##VIDEO ID:zrMWkHd0zis## call to order the meeting for Austin City Planning and Zoning commission for Wednesday August 14th 2024 two items on the agenda tonight both open public hearings but before we get to those we've got to approve the minutes from our last meeting which was Tuesday July 9th do any of the Commissioners have any changes or additions to those minutes as written not could I please get a motion in a second to approve those minutes is written so moved and I'll second thank you I have a motion from commissioner Lindberg and a second from commissioner swensson to approve the minutes from July 9th as written all in favor of the motion please say I I I all opposed say no motion carries 60 and those minutes are approved first item is an open public hearing for 1300 28th Street Southwest we have an appeal for the 12 and 1/2 foot setback on a 6 foot privacy fence in the sidey yard Holly yes as noted the petitioners asking to move their existing fence uh up to the property line um which would be within that 12 and a half foot corner side sidey yard setback that's required in an R1 residential district um the property is uh in a residential neighborhood uh the proposed fencing would be a 6 tall private privacy fence and is located on a corner lot uh the fence will be located in the rear side yard uh there are no drives or intersections in the area of the fence and the fence would not affect visibility and here's the drawing that the petitioner provided just showing the existing fence here and then moving it to this corner of the house and then shifting it North uh to the property line and then there's a large uh public RightWay here um between their property line and the street I believe it looks like the petitioners are here if you have any questions for them uh let me pull up the oh so this shows the existing fence here and as shown on their drawing it would start here and then go along the property line and this is kind of the larger neighborhood area where they are located kind of near the outskirts of our city and limits this is hilers for reference over [Music] here I have one question if you could come up please to the podium and then state your name and your address for the record Megan shikita L shikita it's 1300 28th Street Southwest okay thank you uh on the South Side there's also an existing what is it three- foot chain link right now yeah yeah are you putting the 6ot privacy fence on that South Line as well yeah I'm trying to close the whole house okay so it's it goes your the neighbor has one there as well right an existing wooden one foot and the space between those two will be what right up against each other that much yeah so what do you do with that space in between who takes care of that we do I guess uh like cuz we have two fences there right now so we just clean whatever we just start to clean that spot right there ourselves okay and know yeah I went and looked at it I drove by it I didn't see any issues visibil ility wise or anything like that Commissioners anybody else got anything a question is is there a a RightWay there for the city yeah this blue highlighted line is their property line okay and the area between the street and that blue line I the street okay so your they want to go up to the property line the current property line not all the way over to the no we're not affecting any okay so just imagine if the over the next 50 years uh the city continues its complete streets program and gets to this neighborhood there will be a sidewalk between that Aqua line and the edge of the road with a Boulevard just like you see in other neighborhoods so this fence you know just imagine the potentiality for there to be a sidewalk there okay Y and it would be right up against the fence because the first that's 15 ft from that blue line to the curb and the first 10 ft is the util easement and then the next five would be sidewalk goes in let me pull up their application I believe it was a little shy of right up to the property line but let me pull that up again one foot short yeah see it says requesting to extend current uh fencing 13 ft towards the road on the North so that's from where it is now oops [Applause] 13 ft would be about here looks like it's about well it's hard to measure exactly on here but you said it would be about a foot from the property line yeah anything else Commissioners nothing anything else yeah uh if I could just ask a couple questions um do you have the property Corner stake so you know where the property line is to ensure that you're not out in the public right away with the proposed fence I think it is like a metal post that is showing where the property goes got to go straight and then that's where we just fall in the the same uh thing is system so to the I think it's like a little metal bar at the end of the road or is we just want to ensure that it's the homeowner's responsibility to make sure that the fence goes in on your property and not out in the public right of way and then secondly Holly I don't know if you had an opportunity to look at any of the original plats but a lot of times in these new developments there is a 10 foot utility easement behind the right of way on the private property for underground utility construction um yeah we could we the Planning Commission if they decided to approve could approve with the condition that they get you know get approval from the utilities if there is a if there is a utility uh easement I guess I don't know that if there is or isn't in that spot and where is that 10 ft St it's on the property generally fall inside the property lines really okay yes and that's for that's an underground easement yes I'm looking it up is it running North and South it would be north and south on 28th Street and also east west on 12th Avenue okay um the person asking questions is Steven Lang our city engineer here and here we not sure about the backline oh we have never as I can recollect addressed that is that something we need to put in conditions or something well the fence installer should do a locator call and if there's anything there but it is good to be aware most older areas the the utility easements are on the on the back property line right but Mr Lang's experience on that sort of thing is far better than mine so if he believes there's a likelihood there's a utility eement there that's important you can't build on the utility eement not excuse me sorry to interrupt again I'm not seeing one on our GIS map i' have to go back and double check the actual plat to see if there was an easement platted originally for that property I got a question you guys talking about the electric stuff on top cuz we uh we like a month ago or two we we wondering where's all the electric in case if you guys approve it and they mark it and they was normally was in the front of the house and then the size where we're not going to be using that spot that's what they mark where's the line is electric stuff there wasn't nothing near inside the fence okay so you had a locate done then uh yeah we have located a month ago they came in Market with little flags and then it's not in inside the fence where we're trying to put it at we want to make sure that we're not cutting any electric too so that's why we try to ask for it and they came in Mark so it wasn't nothing close to it um this would be a recommendation to city council uh to approve deny or approve with conditions okay any other questions Commissioners anybody ready to make a motion try to decide how that would I mean you almost have to consider the utilities right can you ignore that so can you make a conditional if yeah you can if it's approved by use that as a condition yeah absolutely there's still some question about the utility piece so is that something we have to put in a condition for and how would we do that would Hur anything to put one in and how would you want that they if you decided to approve well deny obviously that wouldn't be an issue but if you decided to approve with conditions it could be something like uh it's approved as long as they're not in the utility easement area approved condition upon confirming that the that there are no utility easements something like that not complicated something Happ mhm y make a motion to approve with that condition okay I'll second all right we have a motion from commissioner Bartley and a second from commissioner swensson to recommend the council to approve the request with under the condition that there are no conflicts with the utility easement for the location of the fence any further discussion if not we'll go ahead and vote all in favor of the motion please say I I I oppose no motion carries 60 request is approved thank you thank you um so this will go to uh our city council for a final decision based on the planning commission's recommendation on Monday so we'll know Monday if you want to uh connect after that thank you thank thank you all right our next item is also an open public hearing we have an application for conditional use permit for a proposed 12 lot planned unit development Miss Wallace yeah these are not things that we see very commonly um there are a few steps to approving uh this type of subdivision uh the petitioner is Matt Ralph uh doing business as advanced building movers of Rochester uh out of Hayfield Minnesota uh the current zoning in this area is R1 single family residential the surrounding land uses are also single family residential and it is currently used uh as a single family residential lot um the applicable ordinances are primarily uh section 11.09 one uh regarding plan unit developments and section 11.08 eight conditional use permits um because there's so many factors involved I just put the actual ordinances in your materials and then just made comments throughout the ordinances for your reference so I'm just going to go through the ordinance uh as I had uh shared with you um the uh so 11.0 91 plan unit development uh goes through uh different uh areas such as the purpose um which is to encourage more creative and efficient development of land uh than is possible under more restrictive application of zoning requirements ments um while at the same time meeting the standards and purposes of the comprehensive plan and preserving the health health safety and Welfare of the citizens under B uh it notes that it's allowed uh to allow mixture of residential units in an integrated and well-planned area um and then I made a note uh that we should consider how the design of this proposed um common interest Community uh best serves the residents and would fit in the area as it evolves from rural to city services including storm water roads utilities lighting uh which would be a typical City subdivision uh so that it doesn't become a barrier to or negatively impact future development or the proposed development or existing uh homes C uh to ensure concentration of open space into more usable areas and preservation of uh Natural Area natural and scenic areas uh there are no known areas of preservation in that particular uh section uh and then list some permitted uses uh within a plan unit development dwelling units in detached clustered semi- detached attached or multi-storage structures or combinations thereof um this proposed use uh is permitted as a planed unit development um the conditional use permit uh is a required and that's another section that we will go through separately um the planned unit and then under subdivision 3 it indicates that the plan unit development must be consistent with the city's comprehensive plan uh the future land use plan shows in our comprehensive plan shows that this area is designated as suburban low density neighborhood which allows two to five units per acre here the total area is approximately 5 Acres with the proposed 12 units or 2.4 units per acre and uh I'll just zoom down to what that kind of looks like actually the uh do you have you have uh I have tons of stuff yeah look like yeah looks like you have some uh maybe some things that would be easy to look at from a proposed I do uh subdivision perspective do you have a can I see what you have there maybe um this is Les Conway who is is uh here on behalf of the uh developer and he's brought some drawings they are in the packet but they're more engineering type drawings what we're proposing is this and then um I'll I'll present right now the rest of this and then you can and then here I have all of the uh uh Parcels I have a larger aerial view that kind of addresses most of your comment oh okay sure and then I also have the uh preliminary PL okay okay so this is uh a part of those documents the proposed preliminary plat that shows uh shows a road here um and then this area it's hard to see my little cursor here but the darker outlined area is the area where this uh subdivision would uh be developed um it has this r that's highlighted in yellow which is an area where the utilities uh has required a uh easement if this is the final design um and then there's several uh Lots drawn out here uh and then the rest of this area would be common area uh that would be managed by an HOA I'm just going to go back up here to where I was um