but maybe he'll show up hi so good afternoon um this is the May 16th meeting of the transportation advisory committee um and I just need to go ahead and read the statement about virtual meetings um so it said here pursuing to the chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 2022 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting May do so via Zoom or telephone no in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the meeting real time so okay we can go ahead and get started so I will just ask um we can just do a roll call um Amber had asked us to be good about that so I guess if everybody can just chime in um so so Chris is here Chris you can hear y Chris okay and Stefan yep Stefan CH okay and Joe is here too Joe yep hey everybody excellent okay so we have our four members um and then we have Guilford Chris prup and we have our two guests from the Palmer um train station rail stop proposal so if you guys just want to introduce yourself too sure um I'm Ann Miller and I'm Ben Hood but she's going to talk about us further okay great all right well welcome thank you for joining us Ben and I moved to uh the valley in 2002 um we were retired academic Librarians so we moved out here at that point um to work at the colleges we both worked at UMass at some point and and at the other colleges several of the other colleges as well great over the years welcome so also um Guilford so Rob kustner is in the audience and can we go ahead and let him in as a panelist too please sure he wanted to be available for this discussion there he goes all right and uh George Ryan is in the audience as well but last time George asked to continue to be a attendee and not a panelist George we change your mind you're welcome to raise your hand okay um go ahead so Ann and Ben take it away okay so and hi Rob so we started um we got involved in the train effort in 2015 at that point um the state of Massachusetts along with um Connecticut and uh Vermont on and the Federal Railroad Administration were looking at a plan to uh revive passenger rail from Boston uh to New Haven and New York and to Montreal both both via Springfield um Palmer was in that plan as a potential stop but it was very tentative um so we started advocating to have Palmer made um an actual stop in that plan uh we did succeed at that so Palmer became uh a stop in that 2 uh it was released in 2016 it was called the ner plan um and then we were also able to keep Palmer as a stop uh listed as a future stop in the follow-up plan uh which was called that you've probably heard of the East West passenger rail study plan um after some years of delay the state has decided to go forward with passenger rail um the eastwest study looked at instead of the Boston to New Haven and New York via Springfield in the Montreal connection the um eastwest was looking at Boston to Pittsfield so now the state is going forward with passenger rail with um sort of a um a hybrid of the two they're they're looking at uh Boston to Springfield initially and then Springfield to almany so it's it is slightly different but they are going forward with it Governor Healey has designated uh design of a new Palmer station and track work in Pittsfield as what she calls early action items so that has begun uh Ben is actually on the uh State administered committee that's looking at the design of the Palmer station so that that committee consists of MOT um and their new um West East rail director is that the proper term um do I have name right Andy kosel and Andy kosel so it's called West East rail now and um also a a consultant VHB who was hired by mot and um so they are providing you know the sort of technical expertise on the conceptual design um and and that that is expected to last for about 18 months and should result in how do we also pay for whatever design is is developed um so that's one of the reasons why we thought it was very important to talk to people in ammer is that the design of our station is pretty crucial to how any future connection to ammer will occur and we really don't want that for one thing we wouldn't even be a station if we weren't on the line to ammer you know we are on the line to Springfield but we're not in the in the sort of metro area category that gets a lot of attention these days um and I do think the heal Administration has shown an interest in rural development which is nice but none of that guarantees a place like Palmer a stop on a on a on an Amtrak line um Maine has had a very successful line with a lot of stops of of mixed types of you know cities small towns the down Easter so that model could work very well across Massachusetts and down into Connecticut and probably across the rest of Western Massachusetts to Albany um but we really think that Palmer's existence is linked to amorist and um so do we leave out anything about I mean historically Palmer was uh an important railroad Nexus believe it or not um it was at the junction of six railroads and and nearly seven so it it's called the town of seven railroads that's the town's nickname so our interest in coming to speak to you was um well first of all that ammer we know your transportation plan had um the goal of retaining that advocacy of of recreating uh passenger rail to ammer someday so I believe you that's in it's on page 2-14 of your 2015 transportation plan and we we want to make sure that that advocacy stays in any future plans or documents um even if the state doesn't have a plan immediately to revive that line um but we you know that that would be goal number one and actually the the thing I was forgetting the um the importance of amest is has was demonstrated during the previous period from about 20 19 to 2021 where where they were doing the East West rail study and we had a town committee so we had the town very officially behind us as far as saying you should have Regional representation you should have the um you know the people in town who are the key players speaking to the state and so we were making the case for Palmer all the way through and the case for Palmer is literally the title of the Amorous UMass Amorous Center for economic development study of Palmer as a potential strain stop but I think the really key documents always were and the and the key sort of letters and of support that we got um you can see them um if you look at our website this is where you'll find information I don't know if some can screen share our our our website or not but yeah I mean I've shared it before we can't do it in this format on Zoom but I've shared it with the committee members when you initially contacted us I shared it and uh and that's and it has a letter of endorsement for Palmer rail stop from both the town manager and then also the council right and so have having Paul bachan and the Town Council both you know say that we should have a stop and that ammer should have it stop back and and you know and that there's a connection there that's been a key argument for us unfortunately I think that the thing missing in this argument is that mot doesn't really at this point acknowledge that Amis is even being considered for the return of Passenger rail service which is a little sad because you know they could very easily pvta is already committed to running a bus down I'm sure we can get UMass ammer eventually to run a van you know at the right times to connect it for students but bus and Van are nice but there should be a future plan for train service and we really don't want that to to get forgotten you know because they did the whole Central Corridor study just talking and meeting um your planner um about the previous Campaign which which led up to our campaign where people from ammer and Palmer and Connecticut towns actually pushed really hard to get the central Corridor going so that you would have Yukon and Norwich and New London and Brattleboro and amest all on another train line with a lot of people around it and they concluded that this was actually not really worth doing at this point but should you should keep an eye on it for the future well mot says things like that but they don't keep an eye on them so we have to force them to keep an eye on this and I think we need we need a group of people who can actually get ambered back on the on that on that on that radar in Boston for where the train should be going you can easily just have a train continue right through Palmer and end up in ammer rather than Springfield the tracks just split and you just have to make the connection um it could even be you know without stopping in Palmer if there a train from Amis to Boston or it can stop in Palmer either way and then you have you you know trains should connect and they should you know share different routs so that people can move around you know very easily and one immediate concern for us is Ben is on that as I said that committee that's looking at the sighting of the future Palmer we'll call it a platform because it probably won't have a building but um but it might be at our historic station it may be at the historic station which would be convenient for future am service but that may be logistically difficult we want to make sure there's sufficient advocacy from ammer Andor UMass that that connection that the station is in sighted in such a place that Revival that line would be difficult or if or if it were revived it would not stop and it would not you there would not be an easy connection at Palmer for people from ammer trying to go to Boston if if that line were