proportion to watch uh watching the neighborhood um and yes uh I'll just leave it there I think we've already discussed the chaotic you know nature of the traffic situation on fan street so thank you very much thank you young men uh Jennifer Tu hello can you hear me yes okay uh thank you uh my name is Jennifer tab I live at 259 Lincoln Avenue and I'm speaking as a resident um I have a couple of comments that I prepared to make but I did want to add that um you know while we appreciate that um you know just to respond to the introductory comments um of I think it was Mr Roberts that yes you know 24 bedrooms were scaled back to 10 but that's an addition to the 10 bedroom unit that's or three unit 10-bedroom um structure that's already on the property so we're talking about a minimum of 20 students but it could be 24 because you can have uh four uh per per each of the six units and when you we're showing the map of other residences in the neighborhood local historic district that you thought were in keeping with this proposal there's none that house even 10 students yet alone 20 and again I guess to you know um reiterate what uh grea said is when you showed the structure on Cosby which is two houses from where I live for the 13 years that I have uh lived in my house there's been the owner lives in that house and she rents to one graduate student or non student residents so there's never been more than three adults living between those two units and the accessory what looks like an accessory dwelling unit behind it is the owner's acupuncture studio so this is just in terms of how it looks and the massing and the scale and the number of residents totally um out of context to anything in the neighborhood in the local historic district so um I do think that the scale the size and the height of the proposed Triplex Mars the viewscape as people said from four different streets Lincoln fearing Cosby and Paige and there is no other um property in any of the these streets or in the neighborhood that have a large multi-unit building essentially in the backyard and it may be a deep lot but it's a very narrow lot and it will literally I'm sitting in my kitchen on Lincoln and I can look out onto across the street is Cosby and even though there's trees I can see where this structure will be this large structure in the backyard at 98 fearing Street and from my understanding um I understood that foliage doesn't actually count as screening or trees don't because trees can be taken down or they could die so without some of the trees that were shown in the pictures you're really looking right at this from at least four streets um in the neighborhood and I did um want to also ask that if at a point the commission does issue a certificate of appropriateness if you might you know in your letter or transmitt to the zoning board and of appeals and the planning board you know be willing to communicate um and convey the abutter strong concerns about this project because I would hate for a certificate of appropriateness to be seen as the neighborhood you know the the butters um feeling comfortable with what's being proposed but I do hope that you know you will continue to as you review this um scale back the project and again I also share all the concerns about the parking lot I just don't see how a 13 car parking lot and that expansive asphalt is contextually appropriate to the neighborhood or a local historic district thank you thank you Jennifer uh Josie you had indicated you wanted to speak do you still want to speak uh we have Roger Mage and Pat Brinkman hello can you hear me yes hi this is Roger mat I'm with my wife Pat we're on a butter on 26 Cosby in the backyard um and I noticed that the properties from Lincoln all the way down Cosby back to paage and to beston are there 23 abing properties with a shared Green Space um with with some owner occupied rentals but mostly families single family dwellings this will totally change this neighborhood there are this property this proposed building will be seen by at least one two three four five six seven eight abutters um there is no screening from our perspective there is no screening from 90 it's it's going to be 90 11 feet from 90 fearing which is looking over the a pool there's no fencing between us and this property we'll have a clear view of it as with many other properties um and this is just not appropriate for a for a neighborhood which as somebody had said is not in transition this would be a transition this would be a cascading um can I can I just say something too this is Pat hi I'm Pat and I'm also at 26 Cosby and I've actually gone over to 98 fearing and gone in and knocked on the doors to meet my neighbors back there several times and no one's been home but they have about 12 people often sitting out in the back uh and um with neighbors and funs I think that's great for them to do but in this parking lot if this if the whole back their whole backyard is full of cars where are they going to gather as friends and neighbors um and I'm afraid that there's not much green space for them to do that and I know I think what you've done is really nice I think I like the architecture and I like the idea of having you know diversity in the neighborhood but I think we've got a lot of the diversity over on McLure and and we have people coming