so the uh applicant must uh apply for and seek a again a approval of a conditional use permit uh following the procedural steps set forth in the planed unit development ordinance um so they are required to present uh the following exhibits uh as part of their conditional use application and approval of uh a development plan so they need to provide a preliminary development plan uh a preliminary plat so the development plan to me is uh how they will actually develop that uh subdivision so what fa how the phases would be uh uh done over time uh and then the preliminary plat which was just pointed out with necessary documentation as required under subdivision regulations or all or that portion of the project to be platted um which we had as partially provided uh the proposed PUD could harmonize uh let's see wait I skipped one I did Skip One here the track does consist of multiple Parcels that will need to be combined into one tax parcel as condition of approval um right now they are just individual Lots um the should be an explanation of the character and need for the planned unit development uh the this was acquired uh as a vacant has vacant and uninhabitable homes acquired through tax forfeiture and private sale uh verbally uh when we talked there was a desire expressed to add manufactured a manufactured home park however the developer did not have enough acreage to do a manufactured home park the city requires 10 acres um and instead uh they proposed to do a plan unit development organized as a common interest Community um the we don't actually allow manufactured homes uh in the city unless they're in a manufactured home park so they would be required uh to do minimum uh modular homes which are off-site constructed subject to the building code or just a regular stick built home uh they are required to have a statement of proposed financing of the plan unit development which was not provided uh there was some discussion about uh potentially getting affordable housing subsidy if they used modular homes um they're required to have a statement of present ownership which was included in the packet uh the general and then homes in the surrounding area uh they need to have a general indication of the expected schedule of development including sequential phasing and time schedules which was not provided um the map a map indicating proposed land uses including housing units and types uh vehicular and pedestrian circulation in Open Spaces which was partially provided uh pedestrian access and vehicle parking wasn't clear uh but the housing unit units again would be modular stick built uh let's see a full description on how government services would be provided to the development including sanitary sewer storm water systems streets and other Public Utilities uh Austin utilities did provide an by provide easement information the applicant does not plan to provide City water but proposes an alternate water system uh the uses uh should not have an undo or adverse impact on the reasonable enjoyment of neighboring properties and uh would not be detrimental to the potential surrounding uses I did receive a call from uh we see received contacts from at least three neighbors and I see can you raise your hand if you're a neighbor so there are yeah there are a few people here in addition to the people that called uh and they mostly expressed that they just wanted to learn more about the project uh each phase of the proposed development as uh it is proposed to be completed must be of sufficient size composition and Arrangement that it is uh its construction marketing and operation of dwelling units and common Open Spaces are balanced and coordinated uh we do not again have a phase plan or financial information at this time and it's not clear how the project will be constructed or completed and what Financial Risk there might be to the community or neighborhood uh if it was not completed uh the plan unit development cannot create an excessive burden on public facilities and utilities uh it's that's unclear at this point but electric gas and sanitary sewer are readily available uh City water and uh roads would require additional planning uh the proposed total development must be designed in a manner to form uh desirable and unified environment within its own boundaries uh again questions about accessibility or no this is a different issue uh there are questions about accessibility for fire and off street parking options which goes along with the fire code requirements um there can be the the public hearings for the conditional use permit and preliminary plaque could be done separately but here they are combined there's just a lot of procedural information in this area of the ordinance uh the this talks about the property con conance and uh in this instance they are intending to uh operate as a a common interest Community with proposed Homeowner Association bylaws so the the land will be owned and operated as an HOA uh but individual homes could be rented or or owned uh let's see location size shape size character of the common open space must be suitable for the plan development this property again will have one owner uh the proposed lots are slightly larger than minimum size required in the city with a minimum of 60 ft of Frontage the common open space appears to be mostly uh to provide yards for each housing unit uh with an added area for storm water retention uh but I did not see any other amenities shown uh other things just to that I highlighted to note uh where there is more than one property served from the same water service line a shut off valve must be located in such a way that each unit service may be shut off by the city in addition to the normally supplied shut off at the street which would be hard to do if it's a privately owned system and then we go into the conditional use criteria uh which requires that the use will be sufficiently compatible which is similar to the things in the the Pud ordinance as well but the use will be compatible uh sufficiently compatible or separated by distance or screening from adjacent residentially zoned or used land so that existing homes will not be depreciated in value and there will be no deterrence to development of vacant land um what that might look like for another housing uh development it can be flexible um keep in mind that the cup or the conditional use permit could apply to any kind of development it could be commercial or other in this instance it's residential um under part G the use will not cause any traffic Hazard or condens uh congestion uh adequate utilities access roads drainage and other necessary facilities have been or will be provided I just have a note here the city has not permitted any new subdivisions without City Water um maybe some examples of where the system may be used locally and how the Lots might tie into City water at some point should be provided there was some discussion about uh using existing Wells and that's the uh system that they're proposing uh that each well would feed four to six homes with the HOA providing maintenance uh and some of that was in an email that was attached to your packet uh there are no proposed water related agreements providing provided in their HOA bylaws that they uh sent and that was noted that the Minnesota Department of Health that deals with Wells and Department of Labor and Industry with plumbing would be involved um uh additionally conditions with the city council considers necessary to protect the best interest of the surrounding area or the community as a whole uh may allow Council to impose additional standards and requirements um uh increasing required lot size or yard Dimensions here they meet our current requirements um controlling the location and number of vehicle access points uh we believe that needs to be discussed further with our engineering department regarding Street and parking related issues um as well as the street width uh and increasing uh number of off required off street parking spaces um no lighting is our signs are proposed at this point uh no screening landscaping or other facilities to protect adjacent or nearby property are proposed uh yards are proposed as open space there are some things that are not applicable here uh there is a boundary survey that was included uh the we have verified that the owner uh of the proposed development uh does own the parcels involved in this proposal and then there's just some additional information about what will happen next based on uh any of the decisions or discussions that happen here tonight um the Planning Commission will make a recommendation to city council to approve deny or approve with conditions a conditional use permit which is typical to have conditions a preliminary PL and preliminary development plan if the Planning Commission recommends approval of the cup the applicant will file a final development plan and final plat with any recommended modifications uh to the plat and development plan within 90 days if the final plat and final development are approved the Planning and Zoning administrator will issue the cup conditional use permit uh our city engineer made on that second approval after the 90 days or within 90 days final yeah so right now you're just looking at preliminary right the final plat and final development plan approved then you issue my understanding is that just goes back to the counil yeah okay we only see this once yeah and then yeah and I would just incorporate whatever the requirements were uh approved so if there's any modifications we would require that those be included okay um our city engineer uh commented that new developments such as this would require compon all the components of a development agreement uh which includes but not limited to uh new and existing roadways designed to meet City standards with curb and gutter pedestrian access routes including sidewalks and or Trails all Associated Public Utilities such as sewer gas Water and Electric site grading and storm water management plan and other ancillary items that we have in our standard development agreement I didn't actually include the standard development agreement in this packet which maybe I should have but um our fire chief also commented he included uh fire code requirements here um that are specific about uh that access road shell extend to within 150 ft of all portions of a facility and all portions of exterior walls of the first story of a building as measured by an approved Route Around the exterior of the building or facility dead end roads longer than 150 ft designed to meet the requirements above shall have uh an approved turnaround and then apparatus roads have to be a minimum of 20 ft in width and Port up to 75,000 lb uh roads with apparatus roads with a hydrant shall be 26 ft in width roads 20 to 26 ft in width shall be marked on both sides with fire lane signs indicating no parking uh roads more than 26 ft but less than 32 ft wide shall be marked on one side I have to go back and look and see what the road widths are exactly here but 24 okay yep okay so right now with the the way it's uh designed or proposed uh there would have to be no parking yeah on both sides are on the street and then he noted that this is not necessarily a complete list of fire code requirements and that uh there should be some uh revised plans or further discussion on that as well and then there are several attachments um this attachment shows in our city maybe can talk a little bit about that as well but this shows kind of what could be uh planned for future roads um should that area be further developed or subdivided presumably far into the future but uh making sure that we have a uh logical plan in place um as uh areas do become more developed and this shows just an overlay of this particular proposed subdivision uh over where future streets might go uh drainage area summary as noted and then this is the the packet for the proposed uh development including a number of items and uh the applicant can go over these with you to some degree a this just has a little more detail I can this just notes all the property owners right now in this area there's a storm water plan included and then this was uh something the applicant sent me to kind of describe the alternative water uh system that they were proposing and then this just was an email between myself and Les Conway uh the engineer that the applicant hired to do these uh drawings and planning for him and then these are the bylaws that were included and then just the list of uh properties where notices were sent and that's all I have do you have any questions of me or do you want to hear from the applicant well there's a number of the items listed that say no information or not complete yet or whatever so are we actually looking to approve this or just I mean it could potentially be continued I guess or it could be denied well are you satisfied that everything you need is here no I don't feel like everything was uh provided um he the applicant may have brought things to the meeting as well okay um we just we had started this I think in May and uh there were some additional things that were required and it got put