revived you don't want them to have to like you want you want some kind of connection there um that that's seamless so you know signing the station is actually a bit complicated in order to do that because the the location of the historic station um some people say doesn't lend itself well to recreating a or to to not recreating but to creating a contemporary Trin platform um that would allow that so you know we feel like if there was enough advocacy coming from ammeron um Mass the state would be um more sensitive about placing the future Palmer station in the correct location for Revival of service on the central corner and I just have one last thing to add to this um so um in an email that that Tracy wrote she she to us she mentioned that she had talked to Rob about Rob kustner about about the the the need to you know get a people together and and and work on this you know there should be interested people who could Advance this as a cause we'd like to sort of add to that that not only would we think we'd be a good fit for working with people in am because we've tried over the last nine years several times to reach people at UMass with VAR degrees of success so we know a bunch of people there and you know some like Rob are are quite active and have been out to the state meetings and spoken out and and you know and done things behind the scenes others have been very sympathetic but we're not sure we've really got them fully engaged but we also are tied in with the rail Advocates across western Mass so I know that sometime maybe last year uh Ben hexir came to your your committee I think it might have been the year before before yeah you know and we we knew that and we knew that sometime we should try to talk to you but we were waiting until there was a reason to and we think 2024 is the year there's a reason to and we think that if we could get The Advocates from the western Mass rail Coalition which Ben and we founded uh a number of years ago we can advance all trains on all sides up on the Northern Tier in the valley and on the east west line you know and down to New York City and and and all of that would be something that amers should be connected to because it's an important place with a big university in it yeah we we work pretty closely with Ben hexer of trains in the valley we we're actually probably seeing him next week but we we um yeah we talk to them all the time so we we've coordinated on almost all of our advocacies since they they came in a little after us but ever since we've worked heavily or we worked closely with with Ben so yeah so so we feel like that that that's very helpful for us in terms of well I think we see ourselves as having the same goal basically so anyway yeah Rob's got his well actually can I just uh Chris R had her hand up first uh I don't know if Ann and Ben if you met Chris preset before she's the planning director we just met met ear um started yeah I just wanted to say that um Rob kustner worked with Jonathan Tucker who was the former planning director on this project and he's much more knowledgeable about it than I am so I would defer to whatever he has to say but I'm interested in working on the project too and I I know that after an and Ben reached out to me originally I mean one of I did reach out to the town manager about it you know they didn't contact him directly and he mentioned that there had been a like the previous like I don't know somebody some previous Town manager economic development director or something had been involved with the real effort does that sound familiar Rob maybe maybe Larry schaer or something so exactly um and I know too that Anna Devin gothier right now like one of her roles on the council is like being a liaison on state issues like with the legislature and stuff so she might be a good contact as well on the state on the town side but if I may could I just add a couple things it was really good to actually meet an and Ben just about a week week week and a half ago and uh weather much like today so I have a really good sense from them both of what they can do and also what the Palmer station is like the station area is like if you've never been to the actual historic station it's just it's worth a visit also um let let me add some something that probably is not familiar to folks who are in the background and I think an and Ben know this but it has to do with the amount of investment that's already happened in the line between New London Palmer and on up to uh Brattleboro that goes right through amorist during um I think both the present and the previous administrations and the previous previous one the Obama Biden that other one and then the Biden Administration the Federal Railway Administration I think it's fwa invested basically gave a grant to the to the the owners of the of the of the roadway of the trackway there um very substantial Grant I think it was in the 50 between 50 And1 million to upgrade the rail to the highest standard of of continuous welded rail it's heavy Rail and so that's an investment there many other projects that we think about in this part of the the wealth that you know get millions of dollars of State funds occasionally some federal funds but this is a huge investment that's already been made and so having a railway connection from amoris to to Palmer and perhaps further south and further north is a lot's been put into it already we we've sort of we can piggyback off of that the second thing is there are apparently several private individuals uh one of them I won't mention the name but is closely involved with the Palmer area who'd be willing to operate a rail shuttle service between amoris especially for the University students and any other people who want to ride it to Palmer with connections to the East and of course to the west but good connection would be towards the east so there's a really there's a lot of investment already and there people interested in doing this if the right model can be constructed um unfortunately the you know let me just finish my um connection like like Tracy's we we work at the University we wish we could call the shots maybe but um you know wherever the wherever the authority lies right now I'm sure it's preoccupied with other issues but maybe at some point in the near future those other issues will will see a you know be seen in a different way and getting the tens of thousands of students at the University and the faculty staff that are in Affiliated Fox colleges other folks in town who TR Trav very regularly there are thousands of people who travel each day as commuters to the Boston area having a few of them shift over to the rail mode would be fantastic having most of the students come to and from campus not having to bring their cars imagine the change that would make in the amorist area and let me just add one last thing one of the people I reached out to some of you may be surprised if you know my reputation is a former Town Town official but someone I'm actually pretty close with and I talk with them from time to time I mean we have each of us have our phone numbers is Barry Roberts and he's he said Rob go for it you know he's very interested in doing this and so those of you from Amis know who I'm talking about I think Ann and Ben may know I may have dropped the name to to them but but I think it's good to have people who who have long history of caring about you know the the development of the town and and who see the the town of amorist as you know a leader in in new ideas this would be a good new old idea or a good old New Idea okay so any that's what I add to that I'll stick around but I'll go ahead um so Chris Lam you just have to unmute hi yeah so um I'm just trying to get a handle on um or let me sort of if I can I'll just try to repeat what I think the um you know the the issue is or the concern and then what the opportunity is I I can't quite tell I don't quite understand what the opportunity is but um the issue is that in the sort of new scheme in the Healy Administration um there's interest in west east rail but um it would be not including ammer oh or it would be with a station that would not make ammer easily linkable to that West East Network and so that's what the difficulty is and so and the opportunity is to now because a decision is being made about the location of the Palmer station we should be weighing in because we want that link is that what I'm hearing is the actual sort of current place for advocacy or anyway I don't know I'm just trying to wrap my head around the opportunity thank you for asking Chris because I had the same sort of question about how we can participate Ann and pen if you look if you look at the statements from our political leaders and I would say that includes Senator cumerford Senator olera who's our Senator um and many of the Reps in the area um from the hilltowns all the way down to you know to the Palmer area and over to Long Meadow everyone focuses in western Mass on the importance of amorist and UMass and Palmer's kind of the standin station on the east west line just because of proximity I think historically if you look at where people took trains I think you might find Emily Dickson or her family riding somehow down towards our line you know through um through Mount Holio or something you know and it's like it's like a it's like a it's where the the the tracks are so Palmer on the east west line is the best stop if you're going to Boston you know otherwise the next stop is Worcester which is