##VIDEO ID:GeFd8vZjtJM## and we're live all right the chair notes the time is 6:03 I call this meeting of the Amorous zoning board of appeals to order my name is Steve judge as zba chair I want to welcome everyone to this meeting we'll begin with the Roll Call of the zva members Steve judge is present uh Mr Craig Meadows present Mr edal Henry present Mr Philip White is not here and Mr stav sler is not here but we have a quorum for taking testimony a quorum uh three is permitted we have we need at least three to take testimony also attending the public hearing tonight is Knight Malloy will be on um and Jinta Williams a planner for the town and we also have an attendance attorney Carolyn Murray of KP law to provide us guidance and assistance pursuing to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extend by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to observe the meeting May do so via Zoom or by telephone no inperson attendance of the members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means the zoning board of appeals is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 48 of the general laws of the Commonwealth with the purpose of proning the health safety safety convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of amorist in accordance with the provisions of Massachusetts general laws chapter 48 and article 10 special permit granting authority of the Amorous zoning bylaw this public meeting has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties of Interest all hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by Town staff and may be viewed via the town of ammer YouTube channel and zba web page the procedure is as follows the petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing after which the board will ask questions for clarifications or for additional information after the board has completed its questions the board will seek public input the public speaks with the permission of the chair if a member of the public wishes to speak they should so indicate by using the raised hand function on their screen or by pressing star n on their phone the chair with the assistance of the staff will call upon people wishing to speak when you are recognized provide your name address to to the board for the record all questions and comments must be addressed to the board the board will normally hold public hearings where information about the project and input from the public is gathered followed by a public meeting for each the public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment if the board feels it has enough information and time it will decide upon the applications tonight each petition that's heard by the board is distinct and is eval evaluated on its own merits and the board is not ruled by precedent statutorily for a special permit the board has 90 days from the close of hearing to file the decision for a variance the board has 100 days from the date of filing for the variance to file this decision no decision is final until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members and is filed in the town clerk's office once the decision is filed with the town clerk there's a 20-day appeal period for an agreeed party to contest the decision with the relevant judicial body in Superior Court after the appal period the permit must be recorded with a registry of deeds to take effect tonight's agenda a public hearing on zba FY 202-4311 Southeast street map 14a parcel 20 in the RVC Village Center residence zoning District in a 47 unit mixed income metal housing in three St in a three-story building with 46 proposed parking spots on the premises of 70 belter town road map parcel 15 C 58 15 c59 15 C60 in RN and FPC neighborhood residence and flood prone Conservancy zoning District this is continued from our September 26th meeting 2024 also tonight CBA FY 2024-the requests for a special permit under sections 6.3 and 5.10 of the zoning bylaw to create a flag lot to construct a single family house on the premisis at 47 Redgate Lane map 11d parcel 166 RN neighborhood residence zoning District this is continued from our July 11th 2024 hearing following that there's a there's a general public comment period and then there's a period of new business and four business not anticipated within the last 48 hours before we begin tonight I want to start say something at the start of the hearing we don't have a sufficient number of members in paneled for the zba 2027 2024-25 Redgate Lane special permit application to decide that issue tonight the applicant has agreed to continue the hearing until October 2th 4th I suspect that there might be members of the public who are attending this hearing because they are interested in this application and I want to let them know that we will that we will be considering a motion to move that to uh the October 24th so to begin with I would like to entertain a motion to continue the motion the public hearing on zba FY 20247 47 Redgate Lane until October 24th at 6 p.m. do I have motion I moved and seconded any discussion no discussion the vote occurs on the motion to continue the hearing on zbf y202 24-17 until October 24th at 6m the chair votes I Mr Meadows I Mr Henry I vote is three to nothing the vote passes now let's turn to the first item on the agenda tonight zba FY 20254 for wayfinders Inc requesting a special uh a comprehensive permit for 31 Southeast Street and for 70 belter Town Road this is is continued from September 26th 2024 meeting there have been a number of submissions since that time uh since our meeting I want to read through those uh first there was a submission from the app these are all from the applicant affordability excerpts from the from their comprehensive permit application this was submitted on October 4th a management plan documents also submitted on October 4th I think those came from the original highlights from the original application as well uh zbaa rental bylaw waiver request I think that's the original there's a HUD hqs which I think is housing quality services inspection checklist that was um submitted October 10th the second one was also submitted there was a form as opposed to a checklist that was also submitted October 10th a man management plan excerpt wayfinders comprehensive permit applications that's an excerpt from the management plan from the original application with that excerpt was submitted on October 4th a laundry room um design memo submitted October 4th photometric um belter toown for belter toown road that was submitted October 4th photometric for Southeast Street that was also submitted October 4th a rental bylaw waiver draft from 1042 24 it looks like there's a second one as well I don't know if it's a different waiver but we have a second waiver request um draft of 104 2024 uh we have some architectural drawings for the rooftop equipment from um for both sites as well as additional hearing materials uh submitted on October 20 October 4th 2024 I think that is all the material that has been submitted is there anything else um Miss Williams from the applicant not at this time no and is there any other staff or public submissions that I am unaware of um just the update from the Wetland administrator that I sent earlier today oh that's right y I saw that um so we had two comment we comments on both sites from the Wetland administrator I think both um one of the one of the provisions uh one site has been approved and one site needs to needs additional information if I read those correctly and that's correct and the applicant can give us more information on that but I think there's been progress on the concom front uh in the last week so what I'd like to do I know I know this week we were going to focus on a couple of things we had questions about um lighting some mitts but lighting we had um questions about um lighting sight of the HVAC equipment on the top of the roofs and the laundry with with three questions we had from last week and I know you've responded to all of those as well as the waiver requests so let's dispose of those first since that's the questions from the last meeting and then we can go into the subject matter of the meeting tonight which is um Property Management income restrictions and the financials how does that work Mr grber that that sounds good all right great thank you um I there okay yeah I was going to ask if Bruce could be um Bruce ER from wayfinders could be included as a panelist and and he is so thank you there we go and I see Mr uh who's going to represent who's going to make the presentation for you guys on those um issues that Mr erck okay all right give us your name and address for the record Mr erck and you may proceed uh Bruce erck I'm the senior vice president for Real Estate development at wayfinders great all right so um questions on the first one was on the um the photometrics and the lighting for the two sites and and I I'll be I'll be presenting those um it's my name Jamie James Gruber uh on behalf of wayfinder 1780 Main Street Springfield Massachusetts great so we'll start with the I guess the photometric plans and our architect um Andrew uh bston from the narrowgate will be here as as as as well um okay great let me uh share my screen okay great are you all able to see my screen yep okay perfect um so here's the photometric plan for Southeast Street uh the building is located here um uh this is the new portion new construction portion the school is here this is the existing parking area um these these small areas here are are the um the foot candles um associated with um the current uh lighting that is proposed we have um all the lighting fixtures have been selected to minimize the um light trass beyond the uh beyond the property um they're they're all dark sky compliant um and uh they're restricted from providing any light from above um the the path of egis from the building and that sort of thing will be illuminated during night hours for safe entrances um and uh lighting will operate from Dust to Dawn with the motion sensors to dim down um to 30% um during periods of in inactivity to um to meet with current code requirements uh lighting Control Systems will help ensure that lighting is dimmed um during the evening hours um and when the exterior parking pathways are not occupied um and uh we don't anticipate any waivers needed um with this design as it uh currently um is in accordance with the um the town's bylaws so there's uh there's a couple different lights these are the um the fixtures are in this um style and we have have uh these are called uh they're about you know light ballards or 10ft tall ballards along here and along the path they illuminate the um the parking area and we have a few um exterior lights on the um EX on the building that um provide illumination for um the the entrance area back here and a light baller here um and then a couple of the light poles back here that are um slightly higher at the 20 ft so this is the um the lighting plan at Southeast Street are there any questions I have just a quick question on our what we received I couldn't see the colors but it looks to me if you can just increase it the magnification just a bit and scroll over so that there's some of the blue um looks to me like Blues are all zeros I mean there's there's no light tra trespass Beyond or in the blue area and that's bordering the neighboring property and the the Reds the red coloration numbers are kind of transition and then the green is what's intend would it will be lit is that correct um yeah I need to confirm with the with the architect on that the way that I was I was reading the plans is that they um they just denoted the different uh the different areas so yes the the pavement areas are are shown in green and the transition areas are in red and the um the average of the transition areas are 1.2 uh you know foot candles and then the pavement area is an average of 2. so brighter so that seems to track with what um you're saying yeah my eyes aren't good enough to read what the numbers are in the Blues but it seems to me the numbers in the Blues are zero that's correct y all right that's the only and that that applies for both drawings and so that's my that's my one question okay any members of the board have questions regarding