##VIDEO ID:XW-ZV1H52lI## okay now we're recording please go ahead hi everyone welcome to the uh Thursday October 24th um Charter review committee meeting which is being held on Zoom um we are going to start the meeting so I'll go through folks and say if you can hear me and be heard um I'll start with Meg as I see it on my zoom screen I hear you and I think I can be heard excellent Bernie yes yes here great Erica here excellent Andy uh here excellent um Dan I'm here I'm here great uh Ken I'm here and I'm on a very loud bus at the moment it won't be the case for the whole meeting but I hope you can hear me sounds good we can hear you loud and clear um and I don't hear much background noise in there so that's good uh Marcus yeah I'm here excellent um and did I miss anybody I don't think so uh okay perfect um rafhael is not here currently um so we will start the meeting without him but if he joins I'll make sure that he can hear us and be heard um so so now let's start the meeting with uh approval of minutes Meg you wrote the minutes um and I believe you had a question about the minutes if you want to go ahead well um I I did I had some problems uh partially because I didn't plan uh remember when I signed up that I had was be out of town nine days between the last meeting and this one but also I didn't possibly because Athena wasn't there I didn't get the guidance so the ad minutes that I did had some problems for example so everyone who does the minutes I suggest that you really note when a meeting is held remotely there are additional requirements of the minutes so for example it's not adequate to say the vote was unanimous even though above you've listed everyone who's there you have to list at that point and you have to list who who who the motion was made by and who seconded it so a couple of times there was no second but I encourage in the future the chair to say the motion was made by so and so and it was seconded by so and so because some times it was hard to hear and the other little problem was that the minutes were mended but it was a scrier change that wasn't described so I couldn't put that in what it technically was and I can't remember quite how I handled it uh but also I listed the people who were in attendance which we just heard you're not supposed to do so I think I have to redo that part or you could amend them to take that out but we only got them this afternoon because of communic unication problems with my further Complicated by my computer problems or and my uh the document not being openable uh that so but you can read they just came a couple of hours ago um so I don't see how you can I I need to do make those adjustments that I just heard about a few minutes ago that before the meeting started that we shouldn't name the people who were in attendance which I did anyway I apologize I really tried no problem anyway um so it's up to the committee if they'd like to um approve the minutes or make amendments or just save them for the next meeting um I had the the time last time to to take a look at them before I added them to the committee packet and was able to make edits and share those with um Andy took minutes beforehand so if you'd like me to do that then we can just bump them to the next agenda or can approve them make amendments and approve them whatever you want to do but um I apologize that I wasn't able to review them before I added them to the packet this time and um and I'll share the guidance and the template that I shared with you and Andy with the rest of the committee members so everyone is able to use that as a jumping off point and then um if anybody doesn't have word um I can make the template uh available online so that you can edit a document in Word online um yeah it's definitely the problem with not having word I've got a I have a brand new computer and it doesn't have word yet so that was further further complicated everything yeah I don't want that to be a barrier so I can work with uh with all of you to make sure that you can do that and for some reason when you add a PDF it can't be amended so that was I sent a PDF but then it was set anyway on off of that have edits have the edits been made if so I feel like we should just approve them I haven't taken out no Athena just said she hasn't read the latest version and it included the uh names of the three attendees I'm happy to just say we amended that way but I don't think people have had a chance to read it because it just you just got it yeah I haven't had a chance to read it yet so let's let's postpone it um I my perspective I'll make a motion in a minute Bernie no I was just gonna suggest that we we put it off till next week but not to let this not to I have a bad habit of letting the minutes get too far ahead of of are too far behind in any committee I've been yeah yeah so I um I'd like to you know um reform that habit I agree I I agree strongly that's why I I tried several back yeah I I think it's really important to approve them but there's no point in the the the primary reason to have them is in order to be sure that you have an accurate record and you know the the saying about if you want to have power in a group you you create the agenda and write the minutes and so it's important to look at them and make sure they reflect everyone's opinion and not just the person who took them okay excellent um so I move to uh postpone the minutes we can do that informally you can just excellent great um so we'll postpone the minutes till next meeting uh AA you're taking minutes for this meeting is that correct yes I'll cover you for this meeting thank you very much um perfect so let's put the agenda back up um my back and uh just a reminder um now that we're officially sort of beginning uh for comments and stuff raise your hand um preferably on Zoom simply because the way the zoom screen it won't let me see everybody at the same time um so that's that and next is public comment um there are currently three partic or for attendees um would anybody like to make a public comment and you'll have three minutes and we'll bring you into Zoom it will tell you to unmute yourself um and join us and you'll be allowed to give a public comment so please raise your hand um on Zoom if you would like to give a public comment at this time you seen anyone Athena No Hands no hands in the audience excellent so we will close the public comment period with no public comments um and I'll actually pass it to you next Athena for a quick open meeting law review oh okay I'm gonna I'm gonna um take the screen down so I can see everybody a little bit better I'll make this just a very brief overview and then if there are questions I think um things get a lot trickier in figuring out these things in practice than what is shared in the open meeting log guide so one thing that I wanted to say right up front is um we work with this all the time there are questions that come up about this all the time even among members who've been serving on boards and committees for many many years so um what I hope you take away from this brief discussion is that um the doors always open for you to ask questions you can ask me questions about the open meeting law you can ask the town clerk questions about the open meeting law um she often kicks those over to me because I have I've been working with boards and committees uh a little bit more and um the Attorney General's office also gives advice um and so I don't expect anyone to come away from this conversation being an expert and knowing what to do in every situation um I encourage the chair and members to feel empowered to ask for a brief recess um to seek clarification on a matter or ask questions during a meeting um because things come up that aren't explicitly stated in the open meeting log guide or in the rules and uh so we should give each other a little bit of Grace in figuring those things out as we go um so the the purpose of the open meeting law is to ensure transparency in the the Democratic process because it depends on the public having knowledge about the considerations underlying governmental action so uh and it and it tries to balance the public interest in that way with the need for us to be able to manage our meetings effectively um so I know I hear from folks quite a bit that it feels feel like a constraint and it's not intended to to get in the way of things moving along um but to make those things as transparent and open to the public as we can um so uh briefly meetings um are the definition of a meeting is any deliberation on a matter within the purview of the committee among a quum of the members so if you decide to email five four other members um now you have a quorum and if you share your thoughts feelings and opinions about a matter within the committee then you have deliberated on a matter you've actually had a meeting that was not properly posted so that's a violation so the definition of a meeting is Communications among a quorum about matters within the purview of the body um so like I said that includes emails phone calls um any deliberation needs to take place at a posted meeting um and the open meeting law also defines celebration in in a Serial manner so if you have a conversation with one member and then you share that conversation with another member and then one of you shares that conversation with another member if you reach five then you've had a deliberation you've basically held a meeting outside of a public forum which is not allowed um our Charter right now includes a provision that requires a period of public comment at every regular meeting um so that's uh something that our local law goes over and above the open meeting law the open meeting law doesn't really address public comment IT addresses public uh participation and access to meetings but not public comment so that provision of the charter is is over and above um the public also has a right to know what to expect the committee will discuss at an open meeting so that's why the agenda needs to be specific enough that members of the public have an idea of what you'll discuss um and so that they can gauge their interest and participation at a meeting um and that's why we had a conversation earlier about um adding items to the agenda if they're not anticipated 48 hours in advance of the meeting um the best way to do that is to ask that the chair add an item to the next meeting agenda unless it's an emergency so unless we have to take something up at this meeting the best thing to do if there's something you want to talk about is is ask the chair to put it on the next meeting agenda uh I'll pause here for a moment Dan you have a question yeah so I I guess I ask you to repeat so a deliber a meeting is anything where there's deliberation about the matter at hand that the the business of the committee among a quorum right in a quorum and so what is the category of talking about the goings on at the committee I run into a Committee Member and I say what do you think of how things are going that's not the subject of the committee but it's the workings of the committee right that's somebody's thoughts feelings and opinions about what the committee is doing so that would be deliberation but you haven't reached a quorum yet so say you bump to Erica big why and you talk about how the committee is going and I really think