##VIDEO ID:WibXjSXPO_g## now 618 I'm calling the the to order this special meeting the air planning board in conjunction with the affordable housing committee thank you Jonathan all right and there's not enough members for the Housing Trust not at this point okay um should they show up we may interrupt you and call a quum no problem we do have some individuals walking in right now I can't see who they are unfortunately can't I've got Ron and Ron and Pat so youve got AUM Jeff you got a quum Jeff then uh Jeff tilletson calling to order the air affordable housing trust for the special meeting with the um affordable housing committee on MCO cottage rentals excellent thank you Jeff thank you thank you Pat for showing up sure we're late but better late than not at all well you got it all right no problem and this is Janet prus calling the the order meeting of the affordable housing committee this has been a uh joint meeting that again it's more of an informational meeting but um included the affordable housing trust as well as the planning board we do have members of the planning board here as well as on zoom and we also have uh Dan our DPW director um online as well I got to read the text this meeting of the air affordable housing committee and the air affordable housing trust will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast un L otherwise required by law members of the public will particular interest in the specific item on this agenda should make plans for an inperson versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proce the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID number 81850 97403 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Alicia Hershey a Hershey a.m. us or 978 772 8220 extension 142 prior to the meeting and again we called it to order all right um can I just go ahead um we do have copies of the agenda here the agenda is pretty straight forward it's um we approv the agenda and our joint meeting I know the housing trust needs to approve that and after that again it's the information session um by Mark and it's like all right um so can I just get a motion to approve the agenda please I second okay I think we can do that can't we I don't know you're our moderator um you need to have uh anybody from the trust or the um committee I believe can make the motion and second yeah okay okay right the agenda's been all right now the Housing Trust I don't know if your committee has gone ahead and been able to review the minutes of the meeting The Joint meeting that we had well they haven't voted on approving the agenda the agenda all in favor we'll go through the oh I'm gon I am going to have to bring up the participants well this is going to be fun I can't read all the way over there um okay do the let me do the roll call Jeff do you Jonathan hi Bob hi let see okay Dave I on J Jan yeah kath's on the planning board that's right yeah okay I yes oh I okay and R says I chair says I approved okay all right Jeff you want to handle the next item on the agenda please I'm sorry I just put it down it's just to approve the joint minutes I'm sorry thank you um I'm sorry the joint minutes for whom may I ask the joint meeting the committee has already approved the joint minutes of 828 yes you also called the trust members while you did that no we just did the agenda oh I'm sorry um do I have a motion from anybody on the trust to approve the minutes from The Joint meeting is that what we're asking for yes perf thank you I'm sorry I I I put the agenda away a moment ago you can't tell but my cats decided to join me and she climbs on the keyboard so all right pat pat make the motion second thank you Pat thank you Bob uh in order of the pictures I see Bob how do you vote hi Pat how do you vote hi I'm looking for the other members right now you've got you've got um it's just you Jeff oh sorry don't we have a seven member board yeah okay I'm sorry we're not in Quorum inum thank you I know I know that's why I love Zoom I'm sorry okay no problem we'll take care of the minutes at our next meeting okay sounds good all right I'm moving on okay mark oragen from MCO which stands for uh Mark easy not complicated it was that all right that is awesome um all right Mark I'm going to have you take over do you want I'll drive yeah you can drive if you want to go to the first one so oh this is going to be fun I'm going to drive you just got to scroll down here we go there you go um I may be a boomer but not so I'm Marco Hagen from M Associates I'm located right in Harvard right up on 11 close to dunin donuts and I live in Bolton so relatively close I do done good amount of workout in this area 90% of my work is 40 BS so uh years ago I was involved with the Willows over here in a um and recently just finished the Craftsman Village fire just off the rotary uh just in the Harvard line that was 20 Town Homes through 40b live affordable 15 Market um so I had met Janet you would come over to my office so I I don't six months ago eight months ago and we were talking about some some different things and I was explaining how I was starting on uh some new projects that were cottage Focus so we kind of continue to have the conversation um right now I'm building a project in uh Lancaster Mass so there's 32 units um individual Cottages I'm actually doing them for rent so something I wanted to do for a while uh the site was interesting it was uh approved as 32 units for sale um had a bunch of problems but the infrastructure was in so the road barer was in so of the septic was in utilities were in water was in so I was kind of you know limit by the the layout that we had um but had decided the shift from the the for sale to the rental something I wanted to do kind of long-term income thing so if we want to go to the next one I can I don't want to get too far ahead of the slides so uh really this is just talking about me most of my work is Affordable I've done probably 30 of them in different capacities in and around the area couple in Bolton um Lancaster boxboro um and so I've got a sizable project that's coming up that I'll show you as well um so you can click I said I'm a local guy so with the communities um I'm here talking about rental but before sale I'm I you know I like the cottage aspect I like tighter areas I think you really need to do it to get affordability um never really been interested or done any you know big homes or you know from the devel perspective I've kind of always um been involved in this fact in in this uh in the affordable realm and find the denser communities just a little bit more interesting a little more uh little more fun little more affordable in general okay from modest means myself so um uh so this is talking again more about the rental communities but um you know front porches Gathering spaces having that kind of focal point as compared to the vehicle is really something I've been focused on for years so go to the next one so the Cottages that I'm uh building and this is in Lancaster I'll be building them in snow I'll be building them in dunable as well uh modest in size they're 1115 to, 1400 Square F feet um uh primarily two you know two bedrooms and three bedrooms I have some one bedrooms that um need to to to create to fill some gaps one or two bathrooms really the focus big front porches I've got um a bungalow that provides a really nice one level living that's about the 1150 Square ft two comfortable bedrooms you know big open kitchen dining living area so really a terrific alternative for people that that are older and don't want to deal with stairs or somebody that may have you know issues with stairs um I've got some three a three-bedroom home that I have as well has a a bedroom on the first floor so again suitable for um people with handicaps or disted desire to not use stairs um with these they're modest in size uh they're they're all electric all with with heat pumps you know really high insulation values everything you building these days is wildly efficient some would say overly efficient and I agree with them um but it's a it's a Well constructed property and again most today are and the finishes are they're like a single family home it's 9ft ceilings it's Sports countertops it's stainless steel appliances you know nice tile nice flooring nice fixtures really throughout so the intent is that you know it it doesn't it doesn't feel like an apartment for one thing when it's rental and even if it was for sale it would have the same you know the same Advantage the finishes really wouldn't be much different if I was selling um looks like we have a question for Jonathan yeah are you taking questions during the presentation or would you prefer us to wait I'm happy to take them at any time so oh thank you I have a question about the heating uh you said all electric you said the heat pumps do you have any um sense of what Peak winter uh heating cost would be for a cottage 15 you know 1,150 sare feet to, 1400 how much are we talking about for Heat New England we I'm just finishing I mean the first the people moved in about uh 6 months ago so uh they haven't gone through the winter yet so I'm hesitant to uh I'd be guessing based upon what you know the suppliers told me um but uh whether that's the