welcome everyone and uh welcome to Jin Berard our newest member all right the disclaimer today is Monday June 10th at 6m and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection and building committee this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor participation the zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the ver virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 375 41460 55 or calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly antonellis assistant Town manager at ATM a. us or 978 772 8220 extension 100 prior to the meeting so uh call the meeting to order at 6:03 p.m. Tim yes and um I would like to propose an amendment to the agenda um we have the minutes from April 10th I just forgot to put them on the list it's a very minor Amendment um any other amendments to the agenda no all right can I get a motion to accept the revise all in favor all right so that brings us to uh the approval of the minutes I think they should all they all went out to via email and then the paper copies are included in your packet in front of you so uh let's start with April 10th were there any questions on those not at the meeting so a motion yeah a motion I'll make a motion that we approve the April 10th minutes all in favor all pass all right um then the next one is um the minutes from May 15th I that the minutes from May 15 SL change yeah okay the attendance you got Dave then you got sorry what was that on the first line you have Dave brother being in attendance and the second line you have been being oh y all right thank you he was yes he was any I'll edits then I think the motion would be to approve the minutes as as revised rised I move that we approve the May 15 minutes as revised second all in favor all right um the third one is the meeting minutes from May 22nd and a shout out to Moren in um well to Dennis for doing April 10th but also to Moren in the town manager's office who has graciously agreed to do minutes from our Zoom reporing so any very detailed very improve the minut from got a second second all in favor Sarah says I pass all right thank you okay so [Music] then that brings us down to item number three which is updates on uh due diligence for the r Harvard Road and Bishop Road sites um I guess I'll I can start with the um BR Herbert when um Dan and I met with um Dr Renda and then also with two members of the school committee to just float the idea um of of the Bron Harvard Road Site just to get sort of a preliminary sense of their support for the idea and um I would I'll I'll take a stab at summarizing it I think they're very supportive of the idea of a senior center um they had some things for us to think about which we will look into and find out more information about um I think in general it would be fair to say that they support it is that good summary that's good yeah when you guys me when did you meet uh about an hour ago please did right before and did did Robert meet with the superintendent prior he had um were the school committee members from Air early one of each um there were two members from air and so I think the idea was just to talk to a smaller subset of people in a less formal way without triggering the open meeting law just to get sense of where to start and what to consider and what to think about so tell I have no idea I don't know why I'm sorry my question was who who were they I mean you know so it was Kevin and then Erica I don't know her last name is okay yeah yes it's um it looks like it's Sarah secondment so um I I think the in general um you know none of these are like it was not a hard no and so as long as it's not a hard no I think we can continue to move forward and continue to explore what the what the issues would be for each of those sites so that's that's encouraging um Dan did you want a report on the gate for the Bishop Road yeah okay Bishop Road site so this is near the brush dump so we had met previously it's midi nose um with the folks over in devans and they actually really want to move the gate for their purposes as well and so they still hadn't set up the meeting yet with us fisheries and wildlife because they they need to talk to them to get approval to move it all the way to that triangle and so there's I talked to them the other day they're still working to set that meeting up they're going to queue me in on it I I'll let them know um so that um it still is sort of moving progressing slowly um they also inquired about some signage help from the town of air up at the uh bishop and Park Street because the gate's going to move much further down so learn people Advanced of the of the gate being closed so so we're working together on that so not too much new to report on the gate but it's in progress um other stuff see um there was um yeah yeah if you want go on with the other things for yeah yeah um so some of the other things were uh I've reached out to um divisions of uh fisheries and wildlife the state division of fisheries and wildlife they're in charge of natural heritage and dangered species program just to talk about the priority habitat that's over the the area where we're looking to possibly construct and get a feeler there um just to get an you know an advanced sort of details that I've been give the committee about hey here's what we're here's what we should expect and not expect so I haven't had a full conversation with them yet I'm waiting to set that up um so that's kind of the big one there that you know we also mentioned the areas in an AC EC but that's an area of critical environmental concern and basically what that triggers is an environmental notification form and we went over this before but it's basically that the state has this sort of repository for projects that may have a significant environmental impacts so such as in an AC so a project going in there needs to go through this process and it gets published in the in um