hello and welcome to the Tuesday March 26th meeting of the air planning board um required by law to read the following this meeting hearing of the air planning board will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance and or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for inperson versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID number 833 6548 0732 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Danny Ruiz Town planner at d s at a.m. us or 978-772-4864 yes please Danny so the first one is 333 Street um this will be before us for a public hearing at the next meeting on April 9th um it's for site plan review and storm water um for storm water permit uh major one um that that project I see it's we had a land use meeting pretty straightforward project um there were some comments from DPW conservation and my myself um but that was really it so it's uh shouldn't be too too much of a of a project to get through maybe two meetings at most but should be pretty straightforward great are they coming in the next meeting yes okay good yep uh Noya Foods they're um also going to be here for the uh November I mean the April 9th um meeting uh it's a minor modification um it's not oh can you hear us Jeff Jeff oh oh oh oh great okay he's back Jeff can you hear us uhoh it's our microphone it's referring to when it's it's the it means I think the it says the connection to it use a different but we're Frozen so I think it's the internet well he's moving but we're Frozen got it okay okay so I think it's our internet and I can't get our message says we continue yeah I just continue can someone text him and let him know thank you um all right yes so Nya Foods they'll be coming in for a minor modification of their site plan M um they're going to be hopefully making their submission sometime this week uh since it's a minor modification it's just a public meeting not a public hearing okay um basically they're doing a reduction of around uh it's going to be down to about 70,000 ft as opposed to what it was before which was like 100 over 100,000 M they're reducing the uh amount of building that they're going to be expanding but they're not going to make any changes to anything else they're just reducing the size of the uh expansion keeping all the other improvements storm water parking lot everything else MH um may I ask question so if their storm water is oversized for in the context of modern minification when they if they should decide to come back to to expand and that expansion there's no broader than what was on their original plan would they have to go through the storm water process again no okay and that's why when we met with Charlie and uh with Heather uh when we had that meeting here we basically uh we we discussed that same question we said what are you doing for storm water are you going to change it because you may have to come back if if you change it again uh or if you expand past what you're making the modification on uh they said they're going to keep it built out for what they had proposed before but they're just going to reduce the size of the expansion on the building in case they want to come back years you know in a couple years to expand again okay great um so yes so that's a minor modification public meeting um and uh yeah so they making hopefully their submission this week Stratton Hill they so I reached out to uh attorney Collins and the um engineers at Dillon Roy they're still working through the plans um attorney Collins did say he was sick uh in February and so he kind of sometime had to kind of got uh lost in there so the whole February kind of was thrown out and they were still working on plans so when I followed up with him he saying uh they they're going to be continuing so they had continued to the April 9th meeting they they sent us a letter with an extension as well that they're going to be continuing from April 9th to the meeting in may we only have one meeting in May because of the election so we're meeting on May 28th I believe it is is and they and they've given you to the local elction yes correct and and you have the extension letter on file right yes I do where they extend it to you know they uh extended extended it to June 30th oh excellent but uh that'll be read into the record on on April 9th when you guys make ask you make the actual actually do it okay yeah um but it is up on the board on the extension showing that and we don't have to do it today because today is not the limit of the right corre we're still within the period and they're not on the agenda perfect um for review yes this is going to be this is a continued continuance of the definitive application yep correct so I just want to make that clear for y we are not we beyond the preliminary we're into the yes yes no this is the continuance of the definitive subdivision that they made submissions back in May when we opened the public Hearing in October yep long time ago yes yes okay I just think that's good to review that and so did you say based on this timeline public hearing reopens in October no no no no so let me the one that happened last Yeah so basically what happened was they made their submission in May of last year they didn't have a chance we didn't open the public hearing until October of last year MH that's when the public hearing started for the preliminary for the definitive for the definitive yes and so we've we had two meetings after that and then a redesign was proposed where uh the board felt they wanted the applicant to continue towards so that's kind of what the been the holdup has been they've been reworking on the redesign of the plans got it okay and so they're just Contin so at the last meeting they continued out till the April 9th meeting this time they're going to be at on the April 9th meeting they'll be continuing out to the May 28th meeting to make sure that we have enough time um they have an upper limit on continuing no so the way it works is if they request a continuance we we we're we have to allow them because it's at the applicant's request uh same with extensions on time on on when we have to act the applicant has to give those to to us and they've already they have given us it'll be to June 30th that we have to act before that got it okay that's very helpful um so that's Stratton Hill um I'm hoping we'll be able to get some plans you know by the end of April and be able to start doing the peer review on that so be excellent yes um I'll keep following up with with attorney Collins so that way by the time the meeting rolls around we'll have the comments departments exactly good um 42 part Street they will be uh so they're going to be starting construction we have a pre-construction meeting on April 1st out on site uh with uh some of the department heads um we'll review the erosion control make sure you know we have everything we need so I know that the the the uh decision was already recorded I have copies of that same with the special permit that they received from the zba um they uh the erosion control will be set up I believe this week um she said the last week of March so I believe it's this week that they'll be installing those erosion controls um they gave me uh she gave me an estimated construction schedule so we have that as well with dates that we can look at and that the DPW will be able to go out there and inspect when they need to um they've already started demolition on the building on the internal portion of the building they started that I believe a week ago um and yeah so that's where we are with that project you know they took the roof off right they blew the roof off I did not know that there's no roof there I the last I drove the last time I went by I I I didn't notice that the roof you got to look up it is gone okay for a week or so yes I know they had started the demo and that's when I cuz when we met about it we were talking hopeful that means they're going to raise the height of the SEC of the second floor to match the drawings they have to yeah I think that's why they must have uh taken it off yeah um yeah and and I know um Allan wanted to take pictures of the internal of the fireplace and see if that they could keep it or some uh you know retain the fireplace that's in there um okay thank you Danny any other projects that anyone wants an update on no everything is done on the uh Central a right the the four unit yes yes so remember kind of yeah we talked about this I think this was back when I started yeah okay um they that project was closed out by um must have been closed up by Charlie and everything so so based on my understanding was the previous planner did not raise any uh concerns about closing out the project okay and so Charlie closed it out there was no as built put uh submitted so that would have been something I would have raised um I think we would have requested an has buil yes and and it was not submitted so did a final walk around either I can remember correct we did one during the beginning at the construction phase and he was doing excavation and stuff but we never worked at the end yeah so we don't have an as built-on file we don't have any of that information Charlie doesn't either he he I mean he obviously will have the building Foundation file like uh as built but other than that that's we don't have anything on file and since it's closed out we can't require them to submit anything all right never say never so we know the guy right it's Al what's his name Alex yes right I think that's his name so next item on the agenda is the ctpc conference which was was two Saturdays ago at Holy Cross in Worcester and Ken Kathleen myself and Danny attended and that meant that each of us had a chance to participate three workshops uh each at that day and I thought it'd be nice to go around and share what it is we learned since I'm talking I'll just go first um one of the things that stood out for me was a session that sounded kind of humorous Laurel and Hardy go to planning school and it was led by people are very famili their planning Community uh Judy Barrett the consultant and uh what's Bonnie Sange is that Barbara Sange an attorney who's an expert in in uh in uh property law what they did was a kind of quiz on tough Planning and Zoning issues like for instance uh non-conforming prior structures and what can be done and I think the big takeaway was some of this stuff is so no one in the let me back up no one in the room got all the answers right which is really interesting and even at times Barbara