##VIDEO ID:VDbrA-GI2xk## hello and welcome to the Tuesday August 27th 2024 meeting of the air planning board this meeting hearing of the air planning board will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this inperson meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance and or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for inperson versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID number 833 6548 0732 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Danny Ruiz Town planner at D RI a.m. us or 978 772 8220 extension 144 prior to the meeting um first order of business is to approve the agenda I'd like to make two suggestions one is I'd like to invert the public hearings for Scully Road and Stratton Hill start with Stratton close it's a real quick thing and then we can dedicate a bulk of our time to zero Scully Road and the other change is that during the project status update I'd like to tell the board about the Adu webinar that Barrett Associates hosted this afternoon that said um I'd like to approve the agenda With The Changes suggested by the chair seconded okay uh any further discussion hearing none Ken how do you vote I Julie yes Kathleen hi Nathan hi Jeff hi J votes I uh so the first thing is uh the continued public hearing for uh off right Road for Stratton Hill map 6 Parcels 1 2 3781 through 55 and we have a request for continuance Jeff would you be so kind thank you we received a letter from attorney Robert L Collins on August 12th 2024 to the air planning board Town Hall 1 Main Street a mass 01432 regarding Fox Metro realy Corporation molon Construction Corporation Locust Stratton Hill definitive subdivision right Road dear board members we are in receipt of the peer review comments and those from the public works department Frank mcpartland and the engineers from Dillis and Roy are working on responses with an aim to have them submitted to both the DPW and green International by the 26th I would thus like to request that the hearing be continued to the meeting on September 10th this will provide sufficient time for green to review the responses and Dillis androy to provide whatever further revisions may be needed we can also go over the responses with with the Department of Public Works to make certain their concerns are addressed kindly also consider this letter as a request that the time by which the board must complete its hearing hearings and file a decision on this matter be extended until September 30th 2024 thanking the board for its time and consideration I remain very truly yours Robert L Collins thank you just before we get to the motion um so just so the board knows this has been a time stamp posted on the wall like for the extensions are they're supposed to go um as well as uh we will be having a meeting tomorrow with the DPW and um uh the representatives for s Hill to go through some of the comments that um the peer review and DPW had so at the September 10th meeting we'll have green International there as well here um to help you know uh answer any questions that may come up okay great so I need a a motion for the continuance right to the next meeting you're so good at this Jeff may I impose continue for the letter from attorney Collins to to the for Straten Hill definitive subdivision right road to the September 10th planning board meeting seconded any further discussion yes yes okay so this 20-day difference between the 10th and the 30th that's been consistent throughout the extensions that we've given them they've they've varied um month I'm getting become 30 to 20 to no no no no no they've varied I if I if I call and it could be a base they picked like the end of the current month just to keep extending it out I don't I I I think it's just sometimes depending on when they were asking the from the continuance for uh some of times the extension was longer sometimes they were shorter depending on what month they were asking the continuance from I I think if I may I think what the he's basing it on where the work is being done so if dill Ro needs more time and DPW needed time he was giving longer longer extensions at that point but you know I just want to make sure that when we go to the next meeting we have the option of extending that we have two so we'll have two meetings prior to the this running out cu so we have the September 10th meeting we have the September 24th meeting we can always uh if and remember if you request a Contin if the applicant requests a continuance on themselves that is by a fact them extending the time for you to act to that next meeting yeah I'm just always concerned when they put a date positive date in there we always so that's how it's always been and that's why we've been keeping track of them um on the wall for every time it's been extended we put a new one up take down the old one okay everyone else comfortable with you know the idea y right okay good I just don't think we'll make it by September 30th I doubt it very much well no well I mean last time so the the extension for the previous one before this was um um July 31st so they or August 31st so they had already requested they're just moving at a month at time they're just they keep they've been moving it depending on where they were with the peer review where they were with providing cont um the first extension or one of the extensions they provided in like April was for uh uh June so it's like it really varies on what they see of how how many meetings and and what needs to be done but if you remember in April they would bring us new plans and they w't going to get completed until July at that correct yeah I think I actually think I think I believe attorney Collinson I think he said to us the extensions are here but I'm always open to a consideration of what the board requests okay so any further discussion none Ken how do you vote yes Julie yes Kathleen yes hi Jeff hi chair votes hi thank you okay so the uh we need a a a formal um motion to open the public hearing so I I move that we open the public hearing for zero Scully Road map 33 parcel 3 site plan review and major Stone Mor management permit per point of order do we have to do we read the announcement the the advertisement before we make that motion or after um so or after we make the motion we don't have to read the announcement cuz I have the information that's basically on the announcement on and the legal notice doesn't have to be read into the record cuz it's already part of the record but if you guys want to I can print it out for you it's not a I think it's redund so I think we're okay so there's a motion on table do I have a second second any further discussion Arin none Ken hi Julie yes Kathleen yes hi Jeff yes sh hi so we're opening zero SC Z the site plant and the major storm water did you read that to you said yes I did thanks uh the way this is going to work the town planner Danny will set this up and then we're going to turn to the applicant applicant will do a narrative we open to the board for comment and questions and then if there's any public of uh here who would like to comment they will be uh allowed to invited to come up and make their comments so Danny give us the uh give us the background yes all right so um in may we had an uh our pre-application meeting with the applicant and the engineers um just to kind of as part of our site plan review um process um at that meeting we had some discussions about the plans and the use um there was a little back and forth between uh the applicants um attorney and uh Charlie uh the Building Commissioner on the use and the caretakers unit within the on the property um that was settled and uh Charlie had issued that the carak unit could to to the warehouse may I ask Danny when you say it's settled by The Building Commissioner does that mean that uh that's not available for discussion at this board we can discuss it I um uh I know there was some questions about uh the size of the caretakers unit and uh whether or not it's considered a an accessory dwelling an accessory unit uh use or it's really more but that's open to discuss but Charlie did opine on it and I I am going to be discussing uh bringing that to Charlie's PR and to be able to uh provide the board with information that uh the Board needs um so uh they made their application um based on uh the the application and our pre-application meeting they they had addressed a lot of the concerns that uh myself and Heather you had raised during that initial meeting um so when they came in with this uh with the news with the application that you see before us there was minimal uh comments that came in uh there were some that was from the DPW some that came in from conservation and um I did not have any comments cuz they had address all my comments uh during the pre-application and uh I believe fire had another had a comment as well um the applicant did provide a response letter to all of those and they did include uh the comments from uh Mass d uh they've applied for um an noi through conservation so they're in the process with that as well and that was continued to 266 26 um so they've already had a meeting through conservation right and so uh at this point um if you like and there's four waiver requests yes and there is there are four waiver requests which I can quickly go through with you guys um and so on the site plan you'll see and there's also within the U application so it's uh the first one is from uh site plan regulations Section 4 E2 which is to provide a traffic impact uh statement details um this is a small Pro uh property small project really very minimal uh traffic in and out um so the applicant has requested a waiver uh the next one is site plan regulation section 4 F3 site plan application section uh C which is the pro uh provided bicycle parking accommodation within the site uh this site is a commercial use for um uh they're going to do uh fire sprinkler monitoring as well as Warehouse so this is not going to be a site that will be really getting uh pedestrian you know uh any uh retail there's no retail here so it's it's not a site that will need uh bicycle part right um and then s plan regulations Section 4 G2 s plan application uh so provide photometric plan for the outdoor uh lighting based on that uh so uh the applicant is only going to be having um lights on the build on the building which are down um dark SC compliant uh So based on the use is also also that there's really there's really nothing around this site there are a couple um uh abutters across the street but they are proposing some Landscaping buffer around the um along long Skully road so I don't see that as an impact as well as a during the night it it's not like they're going to be on all night um so uh that's the other waiver that they're requesting and then last one is from the local storm water management um uh bylaw and that's the uh the waiver from section 210b which is the easement for the town to be able to Main maintain um the storm water but since this is a private site and will remain private they they're um they're requesting a waiver that's which it states in the bylaw and I just want to say for the record that I do appreciate that in the application there were clear reasons for each of the waiver requests and that's the right way to do it thank you um so if you two would introduce yourselves and then whoever's taking the lead on it I imagine it be you Lim feel free you have the floor but both of you by uh if you give us your name and addresses please certainly uh liot GPR Paul Joy I'm the owner of commercial fire and the property PA Paul Joy yeah Joy Jo like Joy to the World excellent welcome welcome and I believe the uh the property as well as the applicant name is under commercial Fire Systems commercial Fire Systems yeah which Paul is the the owner of um so we'll we'll jump straight into it I think Danny um summarized a lot about the uh project already but I'll just go straight to the existing site so the existing property is an existing um um light industrial zoning district and as you can see located across the street are a row of residential houses on the south and Southeastern corner you have the know town of Devon landfill mhm and north of the property you have the um you know obviously the driveway going into the park as well as the uh the brook which names I can never pronounce um located on there uh cus n a cus we have uh we have delineated the Wetland bordering the the brook as well as provided Zone AE which is the 100-year flood plane associated with the brook uh as you can see here um we actually drafted the line in based on the elevation provided by FEA map a little bit tough to see here let me see I can zoom in elevation 22.8 so you know as you know as soon as you mess with 100-year flood plane you have to provide compon stor flood storage and you know all the all the bolts and whistle with it um so jumping into the site plan itself the proposed building is uh know commercial use that has uh warehouse and interior storage for this portion you see here and attached on the North side is the proposed residential dwelling as Danny had mentioned we had gone and uh had this discussion with Charlie about uh what is allowed by right under industrial use and he made a determination which allowed us to provide the residential uh dwelling as uh an attachment to the um Warehouse use um the there will be a propos driveway that comes off of um in the same general area as his existing stub um I think it's a bugs there regularly um so he'll be providing a 20 foot wide driveway come down brings you to the back of the the site there we'll have sorry I didn't mean to but one of the things that I'm puzzled about is I see the warehouse mhm I see the dwelling right the car where does the monitoring take place on this the actual mon I imagine monitors displays giving you input on where there is as far as the alarm monitor yeah yeah the Alarm Monitoring which is the purpose an office you know is it so is it on here or is it it's inside the architectural the