##VIDEO ID:327vTCNOOs0## hello and welcome to the Tuesday October 88th 2024 meeting of the air planning board this meeting hearing of the air planning board will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this inperson meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting hearing will not be suspended to terminated technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with a particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 833-6545 32 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Danny Ruiz Town planner at D a.m. us or 978-772-4864 220 extension 144 prior to the meeting welcome everyone uh do I have a motion to approve the agenda so moved do we have an agenda I I did not have a chance to I forgot to print them out but I have it up right there for everybody I'll second that excellent any discussion on the agenda it looks beautiful uh who can vote on this everyone everybody kathle too right I can always you could maybe make a motion some sometimes you can make a motion um so tonight specifically for you it's special permits and approving the agenda adjournment um those kind of things okay make meeting minutes okay Julie how you vote Yes Kathleen yes Nathan hi chair votes iend is approve and the first item is we have a special guest appearance from Pat Latimore and R Ron Mor of New England Real Estate and please come up I'm hoping do you know everyone at the table is there anyone here you don't know uh we know them now well this Julie Julie Murray meeting so you know four years ago met on come on up Pat you too can you get it move the chair for her so uh Julie Murray hi Kathleen is it SEL K caselle caselle she's our alternate and she's about a year now how long's it been since January since January yeah not even not even and then of course of course n Nathan King and Danny Ruiz has been our town planner for uh a year and what three months yeah a year and three months um take take take it away I I've inv let me just say I invited them the context as I invited them to talk about uh real estate in air and locally uh given their experience as Professionals for decades and their intense knowledge of the Air Market and they just usual convivial nature so thank you for coming and the floor is your thank you for having us thank you uh just quickly about the company a little bit we're called ma real estate Center I'm sorry ma real estate center right and was previously uh ER Morrison so uh we dropped the franchise a few years ago we're at 37 Main Street right in downtown MH we've had an office in town under various names for about 25 years right about 25 years started at five Park Street you can imagine yeah which which building is that which is 55 the white tiny building where re Architects used to be they're moving over there we were there uh yeah back in the early early 2000 wow yeah yeah at that point the company had 15 locations we had 14 uh 15 locations 400 agents wow wow we whittel it down by selling it off and here we are and so we're down to the one office um we have what now nine nine agent 11 [Music] 11 the the one thread through the whole thing I guess is Pat and I so we're glad to be here and consistent we've put together um a presentation that does not lend itself to uh video it's most mostly statistics uh which is what real estate really is is statistics so I'll just start with the average price and what a person or a family has to earn in order to live in air at the moment under the current conditions at least and I've also compared us to some of the surrounding towns uh the type of towns that we tend to also bring uh consumers to uh the Feer towns for air as far as consumers are concerned in the real estate business are people who cannot afford to live in Acton Westford Littleton and so the brokers in that area are the the feeder Brokers if you will the companies exist in those towns will bring their consumers or customers up to to us uh we're lucky enough to be the only real estate company in town so um we pretty much have a good handle on what's been going on for the last 20 25 years in town uh the comparison of air to the surrounding towns we're about in the middle uh the first uh the first chart shows that and this is one year of Statistics from today back one year so it's not one particularly it's not 242 it's 23 24 mixed together back to October um this is the average median and these are all the averages okay not the medians uh the so number of solds are the are column B and you'll notice that air has 63 sold uh boxboro is the lowest with 29 and Fitchburg is the highest with 256 which is fairly logical in so far as fitchburg's a city okay and uh quite a few of the buyers who come to air do end up in fitzburg they can't afford air but they can afford places like West Fitchburg very similar to air West Fitchburg as far as the neighborhood look to it not talking about the center of Fitchburg but the far the Far Western side uh Acton leads the parade I'm sorry boxboro leaves leads the parade with an average price of 173,000 oh God now that will surprise some of you um it doesn't surprise us anymore uh we were in Cambridge the other day where the average price for single family home is 2.4 million average average so that means you know you're pretty much running up to three million as far down to 1 million sure question inter um you said single family is this whole table single family yes everything we're going to present you I'll let you know if it's not most all of the our stats for tonight our single family uh there's not a lot of condos in town there are some but it's not the major type of uh um house that we we have in town MH uh we also provided you towards the end with rental statistics which are also fairly surprising I'm sure to most of you when you look at them uh Ron yes the income is that the income that you see which is called f is what what a family would need to earn on a yearly basis in order to buy the average house in that town so that's a 30 30% based on 30% based on based on uh a 6 point today's interest rate which is 6.75 I believe but only spending 30% of their income no yes staying within a down payment of 20% wow okay okay so it's an 80% mortgage and does that include their property tax no no that's this is solely this this chart only shows the mortgage payments so these are really low the payments the income oh the the incomes are well no not really they're 200 for instance to live in Acton to buy the average house of 1,46 a family has to earn 260,000 a year to qualify for the mortgage okay otherwise the bank will not that's not that's not including having the down payment but you correct yeah okay right okay yeah uh so if you go down that column you'll see see that to buy the average home in air today at least which is 605,000 um with a morgage of 484000 the payment would be 3136 a month does not include taxes so the taxes would run somewhere around 5600 a month on a on a home of that that size or that price so you're looking at just short of $4,000 a month mhm uh um and the income necessary to carry that at least according to the bank is 150,000 which does kind of line up with what Alicia has been showing us as well for what the income is the for that's needed for and then all your other incomes for other things are going to fall right along with that you know deont mayam no go right ahead you know one of the things I think of as a kind of reference point income is Teachers that's traditionally education's been traditionally a solid middle class profession mhm and what's obvious to me is a teacher's income you couldn't afford to buy a home well you if you you had two people yeah do you see where I'm going with this well so actually it's funny that I was actually just looking into these numbers for some for totally different reason but Massachusetts is the number two state in the US on average salary for teachers right around 90 right around $90,000 a year um which is you know for you know comparatively for the rest of the country that would be with some experience some no not starting no no no I'm just experience and if you see with these numbers you'd have to have another spouse correct and even then you might have to put the kids to work yeah you see you see to P them all out and and again you know the re that's the fun part about you know we both both of us have been doing this a long time the fun part about real estate is it's challenging for the broker to actually be able to not just sell the house if you will we have to find a way to sell the house in many cases so there are things like second mortgage assistance there are also assistance uh available through the state through the town I mean there's different different U vehicles that we can use it isn't as simple as it used to be where someone would walk in and they're buying a home you know when I bought my first home it was $74,000 it was a typical split entry in Bill R I wish uh 1974 I think it was uh so you know we sold that eventually for 200 something, and today it's 700,000 is it is it growing faster even excluding even the last couple years the price of homes is growing faster than faster than the income absolutely and and uh but don't forget there have been Corrections in history they not so you know not so distant history actually where the prices start coming down and if you go down uh this list this uh air price history the second chart uh with income yeah you can see it go up and down you can see it go up and down uh we went back as far as you know as you can see we did a substantial amount of research when you asked us we weren't totally sure what you had to do so being an ex- teer I totally overprepared for whatever was going to be necessary so you have 43 years of uh information in front of you for 15 minutes you know see your presentation you can see right around when Co hit where the numbers just Spike absolutely you can just does the um mortgage payment I don't know this would be challenging to do but kind of reflect the fact that like around 20 interest rates were really low buying one thing that we didn't do with this chart we used the same interest rate okay okay uh it would have been to know project to go back get all so we said you know let's just use the same interest rate it'll all work out on the and that's the 6.7 but the prices you see yes 6.7 uh the prices the average price you see column c those are real those those aren't that's exactly what they were and again you have the number of sold just to give you an idea of how the sales go up and down according to the price uh again you have the mortgage amount that would be taken uh using the down payment um the monthly payment so in the year 2000 the average house in air the way to read this U or at least what we're trying to show is that in the year 2000 which was the first year we looked at the average mortgage payment in town for