##VIDEO ID:khDBLw7AIZQ## hello and welcome to the Tuesday August 13th 2024 meeting of the air planning board this meeting hearing of the air planning board will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this inperson meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance and our participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID number 833 6548 0732 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Danny Ruiz Town planner at D a.m. us or 97877 to 8220 extension 144 prior to the meeting uh first item of business regarding the agenda do I have a motion to approve some move do I have a second second is any discussion on revisions or anything otherwise no hearing none I'll start taking Ken I Julie yes C think yes Ean Jared votes I it's unanimous uh the first item is a public hearing for zero Bishop Street and zero Park Street uh New England power I'd like to read invite the representatives of the applicant to come to the table and I want to read the opening public hearing notice this is the public hearing notice Rec sites plan special permit in storm water the air planning board will be conducting a hybrid public hearing at 6:15 p.m. on Tuesday August 13 2024 in the first floor meeting room at air toown hall One Main Street to consider the site special perit and stormw Water application submitted by New England power company for the properties located at zero Bishop Road and zero Park street map 19 Parcels 10 11 and 12 the aican is proposing improvements to the existing electric substation known as air substation number 2011 the applicant is requesting a special permit to allow for the proposed light fixtures to exceed the maximum allow height of 15 ft the applicant is also seeking a storm water permit for a major product project under the storm water bylaw in coordination with the site plan review for more information please contact the air planning office at 98 978 772 8220 extension 144 or planning at a.m. us uh do I have a motion to open the public hearing for zero Bishop Street and zero Park Street so move oh got a second from Julie uh any discussion hearing none Ken how do you vote yes Julie yes Kathleen yes Nathan hi sure votes I welcome so what I'd like to do I'm going to ask the town planner just to set up the context then I'm going to turn the meeting to you you guys I ask to introduce yourself by name and who you represent and I'm going to ask you to do your narrative what this is about and walk us through and then we'll have opportunity for questions and we'll discuss next steps about what we need to move this further along Danny all right uh so uh this project is at the corner of Bishop and Park Street uh right next to right just before the railroad tracks of um before the uh uh Cemetery um the project is site plan review um there's also a special permit component for the height of the uh lights and there's a major storm water management permit uh component to this due to the expansion of um the impervious area and the trigger um for a major uh major storm water management permit um the uh the applicants did come before uh I believe in March of 2023 uh to a land use meeting here uh just to give an initial presentation to uh the land use uh group and then uh they we haden't heard for a while and then recently they came with a submission um as that you see before us uh there is uh they will be going before the uh Conservation Commission when they make their submission for an noi so that is one other uh open item that they will be making um to conservation has that date been set already no no that date hasn't been established yet okay um and there were some review letters one from the DPW one from myself uh and then there was one from uh conservation the conservation agent Heather and then fire did give a comment letter but no comment no comments okay great hey joh to introduce yourselves and then take it from there sure uh thank you Mr chair so for the record my name is Joshua Lee Smith and I'm the outside land use Council for National Grid uh in this case the applicant um New England power company Joshua Brian Wentworth uh the civil engineer uh BC group representing uh new thank you I'm going to ask to speak up a little louder when chok thank you sir great so um well Danny gave a good overview of the project and I'm uh assuming to some extent uh folks are on the table here at least and maybe some in the audience are familiar with the site generally um this is within the general business zoning district and uh it is as Danny mentioned at the corner it's a corner lot uh at the corner of Bishop Road and Park Street uh this is a pre-existing substation uh goes back many many decades uh we did meet with uh various Town officials I think you are not here before I was here okay right um so we had met with the previous uh planner Danny's predecessor as well as the Building Commissioner uh and maybe one other uh individual to discuss the project um like a lot of these National Grid projects go uh sometimes they go in fits and starts in terms of getting funding internally and Etc so um and finalization of design so we we were able to get this project going in terms of making a filing as Danny mentioned uh there are various local permits that are required site plan review uh storm water permit as well as a special permit in connection with the lighting uh that's proposed the the local bylaw includes a special permit to the extent that lighting exceeds 15 ft which uh the proposed lighting at the uh site will be approximately 30 5 ft in height which is similar to some of the lighting that is already existing at the site generally speaking and as you can see here uh this is an aerial depiction uh of the site little bit zoomed out uh but it's important to to see that the surrounding context the neighborhood uh it's a kind of a mix between unimproved Lots uh as well as to the north you can see there's a pretty significant Industrial Area uh businesses mix of businesses across the street that's across Park Street and I assume these guys are pretty quiet pretty quiet yes as far as I know uh that's a semary to the to the left um there are railroad tracks to the South uh and then obviously to the east there you can see quite a big large swath of uh uh unimproved woodlands and so the expansion um project which is really what this is about I'm sorry I'm going to scroll here uh this is a little bit more zoomed in depiction area I want to just zoom out a little at the top uh the zoom out button at the top the 67% oh yes yeah my is there I know you're trying left-handed that's it was impressive okay so here here's the depiction of the site and again just to get your bearings along the top is Park Street and then along the left is uh Bishop Road and so the the expansion generally is going to be uh a few feet towards Park Street and a few feet towards Bishop Road uh there are some existing mature trees that are along Bishop Road that will have to be removed although as you could see the cursor that Brian is showing there on the left there will be uh quite a substantial amount of new uh non- deciduous plantings or Evergreens that will be in uh planted right along Bishop Road uh and we'll we have another slide that shows the general area of where the removal and new plantings will occur so the fencing is going to be expanded as I said about 20 20 to 25 ft in both directions towards Park Street and then P towards Bishop Road this will allow for uh you could see a bit of an overlay here of the various equipment typical substation equipment Transformers circuit breakers switches uh there'll be some new HF frame structures that will be added uh as well as in that sort of center part this long um rectangular shaped uh object there that is the new control house so that'll be about 2200 ft in size uh and again will house various equipment necessary yes Mr chair so coun just just quickly what's the motivation here I mean what why what's the why here is it is it increased capacity what's driving this generally speaking uh as as you can imagine the company owns and operates thousands of these types of substations of various sizes bulk power substations some smaller this is s kind of a mid-range level there's 115 KV as well as uh 69 KV and I believe 13 KV circuits that are coming in and out of this substation uh as I said at the beginning this substation goes back decades uh I think it's well over 50 years in age some of the equipment not all of it is quite that old but a lot of it yes it's very durable however it it does run its useful life and of the equipment here needs to be modernized and upgraded so uh that is it's all about reliability uh and it's for the benefit of the town I'll remind the board uh we were before this board uh about two years ago uh in connection with Sandy Pond which is another substation site um and so there was an expansion there very similar to What's Happening Here uh so upgrading of the equipment upgrading of what's technically a building the only um building uh the control house about 2200 ft the expansion will also uh allow for um the security fencing to be upgraded to Grid's current standard which is 8 ft plus 1T of uh barb wire so a total of 9 ft that is their Standard Security uh fencing height chain link in nature and so that will also be uh another upgrade uh for security purposes um is it like the barb wire that like comes out angles just the why it's not the concertina stuff right it's the just the bar that's that's correct I really three strand yeah the three strand it's at an angle yeah not the circular one right right not prison type um so uh that's that's essentially the the project in a nutshell um Brian do you want to give a little more insight um I think you know you you um hit most of the high points here it's really just it it does involve expansion of the fence and the to the north and to the West here um uh the expansion does uh include about 3,500 ft of wetland Phil here um you know Danny mentioned that we'll be uh filing an noi to discuss with the Conservation Commission uh that Wetland fill um as a required it's not shown on this this plan it is included in the in the site plans that were submitted but there is a wetland replication that's required and it's planned for for this area here um next to the existing stream and and Wetland here um anything else um you know we mentioned the storm water permit uh storm water is generally being handled by the the yard stone um that is you know uh standard for a electrical substation and you know with with this kind of electrical substations in general there's not a lot of additional impervious area that's added so it's not a a significant increase in Peak flows or change to the hydrology so the um the additional Stone that's being added and the it's a clean 3/4 in gravel that has a lot of void space and a lot of detention volume naturally so you know the the design and the hydrology calculations that are included in the storm water report that was submitted uh take advantage of that and and show that um demonstrate the compliance with the storm water standards just by um nature of the gravel absorbing the control house is that is that just for equipment or is there uh will there be human beings uh in it as people once in a while there certainly will be equipment in it and if you were to ask a substation engineer at grid they'll say that this is actually equipment um switch gear equipment uh a can enter the building therefore it is technically a building and does require a building permit gotcha I don't it wouldn't be considered in anyone's office though it's not