off and then I realized that we also needed to do a conditional use permit so asked them to also apply for the cup so that was done in July and then we kind of went back and forth gathering information until I think July 29th was the last submitt I got and then of course that came right up to the uh notices that we had to send out for this meeting so that it could get on the August agenda and then we had because we finally had as much as we could get we had a staff meeting and out of that came some additional uh suggestions and the applicant didn't have time I think to address all of those things okay so the public hearing is open now any questions for Holly from the Commissioners no then I guess it is you'd like to come up Mr Conway just state your name and address please for the record my name is Les Conway I'm with WC Massie I'm a senior engineer with um our engineering firm and on behalf of Matt Ral the owner and developer I'm here so should I give my handouts to you to hand out or can I hand them out um are you comfortable yeah okay I made 15 copies so I think I got I'll yeah I'll take a copy Mr Conway maybe before we get down into the Weeds on some of the details and stuff I would just like to know I'm a little confused why just up front why why a plan development why not just plat the property and develop the 12 Lots um two separate reasons is that we want the road to be private we want the utilities to be private the planned Urban Development allows us the uh flexibility to um develop the property outside of a traditional um outside of a traditional um alinary plat and final plat okay um got take one of these you have the rest of those so what ends up happening is is that whenever you're going to uh take a property like this and as you saw um Holly did a nice job of kind of summarizing the whole thing we satisfy all the requirements of R1 housing with dens density ratio and setbacks and those particular items but we have the opportunity to actually develop a a planned Community Development uh that I will get into as far as the details go but paved Road fenced in utilities um onsite uh storm water that will be managed by the homeowners association and the homeowners association is what allows us to maintain the quality of the development versus actually doing what you're suggesting is that we just plat it and sell those properties we want to actually improve the quality of development in this neighborhood we want property values to go up so that people think it's worth it and kind of the biggest thing that I want to address here tonight was kind of the layout that engineering came back with and how it all of these properties were condemned they were bought in forfeiture right now if someone was to come into that area and want to um develop or for instance buy a property and build a house it's not really an economic or it's not really a favorable place if you want to develop it we believe that the Pud with the cup and actually proposing this community actually increases property values and actually makes for a favorable purchase of one of our properties and it actually would increase development in the area that's kind of the short version okay so will the homes they'll be owned rented what so in a in a in a planned Urban Development everything is private um when you come back to this particular drawing there is a single lot on each in that that would actually be platted you can purchase those or lease them but you would come in and you would put what we're referring to as modular homes or um single slab the common phrase today is um uh patio home where everything is on the same level it produces affordable housing it produces a community that we would believe that people would want to move into because it is controlled and it has a lot of amenities to it and it would actually allow us to control all of that area around there and not turn it into a mobile home park so having said that um if I could address the council sure or the commission um we're expecting that we want a homeowners association we want private roads we want private utilities um we want uh finston area paved Road and we really want to work with the city of Austin so that we can get our cup approved because it was highlighted in the document that she looked that uh Holly went through that if we fail here we have to wait an entire year before we can come back and we don't really want to wait a year we would like to work with the city of Austin and come up with a satisfactory res solution and we also want to work with um staff of the City of Austin I think right now I think I kind of feel having done this and basically I've dealt with with Holly but I believe that I believe I believe that we can work with City Engineering Austin Public Utilities we can work with folks and actually come up with a solution where we address um a lot of the concerns and a lot of the questions we produced a preliminary plat we produced a preliminary construction plan set we've tried to address a lot of the things so that you can get a feel for what we're trying to do but I believe tonight is my opportunity to talk with you and indicate that we want to move forward and you can certainly put conditions on our approval but I don't believe that there's really that many conditions that we need if you actually recognize what we're trying to do um the biggest item is is that I gave you a set of 11 by 17s and if you look at she actually pulled it up here but if you look at the last two sheets um which was kind of a future layout that was provided back to us and we don't believe this is the direction that we want to go um I think that what we have is is an area that right now is pretty um pretty well well the six slots that Matt Ralph bought were forfeiture they they they'll be demolished they'll be taken out of the way and when you look at the property around here um the planned Community Development what we're proposing to do is develop this Southeast quadrant about 6 AC five plus acres into a community that would be fenced in have paved roads have utilities um have plenty of open space for uh folks and it would allow uh development in this area that would actually spur or the development would be spurred by the fact that um we're bringing in new homes new roadways new utilities and actually develop veloping the property there's a couple of properties up here on the um northeast corner uh owner is last name is the same but the name the first names are a little different right now there's not really a lot of development on those um the development that I just called out here actually has a roadway coming right through probably a $500,000 piece of property and this piece of property and these are actually nice homes this area along here is actually developed pretty nicely the area to the north are long single properties that are um that I don't really see this type of a development occurring what I do see and I've provided this with you I've provided you the zoning map if you look at the one on the wall you kind of cut off at the park and we're north of the park where that green square is up there and so what what you have is is that these two little squares right here are the areas that we're referring to yep so you have a industrial Corridor along I actually have Maps I know this is incredible oh there it is so you have an industrial Corridor running through here you have a a public utility over here and a a substation here we're talking about this area here this is UN annexed this property is annexed and then you got Watson which is industrial zoned as well then you have the big park down here you've actually designated this area out here for uh single family residential this is single family residential and this has already been developed as single family residential these areas that have also been annexed are single family residential they're larger rural settings they don't have sidewalk they don't have um storm water culverts they use mostly culverts and drainage to that effect and their gravel roads we believe that that's the way to actually start developing this area because all of these are gravel roads this is gravel and we believe that we'll pave our area with a new road but for right now 28th still needs work on it and whether or not water gets brought down that road or not but I believe that we can service our area with the utilities that are there um for what we're trying to do is there sewer out there right now there is a sewer line that runs along 28th Street and ends at the end of the road and you'd be connecting to that we would like to coordinate private sanitary to feed all of our stuff and make a single connection into uh the public sewer that's on 28th okay then I'd imagine that the gravel road will need to be updated correct so then adjacent right now the gravel road runs here and we would be glad glad to pave this but right now um there is no way to actually know what we would do for curb or gutter there's I mean that's that's down the roadways in a rural setting sure I'm just curious as to if it would ever be a requirement for that road to be paved or Cur finished I guess and I believe we're talking down the road a ways right but when that happens the neighboring property owners are going to be assessed so there's a concern there you know and I and I get the property value thing but not everybody's excited about property values going up because that comes with additional assessment costs right understand so I'm just trying to get the if if I was looking if from my years of engineering if I was looking at the Gravel Road mhm down the way um I think based on the development that's up in this area north of here I believe it would be a rural section with still ditches if it was paved I don't think you want to pave it until you can actually bring water down there and I believe the rest of the way you know bringing it all the way around it comes all the way around and comes back this direction um I think something just needs to happen there and I believe this is the start of it yeah and I understand that it's just um you know once you set these things in motion the other property owners may be left with a financial burden um you know any sort of development in my opinion there's a cost involved with that you would still have the opportunity to assess the HOA for any developments along 20 sure sure okay everybody would pay their fair share going up and down from 11th all the way over to 14th right if it ever decided to go that way and I believe that's a ways down the road I think right now this area up here is perfect for a rural setting okay but we want to do paved roads in ours just because we want to make it nice so I've kind of pointed out the zoning map I've let you actually see what's happen actually happening out there on the zoning map itself I believe that there is plenty of room to continue single family residential in this area which would be south of the area that we're talking about also over to the east I believe you already have established an industrial Corridor along 11th plus you have the railroad um you have the park farther down to the South but I believe that um any future development in this area would still at least in the short term be Rural Development with ditches along the road it could be paved there'd be culverts and whatever utilities are available on 11th could actually start to come into uh the east or come from the West to the east for development so right now we do have sanitary sewer there um we want to develop that Southeast quadrant which has 11th Avenue [Applause] 11th Avenue 28th 31st and 14th and we want to develop the southeast coordinate the quadrant there and we want it to be a planned Urban Development um um for this particular project so there were quite a few uh comments that were highlighted in the documents that Holly provided and what we're looking at is first of all the area has gone into Decay for several years which is why the properties were available to get picked up there's properties along 31st or 30th that are well-developed nice homes nice size Lots there's properties along 11th that are also that way and we don't expect those to change but what we do believe needs to change is the development along 28th and right now we've picked up six of those nine lots and we want to make those six Lots into a single development that provides affordable housing now we use that phrase quite a bit and affordable housing is an incredible push in the United States today and it's an incredible push in the state of Minnesota now the difference what we're looking at is we're looking at modular homes and we are looking at slab on grade houses which are basically 12 to 1600 square ft with a front garage they call them patio homes uh a modular home which comes in the difference between a modular home and a um manufactured home are the construction practices that are used for constructing it in the 8 1/2 by 11 handout that I gave you I actually provided this to the City of Austin and the modular home the substantial difference in a modular home is the fact that it's allowed you can do VA FHA USDA plus regular commercial