but that was my [Laughter] book oh my goodness let's [Music] see okay Mr Marshall uh we are recording you are the co-host to this meeting ammer media is with us tonight uh the attendees are coming on in you have a full house for board and it is 6:33 according to my clock good to go okay thank you Pam you're welcome welcome to the emmer planning board meeting of April 3rd 2024 my name is Doug Marshall and as the chair of the emmer planning board I'm calling this meeting to order at 6:33 p.m. this meeting is being recorded and is available live stream via amest media minutes are being taken pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this planning board meeting including public hearings will will be conducted via remote means using the zoom platform the zoom meeting link is accessible on the meeting agenda posted on the town website's calendar listing for this meeting or go to the planning board web page and click on the most recent agenda where the zoom link is listed at the top of the page no in-person attendance of the public is permitted however every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately access the meeting in real time via techn ological means in the event we are unable to do so for reasons of economic hardship or despite best efforts we will post an audio or video recording transcript or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting on the town of emerest website board members I will take a roll call when I call your name unmute yourself answer affirmatively and then return to mute Bruce C I'm here Brad Hartwell I am here Jesse major I'm here I Doug Marshall I'm present Janet Macwan here Johanna Newman here and Karen winter here thank you all board members if technical issues arise we may need to pause to fix the problem and then continue the meeting if the discussion needs to pause it will be noted in the minutes please use the rais hand function to ask a question or make a comment I will see your request and call on you to speak after speaking remute remember to remute yourself for the general public the general public comment item is reserved for public comment regarding items not on tonight's agenda Please be aware the board will not respond to comments during General Public public comment period public comment may also be heard at other times during the meeting when deemed appropriate by the planning board chair please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the rais hand button when public comment is solicited if you have joined the me Zoom meeting using a telephone please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star n on your phone when called on please identify Yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finish speaking residents can express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the planning board chair if a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds their allotted time their participation may be disconnected from the meeting okay uh all right the first item uh it's now 6:37 and uh I have a question for Pam actually or Chris um customarily we would do minutes at this time um I see Pam that your opening comments say there that the January 31 minutes were in are ready for approval however I don't believe I received them in my packet uh were they in the general packet no because those actually were approved at the last meeting or the meeting before so that was just a hold over okay I know Chris Chris has something to say yeah I know she distributed another set of minutes Chris is that what you wanted to say yes I sent out the October 4th 2023 minutes it was either yesterday or the day before um I apologize for them being so late um but they seem to be um very much of interest to people who are interested in the shb road project so that'll be coming back to the zoning board soon so it would be good if you could review the October 4th minutes either tonight or at your next meeting which is April 17th thank you okay uh so board members have you all had a chance to look over those minutes I know I I did take did look at them I've seen see just raise your physical hand if you looked at one two three maybe four of us five so maybe everybody but Fred looked at them uh board members I I did look at them I have my hand up oh you have your digital hand up okay y um that's oh that's what I thought that's what you meant okay um so do people feel comfortable reviewing and possibly approving them this evening or do people want to wait I guess um I'm seeing Jesse's thumbs up on going ahead Fred Johanna Karen so that leaves Janet and Bruce to uh Doug I I was not at the meeting so although I read them I will uh abstain so I'm I'm good with reviewing them but just that's why I didn't put my hand up okay thank you uh Janet um so is so could we wait till next week for Bruce to see them or was Bruce me next meeting well it sounds like i' I've seen them I've read them but I'm I'm I'm in no position to determine whether they're accurate or not because I wasn't at the meeting oh okay I I was a little yeah I read the January minutes and I thought I've seen these before and I was but now I realize it wasn't just me you know we can vote on them I don't really remember everything from that meeting but you know that okay all right [Music] um all right so does anybody have any comments on the minutes as drafted all right this is probably the benefit of doing the minutes long after the meeting very few comments joh um it's also helpful that we have a recording so you know I thought the details looked good and I moved to approve them minutes from October 4th so that's a motion to approve all right uh Jesse second that okay all right any any more bet any more comments from the board or shall we go right into our vote okay right we'll do a roll call uh Bruce I'm G to call on you though I know what you're gonna say I'll obain yes okay Fred I vote Yes approve thank you Jesse approve all right Janet um yes approve oh yes approve sorry Johanna I'm an I thank you Karen I approve that's an i as well and I'm I'm an i as well so we have six members in favor one exstension and no NOS great all right the time now is 6:42 and we'll go into the second item on the agenda uh we have a great uh wait let's see we have looks like we have 18 participants this evening um and I will read their names and then we can during the time I read the names uh members of the public you can start raising your hands if you want to make a public comment about an item that's not on a later item on our agenda I see Barry Roberts Brad Hutchinson Hutcheson Bruce Erick Elizabeth verling Eric Bach Rock Gail flood Hy startup Jamie Gruber Jenny KCK Jonathan salvan Kathleen Bridgewater Kenneth Roberts Mara Kean Michael Linsky Michelle mcard Renee Moss Robert bazooka and Sharon pavanelli and Mary braw as one one participant okay any members of the public do you want to make a comment on this time about something that's not listed later as a topic for this meeting okay I don't see any hands from the public and with that I guess we'll go ahead and move on to the next topic on the agenda all right time now is 6:43 and we will go to the comprehensive permit for Belchertown Road and East Street school project eligibility letter excuse me presentation discussion and opportunity to offer comments regarding the project eligibility application submitted to the Massachusetts executive office of Housing and livable communities for preliminary review of their proposed development including a o imately 78 mixed income apartments at 31 Southeast Street and 70 Belchertown Road Chris uh your hands up and I hope you're gonna make an introduction to this topic for us yes I have an introductory statement I hope it doesn't overlap too much with um Jamie Gruber but I'll um I think it'll help you to put this in context um good evening my name is Chris bre planning director uh wayfinders is proposing to develop approximately 78 mixed income apartments at 31 Southeast Street which is the site of the old East Street school and 70 Belchertown Road these locations are proposed to be per permitted and funded as one project the project is Seeking a comprehensive permit or 40b for the development of affordable apartments at these locations this is a similar process to the one we used for home the home ownership project on ball Lane and the support supportive Apartment project at 132 Northampton road wayfinders is a local nonprofit corporation that has been in existence for 50 years I think they used to have a different name I think they used to be called hap housing if I'm not mistaken and hap housing helped the town to develop Olympia Oaks affordable housing project in North ammer the proposed development will provide affordable apartments for extremely low low and moderate income individuals the project has been in the works for a long time the town has been working with the Housing Trust for years on the possible development of affordable housing at the East Street school and the town also recently purchased property on beler toown road with the intent of using it to develop affordable housing the town purchased the belur toown road property with about $73,000 in CPAC or C CPAC or Community Development um excuse me Community preservation act funds in addition the town has agreed to contribute an additional hundreds of thousands of dollars toward the development of the site this is a good location for an affordable housing project since since it is located on the edges of the East ammer Village Center there will be a new school built nearby there are services including shops restaurants and shops and restaurants and both sites have bus routes that go right by them um there are Community Gardens nearby as well as conservation lands that to provide uh a place for people to grow food and also for recreation the project will be split into two sites with the Southeast Street site reusing the East Street School building and adding units there for a total of about 31 apartments on the beler toown road site there will be one new building with a total of about 48 Apartments the comprehensive permit process consists of two main phases one is the state level project eligibility determination and the second is the local review process by the zoning board of appeals so the state subsidizing agency in this case is e LC executive office of Housing and livable communities we used to know them by another name wayfinders submitted an application for a project eligibility letter which we call a peal to eoh LC and that agency will provide a written determination of project eligibility eohc then forwarded the plal application to the town for comment and the letter was received by the town on March 21st and the town has 30 days to submit comments to the state the documents or excuse me the comments are due to the state by April 22nd so the plan planning board is being asked to review the project in general in a general way based on tonight's presentation and based on the materials that you've reviewed either online or in your packets planning board members should take into account the things that the planning board normally looks at when reviewing a project but keep in mind that the project is only in the conceptual design phase things you might consider are whether the site in this location is generally appropriate for residential development and whether the conceptual design is generally appropriate for the site the planning board may choose to make a recommendation to the state that this is an appropriate project to be built on in this location in town however the planning board is not required or obligated to make a recommendation if the board chooses not to make a recommendation on this project individual board members may still submit comments as residents of ammer and the place where individual comments can be submitted ited can be found by clicking on the link that is on the planning board agenda for tonight's meeting the project if it goes ahead will eventually come back to the planning board once it has been fully designed and submitted to the zoning board of appeals for a comprehensive permit so the planning board will have another opportunity to comment on the project at that time now I'd like to introduce Jamie grer Gruber of wayfinders to present the project thank you thanks Chris and welcome Jamie yeah uh uh thank you thank you Chris for that uh that that introduction and uh I'm going to share my screen here and start the presentation okay can you all see my screen I believe we can great thank you uh good evening and I'd like to thank you all for having me here tonight to discuss our proposed development in ammer I'm Jamie Gruber a project manager of wayfinders and I will start with a brief overview of our organization and then move on to the development plans uh wayfinders builds and advocates for a thriving and Equitable region by improving the stability and economic mobility of families and individuals together with the de developing and managing a wide range of housing to support strong communities is our mission statement and our organization provides services in the housing Arena from homelessness through home ownership the real estate development team that I am a part of focuses on the creation and the preservation of affordable housing our main offices are located in Springfield and we provide services throughout western Mass wayfinders currently owns and manages approximately 800 rental units in Western Mass cross multiple sites primarily up and down the i91 corridor here are a few of our developments that include Butternut Farms Olympia Oaks in ammer in Northampton we have live5 in the lumber yard on Pleasant Street along with Sergeant house on Bridge Street Library Commons is one of our hoolio developments as well uh in November 2021 wayfinders answered the town of Amis request for proposals to develop two town-owned properties the former East Street school at 31 Southeast Street and the town-owned land at 70 beler Town Road as part of the RFP process the town reviewed wayfinders proposal and selected wayfinders as the preferred developer we have completed much of our due diligence and have progressed the design and preparation of Permitting the development via the comprehensive permit process through the town's uh zoning board of appeals the proposed development includes two sites to the east of downtown ammer 31 Southeast Street will create 31 units and includes an Adaptive reuse of of the school and 70 beler toown road create 47 units in order to maximize the housing provided we look to the most most efficiently used a buildable area at each site our plans include buildings that will provide barrier-free housing and elevator access to all floors and units the buildings will be designed with sustainability as a core goal and will incorporate Energy Efficiency measures consistent with passive house and Enterprise green communities the buildings will be all electric and will seek to install solar arrays for on-site renewable energy once the buildings are complete wayfinders property management team will be on site allowing for a meaningful presence for future residents um here's a table that shows the income distribution of unit types and some of these numbers may change but this is generally where they will fall uh approximately 68 of the 78 units will be income restricted while the remaining 10 will be reserved as market rate units these income restricted units will be designated for residents based upon their household income the household income is in terms of a percentage of aam median income or Ami and the Department of Housing and Urban Development or HUD publishes values based upon a geographic locations each year currently in the ammer area the 100% Ami for a family of four is uh just under a 100,000 So based on this sh chart 23 of the units will be for families and individuals with earnings of 30% of the Ami or less and seven of the units will be for families or individuals uh with earnings 50% % or less of the Ami uh 19 of the units will be for families or individuals with earnings 60% of of the Ami or less and 19 of the units will be for families or individuals earning up to 80% of Ami and then 10 of the units will be Market ratings um here are a few photos showing the existing South East Street School site you see the school and and um and in the area in the front um across the street is the the common in the in the in the foreground there and uh the proposed development at Southeast Street School create 31 units ranging from Studios to three bedrooms uh the development involves the Adaptive reuse of the school uh and it's in that will'll have six mixed income housing units and it includes an addition of 25 uh mixed income units and it'll be connected to the existing school and share um an elevator creating a total of 31 rental units um the work to the school includes replacement of all the windows repair and repointing of the exterior masonry reconfiguration of the interior of the school building to create residential apartment units uh the new construction will seamlessly connect to the school featuring a central patio and main entrance equipped with an elevator for accessibility across all levels in both buildings here's a rendered site plan for the Southeast Street um location the proposed construction is shown along the um um uh along the road uh connected to the existing um school and the field in the rear or Western portion of the property will be retained by the town and uh will be undeveloped um and here is a closer look at the Southeast Street site plan uh the footprint of the existing school is shown in red and the new construction portion is shown in tan uh along and aligned with the road uh the on-site parking area will be located in generally the same location as the existing schools parking and uh there'll be a pedestrian path along the southern side of the property um that will allow for access to the town own field um that would be in the upper uh leftand portion of the screen um the new construction will have a community room for residents that will open up directly to the uh outdoor patio and Courtyard area now at the other site on belur Town Road um here are some photos um of of that site um that the town had uh uh purchased for for affordable housing and the current site has two vacant single family homes that um will be um removed or demolished as part of that um is as as part of the Redevelopment um at Bel the belter Town Road will be entirely new construction um the the three-story building will create 47 units with a mix ranging from Studios to three bedrooms as well and the building will have a combination of flat and pitched roofs echoing traditional Barn architecture of New England