nobody's working there you know dayto day thank you y so happy to answer any other questions oh that's good so uh the processes so for those who are attending the process first the board goes around for questions and then we open it up to the public so you will have a chance sir um who wants to lead off of questions notice All Eyes turned to Ken but you mean to put pressure on you um but I have a you if you want to go first I have just did you guys if you looked at the comments from the Departments already DPW and whatnot yep yeah we're consistency in the one that the DPW asked and Danny asked regarding entrance driveway you going take up a look at that or must it line up with that spot we are you know we we've discussed with the project team and and the engineers on board have assured me that they do they definitely need that for at least construction and they'd like to have it as a permanent entrance um it will be uh considered a secondary entrance the the existing entrance to the site will be uh will still be used as the primary entrance there's not going to be an increase in in um traffic to the substation following construction so um but for for future maintenance and uh projects and just accessibility to get to the uh right yep that's the new entrance thank you um so to expand upon that um there is an existing entry point uh which is located here y down here along Bishop Road so this this and that there's no changes with respect to this entry point uh this is the uh new entry point which would be an additional entry point and as Brian noted it will primarily be with respect to serving construction activities in connection with this project uh this site is already I'll repeat it again this is an unmanned substation to begin with so even the main entry point here this is not a high traffic site at all uh here certainly during construction activities and from very infrequent time to time uh the company may need to have larger Vehicles specialized vehicles that they need to access the site if large equipment needs to be swapped out uh usually would be the case uh so as much as this main entry point will be pretty infrequently used because this is an unmanned substation this one that that the client is proposing would be even less used and I will point out that I think one of the comments from DPW was the distance from where this entry point is in relation to where the intersection is of the two streets this is a pretty significant distance and about 100t over about 100t so we we don't feel that in the combination of it not being frequently trafficked but also or accessed plus the the pretty significant distance from the intersection we feel there's no safety issue a misunderstanding on that distance no I mean that's that's what uh the DPW and myself discussed about that we that's how we feel uh they haven't had a chance to actually respond to the comments and talk to DPW so that's going to happen after after these meetings so uh Josh did you is this your this this your work the both work that's correct the teams work very nice high quality piece of work so thank you for that application absolutely the application is got to be one of the best way I've ever seen is true um did notice that you we that the application included detailed answers hold on for the record about why we think it's good for anyone who's watching because they're about to submit an application one of the reasons that's excellent is that because you provided detailed informative answers to the question you know for what for how why does this meet all the concerns that we have under aight plan review and under each section of the bylaw you had a paragraph saying exactly why this fits so that's I I don't know what if that's what Ken was thinking of but that's what I saw that I admired so thank you um one of the comments well I guess DPW should we talk about the sewer and water and does this building have any facilities in it the new building but for the the new building no is not is okay so the only you do have facilities in the existing building that's correct yes okay so there's no change going to keep that whatever that is yeah there's an existing septic system um in the yard that that Services the uh the restroom and the control the existing Control building um you know it seems to be functioning fine um it is maintain periodically we talk to the operations uh supervisor for this okay substation so there was a comment about that the um they're probably going to not need any new tians if they yeah so based on my discussion with him the they're not going to be changing anything with the septic there's not going to be uh a bathroom in in this new proposed so there's no real need to uh to change anything on that um you know obviously they're going to have to respond to the dpw's comment and you know tpw at that point will you know they'll discuss with them but uh I'm okay with them leaving it as it is um are we going to have to have a comprehensive list of waivers here because so so yeah so um you know in discussion with Jonathan about this there are some waivers that they are requesting um on here uh but I guess more extensively I I yes there there may need to be some additional waivers now that uh I've talked to Jonathan and just reviewing that there may be some additional waivers and I'll I'll get you a list of the ones that you are cuz as you went through your your um the the checklist when you went in here you said that yes there were going to be some but we will will require some reason the reasonings behind each of them in in a letter format just so that when the board does end up uh voting on it we have the reasonings for the decision as well so it's just some additional um write up that I'll I'll send over to you guys sure is there anybody here from National Grid right now tonight with you no we're both outside Consulting I thought it was good mhm mhm um Mr chair yes please I'm sorry Nathan I was just looking at my notes go ahead go Mak sure Ken was done um I know you're going to go into the Reclamation area probably in much more detail at the with the Conservation Commission um so don't need a lot of detail but more how is it going to change from the existing as far as again about view coming around that corner that intersection how will that differ from the existing condition today to the post condition presuming that goes through it's a good question um I would say I you know and this this is also you this may be redesigned when we when we revise um just based on the you know the um the requirements from the concom and the discussion with the concom so but I I do believe the vegetation along the uh along the street will not be impacted by this there should be some you know and I I believe there's some larger vegetation and and trees along that corner that that shouldn't be impacted by it so it should be kind of tucked behind that if you will so sight so would you say the sight lines will be the same or it should not be significantly impacted yeah and just for people's uh ocation here this is a a street view depiction uh from Brook uh not Brook Street Bishop Bishop Road and so this line here this segment of these of these trees here will need to be removed in order to accommodate the expansion for the portion of the substation fencing that's going to push towards Brook uh Bishop Road uh however as I said and as shown on the plans there will be a significant new plantings uh that will be uh added here in place of this to still be able to provide that visual buffer could you sorry no go ahead I not you brought that up I was curious do you would a cloud on the drawing indicate where the clearing would be rather than just you telling us on the screen I believe it's on the the site preparation plan uh C1 or C2 C2 keep probably see one yeah you can see there's there's a a a short line on the kind of southern side of the the expansion area y right there okay right which indicates you know generally where the the trees are going to come down so you looking at C1 what C2 C1 C1 y so I see something that says clear and Grub and remove all stumps blah blah baah the accommodates proposed work but it doesn't it's just pointing at one spot it's not like clouded in to the extent yeah there there is an existing it's it's a little uh it's faded screened back but there is an existing Tree Line there that it connects to so it it's essentially you know everything in that area oh you're see I can take another look at it the print we got didn't show the the background is what you're getting it's not clear here it's pretty hard to see it anyway I can take another look at it and see if there's a a clearer way to to represent that you good with that I mean I'd rather see the extent of what's going to be taken down like a limit of work L limit of work type thing for the for the clearing sure um and the other question that I had was on the replanting work the note there says proposed vegetative screening doesn't indicate the height unless I'm missing it on the planting list or something like the height of yeah so that was part so the vegetation the planting list is not has not been included that was one of my questions on what what was it that was going to be proposed there all right cool yeah and we're evaluating that and we'll we'll include more detail on still going to be like 12 to 15 ft High something like that yeah we're still evaluating it but I mean the existing substation has you know you can see the the pine trees they're they're spaced out they're not uh they're mature pine trees so they're there's not a lot of branches below the fence line so and I know you know as Danny as I discussed um this morning the National Grid has a little bit of concern over security they want to be able want the general public to be able to see into the substation in in case there's an unauthorized entry and you know they'd like so I get that they like they like to limit the screening so you know what we're considering that's why one of my questions was like about the slats into the chain link and he did say like for security reasons they do not uh put the in right right because you don't want to provide concealment right on purpose that makes a lot of want the general public and you know um police force or anybody that's that's monitoring the substation be able to see in there yeah that ties into something there was you know obviously a news item a couple years ago you remember there was an incident with a substation and there was a shooting and there was some concern about the vulnerability of the I guess the Transformers everything yeah I mean is that an issue in play here in terms of security about everything's a big issue well it's security is always of Paramount concern um I I'm familiar with that story I think it North Carolina um but yes this is why uh our water sources our substation facilities uh Our Generation sites these could be targets for people that want to do us harm um so depending on the nature of what type of substation it is uh National Grid will have varying degrees of security and uh but I will say that all of the substations uh from distribution all the way up to the largest 345 KV substations have uh automat they have monitoring 247 and they if anything does happen it gets it goes back to their troubleman remote uh Center and uh someone will be alerted the local authorities will be alerted and uh people will come to the site if something is um occurs excuse me Mr J the reason I asked about National Grid is and I see Miss Max in the audience there's a project that's going on right now this