the photometric plans could you repeat again what the averages are in the different areas and I and and zoom in so that we could see okay so the average in the um in the red or maroon zone is uh 1.2 uh foot candles in the in the average in the uh pavement zone is um 28 2.8 okay I can I can scroll in here so here's the entrance to the parking area this is the um the the Courtyard area there's a walkway here there's a a front entrance right here in the building here's another entrance on the um I guess the the first the first floor in this in this building that's that the stairs lead up to then in the in the rear portion of the building this is the area of the parking back there some of the areas look rather high as far as the amount of foot candles in in particular spaces is that because you couldn't spread the uh lights out a little bit more um when you say high is there is there a particular area that year is it I see fives I see sevens in this area here yeah it it appears that there's there's there's a you know a light baller here and a light baller here as well and there's a kind of a Crossing there so it's not shown on this plan but um there is a a ramp here that that that goes across here that um you know that would that would be the access I guess to the to the rear portion um so that that that could be a reason for that that they wanted to illuminate the area where where there is actually a designated Crossing but I can confirm that please okay thank you so you can just confirm that and just let the staff know confirm that with the architect and and let us know okay okay lighting designer and then are you able to see the photometric plan here for Bel Town room yes a Qui question can we confirm via email so that you know if it's true do we not have to bring it up at the next meeting that's all I'm just questioning and and you are Michelle yeah Michelle mcad there sorry I'm I'm a senior project manager at wayfinders I think Mr Meadows you'd be happier if it's confirmed by email wouldn't you that'll be fine y okay so so this is the um the the front portion of the site here where the the driveway access comes in and then we have the parking area in the uh in the rear of the site with a um we have the the light Ballard along the side here that where there's a walkway here and it illuminates the um the the the driveway this is the rear uh Courtyard portion of the of the building and this is the the front front entry the covered covered entry here um similar the fixtures are um a a little bit different style um but they are all dark dark sky compliant um and these are these are the uh what's what's what's proposed there's going to be a uh 10 foot tall version of that as well as a um slightly taller 20 foot version in the uh rear of the of the um Pro property in parking lot area and I'm happy to scroll through this and we can kind of take a look see where those those lights are located few ballards out here P there and the averages are are shown here so on the pavement area it's a 1.7 Hood candle and then in the maroon Zone it's A6 can you help me out what are the what's the red line both on the right hand and leftand side that's the approximate property line property line okay so you do have some trespass over the neighbors and um who's what's the neighboring property I forget on the on the left hand side this drawing it's a um it's a a single uh single family home in between um I I'm trying to think what the adjacent property is is is it the service station uh next to that or a I can look look that up okay we've talked to the pro I mean have you had conversations with the property owner there um yeah we've we've been in communication um with with the property owner there and uh you know throughout the development and the result of that conversation that they are um copasetic with your lighting plan have you talk to them specifically about that I guess that would be my only question okay I'm you know I'm happy to I'm happy to do that with the with the lighting plan to uh to show them what that is discuss that with them yeah just just discuss it and then you can um let us know of your conversation with them via email as well and okay of course if they have if they wish to speak they may do so at the next meeting but um that' be good if you do that okay great anybody else have questions regarding the photometric plan no Mr chair good all right oh where are the 20 foot ones again are those way in the back those the 20 foot lights way in the back yeah they're in this so they're um denoted by the the lp1 and it looks like this this sort of rectangular symbol so it we have one here one here one here one here and here here yeah they're they pretty much surround the parking area surround the parking area okay all right okay that's I have no further questions about the lighting plan okay let's move on to um we were going to talk about about the um HVAC on the rooftop I notic you you sent us some drawings regarding that or renderings I guess they're not drawings yes and uh let me share that are you able to see my screen yep okay great yeah so um this is 31 Southeast Street uh the architect had um you know modeled um um the the the equipment to um some you know some generalized shapes here um in the in the scale and location that they're um currently proposed on the plans um they are uh this is the the rooftop equipment so um this is you know on top of the school here and then on the flat roof um in this in this location here um behind the the back of the um the the SLO the roof in the front of the building here so um they had taken um the the software that they use to you know represent what you know you might see from the common and um you know from that you you you wouldn't it it wouldn't appear to project above the uh The Ridge of the roof here and um as well as the um this the school building here what you see here is the um the elevator um like the the top portion of the elevator uh um part of the building here so so essentially it's not going to be visible from the streets yeah correct correct from yeah from from 31 Southeast Street as you go further back you might see you know it might it I think it projects a foot or so like a couple of the pieces right here may project a foot above the ridge so you'd have to travel back um like 80 or 90 feet from the property line to just see you know the small portion that um Peaks up above that thank you could you find out for for us please the lengths of the runs from the vrfs to the to well each of the lengths of the runs please okay to the terminal units yeah and I think that's why they're split up um and when they went over that um the the I should have asked the question then but I I didn't okay I'd like to know now okay okay all right all right and I can show M Mr chair sorry y yes goad uh Andrew bankon uh narrowgate architecture uh were headquartered in in Boston I just wanted to uh uh just quick clarification from Mr Meadows the um the um the refrigerant runs from the rooftop units to the air handlers within each unit just an average run of the refrigerant not the average uh the longest the the exact lengths of the different runs please from the from the vrf to the terminal unit okay okay um for each unit yes please got it thank you thank you sir again Mr Meadows they can submit that for the record and we can review it next at our next meeting is that great I'm sorry Steve I should have said that more clearly they can email that material into the into the planning staff they can share it with us and if we need if need be we can talk about it next week yes okay all right let's look at uh 70 belter Town Road I'm assuming first off You' got the same question Mr Meadows is that right yes even more so there okay so um the this is the the rooftop equipment here um that's located on the roof behind the the pitch portion of the roof and the um the architect showed a couple of the areas that you um could see a small portion of the uh equipment from the rear of the building uh the parking area so that's that's where we would anticipate that you know it it it would be visible and that's why it's shown um from these two Vantage points and it's behind the um the ridge of the roof here so it's not visible from belter toown Road CU it's behind the bridge yes okay all righty we just have the same question regarding the runs for this property okay all right what the next thing we're looking at um laundry facilities yeah and um uh at our last meeting there was some interest in seeing if you could explore um possibilities of additional laundry facilities in both buildings yeah and and and we did that we um we we performed that exercise with uh with with the architect and the and the design team um what we found at uh belur Town Road um or or I'll start with South 31 Southeast Street is that um there there wasn't any sort of surplus area um to add in a a laundry um room uh on on each level and um so it would either require you know removing a bedroom uh on one floor on on each floor or you know um to to make space for it or building out the the footprint um of the building um additionally at that site it's sort of a split level um you know configuration with the school um building floors being offset from the new construction portion so you know someone somewhere would have to take the take the elevator so you know the people in the school would still either have to take the stairs of the elevator to get to a laundry facility um and what you know there was also a a bunch of concerns sort of from property from our property management staff and and sort of operations kind of just you know being able to um you know Monitor and uh one one location and um that's why the preferred method there for wayfinders would be to have it you know on the uh on on one room in in the lowest level and um a a big portion of that as well is that um the way we're able to um work with a vendor that um provides the laundry machines that also has a a a service schedule that um can keep the machines up and running um one of the issues that our team has run into with the you know the 800 units that you know we we manage was that when a laundry machine goes down it would be down for a little while and um it it just you know the the vendor is able to have that up and running within 48 hours which actually you know provides a better service um you know for the for the residents using the machine um and along with monitoring that they're able to provide when the when the machines are are kind of grouped together in a in a larger um configuration um so where you know they can tell on their app that there's open machines they can pay through that um you know more easily than if it's if it's um if it's split up it doesn't we're not able to provide that so that's why so at 31 Southeast Street we we' prefer to have one laundry room in the lowest level there um so you this will apply to both places you manage a lot of units do you have have other units other developments where you have multiple laundry facilities in in your buildings and have you had that exp are you speaking from experience or have you always had single locations for laundry and and you're just speaking from the experience of having a single location well we have single locations like the the building that I'm in now is a is a single location um with you know two and three bedroom units and it's in its um elevator access and in they're all in uh one location um one of the one of the adjacent buildings has laundry facilities on on every floor um however with the um the way that you know the the laundry machines are I guess designated for the amount of units on each floor is that it it turns out that you know there's there's like the the 1 to 10 ratio which is is is the code is provided I guess you know on um you know on on each floor and what they've found is that you know they're able to provide the monitoring service the the the vendor is able to provide the monitoring service so people can check and see when those you know machines are running and it looks like uh Bruce did you want to say something yeah I think I'm not on mute am I no I think maybe I was about to say what picking up on your thing is that it's not just that the leasing company can better