##VIDEO ID:p6qO5QDwKKU## the chair notes the chair notes the time is 6:01 I call this meeting of the ammer zoning board of appeals to order my name is Steve judge as zba chair I want to welcome everyone to this meeting we'll begin with a roll call of the zba members Steve judge is present Mr Craig Meadows here Mr everal Henry here Mr David sler here and Mr John Warner here Cor is present also attending the public hearing tonight is Miss Christine breast planning director Rob MOA Building Commissioner and Jinta um Williams excuse me Jinta Williams planner for the town pursuing to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to observe the meeting May do so via Zoom or by telephone no iners and attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access proceedings in real time via technological means the zoning board of appeals is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 48 of the general laws of the Commonwealth with the purpose of promoting health safety convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of amers in accordance with provisions of Massachusetts General Law chapter 48 article 10 special special permit granting authority of the Amorous zoning bylaw this public meeting has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted in mailed to parties of Interest all hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by Town staff and they may be viewed via the town of amers YouTube channel and zba web page the procedure is as follows the petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information after the board has completed its questions the board will seek public input the public speaks with the permission of the chair if a member of the public wishes to speak they should so indicate by using the raised hand function on their screen or by pressing star n on their phone the chair with the assistance of the staff will call upon people wishing to speak when you are recognized provide your name and address to the board for the record all questions and comments must be addressed to the board the board will normally hold public hearings where information about the project input from the public is gathered followed by public meetings for each the public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment if the board feels it has enough information and time it will decide upon the applications tonight each petition is heard by the heard by the board is distinct and evaluated on its own merits and the board is not ruled by precedent statutorily for a public first special permit the board has 90 days from the close of the hearing to file a decision for a variance the board has 100 days from the date of filing to file this decision no decision is final until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members then is filed with the in the town clerk's office once the decision is filed with the town clerk there is a 20-day appeal period for an agreed party to contest the decision with the relevant judicial body and Superior Court after the appeal period the permit must be recorded at the registry of deeds to take effect tonight's agenda consideration of the minutes from June 27th a public meeting on um zba 2006-15 Frank Patel 15 oh we're gonna we're going to do this second we're first going to hear from Carol and Murray uh and we're going to spend about an hour talking about the com 40b process on comprehensive permit training for our staff and for Us's members second zda 20065 Frank Patel 15 Hazel Avenue in accordance with conditions of number six of the fy2 20065 special permit the new owner shall appear before the zba to review and accept the existing management plan the property located at 15 Hazel Avenue map 13d parcel 32 RN neighborhood residence zoning district and this is continued from July 25th 2024 and then a public hearing starting around 7:30 zba FY 202-0324 non-conforming uses 3326 for Fraternity or sority building social dormatory or similar use related to ammer college hamster college or the University of Massachusetts to alter a pre-existing non-conforming use hotel motel to a social dormatory on the premises located at 3:45 North Pleasant Street map 11c partial 2 parcel 250 in the RG General residence zoning districts following that there's a general public comment period on any matter not before the board tonight and um new business or other business not anticipated within the past 48 hours so tonight um before we start I first want to to um acknowledge some u news that I did not receive happily but I am happy for the person that made that news and that's Miss Chris breast um she gave notice that I that she's going going to be um retiring from full-time PR work with us and she's done that for over 20 years uh serving the town particularly the town of the particularly the planning department the planning board as well as the zba and a host of other functions um she's been she really has provided tremendous service to this town and those 20 years you have made in those 20 years you've made quite a Mark here Chris so we'll have more time it's not you're not going to be um taking on other responsibilities before for two months so we'll have a be we'll have the ability to see you and and celebrate you appropriately but I wanted to acknowledge um that what you let us all know and acknowledge the hard work that you've done for so such a long time so thank you thank you Steve I appreciate apprciate that you better um May I mention that um helda greenbound is in the attendees list and she would like to be led in as a panelist if that's appropriate other members other um associate members are here as panelists as well I think we've got do we have any Hilda she isina I think we have everybody that um yep I think we've got got everybody except Mr White who couldn't be here good good all right the first order of business tonight is a consideration to approve the minutes from Thursday July 11th um I was not at this meeting but I have reviewed the minutes they seem to make a lot of sense have other people um reviewed the minutes and do they have any changes or suggestions all right if there's no change changes um to the minutes I would entertain a motion that we approve the minutes for the uh of the meeting of Thursday July 11th 2024 um and that will be with the the uh permanent members of the of the CVA voting on that so four members so so moved so moved second and moved and seconded any discussion if not the chair votes I Mr Meadows I Mr Mr sler hi Mr Henry hi motion is uh the vote is for to nothing the motion carries the minutes are approved uh the next order of business is um a discussion with Carolyn Murray with the KP Law Firm Carolyn um has been tremendous help in the 40b process in the last couple ones we've been through um and I think she's guided us not only guided us but provided a lot of insight and a lot of Staff work really helped us complete the work especially on the U the 32 North 132 Northampton and then the uh the project that we just recently completed so uh Carolyn you're going to go through and talk a little bit about the 40b project which is a process which is really different than our normal special permit process and I think for members who have not been on a comprehensive permit panel before this is going to be um important for you to know um even though I think for this panel it's probably this subject it'll be the full members I think um for the other members this is U who not be will not be serving on this specific panel this will be really helpful um to learn about how this process differs from the uh normal special permit process and it gives you an insight into the normal special permit process uh by contrast so Carol and thank you so much um attorney Murray we really we appreciate your work and we look forward to heing your presentation thank just give us your name and address for the record I forgot to ask say certainly thank thank you Mr chair uh Carolyn Mar from KP law in Boston um serving as your Town Council and um I believe jenta is going to help us with a uh a PowerPoint presentation this evening um I I know that you know it was only about a year or so ago that we did a 40b training I know we've had some uh new members you join the board um but this was designed to be a refresher not necessarily going down um every possible rabbit hole that we could um and I know you've got other things on the agenda tonight Mr chair so I I guess I would say as we go through the slides if there's anything on the particular slides that don't make sense or if I say something that is confusing please feel free to interrupt and clarify but maybe we hold uh broader questions for when the presentation is is over does that seem to make sense that makes sense yeah so clarification questions during the presentation broader questions at the end of the presentation great except I I will then take 10 seconds to say Christine I'll be sad to see you go um and I to the to our alternate members please feel free to participate in this discussion okay so I think Jinta we could sort of uh skip ahead a couple um perfect I mean this is our you know General disclaimer that we've got to be mindful of the fact that everything that you consider as a board you do so in the context of a public hearing so you might have some questions tonight about a particular project um we really shouldn't talk about a specific project we should um limit ourselves to just generalities or hypothe icals um because uh we don't want to impact the outcome of those other public hearings this evening so just as a a a quick introduction to chapter 40b also called the comprehensive thermit statute um as as the chair was saying at the outset this is something unlike anything else that you will handle as a zoning Board member um as its name implies it's a comprehensive permit meaning it's supposed to be one stop and that one stop at the local level is the zoning board of appeals so the zoning board is going to act in place of all other local boards with respect to this comprehensive permit project so you will find yourself in some cases uh weighing in on things that perhaps the planning board did does such as in the form of an anr plan or a subdivision um you may find yourself um handling some matters that uh might be uh unique to or usually handled by just uh the conservation commissions or the Board of Health but the one caveat to that is you don't exercise any particular Authority Under state law so when I say that you might handle some issues uh for the Board of Health for example uh the Board of Health as we know administers Title by peptic systems if an applicant needs a septic system and they have uh they need a permit under Title Five they're still going to go to the Board of Health but if the Board of Health has local regulations pertaining to septic systems that might be more restrictive those local regulations are all going to be something that is considered as part of the board's decision same thing with the Conservation Commission there might be certain aspects of the state Wetlands protection act they will still have to go to the Conservation Commission for but if we have a local byaw that is specific to ammer and wetlands then that's all going to come through uh the zoning board of appeals in this process so you might sometimes find yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone shall we say when it comes to some of these projects um something else that folks uh often ask about is um you know comprehens ens of permits because they include market rate as well as affordable units developers are often uh need to offset their costs of development um and one way that they do that is they ask for greater density so it is not unusual um for them to come in and request a higher density than any bylaw that the town has may allow they can also come on in and ask to loow at um an affordable housing project in a zoning District that wouldn't normally allow for say multif family development so 40b basically takes everything that you understand about zoning and kind of tips it on its head um and allows the zoning board this broad discretion to wave anything that you feel is in the best interest of promoting affordable housing we could go to the next one please your standard when you're uh reviewing and and issuing decisions on comprehensive permits um is this term of art that the regulations use that it's called consistent with local needs so as you know when you're acting on a variance you're always looking at shape soil and topography and a and a hardship here in a 40b you are looking at whether or not um the issuance of the of the permit would be consistent with local needs and that is something specifically defined in the regulations in the statute as meaning something that it um there has to be a local Rule and that local rule could be a bylaw regulation something else that local rule has to be based in public health safety um and somehow or other that local rule either needs to be consistent with the broader goal of chapter 40b which is to generate affordable housing or it is um you know something that you would use perhaps to deny um a comprehensive permit because we feel that there is a local rule that is so important that it outweighs the regional need um for affordable housing um we're going to talk a little bit about safe harbors later because um ammer does enjoy one so I'll I'll go through that another slide or two um one other thing that that the Board needs to keep in mind when it's issuing a decision on a comprehensive permit is we have to make sure that we are applying the rules evenly to subsidized versus non-subsidized projects and what do we mean by subsidized a comprehensive permit or an affordable housing project is a subsidized project that subsidy might come in the form of state aid uh you know financial aid it might be technical aid but that's what we mean by um a subsidized project so we have to make sure that the 40b isn't being treated any differently from say a pure market rate development that would come in um for you know similar scale and size so some of the safe harbors um and what does Safe harbor mean uh safe Harbor is one of the tools available to the town under 40b where a town can say you know put up their hand and literally say stop to more affordable housing if they so choose if we have achieved one of the various types of uh safe harbors that the statute recognizes we've all heard the 10% rule um ammer has exceeded its 10% so it is in a safe harbor situation there's also a 1.5% of the town's General land area safe harbor if we had 1.5% of our total land area devoted to affordable housing we'd have a safe harbor there are also some safe harbors available if um we have recently entertained what they consider to be a large scale project or if there had been a related application on that had that dealt with the same the same parcel of land and had a residential component to it um usually what this means is if you had a subdivision that was denied and then the developer said well you know what um I'm going to come back in and I'm going to do a 40b and I'm going to do it at a higher density than that subdivision was the developer has to wait 12 months from the denial of that subdivision before they could file uh for a comprehensive permit so it's a one-year Safe Harbor also um if the town has a certified affordable housing production plan that housing production plan usually has certain goals and depending upon how many housing units we might add in a given uh period of time the town could also achieve either a one-year or a two-year Safe Harbor in that time period if we are going to assert a Safe Harbor um or what does it mean to assert a safe harbor as they said the town could if it chose deny a comprehensive permit if we assert a safe Harper we don't have to deny it but we have the ability to deny it and if we were to deny it the applicant has no recourse meaning they have no Avenue of appeal um just because we are in a safe harbor we can still goad head and we can still proceed and hear uh the comprehensive permit and let's suppose we decide to approve it with conditions the applicant still has no right to appeal any of those conditions um as a result of us asserting the Safe Harbor and there is a a time period Associated if we could go to the next slide just please thank you there is um a a yeah a sensitivity to the time with respect to when you assert Safe Harbor it's something that we we have to assert right out of the gate so the minute we receive um a comprehensive permit application we have to open the public hearing within 30 days of receipt of that application we then have 15 days to notify the applicant in writing if we are going