the average home in town was $1,033 a month and the average tax which we actually did go back we we uh found online believe it or not we found the old tax rates uh so the tax the tax would have been approximately $150 that's a month MH okay and so that brings the total payment to $1,181 a month for the average house in 2,000 and the average income necessary to buy that house was $56,000 $677 just to give you a sense now you can look through the chart but if you go to the very bottom which is today it's actual today's number literally uh there have been 63 sales um and the average price is 605,000 $34 and then the average mortgage the average payment is 3136 and the average tax monthly is almost $500 which brings the average total payment to 3631 or thereabouts uh and the average income necessary to qualify for that is $174,000 a year so if someone's earning less than that we know that we have to find some sort of a vehicle to get them qualified but they'll be spending more than they're supposed to be spending exactly percentage wise of their income on a mortgage um so those are not typical bank loans uh because Banks as you know are not in the business of giving money away way M uh particularly under circumstances that may mean that they have to bring it back and take the house back at some point uh not too long ago we were selling a lot of foreclosed properties going to the door knocking on the door with a check of $3,000 in our hand from the bank saying if you'll get out of this house we'll give you $33,000 or whatever the number was we were authorized in some cases to go to 10,000 one once the word got out uh they would obviously say no I don't want 3,000 you know they knew we would' be back in 30 days knocking on the door again uh and eventually we got to the $10,000 figure or whatever the bank had authorized us to do and so that was cheaper to do that than you know it's $40 $50,000 for the bank to foreclose on a property cost the bank that amount just to foreclose and so therefore they will do whatever is necessary or cheaper I should say yeah not necessary you know to not not go the route generally we're selling the same amount of homes except for a spike in 2018 it's really pretty consistent if you look at yeah yeah and which makes sense yeah turn and there's like single family or homes even condos in here there's like 2400 is that I think there's there's somewhere in the mid 2000s of homes in air right sing total Homes single family yeah a little bit more than that but yeah 24 okay how many how many SLE somewhere around 2400 um it's in it's in the other folder in here so we're we're turning over 140th right Kathleen about a year she checked my math for me um uh so it's like 2 and a 12% it's not a big turnover right right so people are holding on yes and and so what is do you know what that number is how long do people hold their homes in air well some have been holding them for 30 40 years I know that much we keep waiting and you know yeah know we have a sen Society in here but it runs about now it run it used to be 7 years okay but it isn't anymore it's it's more like 10 or 12 years at cuz these numbers would indicate it's longer uh it I think in air it probably is a little it might be a little bit longer I'm thinking the general area yeah but there are quite a few people in there who are living in homes that they may have grown up in where parents homes they're not letting go that's the one source of wealth they have they have nothing else that's it that's the home is it many times they're already paid for and that's why they're still and where can you go and where can they go that's where you go do you pay your real estate taxes and your utilities and you're you're good your maintenance you know you just can't do it one of the things to notice about this chart is that from 2008 to 200 uh 18 I'm sorry 2019 roughly it kind of hovered in the low threes the price y yep yep so that's a long stretch you know there wasn't a lot of movement mhm but then starting in 220 from 219 to 220 it it jumped from 387 to 444 for well that that's an enormous jump yes yep so all of a sudden the people that used to buy an air no longer could afford to buy an air that's right and pretty much if you own a house from before 219 219 if you've been in your house in air since then or before then you could not afford probably to buy again which also leads to holding on to to a house because I'm going to keep it as long as I can afford to keep it um you know as opposed to not being able to stay in the town because of being priced out of my own town and that's basically what's happening so what happens to the the uh profile of the buyer totally different y So eventually and we've already seen it you end up with two towns the people who lived here and the people who didn't live here but have moved in because not because they wanted to be here necessarily but they couldn't afford to live where they wanted to live priced out and so therefore even though you look at a a $65,000 average price if they were looking in Acton it's a million exactly so there's actually a $400,000 jump if you will MH in the average price which is huge MH and I mean one of the big things so when I worked in my previous job as a developer um one of the big things we saw was when in 2020 when Co did hit and this and working from home became a new viable option what we saw was a lot of people leaving the cities to leave these the job you know not having to live in the city anymore to go to these jobs but living moving out to the suburbs because they were going to be working from home for such a they didn't know how long of a period of time right everyone was moving out to the suburbs and that's where we you know we noticed that all the prices were starting to rise and that's what's happened and now that people come to air who used who would have normally been able to afford air have to go to someplace west of fitur someplace correct because fitur is now Westminster witon really when you look at the towns west Fitchburg and West that's really where a lot of the people who originally come to a looking for a house end up exactly uh Fitchburg by the way now averages which you know depending upon how old you are this price is kind of surprising it's $46,000 is the average price in fitur I wrot there so don't mind Kath you had a question sorry I have two questions actually well you're only allowed one but go ahead but back to the topic um I don't know if you know this and I don't know who knows this we know everything and if we don't we make it up do you have a sense of how many folks or how it is for people to reverse mortgage their house it's not anymore and it's not a good idea yeah financial planning aside but we're just curious if if that is something not it's not popular anytime we run into that it's been a huge issue yeah as a matter of fact many times it ends up that the bank takes the house yeah well because what happens all that kind of things so people are not really falling into it as much anymore or or going for that yeah we can point to homes in town where that's what's happened the people took out in reverse mortgage and then we sort of you know the vultures are at the doorstep waiting for it to go to forture that's one form of like retirement is is if you bought your house you know in the '90s and now it's worth a lot you reverse mortgage you get that but the bank takes it over right um but the second question was um about uh new construction specifically so um just uh my husband and I were fortunate we bought our house in 2019 we bought new construction when you could uh low ball the asking price right um and that was a big cell for us was the ability to have a house that was you know up to code energy efficient all of that and when we looked at a lot of these surrounding towns we actually didn't see that but air has like when you look at the listings a good amount of new construction and I was curious about how like your thoughts on my statements like is that a draw do you see a difference between people going for new construction or not we had a closing uh last week here in town new construction across from the high school was 97,000 yeah that was the one you it's in here it's on I think it's the last page in here yeah it's in the chart oh no it's in the other it's in the package some and that's the highest uh price there's never there still has not been a million dollar sale absolutely we're getting close so in in Salsbury last year we sold there there was seven single family hot um single family lots that were sold for each of them went 850,000 to 00,000 yeah that's about the going rate in the average for new construction right for new construction right uh and the reason for that are twofold one the land cost M and two the cost of lumber and materials to put up the house the labor cost really hasn't changed a whole lot correct um particularly because some of it's automated now so you know it's not as it's about the same to actually pay the the personnel put up the house as it was maybe 5 years ago quite frankly doing modular yeah and you do modular you know if it doesn't fall off the truck on the way over and and it comes in one piece you're all set uh we we did have a we did have one in surely a few years ago that fell off the truck and that was not pretty can I ask uh what insurance that falls under is it the auto or the vehicle insurance or home insurance my assumption would be whatever the construction guy exactly yeah that would be my guess general contractor's Insurance yeah whatever they have which is very is very expensive you know if the house falls off the truck this is what they get paid I guess so at first when you said I thought you was like making like a a mobster you mean literally fell off truck truck a piece of it not the whole house one of the rooms but you can't put the house together without all the rooms correct this house is bought cash the 950 oh yeah we see a lot of $900,000 cash yeah yep yeah okay yeah um Ron are you going to get go into I think one of our interests is smaller homes is is that is that in your well it's difficult in a to build a smaller home because of the zoning that's what I invited you here to talk about that again please did you say that yes please underline this yeah uh I believe it's what 750 square feet minimum yeah well that's not really a tiny house anymore correct um the zoning is you know this is jumping ahead a little bit but the zoning is really the one thing that's holding back all of the real estate market depending upon which area of town you talk about particularly the center of town uh there are you know for most small towns don't have vacant Lots in their Center we do and have had for quite a few years and why do you think that is that's a parking issue and what and specific zoning requirement to have for every