##VIDEO ID:xgCpr1Yfq74## all right good evening my name is Kurt fres Kowski I'm the chairman of the finance committee and welcome to the finance committee meeting on Thursday October 17th 2024 at 6 o' in the air Town Hall this is a hybrid meeting this meeting of the finance committee will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor particip IP ation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID number 86 8777519121 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly antonellis assistant Town manager at ATM a.m. us or 978-772-4864 um the first thing I would like to do is make a motion to amend the agenda and just ordering thing what I would the motion would be to have the department head uh police chief who's been good enough to join us speak first do a quick look at the financial reporting and then move to the senior center um and then we have a little bit more time for that um so that's my motion I will second the motion okay all those in favor I I Jim I good thank you well very good um before we get to those items we do need to review and approve the October 3rd 2024 meeting minutes uh has everyone had a chance to look at those any questions changes additions no uh the only thing was under on the first page under item on outside committee updates the first bullet rate review there was a rates will be set next meeting on October 1st at 4M our meeting was October 3rd so I don't think we s the next view was in fact October 1st so yes I don't remember what it was but we should fix that all right I'm going to change that to October 3rd RM okay anything else that that was it okay we have a motion i' like to make a motion to approve the minutes second okay all those in favor i i j i okay approved okay next item on the agenda is a uh update on outside committees um do you want to do rate review um sure I mean I can jump in too I mean yeah so the rate rate Review Committee it approved there was no increase in um annual fees for fiscal year 2025 no fees at all no increase in fees correct yeah well that's remain the same recommendation of the rate review which will presented to the select board for for approval got it okay interesting wasn't there was like 40K shortfall no 3,000 oh okay well yeah where did that 40K come from did I just remember well that was the um that was the Supple no supplemental so it was 180,000 it was only around 13 but we weren't um we counted Dan hadn't entered in the bulk permits correct and uh with taking that into account yeah some of it was I think what you were reading um Andrew was there was a $180,000 I believe from the town and it was a $36,000 okay supplement okay yeah so I think that's what you're looking at got it cool um the capital planning committee met for the first time yesterday and it was only a um sort of an introductory meeting and uh the uh Treasurer uh Barbara uh introduced the group to clear. goov as a tool for Capital planning so that's really all we did and then the um department heads will be starting to put their cap request into that software and then um at our next they're due by October 31st and then our next meeting will be in um November I'm not sure I apologize and we'll start uh start to look at the capital planning for the upcoming budget year that's the updates there real quick Eric Eric join meom oh good hi Eric welcome can you hear us yes yes I can hear you okay very good good so I just want to note just real quickly Eric and JY are joining us by Zoom I I will be there 15 minutes in person okay all right we we will hold we will keep your seat warm okay um then the next item on the amended agenda then is a uh hopefully a short report from the police chief good evening evening good evening Chief welcome thank you very much for making the time to come in no issues at all is there um chair is there any questions I can answer straight off or what do we want to what do we want to know about in particular anything how's how's the recruiting process going how about that can you spell that for the record yes I will um it's ongoing we're uh we're uh in a constant state of uh recruiting hiring onboarding um we have uh one in the academy right now uh we have one in background uh doing the background investigation uh for a transfer so somebody won't have to be in the academy um and then we have uh we just had uh a couple um interviews um so we're actively uh actively trying to bring people on um the uh it's a uh it's a buyer Market out there um and uh you know when I when I started it was uh you know you were probably in a pool of a couple hundred people trying to you know buy for a job now people are interviewing us for the job God we just had that over the weekend which you know is is the way it is and I you know and I think it's smart especially in in a in a buyer's market you know the the officers are uh looking to uh see the Departments that are vying for them M so uh you know they were they wanted to uh see the department see the facilities luckily you know we have uh you know some really goodlook facilities um and uh did a a short ride along with us so it was uh different for us but uh I can I can understand it and uh I think think that's going to be the wave of the future that we're going to have to sell ourselves right yeah so okay thanks I think um the really again this was just the idea was here is that we usually just meet uh or get a presentation in in the budget season in February and March which is good and but we thought maybe it would be just another again I I can't stress enough quick and snapshot just to see uh how we're doing uh again one thing stuff that has passed in other words the other thing that comes to mind for example is that we um oh my God all the lockers all the new lockers and everything those have been put in and everything yeah um so all our uh all our past Capital has uh been completed um our uh uh some of our final ones were the locker rooms um which uh had had several components into it but it's been uh it's been completed um and it's a uh they're very very sharp looking very functional I can tell you that it it has changed the way that the officers are storing their equipment um which means it's it's getting less abused you know it's you know it's not squished into stuff um so they have a main Locker that's ventilated where they can keep you know their their stuff that they wear on their uh on their bodies um and then they have a uh they have individual um storage lockers for bulk items such as our uh Hazmat gear and uh Patrol Banks things like that so it's it's really improved the way that they're they're uh storing it uh storing their stuff um some of the other past ones uh we uh the um patrol room uh and the uh the the supervisor's offices have all been redone um remarkable remarkable difference in in just in their workspaces um and uh you know from everybody uh you know it just really improves the the work atmosphere when there in there so it's a super Improvement and and we're continuing the uh the one that's outstanding is the one the capital project that we're uh in right now and that's going to be for the admin um uh Wing so that's going to be down uh the deputy Chief's office the office manager and my office um those are uh uh uh in process now uh it uh things are just delayed when they come in but uh we've heard that the items have arrived at the warehouse and they're just ready to to pick an install date with Chuck um and then there's some electrical work that has to get done you know to coordinate all of that so um we're hoping uh that by the uh by uh this calendar year that that project will be done which is which is good for us cuz usually we're uh you know trying to get it on the uh fiscal year trying to get it completed by the fisc so we're we're pretty confident that the calendar year this this project will be done and our capital projects will be wrapped up um what else we got going on um so uh we just finished our first quarter of the uh the fiscal year um so we're uh to to take a quick look at at at our at our for our sheet uh quarter 1 we're at uh 18.2% spent we're supposed to be at 25 it's a quarter um but where uh our numbers kind of fluctuate um as to what we're spending at the time so that number also includes a cruiser which is about $80,000 um outfitted so that's just a you know that's just a big chunk that's you know just hasn't been spent so um some of the things that we really look at um because we know basically all of those lines are going to get spent down so we really kind of focus on individual lines rather than the whole sheet of the police department so we look at the department wages and the overtime time so our wages um we're at 16.5% spent and our overtime is at 11.8% spent um so we're uh we're you know that there's such a difference in that not because we're you know we don't need the