monitor the machines but the leasing company it's a very technologically sophistic package they can provide um when they've got a certain economy of scale where all of the residents in the building can have an app and that app will tell them which machines are available it'll tell them when their laundry is done and so you know instead of having to go down as a machine available or is it not available is my laundry done they our leasing company provides that technology to the residents and they can also pay for the machines on their phone so the whole issue of you know making sure that there's enough coins available doesn't exist that ability to provide that level of service to the tenants um with the app is they they they cannot they've told us they cannot do that if you have two machines here and two machines there and two machines there they they want a you know certain economy of scale or centralization of the facility for them to provide that those bells and whistles for the for the tenants well I mean I I know I'm a little bit familiar with that my daughter had in college she was able to stay in a room and um monitor her laundry easily through an app on her phone it works it works well um I think that's a a really good feature and does reduce the sort of burden of having a single space but I'm surprised that in this day and age you can't it has to be a single location I don't think the machines have to talk to each other but or perhaps there's a a Wi-Fi I don't know it doesn't I'm surprised that that's the reason that they can't multiple locations but I have to leave that up to the to you guys to judge that and to the the vendor um you did look at so it's it's it's for that reason as as opposed to having to run extra lines from especially on the belr Town Road site there seemed to be you know some room underneath the eaves of the third floor that you could do that but so the the real limitation is as much the technological advantage of having the app and the need the need to have the app to have the washers dryers all in the same place and not the cost of running extra sewage L extra um lines water lines down and and sewage lines down from the third floor location is that you're telling me that's the issue is more than the cost of constructing a second site for laundry you know it's it's it's sort of multiple factors have of you know some of it is convenience for the tenants um some of it is there is or is not availability of square footage to actually put the laundry there um without disrupting some you know all of the space is programmed in the buildings right and in in as Jamie said in the Southeast Street site it's much tighter you know you know we'd have to remove um remove a unit remove a bedroom I don't think expanding the footprint out of the question at this point um on on the uh belr toown Road Site you know I'll leave it to Jamie or Andrew to respond but but the main thing is there were multiple factors and there's not like one single slam dunk we can't do it because of this but we're looking at you know the design the maintenance the functionality for the residence and then unbalance you know in some cases we just can't do it but in other cases we think unbalance it's a better decision but let me I'll I'll turn over to Jamie or Andrew and it's yeah and it's and it's and it's for all those it's it's for all those reasons combined and we just feel that that that is able to provide the you know the best level of service service for the residents as well as um the best you know op from an operation standpoint um for for our team and that's and that's why that's why it was designed that way um you know initially and that's why we'd like to you know have it remain you haven't said that I thought you would is that it would be noisy for if if you're living underneath a washing machine well well that is that actually that is one of the things that property management oh yeah yeah no actually right Jamie we we talk so much about this is that when the machines are on the floor next to residential units you have to restrict the hours so that somebody it's not necessarily top to bottom but next door you don't want somebody doing their laundry at midnight um the current location of the laundry rooms one is in the basement of Southeast Street and the other one is in the rear first floor second C of um uh of the belr toown road property um which has either no or very limited adjacency to any residential units and so we can run those those laundry rooms may be available 24 hours but they're certainly not going to be limited to you know like 8:00 am to 10 p.m which you would do when you locate a laundry room next to a residential unit I've got to say that we're we're working on about 46 buildings in New York City right now between five stories and 21 stories tall they all have the laundry rooms in the basement and when I go to do my laundry in New York I set the timer on my phone I I've never seen a problem and I think the app helps a lot if that's going to be available that could be great yeah is there any is there any consideration for people who may not have smartphones um they're able to use the uh the the pay kiosks and and use it uh you know via a card and and pay the uh pay the fees that that way for the long okay so pay and you can monitor it via online as well if you have a computer so the monitoring you have you'd have to be connected to to to benefit from the monitoring but payment is all on either card or app it's not going to be by cash is that correct you won't be correct correct you would load the card with cash with the with a kiosk machine okay all right other questions board members regarding laundry all right on this one I'm I'm just I'm expecting that there might be questions next week on this again so because two of our members aren't here but um i' you've satisfied you've answered my questions and um it may come up again next week um the next item is the waiver a request wer of the residential bylaw waiver and I know you've come up with a a new version of your waiver request which wouldn't exempt you from the from the registration but you would not have any inspections is please uh can you give us a just what your thought is on that and describe the the new waiver request um yeah sure that's uh we would be um we would be waving the in inspection the the fiveyear inspection due to the um the the numerous other inspections that the buildings are uh subject to um through the um you know through the state regulatory agencies um that's based on the funding um there are you know there are several um one of them that's is the low-income housing tax credit um it's a it's a service that is it's so that it shows that it's in compliance with e hlc um the funding source that you know at least every three years um after there's a physical inspection of all buildings um in the project you know and um there's uh you know 20% of the projects um low you know low income or tax credit units would be inspected and the common areas um in you know in addition to the unit inspections there will be site ground and building exterior and common areas um you know the Building Systems would be physically inspected um and then there's there's another also another compliance um agency that um our property and asset management work with um to provide the CL that that provides compliance services to eohc the the for some of the other state funding sources and they they also um inspect the units um the units with Section 8 and Project based vouchers are inspected annually um there's also um the you know massachusett rental Voucher Program MVPs are are inspected at initial Lisa um in addition we have inspections from our insurance um from some some of our funders and um and typically the uh inspections uh utilize the the forms the uh hqs um form and checklist that uh I that you mentioned earlier in the um in the uh in in the meeting in the that's a HUD um housing quality standards uh inspection form is what that is so we request a waiver from the the fiveyear in inspection um due to the um the inspections that the the buildings will already be subject to through our other um you know regulatory requirements for compliance well my my thought on this is that those all those inspections have a specific purpose some of them are um are for funding some of them are for compliance with the I think for compliance with the health safety requirements um but the town the town has their own purpose for their their inspection as well I meanone I don't think HUD or anybody else is going to is going to inspect to make sure that the building uh comports and the site plan is being followed the building comports with the with the site plans um there's things that the the town requires um for all housing that has to be um inspected by any rental any rental operation in in the city or in the town uh and I have a hard time um seeing why this rather large development rental unit shouldn't have the same inspection that any other um large rental development would have in the town of amers all those I understand the reason for all those other inspections they're they have their own purpose but I'm I'm not sure why this one should be different and I know it's I saw your your concern that it could cost 1,000 bucks per unit per development per site per year to do that and that's I I believe that's probably right I it may cost you 2,000 bucks a year to do that but you've got you know 70 some units and and I think the my concern is that there's no I don't see a reason I don't think youve made a case to me tell me that that it's persuading me that you should not have the same compliance with the rental regulation that everybody else does I know that the Building Commissioner had some problems as well with the waiver request and um I don't know if anybody can speak to I I'll wait for other board members to speak before I ask the staff to speak to it go ahead Mr yeah um well I the the bylaw itself has a provision in it that you know suggests that you know um you can request a waiver if if the property is subject to other regulatory inspections which which these are and um you know any and it's my understanding that any of anything that would fall under the category of something that is non-compliance right would be report would be something reportable and that wouldn't fall under um you know like a waiver that would would sort of um I guess would wave a you know a certain period of inspection like if there's something that is wrong there's always an inspection that could follow that and maybe maybe I misunderstood that um or the uh you know the the the zoning or the Building Commissioner would be able to speak to that is that if they're you know in compliance with the site plan if for some reason that it were to fall out of compliance with the site plan the town would still be able to inspect the property based on that complaint but they wouldn't know that until they inspected it unless there was a complaint from somebody who was not knowable about what the specifics of the site plan was and what the conditions of the special permit were and everything else and maybe somebody is um knowledgeable of the numerous conditions and the stuff in the site plan but uh it may not be obvious all the time so it's a you wouldn't have you wouldn't know about it unless it some cases you wouldn't know about unless there was an inspection whereas others you would um so I'm I I I have concerns as to Mr judge so Mr grber my question is the waiver that you're asking for have you compared the town's inspections to the other inspections that are done to see if there's any overlap to say here's an overlap and here's another reason why we're asking for a waiver it's it's my understanding that the um hqs or or housing quality standard forms are what is typically used um by the town or by a Housing Authority that would in inspect it on behalf of a municipality so I would I I have not seen the inspection form um specific to the to the town to be able to compare those I mean that's something that that we could we could we could do we could certainly do and and show the overlap um I I think that may make sense again I do have concerns that five years of that inspection on such large