it's my black cour are we looking for this Bob We Ready back there okay all right call a workshop order commissioner Smith if you'll give us prayer and the pledge please sir I follow once again and that we come before your presence thank you Lord for this opportunity for us be Servants of your city we ask for your blessings upon this meeting we pray oh God that all that is said will be pleasing and acceptable in your sight help us heavly father to be agreeable and that we will do for in the best interest of this city in thy son Jesus name we pray amen amen flag the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right well this is it's been a while since we've done a joint planning council meeting together but anyway glad to have our Planning Commission here with us tonight Jim you want to get us started in kind of the history of the kpi and then yes sir Jim community development director room drop that a little bit for me because I'm shorter um so this is uh this is in regards to the Kelly Park interchange the form based code uh this was originally adopted back in June 20 on June 21st 2017 and Incorporated in the Land Development code with an update on March 16 2019 as appendix a uh the Kelly Park form based code uh was started originally in 2009 as part of the Waba Parkway interchange plan that was a requirement by the Waba Parkway and prote act itself the kpi which I'm going to refer to as kpi from now on um area functions to support the movement of people and goods and is designed to complement the surrounding area while protecting the water and Wildlife Resources that's one of the primary concerns uh the one mile radius from uh State Road 429 in the Kelly Park Road intersection is the location uh there are five main overlay districts uh design districts to start uh that include The Interchange itself which is right at The Interchange of course uh The Village Center there's two Center two Village centers on the East and the west side of uh The Interchange itself transition which we also have two portions of the transition District there's an employment District which is primarily on the south uh this is uh where we have some of the warehousing and there's also a small portion on the North side and then the neighborhood which is our least density those are single family homes that kind of surround around the area and uh on September 19th 2018 we did add the Medtech District uh which takes into account the Orlando Health property that's off of Fe Drive um on the North side uh Northwest side of uh of The Interchange the purpose of the cell Park interchange form based code standards is a guide to the Future development within the one mile of The Interchange itself and the creation of a sustainable community that supports Regional markets uh dependent on the Parkways function uh which is to move people in Goods this includes Light Industry and warehousing hotels motels restaurant gas stations truck stops and convenience stores it also promotes economic growth and diversity and it's designed uh as a as a complement to the surrounding area and manages and protects water and Wildlife Resources the form based code regulations uh use physical form rather than a separation of land uses themselves as their organiz is their organizing principle for the community itself the primary intent of the form-based code regulations is to shape the public Realm by addressing elements such as Street design public open space and building form and placement one of the big things about the uh the kpi and the form based code itself is that it is all public there are no private roads or private communities in this area for tonight's uh discussion um as all of you you know we did send out the form base code um with some edits that uh that the applicant has has provided um this project itself includes over 304 acres and Crosses five of the design districts uh the developer has attained an overall bubble plan for the districts and the employment District which has um also been approved for warehousing and is located on the south side of uh Saddler Road the Saddler Road Extension the develop excuse me the developer did meet with staff and the mayor on Tuesday January 16th of this year at which time they did uh inquire about meeting with each of you uh city council and Planning Commission uh separately staff did recommend uh that rather than separate meetings that we hold a joint meeting uh to provide a consistent information to both uh both City boards while Oaks developer also let us know that they did have a Redline version of the desired amendments to the kpi form based code that they did feel was needed uh for the development to succeed at this stage as most of you have already looked at there are a little over 200 edits to this proposal uh there was no draft site plan or reasoning provided for the multitude of amendments that were being asked for so the context of them did seem extremely ex extensive with no justification and covered virtually every page of the 114 page document the redline codes were supplied to the City staff on January 24th of this of this year uh there are extensive edits and staff has only had about two weeks to prepare our first draft comments which you also have received these are brief but do reflect many of the areas that the staff does not agree with utilizing all of the proposed amendments uh does look to reduce uh the form-based code effectivess and the intentions of that of that code there are areas that the staff has been looking at um at amending and could be included in the next batch of glitch amendments some of these are included in the uh in the recommended amendments that the developer has has also recommended we can coordinate with the developer on many of these with that being said like to turn the podium over to uh I believe it's Joe you're gonna talk first from the Wild Oaks and uh to present their proposed amendments and make some comments thank you very much thanks folks um I appreciate everyone's time tonight and um I wanted to liken what I think we're we're faced with now after the groundbreaking is maybe the equivalent of we've had the pep rally and now the hard part which is you know running past that 240lb linebacker which is the marketplace and all the challenges that will come with this um Wild Oaks development so I am up for it we have a great team assembled um and I think the city has a great team that um we can work together on um so many of these things what I wanted to just um Express tonight is we view this as a working session we need your all's help um to Think Through the plan um to Think Through the code um as Jim said we have five of the uses I think we're the only developer who has so many of them in one um in one project and we are to date have spent well into seven figures on civil engineering Master planning architecture um research on the retail and we are at the point now that the groundbreaking is done where we really want to work collaboratively and I know a New Economic Development officer has been adding added um to um the city staff um there are so many challenges in front of us in order for us to be able to attract a great collection of tenants and co-creators and developers to invest their money in what is a really difficult market right now particularly for developers to borrow money so we didn't know any other way to get the discussion started started than to bring a whole team of experts together and try and mark up what we think are suggestions that's that's all um and from my board's perspective um I should also share that I'm a little bit of an army of one because there's a certainly a sense on my board to say we're okay with the form based code we can make some small changes to it um let's take the win and do something that is not pioneering in nature um and it will come out fine and we don't want to push the envelope too hard because we may fail and we may actually make less of a return on our investment and it may instead of taking us three to five years it may take us 7 to 12 years and I respect that um and the same way that I respect that the code today represents the rules but I also have a lifetime committed to this um Master planning and real estate Development I've been involved in some great real estate deals some horrible real estate deals and there's one success that we had um that was in some in some regards very similar it ended up to be 4200 multif family units where we acquired about 80% of the developable land on a 330 acre Peninsula that um required that we knock down about 6 and a half million feet of shuttered manufacturing buildings that's where Pitney Bose was started it was where Mr Pitney met Mr Bose it was where the Tumbler lock was found and there was a tremendous amount of industrial history and by the mid 70s it became abandoned and those jobs moved someplace else that was more um economical and I became involved in the early 2000s um fast forward 20 years projects a major financial success um 40 maybe 3,800 of the 4200 units had been built rented sold money was made um except we were right at the outset of the project just like this and I I was too young and not forceful enough to stand up and say there's just not there wasn't enough retail that was permitted and at the end of the day I went back internally to my team and I had bosses and the folks who had invested in the money it was it was mostly um School endowments and they said take the win just do it it's it's a winner why push the point um the city at the time wanted to keep wanted to protect the businesses that were on the other side of I95 and we said okay we'll do it and that is about where I feel like we are today and I don't want to move forward without at least having spent the time and the money to show images tonight of what at least our reading of the code says we're not able to do so if I can show those pictures of what we can't do tonight we as a team can all decide do we want to change the code to be able to try and do that and if we can't we're totally fine as I said I'm a little bit of an army of one on my team um and I just go back to you know Vero and the boards like okay just just take the win so that's the spirit in which we're coming tonight um to this um this is in no way shape or form an argumentative um position or we take this or leave it we're um we bought this property the code existed it's no surprise to us um we can live with it um but we just want to see if we can work as a team together you'll heard me say I'm so proud of the fact that we always win 5 5 5 5 um I only want to do something if it's another 5- Z and everyone loves it so with that I'm going to let my team um present more formal remarks those were a little bit of emotional and heartfelt remarks so thank you I just want to remind everybody this is a 2hour workshop so we're we're looking at about an hour 40550 minutes right now anyone at the PowerPoint right are you the official time keeper no I'm not the timer I think this is there you go okay all right thank you good evening