the appointed hour is 6 o'clock having been 6:03 having been reached I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Amorous zoning board of appeals my name is Steve judge chair of the amoris zoning board of appeals I hereby call this meeting to order pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended Again by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote memes members of the public who wish to access this meeting May do so via Zoom or by telephone no in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means Additionally the meeting recordings may be viewed via the town of amher YouTube channel and the zba web page please indicate you wish to comment by clicking on the raised hand function button when the public comment is solicited if you you have joined the zoom meeting using a telephone please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star9 on your phone when called on please identify Yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when you finish speaking residents can express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the zoning chair of appeals zoning board chair of appeals chair if a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds their a lot of time their partition will be par participation will be discontinued from the meeting in accordance with the provision of Massachusetts general laws chapter 4A and article 10 of the special permit granting authority of the ammer zoning bylaw this public meeting has been duly advertised and notice that there has been posted and mailed to parties at interest we'll begin with the Roll Call of the regular members of the zba um Steve judge is here Mr Henry I here Mr chair um Mr Philip White present Mr David sler here Mr Craig Meadows here and Mr David alfeld he's coming in here we go just joining you yep we'll note for the record that Mr alel said yes also in attendance is jenta Williams the planner for the town Christine bre the T planning director and Rob MOA The Building Commissioner the zoning board of appeals is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 48 of the general laws of the Commonwealth for the purpose of promoting the health safety convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of amrest one of the most important elements of The ammer Zing byw is section 10.38 specific findings from this section must be made for all our decisions all hearings and meetings are open to the public and recorded by Town staff the procedure is as follows the petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information after the board has completed its questions the board will seek public input the public speaks with the permission of the chair if a member of the public wishes to speak they should so indicated by using the raised P function when you are recognized present your name and address to the board for the record all questions and comments must be addressed to the board the board will normally hold a public hearing where information about the project and input from the public is gathered followed by public meetings for each the public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment if the board feels it has enough information and time it will decide upon the applications tonight each petition heard by the board is distinct and evaluated on its own Merit and the board is not ruled by precedent statutorily for a special permit the board has 90 days from the close of the hearing to follow decision for a variance the board has 100 days from the date of filing to file this decision no decision is fin until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members and is filed in the town clerk's office once the decision is filed with the town clerk there's a 90day n a 20-day appe appeal period for an agreed party to contest the decision with a relevant judicial body in Superior Court after the appeal period the permit must be recorded at the registry of deeds to take effect tonight's agenda um approval of consideration of approval of the meet um minutes from the meetings of June 27th 20 24 Public hearings on zba FY 20238 ASD shutesbury Massachusetts solar LLC requests for a special permit under section 3.34 of the zoning bylaw to construct a 9.35 megawatt direct current and a 4.4 megawatt alternating current ground mounted solar foldo volic array spaning 41 Acres on 102 Acre Site and accompaning battery energy storage system and three Parcels of lands owned by WD Cs and Inc identified as map 9B Parcels 11 and 12 map 9d parcel 27 on shutesbury road Ro outlying residential zoning District Frontage and access to the subject parcel of land is located between 187 and 2011 shutesbury Road this is continued from our June 6th 2024 meeting um John zba fy20 24-21 John S Lane and Sun Company Inc request for a special permit under sections 10.33 modification Amendment or renewal 3373 removal of soil sod lone sand gravel rock quar son or other Earth Products and 3374 processing of Earth and connection with the authorized removal of a zoning bylaw to renew special permit zba fy2 18-32 and continue quing operations on the presence premises located at 1550 West street map 28a parcel 10 map 28b Parcels 9 12 15 16 17 2122 map 28d parcel 12 in the rld low low density residence zoning District zbf zba fy20 24-18 mathina morisy requests for a special permit under section 3.32 one1 of the zoning bylaw to convert a single family dwelling into a non-owner occupied duplex with requested waiver from the sign plan at 180 North Whitney Street map 11d parcel 261 RG General resident zoning districts this is ALS this is continued from the June 27th 2024 meeting and a public meeting on um zva fy2 2006-15 Frank Patel 15 Hazel Avenue in accordance with conditions number six of the of fy2 2006-15 special permit the new owner shall appear before the zba to review and accept the existing management plan for property located at 15 Hazel Avenue map 13d parcel 32 RN neighborhood residence zoning districts then there's uh general public Comon period also other business not anticipated within the last 48 hours um just a note um we have a couple of things which I think are going to move quickly that is the shs berry matter the John Lane matter those are both public hearings and there's also the um public meeting portion for the um 15 Hazel Avenue I think those are are quick but I think there'll be considerable discussion on um zba 2024 the 180 North wiy Street what I propose we do is we handle the shutesbury road John Lane and the Frank Patel 15 Hazel Avenue first and then we moved to the uh 180 um North Whitney Street as a matter of uh order is that a anybody have a problem with that Miss bre I I don't have a problem with that but I'm curious about whether we communicated with Mr White about um David alfeld being on the John Lane project okay I just wanted to clarify that thank you very much okay so the first order of business tonight is approval of the meeting minutes from June 27th 2024 I've had a chance to read those uh minutes I find nothing I think which needs to be changed has everybody else had a chance to review those minutes and if so do you have any suggestions for changes I just had one question Mr chair um the square footage for the building did we capture that correctly um in the minutes it mentions um almost 5,000 but this building is quite large [Music] um um I'm trying to find what page I saw that on yeah it's on page two you're talking about the um Ron leier yes yeah page two right on the first line talking about a 5700 square foot mixed use building you know I don't have I don't have the original uh application available to me to check and see if that's correct or not what I propose we do I think M B has her hand up y bre I believe that 5712 refers to the footprint of the building and the building is I don't know three stories or four stories high Mr MOA would know more about that but I believe that the 5700 relates to the footprint of the building but you know what I what we could do um we could double we could double check on that number and um consider these the minutes at the next meeting or we could instruct us the the staff to make Technical and conforming changes to that number to make sure it represents the full um square footage of the structure I prefer the latter um because I don't think it's a substantive issue but I think it's a good catch no I'm I'm fine either way why don't we do that why don't we approve these um unless there's other changes approve these minut minutes of the meeting contingent on um the staff checking and then correcting making Technical and Performing changes to the square footage of the building just to make sure it's correct do I have such a motion so moved so moved moved and seconded um the vote occurs if there's any discussion if there's none vote occurs on the motion to approve the minutes the chair votes I Mr Henry I Mr Meadows hi Mr White hi Mr slob hi motion carries five to nothing minutes are approved as with the tech with Technical and Performing changes to be made by the staff uh the next order of business is um zba FY 2023 ASD shsb ma solar LLC I understand from the uh the staff that we've received um a message from the applicants representative that they wish this to be continued to a later date there's no additional information to share with us from the applicant's perspective is that correct M prro that is correct and I think you have an email to that effect from the applicant yep we do and do we have a date uh certain to to which to move this I think they would like to move it to oh sorry September 12th okay and before we do that so we have a request to move this to continue this to the SE September 12th um excuse me for that noise in reviewing the packet there are a number of um comments and I'm not sure which ones have been read in public comments and I'm not sure which ones have been read into the record in our previous meetings um I know there's one that seems one public comment that's um from June 9th and I from um hold on a second but I want to make what I want to make sure is that we've got all the public comments read to the record or acknowledged into the record and we can and I think we that most of them have already been acknowledged and placed into the record but there's one from Rachel ller on this on the 6th on the 9th of June that I think is after the meeting that we the last meeting that we took U public comments on are there any others I've noticed that the there's an email from Nancy Haver and that's ALS that's on the six which was I think the last meeting there's one from June 3rd from Phil Rich and there's also a memo from Janet McGowan dated June 5th but other than those I don't think there's any other public comments that have not been acknowledged in place to the record all right so um the next order what we need to do is um approve the continuance to September 12th you said that's correct September 12th at 6 PM um do I have a motion to do so still moved is there a second second all right it's been moved in second to move this to September 12th at 6 p.m. continue it to se September 12th at 6 p.m. chair votes I Mr sler I Meadows I Mr Henry I great now um Miss bre I know we have some more meetings coming up um on this topic that involve briefings from um our Council can you just give us the dates for that and as well as if there's anything if there's a a progress report that you have on the peer reviews or where we stand on that can we just provide that information at this point yes um we were supposed to get um responses from the uh peerreview the RFP that we put out for peerreview um on the 23rd and um the person who receives those responses is not in the office she's um off for a few days so I called her and I emailed her but um I don't know if you know what kind of response we've gotten so um so that's kind of an open question however the zoning board of appeals um voted on June 6th to give staff authorization to review the responses and to hire um the Consultants so there's no need to wait for your next meeting to do that so as soon as we get um the responses and have a chance to review them and hire somebody we will um be able to report to you at your next meeting and let's see the other thing is um wsp um I was in touch with them recently they're supposed to uh be reviewing glare and battery storage and they um don't have anything to report yet and then the third thing is that Jonathan Murray of KP law will be um giving a presentation to the zoning board of appeals about the legal aspects of solar um on August 22nd and that will start at 6: PM um and so it'll be a presentation to you all I believe it was Mr uh Meadows who requested this you have received a presentation about um you know the the legal and permit aspects of solar um but that was last year and so um I think we we felt Mr Meadow felt that it would be good to have a refresher on that and it would be informative for the public as well as for um zoning board of appeals members so jonthan Murray's planning to come and or be on zoom and spend at least an hour to present to you and answer your questions great okay all right good thank you all right uh the next order of business is zva um FY 20242 John S lanes and Sun requests for a special permit to continue quaring operations on the premises is located at 1550 West Street um why don't we bring in everybody from that and I want to make note that for this panel um our associate Mr alfeld is serves on the panel Mr White does not serve on this panel um we held a site visit on Tuesday afternoon at this at the the site at which we met with representatives of the company we viewed the um the Quarry itself we viewed the um we looked towards the boundaries um of the quy and where possibilities for it to move in the future we inquired about the depth of the um the current M uh quaring operation how much farther it had to go into to reach groundwater we looked at the uh the original cut from the Mount of the mountain we observed the Machinery located both in the Quarry itself and and the crushing Machinery up on the pl on a the an area that has not been qued yet or is not presently being qued um and we viewed where the um Quarry how it may move and and when it does the equipment goes down into the Quarry we heard a lot about the history of the company we also heard a lot about um the history of the area and the use of the stone and and um general information about the business of cording which I found interesting and informative um that would be my report does anybody have anything more they want to report on the uh site visit Mr sler uh in our discussion with the repres with the two representatives of the company they clarified that they are not asking for any changes to the conditions or the operation of the Quarry that's right Mr alel do you head your hand up yeah thank you I just to remark that we also saw the traffic patterns that are used to load trucks um and also we observed the distance from the road uh West Road to the uh Quarry face good yep that's exactly right and Miss bre you were taking notes is there anything else that we need to remark for the record or jenta you also were so there's anything to add I think that pretty much covers it though I think it covers it mhm we have um the only submission that we've received on this is uh is from um it's from the um Aaron jock who had originally had some ideas for conditions um on June 1st she clarified her position um at later we'll ask the representative of the company about this she CL and later clarified that if there's nothing done within the um buffer zone or within the resource area there's no requirements from the concom but we can ask a question on that I don't think there's any other um submissions other than those from the applicant which include just the request for a zba application site map a management plan form um the 2024 site management plan a mining map as well and then there is uh storm water pollution prevention plan on the um a map site from from 2021 GS GIS aerial map special permit decision