environmental monitor it's called and then public agencies members of the public anyone can com on a project to say hey I have an issue with this so including natural heritage and Dent species program so they're kind of the big player in it I don't foresee any other public agencies having a big deal with a project of this magnitude where it's located um so I think really it's talking to divisions of fisheries and while like Massachusetts level for the priority habitat is the the big one environmentally I mean I still don't expect there to be any major issues with it with that permit but um they're the ones we want to reach to First um is there anything else when you spoke to De on the followup on the gate they they had initially a concern with whether there was going to be any wet L required they have to do a the T just go to these guys yet that no we haven't we didn't talk any details about wetlands and nois no they kind of just Shane Malone and John Marell Shane Malone's DPW director John Mar Carell's director of engineering over at Mass so they communicated together about setting up this initial meeting fish and we didn't talk any design location one thing they did say they try to check before they got back to yeah and their preference is to move it down all the way to that triangle Yeah well yeah they want to open that area up with the the poer garden the trail yeah um just couple of questions what is the US fisheries and wildlife so that's um what is their concern or where what so so I don't have a map but they own are own they they manage the Oxo Wildlife National Wildlife Refuge and so that boundary actually Cuts right through I call me fearon or Bishop Road yeah between um between the existing gate and that triangle the boundary Cuts right through there so Mass development can't put the gate past that boundary with fish us Fisheries in Mar and on the on the state um fisheries and wildlife and the public com what is the public comment period look like like does that have to be available for their comment for two weeks or six months or it's a I think it's a 30-day com period that it gets posted for 30 days and then they uh then the Comm period ends and then basically after that the executive office of energy environmental Affairs for the state they're the ones who do the final sign off certificate so they review all the comments and say okay you're all set or they say you need to submit an environmental impact report which is a Next Level step never had to do that but those are the details of it the weeds of it did you talk to an gag see she contact locally or somebody else um I reached out to M Dean merold she's over at worked with her in several projects so yeah we see where I land oh and I just happened to be driving by and I saw the gate was closed last week or at the end of the preceding week and it would been flooding we know why Crossings no I was I was just I was just wondering the gate has been open almost all the time and I just noticed it I don't know I'm not sure why I'd have to ask I know Shane Malone he did indicate salamanders for a couple weeks usually in April they close it for that but I don't know specifically why Clos the other and then that conversation would clarify is based on where those migratory patters are like where the be moved to yeah I think that would be part of it yeah thank you yeah any other outstanding due diligence items I think that was all righty so I think that brings us to the draft program so we talked at length at one of our previous meetings and I apologize I didn't put um put that in the packet what Dan did was from comments that we received we we laid this out the same setup with the colors and as time goes on these colors will trans transform into to schematic design what this does it shows the size in relationship to the square footage so that you get a sense of you know I always like to emphasize that the the red or the light red is the program which is why we're building this thing and then the other ones are sports spaces and blue being bathrooms the light blue I think is Administration or Storage storage and I think ad is yellow is circulation is Wellness yeah the wellness we we do a slightly different color for for wellness it's a program element but it has kind of a different it's not completely open and this gives you an idea and I think the sare youare footage is about 14,4 78 that's that's gross that's gross net is net is around 11,800 and the the quote unquote attic space we end up with with Gable space has um items in it that are not CED in for footage it's it's just a raw space for it and our mechanical equipment rather than building a mechanical equipment on the occupied Flor which is a lot more expensive we put it up top and that space is not carried as a forare footage because it's not a code issue not a so this isn't part of the gross not part of the gr that's up the attic space is quite large um but if we're doing the stretch code the attic space has an Erv in it which is about 35 ft long and 8 ft wide and weighs about 5,000 lb and that's the energy recovery unit which is part of mass stretch code and that sits up in there and rather than buying space anywhere else just because we have the gables can just put it tell me about Erv again energy recovery unit part of the mass stretch energy code which I believe erors and um and it what it does just to give you a quick idea in the winter time warm air is expelled out of the building because it's publicly occupied spacing quite a bit of air goes out so we absorb that heat to a big disc that up the heat and as the disc turns the air that's coming in let's say it's 20° air is coming in it comes through that disc takes the the heat that stream sent out and puts it back into that air as it comes in so it saves energy it does the reverse in the summer the warmer air from um the cooler air and goes out is absorbed in the disc and