all right it says it started yep excellent hi everyone so today it's the TAC meeting July 11th we have a quorum of members here I'll just do a roll call just so that Amber will have it for her notes and Amber's about to sign off so please and thank you Tracy is here and does everybody else want to Chris Tim Trembley Joe Fuso all right and we are also joined by Jason skills and the town manager Paul bachan so um I will just read the quick little language about remote meetings it says pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 2022 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting May do so via Zoom or t phone no in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access a proceedings in real time so um typically if we do have attendees in the meeting we allow them to come come in as panelist similar to what we would do if we were meeting in person um we don't have anybody in the waiting room today so okay all right so um it sounds like that we going to go ahead and talk about the West Street improvements first um and Jason skills is here and he can summarize those FRS and we can ask questions give some feedback um TSO did ask for our feedback prior to the next meeting though maybe that's changed now that they're not discussing Transportation at that meeting um and then after that we'll move on to talk to the town manager about the Transportation Commission charge so all right Jason okay um I'm going to share my screen and I'll share the plans that were included in the bid package um there's share screen there it is 's see there it is that can everybody see West Street roadway widening and bus pull-offs yes okay so just for location sakes it's it's on a little section of West Street's ni nuts zoom in here we go it's on oops Tiny Little section of West Street between oh come on stop jumping around on me sorry about that um there we go so between pot wine Lane and Long Meadow Drive there's an existing bus pull off over there but there's not there's only sidewalk on one side it's kind of has some conflicts with the entrance to uh potline Lane here I'll go to existing condition sheet this is the existing conditions sheet here and so the existing it's hard to see I apologize the black and white is really gred out so the Northbound pulloff is right here just after pop wine Lane and it's barely a pulloff it's basically a breakdown Lane um it doesn't provide a whole lot of space maybe a little bit more than just bik Lane but but not much and the southbound bus pull off is directly across from pop line lane there is existing sidewalk on this west side of the street from all the way from Long Meadow all the way down to Hampshire college but there's no sidewalk on the pot wine side and so depending on where you're coming from and going to you have to make a slightly risky cross to get over to one bus stop or if you get dropped off on one side you're crossing without a crosswalk to get to the other side so we had you know just a couple of Resident complaints that sort of that you know honed Us in on this and and P GTA also kind of pointed to it and said hey can you guys help us out with a you know a solution for this problem so so we started looking at it and uh started uh started playing with a whole bunch of different options and I think what we ended up with is uh it's a pretty good compromise of uh best case scenarios and where it fits and where the grading works the best and we also had to maneuver around utility polls uh every Source was very helpful in removing uh one of the or they haven't done it yet but they will be removing one of the utility poles and uh Barry Roberts who owns the former camel Hassan's furniture store which is now a Veterinary Clinic um was also very Cooperative in allowing us to help because the the the service his power service comes off the pole we want to remove so between every source and Barry Roberts it worked out really nice to to figure out um how to how to move the pole how to reconfigure everything and and where to find the best place for a new bus pull off so this is actually I might just go to the rendering um where do I I'm gonna just yeah I'm gonna go to the color rendering because it's a little easier to read it's just missing it was done earlier so it's just missing a couple of things but I'll jump back and forth between the PDF and the cad plan um so here's the rendering and this is just easier to read because it's not just pure black and white so we've got the entrance to potline Lane um we're proposing so in if you're heading in the Northbound direction we're proposing this splitter Island um where the exist the existing bus pulloff over here will disappear we're going to run a five foot wide sidewalk from pot wine lane behind the utility poles all the way up to this is the new location of the bus pulloff the proposed new bus pulloff we had to remove a utility pole here that's the one that eversource agreed to relocate they're going to put it over here and then they'll feed the overhead power to Barry's Vet Clinic over here um so that was the poll we had to have get moved and then there's Sidewalk Ends Here at another splitter island with a crosswalk over to Long Meadow Drive and all these ramps get redone for ADA compliance and all the all all that sort of stuff uh we do have some proposed trees in here that'll have to come later with you know Allen Snow's tree planting plans um they're not they're not in the budget currently but it would be nice if we could add them and this this uh southbound bus pulloff gets added right here in front of this house uh house number 685 so just two houses down from Long Meadow so both bus pull-offs move a little closer to Long Meadow um and they're about now they're about halfway between Long Meadow and and potline so it's kind of a compromise for both neighborhoods um and right in the middle we get a sidewalk on both sides so it's nice and easy and you get a crosswalk at each end uh after the bus pull-offs with a splitter Island and we're proposing the um rapid uh flashing beacons rectangular rapid flashing beacons for both pairs of crosswalks so yeah we've got the splitter Islands to calm traffic hopefully we've got the beacons for pedestrian activ ation and and visibility um and sidewalks on both sides relocated bus pull-offs um there's a lot of fill that has to go on down in here because it's a pretty steep drop off from the road down to this uh there's a horse faster down here um but that is the majority of it um we have enough room for 5 foot bike Lanes we're going down to we're going to narrow the travel Lanes to encourage slower speed s and uh what else I think I think at this point I need to switch back over to the black and white plans and go to some of the more detailed drawings because we also added the um green bike Lanes at both of the street Crossings so we're going to do the green bike lane across pot wine and the green bike lane dashed bike lane at Long Meadow and I'll let me switch back to the black and white PDFs here and so and I'll zoom in oops switching pages instead of zooming so you can see here at the Long Meadow Crossing we're going to do the green dashes they're about two feet wide reflectorized green the standard bike lane green um for both of these bike lane Crossings we figure that'll help make the road feel narrow because we're still pretty you know we're going to going to be pretty wide and if the bike lanes are just painted white we feel like the cars are just going to sweep right around at their 55 mph cruising speed because they're coming off of a 50 m hour Zone um from between Hampshire college and here is is one of our only 50 m hour zones in town so yeah we've got the splitter Islands um this just this is just a slightly more detailed plan it shows um all the lane widths the side walk uh another splitter Island and it's 20 scale so it unfortunately cuts the plan in half I have to flip to here to show and here's the pot wine entrance with the bike lane painted across the entrance to pot wine um the 10 and a half foot travel Lane to really neck down and make you feel constricted and slow people down with the splitter Islands the splitter islands are actually there's a really good detail of the splitter Islands I'll go to that next um and feel free to stop me if anybody has any questions because I'm kind of rambling um this is the north raised splitter Island detail um and that just gives you a little bit more there's the RFB pa uh bases um eight foot wide sidewalk on one side this side is only six