units um that seems a bit problematic if again appreciating that there's other inspections done but if the inspections are not what the town is inspecting for that's where my concern [Music] lies I would I'd like to at least see a spreadsheet that indicate you must have a check off list for each one of these in types of inspections if you could if you could take a spreadsheet and uh give us the list of in types of inspections to include the towns and what each one of them encompasses so that we could see what is covered and what isn't covered yeah okay so we see what the effect of the waiver would be on inspections I think Mr erck has his hand raised Mr chair oh Mr erck go ahead Oh Oh I thought I'd put my hand down but since it's still up I'll just say you know again most of the other inspections have to do with the physical quality of the living interior spaces and to do with affordability compliance so most of the other inspections are primarily going to be focused on what the inside of the property is like as a living environment as and and on the affordability compliance for what I'm hearing and we will do this this grid uh that Mr Meadows uh requested uh you know comparison it's probably things like site plan I I believe there's already a storm water um kind of thirdparty monitoring that that may be involved but my guess it's going to be primarily exterior things but we'll do the homework on this but there's also and the other thing is that we would look at what conditions are placed on on the property and the inspection would also so look to see if those conditions are being complied with and a federal form is not or federal inspection form is probably not going to be able to pick that up so we that's something we that would be um a difference between I think the the inspections required by the town inspections that you probably undergo for other reasons so that should I look forward to the the chart showing us what the differences are um and so I guess I guess the thing do is to somebody contact The Building Commissioner to understand what the scope of their inspection would be and use that as the um comparison to the other other inspections okay Mr chair may make one more ask and this is not of w not of wayfinders but um Mr Williams if if the BW allows us to wave the inspection um are there any provisions that would allow us to wave the inspection fee given that we can wave the inspection if cost is a factor here and if we're going to say we're not on board with waving the inspection is there any wigger room to wave the inspection fee if that's something that can be reported back to the committee that' be helpful I can look into that so you guys you guys are going to come up with a I'm just writing down the the the takeaways here you guys are going to come up with with a chart comparing inspection um regimes for lack of a better and we're going to have um a um statement or analysis of whether the the inspection fee can be waved if the if the waiver doesn't they still comply with the rental um regulations right is that what you're asking Mr Henry and the Feb way even if they are they have to comply with the the the rental uh rental residential rental provision all right is that something we can do in a week or is that going to take some time this FR and I know that you've been working on this um is that something you can do for next week is that going to take a little bit of time to compare to do the comparison um I believe we can do it for next week well if we can that that'd be great if not just let us know I yeah I don't want to let it go too long Mr Malloy I see you have your hand up sure thanks yeah so the Building Commissioner still recommends not granting this waiver and you know I haven't talked to Jamie or the wayfinders team yet but you know it's as you mentioned Steve it's it's information that's not collected elsewhere and so for the first five years of new construction it doesn't get inspected and then after that you know it could be on a case-by Case basis but essentially the waiver asked that they would never be subject to an inspection or a fee and so as has been mentioned it could be the the perview of the Building Commissioner in later years that you know on a given year that could be waved but to Grant this blanket waiver for you know the next 50 years just seem or longer is not recommended and so I I don't I don't know if it's worth it to I mean I think the comparison is still good but I mean I think staff needs to talk about it more but the Building Commissioner just emailed me today and said he would not recommend this you know granting this waiver and so he he likes you know it's a simple online application you upload information nothing has to change from year to year unless it you know there's something big but it allows inspectors to go in there and as you said make sure conditions of the permit are being followed uh it's not what other you know um voucher inspections will do it's not necessarily health and safety uh that's covered elsewhere but it could be it also covers other things as part of the the comprehensive permit so I just I mean I think that we can talk about it with wayfinders but really The Building Commissioner this is the second time it's been asked and the second time he said he would not recommend granting it so thank you Mr Malloy Mr guber you had your hand up um yeah it was I it was going to be in response to um the the timeline for the the comparison but um you know I'll I'll speak with our team on that as to when you know something like that if you know if and when we we would put that together all right just let us know great so I think we've dealt with all the the issues we wanted you to come back with for this meeting um M Williams did I for have I spped over anything or board members or there's something else that we wanted them to respond to for this meeting before we go on to the uh the other things we're going to discuss no we had lighting the rental bylaw aiver request laundry facilities and HVAC roof configuration and I believe we covered all of that yep I think so all right so um and what I'd like to what you guys should do is let's talk about property management then income restrictions and then financials and Mr guber are you gonna lead the discussion on this yes yes I right um before you start may I just say I did not see a sample application um in the packet was that not provided cuz I believe I asked for one the last time yes yeah that that was um that was that was not in the packet we'll have that in the packet for um for next week when um we talk about the tenant selection process and um and in that is that does that it wasn't that didn't make it into the packet this week I will share my screen appli so Mr grber if we're going to read along with um what your application is should we be looking at the um management plan narrative that you sent into our uh put in our pack that you submitted is that what we should be looking at here um yeah you're yep you could you could look at the uh the management plan narrative it's going to be you know an an an overview I guess you know of that and um and and these are going to be the you know the main main points of that for the property management plan so right just to yep so you all can see my uh see my screen okay great well I'll start then um yeah so wayfinders professionally manages over 800 affordable rental home units in communities across uh Western and central Massachusetts uh primarily in western Mass um we have a portfolio of properties that you know address the needs of specific demographics like older adults low-income families and people with disabilities um we offer a range of apartment options from single room occupancy to four bedroom apartments our property and uh management uh residential service team work closely to create you know a positive and productive uh environment um in relationships with our residents um it's a uh we try to promote a sense of community Through social activities workshops meetings and services at each site um wayfinders will have a part-time on-site property manager um and maintenance Personnel um and a resident service coordinator um a part-time resident service coordinator emergencies will be responded to by maintenance personnel and residents will be able to contact maintenance after posted office hours through a 24hour 7-Day um you know answering service um to um to to be connected with the the the appropriate person um we'll also have a part-time resident service coordinator for the development the resident service coordinator will they'll meet with new residents upon intake offer and meet um with existing residents on an ongoing basis and orientate them on the property and um assess their service needs um they'll provide uh information and referral to tenants to um organize resident community activities and educational activities or support groups and uh maintain um you know information on those those um on those those activities um that also serve as a liaison for other programs such as financial literacy and uh firsttime home buyer classes or career counseling income tax preparation they'll just help out with um with with with a with a wide range of items um so we'll have that um at our properties you know and each property has a an an office on the lower level um each office will I mean each property will also have a community room for residents to to use and they they'll be they would be able to reserve that room for you know a birthday party or if they had a you know a larger Gathering that that they wanted to have um they'd be able to reserve that room and use that um at the sites we're going to provide um trash and recycling through uh you know a single stream recycling um through two dumpsters that um will be empty you know either weekly or bi-weekly depending on um the the the waste Haller um our landscaping and maintenance that'll be provided by um contractors that that will hire to maintain the sites and um we discussed the snow removal with our Engineers um and um determine that you know up there there was there was capacity for snow storage and that you know any excess snow would be um trucked off site um you know or or as an as needed um basis uh yeah and that's you know so tell me um in your experience how many hours a week will there be either a site manager or a somebody other than than like a building engineer but uh somebody a site manager on on on site how many hours per week would that be because I I know it's not a full-time presence it's not a 40 hours week situation yeah and um um I'd like to just ask uh Amanda would you be able to to speak to that um yeah absolutely so I'm Amanda buban I'm the vice president of compliance um for the property and asset management department at wayfinders uh working mostly out of the Springfield office um so for Site Staffing uh depending on how many properties that the manager and it's usually a team a manager with a an assistant property manager um they'll manage like several sites together but typically there would be on-site office hours at least four days out of the week um whether it's the assistant that's there or the property managers that's there they'll they'll share the coverage um as well as the um resident service coordinator would have certain on site office hours that may be the same time as the assistant or the property manager or we may set it up where they're there for office hours on days that we're not so that there's still always someone available uh typically within our department Wednesdays is the only day of the week that we don't have like normal standing office hours at the properties it's by appointment only on those days and those are the days that we use for administrative you know paperwork catchup filing um and things like that rather than than just having the door open all day but we will still allow people to make appointments so that's Wednesday you said that's one day yeah yeah yeah so it's like we don't normally have like regular open posted office hours on Wednesdays uh but if tenants need us for something we are still available to them they'll have our contacts our emails phone numbers um and also if if that's the only day they can come in to do papal work or