fine and you know and the pvta was smart enough to create a Amis to Worcester bus Which apparently has been successful enough cuz I'm the rep for Palmer to the pbta and I have to say that that that was great news I thought that if if people will ride a bus just to Worcester which doesn't even get them to Boston until they switch to a commuter rail train then think what will happen when they can take a bus or van to Palmer and take the train all the way to South Station with many stops along the way including Worcester and and uh two but some people I think are ending in Worcester and that bus doesn't run every day is that right like I remember looking in the schedule isn't daily it's and it's been it's co had a severe impact on it yet it survived and and and seemed to have a you know such good ridership at times that it was actually overcrowded so that could have been something to do with you know driver shortages and smaller buses too but it certainly proved that um what Rob was saying that there's a lot of PE students who are going to ride these trains buses whatever that that go east so Palmer is a good standin for this the political leaders in the West understand that that Palmer is a good connection to amoris but the thing that people are not focusing on the study that sort of gave us our station the big study not the East West rail study but the earlier study from 2016 well it's a year older than the central Corridor study from 2017 so it's not too late to get the state to pay attention to what it spent money on and it spent money on a study of the central Corridor and we think that amest is the sort of the the big place place in the Massachusetts part of that study I would argue that Yukon is is the big place in the Connecticut part of that study right if we could get the Connecticut people who've been really good on trains for many years longer than Massachusetts state officials have been I think Yukon and UMass would get a train sort of what Rob was describing some somebody even an an entrepreneur might be willing to do that train but the state will need to support it and the state has been good I'll say this they've been very good about supporting things like our quog connection which we've been very involved with to connect a bunch of towns in our area which have virtually no mass transit no public connections to anything it's drive or walk and you know and that's a terrible situation for many people in rural areas but the asot has understood that they've supported the efforts locally to create transportation and the Worcester route is another example of that because the quot connector people have been involved in getting that Worster route up and and and other route n you know connections on bus but we just think that the state should be moving the train forward so I I will add one other thing to what Rob said um about the upgrades to the central Corridor line and acknowledging I'm going to acknowledge right off that central corter line is not on the state agenda right now um but advocacy could at least keep it on the back burner um so the thing is that line those upgrades were done for Freight purposes um and they continued I think beyond what Rob's talking about um so I believe now all of that line at least in Massachusetts has and actually probably in Connecticut as well has been upgraded primarily for Freight purposes um but coincidentally this does make it easier to run passenger rail on it and historically or what we've always heard is the owner of the line has always been more amenable to passenger reel then um CSX which would which will be the owner of the eastwest or west east what's now called west east line CSX had to be pretty much backed into a corner to agree to passenger rail on on the west east Trail line so um supposedly I think it's Gennesse Wyoming um but or New England Central the supposedly the owner is more uh more minimal um but in indeed in the short run um um Christine's right that we're we're we're we we want we we're looking for the advocacy for the sighting of the Palmer station to make that future connection possible I should say the heale administration doesn't really have a position that's that's negative about any of this they actually the ones pushing the the the Stop and Palmer and I think they probably recognize that the UMass connection and the and the and the Amis connection is is very important for that the thing that they are not aware of and this is true of Governor Baker um he seemed almost oblivious to the fact that they'd had this massive study that they'd already done and before it was published they they he he got sort of backed into doing a million dooll study the East West rail study of sort of a similar thing but with an extension to Pittsfield and so there's a lot of this that happen in the state government where they could be working on you know the plan that will replace the plan they're they're still working on you know and they're going to build say the mall outside the Mullen Center this year but then they're going to rebuild it next year because they're already working on that other plan you know and you got to be careful with the state and and try to hold them to what they what they've already done and so I think it's not too late to to push the amorist you know um Central Corridor connection because you had a train that stopped there and picked people up and let and it was the verant we're not talking a Washington DC to to you know to Vermont train service from am it's a great service I mean I guess I mean one challenge I I see on the north south rail at least is that because that Northampton Stop Now like that I mean there's been a lot of investment on the other side of the river with the stops and my understanding is that the Northampton Stop is like one of the most popular stops like along that whole Corridor so um though most most is going south to New York and Philadelphia I'm sorry go ahead no I just I so I'm not sure how quickly I mean I I you know as Chris Lyon was saying just about um just in terms of like what we can help with in terms of like you know advocating for like the Palmer for their the stop to be place you could have a future connection things but well I think yeah I mean I think we're just talking about here the am stop in relation to getting to Boston right oh yeah I mean some people had talked to more sou but yeah to to Boston and possibly South to Mansfield po Corners where Yukon is or even to the yeah yeah assuming it goes that way yes absolutely right no of course yeah but thank you thank you for coming and filling Us in on some of that yeah thank you for inviting us because we actually feel like the Amorous connection got us to where we are today and so you know we don't we don't want to lose the connection to to you all and it's nice to meet more of you basically yeah I mean if you want to send us like some key links to look at like we can circulate them around our group and then also you know as I said Rob and I had talked about other people we could like reach out to again as an advisory committee we don't have like a lot of power um and I think it is important to involve like the local officials and and it's great that the planning director is here and so people with more power than tax so um but that would help just you know we're just not as familiar with like some of the studies as you are of course so I'll I'll say one really brief thing so um when they did the East West rail study they actually sort of identified what people should be at the table and they said Westfield should be at the table now Westfield I worked at Westfield State College at one point but it became Westfield State University so Westfield is a place with a university in it now Westfield didn't come to the table they showed up the first meeting they never came back and they never showed any interest in the east west rail study and now they're talking trains that would go right through Westfield and Westfield suddenly had a new mayor I think a year or two ago and he sent someone to a meeting to sort of say greetings from the mayor of Westfield you know it's like they were a little late to the to the thing they could have been at the table and been a stop on the east west rail study instead Westfield was left out they had a university well amest has a much bigger University and you know you're not on the east west rail line so you couldn't be at the table for that one I actually have two but colleges couple colleges and a un you know it's like it adds up and and there's no reason why Boston and ammer should not be connected I can't think of anything in Western Massachusetts that should be more connected to Boston and I say this as a Springfield area resident than ammer but also just um if you do share our links and if you just spread the word we we know um you guys are all involved in other things so you're not taking on this level of personal advocacy yourself but um just giving you know the links to people or or telling them to cont yeah no I would if you want to just share back like a cou I mean you did share that your initial website but also just like some of the key studies or things like that I think that that would just be helpful can I just say one quick word so so one thing I have to say their website an and Ben have created a great website oh it is great one one one of the one of the links is known as a to B it's not an to Ben but it's you know people say in the transportation business we're in the business