financing for a mortgage that's not allowed NE necessarily for a manufactured home we're doing this as an HOA we want these properties to sell if they don't sell then they they they might be leased but the ideal situation would be the development here putting homes on there that people can come in as a first-time home buyer and purchase for $200 to $250,000 which is substantially different than what a regular home would cost on the market today they're upwards of $400,000 for a regular stick B stick built home so these have tremendous opportunities for firsttime home buyers and to get people in there for affordable housing you heard Holly make reference that if we go down this route we actually are accessible to different options with not only the City of Austin but also the state of Minnesota to help us with uh with with what we want to do um we're seeing a tremendous it it it's a it's a really good model for people who have the opportunity to actually develop it so you said you you got six Lots is that are we going to develop it into more than six Lots so um based on the highlights that were there yeah we're going to take those six Lots we're going to Plat it as a single property and then we're going to put easements on it and lay everything out and it'll be a planned Urban Development with an HOA contract to govern it but it's 12 homes 12 homes okay so you mentioned that they could be leased if they're not purchased how do you keep the the lease or the rent down to keep them affordable so um let's suppose let's suppose that um you um put in all the utilities and you build the roadway and now you have these 12 lots that have been platted so to get interest in the owner could come in put a modular home on one and he could sell it or lease it so the lease price would be whatever he does for 20 or 30 years generally we want to keep it at 20 years so now that person is paying the homeowner association plus the lease for whatever that is but the intention here is is to actually develop these 12 locations and actually sell them and have people bring in their own option for the property does that answer that question or was I right and how do you know approximately how much the HOA fees are going to be because you're talking about a $200,000 home potentially and then the HOA fees how much would that be and they would have to pay their own insurance and correct for homeowners Insurance uh that is correct and the HOA fees would generally be between let's say $175 and $275 a month which actually amateurz over the 12 units would actually um cover um a a chunk of the initial construction cost but it would also cover a portion of that would go to the ongoing maintenance but I'm homeowners the home owner fees would be somewhere in the 200 250 range and You' put in a a community well no so right now there's six Wells on the property um I was going to get to that whenever I got to the utilities yeah but your question is pretty straightforward again Holly mentioned we didn't provide a schedule because we didn't know where we were going yet but we would look this winter we've already done the um asbestos um uh inspection on the properties we already are ready to take out a demolition permit we would actually do the de de uh demolition this winter and then we would need to take those six Wells have a well driller come in you actually have to test the flow rate the draw down rate on the wells to determine how many services you can actually get off of it the document that she showed in there is a pretty common manifold system with a with a pressure r regulator in a tank where you can actually run it there and then once we knew which Wells were viable we would lay it out on the final plat for um water service depending on how we have to connect to those Wells but right now we have six Wells to start with I'm pretty sure we're going to get by with only four okay there's six on there right now that seem to be more than functioning so we provided a preliminary plat and a preliminary construction plan to answer your question question Mr Lutz I believe that what I'm looking for tonight is for us to agree that our layout is a better layout than what the city provided and the city engineer came back and told us that this is actually a better layout and you can approve it with conditions and we can finalize the construction plans but we believe that this is a very uh viable opportunity or this is a very viable layout that allows us to utilize the land bring in some areas where we can get affordable housing handle storm water take care of utilities have lots of open space we have open space here and here Holly mentioned that we don't really have a specific on the open areas but um an HOA isn't going to want to put up a a playground set or anything I mean the liability is incredible but you still have open areas that everybody would know that are open areas that kids can play you can walk your dog the HOA would take care of making sure you pick up your dog mess and would govern the Govern the property schedule would be as I said demolition this winter and construction next year um for the utilities and the roadway the government services as uh Holly mentioned off of 28th gas electric and sanitary um Austin utility is requested did I provide it I think I did well here's the deal nope it's right here hold on so Austin utilities said they wanted a 15ot easement on both sides but I I don't I don't think I don't think they were really clear on what we were doing with a private roadway because you don't really need an easement around the roadway because you're going to have a roadway there that's going to be an easement anyways the entire roadway and right now we show it as 24 ft we can put extras extra um an extra side on it that would be an what's what what we would call in surveying would be a um utility ility and drainage easement overlay so the road is private the roadway would be handled under the development agreement and in the conditions of the HOA but this area would actually be an easement shown on the final plat where utilities would go so they asked for 15 ft on both sides of the road that's more like what you'd ask for if you thought it was a right of way but whatever we have to do here we can work with Austin Public Utilities and make sure that we have plenty of room for we got to have the sanitary sewer in there electric uh low voltage gas have to be in there and then in the final plat we would actually show the final design for the water the water is its own issue um Holly brought it up we'd have to go to the Department of Labor and Industry and we would have to go to the Department of Health even though in this particular case they're the same thing but we would have a private water distribution system that would have to be approved by the state um for us to feed all of those houses and then there was another comment she had highlighted um each one of them would have an individual shut off in that easement um for Access uh to it that's the easiest way I knowed to take care of that what if you don't receive approval like from the state you mentioned on the water um what's the plan then does you do halt the project or do you at that point you need to connect to city or you going to try to make the wells um no um I believe that I I don't I don't really see a condition there um I've done quite a few manufactured home facilities I've done um uh different applications um and my submitt to the Department of Labor and Industry really just requires time um believe it or not I just got two weeks ago I got a I got a I got a July approval on a project I submitted in April they just take forever these days but they're the ones that do it and as long as I comply with all of the plumbing code I don't really see an issue um materials joints fixtures fittings um I believe it can all get called out um for approval but Holly's right Department of Labor and Industry has the final say on this on the plumbing permit that they're the ones that make it happen um I already mentioned we have to test the wells um Mr Conway I just have one question um to follow up on the water um there right now we don't have anything in the bylaws that uh reference the how the water would be handled between the HOA and the residents but you had mentioned something about that so that would still have to be flushed out in the byw so this is a this is a very interesting question and I think the person that we're going to drive crazy with this is going to be your Fire Marshall because if I'm going to put a hydrant on the property then under normal conditions I would have to have a public utility easement to that hydrant and the water line that goes to that hydrant needs to be public so I'm not sure how exactly we have to work that out but I have to work that out with City engineering and with the fire department because if I am required right now I don't I don't believe that a hydrant is required on on on a PUD in this rural setting however if I do have to put a hydrant in there I'm going to have to run one up each Road and that should satisfy what the Fire Marshall is saying but how we how we how we build that water line coming off of a private well for access to the Fire Marshall that's going to be that might be a maintenance agreement that might be something that that's a little bit crazy but uh the Fire Marshall is going to have to figure it out and City engineering is going to have to tell me how to write it but I'm assuming I can write an agreement for maintenance where they can maintain their hydrant and keep that water line there and we can use a water well it's just generally you don't see a lot of you don't see a lot of hydrant on water wells you just don't see a lot of them so if he requires us to do it I think we got enough Wells on site but I don't know how we're going to write the agreement but that's what we would be faced with um I also was thinking of the actual bylaws that you included uh you made a good point it's another item I will say this in the bylaws it was a generic order a lot of things have to be specified but all of the uh you know roadway maintenance has to be specified all of the utility maintenance has to be specified and if we do decide to put a public water line um in there off of a private well well we got to write an agreement to solve that problem there's no doubt about it so um going through these items I believe that right now where I am with uh the commission tonight is I believe that that this application is actually a very good application for what we want to do in the Southeast quadrant of uh Ramsey Park I believe believe that uh we have an opportunity here to um um initiate a future growth not only to the north on some of those properties but also going off to the West um down the road if something was required you could certainly say it was required but I believe that any Trail or sidewalk pedestrian access actually Lies over on 11th I believe in this uh Community Development uh walking up and down the street uh a rural setting uh ditches access free Open Spaces all the way around kind of handles um what that part of the zoning code um requires I don't want to do curban gutter because kban gutter is and and I don't believe that any of the properties to the North or over to the West actually have that and maybe somebody's just going to tell me Well we changed our ordinance and now you have to do something but none of these have sidewalks um this area right here if we're developing this you're going to come over here the hardest part is actually getting somebody down to this trail head or across the way into the park I believe that we offer open spaces and park park access well you're Drive you're you're you got kids walking and pedaling down lth I don't know I don't know any other way to deal with that one um you have uh these areas over here but the stuff that's actually been developed in the newer stuff um doesn't have curban gutter doesn't have sidewalk uses rural sections and it's a very nice um application um and development um that we've seen in this area in the future as development starts to move north there's a lot more things that are going to happen a lot more utility design up that County Road um this area um this entire area there's a lot of things that are going to happen there but I don't I guess for where I'm starting right now I believe that we're 10 to 15 maybe even 20 years down the road unless somebody actually buys this property and starts to do something um that's where I am on um on that particular item can I ask a question on that sure um why wouldn't you just put kerb and gutter in some of those expectations that eventually could be in place wouldn't it be more cost effective to do it now than 10 to 15 years down the road when those property owners who purchase it that aren't expecting that now all of a sudden are having to pay for that themselves right or would the HOA absorb that no so the biggest problem in a rural setting with carbon gutter is it raises everything and just puts a whammy in your storm water treatment so right [Applause] now when you look at that drawing everything surface drains