the committee should be focusing on this or that and then one of you talks to another person and shares that and maybe the other one of you talks to another person and shares that and so so uh we can it becomes a slippery slope yeah I mean I think specifically like I put the the issue our relationship with the Town Council that's on the agenda and it isn't so this is about uh and you could say Administration like what do you think of how Athena is is running the meetings that's not what I'm but just as an example so it's not the subject of that committee's work you you see the distinction I'm making um you're you're referring to the purview the of the committee is that is that what you're looking to clarify yeah I mean of so so there's okay we're here to look at the charter that's our the B I mean if we got together in a quorum and talked about the Red Sox there's no there's no talk about the weather all day so so is is discussing the the mechanisms of the of the committee in other words I'm I'm like you said frustration about open meeting law is talking about that that isn't actually the the business of the the that's not the subject the committee is there to to deal with but it is about the workings of the committee that seems like those are different things is that question making sense Dan I'm so appreciative of your attention to the Nuance of these things I know that you're you're trying to get things right and I appreciate that so deeply um because it is complicated and sometimes you know a conversation might begin in a way that you have no intention of talking about committee business and then you start to get into committee business and and uh so you know it's up to each Committee Member to uphold the open meeting law if there were a complaint against the committee that there was a breach of the open meeting law then it would be up to members to uh confirm that they did not break the law so it's on each of you to be able to say we didn't break the law or we did and we need to do something to um resolve that breach um and so my advice is always going to be if you think it might be within the purview of the committee don't talk about it with a quum of members outside of committee um if it if it isn't something that's vital if you want to complain about the open meeting law to a fellow Committee Member then I would say that's that's just fine you can go ahead and do that um but if you start to talk about you know I I really wish we had talked about this at a meeting and Athena said that we couldn't add it to the agenda because it was after 48 hours and you know you see how things can get so and we all like to talk and that's perfectly natural um so just you know keep that in mind and you want to be able to say if there were a complaint that you didn't break the law and you want to be able to say that truthfully and you also want to keep in mind that um the public has a right to know you know your thoughts feelings and opinions about what you're doing um like I shared with Dan and Erica previously um what you are undertaking is a is a historic effort um this being the first Charter review the town has ever conducted and your thoughts appealing your thoughts opinions and feelings about what you're doing is really an important part of the historic record of this process because it puts everything that you're doing into the context of the time and so folks in the future long after we're all gone might go back and wonder how you reached the conclusion that you did about some decision that you made um and we want to be able to show have a record of how those decisions were made and the deliberations that were involved in those decisions so in that way we really want to keep things on the record for the historical nature of what you're doing Meg um at the last meeting we talked about when you were here about subcommittees that are officially appointed by the committee compared with working groups both of which would be a not a a u Quorum so if those met and didn't share any information until it was reported to the whole group would those be that those would not violate the open meeting law um the open meeting law doesn't make a distinction between a subcommittee or something else that you call a subcommittee that's not sub subcommittee so you can call it a working group you can call it a subcon you can call it whatever you want but if the if the charter Review Committee has designated members to do some work on the committee's behalf then you have essentially created a subcommittee regardless of what you call it so you can call it regardless but regardless of whether it's a Forum if the committee has designated more than one member to do work on its behalf then it is a subcommittee so it doesn't have to be a quorum to be a subcommittee usually subcommittees are less than a quorum so if you designate two members or three members or six members to do some work on behalf of the committee then you have essentially created a subcommittee to do work on the committee's behalf and that subcommittee would be subject to the open meeting law they would need to post their meetings they would need to take minutes they would have to conduct their business in a in an open way and Julian has added that to um an item later in the agenda so we can talk more specifically about that later um but the name doesn't matter in our last meeting we talked about informal ways of gathering information from the public like two people meeting with two other people in a over coffee to have a conversation if they haven't been as uh we're trying to create more informal ways of having conversations with people to get a variety of different kinds of input and from unlikely people who don't necessarily want to go and speak you know in a big public meeting yeah that would be it it depends um it depends whether the the charter Review Committee has authorized specific members to do work on its behalf if the committee is saying um that we want Julian and Andy and Dan to go and meet with residents at the coffee shop in north ammer and gather feedback there on its behalf and then report back to the committee on what information you've gathered that's a subcommittee and you need to post that meeting and you need to take minutes oh hi Andy go ahead Andy just I I um we're going to have to be going and conducting research basically so interviewing people every time we interview people it's a public meeting if the committee has authorized more than one person to speak with members of the public on its behalf uh then we need to we need to follow the open meeting law so if one member goes out and talks to people and go well I you know talk to my neighbors and I talk to Folks at Black Sheep and so on um that's perfectly fine if one person is doing it the committee can designate one person to do it um but when the committee designates more than one person to go out and do work on its behalf um then we treat that as a subcommittee that feels extraordinarily cumbersome I mean if we wanted to have two people so one person could take notes and one person could interview um you know yeah it just seems like it's really limiting every every time we interview a council member and have two people or if we go to you know have to the boulders and have a two people talking it's a public meeting and we have to post it in few minutes that seems crazy it it so we can get into ways that we can achieve doing what the committee wants to do and Gathering public input in different contexts in a way that uh is respectful of the open meeting law and so in some of those instances you're just there to collect information you're not having a deliberation so you could call it an you know an information session or something but as long as the committee members aren't out there talking about their own thoughts and opinions and feelings it's it's a matter of how we present that information how we distribute that information what kind of notes we collect and so forth so I I get that it can feel constraining um there are usually ways of achieving what you're trying to do with respect to the open meaning law um and to do that in the most transparent way possible and we'll we'll figure it out it'll be good to have some guidance on what those ways are and I'm not going to answer every question right in this moment um because as we figure out what kind of um public input you want where you want to gather that and how if you want to invite people to the meetings if you want to go out and and do um surveys or whatever then we're gonna we'll figure it out as we go I'm not going to be able to answer every question okay right now but I'll answer Bernie and Andy's questions well the deliberation pieces is is key you've got a couple of committee members who are holding a coffee hour at the black sheep to hear from people um that's fine you can do that um but you can't talk between yourselves and say well what if we went back to the committee with this or you know this really relates to that or it it it makes it a little bit difficult because you you have to remember that um you're communicating and mostly listening which is difficult for some of us including me um with um with the person person and not with each other so that's that's a that's a fine line and you know if you have you know you put up an announcement somewhere that we're going to have a coffee hour at such and such a place and U to uh hear from the public about the council's behavior or the council's this rule of the council that's okay you're you're not you know you're not being sneaky you're not breaking me up and meaning well my humble opinion uh having lived with this for too long um the other thing that that maybe unnecessarily complicate matters is is you're you you can you have ministerial duties that you can discuss so if you go to two other members and say Hey you know I really don't like to meet on Thursday at six o'clock could you think we get push it back to seven that's ministerial and that's okay uh even though the committee will eventually get together to debate whether or not to change the hours and place and time of meeting that stuff yeah housekeeping we can do outside housekeeping is but you really have to be aware of when you're into something having a discussion about something that's substantive and before the committee and you can make it work I'd love to see the legislature have to do this but me too Andy um yeah I I was just going to come back and say that that distinction between information gathering and deliberation clarified it for me um so if that because I think we'll be doing both of those things but if we can keep them separate and make clear when we're doing information gathering then that frees us to do the work that we need to do so and we just want to be really clear about what the committee is doing and how and that if there is a coffee hour or something that we don't get a whole bunch of you together to and you start talking about stuff or you're having a conversation with somebody Black Sheep and it turns into a whole debate among a quorum so um as long as I think we're you know as transparent as possible about what you're doing and what the purpose of those meetings or uh information sharing and and perspective Gathering you're doing then I think we're in the clear Dan yeah I I I mean