##VIDEO ID:q_dEPEcQh-Y## I'm call calling the meeting of the Town services and Outreach committee the Town Council to order on October 24th 2024 it is 10:06 a.m. and uh we have all members present um this meeting is uh being conducted via remote means members of the public um are able um access the meeting via Zoom or by telephone and uh this uh is a zoom meeting so there is no uh public um attendance uh permitted for this meeting um let me just check to make sure that everybody who's on the committee can hear and be heard and uh start with Bob hegner yep present H Lord oh T is not with us at the moment she had joined and then maybe she we'll keep an eye out for yes uh Jennifer tab yes I'm here councelor Ryan present and Hollow Lord are you present yes presid okay so we have all five members of the committee who are presid um and so the meeting is called the order um I guess we will stay with the order of the agenda and go to public comment um but I do want to um advise everyone that we're going to be joined if possible by the town manager for a very brief period he is in out of town at a different meeting and so um and he just has one reappointment to present but um we do aot allow for public comment and I U public comment can be on any topic that is related to the committee's charge it does not have to be something that is on the agenda we ask that comments be limited to three minutes um I have one person who's raised their hand if anybody else who's in the audience would like to be recognized they too should their hand but please bring Tracy Zan then to and good morning Tracy hi good morning um yes so I wanted to come to the meeting today because I normally am not able to because I have conflicting work meetings um that meeting was canceled this morning um and I did email yesterday late last night um just about just my concerns about using that math. 2021 procedures on speed zoning guide just because it does not have some of the latest updates I have contacted mot about that before and I know it continues to be on the mk. website I'm hoping that at least I can have some note there saying that it some of the guidance in that document is based on the now outdated 2022 I mean 2012 Massachusetts amendments to the mecd um so I'm not sure how applicable that guidance is for the School zoning and that's the question I brought up um I am also interested of course in the topic of the transportation and parking commission I know that this is a topic that the TSO intends to take up a at a number of different meetings I wasn't really sure which parts of the charge um would be taken up at different meetings if that information is available just a sort of General guideline that would be helpful I mean I'm happy to comment on different sections of it I do think andac is supportive of the creation of the commission um um you know ever since the creation of the council there have been issues with Tac just in terms of what is tax like what what why does TAC exist um what should Tac be doing what should Tac not be doing um we have trouble getting form at our meetings you know we are advisory only and I was told actually um a few years ago that actually Tac was going to be uh disbanded completely because since the council were keepers of the public way there was really no need for tax so I do see like the best path forward is having a transportation and parking commission which has both resident members as well as staff so that um conversations on these issues can take place together like currently as it is and I have been forwarded some emails that come into the TAC email address which don't come directly to me they come to DPW and they're forwarded at dpw's discretion but when people are feeling frustrated about um what's happening in terms of safety or certain intersections or certain sidewalks or whatever um and I think one challenge currently is that because we are all residents on Tech and um and we have no staff is that it's very again we don't have any authority to like do anything um and then I do see there are a lot of benefits to having all the people like staff who can make those decisions in the room together with the residents and also just having those conversations take place together because currently I've talked to some people who write they they will reach out on these issues to their counselors or they will reach out to the town manager they will reach out sometimes to DPW sometimes they will reach out to the police and the same individuals may reach out to different people and when they do so they get a lot of different responses and sometimes those are contradictory responses and I think that that's like a messaging issue that's confusing to the public it's inefficient and it'd be great if instead those conversations would take place like in the central in a Central Committee and a central forum and then there wouldn't be that confusion and I think that that would make the public happier as well so again I'd be happy to talk more at a meeting or come as a speaker I do support the idea of a joint meeting with um Tso and Tac and the disability action advisory I guess they're now a council um commission but um I'm not sure exactly on the idea of having an in-person meeting again we have challenges as Tac even having Quorum online um and you know we currently have out there seven members we currently only seven members could be on the committee we currently have six one of our members is also on the charter review commission which also meets on Thursdays so that conflicts with Tac um I'm just not sure if we would be there I think that there could be some members there at such a joint meeting if it was held in person but I'm not sure we would have a quorum but um thank you he thank you Tracy are you going to be able to U stay you need to no I can go thank you I mean I can stay sorry if I'm welcome to come back in I'm you know unfortunately I don't know if it is I was I didn't know whether I should hold my comments you know until you're having those discussions but yeah I'll leave it to um councilor Ryan's discretion later as I will explain but thank you very much I appreciate your comments and I don't see anyone else who's requested public comment um going to the agenda um we'll continue on I may present the Town Council the town manager appointment later um the town manager can't join us but we're not going to do that right now and um I do want to go ahead and move to the proposed Transportation parking commission amendments um this is the first F discussion of the um topic and um I couldn't answer your question the question that came as a public comment about the um topics to be considered because uh We've delegated that responsibility to Vice chair of the committee councelor Ryan and um I'm actually going to turn the meeting over to him for the most part for the next section so councilor Ryan thanks thanks Andy um what I want to do is uh first just review a couple of things um and I think some of this may address traces questions and uh terms of what we're going to discuss in what order uh nothing is fixed in stone but um I did send a memo to the committee it is a public document it does lay out the five broad topics that I suggest that we use to govern our discussion um tonight or excuse me me this morning we're going to start with U um the the question of purpose why why this change is being proposed and if time permits uh maybe turn to scope um and as we'll we'll see in a minute there are there are four three other topics um that um are something that that I think will govern how we go about this um I'm going to talk a fair amount at the start and so people should be free to interrupt raise raise their hands or just just interrupt if they have a question or if something's not clear or if they think I'm going on too long I feel that it's probably appropriate to say a little bit just about the backgrounded history of this before we turn to the question of of why it's being proposed um and the goal at least this first part of the presentation is to eventually end up in a discussion of the members of the committee about whether they agree with you know the question being there is there a problem why is this being done um is the focus of of today first part and I'd like to get to a discussion of that and hear what you all think do you agree there's a problem um are there other pieces that that maybe should be highlighted etc etc so the goal is eventually get to a discussion um but there's going to be a fair amount of me talking for for a bit and Andy you're the chair and if it gets to be too much just interrupt me if people have questions or or concerns they can just interrupt um the first thing I wanted to point out is that there are five uh I count five key documents that you all should have in your possession um either on your computer computers or in my case I actually have it in hard copy as well um the first is the memo that I just alluded to that I sent to the committee on September 22nd on how I think we should proceed um I wasn't present at the meeting but my understanding is that the committee received it favorably and they felt that it was a good start um as I said it's not written in stone it can be revised changed altered at any time um but I laid out um I think it's five topics anyway that document should be something you should have handy um the second document is the draft charge itself um which is dated 71024 and then it was revised 8824 and the third document is the memo that the trans uh that the town manager sent uh to the Council on 81924 regarding the transportation reorganization um those two documents I suggest it should be the sort of the governing documents as we proceed the charge itself and then and then the town manager's memo outline uh the argument for it and uh what is proposing and I used a fair amount of that in today's presentation so those are those two documents um then there is proposed changes to the town There's a document that um I believe was submitted also by Paul it doesn't have a date but essentially proposed changes to the Town Council policy regarding control and regulation of the public ways this is a a document that has a series of of alterations and changes it basically shows what um the town manager is proposing to change and that addresses the question of scope and I don't know if we'll get to that today but if we do I have a document that will supplement that but that's the fourth document um and finally there is a mass City traffic commission summary report um which basically just is three pages and it gives you a kind of overview of what other cities and towns which are called cities um do with Transportation how they how they handle it and um it's basically for information my understanding is that was created by our planning department um at least that's what I I gather from looking at it anyway it's an interesting document to look at and it it might take away initially is just that um towns cities in in the Commonwealth deal with this in a lot of different ways um and so but that's something that so those are the five documents that I'm