to assert A Safe Harbor um if we do decide to assert the Safe Harbor um the that decision on suppose the applicant were to disagree with us for example the applicant could appeal that to um the housing appeals committee and if the housing appeals committee agrees with the developer that um you know we are not in a safe harbor we would actually have like an interlocutory hearing um that would put the comprehensive permit time periods completely on hold while that interlocutory appeal um is heard and if at the end of it the housing appeals committee decides that we have not proven that we're in a safe harbor then the application comes right back to the zba and you pick up as though nothing had ever happened you pick up with whatever time periods are remaining for completion of the public he hearing on the application itself now we often hear something called a friendly 40b and ammer that is certainly no stranger to Friendly 4bs a friendly 40b is basically um um a comprehensive permit application that is filed under What's called the local Initiative Program or you might hear people refer to lip applications and basically what it means is that before a developer ever um even starts the process of seeking State permission um to proceed with a with a an affordable housing project he'll come to the town first and ask the town to partner with them and the ask the town to actually sign off on the application it's usually an opportunity for the town to sort of express some of its concerns about the impacts of the development it's also an opportunity to negotiate perhaps some mitigation um or set some ground rules about the say maybe the number of units or whether we want them to be rental units or we want them to be ownership um but once the town signs off on the application it goes through the exact same process that any 40b does it goes into what we call the subsidizing agency which is usually a state agency that's offering some form of financial or technical support to the developer they're going to do a a site analysis and eventually they're going to issue something that's called a project eligibility letter I think we have some slides coming up on that there we go so the project eligibility letter is literally a developer's ticket to proceed to the zoning board of appeals so the developer starts with the subsidizing agency at the state submits all of their um their financial information they submit their concept plan um there's a comment period for the town to weigh in on that as again in terms of any concerns or impacts but once the agency decides that they think that this is a fundable project they issue a project eligibility letter which then allows the developer to come and file their application with the Zone board of appeals there's a couple of criteria that they that the developer has to establish in order to get their product eligibility letter one is that they have to either be a public agency they or a nonprofit or they have to be a limited dividend organization or they have to indicate that they are willing to create a limited dividend organization before any project um would be allowed to be constructed they also have to prove that it's fundable um and that's again something that the subsidizing agency um analyzes and they have to have control of the site where they plan on developing the project control of the site doesn't mean they have to own it it could be something that's subject to a purchase and sale agreement it could be a long-term lease but those three criteria that if they're satisfied those are things that are entirely within uh the determination of the subsidizing agency and they are not appealable meaning sometimes I hear when project eligibility letter is issued um you know that in in the comprehensive permit application is filed a zoning board will sometimes question whether or not the applicant satisfies these criteria um those are things that are not within your purview so um it's not a basis for us to not consider you know once that project eligibility letter issues we accept that as um basically primate fasia evidence that the um the applicant has qualified um I think we just covered the contents on this slide so if we could skip ahead to the next please great um so once the app the project eligibility letter is filed the applicant will file their application with the zoning board of appeals now normally the zoning board has um some advanced notice that a 40b is coming you know it doesn't just show up out of the blue one Monday morning and take us all by surprise we've had some notice and comment periods prior to that it's always a good time for the zoning board to look at their comprehensive permit regulations if they have any if you don't have any it's always a good time to consider adopting some um because once the application is filed the applicant is subject to whatever rules are in place on the date of that application so if we were planning on updating our our permit uh regulations for the purposes of let's say you know suppose we still had an outdated filing fee of you know $20 or something like that we've been talking about increasing it for years if we haven't actually done that by the time the application is filed we're locked in with that $20 application fee the application fee has got to be paid in full at the time of the application um in order to proceed so when the application comes in one of the things that is uh going to be near and dear to the zoning board's Hearts is what's called a waiver list the applicant is required to submit a waiver list um and it might be revised from time to time because as the project um as the proponents receive comments and feedback from the board and other departments there might be certain waivers that are added or waivers that are discovered might not be necessary um but the waiver list is is essentially like the list of variances that they're asking for from the board meaning all of the various types of of provisions of your local bylaws or regulations that the applicant is asking for permission to not have to comply with um and this could be everything from procedural aspects um such as we won't submit them to site plan review by the planning board because everything comes to the zba or it could even be you know dimensional waivers um you know they need to exceed your height limitation for example in order to get the requisite number of units in um all of that will have to be voted on by the board as part of its decision um okay so then once we get underway uh with public hearing the process follows the same um notices as you you're accustomed to under chapter 48 in terms of who gets notified and how long you have to advertise but what is different is the timetable it's supposed to be a more aggressive timetable so ordinarily um an application would come into the zoning board of appeals and you'd have 65 days before you'd have to open the public hearing for 40b you have to open that public hearing within 30 days um you also have to close the public hearing within 180 days of when you open it so it's always very important I know I always try to keep track of uh keep a running uh tally of of the number of meetings because you know these types these hearings often go on or span several months and that six months can go by very quick quickly and take you by surprise so it's always important to keep your eye on what is the 180 day maximum so that um we can be sure to get an extension from the applicant as needed um and I always suggest to boards that you know applicants are always very quick to ask us for a continuance when their engineer is not available or the plans aren't quite ready yet and I always suggest that grant them those extensions but when granting them an a continuance on their end I want the same amount of time tacked on to the zba's timetable on the 180 Day end so that if if they delay things for 60 days we're going to get 60 more days added on for the time for us to act and I and usually developers are pretty uh pretty good at complying with that they understand that why does this matter the most important thing is obviously we want avoid constructive approval meaning if we don't act in time um and the clock runs out that comprehensive permit is deemed approved and we have no recourse other than to fight the constructive approval also something totally um foreign to zoning boards of appeals is that a comprehensive permit decision including votes on waivers only requires a majority vote of of the board as opposed to your usual super majority um the public hearing once you've actually closed the public hearing the board has 40 days to deliberate um but you have to actually render or take a vote within 40 days of closing the hearing again you could extend that deadline by agreement with the applicant once you've actually voted on your decision you have 14 days to file your written decision with the Town Clerk and a copy of the decision has to go into the executive office of Housing and liable communities formerly known as the Department of Housing and Community Development um we can go to the next one please so one thing that's important to consider during the public hearing process is the use of outside Consultants um there's a statute chapter 44 section 53 G that authorizes the zoning board to hire third-party consultants for any kind of technical review that the board feels they need to help help them analyze and um review the project so we often see the zoning board um hiring for example a traffic peer review consultant perhaps storm water um might just be civil engineering sometimes there's even like a land landcaping or design architect that is engaged and those people those peer reviewers those are your representatives to provide feedback to the board and I find that they often not only just identify potential issues or identify um some ways in which the applicant perhaps um has not complied with a local requirement but they also help us formulate conditions of approval that can be important um the applicant has to pay for that consultant entirely uh so that's the beauty of it or one of the one of the few benefits I guess that a municipality gets under the 40b statute um the applicant doesn't really have any right to challenge who we select as a peer review consultant with two exceptions if if we choose a peerreview consultant who has done prior work for the app app or has done prior work on the very project that is before you um that person is disqual that firm is disqualified as having a conflict of interests or if the applicant claims that our peerreview consultant doesn't have the necessary qualifications to review whatever it is they're being asked to review so for example you might have a peerreview consultant like an engineering firm that you work with but they might not have an in-house traffic engineer so you might actually need um to reach out to someone else to bring in uh the traffic peer review to make sure that they're qualified to do so so as I said earlier you know the standard here is whether or not um the approval of an affordable housing project is consistent with local needs and there's always the balancing test whether that whether the affordable housing need outweighs any sort of requirement under a local bylaw um you know I don't think this is surprising to anyone uh but there is a very strong presumption in favor of housing particularly affordable housing in across the Commonwealth as we're certainly seeing from uh last week's legislation and um you know that comes through with appeals that folks have um with appeals committee that um I I don't ever want to put rose-colored glasses on it it the victories for municipalities in these cases um are few and far between there are a couple that have happened but I I'm not kidding when I say there only been really a couple by and large um if if a local board denies a comprehensive permit they are overturned by the housing appeals Committee in the end so we always want to be in a position of or I recommend if we actually approve a comprehensive permit you approve it with conditions and you get to shape the project a little bit if we flat out deny a project and there's an appeal and we ultimately lose on appeal the housing appeals committee is not going to be quick to include some of the protections that the zoning board would have asked for in a decision there certainly isn't going to be any mitigation so sometimes there is a strategy to approving that decision rather than a a denial some of the reasons why you could deny um or you could find a local rule could um overcome the need for regional affordable housing um it could be things such as there's a health and safety issue um there's a lack of open space and this is a multif family development where we expect to get families and we expect that they're going to be able or or should be able to enjoy open space and recreational areas things of that nature as I said earlier you've got to apply the requirements equally was subsidized versus an un unsubsidized project um and obviously where that you're allowed to literally wave all of your zoning requirements if uh if that's what was presented to you um we can't deny a project because they don't conform to a local bylaw unless of course we have proven that that local bylaw satisfies a local need um that outweighs the need for for affordable housing think I already com commented on that for about the peer review conditions um I I spoke a little bit about this you know conditions how important those can be in um a decision but there's also something unique to a 40b about what's called economic conditions meaning if a condition imposed by the zoning board of appeals um in the opinion of the developer would render the project to be economically impractical or not feasible the applicant can challenge the condition so you might have approved comprehensive permit but they can still appeal that decision based on one of the conditions rendering the project uneconomic um and there's a whole separate Financial uh analysis that would have to go into proving that it's uneconomic to them um and we would likewise have to get our own uh experts to testify to that um I mentioned that the applicant can appeal um decisions to the housing appeals committee and when we say other agreed persons meaning abutters abutters can appeal to Superior Court or to the land court so it's a slightly different avenue of appeal comprehensive permit decisions can be modified there's a specific process in the regulations as to how to modify them the board has 20 days from receipt of a modification request to meet and determine whether or not it's a substantial modification or an insubstantial modification if we find it's a substantial modification we have to notify the developer and we have to schedule public hearing within 30 days following the same notice requirements um as the full-blown comprehensive perment requires if it's an insubstantial modification um the board can approve it at a public meeting um or the board could take no action on it and and um it's going to be considered automatically incorporated into the board's decision I always prefer that the board act and affirmatively approve these things um so that we have that paper trail on modifications but there are instances where a board has um chosen not to act and the modification takes effect anyway um and these terms substantial and insubstantial modification there is some guidance in the regulations as to what normally is substantial versus insubstantial every now and then we get something that is a little bit different and it requires a little bit of um thought and discussion with the zoning board of appeals as to whether or not you really feel it is a a substantial modification um either way you're going to issue um a written decision and it gets recorded and um you know becomes part of the comprehensive permit decision itself that is it so I'm happy and entertain any questions you might have so miss Murray um if we since we are a Safe Harbor community do those when when do those appeals apply to us so I when when does the appeal to the housing I forget the name of it the housing appeals committee I guess it is when do those appeals apply to us as even if we assert um safe higher so we have if we right at the very beginning you know within 15 days of when we open the public hearing um we should certainly assert Safe Harbor and send a notice to the developer that Safe Harbor notification can say one of two things it can say we are in a Safe Harbor and based on that Safe Harbor we hereby deny your comprehensive permit and we are done or we can do what we did with the last um applicant that came before us where we said we are