through doing all kinds of things in the middle of the night in our neighborhood right now um so I uh that's all I have to say I'm I'm pretty emotional about this so I'll end here thank you all thanks for all the work you're doing both the LDC and and the people who have done this design work um it's a nice design but it's not appropriate for this neighborhood thank you thank you Roger thank you Pat do we have anybody else who would like like to speak well I think we have probably giving you a sense of the concerns we oh we do have two more people who' like to speak uh Dorothy Pam Dorothy you just uh okay there you are hold on a minute you should be able to talk now Dorothy okay great okay yes I did want to add something it's really a question um is is it true that you're saying that the amount of asphalt is not regulated um I was listening to this the first half of it I'm now home but I was in the car and I was looking at the picture as I was driving which is complicated but what I was seeing was what I was you know something suitable to a commercial strip that I was driving through um buildings and they and I say nicel looking buildings um surrounded by asphalt uh and I I guess I had not thought that grass and trees were not part of a historic neighborhood um I mean our houses would not look like anything if it weren't for the fact that they were surrounded by Lawns and grass and trees um so is is Nate is that correct that you're saying that the amount of asphalt is not somehow connected to the idea of um a local historic neighborhood right so an excl is Terra walks driveways sidewalks and similar structures structures provided that they are substantially at grade and so uh you know that's one Landscaping is also excluded so yeah you know that the visibility of something should not be um ex you know excused because there's existing trees because those could be removed however the commission has as a condition made um made vegetation permanent screening so that becomes like a structure right so we could require the commission could have as a condition certain screening that includes vegetation and then that has to be maintained but the fact that neighboring properties have trees along their their you know the boundaries doesn't mean that this is now somehow excluded or not visible we'd have to you know uh you know have a you know be able to look at it and say well if right if the neighbors cut down those trees because they got old what what what's the visual impact then um so well I I do I do think that the um the bylaw should be Revisited because I think that um I would hate to think what our neighborhood would look like without the grass and trees it would be a very Barren kind of concept um I do want to add my voice to other people who said that use the word transitional um transitional means it can keep on moving and this structure this development if put in at that place would in fact move the trans I from this is no longer a residential area for U individuals and families but it's somehow part of the University um a nicer looking uh residential impact from the one at the top of Lincoln that the university has added but um you know very soon taking over the whole neighborhood and I don't think that's well we don't think that's a good idea um so um I I also think there's so many people whose property abuts this who are residents who've been here for many years and including some new residents um it's not that people don't want to buy the houses and move into the neighborhood and therefore it's run down and needs to be rebuilt in some kind of um you know glorified rooming house way um there are all kinds of people who have lived here and choose to live here because of what it is so I do think it's fair important to try to maintain some of those items and I I do think that what Pat brought up a few minutes ago was really interesting where do the people socialize if you have a whole bunch of people living together is is this like an apartment building in New York City or is it some kind of communal situation where people can actually talk and gather um that seems to have been cut out of it so um I I don't see it as appropriate for the neighborhood though it would be very nice someplace else with more but but not with all that asphalt thank you uh Priscilla white thank you Dorothy Priscilla white can you hear me yes hi um I uh live at 318 Lincoln around the corner from fearing and I moved here 21 years ago and when I moved here there were 10 families uh 10 children um living on the street and it was uh a mix of some houses with students and many houses with families one by one the families uh put their houses for sale they moved for various reasons and they were bought all by developers uh landlords and until aside from one woman on the corner we're the last hold out on Lincoln and so you might have said 20 years ago that it was a family neighborhood with some students and then became transitional and we had hoped to age in place here I'm 78 years old and now I'm had to decide to leave and give up my plan because the kind of building that's being proposed on fearing Street won't affect me because I have to leave because of all the students but it's going to affect families and residents um owner occupied people on fearing and uh every single increase um and none of you