AR the a plan there okay and I'm I'm curious it's connected to the master bedroom too I thought that was interesting okay I'm sorry please continue guy lives his work so I'll talk a little bit about the uh the monitor room so I think this portion here I also have the uh uh the application open on in another page that you can look at it and oh it's on the second floor of that section so right above the the garage there really oh okay so it's above it you gotcha um and there's a fire pole in there too so I'll speak to that a little bit um you know Paul had worked for fire department for you know over 35 years I'm retired lieutenant at out of Bedford Mass so uh you know being a fire uh in in the fire department for 35 years he has you know antique fire truck that he want to keep um in this garage Bay here so obviously we made sure to give him enough room for getting the the vehicle in and out um so to kind of continue about the the parking the driveway comes down goes to the back of the site M we are providing six parking spaces at the back here as well as two uh for the 2 Bay garage Bay over here um as you can see we provided snow storage as well as um a little bit of a rip wrap area at the end of this driveway so um you know relatively steep driveway we're going to be cutting it a bit it's not going to be as steep as the existing as you're coming down um there's going to be sufficient room for the plow to push the snow to this spot here and have it melt and then know drain through the rip wrap gets into the sediment 4 Bay and we're also providing snow storage at the back of the uh parking lot parking area here um really those are the only two locations that make sense for a plow to kind of go through and push to and place them so that it can melt and then get into the Basin um as Danny had mentioned we we are providing a lot of um planting um as you can see at the front here you have a row of aites um really shielding the the commercial portion of the proposed building to the um residential dwellings across the street and as part of you know work inside the buffer limit we are removing some trees and per um town of air conservation regulations we're supposed to provide replacement planting if you're doing tree to tree is one to one or one to three shrubs um we had asked that during the uh approval stage or as part of the approval condition um for for the planting will work with the concom agent to actually go out there stake the 100ft buffer figure out how many trees were taken out and then provide the appropriate amount of out planting um I think we are providing some already but Paul has no problem um you know increasing that number so just so we can match it um to mitigate for all the uh proposed impervious on site we're providing uh infiltration chambers that have been located in the backyard um this set of Chambers will take in the direct roof discharge from the building and anything that's not captured by the roof discharge will get picked up by the settlement forway into the infiltration Basin back here so let me jump to the next page as you can see um you know everything is directed from um the top of the driveway there coming down and we try to minimize the amount of grading that we do on site so that we're we're staying outside of this 100-year uh flood line so we're not touching the flood plane at all and excuse me the m so just expand the um magnification on that just right where it sits thank you I just couldn't figure out the slope I couldn't read numbers from here ah okay um so we try to say out the H blood plane and as you can see right here this is where we have the 50ft no disturb uh Wetland buffer limit which we're also staying far away from I want to say at the closest distance is you know probably right around here about 15 ft um so minimal disturbance I would say and it's strictly just for the grading associated with the um the Basin itself and the infiltration is basically going to be in the yard subsurface in the yard yes thank you um I'm sorry I'm having trouble reading this where's the the actual drain itself where's where's the water going to get to the infiltration Basin where's the actual so help me with my vocabulary the roof train Roof oh oh called rdd right there yeah and then the Overflow is to the right and goes out and there's a structure there of keeping it clean so the water what about the water from the imper she she flow that'll she flow onto the rip wrap oh I see okay you're going so fast man that into theow y it'll she flow into the Basin please prer to stop me anytime uh but but if I'm if I understood you to be you're going to capture all the water on the structure into the infiltration Bay yes anything that falls on the property not on the structure will she off and it's handled by rip wrap it's going to go into the sediment 4 bayas and then go over the four base way into the Bas got it yep right here so you see the arrows yep oh I see it's going to come from here and then fill up over that and this this is the over fill there okay thank you so um when we were out there doing solo testing for the drainage uh system system uh we do have great uh Great Sand material out there um so very well draining sand um some of this down rocks man it's rare to come byy site like these now but anyway the the spillway that we provided um is an actual emergency Spillway I think believe during the 100e storm it doesn't actually uh over top it um if it comes close I think with in like an inch in the in the model but this is a true emergency Spillway where you have storms that over 100 year it might go over that's or for a mon last week next year yeah just never know um um let's see here so I believe that's let's see I just want to if you want to just if you can drag that the zoom thing down um and and open up the application and just show them the architectural so that it just kind of go through the arbody wants to do that you want to go through it oh yeah we do so it's cool it's cool and that's not attackable time okay so here is the building as you can see this these are the three uh loading bays and two smaller garage bays and the attached residential dwelling jump to the floor plan just so I can point to so this is the first floor floor plan and I'll jump to the second one here's the second one so this portion here let me just move this this portion here is dedicated to uh you know the equipment room or watch room so that is the monitoring area okay and that's directly above the two smaller Bays on the first I believe which has the uh obviously the fire fire pole going down got a fire pole fire pole um and the fire's attached to the master bedroom yeah I I'll tell you you can take the man out of the fire dep P never take the fire apparently not all right I'm a family of firefighters I will in 35 years of it the whole so I'll I'll kind of quickly point out the uh the flaw with this architectural plan right off the bat uh the the door on the side or yeah yeah so these are shown as like a pedestrian entryway as well as like a garage Bay on the side here obviously this cannot happen just due to the fact that the grade over there is like much higher I was kind of wondering about that watch your step first one's a doozy yeah it was just something that you know it showed up and I was just like H it's small enough where I can talk about it I don't want to have him fix it until so they'll get strike they'll get struck yep and I did make sure to check with the architect that you know The Pedestrian access is not needed here per building code um most likely this door will get moved somewhere close to you know the center of the uh the actual Warehouse um is just second means of rest that's second second means of aggress isn't it for the yes yeah um I think I believe that's it for the architectural yeah I think we should turn it over to the board members now and let them so I'm going to seize the chair's privilege by opening so when I first understood the concept what I had in mind is the monitoring and Warehouse with a place for a caretaker that would accommodate for a late night shift and there'd be a place for them to rest um wow when I saw hot tub and a guest room and a fire pole this looks let's clarify this this isn't an occasional living place this looks like a full-time yearound living place would that be you Mr Joy or you live plant this is going to be your residence it's just me yep so how how help me understand how is this a commercial Enterprise with a caretaker's unit rather than home a house with a home business and I think there could be an issue now with the zoning to run a business in a residential Zone that's you know and say I looked at this and this is actually ideal and you know light industrial I checked into it and um said yeah you know CU I I downloaded all the you know the a bylaws and whatnot and looked at you know prob an ideal thing for me you know and uh and as as far as your power accom accommodation as well it's nice to have three phase in there because you you get heat and equipment and everything else we get an air compressor with a three-phase motor you can't have three-phase service in a residential dwelling or garage attached to that so you know perfectly you know an ideal situation for me and I love the the land I'm I'm a big fan of Wildlife and and uh nature and all that stuff it's beautiful you walk out there it's a beautiful Brook you know everything I saw so much wildlife in there that I haven't seen uh when I was a kid growing up in Ed know and it's just wonderful and uh my real estate agent told me say you know I guess a lot of people looked at this but because of the size of the property what they wanted to put in to make it feas feasible for them it wasn't going to work so she had told me that is what works for you may not work for someone else and this is an ideal situation um I want to be part of a community I I kind of know her very well my dad had a s pit over in Shirley back in the 70s you know and uh I used to get high school clothed at PN lagus there in the corner so you see so um no stranger here but and here is a nice a very nice community and the other thing is I do like trains I get plenty of trains around okay I have no doubt it's desirable that's that's not what I was what I'm getting at is May how I we can approve something with ambiguous an ambiguous to put a kindly zoning situation here I'm going to turn to my PL down planner to help help me understand how this is coer so um I spoke with uh Ken earlier he got me a call as well and I had a similar question about this so the question here is the caretakers unit is is is what your you're calling the residential portion that's falling under careful what you say residential portion in a commercial zone or the the the careful the unit in which where he is going to be the dwelling the the caretaker unit the dwelling unit there you go the the issue I think is what I'm getting is that this is much larger than what a caretaker's units would be okay um this is basically the way it's being the way it looks is it's basically a house attached to a giant Warehouse so I think what I going what I'll need to do is I'm going to have to talk to Charlie the Building Commissioner and just make have him look at it and give me a letter for the board because there was a discussion with between uh attorney Gibbons and and Charlie about this and on whether or not the caretaker unit would be allowed and based on the discussions that occurred and whatever I I wasn't I wasn't a part of it but in the end it Charlie did decide that okay based on the use and it does technically fall under a caretaker's unit um even though in may we had initially said no it does not um could we ask the commissioner to that letter to provide the legal reasoning behind his the findings behind his determination that's okay thank you yes and I so I will request the letter from the Building Commissioner to uh clarify as to how he came to it on the on his opinion on the caretaker unit and how it is and the fact that it is allowed and why yes I might be able to provide a little bit of context um so um I guess addressing the the size of the the ding unit itself uh first um you know the way that we understood it and we had spoken with Tom Gibbons um you know before his retirement um yeah he's retired now but you know probably um so you know we did speak to him a little bit about the the the verbiage inside the zoning itself it does say that under industrial use you are allowed to have an attached uh residential dwelling it doesn't actually specify whether that is an accessory or you know it just says residential dwelling oh do definitely says accessory non-residential accessory use right here what section that's what you referred to in your you have it right yeah so it's a non-residential accessory use 5.33 it's actually C5 which you have on the front page of your plan correct but you don't have it right in the application but it's right on the plan so yeah it's right here okay want me to read it would you trying to get to the okay non-residential accessory use is section 5.33 okay under the section that starts out as accessory uses I believe the whole section is accessory uses starts out with residential uses at the beginning mhm then it turns into this particular little section which is kind of so it's 5.3 is accessory uses there's a lot of accessory uses ahead of it then you get into 5.33 which is the nonresidential accessory uses go to C5 this is what you're looking at this is what was referred to in the in the application one dwelling unit per industrial establishment comma on the same lot as an incidental to a permitted industrial use occupied by the owner or an employee such as a watchman's or caretaker's quarters so I see there is no definition interestingly enough anywhere that I could find for a watchman's or caretaker's quarters that's correct but most of us would think of it as a small residence with a a bathroom and a kitchenette and you know couple of rooms of sleeping quarters