can you hear me okay yes great my name is Jim Constantine I'm a principal of planning with the firm of lrk uh here in Orlando and I am we are our firm Architects planners are one member of a multidisiplinary team that includes lots and lots of other folks and you'll hear this evening as well from Bob Gibbs who's our retail consultant um so we wanted to First just walk everyone through um where our site is located in the number of districts that it entails so outlined on the screen so you guys see it all right is uh the site there off the 429 at West Kelly Park Road and I I think as was already mentioned we Encompass and touch on and incorporate in our Holdings a number of the districts that are in the uh Kelly Park interchange area probably no one else has this many of the of the districts within there um if we look at what's been happening out there in blue we've indicated some of the single family recent development that's sort of surrounding us from the south to the west and North West uh in pink you see a couple of the commercial developments um but compare the size of those again to the multi-district area that we Encompass and I think um we're really testing a lot of different provisions of different uses and uh elements of the form base code so this takes us in a little closer we spun around now North is to the left West Kelly Park Road is up there so we touch on all of these districts within the kpi and we have been testing testing the form base code and actually beginning to apply it to try to understand um how it applies what's possible um are there places that there's some issues so let me just explain and I'm going to learn to use this pointer here okay here we go great so obviously 429 uh West Kelly Park so this is one of your key enter sections golden gem and West Kelly Park so the quadrant that we have whoops sorry there go back uh incorporates uh a Village Center area and you'll notice in here that we have a large green space that leads to the transition zone to the South uh that's wild green which also connects up here to another large open space and these aren't the only parks in Open Spaces but I just wanted to identify and Joe referred to that is Yonder uh when we were at the groundbreaking if we wanted to compare the size flip back here the size of wild green is about half of for those of you that are familiar with Winter Park about half of the size of Central Park Yonder is actually larger here is Winter Park there is Central Park on the Park Avenue side um so you can basically start to see some scale and by the way our Village Center is comparable in length uh to what you see there at Winter Park another scale comparison and it's a community that we have a lot of experience in is Baldwin Park if any of you are familiar with that in Orlando so whoops and that didn't show for some reason go back through that again ah there it is I'm sorry it was in the slide before so there is the uh the length of new Broad Street in the core of Balwin Park and again similar in scale and I know that Joe shared these during the groundbreaking just as a scale reference to understand just how much land is out there and it's quite significant I am about to say that you read my next SL I wanted to uh talk about the vision and in fact we we fully um endorse and support and want to be part of bringing to reality the vision that you've set with the form base code and I and I I understand some of the comments that Jim made a concern I would be too in the staff's shoes and by the way we also work for public jurisdictions and we work for public jurisdictions in some places actually writing and administering form-based codes and doing design review um so you want to create this great special place and put the city on the map and we we we endorse that um our firm has spent uh the past 25 years at Celebration where we actually serve as the town architect we review everything that happens at Celebration on behalf of the various development entities that have controlled it um we've also probably design more buildings in celebration to the world's thickest form base code and design regulations at Balwin Park we've been involved similarly for the past two decades and really um are the vision keeper as the town architect the review architect at Balwin Park we've also designed significant portions of it of all different building types in all different neighborhoods there um as well and in fact in our role at Balwin Park we work as the town architect working for the master developer working hand inand with the city planner that's assigned to Balwin Park from the city of Orlando and one of the things that we have learned in the process of being part of these long-term we call it Vision keeper um because we really take that role uh uh you know very seriously and by the way Orlando understood that the the design review role was incredibly important from the Lessons Learned out at Celebration um that we have developed uh in working with our counterparts in the public sector sharing the desire to be the vision Keepers uh that we need also flexible Provisions um and so actually what doesn't get discussed in projects like Paul and Park is that there's ability for waivers and flexibility in interpreting some of the design Provisions so it's not the letter of the law a letter of the code that necessarily defines everything it's also a process of finding the right fit unique sites crafting things in place you know gee what happens if we did this here or allowed something to happen that's not in the code but it meets the intent and purpose keeps the vision and that's really the spirit of vision keeping um so as Jim articul ated this is really meant to create a vision for public space and streets and also um spaces like parks that you see down below in in Winter Park that uh we're going to share some images of tonight because we think it's again another great local example and and one other thing that we noted in the introduction of your section of your code is that the regulations are intended to encourage diversity and variation physical form um in this case that would be applied really across a whole variety of different uses scales and densities and that's sort of the challenge when you're writing one of these codes because it's it's often hard to Envision every application so um with that said we think there's lots of things that the code uh absolutely does well and that we can meet and embrace and work with but we also as we've been testing it and kind of truthing it and looking at some of the provisions we've identified some potential challenges and that as Joe indicated is really what we want to share tonight we have found that there are Provisions that work there are others that have raised question about intent or how would this be interpreted because we're having trouble interpreting it and I would argue we probably have one of the greatest depths of knowledge of interpreting uh design based codes uh in in this region um And Then There Are Places where there are Provisions that appear to actually be in conflict with one another so the says this the section says that and that you know absolutely exists in all codes and that's part of this whole process of having waivers and flexibility that we've discovered really allows for that to um to allow these to evolve in a way that's practical and that also doesn't freeze the project in place uh because there is no code that's perfect I have written uh dozens and dozens of design codes and you cannot write the perfect code um so some of these are technical issues some are design issues some are procedural issues I'm just going to try to walk you through some of these at a high level because I'm not sure in the red line that we passed up uh it would be hard to look at that and understand intent and maybe some of the application first of all I want to say that with regards to a lot of the building type and the way it should meet the street and create a dynamic public realm like you see pictured here and by the way this is Ed E Street Commons at Notre Dame this is one of the mixed use Town Center projects that our firm has designed um we're using the 10 foot sidewalk setback Zone that's in the code this this building right here and this street would meet the code um so we we think there are lots of places where we can build things that would meet the code however if we wanted to do something like place a portion of a restaurant's Cafe curbside with which is a very prevalent condition in Winter Park it's not permitted by the code this sort of condition is not permitted and it's not for necessarily every restaurant tour but right now you're saying the only place they can be is basically those tables that are closest to the to the uh to the restaurant itself and not uh curbside um we think diners make the choices but the one thing we do know is that pedestrians love the experience of walking through the middle of outdoor dining uh and we'd like to have that flexibility or uh up in West Palm Beach or down in West Palm Beach um they have been doing extensive work in creating shared space street plaza conditions this is uh CLA Street they also have Rosemary Square places where you're driving through but it feels more like you're in a plaza and again your Plaza definition doesn't quite allow that and the street types that are in the code wouldn't quite allow this um will tell you that there is a revolution going on it was really fueled also by the pandemic because outdoor spaces just became utilized more so this sort of wonderful piece of Street restaurants engaging in there slow slow moving traffic again wouldn't be permitted by the code um there are places where we might want to have a combined Sidewalk Cafe on a side street this is just 12 feet from building face to curb again that would not be permitted under the code um we also think there's some questions about one-story buildings we want to see mostly mixed use multi-story uh type configurations but there's a need for some one-story retail for certain users Bob Gibbs can speak more to that and we see in the code it says not encouraged we've seen an interpretation say it's actually not permitted um we think there's a place for it and here's Balwin Park uh a portion of their mixed use Village core most of it's multi-story but a portion of it is single story and so we think that kind of flexibility is essential to deliver a great place another community that we've been involved with recently is the new water side at Lakewood Ranch um there's conditions where public space actually integrates food and beverage uses with it and we think that's a great way to make public space more active and vital in a Village Center um again the code doesn't seem to have a place for that so we have sort of a question on that but these are things that we think could me make for a fantastic vision and then lastly this is a block part of the Village Center that we designed in Balwin Park that can be built under the code so what we're trying to point out tonight is