unit now it's been reduced it used to be two then they brought it down to one and a half per unit in other words if I build 10 condos I need to provide I used to have to provide 20 spaces y well there aren't 20 spaces in downtown air it's also a transit in my mind it's not officially a Transit Zone but every other town I know of is pretty much turned the center of town with the with a railroad station with the commuter station into a Transit Zone correct you don't have parking restrictions in transit zones you don't try to build houses um and then say well you need two cars for every unit well I take the train I don't have a car or I only use the car once in a while you know that type of thing so that would be the biggest thing that could happen I don't see it happening there seems to be resistance to it it's something we've been discussing well anyway for what it's worth you can hear it from me if there was no parking restrictions if you will we call it uh those vacant Lots would be gone in the morning y uh but there's no point building anything on Main Street on Main Street only right and in downtown in general even the Park Street Lots the West Main Street Lots go up so when you talk Bill are you talking uh residential commercial or mixed or all three it's it's the downtown business zoning right that's the zoning that's the problem as far as the parking the GB but that goes up the side streets a little bit so it does cover you know some of the areas there are some homes for instance on Pleasant Street that have no parking at all mhm and so the they Park you know some of them park in the garage others are leasing parking from parking lots that are available in downtown there's all kinds of places that they're parking but it becomes difficult to ask a developer to come in and put up a building when he also has to figure out how to pay for parking um so can we look at it from the other side do the clients do the customers have cars most of them yes oh sure is that because why why is that why do they have cars yeah well because it's still a type of society that you know if I want to go to the supermarket I need a car so can we can we you know there's a chicken and egg here not well not really the the only problem that I'm talking about is the fact that if I if I decide to put 10 condominiums in downtown uh air MH I need to provide 10 parking spaces someplace within 1,000 ft of the building mhm there aren't any unless I go to Five private owners and say look can I lease a space in your driveway you know it's it would be kind of a kind of a mish mash type of operation and some the businesses are willing to lease spaces now for overnight they do certain sections of the lot and they give stickers and they say okay this is Nathan King he has these five spots he has these five tenants they each have a vehicle that's I walk here from along West Main Street yep uh and a lot of rental rentals right along Main West Maine and most have two cars per unit yeah in the in the driveway in the parking on the grass they they've made arrangements with people that have space someplace right uh near wherever the building is the people who live in air the people who live in rent in air have cars yeah oh yeah some are using the parking garage some walk you know but some people can't walk easily some people don't want want to walk but I think you're also trying you're saying that by building by lowering that requirement and new people building you're going to attract people who don't have cars and will use the transit uh uh you know the transit line right and and you'll still attract and now you'll attract even more of the people who do have cars MH because they're not in a they're not up against it as far as finding a parking space they'll be able to to arrange more easily for parking space it lowers the the other thing is it's going to lower the price of that unit the the cost of ownership is going to go down and that person with a car is still going to is going to be attracted to it right so I think there's a risk that that flows out you know my concern is that then that becomes a Town's issue when there isn't parking but there are cars well it wouldn't change because all all I'm saying is it's basically going to be the same zoning you get in the res in the regular residential zoning I mean there's no parking issue there they don't say you can't build this house if you don't have a parking space at least I don't think they do that I know of but the point is you're just bringing it back to the you it's becoming equal with a regular single family home if you will the cost the cost of the yeah yeah because obviously if you have to if the Builder has to make arrangements for parking he's going to have to pay for that then the tenant has to pay in the price whatever the price be right correct it's like saying I'm building these apartments downtown and I'm going to provide everybody with free train service but somebody's paying build decided okay that's a incentive for somebody yeah right you know interestingly enough only 444 people take the train a day 2.6% of the people who work who are working in air to get to work 2.6% you're one of those yeah well you're going to fix it for us you're G to get us High we're kind of hamstrung because of the poor quality of the of the transit service and the single best thing the state could do for us is fix the damn trains and it's and we feel you know that we down the pipe are suffering as a consequence of the state's inability to take responsible for for the for transportation if that Transportation was Superior more and r and more frequent people would do it y well they they have upgraded the schedule what they haven't done is upgraded the equipment yep and the performance and the performance of the equipment obviously which breaks down once in a while uh but but there is a train during regular hours now Monday through Friday there is an hourly train which isn't bad that's good I'm sorry I didn't know wasn't it's an hourly train it's only weekends where it's kind of sparse now but but again only even with the hourly train only 400 the last count we saw from the MBTA was 444 people people do not walk into our office to buy an air and say I'm here because there's a train sorry doesn't uh that's why I came well one there's your two points there's your two point never came to our office so that's why the other thing is I also get I don't know that the MBTA is is a difficult thing I think I think it would be better service if we weren't stuck with heavy rail if it wasn't heavy rail which is much more expensive to operate than a light rail system if it was a light rail system like Riverside going to Welsley uh of course if air was Wellsley we would have a light rail system right Nots no it's it's a it's a$2 billion investment is a lot of M it is I'm just saying unfortunately we're stuck with the with heavy rail well when you're selling houses at $1.5 million right we're getting there yeah exactly oh and can I ask you while we're on the topic of Main Street what about commercial interest why aren't I mean maybe it's brain dead obvious to you and but I'd like to have it said out loud like why why aren't more businesses interested in Main Street why can't we fill those empty lots what's going on uh is it not enough foot traffic is it not enough what is it it's not so much that but even the coffee shop uh the diff the different coffee shops that have come and gone had trouble you would think being near a train station you'd sell quite a bit of breakfast and lunch and that type of thing didn't happen people walked from the parking lot or wherever they were putting their car right to the train right by all the coffee shops um people using the the train is not an attraction for business certainly downtown for the type of businesses right I would imagine right the mix of businesses that we have are not the type quite frankly the mix of businesses that most commuters or most people even who live in a town are actually looking for on an every everyday basis there's no major supermarket in town we do have a supermarket uh which is a good Supermarket but it's not one of the major and what does you know that kind of tells you also um don't forget we're a small town There's Only what 8 or thereabouts people it's not a large town and and and I think on top of like just to to add on to that like the use is like he was saying like we have a salon that's not something that someone who's going to go to the train station oh let me do this before I go you know uh we have a liquor store we have um you know several restaurants but they're lunch restaurants and dinner restaurants they're actually dinner dinner restaurants there's no lunch restaurant in maros which Canada does breakfast lunch well they wake and bake wake and bake 7 to two Okay yeah so it's anawa yeah so it's like it's the uses that you see um sponsored meeting tonight it's very $49 I can get $49 in gifted things for the whole year and it's under my conflict of interest yeah under 50 under 50 um but yes it's the uses also sorry have two two questions again is go okay um on uh I'll just say them and then you can take them in turn um the what in your opinion would be the biggest draw that like air is missing like if you could wave a magic wand both from the perspective of kind of zoning like what you're talking about but also like from the perspective of um amenities well if you want to see the downtown um you know more vibrant if you will uh I would eliminate the need to have one space per one parking space per unit that I build and I think that would rejuvenate the interest developers are not interested in trouble they're not interested they want easy right so they can go anywhere else where the train stops and not have to worry about finding Park parking spaces just just as an example if you could find a space that you could lease for $50 a month that's $600 you know a year per space and I need 10 of them and now multiply that by my morgage for 20 years then it starts building up yeah of course and you rent the only way to get that back for the most part unless you need huge tax deductions for some reason is to pass it on to the tenant which raises the rent for units that can be had now when you do that in the surrounding towns for less money or the you know or the same with without the parking restrictions still so that would be the number one thing that I would want to work is that done in the NBTA overlay no no NBTA overlay we we're following just State we're okay with that we're still following states so the MBTA uh communities by the state did not um recommend multi family without parking oh no no we we when we rode it we lowered it even more and recation says one one parking spot per unit per unit that's the okay yeah we lowered it the recommendation but I think they were saying um