as it turns around the fresh air coming in from outside picks up that cool this so that you are getting a maximum efficiency otherwise we're just dumping the air out whether it's warm not or and it it actually works very well oh I love the idea very sophisticated and it has just this is we're looking at using what's the ACR for air conditioning are the Min splits yeah they're I'll think of it anyhow we have a split systemat they're not really heat pumps they're for heat pumps yeah they're like that but that's not what it is I I'll come better prepar the building we looked at wilham had a large U you had the heat Recovery Unit there too yeah that big ding unit yeah the Erv the that's ITV is the big and then the makeup air unit but that's that's same thing it's all all the same system and then outside you would have seen um the condensing units um that are AC yeah there you go I can't and they're um they are um they're both we have a gas in the Erv we have a gas fir unit up there for for uh if if the air gets too cold uh we can add heat to it um and uh it's it's a very letters in my um and also I drove all the way to Boston and then I didn't I've been all over the place to um but it's it's the same system we've been using it ever since the energy issues came up maybe 20 years ago we be our Engineers are using the latest technology of that so there will be gas in this field natural gas so my question from um and for anyone that's online looking so we're looking at sort of a revised version of the draft program um with some additional blocks to show spatially how the spaces relate to each other so in the in the list um it's about 150 square ft smaller n square feet but I see we've taken out the conference room and added in the medical equipment so some of the numbers that kind of came down were some of the support rooms some of them were a little bit oversized so I brought the that's why that number is kind of changed there okay um but yes we added the me medical storage um oh the no that's what one issue is that we took we we have three classroom options art an art craft classroom and a one M offices yeah was that I think that was the other thing that I got from that was the director's office and three closed offices and then uh open space office to uh for three people or so and that's that's roughly that space I'll together all right and we took out the conference room because we have three classrooms and a conference room is not used very much and we have the game room with the billiard table so the game room and billiards area is it has all the card playing and and um puzzles and things so that the conference room it makes more sense for us utilize one of the classrooms if you're going to have a and you'll have the table there right yeah so um how deep do we want to go on this well so My Hope Is that is is that another one oh no these are different yeah so my hope is that as a committee um we took a look at the list of the first time and then asked our set of questions um and everyone got the written responses to those to those questions so my hope is that we can kind of approve this draft approve draft approv going forward so that you guys can go on to what your next step is does that seem like a reasonable conclusion or are there not SE very we want to kind of pin down the site first or we working just I mean by virtue of what the contract entails do we want to because I I mean you need to have a program for the site okay we we need to know the size of the building it's footprint so what happens is it it's not set in stone okay it it's very flexible but but if you if we don't know is it a 10,000 square foot building or a 15,000 square foot building and and and there's there's a chicken in the egg deal besides the site we have to also think about budget so once we kind of you know you know Zone in on the program uh knowing that everything can move around a bit um we can apply some numbers of that from our from my my my cost estimator is cost estimating things on a daily basis so we have a much more current number to work with but we can start applying a number of that then the site we need to know how it fits on the site so that gives us that and then the other issue about this too is that each site has something specific you know in terms of sub soil information ledge Wetlands maybe moving the retaining pond that's there um so we those will affect um some of the cost as aspects of it so they all kind of start coming together but for us um knowing how this drops on the site is the the program and once we have the program there's a program also a lot about parking amount of parking we need we need probably at least 100 spaces um and that is a big chunk of the site so the site will really be dictated by programing part but don't let me please go on I I don't want to I mean the first I mean I know that we've had informal discussions regarding the Bard room and whether or not we want two tables there whether or not they'll be fixed in place so B tables don't move that's right which was a concern and if you do have a Bard table one that won't work2 they don't I've done one and and got severely criticized multiple Cs on the projects that had one table so either you have so whether billiards tables go in the Billiards whether the billiard tables go in the game room or something else goes in the game room is probably further down the road but let's say for example specific to air we have a lovely billiard's Hall in town and we might lean towards not having one we might we not said in stone we might um is there something that at this stage you would suggest that we really consider as an alternative well for that space because it's a a fairly large square footage between the card and the game side part of it I I definitely love and want but you know thear table it's a decent amount we'll give you some philosophy it's again we we're not wed any