there's definitely some things that work there's some other things that we think can make for a a terrific place that don't have a a location right now and a permissibility under the code and we'd like to try to explore expand on a dialogue as Joe was saying to basically try to find ways that we might look at that so now let's look at some additional potential challenges we identified in the range of some of the we talked about the flexibility in the setback Zone that we're we'd love to have for particularly for outdoor dining and maybe some retail display um we'd like to uh also explore a range expanding a range of permitted building types um that's what we really found was probably one of the more um siloed sections of the code that we'd like to adjust and then there's some things regarding block Dimensions so let me show you a few examples on that start with block Dimensions here's Balwin Park Village Center I think a number of you said you're familiar with it um so we're going to look at a couple of blocks right in the core the Main Street core is a new Broad Street right there and if we look at this block right here the short dimension on the Main Street 325 ft in length meets the code the longer dimension of 675 is um Way Beyond the 400 feet um however that block length there if you were to go to for instance Winter Park from Park Avenue to the back of the first blocks and their retail core it's 740 ft so we one of the things we flagged was the 400 foot Dimension and we'll look at it a little more closely here in terms of what's Happening um in terms of uses in the block and particularly a requirement that um we have active ground floor uses everywhere so there is that same block we're spun around new Broad Street is at the top the two blocks at the top Center and right with mixed use buildings um meet the mixed use meet would meet all everything in your code in fact you have pictures I think of both of these blocks in the code AS examples of what to do um and there's also some passages that break through those blocks that you see they're in blue however every other Frontage in here runs into a problem with the form based code and this is an example uh we'd argue of one of the Region's you know best mixed use Village centers like you're trying to encourage with your vision and we just want to figure out a way to get there so what what doesn't work we have some single story uh retail here that's actually part of a hybrid building that becomes attached to a multifam building that also includes a garage it looks a little brutal from up above but um that whole multifam this whole block um we might argue on the retail we could you could maybe make it fit the multif family building doesn't actually meet the definitions that you have is you have a multif family building that needs to look like a a large single family home or you have a complex of buildings but what I'm showing you right here on the left with the pool Courtyard with the other Courtyard with the parking garage sometimes referred to as a Texas donut because the prevalence of how this building form came from Texas to all other 50 states um this particular building type doesn't have a place that permits it uh in the form based code on the next block in purple the live work units that you see located right here um are also permitted in the code but not in the Village Center which is the place you'd most want to have them and they're used here as a transition uh we'll show you a little bit more on from the mixed use coree on new Broad Street heading back and then the multif family and town homes um because they don't have active ground floor uses with a lot of exposure because their living spaces again uh wouldn't meet the code and that's also the problem with the multif family so let me take you down to the bottom of the street there with the little vrow and by the way we're pointing this out in an effort to really try to help everybody understand what what we'd like to try to work with st stff on and the city to try to make work within the code that right now are some limits that's that street view right there so I mentioned we don't have a place in the code that allows these Town Center multif family building and the sort of building you're seeing on the left is it's pretty typical uh four-story um Urban type multif family something you'd want in a Village Center it's got some Terraces and balconies it does a little color treatment to try to offset the for story it's a little different than what's permitted in the code um which would actually require a step back um but that's what that looks like the work live units as I mentioned aren't permitted in the Village Center and then the type that you define says they have to be an up and down unit and the ground floor can only be commercial well what you're looking at here in these two Regional examples are ones where the ground floor actually is a flex space it can be residential or commercial use and often as you can see from some of the signs this is not prime retail use this is back office space it's the lawyer that has a little small little office at home or near home uh or in some cases as you see on the right some of the units are residential right next to the ones that are used for some sort of Light commercial uh activity and so again we think in the Village Center we need things that we know work in the region um there that's not a a major use it's something that kind of fills in gaps at some particular places and side streets we also discovered in the in the design section and by the way writing architectural codes is the most difficult part of of of a form based code um but we found a whole series of of little Provisions that raise Flags um one actually relates to style itself the code doesn't say you have to have a a specific style but it says classically derived Styles and then it lists about six of them we think that needs to be expanded and in fact the building that you're looking at here which I know Joe believes is something he'd love to see built here at Wild Oaks um doesn't meet the code it's classically derived so there is Mediterranean Revival Southern Coastal style uh Coastal contemporary modern contemporary Spanish Colonial postmodern Arco industrial that are all Florida sty that AR permitted explicitly in the code and we think the place would be richer um with with an expansion of of uh Styles and we say that as designers because we think the diversity is great um by the way that's a building that we designed at um uh laanta outside of San Antonio this is another building uh generation Park uh this is a rendering but it was recently completed now this building runs into problems with some of the color and building treatments um this is actually a singular building but because it's a long block we've broken it into two pieces so that you don't get this massive building that goes for hundreds of feet however your code says that a single building has to be treated uniformly on all sides and would actually call for this building to become a larger more massive design building so um the other thing is it has some color Provisions material treatments um so again we're looking to try to um work with you to create flexibility so that on larger blocks where there's multif family above retail just like you envision in the code we can design some of these ones to larger ones to actually look like multiple buildings versus a singular long building which your code right now would require uh and then lastly um with regard to some of the style diversity we think again some contemporary buildings like you see here again don't have a place in the code we wanted to point out is some of the buildings in the core if we achieve the vision that you've set which as Joe indicated is is a risk it's there's a lot of risk in trying to make this happen and really create this active core um we'd like to try to focus density where it makes sense in the heart of the Village Center so it's a truly lively place um these buildings have some signs that you see that are all in scale for the individual buildings and also do some creative things there's a couple of little uh roof signs in here as well while the signs are all in scale of these buildings none of these fit the 200 foot limits within the code and we do think here particularly because of your topography and the fact that there actually are views to downtown Orlando and I always say to other folks and views for downtown Orlando to see this city put you on the map we think we'd love to see some opportunity to have some signage that also could be expressive for the entire uh Wild Oaks Village Center so then last just sort of talking about some open space issues and we really are suggesting that there should be greater flexibility in designing the types of open space and then some master planning flexibility to create networks that um really go beyond right now there's some very individual um categorization or typologies for the different type of open space but for instance we think there's other types that are essential and terrific but aren't permitted so one of those would uh first Parks like this surrounded by streets fronted by homes we can do it this is an example of one that we designed uh all of the surrounding buildings at Balwin Park this is permitted so again I'm reinforcing we're not saying the code we're saying the code absolutely Works in certain Provisions we can deliver something like this but if we wanted to go and put a muse space a linear Green Space promenades or some linear Courtyards any of those sorts of treatments that's actually something that doesn't have a place in the code today and these M spaces are absolutely terrific to front town homes on I think we have one interested party that would love to do something like this as part of the Village Center uh there are extensive networks of these at Balwin Park uh we can't count these as open space or get credit for it but that it's public open space and it's accessible and then there's also the ability uh well we'd like to see the ability to somehow credit some portion of semi-public Courtyards where multifam may be providing a gift to the street in terms of this wonderful open court which we think in some ways is nicer than a four-story wall of Apartments but this green space is may have limited access may have semi-public access and so we're just suggesting that in some cases we may be able to do more of these but there is a there is an open space benefit visually to the community right now it's not credited and then one last point on open space and then I'm going to turn it over to Bob um we pointed out yonder up at the top we did the groundbreaking for any of you who were there in the middle of Yonder Joe speaks passionately about it not all Open Spaces created the same and there is an additional effort to try to go in and preserve these wonderful Heritage Oaks and for any of you that weren't at the groundbreaking this is one of those trees that's out there um and so we do think