from 2018 special permit decision from 2013 and a special permit decision from 2008 so um I guess Mr Crosset are you representing the applicant yes uh and uh thank you for having us on the agenda tonight I'm Kyle Crossett name address for the okay uh in addition I've got uh Jason Capel and Pete Barrett with us um uh director of Technical Services and vice assistant vice president for pekam Industries as well great thank you you proceed uh thank you for having us um we're here tonight to uh request of the board approval for a five-year special permit for Earth extraction to continue our operations as has been um historically performed at our uh Amherst quy um there are no changes to the method or um area of mining we uh intend to stay within our currently affected area with no new acreage affected um and uh we have outlined in our map the area that we expect to mine over the next 5 years um pretty straightforward and um we request or we uh would like to continue to abide by our management plan as has been uh done historically thank you I guess um if you have nothing else to say the one question I have is you have no it's correct that you have no uh intention to work within the buffer zone or within the resource areas um on your site is that correct that is correct and you've worked and you've met with the concom and they're comfortable with this is that correct that is correct are there any questions from board members Mr alel I just wanted to follow up a little bit on the conversation we had uh on Tuesday at the site visit um we heard a little bit about depth to groundwater and uh I wonder if Mr Crossett could elaborate on that I'm curious my recollection is what is that you said there was just one point of observation of the water table elevation yeah we have a we have a well down near the crusher in the southern part of the Quarry um I had and I just want to make a correction when I was out there initially I said 20 ft um I actually double checked and it's more like uh 50 50 to 60 ft below the current um elevation of the Cory floor so um as of now there's no uh chance of interacting with with that aspect of the site and if I can follow up um do you take regular measurements at that well to see if there are seasonal fluctuations or um I mean there's certainly going to be seasonal fluctuations but we do not take regular measurements we just have um a few data points from past observations okay thank you are there other questions from board members for the applicant if not are there any public comments any members of the public who wish to comment on this if you do so so indicate by using the raised hand function on your phone on your computer or Star n on your phone there are no hands on the attendee list great all right um there no further questions from board members and nothing further from the applicant go ahead Mr Al go ahead yeah yeah thank you um I I I this may be a pointed discussion for in in a few minutes but um I just want to clarify that the intention for Mr Crosset the intention is to in the area indicated on the mining map to drop the uh elevation down to about 485 feet above mean sea level which is the same elevation as in the southern part of the of the current uh Quarry is that right yeah so uh you know when we were out there taking a look and and standing on that uh top bench next to the plan um that face that was to the south of us is going to be moved to the north um and you know as that moves the plant actually is going to be relocated to the Corey floor um but you know over the next uh five years and probably Beyond that's the only area we plan on mining and to that depth to correct to that depth yeah yeah okay thank you great if there no further uh comments from board members or from the applicant I would entertain a motion that we uh continue the public we keep the public hearing open while we move to a public meeting on this matter um such a motion it's moved we have a second it's moved and seconded um if there's no discussion the vote occurs on the motion to continue the public hearing while we move to a public meeting chair votes I Mr sler hi Mr Meadows hi Mr Henry I Mr alel I motion carries five to nothing we're in the public meeting portion the public meeting portion is where the the members get a chance to deliberate on the matter before them and it's generally not an opportunity for public comment um I think there's no reason to I mean there's every reason to um approve the request to continue the operation as it is and with the U information we received and the information with theom I'm really comfortable with this I don't know about anybody else question Mr chair yes you sure May um so one of the things that Miss Williams said on the site visit um in terms of the the the five-year grind of this permit was that it cannot be extended um Beyond five years um and I read that um and oh you just you're um you froze on us Mr Henry finding that we have the question was um rather oh I'm sorry am I clear start again y start again please that's okay now so one of the things that Miss Williams and pointed out on the site visit was the fiveyear um requirement um and it we have to make that in the findings not extended beyond the five years my question was um it also said that we may have the ability rather we do um to do increments so rather than having the Quarry come back before the board within five years if nothing is changing and by nothing I mean that in absolute they're just extending a permit um it seems if we have the ability to say it can be extended um for another 5 years provided that nothing is changing in terms of how they're operating doing business is that is that a good understand Miss Williams no so what I was saying at the um site visit was that I initially thought that's how the zoning bylaw read but after discussing it with our Building Commissioner he explained to me that we can only do fiveyear increments um so we can't do say 10 or 20 or 25 we just they just have to come back every five years to renew the permit no I I understood that so we wouldn't we wouldn't extend it for 10 years but again they come to say um The Building Commissioner understanding that nothing is changing just have them extend the permit can is that permissible that's a good question uh Mr MOA do you want to weigh in I don't believe so because the the criteria says upon reapplication so I it's reapplication to the board under the special permit process uh to um you know be considered for that up to fiveyear extension renewal or reissuance so I think um every five years they need to reapply okay thank you any other questions comments from board members Mr alfeld um I was looking at the conditions suggested by staff and I noted that the first four conditions from the 2018 uh permit are not present in the conditions proposed for the for the permit for the current permit um and I guess they're in the management plan so this is perhaps just a question for me to understand is the management is is compliance with the management plan presumed as part of uh satisfying the permit well yes normally it is presumed that that if you have a man you have to comply with the management plan I mean it's not an explicit Condition it's just presumed well it's sometimes um an explicit condition but it is assumed um I would be more comfortable having all the conditions stated one through three stated as well I even though there is a a management plan I think that makes more sense and it was but miss bre I see you have your hand up I was going to respond to the question about the management plan and I think that you should um make uh a condition that the operation will be um operated in accordance with the management plan that is approved tonight um and I don't remember the first three conditions so apologize for that but it seems that carrying over the conditions from the previous permit makes sense to me if it makes sense to Mr Mara you know and I I have to admit that I did not look at those oh good who's all right so the ones that are there are coring shall be open face type does not create pits or Cory holes and the operation shall not be a loyal cor FL Notch 116 crosses the loyal range suitable precaution shall be taken according to the best industry practice to protect the public against injury arising from blasting or any their aspect of the quar and rock uh specific specific precautions shall be taken to warn hikers and administration of the not visitors center before blasting activity takes place in addition to the normal precautions sounding horns and posting observers at strategic locations the authorities of the quy shall inform the visitor center of each plann blasting Activity 1 hour before the blasting takes place yeah I think those should be contained um in the in the list of conditions so I would I would um want to amend the conditions in this project application report to include one through three and I and and we heard from the applicant on the site that they do the um they take the precautions for hikers um and um protection of the public so I don't that is something they currently do and I think they should be oh raise hand Y and lastly um got M brush and then Mr Ali and then miss brro yes thank you uh so as you know this is my first panel so I've been enthusiastically studied the previous permit and the current proposed conditions and the proposed conditions 1 through 10 are identical to the previous conditions 5 through 14 so that they're carried over it's just the previous permit conditions one through four are no longer there the first two of those four um require that a management plan be put in place which obviously is happening and the other two have to do old condition number three is change of ownership and old condition number four is decommissioning or Reclamation and those are both described in the manage the new management plan so I think we're covered it's just the question of if you're required to carry out the management plan that implies the the existence of those old conditions the the um implementation of those old conditions it does and in this case I think those are two two topics that are um important enough to have in to continue in the conditions that there be a Reclamation plan and that there's a change of ownership so uh if there is a change of ownership the provision for that so I I think we should include the old conditions and we should include a condition to make sure that the new manage that the operation is run in accordance with uh the new man the management plan on that we have before us um Miss bre did you have your hand up my question has been um my the answer has been clarified thank you okay we do have normally we don't call upon people who from the public but in this case we might need some additional information and we can do that Mr kapple I see your hand is up which do you wish to add something to our discussion here Mr Kapp you're uh there you go uh yes uh Jason Capel name and address give us your name and address Mr Kapp for the record uh Jason Capel uh pekam Industries 763 scoary Turnpike Athens New York all right I just wanted to say that uh as a representative of the applicant we have no issue with reincorporation of Prior permit conditions even though they're cited in the um operations plan um we have no objection to restatement of the prior conditions as part of the permit all right thank you all right if there's no are there any other questions comments opinions from board members regarding this Mr alel do you have your hand up I yes I do thank you I have one more and that has to do with the depth of excavation um one of the conditions describes the limits of excavation um I don't have that handy which number is it five number eight of of the okay um yeah number eight lists the area so number eight any aspects of the Cory operation be conducted I'm sorry number seven query shall be contained in the area designated by the board as shown on the mining map uh and there's a date for that mining map uh dated May 28 and stamped by uh Robert FM go registered professional engineer it show the map shows the area but it doesn't I'm not sure the depth is explicitly there there is a cross-section view on that map and I had actually if you want me to share my screen I can pull that map up um but there is a cross-section view that kind of gives you an idea of the elevations involved if you'd like me to to show that you could just share your screen but I'm not sure that that showing us that would give Mr answer to Mr Al feld's question which is is there a limit is that right yeah and I think that that they there is an intended limit which I asked about earlier the 485 feet um so I think the condition if if proposed condition number seven in the staff's report is amended to read Quarry shall be contained in the area and depth designated by the board as shown on the mining map and that depth is shown on that map in a cross- section okay that that would satisfy my this concern of cut thank you so Mr afeld wishes to amend condition seven in the staff report to add the word and words and depth after the word area yeah all right are there is there any discussion about that is there I do you move that Mr raal is that motion to do so to move to amend the condition you do yes I need a second you need a second second got a second any discussion if not the vote occurs on the motion to amend the condition the chair votes I Mr off F hi Mr sler hi Meadows I Mr Henry I the vote is five to nothing to approve the amendment um all right any other comments questions or amendments to the conditions before we get to if not the question occurs on the conditions as proposed so um chenta you put those conditions up on the we have to approve the conditions before we move to findings so if you'll put those conditions back up on the screen thank you so the conditions that we're approving are before us they include one through three which were not in the staff report um and then mve down the additional word that um words that Mr offel included and so that would be here at area and depth and then we have included um all right I guess 11 isn't needed because we've got one through four there is that right excuse me I think that um we're getting a little confused I think just cinta meant to add the conditions that were from the previous permit and that's why she put 11 in there she's reminding herself to include it when she writes up the final the three conditions that are at the top on the other page are conditions that are specific to this case here so Jinta is saying she's going to go back to the old permit from 2018 and resurrect the conditions 1 through four from that permit and then um and then I think 11 and 12 might be the same but I'm not sure yeah and then 13 is a new one so anyway I'm saying that you need 11 don't discard 11 because J is going to reward that by bringing in the old conditions one through four from the previous permit all right and then the other thing I would say is approval New Management plan as approved I think something that the operation com uh complies with the management plan as approved on July 25th I think Mr Mo has a signs up Mr MOA yeah I was just going to mention I I think you only need conditions two through four from the original permit uh because the the management plan is submitted with this application so there's no reason for that to have to occur within 90 days okay but we do need to have the condition that the management that the operations comply with the management plan correct Mr Mora yes I think two three and four of that 2018 permit belong in this new permit just I don't think number one is applicable anymore because you have that updated management plan dated May 24 of two 2024 so all right so it is this is confusing or something should be pretty easy but it's conf so we don't see two through two through four from the old conditions do we hold on let pull them up one second all right thank you all right number one is the 90 days we don't need that number two we follow it all time times so