and and Judy went back and forth there was ambiguity in somebody and somebody the answerers so the the point I want to get at is yeah this stuff is difficult and even for the experts it's difficult and I think that as going ahead as we're doing we do our best we get the expertise we can uh but in the end uh I think there's always that that backed up of good judgment um the other sessions were I went to where one was on climate resilience and what the state's doing that had a little bit less applicability for for us and then the final one I can't remember what I did I just it which one wasn't that the one we all went to permitting oh that's right deserving affordable yeah but you know what I'm going to let someone else who attended that talk about that one since we all went yeah I'll let I'll let someone else cover so we all went to the last one we all went to last one together us three went to the second one together and then me and Kathleen went to the first one together didn't realize we did everything yeah we did who wants to go who wants to go who wants to go next let Kathleen Kathleen would do you have any any any thoughts and you want to share from cptc um I really enjoyed it first of all I thought it was it was really great um I went to the site plan review one and then the second one was the MBTA communities one um which the the big takea away from the MBTA communities one um in my opinion was that learning cuz that one had um correct me if I'm wrong and it was both people from the state so the people that are evaluating the plans that town submit but also like Consultants that are helping certain towns through the process and so it was very interesting to hear from the people in the state because with the MBTA communities act there seems to be a lot of um kind of perceptions around what it is and what it isn't and is it a requirement to actually build houses it's not a requirement to build houses right it's about zoning and so that was really helpful to like very much even hear it from the folks at at the state level um and so even just watching the attendees the the questions that they asked and and that was very fascinating um and then the other most interesting thing about the affordable Housing Trust one the big takeaway for uh not the affordable housing trust one per se but the the topic was around uh specifically a community that had a trust but on the topic of affordable housing was that um the overarching takeaway was that towns need to monitor their affordable housing units because if you're not monitoring it right and and that that um home apartment would have you kind of slips out of the affordable purview it's very hard to then bring it back on to that exactly yeah the gentleman you're right smthing you can't bring it back yeah it is yeah and they did raise that um Habitat for Humanity yeah that was another one they that I checked on already yeah they said so there was they said that um they can't be um counted towards the the the their calculations of how many units of affordable but I think it's because you like you said was the lottery right so Habitat for Humanity does not run a lottery as required under the state's requirement to get onto the housing affordability what do they call it index what's what's what's what's it called the the list of yeah UL Habitat for Humanity but does an ex housing right but the exception is I went right to Alicia on Monday and it turns out that Alicia was the first in the state to require them to do the lottery in order to get the land yes for the two family out here so the units that we're putting up in the town of air I don't think the first one might not count the one on Shirley Street might have might not have been in the same system yeah but the last this the one onr behind the town hall we believe the ones if they go through the system so that they will be counted on the town of a yeah Shi what is it the Shi and and all affordable housing stands for all units are a good thing but something habitat units are expensive yeah so anyway that was really we were sitting there in the audience and saying wait a minute they they just told us the habitat units don't count and it was kind of a shock you know but a well-known fact I guess around the state everybody just knows that the habitat stuff they're small typically don't do it they're small a yeah so anyway Kathleen did you finish or did I'm sorry want to make sure you had a I think so I think the other thing that stuck out oh sorry I I contradict myself um the other thing that stuck out was when they were talking about affordable housing was that when when you're constructing it you the the units or the houses they cannot be next to one another on top of one another um and so there was a lot of nuance discussion about like how you maintain that when those units pass an ownership and the reasoning behind that is so that no one know specifically which unit is the affordable unit because uh you don't want it in the same spot on every floor uh there's always a uh a bias towards those those units then um and it's to uh avoid that yeah and speaking so I managed condominium complexes that had affordable units in them you have no idea how many people ask me that question day and day out week in week out we don't know we honestly I never knew the accounting department knew I could ask them but if I never knew the answer I couldn't answer the question but that's really what you need to do great yeah I'm done I'll go just a little bit further on on maybe I don't have to but the it was fascinating that towns have lost the affordable units because they couldn't find them in their files that's right couldn't yeah so filing in in maintaining the inventory and one of the Consultants there does it for towns you can hire a consultant who comes in and does your files and submits a report to the dchd whatever their name is now this whatever it is okay the housing group and yes they then maintain that inventory year in year out so they have a running record of the town's you know compliance M so towns make a mistake don't do that industry and uh you know you lose the units yeah cuz some towns don't have an Alicia like they don't have a person you know some towns it's and this one the nor was it Norwell or Norton I think it was Norwell Norwell yeah they theirs is run by the chair of the trust so he's he's a he's a volunteer and runs it and that's where he he they showed us cuz he was there speaking as part of as part of it and um the lady was uh I forget her name consultant uh the consultant she is the one who does it for them now wow yeah MH yeah um sweet ly Lyn sweet Len founder and principal of LDS Consulting Group which is fascinating so she has contracts with the state and she has contracts with towns or cities and towns maybe not cities but mostly I guess towns who have the issue they strag of it yeah and uh it's a problem yeah so it was pretty good anything you wanted to say about the other sessions you went to or you don't have to I'm just just wanted to know well I'll um I went to one I don't think anyone went to the one I went to vested rights in non-conforming uses and structures I was in that by myself I guess um that was the same again barara St Andre and uh moderator was Bruce use from Abington planning board so the drift of that discussion was that and we haven't run into this too often because we're a planning board it might be more apt to land with a zoning board first in fact some of these classes I want to make a comment that a lot of these classes were you could say 50/50 right yeah zoning wood stuff versus planning wood stuff kind of the same mix and they did have Representatives like Danny and other professionals from all over the state um anyway the line the short of of this one was is the trickiness of either existing uses or existing Lots right that were put in place before zoning so they have a a a complete category of vested rights that exist on those pre-existing either uses or Lots um there are situations all over town where we have this happen where people either have a a lot that's undersized a lot may not have the right front edge it could have you know a long driveway it could be any number of things on the land could be the use and then it could be the use as well so the use could be in a zone that now we Zone something different in you Knowle 91 gron Harvard Road which will be coming right exactly preexisting we can prer to as pre-existing non-conforming right to us it came to the to the pl to the zoning administrat zoning commissioner and he made the decision and being a curious person I learned that day that that decision was correct MH um and there's a fascinating I wrote it down my notes aren't right in front of me someplace but there's a there's a rule that they actually use this was I thought was pretty cool uh and we can look I can look it up or we can all look it up what is it test or some test yeah I remember you showing me the notes show it to me in my notes I don't have it but yeah there's a test that they use and it's basically a three-phase test that has to do with the use the age and I forget the third I brought the wrong booklet here so anyway it doesn't matter the the idea is that there's a particular way to approach it to come up with the right the right answer that's doesn't require any uh bending of the rules let's say a bending of of stretching the the interpretation so that's basically what we all want we want to be able to look at something clearly and say this is how we got there and that they talked a little bit about that and how to apply it and whatnot but um you know as you're sitting there in these classes you're thinking because this is a small town you know we can drive around and see a lot of stuff just by being around town you can almost visualize the situations that are W to come up you know sometime in the future are coming up all the time and and I the other thing I say just in general I think we talked about this out there is when you go to these conferences it's fascinating how many things that we work on or how many questions come up that they are addressing continuously at these conferences because they're common you know they're common themes so I I always like it it was very good so excellent thank you Danny any observations yes um you know I I actually attended all the same classes as Kathleen um but the the MBTA one was I think the most helpful for me um especially with us dealing with MBTA Community zoning uh the