aware of um so in August of 2024 that the town manag submitted to the council a request to reorganize how the town makes decisions regarding transportation and parking and in essence it would involve dissolving the current uh Transportation advisory committee Tac and creating a new body transportation and parking commission or TPC it would also involve revisions to the current Town Council policy regarding the control and regulation of the public ways according to the amorist home Rule Charter section 2.14 the Town Council is The Keeper of the public way and as such quote shall control and regulate the public ways end quote in making his proposal to the Town Council the town managers submitted both a draft charge and a memo outlining the case for his proposed change and in my memo to you I propose using these two documents as the controlling documents as we make our way through this process I also proposed five broad categories for discussion as a way to get a handle on this and as I said the committee seems to be in agreement today I'd like to begin with the purpose U basically what's the problem um and and uh what we think what the manager thinks this uh will do to address it and if time permits uh turning to the question scope of the proposed changes the remaining topics involve the composition of the proposed commission its impact on the public and its relationship with the council and finally decision- making implementation and visioning sort of a fifth kind of grab bag category involved how decisions would be made what would govern those decisions how this would be implemented and the question of of long-range planning or Vision it occurred to me uh last night as I Was preparing this that actually there should be an added category perhaps the most important one which I left out which is actually going through the charge line by line so um I'm assuming that would be something we do at the end of this process um but again that's up to you all um so we probably should add as a as a a further piece of this puzzle is then taking the charge document and going through it based on our discussion uh line by line um so the area of transportation and parking or more broadly the control and regulation of the public ways involves a host of issues and a very large cast of characters it's an area which touches almost everyone in town on a regular basis and in very direct ways all of us on a daily basis Walk Drive use public transit and or bike in town not only does this topic impact us all I think it's fair to say that we all see ourselves as quote unquote experts and we all have often very strong opinions on this topic whether it's the state of our roads and sidewalks theep what we see some of us as the epidemic of speeding pedestrian bike safety roundabouts Etc Etc it is I think fair to say that we probably hear more from our constituents on issues related to the control and regulation of the public ways than we do on all other issues combined so vehicular pedestrian and bike safety parking requests traffic design and controls public transportation service and accessibility crosswalks rapid flashing beacons enhancements to walking and bike networks Improvement of intersections traffic caling measures addressing concerns of those with visual or physical challenges in using our transportation system creating safe routes to schools requests to install a relocate utility polls traffic control signage the list goes on under the prior form of government the select board created the transportation advisory committee or Tac which was charged with advising the select board and the manager quote on all Transportation matters unquote that was in its charge its first meeting as Tac was in December of 2016 Tac was itself a successor by body to Prior committees including the Public Works committee the public transport bicycle and pedestrian committee and the Downtown parking working group to name three to guide its work Tac used the master plan from 2010 and reaffirmed in 2020 the Amis Transportation plan from 2015 the amoris bicycle and pedestrian Network plan which they helped shape in 2019 it also s Tac helped create a complete streets policy H which was adopted by the board and they also have developed crosswork design standards so they've accomplished a lot and done a lot since 2016 um and there are a fair number of documents out there already existing um that we don't want to lose track of um as we go through this process yet as we I think already have heard this morning during public comment and we certainly read and and heard from other sources in spite of the real work that this committee has done and the real contributions that has made to the town's Transportation Network the committee Tac feels the current process is inefficient it only provides Tac only provides input when requested by the council and as a result has little role to play they feel in many of the transportation issues that come up and so they feel sort of left out and um as we heard a few minutes before there is the sense at least from some on attac that a new approach is needed so um what's the problem well there's part of it right there we have a transportation advisory committee that um has a sense that they're really not being effective and they would like to see some changes um in addition is we' uh there's a general frustration among the public and some counselors about decision-making process when it comes to Transportation issues most commonly Road and sidewalk improvements but it covers a lot of areas people have questions about what the priorities are um how are improvements funded who makes the decision um there just seems to be generally an issue of of lack of transparency a sense of of clear and transparent processes that's one complaint one issue the second U no single obvious venue seems to exist where concerned residents can express concerns or make requests regarding Transportation issues again as we heard earlier this morning do they go to Tac do they go to DPW do they go to the town manager do they go to their Council reps do they go to the council as a whole um the lines of authority are um jumbled and again there's a lot of confusion about um who's who's in charge and where you should go to to get answers to the questions third consideration is what I call the time sync um a considerable amount of time Council time is taken up uh during our meetings on matters that seem at least to some of us relatively routine and could be handled more differently and perhaps more efficiently one classic example is utility poll placements but there are others um so there's the issue of time spent by the council that perhaps could be better spent and then there's I think also the issue of Staff time which is also a source of of a challenge or problem um basically that the staff is often required to attend multiple meetings on the same issue TSO Tac daac um the council itself um and so they're they're often finding they're doing the same thing over and over again um and there seems that doesn't seem to be very efficient use of their time or their expertise um and finally we have a fair large number I've just mentioned a number of them already excellent plans and studies addressing Transportation issues but there doesn't seem to be a single body that keeps them in focus and and looks to see whether they're being implemented and updated um the whole issue of vision and longrange planning so those are the five um uh reasons that I uh identified in reviewing the documents and thinking through this and in in our discussion in a moment we might want to add to this or at least comment on it maybe you don't share those concerns but those are the concerns that I've identified um from what I've read and from what I've heard um starting with tax dissatisfaction and then the whole issue of of of trying to provide greater transparency so people know what the rules are uh greater accountability so they know who's in charge and who they should talk to um a more efficient use of staff and councel time and a process that would involve ideally better longrange planning en visioning when it comes to transportation and and uh the public way so um that's enough for me um I would like to hear from you all um about your thoughts on that whether that resonates with you whether there are other U issues or concerns that should be added to this list or whether you even agree with it you might feel that there really isn't a problem that needs needs to be addressed so I want to open it up to discussion and input from um my colleagues so I guess uh go hands up and uh start with Bob yeah the the the George I I agree with pretty much everything you said the only question I have is will a creating this commission um really changed the way that Resident bring up issues I mean they're going to they're going to go to whoever they think is going to give them the answer they want um and or these are the people they're they're used to you know interacting with um and so um it would take some education upon you know the police you know the the DPW the council to forward these questions to say to the constituent yeah I see your problem but but I want to send it to this TPC because they're the ones who should who are going to deal with it um and I don't know whether that's going to be satisfactory to somebody who brings a problem to a counselor say or to the police so anyway your thoughts on that would be helpful I certainly think that that is going to take a fair amount of education and there's going to be um uh a period in which the confusion will will still continue to be the case but I feel um that having one place where these topics can all be raised and where everybody in the room uh is is is together um both the the residents the the uh uh the experts Etc um would go a long way to uh addressing these concerns I I think um I obviously I think there is a problem I think this is a good way to try to address it but you're right Bob it it's we're going to have to see how it plays out I think one thing to keep in mind is that what being proposed here is a change in policy so it's not written in stone it can be changed at any time the council can go back and revise it it's not like a bylaw um you know it's if we find something's not working or if we find that that something is is is is confused um it wouldn't be that difficult to go in and and alter the policy um it just would require a majority of counselors to agree that that's what should be done um so there's I think there's a fair amount of flexibility and uh in this approach um I do agree that it's going to to take a for amount of education and uh you know I'm not sure we'll be able to satisfy everybody but um and that's one of the questions maybe some of you feel that really you know most people aren't that concerned they're not you know they're perfectly satisfied with with going to their Council reps or going to DPW going to Paul and they get the answers they want um the sense I'm getting is that's not the case but that's just me Jennifer yeah okay thank you um so this is act uh very personal to me in my district I think