while creating the appearance of a series of connected smaller buildings uh the buildings can configuration will provide several roofs oriented it for solar arrays similar to the East Street School elevator access will be provided to all levels and there will be indoor bike storage laundry room community room for the residents in addition to a management office um this is the rendered typ plan of the Bel Town Road location and it is across the street from Colonial Village uh the building is cited aligned with the road and with the parking and drop off pickup area to the rear of the building here um and then it backs up to uh conservation wetlands area back here uh the u-shaped footprint allows for a common uh patio Courtyard area for residents that will also connect directly to the community room within the building um and here's a closer look at the beler Town Road site plan um is noted before the parking is located in the rear of the building and the u-shaped um uh footprint allows for the common patio with the uh um community room in this area for the residents to use um here's a a schedule the development is currently in the design due diligence phase and we have submitted our application to the state um to start the permitting process uh with the town uh following the pering with the town we will pursue our financial and funding applications the state's executive office of Housing and livable communities or eohc uh formerly known as um uh dhcd as well uh due to the competitive funding round uh process we expect the financing to be complete um leading the development into Construction in at 2027 and with the start of construction we anticipate uh 18-month construction period wrapping up and being fully leased in 201 28 um as mentioned before we recently submitted our project eligibility application or plal application to eohc or hlc um which is the first step in the comprehensive permitting process and I would like to thank the town and planning board members for providing us the opportunity to present the proposed development and welcome any comments that you may have for discussion um and I hope this present this evening has provided you with the information that will allow for your support of the development at both sites um if there are any additional questions I'll be happy to address them and thank you very much that concludes my presentation all right thank you Jamie all right board members um I guess we'll open the floor for questions and comments Bruce I've got four questions but I'll take three of them and then let others in uh the fourth one is a little more uh um elaborate um the first is uh uh um Jamie the the open space behind the uh East Street project you mention what it was intended for but I didn't quite hear it um that space there a very large space kind of tied in behind houses I don't know how accessible it is but it could be I all sorts of possibilities but what did you say the intended use is for that that space right so um when when the development was put um uh through the uh RFP process the the town wanted to retain that portion for whether or not they um for for some use that they they wanted they wanted to maintain access along the southern portion of the property line here so that uh people would be able to to get back there this site is um and the the it there's there's also a a Wetlands line that you can see right here this is shown in red which sort of um goes around the existing parking area so the the whole field is sort of a you know a wet wetlands area that that would not be um developed and the town is um you know is looking into it's my understanding the town's looking into you know how how best to utilize that space okay that's that's that's quite sufficient number two um oh sorry uh Chris has her hand up maybe she can elaborate on that yeah there are a couple of issues about that property um one is that it has it's currently considered a wetland because um water has been backing up there there for a long time there's a blocked Culvert that is being proposed to be cleared and it's possible that at some point in the future that area will be more um dry and able to be used for playfields not formal playfields but you can see from this uh picture that was just shown previously that um Watson farms and the um tow houses on Main Street as well as a lot of single family homes um surround the project and um it would be very nice to have a play area for children who live at Watson Farms or the Main Street housing so that's all I have to say thanks all right thanks Chris go ahead Bruce um number two Jamie you mentioned passive house uh uh and I'm not sure how familiar my colleagues are with that but to me passive house is a brand uh for building performance and it's a an exceptionally high it's the highest at least it was when I retired 10 years ago um so have have you mean the actual brand passive House Performance you're going to pursue a passive house registration yes that is that is um that is correct yep we are we are in the process of that and we're working with a sustainability consultant that's um a passive house consultant that is is working with our architect to um to pursue that at at both sites will this be the first project that you've sought and and hopefully achieved or have you achieved sought or achieved this standard before um for for for the wayfinders team it it will be I it's my understanding that it'll be the first passive house for our sustainability consultant and our architect it's one of um in our in our development team it's it's one of uh projects that they've they've worked on and and have um been able to um yeah well congratulations uh just so everybody knows uh this is uh um a quite extraordinary standard I mean for example the uh the air tightness and so forth is probably four times as tight as or three times as tight three or four times as tight as the average well-built house uh currently is achieving so um it's a difficult standard to achieve or it was 10 years ago uh number three um and then I'll stop for moment um the uh I I this is a good one because I think the site plan you've used this site quite nicely um the building is close to the street but it's a um it's a common in uh between that and the main thoroughfare here and I think it fits very nicely um and a very nice and and folsome use of the site can you flick to the site plan for The belter toown Road Site um it this one seems to me that the building is pushed way up close to the road it's a big building and uh this is a fairly open uh roadway I mean the space around the buildings you can see it from here how uh and so uh this is a a Gateway road to amist and I'm just a little concerned that there's going to it'll be a little shocking to suddenly encounter this building pushed hard up against the road for what looks like um a couple hundred feet of of Frontage at least uh my question is are you forced to do this by Wetlands or sight constraints or would you have the option of uh um pushing it back uh um as much pushing it back to twice the distance that you've currently got yeah yeah so that's that's an excellent question and um there is there is Wetlands a Wetlands line there as well that that we are are working with and um in order to to um you know put the parking area there that was we are constrained with with space and for um you know different different drainage measures and and and designs and that sort of thing and I also believe that there was some input um possibly from the uh from from the town as as as it related to that area and possibly being considered sort of a a you know a village um area so entering that so they had asked that we had cited it closer to the road um we had you know other plans that that showed it you know in different kind of configurations on the lot and that's and that's and that's where it landed thank you Jamie I will probably at least from my personal presence on the board be uh uh arguing that certainly I personally and perhaps my colleagues would uh argue to the town uh officials who are pushing you up against the road to uh push you further back but more of that later that's it for me Doug I've got one more question but I I think I I'll um I I'll wait and let others have a shot all right thanks and Chris I see your hand again uh did you want to comment on some of those last questions I wanted to comment on the um idea of pushing the building up towards the road I think that that's in keeping with um creation of a Village Center it gives you more of a feeling of when you're walking down the street that you have you know um a building next to you and we hope that other properties um to the West as well as to the east will be developed in a way that this feels more like a Village Center than just a place where you know there's parking in front of buildings and then the buildings are way back I think that's one of the the um the previous plan showed parking in front of the building and the building moved way back so the planning staff as well as I believe the uh town manag manager um was more encouraging to have the building towards the road and the parking behind the building um so that's where that came from thank you I'll continue to argue that but a little later on I don't agree with that at all all right uh Bruce why don't you to take your hand down if you're if you're done for that okay sorry um and on that subject Jamie uh what what is the distance from the say from the edge of sidewalk back to the building if you bear with me here for just um one moment tell you I'm looking it up right now and I think it's I think it's on the order of um what the uh what the the current setback is or um right which I want to say is either 10 or 15 feet but hold on one moment and I will um pick up pick the plans here yeah it looks like it it it ranges but right around 11 feet from the from the what what amount I couldn't quite hear you 11 feet from the um front front front property line okay thank you okay Jesse you are next great thanks um thanks for the presentation I had two questions comments also one was exactly the same I was wondering why I was so close to the road I was imagining that for those apartments it would be nicer for them to be pushed back as well but sounds like there might be more conversation about that later so I'll move on to my second question which had to do with um can you flip back to the income distribution side you you had and really it may be premature question but I'm I was wondering how that split between the two sites and will it be an equal mix at both properties like like of the distribution or is that too early to think about um well that is um yeah it is it's split up I will say that the 10 market rate units are going to be at the 31 um Southeast Street site due to the um income restrictions that are placed on the belur Town Road site as it was um purchased for affordable housing so the market rate units will be at um 31 Southeast Street however the and uh there will be a mix of um 6 50 and 30s um at that at that site and then with with I believe some 80s but we we kind those numbers sort of uh you know move around a little bit but this is this this depicts what they are kind of overall um and I'd be happy to you know send you kind of what the preliminary U mix is but but there are um I'd have to check to see to make sure that there's 80% um Ami unit at E Street site but that I will say that the all the market rate units are at E Street site and then there's a mix I know of 60s and and um 50s and 30s as well so okay thank you that's fine enough okay so Jamie on that subject um does the designation of units uh is that fixed at the time of uh the opening of the project like you know if if a if a unit is a market rate unit on day one is it always a market rate unit is a if a unit is a 30% Ami unit on day one is it always a 30% or does is there some flexibility over time uh my understanding is that the the income restrictions are are are are are put in place from the start of it and uh and it will maintain that and this these um these properties are are through a 99-year lease with the um with the town of ammer is how um wayfinders will be gaining site control of the properties to construct it and um for that for that period it will be um they will be income restricted as as as they are um you know initially um okay so in that sense uh or in that case you know is the 30% Ami unit a great deal smaller than an 80% Ami unit I mean if I looked at a floor plan could I figure out which ones were for smaller rents and which ones were for bigger rents uh uh no you couldn't and that's actually one of um wayfinders uh design standards that we try to do is to keep all the units um almost exactly exactly the same if we can so there isn't that you know difference between a 30% Ami unit or a market rate unit or a you know a 60% unit or an 80% unit the only units that are any larger are the um Ada uh accessible units that um that that need to be larger just due to the um you know the uh the the area um you know additional area that's provided for uh residents for their um for for movements okay thank you uh Janet thank thank you um I have a few questions and some comments um one of the things that we were talking about when we were looking at the um New Fort River School was the question of access from um this project and some of the other residences on the west um to Fort River and so I know that's going to be kind of worked out later but have you given some thoughts about how kids can safely walk across that that street to get there or um is that part of yeah there is a sidewalk on Southeast stre here and then there's a crosswalk here is that so you were thinking kids would go to the North and then cross at the crosswalk and not just go across the common and try to get to school is that well I'm saying that there is a there is a path that's provided there is a a sidewalk provided and a crosswalk here um it as far as in the school is over in this area correct is that um it's actually um it's going to be further south you see where the whole parking lot is for the school it's going to be south of that so oh okay so and then there's going to be a driveway access where it's kind of hard to see there's just like a gray long gray building kind of to the bottom of your thing and that's that's going to be where this the school is going to be adjacent to that and so I wonder if if people are going to kind of go south and try to across to get there instead of making a big loop so um maybe I maybe this is suggesting that um you guys talk to the Fort River School people and stuff like that because they're doing some kind of tra maybe Chris can help out they're doing some kind of traffic analysis and trying to figure out how people are going to move around so I think um I could just see instinctively kids or families wanting to walk to the South and cross over the common to get to school like as quickly as possible because as we know often children aren't really leaving early and stuff so I I think I just want to tag that as a future issue um the other question I had is I would assume people who use that field are either living around there or might drive and park there and use the field to play like soccer games and things like that so if people wanted to use that field would they be able to parking the spaces or is that or they would have to park along the common has thought been given to that um yeah my understanding is that if uh if there was if if people were to access the field that that they would have to um look for public parking okay the other thing I want to say in the beginning is it's really nice to see this project moving forward I remember hearing about this in Housing Trust meetings I I want to say five years ago could easily be eight um and I know how much effort this takes I thought you know I I thought thought the appearance of the um Southeast Street School like did a really nice job of fitting into the houses around there which are mostly white for some New England reason um and you know had the peak roofs and kind of colonial style I love the fact that you're saving the Southeast Street schools because I think that's kind of a cool building um unfortunately when I looked at the beler Town building I just I just all I could think of was the phrase It's singularly unattractive it it doesn't seem to fit any kind of New England style it seems like too close to the road very generic looking kind of it doesn't look like a barn it doesn't look like anything in the area and that is actually one of the criteria for um a special permit is that you know the project does not create disharmony with respect to the use scale and architecture of existing buildings in the vicinity and I just I just I just you know I went on the website of the um architects and you know cranberry Manor and Carpenters gland look in East Hunton look great Olympia Oaks looks great a lot of the lwi income housing in the area is really welld designed and I felt like this wasn't up to that standard and I wondered um if it was moved back if the building was actually maybe taller but had some peaked roofs and kind of a more New England style it would not only look better as you in for the people in the neighborhood but also for the people in the building and I'm afraid that this is going to be seen as so unattractive that people aren't going to be supporting low-income housing in our town like you know I I I you know the project that you built on Main Street in Northampton people think is fantastic and I just don't think this is up to that standard and so I really would hope for some more design that would fit into the neighborhood more and look more New England or if it was going to be looking like a barn that it looked like Barn it just doesn't it doesn't I don't know I just I just I felt like that was really just not a very attractive building that I don't think I want to live in and doesn't really fit into the neighborhood which is you know kind of harsh to say but I just feel like someone has to say that well well we're here for comments so so I I I I appreciate you know I appreciate the comments and I can definitely relay that information back to our our Arch as well thought wondered why the roof on the kind of big bulky gray part if it seemed like it should be slining the other way to C more catch more solar but I might I'm not you know I might be missing something but I think that's facing north facing but I I would I would wouldn't mind more height with more detail and maybe that would shrink the the physical size of it or it could move it back more okay Janet uh thank you and we'll move on to Fred uh thank you Mr chairman uh just a couple things one uh Janet made a great point about