the money right at this point we just don't have the people that we're paying right now um at some point that is going to catch up um we're also going to use that buffer in there in the event that we need to send more people to the academy than and uh we plan for so we plan for one person in the academy a year um we're uh you know very with with the way that hiring goes we're probably looking at more than one one person in the academy year outfitting alone is a a remarkable expense so you're you're basically outfitting them twice one once for everything that they need for the academy and then for everything that they need to be a police officer when they get out of the academy that's interesting yeah so it's uh it's it's a remarkable expense so that's why when we get a transfer camp candidate um that is interested coming it's you know we you know it's a it's a bonus oh okay you know so we're that's interesting so it's not only just not uh you know and then the fact that we just don't have that body for the Academy you know so we're paying somebody really you know where not realizing the effects on the street until six months later I have a question sure uh if you send somethingone to the academy are they in the hook for staying for some length of time or that they can leave or they uh they can leave so it's that's why we do a really good vetting process to try and uh figure out figure out that why they they're coming here and um but the fact of the matter is if we can keep somebody for two to three years um industry standard is you're doing pretty good at this point really yeah interesting why would people want to transfer in out of curiosity Grass Is Always Greener is it okay just a fact of fact of life right now doesn't necessarily mean it's green there but are people coming from like as far as Boston or is it just say that again are people just like is it mostly local or is it people coming from far in any direction they just want to change or just had of curiosity uh just recently we just had people getting out of the profession oh interesting you know it's a u it's it's just a strange atmosphere for us sure that uh that we're in but um to stay on the positive you know where uh you know we're constantly trying to find the right candidate to bring in what we don't want to do is just put anybody in the in into the into boots because uh that could be just you know just a problem waiting to happen on on on a multitude of levels and we just don't need that we've we've learned historically in my 30 years that you know that isn't the right thing to do um so uh between Department wages and overtime yes it looks like we're we're you know way underspent for the first quarter but there's there's a reason for that and that that that could catch up and I just uh you know we talked about don't look at our overall page for all our expenses because um the uh Cruisers are going to take up you know almost $100,000 right off the top of that um and then we have still have maintenance agreements that come in and those just kind of whack those pretty good so our our real variable is in the wages uh in the over time line good and again that's just the first quarter and and that I I do want to interject that's one thing as we look at this you know uh trying to do for you know an update is that we're looking at a quarter and stuff so Ian that's just that's just the way our count the fiscal year runs and everything too yeah and you know and if we see something that is you know Way Off the Mark then we got to kind of look at it and and and find out what's happening and that very well could be you know quarter one we just might have had a a whole ton of training that we needed to do and that just absorbed a lot of overtime uh for that and then that would you know tend to even out over the other over the the remaining three quarters um but it would be something that we want to make sure we keep an eye on that we don't keep that level of overtime training at that at least discretionary overtime training okay so so that's you're where you are Financial any other notes on that the finances um for so that's for uh you know the police department um if if us you know uh you flipped over to and looked at our dispatch um budget um that's kind of like a uh the the it looks like we're way over spent there right now but we're really not our receipts from our reimbursements for the reimbursement grants haven't haven't St to commit yet um and what'll happen is those will uh I I generally have you know shock when I what happened and like well I think from what I've learned over the years now and and is that we have that we we work in that share dispatch environment so we get reimbursed from shiry the state there's there's a couple streams of money coming in yeah and I just wanted to touch base on that real quick once I just go over this on the on the IMA with Shirley um so uh one of the things that we can you know we can kind of look at you know to to kind of see where we're at and kind of gauge rather than look at um our uh some of the things that look like were way overspent such as our department overtime um there are there there is some you know overtime needs that need to be you know done there but we're really at a um our wages are at uh two 2.2% um overspent which isn't a lot for what we do and and that's not say And the receipts haven't come in yet on that as well so we're um we're confident that once the uh once we start getting the reimbursements from the 911 Grant those will even R out um so while we're uh talking about personel uh wise there we do have uh some uh movement going on in our uh Communications section um we have uh two new full-time employees that are being trained right now and we have uh um a prdm that's also coming on board so um the they that'll start to reduce the need for the overtime hitting the overtime line so all of this stuff is going to start to even out uh all the budgets uh on that so so um yeah Animal Control is our other other one that we have um and the animal control is right on the markets uh that's a um uh stien paid position so it just it happens evenly over the course of the year um so back to the uh dispatch so since I think maybe the last time we met um we really couldn't hit a um a real solid number because it hadn't been finalized yet um but we did work out an Ima would be um the town of Shirley for uh operating the Communication Center with them um so for the year that we're in right now um their assessment is 175 um the following year it's going to be 200,000 and then the year after that the third year of the IMA it's going to be 225,000 so um we uh we were able to with the the help of uh Mr poman in in in the town of Shirley really recognizing through through the what we were able to show show them recognizing that um that the they're they needed to kick in uh more to to have that understanding in 911 uh the 911 Department played a big role also in helping everybody understand what they should be paying in that so wow that's great so the good news is that the the town of air itself is paying what it should be paying it's not paying anybody else's portion of this um 911 uh with with surely paying more 911 is going to be reducing their liabilities as well so the the ultimate goal is for this to be uh a true share uh Communication Center wow that's good that's great news uh yeah um and then just another thing Personnel wise um we're uh we're holding a u a promotional process in December it's it's under advertisement right now uh internally uh is how we how we do them at first um so we're going to be hopefully uh having some sergeants be promoted to uh to move into the positions that we have uh going on great thank you thank you any other questions from anybody for the chief thanks thank you great thank you very much thank you okay um the next item on the amended agenda was uh the financial reports and um Robert uh you we may ask you to help us with this um we got um I'm going to call the first report uh in this again this is something new entirely new and we're looking at doing and uh Carly sent a copy of that to us and um it consist of uh a snapshot of the budget and then uh at the end of it is some balances and everything um I'm I was hoping barara was going to be here to work on this and she prepared it what I am going to suggest to the committee um is maybe we take some time since we only got this what two or three days ago go maybe take some time and look at this and um and maybe Circle back and talk about this more at our next meeting and and and have and then that way we I mean I I just glanced at it and stuff but um but let me ask is my first impression is this is what I was envisioning again this is the new thing is that snapshot of the budget and some balances of the stable ization funds and things like that