I think really what I'm you said but I'm was hoping to hear which is the there if there's a way of making it work we'll make it work it isn't that I mean there's been ways in which it feels like this an obstacle and it's um it's frustrating but it does seem it's like okay so that's a that's a subcommittee but if it's one person who's been who's doing this task and someone else is going to help them then it's not so you know and and it isn't bending the law to do this it's just to say hey let's respect the law and and keep moving forward and if and if there's a way of looking at it that doesn't create an obstacle it's my hope we would look at it that way and not be impeded okay I'm going to touch on a couple other things and then take questions and hopefully um if there are other questions after that that come up because like I said earlier those things arise as we move through this process that's that's to be expected and um and I'm happy to help whenever those questions come up um so uh we talked about adding items to the agenda we can do that at a meeting um there's I think rarely going to be an instance where this committee is going to have something urgent that it needs to talk about that has come up within 48 Hours of the meeting notice so um for the most part we put everything that the committee plans to discuss on the agenda and then you only discuss those things um the minutes like Meg mentioned uh there are specific things the minutes need to include who is present what actions were taken uh the dis a summary of this the discussion sufficient enough that a person who did not attend the meeting UND understands what happened um and then like Meg mentioned there are some other requirements when we have virtual meetings including um that the chairs confirmed that folks can hear and be heard that all votes are taken by roll call um that the chairs announced that the meeting's being recorded um and uh if there were connectivity issues when someone joined or left um and that that remote meeting provision is um there 's currently an exemption in place that allows public bodies to meet with a quorum uh being fully remote um that expires next year um unless the legislature takes action again so this exemption came up during the pandemic and they the legislator has extended it a couple times um if that ex exemption expires uh then we'll have to move back to inperson meetings we'll have to have at least a quorum of members in person hopefully we don't have to deal with that because um in my opinion the virtual meetings have increased participation it have made it a lot easier for people with busy lives to um participate in these kinds of meetings and uh we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it Meg um in our last meeting uh so I didn't see in the guidance about the minutes not mentioning specific names at the last meeting Eric had asked a good question which was why people wer identified for what they said and I hadn't seen that so I identified Everybody by what they said in the minutes I did you can tell me later but maybe everyone should know whether that description of what the discussion was about and what was said should or should not identify who said what it shouldn't identify I need to do a lot of more editing than I thought yeah so it it's not that it should or shouldn't identify it the minutes are not a transcript of the meeting so you don't need to capture every single comment that was made um from the advice that I give when I'm training the minute takers for the council and Council committees is that if there's a a general discussion sometimes bullet points are really helpful because you can just you know take down the the notes in the notes you know who you know the points that were made and maybe there wasn't a decision reached it was just a discussion and so discussion points are sufficient if on the other hand the committee is um there are cling views then it's helpful to have the context of what the two or multiple sides of the view are before a vote was taken to kind of put the vote in context if there's a split vote on something and no explanation why members voted one way or another that that's a little bit confusing and somebody who didn't attend the meeting might not understand what happened so you don't have to say who made each and every comment um but you want to make the the the details sufficient enough for someone who didn't attend to understand what happened and how the decisions were made so at the meeting the tension not tension very much because we see was between whether we know what's the never mind let's keep going sorry that's okay Andy it's the same I I had the same question because you know I looked oh you muted I looked at the um minutes for the council and and I saw that they didn't identify who said what that it was basically just bullet points of various ideas in the discussion and Erica uh naturally or very rightly asked why we didn't why I didn't identify them that way and so um I think it's easier to do it without identifying people but it's maybe I don't know when it becomes a transcript and when it becomes you know a list of ideas and so I guess it just seems like something we should decide what which way we want to do it maybe I I don't know I mean otherwise it'll it could be different each time it will be a little different each time because they're going to be written by different people and so you know there there's gonna be nine different ways so I don't think you need to make sure that they're they're written with the same voice because it won't be the same voice right I tried to just put them in you know just include all the ideas but I didn't put names in and I I don't know if that's I think that's perfectly sufficient in that context because it was just a discussion there wasn't a contentious Vote or anything um if feels important to you to you know that there were folks that felt one way and folks that felt another way then that's something that um that you'd want to include in the minutes like who felt which way so I thought sorry at the last discussion there wasn't tension exactly but there was a different weight of people who wanted to stick to the strict what the charter charges about and others who wanted to include while it's not in our charge if a significant number of people made a comment till at least report it or take it into cons so it wasn't a big tension but there were differences of opinion about that attention was too strong a word yeah are there any other questions before I hand things back to Julian all right Julian I'll turn it over to you thank you all for for your thoughtful attention I appreciate you all thank you thank you atha I appreciate it that certainly depth and even taught me many things that I did not know um so I appreciate it uh anyway back to the agenda um our next point is uh questions for legal councel and legal review so uh do you want to this was tabled from the last meeting when you weren't here Athena so basically how do people want to compile a list of questions do we want to have KP law come um and uh speak with us directly um have them prepare a memo what what exactly do we want to do do we want to just have it sort of on call as we need it how do we want to approach it Athena go right ahead thank you um so our attorney who who uh this this work Falls within her scope um has said that she can come and present to the committee um an overview um if you feel that that would be helpful we can schedule that for a future meeting um if you feel that collecting more specific questions from members and then asking for written responses or for her to come to a meeting and address those questions and and then there could be an opportunity for follow-up questions then that would be fine an ongoing back and forth of written opinions is costly and so I'll discourage the committee from doing that just due to the cost of um repeated written opinions um it's it's uh easier for us to have her come and speak with the committee and then if there are groups of questions that we can collect once the committee gets into its work and has specific legal questions um then we can do that a few times if needed but an ongoing back and forth with legal questions um I would not advise excellent thank you Bernie yeah I'm going to suggest that we kind of follow the the the process that we did when we did the the the review of the town's bylaws um in that committee he was cheered by Bob Richie I told Bob that I invoked his name at one of these meetings as an authority and when he stopped laughing he told me I did that at my own risk so um but what we did in was that we compiled a list of questions uh as things came up um one of us would say you know I really think we need to have KP law look at this that would get listed down and then what we would do is when we built the list up a bit or got to a point where we couldn't move forward with answers uh we would submit that to the attorney and have her review them and respond back to us in writing um one of the ways one of the the reasons you're doing that is that you know sometimes you end up answering your own question as you go along uh the other thing is um lawyers are expensive and you know you can't get on the phone with your lawyer and say hey how about you know what do you think of the Dodgers versus the Yankees you know how come the Red Sox didn't make it this year because the clock's running uh so if you compile the you compile the uh the the uh questions as best you can submit them to council in writing and have Council respond back in writing you you give a more economical um process the other thing we did is and I would suggest that this happened with this committee's final report is the draft of this committee's final report gets reviewed by Council um so she can then flag anything that we may have U Miss made any missteps we may have made or or or or any kind of comments so it's it's iterative you you you build a list you get to the list where you really feel like you need to move on you submit that to council get a response build another list get a response and then Council looks at the final final report if folks would like to have um one of our you know member of KP KP law is a pretty good-sized firm um you like have a KP law member here to walk people through the you know what council does that that would be helpful probably um uh you know so folks should be open to that recommendation okay excellent thank you um Erica thank you um I am all for the idea of compiling questions for uh legal counsel before we actually have someone present with us but it raises a like a hypothetical question for me about work process and the the conversation we were just having about open meeting and just may just as a hypothetical could ask my question and see if see if I'm off base um if we wanted to com do the work to compile a good list of questions that we all have perhaps in our minds uh for a legal counsil um given the the potential for the conflict with open meeting if we if we were to meet outside of this time um and we wanted just kind of keep a running list of questions so somewhere that we then kind of bring to meeting discuss agree on and then present to council that running list given that we work a lot of our work is virtual keeping a running list somewhere