know this the magnitude of the incre increase in this this house um this proposal is stunning to me it there's nothing really no other backyard that I know of in this neighborhood has had that that kind of a proposal and um and I'm just speaking up um out of my loss of a place that I hope to age into and and stay here till the end of my life I've had to give up because um because of houses being uh and lots and um homes being uh overrun by uh I like what somebody said this is a commercial property and in this District um was not intended to be a commercial District thank you thank you P does anyone else have something to say or do we have a proposal uh young Min Moon I just like to chime in on or build upon the previous ladi's comments uh and I said this before at the last hearing too and also to uh relay my thoughts about the ethical implication there's an economic and ethical and emotional implications to this project uh the lady just spoke about her loss of her neighborhood where she wanted to retire and and uh and her uh and her spent her last years uh that's very saddening to hear and I think projects like this will eventually push people like us you know on fearing Street and and and around this house to eventually give up and you know un uh unwittingly or reluctantly you know contribute to transforming this neighborhood into commercial district and largely entirely almost of student housing and that's really sad and also economically it'll impact uh the value of the houses thank you young men Nate yeah I was going to encourage the public to you know um bring these comments to the zoning board of appeals if this gets there because a lot of these are appropriate to the zoning board I think what I hear is that you know whether or not there are two family or three family homes in the neighborhood just like the one existing they look like a single family home and so what's being proposed is a massive structure in the back that now has the look and feel and appearance of something that isn't single family and so you know I think when we had this discussion previously we had asked uh or it was suggested you know to right minimize the scale and reduce the number of of structures and they've done that but you know I'm hearing that it's it's not not sufficient enough and so you know there are secondary structures on properties within the district on Lincoln and other streets uh it's just at the scale in proportion between say the primary structure that faces the street and the secondary structure is different and so uh you know whether or not most of those comments that I've heard you know are really directed to the zba but I think that the commercial appearance is you know something that is is valid and so you know if there aren't any other comments um from the Commissioners I mean we could let the applicants respond uh or we could have suggestions or ideas that they could come back with and so uh you know I don't know if there's any other uh comments from the commission but what I've heard is that you know the scale is too big uh and you know say even the placement on the property in terms of screening so you know is there a way to for instance reduce the size of the second the proposed structure bring it closer to the house or something or add more screening uh I mean there's a you know the commission can keep the hearing open and then look at other options for what what could you know this could adapt through the hearing process if if you know if need be thank you Nate so what I'm hearing and I think Nate has just put it quite well is that this structure as proposed is not acceptable to this commission um we can consider something smaller but I believe having having listened to everybody it would have to be significantly smaller it could perhaps be uh a one bedroom inside that garage it could perhaps be a one-bedroom addition on the back of the house uh that doesn't jut out into the backyard in the same kind of way but I don't hear US Open to the idea of anything close to the scale of this particular proposal um you mentioned in opening that this house is one of the tallest houses on the street and you've proposed a second house with an even larger footprint that is within a foot of the height of this house it is just out of scale with anything else around it um so even though you've proposed a lovely building which would look very nice on an empty lot somewhere it doesn't belong in the backyard of someone's home um so uh does anyone have any uh proposals further uh for this for the architect or lawyer Bruce you're muted Bruce you're muted Bruce I was going to move something very similar to what you just said Nancy as a means of uh moving forward um uh I don't know whether the applicants would be in a position to spontaneously respond to the kind of uh challenge that you've put before them um personally I'm not sure that I would it needs to be down to a a single bedroom or so but certainly I'm still of a mind that this is out of scale and uh so it would seem to me that the uh easiest way to move forward would be to deny the applicants uh to to move that a certificate of appropriateness not be granted uh on the finding that um that the uh the the the of the inappropriateness in regard to scale when seen in the context of the historic district and whereas the proposed