with the new the location for the new uh School building on Southeast Street uh the uh the pedestrian traffic is going to be well to the uh south of the existing crosswalk at uh Main Street and but the thing is I I think it' be so much to the South I think it's actually where uh the uh uh that uh extension at the uh South End of the Town Commons where the the the road that runs on the uh west side of that common uh curves and go and rejoins Southeast Street proper and uh so there is actually a logical place for a Crossing that would lead directly to the new school building so there there may be a very simple fix to to that issue now um uh the uh I do want to comment on the amount of parking uh I think uh particularly on Southeast Street I think the amount of parking there is completely unrealistic and you got that large uh piece of property there uh I understand that you got some uh push back from uh the town because of uh Wetlands that probably isn't actually a Wetlands probably won't be wet when the Culver's fixed um but I think a Fair portion of the uh north end of that uh should be additional parking for the uh for the building I uh I think it's magical thinking to think people are going to want to be there and and not be able to park a a vehicle there um and regarding belter toown Road uh um I'm 100% with Bruce CM on that one uh that building again this is magical thinking on the part of some people in the town I guess that think that uh okay if we if we put this up there this close to the uh the setback that uh somehow we will magically create uh compatible construction uh all all the way around on either side you know uh and I think that's just not going to happen um I and uh I I think the building should go back and and uh as Janet said there's uh solid support in the zoning bylaw for something that is more consonant with the uh the prevailing construction I I think this is asking for trouble um and it looked to me that the I like the idea of the parking in the rear and it looked to me like there's room to move the whole thing back and uh and not disturb that thank you Mr chairman okay thank you Fred thank and can I just make one um one correction um I I believe I misspoke earlier about the the distance to the to the setback there I I was just double-checking the the plans and I realized that it was on the order of uh approximately 20 ft from the property line the the 10 ft was the east or the 11 ft was the East Street School was a little bit a little bit closer so just I just want to correct myself my 20 20 feet okay thank you uh Bruce I guess we're back to you okay a couple more things first of all just further to frad on the school the East Street School site and the parking um I I'm not sure whether I agree with him or not or whether others but it's possible that uh more parking could be asked for and uh and as Chris has pointed out that there's a cvit that's created the Wetland problem if that's uh essentially accurate uh I would uh here I think urge the town uh who I guess it's the town who owns this parcel um or whoever does to unblock that cver uh more or less immediately because you can uh you know the the the the parel can revert to non Wetlands gradually but it's gradual and if uh so it would be if it were done now you would have three or four years for the for the U for the for the the wet areas to gradually become formly and and uh uh not so so I think that in order to give the possibility for a little more parking to exist on that parcel uh moving expeditiously to unblock that culit would be a a good proactive uh um strategy um but uh what I really want to do is to to refute Chris's uh um I'm not to refute it to actually uh speak as powerfully and and and compellingly as I can uh against the logic that's apparently being put forward by Town officials whether it's the town manager or the Paul Rob Mora or whoever it is um is Fred used the word magical thinking I think that's a pretty good one um the idea that you can make this place villagey along it's it's a main road it's a it's a state road it's the main road into amist it's got traffic streaming past it all the time this is never going to have an intimacy associated with anything vaguely Village Center and it's it's it's it's it's it's Madness it's it's idiocy to imagine that uh uh that you can uh you know is quite quite quite quite analogous to Mr Cano who tried to demonstrate that he couldn't uh stop the tide from coming in um it's that level of uh um hubus I think that would be associated with the idea that you would push a developer to push something in that location and a building as big and massive as that to imagine that there's going to be some int intimacy created uh when you're 20 foot away from a heavily traffic traveled Main Road into amist with such a a massive um um bulky and I agree with Janet unappealing building so um this logic that apparently um Chris is referring to was uh applied at the Mill District um on the uh Co lane side of that development and once again up there we have a built example of the fallacy of this particular uh Endeavor or proposition or wishful thinking and you've got this wall of for stor right up against the street casting a shadow right across the street and it's it's tremendously oppressive and it has the absolute obverse of uh creating an intimate uh um sidewalk space so I'm probably haven't ever before on this board and maybe hopefully never will have to again make such a an tempted a passionate plea for common sense and to uh to to just completely um dispatch the idea that uh pushing that building up against the road is anything but a supreme fallacy um okay that's enough of that um I think uh further to that though I agree with Janet that this uh whereas the East Street Building is quite nice and in scale and fits well and so forth and and and uh wayfinders have done a good job in other places Olympia Drive and so forth but that building as it is proposed here on beler toown road is clunky and awkward unappealing it really doesn't have any Grace not not any Grace at all really it's it's formulaic by someone who doesn't understand the formula I would suggest and uh it does risk having the effect of of turning people off um affordable housing the it'll it'll it'll it'll give the nimes an extra dose of tonic and uh and that's not a good idea we don't want to create uh public affordable housing that people can point to and say we don't want more of that that's really a disservice in all sorts of ways so I would uh ask that the uh developer improve the look and feel uh the Elegance the grace the scale um um an intimacy of that building as well as pushing it back from the road um uh if we put as a town hundreds of thousands of dollars into this building of course others will be putting Millions but even for that relatively minor fraction perhaps of the total cost we deserve better it's our town it's the entrance to our town um we deserve better I believe that's it for me okay thank you Bruce Janet right Janet you're still muted oh thank you sorry I can't believe I'm still doing that how many four years in um I was going to say maybe the the the part of the building that's on the street could be you know like obviously improved in its appearance but less big and put you know more of an extension in the the back or more of like a courtyard um sort of situation just to make the it's not so oppressive to the street the other thing I just wanted to say as a legal issue is that once a wetland is created you can't kind of uncreate it with um just by unplugging things and so um I think the town would have to go to the Conservation Commission if it wanted to clear the Culvert there's a there's a legal case um for um at in Hadley um I think to the Target there's a big sump that you know I think they just didn't clean it enough and it turned into a wetland and then there's this court case which basically says it's a wetland and so you know you let it become a wetland and you can't sort of undo that and so I think in this situation you know the plants the soil the wetlands plants and soils is like it's not like we can just clean out I think it's too late to clean out the covert and just hope it goes away and I think the town will have to go to the concom so we can't look to that area and say oh there's more parking there though it might be more parking depending on where the Wetland is so legal caution all right thanks Janet uh Johanna before I call on you Chris you've had your hand up did is there anything that's been said you wanted to respond to yeah a couple of things um I'm not going to argue about the um building being close to the road or not but I wanted to point out two things one is that um beler toown road is a is a Town Road it's not a state highway way it's a town road all the way to the belter toown line so the town has control over what happens along belr toown road and in fact we have a grant to improve sidewalks and other pedestrian amenities along Belton Road so that's a good thing um the other thing is on the Wetland issue um the Wetland issue on East Street School um I'm not saying that it will no longer be a wetland if the Culvert is cleared out um the town has gone to speak to Aaron jacqu about uh actually taking the culbert out and recreating a stream that was once there um and that would be a natural mechanism for draining that uh area um I'm not promoting a parking lot there but it could be turned into a place where it would be more usable for children to play um and the town is going to continue to mow it so I don't think the town has an in ENT to change it from being a wetland to something else the town has the intent to return it to a more natural condition where it doesn't have a um you know an unnatural Culvert draining it and would have a more natural stream so just those two things and one more thing is that Nate Malloy is in the audience I don't know if he's available to speak to you but um he was very much a part of the conversation about pulling the building up to the road and so you may want to hear what he has to say about that and this was would be in regard to the Belchertown Road site thank you okay um Pam maybe you could bring Nate over into the panel and um joha why don't you go ahead with your comments and then we can hear from Nate sounds good I'm looking forward to hearing from Nate um I have a question and then I have some thoughts so um first my question is with regard to the Ami I'm just curious what happens if a tenants income goes up beyond that are they grandfathered into that apartment or if they get a more lucrative position are like do they have to leave their apartment how does that work um then on the belra Town Road Project when I first saw the design my first thought was this reminds me of some of the developments that have popped up in Northampton where route nine meets con Street and it's certainly different from anything that's on route nine right now but I am trying to keep an open mind about it and I think um it has the potential to be the start of more of a Village Center type feel in East amorist um you know I'm excited that the sidewalk is going in there I think the new school is going to have a little bit more of a modern feel as well so um you know if Jamie is willing I'd be interested in hearing more and like hearing his reaction to the comments about improving the Elegance or the grace um and what else was considered but I also I'm interested keeping an open mind about this um and then on the Southeast Street um site I I really love the idea of thinking about how this new building integrates into how people walk bike you know around the new School site so um I think the town is doing some work around thinking about how those intersections are going to work north and south of um you know at Main Street and at Route 9 if at some point the town could give a briefing to the planning board about what's planned there um I think that would be really helpful that's the end of my comments thank you thanks Johanna um and and I can I can speak to the um speak to the uh the litech uh questions over the income restricted units once they if they enter in um the litech agreement they can they can stay there if if their if their um their their income um goes up they don't have to leave um and um yeah and and and as far as the school as not as the school but as far as the belur toown roadside I know that we've worked with the architect to um you know have them sort of develop these presentation um sort of renderings and things like that and you know like to to to get a more of a feel for the for the for the building but it is just sort of a you know computer generated rendering so um but yeah I I appreciate all the all the comments and you know I'm I'm happy to take that information back to you know back to our design team to to to discuss further okay uh do we have Nate uh Nate uh are you with us and if you if you are could you uh maybe give us some thoughts about how you've uh guided wayfinders on the [Music] sighting yeah I was just G to share my screen quickly um all right Jamie you'll have to stop sharing for a moment is that visible for everyone I was gonna do East Street school and then belur toown Road y so everyone Nate mooy yeah I was listening sorry I was in the car for a bit and then I've been uh just eating dinner the um so at the east3 school site uh this whole back field is considered a wetland it's it's not developable it probably won't ever be and so you know the town's idea was to keep this as passive open space for Watson Farms Housing here for Main Street housing for the Neighbors here so there's uh open gates in the fence and this is used now for informal Recreation this back field and the intent the intention is to always use that as as kind of informal passive Recreation uh maybe picnic areas you know it's not going to be used by the rec department as a as a you know regulation size field that hasn't been for a number of years but the idea is that this is going to be open space in a pocket park for this neighborhood so that you don't have to cross the streets to go to the playgrounds at Fort River you can but this basically is like a backyard for this little neighborhood um and then in terms of what's happening with the circulation we have block rant money the town's applied bordon received a fair amount of block rant money uh and some other funding to uh repay Southeast Street improve the water line and Sewer lines on the street U make connections service connections to the six properties on on on this extension here uh in preparation for this and so there's been discussions about you know right now it's unregulated parking along the street and so we've had discussions about you know could it become resident permit parking right a sticker permit for residents of this development or could there be ways to in increase parking on the street that would serve uh this development or some of these the few residents here uh right now it could be that anyone can park here and then catch the bus right so it might be that you know you go down here on a normal day there's 20 cars parked here and half of those aren residents of this neighborhood they're here because it's free parking and they can catch a bus and so we're looking at ways to to address that uh you know in concert with this development in terms of pedestrian circulation the idea would be to improve the sidewalks north and south and create a a better crosswalk here to the South to the main entrance and create a better crosswalk and intersection here so people can go north and come in this way there's a pedestrian access to the school that'll come down here to the new school and then there'll also be a pedestrian connection along here the new school so that's something that's been um you know is being considered I I don't I won't um you know the final designs aren't there yet but that's something that you know we're the town is looking at and you know the block grant money will get us to here right it's not going to cross Southeast Street but it'll provide pedestrian sidewalks to the point where there's a new crosswalk on North and South and then there'll be other funding that would have to address that um you know the town was really pleased with wayfinders design for this site we STI ated that the East Street School needed to be saved we thought that their new building uh kind of townhouse style uh um you know from the front um you know really did that you know the historical commission looked at this this week and they asked about you know could the school be more visible but because this is all wetland in the back here you know if you were to maintain a pretty big cone of visibility to the street You' really limit the development potential of this site and so for the town you know the benefit is where reusing this school into six units and we're also getting 30 units of of new housing here in right in the in the Village Center for Bel toown Road the properties are right here one of the original Concepts was parking in front and honestly it looked like an office Park to have a double loaded parking in front of the building and so the town staff and as as was mentioned the town manager um really wanted to bring the building closer now in terms of you know is it a is it at the right distance now I mean that's something I think that could be discussed so in this aerial image we could see you know Southeast Street Commons over here and what the distance is granted this is still part of the RightWay this is kind of a vestage of the historic common down here but you know what is this distance and you know could it be mimicked over here if we want to have some distance from the beler toown road I mean beler toown road is busy and loud and so um you know I think those are some nice comments I think the issue in terms of the architecture is one that's been brought up for and I think it's something to investigate I I think that the belter toown road um U building could to me it's actually the courtyard facing the parking lot is actually more of its front entrance than facing the street and I think that there could be some some you know some consideration for how how it faces the street uh breaks down Ming roof lines or other things and so that's something that happened at North square is something that could uh happen here uh the town has massworks money block R money and other money to redo belter Town Road the idea is to put 5 foot six foot sidewalks on both sides of the road uh we'd go to the FX extent of the right of way so the sidewalk from where it is now will be pushed into the property by five feet about or whatever it is that's what the right of way is so wider sidewalks bike Lanes on both sides of the