the true number I'm not sure so I don't want to say this is the cost and and and have it be different um I mean I have I I have a you know one at space over a garage at home and in a in a second home they're they're not um I don't find them to be super inexpensive I mean if I have them and I'm if I'm using the one at home for a space over the garage it probably cost about a 100 a month whether it's in the winter to to heat it or in the summer to um uh have air conditioning and that's maybe 700 Square ft so ballpark uh you know with the homes they're they're broken up the different you know most of them have uh you know there's there's three to five heads in the home homes depending on uh what the layout is where you the ones that I have personal useage it's just one you know one system for a broad open area so if we meet um in May I'll have some really good information for you fortunately that's all I have right now all right thank you okay we'll call you back in may call me back in May I I see Pauline's got her hand up Paul hi Janet thank you for recognizing me and answer to the question that Jonathan just asked I have an all electric house about 1,200 square ft on the upper level which is heated uh which is I have heat pumps I have three and it took me a while to understand how to use them because they're not conventional but I run maybe $400 a month in the heating season but keep in mind that's all electric not just heat um washer dryer refrigerator stove hot water Etc so it's it's economical but you have to choose your supplier to make it so thank you Paul you're welcome okay and Paul just to let you know we just received the um the slides here they will be put on the website for future review yes I heard that at the beginning and that's why I didn't ask thank you Jen okay no problem thank you okay yeah so you can go ahead I just got uh just a little more information on the houses and then we can talk about some site plans this is the two-bedroom two Lev Cottage this is about 1300 Square fet um you know just some there's a couple different elements that we can change around I've got a metal roof on some of them some I have the bat and board on a first floor other other locations I put it in different areas just to try to mix and match you know I use a few different colors but um nice big front porch they all have these porches that are like 7 by 20 um so really usable for people out there it's not like a a three-foot porch that you really can't sit and walk by it it really is a a usable porch and uh in the neighborhood um you know at this point people are really using them it's nice uh it's nice to see um this is about 1300 ft so the bedrooms are up on the second floor and living space on the first floor the next slide is just the floor plan pretty straightforward kitchen dining in the back living space in the front uh these homes in Lancaster have oh my M slipped over I know saw um I got to make a bigger Circle I the um uh it the the project in Lancaster it is partially on slab the intention they were all going to be on slab but then when we finished the final design some of them we added uh uh basements just based on topography on the site that that made sense so you'll see a little room here so we've got monry and a hot water heater there you you don't see uh stairs to the basement it gives us some extra storage um and you'll you'll see it in the you know in the the picture going ahead so and you can go to the next slide which is a picture of the actual house so um this is uh a home this is in Lancaster one of the earlier homes that we're doing um we're still we kind of just done the landscaping and moving along with it but um you know try to keep it looking like the picture when I put stuff up there so and parking for them would be um in the back right uh there's a mix when we get to the site plan which will be coming up I'll give you a better sense of uh of what we did with that I figured i' just run through the house so you go to the next one this is the Bungalow that we talked about about 1150 Square ft nice open plan um you know two comfortable bedrooms uh the second floor that's just Aesthetics really um and go to the next one that has the plan again pretty straightforward the living dining kitchen area is really uh uh it's it's a lot of space I mean at these days you know even in your you know you a whatever 2400 foot put house this space seems to be comparable from a living sense um so people have uh really liked it again 9ot sailings laundry there on the first floor mechanical room uh where I have two bathrooms I do one as a shower one as a tub in case that they have kids um but just nicely finished I think the next one is just a finished version of this one um uh again just trying to obviously be consistent with the plan um and people you know they're they are using the porches they got the string lights out and stuff so it's uh it's nice and it kind of you know transitioning to a neighborhood is there access to that second level like storage where that there's there is um yeah there is access to the store it's not pull down it's just a a box but uh some people are using it for extra space yeah oh Jonathan put his hand down must been I was just going to ask about the upper level too so there's no real um there's no convenient access up there the windows are there the dorm is there really for as aesthetic appeal is that that's all it is yeah just the it would have my my feeling was it been just too much roof um so that was just an intent to break it up uh and these are these These are rental homes too so uh from you know people advise if you make it easy for people to use space they're going to throw stuff up there it's going to be difficult to get it out you're always gonna be trying to it was there when iov to clean it up yeah yeah so all right Kath quick question do they have basement or is it uh this this one that you see is slab on grade I actually even you know did concrete on the uh on the front of them as um it really as I move through the project more on topography I have homes that have a full basement uh well the walk out basement just the way that we would dealing with slopes the original feeling with the you know with this laab was that he hey save a little money again it's space that people would use for storage that could be problematic in the future with people so that was what we were doing um you know we're finding out people you know people pay a premium for the basement just like they would for a storage area so there are some some tradeoffs um but nobody's left yet so I don't know it's all that a problem so quick question um so this was this a 40b subdivision how many of them are affordable and how many of them are just this uh 25% so traditional um traditional comprehensive permit yeah okay so eight affordables and 24 Market here the affordables um run about 2,000 for a two-bedroom I think about 2300 but the utilities are included okay with just the way that we uh we had to do it with the the power the way it was already laid out okay uh the market rate here run from about 3200 to 37 or so um 100 a month so okay um you know a little more money than um very good than some others but that's helpful to understand you know put it in context yeah yeah and and you can afford to build those and have five of them you know five 25% affordable and um yeah I'll run through some of the economics as we we get through when we talk about some of the site stuff I think it becomes relative but okay I mean the short answer is for the the uncertainty with these deals and where it's difficult to know if they work is really more in the land and the infrastructure in particular um infrastructure you know for me it's it's just a what it's a crazy number and it I I feel like they throw something against the wall and say let's found you this um so it's uh it's it's gotten very expensive their expenses have gone up ially as well so I you know we're as compared to it really I guess it really depends what you're comparing it to when I'm looking at these as rentals I feel I'm comparing it to a new modern Community with um you know a three four story building Clubhouse pool that kind of stuff that the cost to build this on a square foot basis is this is is is the same I can maybe do even a little better depending on um what they've got for structural stuff but it is the infrastructure ructure that can make it more challenging you know on this site I'm building on I mean I think the whole site's about 12 to 13 acres but there's Wetlands I'm building on about six you know but if I did one building obviously the infrastructure would be a lot cheaper so you know that's kind of the that's kind of the tradeoff that I that I deal with but the vertical construction I I don't think is uh that's not prohibitive that's not the the cost aspect that is uh uh concerning plus it's pretty defined I know what it is it works it doesn't work based upon the other components so very all right we got Danny Ruez who um is our town planner um who raised his hand Danny yeah I just had a quick question so I heard so these are a 40b have you ever done a you know this type of development in a different town under a different mechanism other