I agree that utility polls street signs I mean even all the conversation we had recently about UMass signs into I don't think the council needs to be we should have bigger fish to fry than that so I'm I'm happy with certain you know those kinds of responsibilities being in a parking and Transportation Commission but I feel I'm very concerned and so I would certainly want to see counselor's repres presed probably two on this body if we go you know if we go to the commission but I am am very concerned I would not want my constituents I represent two precincts that you know are campus and downtown adjacent we have many parking and traffic issues and if I had to say to my constituents you know what I this is this is just not in my baileywick anymore I have to send you to this commission there may be nobody on the commission that has any connection to our district to really understand what's going on there so I can give two examples for 15 years there was an effort to make Sunset Elm and Lincoln particularly Lincoln no parking during the day during the school year on weekdays it took over 10 years to be able to achieve those restrictions and without the counselors before me started the process George represented the before the redistricting but without patting myself on the back but it was my job as the counselor for you know that District the former District three this was the last Council section session to really shepher those the adoption of those restrictions through the council and I spent a good part of the year the first year I was on the council making sure that happened and I saw with the select board and in previous Council sessions when this issue of parking restriction on Lincoln Lincoln is a two-way street it's the main access route from Northampton Road and Amy Street just for background for those of you are weing on the council the last session um there was on street parking there was literally bumper-to-bumper parking on linol from Cosby to amady street cars go there's a lot of traffic going and coming from UMass in the morning and later in the day traffic had to stop to let cars pass through because she couldn't have two-way parking with all the cars parked on on the street people couldn't get into their driveways people because they were parking over the curb cuts it was a nightmare and it took way too long to get parking restrictions we got them a year and a half ago it has been life altering for people that live on Sunset Lincoln and Elm and it it didn't cost the town anything nobody's the worst off because the 25 or so cars that used to park got there now have to park someplace else but it has changed life for people on the street and I would hate to I it would not be fair to the constituents to not have a counselor who could really Shepherd this through and when it would come before other bodies previously people would say oh well we're going to wait until we're looking at parking restrictions all over Amis we're just not going to focus on two or three streets and that is my concern for a commission that that's what they would be told if if they if res if it was that street specific that we' be told well why would we change you know have parking restrictions on one street and not the other and now on mlen I don't know if again I don't want to bore you with this but you know what we have in certain districts is mlen is probably as wide as many of your driveways it's a two-way street there's on street parking on one side it's tiny houses there's lots of infill so there's a lot of residents with two units and eight cars I've been counting the number of cars parked on the street during the day and there's like 67 on this Narrow Street it's also um permitted for the traffic school so there's parking lessons going on the street was built before there were Vehicles so all to say that in some neighborhoods you have very very Street specific issues that should not be just thrown to the bureaucracy so that is my concern that I feel like the the system we have now is not perfect but at least the residents have someone that can Champion very serious parking and traffic issues in specific neighborhoods so I I just need to as we move forward would need to be assured that there would still be that connection between the council representative and the neighborhood to the commission I'm I'm sorry for going on for so long yeah Andy if I just make make a quick Point um and I maybe in the end we'll just we'll just play it this way but I'm trying to get us to focus on just do you think there's a problem and I guess if I were to translate Jennifer's comments um yes there is a problem but her concern is that this may not be the there a concern that this may not be the right solution to the problem for those particular problems you know I think utility poll signage there's other things that would be appropriate for the commission so so we do have at some point we will have a discussion on the impact of this on councelor constituent relations and on the very question that youve raised so we'll come back for further discussion so if I could just ask the reason I went into all that is just so you all understand where I'm coming from in this conversation well some of us have very very long memories and but I agree with Bob and holla um certainly they they would not perhaps be quite as conversent as you and I and Andy are with this it did take up enormous amount of council time took up enormous amount of committee time and um that would be my concern um it got done it got done um I you know whether it would be done more efficiently or whether it would have been done under a new system is a fair question and that's something we need to discuss and it's noted and I'm I'm taking notes as we proceed through here but I appreciate your Indulgence all of you thank you yeah no I hear you it's an important issue Andy yeah I was interested if Guilford is uh listening in whether he can share with us from the staff perspective how the staff gets complaints uh from citizens about issues that are what we're talking about and um how the staff works together and tries to sort them out to present to elected bodies and if I may I'd like to hear from Guilford if he's willing to speak he certainly doesn't have to um but I'd also like to hear from him again related to the topic on hand does he see a problem is there a problem here that needs to be addressed that's kind of the focus of this first part of the discussion um a number of problems have been raised other concerns been raised and I'm curious if Guilford agrees or if he maybe we're missing some that could be added to this list or maybe he says you know um this is always a problem there no there's no solution anyway uh gilfred if you'd like to speak please do so you're not required to um I I'll jump on in on that this is always a problem um Jennifer brought up a a little small piece of time where there were complaints about Lincoln and sun that was my fourth time going through complaints of parking Lincoln Sunset NM changes been made throughout all four of those and proposed um so some of these things will just keep coming back and we've seen it it's not just linkoln and sunset that happens just about every year over by the high school towards the end of the school year when you actually have more drivers because as the school year goes on people more people turn 16 um the right of passage in America you get to drive to school which is cool get to take your friends to school it's cool um those come up every year too so there are things that will repeatedly come up um the system we have now provides no clear concise methodology for people to submit an issue and it get sent to where it needs to go um Public Works once once they start talking to counselors and the town manager we stop talking to the resident simple as that the resident has decided to exercise his right privilege whatever else you want to use for a word there um to talk to their counselor and town manager and when you guys start talking to them we're not going to step in and and step in the conversation we'll wait until we're asked so there is really um there really is need there really does need to be a systematic way of doing it we don't work well as a town in this as well because people will complain to different groups and then because the groups think they need to solve it and then we don't talk very well um we'll get different things and all of a sudden it'll get to a head and then we'll all come together um so we definitely some type of group that takes these in a staff person who can St this this process and pull together the information and pull together the comments from all the groups as needed um so that's my take on it I appreciate that and I guess since I was the one who asked for your comments I my concern about the proposal is the number of Staff who are suggested to be involved and you know we talk about wanting to be efficient and are we going to not how can we be efficient if we have a large number of Staff people working through a problem as opposed to one person working through and presenting presenting it to a larger group um has any thought been given to how that would work so that you don't have a an large number of Staff people taking their time to essentially work through the initial stages of what are the problem is there a problem and is there a solution right now we spend a lot of Staff time working through some of these um be because there's no methodology for it so we already do that um Northampton their committee has staff as well as the counselors and residents on their committee um theirs work seems to work very well um other communities have that same setup and it seems to work very well um I don't think it's we're gonna be spending time on it no matter what it just a process that goes through one person who can control not control but organize the process and keep the information flowing from the residents to the staff to the commit Comm members and so forth is is needed it's something that has to be done the license committee is the sole is the one sole group in ammer that functions that way right now and they function very right function well um that process functions well um and but yes you got we have to decide what goes here and what doesn't go here and then as time goes on you may change your mind and pull things out or push things into this group I was going to mention the board of license Commissioners as a model it's mentioned in the documents it's mentioned in what the town manager presented to us as and maybe at some point we would invite someone or someone from that body to come and talk to us about their experience because the uh the success of that body um and as a kind of model for the success of this body be interesting to hear from them directly how they have dealt with some of these questions and and how it works and what uh um you know what would be the best practices I think some of this would be have to be resolved by the body itself once it were formed there's there was a certain amount we can't um overdetermine this I think there's a fair amount