new um I'm not sure the exact term you use for the STS poles whatever right ad joining this site going up the slope with transmission lines that that did not require that's simply maintenance I guess of some under some category of maintenance for you guys so it didn't require any kind of sight plan review is that what I was talking about yeah uh the building inspector is is aware of what they were doing up there they did have to get an RDA from conservation that's no that's different that's different yeah that was a different RDA yeah you're talking about the one just past the I'm talking about right up the slope where they just put in some brand new Gall the street and I'm not what's the correct name for those tall poles columns Towers structures Towers couple of new towers you're talking about this way yes and you actually put an access rope in there rough a little Access Road in so that's what how does that where does that fall in all this uh typically that that type of infrastructure is is considered exempt from zoning so it's not like a substation that has sort of a defined fence line and um enclosure with equipment uh transmission lines distribution lines that type of infrastructure that's offsite outside of the substations are usually exempt from zoning yeah Public public utility the only comment I have on that is since we have no control I think part of it's actually on this property so there driving yeah there's some that's being done up here and in this area right up here right but as they approach it as they get to it they have to drive along the perimeter of the back here so I'm just thinking if there's any language we can put in you do it automatically that says we we will replace it in kind to what it was before we Disturbed the area so the truck tracks traffic and the big machine traffic gets at least it gets repair oh you just don't leave it there it's off if it's off property we don't have the authority to do that we can ask them no I think it is on I they do I think it might be right in the corner of this site that's what I'm getting at they're actually driving right through the back there yeah if you're talking about this no I'm talking about well I'd have to look it on Google Maps right here yeah well you know where it is you guys know where it is right it's right to the right to to the north yeah behind the right here right on the transmission the other side right there yeah no no yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about they're upgrading up here yeah so Charlie does know about it he's he's he's he's already informed about um he's he he's UND he's been informed and he's been a part of it and all right forget about it then okay thank you Nathan do you have any more I'm good thank you Julie thank you Kathleen uh quick question in terms of uh do you expect more change in lighting there B on the new equipment I don't know I'm going to ask you to speak up so hear you the question is um based on the kind of Renovations and new equipment that's coming to the site is do you expect the lighting footprint to be much brighter uh there is a on the plans there is a lighting plan that they provided in the back um it's part of the actual site plan application uh it's on this it's part of this one so if you go to the the back portion of that um packet um you'll see a plan right here I think I skimmed it I was just asking for like a like a lay person's okay yeah 10% brighter like the I don't know if you know that short answer is no um there will be new lighting a lot of the lighting will be U similar in nature similar in height to what exists there today okay but again just similar just like a lot of the other equipment that's there now that's outdated that's gone past useful life some of the light support systems same thing and um in fact the lighting probably uh would be would illuminate less from from the vantage point of if you're off the street looking at the substation I believe in fact that at this substation I don't think the lighting would be kept on at night I think it's it's it would be dark there's no lighting I don't believe uh that would be on unless someone comes to the site okay oh and and the light so they're going to be 4,000 Kelvin which is not very bright white but it's going to be you know a little bit lower than that so and they're all downward Sky compliant so it shouldn't have any more of an impact than it current you know than what we see out there today cool Nathan would you pull up a chair for this gentleman so the gentleman the blue shirt if you would come up to the table and tell us your name and address and then whatever questions or comments you may have sure thing so my name is pet Dr Peter heri I reside at 75 Park Street could I get you to scroll just a bit up on the map yeah no sure right there so I live in that residence right there just across the street from the bank okay yeah and so I look at this power station daily we appreciate the power station we thank you so much for all that you do but I feel that this is my opportunity to ask you for something for me in that or for the the uh the the town at least because if you scroll just a touch up you can see that while on Bishop Pro there's nice I'm sorry scroll down so that we can get yeah on Bishop Pro there's a very nice cover for of trees where the residences don't get to see all of how the sausag is made but for our side both the bank and us look at the business end of this and I uh sent Danny uh Mr ru's a presentation that I prepared for today's uh public hearing and that's what I i' like to bring up is what I would like to request is that please consider putting in Greenery is it okay if I point with the mouse yeah sure I would really like to request that put in Greenery so the same kind of cover you put in for Bishop Road to put in the same thing along this side so that both the bank and us can be covered from the view of the power station because I feel that this magnificent NE necessary thing that we have here is actually going to reduce the resale value of my property if it gets keeps growing and growing and there isn't sort of a kind of a a concealment of sorts to uh prevent folks from being scared from the amount of wires Towers poles and just Hardware that you have residing there um sorry through the chair could you point to where the bank is that you mentioned right next we did so I spoke to the bank folks here and they also would would would appreciate if this all could be happening behind the line of trees that you're putting into Bishop Road cuz I felt that Bishop Road was very well concealed if we could have the same kind of concealment on this side that would be ideal I understand from what you said about safety and about the wires I would like for you to put something in here too but the world is full of compromises and I think we need to make that here too so I'm happy to to listen to your argument on why not to put something under the wires but I feel that something on this end all the way past this few here so that it could come all the way up to this tree line and I would like it to be Evergreen so that even in the winter we don't have to necessarily have the view the can't put anything under the B yeah I don't think you can so uh the first thing is I believe under the power lines they cannot put any choice understand I understand so that's that I understand that and so that's why you know I was in my dream of dreams I had that in there but I understand that this is not feasible so we still want the power station to go so but do you think that beside the power station would be feasible I'm sorry beside the power right here the the one thing that I would point out is that that there is a a wetland that wraps around that side of the the substation see the the black with the dots I got you there's there's um some space between that and the side of the parking lot here in do you understand the the concept of the buffer zone for the wetlands and whatnot that see the blue lines he's put on there yep that first between that blue line and the edge of the wetlands that's called the no disturb Zone we have a member of the we want to comment well he not to throw a wrench into that um planting within the buffer zone exemp so you can actually add vegetation that's what whether that vegetation is going to take is another story especially with a with a with an evergreen I don't believe there's many evergreens that like to sit in water 24/7 I don't think I can think of any that can so but it's a conversation for conservation to consider it's a it's a conversation on that aspect that have to get looked into um planting is exempt but again the type of vegetation that can be put in there is going to be a trinky part I'm okay with that yeah thank you for listening to me thank you thank you for sharing thank you yeah so I think that you know I'm just trying to reiterate that all I'm asking for is just for us to have some concealment CU I feel Bishop Road got some but I feel like that we're sort of we're have grass is is the level of cons have space between their lot line and the pavement a sidewalk there exactly can I that quickly and also I've had a number of birds come out and almost hit my car from the Wetland so you know I'm okay with with that not happening all the time also if they sort of channeled away from that well we don't have jurisdiction over the bird flight I understand no I but I was hoping that they wouldn't like or they would reside in the trees hopefully exactly and so yes that's Danny I swear okay so he's talking about this view exactly exactly that's exactly there and like I said I'm I'm not against anything I'm asking for your help wonder if the uh trees the same trees that are on the end I could live with just a row of trees just like that um not like like not planting today and it' be a tree in 20 years but like trees is this is this Vantage Point pretty much in line with your house that's it that's my that's my driveway that's where I come out that's a duplex up on that's right yeah yeah I mean from your house obviously it's not that's not the issue it's it's the resale value of the property is the issue is that when people come and look at it they're going to look at this view right here and they're going to say is there something better but you bought your house I understand but this the the the towers went up this past year but the substation was there but it was smaller and it's growing it's growing okay and your point was also winter those trees in your driveway are B yeah and so basically I I've lived here for 4 years this is the first certified mail I got in the a second one and I felt this is it means something having so many signatures in letter I should pay attention and ask questions so so the applicant I imagine will take this under advisement that okay Brian I see you're taking notes so okay yep yep we've noted the comment for sure and you know any thoughts Josh and I can't really make the the call um but we can discuss it with the team um you know the the only other thing I would note is that typically when we're when our our Wetland delineators go out to to to delineate the Wetland and I'm not exactly sure the extent of what they delineated but they'll delineate on the side of the project but not around so that the border on the yeah that that side right there I'd have to I'd have to double check to see if they actually delineated that or if that's uh part of the gis the gis Wetland system that we we usually merge it with that and stuff I got you but I fig felt that because there are trees already it's