I'd have to look at it again because I I think originally it was 1.2 1.5 and then it was it was two before that went to 1.5 then it went to one which is where it is now and you know I'm suggesting you need to just take it away but that's if you want to see it easier to develop something in the center M if not then you know we just have to wait for a developer that's willing to spend the additional whatever it's going to cost to provide for the parking even if like building coverage in G R is is 30% right uh in A2 is 25% right if that especially in gr if you could have building coverage be larger you'd get more home on the property and less parking less well if you if your coverage includes your parking right well the only way the lots that are available in downtown at least now the question was about now to get I assume to get rid of the vacant Lots or at least the look of the vacant Lots um the parking if there's going to be parking on site it has to be under the building if it's under the building there's now a restriction on the height which means you've just lost two apartments which means you can't build the building correct it isn't that you can't get the parking there it's just that the expense is beyond the worth of making it happen if I can go to a town nearby and do the same thing for less money it's kind of like the perfect example is five Park Street there was a design that came before the planning board several years ago um for a special permit they had a they had 17 spots on the site plus there was some additional uh parking spaces down at Pleasant the uh the liquor store here yeah they had an agreement there's no no parking on site no there was some proposed underneath underneath parking for no no it was it was 17 units in three or four stories there the plan shows underneath uh some parking spaces there was bike storage in the first floor I'm just telling you what off the plans that I've seen from Ken that was that Bob Gardner yeah Bob Gardner yeah so that's a perfect example like that you're you're doing underneath parking and now you're losing an extra floor because you have to provide that extra height for that exactly you know there's a cost for everything mhm and that's you know and again is there a need for that uh one parking space probably not you know people will still find way to park there'll be someplace if they have the car they'll park it if there's not onsite parking obviously and the garage might actually full use but see the problem the problem starts before the consumer it starts with the developer they see that and they say well that's going to cost me money and right off the bat they have a negative feel about the whole project that they're thinking about yep as opposed to going to another town where it doesn't exist where there are true Transit zones that have no talk about parking you can have a car you don't have to have a car you have a car find a place to park in if it's not on site the problem with air downtown about you know the biggest issue as far as the buildings are concerned the lots that are available are small I mean we've already attempted to put to get in that particular spot there on West Street at the corner at Maine that's empty next to the old Legos building um oh yeah you know that's owned uh individual that's an individual that owns that and pays taxes on it and really gets no use of it mhm uh now they could put up an apartment building but because of the parking restrictions they can't make it work so we before the legac building was sold to someone else it was for sale we were trying to put together around West Street around the corner down Main Street to the bicycle path y uh we were trying to put together a whole uh package there right that makes sense in the meantime someone bought the Legos building which blew the whole thing up because now we got something in the middle of it so right back to square one now we have a small lot on the corner of West and Maine which could have an apartment building like 49 Fletcher which is almost adjacent to it there uh the red brick building and the block before it um mhm which which also has no parking yeah um but they have arranged and pay for parking in one of the adjacent lots a private lot so his his tenants and he was able to raise the rent to cover the cost of the parking so now you get a tenant faster times money in real estate a lot of people don't think about that but if you have a vacant apartment for 3 months if you could have had it rented right away as soon as somebody walks out of it you put the next tenant in then you don't lose any money but losing 3 months worth the rent out of an apartment that is vacant in a building that only has six Apartments you know you're talking about almost 20% of your inventory is gone and it takes 3 months to get somebody who says well I don't care about the car it's okay you know I'll find a space or something well that slows down the amount of time or lengthens the amount of time that it takes to rent something it's the same as selling a house if you're trying to sell a house that's overpriced for what the value is it sits on the market that's right eventually either someone bids low and the owner takes it or the owner finally takes advice that he's been getting usually from his broker who doesn't get paid until it's sold uh they'll lower the price and finally it sells price is everything in real estate you can make up for anything you can make up for a house that needs all kinds of repairs just by selling it for the right price the question is can the seller sell it for the right price that's really the question so we tried to provide you with an additional overview here by just cherry picking a few sales in the various price zones in air um if someone's looking under and we're again only talking single family here not condominium a single family uh under 300,000 is basically non-existent unless it needs to be taken down and rebuilt yeah unless unless it's really just a lot value on that note though so um the you're saying okay so so a house like that exists it's uh $2.99 or something who's buying that is that some usually it's a flipper or a contractor because of the amount of work that's needed oh for other than that it's a firsttime buyer that canally and they can't do the work and do you see that at all or would you say the majority of cases are somebody who's intending to renovate we see firsttime buyers that are interested who are out bid by contractors and flippers so there mortgages for $2.99 that's it yeah and even if a contractor comes in at 260 or 250 and it's cash and they don't have to wait and it's gone and it's off my plate they're going to take that all day because the first time buyer wants inspections they want to renegotiate they want everything you know it has to appra everything has to happen so if you're going to come and offer me cash from my junky house so that's what happens most of the time actually 95% of the time A lot of times and the other issue with uh it doesn't even have to be a firsttime buyer someone buying a house that needs work may not get the mortgage that's right unless they have cash most sales under 300,000 are cash and the reason is the bank won't loan money on it if it needs too many repairs they don't want it back right they don't want and many time it's an FHA or a VA mortgage and it will not qualify so now the buyer has gone jump through hoops to do get inspections and all of that pay an appraisal in the bank go yeah I don't think so there was a time that we could take that buyer to other towns uh not so easy anymore again as I said earlier Fitchburg 400,000 low average 500,000 uh those were two towns where we in the past would be able to take a buyer under 300 and they would be able to find something that didn't need that much work so that it did qualify for a mortgage U again you know selling real estate again it's it's uh there are so many variables it's worth worse than forecasting the weather you know it really get paid to get it wrong right it's true so what do you get for 330 well you get um you get a house on Grove Street which uh is built somewhere in 1875 it's 13007 Square ft which is you know it's not bad is but nothing's updated right uh claw tub uh which some people like actually they're quite valuable if they're not in the house and you sell them off to somebody else that's restoring an antique house um that type of thing uh maybe the electrical systems not up to Snuff uh you know you put in too much on the on the outlet and everything blows out the fuses blow out you the hairer ciruit bre you know all kinds of older issues um do we have those types of houses not as many as we used to have because most of them have been bought up and refurbished right uh but this was one that was kind of still here the owner had been there for many years and they were retiring and so that house sold for 330,000 that's about Rock Bottom at the moment in town for price for pricing yeah on so say it were it was a house say the you know the flipper buys it and and does the renovations for a house at, 1300 Square ft what do you think that's going for that well it's assess for 28650 so if you have a calculator if you multiply that by 1.31 you'll get that's assess that's it's pre pre- rehabilitated that's correct but it's not going to be reassessed usually after the assess the assessment is assessment 286 286,000 286,000 time 1.31 375 all right that would be the fair market value if this was an older house M that was you know fluffed and buffed fluffed and buffed a little bit not necessarily restored there was two right here on East Main right next to the the um yes the courthouse that was not not just fluffed and buffed re re rehabbed and that went up to forign change I believe yeah it's it's in that's yeah they're totally done this house was not bad actually it was purchased by an active duty military gent and it was livable it truly was it wasn't what you know there wasn't granite countertops and it wasn't you know the most updated everything but it wasn't a bad property it really wasn't but but if you really re rehabilitated a house like this you would then turn around and sell it for about 500,000 yeah so I guess that cuz you know this kind of leaves into that conversation that was the the presentation that happened last night here at the um affordable housing committee and the size of the units that the gentleman was is building between it was 1100 and, 1400 Square ft so it's like that's something that uh myself and the working group and uh are are thinking about creating some sort of a bylaw that would incentivize building those smaller homes right you know not necessarily 1100 to, 1400 saying that's the but even smaller than that capability wise you know that's going to bring the that's going to be a a lower price in the more you know that's 300 