we have to allow them to to figure out what um but I think we could certainly set up models and we could have a discussion um that would would perhaps benefit uh this body if it were created um Guilford what I am hearing is that you do think there is a problem particularly with staff time and with a Clarity I mean some of the the issues that I've raised in my present ation it sounds like you would pretty much nod your head and say yes this is this is a problem and um you would think that that we should try to see if we can find a better way this how what that better way will be finally we don't know but you would agree that this is something we should be spending some time on is that fair to say is that a reasonable summary yes I would say that okay Jennifer my screen went blank um Guilford were you finished or well I would just say you might want to also reach out to Northampton and talk to some of their members of their committee um and and they do have a staff person who is sort of the coordinator of the committee the the receiver and the disseminator of information she might be a person you might want to talk to and how how it functions and how that one works do you know what the department or at what her connection is rationally she reports through Public Works we can certainly track that down and yeah yeah I I uh I mean my observation um is that I think we're recognizing that there is a problem and U Jennifer your uh presentation was actually very instructive because um you talked about the role of the council but you also emphasized that there is a problem because it took an awfully long time to get a solution that worked right but I think it they needed an advocate so that's what I'm concerned I think if in that case I think if it stayed with the bureaucracy I don't know that it ever would have happened so that that's my concern so your question really is how will advocacy take place in this process um will it just go by the boards will it just become a bureaucratic kind of thing like you just often happens where you just you know put your name in or you you go before a body and then who knows what will happen um and if you want to Advocate how do you do that how does the counselor Advocate um and would that be appropriate given the system that we're thinking of creating that's a fair question okay yeah and I did have a question my hand was up about the board because I don't know the board of License Commission do residents do they really you know most of what I imagine comes before them is applications for business licenses and so are residents really going before that board I mean maybe you would if you had a concern about a business that was impacting you but so I'm just that's my question how much do individual residents really interact with the board of license Commissioners I I don't know if any of us have that answer yeah I I'll try and find that out I'll come back to the committee well or would should get uh some people from the board of license Commissioners in George was alluding to earlier so I don't know if there's further discussion that at this point we want to go into um what I said is I wanted to just lay out the history of this briefly and identify what I gathered where some of the the problems and concerns that have been raised by Tac um by the town manager as we've heard from Guilford from staff um and I think we've touched based on all of them there does seem to be a sense that there is um a problem that is worth our time to try and and and address um what that what the solution will look like is is is is the next question and so I was going to turn uh unless there's further comment or questions or discussion U the only thing I would add is if uh just for Tracy who's still in the attendee group Tracy if you have anything that you want to offer on the topic that's being discussed raise your hand so that we know and then Athea can bring you back so go ahead back to George then no good point Andy that it would be appropriate at this point Trac did yeah if she would weigh in that'd be great hi so um I don't really have much to add I mean I mean I think right George had posed the question of is there a problem and what's and there yes there is a problem um I do think that I mean the way I've seen other Transportation commissions work you know I've been talking to the town manager for the last few years and T and I both research like different commissions around the state um is that they really are a sounding board a place where resident concerns can be heard um so I do think that there is Ro for advocacy there too you know it's not just an internal because you will be having both residents and um staff on the committee like the residents can also serve an advocacy role you know it's not just something happening internally you know without the public so I'm I'm not as concerned as um Jennifer on that issue I mean I think that anything just like now right if people have concerns about a particular neighborhood like the current process we have it will go to the council it will go to TSO sometimes it will come to Tac or disability access committee we already have a process like where like the counselors who are concerned with this issue or their constituents like still need to weigh in at different points of the process and I would see that that would could be similar if you have a commission um and I mean I've seen commissions where basically their whole agenda is taking up all the different items that they've received comments or complaints or concerns about either from staff or from residents and that's what they spend their whole time on and residents are able to be heard at those and then the commission members consider it and then they decide what actions to take or whether they're going to follow up to the next meeting or so on so I think there is process that can work and I agree with Guilford that the Northampton commission is a good model thanks thank you Tracy okay so um again speak up or but um I put my finger we put our finger on an issue of of lack of transparency uh need for greater accountability more efficient use of of staff and councel time and something that hasn't been discussed maybe it come later but I think is important um uh better longrange planning envisioning I listed a whole host of plans that exist um and it doesn't seem to me that there is a single body that that tries to to keep them uh in focus and also go back occasionally and and ask the question well you know are we attending to this at all um there is a habit perhaps of longstanding amorous to you know spend a lot of time and money on plants and and they're very well done and they go on a shelf and that's where they stay and I think that another important factor I personally think is is the issue of visioning and longrange pl um so those are five and we have others we want to add but I'm getting the sense that people agree that these are worth these are issues that we need to address so the solution at least as as the town manager is proposing it is to create a body which would combine professional staff um uh um and along with residents and bring them into regular and direct conversation um and we'd assume that those residents would be people who have expressed some interest or have some background or and or some expertise in transportation related areas and the purpose of this body would be to make policy decisions on transportation and parking and review staff recommendations uh for changes to the public way and as we've already said the the board of license Commissioners is kind of the model and I think at some point we should invite um someone or some ones from that body to come and we also should reach out to Northampton uh board and also talk to them either by getting some kind of uh you know Memo from them or actually inviting them to come and talk if if they were up to that um but the next thing on my list and I don't know how we're doing for time Andy um it's now almost 11 um is to begin to turn to the question of scope um and uh I'm willing to do that if people are are want to continue with this or we could come back at some later time but the next question would be what actually is being proposed what changes are being proposed and in fact they're quite considerable um and I think we should get clear on that and uh so that would be the next step maybe before we do that we also should stop and think are you happy with um the sort of the the process as I've outlined it it sounds like you've had a chance to look at that memo and you you thought it looked good have you changed your mind um because besides scope um then there would be a series of topics that we would take up over the next few meetings and I just want to remind people that I'm looking for members of the committee to take the lead on some of these um I'm perfectly willing to do this for every single one but I think it would be healthier and and more productive if um individual members said well I'm willing to take on topic X Y or z um and uh so that's something to not to say right now but I think you should give some thought to whether you're willing to do that because um if no one does step forward um it falls to me to lead the discussion over the next couple weeks and I would prefer to to share that burden um if at all possible because you're you're just going to get my perspective um and uh I think my perspective is the best perspective but of course of course uh any thoughts on that any thoughts on I mean not I'm not asking people to volunteer now but I'd like you to give some thought to that are you happy I mean one thing that I did say that we should add to the list is actually reviewing the charge that should be added at some point we're going to have to go through the charge line by line um and uh probably at the end of this process but that's something it was missing from the original member Jennifer yeah no I think that's a good suggestion for committee members to volunteer to delve into and then present back and kind of lead the discussion on different topics so also the whole burden shouldn't fall to you yeah yeah but I do think that we've identified the that there is a problem and it needs to be address that this is not it's not efficient for members of the public it's not efficient for staff it's not efficient for uh the council and uh there's a lot of uh duplication and confusion that exists and said there anybody disagrees that that's where we've come to because we've a lot of questions that we've still identified but I think that we've agreed that there is a problem um why don't we hold scope for a minute for a few minutes and try and get see if we can get to some of the other agenda items um and uh then come back to it because I think that we do want to spend a couple minutes on the uh Southeast Street the two subtopics that are listed under five and um secondly the U at least start the discussion on the school safety zone issue um in would that be okay to make sure that we have enough time to get to those two other issues but I think we might have time to come back scope and within our usual a lot of