maybe in the document Center or something that we can each contribute and add to outside of meeting time is that in any way a violation of any like creating a work product outside of meeting time it this because it's not exactly public we're we're contributing let's say questions or thoughts or opinions outside of the prescribed meeting timea thank you thank you for the question um so uh you can definitely compile a list of questions outside a meeting you can say uh Bernie is going to compile the list of questions everybody send your questions to Bernie he's going to maybe put like questions together and uh combine questions that are kind of in the same vein and a way that makes sense and then we'll see them at the next meeting that's perfectly acceptable does that answer your question yes that's very helpful that's I was trying to imagine how we could um how we could do that work without making it that process itself one agenda item for an almost entire meeting absolutely yeah so we could do that outside of meeting we can say when members is going to compile the questions and we'll see it at the next meeting if that seems like the sufficient list then we'll we'll send that off so um be before um so it sounds like the members are not interested in a presentation about the scope of the committee and the different methods of making changes to the Charter is that correct or is that something that the committee would like in terms of framing uh I'll go to Dan then Andy and then Eric again yeah I I mean two things one is I my recollection is where we came to is this basic idea of um that we're not going to be constrained by the type of action that would require that seemed to be the legal question we faced and I felt like this was my understanding we had kind of um we had resolved that Charter Commission special act Council vote what we're about is getting the feedback and then if it's necessary to to correctly characterize things um that would be the point at least about that that that we could that we'd get counil the other point I mean related to this idea of gathering um questions I was just thinking about like what Eric and I had were going to do and and things got in our way is really just generate ideas so so another way of think about this okay we're brainstorming well you know the open meeting law says you can't put your opinion in in say in the in the packet you can put information I mean if you think about well what are the ways that you can engage with people okay let's say face-to-face interviews is that an opinion or is that just a reality that everyone knows there's set ways to to gather information for people it seemed like instead of this two people do that could we actually just say okay everyone put in the packet uh ways you can think of that we could reach out to people will have a list of things that just like a list of questions we'll have a list of things and then that'll be on the packet it's open anyone can see it and that's what we'll discuss I just you know again in pushing this idea of what can you gather without a formal um outside of a of a formal meeting is that another thing that would be in that category so I guess that's a question for Athena julan May yeah go right ahead go right ahead um so there's there's a balance between making sure the committee is following the the letter and spirit of the law and then just making it easy for the chair to manage a meeting and for committee members to engage in a meeting so um what you're suggesting sounds like nine different people writing a document with all their opinions about a public input and participation and then all nine of you have to read eight other documents that becomes a little unwieldy in terms of meeting management um if they're posted then you know you're you're following the letter of the law but it's an unwieldy process so in that way it to me it makes more sense for one member to gather that information and compile it and then that is what's shared before the next meeting so um while your suggestion that everyone send their ideas and we post those in the packet meets the letter of the law it's an unwieldy process to have multiple versions of something that all nine of you have to read before a meeting it's just much so um yeah I mean the question really was more about that not wedded to that specific thing if it's one person Gathering it in other words it's not deliberation to just to bring ideas together and I mean that's really my to bring questions together to say here's a you know sure I'll collect everyone just send me your things and I'll I'll I'll put this all together and then we'll have our our subject you know again as a way of again of moving things forward yeah so everyone could send you their their brainstorm ideas about um public input and then you compile them the the what we don't want to get into is then you sharing that document with the committee and then the committee having feedback on that all outside of a meeting so we we collect and compile and then share at the next meeting and and in the packet and that's fine okay good excellent thank you um Erica or I said did I say Andy and then Erica yeah Andy go ahead yeah I guess um I was trying to think of what we we made some sort of a distinction between what what the legal support would be versus consultant support and and the the legal was more about like what does the law say about what our charges and what what kinds of changes would require what types of um action and then um you know a consultant might be more like Well here here's how other places have done it or here's you know whatever so I guess we had talked about having about collecting things more broadly than just what can be done locally but I'm not I'm not I'm not sure I'm clear exactly even though i' you know I've read the law and but I'm not sure exactly if we are it would be helpful I think to to know what you know as we're as we're collecting ideas to know which ones are actionable locally and which ones are are act require more heroic Measures and so if that's something that KP law could tell us easily at the outset I would enjoy hearing that okay um Erica thank you I wanted to just so basically second that which is to propose that I think that some initial framing um about the the legal the legal questions that sort of underg this process would be helpful I would just propose that we do it after we've given s given ourselves just a little bit of a start on the content of of what we're charged with in other words perhaps not the next meeting um because we're just sort of getting our procedures in order but maybe not two months out because we we want to have we want to have the legal framework in mind as we go about our work so I think but having an init it's my opinion that having an initial framing from um the people who know the legal framework that we're want to dig into uh would be helpful in the near future all righty thank you um Bernie yeah I and thank you um Erica and Andy those are you know those great points and and it um I I also think there's another audience here that may benefit from U an appearance by Council and or the town attorney uh uh and and to give not only to give us an understanding of of where the guardrails are on this and you know where where where things may and or may not head um that's one that's very important for us to have a shared understanding of what the mission is but the other thing is is that we have a public and we have a we have a Town Council uh none of whom have ever done this um most of whom probably didn't even realize this was in the church so um giving uh Town Town shney chance to give us an overview and an explanation of what the process is and what um is is something that then can be archived so people can go back to it and look at it uh if they come new to the process and wonder or uh for those of us who um are like myself are aged and may have memory issues you can go back and review it um so so I'm I'm I'm agreeing with Erica and Andy and I I would very much like to have Council here to meet with us okay Dan I really um second your point Bernie I think that that public e um education engagement part is I agree with you that's really important um because it is I mean this is stuff most people unless you dig into it you just don't you don't don't even know what there you don't know what the content is so that's I I think that's good Ken but I just happen to agree with what the what Bernie most succinctly put excellent um Al righty any other questions or comments what I'm hearing is generally uh yeah go ahead Athena y i I was just going to ask um if there was consensus on um that the committee would begin to collect questions it sounds like we don't have a person yet who will be doing the collecting and compiling um and that uh a presentation about the framing would be helpful but not yet and and then questions would be submitted to council for some feedback later is that the consensus I think that seems like a pretty solid idea of the consensus um Ken did you Al righty uh Marcus sorry just fighting with the mute button yeah I would agree with that con the summary and uh agree that there's consensus okay excellent perfect so we have consensus I'll send out an email to everybody or no I can't send out an email um Athena could you send out an email to everyone at some point asking for their questions um and then uh we can have KP law come at a later date and discuss with us excellent thank you so much um so moving us along to agenda item number six which is our meeting schedule um so we're currently scheduled to meet uh once every two weeks and um and mostly virtual with the option of having some hybrid meetings um and there's one interesting caveat to that which is that our next scheduled meeting is actively on Halloween um and thanks for pulling that up that's excellent um and then the reason that that is is because in November there's only room I believe correct me if I'm wrong Athena for one uh for one meeting in November and one meeting in December um which would be half of what we normally do on those months so I'll leave it what go ahead y raise my hand mute why is it we can only meet once in November and once in there why couldn't we meet on different two different Thursdays in November and December um Julian I can't raise my hand while I'm screen sharing may go right ahead yep go right ahead so um the dates that I proposed here are just proposed um I wanted to include the option of a third meeting in October um because there was only one date in November that was available so I've the dates that I've listed here are alternating with the council's governance organization and legislation committee um which I'm also liais on to so I can't be in both of those meetings at the same PL at the same time they meet 630 to 8:30 on Thursdays alternating Thursdays so these dates alternate with Go's dates um the November 14 meeting the other Thursday that's available in November is a holiday and so that's why there's only that one THS in November um and I think I put that in the notes here's 1128 is Thanksgiving holiday and then um 12:26 um I also admitted because it's the schools winter holiday break um I admitted a meeting on January 2 because that's the last day of Hanukkah um this date I included um but it is the last day