and something that a person who would live offsite would stay there in a case of being an actual Watchman watching I think I might M remember I think Mission oration is more specific to the sizing what isuse is there a limit to um buiness he probably figured that out right yeah I think I think that was what we determined at the time uh my apologies I I mean you got it right it's right on the front Point um the the other contacts behind the um the conversation with Charlie uh back when we got the meeting in May was that Charlie had believed that the business itself is more of a commercial use rather than industrial use because the caretaker's unit is actually uh incidental to an industrial use MH um so the the clarification that he would he wanted was that he wanted to see how much of the business uh was generated from you know the the commercial portion rather than the warehousing portion and Paul actually had provided him with um basically a percentage of his income it was uh 8% on that mon there like 92% of warehousing and you all your equipment yeah that I send out on job is this business equipment or is this hobby you're like smoke protectors and pull stations and Horn stres and whatnot electrical wiring cables oh yeah you guys didn't buy BF alarms or somebody like that right fryan PL no I you must know them I I do know them yeah me it's a similar it's just an alarm service comp I know my father had been in the business right I guess yeah we know what imagine they have trucks they send on the road they do yeah we know what it is so I guess the the the question is like I I guess uh Al has said it's kind of the is there a uh a maximum square footage on a on an accessory dwelling unit I guess is the question right a minimum Jeff has requested I'd like to ask I'd like to ask so I think I understand you that was strugging and I think I come from I come at it from a different angle mhm okay and that is um this is the kind of business that actually is involved in 24/7 service and if a person's going to live at the business why can't they have comfort and since and it's also to it's seemingly new use of property here in town but I believe I drive by a building very similar to this it's already in a neighborhood uh on a regular on a regular basis and it just so happens that there's a fire engine parked in that building too that's a residential Zone it I'm not sure it's not resident I'm not sure I'd have to take a look but anyway I I think it's I think it's creative I think it's a creative use of a piece of land but honestly I don't think doesn't necessar not fit I don't disagree it's a creative use I think fact is mind completely creative however what I'm trying to where I'm trying to get to is definitely written yeah approval from CH some zoning you know issue figured out um because here's my concern we're definitely going to be putting a single family home in an industrial location there's no question about it even though the plan may call that a commercial building it's definitely not the whole building is not a commercial building by any means it's really a mixed use building that's what it is exactly two uses together do we want to take the kind of chance that this happens elsewhere in the light industrial Zone people just choose to put a residence next to a usage and say wait a minute they did it over there this guy's got a single family home it was 20 all the time why can't I do it over here I if I I I anticipate one answer careful now that we don't this I think it's totally us you're right you're right this is this is something new that I have never seen it is it is a very creative situation very creative um real good and it it based on the bylaw based on everything that I see I'm going to leave it up to Charlie and I'm going to request a letter from him with clarification yes clarification because I see both sides here I I understand where where uh you know Ken and Jonathan are coming I also see where uh you know the applicant is coming from I'd like to figure out I need do it we just have to do it exactly and I also don't and I I mean in the sense of I don't want to set a precedent that can kind of get out of hand so one way we canot let it get out of hand is that at least here there's a logical tie between residency and 24-hour monitoring there is 24-hour you do right hundreds of companies that monitor things 24 hours a day that have no residen thousand so there's no I'd like to hear from the Building Commissioner oh yeah and I think that would I think that would give us great guidance right and and I think also this may be an occasion in which conditions may be very uh may be necessary a you know some sort of a special condition that this this may be used as a caretaker unit when or you know for him to be able to live in as long as the commercial use or the industrial use is active and fully in use because I see an occasion in which what happens if that portion of the business he closes it down and now he's got just a a single Gar so this may this may be an issue an occasion in which conditions may be necessary right because what happens to resale what happens to resale one of the things that threw me off I made it easy I'm not sure which was the fact that the drawings call it a house plan you go to the company's website they develop the house plans there's nothing in there this is this a commcial building basically a nice house with a beautiful garage next to it my other concern is that I thought it might have to go to the board of appeals and let them decide but char obviously didn't think that no so the way it works is if if Charlie get a real variance for the lot you know get a real from the board of appeals so the way it works is Charlie makes a determination y you Charlie makes that determination if if it needs to go or not he felt it did not need to go because it met the bylaw okay under his what he felt typically what would happen is if someone opposed it and didn't agree with that they could anyway yes but I think we're well outside of the 30-day uh zoning uh haven't seen it yet haven't seen in writing haven't seen anything okay well we let we we'll leave this up but yes the typical process would be if the if the building um you know commissioner issued a letter that was not that someone did not find favorable they could um appeal it to the zoning board okay so uh Julie had her hand up for earlier just a quick hypothetical as we're throwing them though but the other flip of that argument is well what if the business continues and you move like can that be rented or like we don't have control over who lives there so I guess how does that fit into this well no there is there is within the bylaw it does I understand question the concept So within the bylaw it does actually say that it has to be the owner or um or the uh caret or the person who of the employee of the compan so that wording has meat as far as living in this household it has to be the owner or someone who works for the company okay and then we don't know what happens if the company is done that's so that's going to be that's something that I'm going to have to talk to Charlie about cuz that may need to be a special condition within this that says you know that success yeah you know for a long long time I don't know if we can I don't know if that's Le you know yeah there's a lot of new new things coming up here that I had not foreseen yeah so sure I've never even seen a situation in you know in my experience like this so I'm going to have to talk to Charlie okay Nathan um so I agree this is a great example of I think the process is the way it's supposed to work in talking to Charlie applicants come to him pretty much first and he he is the signpost and he tells you which way to go I I would be very disappointed on behalf of the the applicant if you got this far and there was a severe question about the viability of this Pro you know it's much has been is invested in this already um so I I'd like I think just a letter from Charlie is a thing to do what I'll say is is I'm I would be one of the reasons uh similar to Jeff's point i' I'd be in favor of this is you're adjacent to residential and isn't it great I mean I really like when residential blends to commercial Y and this is a is a great use and and a great connection to uh to the neighborhood without like a I mean heaven forbid it was a a storage facility uh so I'm I'm in favor Jeff did you have something um a couple little questions if you mind and I again we'll wait for the letter from the um so as commercial Fire Systems you have employees that work there I have one okay you know right now I small small buiness been doing this for a long time and no but but so so you do have employ do have tax Bas for the town so he's bringing employment he's bringing residents to the town I find this okay I find it a creative use that solves a problem anyway good yes Kathleen um I don't want to ride the ball the the question I would like answer I I don't know if we can answer this now at the table is just on this hypothetical I find it personally a little concerning to say that ownership or occupation of the dwelling is contingent on the business because what if he wants to retire and what like this is a question I would like question and that's the question that I what scares me the most is because they're hinging the argument that this is an industrial use which is why they get the residential portion so what happens if the industrial use is no longer active as an industrial use what happens to that dwelling unit he's still living there I know his business model rent it to some other business that's what happens see but no but is is that it no longer meets zoning I know it that's that's the that's the issue that's when I think when I think that when I think that it has to be an accessory to the other business yeah it does and and when you think that all the way out think about this 15 20 years down the road what happens to the it's no longer an accessory use now it's the primary use and now it's non-conforming correct right and I just want to clarify that the reason I'm asking this question is not because I'm in opposition of project I think it's great and I I really like it and I I I think that you have every right and should make that fabulous dwelling I just I want to yeah I you know it's not something I I was ever thinking about it's something that's neither nor foul this you don't know what it is exactly so it's something so far in the future that wait can we create something that will eventually or could eventually become non-conforming yeah I'll tell you yeah that's why the board of appeals gets well so I think what we so I'll talk to Charlie this is going to be a uh an important I'll talk to Charlie about him having an issu issuing us a letter from his opinion yes Nathan can can we move on to other topics absolutely um can I move go go ahead the the second you're going to go ahead no okay um just some quick ones uh I know um Mr Joy you were you and I attended the uh the aric be your neighbor um just can you show me them where the water connection is cuz as as residents in this Blom adjacent area both uh Mr Joy and I know that we can't have wells so there three monitoring well on site um this is the first one here this is the second one here and this is the third one here do you have a the town water connection he asking about water he's asking pable water pable water conne connection it comes off there it is okay thank you yeah y um just demonstrate that there's no well on site sorry miss your question because I did want to bring up the uh the monitoring law as well because it is an active item on site um that you know what's he I couldn't hear you li monitoring monitoring well those are from from the shley hill project I was on the same and my understanding the comments were they'll maintain raise the castings on them and maintain them so they can be used going to the future brings up a great question H did you guys investigate whether that lot what's the term AUM a a is that lot an a I don't believe it is but have you checked it I checked it yes you did check for him I did I did check the you check it yourself a lot there's there's a designation in Massachusetts say what's the term what's it action use limited yeah action use limited or activity use Li activity use limited I think it might be that could have spread out beyond the Shepley Hill plume it defects other pieces of land over there oh you're oh you're talking about the Arsenic about how I'm talking about the state overlays the these districts yep designation in air you know for them find it got it on my computer but I don't have it here it's got to be in the gis overlay and it's in very deep in the the findings but for instance the West Main Street uh project down there which had the video store that's one of them um so it just dawned to me when we were talking because it's adjacent directly adjacent that piece could stick out further than the lot line of the shefley hill so overlays I want him to know his protection for himself get okay that's the question I'm ask protection for him yes I I I did look in there I I brought that up was a big huge article online about that whole thing and I looked at that okay so you you good you and your lawyer are good I am aware of it okay but so the monitoring Wells are part of the inspections for the Shepley Hill yes and I was actually out there when uh one of the inspector was collecting sample and just just asking where he's from um D they do this fairly regularly so obviously give them an easement um to the monitoring Wells well to be honest with you I try to look up an easement whether there is an easement um it seems like they're going onite and is allowed um per Federal Regulations so they have possession at this point when we were out there for the shefley hill walk they were actually out there doing theor yeah they were doing monitor okay just I'm trying to give him some if he needs any help maybe not um sorry anybody else