foot wide and narrows to five at other spots um then you've got this is the SP litter Island detail at pot wine the South End um very similar setup sloped Granite curbing uh stamped concrete Cobble in the center uh dyed gray um I think that covers I think most of it oh this is another good plan this is kind of the striping and sign plan um that gives you a pretty a good idea of you know the the basic layout from pop line to to Long Meadow there um and I guess I'll stop there and entertain questions comments concerns sure okay thank you does anybody have any comments questions concerns yeah so what happens at the um the bus stop specifically like is that area I'm I guess I'm kind of missing it I I mean overall I'm excited I really love the traffic calming measures I guess I'm just trying to figure out like where are you standing and is it lit at night um you know if you're actually waiting for the bus um I think can't remember if we've talked to pbta about this or not I don't think they said there's enough ridership to Warrant uh an actual shelter um they have certain thresholds for ridership that triggers whether they think a shelter is needed or not got it and we've accidentally planned pled some concrete pads in places where they're like no there's not enough Riders so we learned to get ahead of that and so here let me um I mean then I think a lot of the traffic there too I mean right there it's like the soccer fields and stuff I mean it doesn't seem as though that east side of the street is as busy at night um right so so is the crosswalk on the east side is going to run from pot wine to the bus stop is that right uh just run if we keep them away from the bus pull-offs because we don't want so here's let's see no no I meant the sidewalk the sidewalk on thew yeah because there as you said there's currently no sidewalk there now right right that's going to be behind the utility poles there's a street light at pot wine and there's a street light at Long Meadow and then also um Barry Robert's property is pretty well lit up with two street lights okay uh in this parking lot over here there two street lights they kind of Point towards the building but they do uh share some illumination so the bus the new bus northbound bus pulloff is going to be right here we've got a 9ine foot wide bus pull off we're adding a curb uh we widen the sidewalk to eight foot there for ADA compliance because they need an 8 foot uh discharge from the handicap bus uh we do the 4inch curb reveal because the kneeling buses scraped if it's a 6-in curb um so this is the northbound bus pull off we're kind of we're kind of using the two driveway entrances here as the tapers to get the bus in and get the bus out because that kind of just gives us extra length to get the bus in and out uh we're hopeful that the bus doesn't block the driveways each time and that they can fit in between um and then the southbound bus pull off is sorry where where did I lose it oh sorry so the southbound bus pull off is right down here and we're really tight to the RightWay here this this dark line here is the RightWay line um so we can just barely fit an 8 foot walkway 7 foot bus pull off and five and a half foot bike lane and in this case it's kind of becomes the bus shares the bike lane a little bit when it's there sure not ideal but we're you know working with the right way that we have so in the two crosswalks then are at the splitter islands is that right yeah yeah we put the two crosswalks with the safety splitter Island it's a it's a six foot wide splitter Island so it's a Bonafide uh what do you call it a a rest not rest area uh there's a name for it I'm blanking ref Refuge Refuge Island thank you yeah so it's a a Bonafide Refuge Island you can technically a wheelchair can technically stop there and wait for traffic to clear and then go hopefully they don't have to with the rfbs going but can you can you just um just make this drawing just smaller so it all fits on one zoom out to the full okay yeah just so we can see yeah get a better idea so now if somebody is taking so just in terms of the lighting around there so if somebody is taking the bus southbound so is the light at pot wine on the pot wine side of the street yeah the pole is I think the Po's right here somewhere I don't I think they're turned off on this actual plan but yeah the PO right on the corner of pot line so just like if somebody is waiting say it's like later because because you do have um Butternut Farms you know in Long Meadow and so if somebody came out from Butternut farms and was going to go southbound and they're waiting on the side of the street like it wouldn't necessarily be as light I mean I I mean I think the rfbs are great I think the splitter islands are great I just know personally like I mean I've been downtown sometimes even with the rfbs flashing as I'm crossing the street and still had cars come very close to me while I'm in the middle of crossing right so it's just it's it just seems like it's always helpful to illuminate pbta will probably put up their uh solar powered oh sure things at the actual bus stops schedules and the solar power okay that helps too not super bright but it's a place to stand and have a little bit of light yeah I mean certainly it's a huge improvement from improv nothing that's there right now which is just and there's no C I mean currently there are no I mean this is something that's come off a I mean many several years ago we had um a few people come I me I think we had a forum about this a public forum um and this certainly alleviates many many many of the concerns because mostly people were worried about crossing the street that's that was the main concern well I think with the bus stops right so I mean it's pretty clear right if somebody gets off the bus and they need to cross the street and there's no crosswalk they'll still cross good to like channel that and then have the splitter islands for the and also yeah decreasing the speed right there that was another consideration because at one point we had discussed um like mini roundabouts there at poine essentially as a traffic calming measure many years ago I mean something needs to be done about calming traffic there particular with the number of people that are trying to access the buses so I mean this is huge one of the cool part one of the cool Parts about this design is that we can still do that roundabout at potline that's the Shifting the bus stops all to the north right was an intentional sort of oh we could still we can so we could in the longterm future go forward with a roundabout there but right see this is kind of you know this kind of gives you an entrance to the South dammer village where next next up is the roundabout you know it's kind of almost an extension of that yeah Village Center Traffic no no it's nice and it's FR exciting to hear that um you're going to do the green painted bike Lanes you know at the intersection because that's come up before I know I think we were asking about that at on belter toown road and just other places to have more contrast and Guilford was saying that the town has never done the green paint before for right you so is this is this going to be your first one will except for the do work at 9 and 116 right no no I mean the ones that are like on the town town roads yeah the only other green we've done is the center of the island at p pomoy and and West stream okay the mountable island is is partially brick and partially green which so I was in that used for bicycling yeah so one question I had I was in that area today just like Tak a look at it um and so right like at the roundabout at pomoy you know there are the bike Lanes there um approaching the roundabout and and they're all well marked but then on this section just south like it doesn't particularly on the west side of the street it's it's very narrow the shoulder is very narrow um and it doesn't really feel like a bike lane very much um and so I mean so I guess if a bike lane is going to if the bike lanes are going to get added here more officially um you see I mean there's going to be like a disconnect I think between this intersection and the roundabout right I think we'll try to remedy that with our next round of striping okay we'll narrow the travel Lanes make the bike Lanes more official and we I think we're due to get a new bike template I think our old bike template is long gone um so haven't been refreshing those as often as we should um we also bought a new setup where we can do thermoplastic uh