or the first day of forum so um I just wanted to make a note of that in case the committee felt one way or another um and then I've also made notes about Passover the school's April vacation juneth um and then the Fourth of July holiday um so that was my that was my reasoning um in picking those dates and then I I also wanted to say that I've included these all as virtual meetings but um because the committee had asked in the first meeting meeting that I look and see what what hybrid meetings I could accommodate and it made more sense to me rather than just picking uh some random dates that I could serve uh as hybrid meetings um would would be to ask the committee to be uh you know think about which meetings would be helpful to have hybrid that I can support and and do it that way rather than just kind of picking random ones that was my logic okay great thank you Dan so just as a technical thing is it it's required that that you um be here for every meeting is that a like a is there any wiggle room in that I mean this question actually came up because we were talking the other day about um subcommittee work and that's extra Demand on your time so is that I mean we can't run our own meeting is that the like just the rules of the Town how much leeway is there in that um that's a good question so um right now the the zoom is the licensed users of Zoom are some Town staff um so if you wanted to hold extra meetings then a town staff member and it might not be me would have to start that meeting um schedule it and and post it and then start it um but once somebody begins recording then they don't necessarily need to stay that might happen on nights that um I have something else going on I might kick your meeting off for you and begin recording and then hop off um so I don't necessarily need to be there but I'm the staff person assigned so um and my zoom license I can't have two meetings on the same night and I'm liaison to both this committee and go so I would ask this committee not to schedule meetings at the same time M go ahead is there another evening we could meet or was Andy next sorry is there another my question was is there another evening at 6 that we could I don't see a with that we'd have to think about everyone's schedules and conflicts but I think that would be great um Andy I was gonna ask the same question I mean when we met I guess our first meeting I just put every other week I just put us in at 6 to eight or whatever so then I saw this and it's like that's not the case so I don't know um you know if we could meet every other week and then if we can meet on a Thursday maybe pick a Wednesday or something I I I don't know how complicated that I know that's complicated but um yeah um Marcus yeah I I just GNA say I'm not going to be here next week I'm driving back from New Jersey for work but um I mean I can certainly support most evenings given enough heads up s okay great um Erica I saw your hand up then it went down did you have something to say yeah I wanted to just ask um if what we initially thought about the every other week and so on given what this looks like when we actually look at dates on calendar if that still seems optimal I'm not suggesting that we that we um you know meet every week or twice a week or something but that we have um maybe we have to think about this a different way if it doesn't seem like the Cadence of these meetings is matching what we hope to do yeah um do you still have your hand up Marcus sorry forgot to take that um Andy yeah um maybe it maybe we don't need to so far in advance because as we get into information gathering we may be doing you know a variety of meeting types that maybe some of them me during the day or maybe maybe we you know I maybe it's good for us to keep coming together to deliberate every two weeks but I I just I don't know I I guess Erica's question also raised for me um do we want to just you know figure out what we need to do over the next couple of months and then you know at least a month in advance we come up with the you know two the the following month's you know schedule I I don't know but at some point I think it's going to get a little more we're not just going to be collecting information from people at six o'clock at night so right yeah no kidding Julian if I may that this could be treated as a as a bare bones and then with the understanding that it meetings could be scheduled at on other evenings or at other locations or something Erica yeah to that point um Athena or or others um how well Athena specifically how much advanced notice uh would is is proper if we decide we actually you know we need to add another meeting in November um because we don't want to lose the Rhythm how much advanced notice is proper for Public Announcement and for your sched in and everything else um so the the meeting notices need to be published 48 hours in advance and the 48 hours is business days only so if you have a meeting on Thursday it needs to be posted by that time on Tuesday um if a meeting is Tuesday it needs to be posted by that time on Friday um and so on so typically I mean with the Cadence that you have now there's plenty of time to post meetings in between but if today you decided that you wanted to meet again next week There's time to post that um so unless you're going to be meeting more more frequently than that it's easy to add meetings in between if if you feel like that's uh it's needed okay Marcus and then Meg yeah this time it's for real um I was going to say I agree with like a bi-weekly Cadence I think we kind of need to keep things moving along but I also agree with the sentiments that we don't need to start thinking about you know ju how we might impact with July 4th and things like that so kind of keeping things here and now is good for now on the understanding I think that like I think they're saying like because of bare bones would be roughly every two weeks um but firming it up maybe a month out maybe two months out or something Megan then I have a comment for myself could we could we lower the meeting schedule since we're not talking about it and it's hard to see each other and I'll just say Thursday is the worst night of the week for me I have two other things that meet on Thursdays I'm I'm just I'm happy to not show up at those other two things but I'm just would be another night would be great any night Saturday yes um I'll give my own comment given that I think everybody else spoken um I'll just say personally I would have no problem meeting on Saturday nights or another night however um has that was a joke work we want to keep um so that uh my point there my other point is that I think it's important to have some flexibility simply because we're going to be scheduling Outreach sessions listening sessions Etc in the community so we need to have some flexibility around when exactly our meetings are and what we're doing and all that sort of stuff um I would just say we have to make a decision tonight on this it at least for a certain amount of time given that I'll just offer my own perspective I do not want to meet on Halloween and I think um and I think that generally speaking it would be to meet a little bit more frequently in November and December if we could find another date that works Bernie yeah I would think I would would suggest we we take the schedule that before us lock in those dates just because then we have them fixed and then we look for other times as as has been suggested we look for other other days and times when we can meet I guess uh I I guess we we can't meet on the common day of rest still um which is Sundays but other than that we could meet you know uh any other time I would not want to meet Monday nights because I actually feel compelled now to um to to attend some of the council meetings live instead of trying to catch them up on video um what if we we take the schedule that's in front of us and say okay we're gonna we're gonna work from this and then we're gonna we're gonna do a little Jazz and you know vary it up as as the neiz the constraints are if we're going to meet by Zoom the only the constraints are ours in terms of time um we need to and to get a staff person with a zoom license to to link us up I mean those are those are the constraints um you know it's always wonderful to have a thing here but she doesn't need to be um you know so um you know so so that's what that that would be my suggestions we we accept the schedule um I was going to have the grandkids come in on Halloween and say hello to the committee but other because they're the only trick-or-treaters I get but you know I can I can certainly meet on I can certainly meet on Halloween and I can be a little more flexible with my schedule um so Al righty thank you um Andy um could we see the schedule again and it is perfectly understandable to if if the committee chooses to adopt this schedule um to revisit it and you know shift or ad or cancel meetings as needed it's there's no um this isn't set in stone even if it's adopted could we I'm wondering if we if we look at this and and if we actually had every other week a meeting and on weeks where there's a conflict on a Thursday we try to have a a Wednesday because if we cancel the 31st then we're not going to meet till the 14th and we'll only meet one and then we won't meet until the 12 so that's crazy that seems like a a lot large gap so is there any way that we could just go back to every other week and then identify whatever Thursdays don't work for for Athena you know and then pick a different night that we on a twoe schedule I'll speak for myself Wednesdays don't work for me but I could certainly do Friday Tuesday Etc um so I I totally agree with the gist of that um Dan and then I'm thinking to make a motion to sort of wrap this up yeah I mean I think this is what Andy just touched on and and and I meant to say earlier it's not that we don't want you Athena um no but if there's you know the to you know I know I think some people have said Gee I plann this out from the beginning every two weeks I won't be able to make the 14th um and so sticking to that and really doing either that the first thing is is there another administrative person that can do it and then the last line is okay let's find another date it seems like given the work it took to get the Thursday thing happening that should be the priority and only change it if there's no one who can start a zoom meeting yeah uh just so you know Dan your microphone's giving me a fair bit of feedback I don't know if that's the case for other folks too yes just so you're aware I'm gonna make the motion that we adopt this meeting schedule um with the one amendment that we do not meet on on October 31st and that we uh and that we agree to the general premise of aiming to meet every two weeks and uh and we'll change the schedule as needed to schedule other weekday evenings um or hybrid meetings when we see fit do we need a second yes second I can second that so we can have discussion and excellent um question does that mean we don't meet again until the 14th of November that was my question I would that's a good point um okay a motion has been made motion has been seconded um and I do agree I would accept a friendly Amendment um because that's a fair stretch of time without meeting so November um if the 30th doesn't