I'll continue um is there going to be a sign a business sign no okay um and I just noticed that any outdoor storage no and then the last is um the the parking lot intentionally has no curve right so that's so the water goes off Che flow yep okay be careful and we don't have any public on the zoom right as far as you can see Danny there are no participants no uh we did call out for uh landscape boulders as well as shrub along the edge here um you know which kind of leads me to um the the fire department's um comment about providing accommodation for a fir truck turn run um we purposely left this portion um kind of empty without parking space over it so that we can make a turn into this loading Bay I believe it's possible to take out these two shrubs and uh Boulder here so that you can have a fire truck you know back into it so the tire is right up to the edge of curb overhanging the the for Bay a little bit and then get out that way and if fire agrees they can do it that's fine right and and I so I think the only thing we'll want to just see we may I think we want to see some truck turnning templates yeah problem just so that you know we're we're okay and I think there the fire department just got a new new truck here a new ladder a new truck a new truck got delivered this week and I would just reach out to them and get the specs on it I don't know what the size is hopefully it's not the really really big one down the street we've waited 2 and a half years I don't know how big it is but I think it's pretty big so Lim if you can make that an action item check that out yeah in that case I also want to just add that you know the building is also uh sprinkler install we do because we can't make the turn around just out so when there's a fire the hot tub drains is that the idea and he left over and then you slide down the pole and run okay um go ahead oh wait wait Kathleen go let Kathleen and then Ken um the fire trucks that are going to be there um maybe you can give like a Touch of background of like are they going to be going out and like turning their alarms on no okay okay oh this TRS you to do collection yes they're all they're all the pieces so they're not can you just give like a brief summary of what the business does so you have the monitoring piece and then what are the trucks for just but the well the trucks for his personal collection really okay they're not cars okay got it but you did say that there's some Vans are com in in out the guys come in serviceman come in and pick stuff up yeah but they're they're coming in through with um passer Vehicles yeah it's not I just said a couple couple of things um kind of interesting but Nathan asked about the water and the fire department said the same thing so your plant should show a sprinkler service line to the building have a fire service main right I'd like to add one from the I believe there a 12in main that comes down Scully now it is relatively new and it's a piece of 4in cast iron that goes up it feeds the residences you know okay uh we did a hydrant flow test did the water department there plenty of water but I don't like the idea of the 4in cast and i' I'm willing to put it U at least a 6 in up scul and add a hydrant there there's nothing there that's my next question um okay that's all good excellent you are prepared to pay the cost of a linear foot for that that's a lot of money business pays for it all right um I'm well aware he's protecting his business by so I was going to try to save you some money here can tell me why I shouldn't do this the roof drain for my experience from construction projects that I've done is the roof drains are considered to be clean water and do not have to be infiltrated in a subsurface system like that they can be direct to the direct discharge the V the Basin and other stuff like that so I'm always used to the reverse you've got the reverse of what I'm used to the pant typically would go to the infiltration because of the oils and whatnot roof drain could go clear because it's considered to be clean water this particular roof is a metal roof the way I saw it that's really clean there not even any ashall single so why are we putting a roof drain system into the subur surface infiltration Chambers so the the infiltration chamber is actually uh provided to meet the um groundwater recharge requirement of the air stall water regulations uh for new construction can't leave too fast yeah well that's good yeah you have to hold it I know that can we do it in a detention system instead of an infiltration that's a lot of money the issue is I don't think they have a big enough footprint because of the the 100-year the the the Wetland buff all that also plays into this yeah unfortunately when it comes to infiltration Basin uh there's a lot of things you have to consider uh first and foremost you have to provide at least 10 ft for top of BM surrounding the whole thing so that eats up a lot of space already um you have to provide one foot of free board um from the top of BM to 100-year flood plane 100e storm so that eats up you know a foot and a quarter so it takes up a lot of uh it Lees up a lot of space for the the basing itself which is why we had to provide a Chambers okay so the could you label the pipe that leaves the roof drains around the building the sizing between the building and the infiltration station it's I presume it's going to be bigger than the rest which I think you call out it's 4 in um I believe this is is that all it is it's 4 in no no I believe this is called out a 6 in in the model itself um oh okay someplace yeah in the star waterart okay cool let me see maybe it's in the next page uh um just jump to there you are aware that your building is on a slab the entire thing that is no right there 6 in roof train 6 in roof train I know that but okay so it's 6 in all the way yep basically um I thought it might go to eight when you consolidate all that water or some other number cuz it's a 12 coming out the other side isn't it something like that yeah it's a 12 coming out over here but is also is a 6 in going in and is a 6 coming out thank you fortunately we do have a pretty good drain soil so it takes care of most of it so the whole thing's on a slab you know that all residents that's correct the whole thing yeah the plans will have to be modified for New England conditions so it doesn't show it doesn't show a lot of things we typically would have on a New England set of plant that's up to you and Charlie and whatnot just surprising we don't so there's no basement under the residential s and recommend a b the dwelling unit the dwelling unit the caretaker dwell talked we talked about the fire service we talked about so you know one way to get around the issue is I think you should combine the master bedroom and the monitoring room and that really integrates the use and the living want to you want a wall siiz T in your in your master bedroom in the third paragraph on the application on the proposed conditions um you you said that the U talked about the size of the the property after its gross area from the footprint of the property and whatnot then you said approximately 274 Square ft shall be allocated for an office space within the attached dwelling unit it's not right is it the office is out in the perimeter above the garage I think right but I think there's a door connecting them okay he says here this 274 shall be allocated for an office space within the attached drawing unit yeah I think they're using that as within the footprint of that I mean just based on how the plan's laid out so you saying the dwelling unit goes over the garage as well and it's bigger than our that's bik it's already over 3,000 square ft excuse me I don't know that's why I'm asking the other question is that just a mistake no no no so the the clarification for the 274 we're actually trying to allocate a certain office space inside the actual um residential portion um knowing that you know he might sorry accessory unit knowing knowing understanding that he might want a little office space inside the you know for the business itself um and you know we provided that as a mean to kind of do the the counting for the parking space as well um that's really the main reason for having it so that's not the watch no no no no it's within the so it's right the way you got it thank you that's it for me um I propose that we vote on the waiters I think should we wait on the letter we should wait on the letter from Charlie yeah I think we should wait on the letter from Charlie okay we don't want to get too if you don't if you don't mind Mr CH I think no I don't mind I just thought I like to move things where we can move things so I am well said well taken I think this has been you know I can start working on uh getting some a draft decision at least written up and ready and so that at the next meeting we can have Charlie's opinion and then we can discuss possible uh you know waivers and um conditions excellent um just yes um just because I I just want to make sure we don't gloss over it um do we want to go over the um you know the department review as well as comments response the comments yeah so um I'm I I haven't received any uh responses from any of the other departments um I'll I can get back to you on those if there's any other comments that come out of that okay um but um I don't know if the board wants to go through his responses I'm doing I let's do them all at once next meeting yeah I think that's fine okay unless Lim you had something urgent burning that you wanted to get okay I just wanted to check um good so we just need a continuation to the next meeting so the next meeting is good for you guys okay September 10th September 10th night September 10th um I just want to throw this out there because we do have a scheduled site walk with conservation on the 14th um I'm not sure if anybody would like to to join us do we have time to put a notice and everything September 14th for the 14th yeah that'll be um so it'll be after our September 10th meeting um but if you guys want to join in on and go see the site with them yet is that a third what's the date this Saturday Saturday we do ours on Saturday okay and what time is the walk going to be 8: a.m. perfect what is it the 14th I have a child I don't know I don't know if I'm going to be able to make that Saturday the 14th 14th at 8: a.m. I I I'll see what I can do can you like our Thursdays I love our Thursdays well it all depends on how I a bonus point for that one that was my genius yes yes you do okay um so prior to the sidewalk um we have survey scheduled to stake out building Corners as well as um edge of uh edge of BM for the basing itself so just to kind of show you guys the uh extent of the development Mr chair for yes there seems to be a certain amount of immediacy to getting information from Charlie what I didn't hear should there I'm I'm I'm starting to feel like there's a certain amount of immediacy in getting Charlie's input on this cuz a lot of activities happening yeah no I I should I'm going to have a discussion with him tomorrow he wasn't in when I wanted to talk to him uh today he had to go I'm not saying he was doing anything wrong I just I think that's yep yep I'm going to have a discussion with him tomorrow okay so uh he was at a dentist today so I'd like to make a motion to continue the public hearing for zero Scully Road map 33 parcel 3 to our next planning board meeting on September 10th seconded any further discussion hearing none Ken yes Julie yes Kathleen yes Nathan hi je yes chairman votes I thank you gentlemen and see you soon I'm going to call a 5 minute recess and we'll regroup uh just just after 725 one okay we're resuming resuming the meeting um we're going to start the project uh status update with a just a I just want to give you a few points that I learned today from a a webinar hosted by Judy Barrett of Barrett Consulting Group about the new uh the Adu accessory DW dwelling unit law I think that was August 4th um and believe it or not the second speaker was someone familiar to us Amy qule y so this was the most attended webinar they've ever done so there's a lot of interest in this and and and and I know these are rather random because the detail details are a little are complicated but they've posted stuff on their own side but I thought the highle points would interest you uh the first of all what this means is that uh adus are according to Massachusetts law are allowed anywhere where single family residence are zoned yeah and um that mean and and without special permit mhm mhm however this is everything gets complicated of course it does wait did you say everywhere in single family zones or residential zones single family residential res wherever wherever Z zone for single family residences then it's you can put one an ad you so anywhere that has that allows for single family home the reasoning that I'm I'm sure they're saying this is because there are single family residential zones and then there's multi family M then there's M team and then there's also twoes everything okay so put a single anywhere that you can put a single family now well one exists correct however this is interesting apparently when they were asked um uh regarding parking no more than one additional parking space for this Adu M but within a half mile of an NBTA District that we talk about you can't impose any parking for an Adu so that's interesting interesting the parking part the second thing is that a town may require site plan review there can be up to the town and say yes we want site plan review um they recommended wait a minute you can't never have more than one parking space no matter what you can only have one for the ATU then you said if you're within a certain District you can't imply any parking requirements right so you could have more than one no you cannot I heard that minim zero no minimum re yes that's what so um he's such a contrary there can be you a town can request a special permit if there's a request of more