they have pre-formed thermoplastic um bike symbols that might be actually easier than painted templates and they last a lot longer okay so we might go that direction depending on the budget you know it's always it great I mean so I think too um I mean again so it sounds like it will get restriped right because on the even in this current round of the project because on that West Side it is really I'm pretty sure it's like not five feet they probably went Standard 12 foot Lane and we lost a couple of bike lane and yeah we need to like adjust and and actually go out with our painters and and lce premark everything for them and then and then too I mean I had noticed um like the speed limit in that area MH and I mean this has just been something that's on my mind a lot like particularly as you know we're developing more of these traffic calming measures but then the speed limit signs don't necessarily change but I noticed today like if you're driving South on 116 just before pot wine and just before the bus stop that's when the 50 mile per hour speed limit is yeah it's like wait a minute like where this is like where the bus stop is and things like that and um the official state speed limit so and it's hard to change um we can what we're what we're planning to do here is I think it shows on this sign or this plan where was it yes so we're going to move the speed limit signs further south so this is where it's going to change to 50 okay south of pot wine Lane um technically that doesn't change that this is an allowable 50 but we'll put the black and yellow advisories for the splitter islands and we can I don't know if we keyed in on what we were going to post here um well I mean presumably too once you have the splitter Islands right the actual traffic speeds are not 50 right right and so I mean and that's the other reason we went with the green painted bike lanes because had a 17 foot wide Lane and people flow down just for one little white stripe that says this is no yeah just sweep right out and I wasn't I mean I'm not as concerned about this um with the bike Lanes here you know as I was about belr toown road because it's narrow there yeah but I mean I had been reading just about um like the mass OT guidance for their projects and I know this is like a town own section is like when the road when the speeds are higher than 40 miles per hour they really do try to recommend that there's be some kind of buffering separated with with the bikee because it's not just for the bicyclist safety you know at 50 mph but it's actually the Studies have shown that it's actually to the drivers would prefer not to have to get too close to bicyclists right like it's pretty it's not that friendly to have to do that so um yeah I mean I hope there's some flexibility with the speed limits too but it sounds like I think um I get when I was listening to the TSO recording it s somebody had asked about that I think Gilford was saying that once um once the traffic calming is put in to look at changing the speed limit then right yeah then you can do the study and say that this is the new you know if you can get the 80 85th percen title to be lowered that makes your argument a lot easier they're they some flexibility in lowering beyond the 85th percentile but they still they lean on the 85th percent yeah they lean on the 85th perc pretty heavily still so the new like mecd guides that came out in December right it does say that you can be more like context sensitive in terms of like like heads and everything I Haven leeway I don't know if mot issued new guidance like since that came out but um it seemed like that was a big Improvement right because I mean a lot of people have been saying for a long time it shouldn't just be based on the 85th percentile speed so right um yeah okay well that sounds sounds really great yeah is there a place to tie your horse next to the bus stop take your horse over to the you'll have to leave it with Barry I do feel I feel like um you know sort of one in three people that I see standing there is always kitted out in their horse riding oh yeah because they right muddy bricks Farm yeah Y and then they take the bus home and they just don't change other and I mean and I mean I will say of the like projects that uh the PW and the town manager put forth to the council you know all at that same meeting whatever that was in March you know that this it was clear that this one like really had the most traffic cming so I really appreciate that and um and I I shared it with um I there's a a family who lives on pot wine and there's two um transportation engineering professors who live there and they they liked it too oh they did that's good and they had three little kids next time next people will be asking you to slow down the traffic on potline but one step at a time so okay thank you thank you sure all right so I guess do we feel like we need to take an official Vote or anything I feel like we should right okay so we just we support the project as proposed and uh yes okay I age I guess I guess we could also just say that um we should probably mention something more about um you know the lighting yeah piece meaning um for the the um people waiting at the I mean that's just from us like so so that we can keep it at the Forefront if there ever is money to add or if they need if lights go if there's money for lights I think you know bus stop should be lit or um or at least or even The Crossings potential you know with so this whole area in my opinion could be better lit but we but the road improvements are excellent like I can we incorporate that somehow into our I think I mean we can write up a brief like memo you know as we typically do that we I mean because um Jason has filled in some details right that we didn't really necessarily get from the short two page Meo the small drawing they sell rfbs now with projector lights you Mass installed them on massav I haven't been over them there at night to see them yet but the ones up massav supposedly have um they have the flashing lights but then they also have lights that project out into the crosswalk to light up the cross that's nice yes that is true that's true be that would be good too I think so you could recommend those for here if you wanted to I mean yeah depend on the budget but right of course well I will say that my office at UMass I'm on I'm massav yeah and that I'm my office is right next to across the street from the southwest dorms and that they have um the the flashing lights there are automatically sensed you know when the in the presence of pedestrians but I will also say that if it is snowing or if it is raining they are blinking all the time that's they do not stop I start I'm worried about putting rfbs near residen is now because of the audible signal that's required um oh you have to learn how to there's settings where you can turn them lower at night um well I noticed that they beep constantly at the Pomeroy intersection today right because all the rfbs are blinking uh beeping and it does seem like a lot of beeping is it's requirement for the visually impaired though no it could yeah but yeah I worry about putting them in residential areas now because of that that you know if I put it outside someone's house they could potentially lose their mind yeah right but there's adjustments that can be made sure sure that still fall within the regulations cool um yeah so I go ahead Kim do maybe I mean it seems like we have um unanimous opinion about this but perhaps we could you could send you know right up the memo and then we can all um do a email approval or whatever or we could just why don't we just take a vote that we like support the projects you know we do have we support the project overall we support the elements that Jason's discussed you know we do have a few concerns as you mentioned Kim like you know about lighting and speed limits and like other things so that doesn't take away from our approval of the project correct okay so um so I propose a motion that we um uh vote an approval of the proposed project okay I second that I vote Yes and so does Joe he raises he Roose raised his hand and I do yes and Joe do you want anything else to say so it okay all right so we are supporting that uh unanimously four to zero with two members absent okay thank you okay and then I guess we can get to the um Transportation Commission so Jason um I had put on the agenda some other items just that are traffic related but hopefully we can invite you back some other time okay on some of