and you know and low right it's roughly $325 a square foot uh for a new construction if you will to put it up it's expensive yeah and and those tiny houses that he was showing last night those we did the math when we got back those would sell for $410,000 in Lancaster cuz the numbers are different in Lancaster but 400 above 410,000 as they sit mhm if they were for sale so still not an inexpensive house but at least it brings it within reason to some people's ability to buy of course the drawback in some people's mind would be the fact that 15t next to me is another house uh but that's the type of construction that's easy for the Builder uh less expensive overall for the Builder so he can pass those savings on to the consumer yeah and I still have an HOA yeah what are your um can you elaborate on fluff and buff versus fully restore like for this okay for this house for this house Flo needed to be refinished okay it needed to be painted throughout okay um it was it livable absolutely the windows were in good shape not great I'm sure that they could use replacement but not great but if someone were if a if a builder or a contractor would have go in fluff and buff would be floors paint make sure the roof is in good shaps much and you're saying the did just so so this is 330 now the aesthetic um fluff and buff puts you where versus the restoration opinion about 400 to maybe well depending on what you do as well some people look at fluff and buff they want new countertops they're going to put in all new appliances they're going to do things like that restoring is Total Restoration so new windows not not remodel F and so that would net you round to five to five maybe five and a quarter tops okay and that's with really nice finishes what number Washington Street we sold what number was that that's 54 and we sold that for what 330 330 large house needed l a three family it's still a three family yeah but it's totally she didn't not remodel she she restored yes I know exactly how she talking about family right she's living in it as a one family but it's still a three family on the books because she's kept everything so that she pays everything separately so that it's beautiful it's amazing the work she's done in there is incred have you been in the house no I just I was working upstairs when she bought it no mind you she bought that house two almost three years years ago so you're not talking these numbers you're talking 3 years ago numbers now if that that house was on maret I would say 2 to 300,000 into it already and she's not done she sold her house in Littleton to no she didn't she still owns it does she still own it she's a really good friend of mine I rent her house in Litt she moved from Littleton no she yeah she rents in Lon she rents the house there so that's unbelievable the particular house we're talking about at the moment would probably sell at this point for 900 maybe more wow it's amazing sorry just to close the loop so and then if say this house was replaced with like one of those MCO properties new construction roughly the same how much do you think that would sell for well the problem is the lot the lot side still you can't just throw it away you know the lot so it was new construction like Standalone new construction this house never existed yeah in that neighborhood to one of the houses that we saw last night 400 425 yeah really yeah so that would actually come in less than restoring this house yeah yeah interesting because there's value in the old house mhm yeah cuz you're looking at was a clean slate but that's not the realistic portion of it right there is a house there so there's cost to tear it down down to do everything of that so there's it's going to be a higher price if it was blank slate then it's a different cuz you're not you don't have to demo it you don't have to do any of that other and if it was blank so the 450 is not the blank slate number or is it if you had to tear this house down it's at least 10 to 15 maybe even 20,000 cuz you have to tow it away if there asbest it has to go to New Jersey yeah so you know gets expensive so without you know it's a very there's a lot of variables Tak a house down you better off trying to restore whatever is standing there quite frankly and if there but if there was new construction of this size in this neighborhood it would be it would be uh it sounds like an 11 1200t house so multiply that by by 32 400 probably okay so that would be the 400 400 brand new yeah retail cuz you got the wholesale price and then you know you get into bidding wars uh hedgeway is another the second sheet here is hedgeway um sold for 440 again we're just trying to show you okay what happens if you go up 100,000 yep U or thereabouts and not a whole lot different quite frankly the only difference would be the location obviously this is near one of near Sandy pond it's on the it's on the far end of you know from the from the pond itself it's the first house in not the last house so it's not on the Water by any means and you don't even see the water from there but it is there walk to it obvious you have a bigger lot and a little bit bigger Lot 200 square ft more probably not as busy a neighborhood you know that type of thing yeah it's kind of a dead end but it does have new newer Windows roof that kind some of the things have been done right but you've got the keyword the most favorite real estate word at the middle there in the description uh sold as is seller will make no report no repairs that is you know code for needs work y get ready yeah it's like when you do your inspection it's like I'm not paying for that additional stuff so doesn't matter yep right and try to explain that to buyers sometimes okay so can we move up another 100,000 we get to 550 which is 67 Pleasant Street um Pleasant Street's kind of a street of two streets mhm um once it opens up it becomes a very desirable neighborhood in town it's probably the widest side street I think it's got to be one of the widest anyway very weird uh if the entire neighborhood were just saying the other day if the entire neighborhood were built that way whenever they built the neighborhood the south side or the North Side the side towards the end as you go past school and past the school yeah right around the school Washington Court is where live on that corner so it's it's uh you could see it was worker housing to one side a classic worker housing uh 1870s 1880s Greek Revival and then suddenly on the other side of wash Court Street opens up and you get um more sophisticated bigger homes updated you can see more more fan F and air really does follow the old miltown yes it does you know story of Mill workers in the lowlands owners in the highlands and when you go to these towns like or cities like l and a for that matter the bigger homes and the more expensive homes the old old ones anyway are on the hill someplace and the worker bees are in the valley down below it's whether you're in Amsterdam New York which is you know home of kico and it's just a workman's man oldfashioned Upstate New York town same story there everywhere you go yeah it's how it's like growing up in Framingham that's the same way you know Southside is you know the less affluent North Side Main Street worker be homes you know for the most part slow lands actually it used to flood years ago but on zoning this is a non-conforming house 75 feet fronted under 10,000 FT Property okay right so again I'm I'm but it was not built onto the car zoning no no no it's it's pre 1970s uh but my uh argument is that you know if if you have if you can you know somehow alter the zoning in addition to the parking you get homes like this right right yes and then and as you go further up as as it's you know the more affluent history there are properties uh that have more open space that could have infill if the zoning permitted it if it permitted right so now the price is up to 550 you know this is again a very it is a desirable neighborhood in town um has a lot of the old features in it what is the most desirable neighborhood in town oh it depends really it depends on what what you consider desirable for some people it's different for everybody as downtown is the most desirable neighborhood quite frankly it's wherever you like to live quite frankly some people won't even look at talking price that's a different story but just because it's an expensive neighborhood does not mean desirable MH you know what's desirable to the person who's living in an expensive neighborhood might not be desirable to someone else uh but the most expensive neighborhoods are are probably the newer homes pingry Hill you know pick out anything that was built in the last 5 years if they built 10 or more of them together it's probably one of the Ben it's Crossing is that what it's called yeah Bennett's crossing crossing although that's getting a little older yeah uh Shaker mil the new can we we talk about that a little bit if we could if we could talk about subdivisions for a minute CU because this town is a weird mix between the individual homes built before the age of subdivisions and then of course in the last 40 50 years it's subdivisions and I my suspicion is that they age differently my is my suspicion in terms of value and attractiveness I mean people will look at a monard roof like in mind oh there's something attractive about even though it needs work you know you know it's all for you m now what I want to know is well what happens to a subdivision when it loses its shine give me 20 30 years what what what's going on 10 year the first 10 years of let's say you just bought you built a house today right for 10 years that will probably incre that'll be its biggest increases within that 10 years within the first 10 years it's still fresh young yeah after 10 years some things start to need repair you know that type of thing um and so that it doesn't necessarily decrease in value but it doesn't increase as much it's leveling it's levels levels off to some degree and then you start getting back to an age where someone starts to restore the old house and Bo it goes up again because now I've got a new old house which is a thing in itself you know there's a whole club of people that that's what they want yeah uh there's still a club of people looking for something that was built in the 177 50s and 1800s that hasn't been touched if possible you know it's like finding an old car in a garage right you know hasn't been touched it's an original car so a lot of people will pay more money for that because it's an original hasn't been repainted or anything like that so again it depends on you know where you live depends on who you are same thing when you buy a house I mean there are houses that we say oh my God this will never sell and it goes within an hour and a half you know because it just hit it right there are people out there