in a safe harbor but we are still willing to entertain this particular project but the applicant is now put on notice that if we approve this application with conditions or if we ultimately hear it and decide we're going to deny it that the the applicant cannot appeal um that determination So within you we've got to notify the developer within 15 days of of our assertion of the Safe Harbor the developer then has an equal amount of time to decide whether or not they're going to challenge that Safe Harbor and first it would have to to go a notice that would have to go into the executive office of Housing and livable communities and the executive office of housing livable communities would write back saying whether or not they agreed with ammer or not so for example we all know your your subsidized housing inventory exceeds 10% but let's suppose we had a developer out there who thought no no no um you've actually lost some units or maybe because of addition market rate units or because of um you know a change in the census if they were to challenge our 10% it would then be up to housing the housing and livable communities to verify that we are at or exceed 10% or to agree with the developer and say oh you're right they have slipped below 10% um if we disagreed with that determination then we would appeal that right then and there so all of this would happen at the outset of the of the of considering the project and it could and I've had this happen in my experience um I've had a safe harbor asserted I've had a safe harbor challenged and appealed and it puts the comprehensive permit on hold for like two years and then we you know eventually come back to the zoning board of appeals and uh folks are a little bit surprised that you know it's been so long what took so long well uh that was just it has to wind its way through the appeal process okay Mr Varner I see you have your hand up oh you're muted uh how's that I'm on uh I have a couple questions that are sort of interrelated and Center on the word affordability um or affordable uh I was curious about what percentage of amest housing is currently considered affordable and and what is what is Affordable in a market that's as volatile and as hot as ammer right now and what's the difference between affordable and market rate in some place like ammer uh another uh question I had related to affordable housing is who determines the the need for more in a given town because I know there are there are some people who always want more affordable housing and again affordable is like I'm not sure exactly what that means but uh and um yeah I was just curious about who who decides the percent of affordable housing what that percentage is right now in ammer and uh and what exactly is Affordable so uh to answer your question uh federal government Housing and Urban Development actually breaks Massachusetts down into various um regions uh based on housing and determines what is like the area median income for the region that you're located in affordable right now at least means that there's there's either low or moderate income so moderate income would be anyone who's at or below 80% of the area median income for the area that HUD says ammer is in um there's deeper affordability for lower levels you know some it can go down to 30 folks who earn 30% of the area median income so ammer for example is not being compared to uh greater Boston for example um there's also you know for for affordability purposes anything basically that comes up to 80% Ami is essentially considered affordable sometimes we also hear some things uh some terms like Workforce housing or we hear um percentages like 120% of the area median income those right now are not considered affordable housing that is above the 80% threshold so that's um still important housing that other communities are taking on elsewhere but it's not currently considered to be affordable as in terms of how many units we have to have well state law has said every Community should have 10% of its housing stock um as affordable so your housing stock numbers are going to change uh with every development that comes online um it's also subject to every 10 years the federal census might also change those numbers but you can go online to the exec I office of Housing and Comm and livable communities website and you can review the list of what they call as the subsidize housing inventory they break down all 351 cities and towns in Massachusetts and they will identify how many housing units amoris has in total and how many of those are actually affordable and they'll even then do the math for you as to whether or not you are you are at or exceed or maybe below the 10% one other thing in terms of answering your question what is affordable affordable has to also mean that the property is subject to an affordable housing deed restriction so whether it's a a rental property or whether it is a homeownership property the developer and then this has to pass on to any of his successors and assigns the developer has to enter into a couple of different types of agreements one is called a regulatory agreement the regulatory agreement is generated by the state subsidizing agency meaning the The Entity that's going to either provide the financing or maybe some technical assistance to the developer to make this project go forward that regulatory agreement has a number of components to it but one of which is it requires that at least 25% of the units in a proposed development so if we have a 100 dwelling units that are proposed at least 25 of those would have to be set aside as affordable it would require the developer to um engage in what's called an affirmative Fair marketing plan which requires a certain amount of Outreach to people where you might be more likely to reach folks who are at low or moderate income levels uh you have to conduct a lottery to select them uh for these units and once they're in the units um those units are supposed to remain affordable in perpetuity so it may be for example in a a rental property um somebody originally comes in um as qualifying you know they have to prove that they are Income qualified and the income levels are also going to be adjusted based on their household size you know so a single mother with three children is going to have a different income level than say a single person um the single the person who may qualify for an affordable unit let's say over the years um that person uh starts earning more and more money uh children grow up children move out of the house the household size shrinks it may very well be that at some point we hope that that income eligible person is now exceeding the income levels that doesn't mean we kick that person out of their house or out of their apartment it just means that that unit might now become a market rate unit and the next unit that be that opens up would then be designated as an affordable unit and we would go through the lottery process of trying to find someone who's income eligible and do all of that it's a little bit different with home ownership because once we with with a home ownership we still we still do a lottery we still find someone who is income qualified um and if folks then want to resell their property um there is usually built into the regulatory agreement there's usually um what they call like a a maximum resale factor that um you know the person who owns the house who makes some improvements and maintenance to the house you do get to build up some equity in the house but you still need to resell that house and this goes for condos as well you'd still need to resell that unit to an eligible purchas like an income eligible purchaser upon resale if we can't find an eligible purchaser the town of amest has a right of first refusal if the town of ammer says we don't want it that person is allowed to then sell it at Market rate but ammer is going to get a share of what we call the windfall which is the difference and value between what they would have been allowed to to resell the house for based on that resale Factor versus what the market rate bears at the time of the sale and that's a lot of information right there so I'm gonna I'm gonna pause uh attorney Murray maybe I can help I think one of the questions John had was how do you determine what's affordable for an individual so we know that it's 80% of the median income in the area and then is it a certain portion of does that unit have to be available at a rent that is equivalent to a certain portion of that person's income it does so it's it's adjusted for household size as well so the income scale is going to change based on how many people are considered in that household and um 30% is generally the threshold they look at um in terms of you know rent Insurance utilities Etc and that's okay I have a just quick followup on that um here in ammer you know more than half the town population is student uh students are not well healed they're all assumingly most of them would be would qualify for affordable housing because their incomes are next to nothing and Amis doesn't do anything to track where students are living right now so how do we deal with the affordable housing issue uh and our student housing uh demand at the same time I don't understand how we sort out uh affordable meaning non-student and affordable meaning student if we don't track where students are or um somehow restrict students getting into affordable housing sure um I I will be honest and say I've never actually been on this side of the process of qualifying people you know the um there is an application process so you're right there are probably students and amoris right now that would qualify in terms of just their income um for affordable housing they have to go through the application process and be a approved as an eligible purchaser um I don't know if there is some type of um you know some students I was one of those who you know had Parents helping with um with with some of my you know expenses when I was in school um I don't know how that quite factors in or if it does factor into that application process because I've just I've never been on you know that's usually something only the developer uh gets involved in but I I think it's entirely possible that um students could possibly qualify for the affordable housing as well I think Miss brep has um some comments thank you y so I wish that Mr Malloy were here tonight because he's our housing expert but what I understand is that students particularly undergraduate students are not eligible for affordable housing so you know if there's an undergraduate student who's part of a family and the family is eligible for affordable housing then of course that student could live with his family but students who would apply to be the lesies is that the right word Lor is the person who leases and leie is the person who lives there but anyway so the leie um cannot really be an undergraduate student by himself or with another group of undergraduate students and qualify for affordable housing so that's one thing then there were some questions that Mr Verner asked before which I thought I could help to answer um one of them was um what is the percentage of amorist housing that is currently considered affordable and that is the number that is um counted on what we call the subsidized housing inventory that the state keeps track of and our current number the last time I checked was 11.76 so 11.76 of our housing is a percent of dwelling units is considered affordable and I think we've got about 9,000 housing units alog together it's probably more now but anyway that's the number then in terms of what are the rough um incomes of people who might qualify for affordable housing I believe and and Miss Murray might correct me in this but I believe that for a family of four in the Springfield area metropolitan area the current um uh allowance for a family of four would be $94,000 so you could have a family of four qualifying for affordable housing and they could make as much as $94,000 so that gives you a kind of a ballpark um another thing I wanted to say is that we have affordable housing being built in ammer by two different mechanisms one mechanism is the mechanism that Miss Murray is helping us with which is when a an applicant comes in with a 40b project and part of the development is um going to be affordable housing in the case of the uh affordable housing project that's coming along soon I think there's very little market rate housing I think it's six units out of 78 or something like that but generally speaking um project would be more like North square at the Mill District where you have 130 units and 20% of those units are affordable um so the U so that's one mechanism that we use to get affordable housing here but the other mechanism we have is we have an inclusionary zoning bylaw and the inclusionary zoning bylaw requires that any development not counting subdivisions but any you know big apartment building or big mixed use building that comes into ammer that's being proposed has to have um 12% of its units affordable so these big buildings that you see going up like 11 East Pleasant Street has 90 units altoe but they're providing 11 affordable units as part of that project so some of our affordable units are coming through a private development mechanism that is inclusionary zoning and the others of our affordable units are coming through this comprehensive permit process and the last thing I wanted to say is I've asked um the town manager um to give us Authority to or permission to have Miss Murray accompany us through this 40b process that we are going to be launching into and he has said yes to that so um Miss Murray was with us for the project up in north amorist and that worked out really well and um so we're very happy that she is going to accompany us through this project as well so thank you that's all I wanted to say uh Mr alfeld yeah I just I had a question about um process and interaction with other uh Boards of the town so I think you miss miss muray you mentioned at the beginning that um the zba kind of manages the whole um application application process for the project so can you just run through how suppose the site had um Wetlands or something like that so there was a Conservation Commission sort of issue how how does the zba interact on that or or does the Conservation Commission get involved at all and if they [Music] do uh I guess I'm wondering about a situation where for whatever reasons they are slow to slow to act and we We R into timing problem so do you have any comments on that sure I do um so at the very outset when the application comes in um the regulations require wire that we have seven days to distribute a copy of that application to all local boards departments to get their feedback um I kind of chuckle at that being in the regulations because I think that that's just a good practice how do you know what your police chief your fire chief your conservation agent would say about a project unless you actually did some Outreach to them so that's one thing that has to be done um but as far as the process so you act in place of any local board exercising any kind of local jurisdiction so it's a little bit um a little um complicated when it comes to the board of health or the Conservation Commission because they are sometimes exercising Authority Under state law in which case that is exclusively reserved to those other boards but if it is a local ammer regulation whether it has to do with Title 5 or it has to do with Wetlands or maybe we have a greater setback area than the wetlands protection act has then that's going to be dealt with through the zoning board of appeals now that doesn't stop the zoning board and I would actually encourage the zoning board to uh reach out to the Conservation Commission and staff to help us formulate you know what what are our concerns what would be some standard conditions that if this was exclusively before the Conservation Commission what might be some conditions that the Conservation Commission would want to impose so we can make sure we bring those into our decision now sometimes a developer has to go to the Conservation Commission for matters under the state Wetlands protection act and sometimes they also have to come before the zoning board of appeals um there's no perfect process in terms of which one should come first um and sometimes they proceed on Parallel tracks uh the project that we most recently completed there for Valley CDC they were before the Conservation Commission at the same time that they were before uh the Zoning Board of Appeals timing did work out for us that we had the benefit of the conservation commission's