of getting from A to B very efficiently and A to B is like Amis to the Boston area I think it's a brilliant logo and it's it's just putting this community back into the network that has existed for century and a half and probably should continue to exist definitely well thank you thank you all and thank you rob thanks for having thank you for having us thank you thank you so much that was really help thank you very much you bye okay all right so can I stick around and just listen I mean I don't have to can do you want to like you still have that weird backlighting thing going on but if you want to yeah go ahead you can stay we can demote you back to the audience if you want um all right so the um the next thing on our agenda was to talk about the Heatherstone project we had talked about it PR previously um and I thought we had a good discussion and then there was this um listening session that TSO held on Monday um which I attended I don't know if anybody else was there because yeah I was there yeah so as is typically the case right it was done as a webinar so you actually have no idea who's in the room unless you're a panelist I guess Gilford was a panelist he knew who was there Gilford how many people were there we had about there's over 12 people who 12 or 14 people who talked and there was another probably close to 10 people who didn't say anything I think Chris was listening in and she didn't want to say anything it was it was a good discussion yeah so gilfred I mean there were I thought it was really helpful that um you gave some updates on the project from what you know was originally sent out including about details of the size of the roundabout the potential takings the some of the other pieces you know even the fact too that it's already going out to bid and everything do you want to fill in some of that additional information for for people who weren't at the listening session um so yeah I mean that we've already bid the we kind of bid this work already because um because we have um the we we just got ahead of the curve on what we're going to do so it's bid um we've kind of laid everything out already there is if we do three mini roundabouts we might take a little four or five square foot piece of property from one one property and that's all we would take everything else will fit in the public way we're shooting for the really small roundabouts the ones that have anywhere from a four to 5 foot in the middle it's meant basically just to be a a horizontal deflection that moves you to moves you to the right back to the left and then you continue down the road um it's not meant to be a vertical deflection where you go up and down all the way down the road like a UMass now yeah do you want to share that picture from the sample I know it was on the I think it's on my I pulled it up too from one of it was it like Portland or something um I actually I don't think I shared that one well you did you did in the meeting you pulled it up but um let me see if I can find it oh actually I can I can hold on I can do this there's music playing in the background huh we believe in you go here I I have the link it's just like your you know you're you're on screen I can share it hold on let me here I have it as well I only got one screen going today so I have to uh all right it's so so this is actually the video oh it's not a picture I have the picture the one that was is it out of the nacto book I have that one actually this is a real one okay so this is is actually D located no is this the one in Arlington no this is actually one one in Portland okay and you can kind of see it's not a big intersection here these are really small roads it's so that's it that's how you do it and that's how big they are that's awesome yeah so one of the things I was well with that particular design like with all that vegetation in the middle like is that actually a good idea and I know that there was a public comment at one of the TSO meetings about how great that can be too but to me like I think that the well I mean one there's the main issues but Al just like in terms of the sight lines like I really don't feel like you'd want to have like much vegetation in those little mini roundabouts I mean we don't necessarily have to have a uh Palmer situation where you have that little planter thing with like nothing in it whatever I don't even know if that was ever intended to be a mini roundabout no that was actually just historic what does that intended to be it's just it's just historic it's actually it's actually one of you don't ask me about it but um so if if you go throughout many of the towns in in Massachusetts you'll see um historic signs that were those guide post which the mile post different towns and that was the one that was in in that's the one that's in it's in Thorndike no is it B no bville Bonville yeah yeah yeah it's in bondsville so that's the historic one for bondsville and so no one wants to really move it because it's historic okay so it's not a mini roundabout it's just a little something in the middle something in the middle yes okay um but I think we would probably leave the plantings out as we play around with these um well so yeah so that's why I wanted to let me see if I can just like share my screen on this but um I'm just going to share I mean so I was just kind of curious especially because you've talked about doing it as a pilot right can people see that so I mean there's these ones that are set up and it looks very temporary right that it has like Signs and or is this like hay bales or something yeah um do you see because you are going to Pilot it first do you see doing something super temporary or would you pave like a curb or something there we're gonna probably pave a curb a curb and then we're gonna pave on top of it and then uh put the color imprint so it's green or something on top of that yeah um the the issue we have is that you could let like a moving van go into neighborhood without having to go through these but then he would probably have to drive the movie band would probably have to drive over one or two of these to get out of the neighborhood um just the way the neighborhoods are set up it's uh in Portland and Arlington and other communities it's kind of easier when you have a parallel Road system because you just go down the next Road um here you can't go down the next Road um so we would probably well I guess can go over to pelum Road I mean um to um uh the next what is that other the one I mean just having a drive having the ability to drive over it's not a big deal right um I mean it keeps the same idea right it's a visual visual reason for you to get to move your car out of the way slow down all that sort of stuff so yeah yes so that that's kind of what we're we're looking at and all right um and then was there any commentary uh I'm I'm sorry I wasn't able to make it was there a commentary regarding the sidewalk well so yeah so Chris I I was interested in actually kind of going through like some of the key elements of what was in The Proposal that um that the town manager and the kilford sent forward to the council so there was this one part with the sidewalk right um there is and so the sidewalk is currently proposed it's proposed to be on the east side and it's proposed to go from pelum road to the north um aubinwood intersection because aubinwood loops around and then it comes out down near like Gate House Road and Stony Hill and things um wait the sidewalk continues on aubinwood or no no no it would just be this section would only be it would be two Heather because they are proposing to repave the road there it would just be from Helm road to the north intersection of au andwood and it wouldn't continue South and Echo Hill to the other parts but but Gilford you were saying at the listening session on Monday right that you would propose like within the you know in the next year or two that you would continue to PVE it and then when you do that you would do the sidewalk yes in the next construction cycle when we're in there we would would just continue with the pavement and with the sidewalk and the sidewalk would be contained within the current um area where the pavement is is that right the pavement is now wide enough to accommodate two lanes of traffic plus a sidewalk right it is yeah so one question I had is just you mentioned on Monday that you have like the cost estimates like and I mean this is a little bit outside of tax scope but is there does adding the sidewalk increase the cost very much or is it not that different than doing the just straight Paving so if we actually if we did away well if if we um we paav the road as wide as it is now it would be basically the same cost so it's a small incremental cost to put the sidewalk in so we can either narrow so even without like with Curbing and stuff it's not like a lot of added cost no because we I mean if we you're going to curb anyway right yeah we are but yeah there is a curb there now there's no curb there now is there uh there's going there's going to be curb on the side with a sidewalk there's actually kind of curb there now there's no curb on the other side there's asphalt curb right yes is that what you would put in we would so unless we narrow the road which we probably wouldn't do because the buses use it um if we don't do the sidewalk we're just going to PVE it the withth it is that's it just going to go put back what was there um if we put the sidewalk in we narrow it a little bit and then so