and any other quick beginning observations from anybody in the committee are interesting that's what I expected yep so Mr chair just briefly what we'll do each month the fincom will get this report which shows you the year-to date and the monthly um expenditures of all of the budget lines which you can see and then um attached to that is the are the balance funds um for for example the udag stabilization Capital stabilization so each month first of the month it'll be transmitted to the fincom it'll be posted on the fincom web page as well for the public so right now anybody from the public could go to your page and click on this report as well and I think when barara can come future meeting we can get into more detail and we're all ears if there's information that is maybe missing something else you'd like to see so forth but I do think this is a good uh start as a as a monthly snapshot in real time yes so it's great all right thank you great great and thank and and and please tell Barbara thank you very and Carly for thank you for her efforts okay um Eric did you you want to take over I took the first sure I'll type them up and send them to you okay sorry HT okay let me just keep track here okay so um the next item on the agenda is um the senior center and I want to preface this by um personally uh apologizing to the uh Senior Center committee and Dr petroy um in my effort to start Dialogue on the senior center with the finance committee um I uh at our last meeting I should have asked you you folks to come and join us and I apologize for that oversight so um so as we uh what we did discuss at that meeting was um in general the idea was to start taking a look at the senior center and seeing um what thoughts we would have on it and uh some uh were generated and uh as we I mentioned summarized in that meeting is that we would put together a list of these which I did and um uh then we were going to circle back at this meeting and look at those questions again and uh discuss them further um I doc I see Dr tros and the committee is here so I thought it would be a great opportunity uh I shared the questions with the group here um in fact we do have them on the screen um under word I think word y um and would I think would very efficient if Dr rroy and the committee want to come up and we just start addressing the questions directly and then um we can get up to speed on that and then um continue to work with the senior center committee on this project which is very valuable to the town and um and has had and I think as and has had a lot of work done already so I'm verely interested in in hearing and uh so to start I do we have the the questions up here and and Dr petroy and committee do you want to just just go down to the list then did you would that be satisfactory yeah I mean I first when the finance committee I approached uh Kurt end of August beginning of September and mentioned that the F that the senior site selection in building committee was in the process of uh completing its work and we were hoping to at some point engage with the finance committee um I may have jumped the gun a little bit and kind of moved us further along in the process and perhaps I should have so for any confusion that that may have caused I apologize um but I think it would be helpful to just kind of briefly review how we got where we're at so in November of 2023 the select board appointed the senior center site selection and building committee to find a site for uh a new Senior Center and to engage with an architect to have some concept ual design of that building done um and then prepare to go to town meeting for the purposes of having the adequate funding so over the last almost a year now we have been meeting almost every two weeks kind of moving that process along and um and then at the end of the summer we were approaching a time where we were going to be able to identify a site and begin to kind of drill down into what the build building would look like and kind of start estimating what the costs might be which is pretty much where we're at now um and again I what I would encourage your committee or any committee members to do is if there are questions or um misconceptions about where the committee is at in any particular process feel free to reach out either to any of the committee members individually I mean it would be great if you could attend the meetings or or look at the meetings but there is no harm in we're all in the email system you know where are you on the budget or what site did you select or you know how do you feel about the architect or anything like that um because I think that those one toone conversations can be helpful just in kind of bringing you up to speed and I fully understand that no individual member of the committee can speak for the committee so it's not a case of any particular member is is making a definitive statement as to the committee's policy but I think that that connection can help inform your decision making as the process moves forward um so hopefully we'll be able to kind of communicate well um and move the process along I know that much of the town has been anxious to see this brought to fruition and I was just going to add that though this this Senior Center site selection and building committee has been hard at work over the past year the efforts to build a senior center date back to 2018 um pre pandemic and so this has been something that's been on the priority um list for the town for quite some time yes just to make a quick clarification for what Mr Karan said we are in a feasibility State at this point in time so we were authorized by the select board to do the task that Dennis pointed out part of that task was to hire a professional architectural team qualified in construction of senior centers so we went out to bid we did an RFP we selected we had I don't know five applicants we got it down to three and two and then finally picked a gentleman who that we're working with who's done 30 senior centers in the state of Massachusetts and somewhere in the vicinity of 60 feasibility studies we're using his as part of his contract the obligation he owes us is to work through the process with us which he's done to develop the size of the building the site that needs to the number of parking spaces the size of the site that's required he also signed simultaneous to him working with us on the design process we were taking a look at the 50 Town owned properties with an objective to try to find a free pieace of land that's owned by the town we also went out and did two rfps in two different years for purchase of land with no response so we had an effort to even if we would find a piece of land that was appropriate try to find the funds to buy it so at the end of the day we ended up with a excellent piece of land we've done test hlls on the land we've hired environmental scientists right at the moment to finish an En the U phase one environmental as well as a habitat assessment because the property does sit within a area of critical environmental concern in town and it's also within it what's called the natural heritage so my experience on the planning board and being in construction and development has helped this understand this process and because of things that came before us we understand what needs to be done to make sure the land land is appropriate uh we basically have determined that it's a great piece of land we're going to break that off I think we showed you in the in the material that we're going to break off one three 3 to Four Acre piece of land from the 76.5 that are currently there under DPW so that's going to give us the opportunity to concentrate only on what's required on that three acres we won't have to investigate the whole wetlands and whatever might be appropriate around the entire 76 Acres so there's been a continuous effort and work been going on here for quite some time um as far as the development aspects are concerned so we're basically approaching it just the same way private developable would approach it and in researching the land looking at what will fit how many parking spaces drainage requirements and so forth and so on and doing the testing so if there's any confusion about the fact that the land's not appropriate that's the misconception so we've been working additionally with DPW continuously through the entire process so our DPW director and our the engineering team at DPW has been very helpful they provided us with machines to do testing they provided us with whatever I've asked them for and they've attended in their on the committee with us so members of the committee include uh Dan vanel book the director of the DPW it includes Katie of course who's a professional Jim perad who's basically uh you know in that kind of business so we have a number of people qualified on