action so that the zoning board of appeals could that could help inform their decision or maybe even formulate some um some conditions sometimes the developer just puts just takes one board at a time so a developer might come to the zoning board of appeals first thinking if I don't get approval here what difference does it make what the con a commission would have done right so the zoning board sometimes is in a position of well we don't know what the Conservation Commission would or would not do um but we've got to again reach out to them and incorporate as much as we possibly can um in terms of conditions into the decision itself but then there's always some what I consider to be boilerplate language of the decision which is we always put in a catchall provision that a developer required to obtain all federal state and local approvals and comply with all other local bylaws or regulations that are not specifically waved by this decision that's kind of a lovely broad way of saying and when you go back to the Conservation Commission and they tell you what you need to do you gotta you gotta comply with their their decision as well or if uh you know you've got to go to the the Board of Health for a septic system you're going to have to comply with whatever the Board of Health tells you to do as well I'll just add to that that you know this is 40b gives zba a lot of authority that it would normally have and weact for the town on everything except those state and federal mandates that we can't overturn or we can't we can't vary from but we need to be humble too and we have to recognize that we don't have all the all the knowledge of the police and fire department all the knowledge of the Conservation Commission all the knowledge of the Board of Health and so there's an active process of seeking their opinion and their input uh when we get as we make as we go through this process to make our decision so we do we consult with them and um we go out of our way to make sure that we do that well that's a lot of information and it's and I don't know that's a lot of information in a short amount of time um is there any are there any other questions on 40b generally um not regarding the specific one we have coming up but regarding 40b generally for from the members yeah yeah yeah thank you for sharing that um uh training it was very helpful so after everything happens and uh they uh how do we monitor them is there a specific scale that we monitor them with or are there do we have any assistance that whether they're following up or doing what we have set up set them up for thanks sure so um when I mentioned earlier that there's a regular agreement with the subsidizing agency that has um various requirements that the developer has to comply with one of those is um it also requires that the developer um contract with and designate what they call a monitoring agent and the monitoring agent is looking to make sure that the developer is if there's supposed to be 25 units that are affordable that um they are in fact living up to that commitment we typically also have um a local regulatory agreement it's sort of a a belt and suspenders approach where we say if for some reason the state regulatory agreement ever goes away or terminates for some reason the town's regulatory agreement is then going to take effect and that the towns regulatory agreement mirrors the States agreement in a number of ways except that the town is now the entity that steps in to uh make sure that the the developer continues to comply by the rules then there's also your comprehensive permit decision itself you know that decision um gives the board the ability to seek to enforce any provision of the decision so it could be that the developer doesn't comply with a zoning requirement or or suddenly um there's some you know additional development or structures that that are put on the site that um you know maybe exceed the lot coverage that we granted them we could always take zoning enforcement action based on our decision um but we could also seek to enforce uh the affordability if our regulatory agreement took effect okay thank you great all right um well we'll be working closely with you miss Murray as we proceed on this 40b as we did the last time your help is really invaluable and uh thank you so much and I looking forward to it so have a good rest of the night thank you take care uh that completes our first order of business uh the next order of business under our um public meeting is consideration of a management plan for the property located at 15 Hazel Avenue and Miss Williams can you bring um Mr Patel on as a participant there we go Mr Patel can you just give us your name and address for the record please yes uh first of all thank you everyone for your time and service um my first name is Frank and my last name is Patel and I live in Hadley my address is to Megan way and Hadley and I'm here today to request for the special permit to allow me to use the property 15 Hazel Avenue as a multi-unit um property which has three um three residential units inside thank you um just for the benefit of board members we um we considered this two weeks ago we asked for this is a situation where the property has changed hands under that under the previous special permit this property when it changes hands the new owners have to come and present a management plan to the board the board has to review that management plan and approve it or make changes with it um for the um for the property to be used in the use in this case rental property not owner occupant rental property um and so Mr Patel we had some questions about the management plan Mr Patel came back with an with an amended management plan that we've received and I think you received the latest uh amended management plan this afternoon um and so now our job today is to consider whether we want to approve the management plan the amended management plan that Mr Patel has sent us this afternoon so on this panel we have myself Mr Meadows Mr slober and Mr Henry Mr barer you weren't on the other panel so you don't vote on this one okay um so the four of the four members who were at on the last panel are on this panel so Mr Patel um the last time there were two I had two questions the first was the old management plan um had the property management as the next door neighbor that's not you you clarified in this management plan that you are the you and your wife are the property managers so that's fine um the second one was we t talked about the provision that we have been routinely adding to non-owner occupied multif family units um and that is the uh you'll see this on the um man the amended management plan as the last part of the amended management plan Amherst residential registration that he has included that in the management plan as well so I think Mr Patel in my opinion has U complied with our requ and has a property um a property management plan that I find satisfactory and I open it up for any other comments or questions from board members Mr Patel is there anything you'd like to say um no I again as I said you know uh I I take the win right now if I were you this is the first time I'm actually my second time I'm attending a ammer Zone meeting I've never done this before but I heard the previous uh 1 hour talk and there was a lot of information to learn but um anyways uh right now I don't have any questions and again I just uh request if you give me approval to continue use that and I will and I'm really proud to be uh you know one of the property owners in the town of emmer and uh again I love this town and uh I would do a great job owning and managing this property thank you all right um I think the order of business for us to do is to U uh consider a motion to approve the management plan the amended management plan that we received this afternoon from Mr Patel and I would I would entertain such a motion so move to Mr chair thank you Mr Henry is there a second second Mr sler seconds is there any discussion about the motion or about the management plan if there's no discussion the vote occurs on the motion to approve the ma the amended management plan the chair votes I Mr Henry I Mr sler I Mr Meadows I the vote is four to nothing um the motion carries the management plan is approved and Mr Patel uh congratulations thank you everyone again for your for the approval you bet thank you for your work and your cooperation thank you thank you no problem um we're coming up on 717 we have um another project when we have a public hearing to start on the University Lodge uh application this is nor this is about the time we normally take a fem minute break so what I'm going to suggest is that we take our 7:30 break at 7:20 and we all come back here at 7:25 how's that excellenta perfect okay we'll see you in five [Music] minutes for for [Music] you oh I I got I've got an hour to go y yep I always take a five minute break e all [Music] for [Music] [Music] for for War for [Music] for for for Mr judge do you mind if I make a funny remark no I'd enjoy it funny remark has said I've seen Mr REI every day this week two site visits a planning board meeting and now a zba meeting so I just wanted to acknowledge that I'll have to stop in tomorrow for some reason we'll just give it a second here till we get all the members back online we go um all right we have a full panel we and we have um the applicant representative so on this the next order of business is a public hearing on zba FY 202-3995 two non conforming uses and 3326 fraternity or sorority building social dormatory or similar use related to Amis College Hampshire college or the University of Massachusetts to alter a pre-existing non-conforming use hotel motel to a social dormatory on the premises located at 345 North Pleasant Street map 11c parcel 250 in the RG General residence zoning districts um we have have received before us um submissions of a a Za special perit application a management plan a complaint response plan requests for certified list of abutters and a Redevelopment narrative all from the applicant as well as additional proposed management plans and a blank lease uh the staff has provided a project application report the latest version of which is dated August 5th 2024 we did have a site visit on Tuesday which several members of the um the board attended um we observed the property walked both to the the U it has two entrances on two different Pleasant streets um and we walked the parking lots of both we observed the um I guess it would be the side which are going to be the studio apartments we actually went into one of the um units that going to be a studio apartment we looked at at the unit and the proposed work to be done we observed the parking areas that were going to be um resurfaced and where there could be parking located um we went down through the down to the front of the building on on North Pleasant Street we uh observed a two family we entered a two a two room apartment um that was going to be modified from the existing office we had discussions about um lighting parking and landscape and additional information needed for those um we had questions about um the size of the units and how many people could what the square footage requirements would be for participants um we had requirements about questions about ADA spaces um I'm going through my notes number of units um we had a general conversation about the uh the nature we also had conversation about the nature of the tenants versus the current tenants that are there and how the change in use from a Mot to a social dormatory we change the the residence of the property and we ask questions about the term of the lease I think that covers the big questions that we asked at the at the site visit David or um bre or Miss Williams did we have any other questions that we had asked that need to be noted for the record I don't I don't think so I think that covers it quite well there may have been couple of other comments but nothing significant I think that's those are the areas of questions that we asked yes I agree okay great uh and I see Mr re's here um you're representing the applicant will Mr shamway also be here or you are you doing the presentation I'm I'm going to do the presentation I know I can ask Kurt questions if something comes up that I don't know the answer to all right so um feel free to start Mr just give us your name y great sure uh for the record Tom Rey attorney with bacon Wilson out of Amherst uh six Southeast Street here on behalf of uh amst development Associates 345 North Pleasant Street in amst requesting as you mentioned Mr chair a special permit um and it's really a finding under 9.22 so uh I'm I'm going to show my screen in a minute just to orient everyone to where this property is in relation to downtown UMass and and just the neighborhood at large for a little bit of background um it's located in the RG zoning District in 1965 the use as a lodge Was An approved use and so a special permit was issued then to allow uh the lodge to exist fast forward I think it was 1970 Thank you very very much Miss Williams for looking that up and and finding that out in your development application report uh the the RG zoning District at that time prohibited lodges from existing and so at that time the use became pre-existing non-conforming it has been a lodge use since 1965 and at this time what we're looking to do is to take uh a lawfully pre-existing non-conforming use and looking to under 9.22 change it to another non-conforming use which is the social dormatory um and what we need is a finding that it's not significantly different in character or its effect on the neighborhood and so you know to to do that analysis I think you have to take what exists and then talk about what's being proposed and so at the site visit Mr Slover asked a very good question essentially I'll summarize what's the difference and you know I I I think that the applicant is very excited to go from a a trans transient oriented development in use which has an average night stay of less than two nights it has an average of 1.9 U occupants per room and according to Mr shamway over 9,000 occupants in the course of a year to go to go from that to you know within 21 units to 16 units uh 17 beds with hopefully year leases for all of the occupants and so it it gives much it's a much less intensive use uh than what's happening now it gives more predictability and consistency it allows uh screening to happen which does not happen with the lodge tenants it's just you know people book through whatever booking mechanism that they use and they don't feel that that ownership and people may be going there for a weekend party at UMass and then coming back and not respecting the property uh to folks who are going to be living here for the duration and so I think from a from a management standpoint from a neighborhood standpoint um it's going to be less intensive and and and better i' say qualitatively than what's happening there now so I think just to keep that in mind as we're talking about is it going to be substantially different in character effect if if anything I might say it it it it will be for the better right and that's not part of the analysis but it's not going to be worse than what it is and it's it's going to be better than what exists there currently um what I will do is I'll share my screen just to orient folks to we are and so it is the yellow highlighted piece I I'll zoom in in a moment you you've got UMass here football stadium over here center of town where Amity and Main meet so the town hall is right here at the bottom of the screen and so you know the nice part about this is the location and it's a sizable lot especially for this area you're a little over one acre uh you've got entrances one off East Pleasant Street and then one off North Pleasant Street as well and it's existed in this same configuration you know I could I could go back and maybe I'll do just that right here to show you historically you know so this is an ortho from 1967 and you're seeing essentially the same uh layout entrance parking area Etc that you have now which is um you know going to be part of the presentation is the the minimal nature of change to the exterior of the site and U for all intents and purposes the minimum minimal interior structural changes uh to the interior of the site so this is this is the site and now I'll go through and show some of the I'll show the site plan and so what you see here um let me see if I have the arrow yeah North is going to be to the left and so from that last photo we were looking at from this side so East Pleasant Street is at the top of the page North Pleasant is at the bottom of the page you've