that again in looking more flexibly at the entire open space Network and how we can link things together in sight lines and go from small parks to Muse to promenades and connect up to the preserved Heritage Oaks that there the the code couldn't Envision all that nobody could have um but we'd like to find a way to bring that into the process to create the best possible place so that's what I have to explain walking through and right now I'd like to turn the podium over to Bob Gibbs thank you good evening I'm Bob Gibbs and I'm here to uh assist with the retail Planning and Development before we start should just ask you if there's any comments or questions before I switch GE here there I'm Bob Gibbs again I'm here the retail specialist to uh advise on the uh retail development and I guess the um uh my background is specializing in planning and designing complex mixed juuse centers I'm one of the original uh developers of the form based code back in the 1990s and at the time I want to just give a little background about that at the time we uh went around the country and measured and photographed what we considered to be the best uh downtowns you know Okala Winter Park uh Charleston Savannah Palm Beach Naples and we found they all had certain common characteristics um the street width building of the height and such and we put all of the best of the best in one code you know the best Building height best store designs into one code and it sort of became a super form-based code which I published books on and has really I I recognize a lot of that in your own code and what we found out is that none of the places that we modeled it after are allowed under the code that we created because we just picked the best parts of each City and not every city is is perfect there's a few that have been built to be perfect but they're very boring and uh nobody likes to go there so um what what we're recommending now is that the best of the best be the aspiration and the guideline and that there be a number of things that have to happen but in order to create places that have and where you can get emotionally connected to or what you really like um there has to be be some Market base to them for example Seaside it would not be allowed to be built today Seaside would be illegal to build up in the pin handle same with Alice Beach same with Rosemary Beach same with ion and Charleston almost every other great places that was built under the new urbanism is now illegal to build because frankly my code and Jim and others have been codified into to the eighth commandment or something it has to be done this way and it doesn't work that way these places that we love this is um Oldtown Alexandria have imperfect sidewalks they have sidewalks that are great sidewalks that are not they have places where we can people can park people of course want to go and park nearby and um what we have found is that in many of the New Towns this was planned by lrk many of the new towns that follow these codes just aren't meeting the market this is a great exception to that rule but many of these new towns that have been built in fact we EST I estimate that 34s of the new towns that have been built since the 1990s have gone through a default and they have not been successful because the market was so held back with the parking or the signage or the size of the building there's a lot of these codes we just worked on one in in Utah that didn't get that was built and failed because the supermarkets weren't allowed to be more than 5,000 square fet well that's something that we prescribed in the 1990s but it doesn't work so um what this team is trying to do is to take those idealized by the book codes that we all wrote in the 90s and to use that as a starting point but to build in flexibility so that the market can work there speaking of the market um I've been retained to do a a a sophisticated market analysis of what kind of restaurants and shops and services would work in this location and we found that uh there is an extremely strong demand for really nice restaurants shoe stores clothing stores art galleries Furnitures groceries that uh will sort of Hit the mid to Mid uper Market I don't know if you know this but I'm a demographer the I4 Corridor is considered as America's Main Street the I4 Corridor has the exact profile of almost all demographic age educational income political groups in the United States and when a new restaurant wants to do a TR a test kitchen or when a new children's store wants to try a new store they immediately want to go to the I4 Corridor because if it can work here it can work anywhere in America and our peer reviews that researched our analysis said yes heck yes we want to be in Northwest Orlando as a matter of fact there have been thousands of new stores that have announced they want to open in the next five years in the United States uh since Co turns out that women now are wearing slacks and shoes and men are wearing shirts and jackets and people are getting dressed up again uh children are going to school they're wearing nice clothes again and there say ground swell to build new retail in the country but especially in Florida and especially along the I4 Corridor so our analysis showed that the Town Center can support really great restaurants and shops for a whole gamut from that young single mother that young single parent all the way to the young professionals to the empty nesters um that this place can attract really great restaurants cafes Del contestants shoe stores art stores art galleries and such they'll want to go here and those retailers are not going in malls anymore as you probably read they don't want to go in malls they want to go into places like this that L arcade designed they want a real Main Street but they want real parking they want to be able to park nearby they want a place that's centrally managed so that the streets are clean the windows are washed it's safe and all of that they also want to locate in communities that care that have a master plan the fact that you have a form based code is a huge plus because it gives them predictability if they're going to spend a a million or two opening a restaurant or a cafe it give because of your code it gives them a predictability that the other ones down the street will be good too so it's a long way of saying is that we were very bullish on this location um the community has a has really a full gamut of Market options from very modest types of businesses to midlevel to Upper or mixed of all three and at this point this our group really needs the help from the community we need you to guide what types of businesses would you like to be here the choice is pretty broad I don't get to say that very often anymore but you have a lot of wide choices and we need help from the planners to take these form-based codes that we invented in the 90s to apply it to modern urbanism modern Lifestyles to really provide a place for people to park but to provide things to an upper level so I'm going to stop there and just say I'm delighted to be here we will need the community's help to pull these off these cost a lot more to build than strip centers there are the development team's going to have to go and Pitch hard to get the restaurants here over strip centers and uh the opportunities there this an extraordinary opportunity we do this all over the world and this would be one of the best markets we've seen probably in the last 5 years or so so with that I'd be happy to take questions or I know I've gone long-winded any any comments I've got a few just to kind of get us started so in the presentation we had I think it was one of the the the concepts of a modern word design aesthetic and saying that our code would prohibit something like that but if I look at our current code right now building design standard section K1 architecture it clearly says there's not a requirement for a specific architectural style so that would tell me that if you wanted to go that route you could because nothing in that code would include us now it seems like there's some interpretation issues going on so maybe section K1 contradicts something further elsewhere within the code but again I think those discrep discrepancies are stuff that to me seem fairly boilerplate and the natural kind of design and approval of designs normal course I would say so I guess at this stage what has led you to today have you had interactions with staff and you're not getting the answers that you want because some of these things you know it was pretty daunting when we get aund some OD page document and there's a lot of red lines and so for me I'm trying to prioritize what's most important versus stuff that's down the line that may be administrative in nature or at the very bottom where we're squabbling over the naming of or definition of something where there's not really a clearly defined definition anyways so to me when I first read this thing the big chunks are density right I mean there's there's Red Lines within the form G form base code where there's a desire to have Town Homes within the neighborhood District or the addition or insertion of town homes within the transition District which I would argue is really mean meaningless because it already talks about uh medium density residential anyways which is a town home um so just kind of talk to me what the interaction has been with staff um if there's any friction at this point or you're truly this is just a thought partnership type of conversation this is a thought partnership conver Tera tedro by the way this is a thought partnership conversation Joe bought this property I mean we this is a multi-year process that we've been working on this because when I had a conversation with your staff this morning I saw the comments back a lot of NOS or wise and I said guys I just don't want you to think this was meant to be adversarial it wasn't meant to be a criticism of your code I can promise you Joe doesn't just pay a ton of consultants for the fun of us talking you know three times a week and having hundreds of hours put into just that code revision that you saw we figured if we were going to go through an undertaking like this figure out everything what what is the most Ideal World of of a code change what would it look like because if we're going to send it all back it's going to get paired down we understood that we wanted to get forth something that said these are the Consultants somebody who's been named one of the most influential urbanists of the century Bob Gibbs on our team right lrk who does this for a living for other municipalities of this design review one of the biggest points we said is we wanted to give your staff more flexibility we didn't want to take away flexibility from your staff we wanted you to empower them to be able to make these types of decisions so that when we have a musees which I didn't even know what that was until you know we had our folks on our team and a lot of dollars spent on figuring some of these things out tell us that this is green