should be maybe able to sorry but if you take a look at that angle where that little point is there it looks like the bank May control a portion of the land to your eye it looks like it's not the banks but the a lot land goes at an angle so this is their driveway being straight but there's a piece right there that's under the banks control it's not under the slot I got you so the the do Straight that's this is their property line that's their property line that's this property line exactly but but on this side where there's no Wetland per se and just spreading the trees is what I'm asking for for consideration what all I can ask well to to his point I'm wondering something from the bank ask the bank working with the bank you may end up with getting what you want there's an area of land there that looks like it's outside the Wetland that is on the bank's property so in your delineation where it was like it was 110 111 112 and it was the the lot on the left is full Green in the little triangle Le and the one on the right is bare land and so what I'm asking for is that the The Little Triangle lot you have on the left to make that happen on the right I understand yeah understand but I'm saying understand what I just said though with respect to the banks land that that um so this this right here this area right here that's the banks and that's the view that you're talking about trees there that's no that's this area up here it could be some of it it could be some of it it could be more I think that if could uh get some in the way of the powers that's really what I'm asking for cuz I felt that so I can request one thing of the applicant based on this can you go back to the can we ask the applicant to provide us with that line in the field sted up so we can get a visual of what exactly he's talking about cuz you we'll get an angle of our view will change in the field but if you can we can ask them I think they'd be willing to do it to stake that line to the to the back of the pock lot of the bank to that corner of the bank so from this from the front corner of the lot to to the pavement in the back yeah then we'll exact we'll know what we're talking about we won't be guessing when we stand that thank you I like facts and and and anticipation on on you said you wanted trees not small trees what do you mean by ice water right I got to ask for what I want and the compromise we'll get what we get what is it what do you what do you what do you want is what I'm asking I I don't want to see it yeah and and so that's unrealistic so what do you what do you actually want that is realistic cuz it's impossible to plant a 20ft tree true it's just it's just not it's not realistic to happen I don't think that's for him to answer I think that's a good question but I think is they provide screen his correct me if I'm wrong I just want to make sure he understands that a 20ft tree is not something that's sure sure I understand that can be planted it's just I understand but we're negotiating so I'm not going to come in with I want like you know a foot tall or something and that to I totally understand I just want to make I just want to make sure everyone understand four little pencil size trees that you know hopefully in 20 years will become some I I thought what I heard you say in the beginning is that it's similar to the screening on that side so I thought that was a pretty specific if you if you can Pro provided on one side could it be a conversation on the other side absolutely that's exactly what I'm asking for and if you have to remove those trees on the other side putting them over here is fine with me too okay so I think at this the point we'll let the representatives bring the proposal to the applicant yeah to National Grid and then to New England power and then at the next meeting that the schedule for the continuance of the public hearing we'll have an answer from them and I think they'll have to discuss that during conservation as well anyways exactly they date for that they have not no cuz they haven't made application just yet so I wasn't trying to be funny or anything good just wanted to make sure get a hold of the abas the reason we thank you what was your name again Peter Peter thanks and did you have did you want to come up to the table bring that chair back talking to you Dr Peter talking to to Nathan this is just a little history of that substation uh name address I'm sorry Ruth Bon 17 Tas Street and air a little bit of history for that substation my grandfather came into town and looked at Channel and machine company and he wanted to buy it but the people would stand around without power for several hours a day so he spoke to New England electric and he said if you can provide me power I I'll make this into the nice machine shop and so they built that sub station and it's been inreasing increasing ever since and now we own the land in back of it across the across the road tracks from it there all thank you thank thanks is his name listed in the deed here so there's lots of old names lots of Old Town let's talk I'd like to talk about next steps for for instance uh two things site visit I I think it would I think that would be appropriate I think we should schedule a side visit um and I think we also need to talk about when we're going to continue the hearing would it be the very next meeting if will you do you think that you'll be ready with comments with responses to the comments of DPW Danny or U my my preference would be to have it at least get through conservation at least one meeting okay uh because they're the plans could change very easily change because of all the the Wetland replication how much Wetlands they're uh filling in because of the flood zone so I I want to make sure that they get to at least one meeting through conservation okay I'm sorry Mr you is that have we filed we have not we're we're targeting um August 30th deadline the submission deadline for uh meeting in September I don't know what the DAT is I know the filing deadline is August 30th that's what we're targeting for the noi but Joshua did you call the timing on the next coming back to us is that your responsibility yes we we would I mean to the extent that the Conservation Commission has comments or changes to the plan with respect to the wetlands I'm not sure that that would have much of a bearing on what this board I think has jurisdiction over which is primarily what's happening within the yard and the expanded yard but the expanding yard is going within the wetlands which may be impacted by their uh noi or at least what their view of how much is going with in that wellon and that's where I and that's also going within the flood zone so there's multiple impacts on that portion which I think would be best for at least getting through one meeting through conservation what's the approximate timing if we got on the first meeting just so you know um so the conservation meets in September on the 12th that is the Thursday after your meeting on September 10th so in order to go through conservation for one meeting you would have to continue this to your second meeting in September which is the 24th and the commission would meet that Thursday the 26th cuz we're at the same week a motion I think there's I want them the yep is that acceptable does that work and I'm sorry um you're the conservation agent for the town uh well I some of this is just is is the timing um uh and Company is looking to commence work before the end of the calendar year this is not a typical developer uh where they can just hire contractors and go there's a lot of process that needs to happen uh further design construction level design that needs to happen none of that can happen until we have the entitlements in hand so these comment and and and I understand where you're coming from but these comments were sent on August 2nd so you've had some time to the comment was there for a while you're talking about the DPW the no my comment and from conservation's comment that an noi needed to be submitted it's been there for now about 12 uh 11 12 days so it's been out there yeah uh okay we had to um they had to confirm the delineation out there last week okay so they they had the uh our Eco folks had a little bit of work to do before they could file so to September I'm sorry September 26th would be the next planning board meeting the 26th or 24th 24th was the planning board 2th 26th was the September 24th September 12th is's a meeting yep up th right so assuming yeah our meeting the next meeting would be September 24th that's the second meeting in September 12th would be the first Conservation Commission meeting September 12th about can we get we can do some vo well we can get we just need the reasonings we should be yeah okay which I'm going to provide them the ones that they need the reasonings for before the the oh yeah yeah so regarding the waivers the town planner will get you the documentation necessary for you to respond with the reasonings that we so that we when we get those responses then we'll be prepared we can do votes and vote on the waivers and move that forward what else need to be moved forward special permit the special permit um it's only the one it's only one which is for the height um and what do we need for that anything from them finding a vote we just need to go through the findings you know uh through the espresso permit criteria okay and you we'll have that for the 24th mhm okay and then the storm water we should so I I think you know once they've addressed the G given us response to comments I think at the 24th if not you know depending on how conservation goes we should be able to at least be at the point to vote on the waivers vote on the special permit and uh the storm water management permit would and possibly site plan okay that's good the waivers Mr chair uh we as part of the town's form there is a waiver there's a table Yeah and on the table it says that to please provide the reasonings on that as well yeah so we we thought we did um in Nar responses in the narrative in the narrative Plus in the actual table we provided responses I I'll double check that again and then I'll if you need something more just let us know okay so that's that's the next step we'll double check and get back to you that if we need more we may not yeah but just one way or the other point is that we to be ready to minimize any further Dom absolutely okay um in terms of the site visit what what's the the board's Thoughts with to scheduling that yeah we typically we've been doing them uh early on Thursday mornings like 8:00 uh is that is that doable for your team or like uh one of the Thursdays um so this is an electric substation so you would not be able to gain access within the yard uh but you you could go around the perimeter that's what we're looking in and I'm we can make that we can make that happen Thursday definitely get rep please morning so it would have to be next Thursday because I'd have to have already submitted the uh public notice for that uh the oh yeah right the legal not can I just ask I thought we were talking about kcom because we were trying to walk after all that but we we don't care about the walk the walk will just Happ whenever regardless of what cones yeah I mean we we can when we're out there we they're going to we're going to want to look at the the you know the property line to see what's what is possible St for the tree line and that's when I that's what Ken just asked for tricky to do by next Thursday that we won't be able to stake it by then well we can't not this Thursday we're the week