time um the two issues under the Southeast Street um proposal that was put forward was that there was a list of comments and questions that had come from a variety of sources and I put it together in a single document and uh I think what we were planning to do was that we as a committee would see if there's anything that we wanted to add or delete from the list and um or whether we just want to forwarded as is and then um try and work with uh Paul and Guilford to set up a a meeting where we could then start to um hear some responses and suggestions about the topics that were there so uh question a 5A is uh does is the list seem like the right list can we adopt it Bob yeah I I I think it's the right list I mean I don't see anything left off of here but I do think it's kind of long and there's duplications on the list so I'd be willing to take a shot at consolidating these into you you know a fewer questions um so rather than having people I mean for example you know uh access to direct availability direct access from Main Street and bugtown roner are the same as I kind of raised in my comments too so I think if we could we consolidate these and make them so that where there's no duplication in the in the in the set I think it would benefit Gilford and and everybody else I think that our one experience of having done something similar was along those lines because um we had a lot of questions on one topic and then we reorganized them didn't eliminate the questions but grouped them together so that um we would know that they came from multiple sources um multiple count counselors but we uh tried to group them so that it would more be more efficient for everybody to address them um that's fair enough I mean if that's if you know I as I said I'm willing to take a shot at this Andy if you want me to I can do that and then you can kind of weigh in and see whether it hits the mark Or Not uh George yes yeah um I guess I have a question about the process how this is going to actually um whatever list of questions we finally agreed to I think this is fine I could be cut down a bit um but um we've got a great place to start from but um what what's next what what happens next I mean are we ready to talk about that maybe we want to just focus on the um the the list of questions um but uh uh what what what would be the next step or how how's this going to play out um a meeting a joint meeting at a particular time and place yeah I think inv the joint meeting um we've had a lot of comments and um the uh you know we've heard from um daac um in DAC concern is that um in-person meetings are difficult for them because of um getting to the meetings that they have a lot better participation because they can now that they can meet by Zoom than when they were um needing to frequently arrange special Transportation uh to get to meetings and then there's the other question is the timing of the meetings that um we seem to be getting into some difficulty because uh da uh Tac has uh members who are working of limited time and U they're having issues right now that were described during public comment by Tracy and uh so put the put it all together um the idea of an in-person meeting was uh well you know it's a good good suggestion but it's turning out to be a logistical challenge um I didn't I'm sorry I forgot to take my hand down but I'll I'll just weigh in and say um you know maybe a hybrid meeting would be the solution um you know we we can do that too have to ask Gil Guilford does whether um what you envision doing at an in-person meeting could be done at a hybrid meeting it could be done at a hybrid meeting um but it's just kind of hard to point at things on the screen and make things move and answer people's questions by pointing at the drawing on the screen um that's why I was recommending a more iners meeting but a hybrid could be both those who really have those who can make it would get the most information out of it and hopefully we can make things work for the others who are in the room or in the zoom room yeah I was trying to imagine is uh when you're doing a hybrid meeting whether you need to actually have um as you will a camera on the participants in the room especially if you're working with documents on paper there is no such to we may have to have a camera like we can show over them and show so we can show things to counc Ryan so who would be invited um it sounds like it would be uh daac um obviously the committee Guilford and any staff he felt would be appropriate um and Tac is that is that the list that is there and then it would there would be a period for public comment I assume um it it wouldn't be a hearing it wouldn't be in that format it would be basically a joint meeting of these bodies to go through uh the the issue and to get questions answered to get clarity and at some point in the meeting we would solicit public comment but it would be those four entities is that basically it yes I think that's be a good way to do it and it would be in the evening and how soon do we want to do this I mean I'm always advocate of doing things sooner rather than later because everything takes longer than than you ever can imagine but um and I'm not sure we can settle this right now but I don't we could at least begin to think about it is there anyone who wouldn't be available for an evening meeting we meet in the morning as a rule but this would be an evening meeting Ian I think evening probably be and and the point was also so we could sit around with maps and really so you like the idea of hybrid you like the idea of actually being as many of yeah it sounded like thought we could really see you know what different possibilities were it's like when the planning board for University they're actually meeting going over Maps right right so how soon do people feel this should be addressed is this um and I mean and also what day of the week does it matter is it um would it be a Thursday evening um Thurs evenings that could be an issue um but we could just do it on a week that doesn't have a go meeting um Tuesday evening does do people care yeah does T meet Thursday evenings uh it meets at 5:30 on a Thursday evening on Thursdays so we could try to align it with a tag meeting Tracy's yeah um hi somebody let me back in the room so Tac does meet we do meet on traditionally um on Thursday evenings and as George pointed out there is the go meeting that's now the 1 and the third Thursdays and then I believe the charter review commission has tentatively been meeting on the the other Thursdays when they start at 6 I mean so Tac has actually been looking it moving our meetings forward to make them earlier we do have a Tac meeting today and we will be discussing you know what might work for TAC in terms of coming to a joint meeting hybrid when it could be and so on um I do like the idea of a hybrid meeting I know it's it's hard to deliver it you know and make it as meaningful for people who are participating remotely Ely having participated in many hybrid meetings both as an attendee in the room and then also somebody who's trying to make sure that the remote attendees are accessing the session but it seem it seems really challenging just with like the disability access advisory members Tac and everybody to have just an in-person meeting only um you know and I have facilitated a lot of hybrid meetings I'm happy to help try to do that and as I said I mean I do anticipate that some Tac members would be able to attend in person um maybe we can move it earlier on a Thursday like four five I that's these are questions I am going to bring up attack tonight about what what is people's availability so I will have more information after that I think we're just going to have to poll members of all of the Committees and the staff to find out um where we have the largest number of attendance possible and just go forward um as far as timing is concerned um ultimately the question is are we going to try are we trying to um complete the work on Southeast Street whatever that work is before the school opens and do we still are we still assuming that school is going to be open despite uh the little snag that we have right now with actually accepting the contract um by September of 26 and what kind of timeline does that put in to get to a decision on this because I don't what we don't want to do is uh make it impossible for Guilford in the department to actually um do the work and um I think that the know um just came up the other day at uh District 5 meeting that Babin an had a little bit and uh I think that what some people tend to forget is that uh the automobile entrance to the school the way it is now designed by denisco is very close to Main Street and if we don't do anything and you have a number of people who are trying to make that left turn into the school you know if it's going to number people who during those times when people are trying to make the turn it's going to be tough um which is why we're having this discussion at all Jennifer so I guess this to Guilford so if a decision was made in the most timely way could that that work be done when the school opens or is it anticipating it won't start until closer to um right now the way things are lining up it wouldn't we could probably start construction but not finish construction by the time the school opens if the school stays on the schedule they posted but with the I mean if they get pushed off a year because of the con like um the bid protest that we would have a better chance of making the opening date if the construction is happening after the school new school is open will the entrance then be on Southeast in Main Street I mean if they can't enter from the front there'll be other accommodations made the the designers of the school have said they don't want to move the entrances we we we had a long talk about I mean even temporarily if you're working in the school's open if there's road work going what will happen then we would try to well our biggest constru season our best time for construction constructions in the summer so we would just try to figure fix everything in so that we're not really messing up the entrances during the school years school time and working mostly during the summer it would kind of be pushed that way okay thank you but it does seem to indicate that we need to make this process of as efficient as possible not toay George so yeah that was my question um we're looking at trying to set up a meeting in November is what I'm hearing um I mean it's not absolutely necessary but in other words to try and do this with relative speed if we can to get get the process started no reason not to um and uh so it sounds like we're looking for a hybrid joint meeting sometime in November um Trac is going to report back as to what Tac has to say um I don't have any problem with you know adjusting my schedule to meet tax um and uh JC has run hybrid meetings Gilford has done them um so it' be a matter of just again the logistics getting sorted out um but it some November is what we're aiming at is that fair to say I think so okay but I don't know it's obviously it's a joint