that stuff on like the safe roots to school stuff and Henry Street and yeah that stuff is moving forward we're just waiting for budget to come you come around and and get prices and stuff like that so we are moving forward on some of that stuff and I do think that it looks like in the final Capital Improvement the capital budget there was some money in there for um like some kind of like speed radar signs or school zone signs or something near the school so yeah yeah we already have feedback signs okay uh our electrician has those in in hand um we just need to get the um special safety zone signs and then we can put special safety zones and the and the speed feedback signs um we've got it pretty much got it laid out in my head but I haven't put it on paper right right well I think too I mean one key thing with the speed feedback signes if they're going in near the schools is that um it has to be decided when the school zone speed limits will be in effect right because currently I think it's about half an hour 40 minutes in the morning and afternoon and that I mean otherwise the underlying speed limits apply right which could be like 30 or 40 or whatever are you talking for pushman or for schools in general no for the schools the ones around the for schools in general sorry I thought you were talking about the kushman special that's GNA be in effect 247 okay got it miles an hour kushman but um but yeah we I I'm all for extending the hours of beacons as long as they're not flashing all the time because I think people get used to them if they flash all the time yes like yeah 247 and chief T seemed like he's supportive of that too so yeah cool all right thanks thank you all I'm gonna I appreciate thanks Jason thanks Jason and Say Goodbye thanks okay bye Care thank you all right Paul it's your turn great thank you thank you so it's been a while coming so I think so this is a a proposal to create a new committee commission that would replace Tac but actually give the commission actual power to make decisions I don't know if the council's going to approve it um but I think this is the right way to go uh I know there's been a lot of frustration from tac and about the role of TAC there's been a lot of frustration from the public about how do we get stuff done and approved there's been a lot of frustration from staff with a number of meetings that staff have to go through go to um so there's a lot of frustrations all across the board and um you know for any proposal that a road proposal so many cities and towns have a traffic Andor parking commission that has independent Authority or um is the single point of of entry for people to bring um recommendations that then go to the council so there's two models one is that this would be a committee that would be the single point of entry there wouldn't be an intertial Council committee um that things would come to the committee then they would refer to the to the council the other model is that this is a committee that has actual authority to make the decisions and has the final authority to make the decisions um you know this is I I I propose this at a memo which I think is in your packet some time ago um and um the council said interesting idea go work on it more talk it over with teac and then it's come back to the council it's not in TSO it has it stayed with the council so so this is the the conversation and this has taken a lot of different shapes at different times uh the first couple drafts were very specific about what this commission would be responsible for and then as we started to work on it more with the staff we started to think well we should actually model it on the town council's um policy on public ways because they have already addressed their I'm going back up a second under the town Charter the Town Council is responsible for public ways so all the power lies with the Council on that so we and they've already said well there's some things we want to see on a regular basis and there's some things we're delegating to the town manager we don't if someone wants to utilize a parking space for a day because they're doing Contracting work that doesn't they don't have to come to the Town Council if someone is reserving the town common for a day we don't want to see all those things if someone you know you know there's some things that that need to be happen you have to close a road for construction we don't want to see those things the bigger things we do want to see and um but then what has happened is that some of these bigger things come and then they get they get bogged down uh in process uh We've also had our residents who have say want a new sidewalk on my street or and they go to the council or they you know they come to attack and and and they come to staff and um and so they say well I'm going to put in a resident Capital request because I need I want this to be happened and there's no single point of um entry into so it's really unfair to the public in terms of how do I get something addressed and it's not like and it's and for most things we can't can't just say yes right because there there's engineering there's usually big issues that go along that go along with that um a case in point is the whole Henry Street discussion that you know people are very um uh anxious about you know and pushing that forward and frustrated by that process since that has come we've had we're starting to get more um traffic calming requests from Air from different neighborhoods like East Leverett Road has come in and saying we want traffic cing and we'll hear more we anticipate we're hear we'll hear more and I don't think the council is really equipped to get into the level of detail that these types of requests need to have be reviewed and also um I don't think I think we need more sort of overview policymaking these are things that you have experienced so I'm not I'm not telling you anything you don't know and I appreciate that but I do want I just didn't want it to frame where this is coming from so we find finally have something reduced to paper that you can react to that tries to address some of these issues and so it's basically this is a conversation it may it won't won't be the last conversation um and at some point we'll take it back to the council and see what they think I've talked with some counselors and there's sort no one has said yes please bring it to me they all understand the challenges um I think there's going to be some challenge for counselors giving up Authority that they hold right now but you know that's something that's a conversation we will want to have so that's sort of where we are and just sort of open like have just a informal conversation if we can um so so I started reading over um The Proposal the whatever the proposed charge or whatever and um to me um having been on you know I was on the I've been on this for a long time now when it was just like the bike and pedestrian one and um and having experienced and and then um when we became the tech we also had a bunch of um PE well a bunch several people who were there specifically for parking issues and eventually they transitioned off because it seemed like it that wasn't really a it wasn't they weren't they weren't feeling like they were accomplishing a lot because because that really wasn't something that we were addressing and um and then the parking issues that have come up there are some that are directly related so parking isn't Transportation as far as I'm concerned parking is another problem um it is a public way issue of course um and you know it is obviously at the end of a travel but um it it feels like it also feels like something of a like things have come up about budgetary issues surrounding parking and I'm just feel like maybe parking per se shouldn't be part of the the charge for this because because to me it feels like you know something that I think would really help the problems that you were just discussing um like our bike our our pedestrian and bike plan you know that's a long-term plan for the whole town right and and then it could feed into a lot of these requests or um I and I'm not sure how parking fits into that so so my initial reaction is you know I like the idea of of having a commission that looks at the town as a whole and helps prioritize um uh uh Street is issues related to Street and um travel um but parking seems a little bit out of the it it feels hard to figure out how that fits in of course it does fit in to Transportation because because for example one of the issues