than 40b uh I haven't I mean the zoning in most pound doesn't really allow for it I uh actually had kind of a webinar today with uh Central Mass planning and you know that's the whole thing the towns are like should we create Zoning for this what to do how to do it which I I know it's it's something that that that this town is looking at and it's hard it's challenging because it's um you know you in in many of the towns that I work with you know I I happen to have water in Lancaster I didn't have sewer so you got to find a way to make that Network um they had x amount of capacity that was built but did a bad job at it so been cleaning up for their mistakes uh because I think I said I bought this I'm not sure if I said it I acquired this um with the infrastructure installed so the road was in of the septic was in so I had a little less flexibility in terms of what my design could be because I needed to work with with what existed it was uh a 30 two unit um subdivision um that in my opinion just would have been an awful place to live um the houses were ugly s was terrible and needless to say in an environment in which everything sold this property went under so um I was able I acquired it from the lender um but there there's not much Zing that allows uh that allows for this towns are starting to look at it now um but anything really 90% of the projects that I've been involved with have been affordable I mean I've always felt that the you know that the 40b is just like just a wonderful addition to a Town's tool box you you got a lot of creativity that you can utilize a lot of flexibility um all sites are different with different constraints and uh I know that's the hard part and you guys creating zoning but um I I just found affordability flexible enough that um you can work through a lot of issues with a you know with a host Community that's generally supportive of what you're doing and that's really been the you know the bulk of my career has been working with towns not you know trying to um push things down Town's throat so I I get a lot of support for the projects and you know we try to work through issues because they they're always there so um so that was a long waed answer but uh so I've done him uh really through through the 40b um in uh in virtually all my projects yeah okay all right um Jeff you've got a question thanks Janet um couple of questions couple observations couple questions so you've worked in midd County looks like uh Wester County also did you do want oh which county do you like best first of all from affordability standpoint um I was interested to hear about your um the Wastewater challenge you have on properties that not have uh uh Wastewater uh plants yeah uh they're all challenging so I mean a lot of the sites that I have you see them you know particularly where they're you know predominantly two bedrooms of right around 40 units because they'll beat you under the under 10,000 gallons um for people unaware you can do essentially a you know a septic system up to 10,000 gallons after that you jump to wastewater treatment which is a a substantial increased in cost and design and approval process um and I I've done them in a lot of uh a lot of different ways this site was was interesting so uh they had 32 3bedroom homes and he had a a a Presby system in the back that accommodated about 2third of it you know I'm like all right I'm not a genius but I'll do some two-bedrooms I can fit it all in the existing system pretty straightforward uh but Presby sold to somebody else and in the process they had never got the system certified um so their standards changed so I still ended up having to add another septic system and the materials here were decent on um up in the back which is well off the locus of where the homes are and then there was one other location where there was a pretty good system actually if you want to jump ahead a few of them you'll we'll have the s actually the question I have um more is more though since there going to be rental going forward we assume that we assume that that's built into the actual um monthly rent and that becomes the uh responsibility of the rental agent of the of the of the um the tenants uh well not the ten you don't want tenants managing a Wastewater system I'm sorry I did I did private I did residential condominium for years with priv waste water you don't want the inmates running the show no no but so yes for the this this the septic that is you know my responsibility as the own uh providing it they're not paying anything in addition for it the water I had them submetered so they do pay their own water okay U but here so for reference if you see between 13 and 14 which is a little bit of a pavement out if that that continued on and that the ex existing septic system was was out Beyond there that's kind of off the map um this parking area that you see between say 22 23 and 21 um just to the left right there uh there's a septic system underneath that that serves about um seven homes I believe so uh otherwise everything you know one through 1 through 14 and 32 through 22 all on the existing septic system um and then 15 through 21 are on the one that I had to add in that location so they basically all have uh Force they all have Force systems in them e ones or something like that correct yeah well they they flow up gravity in CLS of in groups of homes flowing by gravity into a tank which is then pumped into a force man that goes up to the back so so you don't so you don't have an alarm in every building that attendant doesn't know what it is um no we have an alarm that is there what I'm saying is it's not one not one tank for each home in some areas I've got five or six of them on one and others I've got two just the way uh they had two lines that went out there so we had to mix and match and get the flow to be correct of going going to the back so no it's just it's just as a as a as a rental manager I can only imagine they don't they ignore the buzzer in the basement yeah more standpoint than than you know how to how to get that done in a cost standpoint yeah thank you you're welcome so um so this site this Cottage Lane that was the the road that was uh in essentially installed um the layout that they had has had homes kind of along the street and then staggered behind it um if you're ever out on the property and you take a ride through you'll see the unit number 10 was the one sad house that's sat there by itself at the end of this road for about six years um and it it's you know it's a little it was a modular small Colonial that he did um so you'll you'll just notice that it looks a bit different um so I kind of chose to put and what you'll see in other sites and what I typically do is you know where we have the community green uh is often the the Lee area for systems where you can use some open space here really did it just to give a broader sense of space for the residents so um they everybody has behind them is generally wooded and it really everybody looks out you the majority of the homes look out onto the green space that just provides a a sense of openness um uh for parking uh again there's a variety you can see units like 1 through nine on the on the right hand side I added um driveways where we had space with some parking in the back so kind of they can walk you know from their house out their back door directly to parking um this optional has a cover um I could build them if I chose to that's on there so I'm building some in this optional garaging that you see at the bottom behind 30 31 and 32 I'm putting in a a you know one five car Bay garage and we um and and I can add more if I choose to I could add them in the individual locations I don't know if I really will I I just wanted to kind of preserve the right to do it um so you've got you know for this that lower parking one that kind of goes up to 26 27 and then um you've got the other parking lot between 21 22 and 3 that's over the septic and then we've got some parking along the road some you can seek some you can't so everybody has two spaces there are some additional spaces in the in the parking areas the roads are wide enough you can have uh a car on the street um not to keep it there but for company and coming and going so um so far it hasn't proven uh to be a problem parking is always uh always tough um so I just the back end of the culdesac uh I literally we just paved um that parking area and finished up the rest of the parking and walkways and stuff just uh about a week ago so I'm just finishing that section um at this point um but like I said this is about it's about 6 Acres as a you know as a as a build buildable area this isn't overly as dense I probably would have done a a different design and this a couple of other samples um uh of other site plans if I was starting from scratch but I had that uh I had that site plan so that's uh that's how it is with this being a rental um do are these assigned to each unit we're we may assign one to people you know they're they're they're there is enough but hasn't been a problem yet we're not we're just finishing it to so my the feeling was that we'll we'll assign one to people that's in close proximity to their home and then uh and then we'll let the