there's a buyer for everything we always say it's just what what is the price if it's the right price there's a buyer for it the the so to speak on what you're saying is like subdivisions versus so you also look at it you know like my house I bought it's an old it's an older subdivision um but like it was extended years and years later so on the the extension of where I live is is a little bit newer than the older houses but it's still 1975 so what we we bought that and then we rehab the inside you know sand the floors paint it you know you do those the the you know the buff you know visual exactly fluff and buff exactly so listen I I just I want to we we we invited you here for about 15 minutes max and I love having you here this is great so I want to respect your time you're welcome for as long as you want to be but I also want to give you a way out so that you don't feel obligated because you've been here for over an hour we really and we can always do made a sale we can always do another session if if you guys feel you know there is more information anytime I think I I think it looks likely we'll have you back if that well let me just let me just wrap it up you look in your in your folder yep on the right hand side go all the way to the last page the front page by the way on the MBTA that oh you do have rent oh goody we did a lot of rental stuff too page you can throw away because the MBTA is in as you know is in court I don't know how they made of today I know I didn't know if I didn't look yeah I didn't I haven't seen was in court today in the was going to take months for not yeah I don't know all I know is our MBTA goes in we're putting it in uh in this fall okay okay so help me this is the rental sheet uh year to date this year so these are right up to date from January to now so bedrooms GLA is gross living area are price per month this average bedroom what's SF per month say again square foot square footage per month $2.40 oh oh if you're a commercial minded person that's how you sell commercial I get it I I usually don't see that in res you don't normally see it resal but we do sell commercial so it's kind of an afterthought little bit different way of looking at residential real estate if you will but for the commercial guy they'll understand it better with the column like that uh and then the dollar per square foot is 20 you know the first across the top that's acting 2964 uh air is 2496 um you can see the the variances there and again the size the average size of the units vary so it's not dollar for dollar if you will right right right but it what it does do is it tells you in general terms when someone for us at least when they come in the office we say what would you like to spend and they say $400 and we say okay did you bring your automobile we're going Beyond Gardner we're going to AOL we're going to Al New York yeah Troy so Troy here we come yeah exactly it's crazy n so you can see no NASA would fall in Nash is high is expensive yeah it's high okay so the average the highest average is Westford of the towns I have on the list at least M uh you get 1787 Square ft which is you know a good size that is good size unit yeah um so they don't have small units in Westford now keep in mind most of these are single family homes of some type yeah they just don't have many apartment buildings in West they do have Route 110 there's a lot there's new a lot of new construct or newer that are like 20 units in a building and then there's prinston properties is probably the one of the larger landlords now in Greater L but Westford also and then there's some 55 plus yeah properties that those don't fall into these numbers okay yeah the 55 over does do not fall okay we have no way of tracking them it's not public if you will um but anyway the price per month in air the average apartment is 2.0 two bedrooms uh the average gross size is one just over 1,000 square feet and the price per month is just over $2,000 $28 uh and it's also $28 per square um and that compares you know kind of again in the middle of of this list if what you expect you know Fitchburg is again sort of towards the bottom although this time it looks like peil took uh the prize U at 1846 but there's not a lot of rental in not a lot of inventory yeah um they're all rented so so Fitchburg again takes the so Ron I think one of the takeaways I heard was there seem to be this postco ripple effect from Boston that that the dollars just keep going out and out right so we're catching we're catching the wave off of Acton uh and then and then Gardener's catching the wave off of us right and pretty soon we'll be acon yeah and people will make the first stop here as their first choice but is there but then we'll move on to probably end up quite frankly in the Gardner area it's really a matter the only thing holding back is the fact that the public transportation out that way is not very good if it's almost non-existent it's difficult to get around and it's difficult to get there can't get there route two is pretty much the only route which is certainly not fun any more fun than most places at rush hour take the smaller train doesn't go there anymore correct no hope probably ever going but you have a you have a bounce back cuz now you've got devans with 10,000 tech level you know these 150k incomes you know you can get those in Devin right technically yes and so is that is that like here's what we see are are we caught between and so you're getting both now up Boston what we see with devans uh first of all there's been no sales in devans whatsoever this month and no rentals because there's nothing that's why they're not on the chart there's nothing there there nothing available they're also condos everything in Devin has an HOA whether you buy the house or not you pay an HOA so that's also figured that it's got to be you know that raises your yeah if you buy if you buy a condominium an equal priced condominium with the single family if you compare them side by side the single family is cheaper right because the condo fee enters into it it's an additional amount of money uh we see that all the time people can't qualify for the condo but they can qualify for the single family which makes no sense whatsoever keep in mind the reason that a lot of condos were built was were built in resort areas it's only they weren't first built right in air Massachusetts they they were only Built here because of price that's the only reason since you have such great history here uh my last question um there are uh on on East Main Street and up close to high school there's um couple there's there's some multi-unit some multi family building bu brick brick one's up there and then you've got the uh 108 yes yep what happened historically that the developer wanted to do that in the 80s they were more they were 70s '70s yeah what was the interest what do you mean the interest well how did how how was how what was the market pressure that said I don't want to put up a single family I want to put up a multi some of those were brought on like at 108 main there used to be two buildings there was a fire one burnt out and a lot of those were military active duty military that they didn't have space for them on post and so they a developer came in and said this is a perfect market for GIS they're small units if you've ever been in any of them they're they're tiny Littleton line yeah same same same kind of of situation there is what warranted those they didn't have them it was military demand pretty much yeah same as de was military demand the man's not there but we don't have it with devans with with uh young single employees coming to devans and looking for quick I don't know not as much we have more AC the beginning we did yeah uh we probably get more soldiers still than we do people who work we still get a lot of soldiers that come in amazing never have guessed that and honestly even when he had the 15 locations when we were looking at air I I opened 14 of those locations for him I have never seen the walk-in business that we get on Main Street in air it is amazing the soldiers that walk in off the people that walk in off the street that just you know can you help me uh I love when people come in and they go do you sell real estate no I was just waiting for you to come I know you'd come with a question but of course I can't say that but you know they they want to know they want information how many people do we get that are retired military we had a fell in the other day that re that graduated from Air High School in 1961 lives in New York and he said didn't this used to be the drugstore we were like probably he said that's the soda fountain he said to his wife where we used to have a soda we were in high school and we get more people that course you've been through our office so they're they're walking through and they're going I remember that place I remember that place that's the I sign and then cuz we have signs you know from Days Gone By but they come in all the time and people that are just coming to visit that haven't been here they go to Devin cuz that's where they retired from or that's was their first Duty post and they come in and they're just AED at the Town MH and the small town it still has that homey feel kind of thing and that's what they said the people from New York they were like it still feels like home when we drive into town here which was kind of nice to hear I'm sure some people wouldn't want to hear it but it was kind of nice to hear that they felt that way getting back getting back to what you said earlier about you know what makes air attractive that is another thing that makes it very attractive small town it's still a small town it is a small town but it really has a small town feel I mean we again and how do we know that well you know we've been in the downtown for a long time people just walk in off the street they're not buying real estate they're sitting there just to talk about what's going on in town a lot of times we know what's happening in town then the town knows what's happening that's why come in to drop by and say hello yeah so it's amazing you know we have Selectmen who come in we have planning board people who come in you know it isn't just anybody as well as the general population and then we get the Out of Towners who were at Fort devans years ago and they've come back to see what it's like now they find takes five minutes to see what it's like there's nothing much there for them to see anymore except the museum I guess and and so they end up in downtown and we're always open 7 days a week particularly on a Saturday or Sunday we will get more traffic coming in for directions or you know if the town would run a tourist bureau down in our office it would probably be helpful we actually that kind of place we joke about our office being like Floyd's Barber Shop on Indian