biggest thing that came out of that at least for on on my side is that special permits cannot be required within NBTA zoning so this involves the flood zone this involves overlay districts any overlay District uh land clear any kind of special permit that you need for land clearing anything like that for multif family within our NBTA zoning which for us would be the form base code special permits can't be required so so the way this opens up a new question as to B uh what what they were saying was that most towns are having to address this through their site plan review by referencing those the special permit criteria for you know the flood the flood zone or any of those other special permits if you want those to be within the site plan review for those for the MBTA zoning you have to reference it in your site plan review so for us as as a board we have to look at now um how do we address that with our site plan review CU our site plan review we don't reference those other those other uh requirements from the other sections of our bylaw so uh it's something that I've I've raised and that we're going to start uh trying to have a meeting and and kind of figure out what where Town Council thinks but I think some of the options that we have are one we can add some of those uh those regulations within site plan review and just make it a reference of if it's an MBTA zoning uh you know so if it's multif family within the form based code these these you know these special permits that would typically be required um would are not required but they have to meet those standards I'm missing yeah it's not an actual so you would and this is where it gets confusing so you won't get a special permit for it but it's you would make it a re requirement as part of part of the fin so the question so I asked the economic question special permits often cost more money mhm to apply for a special permit there's often there's often more more more Hoops to jump through or more hurdles to get over and I'm curious if it's the economic impact of a special permit so I don't think I don't think it's the economic impact because the economic impact I mean special permits most towns aren't very expensive in the sense of the special permit appli and the most of the information that you need for a special permit is already usually required under site plan review for the most part um it's it's the um bureaucracy exactly it's it's the four fifth vote it's the discretionary portion of it it's that portion of a special permit so it's it's to take out the discretionary P portion it's so that multifam is a little bit of a it streamlined see see what's interesting is I would argue that most of the people around this table want multis or are multif family favor favorable to a certain extent so the four fifs may not be as much of a challenge here correct but seeing what's going on in other communities that maybe get it yeah but there but there are some things that go with special perence flood plane and other stuff and so really important that's the one that actually came up specific what happens if we find no worries don't worry don't even think about the flood plane build it there's could be a problem and so actually that's the specific one they referenced because they're still working with FEMA to figure out try to figure that one out figure that one out because FEMA's that that will change the flood planes changed once since in the last 10 years here in town and and so this kind of opened up a whole new thing of of now it's it's I have to run this by Town Council and I I had never heard that before so I'm hoping this was something new that came up and not something that should have already been addressed prior to the application being us getting interum um approval I don't know what happened if it was after that that it changed so I you know I got to work with Town Council to see what our best option is you know and just just kind of running through the options like one we could do add those requirements with Insight plan review which is and just make a reference that only for multif family housing is this a tra this is a requirement and then or you can do a whole different site plan review just for those those multif family applications can I it gets quite it's AAR it's exactly and what excuse me if I can inter what would then be the deadline to making those alterations in to meet the compliance by the end of the year by the end of this year okay so we would have to do all these changes have that ready for a fall town meeting so this is the thing so um because site plan review our regulations are are through the planning board their rules and regulations it's a public hearing we can do a public hearing and just yes so that part's noted it's there's no town meeting vote that we need to meet okay good it's but it's kind of planning all that out making sure we've addressed everything that you know that falls into there of you know some sort of special permit it's like how we'd have to we really have to go through all of the bylaw and see where sections we require special permits some of those special permits triggers that we don't normally see parking yeah parking well that's all about parking downtown exactly that's a special permit they talk about that interesting I want to follow up a little bit on this yeah they this pretty much was run by people from the state who were in many cases reluctant to answer the question correct okay you would agree with that yes very bunch of Consultants they indic they they mentioned at that meeting how much the state has spent in technical assistance 6 million 6.8 million has been spent so far yeah to implement these changes okay because most towns don't a planning board that's as efficient maybe as this one they are really in trouble they can't figure it out they have to hire they got to hire somebody the whole thing is crazy other towns also have newspapers and other things that we no longer have here yeah which probably Smooths the water's a little bit I'm going to ask a quick question um this is turned up on the moderators um uh moderator has a back Channel called the gaval line and they're referring to it as hvc or hcv okay then MBTA zoning do you know what that the initial stand for did anybody call it something else no okay I've only ever heard it as the NBTA so have I but it's just it just showed up 3A 3A wasn't it yeah section 3A well but no they're using but other towns are using um an acronym and I think it's a local Town zoning acronym I'll find out about that because it's it it's really gaining speed hvc or I I it honestly just started coming through I could probably I can't look it up cuz this phone's not working there but it's really it's a it's really interesting I mean West Westford canceled their town meeting last week they had set it up for 1,200 people they got 1,600 showing up wow they have two issues on it an override for schools and the MB zoning this is something that every town that is a a football stadium size town meeting wow everyone who's an MBTA community and adjacent they're freak freaked out yes yes fre most towns and and they said this at this meeting they said most towns have to rewrite most of their zoning yeah they got to do a big big picture change big picture change and so we're actually very lucky we're fortunate we're very fortunate because and they were saying that you know there is bunch of Grants out there they're just handing them out but if you're eaten up but if you're if you're a community that has to be in this year it's way too late they said there there's no way you're getting it yeah one of the fascinating things about the um concept of the MBTA communities remember it's supposed to be relatively close to the transportation center yeah their concern one of their concerns about the site plan and other land use so the first thing that I've got my notes Here you must understand the underlying land use and what the land is they don't want putting in a swamp yeah they don't want they don't want this counting over here or this counting over there so you can't Zone over a swamp agreed and say okay we've got the zoning done so there's there's things that have I'll guarantee you 50 to 100 things have come up after they wrote this thing of course that they weren't unanticipated consequences that came I need to I want to give the floor to Nathan he um you mentioned the intent to not have special permits in the MBTA community is to streamline yes our towns and is our town required to then write those regulations granted that there may be some that are very uh um important to have but are we required to write that back in to regulations to effectively create some of those hurdles that an application would have that it sounds like the intent is to clear those away yeah so it's it's it's to really get rid of that discretionary portion of it so when we rewrite if we were to rewrite our site plan review regulations and we want to make sure that the flood plane the all those other special permits that we have within our bylaw if we want to make sure that those are included for MBTA Community you know for multif family is really what it is what they're talking about multif family applications then we have to one rewrite it into our site plan review rules and regulations as a requirement that they need to submit this information but the actual permit is not a requirement right if you if you you get the it's it's the semantics of it it's like the actual permit is not required but the underlying issues would the town be undoing the intent of the law no so they use that as a as an example they they actually used that in um the lady who was behind us [Music] from there she's in a Kathy Katie the the one no no no not Katie Lacy the one that was be um that was sitting behind us and she was from uh one of those towns that has no sewer remember she raised that question towns in that's right so towns in an example about how they're rewriting their whole bylaw and just making one and like One S plan review with all everything being referenced in it for this occasion and she the actually the lady from the state was like yeah that actually works or you can do make a reference within your your your site plan review of those requirements that are over here so that you don't have to rewrite everything so it's kind of mainly just to get rid of that 4 V understand but you know as Kathleen brought up when we started the this is this is not building homes but it is to encourage