other ones float yeah how close are the buildings to each other those they about 15 ft where you see them there we've got the driveways in it's a little bit more um if you're closer than 10 ft you've got extra fire precautions you need to take so I try to avoid that um so you know 12 to 15 is generally where I I try to be you know you can get a vehicle through there and Equipment through there if you needed to um you know this walkway that you see that runs in front of 22 to 30 um because the homes were off the street that ended up being like a a 10t way as a fire access uh you know to comply um and under the zoning is this one lot or are they on individual lot this is one uh this is one lot now when I acquired it there was between the 32 homes and some open space Parcels there were 36 Parcels so I rescinded um so the zoning is sort of like we have a zoning here on Condominiums 10,000 square ft for the first one 3,000 after that for each other it similar is that the wayer didn't have anything like that they're predominantly single fam on me like you know like Harvard like bolted and so they didn't have um they didn't they didn't they don't have Zoning for for condominiums or very little promot there's a a small section in town I think they have some by the college but that's about it so this was developed through a comprehensive permit as as the the small sub as a subdivision with with individual odds um you know but he had the individual lots and then he had a shared septic system which is is is complicated it's part of the reason he could never get things done um so it was a very uh complicated structure that didn't really need to be as as complicated in my opinion but um so I subsequently rescinded the subdivision plan and brought it back to one law yeah I know you and I spoke about um the house is over in Harvard right right across the line they are also 15 feet those are yeah those are tight too those are yeah those are even a little bit tighter in some ways because we had uh more limited space there we had a the original plan that we had for the side I like much better we really had a central green really simmit of the center that we had I think 18 houses with um kind of facing each other with um a kind of rear loaded gares and a looping road that went in uh that I liked a lot better than what we ended up with cly um but we got in a big um you know uh discussion with the about the nature of the wells um which what what we had proposed and what we had just finished in in Bolton was we had um six two-bedrooms homes on a well um six two bedrooms four people per home six homes 24 people not a community water supply and then we did an individual septic system with them um which was perfectly fine and I've done it probably three other times for whatever reason they wouldn't let us do it in hard uh we went round and around on it and so we had to put in Wells as a community water supply and to locate those with the radius that you have for people that aren't familiar with it you know if you have a well in your home you know you've got offsets to you know a septic system but you know you can overlay property lines you can be you know you only need to be so far away from your your house or your structure for a community water supply you have to control all the space and you really can't do anything else in there and so on if you're looking at the homes on the right side you know there's kind of a brook that runs through there so we located the wells you know on this side of the brook to take advantage of the space on the other side but we ended up using so much space that we couldn't do the Lo the the looping system that we wanted so we ended up with the roadway on the left and then these kind of drives that you know that that shoot down on the right so it it ended up compressing it you know so they're Tighter and those homes are bigger those are about 2, 2100 ft yeah um and they have the the garages that are in the back so the the roads are really kind of like alleys uh you know but many of the homes they don't you know they don't really look at anything like in in other locations so um but so that was the issue there there we had a setp that was out in the back um and we were going to you know break that up into three areas and have three lots and the town was on board with it but the EP um messed it up so we've got this wildly complicated Community water supply for only 20 residents which is reasonably expensive to operate um and but to to help offset it we did add we did add two units so we went from 18 to 20 because we no longer had the the bedroom limitation for people and we had a little more capacity accepting so okay that's how that worked all right Dan Danny yeah I just had a quick question so there was a comment on um about uh Condominiums and something about 10,000 and plus 3,000 someone stated that before yeah 10 10,000 for the first condo and then 3,000 after that breach additional yeah so you're talking about the the minimum lot area under General residence it's under A2 I believe no so I believe it's under General because I just want to make sure res yeah okay I'm just trying to make sure that um I I understood where that was coming from okay yeah so um so that's the site here we got Jonathan oh I'm sorry that's okay Jonathan you might be on mute sorry about that thank you so could you tell us more about the concept behind the community green are we just looking at a wide expanse of lawn or is it benches picnic tables Sports yeah more of a wide expans of lawn um with you know some landscape stuff around it we do have utilities and water and things that are running through it uh I may add a a gazebo or something but at this point we kind of left it open to let things mature a little bit and uh and see how things work so this is is actually a bigger green than what I would typically use but given um uh just the orientation and the road layout and how it worked um it's what made the most sense on the site I think from I mean that was my opinion from a design perspective at least um but really intended to be uh provide you know nice separation between um uh the bulk of the homes kind of looking across the the green and the roadway to your neighbors so that was the intent I think from the side of the road to the to the front of the houses is about 120 feet 130 feet or so um and it tapers down a little bit but but yeah that's the intent okay thank you yeah all right anything else okay go ahead Nathan Mark uh you said you do some other projects with Community greens and do you find one of the things that appealing about that I expect would be to um families with children plus you said you have two and three bedroom do you find your properties the ones that are rented or are sold a blend of socioeconomic and ages yeah I mean generally with the affordability you know they all have an affordable component so the socioeconomic is always blend um um and that you know it's funny when i' I've seen properties that kind of morph over the time it usually isn't the economic issues that that become problematic if anything I've seen some properties where you know if the condo fees are much lower for the affordables on the market that creates some tension um uh but for the most part most of the stuff that I've done we've usually had a pretty you know pretty broad mix of people um and in Harvard we have homes that have first B Masters and others that don't uh Bolton a project that will do here we did the same thing we had some with First full Masters and some that didn't you know and neither of them they're not age restricted by um uh you know they're more age restricted by design that we offer first FL Masters as compared to saying this is age restricted you need to be 55 plus um so having that benefit alone kind of gives you a mix of a frames because it's suitable um you know there's a lot of people that uh want the flex ability of that design but yet don't want to be a property own with old people that like a little more life and they like you know a range of of people in around them so I found um uh yeah broad diversity I've built you know a little while ago I built a project in Wayland so you had affordable homes at 250 and market rate Homes at you know 800 900 and you have that range that's even more you get in closer towards Boston and things so you you very definitely will have uh a discrepancy in terms of of income but I I I don't find it to be hugely problematic when I go back and look at them later there's always somebody that's Messier but it it's not always an affordable buy that's what people think you know um so hope that answers it um quick question too um when you do the different types of um houses some affordable some Market they all look some you know look the same they're all the same yeah no no difference in finishes for rental for sale there's differences um you know the intent is for for any project whether it's a rental whether it's a for sale is the I mean the focus is I mean even specifically written in it is is on the exterior so um you need to distribute them as you locate them but you also you know you don't want to drive through a property and say that's affordable that's affordable that's affordable