you're actually just taking pavement that would be for the road and raising it up into a sidewalk that's really that's why the price is not really that different than if you did just three surfacing okay that that make sense yeah sort of I just always thought works are really expensive well I guess it depends you don't have any taking right so you you're just using the existing footprint correct so it's it's that's that's why it's just the same and then also right you have to add like the curb Cuts like at the right right correct but that's they're not gonna be concrete they're just gonna be well actually that may be the one cost that we wouldn't have is the because I think we do have to do concrete at then intersections now that's I think it would be really good for the kids in that neighborhood to have this kind of a sidewalk because kids currently ride in the street on Heatherstone Road and the traffic is really fast and having sidewalks there would be great so one thing about so one question I had just you know from the comments I've um heard at the meetings and also just you know from people who've reached out to me about the project is that it I mean I have heard a lot of support for sidewalks in that area um but it's been interesting to me that almost nobody who actually lives on that section of Heatherstone has commented about the sidewalks and whether they want sidewalks in their front yard or not um so I don't know if you if Guilford if you've heard from people I mean somebody anodally told me who lives in Echo Hill like oh in you know in North Echo Hill now people are selling because they don't want a sidewalk on their property on that's there was there was this one older woman right who came to the TSO meeting in March and she said she lives there and she doesn't want to sidewalk and she's the I mean to me I mean I really do like sidewalks a lot I do think that they can improve safety but then I also just worry about if the sidewalk isn't wellmaintained or also the potential burden on those Property Owners particularly like older people or people who don't have the resources and I mean we just have so many sidewalks in town that have like some maintenance issues or that aren't shoveled regularly right like I don't this this sidewalk isn't going to go on your list of things you shovel as a courtesy I'm so it's not proposed so I just don't I just don't know I mean I just I'm wondering too just because we haven't heard from those people um but then also people know that that would that's what it would entail like right so I mean the Echo Hill North they had done a survey in 2016 it's on their website um when there were you know a lot of there was a lot of thinking about speeding the neighborhood and safety and so on and the survey that they did at that time they asked they asked residents if they wanted to have a sidewalk on Heatherstone or avenwood or both or neither and the most popular response was like neither oh that's interesting I live on Heatherstone Road I should have said that to begin with because that's a conflict of interest right but you live on Heather St on the other section I live on the other side of aubinwood where there wouldn't be a sidewalk in this project but I would on the next project yeah continued project in Project yeah so anyway so that's just been something on my mind are just about we do receive many phone calls from people who want sidewalks there so I don't I guess if they did that survey some of the these people must be new or something yeah I don't know I mean it could be a generational thing too yeah I mean I know in that story too they also asked about like do you have kids do you not have kids you know things like that somebody who's against somebody who doesn't want any change and wants the status quo is not g to call the DPW and be like I love this keep it like it is they just don't you know they're not gonna be yeah but they might say well I don't want a sidewalk in front of my property or something you know well I think people are worried about takings of land the only thing I've heard in negative of the people that I talk to is someone was worried that some of their land might be taken and I don't think that's going to be true it sounds like it's going to be fitted fitted within the existing pavement with so yeah although just just to say something the people um actually I can't say I can't say ammer people in New England have the theory that their property goes from the edge of the asphalt all the way into their property they don't believe any of the grass space or any other space that's not paved um whether it's sidewalk or grass is is um on Town property so even if you move a bit into the town property you own that's grass people get upset in this region it's true so um yeah so I guess I mean well and I do like the idea that if the sidewalk is going to be continued within the next few years you know so if you look at the bike ped plan Network's plan from 2019 right it actually recommends as a priority having sidewalks on the other end of Heatherstone like coming up from not that it's Heatherstone but gate Gate House Road like that ends and then coming into the neighborhood um just because there is so much pedestrian traffic in that section of Echo Hill and it it doesn't identify the north section of Heatherstone but if if if there's also going to be improvements there I think like the network is important you know having that whole network and then um and and then hopefully you know there is some work being done on belr Town Road and then also pelum of course we need to do some work on the pelum sidewalks too because I mean one of the things I've heard is that people really are interested in it for like their kids getting to Fort River so yeah pelum is one of the hardest roads we're goingon to have we're going to have we're gonna have the most issues doing any type of improvement other than just Paving it I mean the Echo Hill folks again this is anecdotal and I'm kind of like if you didn't show up at the listening session to say that you don't want the sidewalk I'm not sure why I I don't know I just feel like the onus is on those those property owners who are hesitant about the sidewalk to say something something and if they didn't show up or they haven't shown up and we still haven't gotten any feedback I'm not sure I want I want to spend time on the committee really considering that point of view no no for sure and that said um anyway that said orienting towards the families who are particularly involved in safe roots to school you know sending their kids on bikes to Fort River and and going with them I think they are excited about Heatherstone but only the really the families with the older kids who they know their kids can adequately um you know maneuver around those the obstacles that are in the sidewalks on pelum road so almost everybody says that once the beler Town Road Project is complete or you know we know we're doing phase one which is up to wherever that is Colonial Village from the intersection but they're basically looking forward to that the bike lane and the sidewalk being the way that they would go with younger kids and phase phase phase two or I guess we call they're calling it phase two of belter toown road is probably next year so I think they're they're just thinking that you know when you're there and of course nobody's sending their younger child on a bike by themselves it's the parents going in with the kids on right right you know together and so they're thinking that they would be on the bike lane and that the kid would be on the on the sidewalk on Route n sure that's how they would do it they wouldn't go down pelum road with the younger kids yeah I mean I think some people go on Route n now right so yeah makes sense it's like a wider sidewalk and everything um yeah and I I mean and Chris to your point like I mean I did ask somebody in the neighborhood and you know they have email lists around the neighborhood too and the this person um she she mentioned that like there really hasn't been much discussion or debate about the sidewalk so I mean just you know just as another reference point about if people are waiting in or not yeah I would say the listening session was overall very positive towards everybody wanted to see some form of traffic caling and they saw that roundabouts were the way forward on that one as it's proposed so yeah yeah and I mean in what I heard so right so the project starting from the palum road end right there there's this little median there which it seem I mean I haven't it seems that people sort of universally agree that that should be removed I haven't heard I think I've only heard one comment ever about that it should be kept but the people who are walking on that section of the road were saying that just given car speeds um and the narrowness right there that it may I mean one of the people who lives at Jason said that it does calm the traffic but then it's but it's also just not that safe and you end up on people's like Properties or on the more you know on the west side on the wood in the woods more or something that you just don't have any room to maneuver and so um I mean so right so the proposal Gilford this proposal that's going forward um is to get rid of that median and to do the sidewalk and to do the mini roundabouts yes so I mean that all seems like pretty good if we wantan to if we want to take a vote and support that I mean I do have some some questions about it but