building itself is reflective of surrounding Victorian and early 20th century architecture at scale is not it proposes a a significantly larger building footprint and uh and the appearance um and and the size of the proposed parking is dramatically out of scale with the other neighborhood properties um I'm not convinced that that Nate's right or perhaps that you should be right my sense is so that was the end of my motion and uh perhaps I I should wait to um speak but my sense is that and maybe I should ask you Nate is there any reason why we why why a motion to deny a certificate should be voted on or considered right now or would it be prudent or for any reason that I might not understand which there could be many of that we should vote instead to continue the heating with a with a clear impression given to the applicant that uh that they haven't convinced us of the appropriateness so I guess the question to you is do you would you Council that we proceed with that motion or that we should move to continue well uh you know the applicant hasn't really responded to any questions or comments so I'd have give them an opportunity I think Tom's raised his hand but you know to see where that will lead first right so if we've heard in the commission said that there's certain elements that could be changed if they're willing to try to make those changes then um you know it'd be it could move forward that way as a continued hearing to see what what you know what's being what could be brought forward okay when when I when I started my motion there was no hands up from the applicants but now there is can I get a second for the motion before we go to a discussion thank you g okay Tom sure thanks a lot let me put my hand down uh yeah so I was just gonna suggest that maybe give us an opportunity this is my first time involved with this project in front of lhdc let's go back it maybe that we can't do anything uh or it may be that we can but instead of you know frankly once you deny then we've got certain decisions to make of whether or not we want to take another step and instead of even being forced to take that next step let us go back to the drawing board based upon everything that we've heard and let's see if we can come up with something and if we can great and if we can't then maybe it's just a withdrawal or we give our best shot and you still say no but I think at least because I don't know that we're going to be we're not convincing anybody today on this design I know that much and then let us at least go back and and see if there is another way to do it and it's not going to happen um you know right now so that would be our request I think is for a continuation and have us bring something back please thank you Tom Bruce uh having heard that and with uh Greer's uh approval I'll I'll withdraw the motion thank you uh Charles and then I would Sor well maybe I'll wait maybe I'll wait to if we uh so I'll withdraw the motion and I could proceed to uh move to a continuation but let's Charles speak first Bruce yeah thanks Bruce um yeah I would I guess um um it would be helpful to know what sort of thresholds would be acceptable is it really simply converting that existing garage into like a one-bedroom Studio unit is there some number of of of of units or bedroom count and and number of cars in the back that after seeing this design the board has an intuitive sense would be appropriate um so we have we we have something to go for I mean I mean you know if it's if it's just if it's if it's if it's just thinking about that garage there's not there not a lot we can do about that other than you know figure out a way to design the owners could figure out a way you know with me or us or to design some kind of little unit in there would it would it would they consider would the board consider you know one more unit as an addition to that garage or something and maybe maybe eight parking spaces configured in a way where there's more Landscaping Islands between the parking spaces or where it's not it's maybe Skip it's distributed around the site a couple different places oppos as opposed to one Central Parking area I mean I'm just going to jump in you know one of the examples you showed across on the north side of fearing you know had I think it was the good L Farmhouse Farm property you know say had you know a connector building then a barn but it was all once lo you know read as multiple structures but connected and so again something I had said was you know could the building be made smaller and brought forward and almost look like it's an addition to the existing house and have it read differently than you know a a pretty big separate structure plunked in the middle of the yard and so you know some of it is both the massing and scale and then also how it's related to the site the existing site building and the neighboring properties and so I mean it could be that it's a you know I I don't know speaking personally it could be more than one bedroom or it could be two units still it could be a few bedrooms it just it's like what is the massing and scale and how does it read when it's you know um in relation to that the existing house and the neighboring properties yeah it's it's an interesting question like how do you how do you philosophically approach something like this and you know in some