so that's the standard I've found homes that are smaller but they're smaller in terms of depth uh as compared to the when you look at it it looks the same but on the interior for a an affordable for sale property you know your cabinets may not be as nice you might have carpet where you have hard wooden Market you might not have a fireplace where you have it so there's smaller changes but um you know that you will see some changes um but I can say from the street numers from the street you don't you know and where you know where the interest rates went up so much and the affordable prices came down you really had to because the Gap in terms of what you know how much more they were costing to produce to the price got really challenging for a while there it's moderating a little bit now the incomes have gone up the interest rates are starting to come down you know when I look at for sale projects I always just you know and it's just however mental manipulation that it look to the affordable units if I could you know my land my infrastructure my soft cost that's based on my 75% market rate and if I could build and sell my affordable homes for what I paid for it I consider that to be that was my goal that was a victory you know um and for a while it was really out of whack um it just it just between costs going up and prices coming down so it's challenging but now it's it's starting to moderate um back to a a reasonable um a reasonable Zone okay thank you yeah so the next slide I remember what it is oh this you want to see the other hold on oh that's the three bedroom sure yeah that's the same design I didn't have a great picture of one of the homes but uh same thing this has a master bedroom on the first floor that you see kitchen dining living we had a little Nook that was a study I actually ended up taking out those walls cuz it felt a little tighter but it's still a nice spot for uh you know for for a pocket office but again kitchen with an Island dining room and living room very comfortable two bedrooms upstairs uh another full bath uh and that is uh that was 1400s 1408 I think it was I think that's what it said from the design perspective um so this I it was a video that it just looked decent it was just shortly after I had done the Landscaping of having a range of the homes but the video didn't carry on to uhto what I had sent you um but if you guys want to go over and um uh if you have an interest in seeing it it's located some of us do want to yeah so Cottage Lane should come up on GPS now um but worst case it's off of deera road it's uh it's right after 259 deera Road that's de s o r n um um but the you know the Landscaping is now in it's green it's yeah this time of the year everything looks nice and green so um yeah it's coming together I'm pretty happy with it ni I did a few different colors you know did some metal roofs in some areas to break it up um I said you got some flexibility on treatment but um so we go on to the next one this is uh this is St acers so this is a interesting project um been working with the town for probably three plus years on it Stow acres is uh there's 36 holes so you get two full golf courses on what is on you can see Randall Road where the entrance is those structures there in the middle that's the clubhouse so on the the the left of of no if you go up the perpendicular Road that's running per no you'll see Randall Road NOP to your left left left keep going keep going keep going keep going right there so that building that's the clubhouse the existing clubhouse that sered both courses yeah so um what had happened is the golf course had been considering um selling some or all of its land um I had started talking with them about uh a smaller piece of property they were looking to cut off then we started talking about a larger project uh I had done some work in town and was familiar with a couple of people and and we said hey Mark we you're you know you're looking to to do some work at the golf course um and they're like we we'd really like to be involved we you know we're we're you know they're they didn't want to see the entire um property go to you know acre and a half lots and you know 3,000 squ foot houses uh it's 325 Acres a really really big piece of uh of Green Space within the town so um they actually hired a land planner and uh between uh you know myself the golf course owner uh three or four people in town and the planner literally spent about a year towards the beginning of Co of going through they did a full evaluation on the site you know what could be good for conservation and Recreation what was good for golf where housing could be located and kind of you know made this this broad plan to deal with the whole site because the town they didn't want to see it Go in pacem maail it was was under 61a but it was own residential so it really you know and you know being hit with a you know whatever a $10 million price all at once through the uh the 61a would have been problematic so what they agreed to do um the town acquired a conservation restriction on the South Court which is about 160 Acres kind of starting at that building that runs all the way down to the asit river um they've already done that they' sub subsequently tied in some trails that they have around it they've got a kayak launch and stuff that they've done so on the North Course which is here to the right that we're seeing uh there was a total of 180 Acres um I got about 70 the town actually acquired the other 110 acres which was the golf course and uh the driving range which again is just off the Locust um and uh the there an agement to keep golf on nine holes for 10 years kind of while they figure out exactly what they want to do get the money that they need and we agreed to arrange of housing on the 70 Acres that uh that I'm acquiring so what we have is in the very uh the very far right um uh in there I've got 40 of the Cottages the same thing that you saw in in Lancaster uh and then everything else in front of of it with the exception of this gray building um there's 125 homes those will be the simple homes uh those are on lots that are small but they range from like 5 to 8,000 square feet um those will probably you know that the it's essentially three affordable projects so 25% of the of the 40 units will be affordable 25% so 31 um for sale will be uh will be affordable and this gray building here that is a multif family building uh we'll have 25 relatively modest one-bedroom apartments for people that are 62 plus um we did that at uh 50% of median income so we'll have some stuff in there that's really affordable um uh so the you really the goal was to try to create a development that's more reflective of of who lives in town now so we've got some rentals we've got some you know some stuff targeted for uh for 62 plus and then you know we've got a range of housing in between um so this town's been really excited about it to be honest with you they're they're signing the permit I think in about 20 minutes um so that's good now I've got a I've got a community water supply that's kind of up into the the far right hand so I'm building on probably about 50 of the 70 Acres there about 20 acres that'll be in the public water supply um I just drilled those Wells so that was good and the uh I've got a wastewater treatment facility that will go in as well um and you know given the size of it and some of the density we're you know I'm doing a clubhouse and a pool and all that kind of stuff um you but here again um really uh trying to have a focus on on people you can see you know these little cross streets those are just garaging um not that one but if you go behind it you can see um like over here little yeah these little ones that come in so you know these These Streets will be you know we'll have some parking on the streets some nice Landscaping you know homes with Picket Fences and porch and so kind of a a heavily landscaped area but the garaging is on these alleys this is all just alleys for garaging you know the same thing here and they'll be kind of you know tucked away so we looked at you know the lots and building the homes and like you know we don't you know you don't need an you don't really need an acre you certainly don't need an acre and a half or two acres that you have from town so we put together all of these vignettes is the planning of how can it be used and here's a family that could have you know a swing set and other people could have Gardens and other people could have a hot tub and or a gazebo or whatever a pero or something in the bag um and uh you know and we kind of designed it so that we'll have you know a range the interior Lots might be you know uh plus or minus 2,000 square feet for square feet it's the exterior ones um and we did those with kind of side loaded garages again on the majority of them there's a couple of lots we had to do um without it um in the final design uh so again the cars will be will be off the street and you know good amount of landscaping fencing there'll be a lot of details in it but you know it's really more of kind of your you know your traditional neighborhood development that you read about that you see this in other parts of the country but you really don't see