that solves a problem that we may not need those new conditions at the end this the approved management plan shall be followed at all times that satisfies that change of ownership right so you'll include that and we'll include number four I can do that now would you like to have a date associated with number two where it um talks about the approved management plan I don't know that we a date of the approved management plan as as of today's date yeah yeah that would be see and then just put the yep response plan let's put that right so for 11 the new 11 you just brought down put in as of July 25th 2024 after the word plan right there we go she'll be followed and she'll come before the that's right change of ownership meeting IM manag Planet the other all right so 12 it's correct I'm numbered incorrectly but it's correct yeah yeah number um 16 just admitted yep we want to have that all right that's we still need 19 well that's just a note to you to make sure that all them right yeah I would think so so that I think we've got them all so unless somebody feels differently I think we ought to eliminate that 19 we don't need 20 the approval the new management plan because we referenced that up above and we don't need 21 all right is everybody comfortable with the conditions as we've got them stated for us okay what I would do is I I would entertain a motion to approve the um conditions as um as on the sheet that's on the screen before us do I have such a motion they're moved is there a second I it's moved and seconded to approve the conditions the vote discussion the vote occurs on the motion the chair votes I Mr alfeld hi Mr Henry I Mr sler I I Mr Meadows hi all right the conditions are approved next we have to make our findings I note in I have not it's been 5 years since I've done findings on the uh excavation section of the of the bylaw but it looks as if the staff staff made the findings um and it does not require that we make findings separately from that is that correct M bre or Mr MOA we need to make specific findings for sections 3.37 or is it sufficient for it to be stated in the project application report I think you could accept the findings that were written by staff you could adopt those findings that's probably a good idea yep let's do that so we'll accept Section three the staff findings in section 3.37 and we will go through the 10 and and we'll also go through 10.38 at this point time section 10.33 modifications or renewals so um we we'll also include in the motion to approve the staff review of section 10.3 special permits but 10.38 um The Proposal is suitably located in neighborhood which is proposed I think that's right 10. 382 383 385 and 387 does not constitute a nuisance to due to air water function this operation has been going on for 150 130 years I don't think it's it hasn't proved to be a un nuisance yet 10. 384 adequate and appropriate facilities provided for proper operation I think there enough sanitary facilities there 10. 386 proposal ensures if conformance of the parking sign regulations um Park are sufficient um asking a waiver from the site plan but there aren't any new signs going to be added so I think we can find um they apply with 10 point we can make the finding required out of 10. 386 10. 387 provides safe vehicular traffic and pedestrian movement within the site um as was stated in in our staff visit our site review as well as the staff review I think they have safe and um vehicular pattern for both vehicles and and and pedestrians within the site 10. 388 ensures adequate space for the off Street loading and parking it's their business they do that 10. 389 propos adequate methods of disposal of so each re Refuge um the USA waste takes care of their their their waste and their um their Refuge 10.3 90 protection from flood hazards um there is precautions taken to deal with additional um uh rain and water in the site there's a small streamer one of the partial subject regulation of the zoning by law no workers proposed in that area 10.3 91 um hiking trails are north of the site and are um undisturbed and protection is provided for hikers and notification and precaution 10392 adequate landscaping for adjacent properties um they're a long ways from the uh many residential areas and it's been um an un it's been operating for a long time without any complaints 10393 the proposal price on traditional property by minimizing the intrusion of lighting I think it's all um the lights are downcast the rear wall is two upcast lights but the lighting is um does not to be changed and it's it continues as as it has 10.39 4 The Proposal avoids exent PE will impact on steep slopes um burms will be continued and the um just lastly The Proposal does not create disharmony with respect to the terrain to the use in scale and architecture of existing buildings I don't think that's applicable 10396 uh provides screening for storage areas they do that 10397 requires a we find adequate Recreation facilities that's not not applicable 10.39 proposal is in harmony with the general purpose and in 10 of the bylaws and the goals of the master plan um as long as it as it complies with the um requirements of this special perent does so so I find that we can make I I propose that we can make the findings required under 10 10.38 as well as sections and accept the staff recommendations on sections 3.37 as well as section 10.3 special permits do I have such a do I have such a motion excuse me do I have such a motion they're moved is there a second second M second is there any discussion may I make a suggestion yes there's one's um 10. 388 is about off Street loading and unloading of vehicle and the staff review says that um the application doesn't address this and suggests that the board should inquire about this at a public hearing I think that um finding should be changed to find that you find that the off Street loading and unloading of vehicles is done in a proper manner because I think most of what they're going to be doing is loading and unloading rock and stone right so you don't want to be left with a finding that is asking a question you want to be left with a finding that makes a statement right correct so how would you like to word that step I think that we find that the proposal provides adquate Place adequate space for off Street loading and unloading of vehicles Goods products materials and Equipment normal operation The Establishment or use thank you I think we just find that um and then we repeat the words of the finding that we have to make yep that's that works yep okay so um I move that we amend the our findings as stated is there a second and then we'll then we'll vote on all the findings at the end but first we have to amend the the existing findings is there a second I hear a second any discussion on the motion all right vote occurs on the motion to amend the findings in section 10. 388 to include um an affirmative statement that meets those requirements the chair votes I Mr alfeld I Mr Henry I sler I Mr Meadows I motion is five to nothing the amendment carries now we vote on the conditions as a whole um and we already have a motion out there is there any further discussions on that motion to approve the conditions and accept the staff reviews if not y it's not the V the vote occurs on the motion which is already before us as amended the chair votes I Mr alfeld I Mr Henry I sler I Meadows hi the vote now Ur the final final vote is to uh final question before us is to approve the special permit application to provide for an fiveyear extension for johnl and companies um that is zba FY 20242 do I have such a motion to approve the special permit so moved SL removes second second second Mr Meadow seconds it any discussion if not chair the vote occurs on the motion the chair votes I Mr sler I Mr Henry I Mr alfeld hi Mr Meadow I vote is five to nothing the special permit is is approved with conditions and uh the spe the public hearing is closed on this matter thank you very much everyone congratulations I hope you continue to provide another 100 100 years of work at the site us too appreciate it all right thank you very much yeah have a good night guys you too Mr offel thank you for your participation in this we appreciate it you're welcome to stay around uh but we'll bring Mr Henry back up for the other matters thank you thank you I will I will return to the audience I think U so log off now all right thank you very much all right the next order of business is um a public meeting on zba 20165 Frank Patel 15 Hazel Avenue and accordance with condition six of the 2006-15 special permit the new owner shall appear before the zba to review and accept the existing management plan for property located at 15 Hazel Avenue map 13d parcel 32 neighborhood res his owning District um hold on Mr Patell I you get your paper in front of me here we go Mr Patel um we don't have any um submissions that have to be um noted do we except for the old uh the existing special permits from 200 2006 which we've received as well as yeah they're all entirety of the 2006 special permit is there anything else Miss breast with that we have to note for the record as this this is just a public meeting and we're really just approving the um the management plan Mr Patel is attesting that he will abide by the existing management plan okay and Mr Patel um do you wish to make any presentations on this I mean did you recently purchased this property that is correct yes I uh oh first of all can you can you hear me yep we can just give us your name and address for the record sure so my first name is Frank my last name is Patel and yes I just recently bought this property and my plan is to continue using it same like there are no changes in the property so I I I would like to continue using it as a rental property and go ahead and again I'm just requesting to to approve the permit goad so I'm I'm looking for the management plan from 2006 I think is the management plan that you have to that you are going to comply with and if I recall correctly that management plan says that the property would be managed by the owners who live two two houses down that's not you is it Mr pel two house down no but I live in Hadley so it's only like a less than five minute drive but we do need to note that it looks like the management I think the management plan needs to be updated because the yeah I'm looking at the management plan dated um 11145 is approved is there a later management plan than this that you know of or that the staff is aware of if needed I can uh submit the updated management plan but I I plan to manage myself and uh I don't do you manage other do you manage other property Mr Patel that is correct yes so um I also own the property right next to this property and I manage few rental properties me and my wife both so um I have a experience of managing the properties for last 15 years so um this is non-owner occupant residential rental cut it and to and um I think that the management plan shows that the the management would be done by somebody who lives two doors down and that is not the case so we have to amend your your management plan needs to be amended to reflect that sure and I ask Mr Mo Miss bre we don't in in this situation do we require a um professional management company an owner a resident manager or a somebody else isn't there um provisions of the zoning bylaw that requires that restrict not restrict but condition the management uh to either own to not owner occupant either a um professional management company somebody who's done it somebody who's competent or a resident manager Mr Mora should really answer that this property is in the RN District that doesn't have that specific uh criteria that the RG district has in the zoning bylaw uh so at the time it wouldn't have required it it doesn't at this time um but you know as you noted the the management plan should be updated under Mr Patel's ownership and you know um letterhead along with um you know the condition you noted also the condition related to trash and recycling should be updated I'm not sure um that's accurate and I'd also recommend that the complaint response portion of the management plan be incorporated at this time and we should have the um the complaint response and the and the recordkeeping that we've used with other rental properties consistently as well should be part of this or we are are we not allowed to make that condition we can make make that part of the management plan that they comply with the residential residential rental process as well as logging complaints with the city um as well right yeah so this isn't an opportunity to mend conditions or add conditions to the permit so um you know you can work with the applicant on on suggesting things you'd like to see in the management in in this owner's management plan uh and you know work on that together to get to the the management plan that you would accept as being updated okay so I think Mr Patel um I don't have any problem with you running this runting out this prop prop and managing it but this this management plan is is needs updating as Mr um Mr MOA stated and I I would think we ALS you also should have in the management in your management plan a recognition that you need that you will get um the U you'll comply with the residential rental um provisions of the amous bylaw as well as um we'll share with you uh the condition language that is contained in conditions that you could voluntarily clude into your management plan that would require you to um inform this the city when you have um complaints and when you renew your your residential um permit rental permit you have to file those as well so we'll give you those if you can come up with that if you come up with those Provisions then I think this should be uh it could be approved so what I'd like to do is have you uh work with the staff immediately come up with that and we could either delegate the staff to approve it based on that or I but I think you probably want to just come back and show that to us and we can quickly approve the management plan it would be my preference and we can do that with at the next meeting if you can do that okay is that are you amable to that so I just need to make a management plan and submit to who well you could I think you should submit it so that we could re reexamine it at our next meeting if you can make the submit the management plan with those changes work with the staff and then we could have you up at the next as soon as you know as soon as possible and just review it are you would that be fine with you yeah that's fine okay so why don't we do that Miss bre I see your hand is up yeah I suggest that Mr Patel make an appointment to meet with um Miss Williams and Mr Mora to um flesh out these things to make sure that he includes everything that is necessary in the management plan and then he can bring that back at the next um opportunity to the zba for approval that sounds great so you'll do that Mr Patel and then we'll put you on the agenda for the as as soon as that's we'll put you on the next next meeting agenda so we don't delay this very much longer sure no problem all right let's do that so I guess what we would want to do here is do we need to officially continue this as a public meeting or do we just we don't need to vote on that all right so you come back and you'll put it on the agenda the staff will put it on the agenda great so we've dealt with um and thank you Mr Patel we look forward to seeing you in in just a couple of weeks thank you thank you for your time good luck thank you um next order of business is we're going back to a public hearing zba FY 20248 mathen morisy request for a special permit under Section 3.3 211 of the zoning bylaw to convert a single family uh dwelling into a non-owner occupied duplex with a requested waiver from the sign plan 180 North Whitney Street map 11d parcel 261 RG General residence zoning District this is Contin from June 27th 2024 I guess what I'd like to do is um note what I think are additional submissions that