than one Adu per single family resident so you that you can't request qule advised in regarding the site plan review portion that maybe a modified site plan would be for which minor because obviously there's so many things you wouldn't have to deal with that Adu cuz you wouldn't be adding additional Etc stuff um excuse me one moment I'm just tring to say oh and then just another note like for instance things like septic we don't really have that big issue here but they were just saying that yeah you'd have to make sure the septic would sized enough to accommodate the and I I will tell you the most interesting part of the meeting this meeting devolved into as you can imagine 40 40 plus minutes of questions on minutia what if this what if that can we do this can we do that and finally Judy Barrett said hey everybody wait remember purpose of this is to enable more housing just keep that focus and that's not a so um that's it what this tells me is that um y adus are coming uh and that if we really want to dive into specifics we got to download more information I just wanted to give you the very high level just sense of where the Barrett group stands on this and where some of the real estate attorneys are thinking about this I I I'm confused whether the law is in place now or it's February February 2025 it's February yep that's when it kicks in it kicks in okay now that's what I have the only if I may the only question I had about that is since we already have an U on our books does it supersede it or does yes cuz now with state law so it supersedes all that work we did for nothing correct um interesting statistic to me listening to somebody to discuss um a proposed reuse of land in um the alustin neighborhood of Boston alon's building code is over 3,000 pages long guys we got to start thinking about making them shorter but go ahead that's it I turn turn it over to to Danny to talk about this project status um I'm just going to turn it over to Heather for her update on um sh Shaker M oh cool Sher restriction so they have submitted to the select board for Street acceptance oh for what street street accept acceptance so and that's when uh the town will end up taking over the subdivision Road and and care and do the uh you know maintenance and all that um so as far as the conservation um commission stands with the Shaker Mill Pond subdivision they need to still upset accept the conservation restriction um the commission held a site visit um not two Saturdays ago yeah um in regards to the Baseline report that was done for the the conservation restriction because there were four um violations already on that site um one being a shed that was built the corner of the shed was in the CR there's also a set of stairs that go down um there was questions on a shed and then there was a um a a fence on one side and a tree that was planted um so while we were on site we noticed two other violations um on the site so it's just a matter of questions on how the commission feels about accepting a conservation restriction with already violations on it addressing those violations um and ensuring that the the conservation restriction language has gone through the state and is complete but other than that everything seems to be within order at this point um I mean I have my my uh feelings about it but that's just on a modering standpoint of it um so I know I emailed um Jonathan in regards to the commission feels going for this one's dead and done so not dead this one's done so what they would like to see going forward is they they requested that we try to have a joint meeting with the Conservation Commission and the planning board to discuss conservation restrictions going forward um as the Conservation Commission we are seen as the person who's going to take the land whereas the planning board is the person who approves the project so there tends to be a almost laps in Communications and what's going on and what each board expects so they want to have a meeting just so we can have a a clear understanding of going forward when as we're proving um like Panther place is the next one that one's not set in stone yet but when we're going through for uh Stratton Hill for example that everyone's on the same page when we're approving this conservation we're approving the subdivision prior to everything going to conservation restriction because this is just our new normal now and um we need to get sure we everyone's on the same page and knows how we're going to improve these things going forward and and another project that we will be seeing this for is the um the fields project up oh yes by the uh on gr Harvard Road and I I I I think that that's a great idea hether I would add that part of the conversation should be how do we how do we communicate obligations to new homeowners correct who obviously don't know where to put the shed what what I mean there's we're seeing more and more of this so we really need something in place and I think this is where it's going to come into um better WR uh written um decisions conditions uh requirement of the uh applicant or who's ever selling the house to provide us with documentation that sellers receive this so there's there's way to address this um I've dealt with this on on other projects so I have ideas of of of how we can uh make sure that things are being done properly one of the problems that we had first of all so thank you very much that's great so in this particular case just to review the Conservation Commission has decided to take the land you're not farming it out to a third um no though the commission is going to take the land yeah so the town of be is taking the land yeah again restriction I don't I think they yes yes we're we're taking the land um sorry what land so because you said the street acceptance and now i'ms moving at the same time yeah there's two there's a multiple discussions kind of the street acceptance is the process to start this whole discussion the conservation restriction is one part of the discussion and the street acceptance is the main portion of the project it's like so they when he's done I'll the land is open space project and Kathleen what makes this one different is every single subdivision we assume has streets we only take the streets when they're complete as a town it's our way of holding the developers to be honest and get all the work done in this case it's also surrounded by land that's into conservation and perpetuity the street acceptance and the conservation restriction acceptance are very very different and will and travel two separate paths but it's part of this project how how a CR is handled is a conversation we can have another time cuz that can be fairly complex I has to do manual so U one of the things I remember from the presentation about CRS is that there's there's the holder of the CR and then there's the holder of the land so in this case are we holding the town holding both or so there's the gr and the grante te so the we hold the CR um which means we hold the the what's the language in that CR AO holds the land so we're holding the CR is how it works but because we're holding the CR technically I'm in we're the commission said myself is in charge of ensuring everything written in that that CR that conservation restriction is followed so Home Owners Association from our host the homeowners association in this case is the still the land has the uh what do you call it when it's the under the fee they they have the feed of the land they own the land still it's part of their open space for the homeowners association we which we have which the public has the right to go on to it's highly limited what they can do on it and it's enforced by it's enforced by people outside the homeowners association for a really good reason and and what's allowed on there is actually most of that is is state statute on there it's in yeah it's part of the whole what's important I think for Kathleen is that what we do a subdivision today all the subdivisions that we do require them to give us at least 50% of the land as open space this is just another step in that process how do you identify the open space they have to give us a drawing of it it's got to be all mocked out they have to approve it you know all this there's a lot to it and then state has to Pro and then when you get 25 or 35 or 50 or 100 owners on there hey huh we need a shed okay they just buy a shed and put it out there because they don't recognize or realize they have to watch them for boundaries yeah people don't typically do it intention they do it unintentionally more often than I think the language we had in the I'm pretty sure I'm not forgetting the language we had in the approval of the spe the conditions was the last Co was not supposed to be issued until we we had the conservation restriction done which un you said Co came out what happened things but that was the we had the right language is what I'm getting it I think so uh no maybe not are we setting up a joint a time for a joint meeting so that's the question that we have unfortunately my commission was off obviously invited to come this evening this evening um they majority of them are unavailable for the this weekend next week so I don't know when we are because and then I know your schedule as far as your meetings go get very busy um with Straton Hill and everything else so I don't know if it's availability to do in one of your meetings or not or if it's something we can do at a conservation meeting or an additional meeting that becomes too difficult I can always speak with them about having representatives for that so can I just ask a quick question do we want to specifically talk Shaker Mill Pond or is this a overall discussion this an overall discussion I think they will go back to sh mil Pond but they basically said you know as far as going through and trying to make changes on that one it may or may not be available at this time but there there will be discussions on that okay CU I I'm just trying to figure out timing cuz based on the applicant has submitted for um for Street accept so they will be going before the select board it's on September 4th yes we will then they will refer it to us which will most likely come September 10th um we have until September September 27th to accept the road so we could push it off to the 24th the or to to Mo recommend it to town meeting mhm does this conversation need to happen between them or is this something that could happen outside of that the my my only in regards to to Shaker mopon my only comment that I know that the commission has issues with with it is the amount of signage on that site for the CR too much or too little too little that's that's that's that's as far as going forward that's as far as that one's concerned that's that's their concern on that one because of the violations we saw on site so I think that's a conversation if you want me to have because I was the one who determined that correct and that and that's fine um and then I think going forward just because the amount of ones we have um I thought like oh maybe we could draft up some sort of CR regulations that we have so like going forward every one that gets approved we know we want x amount of signs they look like this fancing is this and something like that have that as a discussion and whether that's to being as a and I think they want to have as a joint meeting because these are joint decisions that get made for the osrd right you you have the conservation analysis it goes to the commission the commission may or may not be the person that holds the C there's a lot of steps that we're involved in that we think we should all be involved in a decision in regards to and I agree I just want to I'm just trying to make sure timing wise we get the meeting that needs to happen so maybe I can come to the and and and if you want me to come there and I can discuss with them and explain my reasoning behind why I said you know where to put the signs and then we can also schedule a meeting so that we're not all rushing to try to figure out when we can corre on what works best for everyone for a joint meeting to discuss CRS in general y That's so I can trust that you two can negotiate figure out the time yeah okay yeah and then I'll reach out to all the board members once she once she's had a chance to reach out to her board yeah I said I know my board I know they were busy this week so they couldn't be here tonight and I know majority of them is busy next week it's hence why Skully Road isn't having their site visit to the 14th that's the the time they could all go okay so all my hearings that continued for two meetings so um I know and then Labor Day is throwing a wrench and so we're getting short on time um on that but we would like to have that meeting just to get those things figured out because it's been one of these things where we even had curly Circle that the CR got approved but I never had a baseline done for it yeah and that street got accepted yeah so this this try to get these from happening going forward yeah and we do have the warrant articles have to be done by September 27th yes if we can't make it by the 27th for whatever reason it can go on the warrant in in the spring all right my we're trying our best to not delay them um and I expressed that to Mr several times I I don't see it being that but again I don't make the decision it's up to the planning board and the and the select board and then town meeting to accept the road or not the the Shaker Mill shouldn't have an issue I think we we should be fine on timing wise I think future CR stuff that's that's really the the the you know the meeting together a joint meeting and discussing what we want to see and maybe me and you need to get together and kind of have it sit down and like start initially writing some stuff down as to what we want yeah I think this was just it was a New Concept that came to the board and nobody quite understood the ramifications and the details that went into it and we're now just going