street uh and really trying to get Belchertown road to be you know um kind of multimodal uh the the the bus stops and Colonial Village will be improved there'll be a crosswalk here so residents can exit this building and then catch the bus uh bus stop either way route N9 is still too narrow to have an inroad bus bus stop so um it's really not it's been investigated by public works and tvta but you know as Chris mentioned you know this is uh will be one building through a comprehensive permit the planning board has been looking at East Street or East Village and so perhaps in the future you know this is a different zoning and you know 34 story buildings would be allowed and so this building would be in better context but I think the idea about what you know what does it look like now I think is a good one um and then oh just one last thing about the units so the units are fixed uh depending on the subsidy a specific unit may have to stay at a certain Ami right so if it gets other subsidies it might always have to be like a 30% Ami unit but typically if someone um in incomes up if they're 140% of a unit income they uh they will then no longer be income eligible and that unit won't be considered affordable they can stay in that unit and then essentially the next available unit of the same bedroom count has to become the affordable unit so if someone if a household in a three-bedroom unit uh you know they they they're there and uh the the earners start making more money and they are no longer income eligible they're not evicted but that unit doesn't you know no longer is Affordable and then the next bedroom size when it becomes vacant has to be marketed affordable and so that's typically how these developments will work uh we don't necessarily call them floating units but you know it's the idea is that when it's designated there'll be the proportional mix of one twos and threes or whatever it is in the income limits and then in the future it could move a little bit so you know if you know unit 212 is Affordable it might not be affordable in 10 years but a comparable unit would be and it would still have the same unit mix you'd still have the same number of one twos and three bedrooms at those income levels um but it may not be the same you know units in for each floor plan I don't know if there's anything else want me to touch on or well we we you you can say what you needed to say right now and and I I know I have a few comments and then if you want to comment further that'll be an opportunity um so I I will uh offer a few comments it looks like everybody else is had their their say um first of all on the uh Southeast Street property um I was disappointed that the old school is partially obscured um in in a way that doesn't look very intentional it just looks like the front building just sort of ended partway across the old building and um you know I guess I I if you haven't thought about turning a corner with the new building and so that it's in l-shape and and connects to the old building on the on the north side of the uh old existing building I would encourage you to look at that because I suspect you could get a couple of additional units by turning the corner there that would replace shortening the building and moving the end of it farther to the north so you know that was disappointing you know the old school building is not a hugely hugely attractive building uh it's Charming in its own way but it's not a an architectural Monument um so you know that's not a deal breaker for me but it it did look sort of unplanned I guess I could say um second of all the we didn't see any floor plans for the the the Southeast Street building but you know it's sort of and the rendering didn't really tell me but I it looks like there really aren't any unit doors on the east side of that building facing the street and so you know what kind of Residential Building is that that that doesn't have any front doors facing the street especially on that in that setting on that common so I would encourage you to have some units on the first floor of that unit of that building that face the street um maybe the the units upstairs do something else uh you know maybe they're accessed from the lobby on the back and you go upstairs and down the hallway but um it didn't seem like a very Urban uh a very appropriate solu response to that context um next um I guess I wondered uh whether you thought about having an additional story on the building you know there there seems to be a pressing need for additional units in this town uh that are affordable and could you put another story on the unit on the building and keep it relatively contextual I think that would be worth at least considering although maybe maybe we're past that point all right so then moving to the belter Town Road property um I I disagree with Bruce about the absolute uh fantasy of putting the building where it's shown especially hearing that it's 20 feet back if it were 11 feet back I'd have some qualms myself um I think 20 ft is plausible um as long as we're sure that Belchertown Road will never be four lanes as long as it's two lanes okay maybe I mean I'm open to that um I I I but I share Janet's uh qualms about the architecture it looks to me like a Holiday Inn uh that brown brick and with a little bit of white trim looks like half a dozen uh holiday inss that I've I've seen and some of which I've stayed at um so I I think you've really missed it on the architecture and um I think if the architecture were better we'd be less worried about the setback um although I don't know about Bruce and um again you know you've got a sort of nominal front door on belter Town Road and um you know I can understand you know maybe this is a a larger scale building with in internal units that are internally accessed so maybe it doesn't really need to have individual units facing belter toown road but right now it's just just giving us the very minimum nod to addressing the street and I wish it were a little more deliberate about that um um I guess the that I think is pretty much everything I was going to say um actually I was going to just ask about did you consider putting another story on that building um maybe I'm the only one in the room who uh you know wants to increase the number of of affordable units but uh particularly on that site I think I I could see a fourth story and um you know we have we we have talked to a board of after we finish with University Drive looking at this stretch of belter toown road and um I at least envisioned that we would be looking for larger buildings that were relatively close to the road parking behind or beside or not at all and um so to me this is not out of character with where I think we had where I had envisioned that part of town going um so uh I see Bruce has got his hand up and Chris you're you're you're next you've got your hand up I just wanted to encourage you to think about how the ratio of parking to unit would be changed if you added a fourth story so I'm not saying anything negative about that idea but that does have repercussions if you feel that there isn't enough parking on some one or other of these sites then adding a fourth story would exacerbate that problem on the other hand if you think there's a fine amount of parking and there's bus service then that wouldn't be a problem just right reminding you of that issue okay well um one sort of reference I was thinking about was the the new affordable housing complex on Northampton Road and uh my recollection of that site plan was that the amount of parking was not you know was pretty minimal there too and um so so what I saw what I see in these plans doesn't look particularly out of character if it's the same type of of complex um you know I know that complex was more it seemed to be more uh geared toward people who've been homeless and and maybe this is their first living unit since they've been homeless so maybe there's an expectation that fewer of them would have a car but um I don't know uh you know to some degree I I I trust wayfinders to know their market and to know how many cars they need uh as I do with most landlords uh Bruce is this time for Counterpoint no no I'm I'm I'm not at all no I'm not interested in having fin words on anything now essentially I two things I I agree with Doug and particularly what you said last about what don't I I think the message that if we were you if we were fully supportive Doug of your suggestion which I I think we probably could be argued into it then gives the developer an opportunity to think uh out of a box or beyond the box that he may think he's in um and so yes I think think we should uh um see whether their the developer would prefer uh two reasons for that one is that as I understand there's already elevators in the building so that's a that's that's so so why not use them that's number one number two is um part of the opportunity to improve the Elegance or interest or whatever you want to call it uh particularly of the uh let's say of the uh um uh Belch toown Road building would maybe to have uh part of it four story and part of it two story or in other words to have a more dramatic uh uh contrast uh ma in in massing and and having an additional story on part of that building would uh would be one uh architectural um U solution concept for achieving uh what much most of us I think have been arguing for here which is a more interesting and a more engaging building um finally back on East stet simply a question Jamie um could you bring up the elevation of the rendering uh it's just something that I saw which I think I understood or it seemed to me as though the roof of the east facing side of the building where the rendering is from the East um overhangs rather dramatically the um the Second Story Windows uh of that uh of those those units and it seemed as though and I think you can even see it in the in the rendered shadowing um is um it's pretty dramatic um and and uh it seems as to me as though that roof line uh comes right out from the face it looks it appears as though it's almost a 6 foot or overhang and uh that seems as though those upper story windows are being severely shadowed and I wondered whether that's just something that you haven't got around to thinking about before or whether there's a reason why you've got uh such um such a dramatic overhang on that side that's just a a I was puzzled when I saw that yeah and I'm I'm happy to to speak to that and yeah that that was discussed and and we can definitely discuss that further with the architect one of the reasons was is um how some of these um peaked roofs and valleys come into um and how they meet and and and that sort of thing so they were they were kind of designed with that that um taking that into account um and and one of the reasons I guess there there is a front entrance here a front entrance door here and a front entrance Door over here and the units um you're right they they they open up to a a common hallway and that's the way they're accessed and one of the um the the reasons for that or or the the idea behind that is that that we're trying to create the units that are that are the same I know that the question came up before as as far as you know these units are similar to these units and and not to have sort of any I guess you know um a diff you know any inequities between the you know the residents that might be in a one bedroom on this floor versus that floor or or or wherever so the um there is a front entrance right here that door that you cannot see and then another one here and then around the around the corner here is where that that um that um that kind of that Courtyard area is and I can uh sorry get to the right screen here and then so so there's a there's an entrance here and this is this is sort of where the community room and community area is and and it opens up to this nice nice Courtyard um area for for the residents and yes there is a hallway that that that travels through here and then another another entrance um you know to the street over here and um and then sort of a you know a corridor the the management office in in the corridor to to the elevator that's based here and then here there's there's there's six units like pretty much um this is sort of like an elevator lobby area um and then on on both floors and then the the other three units are are across this portion of it so um so so yes there there were you know certain things that were discussed as to how you know in in in an effort to keep um you know similar sized units uh you know with the same amenities for for the you know for for the residents that that was taken into account and um that's that was one of the reasons how we um you know decided to um to to to pursue that path all right thanks Jamie uh let's see board members any more comments at the moment I see one hand in the public uh so I'd like to get to that before we break and we are approaching 8 o'clock so Fred uh thank you uh regarding Southeast Street uh uh just a a thought uh regarding parking I I would uh try and find as much parking as you can uh consistent with the the Wetland situation uh and the reason is that some of these uh units of course are designated as market rate and I can tell you if uh if I were thinking about paying market rate for an apartment in Amis I would want to know that I can park a a car there and uh so I I think there's this really needs to be uh given some more thought regarding uh Southeast Street I I agree that there's a a difference between 11 feet and 20 feet but uh I'm not convinced it's really enough and I think there's been a I I like to commend uh particularly uh Doug's comments about uh thinking about a fourth story and about the idea of maybe uh making that that four story not everywhere but use it to provide some visual uh attractiveness to the the unit I think uh I think there's a a lot of virtue to those comments uh and uh I still I like the parking being behind it and it looked to me that that uh uh the that could stay behind it and just shift the whole thing a little bit so that it's uh less of a uh uh a a visual intrusion on uh the uh you know the belter toown road location right thanks Fred all right so uh Pam I think we'll go to public comment at this point um so members of the public if you want to make a comment on this uh proposal this is a good time for you to do that and at the moment I see one hand that's been raised for a little while uh Pam if you could bring Pam Rooney over and we'll give her three minutes welcome Pam if you give us your name and your street address thank you Pam roone 42 Cottage Street I really I'm very very excited by these projects and I am delighted to um see the project this far along um I completely agree with many many of the architectural comments that have been made um starting with the Southeast Street Building I appreciate the fact that that the roof overhangs they may be they may be big but but the roof overhangs um uh over at least create some sort of a tier effect on the building to make it a smaller scale that that characteristic um was not applied to the Belchertown Road and the beler toown road is also essentially three stories in the front yet it has a very very different feel uh it is very boxy the first thing I thought about when I saw it was North Square um and and not to say that so North Square however has in its in its sections of facade has much more of a variety of materials and much more differentiation between segments so that it does not appear like a a just a bland uh shed uh so I I really appreciate the detailing on Southeast Street uh don't see why that can't be applied in part to the belr toown road um I appreciated uh the idea of having a an additional floor makes a lot of sense um if if in fact it could be um in a sense the a dormer style that faces away from the road uh you get a little additional height but you don't necessarily have the noise of the traffic and you don't have the visual height that um might be off-putting to people entering Town um I definitely appreciated the comments about setback so while you were talking earlier about the setback proposed for uh belter toown Road it is a it is a major road uh major traffic it is very different from Southeast Street the west side of the common so I looked at uh the setback on the Southeast Street Building appears to be pretty acceptable within within the Comfort Range of some pedestrian walking down that sidewalk however on Belchertown Road I always see people walking from further east coming in toward town or vice versa and so as you were talking I walked outside and measured the setback on Cottage Street Cottage Street is a 25 M hour road Street and the houses on Cottage Street are about 30 feet from the from the edge of sidewalk excuse me from the edge of Road okay I'm I'm almost finished so from edge of road to the front of the house is about 30 feet in that space is a sidewalk but at least it feels like it's set back belr toown is a much more is a much much busier Road thank you very much okay thank you Pam are there any other members of the public that wanted to comment at this point okay I see any other hands uh Janet um a quick comment if we're looking at possibly four stories I would hope that it would be stepped back and so what's presenting on the street is three stories because that sort of fits the Village Center Vibe and um I just think I I do and both of these buildings actually back on to basically trees and a farm in one case and so I think you know building an extra story further back would be helpful to housing but also not if it was steep back it wouldn't impose on the street and just seem so big and kind of out of a context all right thank you so Chris uh I think in your in your introduction you said we had the option of recommending this project um and are we recommending it to Town Council or are we recommending it to the state agency that received this application you're recommending it to the state agency they're look looking for comments from the town and they will accept um individual comments as well as comments from boards and committees as well as comments from town staff and the town manager okay um so Chris when you've done this before uh do you you know put together a letter with some of the comments that we've given this evening um you know kind of the bo I'm imagining something that's sort of says the board generally supports the project and can recommend it however there were a variety of of suggestions or concerns raised and you know here's 10 bulleted items that were talked about in the meeting or something like that that sounds very reasonable okay uh Nate hi Doug yeah so the um the the town's letter will come through the town manager to the