space that's fantastic but it wouldn't count and if it doesn't count developers aren't going to do it because you're already so constrained and you have so much density and intensity that was contemplated in these areas that simply cannot be captured and so that is a a huge net loss to developers when they see I could theoretically get this many units but now when we take the code and we have to do these block lengths and we have to chop things up and I can't allocate my open space in a different way it's just not going to work and then they can't get the benefit that they thought they were going to realize on the front end so we would like for your staff to be able to make bigger decisions on the back end to be empowered to do some of those reviews or even if you had a consultant that acts the way lrk does um that does some of those design reviews for plans that get submitted I your staff's pretty overburdened as it is so I don't want to put more work on their plate to say give them all this flexibility but I really do think that they should be empowered to be able to live out the intent and the vision um of this form-based code and the other thing too is this project is unique not just because of having five different character districts in it the magnitude and the size of the project you can chop this thing up and you know Joe and his team can just sell it off to 30 developers and leave town and make money and everybody's happy probably won't be as happy and probably not as good of an end product as if we comprehensively master planned a project and tried to keep it all and have a couple pieces here and there with joint ventures or selling off like you saw Madison communities that came before your Planning and Zoning tonight with a wonderful multi family product for our first phase of residential so we're hopeful that we could start a dialogue we apologize if it seemed like an exhausting read that we sent you um but it was really meant to start a conversation and then for us to show you this to say hey here are some of the things that we'd like to do that we don't feel like we can do and if you say we don't want it then we'll stop putting in all of the effort and take all the Consultants off the clock and not put forth a 250 page written justification statement you know which we would have otherwise done in addition to the code changes yeah I think and not to come into your conversation but I think um you know what we saw in the presentation I would be hard pressed to think that anybody disputes that we want that vision um I think we're skirting around what the big mey things are and some of the changes that are in here and those mey changes being I'll just use the example town homes and the neighborhood District which right now is supposed to be only single family residential the the challenge that we have is that if we change the form based code broadly that broadly changes it for everybody not just this particular development um so you know and obviously we've all been a part of this process from from start to well hopefully to finish um the biggest concern from our residents is you know infrastructure impacts and all this stuff and so when we're talking about density and it's density that was you know some could argue buy or beware um you knew what you were getting into when you when you purchased this property but at the on the flip side of that argument too higher density will go to drive the success of a project like this and then it becomes self-serving and so people aren't necessarily getting that in their cars to go out and do the stuff that causes there to be traffic on the roadway so there's an inflection point that we have to consider during these these discussions as well um I don't have a finish to that statement but it's just I would rather not gloss over just the easy stuff let's just really you know I think the benefit of having the Planning Commission and the council jointly here is let's crack the big nuts and um you know really kind of driving that meaningful conversation yeah commissioner Becka the your point about becoming self-serving if we can figure ways to bring our density from 3,000 residences to 4,000 residences here um the impact that that will have to the restaurant tour and to the retailer and to my vision that there could be folks who may visit family on a Sunday I think I I spoke to one of the reporters about this and drives home and Parks his car and may work all week here and go to three different restaurants you know do an outdoor workout an indoor workout at a gym and have friends or a date on Saturday night and realize that he hasn't moved his car for five or six days and I think that's possible but the only way that becomes possible is if we have this sort of density here and and because we have the 429 because we have the new interchange because we're fortunate enough that Kelly Park Road is going to be four lanes thank goodness we're getting golden gem um Road looking like it's moving in the right direction Saddler going underneath the 429 we really have the infrastructure to be able to have that many folks come here and the economic impact of the jobs that that will create and the taxes that that will generate I know mayor demings was so thrilled to hear that there would be some more taxes coming through but that's a function of there being a lot of economic activity so that's everyone's goal so I think you're you're spot on that that's exactly what will happen I'm left here for some other questions so I always have a whole bunch so I'll go again if wants to chat yeah well I I guess we we really need to hear what it is that our staff is pushing back against that you're presenting that's going to prohibit you from developing the type of product that you want to develop and I just heard you say about increase in density is is that one of the things that's prohibiting or you moving forward is that you want to increase the density but staff is not in favor of the increasing density I I think that's a couple couple of things there's and they relate to two points um with regards to um density there's been um there's been some and it seems like it's a little bit conflicted in in the code but it's a bit unclear as to whether we can transfer density um and we when we talk about it um talk about stranded density when I talk about between 3 and 4,000 units there could be th000 units that get stranded and when I say stranded meaning they're in one district and we can't we we may be able to take a building from three stories to seven stories but we can't move it from one District to another district and therefore none of the jobs and none of the taxes that would have otherwise gotten created by that economic activity so that's one thing that exists in the code um and there's not this is now the second time I've heard is there anything that staff has not done for us we are in spring training um there's been nothing but cooperation communication um it's so early in the process we're probably pitchers catchers not even spring training at this point so the second comment that I would make is the rationalization of open space is a substantial issue um we talked about that yonder being 10 acres and the Central Park in Winter Park being it's really 4 Acres but if you include the other two and a half on the backside of the railroad that's a that has a lot of density around that 6 and a half acres and it's very vibrant when you watch when you're on Park Avenue and I have been and there's a movie being shown and you see all the people in the community at an outdoor movie um even with a couple of thousand people in that Park it's still not really full so with the Yonder being 10 acres and then we have that um wild green in the center I think we're getting to the point where they're almost too big and when they get big what happens is people tend to stick around the edges that's the research that Bob's given us they sort of afraid to walk into the center of something that's 20 acres and what I would also add with regards to open space is because we're so high some of the um some of the points in the project are at 125 ft above sea level which Florida is sort of like the Alps and our water retention is all dry retention so there are there's one dry retention Pond that I think is 30 Acres 30 am I exaggerating is it it's 30 Acres so that space will in a tremendous storm when no kids are out playing and nobody's out recreating will drain in a terrible storm will that drain in one day three days so a terrible storm three days the kids can go back out and play there they can play you know any kind of sports so that doesn't count as open space but my concerns are that we're consuming so much of the Acres with so much space some of it being dry detention and some of it being open space that again we're losing the ability to create density and intensity which is how the jobs get created which is how the taxes get generated and how the restaurants are able to profit and how the weight staff is able to say you know I'm not going to take that job in Hamlet because I can make better tips at Wild Oaks and it's such a competition for for staff they will go to where they will be able to make the most money in tips so those are the big when we say what are the big things that we can anchor to those are the big ones that concern me right now um that um we as I said that are in spring training and we can talk to staff about Mr sure now thank thank you for asking for this meeting I think it's very valuable for us for the residents it is a massive project we obviously do want to see it be successful uh is there a way to get a copy of the presentation that you guys do have for all of us Absol thank you it's just very helpful for us to go back and and um look at and just kind of see what the goals and Ambitions are there as well as you you notated uh or noted some of the the issues that you guys are going to be going through or what you guys kind of find hurdle so I appreciated that as well one of the things that I guess the question for tonight is is your goal in this meeting right now just to see if there's an appetite to move forward with these conversations or do you guys want to take a deep dive in the each item what what what's our goals tonight I think it's the former rather than the latter okay so just to see if there's an appetite to let's let's keep massaging this a little bit and see where we can find Common Ground yes okay well say just for me on my end that there's definitely an appetite on my for me to kind of see this massage my goal too would be a little give and take because the more that we kind of massage us a little bit the more successful your project is as well and maybe we can get a little bit more back for the residents that are currently here whether it's specific park space maybe not as big like you said but maybe some specific type of parks or um we're definitely going to need some type of substations or things like that for our fire and police up there so maybe something where we