um I mean what do what do other committee members think Joe well Tracy when you say questions you're saying that no Ian I have some other questions just about other like other parts of the project too we could just agree that we agree with the con I mean and also just you know when when I when I write up you know our feedback I mean the original memo that went out to the council right it said that the mini roundabouts could be 50 to 90 feet which is a very different scale than what guilford's talking about now where he's talking about four or five feet or five or six feet or whatever right and so at that time and I think that's probably why people were concerned about taking some things because right 50 to 90 ft is a lot bigger than the road right and it's a lot more urban it's a lot more it's not neighborhoody and um and I think the more you know you can break up the lane um more more you can narrow the traveling says when you'll get the um slower traffic I mean because some people in the neighborhood have talked about about how just with the repaving that they feel like the pole slow down the traffic now and once you repave that it could be like a Speedway so that's exactly the case here on Butterfield Terrace so yes Rob I I know Tracy showed some examples of temporary things and I thought maybe there'd be a prefabricated thing perhaps made out of rubber perhaps even like the things that became or at least maybe I became famous for on Lincoln Avenue remember the uh temporary speed bumps I don't know if they exist but have you considered just you know even before putting in the actual paved ones if you're already done that just dropping something like one of those segments there would have about the same size just to see how people respond to it I mean letting them know that it's temporary just so that people get used to it before they start running over something that may be harder we thought about it but we're bet we're we're placing our bets on people are going like and it's going to stay so we're just doing one and out sounds like a good idea I got a lot of uh lot of feedback let's put it that way so so one thing I was wondering about is um that this is you know just in ter terms of the traffic speeds and so on so right so with the sidewalk how W how wide is the road going to be Gilford like I know one section it's going to be narrowed to 24 feet but then yeah actually I was looking for the drawing so is the drawing in the memo or do you have like a more detailed drawing um the one in the memo is all we have oh okay I can pull that up how wide is the pavement now about 30 feet it is but I mean so one thing I was wondering just about just um that a lot of the res a lot of the local roads in Amor right we don't have any pavement striping um on them like to to designate where the lanes are where the side of the road is like Edge lines or anything and that like even though even though a 12 a 24ot road could be considered to be two 12T travel Lanes like in practicality if you're not striping them that they can actually feel like a lot unless you have very dense traffic that you know that all the cars have to stay on their own sides that it can feel like it's a much wider Road um and that that could be contributing to the um that can be contributing to speeding in the neighborhood right so you won't have that at the mini roundabouts but you would have you could have that on the straightaways and in the comments too people have said they're concerned about going south on Heatherstone about like some of the curves and things but is there I mean are there and it is a bus route I mean do does ammer ever stripe lines um no we we don't do that on on local roads so never on local roads the smaller smaller neighborhood roads we we leave them alone um the when we did do a couple of them to try to did delineate and slow people down the majority of the comments we got back were that they thought it sped people up and that it made their street look like it was a a Raceway because it had a it had a line down the middle of it and that it was a a road to drive fast on not a small road so we kind of stopped doing that and haven't gone back to it I was just wondering just because this is also like a bus a bus route and things like that but that's interesting so people would feel like if there's a line down the middle of the road they feel like they should straddle it I'm I'm a little surprised actually they feel they should drive faster that's what you're talking about right there except you're on the wrong side of the road this England where is this I'm assuming Marcus I'm talking on mute for like the last five minutes yeah it's it's um in England um but yeah this is a tiny little you know a little raised hump of acrylic or right sure or whatever I just think it's interesting with these um kind of the curbing here where it's a little less than the you know the the the foot path type but it's enough for someone in a you know in a moving van or whatever to kind of go over so I thought it was kind of interesting yeah and so Gilford so when you're when you're doing the cross Fox like you're the cross box are going to be at these intersections right and but because the sidewalk is only going to be on one side of the street you're not going to have any go across Heatherstone they're all just going to be parallel to Heatherstone is that right yes yeah there's no housing really on the other side except in one little section and then um and how far away from the mini roundabout will the crosswalk it will be pretty close I guess and they'll be they're gonna end up being kind of close so yeah sorry um yeah I mean you got a cross right here too yeah on this one well just for larger roundabouts right you typically want to try to set it back yeah yeah I mean that's still set back like car length fish small car European car but yeah European car yeah so um and then and then also you know at these meetings people have talked a lot about having the 25 M per hour speed limit which is something you know that's allowed under chapter 90 section 17 C where you can have those like across town you can designate either like certain roads or all of town to have the lower speed limit um and I think that's something that's been on Tso's plate I think for since TSO was created or something I think ever since there was that pedestrian fatality on North Pleasant North of Campus that people have asked about that I mean I don't know I guess it's going to come back to the council go for a you have thoughts about it well it um it doesn't do anything for North Pleasant Street so it's only that rule is only meant for streets that don't have a TR traffic regulation on it already so if you have a traffic regulation you can't use that you have to go through the other process of of setting a formal speed limit which actually has become easier to do um but but like some of these towns right like so Northampton and Springfield and I know Pittsville they've all adopted the chapter 90 section 17c yep throughout Town yep so people obey it do people obey it well well first of all it means only roads that don't have posted speed limits that's the speed limit um and then the police have a special way they're supposed to um they can't well actually they the new rule says you can run radar on it now but they have to do it a certain way so but then the police have to write tickets well I think that I mean that's an issue about for the police about how much enforcement they do and so on but also I think I mean just and and people have brought this up in the public comments too and I I know I feel this way that just because you you change the speed limit right unless you change the configuration of the road unless you make changes to the road to actually slow down the cars they won't necessarily slow down just because you change the sign and I think unless you enforce it it's not going and then also enforcement but if you redesign but if you redesign the road to make it slower then people will go slower too um well that's what guilford's doing yeah no of course I mean Guilford is there are there posted sped limits on Heatherstone now um I think it's a de facto route I think it's only 30 although Jason thinks there might be a speed regulation and we keep going back and forth and we haven't found the speed regulation yet oh for specifically for Heatherstone right so if it's yeah what is like the mass Road like like what is the massot like Road inventory show does it show it all doesn't show it okay so the so yeah I mean right now it's either de facto 30 or it's posted 30 and people aren't driving that so you go to 25 what's going to happen yeah I know it's really the area between the curve near Stony Hill and where the island is where the traffic where the speeds are really high where people just fly down I guess they're on their way to work or on their way to the Athletic Club or something but they so Chris by the island do you mean the median the median Med at the end of the road at the North End of the Road from the median to yeah at the North End down to where it takes that curve and goes to Stony Hill right that's kind of a straightaway and people fly through there I saw people actually drag racing um two lanes going in the same direction with no care about if anyone was coming in the opposite direction they really yeah I mean I think that's why I was asking if like the if striping ever helped to designate Lanes um so and you and and you don't think