different thing we have found um to give you an idea we the last maybe six projects have a pair of bilard here and they're in and they're kind of physically there's separation between where Bill play and where our tables what we've found is that it's it's not gender specific Wiley has a very active male female group that play builds um same with Walpole in fact Walpole what happened there is that they did a study and U the number one reason for people coming to the center is billers added two more tables you know I they did it after we did the project but we had enough room in it and and the gaining tables got moved around because it's was open plan they they mixed them around now in Leon Kentucky we did three tables there but we also were working with a 45,000 Foot Center so we ended up with with a very large area of game of gaming cards and what have you and a a media room which is kept we dealt with that for sound issues and then the like a bar like and um so it it it it's different from each Community but what's really interes and then in Worcester where we learned our lesson we designed it was a large Center there were about 30,000 sare feet back in 1998 I it was senior center of the year 2000 um we we had a room where we only had enough room for one table and it was it was very popular what happens is that vard dis played by two people generally and and it's a it's a calization thing and what happens is that you need the two tables to keep that energy level you don't have to have them but I don't recommend ping pong in this area it's crazy and we've done pingpong I think we we have ping pong tables in north and and they're they're folded up and I think we also have long though they're so busy Pi all that they guess for us then we in air would want to do some kind of survey of the f using the facility and get some relative sense of what the level of interest in various I mean car plane cribbage uh cornhole indoor cornhole you know all the rest of them that works the multipurpos too it's very very good area for that I was just wondering if there was any other if if there are other senior centers you've designed that let's say they've got squ feet is that uh room 900 900 if they're going thousand square feet bigger than us what are they adding are there individual rooms bigger or are they doing an additional room just as an option about they about that the only one that's probably bigger might be long though because it actually extends round down another no I meant like let's say instead of a an 11,000 foot building for your clients that have built 12 13 14,000 foot buildings are each of their individual rooms just a little bit bigger but they have the same set of rooms or any of them do they have an inherently different so like let's say I want to swap out the Bard room for a different kind of room what are other people well that's why I'm asking you guys for M the idea we have we have basically one very large classroom we divided into two they use that for everything from builing to Stained Glass work painting L shetes what happens in your community is that each Community seems to have a pi Piper of a particular skill that they bring in if you go to tweets fairy which we weren't The Architects for but I'm familiar with it they have a massive amount they a really topnotch person who teaches stained glass so stained glass got so popular that they they took over another classroom so what happens is the classrooms are there to be flexible so you have three of them when we call one and arts and crafts it could be anything but they all will have a sink and some cabinets in storage so you can you can move things around and be very flexible and and I think I mean my concern is that and again I'm not wed to the idea of not yeah but the billiard tables decreases that flexibility because they are immovable objects and nobody's going to grab an in foot slate fill your table and push it to the side oh yeah we had a move them recently about four inches a lot of fun so so the so the decision as to whether or not there are billi tables permanent Rel that's what I saying is in terms of the there's already enough flexible spaces if I were to consider a less flexible space like the billiard room but I didn't put billiards tables in it what else might I put in that space that's what's the game where you shoot the puck down and hit the yeah we put that in against my recommendation they put it in Walpole and they took it later thinking outside of even games that's what saying outside of a game room concept is there something else that larger centers who have more rooms than you're have finding just the way I use senior centers is for you know mostly like exercise line dancing you know and and I would see a a flexible Center as being able to accommodate two um exercise activities at the same time y you do that you have that and also understand the multi-purpose room also splits into the two it has a divider and what happens often is that often The Kitchen Side they do yoga those so you could speak line dancing do a lot we have this is I'm the one that put the my clients as right and and actually what's really interesting about bards there's there's traveling Billiards teams that travel from senior C they came with they look like the Hustler HUD or whatever they come in with their own little scks sticks in their boxes and and U we discovered that happening when we were involved with the with the um bulber in fact there's a newspaper article about tees that we're playing so what happens is that you may not find people right now saying oh I'm interested and Wellsley I don't there was any ladies that were very interested in it now it's a 50/50 split but what happened they gave me a a um survey at ball Poole about a year 18 months after it was done that the number one most active area was the Billard now we if we can get Paul Newman coming in to play Billard