Building Homes yes and are we considering ways to discourage Building Homes no I think I think what what most developers are afraid of is not throwing money at you know and pardon the way I say it is you know throwing money at an application and just saying all right whatever it is what it is cuz in the end they're going to get you know way more once they sell it once they build it and all that it's the four fifth vote usually is what is so cumbersome because on a on a planning board like ours you could get a you know a a unanimous vote but M you go to another town it's not as frequent as it is here correct and and that was actually one of those the things you know some of the board members that were actually there were voicing a lot of that yeah where like not saying their boards aren't as you know as uh they just vote no yeah yeah not as yeah yeah they're not as uh they don't have the same view of the future that people on this board might have correct speaking for myself only yes yes yes that's fasc think that that's I'm glad you mentioned that four fifth vote because so easy to forget that you know the the special permits require four fifths regular approvals are usually the majority yeah the super vote majority um so I would ask I would ask just put it back on the table I know we've been discussing this both in a both in a working group and we've discussed how we're going to handle the MBTA zoning between now and the end of the year I still am open-minded to the change in the inclusionary for the area that covers the MBTA zoning not for the whole town if in change in writing our bylaws that makes it easy that makes it less it it gets us to the goal line faster oh yes yes yeah we've actually for the fall right here's the issue our inclusion zon has got us in trouble at the 20% we need to go to 10% and there's a there's a real discussion around whole toown or just the NBTA area we're not actually creating an overlay we might be but I don't think so we're not by doing it that way I'm not a big fan of overlays in any way shape or form so you know but I would like to keep that in the Forefront as we discuss it yes and that's actually something we were actually discussing at at this conference that came out of that okay so Danny to to kind of sum this up what are the next steps ahead for us to meet the MBTA requirements I know we exchange some emails you can bring everyone up to date just like what are we going to do yes so right now you know once once we're through this town meeting uh I'm going to start working on rewriting the inclusionary bylaw okay uh working on that that shouldn't take me to I mean we have most of a template uh you know the working group will will meet about it and kind of go through that as well um so working on that getting that Rewritten if if for some chance we can't get that ready for fall town meeting the alter you know the alternate option is to just make an you know a change within the inclusionary bylaw of 10% for MBT for okay MBTA zoning which is the form based code you know so it would be a reference to 10% within those two zones I'm just we rely we are a well-run town financially we rely and receive a fair number of Grants from the colol of Massachusetts and I think it would put us in a pinch if we end up in a situation like other towns now with Commonwealth is not granting the money mhm oh I I they're dead serious about this and and so I fully think I will be able to get that written I I mean I that's not a I've written bylaws before I mean in way shorter time okay so it's it's not something that I think is going to be too much of of a burden and then on and then the next step after that as well is figuring out the review on the the special permit requirement which is you know something that I've reached out to Carly and and Robert and trying to set up a meeting with you too has another town done that yet has what did they speak of any Towns at the who were successful in doing that there's only three only three that are done in the state right now yeah there's uh Allington Allington Lexington and yeah anding or something in north of three a compant right now yeah there's only like three of them right now there's there's 20 that have pre-approval which I don't know why our name wasn't up there and that it bothered me was Fitchburg on that list of the pre-approvals I don't know I because we're we no and the reason is we're in in the mrpc conversations we're right there with we're we're always grouped with Fitchburg yeah I don't know off the top of my head I wasn't looking for Fitchburg but there was a list of 20 names of town names and we were not one of them so it kind of worried me a little okay so um but yes um um that's the only that's the other hurdle that we got to get through other than that I don't see any other hurdles but who knows you know something may come up because very strange when you go to these things these nvta zoning you have something done all of a sudden we thought we had it done the first couple weeks after we got long time and and we did inclusionary zon is the inclusionary zoning didn't come up here it came up in Lexington yeah exactly and that's because of the when they did the they were showing uh the they had these models of like cost benefit analysis of like I've read that whole thing it's this the model was it's it's it does some crazy stuff it's um the guy the way he was explaining it was just it's a lot of information like these models like they look at the property what it could be sold at what's the full potential of buildout it it it got they put one up on the power point yeah so that's kind of where we are with the MBTA zoning okay great can I you um just for my own understanding the December 31st deadline yes is to be in compliance correct not to submit documents to the state yeah no no no so uh and so we have to have submitted and been approved by that date is there any communication between the state and you as a town planner cuz I got the impression that they have a backlog that is ever increasing yeah so um there's a backlog right now of pre-approval which we already have so we're we're all set with that the only thing we need to do right now is well now that was my initial thought was we only have to do this so now what we need to do is the site plan review and figuring out the special permits the inclusionary housing and then once we've got that settled we just submit we we fill out the the application and we submit so they haven't given you all like a date of like oh you probably have to get things in by the first in order to they have not they have not given us an actual date of when things need to be so here's the challenge it's going to get spill delayed the Commonwealth has to pay attention to our town meeting schedule correct many many towns have two Town meetings in the year so I think that's part of it and if towns don't have two Town meetings um Lincoln doesn't Lincoln has a state of the town in the second part of the Year mhm which can be used as a town meeting if needed so it's kind of town dependent yeah our second town meeting is almost always Halloween week so it's in October that should hopefully be enough time should it pass town meeting to go yes because remember there is that 90day weight period of the AG and all that stuff and they're I think they're accounting I know it's it's once legal notice I'm going to get to that in a minute but they still have to go through the process of the approval because if they deny it they can kick it back and then it's out of right but yes um I think what our plans would be is to once it gets approved at and you know hopefully we get the inclusion area completed and the site plan review and then it's straight away as soon as we can submitting the application okay so there's no reason to believe that that timeline isn't a long enough Runway I guess it might not for us for us no okay for towns it it they may still need way more time and that's kind of the what I think Ken was was going to say about was he thinks it's going to be extended is that what you think cuz common sense that's how I think just thinking Common Sense after what I heard the other last week I mean think about this there's only 20 towns with preapproval there's only three towns out of 176 and there's only three towns that have this year that are impacted this year that are impacted this year yeah so next year is for towns that are adjacent to those so it may end up being where you know some towns just don't make that that deadline and they extend it out 6 months a year and then push the next one out a year two I I think they're going to be playing it by year I think they're keeping it at this date now to try to get as many people on on that timeline as they can MH and I think in the end it may just be Contin it it may be extended because there are towns that are fighting this right okay yeah I mean this is pretty much the government telling people what to do at the local level it's really the reverse of what we think might be best all right so I want to go if if we can I go back to one thing on the yeah but I you can I'm but I I know I would like to bring it you know for move the agenda along please because we we didn't schedule the NBTA as part of the agenda it ended up being an ancillary cons was it was under the no I got it DPC conference thing DPC oh okay oh Dan yeah so did you want to make one comment before he goes in this presentation just quickly going back to the pre-existing stuff that I you know took the class on uh vested rights and nonconforming so I now I found my notes the thing that they emphasized on this was more more than other is the research that has to be done at the registry for an old mhm cuz often times a use can change more than once it's the original old use that is the one that counts even if you change that use subsequently and you want to go back to the old one you know you have you have to be very careful and that's why a lawyer has to do the research of someone so it these things can be tricky you know someone took a store and they turned it into a something else a gas station and then the gas station became something else so to not how to protect you have to go way back in history which I thought was pretty pretty hard to do but the the thing I want to bring up is the first thing in this I want to write down one this is not me writing these notes this is what I heard at the meeting when we submit in real time like we have done zoning changes zoning