because we've had people been elected to offices in town who come in and said we were told the town hall we have to sit in the chair and we sort of joke about it because people come in just to chat just to visit just to introduce themselves just to meet other towns people you know and we both live in town so we try to promote the town and even some people weren't elected yeah there you go yeah even some that weren't elected come in and say this is my last s in chair um can I ask a can you paint a little and you've done like little bits and pieces but a picture of like the the folks that are coming in and buying these single family homes like what communities are they moving from and where are they working and so you're saying they're they're looking at Acton Westford Littleton they can't afford it so they look to air they go a little bit further out and then they go a little bit further out so they go until they find a price point and a property that they can afford that is desirable for them their perfect location and they could be working anywhere so I mean like an example I lived in Newton and I was like all right I I can't live here I need I want more space I want so that's where I ended up looking at I originally started looking at acting Westford all that like and then I was like oh okay I can't maybe not that and I I ended up in chsb I got lucky but like you know it's moving away from a lot of people are moving out of the Cities from Co working from home being able to do being able to do the same amount of work and not having to go into the cities so that's where I mean that's where I saw a lot of that change um and you see the people moving out more West but I mean I think eventually you will see that migration back into the city again but chord used to be the affordable when my parents were buying 100 years ago but I was one of 10 kids my mother's house had 16 rooms wow they paid less than $30,000 for that house it's crazy when you think about it today yeah and that house today is probably 7 or $800,000 yep it's nuts and would you say there's that East migration that that the folks that are buying an air they tend to work and be more East oriented um yeah in general they're working east yeah in general unless it but we also get another segment of the population that does come this way from the West to us coming back down route to because they're trying to get closer to the east because they bought their first house in Lemon Store Fitchburg area they're now selling it and now they can afford to move back to air okay back this way back this way I see so they'd rather be closer to Boston so would you say that it tends to be more first time home bu yeah home buyers like what is the I'm I'm just asking for like the patterns I guess there there is there really is no pattern even if we took a tally it would come out about 25% 25% so forth yeah there's enough spread in town in variety she's looking for the statistics yeah she's trying to be the statistic find the uhwe line it's all in this book okay you get off the train you go wander in yeah sounds like she'll never get out train I want to thank Pat wonderful wonderful presentation and I appreciate you being so patient with our questions and I hope that we can see you again it be great because this has been not just information but an important conversation and I really appreciate your willingness to come here and and and share your experience with us thanks a lot much appreciated thank you for all your hard work for answering all the questions for thank you so next item on the agenda we have uh Shaker mil Pond Road this is the AO property right yes and this is the um release of the bond and I believe we have a letter saying go for it yes I have an email that I gave to everybody um I sent it in in on Friday um I checked with the DPW just to make sure that they were all set with the final release um there's about 60,000 so the the it's uh yeah it's about $60,000 um the um they were okay with the final release everything had been checked off as we had talked about at the street acceptance um so uh at this point um they were fine with the board releasing the the final amount and um and then we'll just end up at you know doing the street acceptance of town meeting okay great this project is a little bit different than we did with curlyy because curle had some outstanding issues just so that everyone understands why this one is being released versus why little uh curly cirle didn't so I I'll make a motion to what's the right verb approve or to release the final release to to make the release the final Bond release in the amount of $6,890 Julie how do you vote Yes Kathleen yes Nathan i j votes I it's released thank you and there's something for me to sign tomorrow or I'll have that one written up for you whenever just let me know uh because I'll be out Friday I'll be way okay um good and then and so now we're up to uh project status updates what do we got yes uh so uh I have something new for everybody it's on it's from um the uh it's about the National Grid project um and then can you pass that to Kathleen I can um so the remember at the last at our last meeting uh we wrote in in a in a condition into the decision that if any changes were to happen from conservation that they'd have to come back in to amend their plans um depending on if they're major or minor um so here are some comments that came out of D and this was one of my bigger uh reasons I was hesitant to move forward with it but I put that condition into the decision to uh allow them to move forward and um and if anything came out of it this is what came out of the D comments um so can I ask you to come up and um just to give them an update it's going to come better from you I have have email fundamentally the question is what happens next yes so I'm let her explain the the the bigger items that that have come out of this and then I can I mean I haven't really gone gone through them I was like oh that's fun um so they have actually revised some of the plans um I have those I got those I think yesterday or today um to include some of the items on here um in regards to the D comments um the the main question I think I have that I'm going to be sending to them tomorrow um is in regards to I think one of the comments further down which was actually the fact that since the the Project's not actually expanding at all why they're actually having to fill Wetlands yes so the access row that they're putting in that's filling in the wetlands the the main question that I have which DP had as well is why does that even need to exist if the sub station's not getting bigger I understand it may be easier to get around but that's not a reason to fill one flood plane into two wetlands and that's going to be that's our biggest issue that's that was and that was my that's my biggest that was Heather's and that was Matt's biggest concern when we did the review was what is the what was the additional what was the reason for the additional driveway and for the additional expansion on that side when really nothing was being put in there um and based on the the comment that we got was they needed it for full access around the build that's what they told us I that and I of course didn't really believe it but you know who am I to say if National Grid is you know that's what their attorney is saying and their design team is saying this gives me more this gives backup for what our concern was corre because they were filling in more Wetlands also filling in more land subject to the coastal I mean subject of flooding so it was a cascading effect that I felt like you're doing this there's no reasoning behind it but you're you're having more of an impact than it's necessary and and the other one is the fact that so the reason why National Grids allowed to do a lot of their work and basically ignore the ACT is is they are exempt unfortunately a portion of their project is non-exempt which got spelled out by by by u d so that's the other project of too so there is reason to deny based on that because it is non-exempt project and certain aspects of it and that's for the underground cond I think is what they're yeah so does that mean they come back to us so what's going to happen is they're going to have to address these issues through the D through D and through cons I just got their comments this afternoon I haven't reviewed them yet so once they get through there and the Conservation Commission either approves or denies it whatever happens you know and a and if a final plan is you know approved whatever happens depending on if that's a major change or minor change they that's where the condition comes in so if it's a minor change like something simple like you know the the fence line moved or this you know those smaller things that's a minor change and that's something that they could just submit those approved plant to me if it's a more drastic change which is like the whole that whole extra aisle gets moved away you know they're not filling in wetlands and and doing all that work that's a major change they would have to come back to us that's what the D is saying we don't like that correct but we're going to have to wait until the the processes we have to wait but we can anticipate the likelihood the likelihood yes you look at the comment so from the last four on the page the are the most considering those are the the the fact that the work is not um exempt the the second to the the other two in regards to the fact that the storm water permit was basically non-existent correct so D is asking for the TSS removal which isn't included in the plan that was approved um along with the omm plan because they basically said they didn't have to which D calls out like where is are these things and then the fact that the gravel road is um why is that needed yeah so those four comments are the are the most um outstanding on that end so that that I would be calling out on them as well because you're you the board issued them a storm water permit without doing any TSS remove without any doing total software Sol REM and so and and just so that the board understands why this did happen is is you know we did a review of this this was a big concern of mine I made it known but based on the calculations based on the storm water report I was told that it meets the it met the bylaw so and that was my biggest question there's no bmps you're not you have meet your bylaw but it's not meeting the the the conservation side of it yeah so they'll have there's there's there's a lot that may come out of this that big changes I don't know what wait until the process is done with conservation and then at that point I'll know but as a practical matter if I were them it seems like the cheapest option for them is just to do this just to follow this are they going to really going to invest in