got University Lodge the the length of it the upper area here um these are where the studios are going to be the lower area here those are where the one-bedrooms are going to be and then this is where that two bedroom is going to be there are 26 parking spaces um two uh Ada spaces they're labeled here one here and one here um the what is not labeled here and we can certainly do it either as a condition of approval prior to receipt of a certificate of occupancy or is a condition of approval to come back you know once the the uh plan is done and we have asked George cook from Randy iser's office Harold Elon and Associates to to provide that information but what you don't see is this labeled as grass this labeled as grass this labeled as grass same thing here you don't see I think there is a birch tree here there might be another birch tree here um and there's some other vegetation and trees along here there is a light located here and then there's another light located here um what we also don't show are the under this it's porch i' call it a Breezeway outside of these units are uh downcast lights that you would have essentially in a porch so we're not showing those we can show them again either through either mechanism um you know if you want to approve it tonight which we obviously love uh as a condition of approval if you're going to make us come back then obviously we'll come back with that uh in hand you've got Planters um at least one located in this area and what uh the applicant is looking to do is really just resurface the parking area if you've been up there as as many of you had and I'll I'll acknowledge Mr Varner was there with me this morning we met at 8 o'clock so he was able to walk around we were also able to get into one of the studio units up here so he was able to get a sense of that that size um but if you've been up there it's kind of broken up Asphalt and so that would all be resurfaced as as part of this project and what I'll do is I will show the exterior elevations and then we can talk about floor plans and I'll talk a little bit about management uh what you see is what you get uh no real changes to the exterior I think what they're going to do or what they are going to do is paint the exterior and paint the doors they're keeping everything the same color um if you notice there were large signs at the property University Lodge uh if this is approved they're not going to need such large identifying signs because uh folks who will be occupying it will live there and so they're not going to have to try to attract folks who are only going there for a weekend or need a place to stay and realize there's a lodge this is going to be more of a a residence um and so we would we would propose to come back in the future with whatever the signs will look like uh if we're improved and so you've got again west elevation so this is going to be from North Pleasant Street that larger parking lot this is the north elevation so you can't really see this this is there's a retaining wall essentially if if our back was against it this is what you would see you've got the South elevation and then you've got the East Elevation and this is from up top where the the studios are I and no structural changes just the a coat of white paint and then the doors are going to be painted as well [Music] show right I'm going to go to the one in studios to show that all right so here you have your typical single unit Studios uh these are the ones that you're entering from that East Pleasant Street side this is essentially this unit is what we had visited you come in you've got bathroom you've got closet and then you've got um the range the sink I think these might be flip-flopped in the unit that we were in uh some additional countertop space that uh air conditioning unit and then the double windows right here and I think I'm going to bleed into man a little bit um when I talked to Mr shamway uh we'd be amenable to restricting occupancy of one in two sorry St that Studios and one-bedroom units to no more than two unrelated individuals we thought that that was you know a fair way to do it what we would want to carve out though is families because we just we don't want to get into a situation where there's you know I know this is a social dormatory but if you know a parent has matriculated and this is where they're residing and they've got a young child uh frankly I just don't know enough about the law to say we could say no my sense is you can't discriminate to say no the family can't live here so while we're okay with the limitation of no more than two unrelated occupants in the studios and the ones uh we would just like a carve off for for families just to avoid any potential discrimination so um that's the uh Studio side by side and then the one bedroom these are the ones that you access from North Pleasant Street it's essentially taking what you have here and combining them and so you've got a a door into the living area you've got the kitchen area here uh you've got a water heater tucked away here but you've got your electric range with hood your refrigerator and your sink and you go through this door which they've cut in essentially separating the previous Lodge unit and you've got your bedroom with your full bath over here uh the doors for aesthetic Reasons from the exterior these doors are both remaining um you know practically speaking I don't know how much this one will be used but I think for the Aesthetics then uh the applicant has decided to leave both doors so th that's the studios in the one-bedrooms and I'll show you the two bedroom and then I'll talk a little bit more about management and so there's only uh one two-bedroom this is um the the nub that comes off the balance of the building where the office uh was and so you've got it's a little bit more spacious obviously you got your kitchen living area you've got you know a bedroom with your closets you've got another bedroom with its closet and then one bathroom and so in total you're getting 16 units um with 17 beds so it's 10 Studios five one-bedrooms and one two bedroom uh they all have one bathroom and so you're really going from 21 units 21 beds transient living two 16 units 17 beds much more I'd say stable and consistent uh occupancy um as far as management goes you Kurt's been around his family and he they they manage 150 units in the area um we've got a complaint response plan that we provided Sher Willie Works in his office and so she's really that first line of defense if something were to happen uh as far as parking goes there are 26 spaces as I mentioned 16 units what we would do is allocate one space per unit uh and then there are 10 additional spaces notably two of those are uh Ada spaces what we would ask for is to allow discretion to the management company to be able to use those spaces how they best see fit right sometimes that would be a certain number for guests uh sometimes it would be for additional vehicles for the unit occupants uh so we would ask for that discretion um otherwise is you know as far as high level goes not a tremendous amount of ch changes and so I mean with that we're happy to answer any questions that you have about site interior uh management Etc Great thank you Mr Rey I got a couple questions just to start um so on the complaint response form Sher Willie is the 247365 contact UM with all the units he operates I'm assuming that the phone number on that that complaint response form is a phone number that's answered 247365 I believe so right I mean so you would want to I just want to make sure that there's an alternative because Sher willly is going to be gone at some point and that you know she's going to be not answering the phone um so what's we can get you a second name we can get you a second name for that if that's what you're looking for what I'm looking for is making sure that you know 247 365 there's somebody that can be contacted for the complaint so that would be good that's great um secondly in in your management plan you mentioned or I think it was the narrative you mentioned that there is additional oversight provided by UMass for social dormitories and I don't know what they what they provide what's required what they require or how they interact with homeowners or landlord excuse me yeah and so this is I'm I'm probably going to toss it over to you Mr Morris so I'm going to give you a heads up before I do that but this is my first social dormatory that I've permitted but I know that archipelago has I think permited two in the fraternity residence district one of the requirements as I understand it for social dormatory is that the occupant is at least one occupant is matriculated at an institution of higher education and so uh to me that is oversight through student life because if something were to happen in that uh occupant were no longer longer uh matriculated uh then they wouldn't be able to have housing here either and so somewhat necessarily there is going to be a link between the landowner Lor and the institution of higher education to make sure that the occupants are behaving are matriculated and that there aren't any issues so it gives that additional you know we're in a typical apartment if somebody acts up and and fails out of school there's no Nexus between their occupancy and their matriculation status here it's a little bit different but but maybe Mr Moore you can correct me no I don't have anything to add to that great hi yeah ruina um since you're not on on the panel we're gonna have you you you can ask you can make comments during the the comment period but okay during the hearing it's just the it's just the the members seated for this panel but feel free to to ask questions during the comment period um so Mr REI I'm I'm as confused as you said you were about it so give me the short answer again on what the University's goal is just if a student is is kicked out he can't be in there anymore or what is that the deal simply correct that's the extent of the oversight correct okay all right but it's not like they have um a contract with a student that they don't have that they don't have parties or that they have to get a permission for or anything like that okay all right good all right um I had a couple other questions of the lighting for the parking lot I noticed the existing lighting looked like it was damaged um on the on North Pleasant Street I don't know if it's downcast and um um dark sky compliant but so is that lighting meant to light the parking lot for safety and and same thing with the lighting on the East Pleasant Street side is that meant for for um for safety and how does does it go on on its own is it always on is it motion activator how does that work yeah I so yes they're for safety the one on North Pleasant Street uh was damaged by the tree that fell it essentially knocked it down so it's not facing onto the parking lot uh I don't believe they're dark sky compliant because I think they're somewhat Antiquated um and I I want to say it's they almost look like they were uh Western Mass Electric poles that put the the lights on those poles um there's a new pole I think going in on the East Pleasant Street side that looks much more substantial than the existing pole um and I think they do go on at uh uh at nighttime so it's either by timer or um I think I forget what it's called photo photos sensitive yeah yeah when it goes on once it turns to I know Mr Meadows you'll you'll correct me but it's the one that turns on once it gets dark enough outside photo cell photo cell so there you go all right um and what about the lighting under the covered walkways the breezeways is that always on or again that's going to be motion activated or what I don't believe those are motion activated I think those are timers but let me check with Kurt and I'll let you know okay so that's so I mean those are some of the we have I have some lighting questions it's also a light that we did not that was not on the plan that is on the retaining wall on the North side on the lower Edge there's a a large non dark sky compliant light that currently exists which would cast light up as well as down and I don't know if trespass into the neighboring property but if you look on the retaining wall North Side Lower Level there's another light there um so I think I think those we should have answers to that and on a plan of what you want to do how they are going to be dark sky compliant and that would be um information I'm interested in seeing and so just um because I know where we're going with this Mr chair we've been in front of each other enough um do you because I so what that means uh is that we're probably coming back and so the question not necessarily the board may not agree with my my opion so but but go ahead okay so the the question then is uh is the expectation from the board for the applicant to replace the existing lights with dark sky compliant lighting I think especially the damaged one he's going to have to do it anyway yep I think that would be the expectation of the board okay I think the one on the wall it's not a lot to it's not a lot to replace that and it's probably ancient um I would expect that to be um probably his Med its useful life and it would be any replacment of Lights has to be dark sky compliant I would like to see that especially because it would it would cast light up and I don't know about the neighbors so that I would like that to be and the one on the East Pleasant Street um I think it's if it's going to be replaced it has to be dark sky compliant but I have no idea how how it washes the neighborhood or washes Beyond itself 1965 there wasn't as much concern about this there is now we've got a new use a new special permit um so I'd like to have your opinion on that and see what you guys think about on that one and then in terms of the just in terms of the the walkway lights just it's a matter of sort of um quality of life if they're on by dark all night long those are the windows into the units I suspect safety can be achieved by having motion activated but it's not on all the time that would be my preference but certainly I think they are dark SK dark sky compliant already so I don't know if you have if you have to do that because of our uh to per to be um compliant with our rules and rs in the committee okay so that's that's where I am on that and then um well I can I'll let other people I've asked enough questions for now I'll let some other people ask questions and I have a couple more so Mr Varner your hand was up first oh you're you're muted Mr Varner sorry um thanks first to attorney Rey for meeting me this morning and walking me through again taking his time to do that was kind I had one question when we met this morning about the placement of waste containers I think in the text of The Proposal that was mentioned of an enclosed area for the waste containers it doesn't appear on any of the drawings and I know that the turn from uh Pleasant Street up into the parking lot is rather tight for one of these trucks with a lift on it so I assume it's going to be on the North Pleasant side but again there's no designation of where that's going to go or how it's going to abut the neighboring property or the building itself um and I'd like to see that uh spelled out more clearly the other thing that I'm a little concerned about is the uh the stipulation that that the renters have to be matriculated students um I'm just I don't know how that's going to work out in terms of people who for instance uh halfway into the the fall term decide no I can't really do school right now I'm going to drop out or um you know do they actually get evicted or and who's responsible for doing that what's the mechanism or if somebody uh decides oh you know I think I'll sign up for a course at UMass and you know that way I can sign I can get a a lease at this at the lodge um I I don't know if there's going to be an active contact back and forth between the Lor and the University or college to monitor who's a student and who's not going through the year uh and what happens if somebody uh lapses in their student U identification uh you know what do they get evicted do they stay around for the term of the lease um I don't know how that works and Mr Mr before you answer um and just to piggyback off that as well I also had similar concerns because um there is a lease um which each person is required to sign so I mean is this is the leaste condition precedent they have to be in school for the lease to be valid um I didn't see any language to that extent in the lease because you know if there's lease that's it they have whether they're in school or not the lease trumps them not be in school so how does that work