changes have a different protection under the law section five right 48 section five which I gave Danny a full-blown copy of but more for me than him and the the law basically says that on the notice of the first public notice and that could be a newspaper notice could be a posting on this thing it could be the town clerk the first public notice of A change is the effective date of the zoning change so in essence right now our zoning is in the new phase we have already passed we haven't hasn't even gone to town meeting but at the moment the changes in Zing that we proposed are in effect okay M and this has been the law forever mhm it's a so at this point in time it's an at risk situation is what it how you describe it yes so if someone were to come in today and want a two a family house on a 24,000 ft lot they can go right to the billing inspector and pull a permit at risk yeah the risk is that it'll get either denied at the town meeting or it'll get denied at the attorney generals but the zoning change is in effect and that's been the way it has for everything that we've done we've just never really pushed it yeah so people the trick question is when does the zoning change go into effect you know some people say the town meaning some people say when the Attorney General but zoning is different than other bylaw changes that's the point zoning changes have this special exception correct so that's something we should study a little further um and make sure we have the answer to that's all but it was brought up sure makes us a powerful group don't it it does yeah thank you Ken special permits yes special permits um all right so this is this is the same special permits presentation I gave to the zba I'm just going to be giving this one to you guys as well all right you're going to speak faster though here huh yes yes I'll get through this um all right what is a special permit a special permit authorizes land uses that are allowed by ordinance the applicable zoning districts these uses are between by right and not allowed these are uh uses that are allowed within the zoning District but require additional review to ensure that it's not it will not adversely impact the surrounding areas uh the special permit can also be referred to as conditional use permits um they uh they allow the municipality to to do some additional review on those uses and be able to um put conditions on those to make sure that the surrounding areas aren't aren't adversely affected um and then uh so special permits are approvals that are given to use uh to uses that meet certain standards or conditions which are listed in the local zoning ordinance the conditions are often designed to ensure that the use will not adversely impact uh not adversely affect nearby uh uses uh special permits are commonly employed to protect residential neighborhoods against potential disruptive uses uses which might generate substantial amounts of noise odor or traffic or which might use uh some other way to be incapable incompatible with the neighborhood for these reason you usually see for gas stations and convenience stores within neighborhoods um so that's why like within when you see our bylaw those are typ typically criterias within our special per you know within most people's special permit criterias but we reference those in [Music] ours uh so this is just the first section of of the Master General law section 9 because it goes into so much more and so many different ones but this is the basic definition of what a special permit is so uh zoning ordinances or BW shall provide for specific types of uses which shall only be permitted in specific districts upon the issuance of a special permit special permits may be issued only for uses which are in harmony with general purpose and intent of the ordinance or bylaw and shall be subject to General or specific Provisions set forth therein and such permits may also impose conditions safeguards and limitations on use on time or use so it's kind of just to special permits are those uh in between the it's the gray area it's those uses that are um you could be a gas station but you have to be closed by 6:00 p.m. correct only 7: a.m. to 6:00 p.m. it seems to me special permits are a way that the town can get some more discretionary judge in the process for these gray area yes exactly it's it's you know typically like like the example of a gas station you if you if that's within a residential neighborhood you would set you know usually times uh when they have to close by shut off the lights um a convenience store you can't be up you know you can't be open past 10 you can't it's it's to really make sure that you're not going to adversely impact the neighborhood you're around um you know cuz you have traffic for those uses especially for a gas station you're going to have more traffic than you typically would if it was a residential use so special permits are just ways to make sure that the use is the use is going to be okay in that area and if there is a need for conditions you can set those conditions to uh basically neg you know negate those negative impacts you know it it at least it's not a it's not a positive but it's not a negative so I'm just curious you want to do a use a special permit allowed use and um that is where the zoning board of appeals would listen to the neighbors who are bringing their concerns to the board and hopefully that would help craft the conditions correct yeah that's a so in a situation where neighbors Don't Bring It Forward you're kind they're kind of on their own yes okay yeah so if if you know you're viewing a special permit and some of the neighbors are uh you know think that the due to the uh the business say it's a convenience store I don't want it open past 10 I you know we want to be able to go to sleep and which is a valid reason you know lights and all that stuff traffic people coming in and out you hear that you you see that so what you can do is condition it so that it it closes at a relatively normal time so that the neighbors aren't impacted so this really puts the zon this puts the zoning if this is under zba it kind of puts them at risk because if nobody shows up to complain about it upon what do they stand to but there but there are spe each permit special permit though has special right yeah and actually but I don't want to I don't want to stop you from along the way I'm actually I'm actually our so this is our specific language in our bylaw and and this is the key ke note that you have to make special permits shall be granted by the special permit granting Authority only upon written determination that the adverse effects of the proposed use will not outweigh its beneficial impacts to the town or their neighborhood in the view of particular characteristics on the site and of The Proposal in relation to the site in addition to any specific factors that may be set forth elsewhere in the bylaw the determination shall include the consideration of each of these following social economic and Community needs which are served by the proposal so basically what just to preface how each board because planning board also has special permits each board should look at this is It's a basically a checklist it's one does this either is it is it does the is it a positive or is it a negative and you go through each of these criterias if it's a positive that's a yes yes you know you you guys feel that it is it's a positive so that checks the box if it's a negative that's where you take the next step and say okay so what is the negative here can this be conditioned to get rid of that negative if it can't be conditioned to get rid of this negative effect well then that's a no and so you just do this one by one and you go through all six and so the key point on this is is because the way our bylaw is written it says shall be granted by the special permit granting Authority you know it's based on how many of those so if you have four out of the six that are in the positive and say you have two that are in the negative that permit should be granted because the benefit the benefits of it outweigh the negative impacts and so that's how you have to look at these and and you can't and it's not that each of these have the same amount of weight and that's how I'll I'll put it each of these criterias have the same amount of weight and you can't add more weight to certain others so Danny in in in in practice then for each special permit presented to us we should have findings for each of these six right so that we're saying we the planning board finds that the social economic Community needs are served by this proposal traffic flow will not be aers affected etc etc correct and then you have the decision but you need to have these the findings mat to the criteria correct okay and that's how and then so um I believe the when I first started I wrote the special the decision for uh the I believe it was Noya maybe it was I can't remember exactly which one it was but there was a special perit involved and we went through each of these sections remember that yes or no and and within those that's where you you you know you explain why it does and why it doesn't you'll also hear Charlie talk about these and his when Charlie goes through a process yeah he yes no he he was here what last meeting we had Charlie was going through a similar situation correct it's a checklist he uses it yes yep Mr chair please Canen so I did attend the same presentation and probably watched it again you know on the video that Danny made to other boards about this particular issue and they struggled with that most recent statement that you had they they felt that they couldn't carry each of those with the same weight understood they felt that they need they focused on one particular one more weight three and five no uh four four that's what I figed and I just want to note the is the one that's thank you for saying that that's what I was just going to say it's really tricky that's a terrible explanation of something because we cannot Define neighborhood character or social structure and and so this is where that that um but was a discussion of water the ability of conditions comes into play because whatever let's say if the characteristic of the neighborhood is they have um they're all ranches you know or they have a spe certain design you can condition it so that you know is this condition of like it has to look has to have this kind of look has to have that's a challenge yeah so one Bas code you know it