state and so it doesn't necessarily involve Council um and so in the past what we've done is we've uh synthesized all the public comments into a cover letter it could be anywhere from you know five to eight pages and it tries to um summarize the general themes of comments so if for instance in this one it's about the architecture setbacks parking and then there's some detail the planning board could have a separate memo as you just mentioned that summarizes this discussion and so the town then then we'll have a cover memo and then it'll include all the public comments received and so when North Square came through this PL phase you know there was 110 letters that were enclosed with our cover memo you know and with East gables on Northampton Road say it was like 50 comment letters and so there's an online form there's been a few comments submitted through that there's been a few emails and so we'll take those all you know on like April 17th uh the week before the 22nd uh that's Monday and staff will start to synthesize and read through and kind of categorize all the comments including the planning boards you know historical commissions Housing Trust and everyone else's okay all right um Bruce do we need to formalize this as a motion in case yeah I was thinking that's kind of where I think I'm headed is is that we you know I guess if I were to make the motion it would be something like you know I move that the board express its General support for these projects and that we charge Chris to you know summarize the conversation this evening with the uh dominant points of concern and uh you know draft a letter to it sounds like it goes to the town manager um to uh to to uh record you know our support and our general comments or something to achieve to achieve say I would simply say so moved because uh that I think is and I haven't added that we should uh like to see the draft before it goes because I think we can trust Chris to handle that but so I would move your motion as you uh articulated it okay all right uh we'll see if anybody wants to second that um Janet you're next um I I would it's kind I mean I support these projects I I I I think if it was clear that we panned the SE the belard Town Road building or had serious concerns about the design and massing and wanted to see significant improvements so it's hard to support something like I'm all for this project and i' I've been for it for five or eight years I can't remember but it's that building I I I can't support that building being built and I would love to see something go there so I don't know if you can convey that uh um we I think that what dou said is there numbers This concerns maybe we should say our support is conditional upon the resolution of of at least some of those concerns all right we don't have to that makes it non-specific I think that's probably helpful because that we could have a quite a long discussion about where the consensus is on what we concern because clearly I've got some things that are more important to me and Doug's got some for him and you've got and Fred and we've all expressed things with different levels of concern and some of them rise to the point where as I said I don't think affordable housing should be tired with a particular type of brush and so obviously uh my my my expression of support falls short of uh just a little short of that but I think that uh the the applicant is here to uh hear what we have to say we know the this applicant is not somebody who's just arrived in town or in the in the in the region I think we can trust that they will take what we've said I think that our support conditional upon resolution of some or all of the concerns would be a reasonable way of proceeding so I I could guess we could amend the motion slightly to that effect if you like but uh I I will second your motion with amendments if that's procedurally okay I'm not sure you can take friendly I'll take those friendly amendments to Doug's Doug's verbalization reping Chris Chris is gonna need to listen to the recording um Chris your hand was up and did you want to say something I know Nate is up to well I just wanted to mention that this project will come back to you when it is more finely designed you know this is really a first pass and it's really at the conceptual level so I think um it was really great that you made all these comments and we'll try to incorporate them all but what you're doing really is just giving the project a general um vote of support in my opinion with with concerns listed all right I basically think we we've supported it by spending an hour and a half talking about it if we didn't support it we wouldn't have this long all right uh let's see I see Nate and Fred so Nate why don't you go next and then we'll go to Fred yeah yeah thanks Fred for your patience yeah I was GNA say that at this phase uh you know the state looks at is the site generally developable is the concept plan generally appropriate you know does their proforma budget uh you know is it financially feasible so it's kind of these General it's like seven to 10 or whatever kind of General criteria U and so you know the specifics right now are can be important so I think you know um and like Chris said they'll have a chance you'll have a chance to look at it again so I think these comments are great and the state often will then reference back in their letter saying yes this project is eligible but please bring back you know uh new designs or ideas for the zba that relate to some of these comments and so if if you know parking and architecture are big concerns we can note that in the town's memo and then uh the zba and the the state may also recognize that and so I think you know generally it sounds like yeah we're okay with the you know the number of units the size of the building is you know then kind of how do we uh manage it and make it so it say better fits what we want that the the contextual part of it and so you know that's getting a little more detailed than this the project eligibility phase but I think that's it's fine to have that and to know where we're going uh yeah I think that's that's all I was going to say is that the state will often then you know take those major comments and then put them back on the zba and then any comments made during the project eligibility phase will be submitted to the zba so even if the planning board looks at it again all the comment letters and everything that were discussed during this 30-day comment period gets forwarded to the zba so they look at it um as well so they it gets resubmitted as formal comments when it gets to the comprehensive permit phase so people don't have to resubmit everything twice we just bundle it and make it one of the first comments sent to the zba so they'll see it all again all right thanks Nate Fred uh yeah I'm I'm good with all of that I am my understanding that the uh there's a I mean the devil in these things is always of course in the details um Chris do I did I understand that we would get a look at the letter before it actually goes out um yeah we we would we would ask that yes I can um draft the letter and send it out to you all you'd have to respond individually um to me um and the alternative is to have it brought to your uh April 17th meeting um Nate would that be too late it looks like that would be fine so we could bring it to your April 17th meeting and you'd have another chance to look at it okay well if that's the case then uh I'm comfortable going forward okay great all right um so we have a sort of a motion had that was post that was put forward and amended and uh a second do people feel clear enough about the the motion to have a little roll call vote about your support for that okay all right so uh why don't we just run through the through the board here and uh see if you guys are in support of a of Chris drafting a letter that she can either send to us or include in the packet for the next meeting that uh expresses our general support uh kind of conditional on addressing some major you know so sort of the major concerns that were expressed this evening so uh Bruce I approve uh Fred I approve Jesse I approve Janet I approve Johanna I Karen I approve and I'm and I as a well that's uh unanimous vote of support uh Jamie thanks for coming and putting up with an hour and a half of not all not entirely positive comments but you you kind of have a preview of what we're thinking about when you come back yeah well I appreciate every you know all the time that we've taken to discuss this and and and and you know I thank you all for for your comments and all right good luck and we'll see you soon okay time is 88:18 right why don't we take a FIV minute break and we'll come back at 8:23 please turn off your camera and mute your microphone and when you return turn on your camera at least e e e e e e e e e e [Music] all right uh my clock is showing 8:24 looks like board members are [Music] returning and we can move on our agenda for this evening oh dog I'm gonna keep my screen off for a few minutes but I'm here okay all right we'll wait for Fred to get back there's Fred okay all board members are back I see Chris and Pam so we'll go ahead and do the intro for the next item on the agenda time now is 8:25 and we are going to item four on the agenda a joint public hearing with a site plan review and special permit in accordance with the provisions of Mass General Law 40a chapter 40a this joint public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested citizens to be heard this public hearing is continued from March 6th and March 20th both 2024 it's site plan review 2024-25 d04 South Pleasant Street LLC 45 and 55 South Pleasant Street so joint public hearing to request site plan review approval under section 3.32 of the zoning bylaw to redevelop a mixed use building including reh habilitating the existing Mercantile building also known as the Hastings building removing a rear L of that building and the adjacent Brown building and constructing a new five-story residential building at the new at the rear of the site the project to contain 22 dwelling units in combination with ground floor retail and commercial space and a connecting structure containing a Lobby an elevator a stair and and a stair and to to request a special permit in accordance with section 9.22 of the zoning bylaw to allow a reduction in non-conforming lot coverage from 100% to 97% and to relocate the non-conforming retaining wall and section 5171 of the zoning bylaw to allow payment in lie of affordable units the property located on map 14a Parcels 250 and 281 in the BG TC and Dr and MPD zoning districts board members are there any disclosures at this time for this project I see no hands all right um it looks like Chris you've got your hand up you got something you want to say before we turn it over to Tom and his team yes I would like to say something um so on March 20th um you held a continued public hearing that was continued from March 6 but you didn't take any testimony um so I wanted to remind the board of that so um that essentially that meeting doesn't count in terms of public hearing process um I wanted to note that Jesse major and Fred Hartwell um missed the March 6th uh session of the public hearing and I heard from Fred uh via email that he had watched the um video from March 6th and felt that he was eligible to vote and I think Pam reached out to Jesse and I'm not sure um if she got a response so I just wanted to clear that up before we started so we would know who was going to be voting tonight okay Jesse yes I I watched the videos I did catch up on the meetings apologize I didn't reply thank you thank you all right uh Chris thanks for that and um I guess at this point Tom welcome back thanks for having us uh for the record Tom Rey attorney with bacon Wilson out of ammer here on behalf of South Pleasant Street LLC and its application as the chairman mentioned site plane review in two special permits for 4555 South Pleasant Street in ammer with me this evening uh Barry Roberts the developer and Jonathan salvan from cun riddle who the architect and so last we were here March 6th we got um I think a very good reception of the project and we got some uh very good comments from the board uh we went back to the drawing board we were prepared for the March 20th meeting um but measured twice cut once and so we're now here before you um also in the interim we did appear in front of the ammer Municipal Housing Trust affordable housing trust and they unan unanimously recommended that or supported the planning board's issuance of a special permit for payment in lie of those uh affordable units and so what I will do now is take you through some of the changes um if you've seen the plans and I also sent an email to uh Chris that outlined what those changes have been since the 6th prior to the 20th and then subsequent to the 20th um I think I think maybe the 25th 26th is when we sent in just a final iteration of the plan based on some back and forth with the town we'll go through those comments uh and plan changes the biggest of which is going to be that entry Plaza so I'll go through the other ones first and then I'll let Jonathan talk about the entry Plaza because that initially got the most feedback from the board um and so with that that I will share my screen and walk you through some of the site changes okay so if you uh see my screen it should be an updated grading plan and and these are really the um site plan changes if you're familiar or if you recall we only were planning to use this catch Basin to collect all the drainage on site what we've done is added a trench drain in this area here and so trench trains are much just much more effective at at capturing any water and and runoff and so this is going to capture all of what's coming around the corner and it's being piped down to this catch Basin uh we we also got a letter from Jason skels who wanted us to put in a deep sum hooded catch Basin with a shallow top which we've agreed to do and so that's what this um it's the it's in the existing location but it's being replaced um and then we also uh extended the limit of work to accurately show what that limit would be and so it includes this bump out here we had some utility penetrations earlier but now that limit of work as you'll see actually takes all of this bumped out area including that tactile warning strip um additionally on each side and I think this was uh Karin had made a comment about folks entering and exiting and folks um at this intersection walking across that uh right of way we've added tactile warning strips on each side of this access way as well uh not shown on this plan shown on the utility plan but instead of switching Pages we're putting a a water line into the landscape area just so that there is in fact irrigation and on the erosion and siment control plan uh we we have a fence that's um keeping the right of way here uh open and on the um Northerly side of that we're proposing straw Waddles so some erosion extra erosion and sediment controls um for uh during the construction and so one of the other changes you'll see and I'll let Jonathan really talk about it but besides this entry Plaza generally um is this entryway right here and we're proposing two Granite steps as along with a railing and the railing does come out a a small bit into the uh public way the sidewalk but that's necessary given the Ada access requirements and Jonathan can talk about that a little bit more um I will then go to the architectural plans and so what you see here is that entry Plaza that that Jonathan will talk about um but I'll skip past that just at this time and go on to there was a request for a slide that shows uh or confirms that the commercial space is at least 30% this blue area is that commercial space SP and the green area is the residential space we've got a calculation down at the bottom showing that that ground floor area of the commercial space is 42.2% of that entire first floor floor area uh what we've also got is the EV charger shown on the the back of this support um instead of putting it here where it could interfere with the Ada access we've cited it on this side and then also we've got a a six foot high metal screening fence which we can show you what that looks like this is to screen some hbac equipment for um this existing site there was also a comment uh about the electrical meter meters and so this is you can see over here this is the north side so ammer Cinema is to my right electrical meters there not shown in this rendering but shown here that's where that metal screening is going to be for the HVAC uh equipment and then we also updated the the management plan just to show exactly the number of total units that we were having in their breakdown uh identify the use of those two parking spaces that we showed before one at Ada and then one really for loading um and drop off uh unloading we added a tenant movein uh Logistics plan and also a parking and alternative transportation plan which would be given to the tenants with shows Town parking pvta bus routes bike paths Etc we can get into that if anybody has any questions and then I think it was Bruce comment Bruce's comments last time to maybe update the lease to include that information which we've done and I know that Fred and his email had some additional lease changes we're happy to make those Chang we haven't yet but we're happy to make those changes that he had suggested um and I think with that I'll turn it over to Jonathan to talk about the the entry Plaza if anybody has any questions on those ask now you know we're not going anywhere so we're we're happy to answer them at any time um but I'll turn it over to Jonathan to talk about the entry Plaza thanks um can everyone hear me yes great um so you know we had some good feedback at the last meeting where we were all present um that talked about uh expanding the area potential for seating um as part of the entry Plaza also trying to open it up a bit our our sign was kind of perceived as as a as a visual block yes Tom if you can move down to the the more detailed ones thank you um uh and you know asked us to look at maybe some lower plan things that didn't uh kind of make a a visual wall um and so we've responded to those um and hopefully uh you know get your uh feedback tonight on on that um again I guess I could start with that that location that Tom had mentioned earlier uh connecting our pathway directly to the public sidewalk um the way it comes in on that that rather steeply uh graded part of the uh public sidewalk requires us to put a couple steps in um and you can see the two uh handrails there that that Tom was referencing earlier but adjacent to that um is a seat wall that