it up here uh it's tough to do if you don't have a you know you get sites with a bunch of wetlands and hills and grades and rocks up here this is spectacular it's wide open it's all sand groundwater is low um so we really had a lot of flexibility to to do a design you know that that although intensive and even when you look at the plan it looks intensive but I think as it uh as it develops and it matures it'll be a really cool place to live and for people that are golfers you've got Stow Acres 18 holes on the left you got but you know the stuff on the right hand side is a whole another golf course that's the butternut golf course and going north you've got 100 acres that's golf now and will transition to uh Recreation conservation for the town with hiking paths and amp theaters and ball fields and you know all this kind of stuff that they're putting in so really cool project we got a walking path that'll go around so by the time you know it'll be probably three miles to go around this property and when it you finish with the balance of the town's property and then if you tie it in looping around the other course you literally have like a f mile walk so it's a cool cool site I'm really really excited about it question how are you subsidizing the 40% um one bedrooms um because uh when you do ranal you have two options you can do 25% at 80% or 20% at 50% oh okay so that's how it's a 25 so it's really one unit one way or the other so there'll be five at 50 instead of what would have been six at at eight okay got it okay um who wants the Community Gardens up here uh that was something that originally was discussed the town actually said you know what we've got other community gardens we don't need them so we took them off and uh you know they said if if we you know we kind of left it in the permit that they could be added but they didn't feel that it would be necessary they have some that were weren't being utilized and they said they're they're they're a lot harder to manage than it looks like um so um that was just one thing yeah my cousin down in Texas lives in exactly the same type you know and they're they're absolutely beautiful yeah yeah and these will be you know these will be nice homes these I mean these perimeter homes they'll be you know one two probably you know uh 2800 3,000 square feet um but again you know richly designed um you know with space uh with enough space to have what you need for your you know for your family you're not going to have the Playland that people bid out here with pools and all the crazy stuff that we all have um but I think it'll be uh it'll be a really really a really nice place to live so just around question okay jeck yeah thank you um some onlab some with basements I imagine the perimeter homes probably with basements I can't imagine a New England home without a basement it's so strange up here oh yeah yeah basement yes yeah this is a much better use of that Golf Course by the way um if if if looking at this kind of oriented left to right coming off r road on the left all the way to the right that that's the butternut end I think Pro into the property um that's where the that's where the um rentals are going to go all in one spot all in the back yeah okay great just want to understand that you you covered an awful lot of information very very quickly thank you very much but um no that's okay uh these going to be again handled by do these get handled um who manages the lottery and stuff like that do you guys do this or do you turn to the town I have I have a firm I uh MCO Housing Services we uh we do lotteries uh for people all over eastern Mass so um so we happen to do that in uh in house so um so we'll deal with the lotteries and there'll be these are you know three separate projects as to uh dhcd or e hlc sorry um M USC come on that's it and we'll have I'll have three regulatory agreements because you know the the rentals it's different requirements as it relates to profitability and stuff with rentals um then the for sale actually has its its own regulatory agreement and the other one's a 62 plus so that's a different dynamic as well so it really is you know it's three sepc projects so what's contemplated is there'll be a Homeowners Association for the 124 imagine home and um you know they're going to have about um 75% of the funding responsibility and then um the apartments uh I mean not the apartments The Cottages uh will have roughly 20% of the funding responsibility and then the multif family will have about 5% and that basically loosed off on on on um your bedroom count you know the the wells and the and the waste water will be uh substantial expenses so we're and and that generally mimics the area that will be done as well yeah you got talking about you talking about condo associations very quickly and I'm not sure um I did a condo I did U Regency at St okay so um I I imagine you're going to have some sort of homers Association where landscaping and snow removal is handled um okay so and they Master Insurance yep you're going to have the three entities you'll have the homeowners associations for the 124 homes have the owner of the 25 unit multif family probably will be me the owner of the the 40 cottages and they're all under the umbrella of a of a community umbrella trust that have the overall responsibility to deal with the roadway snow plowing common Landscaping Etc um it is the intention that these main roadways will become public so I imagine so but you've got walkways and driveways and stuff like that y will there'll be some and these private drives you know I the the garages would be more of a of a homeowner's expense so um but yeah so there's there's a mix of stuff that will be it will be relatively complicated and so we've got a rough draft but realistically until you know once I get you know D approvals for Wells and and treatment they're going to build in a bunch of requirements and I'll be finishing up with conservation they'll have their own requirements so we'll you know we'll piece it all together but that's the general intent that you know I it's I think it's workable there's enough people and enough uh uh enough value to to cover you know the the cost of Wastewater and Wells um and particularly if the road you know if the main roadways are are taken by the town that'll be a huge burden off of them but that to come in that they won't want to do if it's private so it makes sense and the board was actually like adamant that yeah no this is a subject this is a subdivision that should be public you guys are like everybody else and I'm like hell yeah so another question perit you yeah another question I have and you mentioned this quickly and that is that you'll be handling the lottery handling the manag of the of the rental units um you're moving you're in communities that don't don't necessarily have large affordable housing um staffs in their in their local government so handling it is something that actually works out well for them I imagine yeah yeah and they um I mean I was involved in a large project in Stow before so for the you know for the for sale uh you know once the the units are sold there's not you know once one is being conveyed in the future then you know the town will be involved but on a day-to-day basis there's very little involvement um you know there's a a report that you know that the state will want for the rentals kind of same thing there's an some annual stuff all of the affordable tenants for people that know or don't know um they have to be reer their income has to be recertified every year so this is what I'm saying you get recertification you go Application you got people moving in people moving out um issues with the units that all takes time oh it does it does yeah and that's uh so we happen to do that um but we we do it for a lot of other people because it is cumbersome and um uh it's part part of how I make my living what type of deed restriction how long how long are the deed restrictions on these they're all essentially in perpetuity so can't yeah these aren't going to change that's that's that's really all the state does with anything these were lip so and I say lip as a local Initiative Program through dhcd as compared to m housing that you know the programs do vary a little bit um so the town um you know they've really been involved in since day one and they've been very supportive I I mean shockingly this is probably the largest project that's been built in town and there has nobody at the meetings not a soul at the meetings which Mark I wasna say this is a very large project wow yeah yeah part of it is there was a lot of communication obviously the town had to had to vote in um you know at town meeting they had to vote they spent a million a half dollars for the conservation restriction I was going to ask did you get CPA funding for this from the town how does that work out and the other question is you tol's not that far away from this geographically they're not involved which is surprising to me yeah um and uh yeah so the town did uh I think they're they've got about 55 million into it right now uh between the two components um between what they paid for the land what they paid for the conservation restriction and uh there