yeah and so I guess one of the questions is going to be for Mr Mo and if there is any grace period uh between the loss of matriculation in one of the institutions of higher education and the requirement that uh a tenant be evicted uh or could you just let the natural term of the lease run out and then not renew it if they weren't matriculated and frankly I just don't know the answer it's a to me it's a zoning enforcement question because doesn't also the management company the property owner have a vested interests that people don't break the lease certainly Mr Mora yeah so we have a couple properties that have that condition of the permit um that you're talking about now the bylaw doesn't specifically require it it doesn't have to become a a condition of this permit it doesn't have to be that every occupant is uh enrolled in in some sort of uh in the University or college uh so that's really up to you on how you want to place that condition the planning board in the larger properties has included a condition like that and I think that's you know noted in your project application report as an option uh what would happen is the the lease would expire on its natural terms and then it's up to the manager uh the property manager to uh ensure that you know according to either the conditions of the permit or whatever their uh rental policies are uh they're confirming that for the renewal of the lease so we would not expect eviction in the middle of a lease term in that situation thank you your question Mr Barner okay um Mr Meadows um I have a variety of questions uh I should State I think this is a great idea but um the entrance to the property on East Pleasant Street typically in the winter that is either uh intentionally closed off or they don't plow it um and therefore it's impossible never mind to bring a vehicle up there you can't even walk up there because it's too icy and and difficult is that something that the fire department uh needs to have as access to the building is that something that is intended to be kept open um you know what the intentions are yeah I mean the intent is to close it during the winter because it is so Ste uh and and I don't want to say potentially hazardous but that's why that it's not touched to push folks over to the North Pleasant Street side the parking lot is and so I think there'd still be access you know North Pleasant and around the building up to that East Pleasant Street parking lot but just not that access directly on to East Pleasant Street thank you um do you know what the HVAC system is going to be for each of these apartments uh I know that the Studios have the air conditioners um sticking out of and maybe what I'll do is I will try to find a good picture here let me share my screen a little bit here it's probably a good one just if you can see because I think this will do a couple of things um right where this mouse is see if I can I won't let let me zoom in this is the uh light that uh the chairman was talking about Mr judge this is that light that you were you know I don't know that it's dark sky compliant it's also certainly Antiquated you've got the uh uh air conditioners up here in each of these units and those are brand new and then I will check with Kurt on the lower units and just the location of those um uh HVAC and the heating I would assume then is electric strip or what is it know why don't I let me um Kurt I'm gonna bring you in uh Jinta could you let uh Kurt shway in I think it'd probably be instead of me going back and forth with him it's probably best because he knows his property better than better than I I'll stop sharing um I think if the person is JC shamway they are continually declining to become a panelist I'm tried to add him several times so talk spots up Kurt spot up you don't have to show yourself Kurt but okay he said try again okay okay he's I guess he's accepted this time Mr sham uh can you give us your name and address for the record and you're muted right now good evening I thought that was one of my popup screens that was telling me my computer's about to shut off sorry everybody uh my name is Kurt Shumway and my uh uh my home address you're looking for 309 East Pleasant just up the street from the site got it thank you I can turn the video on here I'm not intending not to do that I think there were a couple of questions regarding the the HVAC systems and the heating sure they're the same units as they are upstairs they're all brand new through the uh essentially through window type units and they're in every room two of them in the one bedrooms and one of them in each of the in each of the studios Heating and the heating is the baseboard as you mentioned yeah it's electric race board and and does each apartment have its own meter or is it central it is being metered uh separately okay I may have a suggestion for you but we'll take that offline okay at some point um does this the second another question does this fall under the requirement the state requirement for EV charging stations now with the transition if you're asking me I would uh go to Rob I'm not aware of it I think the question is for Rob yes yeah go ahead Mr Mara there there is no requirement for EV charging stations for this project [Music] um is it probably would be beneficial to have a couple there um and there's certainly money available for them from the state so it's a suggestion and uh I'm assuming all the lighting would end up being led but uh the last question if this is open to I assume open to UMass students Hampshire college students uh ammer college students in does each of the schools have to keep track of the the students who are living there is that how it's done with this type of facility if if you're asking me I can say no I don't I don't uh uh we don't get involved with what the universities or colleges do as far as keeping track of their students is it part of a social dormatory typically or or is this is all new so yeah I mean me me as well but as a manager we don't I mean we we did there's a few comments I could have commented on earlier we we do manage very very closely uh where our tenants are uh where they are to the point of if they're still in school or not um but Rob's comment about I think legally it would be pretty tough to terminate a lease and you know how that goes in town anyhow but if if it were a requirement then we would expect that the lease just to run out and then um if depending on the your requirements either um not allow them to renew the lease or whatever be appropriate there but we do have very close Rel you know I I tell my tenants I hope we don't get to know you too well because we do um they're probably trouble um we've had a pretty good luck with that Rob Department can speak to that and uh the police uh Department also knows us very well for not having to come to our properties is very often there could be some other questions there the the dumpster questions we typically have that in the on the East Pleasant side what I'll say typically historically as a lodge and also I'll speak to the downlighting that you mentioned earlier and I can talk to you about sort of the pros and cons of any of the decisions but um the the dumpster typically has been on the East Pleasant side uh in the corner uh kind of tucked away um if I were to answer your question where it was going to be as of this meeting I would say it would be there um I think though that I'm not sure if I were a tenant I'd want to have that out front of my door there so there's going to be some rethinking a little bit about whether that's the best place for it um of course you have neighbors you have quality of life and smell and all those types of things uh but that's where I would say it was going to be as of this conversation um there are also some questions about the down lighting out in front of the doors about the timers or uh sensors um we tend to keep them on um and maybe and have them turn off at a certain period two or three in the morning um there's pros and cons to that if they're light sensored you're going to have people coming in and out and um they're constantly going to be going on and off and that could be a distraction typically what happens is they'll be on more than they're off for safety reasons and that people will just close their Shades to keep uh the lighting from coming into the units we would prefer them to be on more than off for safety reasons and they're not that bright that they're sort of a safety they can they can give you a safe walkway into your entrance but they're not so glaring that they're going to go through you know uh distract and be a problem for any neighbors of course it's been there for years we've never had any problems um so we found keeping them light keeping them on is better so Mr sham that's those then those walkway lights are timed is that what you're talking I I will tell you that I'm not 100% whether they're timed or they're censored um I would say to you though that our our our better our best practices will be to try to keep them on and keep them somewhat on a dimmed uh in a dimmed fashion so they're not terribly bright okay yeah I'm not really worried about uh trespass another property with those I was I was just considered considering the safety good go ahead I I didn't mean to yeah there was just a lot of conversation I guess I was being invited in I kept clicking no but um I'm happy to comment further about some of the other questions that Tom maybe uh was about the how about the big lights the parking lot lights yeah well you talk to about that yeah on the East Pleasant side we find that the liting there is is has been and continues to be satisfactory has not we've had any complaints um it would be my hope and expectation just not to to touch that uh the one that you mentioned earlier there's a lot of trees that are down in that area I'm going to be doing some heavy uh uh trimming and uh that light will be repaired and of course the goal is to create a safety situation and not be uh a problem for the Neighbors that's what everybody wants that's what you would want that's what I would want that's what the neighbors would want so um I'm not familiar with the terminology you call it a dark sky I guess that's that's that's the one if if it needs to be changed out we'll change it out yeah okay I'm I'm sure Tom can give you more detail on that but the dark sky compliant is a is a is a lighting term of art um and you can find those and I I think any new lights should be dark sky compliant yeah I mean common sense I think it's a smart thing yeah and the other one is that that light on the retaining wall that probably should be changed out to be dark sky compliant as well yeah that's fine I honestly I don't even know if it works okay all right let's um go ahead Mr sham is anything else you want to say before we go to other questions from board members I'll I'm just here to be available to uh answer your questions great Mr sler uh okay thank you Mr chair I have a number of questions that are related to the number of people on the site and some ambiguity or conflicts in numbers in the lease agreement uh first of all I would say it's it's it's clear to me that that this proposal will uh make the site um less impactful there will be less activity at certain times the stability of long-term leases is a positive thing so I I inherently think that there's positive aspects of this I wanted to say something nice at the beginning okay so there you uh there are some Provisions in the lease that are at odds with some of the representations of what will be on the site for instance Mr REI said that there would be a limit of two people in the studios and the one bedrooms which means that there could be over 30 people on this site so I'm not sure I'm I'm I'll bring up a number of points rather than ask for a response one at a time uh Clause number seven in the lease says that the it's limited to one car per person but if there's more than one person allowed to live in the unit then that could be two cars what if a couple lives in one unit is that two cars but the lease says per person not per unit uh section 4J allows up to five people in the unit at any time no more than three overnight guests so that would be four it's an awfully tight unit to have four people there overnight but nevertheless the lease does permit it so three overnight guests at least from my reading is the lesie and three overnight guests and what if they all got there with cars there's the possibility of an enormous influx of cars onto this site at various times depending on how you read the lease and what's Limited uh the your application says social dormatory is not substantially different in character U from what has been there but there is also some potential that a concern that I have about college students many of whom may know each other or become friendly if four friends rent four units this sounds like a party th this is sort of a built-in block party if this is a lot of college students who know each other and they're all present and they're all from a similar background and a similar economic class perhaps and I'm just concerned about the fact that there is no on-site management and no supervision so it's it's the potential numbers that are permitted in the lease potential activity in nice weather do you have any thoughts on any of this I'm not I'm not trying to get into a debate I'm just trying to find out what you think will really what's going to protect this from any of this happening I'm happy to speak unless Tom you want no K Kirk go ahead I think my only comment would be to Mr sler that um the lease is evolving and I think just as you know the conversation with Kurt about the occupancy limit and the discussions with the zoning board appeals certainly influence that discussion so that it's not apparent in the lease that you have in front of you is not surprising it's uh we will provide a final lease based upon on what is the outcome of these discussions so now I think Kurt will probably talk about overall management I one more question that I just popped into my mind because of something that Mr judge said uh at the site inspection we we asked what the size of these units are the studio units and Mr judge said at when we were standing in the unit that he was under the impression but wasn't certain that that uh there's a minimum of 150 square ft per person or some rule like that uh for occupancy so it it's even possible but I don't know the answer and I guess I'm asking if you know the answer it may not be legal for two people to be living in one of these permanently I'm not talking about an overnight guest I don't know how big the unit is but it didn't look very large looked to me not much over 200 square feet I don't know if you know not not I'll ask Mr Mo again I I think I can I think I can um TR bring some light onto that question in Con in conversation with the staff today I think the there's a requirement for at least 150 square ft for an individual and for each additional individual it's 100 more square feet so for two people you'd need 250 square feet I think that's right if I understand it and I don't know what it is for three or four if it's another 100 square feet for each person but I think that's and that's is that a State Building Code or is that a Amorous building code Mr judge you're correct that's the state sanitary code and it's 150 and then 100 for each additional occupant okay thank you so uh Mr sler I can comment on uh most of your other questions really are more of a a man you know management question and it's good that I'm here because I can tell you that yes I'm glad that Tom talked to the Le lease that it's evolving this is the the first of this type that we've had and it's a very simple uh modification to uh uh sort of give the tenant the parameters of what are expectations are to be good neighbors and um I've always told my tenants that at my age if you have three or four people over that's a gathering anything over that then it's a party and I don't want parties so uh they kind of get the flavor of of what we how we Define that um you're you're not incorrect as far as potentially having people who know one another next door that that happens everywhere um that's not necessarily a bad thing um like any any uh tenant or apartment situation that does create a scenario that they might want to have some party activities that comes up that that comes back to me and my my my group that we manage them quite carefully I live just up the road I go by there many many times I'm a very active uh driving around while managing properties to make sure things are going well um again our management uh reputation I think is uh is one that