ways a simpler building makes more sense if it's just a connector to a piece to kind of a simple Barn shape as a back building as opposed to a building that one could say should be facing on Street um what gets tricky is is is um if you can add on to the existing house and and keep the garage if you can sort of picture the site plan it's kind of hard to figure out where cars are going to go so you know but we what we worked on that's why the the parking is between the two structures I could see maybe some kind of a structure added on to the garage that's that that's more of a back building and doesn't feel like a primary residence that has like maybe you know two three bedrooms or something like that attached to the the garage which is a a Studio unit or one bedroom r so I just um thank you Charles I just want you to remember though that our job is not to find it financially feasible for you I know you bought the house two years ago paid 800 something for it it's has three Apartments so the finances are on you and on the real estate agent that sold it um so but on us is keeping the the scale the structure the um in relationship to the other houses in the neighborhood so um and to protect the historical district that's all we care about um I'm sorry if you don't think it's financially advisable but um I can't speak to that Bruce are you trying to speak also or is that an old hand no it's a new hand uh I was U actually going to respond to the suggestion I think that Nate made about building or adding to the house and Chuck I think has answered that rather compellingly I I was concerned of once you start getting bigger units you have sprinkler systems and so forth and I was wondering whether there would be complications associated with the existing house that if we were to add to it but I think uh I'm uh I could understand the the the the answer that Chu gave that the the proximity of the house and the bar would it would push the cars into the backyard in a way that would probably be less desirable so I think um I can understand that adding to the house in this situation is probably not a a sound concept and that either expanding the garage in a way that doesn't need the garage to be pulled down or and that would be nice I think but my sense is I suppose in answer to your question Shu and I'm obviously speaking for myself and and others will say what they think but my sense is that uh because my major concern has been the parking area and so forth uh and the scale that that that generates it seems to me that anything more than eight spaces is going to be problematic and there's already probably should be six now because of the minimal requirement that says two per unit and you've got three units already there so that's six and maybe if if there was another unit added it could could be I don't know whatever two or three bedroom uh keeping the garage as you intended U that seems like a good idea uh that would yield a parking area of eight eight spaces and hopefully that could be organized in a way that wouldn't appears so out of um extraordinary in the neighborhood and uh and and this is you know I didn't come prepared to make a suggestion on the uh to respond although I see from your point of view it's a perfectly reasonable question that if we don't like this what what what what do you need to do to to to to get our support so I feel obligated to do my best to answer that it seems to me that uh that the site is already pretty handsomely developed and uh and and if if if you were to do a good job of uh showing me how the parking areas and so forth could be maintained in scale with another unit uh and maintaining the garage and so forth somewhat in the way that you've done because I understand your point about separating any additional building as opposed to adding it on that's then I can imagine that possibly something could be I could be persuaded and I guess I'm saying that because I know you and your firm's work and I know Jeff and his firm's work and so I think that you certainly have the design skills to do this but trying to do this in a way that uh can be managed by an agreeable landlord and that's where the zoning board will come in because none of what I say is going to uh make uh any of the abouts feel a whole lot better about this that's going to be the work of the zoning board and that's not our job but so far as appropriateness is concerned so far as and and I repeat that I think the scale is the issue and it feels to me that you guys might be able to make a one unit addition um fly but that's working off the seat of my pants but I am trying to uh respond in a way that might be helpful to you I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here Ken I have to go because I'm part of another meeting but I agree very much with what has been said I I think one more uh unit perhaps can be fit in there but um not much more but what I'm hearing I think is that uh the commission might be open to a continuation of this uh is that correct I was about to and will move for continuation but I can't do that without a date certain so we'd have to work with Nate to get a date certain or or Charles I don't know what what you're thinking so we you know there was a waiver of time so we have a we have a bit of time to keep reviewing this uh and then you know we can see what