I think we're g to be doing well if you get them let me know because I haven't seen I don't want to dictate that the town of air has a really nice Villard follow what 15 20 tables in it in a b differ between having in the senior center well and that's I think that's part of what we'll have to take to public in but I don't want to believe no but it's a really good point there was an an attractive alternative if you said oh if you're thinking maybe about not doing that then more like long midle when we were one of the really difficult program elements was that they had a very strong Bridge group they wanted a ro where 50 people could play bridge and we're already at 30,000 square feet we had maxed out almost all our programs and they said well and they also wanted a gift shop which was I kill gift shops have never done well they do well in the old centers they don't do well in the centers and that's a huge problem I won't get into that um but what happened in in um long though is that they ended up we didn't give him a a dedicated Bri it was going to be 50 people was a really big room so what we did is that we have we have a the double classroom that's called out there one end of the classroom has a residential type teaching pitchen in it and that whole thing sets up for because it's so large we set that up for bridge and by the way the number of bridge people that come to play is about 25 50 so we would have spent a lot of money on a very big space so they ended up using I've been there when they had The Bridge Center it's a very flexible grou and that's the whole idea of those three classrooms is they don't really have a label we call One Arts and crft so you know you have't and the flooring in those is is a lolan type flooring that's cleanable in the in the one where the bridge is played because they have a number of classrooms that one has carpeting if I could just yeah go ahead David um 600 squ foot kitchen look how many meals you able to depends on the equipment I I could when I was in the Army we could put out 2,000 meals out of a tent with four with four burners I mean it's it depends on the equipment that you have with a 600 foot kitchen properly equipped I could probably do 1,500 Bean so that's going to be more than enough it's well the size of the kitchen isn't dictated by what you're producing it's dictated by the Board of Health have to have a sink you have to have a pot sink you have to have a dishwasher you have to have so 600 square foot commercial kitchen would be sufficient to serve 200 200 250 yeah we we actually depending on the equipment if you have the right equipment you could do 4 500 right I think he's got ours here at 600 so yeah so I guess you asking is it too much square footage or you yeah trying to get some sense of is 600 sufficient if it's you know if you can save 100 square feet there and cut down to 1500 Ms you know do you want to put that 100 square feet somewhere else those kinds of things there's a pantry involved in that too there's a lot of food storage um and and also you can help me since your food guy down there are we we preparing or your every day or every other day meals on site or are you um because it really makes a difference you have to if you're doing a lot you're doing all your meals from scratch on site um you really need to walk in refrigerator Katie and I and um and we've done lots of kitens like that but there 600 plus Fe um the kitchen in um in wilam is large that's almost 3,000 s foot Al purpose and um I think that kitchen could have been a little bit smaller we we were our clients often have some input in the kitchen either smaller or bigger but what you're saying here is the health department says three pot sinks a prep sink from for for for vegetables vegetables Etc um we we prefer the bu counter dishwasher it goes through a minute and a half to two minutes each time um slides along we have a a indoor for for dirty and an outdoor between so we split the kitchen so dirty is over here things over there um the Board of Health and then it's there's a lot of other board of health things that we do and you have the hood over and a lot of these centers almost everybody wants warming ovens and um we stack those and in fact both people are upset we only do one one and that the equipment is not cheap either it's probably 80 or 90 it's big deal I got a question M CH you're looking at this community to say okay to this program tonight that's your goal well draft program but I so if people are not comfortable with it obviously no but if if people aren't comfortable with it I'd want to know what the steps are that we need take to take to get comfortable with my concern is that this do we would we consider this to be like an Optimum these have all basically maximum size rooms that we would need we would not be looking to make any of these any bigger no I don't think any of these are size couple might be a little bit smaller which one well we have upstairs bathrooms with stalls small if this is done right we can get away with single user bathroom on second on the second floor the meet Co we we did that in wolverham and I I believe we could get away a little bit smaller not the Ada one with shower but there would be a male female individual youth bathroom on each on the second floor whereas the larger bathrooms so if you'd like to have the bathrooms without doors we need more space for that like you see at the airport if you go to Long B we have it but it it uses a lot more space we also I think in W have we have the uh the wave access for people who get into the B so there's a little bit of flexibility there come down and and like like if you're running an office you always like to have fresh flowers every week and then things get a little tight drop off the fresh flowers um the one thing there's some flexibility with stor stage but I can assure you we can never have enough storage and and