can work some things out that make sense for you guys to continue your progress and and success but also to help us and and and kind of cooperate in that capacity so that would be my thoughts but I definitely I'm open to the conversation moving forward thank you very much thank you you need to use a different analogy than pitchers and catchers he doesn't like baseball so s you can keep it with real estate I'm going with real estate commission gusler you got any questions good okay what commissioner Becker said I think that that pretty much clarified the questions I had and that this is on the first rub it it looked as if we were changing a whole lot of code to fit one project but now looking and and hearing more it's like maybe we need to adjust both sides maybe a compromise you guys compromise a little bit and the code need to be adjusted to allow more of these things and and I think that's a learning process you know city of apka hasn't built anything like this don't have any experience with that type of code maybe that's a maturing process that we're going through now so I I feel very comfortable with what's been presented so far okay commissioner Vasquez well it it's been a lot to take in but I will say this this form base code was done so many years ago and and you're right I mean uh it the demands for residential retail businesses has changed and um we're we're trying to build a wild Oaks for 2009 and it just is a't going to work because you obviously have the experts that worldwide you going around and and you're seeing the transition of people coming from the north from the Midwest and so we are trying to accommodate a changing uh landscape and we we we are kind of trying to keep you into a box and so I mean whatever you what you have presented tonight just seems viable it seems that it can work for us um even you know who thought n you know 10 years ago that 429 would bring this kind of uh you know demand for us here and it is so I mean I'm okay with what you're presenting again I'm going to agree with them that when I first saw the red lines I'm like well are we changing the form based code just for Wild Oaks or are we trying to adapt because um the form based code was done so long ago that was a vision for us back then but of course you know as time moves on and demands uh for families and how we want to live has changed and the code really is good as Bob said it's a the code is good it's a great starting it's a foundation it really is it didn't exist it would be a big problem found right it's a foundation but you're you're having some issues with some areas that you feel um can be changed a little bit can be tweaked and still get the same result right because that's is that what you're looking for yes that's the goal and the concerns that we're we were talking about is the the density making sure that we're able to get as much as we can because that's going to add the vibrancy making sure that people can park making sure that people like to use the parks and aren't frightened to go into the center of it because it's so um so those are the types of things that are on our mind um as we continue to work this out and I can see us having these I mean unfortunately um that's why I have a lot of young people on the team too I'm this going going to go on for years yeah I mean just go around all of Central Florida and you see different types of residents different types of neighborhoods and you you actually did uh present them celebration was a real big deal when they first came then Baldwin Park and you can see the demand and you can see the different families how they're choosing to live in the communities that they want um and we certainly want that for uh papka it's exciting um it is the only thing I'm just concerned with is the phases how you're going to build them because we want to kind of have it so that if you do build residential are we going to have some commercial and some retail coming in with them I mean I don't I don't know how that works because um some times if you build one phase completely and there's nothing to support that phase then it starts to you won't attract what you want you know these large retailers are um they're tough yeah and they push us around quite a bit because they have a lot of Leverage the better and more attractive that they are the more they throw their elbows so one of the reasons we hired Bob was to help us try and get our plan and get our code in shape to be able to attract them and maybe Bob you can talk a little bit about that like I've had a quick experience with Starbucks um but why don't you talk a little bit about their demands well but before B comes let me ask a hard question yes uh where are these kids going to school yeah well I understand that to the east there is a new school that is um that plannned West oh pardon me to the West yes it's the high school where they have it's a high school second High School right and that's going to be where well there's also another there's an elementary school they're they're working on right now as well it within um Tony's development is that right yeah right we we were trying to get a K8 but it looks like it might end up being an elementary K5 yeah mhm and so is that up by where the mushroom plant was high school that's where the high school the elementary will be just north of Kelly Park and I want to say would be west of golden gy I think or right around Golden Gym in Kelly Park just just north of Kelly Park you know commissioner SMI I shared this past week with our team um I actually one of my sons sent me a research piece that talked about Texas comparing to Florida and both of them attracting about half million new people per year per year half million and I States like Tennessee were 880,000 so they were definitely attracting a lot of folks but there are just two two behemoths that attract that number but it went on the research piece to show that wealth transference Tech Florida to Texas was substantially higher um in wealth transference now I know a lot of that's going down to the Miami Palm Beach area so a lot of Rich folks going there in the financial industry but it was orders of magnitude more maybe four or five times but the key part of the piece was it then compared the land mass the number of square miles and it was I think about 250 or 60,000 in Texas compared to about 65,000 in Florida so the same amount of people coming each year actually a ton more wealth coming than to Texas and maybe 1/4 or 1 F the the amount of land and we all know that a lot of that land in the southern part of the state with the Everglades is not developable so you know when we talk about you know when Bob talks about why do all of the retailers the restaurants the stores why when you go to these retail conferences all they want to talk about is Florida and then they really want to talk about I4 there there um there were a couple of specific things in the code though that I I think should be looked at and building these sorts of places is counterintuitive for example we find that the most the bit the most popular busy squares in public spaces look too small on every plan and I had some plans I didn't bring them here but every time we do a plan and when this when the park looks like it's the right size it's always way too big like Seaside if you've seen Seaside that Park oh now everybody agrees was too big when a park looks too small It's usually the right size and the the the the larger things from the commercial point of view that I've seen uh is primarily the block size the uh the block sizes that we originally wrote in the form based code assume that people the retail would be fully supported by people that could walk or ride their bike there which is not workable I mean people are actually going to drive here and go to the restaurant so the one thing from my point of view is that we need flexibility on the Block sizes so that they can be large enough to accommodate people driving to the town center not every block there should be some areas in which it's very tight know Charleston Palm Beach oala type scale where you don't have much parking but there's other areas where we need to have the blocks larger for example I believe the codes here are for blocks to be 400 what's a two acres three acres two or three acres I think the code is which I I developed this code to make blocks two or three acres the Jefferson code Jeffers Thomas Jefferson's blocks were 300 ft by 300 ft when uh we looked at places like winter park their blocks is their blocks are four times that size their blocks are 5 Acres with a half mile circumference we could not build Winter Park today with these form-based codes from the 90s because you have a large block so one thing that would help us would be if we could have flexibility to accommodate blocks today and then we like to design the blocks with the streets and edges so so someday they can be turned into City walkable blocks so we use the parking lots we put the parking lots that are necessary today the sizes but we designed it so those parking lots can be turned into full city blocks with housing and Retail and shops on them it's just a form of land banking that allows us to build retail that is realistic because we can't do retail with parking structures today the so the other thing so a big thing from my point of view is we need a we need flexibility to have the tight blocks in certain areas that are going to be just walkable but in other areas like in Winter Park where you have a 5 acre block Winter Park has four 5 acre blocks which in this code would have to be broke broke down into two two two acre lots it just doesn't work the other then is the are the parks and squares in the Town Center we are going to propose a square which will be about a half acre in size which may seem small but it's one where we we want people to be compact we want people to see each other and to have the buzz so there's a couple that we weren't going to get real technical today but there are a number of things that we need your help with we need the planning staff help to learn how to accommodate these modern demands to meet your values and your goals they can be done I I do this all over the world they can be done but it can't necessarily be done on the day that we open it's this is a 100-year town and it'll grow and it shouldn't be textbook perfect I mean we we built we planned towns that are just textbook perfect everything in my book is built and they're boring because they're I mean there's some around here you know there's some theme parks they're just boring and the places that people love um you know are a little weird you know the sidewalks a little too narrow one spot you know you have a couple of buildings that aren't that good to look at a couple of signs that are too small or too big but that's what gives it a place people love and you can't do that by going by my old cods you just can't I mean and because of that um a lot of the places that were built under my code now I'm going back and they've failed