that had come up um with us and the TSO was like parking on Lincoln for example um and that obstructs the public that obstructs you know travel and um but a lot of the parkings for example parking in town doesn't obstruct travel and doesn't so it feels like a little too much that's my yeah you know we had that ex we really did talk about that and because we thought well maybe we have a parking commission and a Transportation Commission should we have two different bodies and as we sort of talk through it um I think what we are exper experience has been like on Lincoln it did it was more of a as much a part A tra Transportation issue as a parking issue the backend parking you um in terms of the you know that was as much a transportation issue because you're talking about other travel lanes and that's true and so we started to think well maybe and you know Guilford basically said rather have like One-Stop shopping like from for permitting like let's have somebody over looking at the whole thing totally open to the the the other I I think the idea of setting fees and stuff like that is would not be part of the concept of this it's more um as parking relates to public we and yeah and I didn't think that we should like this should include like off street parking for example because I mean I do look at it I do see parking as a transportation issue like I was just downtown this afternoon and I saw somebody come out of one of the angled spaces and instead of just going in their adjacent travel Lane they went across all the travel Lanes to go in the opposite direction right and I've seen people you know back out into where the buses are I mean it's a traffic flow issue it's a safety issue I mean one of the things on Lincoln right is the sight lines and so I I do really see on street parking as related to safety and traffic flow and you know where are the bike Lanes like how is everybody moving around that I don't see off street parking that way right so and and and I don't think like in terms of the fees and things I don't I don't think like that the decisions on those things should be made by this commission I mean it seems like that should be made by like the finance or the parking lead so so the only sort of so-called off street parking that's in a public way is the Spring Street Lot the other lots are not in the public way and not under the jurisdiction of the council so like like boltwood and Amity Street Li ODS right they're not public ways um yeah so and I mean and the way it was written to I mean one thing I was thinking about when I went through the charge um this new version of the charge is just in terms of like I was curious about how many types of like for certain items like how many requests or how many complaints or things that town hall staff is getting and you know is that going to take away like I I do feel like the transportation parking commission Transportation Commission I mean there's things I really like about it in terms of that it does allow for decision- making but it also has not just an advisory group of residents but also it has staff there and so hopefully the staff and the residents are talking together and then they're showing their they're making their recommendations instead of because it seems seems currently like somewhat disjointed sometimes that like in the case of Heatherstone for example like hea some Heatherstone residents have been talking to the DPW for maybe 10 or 15 years about the issue it just came to Tac for the first time that I've been on Tac just a few months ago and they're talking about like changes and we're not really familiar with it I mean so but again there were these other conversations the same thing that was happening with Henry Street a little bit right where the police have talked to people on Henry state or DPW there's all these different conversations going on and so it seems really powerful and also just efficient if like the main groups of staff are like in the room together talking about it together and speaking more with one voice instead of like all these different voices and then and also for the residents just to be then included the residents who are on the commission to be included in that instead of just hearing about it kind of after the fact so um but but I did for example I mean one thing was here it talked about that um you know that the that this commission could help you know develop procedures for submitting and responding to complaints related to parking so like one thing I was thinking is I bet sometimes people complain a lot about parking like if they get a ticket or and so like how many for the smaller kinds of complaints I would hope that they wouldn't come to the commission well ticket complaints have a different process appeal process that so maybe just to like clarify that it's not the tickets people have very strong opinions about tickets um and getting tickets and um I guess I'm Miss um oh sorry Tracy go ahead no CH yeah I just was I mean Paul you mentioned that it might not be easy for the um Council to give up its power I mean would one of these proposals over another be more um amenable to to them I mean they they certainly need to understand the problem of several different points of Entry of complaints and conversations that aren't um you know triaged in any way so uh I think they've got to understand that but I just curious I I guess I'm just trying to understand where which one of these would be um an easier spell if if they would agree that there's a problem um I think it's I think counselors especially District counselors are going to care about what happens in their neighborhoods and they want to fix what the complaints are coming to them so a lot of lot of complaints come into District counselors at district meetings someone will say hey I want a crosswalk here I want at the end of fiser street or wherever they want to or Harris Street I want a crosswalk here and they and the counselors feel um like that's their one of their jobs as constituent Services I think that's a thing that might be a barrier I think there's a the one thing we put in there um about the Town Commons so I think like putting a Bandshell on the common I think they're going to say no that's we're we're not giving that to anybody else that's us and I and that's right it's a right thing to that's a right that's a right decision I think but we wanted to be consistent with the the policy that they developed and then be able to flex it as they as they like to how are they do I mean personally I I don't think that the a Transportation Commission should be overseeing like uses on the common unless they're directly related to like the public unless they're directly related to Mobility so so the re so the one thing where that comes into play the one thing that comes to the council every year years is the farmers market the farmers market wants to use the common uh they have been using the Spring Street parking lot so because it's more than 14 days it goes to the council if it's under 14 days I can approve it um like the rotary fair I can approve but the farmers market they have to approve and the first couple years it was kind of like a lot of back and forth they had a lot of Education of themselves what you know why why don't they pay for parking all that kind of stuff so I think that that's that's that's the type of thing where I don't think they really care about that honestly they don't put any time into it a commission might have more input into like how it gets done I think yeah I mean okay I I mean I care about it you know from like the I mean if it was to come in terms of like a farmers market being in the parking lot you know where where the Spring Street lot is also like a thorough fair I can see that coming but in terms of like other strictly like fairs and other uses on the common it just see I mean when I saw that it it made me think too like how many types of requests like that come in there's only one is it is it taking away time from No it's it's only one because nobody asks for 14 days on the common ever Market that's it's a Time threshold that elevates it unless someone says we want to establish an encampment right right um yeah I mean so overall I thought that that was good um and on some of these I mean so you know when I think about Northampton Northampton has a transportation and parking commission and they look at these same things in detail but they are considered to be like advisory to their councel and and I don't actually think I don't have a