oh okay now we need to to do this now and also the the I'm just going to leave it at there good we're good are we good yeah yeah all right thank you heather much appreciated any other uh projects to what do you got for us all right um so uh I gave you this update before but Stratton Hill we will be having a quick uh meeting with the applicant and their engineers and the DPW tomorrow at the DPW uh just to go through the peer review comments and um try to hash out a lot of those issues and uh figuring out um so that when we get to the board we're getting down to the important uh topics to discuss which are going to be you know recommendations from Green International for the board right okay good um they so I I've had a couple discussions with the uh fields and they're moving along in their process which is the 38 Gren Harvard Road which is the old hland property and old mily's way subdivision um they're in the process of um of working on uh getting some uh working on the conservation analysis getting that moveing along so that when they come to us you know this is going to be really the first project that's going to come to us since uh Heather and I have been you know we'll be here together working on a open space you know uh residential development so we'll be able to really make sure that that one is going to work as as as it should timing making sure everyone's uh timing of the CRS are done properly um notification of of uh the homeowners and all that stuff so that's going to be where I think the process of the narrowing down CRS and conservation analysis is going to be uh uh refined during that process um I'm trying to think um what about uh the the food company out by Kat spag what happened there Noya soya um I believe they had uh they had submitted to Charlie for uh Foundation permits um but I don't know if they they've been in to talk to Charlie the you know a couple times in the last couple of weeks so I know they're they're over there talking um 77 pitchburg Road recorded their decision and they should be probably submitted for a building permit to get that process going um I was just talking to uh lim Hut about 91 gr Harvard Road we have not heard from them they have not recorded the decision yet so they haven't been able to to set up preconstruction meetings um but he's reaching out to them and um but as of now it's kind of been silent over there um so I don't know time the one right I'm sorry under the transfer station like yes exactly yeah they have new signs up too oh my God like new businesses are there that's that doesn't matter right or does it okay that's what I was St paully clo Tex yes they have a clothing business St PA advertising that those were the trucks that were Truck those were the trucks that were working when we were there that day sign wait they have a a bright yellow sign of it's an oldfashioned FL sign but it's a textile yeah St paully textile remember when we were there there was people taking from one truck putting it into a bigger truck clothing and stuff it's it looks dis guessing but looks quite like trucks are going there dropping off some clothes into a bigger tractor Trail transp somewhere else it's a like a clothing pickup place of some sort that they've been using probably I don't know how long pre-existing what else is it preex I don't sign is new is new is the use pre I'm have to talk to Charlie I think it's a su it's a I think these people were subletting from the old owner yes but there are I'm just saying nothing that was brought to our I I know I know you'll get a chance to look into it okay so thank you for letting me know when you all walked around and I couldn't go for the walk with you because I broke the lake I watched them doing this I'm thinking to myself that's been there for a while um anyhow okay um it's been hiding in plain sight for years I had a meeting today with 22 furg Road uh Shop and Save oh they're looking to start the pad so they're hoping to get at least the foundation in uh before the winter to build what uh the pad site that goes up front in the front left of the that was going to be a donut shop yes they're going to build the pan without a building or they're going to build they're going to put the foundation in for the winter and then they'll you know they'll cover it and then in the spring they'll what he's talking about the next building just they don't have a ten yet it was going to be a donut show but appar did that come to us you guys so in November of 2022 you appr two years ago okay all right I was just okay good yeah you guys approved it okay um yes so we're out there so they'll be starting that hopefully soon trying to think if there was anything else that's that's all I had and we have the site visit Thursday tomorrow no Thursday today's Tuesday Thursday 8:00 8 or 8:30 8 8 8 so that brings us to uh's you name a s sidewalk for National Grid the National Grid site oh that's right so uh that leaves us with the fall town meeting update and proposed zoning amendments I just want to remind everyone that um this is an informational discussion only that we will of course have a formal public hearing as required for uh anything going to town meeting yes but the point of this is Danny to bring us up to date on what the working groups have been doing and where we stand all right this is uh excuse me Mr chair Danny will be doing this presentation tomorrow evening to a joint meeting of the um housing committee and the Housing Trust oh great yes uh so the working group has been uh working on uh an inclusionary housing bylaw um we there's also uh another bylaw that uh Ken Jonathan myself Alicia and Allan were working on for um the MBTA overlay District um and so those were the two bylaws that we're going to be are going to be going to the select board and then to planning board and then from there would go to town meeting um the there's two other zoning amendments that come out of those two bylaws the updated zoning map which comes for just show the MBTA overlay district and changing in definitions so those are the four zoning amendments that are going to fall town meeting uh so the inclusionary housing bylaw I gave you guys the um the bylaw last time at the last meeting uh so that you guys could kind of look and so just this is the presentation I'm going to be giving to the select board on September 4th um um so it kind of just goes through the main sections of the bylaw and where you know the the meats of the bylaw um we completely rewrote the bylaw so the old 10.3 is going to be completely stricken the new one is going to go in um so applicability and this is where these are the CH biggest changes so our old bylaw uh said that it was for uh multif family if you had five units or more the way this new bylaw is written it says any residential development or mixed use development in a single structure or multiple structures resulting in a net increase of five or more dwelling units on any parcel or contiguous Parcels comprising a proposed development site so what that basically means is any project that's going to be coming in with a net increase of five dwelling units even if it's on multiple Lots owned by in in the same ownership those will trigger the inclusionary housing bylaw so uh an example would be the uh on Shaker Road uh no on right on 2A yeah I was just thinking that the AO project that he did all those anrs there were like nine of them that that would Tri would have triggered this bylaw so um they would have had to provide one at least one affordable um and that'll hold up in accord to the law because they will argue Y and so this bylaw is actually has was approved and and is what MHP uses as a template for most of the towns that they go to speak B because of one thing I've learned from the gentleman at the end of the table is to anticipate what the response would be and that's that's the reason so we had a meeting with MHP I don't know if you were there but I think I thought you were there this is the the specific bylaw that she they they like to use and it's actually um I used it in Salsbury as well um Salsbury so what I did was I took Sals berries and then I kind of got rid of the Salsberry stuff and kind of cleaned it up with what we wanted and changes we made some changes also as well um another uh applicability so another trigger would be a finding special permit or variance from the zoning board of appeals or planning board uh that results a net increase of five or more dwelling units whether by new construction or by alteration expansion reconstruction or change of an existing existing residential or non-residential structure or space whether or not um whether on one or more contiguous Parcels comprising of a proposed development site so perfect example for this one would be the firehouse so if they had since it would be five units is what they proposed there this would have triggered so they would have had to provide us provide with one affordable unit um so it this one kind of is for like those uses where you're converting a commercial structure or some sort of structure into a residential structure that's multif family okay um and within our bylaw those are I believe zba so there's there's there's there's uh zoning board is in there for that reason um and then also have a question just a quick clear verification on the math so if you build five dwelling units you can have four at market value fifth is Affordable or you pay the the payment and lo okay it's not five + one no so if they came in with five one of those units would have to be uh an affordable unit if they chose not to do the affordable unit they could do the payment and loop which and and in that depending on so I'll show you on that one I'll get to that one I'll show you what the what the prices for the payment in L will be and 10 would be two and and so on so 10 so the way we we're looking at it is minimum 10% if you're depending on the development depending on what how many units you're proposing it's 10% of the propert of the of the project number and then you either round down or round up depending on where that number if it's 05 you round up if it's under 0.5 you round down so it gets a little confusing that going to be my question is in how so like under 10 units basically at 10 and under like it get it it I know it sounds like it's more than 10% but that's the minimum you have to provide at least one right or you're providing the payment in Loop and most of the time the way it would work is developers at that small of a development would just rather do the payment of um so and then any division of land including benom limit not limited to to divisions as a result of the mgl 41 section 81k to 81 GG which is subdivision and um also the 81p which is approval not required um and this one would be the same if with a net increase of five or more dwelling units okay so uh this is our requirement uh any development subject to this section at least 10% of the dwelling unit shall be affordable housing fractions of5 or more shall be rounded up to the next whole number fractions less than 10 uh 05 shall be rounded down to the next whole number um all right so affordable units and how they provide it uh so there's three ways to provide it oh this all got changed anyways um you can provide them on site and so here are the the the requirements for this so for Onsite construction of affordable units onsite of the project is preferred approach to create affordable housing and shall be required for any development that includes 20 or more units however on-site units uh affordable units shall not be required for any development that includes 19 or fewer dwelling units on-site affordable rentals units shall be required bonus units do not count towards this section um so basically what but what we were thinking is developers who are building under 20 units gives them the ability to pay the payment of loop to not have to provide the affordable unit and not have to go through the process of the affordable housing and and doing the deed Rider and uh the lottery and all that stuff so there is kind a little bit of a process that goes with affordable housing which could uh have you know for developers that don't have the experience usually don't they just would rather not do it so they'll do the payment in L um for instead of uh providing the units um for developers that have more than 20 units they're required because most developers that are providing that much more housing have more of an experience of dealing with affordable housing because of this is not the only town that has it it's a it's it's in it's in almost every town that I've ever dealt with and developed in one question oh did you have a question go yeah yeah sorry um from the conference we attended I vaguely remember something about the affordable units need not be like detectable from the other units is that going to be incorporated in this bylaw so that's that's in the language of the um through the um State like that's part of the affordable unit requirement and it's um it's part of the state law so that's like implicit yeah it is it's part of the state law there is you cannot there are requirements and guidelines within be comparable yeah there through through the state and like Mass housing well they're not yeah they Chang there's a guideline that tells you what you can and cannot do and making them look any different can yeah eoh e LC okay and so that's state law therefore it it doesn't have to be in yes correct yeah so that is imp like that cannot be that's not allowed okay um so so my question was the sentence it says onsite affordable rental unit shall be required cuz this would TR this so rental is the word there I see it yeah so because that's for like Apartments so if we were to do a uh DMG project versus a so if the entire project were a rental project that's what you're trying to say here correct yep and that's what we had talked about with Alicia that was Alicia's request I understand it y I'm just not sure the sentence makes it clear to everybody