and the banks are hiring me to go back and to figure out you know what what's wrong and uh it's always the same you know we need to we need to accommodate a you know a Whole Foods qu size place we really need do need a place where public could go we really do need to put parking lots in people really do want to drive and park nearby and so the reason we called this the new urbanism back in the 90s is that it's the best of urbanism but it's for the new Lifestyles and realities of today so we really do need your help so can let me ask you a question like on 50 where I think bumby wherever where you have a Whole Foods and that whole strip I mean I've driven through all of that it seems very crowded and parking is always an issue there right um I've yet to go into Whole Foods because the parking lot's always full and there's no alternative to park anywhere so at Wild Oaks what is it that you want to do a smaller parking lot or what is it that our form based code says that you can't do that you want to do especially in an area like what I'm talking about you're trying to bring a strip right of of retail smaller um it's and you're right not everybody wants to walk to the store or they still want to drive whether it's a block or two blocks I've learned that here in Florida even if you can walk they still want to take their car to it so thank you and i' I've traveled to Winter Park and I haven't visited a lot of the bakeries or the stores because when you get to the parking lot it's completely full and so I can't find another parking spot that's within a walking distance without feeling like I have to walk you know across the busy road or I have to park in the uh in in in the strip malls and I'm not shopping at the strip mall but I want to be able to go to that particular store so walk me through that thank you that that's that's spot on to what we find is that um some codes I can't address it here but some codes put maximum numbers of parking spaces or they manipulate where they can go so statistically you may have enough par parking spaces for the restaurants and such but they're in such odd places that you really don't so you know on paper it makes sense to do that but when you've got three kids in your stroller in your basket and you're going to carry 200 pounds of groceries out you really do need to be able to safely get that in there and so that's what we need that's what the kind of flexibility we need I mean if we go I'm not going to name names but right now I'm helping a really popular grocer coming to the Lakewood area this area they want to come here uh they have requirements you know like a a gourmet grocer or a really great uh men's or women's clothing store they will say Joe we love this area it's our Dream demographic but we really do have to have parking in the front and that means your block is going to be bigger than the code allows and Joe's team can say okay we can do that but we'll do it over a phase per you know there's ways of making it work but just you know just you know I mean just you know they're taking it out of my book and saying okay this is the way it's got to be it just doesn't work I mean you know we made a mistake we made the best of every city in one b and we we forgot the parts that aren't the best parts so there's things about we we don't want to get into detail now but there's things about the block side from my point of view are the number one thing you couldn't build Winter Park today because the blocks are 5 Acres now they used to be Jefferson blocks they used to be half that size but that street got turned into a parking lot because after World War II people really started driving to go to the stores so um I don't think we want to get detailed but there's certain something block sizes the placements a lot of cities put the maximum number of parking now they say you can only have so much parking and uh can I suggest something I I obviously we're not going to boil the ocean tonight but can we kind of structure these or group these things into logical categories and have you all prioritize them because when I think about what I've heard tonight you know I naturally go to the density one because I know that's where our residents are going to have the most concern right and so you kind of group things under density that can include adding like the town homes into certain districts the story Heights of buildings could be floor area ratios what have you but things that really Drive density or how how these developments sit on the property Form and Function um that would be kind of the aesthetic kind of stuff or the block sizes things like that um there's some administrative stuff in there you know what thresholds meet the test of having to go to the Planning Commission for certain deviations so on and so forth and then the fourth would be really word smithing there's some word smithing stuff in there that's really not what I would deem super critical like you used a a study before too like right now people would have heartburn if you just went and said hey 10 stories is what we want as our Max versus what's currently within the code but there's studies that would then support the idea that the higher the development the fewer amount of people in terms of daily vehicle counts that come in and out of that particular property so it's not necessarily High stories high density equals exponential growth in traffic because there studies to dispute that so for me it's more about those logical groupings and within each of those groupings what's the most what's the highest priority because again I go back to the one of the first things that you presented in here related to the cafes some parts of our code if you read it it says and we encourage pedestrian interaction I.E through outdoor cafes so it's you know there's some conflicts maybe in the code and that's maybe just a function of how staff would interpret it maybe they interpret it in the spirit of what you're trying to accomplish um but if you could prioritize those things I think that would be super helpful versus trying to go Page by Page and seeing how all these things fit I couldn't agree more I think that um I like to refer to that maybe as an issues list where we take you know four or five categories and then we put seven or eight bullet points in each of those four or five categories and then we can have a much more logical discussion as opposed to a markup of1 pages with um with red lines that are difficult to get our arms around so I think that's a great suggestion commissioner and we're happy to do that um I um am happy to keep you know going tonight but I know we're sort of sitting between everyone having supper and um this being some fairly um dense stuff so if um maybe we want to have one last question or so no we're we're GNA we're gonna go through get commission member mock you want to got a question or two yes sir I read through the the packet overover 114 15 pages and and the one thing that that I picked up from that and then your presentations tonight especially these two gentlemen here the vision that you all have and your expertise from years having written something and and then get to go back and and and re-evaluate what you wrote and see people do exactly what you say and now you're sitting here saying it was boring I can tell you whether anyone whoever's in favor of this or oh you know development you know I want to be in the country I can tell you one thing for certain irregardless across the board and this has kind of been mention no one wants to see this fail you know you don't want this built and it be boring and only 50% come and occupy those um I know You' traveled the world you've obviously got I'm sure a million pictures that you could show you know of of things and um I've been fortunate to have traveled to some cities where I sit down and when I walk through this Central area which is heavily um utilized I mean you talk about certain places and they go oh go here go to go to this street go to these three streets right you know that type of thing and as I look at the photographs that you had this evening several of them I'm like oh my goodness that's the same place where I was that's the same place where I was that that's where I went I would go back there again why would I go back there again because it was an enjoyable experience um did I like every store no but I love just walking down the street just being able to casually walk through there and have that good time so um I would say you know you've brought on some very high-powered expertise and I you know sitting on the planning Council I I wouldn't want to necessarily at this point stand in your way because I can tell you I don't have that experience I can sit back and I can go wow that was okay I don't really want to go back there again but I really would love to go back here again and to have that be successful I'm not suggesting height of buildings and you know occupany and that type of thing but to have the flexibility if you need something that's 400t long and you want another one that's 675 ft long and one that this then I would suggest at this point in time in the world that we live in we really seriously consider how we put those things together because having something fail and now like you came in and you know hitney bows granted we don't have much of that anymore but to have the ability over a hundredy year period of time to have Flex have breathability and flex in that project that's what makes that BL and the last thing that I'll say is when I look at some of those photographs and you tell me the people that are saying I4 I4 I4 close to I4 um that's a vision and and to drive those people um I was in Salt Lake City and went to a place that's very similar to what looks here you were mentioning the grocery store needing parking in the front they actually had that in conjunction that it was a very large parking lot to walk across and I walked from this very unque closed in cool place and I walked over to this parking lot that allowed parking in front this place was bustling there was business it was people it was it was successful so I would certainly support that thank you sir commission member Ryan you have some concerns about the 30 acre pension Pond call there's Hove water table low in that area hi Kevin Robertson with kimley horn yeah the water table is over 20 ft in most of the areas of of this okay because what happened with Bo developer wanted to build a dayare and to use part thetion build on top of build their daycare area and it made the Breen on compensate for have you take that into consideration we've played with the height like the overall height um and then the just like where we're also got a lot of elevation difference we've maxed out the yeah we've maxed it out obviously we don't need a we we wouldn't make it 30 Acres if we could get by with 20 yeah so yeah there's other options in the future of maybe filling some of that in and doing an underground system in a parking lot or there there is some flexibility like that in