decision but that my opinion is yes the there's uh benefits and not delaying okay um whether you know the the only re the major reason that I would delay is if Guilford or other staff say these are complicated issues and we need more time that would be a major reason not to do it in November um yeah I I was going to say that that that it depends I mean I'm I'm flexible um I can I think we should do this as soon as it's feasible but I don't want to put a timeline on it because I don't know how much work you know Guilford and his crew have to do in order to get ready for the meeting um and then um you know be able to answer the questions and all that so um I I don't think we need to put a timeline on it at this particular point but I do say as soon as as soon soon as it's feasible we should go ahead so I would think that uh what we should do and I I I don't want to put you on the spot right now guil is uh if you you know you have the questions and uh well we talked about reorganizing them to make it more efficient you know what the topics are so that there's no nothing going to be added it's just going to be made more efficient so how much time is needed to um have the meeting as you envision it and uh once you let us know that then and you can just let me know as chair and U then I'll go ahead and con send something out to the three committees um as far as uh trying to schedule so we think it should be as soon as possible because if people don't like the recommendation we have we have to start over again um so sooner is better the only issue I have is if you want me to bring in the designer who actually worked on it um I just need to give them a week or two a notice so they can make arrangements to be there or have someone else be there I think that would be helpful if it were possible um to have the the the the brains behind this and make their case and U if that were possible that'd be great I mean because there's lots of restrictions we put on ourselves because of what's been the restrictions have been placed on us in the past and we use those as as things we knew we couldn't do but if you guys if this decision is is no we don't like what you propose because of those constraints and we want to change those constraints then we have a a different ball game although we still have a if we're not going to if we're not going to move the driveways we're still we're still have the issues we have so yeah are the constraints you U like taking of taking Land from the common yes we've never been allowed to do it and we've always ran into problems when we do it so that was the biggest constraint we have is not widening the road and trying to keep things as narrow as possible and only take from the common where we actually had to um the other issue is is that the we because we weren't buying additional land or moving the driveway to the center of the center of the block which we were told early on by the designers they didn't have any money to do that we ended up with the two driveways separated like they are um and the designers of the school don't want to change and purchase the property now there might be funds available yeah the um I mean I've thought about the question of uh taking some of the common to make us to make a turning lane for example um so that but you still have a tremendous problem because of the closeness of the main street to the point where people would make the turn there aren't that many cars you could stack up that's correct and and you end up the turn the turn lane is not what you're really adding you're going to add a through lane from Main Street to College Street is what you're going to add that' be a complete Lane that runs the whole length of the common and using whatever that Street's called to to the West I mean could that possibly I maybe it was um Bob's suggestion about having a one-way Street does that doing you know and then the forgetting what that's called the street to the West I think it's old Southeast Street old Southeast okay um actually uh interesting interesting comment on if you look up this the street names and the old books East Street is what's in front of the school and the old side the section from Main to College Street was called East Street and the Southeast Street went from College south and the Northeast Street went from Maine north so just a so East Street and Southeast they were two different names we know we're talking about however so but people have kind of people have kind of forgotten that old time stuff so I was I I just told you a cute little thing to know in a bar if you want to talk about it over a drink um so that's why they call it the East Street School yes and it's the East Street common not soueast Street common not the Southeast Street common yes thank you that's helpful uh but like I said it's only good for bar talk and stuff like that so yeah so what happened this may be a problem that could be best solved in a bar it might be um yeah what really does happen is is you don't have enough room for stacking and you don't have enough room because you have the two entrances you need stacking at both entrances and you need to have um the ability to exit and not interfere with traffic so that you end up basically at the minimum if you want to do it with conventional intersections you end up with three lanes two straight lanes and a center turn lane which alternates which which direction you turn or which group is to use the turn lane so that really is what happens um but you end up adding a 12 to 14 foot more pavement on the common side but don't we an ADD problem because the common doesn't go all the way to College Street so that it actually does it just Narrows down at College Street but there's enough room there to put the lane in oh there is okay so uh we know what the problem is but back to the question uh we'll try and get the I think that I'm G to just have to work with Guilford and Paul Athena to try and figure out how quickly we can schedule this and U if we reorganize the questions fine but we know what the questions are and uh we'll keep going with the our contacts with the other commit commes and try and see what we can do with hybrid and Tracy uh thank you for offering your experience with it and I think that the idea of kind of uh people who do logistics for the planning board meeting s seeing how th those work when they do them as hybrid meetings getting their experience will be helpful too so I think we have the basically the answers to those questions um the school safety zone issue is something that's been added to our list and it's not a simple matter um and I think that the question that um I hadn't expect to Gilford who's really getting a lot today um is to whether the um whether you have any thoughts as to uh whether a school Zone around the high school is feasible whe and what it would take to get an answer to the question of whether uh school zones have to abut under current law does it is that something that mdl can answer can you answer it on just on from your own knowledge uh how do we go about getting a resolution to that kind of a question so for the schools zones yes they they prefer that it be there I believe the wording is should not shall when you read the manual for uniform traffic control devices they say words like shall should and May and they all have a different meaning um shall means that they're pretty it's a pretty hard and fast rule but you can with an engineering study and with a good reason you can disregard it um so so we can make this work um the the bigger the bigger issue is is that do you want to do when you do the middle school it's easy it's just Chestnut Street boom there's enough Frontage on Chestnut Street Middle School is easy High School there's actually two entrances you're talking about so would you put one on triangle at the exit and on matun street at the entrance and if you wanted to move the maton street one into over to Triangle Street that's a harder that's a harder justification but justifying putting it at mune is easier but then that doesn't really give you as much visibility as you have with the exit the exit can definitely have a school zone there um although the rule about property is a little issue but not a big issue but triangle Street you could have at the exit but then the entrance is kind of a little bit of a problem for the high school I hope I made sense I don't have a map yeah um in the process if we wanted to go forward with it um would be that uh either you a staff or a consultant would have to develop a plan this this is pretty easy this we would just we' do this inhouse um Jason I got Jason working on already so we we um so that's the only issue well if Jason's working on it I think that answers the a lot of our questions as to how we go because um I did share the Fort River work that Jason did in the maps were that he did for that and obviously that made it all very easy to make the rest of the process happen George so at the council discussion um there was considerable pressure and we almost did make a decision to just sort of do this and it would have landed on guilford's desk and maybe that would have been the easiest simplest way um but in the end the majority prevailed uh saying that we should we should follow our usual process um and so at the moment the only thing that that in my mind is the role of the school superintendent and Consulting the school um if that is I assume it's needed um it seemed like it was at at the council meeting um and is there so that's something we're going to need to do um maybe it's just a matter of reaching out and getting a memo or getting some kind of just maybe we don't need to have anyone come and talk to us um but what else if anything else needs to be done to move this along u sounds like Jason's already working on it Gilford has a pretty good idea what's going to be required um what other pieces are we missing um since we said we want to follow the process I guess the question is what is the process I think that the problem that we need also recognizes that they're really uh a series of issues it got lumped together in one piece and I think that's what made it so difficult at the council meeting because extend you know changing this um zone for uh times for elementary schools which was what was raised by that Fort River group of kids that came in and talked to the council and talked to this committee that's what their the their initial issue was because they were thinking of it from the elementary school think that's a very separate question from whether you establish it Zone at the high school and the hours of the high school and the and then you had the same thing all over again with the Middle School um is there really a problem um you know people threw in the middle school but is there really a problem that that many people walk um into the middle school and uh what will um a school safety zone add this chest there's already a four-way stop people don't buzz through there the way they Buzz through triangle Street and one other thing that that um we should all recognize is is that uh we actually already voted