we've received one is from Athena moresi I don't have a date on it but it identifies Four Points um which include an updated site plan parking spaces an updated lease she I she references the updated lease and she attached at that she's proposing a neighborhood block party and um said she's willing to work and the fourth point is Will to work with neighborhoods and creating a a calming traffic struct infrastructure um we've also received I think since the last meeting comments from public comments from Florence rosenstock that came in on I don't have a date on it but I noticed it was forwarded on June 20th I have um we received a public comment on June 25th from Kurt Weise and Rachel broot this may have already been submitted but I want to make sure everything is in the record we've also received a it looks like a June 25th but from Lori tanon Bal which I'm not sure got into the record at the time but I want make sure that her email was included in the record as a as for our um additional public comments and if we have the I'm looking for the project application report here is there any and there is uh updated management plan submitted on July 9th an application update with site plans and details we have a sample Le a new sample lease um a new sheet sp1 site prepared by Robert Levesque and those are the was the new the new um applic submissions I think we've yeah we've identified the new public comments and that's it so um the next thing is for the um the applicant to make the presentation and I think Mr REI um you're representing the applicant correct I am Mr chair what we'll do is why don't we get your presentation or and when you end the presentation we'll take our five minute break and then we'll come back all right okay yeah that sounds great uh for the record Tom Rey attorney with bacon Wilson and ammer 6 Southeast Street here on behalf of the applicant and with me this evening I've got mathena morisy uh you probably recognized from last time and also her dad Jim morresy um so yeah Mr chair I know you had gone through the list of the material that was submitted I think what I'd like to do is just re acclimate everybody to the neighborhood talk a little bit about the zoning District the powers of the zoning board of appeals in that zoning district for this specific circumstance and then talk just a little bit about show you the updated site plan and then just talk a little bit about what you said in the management plan and then it's probably a good time to break after that so what I will do again just to acclimate everybody to where we are this is 180 North Whitney Street right here um amorist uh schools and I could zoom out to show you a little bit more um we've got for the zoning map this is zoned RG and so that's General residence zoning District this use uh nonon occupied duplex is allowed by special permit in the zoning District um the in this zoning District the lot area that is required for uh a two family is actually 14,500 ft this lot has a little over 22,000 Square ft and so it actually could have uh an apartment a three family on it so it's got sufficient area in that instance you would need 20,000 square feet this would have that 20,000 square feet the applicant isn't seeking an apartment they're just seeking a non-owner occupied two family what's unique in this zoning District about a non-owner occupied two family is that the permit expires upon change of ownership and so that's actually built into uh your use table 33211 uh the third one under there in the RG District a special permit granted under this section shall laps upon any change of ownership of the subject property and so you know for the board's consideration when you're issuing this permit you're issuing it to mathena and and her dad um for uh the life that they own this property the next phrase in that section is the special permit Grant Authority May impose a review of compliance with special permit conditions at such intervals as it deems reasonable and so something to consider for the board is if you wanted to put a frequency let's say um the board issues this permit with conditions and then puts a condition there with where a year from the receipt of a certificate of occupancy mathena has to come back for a review of compliance uh of the conditions and just to frankly see how it's gone um one other piece to mention here is and and you know I think Mr judge I don't know if Mr meows was on when when Mr parent was the the chair but he would often talk about the use of the use and I think that's what we're really talking about here you know as a single family home there aren't conditions that the town can place on this um there's no real limitation to the number of guests there's not that uh hook attached so to speak you wouldn't have the ability to upon change of ownership uh really do anything it could go to a new owner um and there is no expiration and there is no review of compliance with any conditions because there aren't any conditions in a single family home and so I remember I remember Mr parent would always say allowing this non- under occupied duplex also then allows the town to place conditions to ensure the proper use management and operation of this property and so just as as you know you're going to hear from the abuts tonight I'm sure they're going to have different comments I want the board just to remember those items it expires upon change of ownership um it's the use of the use and also you have the ability to put a a condition on the review of the compliance and so what I'll do is I'll show you the updated site plan and then we'll talk a little bit about that management uh um let me bring up the site plan and it's it's a a really simple change that um mathena made to the site plan and it really was uh in response to what we heard at the last hearing um it is to so if you if you can see my screen we've got on this side this is the the driveway um North is to the right this is the driveway that had existed and then you've got one two three four five six seven eight nine 10 parking spaces now onsite you know some of the um testimony that we heard was a fear of on street parking I think again going back to the size of this site in relation to the RG zoning District generally and and that there is excess area at the site and instead of putting another unit Matha is looking to have this site operate appropriately for those two units which then allows you know it's these 10 parking spaces um it would allow eight spaces to be designated for both units combined and have two parking spaces available for guests doesn't take into account any area within the driveway where um if there was an additional guest then that guest could park you double Park so to speak behind one of the other uh vehicles um speaking about guests uh mathena has updated the lease to include a guest policy where there's there can be no more than 10 guests per unit except in extraordinary circumstances so let's say a family is renting this and a child's having a birthday uh in that circumstance it's likely that with uh consent of the landowner they would be allowed to have more than 10 guests but at that point they at least have to come back to the land owner before they can just have that many people at the property um we've also got a couple additional ideas uh mathena grew up in ammer one of her suggestions and that she found very useful was um dispelling any fear of the unknown and we I know we've heard a lot about uh these are going to be students these are going to be students well first of all there's no guarantee they're going to be students I think Matha looks at this as an investment and uh she's going to be spending real money to to uh she built she spent real to buy the place she spent real money to fix it up and she's spending real money to add on to it and so she wants that investment protected and so she's going to find the best tenants for this space and and I would probably suggest that the best doesn't just mean the most money uh it means because that's shortsighted to just take the the biggest dollar amount instead of actually finding somebody who's going to care for the property because wear and tear will will even if you make another hundred bucks a month uh from let's say a a student versus less from a family the wear and tear potentially on the building um would knock out any gains that you would make and so I think she's looking for the the right tenant um and so you know I think she's she's thought about having block parties to allow the neighborhood to meet who's going to be residing here and to me it was was a very creative idea and I think that can help even if it is student um there's something about looking in somebody else's face and understanding that there are families living here or if there's a problem to to call and it takes away it dispels some of the fear of the unknown and so that's one of the suggestions I don't know I mean we could think about how to make that a condition I think it's an effort maybe nobody shows up but at least it's an effort and then and then lastly um maa's she reached out to the Department of Public Works to find out about sidewalks and speed bumps they were relatively supportive I'd say and meth I'll turn it over to you in a minute to um see if you've got uh anything else to say but um they we then suggested she go and talk to the police department and fire department because of emergency response and and putting um speed bumps on the public way takes a little bit more than mathena could do but she'd be happy to spearhead some Endeavor with the neighborhood to try to get either or both of those things to happen and so you know again I I keep saying mathena but that's what you that's who you're issuing this approval to it's mathena and her dad both local folks um who you grow up grew up and now her dad lives in ammer and is going to manage this property so Matha I'll turn it over to you I don't know if there's anything I skipped over or you want to add but that's Mr chair just a high level view thank you Mr Ry Miss missina um or Miss Mory please give us your name and address for the record please sure Matha morrisy 23 BlackBerry in ammer thank you um yeah thank you Tom I think that's a great summary uh just to add a little bit more color and context here um so in terms of the block party again this is kind of dependent on if students are to live there um and so it's not necessarily a guarantee um but in my personal experience uh I grew up in the Blackberry grantwood neighborhood where there were a mix of student and um families and so we actually did that in this neighborhood um and it basically allowed all of the different parties living in the neighborhood to integrate get to know each other um we used to have so the UMass um housing department I spoke to them they say that they actually handle situations like this all the time they offer um a good neighbor Grant which is basically a $500 stipend to um host a block party we used to have um the cops come so we spoke to the officer that used to do our neighborhood officer laramy um and he you know was happy to do this again Should students be the tenants but it really gave everyone a great opportunity to connect exchange phone numbers and set expectations for the year um so again that is only if there are to be students but it was a very successful thing in my neighborhood growing up um and then second on the speed bumps again these are a little bit above uh beyond my control but I did speak to um the fire department and the engineering department at the DPW um and it sounds like as a next step it I makes most sense to reach out to the transportation advisory committee um so I'm happy to lead the charge on that thank you Miss Mory anything else from the um the applicants I don't think so Mr chair I mean it's it's as I said it's a standard non-owner occupied two family granted to mathena with her her dad managing um that expires upon change of ownership and if the board is inclined to put a review of the compliance let's say a year from Co you know I think that'd be acceptable to to mathena great so we're looking at 726 6 um why don't we take our traditional 5 minute break and we can come back right around 7:31 great we're going have time for board questions and then public comments thank you for e for 7 for for [Music] for for for for all right we're back um Mr re Miss morsy you've completed your presentation yes Mr chair it's time for any questions from board members for the applicant before we move to public comments all right no questions from board members from the applicants time for public comment um the public speaks at the uh discretion of the with permission of the chair we're going to ask you to keep your comments to about um three minutes I'm going to start a timer here to help you keep to that time limit um when you are recognized please give your name and address for the records uh address your comments to the board and not to individuals and we can start with the uh the first person who wishes to comment and jenta will you bring on Mr Benjamin Bailey sure the first person is Jamie I believe they had their hand up first okay first person whoever it is uh hello Mr chair do you want the camera on or do you not care that's fine put your camera on I don't think it'll work we just we just get voice okay I just uh at the start of each zba meeting sorry James sing uh 179 North Whitney Street a butter across the road um at the start of each zba meeting uh the chair uh talks about promoting the health safety and convenience of residents of amist you've heard from many many neighbors of our concern in this regard um I'd like to particularly draw attention to uh children uh elderly people disabled people and special needs people who live within close proximity of this property uh adding a 10 uh Lane High sorry not a highway a parking lot in uh uh across the road uh is not going to solve that you're going to have people coming in and out of that that lot so I think knowingly approving a special permit which would result in activities which would potentially jeopardize this seems in direct conflict of your stated responsibil abilities as the board um I'm concerned about noise issues but I don't have time to go into them uh I'm particularly concerned about a change of character of the neighborhood uh if this special permit is allowed as a non-owner occupied uh the petitioner claims to live in Amherst uh but we know she lives in New York City if she lives in Amherst she can live in the the in the house and come and ask as a owner occupied um I'd like you've seen the petition from all of us the letters this is the fifth or sixth meeting that I've had to attend on this uh if we're talking about convenience this is not convenient um I feel like we're pricing out families in this town by approving things like this and this continues to hurt our schools um so in my opinion if you should approve this special permit it would go against the the wishes of the families in the neighborhood in favor of a New York City resident who's looking to develop student hous thank you thank you Mr um ana uh who's up next Jinta Benjamin Bailey Mr Bailey please give us your name and address for the record Mr Bailey you're muted okay no we can't please give us your name and address for the record my name is Benjamin Bailey I live at 165 North Whitney street diagonally across the street from 180 North Whitney I've lived here for 23 years 58 people from up and down North Whitney Street and Redgate Lane and High Street have signed a petition opposing the special permit to convert the single family home at 180 North Whitney to a non-owner occupi duplex signers have included the abutters up the street abutters across the street abutters down the street and abutters from behind the house these signers and neighbors have lived here for 10 20 30 40 and more years we are unanimous in finding that an 8 bedroom non owner occupied duplex at 180 North Whitney is not in character with the neighborhood and would degrade the