happens after that so you know is like three weeks enough like I looking at May 20th is it does it need to be longer um well I guess I guess a little one question would be you know I could probably come up with an idea for taking the existing garage and maybe even just extending it and turning the garage and some addition onto the garage garage that's it's all low No taller than the existing garage into into a some kind of a of a of a decent unit and I and if I could if I could bring something like that before the board in sketch form where you know Jeff hasn't had to go and develop his you know we know if he can make a storm drainage work with this building he can make it work with us with a smaller building so that's not really so much of a question so I could come forward I could come before the board with something in a sketch format that you could look at and sort of pass judgment on then I can see that happening working I got I have to speak with my clients and see how they're feeling yes so we'd have to continue it to a day certain though so you know we can always continue it and then continue it again if you're not ready and so you know that's where we can't just you know say oh let's just continue it so whenever we actually would have to have a time and day uh and would we would we say you we could do two weeks if we wanted to do that I mean we did that with other applicants where we've continued it to look at massing models and things to say kind of a a litmus test of like okay this looks a looks like it's going in the right direction or do we you know continue it to even longer four or five weeks to have a little more developed plan yeah I have enough in the pipeline right now that I think more time would be better if I could have it um does would it make sense to Simply deny this certificate and let him start over again again they would give him more time I'm I'm inclined to deny and um it just seems so out of scale to me and I think I don't want to get in a situation where where it's a um I don't think just because they propose something then we're in a a situation of compromising for it um so they could do a fresh proposal that they thought really fit into the neighborhood but this to me doesn't at all so so are you moving are you moving to deny that would be my thought but do I have a second I'll second is there more discussion uh oh we've got three people uh attendees who would like to speak Dorothy um I I just think that some of the things that have been said here are getting off Target there's two different languages that are being spoken the uh local historic district committee is talking about houses and neighborhoods and history um and I I don't think it's their job to advise on how to make them maximum profit um out of something um I personally people I think are being much too nice about cars I think it's been stated there's already too many cars back there already there's already a lot of people living on a residential lot it's already dense the idea that well maybe it could be a little more dense why I I I just I'm not catching what the message is here it's it's very very confused that that is not the job to how can you get as many people possibly as many cars as possible on to a residential lot in a residential neighborhood does does not seem to be what's supposed to be happening here so um I I just agree with denying thank you thank you agree I agree with Dorothy uh Ken Rosenthal go thank you very much I agree with Dary Pam it is not the job of this commission to help the owners design something and to deal and and and what has been asked of the commission now is for the commission members to imagine what Mr Roberts is suggesting might happen there each commissioner will have a a a mental sense of what it might be that's not the way to propose this the best way is to deny this now and let the applicant come back with a new application to show you what the applicant wants to do knowing everything that the applicant has heard from this meeting and from from the neighbors who have criticized The Proposal thank you thank you Ken uh Melissa hi um we want to Echo what everyone else has said um I personally would not feel comfortable just guessing what the structure might look like from a sketch that doesn't have any of the site plan involved in it because the garage is directly on our property line so if you expand that garage you're expanding directly next to our house if there's no screening provided and there's no site plan involved in whatever sketch you might be bringing beautiful though it may be I also really like your guitar um I do want to you know say that it would it would make me super uncomfortable if that was greenlit on the basis of something that was rushed through in order to have you know to make sure that your proposal is is you know fast-tracked which it seems like it it's not working for the committee it doesn't work for the neighborhood it shouldn't be rushed through Bruce um I think there's a misunderstanding uh the the uh Chuck's suggestion that he may develop a sketch would be to give an indication this is not going to be the basis for a decision it's going to be the basis for proceeding and uh and and and as far as you know responding to somehow give some guidance to uh applicants and so forth we have done this before we