fighting back against this it's it's it's I don't it's National Grid so I you met the guy that was here exactly I did me I know I I met them and I got it I got some sense of way but what I'm saying is you know for these big companies like this they just just go all right you know I mean they tried to get it's it's very possible that they'll just do it just do it it's very possible that there might be some more back and forth so I I and there there may be a concession I don't know but it's really we're going to have to wait until the process is complete before we are ready to make any are they scheduled to come before the this Thursday oh that'll be interesting [Music] okay a question uh on that this project but not related to this specific is there was um at that meeting I think his name is Josh yep Josh he's their um attorne right and so there was discussion about um the town getting an easement and taking that over what happened with that oh so the decision states that the um that they're going to um they are going to uh uh provide the town with an easement oh yeah and and cuz he seemed a little um hesitant to do that know if that yeah no he said like I to that's why at the end of the meet I mean at the end of basically you know us discussing it I said based on Town Council what Town Council has told us it has to be an easement there's no other so there was no issue no there was no other way they had they knew they had to do it based on what Town Council had said okay good yeah okay thank you thank you that much appreciated so that's that's the update on on National much appreciated and um we'll keep our eyes open um so next week next week on the 22nd um the board will be getting a uh informal uh presentation from um the fields they're going to be showing the board their preliminary plan for uh their project I have seen the plan I've had uh we Heather and I have had a couple meetings with them excuse me but when you said preliminary though it's preliminary preliminary they're not really coming with a preliminary plan as we think of it under osrd they're coming with a tentative speculative idea concept right um I mean are they really coming before us to talk about a preliminary plan I mean that's a formal thing no no no so it's not it's not a preliminary subdivision because even that they're not making a submission under that it won't be it'll be an osrd and can I just clarify for people if they're watching on APAC um the fields is what we've referred to the project at the high school for years as so I it's the person's name I understand but I think we just need to clarify that this is not related to the high school and the projects that's recently completed and looks awesome there yes no this is not related to any project of you know related to the town and or fields or anything the the applicants the the the developer name is is their last name is Fields one of the things I I don't when when they come informally yeah that what I'm confused is so other towns they within their bylaws they have a um a mechanism that it's a preliminary uh meeting that basically a site plan meeting where they come in they'll show you a proposed plan it's an early like usually it's in the 50% uh engineering phase they come in and they say this is what we're looking at to propose and bring to the board we'd like to get your comments high level comments on what you think you would like to see trails or this or that you know the high level information that they can Implement into the plan so when they come in you know you guys have seen it you guys know what's coming and it's not that cuz they'll still have to do a full review you guys will still do all of your normal processes you do with site plans and and and anything subdivisions but it's it just gives uh it's a extra ra step that applicants can take and gives the board an extra chance to get early comments in you know it's something that so we did that in Salsbury you see that in Framingham you see this in a lot of towns now that they're moving towards because it does move the process a little faster and it also makes it so that the planning board knows you're coming into this with a little bit of an idea of what the project is okay that sounds fun um so I think the board will be very happy with what what they're proposing but um you know you'll see on the 22nd um Stratton Hill is coming so Stratton Hill is coming on the 22nd you haven't said otherwise so far no so the peer review should be completed by the 15th give or take um the peer review will be here uh will be either on Zoom or in person I I don't know yet for the meeting have our first real substantive discussion about the project go through comments go through plans go through basically all the outstanding issues that we still haven't talked about open space um uh the common driveways um there's there's a lot of different things that we need to discuss the storm water special permit so there's some outstanding issues um and it'll be our first real big conversation about the new plan uh I just want to make sure so I sent it to everybody to make sure everyone starts getting a good look at what's going to be coming cuz it is a big package there's a lot of comments there's a lot of uh and and the plans are pretty big so I everyone should try to start just taking some time before the meeting to start looking at that okay great um anything else on that no I just wanted to touch on last night's presentation just really quickly so last night's presentation I thought was very uh it was very educational very it helped me understand what I think I'm going to be looking for into to creating this small cottage style bylaw how I'm leaning as myself is making it a mechanism under the osrd um kind of like it would basically be you'd be applying under the osrd but it's its own different type of mechanism which would have additional incentives and um to to you know build them at smaller sizes and and so I think this will help I think address a lot of your concerns on creating those more affordable houses and I think even the 1100 to 1400 I still think is a little bit bigger than what I I see envisioning for a small cottage style bylaw you know I think I'm thinking more 900 square ft to like you know 1200 ft would be at the most cuz then you're keeping the numbers much much lower um but I thought it was good uh you know looking at the designs looking at all that I think I want to touch base with him and just kind of pick his brains on what he thinks you know because he said that he's only done it under a 40b that's so that to me is is the little bit of the difficult part because now it's like all right so I have to really create something from scratch because there's really no other mechanism that he's ever done done it under so it's going to be a little bit of work and and it's going to take some time on that one it's going to be a lot of I'm sorry I didn't mean Danny if I if I may say if I make a suggestion MH so I would suggest that instead of putting your effort and time into making it perfect M I would say make the time to to get something that's a foundation for discussion to be challenged Y and where we can probe Define the weaknesses anticipate how people developers respond to it and that way and then we'll change it yes you see where I'm going because if you go and invest it and you think oh I got it perfect then going to get a right we're not going to get it but if you get it and say look this is a let's have this conversation let's get started what do we like what we don't like what we do and then let's mold it and keep molding it and then because we have time yeah okay but yeah if I could piggy back with data like these are there what is developable a yeah right so doing a looking at the the specific lands that are capable of things we talked about is you know really there aren't going to be very few next week will probably be the last 20 plus uh development we see in this town that's out that's out in in a uh outside the downtown yeah yeah um so I think I'd like to you know and I'll help out in the committee that this would be um you know there there's there's actual properties right it's not it's not theoretical yeah yeah yeah definitely and and then so one other thing I so Kathleen and I had had a conversation previously about the inclusionary housing bylaw and the density bonus density so oh yeah I told you you know it's a very rare occasion and it's for people who most likely want to provide more affordable that gentleman is the exact to the tea thing reason we put that in because he purposely wants to build 40 BS wants to build affordable and he's the kind of gentleman who I who we specifically looking for to those bonus densities would be working for right so just so that you can see an example like he is the type of person type of developer we'd be looking for for bonus densities okay great any further on the projects can we go to the meeting minutes yeah meeting minutes um they were sent out to everybody I they sent out I sent out a revision but then Jeff added two more comments did you have a chance to see they're very Min everyone got so uh the motion for the uh minutes did you roll mine in too what's up did you roll my comments in oh I didn't know you had com I didn't see any comments I send them to you directly cuz I didn't when did they when did you send them noon I didn't did you oh did they only go to him oh okay I didn't see it I'm sorry what was it what what was it yeah I can't support it if it's not in there at least what is it oh just the the um the way my comments were can we just fix it now I don't have it I don't have my thing um do you want to in here as you do you have your email do you or does either of you have your emails yeah I mean you could you could vote to approve of them but if but you you get a majority but I I I don't think it's accurate the way but can we fix it so it is accurate that's what I that's what I'm saying do you have your do you have access to your email or do you remember can you we just fix it I I no cuz I sent it through the Outlook I I don't have access to my oh on your phone on your no um do you have access to your outlook on your phone you want my computer okay we'll let it be you know what we'll we'll just postpone it next we'll postpone the the make a note of that and just make a note that we got to include Nathan's comments and Jeff's comment I'm I'm sorry just and then so if we can if you when you do respond yeah I'll add you yeah I just didn't want it to be a public meeting oh no no no yeah just just respond to at least myself Jonathan and Sam just so that at least one of us sees it okay yeah I I I'm I'm sorry I didn't see okay that's okay um do I have a motion to ATT turn so moves second all right everyone great meeting thank you everybody have a wonderful evening thank you for your help out other