neighborhood we already know that non-owner occupation non-owner occupation on our street has this effect when 174 for North Whitney the house next door to 180 North Whitney went from owner occupied to non-owner occupied in 2018 it created numerous quality of life issues for the neighborhood no management plan can can fix this it harmed us miss Schwarz described these eloquently in the first public comment at the first meeting the owner occupi versus non-owner occupied distinction makes all the difference in the world if uh Miss moriset were living there I'm sure it would be fine as Jamie sweding just said the fact that you can't have this nonon owner occupied duplex by right is reflected in the zoning L laws although I don't see 180 North Whitney Street as currently for rent the owner did list it for 4,400 a month in the spring and early summer this makes it clear the owner is aiming for student renters no one else rents a small house in AMR for 4,400 a month Miss morresy would have every right to rent to students and the economics of investment properties means she will will in fact rent to students I'm a landlord myself and the economic pressures are enormous to rent to UMass undergrads eight students at that property would rob a Butters and the neighborhood of our quality of life the people who know this neighborhood and care about it the most are unanimously opposed to allowing this house to become a non-owner occupied duplex thank you Mr Bailey um Miss Williams Nancy Schwarz Miss Schwarz could you give us your name and address for the record please all right I believe I'm not on mute now yep you're we can hear you yeah thank you very much I'm not sure if I'll be as eloquent as maybe I was that Benjamin Bailey was referring to but I am uh a butter I live at 153 High Street we own and occupy and owner occupied to family we've been here for 32 years I mean I I think I said last meeting uh my fears of a non-owner occupied unit and I don't need to go into all the details about uncontrolled noise and those things I I do have some questions for the board as to what criteria do you use when you determine to give a permit for a non-owner occupied to family versus an owner occupied to family I would like to I would like to know how how you take into account uh those two choices I would also ask that if any permit is given that all AB Butters be given directly a direct phone number to the person who is managing the property so that we can reach them at all hours of the day and night if there's a problem with noise and parties and Loud conversations at 2: to 4: a.m. my last point is about the property adjacent to them right in back of my house at 174 North Whitney it had been an owner occupied three family up until it was soul in 2018 at that point there was never a special permit or no kind of hearings and it is now a non-owner occupied three family I would like to understand how that change of classification happened with a change of ownership and there was no hearing there was no public notification and if if things fall through the cracks like that couldn't it also happen at 180 North Whitney Street with a change in ownership so I'll just end my end my comments with that and I really thank all of you for uh listening to us thank you very much Miss Schwartz um Miss Williams Amy sweding should be entering shortly um hi hi can you hear me we can just give us your name address yeah I I spoke at length at the at the very first meeting so I'm not going to go back into all the things we've talked about about safety andise just start with just start with your name and address please hear me yeah I can but I just want you to start with your name and address for the record please I'm sorry can okay I'm sorry um I just want to just reiterate the I the the point about the character of the neighborhood we live uh again Amy sweding 179 North Whitney Street my husband spoke earlier we live right across the street and since this began every day when I walk out the front door of my house and I look across the street and I imagine and I thought it was going to be an eightc car parking lot now we're talking about a 10c car parking lot and other cars potentially on the street it just breaks my heart this is a neighborhood of little kids families um and just changing that changing that property to a you know it's it's called a two family two dup but it will be an eight student dormatory with 10 a 10ar parking lot just irreversibly changes the character of this part of the street and we've talked about you know the ability to put in um qualifications that there needs to be a review of compliance and we can check in and see how it's gone and it doesn't matter how it's gone once this goes ahead because it's irreversible it's never going back if it's sold to someone else it will be sold to someone else as a student dormatory with a parking lot so I just feel like you know if if it if it stays how it is and it gets rented to four students that's fine and we would like you know we'd obviously like there to be conditions and hopefully they'll be good neighbors but it could go back to a single family home one day but the with the if this permit goes ahead and this construction goes ahead it will never go back to a family home and I just want to add one more thing we talked about um you talked about that um the petitioner has talked to the the town about getting sidewalks put in and cming our children who are now in their 20s grew up here and walked across the street and down skillings path to school for you know 10 however many years and we were always worried about them coming out of skilling's path onto our street where there was no sidewalk on that side of the street and we asked the town multiple times about putting in a sidewalk there and making it safer for the people that come out of skillings bath and they I believe one time they put some mulch down on the road but there I just don't think you know we've been asking for over a decade for a sidewalk over there so it is it is already a dicey spot to come out of the woods there and just to rate all the safety things that people have talked about with the more more cars and cars going in and out of that parking lot I just would encourage you to remember that and just to really remember that our concerns about that Benjamin spoke much more eloquently about about the character of this neighborhood that we all bought into and raised our children in and love this neighborhood thank you thank you Miss sweding um Miss Williams who's next Andrew Spiel vocal sorry about that that was [Music] me I don't know why my timer is doing that hold on I'm [Music] sorry all right that's my technical mistake there all right Mr Spiel vogo please uh give your name and address for the record and I'll try to time you quietly hi my name is Andrew Spiel wle I live at 33 Red Gate Lane just up the street and I guess um when we bought our house uh bought into this neighborhood we did so because it's a very quiet family uh family oriented neighborhood it is owned as a single family neighborhood and we made the reasonable assumption that the neighborhood would continue to be single family homes um I use the language reasonable assumption specifically because that was a phrase that was used by a zba board member at a previous meeting when talking about the reasonable assumption that a house would be built on a flag lot I think that language is applicable here as well when buying a house in when buying our house into a single family neighborhood we also made a reasonable assumption that the houses would continue to Zone as single family homes or non or owner occupied multif family homes um I think that having a converted multif family um not owner occupied investment property in our neighborhood is out of character with the neighborhood and it's also against the zoning and that's why they need a special permit um there are many issues that we've that have been highlighted in the many letters um having to do with added traffic the blind Corner safety parking General noise issues which are do documented throughout ammer and non-owner occupied rentals um I guess one other thing with the increased parking lot are there any guidelines like just black topping a massive amount of space part of your yard that used to be grass so there no issues with like permeability and runoff associated with that the additional black top um I guess another point I another question I ask myself is what is the point of zoning if an out ofate owner can buy a property convert it to a two family and immediately rent it out all against the wishes of an entire neighborhood um and ultimately when there are issues with this property it is not the out ofate owner or her father who who manages it who have to deal with the repercussions it's our neighborhood um I guess one last part is um I feel like by um approving this non-owner occupied multi family permit you would be kind of setting a precedent for single family conversions into multif family non-owner occupied rentals in single family neighborhoods and I think that this would continue to drive to price out the full-time community that makes ammer such a great place to live investors will slowly buy up the single homes and I don't know about other members of the neighborhood but I get mailers from investors wanting to buy our house multiple times a month um and I guess my last point if we're going to make so many investments in our school system the public library and other infrastructure in amers shouldn't we also protect the neighborhoods where the residents who will use those resources live thank you how you help thank you Mr spielo um Miss Winters or Miss Williams please give us the next person um yoav ilinsky Mr elinsky you're um you're muted right now okay thank you thank you my name is Yo aeni I live in 11 Redgate Lane and I thank you for this hearing the chair read the mission statement of this board at the beginning of the meeting I humbly want to repeat it the zoning board operates for the purpose of promoting the health safety convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of emers period every single purpose listed here will be impacted negatively by this proposal more traffic more pollution more noise greater dangers to cars and Walkers since the house is adjacent to a dangerous blind curve and we can go on every neighbor knows it and every Zoning Board member should know it by now an approval of this proposal by the board which will turn the property into a student dorm structure will be a violation of the mission of this board as well as a violation of a democratic principle because clearly the neighborhood while welcoming a new family to join us is overwhelmingly if not thought opposed to this proposal moreover because such a an approval will violate the mission of this board it will also be a violation of the public trust in the board if an accident occur again since we witness a number of accident at this curve in the past and someone get hurt because of the student parking on the street it will be because of your grave error in judgment let's not get there 10 parking spaces will turn a nice backyard into a cement to asphal space how healthy that will be shame of you if you will make this negative transformation block party or speed bumps is a joke it will make no difference to the big issues thank you very much thank you Mr elinski Mary Anderson thank you Miss Anderson give us your name and address for the record please miss Anderson there it is I had to hit the unmute okay Mary Anderson I own the property at 191 north Whitney Street so I'm across the street from the property and sing's path seems to empty on directly onto my driveway in some people's way of thinking anyway so that's always been a problem I am I join everyone I hate to follow yo off that was such an eloquent everything I would have said he said better so we'll skip that and not bore you but here's the other thing once you do this it's like dominoes you can't go back from this and so what happens is someone else decides well what the hell I'm going to add on or I'm going to and and pretty soon you destroyed the neighborhood that's exactly how it occurs and I I would recommend that since everybody's main objection seems to be traffic you do two things one you'll have to red paint the area there so that nobody can stop and park there and that'll eliminate the parking problem and it's inconvenient for the residents this is true I apologize for that but the other thing is is you need to declare a moratorium on these kinds of things until the town can get their act together and put in appropriate streets and sidewalks at least there's a sidewalk on North Whitney Street there's not even a sidewalk on Redgate Lane and know that some people live in this fantasy that amorist is going to turn into Switzerland and everybody's going to be on foot and oh won't it be lovely carrying their bagett no it won't and it's never going to happen so you at the very least need sidewalks since one the one of the selling points is the proximity for walking to the university and nothing should be done until the town fixes the in infrastructure to accommodate the outrageous number of vehicles that are now allowed to come into this town because the university refused to take responsibility and cap its enrollment which is another story but I'm opposed to this as you can tell for all the reasons everybody else said okay I'm done thank you for listening thank you Miss Anderson is there anybody no well wait hold on one more person let's just give it a second okay um Julia I apologize Julia R is going to join us let her pronounce her last name okay um my name is Julia RM I am in a butter I guess I live across the street at 165 North Whitney Street um a couple of things I'm not going to read everything because we've had some really great people articulating all the arguments here but I want I want to point out I'm an attorney we have a presumption here there's a presumption that this is not allowed right so if you're going to rebut that presumption you have to have a really good reason of why this is going to make the neighborhood better why this is going to make the neighborhood more harmonious why this is something that's going to be very beneficial to the town of Amerson to the town area of this neighborhood I haven't heard one argument about why this presumption should be rebutted and someone can corre correct me if I'm wrong but I I haven't heard any advantages for all your criteria that you list here about the harmonious relationship the character of the town it's going to be better for traffic none of that right it's all going to be worse and under all those categories so legally speaking I'm just not sure I've heard any legal rationale and certainly that's the underpinning of of the zoning bylaws right the legal part of it um secondly we have schools the two biggest schools in our whole town are yards you know couple hundred yards away from this location why is that a good location for students this is for for kids you're you're and W Wildwood's there now too Pro you know it won't be an elementary school for very long but that's there are hundreds and hundreds of kids all in this neighborhood that are going to these two schools it's a perfect family neighborhood and in fact it's one of the few affordable family neighborhoods still remaining in town um so I think that's important to consider the N the character of the neighborhood is also that it's it's the vicinity of the schools um finally I guess I would just say you know 58 people signed this petition have you I mean I don't know how often have you gotten that many people are this upset about a development and if you're if you're you know when would you not approve a development like this like what I can't even imagine in another circumstance where it would be so many people opposed such not in the character of the neighborhood um so yeah that that's just kind of puzzling me and I just I urge you to keep that in mind you know