we definitely did this with Barry Roberts's uh application for development on fearing and sunset so it's it's not not un not unprecedented but that being said it doesn't mean that we necessarily need to continue uh we can consider a denial I suppose uh I would just want to make sure Nate that uh sometimes denying things uh um turns out to be uh um not the best course of action um I don't want to go into the details because I'm not good enough and I can't remember them all but I do remember in the past and I've been on this commission for seven years now um that we haven't always uh uh got the baby washed best by denying sometimes by continuing uh we do get uh an appropriate result I'm not advocating continuing I'm just saying that it's something we need to consider that's it for me thank you uh Barbara Pearson uh hello I came in on here we can barely hear you Barbara can you speak more loudly uh is that better somewhat somewhat well just just briefly I certainly think that the design was completely out of scale for the neighborhood but I do think that the commission at some point has to wrestle with the idea that we do need more housing in town and how do we get it and is there a possibility of getting it the way people have recommended that it happens in the backyard um is well so that discussion I think is part of the historic commission unless they don't want to just say Well it has to happen somewhere else that's all so I I don't know um that's all I'm saying that we do have to we do have to think of the idea that there's not enough housing in the town thank you that's not actually part of our job uh Jennifer tub uh yes thank you um well I guess I just to respond uh to what Barbara Pearson just said and I know it's not within your purview but you know we're I think we've always been we have accessible dwelling units in the district and we've always been open to that but those have a limit of a th000 square feet and the owner is required to live in the primary or the accessory dwelling but I I just wanted to say I know Bruce I think Bruce you might have be the only commissioner that was um on the commission maybe going back five years ago when Amherst media brought it first um application for a certificate of appropriateness to the local historic district commission and we did deny the first application then they came back at later with another proposal and then that we continued those conversations for you know more than one meeting so there's precedent for both keeping the hearing open and continuing it to a date certain as well as you know feeling like the proposal is so far off from where we ultimately want to be that we uh did deny the first um application so I just want to share that bit of History thank you thank you Jennifer Nate right so you know um Jenifer mentioned emis media at the time we had a legal opinion that you know local historic district can't categorically say no to any development on a property it's response to anything you know an application so you know we can't say well this property is already too built out we're not going to allow anything on it and it could be that they come back and they have a modest addition to the garage and it works and so a continuation could allow that to be um discussed with the applicants and they could return I mean they could return we could continue it for a few weeks a number of weeks they could con come back and say you know what we don't think it'll work and then we have the option of either denying it then or allowing them to withdraw the application and so you know we've done this in the the past I think that would be that would be my recommendation not to deny it today allow a continuance to a date certain and you know and maybe at that juncture then it you know denial is appropriate uh and you know or they have something that the commission can respond to so I don't you know it's just it's allowing the the process to unfold it seems like they're willing to try to make it work thank you Steve oh you muted Steve yeah okay sorry um I'm amenable to either way which does the applicant prefer a continuance or do they want you know to us deny it and then start again from scratch that's what I'm unclear about yeah I I would have to M my clients aren't here to uh for me to me to talk to about this so I I don't feel comfortable making this decision for them and and um I feel but I I it's um are are you able to you able to see um Nancy if if uh Lorenzo or Andy or or Pete McGee are here in attendance Lorenzo is um Tom re's had his hand up for a moment I Tom might be able to answer this sorry Tom yeah are you wait how yeah um I'm here yeah I I have to get in the car because I have a hearing in Webster um yeah I mean I think continuing and I don't want to take any words out of Lorenzo's mouth But continuing then we can have a conversation uh after everybody's been able to digest all of the comments that have happened instead of making a snap decision tonight to say okay deny it and that's it resubmit something let's I think it's just prudent for everyone to keep this one open allow the owners and Developers to go back to the drawing board to see exactly what they could do and then like Nate said then next time either uh allow a withdrawal if you're not satisfied with the direction it's going in deny it at that point