it has there are some some areas where those conditions can be implemented but there's also some of those areas where those conditions can't be enforced like if you want the garage on the back side of the house so that you know you're not parking in front you could drive up and then you're driving into the back that can be conditioned you know there's situations sry I didn't mean to cut Nathan in our in our town aren't special permits enumerated I'm sorry or what enumerated that there are there are only certain categories of special permits yes so there isn't a special permit for the style of the home correct right if that were in our bylaw then the style of the home would have to go through these six0 but but really when you apply for uh when you make an application the there only a limited number of special of of types correct of special permits that you have to be concerned about correct it's not it's not a wide openen uh field yes you're right it's more than and you're you're right it is more than you know most people think we just don't really see them very often right but like the the only example and and here I have some examples up here so some of the examples that you can set are you know the front side rear yard you know they can be greater than the minimum required by the bylaw uh screening buffers imp planting strips you know fencing wall stuff like that design installation of lighting that's definitely something that can be conditioned dark sky compliant making sure you know it it has you know those kind of looks uh the light is not an LED LI or you know those kind of things limitation on size number of occupants method time so that's more for like a restaurant like if you have a restaurant and you want to cap how much how big it is you can do that um but remember you have to have a valid reasoning behind the condition that because if they appeal it and there's no actual reasoning behind it they will it get it will get removed so Danny one of the things I'm thinking of when you're talking about this is that a defensible decision will have findings rooted in fact and reason correct right and and of course there's always going to be ambiguity but as long as at least we have something that we address them and have facts and reason it's more defensible what's not defensible in my understanding is if we have 15 people neighbors butter show up and they're just unhappy with it it's not defensible to make the decision based on well a number the neighbors are opposed that's not a defensible reason declining a special permit correct and that was actually raised as cptc that that is not a valid reason to deny an application this is where you would find a condition you try to find some middle you try to find a the the the the the step back position is find a condition that's going to work for everybody correct yeah or as much as possible as much as possible you're you're imposing a condition but yes you're you're changing and there are the occasions where you know the the you have already set a condition that is going to address most of everyone's concerns but there are still going to be neighbors and ab buts that will not want this right they have you know it's it's it's set out for them to have an appeal if they want to take that after the fact the either side can appeal it correct the the developer the applicant can appeal it or the neighbors can appeal anybody can appeal if you have 10 signatures but that gets into some way more than we need to but if if if if a if you if a person who has standing we'll just say that if a person who has standing appeals it um they have that process that's why we have a 20-day appeal process M you have 20 days to appeal it if you haven't appealed it within those 20 days then at that point it's a moot it's Moot and it moves forward move forward can I ask are you is there yes I want to go back one slide and question and then cath oh I'm sorry what's it going to take to remove number four tell I don't think we need to I just put that on the table and and so this is this is what I'll how I'll say this so one I don't think we need to remove that because or Define it yes there is some subjectivity and that's that's built in that's there's a reason for that because special permits are conditional use permits it's it's a four vote so there's it gives the town a little bit more discretionary uh uh uh Power on that to make sure that there's certain things that the town feels need to be addressed and I don't think that's an issue because most occasions in which that will be raised is usually most of the time it's residential and and if it is a residential use let's say the two family for example if we don't want uh two families to look like a two family in a neighborhood that's all single families there's a you can condition that the front of the house looks like a single family home yeah so there's just one door and on the inside it it's designed so that it breaks off differently kind of just like that so I don't think there's a necessary there's a need for that to be changed okay and then I to ask a question social structures social structures yes I mean it's it's how tough is that what is it so it's it's subjective it's it's it's this I'm going to our most recent experience two multifamilies within 500 ft of predominantly multif family buildings across street from a beach yes multi or on on that across the street from a beach two okay not not multi two fames two families excuse me single entrance two families okay and the six entrance multif family that's just up the street next door the social structure of the beach how does that impact I mean honestly so the social structure I mean just just in that example the social structure of the beach has does not play a part into this I would say the neighborhood character I could say you know maybe the beach plays into the way of how families interact with that area and but I don't see how that could be an ad an adverse impact there is no that's EXA that's exactly what I was saying yes there is no adverse impact from the beach on those units and in that in that situation um and if there was we need explanation of what is the adverse impact and can we condition it to relief give them relief from that adverse impact Kathleen did you you had something I just have two uh clarifications on the conditions yes so can and perhaps this just doesn't happen but can an applicant appeal a condition yeah just a condition not the no so the way it works is you're when you appeal a decision you're appealing the whole decision but you specify which sections of the appe of the decision is what you're appealing right so you could theoretically say I don't know the the the timing of the gas station like this is just we we want to build this but that this condition is so onerous we're going to appeal it and try to strike off that condition yes or have the condition modified but can you strike off the condition without striking off the special permit in that inst yes yes the way so the way it would work is let's say the applicant app feels the decision he would then take it to I believe our process is um the zoning board first um it goes to the zoning board for uh review from there and through the it depends on where it's exactly depends where the decision was made it depends on the decision so it's like some is zoning board some is is to the state to goes to Superior Court so depending on the process what you do is you're going in there to tell them okay this condition is is um is too much basically it's too orous on this on this and doesn't fit the special apartment and the decision um and you need to what they'll do is they'll go in they have to prove why they have to give an exact you know you most of the time if it's a time like if it's you know oh we have to close at 8:00 p.m. like that is they'll go and give you they'll have to give examples is well why is closing at 8:00 p.m. versus whatever time you want to close um too difficult for the business so you give you know I'm sure they they'll pull out how much how much money they'll be losing between those times um you know but is that a live process like you have a gas station and it's built and it's been an operation you wouldn't be able to you wouldn't be able to build it without the special permit right but you you build the gas station with the permit and then you know after running for 2 years you you decide that that this time condition is too owner so you only you can days so so that condition is in the gas station is built and they have no recourse to change the only recourse what happens is different in the real world yes there's always recourse there is recourse the only recourse you can do is to come into this to whichever B special granting Authority it is and ask for a modification so which goes through a public hearing you know legal notice all that you can come back in present why you want that if the board feels okay that is a viable reason as to why you want this amendment then the board can make that uh can approve that but it's still a a a super majority vote so you still need a 4 F vote if two years down the road you feel that that condition is is too honorous and they come in and deny it then at that point it it it getss a little confusing now now you to take it to Superior Court and then it's like all these a it gets it's it's very difficult and you don't typically see that is what I'm saying however on the obverse not the opposite side but the obverse is um something happened in the United States worldwide in the last four years all of a sudden we gave restaurants permission to use public space to serve guess what's still out there restaurants using public space to serve not a single planning board or zoning board of appeals was approached and told and said boy it's honorous for us not to have those tables out front can we keep them we recognize as a community that they're just it's not a bad idea yeah and so so that so that that wasn't that's not that was not a fought battle in any Community but they still exist was kind of an emergency situation well then but it's no longer an emergency situation but people like the idea of walkable stuff so it just yeah so things are changeable for different reasons I wanted to make I think a pretty important fact and it's obvious by us having a professional planner with us that we have a chance to you know go through this process but I'd like to ask that the professional planner make try to make an effort that when