problem with that like if I understand that you know transportation and Transportation safety is a concern of a lot of councelors it's concern of constituents they feel like they want to be involved and I can see where some counselors might be reluctant to kind of give up all of that and just say okay we're going to let this Commission of a few staff members and a few residents who may not even be in my district like make so we don't need to speculate what the what the council will do they'll do their own speculation that's true but um but if if I mean if the charge was made more advisory like I could see it I mean couldn't it be something where you know if it comes to the council like it gets referred to this commission as opposed to getting referred to a council committee and then it can come back and then the council would just take a vote yeah so I guess what the reason I was not recommending that was because I didn't want it to be like you know mom and dad like the the Transportation Commission said no so now I'm going to go to the council and have to do the entire thing over again it's like to have Clarity of decision making um you know I thought about an appeal process but then it's everything will get appealed automatically so why it just seems like yeah I mean as long as the council isn't having its like as long as the council I mean because there are other committees that are make recommendations to the council and then the council takes the final vote so I could see it kind of like that where the council isn't necessarily reviewing stuff in depth as well particularly like if the commission has would you like would you like to see an advisory is that what you're saying Tracy I mean I'm saying I'm saying that I can imagine that there would be push back on some of the larger changes I'm looking for your opinions now um yeah I my opinion is I I I think this is fantastic personally I I do love the Synergy or not the Synergy the the sort of I don't know forced conversation however you want to call it of the you know the um the Chiefs or designes and and the um you know superintendent of Public Works along with the public I think that's a recipe for Success um I so I mean in in general I think this is this is a much stronger easier path for just Joe public to understand um as well as the folks who are actually intimately involved um understand with Clarity so I just I think it brings a huge amount of um Clarity and simplicity the process and then the actual deciders or implementers I guess are in the room and in on it from the beginning and I I just think that there's a lot there that's um that's really helpful to to sort of remove the barrier of like four different individual conversations happening in four different Arenas that then never cross over so anyway that's my personal view as I think this is um I I just I think that this is so much better than anything that we have right now I mean well currently right what will happen is that items will go from the council and then they'll get referred to TSO and then TSO will consult Tac or DAC or maybe they won't I mean because there's a lot of items here that I've asked about like hey how come this never came to Tac and I was told well it's already going to so many other people like that Tac doesn't need to weigh in so I do appreciate like even you know things like the ebike stations and things like that I do think that those things are helpful for uh commit or Commission on transportation to C um and then right so then once it goes to TCH and DAC then it goes back to TSO then it goes but I mean it's so long and I can see that it could be frustrating to staff and it's frustrating for people who are looking for results um I like the idea to you know just having these coordinated conversations and I mean the way that Capital improvement process with the public input that doesn't really work now right because even though residents are allowed to submit their requests I mean it seemed that the jcpc one of the comments they had is they said well this didn't come from a department this didn't come from a commit like this is coming from a resident where does this all fit in so hopefully that could also be part of the commission's charge you know looking at those like bigger issues about you know some of the prioritization and things like that those are things that have been talked about for a while since before I even join Tac about having just like over half of the um municipalities in Massachusetts have they have complete streets prioritization plans where you've identified like what are your priority projects for your town and then you're eligible for complete streets funding and sometimes Pro sometimes plans have like 50 or 60 or more projects but it does make you eligible for the funding um because I do think it is hard I mean I and I've I've gotten contacted sometimes you know either by counselors or by residents in certain areas who are looking for something like right near their property um saying well it's not safe on our street or but we just know that I mean having that bigger framework about like where are the main corridors and like where are the main there are certain places where people have been asking for improvements for a really long time and I understand that everybody wants improvements in their neighborhoods and everybody wants slower traffic near their homes but we can't they're not all kind of equal in terms of priority and and also we have limited funds right and sometimes like our sidewalk budget got cut and things like that so it's good to have a framework for that yeah but it's also so my my main concern about about um not having a prioritization plan which slots like requests into into their place you know based on some kind of metric is that the people who have the least time to complain or perhaps feel like the least um emboldened to speak aren't getting heard and it's like those of us with extra time or whatever are the ones that are so so I what I've really appreciated about our attch and our prioritization is like we're just looking where people live where lots of people live and and and making and where town centers are and where bus stops are and where people need to get to places are um and and and like like making it Equitable and I hate throwing that word around I feel like it's a word that everyone's using but I really feel like that's something that we have actually worked on really hard and then you know part of the issue with the new form of government is that you only hear from the people who have the time and I feel like for transportation issues it really affects especially the use of the public way um and bus and walking and all that is like people who may not have more time like I feel like having an overall plan which is something that we have we're good at because we can think in a large framework um that's something really needs to be done and that's yeah that's that's a great point I mean they call that the aristocracy of time you know um that people who have the time they they have more they hear hear more the other thing that we lik I like about this I be personal about it is that um and this no offense to the counselors but counselor a District counselor wants something in their neighborhood they know if their neighborhood their nextdoor neighbor um District counselor wants something they're going to be like well you you voted for mine I'll vote for yours I like the idea that what you just said Kim is that there's an overview there's reference to planning there is a a comprehensive view of things in a more objective manner um as opposed to these are the loudest voices right and I think that that's what an independent body brings you right and that's that's what I think I feel like we had done well in the past and then with the new form of government all that's kind of out the window and so I think bringing that piece back is really valuable well so Kim do you see this draft um proposal that Paul's prepared as a structure to en enable um sort of like a planning and a decision-making regime that's sort of agnostic to those pressures or I didn't I didn't exactly see that here because again it seems like it's relying a lot on and I don't know on on complaints and where those go and and like that needs to have a place too I don't I'm not saying it doesn't because certainly things can be there that our body hasn't seen because we're not like you know walking on that street in the middle of the night or doing that on a Saturday late