but it just seems prudent for everyone to continue this one to a a date into the future to allow everybody to get their heads around it a little bit more thanks Tom uh Lorenzo sorry yeah yeah sorry you can uh unmute yourself yeah I I just want to support what Tom just said I mean that's why we have Tom and Charles to advise this is uh not a process we're familiar with so that's why they're here so if that's Tom's recommendation um as one of the owners I'll say that that's the way we should go thanks than Enzo so at this point uh we we have a motion to deny that has been seconded I think we need to take a vote before we do anything further um so I'm sorry Steve did you want to say something well can I withdraw my second you can okay I would I would like to withdraw my second can I move uh that we have a continuance then you can I move that we have a continuance do we have a second oh hold on we need a date certain I mean we could stick with Mondays if we think you know the 27th of May is Memorial Day we could 20th seems like it's too soon we could do Monday June 3 we could do any you know any I mean any day of the week honestly like if we but money seem like it works for um Commissioners right we don't want to risk attendance so so Monday May 20th we can throw that out there that's soon enough I mean if it's too soon um but otherwise you know it puts us with the holiday it puts us another two weeks out Chuck said he was busy so June 3D sounds good I would rather them have more time to give a more thorough proposal thanks for looking out for my calendar Bruce that's great so June 3 would June 3 work for the other Commissioners does for me yes okay uh uh Charles does that give you sufficient time yeah that gives me time thank you we do june 3D at 3 and that's pardon H June 3 at three so oh three sorry uh so do I have uh a second for continuing this to June 3 at 3 o'clock I'll oh thank you uh then let's take a vote grea okay um Nicole yes uh Bruce yes Steve yes uh and I'll vote reluctantly yes um so that will uh put us on June 3 at 3 o'clock um and we'll see we'll see you then I would encourage you to bring us something small because I think from what you've heard uh this commission is not open to something that's very large and it probably should stay within the footprint of the G current garage Bria and I would I also Charles would um suggest that you look at the little the garage tucked back way behind on mlen that has been a viable apartment a viable house for somebody for a long long time okay thank you and very sweet too they did a really sweet job and I don't even think they have a car take a look thanks uh Nate do we have anything else that we need to discuss today yeah no I'll say um I see Jennifer keeps raising her hand then disappearing on me but um Jennifer she's back hi I'm sorry just know quickly I think R I just want to clarify if you want to look at that accessory dwelling unit on melin it I think it actually faces on page street is that the one you're talking about no I don't think so but um okay there is I'll find out the number okay and there is one on on Page Street that's the accessory dwelling unit to the house on the corner of cosian page which is also very contextually appropriate thank you I know that one too so all right thanks that's that's right within my walking radius on lunchtime so I'll just take a scroll through there I I will just add that those are like homes that are lived in by the person renting the accessory dwelling unit so if you'd like to change one of those apartments to the owner of the house we might be more interested in supporting this yes that's a good point Nancy um okay uh Nate I think are we ready to uh adjourn this meeting no no no I have a quick question yeah Steve yeah Nate um uh I'm the CP the CPA Grant or uh East amher lhd I want to make sure that I don't need don't need to send it up for RPS yeah I I was going to check with a procurement officer on that first I'm not exactly sure okay yeah okay that's all hey are you uh is the commission done with me at this point yeah I think yeah I think we're we're done for the evening so we'll see uh Charles you and Tom or and everyone else back at um 3:00 on June 3 and for the commission there could be another application or two and we would schedule that new hearing for 4 or later 4:30 p.m. um there's you know potential to have another um you know we could combine this just so that we have you know we could try to get another meeting in but this gives us enough time to advertise something if something comes in did you want to say something uh yes uh that being the first Monday of the month I have a standing habitat meeting at 6: PM so these 3 p.m. meetings are very good is there any reason why we wouldn't do it at 300 p.m. did we but that's what we said 3 P.M oh he said and they said 4 4:30 I was saying that if we had another application come in you know if another project application came in oh I see we would the meeting still be going at four o'clock yeah okay got you thank you thanks uh do I have a motion to adjourn hi everybody thank you thank you for coming Charles yeah thank you Z moved thank you second uh approve G second uh yes please yes Bruce yes Steve yes and I say yes too thank you Nate for all your help with all of this yeah thanks everyone thank you bye byebye by