the future for you parking gares is there any planned in that area parking garages eventually there will be eventually as as Bob talks about the ph9 60 blind restaurant yes and that feels pretty safe that parking lot at the one that's beside 60 Vine it's well lit and that you can pull in and out fairly easily they're not everyone's favorite there's actually nobody who is a fan of those parking garages but there are things when we get to building them that aesthetically were're concerned about making them look nice from the outside and well L and safe feeling yes they also have you have a choice but also um I have no problem with the increase in that need before all the building go on that way it can be safe I mean your attorney has told the Planning Commission several times that you have agreed to U bring up gold J Road City that correct we are actually um contributing to Saddler Fe and um Kelly Park Road and golden gem has been the one that we've been we've been more on the sidelines because of the county and City's relationship on golden gem so I'm that's the one that I'm least conversent on you're turning ital the same stand well we that is correct we've made a a substantial contribution towards it um to um allow for its wi with property so we've given property to um contribute to those [Music] stand commissioner Ryan that that's a that's a project that Pam is working on with Orange County um for for those standards we got to stick with we got to stick with this uh project [Music] attorney it's incredibly important to us that's why we're contributing that property come on yeah I was going to say that we've had two different agreements with the city for transportation approvals that were dedications of money and right of way in order for those extensions of Effie and Saddler and then improvements to be made on West Kelly and then one of those agreements does contemplate the ability for allocation of funds to go towards golden gem so that was always part of the programming so we dedicated everything that we could we can't take right of way across the street that's needed we can't take over for county-owned parts of golden gem until the city and the county figure that out so that was one of the discussions that we had was that we were doing everything that the city had asked to bring it up to standard told me you would bring upy road that property City stand correct everything fronting our property we can't do anything else not on our property so we don't have offsite current obligations under our development agreement but everything fronting our property yes is brought up to City RightWay standards the sidewalk withd standards and those connectivity and access points correct I would like to do that bu Road Park Road the city standard and build g Road you know right now we've got quick um je sum subdivision on J Road name we've got a couple different subdivisions on golden gem but that again we we we need we need to concentrate on this project this this item right now and we'll we'll delve into the roads in different time need to stay on subject sorry as no only brought up that project because they're already Selling Houses there yep and I can appreciate the need for there to be proper infrastructure in place to support these projects and I think one of the comments that were made was where the kids going to school and then there was a comment about how you know higher height of buildings doesn't necessarily correlate to more trips on the road and actually it doesn't necessarily correlate to more kids in schools either Orange County I was on the impact fee Advisory board when they changed how much was charged for high-rise versus non-h highrise high-rise definitionally is seven stories and above more than 70 units in a building and it is a $37 charge for a high-rise unit that gets built and if it is a non- high-rise unit it is a $5,900 charge because of the impacts that are generated so the higher the building statistically the less children actually are going to schools in those buildings so some of the things that you'll see in actually some of the densest comment uh most dense commentary we made in the um document itself had to do with those development bonuses and transfers of development rights how can we capture that allowable uh density and intensity I mean we have in some of our areas literally 2 million square feet of allowable non-residential uses I me never can get built right um and we're not trying to cram 2 million square feet plus 1,900 units on that one part of our plan um but we aren't able to capture you know even a slice of that because of the way some of the code prohibitions wouldn't allow us to take some density and move it to a different character District that doesn't even use it at all in our plan so it's not as if we're asking for density that folks never contemplated their being it's density that would have happened like Joe said stranded density that cannot be captured as on part of our master planned employment center for example and yet we can't use it anywhere else in our overall Community which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for trying to get that dense development in these areas rather than having urban sprawl just keep happening right if we're going to concentrate it let's concentrate it let's get those building Heights high enough so that we can get the folks in get the retailers in decrease the amount of average daily vehicle trips generated reduce the number of school AG children who are statistically likely to be in those buildings and be able to have some of those design elements that make it a truly successful project long term so I appreciate the suggestion of let's categorize some of it because it's a lot to chew when you read or scroll through it at least um so we can get that back in in a fashion that that makes perhaps some more logical sense of what we're asking again we just didn't want to give a 200 Page justification statement plus 140 pages of Redline if this consensus was going to be we're not interested and we would have just ended it there if that was the case but we we certainly appreciate the dialogue and the willingness to let us submit something else all right commissioner Howard I uh I appreciate your opening comments because uh it's kind of like the the elephant in a room everybody knows it's there but everybody wants to ignore it uh you kind of soften the tone that's good uh that you created an environment a platform of discussion where people can share and partner in a common goal uh I don't need to say a lot because a lot of the comments were made here tonight I agree with and it just boils down to desired State you know you hear desire State all the time well a papka had a desire state State when they created the form based code back when based on what we thought the desired State now is the day you have a different desired state but we both have the same objective the desired state that would be a successful uh project that will live on for years and years and years so uh I I agree with that and I um I fully support the uh City working with you uh closely with that add to div mind that we have agree that we are the same team we have the same desired State you guys are coming to the party with expertise on how to make that happen because that's what we want we want people to come to a Popa saying there's this place called Wild Oaks you got to go there thank you sir just like they'll say I got to go to Winter Park yes thank you or winter G you get it I do that's what we want so I appreciate what you what you're doing and I support uh this city working very closely with your team to make this thing happen thank you sir all right well I think we let's anybody from the public wish we do have it was a public comment come on up and then we'll wrap it up Rogers back at 7 West Main Street um first of all I just want to say thank you to you guys for um going on to this working on to this amazing project um I just saw it in the uh I think it was the apka voice um had friends kind of call me talking about it and I was like excited so whatever if these pictures that we saw here can come to apaca I think they' be like fabulous because right now we have to go to these destinations that you guys reference so um if this can be the beacon to where people start to travel our Direction I think it makes it best for everybody um I know it's been a big thing about Fifth Street but I think this will blow the doors off of that and just kind of open our area up to something that we've all thought that would happen um and there's been a lot of great discussion so I know I'm super excited to see it even thinking about bonding this community so if it can happen is you know I just I I think it's just great so I just want to add that thank you okay anybody else from the public okay well guess we'll close up I I think sounds like from all of the I the commission Commissioners and and the planning Commissioners that um I think we all want this to be successful I think from a the public perspective I think we'd all also agree that I think people are okay with higher densities as long as they get the amenities that they they want so I think there's that and then obviously infrastructure has been mentioned by quite a few people so I think infrastructure has to be and and we've got the you know the the mechanism to do that and then second is you know people okay with more homes as long as as they get amenities that that comes with that and so it's you know if if we get I think we get real heavy residential and very few you know restaurants and shopping then people will be less apt to support the project but I mean I know you got you got a great team and you know we we're excited about you know the the potential and that uh that you bring to a Popkin we U I think we all look forward to seeing how this works out and so I think to commissioner Becker's point you know was let's kind of break it down into some different silos I I would like y'all just get rid of a lot of this a lot of this red lines just that's silly I mean let's let be honest so get rid of all the silly stuff let's get down to the things that are important to you yes sir that we can all kind of you know bring back in a in a the next you know I guess it would be next time be at planning is there a timeline that you need um that that is kind of we'll have to submit a formal application right yeah but I mean it's like you've got you've got retailers you've got people say you know we need this to change if we're coming or I mean so are we what kind of time frame would you like that to be get all the way through to us I mean obviously you got some steps to go but can we talk about that and come back to you on that question very very important question especially if we're going to use commissioner Becker's framework so um I think we'll need to huddle internally okay and then come back with a a well thought through answer awesome all right well thanks everybody for coming out thank you everyone thank you all