from this Thursday right and I think he's saying that even that would be to be able to get it okay so what what's the next Thursday after that okay let's the 29th the 29th can I be that bold is that possible could you guys the 29th get that staked that should be difficult okay check with the team okay everybody else so we're looking at Thursday August 29th at 8:00 a.m. and these run one half an hour and I'm I'm I'm getting pretty strict about that for everyone's uh benefit respect so 8 to 8:30 um and we could just meet right at the entrance there right yeah we park at the bank how does one park to access this site there's plenty of parking tons of parking there I would say just park somewhere along here yeah that's you'll see that's plenty yeah I would park and I have connections in the cemetery this part yeah so I would park up here and then we can kind of walk this and now if those a butter show up that's it yeah well okay so park on bro all right yeah thank you are we good so we just need a Contin we just need I just need a motion for continuance so moved we need to I don't want to do it I'll do it then I I make a a motion that we continue the the public hearing to our uh for zero Bishop Street and zero Park Street New England power company for um Tuesday September 24th 2024 for I'll second that any further discussion hearing none Ken yes uh Julie yes Kathleen yes Nathan I chair says I thank you gentlemen okay thank you so the next item on our agenda is the project status update right yep well yeah and then we have a presentation for Alicia thank you everybody great um so Stratton Hill we are the applicant is will be continuing um but we'll be reading that into the record um at the next meeting but the uh we will be having a meeting with them the DPW myself and their team to go through the peer review comments the peer rreview will also be there um we have a meeting on at the DPW on the 28th to go through the comments and try to iron out a lot of those the the the comments that have been going kind of going back and forth especially the bigger ones that the DPW has been H having um so on the 28th we'll have a meeting with them to discuss that um 42 Park Street as you guys noticed it's starting to move along again there was a little bit of a lull period in there um but they've started to pick back up their intent is once they've gotten to the point where most of the building is is done and that they're going to be working on the inside I think then they're the site work will be commencing so that there's no you know trucks coming in and out of there while they're trying to get the um the rest of the parking lot and and the storm water system done um we have a zero Scully Road will be coming before us at the next meeting um that is the uh to small like 3,000 ft building um there it's a fire uh sprinkler installation um and monitoring building um so they'll be coming before us on the uh um 27th um I'm trying to think of what else was there oh uh the one Park Street which is uh the old santand we should be having a site plan application for that coming soon um myself and the DPW have a meeting or we're trying to set up a meeting with the applicant to discuss the site just because I don't know if everyone knows but there's going to be a redesign of the intersection at um Park Street and um uh Park in Maine um they're looking at that there there's uh some 25% plans that are out there uh right now and right now it's kind of scheduled um to 2029 sorry did you say 25 % plans yes 25% design plans but what's that techn so preliminary yeah this preliminary plans basically so the way it's it they stage them at 25 50 75 and then 95% PL so there's stages in which they design plans and they'll get more in depth the more and more they further they go um but the the earlier versions of which are the 25% plans are used for the application through the for the tip and and through the tip and to to get the project kind of moving along with Mass DOT and so that's kind of like where we're at right now um is that being driven by our DPW or by the state yes uh well or the state it's it's it's a state project it's well it's through the state but the DPW will be involved heavily in that um so there's a discussion that the the the DPW myself and the property owners will need to discuss about you know some of those entrances and some every and some relocation of Curbing and sidewalks and expansion of that um and then um trying to think if there was anything else coming up I think that's it for right now okay thank you thank you well I'm delighted to welcome Alicia hery to the table uh and the reason she's here is that I've asked her to be here because we of have a lot of conversations about how housing and the relationship to planning to zoning I mean I'm sorry housing to zoning and planning and I thought it'd be wise to hear from our resident expert in town hall on housing to talk about that relationship so uh welcome Alicia and the floor is yours thank you Jonathan and thanks guys I know I come in and bring you numbers and things like that but it's actually something that I've been thinking a lot about and that is the relationship between community housing economics and planning and you guys actually do have a lot of role for your direct community on that oh thanks I appreciate that um so this isn't this is a lot of it's going to be discussion but I'd like to bring numbers I think numbers often bring you home um so how do I turn the page uh with the with the center scroller oh okay there okay how do I get rid of the oh I can't get rid of this it down you can move it down to the bottom it you click on the black in the top in the middle you can pull it down ah there we go okay so the first point I want to make is that in the last 10 years um Boston the Metro Boston area not even just Massachusetts but the Metro Boston area has created 275,000 new jobs okay if you want to can you see it Jonathan yes I okay and but we've only created 108 ,000 homes and that means that we're really short on housing and what we're going to talk about today is how housing really affects our economy and and other things so according to Freddy Mack the United States is deficient of 3.8 million um housing units in the country so what is this doing well the Consumer Price Index 40 5% of that is direct is figured on housing and the shortage of housing so it's driving our inflation everybody thinks it's you know prices are going up and things like that but the housing issue is really driving our inflation right now and so that's why we're hearing from the state about the MBTA and all those kinds of things let me just there we go okay so these are the new housing numbers the next page is the new housing numbers for how we face your LMI LMI is um yes low to moderate income of people and I want you to take a reference of what it changed from 2024 from 2023 to 2024 it went up almost around 10% across the board yeah okay so that's an inflation number and inflation affects all of us it affects our whole economy it affects you know the viability of our society and so those I'm just trying to bring in people think about housing OMG it's a problem it's expensive you know all those things but it's actually a very key component to our whole society yeah and to our economy as well as our social structure absolutely okay so does anybody have any questions on this so on the low income so housing in the middle class and something I've been talking about for a while is the loss of the middle class and we're losing the middle class as we have a transfer of wealth um I got a question so we'll go back to the note on the bottom if you know mind what says low income so 50% Ami so the it says area medium income so the columns that you're giving us here um is at 50% low income is 50% Ami right but nowhere on this page if you told us what the Ami is in this area oh no no I haven't I'm sorry um and I don't know it off the top of my head but it's I can get that for you I'm sorry I don't have to be sorry I'm just just a thought that's all um well 50% so double these so if Ami was 150 just as an example well so take for one person Ami is4 ,000 yeah is 100% is 100% okay so you're basically saying double these numbers and you'll get to the Ami yes okay yes yes just for yeah right CU this 0% right yeah okay but there's actually a little bit of a formula involved in that that's just an approximate they actually kind of back into the numbers a little bit okay so um thank you in 2024 middle class in the United States is defined as oh wait let me change this for everybody is defined at 51,000 from a range of 51,5 58 to 15459 and that's the range of what constitute the middle class in the middle class is our Workforce it's most of us it is it's most of us and it's it's our Workforce it's our community then we have the there it's broken up into three sections the lowincome middle class and then the upper class and I'd haven't put in proportions of how this there are proportions out there I can certainly get it for people about how this chart works but we want to see people in that middle class um and and working to become Poss in the upper class too that's something that this country totally you know supports but to be a healthy society and what we've had learned multiple times when we have our conferences and things like that this town very much wants a diverse Community they talk about it all the time and it doesn't have to be necessarily just racially diverse they want an income diverse community and one of the things that we really found when we were doing the future of Housing and air last year is we started seeing the numbers that showed true gentrification okay so stable stable housing not only creates a stable place for health um education and the development of a strong middle class and the beginnings of wealth building okay so any questions on that people understand so the first in the United States yes I do actually so for the second bullet is this household gross income yes and then I just I don't know we probably don't have the number but do you I'd be curious about that range for the Boston Cambridge Quincy uh Metro cuz I think we're part of that Metro yes yes so it'll be Hider it's higher than that that it would be higher yes so those numbers are probably figured I can tell you but just just in general Massachusetts middle class is ranged on that um yeah I can get you that number I'm I for the Boston quiny area I didn't want to overwhelm so one of the things is in the next slide is about what's happening in air okay so this is the renters in air and this is the homeowners in air and what's interesting about this is much of our middle class is actually falling into the renter area absolutely okay and that's because as the homes have sold look at this they've sold and we saw great a lot of investment coming in at a much higher income cracket and that really shows you gentrification ation okay so as housing is selling you've got less and less owned by the lower incomes and more and renting isn't a horrible thing renting renting is it it's the starter place where if you have a stable housing unit and you can afford it it's the place where you start out where you can build some wealth where you can um start moving forward forward but the key points in that is that they have to it has to be stable housing and it has to be affordable it can't be rent burdened um anything that's rent burdened is when you're paying over 35% of your income in for your housing and right now that's actually extremely common Yes actually it's over 50% right it's