work November 5th is a Tuesday that's election day sorry Monday the 4th is a council meeting Tuesday the 5th is election day uh Wednesday the 6th Julian you said you weren't available um so the next meeting would be the seventh I could ask somebody to cover that meeting since I have go or Friday the 8th I would accept a friend go ahead M it's I guess we don't want to meet on Election Day but we won't know anything between 6 and 8 and we will have voted maybe that's silly maybe we're all going to be doing our election meditation I think the town staff will be busy with the oh yeah right right Erica um I just say the other thing to consider there is yes and we also want to give people as much time to vote as possible if their work day ends at 5 and our begins at 6 theoretically um Erica uh yeah I'm not sure it's a great idea to to plan on Election night um if the you know if the Republic holds I think that having our um meeting on the 7th if we can get an alternate for Athena and Athena if that all works for you I think that's what I would propose I agree I'll accept a friendly Amendment for the second uh for the seventh excuse me um Meg would you also accept that yes excellent so I'll Andy go ahead you're muted so then that means that we would the next meeting would be the 14th if we stick to the schedule so I kind of feel like we should go we should go to the we should revise the schedule to be going every two weeks so it would be the 7th it' be the 21st it would be December 5th it would be you know um you know like that these these were chosen deliberately because they don't coincide with go so the alternating weeks are go meeting dates so if if you were to shift to those dates then I wouldn't be able to attend any of these meetings oh well I don't want that I mean may maybe we yeah okay so then so then maybe we do to do two weeks in a row then I guess yeah okay excellent um any other comments questions on this Meg has a hand up Meg sorry it didn't come up Meg go ahead um so was muted um that we're going to meet on the not on the Halloween but on the 7th and then again on the 14th and back on the schedule for the time being I believe so yes so we're all we're the only thing we're voting on is changing October 31st to November 7th no we are voting on that and adopting this schedule oh okay we adopting this schedule the motion is to move the October 31st meeting to November 7th um to adopt this schedule as our meeting schedule with the understanding that we will meet generally speaking every two weeks and can have hybrid meetings as needed Andy okay um so sorry to Bel labor this but but um that the next meeting after the 14th would then be December 12th so that's a month correct we want to try to add something in between there yeah we might want to add that um is there any dates that you can pull up on the calendar that might work for you witha so the 21st is a goall meeting you could meet that day the November 28th is a holiday and then December 5th is go meeting if you want to stick to Thursdays you could do the 21st of November without me or the 5th of December without me let's do the 21st of November um Erica um okay I was was lost in the calendar I was thinking that if there was an alternative date um the following week but I think that means Thanksgiving that's right okay um then I guess the motion is to adopt this meeting schedule as presented currently with uh the meeting on October 31st cancelled the meeting that meeting moved to November 7th and an additional meeting added on November 21st um Meg do you want to second that again second excellent um so the similar issue that came up though so what's the 14th is that that's three weeks in a row should we ditch the 14th oh good point I think we can have the 14th I'd rather meet too much than too little I guess but that's three meetings oh no we just went from one meeting in November to three yeah the question would be is there going to be something substantive to discuss on the 21st we don't know yet unless we wanted to schedule that in is that would be the the um maybe the time that town attorney comes to speak to us and that's the sole topic uh my my suggestion if I may Julian my suggestion is is to leave open the door of adding when it feels that okay additional meetings would be helpful and and that will give you the members an idea of when additional meetings will be helpful so like I said you can adopt the schedule and then add and change as you go when it feels that additional meetings would be helpful and and you don't need to figure out the entire calendar of this that's a great idea okay sounds good um and and meetings can be cancelled as well I'm sorry for interrupting um do we want to then pull out the 14th and figure we can add it later if we need it decide we need a meeting the next week sure that sounds good to me sounds good okay um so adopting the meeting schedule as presented here with the understanding that we may have hybrid meetings um from time to time uh any other comments questions thoughts I don't see any Meg seconded um we'll start voting I see you first Andy uh yes um I'm a yes uh Marcus yes uh Erica yes Dan yes Bernie yes 10 Meg yes excellent um that is eight in favor one absent um for that so we'll move on to our y go ahead Julian I will um take the comments out of this I will add it to the Charter review committee's web page and share it with members awesome thank you so much um great great great okay next point is number seven Outreach um subgroups of interest and topics so this is I think we're going to try to schedule and have our Outreach discussions with um different communities and see where we want to focus our Outreach uh before we start working on the charter itself comments questions on this raise your hand sorry I'm um is this relating to the other agenda item number 10 uh we were setting up to have a conversation about public comment public Outreach yeah if that's um or a separate item this is my idea of this item was to have it be we are developing groups that we find important to reach out to um whether that be Town Council Town staff uh blank Community blank neighborhood Etc um that's what I was thinking of this but if you and Dan did some research or work on this together and want to report on it feel free no I can speak to that when we get to that agenda I just wanted to make sure excellent um so thoughts on groups to reach out to Meg well I want wonder if we want to hear talk about Erica and Dan's report first so that we're not they're so related and they've done that work I'm worried also at the time that we might not get through this agenda sure I can be very brief um okay give give us a short report I'm giving I'm jumping to agenda item 10 for anyone who's following along um so the question that came up in our last meeting about having a working groups subcommittee on uh uh generating ideas around public Outreach public input feedback mechanisms Etc um we ended up in a in a meeting with Dan and myself and Julian and Athena to discuss the possibilities and whether or not and how that would work whether or not that would violate in any way the open meeting law the the points that we were sort of clarifying And discussing earlier in this meeting um and we arrived at some some possibilities um I think for doing individual sort of brainstorming and idea generating to then bring back to the group but we hit upon I think please you know correct me if I'm saying this wrong we hit upon the same challenges that we were hitting on earlier when we were talking about uh how to generate questions for um a legal consultation or anything else that there's a issue with if we meet outside if Dan and I meet outside of this group we have to consider it a um a subcommittee subject to all the same uh the same guidelines um which we can do if this group feels that that's the way to go um I'm not sure that that's the way to go in addition I just wanted to mention Dan and I weren't able to move forward more and it's it's my my fault because I had a personal uh a personal family um tragedy that I had to travel for and so I missed a bunch of days in the last week that I wasn't able to keep communicating on this subject so we haven't moved that topic forward but I just wanted to say as an agenda item how do we want to handle brainstorming around public Outreach we're sort of back to where we were which is do we want to um do we want to um delegate that out to one or more people um again to generate ideas to then bring back to a future meeting to discuss with the larger group excellent thanks for that report out um Dan does that seem good to you anything you want to add yeah I mean I I think that we my understanding of our discussion during the during Athena's open meeting presentation was that we can um that we can each send ideas to one person and they can put together and that that's a way of actually drawing on everyone without a subcommittee and getting everyone's input putting it in one place and then discussing it so that I mean if if I've understood that correctly that seems like the way to move forward um yeah we we didn't we weren't able to meet I could certainly say what my ideas are what my my individual brainstorm is but maybe that's for another uh another session but yeah as far as how to do it that seems to me if that that can be without conflict with open meeting and get everyone's input that that's the way to go excellent um Bernie yeah looking at the agenda and and listening to Eric and and and Dan it it seems to me that um we have Outreach of subgroups we have topic States and locations for outreach events and then we have the the the Notions of of brainstorming that um Dan has Erica has it would make sense to to designate a person for us to send our our our individual correspondents to have that person compile it sort it and then present it back to the uh to the committee now whether that's you know Dan's nodding pretty enthusiastically so I'd nominate him um you know or or Erica you guys had this idea to begin with so U it doesn't matter to me who who who does it but I think uh those three topic areas for um for tonight are probably best served by us um doing some quiet contemplation committing them to an email and sending them to a person who can uh who who can compile it all for and feed it back to feed it back to the committee at our next meeting I think that's an excellent idea um Erica yes thank you that's what I was getting at and um just a clarifying question when we're talking about doing this this brainstorming outside and and sending one person ideas uh are we T Athena maybe this is for you are we talking about emailing you and and then you are forwarding to a person are we can we have a running document somewhere that lives somewhere to so people can sort of paste into um it's it's best if one person collects that information and then does the compiling and then we put the document into the next meeting packet if it's updated in between meetings by that one person then we would put the the next version and the next meeting packet I haven't shed shared folks email addresses with uh you aside from Julian's because he said that I could at the first meeting um so if somebody wants to volunteer to to do that compiling and is open to having their email address shared with the committee um then