onsite affordable renting unit shall be required yes so you can't do the payment in Loop is what that says it's basically just says required what I'm trying to say maybe we need to make it a little clearer what yes that language is absolutely 100% means nothing yeah maybe you could propose something but let's let's let's roll through yeah okay got it well it's got a long way to go got a long way to go back and you guys by the way you guys done an amazing amount of work on this but yeah not get when people start looking at it you're going to find stuff like this okay um B the planning board and or zoning board as applicable May approve one or the both uh or both of the following methods alone or in combination and no event shall the total numbers of units provided through such methods be less than the number of affordable housing units required for 320 uh for section 10.34 and that's Mass law Section 320 no that's our that's our zoning bylaw y um a housing cont uh contribution payment to the air affordable housing trust determined in accordance with 10.37 for any development with at least five or more um five but not more than 19 dwelling units so that's the payment in L MH um and then offsite units so offsite units or comparable affordable units on another site in air offsite units need to be located in the same district as the development the approved location of the offsite affordable housing units shall be identified in the applicable uh applicable uh board's decision preservation of existing dwelling units for the affordable housing may be accomplished by purchasing de restrictions and providing funds for the Capital Improvements to create housing at equal or greater uh value as new construction units so basically what that says is developers in conjunction with the planning board and in discussion with Alicia and the affordable housing could work on a deal that would allow them to build them offsite um or you could do them offsite and payment in L there's a combination of that but it's uh basically you either provide them onsite or you're doing the payment in L and the offsite or just payment in L I like the word need not be located in the same district so they have a choice of anyway they want to put them in the town B but you there may not be available land in the that District I know we talked about it but I was I like okay I'm good with that thank you and we eventually come up with no more land we have to worry about that too we're coming up with land for you um does the offsite have to match the onsite explicitly so like if you build 5 2,000 square ft the offsite has to be the same thing uh so there's so that's actually a great question um would have to defer to Alicia she'll know better on that one okay she she she knows the process on that but I believe that's you still have to follow state law and has to it does I think still have to look similar to the units and but I don't I'm not 100% sure on that that's Alicia would know and actually that's a long conversation and why housing authorities don't want peace meal stuff because they can't control it it doesn't look the right false part yep that's a really good question you typically don't see this it's it's a very rare option that needs to get approved through the planning board also through the goes through the affordable housing committee like there's such a big process for that you don't typically see that because it's like Jeff said it's not something that is practice as opposed to see it in a bylaw correct yes practice if you're a builder doing work over here your cost of doing work over there just you site mobilization and all let me give you money so I can focus on my project yeah all right um next right okay so this is the payment of L um uh chart and I gave some examples for everyone to be able to look at it so market rate sale price so if you're choosing to do the payment and L instead of providing the affordable housing unit you're going to you're going to pay this contribution for the market rate units that you sell so if it's under $400,000 it's $10,000 no matter what per unit per unit yep for each market rate unit thank you uh if it's 41,000 to 600,000 it's 2.5% of the uh sale price for the market rate unit and here are some examples of what they would be so 500,000 would be 12,500 600,000 would be 15,000 so if now this is a step up here so from 600 1,000 to 800,000 it's 3% um 700,000 would be 21,000 800,000 would be 24,000 and then same with you know as we go higher it's 3.5% if over 800,000 and these are the contributions and so what this basically does is it does give an incentive for the developer to try to keep that number down and not you know go into the high uh 800,000 or even into if they want to stay under the 600,000 because the contribution is not as high so taking this through we have a current project coming back to us been around since 2004 roughly 30 units so I'm going to round this out and then the 800 or greater so we're looking at 30 * 315 say they're $100,000 units right so I can't do that in my head because it's too many zeros at 8:00 at night and so we get 30 times 31.5 rights to check for $945,000 they WR us to check for $945,000 okay we can do something with that we can buy a piece of land we can build something now but we can put a b in after the fact oh no no no I think he's just using it as an example I'm using this as an no no no I no no no no no I agree with you you we cannot I want to walk down I want to walk down the line the fields is going to be the project hold on I'm walk down the line okay they build us 30 units under $400,000 a piece we get $300,000 well if they do 30 they're going to have to build the onsite units it's over 20 they owe us the units no matter what over 20 yeah over 20 they they have to buy the affordable unit cuz we would rather have the affordable unit yeah I was going to say but if we're going to get money for it let's get some money that's going to buy us something right I think that that's going to be I think the way it's written is perfect because my question to you going to be at the end of this how do we negotiate with waivers or something so all of this is negotiable with the planning board is what I'm trying to get y so if your if your thesis is correct and someone goes in with 30 and then prefer not to build we can wave the requirement of over 20 that's what I'm trying to get but what I'm getting to is actually we stuck with it automatically we have any but what I'm getting when a real world situation comes up someone's going to come in and say I'd rather not do it I'm building over 20 can I just give you the but but I'm going to ask but you have to build them at that point the way it's written I know it is that's but but if we have everywhere in our zoning regulations pretty much gives the pl so you would get three three affordable units yeah I want them to do the payment in Li that's actually going to make a difference you got lost on my numbers I made a simple example okay but we live in a town where you can't acquire a piece of property for less than $500,000 y getting 50 Grand is a nice gesture no I think I I love it I want them to build me a unit I'm sorry to say yeah and that's why I think the requirement is hopefully com us again yeah let's do the sum represent just in regard to respect to the hour let's see if we can move yeah thank you I'm sorry no that's okay that's good um so the density bonus the planing board has the the ability to do density bonuses basically the way it works is for every one additional affordable unit you're providing that is not required so like if you're here's the example uh so if you have 10 housing units you have to provide one affordable unit if you give us two affordable units over that one you get six market rate for a total of 18 units and the bonus units are to offset cost for Developers for those affordable housing units cuz they do lose uh they do lose some money on those because the cost they everything is is the same excuse me they don't lose money no they but the costs are the same realize less money at the end of the process yes the costs are the same to build all the units but they sell the unit at a lesser price we don't know what that's going if the density bonuses are for them to make that up yeah cuz the price is set by the subsidizing agency yep correct which is 290 270 something th000 it's right around there Ela has the number okay so that's the density bonus right from that we have two um definitions uh the mass depart uh massachusett Department of Housing and Community Development that's being changed to Executive housing uh executive office of housing liable communities and then we're adding the addition we have putting in the addition of the air affordable housing Trust it's the definition that um Janet gave me so had that Jeff cuz we never had it we kept referring to it but we never had the definition of it so that is a another amendment it'll be its own section it's section two of the definitions yeah yeah um NBTA bylaw well who's on it but we don't have yeah we get a definition of a caretaker sh touching that section all right so me a multif family overlay District I'm I'm sure everyone knows about this one we've been you know kind of dealing with this for quite a while um basically uh this is to provide a zone that is within a mile radius but it it can be further than a mile but makes us comp it's within a mile makes us in compliant with the new MBTA communities act that was put in by um the the state um we are a a uh Transit uh an MBTA community so we have to have this enacted by uh the end of this year we have interm compliance uh I just had a discussion with mrpc yesterday they're going to be updating our compliance model because there's a new model that came out with but it we still are meeting we meet everything it's just some definitions some new uh mix use stuff so we're fine the they'll be updating the compliance model they updated the Zona map for me and we once we get this uh approved a town meeting we should be in uh we'll be in compliance and then I can apply for uh full compliance at the end of the before the before the end of the year Y and so I'm not going to get too into this because we can go at the next byog but everyone has an idea of what this is uh this is the Zone this is our subdistrict one downtown Park Street and then this is subdistrict 2 which is the West Air main uh the west main air Village uh so those are our two zones so never mind never mind yep those are the two residential zones that are yeah he's just overlaying them I understand what we're doing but I'm I the colors are hard for me to see matching below below above Pond is not residential that's what I'm saying no that's a Communications District this is uh light industrial yeah I I yeah it's light industry it's a non-residential district correct so this is our two zones so you'll have to add it down here too it is NBTA the Legend's going to be bigger than the map y it's right there cool um what what does this do we've already discussed we do we we know what this does um but this is to help for the select board so that they understand um and why and the compliance basically when we need to be in compliance what what community we are and why we need it we don't want to lose State funding and one of the things that might be helpful is being is being able to say in no uncertain terms our community receives grants in these amounts every year and if we're not in compliance it no in dollar the actual dollar amounts oh in 2023 we had this number in Grants in the last 10 years I don't even know if I have that varies we can get it we can get it so it's a quick conversation with Barbara yep so I have like cdbg Grant we receive we use it for to help seniors fix their houses on they have issues and many others so you know and the West Main Street grant that we got from Mass works for that whole rework so yeah you know those are some examples and we just re we just redid the Grant on snake on um Sandy Pond Road this all Grant based work guys so if people here you you mean we're going to lose millions of dollars every couple of years yeah mhm and maybe more and and we just have to make it compliant we don't have to build anything yeah we and we we that's that's the real reason the reason I say that is I can't speak on this issue at the time meeting yeah I know someone's going to have to yeah yep I'm ready for that and that's it Nathan wants to I'm sorry is is do we have time to give a Counterpoint Counterpoint the answer is yes but I I I would ask as a favor to all of us that yeah that try to and you and you remember when we actually open the public hearing on September 10th you'll have your you'll also be able to yeah I understand too we're not the last Stratton Hill there and it'll be a long meeting as well so I will um but I would like Le like my colleagues aware that um I'm I'm in favor longterm meaning next year of uh having inclusionary bylaw rewrite but um uh I'm not I'm not in favor of passing it right now and I think the reason is i' like to give a little background as Alicia pointed out last meeting she she mentioned that the middle class um is in Decline and uh that that we have a valuable resource in this town which is our small a affordable homes we we have a lot of small a affordable homes and I think um that is a benefit it's it's a resource like clean water um like um open space we discussed earlier so I think it's it's worth considering to delay the adoption of the um inclusionary zoning bylaw in favor of what I would propose is a broader bylaw um such that there is an affordability um that most residential developments I I'd be entertaining going below five uh would have an affordability component and we gave a clear choice to applicants to either have as this as the inclusion R does have the capital a shi subsize housing inventory or affordable housing trust contribution uh you choose between that or um a small a affordable development um The Challenge is that