the committee to take a look at this project with the ultimate goal we have to get back to the board of Select with a with a uh recommendation however we're still in very early stages because we're only in the feasibility study we're not in a position to start a building right away we don't have any funding to go into the final design drawings so we have we're basically trying to finish the feasibility study with the funds that have been given to us by the state and by the town and we have a a excellent balance there to finish what we have to do so by the time we get to the next step which probably is to try to find funds to take it through the fin design including we have to do complete site design we have to do the whole civil engineering package so as it turns out one of the things we found out through the through the architect verbally but not only that through the state looking at the documents is that in essence the the the appropriate term here is that the architect represents the design team and the design team is headed by the architect but subset to that is mechanical engineering electrical engineering civil engineering Plumbing all the the disciplines that required to build a building so it looks like it's a large fee to the architect but it's a subset fee you know to get all the other disciplines under that fee so that's kind of where we are as far as the feasibility study so I don't want anyone to be alarm that we're we're ready to go we're trying to get to the final recommendation and the budgets that we've been using have been provided to us based on two completed facilities that he's done in the last three or four years so the real numbers have been used in Real Construction uh numbers what that's what he's provided to us so he's made available to us the timy and who I put it together but the the subsets of of the divisions will work for those those buildings so the entire category is basically summarized in a total but it's broken down into all the parts that are needed so when we give a report in the future we probably are not at this level ready to give a report of every single one of those items I mean what we are basically saying the building is going to be X soft costs are going to be more site development costs you know all the permit the entire package basically including one unfortunate situation but fortunate or unfortunate there are no utilities at the site we've picked so we had to go out national grid for engineering to bring power down the street and the water department is currently working on a design at no cost which we'll be able to bid for the water line to be brought to the site so DPW initially basically mentioned you know with probably going to have to go out for that kind of design but they've come back and and off it so they're designing at their engineering department so we'll have a set of documents in the next month or so to go out and price the water line although we have a sum in the budget now for what Dan had already given us as a budget for what he estimated through a consultant so we're going to we're getting closer and closer to real numbers as we look at a draft budget and um and if I I could interject and I know that a couple of weeks ago there was some and understandably there were some sticker shock on the committee um when some of the numbers started getting tossed back and forth about I can't believe it would ever be that much as far as back as three years ago I talked to a a couple at least two perhaps three who had recently completed or were in design stages for senior centers or community centers municipal buildings in in Massachusetts and at that time they were giving us reports of right around $1,000 a square foot mhm um the the town of Littleton is currently halfway through the construction of a senior center which is slightly larger than the one that we're proposing at 16,700 Square ft their cost is 18.2 million so as we work through the costs we're not and and kind of watching what the architect is giving us etc etc etc these numbers that we've been seeing are consistent with what we've been seeing in other towns similar buildings in Massachusetts and although I understand that people are concerned that it's you know it's a big number the big number is I think unavoidable yeah none of us were happy when we I mean I'm used to buing for a lot less than I'm sure you was going to say we're paying Boston prevailing rates out here right yeah we have to do that but when I first saw heard $1,000 a foot I the first thing that went through my mind was we got to fire this guy there's something wrong you but then I it's a it's a big learning curve it's what I'm getting at we're all in a learning curve and yeah it turns out that the way they approach it is somewhat different um because I'm used to talking about building square foot numbers and then adding all the site and soft courts and ever but the numbers he put out right away were the total cost so you subset never even got into that discussion it was a project cost it's probably better to refer to it as a project cost than a building cost is what I'm getting at to avoid confusion that includes all the design it's the whole thing everything every piece of it at this point Administration all that good time exactly so we're really making an effort now with with the grant that we have and working internally to maybe save a million dollars in the first part of the project we've got you know um a land for free which could be wor 6 $700,000 we've got a $300,000 plus grant and we're often running in the testing and stuff like that so those protected fees which I even thought would be high we've got solid numbers for so we're only spending much smaller amounts for the engineering part of it because of the size of the lot and the Simplicity of the lot and whatnot um so yeah it's it's it's a Dreadful thing to think it's that much money but Dennis is right they told us and I we had before this AR Tech was selected we did a one other feasibility study in the past um it never came to fruition but during that process we had another architect it was Abacus I believe and he was sewn around 1,000s a foot a while back so we went through the process to not only determine what the real numbers are but to get over this block of um cost which is amazing sticker me it's just thank you for that right I I don't I'm not sure I I can only speak for myself I don't think my concern is that the architect or whatever was overcharging or or whatnot you know just you know um you know just trying to Goose their profit or something like that I I I don't you know yes costs a ton to build a small house building costs are a ton um I I don't know if that that was kind of the specific concern more so just the general total y size of the building and everything in it and around it that brings it to $16 million and while we can compare to other towns in the in the region um I think Littleton has a slightly larger population so I don't know that just comparing littleton's cost to hours would be the the the best option and that's one of the things that we're doing right now is putting together a comparables list with recent local towns recent new builds um to get an idea and unfortunately where we are now there's a a big difference between pre-co builds and postco builds so um I've been working on that with another one of the committee m members Ellen Fitzpatrick to get together a list of of comparables um we did arrive at answer the other part of your question we did arrive at that number of 14,000 square ft based on the population of the town and the intended uses when we were um designing the program uh and knowing the space that we have right now and what works and what doesn't work in that space and the ability to reach out to a larger and Broad broader segment of older adults um the executive office of Elder Affairs it recommends 10 square foot per senior um which would bring the town of air to a 22,000 foot building we're not going anywhere near that number um we're at 14,000 square ft so uh we also have several seniors in that we wouldn't expect to use the senior center correct that are in facilities that they're just not coming right you're not expecting I don't know if those are included in our total number of senior population but again those I don't think we would expect them to come use facilities the the metric as far as how many seniors are in town is is the number that the state bases our state aid the um formula grant is based on how many seniors there are in town on the most recent census it has nothing to do with what your current participation numbers are so I find it best to keep all of those things kind of similar across so that you're always comparing apples and apples and and to speak to that concern about the size of the building a little bit as