to meet with us or something like that we'll accommodate those appointments for them as well and you there on weekends as well uh not typically on the weekends for admin staff unless it's a busy time with paperwork uh we do have managers that are absolutely willing to meet with tenants on weekends like if they work all week and they just can't get into the office we'll kind of rearrange our schedules a little bit to make ourselves available for them uh in terms of Maintenance though maintenance is available 247 365 days a year so if there's any kind of emergency that happens um even with like sometimes like Police Department department calls or the fire department or something like that happens over the weekend uh we do have on call coverage both with the maintenance and with administrative staff as well there's a rotation with the property managers and the regional property managers to cover any kind of administrative things that come up is your is your maintenance team onsite yeah they would have dedicated on-site hours during the week and then and then the 24/7 coverage is like a rotation of a team so they'll be uh what we do now is you have dedicated maintenance technicians for a portfolio of maybe two three properties uh usually two or three techs that that rotate between those properties regularly to do cleanup you know walking grounds every day picking up the trash handling any regular routine maintenance items preventative maintenance items and then if there's emergencies that come up um we have it structured on call so even if it's not a day that there would be a tech there doing regular work there would be a tech available to come uh right away and if there was an emergency or something needed to be addressed that day so uh the question was what I understand your answer is that there's likely to be people on site Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday and sometimes on the weekends if if need be if there's a particular need for it you can make an appointment yeah but I want I want to know how many ballpark you guys manage this you know how how much you yeah I would say at least 30 hours a week yeah I would say at least 30 hours a week there would be an administrative person in the office and also from your experience um not having people there on the weekends or at night is have you found that there is either a NE complaints conflicts any do you feel it that you have sufficient coverage for um these larger units these larger number of units not to have people there at night or in the all all the time on the weekends have you found that there's been a problem not having people there um Management on the weekends yeah I would say overall we don't seem to have a lot of issues with that um you know we have a very diverse portfolio uh and we serve a lot of different um tenants so we do have some properties where you know the the weekend and the night uh you know sometimes can be an issue um and typically we hire third- party security to do walkthroughs if there's any kind of you know if there's any kind of concern about like noise or excessive guests or partying or you know things that are happening because there isn't a management presence there uh we would we would look into that uh different types of Security Contracts to be on site doing walkthroughs either during the day on the weekends during the night on the weekends um but that's really not it's not standard it's not something we have to do everywhere it's really an as needed thing and and sometimes that does happen based on the the demographic of the populations at the properties so um it is something that we do if we if we need to do if you get if you get complaints from tenants it's something that you that can be done that's what you're saying yeah absolutely yep okay other questions regarding the management plan who's and uh the one question we did have was on snow removal that there was limited places to push snow especially on Southeast Street um is it correct that in if you have a large snow we were talk about this last week we had like over 10 inches I think is what you said you probably wouldn't be able to to have it all on site do you have a you have a contract specifically to remove that off that snow off site so that the the uh parking areas and the um would be cleared yeah yes you do okay well that's what that's what we we would have yeah we would have yeah we do usually include that in our snow removal contracts with the when we when we sign them we include Provisions for all of that it'll talk about here's your rate up to this many inches after this many inches they're going to come and plow it's very specific and in sites where we do have because we have other sites too that have very limited snow storage space um so we make sure to include include what their fees are going to be for the equipment needed for for Trucking offsite so we would definitely make sure that's going to be in the contract where it's a concern great right the only question I have I mean I think you've answered you've given me an indication of what you're um how you typically respond but in this development we're going to have a lot of working families and and maybe single parent working working parents and it's going to if they have questions if they have forms to fill out if they have um a need to speak to somebody it's going to be for many of them it's going to be outside normal working hours right and um I guess I would just encourage you to make sure that H what you've represented here is indeed your policy that you are flexible and would make your make the residential site management team available to Working Families who can't do it from 9: to 5 and on the week on weekdays I think that'd be important yeah yeah and as a general practice we operate that way so um it's not uncommon for us to get calls from tenants late in the evening hours on the weekends um I've I've actually myself been out of operations for some time and working mainly in compliance um but I still have tenants that will call me on the weekend if they need something if you know just because it's a phone number that they have uh and if they're trying to call somebody and they can't get somebody they they know how to reach someone within our department um and then if even if it was something administrative they still have the ability to call in to our 247 answering service um and those calls all get forwarded to our um emails and everything like that so the managers are regularly getting um any information that's coming in from from the tenants but we yeah we do accommodate um especially it's helpful to us even in in getting our paperwork done and doing what we have to do to be able to accommodate them uh because if they can't make it in during normal hours or or during the weekday and we need them to complete their paperwork or you know we need to meet with them about something it's conducive to us just as much as it's beneficial to them to to be flexible that way okay thank you I don't have any other questions on property management to either Mr Meadows or Mr Henry do you have questions or or Miss Williams or or Mr Mallo okay let's move on to um income restrictions then okay great right so I'll I'll start this out and just say that you know the income restrictions in the affordable housing they're all based upon area median income levels or Ami so that's what that um acronym is and uh they they may be familiar with some of you but the income limits are updated by Hud each year and Vary depending on geographic location um these are the limits for the Springfield HUD metro area that includes ammer um so uh currently like for an example um 60% uh a Ami for a family of four would be $65,500 a year so anything lower than that you know a family earning up to that would um would fall into that category um So currently you know a four-person 100% Ami is is roughly you know n 9,000 um dollars and one person um would be like around 76,000 for 100% Ami and these are the other um you know uh that numbers that um would the categories would be split up by and then market rate would just be unrestricted yeah um and then the ren tiers that we would expect to see um you know now calculated um including um heat and and um air conditioning electric and and hot water is all included in this and so for example a um you know a two a three-bedroom unit uh at 60% Ami would be rented for roughly $1,700 a you know $1,777 uh a month and these are all you know they're all subject to to change they get they get adjusted a little bit um you know each each year um through uh HUD and then these are some of the other examples like an 80% Ami unit three-bedroom unit would be um 2 , 276 and um so and then our markets um rates were um you know a little bit below what the what the um like a market analysis showed and we're we would probably rent those for you know in the same kind of uh range and um ratio to the 80% Ami so so now I'll talk a little bit about the uh you know apartment income mix across both sites is is shown shown here um and you know um approximately 68 of the 78% of the um units will be income restricted units while the remaining 10 will be um reserved for market rate um the income mix unit and bedroom counts were largely driven by the town's goals um that were set um through the the RFP process um to develop the sites um you know in in you know the sites it those goals also closely align with the states um eoh hlc's goals and criteria for selecting and funding a development so it kind of you know it meets um you know both of those criteria you know the RFP requested a minimum of um you know 133% of the units for uh 30% Ami or less and the development um provides you know roughly 29% or 23 units at this level um the RFP stated that a minimum of um 40 units at 60% Ami or lower and we have um you know roughly uh 49 49 units here um at 60% uh Ami or lower so um you know it's 62% of the units would be that and then um the RFP all all the units um are at or below 80% Ami at The beler toown Road Site which is consistent with um the town's RFP and um and it's and it's due largely because the the property was um purchased with the CPA um dollars that were you know for the affordable housing so it comes with that restriction um the RFP also strongly encouraged the 80% Ami some also referred to as a Workforce housing and market rate units and you know wayfinders understands the benefits of a mix income development and include and included um you know 198% Ami units and uh 10 10 market rate units and the 10 market rate units would be at um Southeast Street so um you know the RFP also requested that the you know it's design conforms to eohc design guidelines the state which it does and um the RFP also set a mix of of bedroom goals um for you know between one and three bedroom units the RFP uh wanted you know stated to have 66% of the units to be two or or more bedrooms and we have um roughly uh 68% um of the units are um two two and three bedroom units so 38 of them are two bedrooms and we have 15 three bedroom units are provided um throughout the development and then the RFP also required that a minimum of 10% of the three bedrooms are would be three bedroom units and 19 and we have 15 of those which you know equates to around 19% of the units of three bedrooms so that's generally how the um the the income you know the inome come levels and the um and how they they they work together um in this development to to meet the goals of the art to meet the goals of the town and the RFP and the affordability that also align with um you know the state's criteria um um for these these types of developments um and now I can show like so at 31 Southeast Street you know we have we have uh 10 you know 10 one bedroom and one one Studio that we were um able to fit in and uh you know 15 two bedrooms and five three-bedroom units total of 31 units and then at 70 belshire Town Road we have 47 units we have 10 three bedrooms 23 two bedrooms and 12 um one bedrooms with two Studios and a mix of uh affordability um levels shown there so and those are the unit unit and affordability kind of mates for um the the development are there any questions can you go back to the uh apartment income mix chart that both both sides yeah