will vary in height and vary in texture uh with combination of sort of large concrete or not large Granite blocks and some kind of laid up or masonry uh laid up sections as well um Tom could you pan to the right can kind of see it from the other angle there kind of from from back on the site looking back towards the street um I I guess I probably should have prefaced this with one of the big changes we made uh here and is to take the L-shaped uh ramp that we had and turn it into more of a v or u-shaped um Arrangement and that that allowed us to kind of that freed up some some area to do some different things with Tom why don't we move back to one of the one of the plans I think I there we go I may be moving too fast here and go back to the plan and just make sure we hit the hit the basics here um you you probably recall that prior to this we had again an L-shaped uh uh ramp um and we're still you know we still have what we're going to call a fully accessible pathway that comes along the street at the at the south end and moves up this now v-shaped ramp um but we have this stepped accessible uh connection that's kind of a straight path off the off the um off the the front door sidewalk we moved the Transformer to the back um a little further away from the street uh and and changes some of the planting around there I think we had like um grasses initially um and we're showing an evergreen now um a holly that would you know have all all season color let's see if we zoom out a little bit and take a look at the the new signage proposal down there in that lower right in instead of a kind of a a um Monument sign uh with with letters applied to them get sort of a a freestanding letter that would be in probably a stainless steel uh finish um that's a little bit more open um and allows us to kind of see back into that that site better um I I I'm certainly at a point where I think I could people could ask questions if they're if they're ready to I think I've hit all the the major changes um that we've made since the last time yeah we've also provided um updated materials uh so we've provided the specs for pavers uh bike rack handrails and then some examples right of what you're talking about with the granite and the the St okay and and we updated that planting plan as well that we had from before all right all right thanks for addressing the concerns that we've raised last in the last discussion uh board members questions and comments Bruce um uh Tom um Barry uh Jonathan yes I I I I commend you I think you've uh been very diligent in addressing a lot of the things that were said and and and I think quite successfully I I I'll simply ask one question just for clarification here because I think you said this in passing last time but uh clearly the uh what you didn't say now but it's evident from looking at the illustrations there the wall and the uh two steps down to the street uh sidewalk um do extend beyond the face uh the current face of the Hastings building I think you said that although you hadn't taken advantage of this in the last drawing that the uh property line actually was a couple of feet out and so do I correctly understand therefore that the limit of those handrails is at the limit of your property line the it's a little bit more complicated than that the edge of our steps and our um plant and uh bench and planting that is the property line um in our discussions with with the building department it they felt strongly that that that transition from a from the site you know from the the private side of it as it were to the public side Ur at property line um but they were okay with the um handrail sticking in for the extension length um that that it's supposed to have into the public way and that that was looked at by um both uh Rob MOA and I believe Jason Steels is that correct Tom yeah I think the way to say it is you know Bruce the request was to make the site ADA Compliant and that's what was done so it it required know if there was new work being done like here we went right to the property line as a result of that um the handrails extended a bit beyond and so we talked with Jason skills and he had no issue with their extension into that uh sidewalk okay thank you for that I I don't think I have any problem with that either and uh as I say I I like the the RIS I know the what the the uh the way you've created it now is that you've got more of a walk from the street to the entry and the uh ramp is really a branching diminutive uh design element whereas previously the ramp appeared as though it was uh um uh was was the the it was it's different and I think I like it better this way I the seating is is is nice it's not as uh salubrious as I had imagined uh but I think this is fine I like the way that it's uh there's quite a lot of it because of the way in which you've got the capstones on the walls and people can sit and I note that the guy with the long legs can sit further to the South um and so forth so it feels to me and I think that the I particularly appreciate the way you've made the sign equally conspicuous maybe more so but that it's not nearly as uh uh obstructive and I did didn't even really have so much of a problem with it before was obstructive but uh but now that I see what you've done here I I think it's uh it is it is a definite Improvement so I'm uh I'm a I'm a happy camper thank you all right thanks Bruce Janet I I also like this design a lot better I like that the Transformer isn't kind of in the middle of everything and tucked away and I think the plantings are more attractive um I like the the sign with the letters I wondered if that the sort of seat the wall that curves around if it could if it could stay wide so it's still it's still attractive and more inviting to sit and I could see people kind of kids kind of curving around that so I just wondered if that could be the same width all around I also was thinking about the EV charging for bicycles I don't know if you're planning on having EV charging in the um indoor bike stuff but I wondered if you could do an EV charger as part of the um charging for the cars like I don't know if you can do that it seems like these EV Chargers aren't going to be super used so I wonder if that might be a good tweak so people could charge outside and things like that um so I I did think this was really much you know more elegant and attractive and you know really answer our concerns and I think it's going to be really really nice a good ad all right thanks Janet um I don't see any other hands from other board members so I'll put in a couple of comments one is I I am in agreement with Bruce and Janet this looks much better and I I think it looks really good so um in general I think this this is you this is where it should be I guess one thing that I'm just wondering about that seems more evident than it did before the canopy or the awning that's covering ing the walkway is there downlighting in that so that it it uh at night that's going to be a well illuminated area that I'm comfortable walking down and and and is it probably illuminated enough that it isn't going to attract people who are trying to get a good night's sleep outside well we we we we like to think that we'll we will manage that last part as well I believe in this set we have an up dated photometric did that make it into this this it's not in this one Jonathan but I can I can pull it up if you want that's fine I'm I'm not you know I don't need to see how many foot candles you've got I I expect you'll have enough but uh you know you that that awning feels like an optional element you know you could have people keep their umbrella up for another hundred feet as they go to the front door to the building um but you know it's a nice touch so okay yep there help myself Doug oh good all right so yeah so you'll see sofit Lighting in here and then the foot candles underneath it and I you know I don't want to put my architect's head on but I think as far as design goes that awning goes a long way to separating but also joining both buildings you know so you've got the front building with the the in Earnest three stories the back building with a a faux three stories because of the way they designed it elevator piece and this ties it in but also separates it so okay and it's well lit I I'll invite you to my next review okay um thanks for that that response uh we'll move on to Karen um so the the seating is basically this wall and the people are going to be kind of sitting facing the outside the street is is is that right is that I I think you'd have the ability to really to sit the intent is to be able to sit along that whole kind of outer circuit so the first you know piece that kind of uh faces the street allows you to face the street you could continue to sit on the other par that fall the access Drive um but I think the view is going to be more attractive towards the towards the common yeah is there any way that you can have also seating so I don't know is is there a possibility of having some way that people could face each other that you have a little congregation or is it should be just is that impossible I think we would end up having to lose planted area to do that I'm afraid right yeah okay I I like it I guess I pictured in my head I always sort of picture congregating in a in a group across from each other and but this is also nice thank you for all your work okay thanks Karen Fred um yeah I I strongly support this um there was a a comment made at the uh prior meeting uh which I watched online uh um from Vince o Conor which I intrigued me and uh uh he indicated a potential problem with four bedroom apartments turning into some kind of a rooming house situation I tend to think that that is a management issue and I don't think we have a management problem uh in this instance but uh I would be curious if uh Town staff or anyone has any additional comments that uh uh that address that comment from Vince was a it intrigued me uh it's not something I had heard before and I so I'd be curious um I confess I'm having a hard time remembering the specific comment but you're Fred you're saying that it was uh concerning the four bedroom units and whether they pose any sort of management issue or Public Safety or nuisance issue that's that's the way I understood he he made two comments he he uh asked that uh we consider uh rather than the uh uh the payment in Li of uh affordable units that we insist on affordable units in other buildings that Mr Roberts owns and I think uh Chris uh adequately addressed that by pointing out that all of those units have been subject to uh Town proceedings in various ways and you there's no way way to reopen those uh accordingly and uh so I think uh that has been fully addressed the second comment he made was and I from memory it was about mostly on four bedroom units and uh whether they end up becoming some kind of a rooming house and I'd never heard that before and I'm just curious whether there was uh Vince tends to know a great deal about these things and so I'm just curious whether uh there was any additional response to that oh okay so a rooming house in the sense of maybe renting the bedrooms individually and uh not yes renting the unit as a whole yeah and and that I I took that to mean that if you if you lose control over the the the use of these apartments then people come and go and you lose control over the over the tency I I I don't know for sure uh but uh I I thought it was intriguing i' I've not heard that before and so I thought I would follow up on it okay um Chris I'll give you a chance to comment if you want but I think Tom your lease for this building uh would it allow someone to rent the whole unit and then sublease individual bedrooms or something I'd have to look I I haven't considered that that situation is a potential I mean I think typically landlords like to maintain as much control as they can and so sublet and assignment are usually not allowed unless specifically allowed right I'd have to look at the leas to see exactly what it says but that's traditionally how we approach these is it's not allowed unless the landlord specifically allows it so you retain that control and that uh ability to say no there are some circumstances where a sublet is appropriate right if somebody's renting it and they're going away on sabatical or a semester away they don't want to be responsible and they want to get somebody else I can tell you that barries had other property that allow that so I would imagine practically that's how it's addressed okay and Chris has not raised her hand so I'll assume that at least she has no comment on that earlier comment Janet your hand is up so I think that maybe Vincent's concern is if you're renting by the bed and so you know and so I think the lease is everybody on the lease is liable for everything I don't I I think that's what I read but I think when you're renting by the bed it's what's the difference between that and a rooming house and when we have a rooming house in ammer there's somebody who's running the rooming house who lives there and so if there's nobody living in the four-bedroom apartment and people are just kind of coming and going then it's a rooming house it's not an apartment it's a rooming house and so I think that was maybe what he was thinking about and it's kind of a good point I did have once somebody who wanted to rent an apartment I have and I sent my husband out to meet him and it turns out he was like planning on like renting you know renting the whole apartment and then renting out to like 10 or 15 people to live there and which we found to be a very unattractive idea and we're glad that he was so clueless as to tell us although I think my neighbors would have told me so I think that situation everybody every landlord would want to avoid um I a situation this sort of Segways into a concern that I had and I think it could go into a condition which is what happens when if this you know there's only 22 units but there's lots and lots of beds and so if this building is rented out to 90% or 100% students it's basically turned into sort of a private student dorm and I think um which is not allowed except for in this one little tiny part by Olympia place but I my concern is that if it is almost exclusively students bad things happen at night um in students lives and on weekends and I would like to have a condition in the management plan if 90% of the tenants or students that you come back to the planning board and we talk about a supervision plan which could be on-site supervision 247 having a super who lives in the building here comes my cat and I just I do think that you know my fear is that downtown is going to become like UMass Ville and if it does become UMass Ville that every building is making sure that they're maintaining control over the students so I'd like to see that condition go into the um into our conditions all right thanks Janet Tom do you have any comment on that suggestion I mean if jna wants a condition that says if more than 90% of the units are occupied by students then um we'll come back and have a further discussion about a management plan yeah or 90% of the tenants because there's just a lot of beds there um 90 I it's 22 units I hope I'm not making that up right no no you're right it's 22 units so you know I mean it could be 90% of the units or 90% of the tenants you know um it's just that at some point we need we need some big people there to make sure people are making good choices and are stopped from bad choices they're making and for their own safety and you know all the good all the reasons we know so let me think about units versus beds or tenants okay Tom do you even know whether I mean how do you even know if a tenant is a student you know I mean you know in terms of their application to well you want to know if somebody has a job or who what's their income and you always you always know when you have students yeah I I mean I think you would I think you would know you do have to be careful uh fair housing laws and and asking the wrong questions um I know that that you know in other developments we've done 180 fearing street so at the corner of fearing and sunset we've got um obligations to identify what the unit breakdown is and so I think if if if jennet is saying listen if it's 90% or more that and more we can figure out what that is if it's 10in or units but if it's 90% or more than uh of let's say undergraduate students than you know we can come back and have that conversation and say okay here here's what it is we've we've reached that threshold and here's our implementation plan I mean ideally we don't have to do any of that stuff um but if if It ultimately gets us the approval this evening then you know we're willing to accept that okay all right uh Fred yeah I'm not 100% sure that we need to do anything with this um as I think the board knows I've been a landlord for 52 years and uh I have very clear and always have had very clear language in my leases that uh you know you uh collectively are renting an apartment uh and uh you're not you're not renting a bed you're renting a you're you're uh this is a group and you're renting an apartment uh period and uh uh the only persons who are permitted in here other than occasional visitors are the people who are on the lease as a tenant and I have enforced that relentlessly for 52 years and I haven't had difficulty enforcing it because I make it very clear when I'm interviewing prospective tenants um I I you know and I I think the language that I I did go through the leases pretty carefully and I think that this is probably uh clear in the in the leases but um uh if it's not it should be all right thank you Fred Bruce I think this is one of those situations where when you have an applicant who such as Tom and Barry and demonstrated who are comfortably willing to embrace uh and accept a condition like this it's because they have the experience and the confidence that they don't need it um and so it is one of those things that if we if if if if you have to argue with the the person that's probably because you actually do need it in this case the track record of of uh because we we've seen Barry before and and and and his fearing Street units that Tom mentioned and so forth we had a similar conversation and I can't remember whether it was in the planning board or I'm also on the uh as is current on the Local distri District commission and and Ne there was it's not our real Bailey Wick because our because the local historic district commission always or seems to always get these projects first because people want to make sure that they can get the certificate of appropriateness and then they move on to bigger and better things uh this conversation happened