I will send it around and and uh invite folks to respond to that person and just this is about brainstorming for like ways we can Outreach is that correct yes okay excellent um Meg go right ahead I I would love to have everybody's email even just to write to one person and say when you said that what did you mean we should all know that our emails are uh if there's a lawsuit you know we're liable to whatever we write so but I I would like to know everybody's email now that we know the guns and your emails can be collected um if there's a public records request they can right someone can take your phone and find what your emails are just so folks but I don't I I'm not planning to write any emails that I would be embarrassed for anybody to see me neither um Dan yeah I mean this connects with the this subject a little down the agenda that I would like that also and of course if someone doesn't want to share it that's their right but I guess it feels like this has been a bottleneck in our communication and and really yeah and I would like I'd like to there to be enough trust that we have the the the discretion to to manage this um because it is I mean I couldn't communicate with Erica um and it seems like and and already some of us have each other's emails some don't it seems like a thing that we should we should just be able to you know I mean exactly what Meg just said it's like oh you said something like this could you send me a link to that I didn't have a CH time to ask you in the committee and we'll put the link in in our archive on the website it seems like right exactly there shouldn't be there shouldn't be stickiness around this you know I agree it is somewhat cumbersome even I don't have everyone's individual email so it would be it would be helpful to get that at some point and and I will say openly everyone can have mine I'm I've uh that's to that's what is it what is it wait a minute maybe I have to think about it's it's Dan mus Dan musk1 Gmail that's um Athena I'm gonna ask everyone to um folks might not feel comfortable and we don't have all nine members here in this meeting to let me know in writing that you would like your email shared it might not be comfortable to say I don't want my email email shared publicly in this open Forum Dan you've just made your email address available to anybody who might see this meeting right now or watch the recording and I I I feel very Pro protective as a staff member of your privacy as regular folks and that you might not want everyone um to have your email address and to be emailing you about this kind of stuff all the time so um it's not just open meaning law that I'm aware of but also that you're your people and you might not want to hear from everybody you might not want to get emails from uh residents about this at your at your email address so I'm just gonna ask everybody to just send me an email saying yeah go ahead and share my email address and then I'll do that and if not then I won't excellent thank you so much Athena Dan do you still have a question no Erica uh just returning to the to the topic at hand um I'll just put my name forward I will send Athena my email to then distribute to the group if uh if anyone unless anyone has any objection I'm happy to be the person to compile to collect everyone's input on this topic which is ideas for methods on public comment public Outreach and feedback excellent thank you um so I guess we can send our ideas and brainstorming thoughts for outreach to Erica um if we have a consensus for that I don't think we need to vote on it um thank you thank you I appreciate it Erica that's and we'll help thank you Erica excellent so that covers number seven it also pretty much covers N9 and 10 so I'll move us to number eight which is our relationship as a committee with the Town Council Dan had me put this on the agenda so if there's anything you want to speak to about it Dan feel free go right ahead I mean I think a lot of the things have come up where it feels like um I mean I've had a certain amount of frustration that that that this uh I mean there are various limits that have come come up against and it was a question I had early on like what is our what is our independence from from the council and I you know and looking at other Like Water Town their Charter Review Committee is the Town Council and so ours is very different which is we're not nine non-employees so I guess I put it on the agenda really because I feel like it's good to be clear about that and also um yeah I mean out of frustration and as I said a number of these things have kind of been addressed in the course of this um and I but I also felt like interested in hearing how other people see it too Andy yeah I mean I think you're you're right that that um other places might have the council be the be be the committee but in in amer's case we chose to have it be a separate uh uh committee and I guess the relationship is that anything that we propose that the council can change or recommend to the legislature or whatever then they then we will be forwarding that to them to act on it one way or another but um I would hope that we would be uh you know I from what I'm hearing from everybody that they would be a a major constituent that that we would be talking to as far as collecting information about how things are working how things could be improved um and that you know I I would love to hear from you know current and former council members about what's working about the charter and what isn't and what their what ideas they have for making it you know better um so but I think our our charge is broader than just you know what what the council wants it's basically to send a report to the council to to act on to the extent that that it's within their purview um but but then we'd be looking to collect information from a broad group of constituents anybody with and and then to make whatever recomendations we see as as right without considering what what they think I mean we would take their input obviously but right um Ken to um kind of echo what Annie said before I realized he was gonna say it um my understanding is that it's it's those it's those two pieces those two relationships are going to be our interviewees we're going to get the information from them in some ways I would treat them as an Amorous resident in other ways I would you know take obviously their very unique perspective into account when they give their input and I think before we had our first meeting we had with a council member that actually submitted information that we all have access to opinions about something in particular um and then that we would simply it would be kind of a one I'm not sure if there's a conversation really with them at the end or even at the six-month report period or at the end final report period we send our information there I suppose they can come back and ask us for clarification but I feel like it's like a one more or less a oneway of information under them and they do with it what they what they can that's my understanding if it's more complex than that I would love to know that right now yeah I I completely agree Ken um I think we're a distinctly separate and unique body from the Town Council we can make recommendations that they as body will disagree with that they body will agree with um I think it's important that we collect our uh collect feedback from them like we would any other resident considering their perspective as counselors and former counselors and that we send our report and clarify and discuss it with them as needed maybe we'll go to a meeting of theirs to discuss it and answer questions but that's sort of pretty firmly how I feel our relationship with the council should be m and also the council or individuals you know they may have different opinions from each other so do we beat them all you know anyway they're not of one mind necessarily excellent um I guess I don't really know if a motion is necessary or helpful here but um I don't really see a need for one we seem to have pretty decent consent on that any other questions comments no seeing none Andy I guess just I just want to make sure I'm understanding what the concern was what what what was there a concern that the council would be uh governing our our work in some way um it was you know again really I think a lot of it was about this administrative stuff and and and maybe it's just working out Kinks um I mean the the comments you guys this this is how I see it too in terms of what our who we're talking to what the goals are so no it was more just about I guess really my question came from frustration for of whatever procedural things that were that seem to be getting in the way and and you know are they necessary or and that's really what was driving and as I said a number of these things we kind of got worked out in the course of our our earlier conversation but no I agree as far as yeah what I mean I personally very interested in in talking to to um current and former counselors I think this whole thing of what there's a law on paper and then there's a law when you have to actually work in it and that second question is really interesting to me um yeah you know and I don't I don't know I mean this is just an aside I found this really interesting report it's about 20 years old but it's about um it's about home rule in Massachusetts it's kind of an overview and especially in the eastern part of the state so it's not completely clear but it goes into all this detail about Charter commission uh special act the way that the laws was was intended the way it's actually worked out so if anyone's I mean if you're interest there's obviously you can go down a lot of rabbit holes with the stuff but if people are interested I thought it was a it was a very much like this is the way things actually are working as opposed to what the intention was when the home rule Act was passed in the mid-60s so yeah anyway um yeah that's all yeah thank you um I think we have a pretty decent consensus um last call questions comments no okay um I'll move us along uh the next point is since we did 10 11 we sort of discuss but not really um which is Outreach and document review subcommittee um we're sending all our feedback um for outreach and brainstorming to Erica but the question is do we as a charter Review Committee want to have a subcommittee for outreach a subcommittee to review documents or even a subcommittee in general um and if we do we should vote to create that and if we feel like sending um the information to Erica is sufficient um then I think that is appropriate as well Bernie yeah I would agree that you know if you if if people have U suggestions about subcommittees uh to throw that into the mix and give Erica one more thing to do um but I I really don't know that we need to grade subcommittees right now and I really don't know that we can create subcommittees until we agree on how we're going to do Outreach and who we're going to do Outreach 2 and uh so it's it's one of these things that we need to be mindful of but wait yeah absolutely Ken I think that that's something that will happen I don't think we need to think about it at the moment okay sounds great I would I would tend to agree so moving on to number 12 um election of officers uh I will first take nominations for chair