that any um gri you were talking about like not doing any kind of vertical deflection or anything yeah we try even if it's very mild like you know not the not what UMass has done in front of the Mullen Center but something like speed tables or something or just near the you know at the approaches to the neighborhood or something yeah so one thing um sorry give me a second there's these things that we the they use quite a lot at home um and they uh let me sorry share they're not like across the street speed table I don't know I haven't really seen them over here but they're like little squares in the middle speed yeah is that what it is so if you position your car you can go over them just fine but if somebody's coming the other way basically you onto it so you know for buses fire engines that sort of thing they just they plow on through and they're good to go but when you're coming across somebody it tends to push you in the car it onto you know onto the edge or onto the middle of these things so yeah I mean what's been go what's been your experience just with like the like the lower speed tables like um I don't know like on Amity or is a crosswalk they raised it looks like it's raised it is but Amity is Amity is a Amity is a weird creature because people are slowing down you because you have you really are slowing down because if you go you're you're going left even if you're going straight you're going right left you're slowing down and so it gets to the top of the hill and normally they're slowing down so it's um that one we haven't we really haven't seen that much ISS issues with that one um I mean you could put them you could put those along this road but where you going to go I mean you're just going to be raised C raised um B yeah yeah speed bumps they not going well I mean you know some roads have those right like Lincoln I mean my street has them they do really help they're just noisy though that's the thing well that but I was wondering if they're like more like tables if they're lower if they're as noisy but um some people say yes some people say no um I do I do wonder if they rip up the pavement more though like with the plows and stuff but no you really don't it's so anyway okay um do we want to talk about what as a committee we have 20 minutes left and I know we had a couple other things um do does any are you are you gonna make a recommendation on because there the TSO canceled because there was no recommendation so if you don't have a recommendation they they're not going to talk about this well no that's not why they canceled is it because they also had like other I thought they were also doing a waste huler bylaw and things like that they had other items well they cancel they said one of the reasons they cancel they said was because um the AC and ta Tac didn't get back about this what they prop what they recommended well right we told them that we wanted to wait until the listening session which I think makes sense uh so you're saying that safety Transportation issues aren't coming up on the 530 agenda they're not coming up on the Tso's agenda we were they were supposed to meet at 10:00 today and they cancelled they cancel one of the reasons they stayed was because there was no but they they have but um the chair Andy Steinberg had said that they were planning to discuss a lot of traffic related stuff on the 30th is that still the case they do and I don't know how they're going to do it all but they do plan to do that and um and were you going to be at that meeting too me yeah I don't know they were they were going to reach out to DPW and uh yes we're gonna be there and police and stuff talk about speed limits and lots of other things so the question is do we make a recommend or do we want to vote to make a recommendation and have um a memo drawn up and sent it to yeah I mean I would I would I wanted to make a memo for sure yeah um and I think what I what I've been hearing is that we do support support the general plan right to remove the median to do the mini roundabouts do the sidewalk and we're and also with the idea that it's being extended yeah right that those we do support those projects as is um does does anybody want to make a motion on that and we can send that to uh I'll make a motion to support the project as is um the sidewalks the many rotaries in the extension next year okay I can second that okay so we can vote so um I guess we'll take a roll call vote and so uh so uh so let's see Chris yes okay and I'll be a yes Marcus yes okay Stefon yes and Joe if you're here Joe might not Joe said he's also doing Child Care at the same time so okay um you put Joe down as an extension yeah we can put yeah that's what I was goingon to suggest that's where we can we can put him as extension and do we want to make any other recommendation go ahead before you Tracy George would like to say something oh okay hi George please speak did you unmute George I did it takes a little while you know signals going from my house and George's house and I mean George you're welcome to come into the room too that's usually how I do is promote as a panelist yeah that's fine with me he's rejoining as a panelist excellent okay okay here I am um I just wanted to clarify that yes we did not meet today um it wasn't because of uh the fact that you hadn't yet met we realized that um we needed your input and so that was uh something that we were looking forward to getting for our next meeting um we had other issues that uh led to canc um but we appreciate you taking the time to do this and um we will have a challenge on the 30th but um we will be discussing speed limits that is part of the agenda but we will also take up Heatherstone Road um is the plan now is Hen Henry Street still on the agenda or is that gonna get uh not to my knowledge uh I'm not the chair and I'm only the vice chair but the last time I looked at the uh the schedule that that Andy had put out um it had to do with speed limits um we're hoping that uh someone from APD can be there um we're hoping that the town engineer might be able to be there um and that's going to be the main focus but we would also take up Heatherstone Road um great well thank you so that's that's all I wanted to say but thank you thank you no I think that's great I mean one thing I've wondered a lot with speed limits and you know as we've because at previous meetings too we've talked about safe to school it's just how much enforcement there is of speed limits I mean given that um I just want to let you know George as the vice chair um I'm going to go uh work with the fifth grade at Fort River tomorrow who's very interested in doing advocacy around um safe biking for kids and they definitely have the um meeting on the 30th on their radar screen so so um I would imagine that there might be some fifth graders showing up or writing a me you know writing a letter and um something along those lines but I can just talk to you and Andy about that separately but just so you know thank you thank you for that update okay so we took the vote um on the main project do we have any other kind of comments we want to add as well as the committee I mean I I personally think it's worth exploring the town exploring you know chapter 90s section 17 C more um because I do think it can send a message about that you know this is a community that's interested in having lower speeds um even though of course as we've talked about you know the speed limits people don't actually drive a different speed unless you actually do things to the road and or do enforcement um I also had brought up previously about the intersection with pum Road about how it's important I think to um narrow that's the SE Heatherstone how it like widens out it flanges out right there and because part of your part of the memo for the project for this year talked about the crosswalk at um on pelum road at Heatherstone and that just the fact that between you know as you're approaching from the south to to pelum Road right the road is as we said it's what it's 24 30 feet and then but it goes it gets so much wider like right before the intersection um which I think if people are going to use a crosswalk Crossing that section of he um Heatherstone that it does doesn't feel as safe if it's so wide um and I also just had questions about with the um setback like if you made it less wide you could have the stop line closer to the intersection um and then also the sight Lines Just are not that good like to looking to the left for example like with the hill and there's a bit of a curve and things and it's it feels to me like it would be safer if it was narrower and I don't know I mean I understand if that's not part of the current project but that could be a suggestion um cuz go were you going to do anything you are going to do cross there but are you going to do any kind of narrowing there or is that outside of the scope of this we probably will narrow it up a little bit the road is actually on some people's property in that those two corners so we'll probably try to narrow down some that'd be great I mean it is like it is significantly wider have you measured how wider it is it feels it is but I think it has to do more with the fact how narrow um pum road is and ah um pum road is really the layouts W narrow the road is I think the road is barely 20 feet wide in most of it so it's yeah it's it's something that that's something we talked about with the fifth graders is you got all the stuff you want to put in the road but