part of the architecture and the selection of the architect process and also um when Katie was working on just kind of how the room should be divided we visited a number of different senior centers perhaps four or five members of the committee saw four or five different senior centers and I spoke with a number of senior center directors as well universally what we heard is don't build it too small because for a number of them they had constructed the building and then 10 years later were looking to add on to it in some manner or another and some of them didn't even make it 10 years yeah and I we never heard gez you know we could have gotten by with a little less and and I think that part of that reason is this structure should last 30 to 50 years I mean we are not only building for the seniors who are alive today living in air but we are building a municipal structure which will you know long outlive all of us and and the number of uses that it can be put to by Future Generations you know well and not even future Generations the town of air has over 220 older adults right now we are 25% senior here in town that number is expected to grow over time America is aging air is aging right along with it we are expecting the number of older adults in town to grow until the year 20 20 2060 sorry it will not even Peak or Plateau until 2060 so who who we have right now versus who will be in the building 5 years from now will be dramatically different um so we're trying to build a right siiz building that will fit for for the cost of the building and for the time that we expect to use it that's going to be a right siiz building going forward premature question what how do we expect to fund it I guess is my what types of mechanisms are we going to use for that so the so if I let's let's uh I'm not sure though direct did we jump off no no no actually that's what I was just going to use this as an opportunity because we I've been making sort of notes here as we go along we've been answering a lot of pieces of the questions and stuff so so the cost of the land is free just okay y the cost of the the building and we talked about the whole project cost is is coming in yeah the project cost um is currently at 16.6 million that is and estimation that's there are lotss of factors that are going to move around there you gave you gave a great summary of of how the costs were determined and and you know it's an ongoing Pro that was really than well done so you do it again if you want so so then in terms of the ongoing costs once the center is open that's something that's under development as well uh I met with um Chuck the facilities director and he put together for me an estimated yearly facilities related costs it was very thorough um then on top of that I need to add in my estimated Staffing increases and programming increases but from a facili perspective his estimate is right around 90,000 for the year um and if there's a custodial contract the labor on that would be another 20,000 at my earliest estimates right now I think I would have between 50 and 75,000 for um I'd like to have one and a half more staff members in the building so and then um the any increases in programming are going to be small numbers compared to the numbers I just said to you so um you know so that that rolls up into somewhere around 200,000 again these are estimates we are also checking in um we have calls out to the two most recently um completed senior centers by the architect this architect um to see where they've been open about a year now to see where their operating costs are coming in um Chuck's um estimates were based on the expenses and items that he has in all of the you know Town Hall police fire DPW um and looking at the you know this the site plan and the the floor plan for um that we have to date so I think they're a good educated guess but like all the other things you know it's a it's an estimate okay I have a comment and a question yes J uh so the comment is the um I don't know I guess you guys put up some number from from Lon uh Lon is a more affluent Town than a uh you know nobody's comparing litton's High School to A's High School um because the you know I so I and and L this a bigger town so I still think that if we could keep the cost down a little bit it will be much more pable um the so I don't know if there's any room for you know a little bit downward revision I understand that you know this is a a building for the next 50 years so um but I think that it's a little hard to sell something such a long term um I don't know if one did you know if other Town construction was also you know made with such a you know vision in mind the other thing was that last time at our meeting Bob mentioned that uh there's possibility of having non union uh contractors bid with this no no I understand that's why I'm asking about the funding so Jen if I if I may just summarize real quick um and then Dr patro can um the committee can fish is um as far as comparing with Littleton you started mentioning the comp you were also doing other comparability studies so um and then um the your next question about the uh the private developer that's going that's another question that we're GNA we're going to come to Jen a little further that's like two or three down I I'll okay so chime in on this one regarding the uh cost and whatnot yes it's an objective and it has been our objective since the beginning to try to determine the best price per square foot that we can get but forget price per square foot that's prevailing Marketplace that's that's almost IM material why would you say that because we have we we don't really have control over price per square foot of course we don't that's what we're trying to do we're trying to determine we have a whole process that has to continue after we get designed to price out every single piece decide if we're going to have board we're going to have paint we're going to have trim whatever the components are the ceiling type so we'll be looking intensely through the oets he's going to are you suggesting that the the trim and the paint is more impactful to the cost of the project than the overall size of the building no those things all of I'm just saying our goal is that's what JY was trying to get to okay that will be determined too through through more work so I mean for this particular meeting I mean it may be a lengthier discussion than we can get into on that matter but I hear your concern that do we need all this or couldn't we get by with something smaller right um or is this excessive for a town of our size and I think the answer when we drilled down with that with with Katie is you know what kinds of programs will we be able to offer um how many more people will be able to attend the center um what kind of as the architect explained and as many Senior Center directors have gone over with us the big three things in terms of an aging population our Physical Fitness Nutrition and socialization to the extent that this bill building improves those things those three things for our senior population it will be a success you will get far more bang for your buck from this building than almost any other building in town because people who age in in their homes will have better nutrition will be physically fit longer which will mean they will literally live longer and they will live better that's what this building is about now at at 14, 14,500 Square ft we'll at a later date perhaps go over how many square feet is the fitness room the commercial kitchen the activity rooms the administrative spaces Etc but I think the building is needed and I think that we can in fact justify that um but and I think as as I mentioned last time I was here that what it means to be a senior is a really varied concept it's like when you're 60 something and recently retired or not even retired yet what your needs are are very different than when you're in your late 80s and early 90s and so being able to provide space and programming to people across that spectrum is huge and in the existing Center we can't do that we have two rooms and we can barely program those two rooms at the same time because there isn't enough parking so so you know when I look at and and thank you I that was that was said as well or better than I would have said it so thank you um you know in the spaces when you have them spread out like this and you have multiple rooms you can provide that Spectrum so you know in the the big downstairs room we would have a a large movement focused exercise classes going on for younger and more able-bodied seniors during the day those are very intimidating to our older seniors so I need a space that's not right there in the front that is a little bit more removed upstairs and this space over here for folks who are rehabbing from knee surgeries who are rehabbing