if you'd like to nominate someone for chair please raise your hand um and then after we do chair I'll take nominations for vice chair Dan go ahead I'm G to nominate the current temporary chair that's you all righty thank you very much um I accept your nomination and appreciate it and um will does that need a second Athena or nope okay um I'll take uh roll call vote um for Nom let let me if there's not GNA be another hand going up I will move I will move that nominations be closed thank you yes um anyone else who wants to run anyone else who would like to run for chair I should have taken that if anybody else would like to run please say so now I don't see any any comments regarding I I will I will move that nominations be closed okay I second it second that can can we call that a a motion to elect Julian as chair sure excellent thank you um for helping me chair my chairing Bernie excellent I'll send you the bill don't worry sounds good I'll check the mailbox um Dan uh yes yes um I'll abstain uh Erica yes Andy yes Bernie yes Marcus yes Ken yes Meg yes excellent thank you uh let the record show that I am now your permanent chair if you have questions or feedback you just got my email feel free to email me I will uh that was a eight to zero vote with one abson um and then I will move to you Dan you still have your hand up uh I do and uh I just wanted to say that you know good job and I and one thing I've been really thinking about too is not just that your your your presence in the meeting of how great it is to see and here I am a bald gray guy to see young people stepping in it's really encouraging it's really encouraging so thank you for being willing to do this y thank you so much I appreciate it um Andy and then I'll take nominations for vice chair oh I was gonna make a nomination oh excellent um go ahead and make a nomination for vice chair nominations are open for Vice chair Andy go ahead um I I'd like to nominate Erica oh okay excellent um do you accept the nomination yes excellent um thank you very much Andy other nominations for vice chair seeing I'll move I'll move that uh we make uh Eric Amin the vice chair excellent I second that thank you Bernie um I will take a roll call vote in favor of appointing Erica as Vice chair um Andy Churchill I yes um myself I Erica obain Dan certainly Bernie yes yes uh Marcus yes Ken yes um Meg yes excellent thank you so much congrats Erica um I will look forward to working with you and thank you Andy for your services temporary Vice chair um excellent so now now that we have done that I will move to our 13th agenda item which is do we as a committee have an interest in having a retreat um we want to do that not thoughts questions ideas Etc I'll look for I think that's excellent um Erica I think it might be useful um I think that if it feels a bit soon to start planning for it but I think that it it might come in really handy as a sort of of uh to have a long a more prolonged period in which to work things out excellent um Ken I yeah I would also be supportive of it and I guess the the leading question next leading question which I don't want to devolve in a in a a very long conversation but the um uh you know with that what what what would a retreat be would it be part social part supercharged um committee meeting that get a ton of stuff done in a short period of time or or what what exactly would that look like like as a charter review commission uh I think yes that it would be um that it would be sort of a supercharge like get to know each other and see if we can sort of knock out a bunch of stuff if there's a period in time where we divulge and look through the entire Charter um that might be an appropriate time for retreat Etc Meg and then Andy um I agree so great I sorry about the phone I was on mute um we never answer our landline I don't anyway uh I think it would be I agree that it would be good to have it not right away so that we have some time to think about what would be the best use and to have more clarity about what the questions are that we're pondering uh sometime maybe early January something like that because social is a good thing to do I would really hope it could be in person I don't know if that's possible but that would be ideal to have be physically in the same place but I think something like uh soon enough so that there's time you know that we're not Lolly gagging but enough time to give some more thought to exactly focus on what we would be the best use of iners discussion excellent um Andy is a uh is a retreat still a public meeting I assume so we would still have to post it and people might show up watch us Retreat um we might we might Outlast them but okay so it's basically a long meeting to give us more time to both get to know each other and get things you get make some progress on things right yes and for members of the public if you plan on attending you get to watch us all sit back and our recliners and discuss things anyway um excellent so I agree I think it would be good to have a inperson retreat at some point um maybe in December or January uh where we sort of work on stuff and that I don't want to make a motion now I don't feel like that's appropriate um um but I agree a committee Retreat would be great other questions comments about that nope seeing none um number 14 before we adjourn uh future agenda topics I'll just say that um one thing to be aware of is that the website has been updated to have the league Women Voters um recommendations as well as how they got to their process and all of that type of stuff um posted there so you can find it in the same place where counselor hanaki submitted her comments um and look at those documents if anyone's curious and then future agenda topics I'm open for pretty much anything and I'll make a note of it and put in my next agenda just raise your hand Erica go right ahead thank you in the interest of um for like long runway for planning and moving things forward I want to propose that we have on the agenda um an initial readout of whatever the first round of brainstorming is on the subject of public comment public Outreach so that would mean not only having it on the agenda but setting an internal committee deadline of everybody send committing to send send me comments ideas Etc by a date uh with it like let's say 48 hours so that I can um put that together and have it ready for our discussion that sound fair yeah that sounds so if our if our meeting is on the 7th right that's what we agreed on we're on the seventh um can we say that um you emails are are sent to me by the 5th so not only do you have to vote but you have to send me an email by November 5th good that sounds excellent to me um I'm just making a note of it Athena I'm sorry an additional question there go ahead that that um document that I put together with everyone's feedback um if I I'm assuming that's going to event land in the document Center attached to our meeting our committee documents um is there is there a timeline where I need to get that to you there's not a requirement that materials go in the packet prior to a meeting but it's helpful for members to have that material in advance so they have a chance to look through it before the meeting begins um so earlier is always better I think uh two days if that suits the committee then two days is a reasonable amount of time excellent thank you Andy yeah I was just um gonna say I think some something similar that you know Eric Erica you may want to have time to look at it and put put it together in time for then you to send it to Athena to put it in our packet so right you want it a little sooner than the fifth yeah that's why I asked I I guess I asked those things out of order I should have asked atha first but um if we could say the third okay I I thir I would give yourself a little I would give yourself a little more slack I would say the first um people could uh or down the third I yeah I'm sorry all right that's that's fine I I think it depends on how fast you you intend to work I'll work very fast if you guys send me you know like good put early even better but we'll say by the third so I can do some clean up and send it over to Athena excellent I think that is a great idea thank you so much Erica other agenda topics that will certainly be on our next agenda okay I don't see any Athena go ahead um I wanted to ask the committee and this can be um um I guess part of uh what maybe sent the suggestion to Erica about um a feedback form or something like that for the website and um how the committee wants to organize its material on the website it would be helpful for me to have some direction there so um if you want to include that as part of the conversation about the brainstorming and Outreach um that would be great otherwise it would be helpful to have a separate agenda item so we can I can ask those questions um yeah uh that sounds like an excent idea I will certainly put that as an a separate agenda item to at least discuss um because I think that's a good idea to have a feedback form that we can circulate in articulate um Meg I think my question was answered so okay topics for the next agenda we send to Athena and ideas for outreach we send to Erica yes okay um excellent topics to to um me and Julian is is great so that Julian's gonna set the agenda and then I'm just gonna be yeah I'm taking notes right now so I I have most of it but yes send it to me thank you and atha you were asking for feedback on organizing materials in the document in the committee documents um if the committee wants to collect feedback via an online form um and if the committee wants to um put some of its research together and in a place on its web page something like that how how the committee wants to give me some direction on how you'd like to do that right now I just put I put the League of Women Voters documents and the um the letter from councelor hanii and the community feedback link so um it it would be nice to just have a short discussion about how we'd like to organize those things thank you thank you excellent so are we also sending you um our email out to the rest of the commission if you want if you'd like yes okay excellent um other other comments etc for our for things not anticipated or um future agenda topics Etc seeing none uh I move Meg go ahead I'm really impressed that we finished this agenda when I looked at that I never thought we would so good job Julian I agree I agree I nobody felt rush9 and we squeezed in agenda points so congratulations everybody yeah I we should notice this was a massive agenda and we did it great leadership Julian I appreciate it um I try uh alrighty um I'm gonna move to adjourn can I have a second second excellent um the motion's been made by Julian for the sake of the records say Erica seconded because sometimes it's hard to hear that's what I was about to say say to say the name because in a recorded meeting a zoom meeting you have to say the name of who seconded it yes uh the motion's been made by Julian Hines and seconded by Erica M thank you to adjourn there you go um and um and I will uh I will start the vote uh Meg go ahead yes um myself is a yes Erica yes uh Andy yes Dan yep Bernie yes Ken Marcus yeah we are unanimously adjourned thank you so much thanks everybody thank you night everybody J good night everybody good night