like I don't know anyone who's only paying one3 yes yes you mean who rents rents rents or even a or even a mortgage morage or a mortgage yes it's insane and many are paying over 50% so this I I really feel this slide tells the story yes it does and I I agree and I also want to underline what you said earlier about what the people there want every town meeting I've attended every shet your presentation less than a year ago went to housing what do we hear over and over across the political Spectrum everyone says says I don't want to see air gentrified so that people like me can't afford to live here yes and you know what was very interesting and um when we did the VIS the preference housing preference where we had pictures of everything on the wall and people picked out people picked out more dense smaller housing overall time and time again and so and it was by far the most popular so they just want to see things that are affordable they can make their bills they can have their neighbors be like them that sort of thing so Alicia yes I I don't dispute your main point here showing the difference um showing where the extremes are in the graph but I think as you look at this graph you should be aware that the income range axis yes is a nonlinear distribution of data yes so that even though so these small as you get further in the lower values yes you have smaller values but that's because you're spreading it out or whoever did this graph is spreading it thinner just just understand that if these were equal distributions yes I'm I'm I'm still agreeing with the main point but that the lower end would be it would look taller well you know what's very interesting so yes it is linear um this is on the yes okay so this is on the um housing tool box which is on the MHP site Mass housing site Mass Housing Partnership site and if you go in there which I could pull it up right here but they will tell you exactly what the numbers are for each one of these I'm just saying the way it's represented it does thin out the the smaller numbers because they've used a nonlinear uh x-axis yes but they also are showing the percentages you see the percentages on the left right the percent yeah that percentage is a percentage of a smaller number data expert we got a data expert right here we have a data correct like if you add up these percentages you're looking at like six five I mean come close bottom five bars and and that is now looking more like 15 in% yes yes you can with a graph you can make anything look and that's what they've done they've stretched it but I'm not disagreeing with the main point that there's a distribution that is weighted towards the top end I agree with that I just think that the way this graph has been shown it it enhances that because they thinned out the small well but in other words if you the first category was like the fifth row where it said five less well from zero from Zer to 25,000 exactly they're in $25,000 solidate that whole thing together you get a better view of the it'd be more representative this comes right from the s i to say that when when I work with people so I work with people on both a housing rehab program and a rental assistance and I actually use these categories all day long in my office okay because I have people who are at $5,000 income that's right um coming into my office and I have people at $112,000 income coming into my office and and I do have the homeowners that are at these incomes okay they I put furnaces in their houses I put roofs on their houses because they own a house but they can't afford to do anything about it but what I do think this shows is as those houses sell they're drawing more and more to the high income earner you know earner that's buying them up well you can't qualify unless you have a high income you can't buy $800,000 house unless you have a qualified income it's mathematically unless you have a cash and that's even you know different yes and and I do have some other handouts that I'm going to um go so one of the things that the state has been doing because they're losing their Workforce sorry everyone they're losing the workforce and they have asked they put in the MBT planning MB what what's MBTA but Comm what the title of it it's the uh I can't remember either was a called the one before that before was NBTA was something else um yeah they Transit oriented Transit oriented yes yeah this is our picture of that and if you look down the density in that area oh sorry thank you you know I'm this one okay if you look there the density in this area which is rmta Zone it's the one mile radius around the MBTA zoning yes it's only 2.2 units per acre yeah a good point and what they're really looking for is 15 units per acre and because part of that zone is actually the train station as you can see right down in here it actually skews it higher we need it to be even higher than that if we're going to actually get to that 15 units in the zone so per AC that's the Zone in that's the zoning but based on the form based code um West Air Village and the downtown park because of the density allowed within those zones we now do meet that 15 it were well for the zoning but now we need to start doing the building correct correct yeah yes yes yes yes and and so you're going to make sure that there's everyone understands there's two different things that we're discuss we're saying there you began by saying that housing is more than housing because you talk about all the other knock on knock on effects and I just want to point out with this slide here that getting that density is not just a nice thing for housing Justice that is the way that you construct an active downtown the reason our downtown is dead is because of the lack of density in that area the only thing that's going to change that and turn that around is adequate foot traffic to support business and the only way you get the adequate foot traffic is by increasing the density so so I mentioned this as to say that yes housing is the number one consideration in housing justice but it's also related to the other dominant issues in our town economy and health and human I mean Health in you yep so when we have a rental assistance program that is really um very interesting we give for 12 grants a year we give $500 a month to families and we've had it in place now for over three years and the stories that I get from the families about how just changing their rent by $500 changes the whole dynamic of the household absolutely and it is remarkable and so so that goes to how do we stop the inflation how do we stop the high rents how do we stop that and you can go back to the economic you know let's start building units and that's what the state is talking to us about but as I'm doing this research over and over again they're not just talking about building they're really talking about oh sorry I didn't that's okay I thank you they're also talking you know increased density particularly around mass transit um increase available housing for moderate and Workforce and and in particular increase rental housing and what you do when you increase the the lower income housing in rental housing is you change that Bottom Rung of the ladder and once you take the pressure off that it really instead of the trickle down it's the push up okay it makes a really big difference andics doesn't work so the thing yes and so the thing that I'm just suggesting is as you look at these projects as you we really do need more rental housing in the lower end and that will make a big difference and more density and just if you keep that in mind you're actually changing not just the housing or the building you're changing the whole economy and you're also changing the health of families and you're changing when families are healthy and not stressed you also change the children going to the schools oh yeah you're changing all of those things and when the housing we're going to go back when the housing changes you change wait wait wait oh sorry you changed that 45% that that inflation number and that's so that's my big does anybody want to have any questions on that I got a hand for you oh I'm sorry I'm going to I have something but I'll let Nathan was there first and so this is here pass this around to every pass the whole thing around um just go all the way around sorry this is from um sorry this is from our two senators and this is a breakdown of some more numbers on what's happening in housing and if you see the annual household income needed to afford a two-bedroom rental home is $93,000 and $268 $93,000 268 so is that even possible well it's possible there's you know two working ex you know at 93 if you had $93,000 to buy a two-bedroom house to this for rent a two-bedroom house this is you know if you want to rent a house for $3500 a month about 3,000 that's what it cost to rent a house these days yeah yeah equates out to something like that um that's 35% right 10 * 3 is 30 3 6,000 would be 35% of 93 this NBTA Zone this is a great graphic a couple couple slides ago uh it says we have you when it get to 15 units per acre right that unit is a dwelling unit dwelling so it could be more than one bedroom yes um and there's 923 you know that's that's a 7x you know great that we're zone for it and I I understand that and and want to see more development uh in that zone particularly uh 7x that's 6,000 more residents maybe nine depending upon the size of a dwelling no but Nathan I've heard you say it's a goal it's a goal we want to go from 8,000 to 12,000 people right I've heard the goal I st no no no hold on hold on so so so no no that's cool but I I I want to say that even if it's you say wow 7x that's a lot yes and no seven times is a lot however when you I want you imagine your head you're driving and think about the different kinds of neighborhoods you go through and you realize that with different structures you can get the 7x pretty pretty darn fast yeah there's not enough lamp and and so and just that's not true to to to um this is from the the presentation that we had at the cptc the one that we did so at that presentation this was something that that they specifically talked about that yes when you look at the the law that they're putting forth and what should be built in these communities the ability like the 15 AC 15 units per acre within the one mile radius it is just a possibility of being built when you look at the numbers based on the property based on the values based on everything which they actually showed us in this presentation that they say you know let's say 3,000 units can be built right in one in this in their location in actuality it's going to probably be only 800 8900 units that actually get built based on the property value based on the property location the zoning requirement like the zoning of the the property just how size so yes when we think about it based on the letter of the law based on what it says 15 ACR 15 units per Acer it is a it's a it's a large number but in in actuality when you put the the law into the properties that exist on on on you know what we have it's not going to be anywhere near the the the intended amount I got a oh can I so if can we move this back to the goal solution slide well I wanted to use that I'll use we go back I got to ask a million dollar question yes and this is for Danny as well mhm and anyone else what tools does the planning board have to help move the town toward these goals what do we got we got now I know we have the we have the table of use so to I'm open it up um this is actually something that the the working group is actually