and a Saturday or something I don't know but um or things can be emergent for sure um so I guess I guess like well maybe maybe Paul um if you were to add um an element into the the sort of in addition part you know you kind of go through here are the um the places that this this um commission would have authority and then there's in addition you could say um develop clear and consistent long range plans right and and prioritization ands element in there so um it's I mean to me that was sort of inferred in what he wrote but um but I have no problem making it um explicit I think that would be a good addition yeah I think uh say one thing then I see Joe has raised his hand one of the things is that we we we we always walk this this balance between we want to be responsive to public requests right that's part of our jobs we're we're customer service organization but also we want to make sure that we're handling the taxpayers funds equitably and responding equitably to people it doesn't really happen honestly you know certain neighborhoods are more privileged and they know how to activate themselves but um and so we have to be responsive to that but we try to be you know utilize that yeah but Joseph has his hands up are you are you seeking to yeah yeah I was just curious if other townships using this model have a more formalized uh complaint process being utilized and and tracking of it that you're aware of complaint process um I don't I don't know yeah meaning so is is the only way that so this Transportation committee would receive complaints are people that would show up to transportation and parking committee meeting or do they have other access points for that yeah no I think what our goal would be to have a portal that people could submit like sort of not see click fix but something where we want we want a new sidewalk on East Pleasant Street or whatever it is right I think so I mean internally so I mean typically you know every year every year and a half like um for a while Tac did receive those complaints there was a form a PDF form that was on the TAC website but it wasn't actually like an e form it actually had to be like printed out and sent in and those you know then sometimes Amber would you know forward those to us um also sometimes people contact the Tac at ammer ma.gov address which also goes to DPW and it trickles over to Tac sometimes not all the time um I think it is helpful to you know if there can be sort of a One-Stop way for people to submit submit comments complaints concerns um um so but previously at the TAC meeting sometimes you know Guilford would have a spreadsheet that a running spreadsheet he would be keeping of the different um things that have been requested and he would share that with us because typically we wouldn't be aware of many of them of course they can come in through so many different channels you know through phone calls through people stopping by the office through emails through these for like there's so many different options so if there is a way to sort of track that I think it is helpful but it's also helpful if people understand sort of similar to C click fix but a little more comprehensive about what are the next steps in that process like right just because I mean I think that that was one thing with having residents submit Capital Improvement requests like I mean it does it could make people feel that if I submit my request and it's a worthy request it's going to get funded right like clearly there's this need and it's just we have a lot of needs and we don't have enough resources to pay for all those so you don't want it to be misleading to people but just to have people understand like that it's been accepted and you know it's being considered and things like that I mean I think any of that clarification is great and I also um I think I had mentioned cha but when I was at the District 3 meeting which was held down at graph Park a few weekends ago um somebody from the DPW mentioned on the C click f requests that sometimes they're getting compaints or comments that are things that aren't either under like DPW jurisdiction or if it's Road related it might not even be a Town Road but residents don't always know that right and so when they're contacting this they want to respons or things and so if there is ways to improve the communication around that um and and just um and just let people know well that's not a you know that's not a Town Road you'd have to Conta ATT the district office mot or whatever it is um so that people do feel like they're kind of not kind of left out there without any kind of options of what to do next so um like the more we can you know have those processes and make them transparent I think are helpful um I did review you know when we were going through putting together the charge I know you and I both were looking at different commissions that have been set up around the state for you know the transportation commissions and at Le you know one of the ones I reviewed they did they did have these long meetings where they would go through like each of the requests that they had received so there would be a form in which those were held and at least reviewed and and then for the next meeting they'd be following up or like what are the ones we need to follow up on for next time and the action items related to those so um I wouldn't want it to just be that kind of I mean I do like the longer planning element too you know I am a transportation planner I have that background but it is helpful for people to feel like like things are proceeding through the system and they know what to expect yeah and so we do have a spreadsheet that shows all yeah we have a spreadsheet if I can share with you if you'd like that all 59 um communities that have something like this with links to it's sort of outlines the basics of what each Community has that helped inform this you know I think one of the things that we're really working on for staff is we have to also say no to people and to the council and we've struggled with with that because you know we try to serve the council but the staff are just getting stretched too thin and we're getting burned out so and so like for instance you know there there's a topic that council's dealing with now we we say if you either fund a position to do it which we don't have money to do that means we have to take it take a position away from something else or um you know you we just can't do it or you know there's like we you you have to choose something that you want you have on your list for Town manager goals that you're not going to do so trying to have some forced decisions just um just I've heard a lot of feedback from folks on being but this is one that's been consistent since before the council this has happened when I came here with the select board it was always the same you know Tac was more you know more robust at that point in time because you had more people um so yeah in in tax current chart like the one that was drawn up by the select board I mean it does say that Tac will track like requests and help develop the prioritization but I think that I mean that charge is clearly out of date but also attack as an as a volunteer based committee like without Staffing too that we just do not have that capacity and also for certain types of requests you know if people have potholes or things like that there's nothing like we don't have any role with that as well so yeah but I think that we' talked a lot about that this Commit This commission would need real Staffing not it can't rely on you know Chris and Guilford happening to show up or something like that sure I think it's going to really need monthly management and more dedicated Staffing which is going cause us to create a forced decision on what we where we putting this okay so I did have a question just on the composition of it like um you know in terms of the staff like to have Staffing from planning DPW like fire and police and then you know and then like later on in the charge it says well you and you can also consult like people who are like the finance and parking staff and so on but I was curious about um the fire chief in a designate just you know I know that our emergency like Personnel are stretched pretty thin too and they're pretty busy um and that it seems to me like that the police being on the committee are there both from like a safety perspective in terms of Emergency Response um with Transportation but also because they're also involved with enforcement of speeding