there we go so um I was unaware until now that much of this the mix of both income and bed number bedrooms was a requirement of the RFP that the town put out I was prepared to tell you that I was really impressed with the fact that you had that wayfinders had come up with a way to create provide almost 30% of these units for people making 30% or less of Ami I'm still impressed with it I'm still I think it's a really important thing and it's it's forgotten a lot we just look at 80% or 50% of immediate income and we don't focus on how on the people that are really going to have a hard the hardest time trying to find housing and I have to say that I'm very impressed that you have close to you have close to 40% of your of the housing underneath at 50% or less and indeed you have 30% at 30% Ami or less I know they're heavily subsidized but it's a part of the market that just isn't it isn't it isn't served well and I'm very I'm really happy that this these two sites have put so much uh into 30% and Below of Ami so congratulations on doing that and getting the kind of funding that allows you to to subsidize those units and I also think it's not that it's great that you have so many three-bedroom units for 30% and Below because you have a lot of low-income families that need it and I'm I'm I'm I am really um happy to see that I'm impressed so this is great in terms of the the mix thank you can we go back to the um can we go back to the rental uh the you had a chart on rent yeah what it cost some so for 30 so I know it's 30% of the resident income um for each for the under 30% and that varies right but um if I if I'm correct it's about for one person it's about $20,000 to be at the 30 Ami and amest is that correct $23,000 so $2,000 a month so for somebody in that income a single person in that income uh at so 24 let's call it 24 2,000 a month 30% of that is $600 a month so they're they would be getting a a studio apartment for6 $0000 $600 a month as a single person is that about right including utilities yes yeah yeah that would be uh yeah that would be right if if they were at like right at the income liit right top yeah because if their if their income's only $300 a month right we have single individuals on like um emergency assistance through Department of Transitional Assistance where their income is only $300 a mon month so that that person would only pay $100 a month right the other thing that goes into that too for um you know for individuals that are uh elderly or disabled or individual uh families that have children there's deductions for certain things when you when their rank gets calculated like their medical payments their prescription costs child care costs and things like that so it's it's 30% of their adjusted income not 30% of their gross income when they have those uh Project based subsidies yeah well I think the the mix is um really good and U I think doing a the town evidently and and you guys have done complied with that done a good job of targeting where the I think we the a real need in this town and so I'm I'm impressed um other other question questions I I had one more before I open it up I guess so always you know when somebody is successful they they're in at 50% Ami they get a raise they make more money or they have fewer deductions whatever it is but their adjusted income changes uh and they do does the rent automatically increase um at with their so when they fit into 60% Ami what do you do when what do you do to adjust for for people who are still under 80% of Ami but their income varies over time and maybe their income goes up some years or goes down how do you how do you work that out in in your um in each of these each of these buildings um so with the 30% Ami units those are going to have Project based rental assistance so while they're living in those units as their income goes up or goes down they would get like interm rent adjustments they would provide their paperwork to the subsidy provider um and and they would recalculate what their tenant share should be for the other units at you know the 50% 60% 80% levels there's not a subsidy attached there um often we'll get um applicants and tenants moving in that have like mobile vouchers mobile subsidy vouchers so they would be able to go to their uh voucher administrator and ask for a rent change for for U those that don't have a project based or a tenant based subsidy the the rents are set each year and it's a calculation based on the income limit adjusted for like bedroom size um and that's like the max rents that we can charge uh at a property like this where all utilities are included that would be the rent charge so unfortunately if they're living in a 60% unit um which you know a straight tax credit unit they don't have a subsidy it's not Project based subsidized they would still have to pay the rent if they lost their job um so you know we do work with them in in times of transition between jobs and things like that we'll refer them to the raft Department uh for assistance or other Community Resources to help them um pay their rent in the short term uh while they're looking for work but one of the things you've done is you have a specific mix of income of income categories throughout these units and if people's income changes while they're in a unit does it affect the um it affects the the mixture then your distribution of incomes per for the units and how do you account how do you account for that I guess I'm not asking the question very so okay so maybe I think if I explain a little bit how these programs work regulatory wise uh it might help answer your question I'll do my best so with uh programs like the Workforce program the tax credit program uh home funding um which is usually where that 50% of Ami comes in uh as a source um with those so once they're eligible once they're certified as eligible for the unit and they move into the unit they're always considered eligible at that level so they're allowed to they're allowed to exceed the income limit in their unit for that for that because they're once they're eligible they're always eligible for their lifetime so where it comes into play is if we had someone uh you know when we have Market units in in question here if we had someone that was residing in one of the tax credit units or the workforce units and their income exceeded 140% of the income limit for their household size when they did a recertification then we would have to look to make the next available unit as a move in at that income restricted levels that you always have a minimum you're always meaning what your minimum fraction is right we have to have a certain number of units at certain income levels all the time but the second that they are certified eligible and they move into the property they're always eligible at that level even if their income exceeds the income limit even if they went over the 140% of the income limit they would still will stay in that unit and be considered affordable as long as management follows those next available unit rules for the overall development um if they were in a situation and we've had this at other properties where you know they're they're living in a Market unit um and and now they're eligible for affordable unit or they're in an 80% unit or a 60% unit and now they become eligible for you know like a 30% unit with a subsidy or something like that we do handle internally adding them to our waiting lists and things like that so that as soon as something comes up and they're the next in line we would get them into a a lesser income category unit that they were eligible for we would rescreen them for that unit determine that they're eligible for that and then move them into the the lower category with a lesser rent because obviously each time you bump up an income category the rent goes up as well because the rents are set based on the income limits themselves does that help maybe it does help it's it's okay really complicated it is very very complicated really complicated to try to make sure that you you meet your income mix that you that you promised yeah and because people's income is going to change and then they're I didn't realize this but they're permitted to they're qualified for life even if their income changes um so it's that's just the way the state program works evidently I think Amanda's did a great job this is a really really complicated part about the tax credit program because and for really any affordable program nobody's going to get evicted because they're making too much money that's ridiculous you know everybody should be encouraged entitled to make more money without being evicted okay so and sometimes people lose income also you know and so it the programs are designed to to respect that flexibility okay in people's lives their incomes and it doesn't put us out of compliance but then there's another set of rules that say when units become available or you know there's always a reversion to try to bring it back if there's new units that are available they have to get filled to bring it back closer to the original compliance standard um you know and so so that that's a that's constant work and Amanda and her group and compliance are always doing this Balancing Act of you know people's incomes going up going down keeping the ratios we have to have a certain percentage of units available at certain incomes in order to remain in compliance yeah yeah it is really complicated and you don't want to penalize somebody for Success right you don't want to penalize somebody who's up who's um done well and it's now earning more money than they did when they first started that's I can I we totally understand that okay um questions from board members regarding um income restrictions chair yes Mr Henry no no questions thank you Amanda the only thing that confus me you're not really moving people a two-bedroom unit is a two-bedroom unit a three-bedroom unit is a three-bedroom unit you're you're not going to move them from one unit to another you're just categorizing the unit as something different than it was before but it's still the same unit correct yeah we do have the flexibility um for remapping units over time right so uh you know a unit may start out as a Market unit and then later on it may be designated as a 60% unit because a tenant currently living in a 60% % unit may have gone over that 140% of the Ami for their household um so we do monitor that regularly and we do have to move things around and the designations aren't fixed to specific units it's it's specific to the whole property the mix that you have uh the only time that uh there's units that are really fixed um and even then we do have the ability to ask for amendments is the subsidized units so when we enter the contracts for project-based um you know uh Mass rental Voucher Program which is the mrvp program or the Project based Section 8 program uh those units are specifically designated when the contract is entered between the authority and the and the property um if we ended up in a situation where there was a tenant living in a subsidized unit whose income you know gradually over time exceeds the uh not necessarily the income limit but exceeds their need for rental assistance where they're now paying the 30% of their adjusted income is the full rent for the unit uh we would be able to work with the Housing Authority or the section A administrator um to ask for an amendment to swap it to another unit and we would analyze see if we have a vacant unit uh that might have opened that we could move the subsidy to um um and then we do try sometimes to try to work through if we had a current tenant in the population um that may be in need of that subsidy and someone else no longer needed it to try to be able to allocate that subsidy to that that individual within the property in the case that there wasn't any vacance that we could move it to okay so you do work with the local Housing Authority on the Section 8 units yeah yep yeah usually uh usually with our project based Section 8 contracts um we work with wayfinders rental assistance for administration of those uh that's the the you know the rental assistance Department within wayfinders that administers those type of contracts anything that's