they talk to people who come into town hall that they approach the special permit process the same way that we would look at it in other words that they say we believe our project complies with this we believe our project complies with that so as a part of their presentation now we had that happen with an osrd and it was the best presentation we ever had it was it was pan to place at the end of pan to place he list he went through each of the items in the required ID findings and said this is the reason we believe our project complies with those requirements and it became easy for us to agree and then just vote on the finding yeah and so just so you know I've already done that I've updated the special permit application and a and a narrative going through each of those special criteria is a requirement now good so that's a plus thank you very much that is that is Improvement you know that's the kind of stuff that we have been fortunate enough to see as a planning board now we need to see that maybe and that yes and and that is something that I have been in discussions with uh you know for other boards as well yeah comparable to what we asked about waivers a similar thing the owner should be on the applicant to demonstrate why not on us to say why not no you tell you make the case applicant and they'll be willing they're easily willing to do that because they just want they just want the information about what they need to give us in their in their presentation and then they'll turn ahead and do it go right ahead and do it excuse me um so anyway that was my thought thank you did you have any other questions cine I thought you had um there was one about the the enforcement of this so say you you make a condition yep and it is violated yes so either during the construction process or in like the timing of the gas station example yes what is the the recourse on that so typically the way it works is depending on what so the way it always so the Building Commissioner he is the zoning enforcement officer he is the one who uh makes the enforcement so depending on the stage at which you're talking about construction or post construction he's going to make that determination but the enforce is different depending on the what we're talking about so if it's during construction it's it's a cease and desist you can you get shut down and it's fig it's making sure you get into compliance MH if it's after the fact that's where fines can come in fines get issued so right now it's 50 for the first day 100 for the second day two uh three 200 for the third day and then 300 every day after okay wow want to continue with the um yes so these were some of the uh conditions on how I mean conditions and how they work on the implementation I gave some examples down at the bottom uh you know set a time frame for a special permit and when it will be renewed so kind of like um what we see with the um uh marijuana facilities that's what typically they they require you to come back in renew it to make sure that everything's being up kept up to standards um so you'll see that with certain types of special permits and that triggers the same every time the applicant pays the same fee same a butter notification or is there difference between initial there is a so it depends on the town some towns have a special permit renewal which is like $100 and it's just kind of you're coming in it's not a public hearing it's a public meeting some require a public hearing um I believe we do not have a public meeting I think it's a public hearing I believe is required for special permit renewal for the marijuana ones cuz those are the only ones I think we have that are required for renewals is that the adus they don't have any yet it's you know what it's very possible you might be right it's an annual renewal is it okay so you might it's a problem yeah and hav got to that and that's something that well the Adu is something that I want to work on as well so but yes um so that that's another occasion where it could be um we also do that in kind of in sight plan review as well we have a certain amount of time in which we limit and um that they have to act and if once they've acted then if they haven't finished full build out by year five they have to come in for an extension so we have it built into both of those um another one is you know we I used this example before is make a two family look like a one family from the front of front facade and then also set a limit on how many work vehicles and allowed for a landscap company in a residential zone so it's you know those are those type of conditions which most people most companies applicants will accept because you know it's that or nothing usually and and those are pretty much a little bit it's not like something crazy where it's like you're not allowed anything out outside or there's there's it's a little bit more of an extra step but it's something that most people can can deal with condition renewal yes okay yes that is a that's something that every that you can condition okay yeah you wouldn't typically see it with like like you could see it with a special permit for a daycare yes special permit for a daycare a special permit for a daycare you you know re for a um a lot of rural communities have um hairdressers and barber shops a knife sharpening a small engine repair they they're auto shop small auto shop or something like that you'll see those for things like that and that's just because it's not going to be in business forever yeah and you also want to make sure that it gives the town a little bit extra uh um like say the auto body shop is working outside when they're not supposed to be working outside and they're they and they've been you know they've had a couple of zoning enforcements on them because of it when they come back for the renewal you you can at that point it's it's a possibility that you could if it's a public hearing add additional condition where you if this you know this can't be yes a landscape company that's storing old grass in their trucks in the driveway yeah it smells like skunk within a day that's that can be something annoying to neighbors yes you know okay and I believe oh so decisions for special permits this was uh this is also important is so when Zoning Board of appeal is considering special permits or the planning board uh you know they must go through the six criteria looking at um section 3.4 B of the air zoning bylaws that's specifically our special permit criterias uh the zoning board uh should go through each so in this occasion either special permit granting Authority either board uh should go through each of the six criteria determined whether the proposed use would or would not have an adverse impact based on each criteria each board member should State whether or not the proposed use meets each criteria if the majority of the six are in the affirmative the Z you know the the board will uh shall Grant the special permit uh the findings within the decision will state if the application does or does not meet each criterias and the conditions approved by the board shall be stated within the decision so this is very important with a decision is decisions need need to have one uh findings of facts which SS with us if it's a special permit it's the six criteria with the explanation of how the board feels it meets it or doesn't meet it and if you don't feel like it meets it you write out why plus the condition um we do this also with site plan review so site plan review we have criteria in which we review each section make sure that the application meets it as a whole and so typically one you can you can go through each of them and write it out but typically with C review it's a little bit more difficult because of it's quite more extensive so what you typically say is you know it's a summary of it meets the whole app it meets you know the summary of all of these criterias I also just want to draw attention to the use of sha instead of may make is is discretionary sh is obligatory yes and I think it's important to see see that the our language in our bylaw says shall if they meet the conditions then I think the way the law looks at is that they should get it because they have met it yes and this is this is where the what I see was is is where you know certain wordss were having a little bit of the trouble is is the sh and and they felt that the because it's a special permit you know it's discretionary yes it is discretionary to an extent debt the discretionary portion of it is not whether or not you're going to give it the discretionary portion of it is the is what are you know is it ad an adverse impact is it not is it a you know are is there going to be a condition on it or not it does it meet the criteria if it meets the criteria there's you don't have the discretion of saying no you you H at that point you're voting in the affirmative for that application unless there's I don't see a reasoning behind denying it if there is if it meets all of the criteria there's I just don't there's no occasion for that whereas in so like with site plan approval is really what it's actually called there's a reasoning why it's called that way it's because it's not to deny a site plan the only there's only two things you can do and it's only for one lack of information two the application just doesn't it doesn't conform and those are the only two occasions special permits gives you a little bit more discretion you can you know condition certain things make it work but it's still one of those permits that if it meets those special permit criteria then you then you're you you're you have to give that permit it's not discretionary discretionary on whether or not you give it so there's and that's I think where the problem is is when they're typically ref referred to as discretionary permits the inference of the permit is discretionary is not the right inference that can be disputed in a quot of law on the um so one of the criteria was like Public Utilities so is it a best practice that you recommend that whatever the the board that is is deciding on the special permit should consult with the DPW prior and so a perfect example would be whatever the DPW says we we we don't override that correct yeah so a perfect example would be like um and this I know this wasn't a special permit but let's see West Main Street it's a project you know 170 units 72 units 71 whatever it was was there water and sewer and electricity exactly it's like does it have do does the town