from hip surgeries who um are having functional impairments to their mobility and they're learning a fall prevention based exercise class or they are um you know it's a Parkinson specific exercise class so you need space to have have both of those things happening at the same time because there's a need for both of those things in this town but they have to have ample space there is not there are not enough hours in the day to fit those things in one room same thing for arts and crafts current events what might appeal to you or to you Dennis is very different than what would appeal to um a recent retiree or someone who is dealing with the loss of a spouse and so being able to offer programs at a time that is convenient for folks and in a in a fitting to their life stage requires some square footage it just does um intergenerational programs in this space that need to happen at a specific time during early release days during right after the the end of the school day you can't interrupt other programs that happen in the early afternoon to do those because again everybody wants the programs that we're going to be able to offer here so you do just need a certain amount of square feet to make it work again this is another comment I'm sure you guys have done um a lot of leg work on this already is that uh have do you have an idea that what percentage of town the senior population actually will use the senior center I good uh my husband is a senior but I never saw the go to senior center and I took him to harbard Senior Center he didn't even like that so I don't really know um I when you get to the retirement stage of your life you already have your um circle of friends and how many I'm sure there are a lot of people who are willing to make new friends because C Center is a place for you to meet new people and and you know unless you already have neighbors and who want to come with you I'm just wondering you know I I have no idea I'm absolutely not against new Senior Center at all I think needs a new Senior Center I'm just trying to gauge the the the right size and and you know see if you know because I think that if you have all this wonderful programing in mind do you know that when you offer this program what people come for example I think a lot of active retirees already have their book club their gym membership their you know like they have already planned out their day so so are they going to come to you know do this activi sen Center so I I think you're you're bringing up a very good point and there is data that suggests that participation goes up between 40 and 60% when a new center is opened that is sustained over the data I've seen is over a threeyear period it is sustained over that period of time and I think you're you're right Jen when someone first retires they do have a lot of networks in place place and so you're looking to fill some of those um fill a different set of needs during that time maybe it's a recently retired um group that meets once a month for a coffee but over time those situations change ties loosen they break they um and as we get older sometimes Health changes sometimes people move to be close to their adult children in other towns and there's a need to keep and to build new social ties and it's something that as a young retiree it may be hard to imagine but as someone who's worked in this field for over 20 years I can tell you there's a huge difference between what people need and want and what they think their life is going to look like when they're in their 60s and what it looks like in their late 70s and their early 80s and their late 80s and so by having a robust Senior Center you're able to bring people in for um in their younger ages as volunteers doing fun social programs you build that support you build that Network around them you build the trust so that over time as needs change and they grow you already have that relationship with the person and so you are able to um you know sort of see that whole process process through and um you know I I do think that a a a vital Senior Center that's offering a wide variety of programs to Dennis's Point really does make for a happier healthy more independent senior they help combat the effects of depression and isolation and loneliness and it is something that we need in our town as a a way to keep the town not only culturally balanced but financially balanced as as well we need um we need households that are are really the best contributors to account Finance because you know they will want you know you know the the you know transfer station sticker you know everything you know seniors sort of like when they have time in their hands and if they all come to town and try to you know petition for discounts I I sometime wonder if we want to you know build a you know as a t attractive to seniors I I don't really know I mean this is not something for me to I'm just throwing out my thoughts so well Jen thank you very much and um and I am going to interject um because I want we want to keep moving down the questions and I think JY and Eric you have brought up really good questions that need to be cons continued to look at and have also been looked at uh I think in other presentations and um and I think the important thing to remember is going back at this mandate for the senior center as going back some many years and and it's already been said and everything so again these are all qu good questions and uh we need to continue to look at them um so I do want to uh move on to um the next two I think this next two questions um sort of uh go together uh how is uh air financing the project and what other funding sources are being explored so with a project this size we would be um going to town meeting for a bond um and we need to request it for um the total project cost then because no Grant is guaranteed um and it's a sort of a chicken and egg as far as getting grants for a project that doesn't have town meeting approval you know like which comes first so typically in a project this size you're asking for the total project cost to borrow up to but not to exceed this total project cost then you're trying to actually bring down the cost from there so that when the bond is issued it's not issued for that total dollar value so you can ISS see if you can issue it for less than that so for example the $300,000 that we are working with right now which is the housing Choice Grant there is a second round of that funding that we would be competitive for we're looking into how much that is I'd be hearing some conflicting numbers in the order of 1 to 3 million um there's also cdbg funds um Community Development block grant funds these are State funds um so cdbg is federal and then um housing choice would be State um there's also money that will be available from our state representatives to go towards specific projects they can um earmark funds for that um we're looking at um various other options um as far as um uh aging and Community Living Community Living grants we've started looking into the Broadband institutes grants um the Massachusetts cultural Council offers grants not just um the senior centers are recipient of their like cultural performance grants um every year but they also have a line that is for cultural spaces up to $100,000 um the senior center certainly will have a lot of between music art dance things like that that will be going on there we would be competitive for that um cultural space Grant um that I've got a list of about 15 or 20 of them that we're going to be looking into all of those with the hope that you know we write them we take a little bit off a little bit off here a little bit off there um to try and and bring it down as as much as we can none of those are guaranteed no Grant is ever guaranteed but um it is certainly a priority of the committee um as well as the town manager's office to bring the the the cost down as much as as possible and and if I may say if if you folks have suggestions as to where we might look for money um you know I have one okay thank you for the donation yeah you're welcome yeah uh go ahead I'm sorry go cut off so um my experience as a developer and as a contractor um is that uh there is a means that I understand to be true to be able to um build the building at local rates the way that's done is that we put it out to a public proposal request for a developer to build and lease it back to the town um that way you forgo do you want to weigh in on that yeah I just because I I have submitted proposals to the state for housing their um uh serving uh Service uh excuse me their server building for a backup server after 911 uh and uh that was the process so um you know you foro the prevailing rate requirement by doing that I don't know you know whether that makes sense or not because it becomes uh you know somebody's