was some tax credits and the ability to operate golf for another 10 years that was part of the compensation to the um to the golf course uh owners as well um and then I'm paying them a friendly sum if I may ask this is taking only nine holes away from their courses or is it a full is fly um nine holes for the work that I'm doing the the town is acquiring the other nine holes got it so those ultimately will be taken away from the course so they'll end up in at this point about nine years they'll end up with the 18 holes just on the cell they're relocating driving range they're putting in kind of a you know a kind of a local top golf thing they're moving their restaurant and bar over there there so they'll have that you know year round and and if anybody's been over there all of the you know their buildings were all kind of falling down they've been waiting to to do this all at once so they've taken down all that stuff and you know they put a bunch of money into the clubhouse so they're they're reinvesting some of it and um you know kind of right sizing it for for what they see their needs being in the long term it's nice having that type of acreage yeah I mean at 325 Acres it was you know really one of the you know one of the biggest pieces yeah Mark you familiar with Quil Ridge over in Acton uh res Quil Ridge uh did I was I at I know I know you weren't involved in it were you are you familiar with it because this is basically what happened in rqr yeah yes yes I am familiar with that and I I did some work with uh Ron pey that developed that originally so I'm pretty familiar with it I got a feast across the street if you want to buy it um so gee thanks no okay we're moving on we're moving on yes so this is uh in Dunstable um uh uh this is uh a site that is right by the post office I think if you go up one can you go up one slide it just gives you a a better overview of it so up at the the top of the street is the post office it's one no that's across that just go up up or right there no the on the same entrance yeah that's the post office that's on uh it's like 160 164 Pleasant Street okay so was Town Old Land it was an old Gravel Pit uh ironically they did an RFP on this site that I had made a submitt to in 2006 nothing ever happened and then uh I was talking with a friend of mine who lives in town I'm like yeah there was a site it was put great for affordable housing and he was at a meeting literally two weeks later and they were talking about an RFP for the site so uh ended up getting involved designed a project very similar you know same plans as in uh as in um Lancaster um so that Central green that you see that will actually be the the leeching area uh there is some limited Town water in dunable that happens to be in this location so that's a big plus um and here some of the similar elements you've got some common parking you've got some street parking you've got some uh some driveways uh and uh you know the central Focus for the green some other play areas and stuff uh and that goes up to the upper massip poog is the the body of water up there um and we also have the rights to build some a mix juice up there on the top that you're doing at your at you're showing um and so this the town is essentially donating the land so I think I'm paying a dollar a dollar a year for the property is it going to be rental or this is this is intended to be rental wow yep very uh so similar concept we're at the uh at 44 units I've got a few one-bedrooms I've got a you need to have some three bedrooms in family housing at 10% um and so I have 44 units which is five three bedrooms a bunch of two bedrooms and I think I've got three or four one-bedrooms that will will remark like the two bedrooms without a closet um and that keeps me under the 10,000 gallons so um we're able to get X number of units the roadway coming in is reasonably long um so for um and for here we're we're probably going to have to do some redesign because this this was a an old grapple pit it's a Sandy site we bu the water some turtles like to hang out there as well so we're keeping an eye on them now and we'll need I think we will need to make some modifications but um I think we'll keep we'll keep the same unit mix we just have to shift things around a little bit um so we have uh we're kind of working with um natural heritage uh fishing Wildlife now uh we have the lifp approval Town signed off on it State signed off on it so um we're trying to get that resolved so we can uh we can start working with with the town on the actual comprehens perm dunable is the only town around here with the big goose egg for affordable housing they have zero uh which is remarkable to me um but they're really supportive and and um you know excited to uh to do the project and you know asking us what can we do to help with with natural heritage and I'm like yeah I wish you could so um so hopefully we'll get this permited substantially through through the winter and and this can start sometime next year does that project have water access so like people want to can where that not necessar there uh there is uh you know we were kind of showing it originally we had you know that upper parking lot was intended that could could potentially be uh you know for Public Access you know and then natural heritage is like you we can't let people walk down here I'm like all right so that may not happen um but was a nice idea um but yeah so that is the that's the the plan so we're getting the land and uh there'll be a modest subsidy to help offset some of the water and and Sewer costs that we're dealing with um is that a water tower no I don't believe so okay I don't believe so they have that's not they do have a they just put in some wells I think with a small Tower but it's it's further up on the other side just noticing the shadow yeah no I I see what you're looking at but I don't I don't believe that's the water tower believe it's a cell phone yeah um so that's just CL version of it this is the the Bolton site we're talking about or I had mentioned if you are in Bolton where the sugar road comes right on to 117 Colonial candies you see from the highway that's right across the street so um uh again kind of a um you know Cottage sets these were Condominiums these were roughly again 2,000 maybe 2200 square feet so not the the small Cottages but you know some similar Concepts these homes are on you know they're in five clusters and most of them focusing on their own Green Space tied together with walkways we kept the you know the um vehicular access for the most part on the edges so that we could have you know Green Space in the middle that makes it a little more liabil livable from my perspective are these all single units these are all single units yeah yep yep so single unit condos I do a lot of those um because it's sheared land yeah it's yeah it's just one piece it's yeah if you got a A Condominiums and and they're attached it's a tow house if not it's the same same structure legally okay um yeah so if you go to the next site we actually got a um you know kind of a Drone footage of the finished site um so again a lot of open space in the middle the different groups are connected front porches Green Space so you know it's a nice nice spot really happy with how it come out people that live there uh are happy and U you know it's a nice nice location for for what it is all right this is just another little one that I had done in adum um we're just talking about Cottage stuff these are you know six houses these were 16 to 1800 squ feet this is not about a half an a care um but kind of one of the first really tighter detach ones that I did couple of pictures you know off the street was gazebo with really heavily landscaped in the middle but it was very tight in the middle um but just you know few houses and a walking distance to downtown and you know the train station what did those go for just quank the oh beat now oh these are one excuse me um these are probably 1.2 so this was back in like 2011 2012 when you know the world had ended and things were just starting to come out and you know they were I think I sold those in six to seven which was a good amount of money when I here I'm used to there there was two out of the six yeah so the site was I bought it from another guy it was approved with eight town homes that were terrible just an awful design and uh so I bought it based on what the criteria was and I mean a lot of the I mean the Lancaster one I bought that what did the affordables go in there for what do they resale the numbers are all the same back then go back then it was probably I don't know 100 I mean 185 200 oh my goodness I can't imagine having one of those as affordable yeah yeah so no it's a it's a really wonderful spot it's right out of uh right out of the center like right down the street from like Trader Joe's and Starbucks area you know the area and the train station it's uh really a great great little spot so all right uh so that's it what some people ask is like economically how do the Cottages work where I'm doing them for rent it's uh and like I said the infrastructure can be challenging so for you know for Lancaster I I save some money where I bought it with the infrastructure