project-based mrvp um we work with another Regional Housing Authority because there's uh regulations that don't allow us to administer those programs when we have a a stake and ownership of the entities so uh there's different different parts of it right even with Section 8 managing uh through wayfinders with the contracts there's certain pieces of that Administration that are outsourced to third parties because of conflict of interest so if we're using wayfinders as a Housing Authority for the Project based Section 8 contract all the inspections and the rent comparison analysises would be done by an outside agency to make sure that it's it's you know fair and Equitable and that it's not you know that there's no conflict to the data thank you thank you very much okay if there's no further comments or questions um on income restrictions let's go to the financials of the project and I guess that's the last topic we have for tonight I normally we we break at 7:30 I think that there's no reason to break at 7:30 let's just do this next subject matter and we'll continue to plow through um and hopefully you'll be done um before 8:30 tonight so we we we'll continue through and not take our traditional 7:30 break let's do financials okay well so most the the development is is primarily going to be um funded through low income housing tax credits um that are administered through the executive office of Housing and liveable communities and um other uh available State subsidies um for this this development um there's a a funding round application that typically happens you know annually with with other um funding application rounds um that that that um you know you you're invited to based on um how well you meet the criteria that the um State designates um you know for the the the competition so so and and that's primarily how these affordable housing developments are are funded through through that that way so and Bruce if there's anything you'd like to add to the yeah I'll just um a little bit here you know so as you know we talked about the income mix which is very much uh a marriage of both local preferences local needs and State policy as well they happen to coincide very well in this project um and it sort of meets wayfinders sort of Interest as well as the developer and owner of this property to have this income mix we are then you know those that mix of incomes um that we have opens up various funding opportunities you know we're going to be we expect to be tapping um tax exempt Bond financing for example for this project um that tax exempt bomb financing um should open up what are called 4% federal tax credits there are 9% credits and there are 4% this isn't the time to go down that RAB at all but you know we expect to be using Bond financing 4% tax credits um state tax credits there are State low-income housing tax credits and federal so the 4% are federal credits there'll be State lancom housing tax credits that run pretty much parallel to this to the federal credits and then we will also be applying for a lot like seven eight figures of uh what we call soft debt from eohc they've got a whole you know uh list of potential funding sources uh some of them are very flexible this is for any housing below 60% of Ami some of their funding is available available for any for units of 80 to 100% some of their funding is specifically targeted for people um with special needs maybe they're clients of the Department of Mental Health for example or there're for people um work hand handicapped in physical disabilities and so they have all these a vast array of buckets of money to you know help subsidize the construction of these units whether they're low income or meeting the needs of certain populations and part of what we do and we hope to do later this winter is submit our first application to the state um for this array of funds um and then the last piece is also the permanent mortgage financing you know there will be a lot of subsidized uh low income uh low interest debt zero interest debt debt and tax credit Equity we call it um the project will also support a permanent loan which is going to be based on the resulting net operating income you know this you know all of these rents minus the expenses you know in all real estate that will have net operating income that will support a certain amount of uh of private uh mortgage financing as well so you know we have an idea right now of of what that that financing stack is going to look like um it's too early to say exactly how many tax credits and how many of this source and many of that Source but you know part of our job and we work very closely with um eohc is to figure out really what is the best mix of available funds to make this project work um so you know we we we don't have a certain mix that we could show you now because we haven't financed this project in fact once we complete this zoning process that really gives us the green light to to submit an application to eohc um because there's a lot of physical and and social characteristics of this property that are designed to meet State policy um but a threshold for even submitting an application is you need to be substantially through your zoning process and with sort of light at the end of the tunnel at least you know um so which I think we're we're substantially through I don't I don't know how close we are to the end of the tunnel but they don't want to you know given how long zoning processes can take in many places you know they're they're not going to look at projects that are not you know well into the zoning process so you know that's why we're doing this now and we hope to submit an application uh this winter for our first round of State financing so it's a very general answer we can't give you do dollars of this and dollars of that um but that's how we approach this well you yeah I I know these things change and this is a it's a estimate what you what you gave in your application but I was looking through it and I just had some questions knowing that this can change knowing that this is your your first blush approach to your finances but I don't understand and this is for my benefit I'm not sure I understand how tax credit Equity works is this something that you then is there a secondary market for tax credits that you can then you will get them you will will sell your tax credit to some some taxable entity they will give you the cash for that you'll use that for the construction cost is that how this works more or less but more or less more less I know it couldn't be that simple but of course it's a little more complicated yeah couldn't be I'll and there's two basic buckets of tax credit state and federal um the state credits are the simplest to describe okay we the State Credit once we establish and rate we've Achi we've met the affordability goals the state uh the Department of Revenue will issue a certificate that that allocates tax credits to this project we then will sell those to a ma a corporation that's a Massachusetts taxpayer we'll we'll get we'll get uh for five years we'll get the state tax credits come across 5 years will have an agreement to sell those credits to a Massachusetts tax tax payer a corporation paying state income taxes and and they'll pay us you know a percentage of that because it's present valued it's over five years so if we get uh you know if we get 12 million in state credits you know Net Present Value might be like 10 million okay so that's how that works that's a very simple transaction is we're just trading a piece of paper really the federal tax credits are more complicated we create a limited partnership in order for the the federal investor a tax credit investor to benefit from the tax credits they need to be invested in the property in the ownership structure we create a limited partnership the federal investor becomes the 99.9% owner for a period of 15 years okay which is the period because the TA Federal credits come out 115 for 15 years the Fed ederal credit the project will then deliver 99.9% of the annual federal credits go to The Limited partner the investor the investor will also get the depreciation losses essentially so the investors for 15 years are getting tax benefits they're not getting a share of cash flow they're not owning and they're not control not controlling the company no wayfinders is going to be the managing member we are going to entirely control I mean if we if there's Malin and we're failing and all that the limited partners are allowed to step in and kick us out but that's not going to happen uh but basically they are passive investor for 15 years to get the tax benefits and then they leave quietly at the end of 15 years so um and they've gotten all their benefits and and we've gotten all their cash yeah and that's it [Music] simple well in concept simple in concept simple all right so I I mean I I understand that this is all going to change it all depends on interest rates it all depends what the bond rate is all that I guess what I feel is my responsibility is to at the end of this process feel that you have a plan that's going to work that's financially um feasible it's not it's not you're not going to come back in two years and say Jesus just isn't going to work we have to we're going to have to we have to turn the property back to the city or back to the town or whatever it is so uh and obviously this what I have before me what you submitted is just the first attempt at that proforma okay but what is it that what's the risk the biggest risk to this project being financially successful what would we what are you worry about that would would not work but it would happen that would not make this work on on a financial basis is there anything out there the federal programs are probably going to stay interest rates could Skyrocket and that may cause but thank God they seem to be going down just walk me through is there something that we should all be something that we should be aware of because I can't go through all these numbers and no no no guess them because you're the experts I'm not no and I I can I can answer that because there's actually two experiences is in all of our lifetime where we've been through crisis events so the first thing I'll say is everything you've seen in this draft Prof fora is based on you know our collective experience knowing what things cost how much income we're going to get what all the regulations are what kind of financing the state's likely to give us and so we're comfortable with this as a working model things happen what happened so the most recent one these are real examples that wayfinder experienced in The Last 5 Years oh once in a pandemic comes around whoa okay supply chain construction costs we're about to start construction and construction costs go up oh 20% oh then okay we've settled that we think we've flatten that out we've got some additional funding our tax credit investor on a project gave us more Equity the state gave us more tax credits everything's nice and then interest rate spiked you know because the interest rate increased in the inflation increase really followed the supply chain Problems by about a year so we have two projects in our pipeline that we thought were ready to go into construction about two or three years ago and they went right into this Vortex we only got those two projects funded this year one's in poo one's in South adley and uh we expect a close in uh in early 2025 and so we had to go back to the state we worked really hard to get in an investor that would give us top dollar in other words the best return on the tax credit sale I'll call it um and we think we're there we're not 100% there but we're really close another example the financial crisis of 20789 okay wiped out the tax credit Market because most of the tax credit investors had no profits Fanny May and Freddy Mack the two largest investors in the market left the market completely the tax credit Market was dead federal government the treasury Department monetized those credits and so for about a two-year period they took the dollar value of the tax credits and they turned them into what were basically tax certificates and it or cash virtually okay so the federal government turned the the the value of the tax