been is is really focused on I would figure it's it's and and from my point of view our first First Step that we did at the last town meeting was the first big step big step the first punch to combat at density in in a in a way cuz now we're allowing duplexes by right and we are allowing multif family within the A1 and A2 Zone that is a huge change in the context of what properties are out there that could be changed to developed into a duplex into multif family it it increased I think that is our big attack on density and increasing our inventory to try to affect little a affordable units you flood the market with more inventory the more inventory there is lower that that first run yes the more inventory you have then your numbers aren't theoretically spiking up because there's not a fight for all those for the very few because you've increased Supply against exactly yeah okay you know so that's one way that we're combating it and I mean I think the other way we're combating it which is something that we'll get into next is also the inclusionary housing portion which is our way of how we provide more affordable big a affordable Shi units through um to the to the to the town so that we increase the ability for people who are low moderate income to have those units that are you know at a lower cost for rental or even buying so can I just um point out we were talking about how you know how many units get built and a year ago we had DMG on the table the deluxe over in gron had a gigantic 40b that I think was also going to be it's done it's St started they have started yeah I heard that it's done yeah and I had heard that they it's done okay it's still going through oh yeah okay good and then we've got that IBM property in um Littleton and we have our Noah property which is all affordable which is only 106 units if just those units came online yeah you would see it just would work out to be what how many is plus and my BM could be a th that's crazy over there b thing is massive yeah yeah that's I don't know if that's going to go that's yeah that that one's sounding like it's a little bit um to clarify your question what does the town have to do within the town's boundaries and could I even specify close into that MBTA Zone yeah could can you what what tools do we have so you see that I want I want to concentrate on what John then I'm going to be the negative see this first sentence no your your thing increase what go back to the increase density around on mass trans station now go to the chat go to the graph okay and I'll tell you why that's impossible just look at the chat no no the map the map so look at that okay you can't use any of that gray I know that's like two3 right there it's out of the picture all these house Lots one of them is occupied by people some are in this room okay are within that District it's not going to turn into multifamilies you you're down to a small density which is a basically form based code district correct so we can't get that push Beyond a tiny distance in downtown and that has to for that to work the concept of the not the overwhelming concept but what was the overwhelming context concept but not now I should say was it was going to be a mixed use there's going to be retail on the first floor and apartments above that could be wrong it may for us to get that combination we need a lot of parking for both type of uses so what we're really talking about here in this group and in the working group is Apartments we're not talking about mixed use no you're talking about most of our zoning is tied to mixed use that's the preferential that's the graphic that's shown that's the preferential language that's the whole work because of the concept the old concept that you put a lot of people into downtown they'll walk to the retail they'll do their shopping they do all that stuff they don't need a car the whole concept but when I look at the NBTA thing am I are they talking mixed juice there so our just quickly our form base code does allow just Apartments I know it does you know how many arguments I already had on that I know I know and and that is something that Charlie and I have already discussed well and and we're both in agreement that you don't have to do a commercial but yes I understand where you're coming from the the commercial portion of it because what you're asking for is you want the you want the retail commercial use there so that people are using it so it's walkable and everyone you know VI downtown mixed primary uses but in today's when you look at it in in today's snapshot in the time frame in that we're in people aren't really really opening retail businesses like that they're not the cost of of overhead and and you know you're not building new buildings going into new retail spaces you're going into a B level C Level because you want lower costs on those so a level which is what you would be considering this brand this is new you know commercial retail space is not in my opinion what we as a town need right now I think what we need a what we need is bring the people like Jonathan says bring the people build the apartments yeah and then downtown by itself by the fact of having the people down there having the foot traffic those buildings that are all downtown you're going to see the possibility of those owners saying oh well now I could sell to another developer who's going to clean this up and build another retail something something better or even upgrade all the buildings clean it up like that's when you you're going to have the property owners to have an incentive to sell I think or to upgrade or to upgrade I think right now there is no incentive for them to do that because there's not as much foot traffic real foot traffic right the G geography we're we're penalized by geography here correct so most of the zoning changes that we talk about I agree with Danny 100% um but I want to back on on the fact that we got the the big big First Step done but I can tell you that I went to meetings with other boards during that discussion and we went I went with Janet and we spoke to other boards and Danny was there and there were people at those other boards who were doing mathematical calculations telling us that our density in this town is already higher than all our neighboring towns and they're opposed to more density so we still don't have a Universal concept amongst the boards in town that density is the best solution is what I'm getting but but that's this is the argument about talking about what happens when you don't have housing for your population and what happens is inflation and what happens is um a a a a society that is not quite stable yeah no I agree with all what we're doing I wouldn't be doing it otherwise but I can tell you that there's a there's opposition just a touch on that sorry just just to touch on that the number the reasoning behind that is because air is such a small space geographically yeah com and there's already so many people but 49% of our of our town is open space mhm so you also need to put that into context so like yes we're when you look at density per you know per square square mile we're always going to be high because we're a smaller town but that doesn't necessarily mean just because we're higher up there that we're way more dense and way more out there than than any other town around us no there's been a lack of building for quite a long 40 50 years yeah great discussion it's this is fabulous and this is exactly why I invited you so that we could have this conversation and have these ideas out there I I just wanted to bring out this point we all know the movie uh Miracle on 34th Street and if you look at it one side of the story is it's about Santa Claus but there's another story hidden in there it's a story of this young girl and her single mom moving from an extraordinary apartment on 34th Street and then Joy the conclusion is they move into a single family residence in Suburbia MH and the reason I I bring this I'm watching this as a kid I'm going are they crazy I give my teeth to have an apartment in Manhattan like that my God I mean what do you but my point the propaganda in the United States since the end of the second world war is that the Fulfillment of our dream is a single family home and part of what we're up against is Decades of that attitude and and and and beginning and we're beginning a process of raising people's awareness of you know you might want to have neighbors and here's why and that maybe this model isn't for everybody maybe it's not even the best you know I'm talking about the single family ownership maybe that's not the answer and that we found now we have almost a century of well you know 80 years of evidence now that well that's a more complicated picture but I'm really grateful for you to to to get this on here and I think it makes I'm not trying to cut you off but this makes a great segue to the working group and just quickly on that just to touch on what you were saying right there is I don't know if everyone saw that video that I sent out that Jeff had sent me initially on on the future of development and and that's really what we need to start seeing you know that type of development is something that I think eventually we will get to I think over the years of planning we've learned at this point that single family homes isn't what is working for for for us and I think it's going to take a while to kind of get that brainwashed out of people's head where oh I need to live in a single family home I don't want an apartment I don't like that stigma but eventually I think we will get to the point where there's divers you know diversity in housing types is going to be a good thing well it is a good thing yeah it is a good thing but people will see people see it as a good thing but but that's do they live in a condo New York at the top oh I mean see that is a good thing one of the things I was looking at because I was really looking at I've been looking at the transfer of wealth and there's a lot of different reasons for that happening right now but the transfer of wealth how do you build the and and ultimately the loss of the middle class okay the little middle class is there's more people on the low income end and there's fewer people on the high inome end but people are being siphoned off from the middle class and ending up in the low income end and what we really want is a healthy middle class that has some um Financial stability we want it for everybody and how do you make it how do you set the table for that to happen for whoever and I think you create enough stable housing I'm no I'm not the oldest person in the room I'm looking at you again but I you know you used to be a this is going to sound like an old person statement but you went to school and you could pay for your apartment and you could pay and you could work part-time and you could you know you have plenty of money and have plenty of money because your apartment cost you know3 or $400 a month and now and there are other charts it took me a long time to figure out which ones to bring to you and which ones not because there's a lot more data out there and there's some really good data anybody who wants to come by and you know or I can send out emails on any of it too um but there's great data on this and I think that if we just change some of the way we think and I think this town has done a wonderful job of embracing this conversation too so Alicia thank you so much than for I I just had one comment that I wanted to this is out perhaps a planning board but for those of you that are