a small a is legally hard to Define um so well so legally I do we legally I don't have the ability to put that into law yeah because we are creating new law then yes and yes and I don't have we don't have the ability to do that under the inclusionary housing bylaw there is state law that gives us the precedent to do this whereas what you're asking for we don't don't have that state law to allow us to do that correct but somebody has to start I think uh and one organization that might help us is the ciens housing and Planning Association um in fact they are the ones from the 60s or 7s who put 40b into place so um I I think if we had more time in the working group we could invite somebody from uh Chapa um into discuss I I just like to make four claims one is um the uh well let me just H my my uh my bottom line of my claims which is for development of five or more units which is what we're talking about the um and as as Jeff I think was was um coming to conclusion is that the inter inclusion are zoning costs will they they are additional cost to the developer and how is a developer going to recover those costs right and um is it's it's my opinion that these are going to drive the the cost of the other 90% of the homes up from the 10% that they they have to build um and so you're going to continue to see high price homes what I just like to do is paint a picture of the U the uh the economic diversity that we have here in air uh I'll just start at Lea show this last week and you were helpful uh Kathleen in describing that these as you get to the larger bars I'll start with the blue bars this is from the US Census Data 222 and you'll see I split the bars a bit arbitrarily um the $400 to $500,000 uh housing units here in air there's 12217 and I've sort of split it 640 600 and change each to show potentially there's there's 600 homes that are under 400 their 600 homes are under $500,000 uh then as you go and then the federal government has has 500 to a million as just one lump so I've taken quite a liberty to uh show how that might distribute um 600,000 700 just just so that the chart has a little bit more of a sense of a distribution of housing in the town I'm making some assumptions that all I can say as a fact is that there are 549 uh as of 2022 uh housing units that are owner occupied under mortgage I should say that this this chart does not cover rental units towns in Massachusetts are about 1/3 2/3 so bump all these numbers up by about a third to get a sense of total housing in uh in our town is this assessed or sale price I don't know yeah um so so the and what median means is it's the half so there's there's 1,200 there's about 1 1300 houses that are under $5,000 in value um and this is 2022 so those numbers are probably up uh 6 8 10% the the next thing I like to point out is that the 80% Ami is uh is a state number that just just came just came out recently 80% Ami is um $130,000 for a family of four I'm just going to use a family of four in this example uh if a family of four at 80% Ami wants to purchase a house the rule is that they should only spend 30% of their income 30% gives them about $3 $200 a month to spend on their housing based on certain assumptions like 6% interest rate 10% down payment Etc you can vary those but I came up with a number of about $450,000 house is what you could afford if you're in the 80% now in air the red line off to the uh left is the actual median household income here in air this is published on the the town of air website at $102,000 so median income and air doesn't even meet the 80% Ami currently it's it's closer to 60% Ami U which means we have a lot of residents in this town that are considered as as um Alicia said last week low to um to very low uh and and therefore we need a lot of house house houses for them there are um since that's the median there are 1,847 households and household in air is 2.25 people per household uh that need need homes that are that should be somewhere in the in today's market in the mid $300,000 range to purchase and so I think there's a and and the thing is we have these homes in our town um and I think it's a it's a valuable asset and we we should continue to build them one thing um in the last one more data point on here to paint the pictures in the Last 5 Years 99 homes were built this the little green house uh um object there at the 600,000 99 there were 99 homes built in The Last 5 Years new home new home construction the average price of new home construction uh was $580,000 over the last 5 years I think it's higher than that it's um average average I don't think so I think it's higher than that it's um I can I can give you the source this is from redin um so it's a uh commercial Source the the uh and those houses are three-bedroom 2 and 1/2 bath and about almost just under 2,000 ft 1944 ft um what what I'm um I do have a concern that pursuing Shi exclusively and even even in your example Jeff the million a million dollars for on a 30 Home Project isn't going to build us three uh additional affordable homes um and so I I think that we should really consider uh a set of bylaws that allows for a developer to if it can be defined and that's the big gi uh to choose lower case a affordable homes uh in in lie of the sh or affordable housing trust so I just just a couple things so on that last note wait wait let's find out I Nathan did you finish oh I'm sorry I thought you did uh you so so with Shi there are some good good um outcomes from Shi uh you can look up the the Tidewater project in Salsbury and the YWCA in Salsbury Square um and uh L's doing uh acre Crossing um at uh 300 300 something, per unit for a Condo building with 32 condos you know there's there's really a need here's here's something that's really important is there's um with Shi um there's a lady uh through Chapa who did a report in a presentation in 20120 and and in her report one of the things that she identifies is that perpetuity is often not required of the deed so the deed restriction is typically 30 years on an Shi home which means that off units roll off every 30 years if you look at our numbers our numbers are down actually Salsbury numbers are down um and it's you know if if units are rolling off you're are chasing your tail trying to always get uh Shi in so one of the recommendations I would have in in a in a broader rewrite of the the bylaw is to um incentivize or require uh perpetuity um so that we aren't uh always trying trying to build into this pool um be interesting if that's a a wise idea um many many Shi um are segregated actually uh I don't know these are Shi but the um when you go down Westford Road there's there's units right by Shaws that are um part of Mr Molt's project over there but aren't on site right they are that is an example of off houses being offsite and they don't look like the homes that are on site um and I think that we should um at least I would value having homes where the um there is a a mix of um socioeconomic strata within within our neighbors um certainly something that that that I value uh the um so I think what would I recommend um if we if we did get an opportunity to continue to work work on the inclusionary zoning bylaw uh that would be um I think payment in Li should be an exception it should be a strong exception we we want the homes we want to have the homes built and I would say we want to have capital A or uh lowercase a um so so I'd rather see uh the cost structure being being pretty strong maybe maybe just a flat uh even a flat 3 and half% the um uh I would replace the fixed dollar amounts in the current write up I think the fixed dollar amounts will become dated uh pretty quickly especially in today's market and the um the density bonus it does say in the bylaw that uh in the in the proposed inclusion bylaw that we will um have guidelines written right which we we do for most of our bylaws um but in this case in contrast to the existing um inclusionary zoning bylaw it talks about dimension requirements right it says the board shall be able to uh manipulate dimensional requirements uh there's no language in the current uh bylaw that talks about the levers that the board has to offer these density the the density bonus um and further the density bonus it says you may offer it so there's the other um problem I see is that there isn't a deterministic uh outcome for the app and as you can see even tonight it's it's it's concerning when an applicant comes uh before the board and there's ambiguity about what their uh what the cost structure is going to be for their project um so I think that that that should be sharpened in in it so I recommend that um the uh you know the inclusion are zoning U working group continue to work on this it's something that I don't think is at a point where I would be in favor of um of voting for it and I I think um it's worth considering that as as we come up to the next meeting whether or not the board should uh support it thank you when is the public when you anticipate the public hearing at the SE meeting we've already put the it's on there right because we need that in order to make our or okay yeah so just a couple things um uh I I I know where Nathan is coming from on this um but uh the working group as as a whole has agreed that they feel that the bylaw as it's written is where they wanted to move forward with um do you remember what the vote was in the working group so I believe Nathan was the only desending person um also uh just a couple points that um on that Nathan had raised so prices uh market rate units are set by the market the developer does not set the set the market the mark the developer builds the unit and sells it at what the market is um so we can't control that we can't control what the market is we know that the market is going higher but that's not something that us as a town can control we can and that's what this bylaw is kind of to do is what it really is to do is to make sure that we're still providing even though it may be 10% we're still providing the affordable units because currently our byla does not work and I will say that has not been used in 8 years I feel that this bylaw the way is it as it is written should will make a big change um and the the properties that this would affect there's um there's only there's not a lot of land left in in air that that can be developed so this really only Triggers on you know those bigger Parcels West Main Street maybe something on on the downtown Park Street um the the the hudin property um you know stuff like that um the what what Nathan is asking about market rate affordable units like the 300 400 500,000 even that in those areas Charlie and I have stated that we feel that that market rate affordable little a should be dealt outside of this bylaw as a cottage bylaw more of a small home I know Charlie doesn't like that word but small cottage style 800t 900,000 ft I think that's where that bylaw should come from and where the market the affordable market rate units where it's the 300,000 the 400,000 square um costs legal We cannot put that in this bylaw cuz this is based on state law what is allowed I don't I also need to get this changed for the MBTA as well because of the the percentage we have within our bylaw so we need to change that as well um not that that's the you know hinging point but like there are I think that the way it is written now is is 10 times better than what we currently have and it it does I understand the argument that you know it it it doesn't do everything we want it to do but I can't write a byla that's not legally that has legal backing to do something that we hope we can do to get it kicked back by the AG um this is a byla that's been Pro been you know gone through by the Ag and approved before um the the T the affordable Port the market rate portion of creating that 300 400,000 portion is really in the cottage bylaw which Charlie and I have been talking about and jenet has been talking about as well and we were hoping to we want to get that for Springtown meeting so that's I think where that argument where we would a deal would deal with that um as for that issue I just say that I'm in favor of the cottage by law I just what I'm proposing is that we present them together because I think that what what we we're discussing in the working group is that the college bylaw would strike 10.3 or that you'd be able to override 10.3 if you if you have it so if that's the way it comes out then uh then I think we would get a good outcome uh I appreciate hearing the multiple sides of the argument I'm going to suggest that is there an argument or is there discussion whatever you want to call it I call argument I didn't mean it in the negative sense of it people making their arguments I'm actually intrigued by this I am I am too but I am fading and um and I recognize that we can continue this that we have more opportunity to discuss this that this isn't final and I would ask that can we close this for tonight get the vote on the meeting minutes and then we can pick this up is that fair yes so September 10th we'll be opening the public hearing on this thank you for sharing and and also Nathan would you be willing to share some of your documents put them uh with the board members please me doesn't have to share them with me okay and it it actually I I would I know you asked a question so affordable housing is a challenge we have and I just want to say this if we incent people to build houses that $148,000 a year we give up 24% of our taxable of our tax base on those properties okay that's all I'm going to say it's a big discussion it's a big discussion upon which our CPC funds rely and other things it's a big discussion yeah um thank you Nathan thank you Danny thank you Jeff thanks Nathan so we have uh the meeting minutes on August 13th I have a motion to approve so moved have a second I'll second any further discussion hearing none how do you vote Ken yes yes Kath Iain abstain and chair votes uh I and uh I motion to AJ I want to thank everyone thank you