if you if you approve uh this one it just seems like there's absolutely no safeguards at all and no reason for us to have a zoning by law with these presumptions against this and the owner is certainly welcome to live there and and rent it out and do that that way but the presumption is against this so show me another circumstance where you where you know you would approve this um or not approve this I'd be very curious that's all thank you Miss rme Elena Davis hi can you hear me can Miss Davis can we get your name and address for the record sure it's actually Elena Davis I live at 20 Clifton a which is basically my property is on the corner of Whitney North Whitney Street so I walk up and down the street every day um I I don't want to repeat all of the very eloquent points that um all of my neighbors have made I think I just wanted to throw in um you know a a note that I empathize with the buyer in this whole situation um you know I imagine that this seemed like really a wonderful opportunity at the outset you know I think the plans that were drawn up were very well done you know it looked like a beautiful plan um and I'm sorry sorry that she didn't have a chance to you know walk around the neighborhood before the purchase and talk to some of the neighbors um about how such a proposal would go over you know with everyone living surrounding this property um it's nothing personal again I think that I'm sure she had the best intentions and I appreciate her um you know Enterprise but clearly there are um enormous number of reasons why this is just not the right property for this kind of a um of a project I'm not going to repeat all of the points that others said but I'm I'm sorry for the buyer that you know she's not hearing a lot of hopeful comments from people um but we really are very um protective of our of our neighborhood um you know we all purchased homes expecting it um to remain as it was and um you know I'm sorry for her but this is just not the right place for this kind of a project thank you thank you Miss Davis do you have other people who wish to speak there other members of the public who wish to speak uh do so now so indicate by raising using the raised hand function on your computer I'm not seeing any additional hands neither am I all right we'll close off public comments and the next order is for the opportunity for the applicant to respond to the public comments and then we'll go to the opportunity for board members to ask questions either solic elicited by the comments or on questions that they have on their own so Mr Rey or Miss morrisy um you wish to respond yeah maybe just a a few of them and I'd like to get a little bit of a sense of the board I've been doing this a while so i' I'd like to get a little bit of a sense but um you know fundamentally uh I think uh attorney rme had mentioned rebuttable presumptions and unfortunately that's not how this process does work often times in law as you know there are presumptions that need to be overcome burdens of proof Etc special permit here is it's an allowed use folks had said and I think it was Mr uh spiel vog had said it's it's against zoning and that's why we need a special permit in fact it's allowed by zoning the the medium is through a special permit and I'm talking technically a little bit that's if this was a owner occupied to family uh I think to miss schwarz's question uh we wouldn't even be in front of the zoning board of appeals we would be in front of the planning board through site plan review and they have a section 11 that they go through uh to see if it's compliant and and it is concerned more with site design versus as you know 10.38 Zoning Board of appeal special permit deals really with the the use of the use and there is discretion for the board right so I'm not saying uh there is you have to give it that's where the special premit comes in if it was against zoning we would either not be in front of you or we'd be in front of you in the context of a variance which we don't even have to get into that you know specifically use variances aren't allowed in in pound so just somewhat fundamentally is what are you doing you're granting a special permit with or you know we're asking you Grant a special permit which uh is an allowed use in this zoning district for not under occupied two family dwellings um a couple of responses as to the the the for the site plan uh there is storm water management you know and kind of CAU between a rock and a hard place because we're trying to provide sufficient on-site parking um and even with that parking uh we are looking to increase the lot cover aage it's 29% 40% is what is allowed in this zoning district with all of what we're proposing we're under 30% so you know again this is an oversized lot could have additional building area it that's not what we're proposing you know we're just we're proposing a non-owner occupied two family dwelling um as far as benefits I think additional housing is probably the biggest benefit and sometimes it goes without saying because it's relatively self-evident but I mean we're in a housing crisis and providing additional housing period is providing additional housing uh if it's student housing well that those are students that are that might have instead of going into a single family home somewhere or or somewhere else they're they're live they're going to live here and that opens up housing for fam like housing is housing is housing um and so this does provide housing it provides additional taxes because the assessment's going to be higher and you know again if the neighborhood does want to fundamentally change what could go here I think there is a remedy and it's through the Town Council uh through zoning maybe a zoning map amendment to reclassify part of this zoning District as a neighborhood residence um or you know a different zoning District uh but but that's really you know to put it on the zoning board of appeals to act as that Arbiter you're really just facing the fact of what the zoning byw which has been passed through the legislative know at that time town meeting now Town Council um you're just looking to abide by those rules as our we uh and not necessarily create them so you know kind of highlevel responses uh and then maybe lastly uh I'll say call Jim so somebody asked uh if they could have his number uh yes I think whoever the manager is Jim here he would give the number if there is an issue at 2 am call him and I don't know if if maybe Jim if you want to talk a little bit about managing properties um because again I can appreciate um what the what the neighbors are saying and and just before you go Jim let me show one uh screen just to show these are um non-owner occupied so the purple is the subject property the the blue highlighted are non-owner occupied uh residential dwelling units within a thousand feet of the property and so you know there's different categories you can look at the gis system two family three family rental permits right we could look up rental permits and see um you know what we're dealing with there so I'm just going to go to rental permits and you can see this is what's in the neighborhood there there are rentals you know right across skillings Trail there's a rental diagonal there's a rental next to there are rentals so it's not like you know when we're talking about the neighborhood the the folks out of this whole area because this is a pretty dense area who have come out and I know they say 58 have signed the uh the letter and I know there's a lot here and and mathena is listening um I just want to make sure that the characterization of the neighborhood does also take into consideration wh sorry I hit the wrong thing take into consideration um what's happening on the ground and that there are a lot of rentals there so I'll leave you with that and Jim I'll I'll let you go he thank you for having me Jim Mory 23 Blackberry Lane Amis Mass um yeah I you know thank you Tom I I I think that was great because you know I mean I've heard a lot tonight from the residents and uh it tends to be negative it's emotional um it's opinion-based and uh you know it's overlooking you know uh data and facts uh if you even go a little bit further down North Whitney there's a very large development um owned by a friend of mine who manages it very very well of non-owner occupied multif family housing how many units but it's an excess of 30 so you know with that said um you know I believe and and management philosophy okay uh number one this is my daughter's property it's her investment okay uh and she loves architecture ever since she was a kid loves building all those sorts of things so you know bought the house fix it up we'll add on to it and we'll manage it as properly okay um you know uh I live five minutes down the road okay if people want my phone number I will gladly give it to them they can call me at 2 am because you know if you have a well-designed wellb built nice property okay you will get good tenants all right and in order to reinforce that um you you do your background checks okay you vet who you're going to rent to right this is our house our investment our property and we care a lot about our investments and our property we're not going to turn it over to people who are going to abuse it and we don't want to be the people who move into the neighborhood and trash the place okay I mean so you know um I know I'm a little bit of emotional but I I sat and I listen to a lot of people make various assumptions people who do not know me they don't know the way I operate I'm friendly I'm available I run a tight ship when it comes to management I have professional experience in Facilities Management commercial property uh development and management and residential property development management um you know it's it's not difficult to have a well-managed property that is not a nuisance to the neighborhood and is not a nuisance to all the residents um and I'll back that up by giving my phone number to everybody you know that's fine I will drive by there every single day on my way home from work all right if I have to um I I will be extraordinarily responsive to the tenants I'll be extraordinary responsible to the neighborhood I'll be extraordinarily responsible to my daughter on this and you know integration again uh you know and on BlackBerry when they started those Blackberry those block parties right everyone's well nobody will show up you'll try it anyway well guess what everybody showed up you know and people brought cookies and they had face taces and they you know got to know each other uh the the police were there they they've laid it down uh the neighbors laid down their concerns and all of a sudden there were no cars parked on the street within you know H uh two years of these things uh there were no more noise complaints turned their music down by 10 o'clock um and all those problems that were quote unquote ruining the neighborhood destroying Amor and all that they disappeared through good clear honest communication and integration you know when people get to know each other right they're they're less likely to be negligent in their behavior around those people that's been my experience dealing with people in in a management environment so I would continue to do exactly that um I so um I guess that's that's my case okay I'm the local guy I'm here I know what I'm doing I'll run a tight ship um like I said I get my phone number out there and you know if you want to put a condition and review this thing a year after see youo fine I mean that's fair you know we'll walk the walk that okay thank you Mr Marcy thank you you're welcome um any other comments from or responses from the applicant before we move to board questions I guess I'd have a couple of quick questions um so I'm looking I don't I don't seem to have a complaint response form in front of me I may have misplaced it um Miss Williams do we have a complaint response form from the applicant I believe we do one second so once you pull that up so You' be just to clarify you'd be happy with a condition that said that um you'd give your number um for contact by any neighbor who's concerned about the complaint all right um so that may be um a condition we would think about secondly um I would would you be willing to I think you'd have to be willing to accept a condition that you participate in the rental residential rental program the approval program right uh because that's not a condition that's listed secondly uh what about the provision that we've ATT attached to many um rental properties and we're trying to do it consistently but that you keep a list a log of complaints that those complaints be submitted to the building to the town that upon annual um renewal of your rental property those conditions those complaints are listed and turned into the town along with the the resident okay so we need to get that language if that's something I think you'd be you be approve that um I guess those are the questions so that's something you would do you would approve with yeah those are all I mean those are all acceptable Mr chair all right other questions from members of the board for the applicant and I just run through that I I just misplaced it thank you Miss Williams I appreciate that so Property Owners just scroll down a little bit farther is that your number there of the the 439 I I I don't want to give out your number to the whole public Mr morsey but but it's it's a file document is that your number that's my number that's your number all right and that's Jim's number right there okay so it's on the list all right y okay thank you other questions from board members Mr Henry I see your hands up Mr White was first who oh Mr White yep you're fading into the books on the the left upper leftand side go ahead hey we'll get there eventually it's fine um no my question would be I know that there was some speaking the management plan and also tonight about you know a block party um if this request were to be approved my question is more along the lines of what action if any um has been taken thus far to speak with the neighborhood speak with the members of the neighborhood and to you know try to address any sort of issues that they've had de I'll let you pick that one um sure so actually back in June when um I had heard about some of the neighborhood responses I did reach out to the organizer um to try and speak about you know my intentions and everything um and he was not open to a conversation um and so I wasn't able to really push that forward um so you know I'm happy to talk to any of the neighbors I'm happy to have those conversations should they um you know be open to them but given they were so so closed off all I could really do was go ahead and you know think of a block party and speed bumps and guest policy and all of those things that were in my control thank you Mr White um Mr Henry thank you Mr chair so we've heard a lot from The Neighbors about preserving the character of the neighborhood and and thank you Mr re for that map um can anyone either from the applicants or town staff advise if this neighborhood has an HOA I I'm pretty sure it doesn't um this neighborhood doesn't have an HOA because it's not set up that way it would be set up that way if it were a condo association or possibly a subdivision but this is an old neighborhood that's been around for you know 100 years or more and so it's not typical that it would have an HOA if it did i' be very surprised and I thought so and and the other question is um even months before today a lot of conversation has been about traffic safety and I I heard someone say today that we shouldn't Grant this permit until the town does something about traffic and [Music] um has can the can anyone from the town advise if any of these neighbors um have gone to this city hall or town hall to actually petition that the sidewalk that everyone is so strong about to have the sidewalk built or potition the town to do anything about traffic in this neighborhood because a big concern here has