money to uh do crosswalks on triangle Street I think in the uh Capital Improvement plan so that um you could do the crosswalk it's the qu the question of the schools Z is to get the speed control so I guess my question Andy is then how do we proceed um and maybe we'll have to come back and deal with this but I just like to have a clear sense of what we think the process should be um I know that at least some counselors um feel this should be done sooner rather than later um there's some sense of haste um my argument was that yes this is something we should do sooner rather than later but we need to follow the process um so I'd like to have a clear sense of what the process is and um what are the next steps for us as a committee and what we think the timeline will be um that's kind of where I'm at and you you're identifying a number of issues that are you know and some not yeah that we need to need to be addressed middle school high school elementary school times um con contact with the school super um just maybe we can't do it right now but I'd like us to sort of think it through and and clear on what the process is going to be yeah I come back to that in a minute but Jennifer oh no I just want to ask Gilford um you had mentioned there was an issue I think on um triangle street with uh whether the land the property that abuts the street is that what you were referring to whether that belongs to the school yes I'm I I would actually just call it Municipal property and just lump it in as school area but then when you get to when you get to where triangle matun come together um do that's there's not a lot of property there that's it's it's just kind of iffy if that really is where you want the second school zone to be or if you want to make the school zone across the whole front there between matun and the exit to the high school which I guess we we'll look at it but it's going to be and then we we will reach out to the school to ask them what their preferred times are um knowing what's been going on we would reach out and say this is what people were proposing what do you want what would you throw in for times so Andy you had brought up kind of as an aside maybe during the break in the council meeting that since the field which is what abuts the street is Municipal not part of the school district is there a requirement for a school zone that it has to abut school property or is that something could get around since it's Municipal property that's the field I think we can get around it that way but then the the question I mean the school property comes pretty close at the exit but it doesn't come anywhere close to that intersection with matun at the entrance but it's not a problem at the south at the West End by triangle street it's it's not a problem at the exit at triangle Street triangle Street which is yeah okay thank you I thought I thought the concern was also at that end but I would hate to think that just because the field is Municipal and not school that that was really an obstacle that yeah the school actually so bureaucratic the school actually doesn't even touch the triangle street right so that was the question could could it be a school zone I hope it can but can it be if it's not adjacent to school property because I think that's part of the requirement yes and I'm pretty okay with saying and Jason and I talked about it I'm okay with saying that it is Municipal property and supports the school and we can put the schools on at the exit um the difficulty is the difficulty is the entrance because it's is there any uh way of gauging how many people walk to the school and cross at various points where are the points that we need the crosswalks um we would have to we would have to put somebody out there at the Times people go to school and just do a a physical count we don't have the ability to do a remote count so that's part of the information that's needed I think Jason would need that in order to really come up with an effective design we uh we've talked about that too how to do it so we would probably it would probably just be a count pick some days and do some counts but right now they there's nobody who crosses at maton Street I see hold on I need my map there there's no crosswalk at the um at the exit from the school you have to go down the prey the exit to the school I guess I this is where I really needed drawing more than anything well that's yeah that's what I wanted to just make the point if I'm understanding what I'm hearing here um what we're doing now is we're waiting to Guilford will come to us at some point with a plan with maps and with answers to our questions and we will look at it we will ask them questions and then hopefully we will sign off on it but there is no other role for us he he will reach out to the school superintendent he will make the connection with the schools he will do his you know usual excellent job and then he'll bring it to us and say okay here's what we propose and it doesn't seem like there's any role for us at this Point other than waiting for Gilford to come back to us with a proposal is that is that an accurate statement and if that's the case then that answers my process question and then I just need to be patient which I'm not by nature but that's all right I also I can do is off for my own experience from Fort River when I was on the select board and uh question it came up because uh the principal at that time at Fort River felt there was a real need for schoolone there and uh Jason developed a proposal uh selectboard knew that Jason was developing a proposal but we didn't do anything didn't talk about it really at all until he actually submitted a proposal which I put in the packet and uh that point the discussion was uh pretty brief that's that's what I'm that's what I'm expecting motion that was uh approved I threw in that into the packet too just to give you the complete picture but um you know I I credit uh Jason's work for uh moving from the complaint from the principal of Fort River School to the completion of the process that you know just sort of went smoothly um and it was approp it got to the kind of motion that uh councelor hanii wanted which was exactly what changes are we approving to the public way as opposed to we want to make changes the public way go ahead and do them and I think that's what her objection was yeah I yeah I have to agree I did not understand the logic of that um but the other councilors obviously didn't agree with me but yeah let's go ahead make some changes and you know whatever you want and it's like no we need to see a map at least something um and it sounds like that what will come to us hopefully sooner rather than later but guilford's got on his plate and then we can move forward but we have no role to play at this point um and which is good and uh so good yeah so I can uh just write a report draft back and everybody Guilford always sees the report draft also and see if uh you know I I think that um our counselors who were the original Advocates will be happy that we are moving along in the question of what hours are appropriate for adjusted hours for elementary schools really we need to hear from um people in the schools Trace you you can you're welcome to raise your hand oh sure go ahead so um yeah I've been listening in I appreciate the discussion it's great that you'll reach out to the schools or the Guilford will um we do have a member of the transportation advisory committee who's been in close touch with the schools you know she's the tax safe roots to school lead um and we've had many conversations with different School ad administrators over the year um so I know when Doug um Slaughter was standing as the interm superintendent we did reach out to him then and um he said that he was going to follow up with the town manager at that time but then there were lots of other things going on with the schools and I think he also is probably you know deferring to the new superintendent um there is our saiso lead does have a meeting scheduled with the new superintendent for next week and um she can bring up this issue too but the schools are generally supportive and um so that's good and I will say too I'm a little confused about the question about I mean my understanding from talking with the council sponsors is that this school zone proposal that went to the council is just for the middle school and high school school zones both to create those school zones and to decide what hours they will be um implemented for and a couple times and um Andy you've done it in terms terms of the elementary schools and those times too I mean I think that there are questions about that and in discussions with the council sponsors you know that was discussed but this was considered like Standalone in terms of look at the middle school and high school because we do not have school zones there currently and then I think it would be great if Tso and the council do look if it needs to go back to the council about the times for the elementary schools which is what the Elementary School parent um Jeremy Anderson you know whose child goes to Fort River has been advocating for and that was why he made that original request to jcpc about like speed management with the elementary schools but I see those as two different things so I hope that we can move the town can move forward with the middle school and high school school zones first and then go and revisit the elementary school hours separately and um and that should be you know that's an important discussion to have as well because it does seem like those should potentially be extended thanks yeah um I mean I read the reading the memo was a question then of how the memo is written because I read it as extending hours of school zone of s the school zones and I didn't separate out because we already have existing school zones expanding is expanding um but in any event we recognize that there's a series of separate issues and I we can move on them separately and actually the uh because you don't have to go through quite the whole process you could expand you could expand say the hours I think the police department um Chief Ting what he has thought say about that is important too George so again just back to are we asking Guilford to take on both of these or we just asking him to focus on the middle school and high school issue and that's what he's going to report back to us on and that's what we're going to we're going to look at and and and and comment on and this other issue um is is separate and it's not something we're expecting ilford to weigh in on or have anything to do with at this time is that is that correct or am I you know I don't mind asking about all the schools and putting it together as one big change I would I would like that I would prefer that but yeah um I just want to make sure that's the expectation of the committee um and that that's what kilford is expecting so that when he comes back to us we're not going to go well hey what about X well um so what we're hoping to get then is is really the whole package yeah um all right and do we need to do anything on our