speaks for itself as far as containing that um the number of Maximum tenants hypothetically you're probably right we can contain that in the lease um not any different than a full occupancy weekend at at the hotel uh that we would have that and have that many cars as well it's unlikely that we would have that many we prefer not to have that many we expect to have uh most of the studios we expect to be one one person and uh I would venture to guess most of the one-bedrooms will be you know maybe half of them will be uh single occupants uh so that's sort of the reality of the demand and uh so we don't we I don't expect that to be an issue the parking uh even though the the lease speaks as you had mentioned we will modify it but we control that uh we will basically say one parking space per unit and any cars that are parked there we give them parking stickers and every night in all of my apartment uh buildings we have it uh we have a tow truck that goes through and if you do not have a parking sticker you get towed and if people have guests we give them guest passes so we we manage that we feel we manage that quite well um and once again if you go through our parking lots downtown where everybody's looking for for parking our parking lots are not full uh with the exception of our tenants on busy weekends because people will get towed I'm not a very a popular guy for that but uh that's what we do and my tenants appreciate that so we control the parking very tightly we control occupancy very tightly we control partying very tightly uh I have sherry she lives down the road from me I live there I have two other people in the office I have three maintenance full-time on call uh we are local and we're always around and if I didn't catch all your questions shoot shoot me off the rest of them um no you you addressed most of them most of it I would I would um it's the math the number of units times the number of possible tenants that Mr REI said were permitted and the and visitors and cars these things I think there's the if you if you use the biggest numbers there's a a lot of activity and a lot of people and if this is controlled I think it should be controlled a bit more specifically from the lease but if the lease is evolving I don't have an issue with it I believe in evolution we again I think practically speaking it's highly unlikely that the maximum will will occur uh I'm not sure how I would want to regulate that from the zoning perspective but I I'm pretty confident in our history and and knowledge and understanding and ability to control all this stuff um that the the the amount of complaints that'll be generated from here will be far fewer than what they were as a lodging facility okay thank you you know it's Mr SL I did the same math you did and looked at the lease and you look at five overnight guests per unit they come up with 85 guests at a time if you look at um or no not overnight that's guests and you look at three overnight Nights by 17 units that's 51 it's clear that the lease doesn't address this property and has to be modified and that's the reason we asked for a lease to be for us to look at a lease so do exactly what we're just doing right here and so this I think is productive for everybody um but that's that's a really good question also I am I would like to see U the schematic for because you're going to keep the same wall so so I'd like to see a schematic that gives me dimensions for Studios one bedroom and the two-bedroom so I can judge it I mean I don't think you ought to have a lease that allows two people to live in a 150q foot unit right if the you know I I think I want to make sure that you're that we aren't approving a um occupancy uh density that exceeds the sanitary code so that's so I would guess that that first unit is not 250 square feet I guess it's a sing I think it's a you'd have to seems to me it ought to be those Studios or one person I don't know about the about the one bedrooms I just don't know what the size and square footage is but you can't violate the sanitary code we'll get you that I I think they are above I think they're I mean I did some rough calculations and I think it it comes out more than 250 but we'll certainly the stud and I just used the scale of whatever Grant I'm I'm an attorney right so I did it let let's let's have a real professional look at it somebody really bright once told me don't do math on TV yeah it's a good idea that we get it done totally exactly and provided to us okay sure yep because I'm I I just follow my own rule there but I at least it worked it out ahead of time yes one one of the reasons that I like numers so much is that they're not debatable if the if the unit is over 250 square feet that's one thing if it's 220 square feet which is but what I think it is just from looking at it then it's under and then one of the other questions and I don't know the answer and I'm not asking it really now unless somebody knows the answer if the minimum for two people is 250 square fet does that mean two people in permanent long-term residence does it mean two people uh for up to but not more than five days I don't know how some of these rules are written but once you know objectively with a tape measure which I'll be happy to lend to Mr REI because even though he's a lawyer I'm sure he can use a tape measure you can figure it out it's there no mystery with this it's just a matter of getting the number and then finding out how the rule is applied so I don't know what even a if it's over 250 what does that tell you or and if it's under 250 can someone have a visitor for a long weekend but they can't change their address I don't know what the answers are but I think they need to be clarified and Mathematics is our friend understood we'll take care of it um I had just another quick question um I think in the site visit it was mentioned that new doors are going to be provided and new windows is that correct or I think it said same doors and then I think BJ said new windows Kurt so I think well we we put all new we put a uh all new windows on the interior of the studios Okay um so uh they're all new there there's only new doors uh new doors going in between the two uh in when we're creating the two rooms to be one bedrooms so there's five new do all the other doors are remaining as is and just painted up and pred up all right and the other thing that I think we should all um take note of is that this building will be for the first time um have have a sprinkler system it'll be sprinkled and I think that's a great Improvement in the property if in terms of safety of the tenants and everything else um that's a great Improvement in the property and I want to I'm I'm glad it's being done I don't think you could do it safely without that so that's a really good Improvement um could I rewind there is one new door being put in that I didn't mention that would be in that uh two-bedroom unit I don't want to forget that all right all right there's a new door that will be cutting in there that so um I don't think we I don't want to forget that all right thank you any other questions for the app chair judge I just wanted to um hopefully shed some light on I think it was Mr slober question or your question so uh dwelling units are 150 square fet for one person um if it's a sleeping room which is different from a dwelling unit it can be 70 square feet for the first occupant and then 50 square ft for the additional person but that's a sleeping room so if it's 250 square ft you're still taking into a count at 120 squ F feet you're folding that in to the 250 so I hope that he answers the question but um if Mr MOA wants to jump in um I think I think his question was was more about when does that visitor be count towards the the number of people in the unit and I think it's when they sign the lease I I don't think it's well I'm I'm speculating I don't think it's if they're staying there for a couple of days but I think it's they have to be per uh you know on the lease take residence I think Mr Warren tell me if I'm wrong I might very well be yeah I mean the the way the code reads it says living or sleeping in the unit you know is is an occupant and what uh Miss Williams just WR off are the numbers for occupants per occupant so you know I mean we are we are trying in situations where there's a question about the number of people in a unit we're looking for the hazard we're looking for you know the harm that could occur by having too many individuals in a unit uh I I think for an overnight stay occasionally in a unit like this we're not going to be too concerned you know you got really easy access to grade a building with a sprinkler system and a fire alarm that's typically not going to be something we're you know trying to you know regulate so strictly but but I think the what needs to be clear in the conditions of the permit based on the square footage is what are the number of occupants that should be uh you know signing that lease and offered the unit for rent uh and you know Case by case we would we would deal with you know the issues that would come up by having guests in the unit and that's helpful thank you and the last question I Mr shamway is since you've own this property for a while and in the winter it's really tough to get up that East Pleasant Drive in fact it's closed I from what I've heard has the fire department taken a look at has there been any need for the fire department to come there can they get up can they get around the can they get a truck around from the North Pleasant entrance down to around to the back do they need to I guess number one number two and if they need to can they get around and and uh have a truck that is on site for a fire yeah that's that's that's that's actually a good question we've again we've never had a first of all the snow we do that intentionally um if I mean it's a kind of obvious common sense that uh half the time you can't get up it depending on but it's the going down and sliding into the street that is the issue right so we do that by Design um as far as the fire trucks are concerned I I do know we have the big garbage trucks can make it around so I'm sort of making that assumption that they have been in and around their we've been inspected you know forever and uh either they don't need to because they have equipment they can get to the other side or it gets by there without any problem so we've we've met all the inspections and of course now the sprinkler system is even better um but I I I'm only assuming this because I I can't say that I've been on site during an inspection but I know that everything has been fine Mr M do we need to ask the fire department for an opinion or is it already established I I actually spoke about this project with assistant uh Chief Jeff Olstead yesterday um there are no concerns that he raised about access uh maneuverability to the site um we were talking about the fire alarm so he has very you know he has very technical questions about the oper ation and notification of the fire alarm that you know we're discussing but uh you know he he did not have uh any concerns about this project and I you know spoke to him about it going in front of the board this evening and asked him if he had anything he'd like me to share and he didn't that's well that's good enough for me then good all right if there any other questions before we move to the public comment and um I know Miss ruana I you had your hand up you wanted to say something and I call upon you first okay thank you so much it was wonderful uh listening to the project I really excited about that uh the fact that I know that area is very uh integral in that um Place uh there's a lot of vegetation also from the perspective of environment are there any trees going to be replaced because there was a mention of clearing up the trees or something so I'm more interested in uh the environment if that can be clarified they removing it replacing it or so on thank you okay um M Williams If We have anybody else with their hand up I don't see anybody I don't see any hands oh wait no there was one that's been up yeah there we go yes hold on Mr or Miss TOA com m one second there they go okay all right please give us your name and address for the record oh here um I live my name is Tova Kemar and I live on 138 East Pleasant Street which is couple of houses away from the project um my biggest concern is traffic the way uh towards East plant Street uh the plan that was presented uh was lack of the new roundabout that has been there for couple of years already and um didn't show uh how the circulation of the traffic is is going and um the the road that is going to East Pleasant Street from the project is H extremely steep I would wonder what if anybody measured the slope if the transportation department can take a look and and and because I walk there every day I I see it during all the seasons and um people when there is a lot of traffic now near the roundabout uh coming from both directions North Pleasant and East Pleasant and um people take shortcut if they see that it's too much traffic in one of the the major arteries so um and then almost across of it there is Bank of America road that uh people exit really in a rough way to they cut to the roundabout so it can be a big mess especially because it's so steep I don't know the angle seriously and uh I don't think it's legal that it's a short road and even it's a driveway but still I don't think it should be maybe for emergency or maybe they should change the slope uh and one more thing all those guests that you mentioned before um it will be other guests and they will park on the side of of the road on East Pleasant and North Pleasant uh when they go to the bars uh with their friends and then they go to sleep with them uh because they don't want to walk after they drink and um I have my own experience which is uh my next door neighbor um it's a company that renting to students and they constantly have people that just come park the cars because we're near downtown they go together to the bars they they block Chestnut and East Pleasant intersection and and and uh the pavement and the bike lane and they they move the cars whenever they want nobody's doing nothing the police nobody there is no inspection so I think think uh it should be examined um with the traffic with the transportation department because it it it it will affect the the round the the location of the roundabout I think it was purposely they didn't show that it's next to the roundabout they they showed an old map the university lodg with an old map so and um I think that's it okay well thank you m Miss CLA camars right thank you very much thank you um if there no other public comments this is an opportunity for the uh applicant to respond to the public comment if you wish so maybe Kurt I'm going to talk first just about the traffic I'm going show an updated map and then I'll ask you to talk about the vegetation uh to address rosana's comment so what I was showing as a map was just the map from the Amis GIS system uh obviously I shouldn't say obviously I'll say no absolutely no intent not to show a roundabout for any nefarious reasons it just wasn't on the ammer map so this is where the roundabout is here is the University Lodge here is the access on to East Pleasant Street and then here is the access onto North Pleasant Street um you know I think what I would say is you have to consider the use that is existing which is the lodge which is transient and you have folks who have potentially never been to this area before maybe visiting friends may just want to stay a night or a weekend at the lodge on the one hand and so they may not know traffic patterns walking patterns uh roadways what this is turning into is this is going to be people's homes and they're going to know the time of the day to leave they're going to understand when school buses go by they're going to know when there's a a large contingent of folks walking down the street or when the traffic is bad because they're trying to get the class so it's just it's just uh different in in kind not even degree um and so I think with that uh comes should be should come a level of comfort as far as traffic patterns traffic circulation and if anything you probably have less occupants uh and more stable occupants in this new uh use than you do in the existing use and Kurt I'll turn over to you for the vegetation discussion yeah um the the the one the one thing that was mentioned that is would be terrific concern of Vine is you know using it as a cut through um I'm not sure I would have the answer as to how to control that but I'm I'm sure it's been happening in the past we have other properties that