going to be making a profit whoever that is yeah but just throwing it out there for thought it's an interesting thought I mean it's way it's way above my pay grade so um if I I'm going to inter uh interject real quickly just to finish because we're sort of moving on to the uh actually there's sort of three questions here that are sort of again it's addressing the same topic how will Air finance a project uh other funding sources and then has the idea committee considered the idea of using Prov private developer and leaseback which is what you're bringing up now right and um what I just wanted to Katie you just talked well about you know the other funding sources and also touched on um the uh Bond issues and what have you and I just wanted to sort of finish up that uh question refering back to the memo where you and Robert have looked at the general idea of how we uh work through the uh funding through the town meeting select board and all that process the memo for September 11th which has a lot of detail on that particular question you've sort of addressed the the funding sources the grants and stuff and then of course the wonderful ideas that we'll all have for you so then just to bring us then sort of full circle then to this third item then could I just add one last thing to that Mr chair so um it I also forgot in that list um the there are some great Volunteers in town who've recently started a friends of the air Senior Center group um with the goal of doing some fundraising and collecting donations and networking in that way they're just getting started just getting off the ground um but they will certainly U be a piece of that puzzle as well okay good thanks so Rober yeah Mr chair and just before to to to Bob's uh question which is is a good one just on the financing piece um as we get more specifics and we're still in that process on the numbers of course Barbara and I would come back um to the fincom and get into the nitty-gritty of the the borrowing details in the financing and and and Barbara that's um her wheelhouse along with B Bond councel but um as mentioned at some point we would be asking town meeting to authorize up to a certain amount and as Katie mentioned as grants and so forth um come in we wouldn't necessarily borrow need to borrow all of it and she wouldn't borrow all of it in one felt swoop anyway and um one thing that the fincom should know is Barber has already done the analysis um and she can speak to it in more detail with the town's debt schedule and borrowing capacity capacity and the project um does fit within the town's borrowing capacity so that's one of the first things we check there is ample room now we get into terms you know to borrow that some municipalities are not in that case now Don't Kill the Messenger um but to Bob's idea which is I did watch the last meeting I'm sorry I wasn't here and I checked um with Town Council so on the question um about using a private devel and Lease back option and I don't know the specifics of your projects and I know that our friends at Mass development and devans as a quasi there's ways they can do things unfortunately um as far as I understand it with the town of air we have to follow chapter 30b which is the state procurement law so the first thing is if we were to consider a private entity to build something on townland first we'd have to do a whole competitive bid process with that for the land which would involve town meeting okay Y the second thing is under well and I can I'll get more detail if any of you are having trouble sleeping um under 30b in another chapter 149 in the Supreme Court of Massachusetts in 2010 also ruled in this that if we were to do that if we were to have have a private developer build um a structure and then lease it back to the town it would that developer would still be subject to the Massachusetts Public prevailing wage and public construction law yeah so interesting and so in talking with Town Council and I appre appreciate the outof the Box thinking Bob and and I know in your experience and so forth the the the problem is that unfortunately the Inspector General would still put us subject to the prevailing wage we would have the issue of also a competitive bidding process on the town land um and this would raise a lot of of red flags it's a great idea out of the box no that's okay the rules 2010 rules subsequent to what I right and when I made my I went through the bidding process and the state was totally open to that as a means of saving money y ironically the the unions may have helped close that well I'm not going there was it the state or was it Mass development it was the state it was for their server backup yeah building as a matter of fact I proposed it for uh U devons here and uh I was second you know I was second in the process so and it was open shot up that wasn't and that wasn't an issue at the time at the time yeah yeah some political you know not an expert on this but I did some work on it and part of what I just believe I'm going to say I read it but it's who knows because it's legal was if a project is given any government funding it needs to use the prevailing wage law so it throws out the grass throws out this it throws out all the other stuff the catch tell government funding that they don't give you enough money to offset the right so anyways enough it's just a lot of learning one last Point Mr chair and I appreciate it and Mr France brought this up earlier and I know he has dealt with this as a developer on the ISS not only is the issue of prevailing wage one of the hugest challenges that Municipal entities deal with it's like an occupational hazard it drives the costs way up and added to it the town of air within the prevailing wage districts and we have fought about this for 20 years I know air is grouped in along with Cambridge in in western suburbs of Boston they have these districts we've argued for years that air being in the frontier of of that District it's not quite but that's state law so ironically they're all the same you can be in Springfield and you're still mandated for Boston prevailing right so anyways no s okay thank you thanks Bob Rob thank you robt okay um so I just want to keep on moving down the list I I think we're doing pretty well any before we uh go any further um any other comments I think over what we've looked at so far okay um so the next thing on the list is do we need a center this size for the town of ER I the thing we've pretty much already discussed that and between Dennis and Ken and Katie Katie yeah so um okay so then why don't we go ahead and move to uh the the next question will the center be available for Town meetings or other uses so I'll speak for myself as the COA director because I don't think that the building committee has a position on this but as the COA director I think it's a great idea for it to be a Senior Center during the day and during the selected evening hours that the senior center will add on in in the new space but to use that building as a community resource when it's not being used as a senior center I think is a wonderful way for more people to see enjoy and and get the benefit from it um I already anticipate that there will be like I said early release days early afternoon activities um that will be intergenerational programming to begin with but in the evening um you know this room for for example is very busy for evening meetings there would be you know upto-date technologically up-to-date rooms in the new Senior Center that and again I'm only speaking for myself as the COA director you know other boards or committees could meet there that large multi-purpose space um would be a great resource to the community um I was talking to Luke at the library about his maximum you know headcount he can have for some programs and being able to offer larger scale programs um there I'm certain there are larger Town functions that could happen there uh Community organizations that could potentially rent out the space um individuals that could rent out the space uh before I was an air I was in Townsen and they had a model where the senior center was a sh had a shared large room with the library and we found it to be a really great marriage between the two departments and that space was used for both the Departments and then for the community and the off hours and you had a policy and a procedure in place and it worked really well any questions or comments on that item thanks for your extensive work on the on the program I know it's a lot of effort oh my God yeah more than I bargain for going to get there eventually yeah I I I just was making I've been making notes as I go along and um one of the thing I said thank you again very very much and we're going to we're going to address the last question about maybe having one of us pop in with you but um