end to expedite that and what I'm hearing is the answer is no but maybe I'm Miss I think the answer is no I think that we've had the the kind ' kind of resolved that in a way guilford's already has staff as Jason working on it um the implementation is easy to just readjust the light the time that the lights flash if you expand the school zone for an elementary school where the they already exist and um so the the more challenging piece is getting the design for the high school in place and uh also Guilford might ask the superintendent the question as to whether we really need to do anything for the middle school is there anything else to be said um it is now uh quarter 12 so I'm not sure that it's worth getting back to scope today plus you had anything you wanted to say that would be really a quick introduction to what you intended in the discussion I think just by way of I mean I will I've already sent everybody a document that hopefully will be helpful maybe it won't um to sort of highlight what changes are being made and what's what's changing and what isn't and my initial reading of it is is that um that when the dust settles if this proposal goes forward as it's being presented um there isn't going to be a whole lot left for the council to do um related to the public way um which you know from my perspective speaking for myself I think is probably a good thing but I think that people should be really think hard about that and and look at the document that's that that will be in the packet for next time and that I've already sent you um as a pre Preamble or Prelude um listing what is changing and what isn't um when I finally at the end of that document um looked at what was left for the council um if I can find it quickly I think I can um what I found was essentially the council would retain acceptance of public ways that would not change the council would control any long-term uses or alterations of the Town Commons long term and the council would retain some control over placement of flags and Banners other than those specified so it's really um quite striking um and whether that's a good thing or bad thing is something we're going to discuss but that was what I took away and when you look through it you want to see if that's what you took away um and that I got it right um I think I did but I I'm I'm not sure and I um hope that all uh be able to participate in this too when we first talked about this issue she and I were had a little bit of a uh dialogue going on during a meeting in which uh we were trying to suggest that there should be a distinction between a significant change to a public way that um is you know a streets are and how streets are laid out or regulated and that that should be a recommendation made by the um New commission to the council as opposed to what the commission can enact on its own and U I give I mean class the the next you know the two examples that we can do most easily are ones that we're going to deal with now or very soon and that is Southeast Street and uh the amate street University Drive and I don't Envision necessarily that the council needs to say that that kind of change shouldn't still be a council decision with recommendation from the commission that's that's a topic that I thought we were going to discuss and so that is a scope question Al did you want to add so I think Jennifer has a hand up yeah Jennifer yeah and another would be under the scope I mean there's probably others but something like a new park a municipal parking structure that's I think that kind of decision needs to stay with the council you know perhaps the commission would have recommendations but I think um a decision of that magnitude should also be with the council and I did want to get back to what I said I mean I don't think like the way Lincoln Sunset and Elm played out and maybe you know there maybe some decisions have to be made on with regard to parking on restrictions on Cosby I that isn't the ideal situation for a counselor to have to perhaps take that on and that be sort of a project and user it through but my concern is just that what comes out at the end with a traffic traffic and parking commission is that it not be adding to the bureaucracy but be something that would help would would be allow for public participation and decisions to be made without it you know again just where we have to say to our constituents uh you have to go to this big entity and take that on yourself so when we say streamlining I mean hopefully it'll be more inclusive and a more efficient process but um so I hope it would be an improvement on having to rely exclusively you know on having someone Perhaps Perhaps the way what happened on Lincoln and Sunset and Elm which took so many many years more than a decade I hope that this commission would be an improvement on it and not just add to the bureaucracy to so that's my concern that we're just that we not be doing that creating more bureaucracy that moves even more slowly but the final decision I think what we're talking about with scope is who's making the final decision then uh if you're going to say that there's been parking allowed on Lincoln and you're no longer going to allow parking on Lincoln or at certain hours we still have parking whatever it doesn't matter who's the authority who the authority final Authority lies still with the council to make the final decision after a recommendation from the commission or does the commission enact that on its own another example uh going back to Dusty past is when we changed a lot of the parking rules as far as uh the number of hours people can um Park in the in the downtown area the 2hour limit in certain sections that are the highest demand that was made by elected officials it was not made by a commission should that kind of a decision be made so there are other things that was a hot issue so again my my observation is and we'll see what all of you make of it is that um this proposal takes an enormous amount of discretion away from the council and places it in the hands of the TPC whether that's good thing or bad thing I'm leaving for another day but my observation is that it does in fact remove an enormous amount of what previously was under the purview of the council to a um bureaucratic entity and so when we talk next time I assume the next meeting will take up scope and maybe we'll take up one other topic I don't know but scope would be the next one and when you look at this document see if you have the same impression I do that um that's what's happening and then we'll talk about whether we think that's a good thing or bad thing etc etc okay um I don't think there's much else to say anybody else on November 7th I don't have it on my calendar when we meet again oh we don't meet till the 14th of November is that is that true oh see yeah now I have to give my y I got one somewhere let's see if I uh we're talking October 24th no that's that's today thank you I have our next meeting on not till November 14th is that that is correct November November I actually I have one for November 7th as well I don't know why we have two in 14 well the 28th is is Thanksgiving Thanksgiving so maybe we are meeting so we're meeting the sth and the 14th so we're meeting I think that's right that is what it says yeah okay thank you I didn't put it on my calendar on the sth we don't have to do that no no we should we have a lot to do okay um Athena you um question for you is uh do you think that uh Paul would welcome us uh taking up the town manager appointment or do you advise that we postpone it's a reappointment and I does uh M gerts continue to serve on the committee if it meets before if we delay I did hear from Paul he said that he's sorry that he couldn't join the meeting today it is a reappointment if there are questions you can postpone action otherwise um you can make a recommendation that the memo should be sufficient there are specific questions um what's the committee's will on this I have no specific questions yeah none none here same here yeah see my problem is that quite honestly Steve CTS is a neighbor of ours and so I know him quite well and um puts me in a different position so that's why I was turning to the rest of you I would recommend it of course because I know him so I think we should just move ahead unless there's a sense that okay so um if uh that's the uh will then I would like to make a motion to recommend that the Town Council approve the reappointment of stepen Curts to the water supply protection committee for turn to expire on June 30 2027 ni second motions been made the seconded so we just proceed to a vote uh Bob I Council Lord I uh Council Ryan hi Jennifer yes and I'm a yes so it's 5 to zero and uh motion is passed we've made that recommendation um the last thing we're going to do quickly and so that we can get out within our two-hour limit um is uh next meeting um in topics and uh I think that uh Bob you had something you wanted to suggest as a topic yeah I suggest we uh we we revisit uh the traffic circles or the mini circles mini roundabouts on Heatherstone Road I um observed the situation as it is right now as of yesterday morning and it there are some problems that are that need to be addressed so I think it's important for us to take a look at what's going on there and I would encourage every member of this committee to go and see for themselves uh I went around 8:00 in the morning when the buses the school buses were running and the garbage trucks were moving and and so I saw quite a bit thank you and thank you for telling us what time to go okay so we will uh put that on the um agenda and U I know that Guilford is probably listening in doesn't need to talk about this issue because it's not on the agenda for today but um we will put it on agenda possibly um if possible at the next meeting anything else Council Ryan so I'm assuming that scope would be the next topic and that that would be on the next agenda and um that's a question not a statement but um and uh if other members of the committee would like to volunteer through to Andy reach out in the next couple days and say you know I'd be interested in presenting y z um that would be helpful um I don't know if we want to add anything more than that um for next time but um I guess composition I don't know but scope definitely I think we should take up yeah um my suggestion one other um question is uh we did say we would get back to waste huler as soon as there's a recommendation from the town manager and he said it would be at a no member meeting so um I just want to remind you as I'm arranging the agenda I'm sort of trying to do my best to juggle all of the different topics that we're dealing with right now U so I will consult with the town manager about uh what he recommends for timeline too anything else I have nothing else to consider for unexpected business so um I guess I would take motion to adjourn I move to adjourn I second okay the motion been made and seconded Bob hi Council Lord hi Council Ryan hi Jennifer yes and I'm yes so it's 5 to zero thank you very much thank you be very rich meeting thank you George