with Barry's project down there as well so I I'm I'm uh of the position that uh I don't think we need it but um but maybe we could with a uh a a an applicant who's who's willing to accept it um um actually impose it as a condition and then we have a precedent uh that we can look to if there are certain sances where we perhaps really do and it doesn't therefore become a novel condition that that indicates that it's not a novel condition it becomes something that is uh uh like many of the other conditions that we have on the draft list something that is um Not Unusual so I'm I'm broadly in support of what uh um uh um Janet proposes particularly because uh Tom is willing to uh accept it Tom and Barry are willing to accept thanks Bruce Karen you're next so I'm I'm maybe I'm shouldn't be mentioning this at all I keep looking at this Plaza and you know downtown look at at Amber's coffee how willingly people are sitting scrunched against that building just to be outside and to sit outside and and enjoy town and this Plaza to me is such an exciting thing and I'm now looking at it I'm I'm just going to throw this out and you can throw me under the bus if you want that vertical If you eliminate the plantings in that and make that another sort of bench so that people can also sit there and then that little bit of planting although I green green things are beautiful you just put a couple pots of flowers there to make it nice then you have a space where there's more possibilities to sit out there okay I thought i' better say it because I keep staring at it wondering okay thanks Karen Janet I think it's Jim's turn but I was GNA jump in and first ask Karen where she's talking about but also I think when we think about these conditions it's not to me it's never personal like who the applicant is it's like 50 years down the road or 25 years or people are buying and selling buildings all the time and to me it's like that will give the board and the Building Commissioner authority to come and say okay this building is out of control let's you have a condition here you're not complying with and so I think I would love to see this on all the buildings because I think we just need to always have you know people in charge and responsible and it's not always the people we rent to we also can't say undergraduates because we can't discriminate on the basis of age unless you're 55 plus and you can favor those people so we can say students because that's not a protected class so anyway okay Jesse thanks um yeah I was gonna comment on the this condition also uh well I don't disagree with the intent I'm struggling with how we can make that condition and then how that would be implemented and how you define 90% students as you just raised Janet like it it I think that becomes a big logistical nightmare to are we then asking the manager to provide the town every six months with an update of the percent students as they Define students I see a lot of problems with trying to even manage that um but yeah that just confused me how that could actually happen I guess that's all okay well uh Chris don't we already have a sort of problem building program that if a if a if a property has more than some number of complaints in a certain period of time that they get increased scrutiny from inspectional services and other Town departments I believe that's part of the rental registration program that's being altered and I don't know if that's been accepted yet maybe others know but I know it's being considered by um the CRC and the Town Council right and so I mean it seems like we may already have a way to identify and force a conversation with properties that are out of control um at least if they are exhibiting behavior that qualifies as out of control so I guess I'm I'm not inclined [Music] to uh push a condition like that Karen Karen you are muted still that's a legacy hand sorry okay Bruce uh you're you're next um to uh what Jesse was saying um am I right in understanding the Practical nature of conditions is that I don't think a condition such as Janet proposed would manifest itself in an annual obligation on the town to check and so forth uh to make sure that the condition is being complied with I think it's the kind of condition that is there so that if there's a problem there's a mechanism with legs or with teeth to deal with it so I don't think it should necessarily uh be complicated because it probably with a a a decent landlord probably sits there and uh and is uh only enacted or is only pursued if there's uh if there's a problem I certainly wouldn't expect that we are generating uh by putting these conditions in I hope we're not generating uh with every condition we put in some kind of annual obligation on the town to check all this stuff okay thanks Bruce Chris I see your hand yeah um I I guess I'm trying to imagine how this would um occur are you asking the uh applicant to report to the town about how many students he has in his building on a on an annual basis or a six-month basis The Building Commissioner is not going to go looking for that information he's got many other things to do so how are you imagining that this would um be be handled that's what I'm asking y should I oh sure go ahead Janet my so when we did the um one of the buildings at Olympia Oaks one of the build one of the buildings already built has 247 supervision right because it's full of students and so that condition was also imposed on the new building which I think actually has a livein person and so if if in fact the building becomes 90 95% students it's effectively a private student dorm right which isn't even allowed in the RBG but it's there and my idea would be when you hit that thresold come back to the planning board and say Here's my management plan here's how I'm plan you know maybe we say you need to have somebody there 247 or one you know one of the apartments there's a super but I remember Karen saying you know she was an RA and things go south very quickly with young people on a weekend and you know people could be drinking suicidal or whatever and that's why we have RAs and so if we're basically having dorms downtown we need to acknowledge that and treat it as a safety issue for the people in the building it's not just out of control people but just their own safety and making poor decisions so that was my thinking and so if the burden would be on Mr Roberts or whoever the owner is in the future that you know I assume there's going to be a mix of people right but if it turns into a student dorm let's let's come back to the planning board and let's have a discussion saying okay now you're running a student dorm downtown we normally require 247 someone there because it's a safety issue that's what I was thinking I know it's it might seem like springing out of the blue but truthfully most of the housing we're approving you know we're supposed to you know we're developing 800,000 units most of it is student housing and we're not really regulating it like that okay but if he's will to be the the guinea pig I say let's do it all right thanks Janet Fred yeah I'm I'm not clear that we need to specify students um I would prefer to do this by a uh and by reviewing the lease and uh you know we do get a look at the lease and um you know uh I think we just make sure that the lease has the the kind of language in it which I I think it does um that uh that basically prevents the the kind of outof control turnover that uh was posited at the prior hearing all right Tom sure so maybe I'll try to reain this back in a little bit um I mean there are mechanisms in place already in town should should there be any issues that there are opportunities for enforcement uh in addition I agree with Fred right there's a lease there's a condition in the proposed conditions that says if this leas is changing materially you've got to come back before us and talk to us and so I think that plus I I can't get beyond the fact that this is also site plan review um and so we're not talking necessarily special permit zoning board of appeals for the underlying use right the underlying use is mixed use which is site plan review from the planning board so you know when I take all of those pieces together I think you're sufficiently protected to to guard against or to correct any issues that may occur should you know because I think if what if it's a 95% students and there's not a peep right just because it's it's well-managed already right so you're you're anticipating that well it's students and it must be bad so I'm saying well we've got a management plan in place we've got a lease in place if and then you've got the the enforcement mechanisms through rental registration new since house and just we're right across from town hall so if there if there are issues there are enforcement mechanisms that the the town can use to make sure that it's run properly all right thank you Tom Fred yeah just for the record uh I uh currently rent two apartments and uh they are currently 100% student rentals um and they are not problems so um and partly because of the way I drew the lease so okay Karen well I think partly they're also not problems because you're living very close to it and I think our concern is how do we get more families and non students who also want to live in town and design things that are track for them uh so that we have that mix because really that's what we're fighting we're fighting having losing our historic town to becoming a kind of a student ghetto and having the downtown part be that and it doesn't need to be in in you need diversity and you need to build in a way so that people like me will want to rent one of those apartments from Barry and design it in that way all right Nate yeah so I mean I think that this conversation is uh you know the complimentary pieces the University Drive overlay or other places where we actually are talking about density right so we're not going to solve the student housing piece on a 22 unit development and every time there's infield development if it's all going to be students we need to say well where can we put thousands of beds for students to have developments like this be you know propor fortunately not all students and so I think we're getting stuck on you know when we talk about University Drive now we're saying well maybe we don't want it to be as dense as it could be but here's the problem every time there's going to be a development now we're always worried it's going to be students and so I think we have to start saying well what are the other pieces of the conversation and where can we actually allow students in density and so um the other piece would be inclusionary zoning you know there's ways to say can we have um you know you know perhaps a revised inclusionary zoning bylaw to have more units be bigger different income ranges up to maybe 120 or 150% Ami it's not capitally affordable it's a local enforcement piece but then we get a percentage of units that are non students so right now it's up to 12% of the units what if we said it's up to 20% but that 12 to 20% is 150 Ami or something and we see you know does that actually deter development but otherwise there's really no way to regulate students out of housing I actually think more housing is good housing and so I feel like we're you know we're not going to solve it here and I think we've had conversations about it you know we don't allow off-campus student dormitories except for right in the in the RF District the fraternity residence district and so what this is is market rate housing that may or may not be rented to students uh it's the case for probably any rental or any you know opportun Housing Opportunity in town I think it's really difficult to regulate end users uh with zoning especially with site plan review so the zoning board will say you know 12 month leases nothing less no subletting you know maybe all all lesies um have to be you know on the lease at the same time right or something right there's certain conditions you could have but that doesn't that they still can all be students I think that it's really difficult to say you know these units cannot be students it could be their parents might rent them then and then you know I mean I don't know I feel like there's just it's seems like we're trying to really you know get at something that's really difficult to regulate right now and so I think we have to start looking at other things when we talk about how do we provide housing for students while we have opportunities elsewhere and I think we could address that differently than just trying to talk about this development okay thank you Nate Fred you're next and then Janet yeah I I have to agree uh I I I think it's a Fool's errand to try and say that uh somehow we're going to um limit this uh and address students in this way uh for for one thing uh this property uh necessarily by its location essentially has no parking uh you're not going to put uh families in an appreciable number of these uh uh units uh without parking and uh so the they're going to be students uh the question really is how are they going to be managed and they can be managed in a way that uh is uh that that will I think address the the problems but um I I don't know how we're going to avoid that okay thank you Janet so I think I think we this conversation has sort of ranged past what I'm what I'm trying to do is I think that when we I was thinking we need a trigger for when a building becomes effectively a dorm and there's not a functioning experienced adult in the building to take care of the students who might need help and so you know it could be 95% it could be 90% but that you know so you know I'm not saying not I'm not anti- student I'm actually really Pro student I want healthy safe students and so if your building becomes effectively a dorm we have been requiring 247 mate supervision and so you know this this could be encouraging landlords to have a more diverse group of people I don't know whatever but basically if you're building I I forgotten how I counted all the beds but I couldn't find my notes so there's like 60 people in the building they almost all students come back to the planning board and we can say how are you going to keep these people safe after 11: on a Friday or Saturday night like is there somebody there if something goes south and so it could be just maybe somebody there for the weekend on weekends Thursday because Thursday is also now weekend Thursday Friday and Saturday night who's up who's around taking you know making sure things go well because this has effectively become a student dorm and so I think this could happen to any building in town and let me just say these student rentals are the most lucrative highest per square foot rentals and I'm just saying it's not a huge burden or it might it may not be necessary you might have great students that don't drink themselves or have bad decisions I don't know I raised two really good kids that made some really crappy decisions and I was glad that there were people around to kind of help them out and so I'm just trying to say if we if buildings are going to turn into dorms that basically we have a mechanism we come back to the planning board we're like okay what's your management plan for the weekend is there somebody there on call or present who is going to help with these people that's it if you don't think that's important for those students or in that building but it's not about creating family housing it's not about inclusion and Zoning it's just saying if to if there's mostly students in the building they need more than the average bear and they're also by the way paying a lot more than the average family so let's put some Protections in but if you don't buy it you don't buy it I just think it's important okay thank you um Chris I'm gonna let you jump jump in front of Bruce I just wanted to suggest that someone come up with wording for this condition and then that you take a vote on whether you want such a condition or not so maybe Janet could come up with wording for the condition that she's recommending and then you take a vote on on that condition and then you can move on with the conversation okay thank you that's exactly what I was going to say absent a clearly worded condition I think we should move on and start Rie I'm ready to move on myself um I don't know um Chris did you think we were going to get through findings and conditions tonight or did you I I had been but I hadn't been expecting the comprehensive per discussion to go on for quite such a long time um so yeah I think it's going to take at least an hour to get through the conditions and findings um yeah I guess I'm I'm I'm not eager to get into that tonight if we can push this back to April 17th Tom what's you what's the position on your your team's end are you guys chomping at the bit chomping at the bit uh for what that's for what that's worth and I've got also for what it's worth and thank you for accommodating me this evening even though my Hatfield hearing they missed the notice so it was continued anyways uh I've got a four o'clock hearing on Wednesday the 17th and a six o'clock iners hearing on Wednesday the 17th and so you know that kicks us over to May at some point and Barry's taking the buildings down April 22nd maybe um so yeah we're we're chugging along and okay we'll leave it to the board but okay well so do people want to spend let's say it's an hour to get through these findings and conditions this evening Bruce you up for that yes reluctant but yes and I hope we can get through this condition thing hardly all right all right um thank you sure I I uh I do need to give the public a chance to talk so I think I will at this time ask for any public comment people want to make on this project I see one hand so far and as this first person makes their comment if anybody else wants to comment please raise your hand during that period so Pam let's bring uh H startup over Hy uh welcome if you would give us your repeat your name and give us your address hello everybody um my name is heti startup I live on Allen Street um in emst um and tonight I I just want to particularly thanks Mr Roberts for uh the tour of the site um as a member of the MS hisorical commission both 55 and 45 it was really helpful I was hoping in my question as it were to see if Tom Rey could go back in the drawings to the plan of the apartments in the part of the scheme which is in the back of the site where um yes thank you and I'll tell you when to stop um so if we could look at like what would be the apartments at the back where 45 is going to be demolished yes that's right yep yep can you scroll down to thank you perfect thank you Tom um so this may be um flogging a dead horse uh but I've been