and we have a storm water Pond that actually discharges at a level that can use the the surrounding Culvert system for final discharge that comes down into this farmfield so to put curb and gutter and actually build something at curb and gutter now all of a sudden you need catch basins now all of a sudden you need four feet of depth well if you put 4 ft of depth on this road right here you you can't feed the pond if that makes sense to you I mean you're right now you're surface draining into the pond and then it bounces is up about 2 or 3 ft and then it discharges well now all of a sudden if I have to put pipe in here and discharge into that storm water everything's already surcharged every pipe in this network is already 3 ft below water which means all the pipes hold water so if there was any future development around here particularly up here to the north if there's any future development up here or this property down here starts to get developed there's an option there but right now it's a really difficult hydrology issue a hydrology problem to actually get pipe in the ground and have it discharge into a pond on a relatively flat sight and when I say flat this this Contour that runs around this road is at 12:21 this is at 1220 1219 which is this drainage ditch this discharge right out here in that Culvert where the water's supposed to go is at 1218 so that means I have to fill up my pond and then discharge the water out of the pond into that Culver so right now the site is so flat that there's not really an an a really good viable option to put pipe in there with carbon gutter could still put carbon gutter in there I guess and it could just surface drain um certainly an option but um we're calling out for a 24t driveway uh putting the signs there no parking either side and making sure that there's plenty of access two parking spaces on every one of those lots is doable but uh the site is so flat that we really run into trouble if we start to put something underground under that roadway and it's it's not overcome you know I mean you can overcome things but right now it surface drains to that pond nicely and then it bounces up 2 or 3 ft and then it discharges off of the deal and we'll put it in that Culver if that helps you uh let's see I've given you the properties I've given you all the items I hope this actually helps you and then I gave you the memorandum that I wrote um why we want to do this um financing the development agreement will require that we produce um a letter of credit for the estimated construction costs I don't actually know what bank the owner will use or how he'll do it but he'll use a letter of credit for 100 or 110% whatever the City of Austin requires that will guarantee the construction cost for the property so will you just go in and build 12 homes or are you just going to one at a time so we'll go in and put in all of the utilities yeah the Lots first of all will be for sale people can come in and actually do it and it'll be approved for modular homes or slab on grade and with the utilities the cost of the property and the extra cost to actually come in there we're going after a particular um we're going after a particular clientele who can come in and have a $250,000 um excuse me um Bank approval and purchase either a new um slab on grade home a patio home or bring in a modular home and connect all the utilities to it put in the foundations and attach the the um utilities to the home so first of all they'd be for sale okay to inspire sales maybe one or two actually get put in there for sale or lease but I think once things start to happen out in this neck of the woods for those costs I think we'll see something happen rather quickly in 2 to four years for all 12 of those properties it's just the way the market is right now okay uh do you have any other questions of me and I hope I've answered anybody in the in the gallery here and either one of you you put up that drawing that showed the blue utility easements on it you have it there I do I'm trying to understand if I if I choose to be an owner in this planned unit development planned Urban Development and I going to own number eight what do I own so you have have a um based on the final plat you'll have a legal description for that property for just what is shown as8 is 72 feet by that is correct yeah and then you will have utilities to your property line and then um who who owns everything that's not in a numbered rectangle the HOA is responsible for all the maintenance and they would actually construct it all and the maintenance agreement would be in the HOA for maintaining those utilities and keeping them operational okay so you're are you intending to do this as a common interest community so the way your zoning code is written common interest Community would only apply to a manufactured home product the way I read it well common interest Community uh establishes ownership of the common elements of a development and also establishes the the private ownership of the rectangles so that those can be deeded separately and transacted on separately but there is a recorded document that says this entity owns all of the common interests and what their obligations are Visa V maintenance up updating repairs water uh you know systems all of the things that we're talking about tonight would normally be in a common interest Community if you have a just a standard HOA that means everything in the neighborhood is privately owned in different boxes but there's an agreement amongst all the owners to do some things for whether it's lawn mowing or shoveling or or or what have you or maybe just restrict you from doing things your house has to be a certain color it has to have a certain type of landscaping so in this one that's what I why I was asking the questions there are going to be commonly owned elements of this development that are not owned if I own number eight I own number eight but I own a interest in the common parts right you want to answer that one yeah it sounds like that I mean um that's what I was understanding how it would be organized and I did make that statement a few times but we do have common interest communities in Austin like downtown where the artwork Center is and the bakery that's a common interest community so I may have misunderstood you at the beginning because when you and I talked Holly you indicated that the only place that we had a cic available to us was under a manufactured home Community the initial yeah that must have been a misunderstanding the initial document that I turned into you back in May was actually the cic pl and we already we already have it drawn but it was your direction towards me that we should go towards the Pud and I'm good either way PUD is a zoning yeah they're two different category the cic is a different way to organize a commonly owned property so they're two different things to me and your recommendation sir yeah so a a planned Urban Development district is a plan for a piece of land that modifies or violates various zoning Provisions or or whatnot because we need to do that in order to accomplish a goal that can't otherwise be done whether it's an HR a HOA Arrangement where everything's privately owned and you just have an agreement in an HOA agreement amongst the owners to do certain things or common interest Community where there are common interests that are owned separately from the privately owned units is a Development question for for you on how you're organizing it it's not I mean it doesn't make a big difference to us from a zoning perspective except it helps me understand whether this is viable and whether or not if you sell to these units and never sell another one what we're left with uh or who is it that when the homeowners don't pay their dues we go to to say your your commonly owned assets are not being maintained properly it helps me understand what your long-term vision is on how you want to structure it so either in the cic or in the HOA the owner developer would own all of the all of the all of the Lots until he sells them so in this case there's 12 Lots until he sells lot seven he would have the he would have the majority say in the HOA and in the HOA document it would actually spell out that the HOA is responsible based on whatever fees you pay to actually maintain the private utilities to maintain the road maintain the common space and maintain the storm water P you know this developer have legal council that that maybe could could clarify whether the cic is happening or not because I think we're all understanding each other but I'm not sure that we're precisely meeting up on what we're talking about and and I don't want to get too deeply into it but what I was looking at in this document which is why I asked for it is there's a very specific rectangle there and then there's space so that would be commonly owned y then there's space that's commonly owned then there's your water retention pond that's commonly owned there's space between the front of the lot that you buy and the utility easement and the so I just I wanted to better understand because I looked at the bylaws and as Holly noted bylaws don't really say much or make any promises or anything it's just like you know the homeowners will decide stuff in the future but this is a lot of responsibility for commonly owned sites and my concern is you have successful cic's we have those yes in town and then you have those that got off the ground and had one unit built and then failed and then you know years later a new developer comes in and we have to try to figure out how to extract it back out of what it what it was created to be cuz not enough people bought it and and and this is not a positive nor negative towards the cic thing but it is something to contemplate that when these things get developed originally the dream is in four years there'll be all of these will be covered with houses and that's a success and the developer made money and and it worked out maybe but sometimes it ends up that they build the one model and then nothing happens and then 10 years from now they're abandoning it because it didn't work and somebody else is coming Mr Byam is right there there're two different processes the cic would have a cic plat which is actually part of a declaration which gets filed and it goes straight through Mau County and Mau County assigns um the cic number to it and the Declaration then has a set of bylaws that go with it this is a PUD which is a common usage and we don't we we we we like the private road we aren't AB budding anything other than the entrances to public right of way and we can write in the bylaws how it actually gets addressed and the owner developer owns everything until there's enough assets sold that somebody else actually has seven votes versus his five either one is fine and I originally submitted the cic plat and it sounded like we didn't want to go that route but I already have the cic plat drawn and um the only difference believe it or not is is that Ma it goes straight through Mau County technically I'm not submitting a preliminary plat to you guys right the cic plat is to record so that on title we know who owns what the plats we're dealing with are does the will the roads cause any issues or problems that we can address before they're constructed instead of 10 years from now and we have to address them at a less comfortable time it does the does the water system and the easements and the abilities and all those things all the things we think of in any other plat context that's why we're doing the plats here the cic is an overlay that just helps me understand who will own this 10 years from now who will win win the decis decision comes that it's no longer going to be a water retention Pond but somehow it's going to be cbon gutter with who actually will own that your question and and with a cic it's recorded somebody owns it there's responsibility in theory um but it helps me just contemplate that from a legal standpoint I think it's important eventually to hear from the city been here he doesn't normally attend want be so um right now where I'm at is I'd like you to is he here C oh that's I haven't met you before Les Conway nice to meet you you don't have to stay you guys nice job staying awake thanks so the surveying question is a good one I'm I'm I'm a I'm I'm good with either application you have a clear-cut zoning code that spells out the Pud and the bylaws of the HOA can be clearly written to satisfy the City attorney for most of these items because all the utilities are private and we're only connecting um sanitary sewer the cic has its own benefits however the cic doesn't provide preliminary and final plats it simply provides a cic plat that gets recorded with the Declarations and gets approved by the County Surveyor different different process and as long as we're clear on it I'm I'm open either way because I already submitted a cic and all I have to do is regenerated according to this but to me they're not competing processes they're different things cic just defines who owns this long term the Pud may have a cic may not have and it's common interest Community we keep