been that there's traffic or this is going to create more traffic hazards and there's no sidewalk so is there any in that we have to suggest that the neighbors have voiced that concern to the authorities other than to the petitioners m bre um we would have to ask the Department of Public Works but those um comments and requests tend to come in sort of um I won't say haphazardly but it it isn't something that's necessarily tracked so they may have made suggestions or requests over the years but I don't think that um there would be a clear uh record of those complaints and requests I would add Mr Henry that there was one public comment that referred to um a request of City Hall to for a sidewalk I don't know when that request was made I don't think there was a date given and they said the response had been to put some um mulch down that was tonight and but that's the extent of I heard from the public comments was that there at least was one person who had Tau to the City Hall but I don't know when that was and and how how concerted an effort that was okay thank you any other comments questions from board members Mr White did you get the chance to ask all your questions yep okay Mr Meadows I think Mr REI was looking for something he suggested a little bit earlier and uh I think to AED to his request I will say that I I I went over there before the meeting walked there even though I've walked on that hundreds of times on that street and skilling's path it is not a safe location to put additional students and I will not vote for this so I know you were looking for that there's the comment I'll give you thank you um if there no other questions comments from members of the board I would entertain a motion that we keep open the public hearing but we move to the public meeting so we can discuss conditions deliberate on this matter and allow the board to discuss amongst ourselves our feelings about this property about this application so um I would entertain such a motion that we move to a public meeting while keeping the public hearing open everybody wants to do that all right and I I'll take that as a second because there were three moves so uh any discussion on the motion if not the vote occurs on the motion to move to public hearing public meeting while we keep the public hearing open the chair votes I Mr Meadows hi Mr White hi Mr Henry hi Mr SL hi great so what I'd like to do is to start this is I I just like to give some context and try to provide a little bit of background and balance the zba is empowered to make decisions to allow um a use or cons or a building that would not otherwise be allowed but for the public special per it is in of itself discretionary that is the the first thing the second thing is we can allow those we are and we do allow special permits quite frequently but when we allow those special permits we often condition them and I do remember Mr parent talking about the benefits of of conditions one thing about the special permit is that it allows us to create conditions that ameliorate and mitigate problems that the neighbors and the community may face or concerns that we have about the property and so in this case a single family that home can stay there could be rented out to students and it could have um and there would be any protection in terms of getting the landlord's number having a complaint response other kinds of things that may that we may want to impose upon that property um but for the special permit permit a special permit allows us to either Forstall or to correct problem properties in a way that um only can be done through the conditions of a special permit that's the benefit of the special permit for the zba and that's an important benefit and important uh Authority that the zba has and that's one of the decisions we have to make is can we permit this it can we fulfill Our obligation which is to make the findings we have to make under 10.38 and to live into the and to comply with the the um the the tenor and the general nature of the the um Mandate of the zba to provide for the safety and health and of con of amist so that's one side the other side is we have a we really have to make those findings we have to be able to make the findings that um that's required in 10.38 and we have to make findings that are just the general respon responsibilities of the of the zba one of those is our purpose is a special permit viw process is intended to ensure a harmonious relationship between the proposed development and its surrounding and ensure that proposals are consistent with the purpose and intent of this bylaw that's the general admonition to the zva that gives us you know the balancing we have to do secondly we have to make findings under 10.38 and 10.38 0 10.38 2 10. 385 in particular I think are app raise real questions uh about this application and make it hard for me to look at this application and make those findings um which they deal with suitability in the neighborhood deal with not constituting a nuisance air water pollution flood noise odor and U protects the joining premises against detrimental or offensive units uses so what we have is is there a way generally we try to find a way to condition the application so that we can make those findings that's why I I when I do the committee the agenda I like to do conditions first that then allow us to make the findings that we have to make but I don't know that we can do I'm not sure and I don't think we can make those conditions that will allow us to make those findings consistent with 10.38 so I'm troubled by this by the application and this is one of those that I can see a way where actually the community may be better off with a with a special permit the neighborhood may be better off because they'll have more access to um rental property the manager they'll be able to we'll be able to put conditions on how um the noise levels and and lighting and everything else it may be app may be better off but if this special permit isn't offered those things go those protections for the neighborhood go away so I think I think that's the balancing act that we have to make I tend to come down in this case that I think is very difficult to make such a a special permit decision to approve it but I'd like to hear what other people have to say before I um before we go further Mr sler thank you Mr chair I would like to explain my decision about this application in Greater detail than a simple yes or no vote on the motion I think that everyone concerned with this application deserves an explanation this is the opportunity during the public meeting I prepared these comments shortly before tonight's meeting to be sure I am clear and don't forget anything I've heard nothing this evening to change my view I have read everything I have received about this application since it was brought before the zba both from the applicant and the interested members of the community I attended the site visit looked closely at the surrounding neighborhood and attended all of the hearings I returned twice at different times of the day to see what life on the street is like I saw dog walkers and even people who walk or run without dogs if you can imagine such a thing I have given a lot of thought to the various issues and concerns associated with this application largely the effect of the proposed project on the neighborhood in spite of assertions that it is possible that a family could rent the proposed addition I find that unlikely to the point of it being virtually impossible for everything I have seen in the rental market in amorist I consider it exceedingly unlikely that a family would choose to pay $4,000 a month or more to live in a unit that is attached to one occupied by four college students therefore it is essentially certain that this property will have at least eight college students living on it there is clear data that shows that non-owner occupied multif family dwellings that are occupied entirely by college students have a greatly increased incidence of becoming nuisance properties we have seen too many examples of this the noise trash traffic Gatherings and late disturbances that are often present at the at those properties adversely affect the neighborhoods where they are located if this neighborhood was already dominated by those kinds of properties as some streets near the university are then it might be a different case but this neighborhood is nowhere near that point and needs to be protected my decision is not about students housing judgments about 20 year olds or anything other than the effect on the existing quality of life in the neighborhood with a non a non-owner occupied property with eight or more students and 10 parking spaces it is about the aspects of what makes a place a welcoming enjoyable place to live as the residents of this neighborhood have clearly claimed it to be feeling unsafe is not welcoming and enjoyable neither is noise gestion disturbances and all of the other problems that this proposal is likely to bring the number of cars and people that are almost certain to congregate on this lovely property in nice weather will likely change the nature of the neighborhood for the worse a significant part of this board's mandate is that as chairman judge mentioned is that we find that an application must satisfy findings 10. 382 10. 383 and 10. 385 if we find that the application does not satisfy those requirements we are actually directed to reject the application as far as I understand it I do not see how this application in spite of the assurances given by the applicant can satisfy those required findings for all of these reasons I will vote no on this application thank thank you Mr chair Mr Meadows I see your hands up right Mr SL I wanted to further explain my reason for voting no on this if Mr REI will put up the map again this afternoon just before the meeting I stood in front of this property I looked up the street up Red Gate and realized which I have before that not too far beyond the property the next property Beyond skilling's path you cannot see going down the slope to the front of the property it's a blind spot too many cars coming out of that property over time means that the children who go up and down skillings path to school to run and to walk in addition to the adults that go up and down that street on a constant basis walking running and simply being on the street are in danger if there are a lot more cars coming out of that property I I cannot vote for this because of the safety concerns that I have at that this moment for that area too many cars come speeding down Redgate which is a a steep down hill to make that turn right in front of the property if the property were somewhere else I might vote differently but not for this location thank you thank you Mr Meadows Mr White you have your hand up thank you CH Mr chair um so I would Echo a lot of what Mr sler and Mr Meadow said um I am gonna have a very difficult time finding that you know this does meet the project does meet the required funds um I understand and agree that every petition that comes before us should be seen individually and not as a part of a whole but I'm reminded of the multitude of times that we've had the conversation over the year of me being on this board as a full member about neighborhoods that are kind of too far gone uh with you know no longer being owner occupied single family homes but are now predominantly UMass students with a fair amount of Amber College as well um I think that this project simply just does not fit with the standing of the current neighborhood um and I think it would be possibly excellent if it were located somewhere else um in the town however where it's located I just don't know that I'm going to be able to approve the findings on this thank you thank you Mr Henry did you wish to speak I do Mr chair and thank you um I I I I am the sent an opinion um with this project I I I think that um understanding everything that the neighbors have said and with very valid concerns one of the things that's been very predominant in the feedback is about Amherst in the neighborhood being welcoming and the comments is anything but um it does represent wel Miss marsy and her dad is the town of Amherst um the the purpose of the zba is for the Ware of the town of Amhurst so while I appreciate that um the neighbors have very valid concerns they're asking us to essentially again ignore um certain person of Amhurst I what what is very difficult for me time after time is hearing the animosity to towards college students we live in a college town they are part of the community that is it it is not going to change there there are things that are going to happen and I am not advocating that we change every neighborhood to accommodate students but there's a presumption from everything I've heard that the only people that can live in this proposal property a rity CA students or C students with lots of cars I have been in neighborhoods where there are graduate students who are focusing on their PHD who wants a quiet neighborhood to live in but does not want to be where the rowy and the loud is so that assumption was not factored in here it is almost as if if you build a two family house it's going to be Rowdy C students and again understanding that the major concern and quite frankly the common theme against this project is traffic one car speeding down this road is a hazard to anyone walking on this street so multiple cars being there with safe drivers doesn't mean that one car coming down the curb that Mr Meadow pointed out cannot be a hazard I appreciate that 58 people got together signed a petition these 58 people should sign the same petition to the town of Amherst because again you know Miss Marcy owns this property she could live in this property one day we're we're saying to her that okay you know we would Grant you this per you know you should get this permit if you live there but if you're not going to live there we shouldn't do it it's I I I don't understand it it makes no sense to me whatsoever if she was living there it would be fine but because she's not living there it is not okay I I I don't get that argument I I don't fully appreciate or understand that so you know people talk about you know we've paid millions of dollars in taxes therefore we should have this or not have neighbor change a thousand yards from the map I saw it's like a thousand yards the neighborhood has already changed okay this this property from the side visit I did they're not proposing some monstrosity that's going to alter how the neighborhood looks they're building something that complement the neighborhood the only thing that is of grave concern here is who's going to live there and I find that problematic I do it it is that that is that is very problematic it's like who's going to live there if if I hear arguments about um well it's a three family house or a four family house that those are gen genine legitimate concerns okay but that's not what they're asking us to do we can and going back to Mr judge's earlier point I think the community is better having a special permit with these conditions to safeguard some of those concerns that you do have because again the house stands there's nothing to say that they can that should they rent this property that you won't get the tenant from Hell living there because again you know you're essentially saying you can rent to whever you want as is but if you decide to make a two family house you know we're very concerned of what's going to happen because it's going to be college kids they can it's I I we're there needs to be some kind of a consistency and I find that you know we I haven't seen that necessary consistency um on certain projects and and again um I I've lived in different neighborhoods in this town I live in neighborhoods that had no sidewalks which which I did not like I live in neighborhoods that have sidewalks and yes as someone who lives in a very residential neighborhood I do appreciate those concerns and yes I have mixed feelings because um I don't want my neighborhood to change but I also understand that I do not want to enouch in somebody else's right to do what they think think is appropriate for their families and their needs and this is something that is for the Morris's family and essentially that's that is what we're doing we are telling this young lady who grew up in the town of Amherst went to amers schools lives here and who potentially May one day move back here to say um no you know we say you were're welcoming neighborhood but we have we have restrictions we have conditions we welcome it as long as you conform to what we say is okay for the neighborhood and that and that's the part I'm not okay with if they were if there were genuine legitimate logical reasons for denial this petition if there was something inherently wrong with what they were trying to do I think saying we cannot make those findings would be okay but what this decision is based on is what may or may not happen and that think is okay thank you Mr Henry um just a second Mr Rey um I it appears to me that there's a that there's not this this needs four votes to to pass there are two options one is to vote it down and want us to allow them to withdraw implications of that for us is that if we vote it down it's it can't come back in it's same form for two years if we allow them to withdraw they would be they could bring it back up at some point but it'd be I don't think that would be a good use of our time or of their time but they could bring back something else that might be um to which the board might be amable I don't know what that is unless you'd be willing to say we're only going to rent to families I mean that might that might change the whole context next year but um I think that is that may not get you the four votes either but um so that that's I think those are the two options I see and instead of going because I I do want I will just um State for the record that I don't that I don't think I can vote for this and still meet the findings I have to make under 10.3 um 10. 