have enough Capac capacity within our utilities to you know deal with that um there's occasions where like if you have a big restaurant you know that's where something it's like all right are you going to have um uh separators for the oils and stuff like grease traps you're going to have all these types of different things that utilities come into play those are considered utilities electric water but there's also other types of utilities that will come into play um and those you can uh review and if the DPW says you know this use will be too cumbersome on how much water we have the use is is it takes up too much water that is that is a something that you can look at and at that point and which I don't see any occasion where that would actually happen um it may be an occasion in which you know there's a condition where you set how much water they can use in a certain day how many gallons per day so in the case with our with our wastewater treatment plant we have a light we have a permit for so many gallons a day Nya uses a lot of water if they want to double their if they want to expand and double their size they may have to come up with another way of handling the water and not put it into our Wastewater system that would be one a second one would be if we were West Main Street was a five-story or six-story building we don't have the fire apparatus to fight it safely we're putting our firemen at risk so it's not a utility as much as a public safety we may require a new truck yeah or new infrastructure to fight a fire down there and that goes onto the shoulders of the developer correct it's not uncommon for developers to purchase fire apparatus in situations where they think they've got a good economic play yeah and especially where you know they're may be the occasion where a project is so vast such a big project like uh in the occasion like I I did a project in mayard at Maynard Crossings where we had to do a fiscal analysis on the impacts on the town that this project was going to have and rkg who actually was the one who was giv the presentation at uh cptc was the one who did it for us and it told it told the town at which points how many of these units at which points would they would need a new police officer a new firefighter a new truck new you know all of these impacts in that full study goes into all of that and it in that occasion it falls on the applicant or the developer where certain of those triggers you're giving a lumpsum submission on utilities on on for payment for that that vehicle you know just like that it man crossing mhm talk about offline phenomenal project for thank you Kathleen's benefit so when an application comes in to the zoning board of appeals by the planning board the applic the application is sent to all the town departments and so they then have a chance to comment Danny comments on the applications that come in and go to zoning and so forth and so on and I'll leave it at that so typically the DPW then has an opportunity to say whatever they need to say and you're right if once they make their decision we don't have to override the decision we have the information in front of us but that my question was more on the Nuance of like I understand why but the question is can you override yes we can challenge we don't have the technal DPW is saying there's there's no issue yeah can the planning board say there's an issue no no no well we don't have so this is this I get what you're what you're saying you can have a personal belief question I love it it is it is a l question you can have the personal belief that there's going to be an impact even though so how do I this is this one's like one of those yeah don't go there well so there's the occasion where some people don't believe the engineer the calculations of those engineers and that's why you get peer reviews there's occasions where even the peer review affirms that and people still don't agree with it it happens but the board cannot there there is a point where some author ities are conclusive corre for example like a survey once it gets if it's stamped by certified licensed that's definitive buck stops there and for instance there are some things like with safety if the fire fire and police say it's safe it's safe M the buck stops though there are places where it may not permanently stop as but it stops there's certain areas yeah where traffic is usually the one where you mostly see that it's you'll see a PE you'll see the applicant submit you'll see a peer review on that and people still be and still say because you know oh I live on this I live on this street I see how many cars go by well that was my question is the Nuance of like some some Authority besides the board comes in and rubber stamps something but then you have neighbors that come in and say oh this traffic like it it seems that there is actually no discretion there they they can hire their own consultant yeah so they they dou thing they could and that's why we would put it out for a peerreview for a second opinion another engineer that is independent they review that information to make sure typically what you'll see is you know when you make a peer review they'll be like all right can you do this can you do this fix this fix that and it's mainly just comments to address you know maybe they don't meet a certain section of this bylaw like the small little context of this but there is no it's not like they can just say well I don't agree with the the planning board can't just say I don't agree with what the peer reviewer says the town residents are more than welcome to they can appeal it even if they don't feel because they don't feel what what everything has been presented is is um not true they can appeal it but then they have to um they have to hire their own consultant to prove that it's not can I give an example of real life situation because it was before Kathleen and it was before Danny is it going to open up a whole new can no okay it has to do with the peer reviews okay so all town the actual nice gas station and convenience store that came in traffic was a big concern over there huge concern because it's a busy street to start with it is so we ended up with two peer reviews one by the applicants in one by us both at the cost of the applicant we don't pay for peer reviews the applicant does those two guys two traffic Consultants then sat down next to each other and reviewed their notes and had all these questions and whatnot talked about but at the end of the day we there was a compromise and it all worked out and the the results pretty much matched what they thought they were going to match you know they come up they basically come up with kind of the same result they had to come back and do it after Co too because the street was empty for a year right and then the other what ended up happening with was a special permit on that and buk some M we concluded that we would wait one year and if requireed if we saw a problem on that street that we would require that the the street be widened so widening was the best alternative but an expensive and maybe not necessary alternative so that's what ended happened and I don't think anything changed I think the traffic pretty much stayed the same and that was it no street wiing but that was example of a special permit with a condition that was actually down the line the where go so that was just an example yes yeah thank you yeah done with this I'm done okay great oh yeah cuz this was just the cptc all right which yeah town meeting update yes town meeting update so um the select board will be making their final approval of the um Town warrant at their next plan at their next meeting which is I believe April 2 thank you April 2nd um so the four items that with the Amendments that the board made have been given to Robert Robert has put them into the warrant article and they're they're bringing it to the select board so they'll be making the final approval at that date and then um I am putting together a uh present it's similar to the same presentation I gave to the select board but added some dates in there from um uh from all the boards that we met with when the legal notices went out when the public hearing occurred just so that everyone when we get to town meeting knows you know this is isn't just popping up now it's something that has been in the works for quite a while absolutely yeah just to show all the dates good thank you that's it yeah thank you go ahead Mr disc did you talk to Alan about any of the language on the 1033 at all Alan monoy yes so did he have a suggestion that yeah yes um um So based on I'm I'm waiting to hear back from Robert but based on my conversation um that that would need an amend uh that would need to be approved by town meeting so I am in agreement with the recommendation that was given by Allan and and just in case any uh anyone doesn't know he made he wanted a recommendation of under Section 6.3 H which is the where uh the 750s uh is square foot yep the square foot is is talked about uh making a reference that for inclus uh for multif family to check 10.3 for the inclusionary um regarding that so it is a good recommendation but at this point um we've already approved the the warrant articles and have moved it to town meeting so we can't make any Amendment this this is something that we can change we can do in the fall it's not a big deal it's not something it's just mainly a reference note that he wants to add which I don't see any issues with which we can do in the fall it was a way to to make sure a person who reviewed the zoning board when they were in the section of the 750 requirement would see a small note at the bottom let's say if I understand go over here and look over here yeah I understand okay and our working group though we were told that as different section is a different warrant article correct yep yeah yeah thank you thank you we have a motion to approve the March 12th 20 24 minutes so moved seconded any discussion hearing none how do you vote Mr disco hi Julie yes Jeff hi Nathan hi there votes I um public input hi welcome was there a particular issue that you were interested in we're not a ride to my husband that's right that's I love it Mr chair how do you how do you feel about that I'm losing my mind it's getting late don't worry we're grateful for you he's been it's been a r it's been a it's been a week my apologies sorry we don't have a zoom so anyway uh we got we we got the minutes approved uh yes uh motion to adjourn so move