using cic but I don't want to lose anybody common interest Community it may have that as an aspect it may not have that as an aspect you could have designed this with 12 Lots where every single square inch of this is privately owned by a different homeowner and then they have an HOA that deals with common stuff like like the water system or whatever that's going to all be shared you could have a well agreement you could have a water agreement everybody though would individually own chunks a cic says we all own chunks but it doesn't cover the whole thing then all the open space and all the road and all that that's all owned titled in a different name so the two things are different a cic plat is to Define what is common and what is going to be individual this plat that we're dealing with is a PUD plat that we're looking at from the the stand Point does it cause problem for fire does it cause problem for police does it cause problem with traffic does it cause problem with utilities totally different issues your interest is a are any of those problems present B is this viable and will it get completed and does it have a chance of getting filled because you don't approve these things if they're very likely to die which is which is why for instance the letter of credit says I've got the money to complete this this is my budget for building the road I've got the money to complete this cuz you don't want half completed and then the money runs out and now you're sitting there with a property with half a road so there's there's that's your environment the county recorder's process is we just need somebody later to be able to look and say who owns number seven and if they own number seven do they own a 72t by 100t rectangle or do they own something else totally separate the County's process does not really impact you except it helps me understand is this viable who are the players where's this going going forward on what the vision is so I don't want to suggest that we're switching from a PUD to a cic what I'm saying is in considering the Pud one of the things is who owns stuff later and a cic will Define who owns stuff that's all okay do you have you want me to leave now you have any sub to that do you have any questions for our city engineer or for the public who is attending I'm curious as if there's any I mean or open it up to the public I guess after yeah that's yeah does anyone have any more questions before we open it up for public comment Oh I thought I was public okay cool cool thank you that's true well he's the developer he's the applicant I don't I don't really count all right anybody here first because you're the most important take it as anybody here that wants to speak come on up uh just state your name and address for the record kmer uh 1302 30th Avenue Northeast okay uh the 12 12 Lots that's quarter acre lots that's kind of really narrowing that down and there each each of his existing lots are about half acres then you're going to cut them then you're going to put another Access Road in between them and then he's talking about future development that really Cuts our property limits out there I've lived out there for 40 something years and uh only reason those became vacant was because it pushed all the PE lowincome people out of there in the first place when we got annexed and I don't see people moving in quarter acre lots for 250 Grand that's you know plus where there's talk about recession coming now I mean during this presidential stuff that's going on they're talking that we may be in a full-blown recession is it going to get finished is this a pipe dream uh is it going to change our water table out there because the lots that this is proposed on are the lowest Lots out there and how many of those Wells their Sandpoint do we know of their Sandpoint or what their depth is what they're going to do to the rest of our wells out there if you're drawn you know 12 versus the six that we're there originally you know you're doubling everything uh I'm just concerned about the whole development there were were too many uh unanswered questions so far as far as uh conditional use I almost heard a commercial use in there in the beginning when she was reading through some of that so is this strictly going to be right residential yeah I was just trying to clar I was just trying to clarify that for many uses we can use a conditional use permit and some of those are commercial this one is residential yeah but this does not allow commercial I I'm just saying okay that's no I'm just saying that major concerns there are things there were things in the ordinance that kind of referenced something that might be more commercial than residential and I misunderstood the part where you were going through that and then you you said the use but then it left it open on a commercial no no no no I didn't mean that at all I didn't quite catch that when that was going through but just concerns in general and a general consensus of the people who have lived out there for all the past 40 years I got neighbors that we've been neighbors for 40 some years we enjoy our Lots out there we're not looking right out and staring into someone else's house we got a little room to breathe and stuff and then half acre lots they're they're putting houses on quarter acre lots and we're restricted to 1,200 square fet of out buildings and we have Halfacre Lots I mean I have a backyard sh I could put another house on it if I could afford you know afford to develop it we're kind of dividing this in a point where you know how's it going to end like you guys like you mention later is this going to be a finished product or is it a pipe dream of someone else you know I I just don't know if it's the land to do this with is what I'm saying that I just kind of wanted to State a little bit of my objection till I hear a more def find final plan thank you all right thank you you anybody else a question if they're going to put roads through there and Dave's wife Becky if they even begin to our water table is so high now if they develop where he's talking about and those 12 plots and then they want to put a raised Road in there and there's no water there's no sewer there's no water he's going to flood everybody else out I have a problem with that he's going to dump all the water onto the other side of the block St that's that's my issue my main issue is that we don't we have homeowners we don't have renters we have one rental and it has been purely a problem with from drugs to the police patrolling twice a day now um to dogs that don't owners don't follow the leash laws Etc that all comes with renters we're not used to that out there like my husband said we've been there for some time the neighbors all know each other I mean that there's many many issues with this Stephen what's your take on the the storm water management out there I have one question for Mr Conway have you done a wet have you completed a wetland delineation for this area may I speak from here come on up this is recorded so it's good to get your voice right plus Conway WC Massi so I provided the on the Swip um the soil survey map shows only one Legend of hydric soils in the southwest corner and those soils were looked at uh go up to the next one nope nope down down down right there that line in the southwest corner is the only hydric soil um Horizon that's out there and that's actually High ground and we took a preliminary look at it and we did not find any um we we did not find um anything that required Mau County to delineate um the rest of the property is non hydric soils and what we actually see in the Southeast corner and the northeast corner is simply poor culverts that have allowed water to uh Pond and it doesn't drain many of the many of the coverts are actually blocked uh but right now preliminarily we only have that Southeast southwest corner that we would actually uh get a hold of uh Tim russik in Mau County and um do we we do the whole property but those are the only ones we're concerned with okay but you haven't completed a wetland delineation and submitted that to the tap through mo County yet we have not okay um the concern that the homeowners raise about high water table that this area is very common for high water um um the properties directly to the north of this area um there are some undeveloped Parcels that are low-lying ground and generally wet condition um so that's why I asked about any Wetland delineation across these Parcels that are proposed to be developed um if I could just expand on a few other things all right absolutely so so many obstacle I wrote down some notes Here many obstacles that were have been discussed tonight like drainage Municipal Water curban gutter sidewalks you know generally a community develops from from within and develops out the issue with the concern with this development that's brought about many of these issues and concerns is that it's disconnected from the general uh recognized development areas of Austin and so when you leap frog out into a new area you create something that's disconnected from Municipal Water it's disconnected from Storm sewer and and it it's on a gravel road um we have maybe five gravel roads in Austin um so it's very unique to have a development adjacent to a gravel road what the the the road is gravel currently because of very low vehicle usage as this this development occurs will this generate dust and complaints from other homeowners that live on that Gravel Road and so it it functions now fine will it function well as a Gravel Road in the future um so um let's see what else one of the few gravel roads uh additional traffic may impact the the gravel road this development um which has been talked about a couple different times is very similar to Austin Acres Austin Acres was an area like this that was annexed city sewer was extended out to it and over a period of time it developed and filled in to a point now where we are looking at we have walkers on narrow roadways we have um different Urban Development issues in an rural developed area and planning maybe wasn't uh um maybe there was a push for let's take any development we can and and we'll deal with roads and infrastructure in the future um commissioner Swenson was kind of asking that question about do you set this up now so that it's set up properly for the future and planners and Engineers 10 20 years down the road aren't dealing with it because it was set up properly early on in the process and that's where we're at with Austin acres and I think Austin Acres would be a very similar uh development as in as this as compared with this neighborhood um the drawings that the engineering department provided were just a a tool to give you a visual of what this area could look like there's nothing set in stone with where those roads could be placed if this was a more urban kban gutter City development it was just to give you an idea of of what this area would look like if it were connected to the greater Port developed portions of the city um a a big con a big concern I would say that that would be making this area stand out and could cause us issues down the road with future development elsewhere in the community is that it is uncommon it's rare it's some may it may even be non-existent to allow a development to occur with Wells um water distribution Municipal Water um is to my knowledge Almost 100% required in a development so that is a very unique thing that this would kind of be a standout you know if you look at like a Nature's Ridge Development by the Nature Center where is water if if they were if Nature's Ridge was to come in and propose a development with residential Wells and say well you know you let this one go up by Ramsay Park you know why won't you let mine go just so it's just floating that out there that that is a big concern and he mentioned uh Mr Conway mentioned how uh the fire protection and those issues that go along with Wells um just exacerbate that issue of not having Municipal Water in this area um to answer Mr Conway's question water Municipal Water is uh available at 11th Street uh those were the notes that I made I believe and be happy to answer any other questions that come along uh with regard to uh along the same lines it's going to be he's proposing private sewer that then ties into the city system on on is it 28th I think what how does how does that work have we done that before uh yeah I can think of an are different areas where uh private sewer extensions uh were extended into areas and then service lines were uh developed off from that for individual connections and then ultimately it tied into a city gravity system yes that is more that is that happens and then do you build that how do you sure so pays for that on the private side well the developer would be responsible for the extension of all of the utilities and then there would be a cost where they connect to the city sewer M there would be a lump sum hookup fee for connecting into our system a one-time hookup fee then how are they build going forward then how are they metered I guess sure so if they have Municipal Water um everybody that has Municipal Water has a water meter