credits Into Cash in order to keep projects moving during the 2008 2009 crisis so we don't always know the state is there going to ba bail us out we don't know that the federal government can always be so responsive but during both of those crises and I think everybody here most of us remember those the tax credit and affordable housing market kept moving forward slower proba to be solved but it wasn't like the commercial Market which just had the rug pulled out and parts of the commercial Market were just killed in especially 15 years ago um so there's a lot of public support and I think that's really the risk mitigate you know there was a big state housing Bond bill that just passed a couple of months ago for I think it's a five million four million dollar4 billion doll authorization over the next fiveyear period so there's a lot of public support we have our job to do to make sure we sharpen the pencils we design it right we use we use sound assumptions but the state and federal partners are you know that's what it's all about and they have to be confident in us also obviously you know if we're screwing around and we don't know what we're doing you know we're not they're not going to save our project um right okay thank you other questions regarding the financials of the the project I had one other thing I wanted just bring up it's not specifically it's something that I in reading through the material I saw which just I think is really enlightening and it was the um market analysis of rents in amorist uh that was done that you contracted um with a firm to do and I'm looking for it here and I thought I had I had marked it but the the sticky came off um are you do you know what I'm talking about the chart that the chart that um shows the market the the current market in Amis for one two three and four one one Studio one and two and three bedroom apartments it's in is it in six I'm sorry I my Post-It note dropped off and now I can't find it which is of course what happens I think it's really interesting for um all of us on the board there yeah is that it yeah keep going yeah what what section is that of your of your proposal to us Mr gr do you know it says exhibit eight yeah Mr chair exhibit eight great there we are I just think if this is there we go that's it Market rent comparison report writing through this I it it took my breath away at the the market rate for uh property in our area and that how substantially lower you are and in this case that the um the the square footage in many cases is higher than it would be with the market but look at the look at the the market rate for where is it was the net is it the gross rent for one two and three bedrooms between $1,300 for a I'm sorry I'm trying yeah $1,300 for a studio property and a three-bedroom Market excuse me $1,700 Market average for a studio in Amor and a $3,700 market rate for a three a three-bedroom apartment in amest am I reading that correctly is that what your your um analysis remainder of a fruit what's that it's 3700 bucks for a for a three-bedroom apartment in amest that's that's what that yeah that's what the table shows in the 30 uh 29 38 for a two-bedroom imagine student housing is captured in this like not on campus housing but like Apartments of Target student rentals remember these are comparable you gonna be oh sorry Jamie yeah if if you go to table 14 which is on PDF page [Music] 12 in that it it it gives you the breakdown of the three bedroom um comparable rents oh these are specific projects and properties yeah and so what I was going to say these aren't any student Apartments the the compar the comparable properties are professionally managed properties they're adjusted for whether or not utilities are included Ed so um you know a lot of older properties you know historically you pay your utilities so uh you know the if you're living in an older three or six unit building and you're paying your own utilities and your windows rattle you're not paying these rents as a student if you're living in a professionally managed property um that's of you know in of good quality and your utilities are all provided you know so the market analysis adjusts you know like an appraisal would for what is a comparable unit it's not every unit is comparable so your your Universe of comparison is large um quote unquote well-managed developments projects it's it doesn't include the um single family home that's rented out or the two duplexes on the street is that what you're telling me exactly okay so this is for professionally managed L for lack of a better term large developments and that's the universe that you're comparing to generally it's the market analyst did this but that's how it's all right well that's helpful because I was I almost um I gasped when I saw that not realizing that the U what the universe of comparison was okay it's not to say that some of these larger developments don't have market rate that rent to students because they could they could sure but it's but it's not the um it's not the the duplex where one person owns a house and they rent it out to correct the second part of the duplex to four students that's not included here okay which is a large part of the amoris market market yeah okay all right are there other questions comments that members of the board have for the applicant not this time Mr chair great all right um so for next next time we've got um a few things you're going to try to come back with um you're going to look Mr um Meadows had some questions regarding runs to the criminal units and you're going to if you if that's a if you can get that done by our next meeting which is next week is it not M Williams yeah that's correct okay um chart we have a a chart comparing what's the second I my notes just have a chart comparing inspection report inspection report that's right it's I have it pulled up for you to read if you'd like to read it oh already my goodness thank you um exact length from runs rental app the rental application that Mr Henry had asked about speak to neighboring properties about the effects of the lighting and spill onto their properties and clarification ofal plans for both sides for their numbers above average what's the cause of this I think that's what we had um anything else that we ask for that we want to get back by next week okay all right next week topics are um Miss William can you bring up those topics I think they're sure I think it's um local preference application selection process are the two is that right yes one moment let me try to get both documents side by side here we go okay so yeah we have um application selection process and local preference and both those can take some time um to go through I see it tonight we're we're at about 8 o'clock and we probably have a little more time if we had prep if we had prepared for we could have also used the application selection process but we thought we had another um another application ahead before us tonight so that's the reason we took these two I just did these two um these three issues Property Management income restrictions and financials next week we don't have anything else it's just slowly wayfinders so application selection process which is complicated just like the financials are local preference which is um something that we always spend some time talking with and we do have the the waivers that they're requesting is a number of waivers a large number of waivers and U Miss Murray I know you're helping us out on looking at the waivers is it possible that we could start um looking at the waiver requests with not with hope of finish them finishing them all up next week but we could start looking at the waiver requests next week if we get through um application selection and local preference and we have some time I think you certainly could or at least uh Mr chair have the applicant go through it and kind of explain what they're seeking and why yeah some of them I think are pretty straightforward but others are going to be more complicated so we're we're let's plan on doing application local preference for sure let's also look at we'll start the waiver process as far as we as we can get um but there you've got I don't know 30 or 40 waivers at least quite a few waivers that we need to go through so we can start the process there Depending on time does that work for um the applicant as well as for the other members of the board okay let's let's do that so we can get on on to that okay um before we leave this this application I want to make sure that we Avil our the public a chance to comment on this application tonight if anybody wishes to comment if you do wish to comment please raise your hand let um let us know that you wish to put wish to comment when you are called upon please give your name and address to the um for the record and try to keep your comments to three minutes Miss Williams do we have anybody who has raised their hand no we don't okay all right if there's no other no other comments from the public no other comments from the board I would entertain a motion that we continue this hearing until six o'clock on October 17th so is there second second it's been moved in seconded is there any discussion regarding that motion if not the vote occurs on the motion to continue this till next week at 6 o'clock on the 17th the chair votes I Mr Meadows I Mr Henry I motion carries um Miss Fryman you have your hands up um so there's two members that are not present tonight so in between this week and next week we'll be they be watching the tape and um filling out the forms so they could participate I I certainly hope so okay yes that's their respon y that's that's their responsibility and they they're both experienced members and I think they know they need to do that great perfect they should and and our top-notch staff will remind them of their responsibility to do that too great thank you good that's one good reason the meeting's a little shorter they have less to watch so there's a lot of reasons the meeting or good reasons meeting to be a little shorter there's a lot of good reasons anyway okay um is there any other um the last order of business before we go into new business is General discussion the public has opportunity to discuss any matter before not accept matters before us tonight so anything but the matter before us tonight if anybody in the public wishes to speak they may do so now for three minutes if they raise their hand you can permit that anybody raising their hand Miss Williams all right no public comment um we've talked about the schedules um is there any other new business that people wish to raise board members wishes to raise the staff we have um upcoming meetings on the 17th we've got wayfinders on the 24th we've got 328 College Street and 47 Redgate Lane I think are the two that we have coming up yes that's correct right um on the 14th we we'll have we have uh half wayfinders but I I my susp my suspicion is that unless there's another um application that there won't be a lot of discussion about this shsb solar project I don't think there's been a lot of uh progress there am I Am I Wrong Miss Williams do you know of any large any desire for a large presentation or a lot of discussion on the Sho Road what they're going to do they may ask to continue or maybe they'll have some developments we'll we'll staff will talk and then we'll get back to all right so so we we'll have at least half the meeting on wayfinders on the 14th half the full meeting on the 21st and then we'll we hope to be looking towards having a having decisions in early December and we're trying not to run this into January if that's at all possible so I think we're making good progress I want to applaud the staff for all the work on this board members as well as wayfinders um I think you've really tried to respond to our questions and we appreciate it uh appreciate the hard work that everybody's doing um if there's no other questions no other comments I'd entertain a motion to adjourn so moved second it's been moved and seconded to adjourn um the motion is non debatable the chair votes I Mr Meadows hi Mr Henry hi vot is three to nothing with to absent motion carries we are adjourned and we'll see you next week thank you all much by everyone