380 381 382 and 385 and I don't think it's consistent with 10.30 the special the purpose of the special um the zoning board of appeals the second sentence of that of that Clause but um so I want to give um but I would prefer to give the opportunity for the applicants to withdraw this than to penalize them and to prevent them from um coming back with a different type of um application in the future within the two-ear FR so um that would be my recommendation to the board but I'm willing to listen to other people I suspect that's what you were going to talk about Mr Rey if it is um okay it is yes let's see what I'd like to hear from board members on that as well I almost feel as if that whatever they do it will not satisfy the neighbors you know I that may be the case that may be the case but I I I sense and this is you know not what I'm basing my decision on but I sense from the neighbors that they also might say well if you can rent if you can create a a three and four uh bedroom home that is rented out to families and you could choose to do that I mean the landlord could choose to say I'm going to rent it out to families the landlord could choose to put that in their management plan the landlord could do that if they want to we can't impose that we can't as a board say you have to rent this out to families there might be a different response but that's not the case right now and they they could run out to families they could run out to students and I think you're right Mr Henry I think the concern from the board and concern from the neighbors is about students and I I think they probably my guess is people would be more welcoming if it was if it was families because that does really create a much needed rental housing option for families in this town but that's not what we have before us right now so uh the question for me is do we want to permit them to withdraw it or do we want to vote it down and I I would move I would accept I would entertain a motion that we allow the applicant to withdraw this application and um recognizing that in doing so um it would not work to their advantage to bring back a sim a very similar proposal within the next couple of years rather than U defeating it do I have a second on that motion so moved I I heard Mr Meadows is there discussion about that I know there's the concern that they could form Shop with a different board but that could be that'll be in in a year or two and I'm not sure that it would those condition that the it would change so any discussion Mr slober I I have a question I want to make sure I understand something if they are if we vote it down then they cannot come back for two years is that correct with the same with basically the same proposal same proposal right if they withdraw if I remember from another case they can withdraw with or without prejudice or is that am I not remembering that correctly it's not really a there's not really a a provision to allow them to withdraw with prejudice that is what we do when we vote it down so you can allow them to withdraw or you or you vote it down that's really your two choices if they withdraw when when can the applicant come back with a new or identical proposal for another try they could come back what's a Time factor I don't think there is a Time factor I think they come back at any time but I think they with a with four with a four to one vote I think they're not going to come back with the same proposal and they might but I think it dispensed with but they might come back with another proposal that the board may want to entertain okay thank you Mr shair may I ask a question yes I I do not mean to put the board members on the spot but if Miss Marcy comes back um appreciating that they've done so much work investment to this property if they come back with a management plan that says will only range to families will they get the support of this boort I'll speak for myself I'm much more inclined to allow that I I want to think through I you know the traffic is still an issue I think that's much more likely to be you know you're not going to have 10 cars you're going to have four maybe maybe three I would I'd have to think about that but I'm I am much more inclined to allow that because that's consistent with what other uses in the neighborhood there are um non-owner occupied rental there is some non-owner occupied rental prop property that is f occupied by families and so I and I think that does also speak to one of the needs we have but I I can't speak for the rest of the board members and and maybe they don't want to propose that and I really can't I can't commit but I I'm inclin to be more sympathetic to that because of the less impact on the neighbors than I would see with students it's also less money and so it's there it's it's hard for them to do that um they sunk some money into this and this is not a decision I think any of us take lightly at all Miss bre has her hand up oh M bre go ahead I just wanted to point out my my hand disappears into the sky um I believe that our definition of family includes for unrelated people so you would have to get more specific about exactly what your definition of family is if you were to entertain that kind of a condition you could use the second I think it's the second Clause of that family definition where it talks about um people who are related by marriage bond etc etc etc so there's there is for unrelated I mean for unrelated individuals can be a family a family as we generally think of it either through marriage or through through other kind of common Bond could be a family or could be you know but I would yeah I mean you you're right this breast there's a um um complication in trying to Define what family is it's not common usage Mr Meadows oh you're you're uh muted I think I may have seconded or maybe I didn't depending on whether I was muted or not but I was going to good thank you I was going to because you know on the assumption that they're going to listen to their attorney and Mr REI is very cognizant of what this board might like might be prone to accept and what we won't and based upon that I I was willing to accept and allow them to withdraw because it's better for them to have the ability to do something rather than nothing for a period of time yeah um it's it doesn't it doesn't do away with the safety Factor that's a problem though problem M PR don't you need a request from the applicant to withdraw in order to approve the withdrawal rather than just approving the withdrawal without having that request you know I think you're I think you're right um if I can read body language I think there's a request waiting to make yeah I mean for all the reasons that you mentioned and Mr medows especially thank you very much yeah I mean we've listened um there may be or there might not be right and at this point I just don't know what it looks like we're not going to bring back the same thing because you know Matha is not going to spend the same amount of money to come back through when we know the results so it would have to be some difference where we think it would you know probably talk to the neighbors see if we can get that but at least we're appreciative of the opportunity to have the opportunity to try and and so we would request that withdrawal without prejudice great okay well let's um I think we've had enough discussion about this let's turn to a vote on to allow the application to be withdrawn um this requires four votes the chair votes I um Mr Meadows I Mr White I Mr sler no Mr Henry I I the vote is four to one the motion carries thank you very much thanks for your time yep the application is withdrawn all right um there's no other business before us nor applications the next order of business tonight is public comment on any matter not before the board tonight so um Miss Williams if you would just bring up the participants and see if anybody wishes to speak on any matter accept those things which we' had before us tonight not seeing any hands and we just give everybody a second for them to find the uh raise hand function and they haven't so the next order of business being there no public comments would be to go through um um new business and Miss brup can you uh kind of relay what's going to be our next couple of hearings and I will um also get out my schedule I can talk about the next few meetings but um just cinta or Miss Williams and Mr Mara may have a better hand on um the pulse of what is coming in the future um but the next few meetings will be um August 8th you have emmer development Associates which is Kurt shamway who owns the University Motor Lodge and he'll be coming to you with a request to um approve a social dormatory on under section 9.22 of the zoning bylaw in other words the University Motor Lodge is non-conforming it's a non-conforming use and he would propose to turn it into another non-conforming VI use which would be a social dormitory and at that same meeting um you would have Carolyn Murray attorney Carolyn Murray from KP law coming to talk to you and um give you a a primer on the 40b process which many of you have been through already but um I think it's worthwhile to go through it again so um she'll be spending probably an hour to an hour and a half presenting the 40b comprehensive permit process and then answering questions and then on August 22nd you have Jonathan Murray no relation to Carolyn Murray um an attorney from KP law coming to talk to you about the legal aspects of solar installations you ALS o have um Canton AV the Wilson brothers own a property on Canton Avenue and it's a flag lot and they want to um put a duplex on the flag lot they had received permission to put a single family home there but now they want to put a two family home there non-owned or occupied and then you also have um 161 Chestnut Avenue um which is a new owner that owns this building it is a duplex it is already an existing duplex but I think in the past it's been um an owner occupied duplex and they want to turn it into a non-owner occupied duplex and then on August 29th you have um the first public hearing of the comprehensive permit for the wayfinders project and that is the project that is um the East Street school and the Belchertown Road property and the town has been working with wayfinders to devel V this um affordable housing development it's going to be 78 uh units and you'll be asked to approve that under a comprehensive permit and then the only the next thing we have that I know about is that Jonathan Clay will be coming back uh to talk to about 47 Redgate Lane on October 10th and as I said before um Miss Williams or Mr Mora may have knowledge of other things that are coming along that I don't know about you covered everything um and I know that we continued shsb to September 12th so did we want to try to go over the schedule again for wayfinders um with all the dates or do you want to save that for the public hearing on August 29th you know what I I think what would make sense is to send board members a schedule for them to look at as opposed to us running through it all the time I mean there's in essence what we're thinking about is over the next several months going from two to three meetings a month in order to order to complete the the U 40b application which would just they always just take a lot of time and what we would be doing is having a regular zba meeting for one having a a re one meeting dedicated to wayfinders that's the 40 B and one meeting where we'd split some of we do some of our regular work and we do some of the the 40b stuff so we're trying to I'm trying to manage it as best I can and I don't want to I don't want to overburden people and I want to be able to do the 40b at the same time we have to we have just regular stuff that comes in beyond the 40b so we're looking at um you know perhaps up to three three um meetings a month and I also think at this point it might be you know it gives us an also gives an opportunity to to bring some of the associate members in on some of the um regular business that we have but I think that the 40b should be um determined by the full members of the of the cbaa and not not the associate members so M Williams what I think we should do is send out that schedule that we discussed see if that works for members and have them respond to you about whether they can attend those days and try as opposed to trying to do it here uh in a discussion which is always um sure I can do that let's do it that way and is there but beyond that do we have much in the in the kind of the um in the gateway to come us come to us or is it uh is it kind of slowed down Rob um I don't want to jinx anything but it it's reached a manageable Pace let's just say that well that's that's good news all right thank you you're welcome um any anybody else have any questions or comments for staff for each other all right go ahead Mr Meadows I was just what is a social dormatory it's I'll let Mr MOA answer well that's that's the use classification in our bylaw so you know the the most recently used um or building where that was used is olymp Place uh it was an archipelago project uh they built one uh building there it's apartment style dormatory uh it's uh all the occupants are somehow um affiliated with one of the colleges enrolled in one of the colleges or university uh so it's it's specifically student housing uh in in apartment style in its form and that's that's the proposal that coming to you similar to on a much smaller scale than the the buildings out on Olympia Drive okay thank you okay if there's no other comments for the good of the group I would entertain a motion that we adjourn so moved is there a second second so been moved and seconded that we adjourn the vote occurs on the motion to adjourn the chair votes I Mr White I Meadows hi Mr Henry I Mr sler I we the time is 8:58 2 minutes before 9:00 we got done before the 9:00 hour and we are adjourned thank you all for your work and for your time tonight I appreciate it good night good