listening to the meeting tonight since the pretty much the beginning and I was very intrigued at one point when you were talking about 70 belter Town Road to hear a fourth story mentioned and I'm just wondering and as I said this may be flogging my dead horse about the history of this building which is dear to me now that I know more about it and also because I think the building is in a really pretty good condition and I'm just curious to know from Barry and um from Jonathan on the sort of design team about um do you really need to pull this building down in order to get your um Apartments there in the back of the site if you built four stories could you raise everything up so that you could keep that existing staircase that creates the sort of stare between the second and third floor and you could keep the performance space that is historic to both amamos college and amamos as a town and create Some Kind of Wonderful um group um sort of play space in in the building um that maybe it would be for entertainment or NP no maybe that's not a good idea to suggest with all the licensing related to that um I take that back maybe it could be something that is um a shared space um for um exhibits or for um other kinds of uses um that could be used by the people in the in the apartment building and I'll stop there I'm sorry I didn't mean to keep talking so long all right thank you uh Tom or Jonathan anybody any probably Jonathan and I know we had discussed it last time but Jonathan if you want to talk about and I'll probably go back to this one s so the I don't think we would really be able to go up more we're we're already at five stories um the the the fundamental problem is is the is the size and shape of the floor plate and existing building and it's its proximity to the property line um that you know there are currently windows in that facade but there're you know I I don't like using this term because it doesn't really exist um in in true legal terms but they're they're there because they've been there a long time would say they're grandfathered but um they wouldn't actually be permissible um and so it makes it very hard to adapt that space to to uh to a residential use um I think that that that's sort of the the and let me let me add on a little bit just to say that Barry has I mean look at am Cinema uh look at Marsh house look at him moving different houses uh in town um Center school over in Hatfield and I'm sure he can name five more if a he's the type if you can say and you can reuse it uh despite other people maybe suggesting that he doesn't he's going to save it and reuse it and so this is just one of those unfortunately um and there's and we look to balance right just like with that entry Plaza it it's all a balance it's balancing Landscaping it's balancing seating same thing here there are certain economic realities about what you need for sizes of units and the number of units you need in order to make something actually able to be built and that's what you know through all of that you put it in the blender and what comes out is unfortunately this space has to come down but I can tell you the first thing that Barry did with John cun was what can we do with this how can we reuse this is it reusable uh and then it just kept coming back at at no um and that's where we are at this point okay thanks Tom all right uh one more public comment I see from Brian hobin if we' bring him over yeah welcome Brian please give us your name and your street address hi everyone uh can you hear me yes all right my name is three minutes all right I'm actually a student at UMass Amherst uh in the regional planning program um so it's really cool to hear about uh the different opinions expressed about student housing in Amherst um and I'm really uh thankful for all the consideration that's been giving um concerning student housing I actually just want to briefly introduce myself uh and just let you know that for the past couple months or so I've actually been uh designing an additional um design and development proposal for the site uh in Amherst um however I am aware that a lot of investment has already gone into the current design so I'm definitely not trying to stir up any controversy or have you kind of reconsider um the current proposal but hopefully in next coming weeks or so um I'd like to possibly introduce my design and maybe spur conversation about future development uh in downtown Amherst um and hopefully contribute to um you know maybe mediating Solutions between different parties uh and creating meaningful development that not only just caters to students but also to the residents of amst thanks okay thank you Brian don't see any more hands from the public Chris your hand is up yeah I was rethinking um the decision uh to keep going tonight I think this is going to take a long time you have to still talk about the um payment of fee and L you have to go through all of the findings for the S plan review and for the special permit you could consider um holding an interim planning board meeting say next Wednesday and focus only on conditions and findings for this project and then um vote on it but trying to get through it tonight I think is going to be challenging and I'm sure that people are going to have you know their particular thing that they are interested in and so it's not just a question of reading the conditions because I imagine is going to be a lot of discussion about things so I'm suggesting that you take a poll to see who's available next Wednesday or who's available next Tuesday or some night that you can all get together to um to finish up this project thank you all right good idea Chris uh so members uh please raise your digital hand if you are available next Wednesday for a pretty focused but uh meeting one two three and Bruce has got his physical hand Janice's got her physical thumb that's five one two three four five and I'm six uh Yanna sound looks like no you're not available but looks like six of us would be so maybe uh that's certainly a quorum and uh Johanna any huge objection to us plowing through this without you no I'll try to make it but I'm in Washington DC for work and it's a Chu full day so if I can join remotely I will um but you shouldn't wait on me okay all right all right so it look Chris it looks like six of us could be present for that conversation so maybe we should do that um so um do we want to have further conversation tonight or should we just go ahead with a motion to continue to what would it be April 10th at 6:30 or 7 Chris yes continue to April 10th at 6:30 yeah could we make it 7 7 7's fine with me and um Tom I what's your availability I know you you you know you hate to have a free evening I know yeah uh I've got a six o'clock but I'll make seven o'clock work because everybody's working with us so seven o'clock works thank you very much okay all right um let's see okay F okay if you if you raised your electronic hand for that little poll please put it down and so that leaves Janet and Nate who want to make comments okay Nate go ahead sure I was GNA say we're all here and you know it'd be I'd like to see if we could discuss a little bit more you know the payment and L could be a big topic and I don't know if if there's a a way to get a straw pull now because you that could be another half hour 45 minute conversation we're here you know it' be great start that you know it seems like we're you know we've discuss the design the plaza you if there's issues with parking I mean in the development application report and in the emails from Tom you know we've gone over the different drainage and other things so if there's a few outstanding issues I know I'd rather here it be discussed now if there's something because it's not you know it could be that we get in on next week and we spend another two hours talking about things other than the conditions and finding and so you know if there's anything else that seems to be an issue I'd like to have it be discussed tonight or at least you know um previewed okay all right um okay Bruce and Janet Bruce first uh I'm uh I was comfortable with the payment in L I thought about it fairly uh variously and with the uh announcement of the Housing Trust uh um I uh I thought about it and I don't have a problem with it okay Janet I was completely leaning towards requiring the three affordable units and then I had a long long talk with the um chair of the Housing Trust and she completely persuaded me that the payment inl would be a really exciting opportunity for the Housing Trust and probably would result in many more units and so I'm I I don't I'm completely on board with that I do wonder if um all the issues that were raised by Jason skills and Chris's memos about you know storm water and stuff if that's all been addressed to their satisfaction so that's that's one thing it was you know I just wanted to make sure that didn't get brushed through or we would miss it yeah that's something I could review for next time okay I will say I was completely comfortable with the payment in Li uh particularly with the housing trusts endorsement Jesse yes just to agree I've been catching up on those details also and I have no issue with that all okay okay um Yana since you won't be with us next time How were you feeling about that the affordable housing trust is okay with it I am okay with it okay thank you Fred uh yeah I strongly support it uh all always have I think that uh this particular location is a perfect application for this as I said because of the parking situation and so forth uh the target uh population here will not be a population that would benefit from the uh affordable housing situation and much better to use this to uh work with the with the trust and uh really accomplish something so I strongly support it okay thank you um so Janet uh I'm thinking if you have a if you had a condition if you had language for a condition that you've been working on while you been we've been sitting here uh I it'd be great if we could talk about that before or vote on it before Johanna is not with us next week um I do have a slightly um kind of verbose thing that is I always like to write something and tighten it up but here here comes the um many prepositional phrases If the percentage of tenants who are students exceeds 90% the owner shall return to the planning boards the board can determine if any modification to the management plan are required to ensure the safety Health and Welfare of the student tenants and so and that that phrase ties into the 11.24 the whole purpose of the site plan review is for the health safety and convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town and so I just do think it's a safety issue for students and bad things happen okay all right so Bruce I see your hand your physical hand my digital hand yes too I was distinguishing between digital and electronic but I I wasn't up to speed with your Lexicon um I I think I know where your uh your um motion ended and when your comment started uh Janet so I think it's important that we that it be seconded which I do so that we can okay discuss and vote on it all right um so we have a motion I I'd say we have a motion to adopt that as a condition and a second from Bruce and board members are you do you want to have some more conversation about it or should we just go through a roll call vote BR Jesse yes sorry Jenna can you read the beginning one more time I had a little glitch I didn't hear yeah just give us the give us the condition um if the percentage of tenants who are students exceeds 90% the owner shall return to the planning board so the board can determine if any modifications to the management plan are required to ensure the safety Health and Welfare of student of the student tenants so all right got oh some go ahead Jesse I'll try and say what I meant to say earlier a little bit more clearly I agree with the intent Janet it's it's the part of if it goes above 90% just to play Devil's Advocate having nothing to do with the current owner landlord management anything we're then depending on that information from the owner to to decide for the town to be told we're now above 90% and that to me just doesn't seem like a realistic way to proceed um likewise if it's 80% and there's all kinds of problems there are other mechanisms in the town that might address it but there's it doesn't help solve that problem either so I I I just again I'm I'm struggling logistically to see how this really would accomplish much in almost any scenario other than the owner saying oh my gosh I really need help Town help me out and do something anyway if it was 60% or 50% right we don't have any mechanism to guarantee or to if it if there's a if if students are having problems there's no there's nothing in our bylaws that say this is a problem building because people are drinking too much and passing out yeah yeah yeah but that's what the m and so that's the whole thing is so this would say if there are x amount of students in your building we want to make sure there's supervision that that and we have that in our private student dorms okay okay so we so we have the we have the condition um I'd like to get to a vote soon um Bruce your hand is up yes I I don't need further discussion uh we've had a lot of it uh but what I would like to do is to ask Tom whether he has any comment on the motion that would uh either demonstrate uh from a technical uh point of view from his point of view that would uh that would would whether whether whether Tomy you have any any wording or any suggestion that would strengthen it or make it more manageable or any comment at all that we should hear and then I'm ready to go okay sure thanks uh thanks for that Bruce I mean I I think some of the issue frequency or or timeline right so I didn't hear anything in there of when that's required um is it an annual thing is it once it happens and then what if it drops back below um is it something that the board just looks to condition period right if if this happens then you you don't even come back before us but you start doing this um and then it's up to the land owner if they just want to do that from the beginning right and and I don't know maybe Barry wants to have some resident manager on the site right that's the fear with something like this is what it actually means and and when you have somewhat uh amorphous conditions it's up to interpretation and then it slips through the cracks and it doesn't do what anybody thought it could do and I think that's the r with it again I understand the intent I I hear what Janet's saying I don't know that this is the the right application for it um or the right language to try to enforce something like that I think that would be the concern okay thanks Tom Janet so I actually think that's a great point and I think I have a better idea and I would like to withdraw the motion and just submit this new condition and we can mullet and talk about it very quickly next week because I think maybe we should just require on-site management when you hit that threshold and then the mechanisms we don't have to come back so let me think on that I think that's a great point though and I think what Jesse is saying also makes sense is so when you become a student private student dorm basically an amorist we're going to make sure that there are people there to take care of the students and so let let me think on that and I'll come back on Wednesday and we can go up and down without conversation or or as much discussion as you want but I think that's a good point because what I'm really looking for is on-site supervision really at the end of the day okay all right um I don't see any other hands and I think Janet's is a legacy so Bruce uh move continuation uh to uh um April 10th at 7 April 10th at 7 pm. okay I'll second that could I get in on the discussion for one quick second sure Tom to to to Nate's point is the I know we mentioned the Jason skills letter I'm very comfortable with where we are with that uh we've talked about payment and lose so I understand where we are with that I'm assuming the last 9.22 going from 100% coverage to 97% coverage is probably going to be okay uh I don't know if the Board needs to or wants to talk about that but besides that is there anything else that we should be thinking about so that when we do come next Wednesday it's all set um or are we just dealing with findings and conditions then um I think we're just dealing with findings and conditions okay thank you um I I can speak for myself I'm not worried about your nonconformity going from 100% to 97% or whatever it is thank you okay we have a motion to continue to next week at 7:00 um we'll go through a roll call do we need a second uh I seconded that's stug second thanks all right um Bruce I approve and Fred I approve all right Jesse bye all right Janet hi uh Johanna you you don't have to hi hi okay and Karen I I'm and I as well seven in favor no extensions no negatives on continuing to next week at 7 o'clock pm thank you very much Tom and team thank you for your patience before we even got to you and thanks for your contributions to this discussion thank see some we'll see some of you at least next week great okay time now is 9:49 and we'll move on to Old business any topics not reasonably anticipated none none from Chris okay how about new business not reasonably in anticipated none none form a anr subdivision applications none upcoming zba applications P may have some I'm not aware of anything new because I didn't get any transcript so if anybody else did speak now upcoming SBP and SUV applications we have a little Farm Stand Up on East Pleasant Street I think I told you about that last time yes yeah all right the carriage house at the the Emily Dickinson Museum yeah I think we told them about that last time too okay so those are both still in process yep all right uh planning board committee and liaison reports uh Bruce you want to start with pvpc nothing to report okay I have nothing oh there is a there is a meeting uh next Thursday which I unfortunately won't be able to attend I'll email Jack and tell him that I'll not be able to attend okay um I have nothing for CPAC Karen for design review no not this time all right and Chris anything from CRC yes CRC started talking about the um solar bylaw yep and they will um be continuing that conversation so okay uh report of chair I don't have anything report of Staff Chris I don't uh I don't have anything at this time all right in that case time is 952 and unless anybody has anything else to mention we are adjourned uh we will see all of you accepting Johanna next week at 7 o'clock thanks for your thanks for your time and [Music] attention good night Chris Chris get home safely I'll try bye bye