involved on these working groups and stuff so this whole thing is anchored by the MBTA in the train station and so I take the commuter rail about 3 days a week and from Air to North Station that is an hour and 6 minutes and that's just like you get on that doesn't count door too time or anything and I'm curious if if working groups if the the town has thought about advocating for better schedules more reliable surfaces I think Julie shared um an article on the Boston Globe where it's like the Department of Transportation secretary lives in Shirley and doesn't take the train because of how inconvenient it is it's stunning and yes I just like when I moved to town we had multiple Express trains to choose from exactly and now we know we lost that with the pandm and so there's only one Express train schedule that you can choose from and if you work like a 9 to 5 it doesn't fit you get there too early yeah and so if you want to you know be in downtown Boston at 9:00 a.m. which is what I tried to do you you are you can't take that train because then you show up to work 45 minutes early after you've left your house at 6: a.m. right so I'm I if anybody at all is like a working group this is something that I I would definitely advocate for because I think it's it is an economic engine right like if if a developer can say Hey you know from Air that Express chain will will get you to downtown 9:00 a.m. 45 minutes which it does I it's magnificent it's just inconveniently time I'll send you some white papers on it that would lift the mvta out of the 1970s yeah so I I in relation to what you said no it's actually I wish Jonathan did raise this to me about the the the I wish that the collective response to the MBTA zoning instead of being we don't want to do it is instead say all the towns collaborated and one voice said to the state okay fine this is what we got to do here's what you got to do fix the damn trains yeah fix the trains because nothing else that the state could do would have as much powerful as powerful an impact on what we're talking about in the density patterns of our towns than fixing those darn trains yeah and one of the things things that that should be pushed is not everything is an economic decision as far as oh it costs too much some things in our society are what we do because it's the it's right it's it's the cost that needs to be happen to have a livable society and whether that's building some affordable units or whether that's fixing the mass transit all of those things are things that we got to say no these are priorities for us this is where we want to spend our money excellent thanks Alicia I just want to add I'm sorry but I am going to add it that's okay but as our representative on the community preservation board I just want to say I'm proud of our town for for voting in and doing community preservation funding right a matching with the state and having that abundance of funds available to do things and to watch over the past few years as the Housing Trust which you're mentioning and it's really helpful to people and our the things we voted on as a town and as a community have really made some huge impacts in I hope we can continue to support your work Alicia because it's awesome thanks for having me you guys thank you have a good evening and so I'll to tired jonath get tired this the working group kind of just anmm I won't get yeah I won't get too into it but and I'll just I gave you guys the the the draft the the cleaned up version that we have okay thank you that's what this yeah so um the working group has been working through uh re revamping our our inclusionary housing bylaw and um it's been completely from beginning to to end Rewritten whole it's um it's it no longer reads the way it it used to um we've changed the um the biggest thing we'll I'll talk about on this is and as you I it would be good for you guys to read about it cuz this will be coming back you guys for presentations for you know town meeting and and all that so this basically what we're doing here would be our current bylaw reads is as uh 20% and then you can lower it down to uh 1 and seven which is uh you know the based on the fact that it's it's above 10% the MBTA zoning comes into that whole issue of the uh they only you can only have up to 10% and then there's a feasibility study if you go any higher so we've been discussing about lowering that number to meet that 10% because over the seven years that this has been enacted the current one it hadn't really been used there's no no projects had triggered it and so what we did was we used one that was from Salsbury that MHP uses specifically as their template to go around to other towns and say this is how we would like our inclus inclusionary housing BW to be written and so what we did was we took that as a template made some changes some made some pretty big changes that I see for the good compared to what they had before and they meeting sbur meeting Salsbury um and so the biggest things we and we'll talk about them is the there's three different ways uh you can provide affordable house towards the affordable housing so basically you can provide on-site units so if you have between five or and 19 units you can provide on site you can payment in L or you can provide them offsite and so the three differences are so the on-site is you're just providing the affordable Ahi unit onsite in Lou is based on this would allow them to build all Market rate but for every market rate that they sell they'd make a payment that goes towards a contribution towards the affordable housing trust and there's a chart in there that kind of shows you what that cost would be and so it's on under 10.37 that kind of gives you kind of a breakdown is what that would fall under so it's $400,000 less than that it's $110,000 so for more than 400,000 but Le um up to 600,000 it's 2.5% of the sale price of the market rate unit and then as it goes up the the percentages goes up and so what this does kind of there's an incentive to kind of to allow the the developers to if they don't want to provide the affordable unit because they don't you know there's a lot of other steps that go with it they don't have to they can provide the payment in L and that percentage would go straight to the affordable housing trust and as that builds up they can they later on use it as an go to going out for an RFP to on a purchase on land and or work with Noah someone like we did with fitzburg road so this provides different mechanisms of providing affordable housing and not just specifically the you know um just providing only the one unit you know the units that were required because the way we had it written the payment in Li was like it was way 8 it was like 80% which is like 275,000 so no no developers like I don't want to why would I do that like and then also there was a there was kind of a way that we weren't triggering it because this project would only be triggered under ours if it was multif family right and the Way It Was Written was was that it would only be triggered if there was a multif family DW um project the way we have it written here is there's multiple ways to be for it to trigger and it's you could have it through a subdivision and it's it could be a regular site plan review project where there's multiple dwelling units but they're not technically multif family um It's a combination of the total amount of dwelling units on a property so if you have more than five units on a property even if they are single family homes like anrs there's you're triggered here and either you can provide the affordable unit or you can provide the payment in L and what'll happen is those those smaller developers that you know do a five lot subdivision or a five lot anr just single family homes they're not going to be burdened with having to provide that unit they can just do the payment and L and there it's like to most Developers that's that's a drop in the bucket to them you know just based on my experience and and what I've done in in this field like I when we when we were building houses and we knew that there was an affordable component we were like we're going to build that into the number we already know that that's coming in let's just do it it's easier we don't have to provide the affordable housing but then you have those other um developers that will provide the affordable housing unit so there's different this is going to provide different a avenues for different developers and it opens it up to more projects being triggered which will in in you know in theory trigger more affordable housing to be built because you'll either get the Shi unit onsite you'll get it offsite or you'll get the payment in L which then the affordable housing will be able to use to later on U do a bigger project so we're still kind of working through this um we have another meeting on the 19th with the working group to kind of go through uh you know some final edits and I think for town meeting we may be able to get this ready for it awesome outstanding take some time to read through it it's can I just pretty good can can yeah so just back up a second sure the I think the important part and I'm saying this a lot for Kathleen as well we're basically taking a whole section out of our owning complete removal of that inclusionary Housing section and replacing the whole section with a new whole new language but the two principles that you focused on were in the past we only even generated the the need for inclusionary housing if it was a multif family development right right so it never generated on subdivisions it never generated on I guess it would be Apartments would do it because that's multif family uh and so forth but we're trying to broaden that yeah so what you're saying basically is if a sub a regular subdivision comes in here with like eight Lots on this thing that's going to be more than five so they are in the spot they have to what if someone comes in with did you just say that if someone came in with four of that are you exempt if it's only four do you not not even have to pay correct so four is is nothing correct it's nothing so someone can come in with a small a small Builder can come in build a couple houses builds two duplexes he's okay is not going to get burdened by the things we still get some housing out of it but we won't be pushing into the affordable any combination of five yeah you're automatically included correct that's the real Innovation and the incentive in the little a form is that in that in that in that chart the higher your price is of that market rate the higher your payment in Li is so it almost gives them the incentive to try to keep it at a lower rate so they're not making as high of a payment that's a we hope we in theory it's something that we've we we talked about that I think in theory could would be a little bit more of an incentive awesome that is tremendous thank you Nathan any comments nothing about that okay so um the July 9th minutes everyone had a chance to got the edits to thank you heather um do I have a motion to approve I make a motion that we approve the July 9th 2024 uh minutes as amended by Jonathan CR seconded wait Jeff did provide comments you did yes he did oh as but did you everyone get to see them they were sent out to everybody yes I'd like to may I amend my motion yes like to amend my motion to reflect not only my but Jeff Till's edits as well seconded seconded thank you Ken hi Julie yes yes Nathan abstain and jonath the chair says I um motion to adjourn very good thank you thank you thank you everyone that was a great meeting