but I'm just going to jump off of away hearing tonight the work and the detail and thoroughness has been done is really really really good and and there's substantial documentation on on the uh building Committee website you know all the drawings you know the the uh what do they call them schematics and Concepts Concepts and concept plans and floor plans and just kind of some of the preliminary information um so are there other other building proposals in all of that or is it just the the one just from what you said I wasn't sure there's just the one oh okay yeah but you can see how it progressed and how it how it Chang and what it's going to hopefully look like and the size of the rooms and that kind of thing yeah all of the all of the documents for the entire year are there you can read them in date order and see how it develops as are um all the recordings from the meetings if you want to so if you can't sleep and you want to watch something L night um well that's I mean that's what I was s when I I mean I was Mak the detailed is I mean Ken with where you were going I was like you're not just pulling this stuff out of thin air this is I'm not pulling this believe they're drilling every pole and digging every ditch what do we have to do and I I think that's sort of the one of the charges of of the finance committee is that we are reviewing and making sure that um I'm I'm actually looking at our a little thing if you go to our website is there's a little blur talks about is ensuring expenses are Quantified you know detailed and so uh I think that's that being done and it's been very informative um so would you consider having uh a finance committee join the senior center committee for the time being that was it was an idea that was floated and I I guess we really didn't discuss it that much either up to the board yes and this is a good point and then with if if we were to go in that direction again the select board would have to actually votes on it no so in the meantime you're always welcome to attend yes um so I mean do what let me I'm going to just take this off what real quickly as a committee here finance committee what are are are what's the feeling on on possibly doing that and again I realize we're already sitting on rate review Capital Planning by board so we're we can feig okay you we may talk about in the next meeting though okay okay and then would you be open to that though sure absolutely yeah all right so why we'll pick that up again as an idea the next meeting and stuff and and again I think one thing we did discuss last time was to us individually visiting join going to your meetings and um um visiting definitely visiting the senior center which is uh eye opening and uh and I I mentioned I don't know if I mentioned our group but I think think I saw you at the um the Fest the Fest B right I had a I had to do a Home Depot run and uh which is going to leemon lemonster and I take the back ways I said oh well the back ways I go down Bishop Road so I actually pulled pulled over and took a like walked started walking around the site and stuff like that so when don't we just to comment on that Mr the chair so when the surveyor first of all it's in a corner so it's fenced in so two sides of the site are currently protected for security because there's a fence there so when the engineer the surveyor finishes the um looking at the lot and so forth and we talk about that and getting into topography we're going to stake it so part of his contract would be to stake it so that our committee can go out so that would be a good time if people wanted to join us at that point in time when when it was visible instead of walking around and guessing where things are yeah I mean I get I was just looking through defense so we we'll have it Stak eventually which is what which is what old men do they really go to consern there's actually an Italian term for that but where uh that might be a good spot to check it out and we did the same thing for the building wayout so the proposed location of the building was Stak in the field for the testing and the location of the potential Elevator Shaft was staked in the field so when we did the testing with the DPW for depole testing we excavated where the architect told us to excavate and in the location of the Elevator Shaft as well which is going to be deeper so we've already looked at the soil types and whatnot right information on the Hydraulics and the soil type the water and we name it so anyhow thank you anything else again thank you very very much for coming this with us and look forward I'll get together get together with youtime but I don't want to B out of again no you're not glad to okay um so moving on to the next item on our agenda which is the schedule next meeting um actually there's going to be two parts to that is um the town meeting is coming up on Monday October 28th uh the special town meeting um as Andrew we attended in the past sat on the stage um I will be out of town um I should I should be here okay um we are um I was I I was U touching base with Robert on what we might be doing and uh the uh planning board because there's most of the warrant is is is specific to that is going to be on the stage so we one of one or two of us would just need to be in the in the audience available if there might be any questions to the finance committee okay so we don't even we wouldn't even need to be on stage correct yeah so we don't have to wear ties and stuff okay I'm the only I'm the only one that wore tie anyway I can wear TI the seats up for April TI next next time I'm kidding I'm being Sil okay so then um so I know Andrew you'll you'll you'll probably attend it'll be around okay I'll be in yeah oh okay Plenty board I'll be in the Crowd Oh okay so I can wear a tie if you like I'll wear a bow tie how's that only if you wear a Sears sucker suit okay and then um our next meeting is going to be the calendar November 7 oh thank you Eric thank goodness Thursday November 7th at 6: pm and um Robert I'm going to ask uh just Float by you if would could we consider Maybe asking either the fire chief or DPW to do a a short uh presentation and maybe if you could get back to me if you can check with who of the if the fire chief or Dan which one would be available and then I can make sure I add it to the agenda I will and I maybe it's up to the commit I would maybe suggest the fire chief because he could also talk about some of the initial impacts we're seeing from the Hospital closure that could impact the budget let's do it okay I know every time I drive down the road I see one of the air ambulances going past me yeah I will confirm with you but for the fire chief November 7th okay so I'm going to put then at uh for November 7th the uh department head report would be will be the fire chief and um also um if we can uh hope Barbara uh or or Carrie you know would be able to uh take the report the these new Finance reports and look at them uh a little bit more detail learn more about them and um because I again at first glance wow it's good you know it's nice to have yeah I actually read it oh well then you can make the presentation yeah I just want to know there's I mean there's money moving in and out of those funds right so obviously those things have to get voted on right those funds have to get allocated through voting right some of those cap stabilization all that stuff yeah capital and stabilization required Town meaning the udag is just the select board okay yeah oh that's great so those are those are details we can start drilling into in future me keeping an eye on those select people okay um I will are there any public comments you guys count actually a tri question yes um do you know what the we spend on on the monthly report on the finance committee like there's $196 so how do we spend our money I have no idea it's printing isn't it uh I I don't know what we spent I thought it was printing do you happen to know that Robert I believe there is a it's your membership with the MMA Finance group oh that's right yeah yes yes oh yeah thank you thank you I'm just curious oh yeah no i' I've always been curious and did because if you look under percentage it's like we spend a lot of money we spend more than the quarter and I what do sp yes okay thank you okay um oh and then I had brought up that did that speaking of the MMA there was their their meeting I think on November 1st Saturday did any I know it's up it's close to anyone have interest I won't be going to it yeah okay something future still think of the guy will either I might have put it in my calendar but I have to check okay yeah okay anything else I do we have a motion to I'll let someone else do it okay a motion to adjourn second we have a motion to second to adjourn all those in favor I I I I very good bye J 727 on October 17th thank you