and that's how your sewer bill is determined if this would be allowed to move forward with Wells each home would need to put a meter at their home to meter the water usage at their home that would then determine their sewer bill so I'm not sure I quite agree with the city engineer I've done several uh subdivisions I'm doing one in Manville right now that has uh private Wells because the water isn't there but I I I I would be okay if water is actually at 11th extend water all the way down to my road to the road but I sure don't want to be charged a whack fee if I'm building the water all the way down there there cuz if I'm already paying for the whack if I'm already paying for the water extension down there I am already given the city the benefit of it and so whatever that whack fee is certainly doable but it may not be that big of a deal bringing water all the way down there and not having to worry about the wells certainly doable but it would be a double whammy on the development if you not only have to put the water in to everybody's benefit because I don't get any of the the the developer doesn't get any of the benefit having water down 28th Street there is no way to actually come back and say hey the people along that road now have to pay me I'm just talking as a developer have to pay me for ex actually extending that you would not only get those whack charges but then you would have get whack charges for 12 Parcels in there I think if an agreement could be made I certainly I certainly see where I could see actually extending the water down 28th so it is public water big one would be that we get the benefit of not getting charged on the charges because we're actually giving the city that's going to be I believe it's 670 ft of water M that we're putting in that you would actually and it it you would have the opportunity to get the the charges on the other part is is that I I I just can't emphasize that a PUD is designed so that we can actually keep things private and maintain all of those utilities the development here is in a rural setting there's County roads all over or there's gravel roads all to the north those were all put in so somebody knows that this is a rural setting but I would gladly work with the city engineer on this and I believe the only other question is is that the City attorney and the commission needs to tell me whether or not I have to use a cic declaration and plat or if I can keep it as a PUD I don't think it's my role to give you personal legal advice that's why I asked if the developer had an attorney because that's a choice the developer would make it's not a choice that I'm going to force you to do one way or another your plat would appear that you intend to use a cic and when I look at it it looks like a plat that was developed for a cic you are absolutely correct and we were given different direction and so if we change that direction I'm perfectly fine with it I wasn't I wasn't discussing with you the organization of the the subdivision but just the the plan to do a manufactured home park had certain requirements that weren't met from a zoning perspective so that's what I that's what I was talking about when when I said it wouldn't work as a manufactured home park but not as I know we C PL before plan Mission I think it's it's important because it's been brought up a number of times that there are gravel roads here and further north to to recall those developments happened when those areas were completely outside the jurisdiction of the City of Austin those gravel roads were constructed and and permitted or whatever happened in their history long before they were annexed into the City of Austin and one of the things we run into trouble with often is when we have to Annex and some of this probably had to do with sanitary sewer systems but when we're forced to Annex in areas to save them from sanitary sewer problems for instance we inherit those gravel roads and we inherit those underbuilt roads and those developments that weren't completed and the owners come and they're very upset that there's now going to be a new road constructed up to you know code and that they're going to be assessed for that even though their existing road is deteriorating and has never been maintained properly and we run into a difficult political thing where people say but I bought my house and I paid for all this and why am I having to pay for it again and it's because when it was developed out in the county they didn't have any standards and it was it was underbuilt and fire trucks can't operate on them and you know you've seen that's happened not saying it's going to happen here but that's the explanation for why areas north of here here are underdeveloped it's not because we thought it would be great to have a rural development 2 miles outside of Austin and then treat it like it was inside of Austin it was developed out there without our oversight and then because of sewer problems or other issues we annexed in parts and then assumed those problems that's true here and it's and it's true further north it's not as if we at some point said gravel roads are perfectly fine here that was not a decision the City of Austin never made when was this annexed does anyone remember 2010 some of this is Growing Pains of taking something is developed in in the Y Township and trying to incorporate and that's what engineer Lang was saying is normally we see the new development right next to town and the the process of the roads and everything El is logical and it makes sense we don't often see Lea frogged out this far boom we have an island of residential development that's now being redeveloped that was developed at the time and it was in the township and now we're having to answer questions how does it fit how does this fit into Austin so these are unique because of that history so are are all of the houses out in that area connected the sanitary sewer to the to our sewer system but not not everybody has water when we Annex the area as our City attorney discuss there we it was annexed to solve uh uh failing septic systems so we extended gravity sanitary sewer to the entire area uh water was not elected to be extended at that time due to cost all right um we've been all over the map tonight so help me out here is there something we need to decide tonight and if so could you please explain to me what it is well on on a PUD this is this follows a very similar pattern to a plat so you have the preliminary review where you look at it conceptually you look at the feedback from the various departments and agencies who've provided feedback so fire engineering um you know sometimes in other places it's Telecom and all sorts of feedback but you look at that and you say does this make is this something that we think should get off the ground is this something that makes sense to us if so what do we need to see in a final plat to make this actually work and so then you send it forward with if you think it should get off the ground preliminary approval conditioned upon this information that information change this you you know add that and then it goes to the second meeting later where they bring back with all those things addressed and say Here's the final and that goes to the council and we just review it to say did they meet everything we told them to meet if so then it's a go so tonight it's just does this make sense does this fit are there issues with this that you don't think there are changes to the plan that could be could make it work if so the answer is no if you think this seems to work fine and that this seems to be something we want to pursue then we have the discussion about what do you does the developer need to bring back in a final Mr Byam could you address the 60-day rule as well yeah so on some of these I think the conditional use permit is one of them there's 60 days from the date that's that's that that the application is filed where if you don't act on it it's deemed approved and so I was asking Miss Wallace about when were these things formally you know submitted so that we keep track of that now the developer can agree to extensions of those and and to give us time to do work out the process uh but we have to be mindful of that so if the if the 60 days is going to going to come and and we don't have a final answer then you're almost forced to deny and say you know bring it back um because otherwise if you take no action at all it's deemed it's deemed approved and it's common for a 60-day extension and we would agree to it y thank you so to the extent that that's a problem uh he's agreeable to a 60-day extension so we shouldn't be under the gun so we would be tabling it for 60 days is that the three so this is this is a qu I'm not going to tell you how to answer the the questions if you think it it makes sense and it's something to get off the ground then we discuss what he might need for a final if you feel like there's missing information you need before you can even answer that preliminary question then we continue the hearing to next month and we give them a list of things that we want to see as part of the preliminary you note in Miss Wallace review of what was you know required to be submitted there were a number of items that maybe weren't full fully supplied or answered so it would be fair to say we don't feel like we have the whole package yet there are questions that we still have that haven't been answered to even decide whether we want to move forward on this at all then we would say we'll meet at the next meeting and and get more information on those subjects or if tonight you're ready to say no you can say no or if tonight you're willing to say yes but we need some conditions then we need to talk about what are those conditions that would come back at the final and then correct me if I'm wrong we basically have to address the Pud and then this the conditional use per separate and the conditional use permit is the 60-day thing so we could technically table the Pud get some more information deny the cup so that we wouldn't have to worry about the 60 days come back here get more information we apply for this the conditional use permit they're so intertwined I mean the reason that a conditional use permit is is put on top of a PUD is that the Pud assumes we're doing something that's not normal and so you can approve a pod or you can deny a pod but it's it's one way or the other a conditional use permit says we're going to approve it but we have longterm term conditions and if you violate these long-term conditions we can take all of this back as I stated in the beginning If you deny the cup I can't come back for a year that's want to happen no the cup right in the ordinance it says for the cup if the cup is denied there is a one I can't come back for a year there is a one year it does give us an out potentially if the Planning Commission agrees that there are I guess circumstances that would uh allow it they could they could do it but so sotion be is that we start working towards it and I don't get a denial so I don't have to worry about a yearlong oratorium that would be that would be my preference because we want we want this to work yeah this is the language right here uh let's see no application of a property owner for a conditional use shall be considered by the Planning Commission with a a one within a one-year period following a denial of such a request except the Planning Commission May permit a new application if in its opinion new evidence of a CH or a change in circumstances warrants it that's a stop people from the I want a salvage yard I want a salvage yard I want a salvage yard until they wear you out but it leaves it open where we could yeah yeah yeah if there's some reason why it's a new situation where you might change your mind then you can always allow it speaking for myself and I want to hear what the rest of the Commissioners think too is I based on what I've heard from the director of Public Works and from the resident kratchmer I just don't think we got enough we know enough about what's going on and the details on this thing to approve a plat going forward for sure to to me we definitely need more information and more time and I guess I'd like to hear what all you guys think I agree I think there's a lot of missing information in that huge list of items that Miss Wallace put together but in addition I mean even the Austin fire chief said he needed more time to look at it and then we talked about the 15ot easement from the utility company that we really don't know whether this overlay is going to work or not and that I think is key even on a preliminary plat so I think we I my opinion would be to table this matter get those questions answered before we move forward I I age continue this to the September meeting then I just want to make the language right cuz if you table it then we have to vote to take it off the table but if we continue it then we don't have to redo the notices it'll just be this hearing continuing into next month okay but from Holly from your perspective and from and yours too Stephen is 30 days going to help I mean will we will we be any better off in 