people cut through cut cut through Howard Johnson to get to Staples and and we don't like that but we're not we haven't figured out how to control that um I'm not sure I have that control other than ultimately if it was so bad we could we could actually shut this side down uh as of now I don't think that's a a necessary uh result but as far as the the the trees uh my goal is to keep it quite private um keeping it um well-maintained manicured there's some trees right now got blown down we we've uh uh we've got a tree guy ready to go in I think uh Monday or Tuesday of next week wanted to kind of get through this meeting first and um just do some trimming but the the the goal would to keep it you know any dangerous trees that could be falling one way or the other we'd like to to clean those up and keep it very private and uh as quaint if we can use that word as a as a site as possible um the other the other uh you know you'll see some by the uh the connecting driveway there's some beds there some flower beds and some pretty bad concrete that needs to be that'll be all fixed up and repaired we'll be putting in some flowers and plantings there and things like that we want to just kind of keep it nice and quaint a little new englandyoutube without question it's not even I mean it's it's light years better than what it was as a use before um we had Craigs doors there for two to three years and our neighbors said there were fewer complaints with them than when we had the lodge which was just an amazing learning experience for me and I'm sure many of you in the town who who who watched and participated in that process um but we managed pretty carefully we're not on site uh 24/7 the way they were um but we don't have the same kind of occupant challenges either so we're we're expecting it to be and hoping it to be very quiet it's not going to be without an occasional issue I'm not going to suggest that but uh we feel pretty good that we can control things as far as the size of the units would go um I would love to try to walk away tonight knowing that we have uh an approval and be willing to accommodate the square footage I I've never heard of that requirement before so it's not it's kind of new to me and I'm the one that should be knowing the size of those units and I don't so I'm uh sorry for that um I don't have a problem if the square footage mandates that we can only have one person um I I just feel that that's going to be the demand for the units because they're just not huge so if the math says and if we could put that into some sort of an approval if the math says it's only one person I can live with that I'm pretty confident the downstairs units would be two and as Tom mentioned earlier I kind of talked with him a little bit I saidif I have if there's a couple there and they all of a sudden end up and they have a third person child uh I think there's a lot of laws that might keep me from uh kicking them out so I think that would need to be uh a consideration for that but we feel pretty confident and and who we going to be uh residing here and if if the uh the math says we can only have one I'm comfortable with with that if the math says one and a half I'll go with that thank you Mr shway um we're I'd like to propose that we take a look at um coming back as soon as possible because I think i' I'd like to have the knowledge about the 150 and I really appreciate your um willingness to I think you need to um address the size of the rooms and have the lease uh including the number of people um that are allowed in each unit um delineated in the lease I think i' I'd like to see a site plan that has the the placement of the um waste area where the trash is going to be that's that's normal what we normally see we know where where the waste would be I think having a getting the cut sheets for what what kind of Lights you're going to use is simple um that could come back quickly to us I think that um I love the idea of e charging stations if you're going to do that it makes sense I also think if you have the um parking lot U I think you have to I want to make sure that you have sufficient space for the parking spaces if they're they meet the 8 ft wide and the and the handicap or or eight or wider 10 or 15 ft and I think you it should be delineated on a piece of paper on a plan we normally see that um what other I think those are the basic questions and I think you know I think this project is the kind of thing that that makes a lot of sense but I think those are questions that we have a responsibility to have answers to before we approve the project and so Mr sham I'm not I know that's not what you want to hear but I think we're doing our due diligence to make sure and I think we're giving you the indication from everything I hear that this project is an improvement in the neighborhood but we just need to know a few more things before we bless it and send it on its way fair enough can I ask one question actually I would like your opinion um we talked about the location of the dumpster um as I had mentioned if if I come back I I really have uh the East Pleasant side uh yeah Tom move that North right there that that's where I would be trying to hide a dumpster there MH um if I put the dumpster there is the board okay with that you know I I I don't think it's a bad place um I think it just has to be shielded I mean is that where it is currently that's where it's been and and I and I said earlier and this is I'm being completely yeah honest you know clear with you as far as I'm not sure that's the best place if if if you take a look at the resident that's going to be living right there I'm not yeah I'm not sure I would want that there um I'm not sure we're here trying to make every tenant perfectly happy uh it would be nice but the next location that I can see would be in the lower lot if we go yeah down there um it would possibly steal a parking space um it's it's further away however my concern there is it becomes a little bit more visible to the church in that area and down a little close so it's a little more visible and I don't kind of like that but if I were a resident it's a little further away to walk to throw out the garbage as well I don't think that's a huge issue I think what I would love to try to say is go back up to where it was before Tom I I'm going to try to show it to you there and if my tenants have a problem or if we find that we just aren't serving the tenants properly would you allow me to move it back down below so to answer your question first off I'm not going to tell you where to put your your trash thing unless it's really offensive and I think both of those are have pluses and minuses and so either one is I think it's fine okay or may other members may have a different opinion and so you come back and show us where you want to have it I think that also if you modify the place where you move it you you need to come back to the to the Building Commissioner and say this is a a minor change and he can view it and say to us you know I think this is a minor change I don't think you need to to um um go back before the zba or he or perhaps you can draft a condition that said it's up there if they decide to move it down to the lower lot um there's no need to get a a have a public hearing it can be decided yeah well just figure out a way around that yeah I'm just I just want to kind of because as a lodge you know you're having people there for one or two nights so you no one says much but if you have somebody who's living there um it means a little bit more to them and it would mean more to me and probably you so I guess I'm being a little bit I'm trying to think forward of some of the issues that we have as as landlords yep I understand and I I appreciate your your thoughtfulness about the the unpleasantness of looking out your window and seeing a dumpster so screening is what is is a good thing um and then we work for the church too to have screening so either one you you decide that's you know that's I don't want to we can come back with you all these conditions quite quickly uh we're a little behind on our on our construction work but uh if we can come back in is there a possibility to come back in in August is there another meeting um I think there miss breast I I think there is isn't there do we have to there's a meeting in August on the 22nd but I'll tell you what it's has on it already it has Jonathan Murray coming and giving you a uh talk about the legal aspects of Solar Development and um then it has um a special permit application for 161 Chestnut Avenue which is a two family non-owner occupied two family public hearing so those two items are on that agenda um but it sounds like this may be relatively quick if Mr Shumway and Mr Rey bring back the information that you're looking for um you may be able to resolve this in say a half hour or so I think we could that would be great greatly appreciate I'd like to yeah I'd like to expedite the consideration of this as much as possible I I have no reason to I don't oppose this project so you want to do that on the 22nd that's I think about the 22nd yep can the members uh take a quick poll can the members on the panel attend the meeting on August 22nd yes all right yeah yes I can I'm available Mr Henry how about you I'm available okay I just better check before I yep I'm I'm good okay well thank you all very much that's terrific all right so um anybody else have any suggestions for the applicant that you'd like to see they come back on the 22nd uh chair judge I just wanted to um ask if the proposed conditions that we sort of drafted I think there's about 23 in all um and I think a few more now that I've added to them as we've gone through this meeting if we can just share that with uh attorney REI and his applicants that they know exactly what we're looking for I think that would help expedite the process as well I think it's a great idea okay yep and Mr judge can I just run through the list just to make sure we've got what we have to provide yep okay so lighting show it on the site plan uh and the dark sky compliant cut sheets yep trash show it on the plan uh in addition to what I would think is screening and any I'll say cut sheet if there's going to be a fence or some uh dumpster enclosure uh modify the lease in accordance with the discussion to specifically address the guests uh allowed overnight uh duration and number and then the parking you know one per unit instead of one per person uh dimensions of the studio and one bedrooms uh as that impacts uh occupancy as well and then uh the dimensions of the parking and location and dimensions of the Ada spaces and then you know Mr Shumway if he's thinking about EV where does that go but that's that's the list I had that I miss anything or is that I think that is there another one M PR you'll you'll see that the list will expand a little bit attorney REI as you see this list of conditions so for example with the EVS um that might change or offset his parking count um just depending on the requirements okay can I can I ask there was a the way Tom read the parking I think Tom said one my my my hope would be one per unit with the discretion of more if we decide that we want to allow that right right just we're not going to be allowing more parking than we have parking spaces we can I can I can live with that that's sort of an obvious well maybe it's not obvious but that's how we would manage it um so however Tom phrased it caught my attention okay and you're going to need more than one parking space for the two-bedrooms so yeah uh maybe but again maybe and maybe not and again we have we have many circumstances where we do not allow three cars for a three-bedroom apartment we we manage we we manage that quite tightly so I just want to have the flex ability to be able to utilize all my spaces you got it okay that I don't have anything else to add to the list for the 22nd does anybody else if not I'd entertain a motion that we continue this um meeting until August 22nd we it would we do that after the uh solar presentation so it' be around I'm gu thingss 7:00 to 7:30 do I have such a motion Mr sler moves is there a second Mr Barner seconds any discussion on the motion if not the vote occurs on the motion to continue this till August 22nd at around 7:30 um the chair votes I Mr Barner I Mr Meadows hi Mr sler I Mr Henry I vote is five to nothing to to continue this in public hearing until August 22nd all right thank you we'll see you then thank you guys byebye uh next order of business is public comment on any matter not before the board tonight this is where the public has an opportunity to comment on anything except those issues before us if you wish to comment please give us your name and address for the record no public comment um next is any matters not brought up in not um listed in the last 48 hours in a new business and I think the only one we really need to talk about is the schedule for the August and the first part of September Miss bre can you just run through that again so the next meeting is August 22nd and you have Jonathan Murray from KP law coming to talk about the legal aspects of solar and you have 161 Chestnut Avenue um a non-owner occupied two family coming before you for special permit and now you have this University Lodge added to that and then on August 29th you have um the wayfinders comprehensive permit um that will be the first session of the public hearing at which you will be voting on um Safe Harbor and also hearing an introduction to the project and perhaps um hearing more specifics about one or the other of the sites and then you have September 12th there might be another date for September 12th Miss jenta do you know um I don't have the ZB oh yes I do I don't have anything for the 5th I see the 12th on my calendar the 12th um we have shutesbury Road solar yeah and then um we don't have anything for the 26th of September yet and then you have the 10th of October um the Jonathan clate is coming back to talk to you about Redgate Lane that was continued from July 11th and one of you can't be there that night I think it's Mr slober not available um and then you have uh October 24th and Mr judge is not available is that correct that's correct yep but we don't have anything scheduled for then um I don't know what the wayfinder schedule is uh I don't have that at hand right now but I think U Miss Williams sent it out didn't she yeah did I have a note on my calendar that there's that there's something on the 19th of September for wayfinders yeah full wayfinders meeting you skipped over the 19th of September so that's in a different category in my my um and I think that Miss Williams sent out a list of all of the meetings for um for wayfinders actually I have it right in front of me yes September 19th is one of the dates October 10th October 17th November 14th I I don't really need to go on and on but um you should let Miss Williams know if you're not available for one of those dates um for the way finders and I think everyone here plus Mr White and minus Mr Varner would be on that panel is that correct that is correct yep so if I just I just remind everybody that you can only miss one right so I I did not hear the 26th of September so for the record I will not be available on the 26th of September okay great thank you all right everybody I think that wraps everything up unless somebody has some Mr sler this has little to do with this board but it does have to do with email my my email account apparently has been hacked so if you if any of you receive an invitation an an Evite to an elegant dinner is the sucker line that I'm inviting you to an elegant dinner at some point in the near future beginning at 4 o'clock and O and open the invitation don't they're looking to get your email address it's a phony electronic invitation I don't know how they got to me I guess I'm just special but there you are so if you think I've invited you to a party I haven't you're so disappointed all of us we're gonna have a great time on your DME someone wrote to me saying I can't open the invitation and it's a bummer I was looking forward to it so yeah well it doesn't exist all right all right so I'm just warning everybody because one way or another your emails are in my email great there there you are all right well we've reached 903 um time for us to put this to bed um I'd entertain a motion to adjourn do I have such a motion so moved is there a second a second all right Mr Barner thank you you it's been moved and seconded that we adjourn um that is non-debatable motion the chair votes I Mr Meadows hi Mr Henry hi Mr sler hi Mr Barner hi we are adjourned thank you all for everything I appreciate the hard workk you