and things like that and that that maybe I mean it's I mean not to kick a fire chief off of it but it just seems like they may have other priorities and maybe they could also be on the list of like the other departments that are consulted yeah I mean any traffic thing we do we consult with fire because it's all about their fire trucks and you know even like when we were looking at Henry Street they were talking about speed humps like we had we talk with the assistant chief and he says yeah fire trucks have water so we do have to slow down does that impact our response time yes but it has se response on Lincoln Street you know he also said if we hit one of those bumps and we are not we're not prepared for it or we our driver doesn't notice it he said I've hit my head on the when I'm working on a patient on the roof that's not a good place to be so that was feedback I had not thought about before so that kind of feedback the only other group that you know I I didn't we didn't really address explicitly was the you know because I see the coun the council tends to say or the TSO committee tends to say it to tack into daac and we're just trying to eliminate the number of times that say Guilford or Jason have to go to a committee right like sure or or a resident has to and so the only other thing I thought about was to have a slot a representative from daac on it somehow or something that I don't we didn't really solve that problem yeah I mean I think so when I had reviewed a draft version right I had tried to add some DAC elements into like the public members you know that you want to have like because you also want you know people with different experiences the what is it disability access advisory Comm okay maruna yeah um yeah so just I mean just because you want people who are coming from like different you know socioeconomic backgrounds and different lived experiences related to Transportation so I was trying to expand it that way um I mean I think that some of what the commission would talk about would be of great interest to DAC and some of it would be of less interest um on the fire I mean I when I look at the what the ways the other you know towns that have commissions are structured like some of them do include fire and some don't yeah but we can add that as an OP we can look at that I have that note and um yeah but I agree with you Tracy both on I mean every almost every street Improvement that we've um we've um consulted on always goes to um disab the disabil and it seems like that's a no-brainer I mean when I had talked someone should you know or at least have have someone involved in it who who has those types of experiences or professional exper expertise on the committee because I it feels like that is an important input that a lot of us don't well and as like the tax chair like I do try to go to the disability access advisory committee meeting sometimes just to listen in um and I have talked to their committee and you know I've thought about us formally having like members on each other's committees which we haven't done that formally um but it seems it is an important Community like to be reach yeah that might be that might be one way to do I also I also agree on the the fire um I mean having someone from one of the professional um Services police or or fire paramedic even here I mean it seems like police because they also drive large vehicles and have a fairly good understanding of the needs of um large large vehicles on the streets you know right and certainly you know yeah and the feedback that we've gotten from DPW you know when you look at different traffic calming measures that have you know vertical deflection right that DPW is quite sensitive to the idea of having buses and right right you know larger Vehicles larger Town Vehicles having to go over when you have a lot of vertical deflection like some of those speed bumps that you Mass because I have hit my head on those those very extreme ones they put in so um one so are you guys are you guys saying that you want to add um DAC into like as a voting member or as a possible consultant depending on the project at hand I mean I'm I'm just trying to get a grasp on to me it feels like at least someone with with expertise in you know professional expertise or or or a personal stake in the matter I mean it with a deep understanding of multiple needs right it could be a staff person related to DAC um or it could I don't know and we don't have anybody like that really I wonder could the DAC actually have um a member within it that crosses over to this commission sure yeah absolutely I mean you do do cross sometimes right like we do planning you know appointment to the CPAC committee or yeah yeah so then it's still a volunteer Committee Member but the person understands them to also be maybe it is a fourth Committee Member but it's specific to DAC or something yeah I hear you saying is Da we need to address a DAC input into this group I I I feel like that's formally yeah yeah especially if the idea is to decrease the number of communties agree and the question is whether a question mark on fire is it really Ur is itre fundamental to the yeah well I think weren't if it if they weren't designated as a member expressly right they could also be listed as like the people that are contacted too um and there was one thing um that you know is in the current ta charge and I don't really know I don't see it here in part because this was built you know from the public way policy um but something like larger picture stuff related to Transit so um you know back in the days of the Public Public Transportation and bike committee um when I first came to Amis and join that committee like we always did have somebody from UMass Transit there you know from five College Inc just the perspective of like five college buses and things but and pbta like we were visited right and I mean and we have had Doug Slaughter who's like the town's rep on the PTA board I think for a while he was a chair maybe he still is but he's come and talked to Tac um we do get requests like we did have presentations from some people talking about West East Rail and things like that so I suggest that maybe under the the like you know the not delegated authority part but that it includes something sort of related to those larger public transportation issues yeah I mean that was that was always very useful and honestly you know if we can get and this is Pie in the Sky of course but getting someone who you know considering we have a major university right in the middle with that controls mainly their own streets right in the middle of our town having someone from who also as part of the planning would be really useful and I know that's pie in the sky but yeah should really be talking more to one other than North Pleasant Street we don't control their they can do whatever they want on their roads I understand that but like at least for planning sake you know and like Network sake it makes a lot of and and you know I would imagine they would have the you know there's a concern from them getting their people in and out of of their space I mean right that was a large part of the conversation about Lincoln parking on Lincoln and whether it's commuter parking or whether it's not and yeah and there's just you know I don't know so I have to log off in a couple minutes go the affordable housing trust meeting so this is great feedback um so can you tell us if you would like if anybody would like to write something and post you know if you think about something afterwards please write an email um and I think we'll I'll go back to our you know our team and look at it again come up with it you know revise it I this a great feedback I think um and um it's you said Paul that it will go back to TSO is that right no I learned today it was never delegated to the TSO the the council never gave it up so all right got it so we'll go to the council I guess yeah yeah okay all right thanks okay yeah thank you Paul just before you just no I mean I can just conduct I mean just in terms of our next meeting do we think we could beet like the beginning of August like August 1 or 8th I can also I can also send around an email Gilford had said he's not available on the 15th or the 22nd so I suggest we meet on the 1 or the eth so I can't meet um in the latter part either so I could do the first I can do the first okay I'll FL that around in an email okay all right thank you Paul thanks for coming thank you all right take care bye have a good night