in place uh Dunstable you know not paying anything for it I have another site that's an RFP that we're trying to negotiate out the same I mean uh it's really some demolition that needs to go along with it but that's the you know the the focus of it is to get you know the land essentially for nothing um with with a longm count them all as affordable they count them all towards affordable just like we did with the world right yeah yeah no but they don't count all is Affordable because they're not rental yeah oh okay so we only have like I think we have about 17 new affordables in there or maybe it's only 12 yeah so with that that's the beauty of the rentals is they you know as long as you have 20% affordability they all count so um and that's where all the you know and these days the rentals is where there's been you know more of the money is is there from a financing perspective you go up and down 495 you've seen a ton of sites uh and people have directed towards that there's not that many for sale projects happening you know they're mostly smaller ones that um that you know that we're involved in in the office and from a Housing Services uh side so there's there's really not as much for for sale activity that's going on that there's there's less and less land that's available inside 495 that's that's buil if it's buildable they're you know it's expensive and they're putting in rentals to be able to make it work so you know the cottage rentals finding sites that are that can handle enough to make it viable that don't have site constraints that make it unviable getting support in some cases is part of it um so it it really is location by uh location by location to see what will work but you know I'm talking location always back to the um still still one with the golf coures so you're building the two rental projects the um multif family and the um the rental cottages correct are you building the um market rate as most likely I own everything so I may bring in uh I I may bring in to someone to help with the building every deal with the building um it's it's it's a big site it's uh it's a lot of money so um yeah so I may bring in a builder partner per se um but haven't quite decided yet focusing on getting the approvals in place so but it's nice to know another developer that can go ahead and work on 40b in town so yeah and I you know we I do a lot of work with with towns and it um you know building a a house in in Westboro now for that they had a piece of land we had a demo house and put it on it and I I tell you do with a single house is pain in the butt I don't really do it and I'm like you know it's taking me you know six weeks to get a demo permit and a building permit I'm like oh my God I'm going crazy um but they were looking for one house and um you we've done work with them on a couple of different initiatives and programs and they're like you Mark can you participate I'm like I got the perfect house so we're doing the um I if I wasn't building that that exact house that I'm proposing for I probably wouldn't have done it but I'm doing one of the three bedroom Cottages so the house that we took down was on the slab they're like yeah we want the new one on the slab I'm like perfect so so we just took that down today actually so all right yeah hi anybody um here yeah just one more question um maybe maybe say for May but do you do you have experience like your need property in urban settings yeah I I would say more Suburban Urban not like Boston downtown no it that hasn't been my thing I just I I developed the property in in malb and it ended up is getting bigger than what just a different design you know a multi-story building and all that stuff it's just it's it's just it's a really different business for and finding out what it is that you know so I ended up selling that I have another I have another project that's a bigger design like that and I may end up doing the same um because it it's just not it's not my forte so um to date I really I haven't done it I haven't built anything like that I've got a little bit of you know development uh experience but not not at downtown Boston or anything like that so maybe if you have references for that that would be I think interesting for our town yeah people people who do that is a forte to do Urban settings yeah well I think I don't and with all the respect I don't consider down downtown a I wouldn't consider to be Urban you know if someone's kind of do if you're looking for a five or six story building that's different but you know building in a in a denser environment you know an apartment building a mod size I wouldn't you know again it would depend on the scope of it of uh of what would be reasonable um you know in the design but our air of Commons is going to be the high is going to be four story which one um air comments it's the one that the Noah um is the group um we talked about it I forget where it is that's okay it's over on fitzburg road over by uh Anderson Funeral Home to the left hand side okay where flag used to be and now um Sydney Landscaping yeah yeah and I mean for for for larger properties you know for a couple hundred units there's there's there's several groups that are all that are build it's a beautiful project you know whether it's an Avalon or you know um whatever the different groups are they they do a nice job and it's nothing that I couldn't do it any better I'm not going to try and they just hugely Capital intensive um so if it's a a couple hundred unit project I can I can develop it and bring somebody in but it isn't something that I would do independently but now we' got a contact you know but yeah no I I work with those groups on different things so if you have a a piece that you think is uh you know that that type of project is what you have in mind for the parcel um yeah then let me know I can I can talk with some people and try to find a group that would be a you know a good match but what you looking to do it's nice to know people that know people I know people that know people one things that we're really interested in figuring out how to do more colge right you know yeah and that's why you know like I was telling you that we were looking at to see if there would be a uh zoning change a zoning byw you know or or whatever that maybe create a new category and um but you know again you say that you usually work underneath the umbrella the 40 BS instead of looking at a change in zoning but you also mentioned some other towns are looking at possible change they're try yeah they want to do it they I I I've really had very little resistance in I'd say the last six seven years in any of these towns that are out here they you know I think everybody thinks that we've got enough you know 3,000 square foot pregnant Colonials uh you know population's aging is no big surprise people can't afford the homes people that are older don't really need that much home or want to stay in it and there's no place to go so you know the rentals uh they they serve a purpose cottages on a for sale basis can serve the same purpose you know but it's um you know it's challenging to do anybody that you know to do anything for under half a million dollars these days is really hard even these cottages at you know 1400 square feet you're going to be at that price before you um are in the build if you're going to sell them so um it's just where it it's at by the time you you you put everything together it's everything has just gotten expensive fortunately there's still not enough being built so there's enough buyers out there but it's that's why we want to try to increase our inventory as much as possible yeah just so that the prices can come down yeah and I think if the more you have it it will have an impact locally um and you know the cottage rentals is just I I think it's a nice niche for you know these it's it's not you know um you've got a couple of larger properties here but in you know many of the other towns that are a 200 unit property if it's not like right on the highway or something it's you know it's like it came in from out of space um so this fits well if the vernacular is more consistent with a you know with a more rural community and again you know air is not exactly that anymore but parts of it is and um so I think the look and feel works and the density is not crazy but you can do a really wonderful um property at you know six seven units an acre and um people can have their own space and all right that's good um anybody um one of the participants anybody have any else to State I want to say thank you this has been very helpful very illustrative well happy to help so there anything in town or Pacific sites you want going to give you a perspective on them we got your contact I'm happy you know we'll be contact all right everybody who's online thank you very much for joining us I do appreciate it and before we leave I have to make a motion to I mean again public comments and questions I think I asked so uh can I have a motion to adjourn Let's see we do we have to do all three planning board board out I think they're all even so you're right C made a motion r second quick R seconds all in favor hi hi hi hi thank you thanks Janet thank you very much everybody