30 days well I mean I think it would probably take a little bit longer but I think we could maybe hash out some of the conditions that we were required in order to move towards a final plat if that was the if that was the intention so we could condition things like uh a development agreement with the city uh maybe some agreements with the Austin utilities about what water might look like um more detailed HOA bylaw yeah more detailed um figuring out the cic versus HOA um I think we could get maybe some of those together before the next meeting but yeah it is a rather short time um they are agreeing to a 60-day extension so guess we could continue it again is there some limit to how many times we continue it we just have to meet in order to continue well we can you can continue it to next month and continue it again if you don't have a 60-day rule problem or you can just continue into October if you really feel like there's no way you're going to have what you need by next month and I don't know for the developer then there's 90 days after the preliminary is approved that you have to submit the final and and so that can be a tight time window too so we want to be mindful of maybe the developer actually has additional work to be done if we got close to something though maybe I don't know or maybe maybe we just figure out it's maybe it's not going to work but what do you think uh Stephen as far as timeline thoughts I I think water is a big hangup and it' be I don't I don't know if this is appropriate but would would we get some direction from the commission as to where you fall on the water is is a is a development with Wells something we would pursue as a staff level or is it or would we could we get direction on um you know this needs to be Municipal Water I think that's a to me that's a key piece along with the HOA agreements and all the other things as well the we don't want to bring something back to you if that's if it's a no-go with with Wells or something like that so I think some direction on that would be helpful for staff well I have a question about the water cost if Municipal Water is brought out so how many neighbors would be you know charged and would they be forced to connect at that point if it's there that would be a policy decision by Austin utilities and how they would um fund those communal costs you know to to extend right by homes to get it out to this area do is that are those costs just held by Austin utilities until the existing homes hook up or or they forced a hook up at the time and there's a cost incurred right away um yeah that again that's a that would take some time to work that agreement out if there is direction to go that route with Municipal Water there anybody on the commission that thinks that this is an absolute no goal no matter what they come back with in 30 or 60 days you don't want that developed I don't think that I don't think that no does everyone agree it's at least worth continuing to look at the possibility I just think there's a lot all like every department has that's we coming back to everyone has questions MH and we still don't know you know like said then brought it up you know like they were talking about the size of the lots and you're you're ramming stuff in a small area I'm also so the storm water reservoir Mr con he mentioned if it becomes full it would Purge into the ditches is that did I hear that understand that right so the storm water Pond storm water design is is that you have a deadpol uhuh and so there's always water standing in a pond so you got 3 ft let's say so in a rain event you get bounce so now the water from all from this subdivision flows into the pond p and you bounce so now the water fills up MH now there's a criteria for discharging the water out of the pond that substantially in in in simple terms is that that pond won't create any more of a hazard when the water starts to come out of it than currently exists and there's criteria for the pond design and so when I fill that Pond up in a 10-year event the water bounces up water starts to go out and it's going to follow the normal patterns that water does right now in particular it's going to go underneath that cul um on 14th that's going to follow that ditch and then it's going to go underneath that driveway and it's going to go out into that farm field that's what it does right now and that's just a normal pattern and it's at a rate that it's we're going to we're going to substantially reduce the rate with the B okay imagine all of the water hitting at one time on top of six acres so now all six acres of that water goes someplace well now all six acres of that water goes into a pond it bounces and now only a little bit of the water actually comes out and that's rate control that's what it's called sure so this particular circumstance is that the subdivision drains into the pond and it is rate controlled out of there so that it does no harm so it in essence you don't feel like it would a neighbor's ditch would stay wet longer than normal say um or have standing water well actually by the time we're done with it that whole area if you didn't know this Matt Ralph was in a guess a little bit of a disagreement with your parks and wreck folks cuz they went out there and tried to mow a wet ditch bottom line is by the time we get those culverts replaced and actually improve the drainage it'll actually be substantially better cuz right now most of those culverts out there are plugged that that's just I mean lack of manance nobody's nobody's touched them and what was the beef that the parks in wreck what happened there what's apparently you know we've been doing this since May and um I believe the parks and wreck thought that the weeds along the property line got too high I think there was a complaint that they they got a complaint about long grass and so then they were required to mow it so the point being is is that yeah we want to demo those we want to grade those properties we want to put in new culverts we want to improve the drainage all the way across that property but right now we're trying to move in that direction okay thank you if I may add the issue you discussed there again the difficulties are in a developed portion of Austin a pond it wouldn't just surface overflow it would be connected into an underground storm sewer system but again because this area is detached from development now it has to be looked at as a different style of overflow and how that's all it's not a typical design to what we would see in a developed portion of Austin all right anybody got any other questions for anybody anybody ready to make a motion did we ever answer Mr Lang's question about the well systems if we were going to move forward with approving Wells or if we would require Municipal city water so that they would have that if we were to continue this matter further I would want to hear what the given the two options what are what are our choices is it is it all or nothing is there something that they can work out together between the city and the developer to get the water down 28th to the development I mean what's I guess to make that decision I have to know what what is the choice what what is it we're choosing between cuz right now I don't know said differently your preference is City water but not if it's so ridiculous that no one would do it is that what you're saying so you want you if it if it's doable you would like Stephen Lang to explore that with Austin utilities and bring back to the next meeting how that would work well yeah it sounds like that's the option the city wants is they want to have City water out there but I want to know what all those ramifications are if that's doable and whether or not the developer even agreeable well I think it would mean something to those potential homeowners to know that that due diligence happened when the subdivision started instead of saying we're just going to do it this way just to just to get it done and now it's costing thousands of dollars for those people to upgrade or to now they have to connect to to city water it was decided before in 2010 or whenever it was that they put the sewer in not to do the water because of costs to the homeowners so I doubt that that position has changed but is there something that can be worked out with the developer so I personally can't say tonight that yeah I'm I wouldn't approve it unless it got City Water instead of the wells or I'm okay with Wells depending on how they do it I don't know it depends on what the answers are to those other questions then do we need a motion for we call it a continuance yeah we need a motion to continue it at least to the next month if not till October and I is there any way we could get that answer in 30 days from utilities versus continue 60 days out get the answer 30 days out and then we have to start well yeah we don't have to do notices this time so that's not a it would just be yeah 30 days from now so I I feel like that's a tight timeline but I I would be inclined to go 30 days and then if we need to we'll bump it another 30 rather than give them 60 days right up front because they might just wait longer to get started if you do correct that's my thought and I don't I don't mean to interrupt and tell me if I'm out of Border but I agree completely with you is that as I said in the very opening of my statement I believe I've only been dealing with Holly now that I have a city engineer and I know that I can talk with Austin Public Utilities I think we can start to actually negotiate options and bring them forward so that at the next meeting you can at least have an update on it knowing that we're moving in the right direction or if it just goes to hell then we'll withdraw our application if you understand where I'm going with that but at least we can start to answer some of these questions to give you a a firm footing to make decisions on over the course of the next 60 days we're perfectly fine with that thank [Music] you one more just and just keep in mind the concerns of the folks out here as well yeah the my concern you mentioned grading free grading the property uh from its what height level or are these structures going to stay within 4 in high of the M know grade the gr or are we going to build these properties up where that pushes the water back towards us they will be required to control their own water they can't just push their water off onto all of the neighbors any they can't push it off any more than it already does they can push off the same quantity that currently happens but they also need to control the new water that they create by adding these impervious structures and that's where the pond comes in to store that new water that's created created all right I just I just heard grading where he was going to regrade well that means raising I've heard people say that before the next thing I know they got a structure up 2 three feet higher than everyone else there's nothing that says they can't put their structure higher but they do need to control their water they can't just push it all off onto the neighbor they can put their structure up higher but what I'm saying is okay you put your structure up higher doesn't mean you're putting your land up highight you're just putting the building up highight they need to control their water okay that's that's something I'd like to have uh noted in your next meeting or whatever what the plan exactly on the limitations of the construction thank you I'd make a motion to to uh continue this to the September meeting and have Holly try to give as much information to us that we can get over that period of time between now and then with the understanding that the city and the developer are going to work together with Austin utilities and any other players to try and resolve some of these issues correct so it looks like our next meeting would be September 10th I second okay thank you I have a motion from commissioner Lindberg and a second from commissioner burrow to continue the matter until the next meeting on September 10th in the meantime with the understanding that the city and the developer utilities and whoever else is involved work together to try and resolve some of those issues any further discussion not we'll go ahead and vote all in favor of the motion please say I I all oppose no motion carries six zero we continued until next month you got anything else Holly uh no I don't have anything else other than uh we are working starting to kick off our comp plan update and so I'll probably send you some surveys and if you can uh encourage people to to uh fill those out and uh if anybody's interested in being on our uh uh advisory committee uh let me know all right anything further from the commit commers all right thank you Mr Conway for coming tonight giving us all the information welcome thanks for the neighbors for coming out and putting your voices in there and thanks Stephen for hanging around so late and answering all our questions I need a motion and a second to adjourn make a motion to adjourn second thank you we have a motion from commissioner swensson and a second from commissioner burs toour say I I allos no J