you only have so much space which belongs to you to put in the road right right that's why pelum road is going to be more of an issue if you really want to do some improvements you gotta start taking people's properties along pelum Road not the whole property but understanding I understand that um and then I'd noticed too that there was like with those the cross streets like one of the two of the streets have um some kind of street light but the other one doesn't and one of the things that people so with the so you're proposing currently to do three mini roundabouts two to three two to three okay so I guess there is one of the streets I is it fine I wrote it down but I can't I don't know where but one of those streets right now doesn't have a light there at all and some people have talked about how dark it is including as you approach pum Road oh actually they all have lights oh or maybe it's trees I don't know one fell over so oh there there is accommodations for lights at every intersection it's just one of them actually fell over oh all right so it's not there because we're out of poles oh got it okay um yeah and we could also just comment just about the importance of these other connections you know Chris as you were saying U belter toown Road and things do we feel comfortable as a committee kind of adding those comments into yeah I mean I would want the memo to sort of be strongly in support based on the pieces that we've talked about the rotaries is the traffic calming and the sidewalks roundabouts yeah Sor yeah you keep that and I'll keep screwing that but I don't mind other sort of recommendations or considerations that we think you know could either be Alternatives maybe on down the line or just you know where this you know what's um uh further extensions and connections with the other projects you know well I'll um when I write up the memo I mean I'll circulate it before I submit it for ts's feedback so um I can look at a little of that I mean did uh Stefan Marcus Joe do you guys have any comment on those elements no we're good good okay great all right so um all right well then I'll circulate it around and then we we will submit it to TSO thanks Tracy so um we can also get Kim's feedback which I'm sure will be helpful she's a great editor all right so let's see other items and I know we're kind of getting close to the hour so I'll try to keep it pretty short um so there is this meeting on the 30th with TSO you know where they're supposed to talk about traffic calming speed limits and so on um I'm just including that is informational um when I talked to the chair he he had said you know he would invite that t people could be invited to participate as panelists um so I'll probably do so and it sounds like Chris that you're planning to come and talk about some safe roots to school related well I mean I it sound I'm going to be talking to fifth grade we're planning to come all right so George does have his hand up I don't know if it would be a good time to just yeah I don't know George is George still yeah just uh delighted to hear the fifth graders are thinking of coming um I just wanted to encourage that um and if they could also send written comments um and and Christine certainly reach out to but that would be great and um and I submitted um some written comments related to some of the safe root School issues that have come up with school zones and so on already so we'll make sure that we put we'll make sure those are shared with the whole TSO so thank you um see other items were just this idea of the Transportation Commission so our next meeting if assuming we have a quorum will be on May 30th the manager said that he would like to be on the agenda um to talk about the creation of a Transportation Commission I know that he's been working on the draft charge I had seen something I don't know probably like three or four five months ago um and it was also being reviewed internally at Town Hall but so he'd like to bring that back to us and get our feedback and then bring it forward to council so so it's great great to hear that that's moving forward and I don't have any other big updates does anybody else have any updates well I do have this one item that Stefan mentioned s of last minute but anything else nope NOP okay um so Stefan brought up to my attention and and we I guess we could consider this under you know topics not reasonably anticipated um but before we do that is everyone who is here now we have five of our six members here are people all available on the 30th for the next TSO meeting is that GNA work I'm blind without my phone um is that a THS is that that's a Thursday it's two Thursdays from now so it's the same so the TSO is that the TSO meets in the morning now so TSO meets at 10 it's a lot of Transportation I I can do that okay um and I did contact the town manager yesterday just to confirm that he still wants to be on the agenda for 30th but I haven't heard back from him um so Stefan Joe Marcus does that all work for you yeah we good okay cool alrighty um all right so Stefan let's bring up your the the question that was raised to you sure um I mean yeah let me just look at my email just actually lost it had 3 seconds ago go but or if you even want to like put it up on your you can share your screen or something if that's easiest but um sure I can let me see here let me just log into my gmail because I I don't have the or I can share it either way actually if you want to pull it up that might be easier that's fine okay thank you I was on my I was looking at my phone um meetings on my computer no it's all good let's see all right but yeah it was it was sent two weeks ago and honestly got buried in my inbox and then I that's right Tracy I didn't remember until tonight let me just okay let me I'm just gonna pull up open any here here go so all right I'm sharing my screen here okay so what this was is this is a um so this was far from Stefan right before this meeting this afternoon and the person was asking for um they had a question about the S South amers roundabout I think I want to do a little educational campaign about rotary's roundabouts anyway but um about the one um in South amers and if they could if there could be some signage about bikes having the full Lane which I think there is signage like that in on the um the one at triangle and E Pleasant is that correct Gilford yeah there's supposed to be signage on this one too but if it hasn't been put up yet it just might be an oversight okay because this we we we do the signage the contractor doesn't usually do the signage all right so I'll have to check I'll get the guys who work I'll forward that to you I'll forward it to you and Jason you guys can just check check on it and do you also do do you do pavement markings as well related to the bikes we do some not all of them because the the really nice ones are done by a contractor and then we just do some the minor ones so what how is it like if I was a bicyclist entering the roundabout what is it what what is the payment what is the payment marking that you use we won't use a pavment marking for that we use the sign that says you're you can use the whole line okay you just have the signage got it yep and is that signage then on all like four approaches or just it is usually okay great well there you go hopefully we can solve it pretty fast simple thank you and have you gotten just I'm just curious have you gotten much feedback about the south amoris roundabout um most people like it there's a few people who hate it but then they actually hate every roundabout in town and the one at Route 9 and 91 as well so well that one's pretty bad that one's pretty complicated so yeah that one's a good one I like that that's a yeah the one at n and 91 is awesome it's just so comp I mean the singling round no I mean I can understand like I mean I volunteer sometime with um ammer neighbors and they have people who are like afraid to drive like through that and in terms of safety particularly bicycle and pedestrian safety I mean it's prettyy obvious the safety benefits about single roundabouts because but like the larger roundabouts are a lot more complicated and yes you don't have as many you know fatalities of them as you do it like four-way intersections but um but I can understand why people are intimidated by them so but at the same time that's a good thing right because it slows you down I mean that's kind of half the half the thing about it is it gets you going slow whether it's because you're scared witless or you're just trying to be careful it but also sometimes people like I was at the one on 90 the route 991 one actually I was getting off 91 there Northbound and I was going down the exit ramp and there was somebody who got turned around on the roundabout and they were coming up the exit ramp and that was like right after they had redesigned it and they didn't have sufficient signage to say please don't go up the wrong way on to 9 one and uh I contacted District 2 right away and after a while they put up more signage but um but that was pretty scary I mean people really don't always know what's going on but they yeah they do that they do that at a at a normal you know onramp too so it's not not not rotary related yeah I think it is a little but anyway anyway so um yeah okay I'm going to leave now no that's great thank you thank for being here and I think we're we're done right we're done for now yeah I think so and um okay all right thank you all yep thank you bye