we have in big size room for medical um what they did in wilam is they combined some of the multipurpose room storage with medical equipment and they have access to medical equipment um my preference for medical equipment is be associated with the service in um rather than somewhere in the middle of the building only because you know I'm coming in for extended toilet I don't want to see me caring about you're saying that what we don't have on here is that room that we were thinking about adding for the disabilities commission for their there went down there sorry all right you're calling in medical storage it was not on the original when we had the discussion we upgraded this okay well I think I think medical storage I think uh R I don't think handy like stroll Walkers and chairs and things like that I was thinking more like equipment pumps oxygen tanks no we're not we're not going to get that old number eight on the list doesn't appear to be here right that was taken out what was that the card so that came out that and then the equipment loaning medical equipment medical storage room it's a pretty good size room it's like 10 by 25 we getting back to the kitchen are we going to do a Walkin freezer and a Walkin refrigerator too so two you only need one you can you can if you set it up right free Freez a smaller unit in the back if we're going to do that 600 might on the small think put it outside the outside and attach it to the building that that's what I had the prison we had we had works well there concrete slab and we went out it's been up for 15 years it's never been a problem is is there a break point where you go from I saw you know we went to gr the other day sorry know which not here on kitchen equipment but I had built some commercial kitchen and they did not have a walk-in over there but they had a unit which i' had never seen before which was a three section unit was freezer refrigerator and the third section was what was the third section three section but it didn't need didn't need to have a condenser a walk was it not a walk if you're doing if you're if you're tring food maintaining food on site need be and you're doing a lot of we do reach what he's we do if you go to we have two doubles and a freezer and they just and they need he heal cars easy okay so the only other commercial kitchen I have experienced within a senior center setting had a residential fridge freezer combo a reachin freezer and a reachin refrigerator and that required the kitchen manager to go to the grocery store or go to the food supplier every other day every third day because you really can't buy the Commodities in any bulk and you have to kind of get what you're going to need for the next meal two which if you've got someone on staff with lots of hours and likes to do that great but then you're much more subject to what the that day's pricing is as well over long yeah there's one in longal it's a Walkin unit with a freezer in the back you know freezer smaller right when we saw an Andover they had two freezers I mean I don't know if you remember they had two freezers Andover North no no end no North and yeah and AE there's a Freez they're not cooking their own food there though are they no they're mostly they're no they w they no very limited they the U A lot of these centers work with the school department yeah and the school department SP and now if you go to Holio or you go to um long metal they both have pocket so so just to clarify so for our purposes it's the sense that in order to have the kind of food service that you would Envision the town of air kind of meeting well the needs of the people who are coming here etc etc that a commercial kitchen with a walk-in freezer would best allow you to best allow you to do that I mean I think that's come down to the budget I mean if it was in an Ideal World sure you'd have that I think you could make it work with two of each for a region okay I'll prer to to Dave on that but I think that's gonna come down to budget honestly I'm gonna pose a result conclusion that we settle on the 600 square fet but we don't know what the the layout it's going to be at this point so let's say we only need 400 square feet for equipment at the end of the day because we decideed we're going to have meals brought in or whatever but let's use the 600 square feet as a Baseline and then modify the design we go along so we ended up with a 10 by 12 storage room instead of a six you know a 500 foot kitchen with a 10 x 12 storage in the kitchen maybe we still use the 600 ft just settle on 600 what's the difference in square footage between the walkin and the re oh no oh well usually when we do the walkin they still have a reach it oh you have to for because otherwise everybody's going over to the walkin and try and get stuff out of it whereas you might have your current stuff in the reach in but the an idea overand we have two big double reachs normally I think in longm we have one reach you know I I don't know anything about this this area maybe you can tell by the question um but it uh I guess you're not addressing what I'm my my question is is is there a difference in in square footage that we need yes between having a Walkin and having a region and what is that difference depends how big your walk-in is you give you an idea the walkin in in a long metal is I think probably about 6 by eight with maybe a three by the same WID 6 feet freezer so it's they're modular you buy you tell them what size you want they make all the P put and um so you go into freezer refrigerator you can kind of walk around shelving and everything then there's another door that takes you to the freezer which is kept below freezing and it's cold that you don't go in very often really the longer [Music] term um and to give you an idea this this multi-purpose room is about the same size as long Metals M and the reason why long these two are about the same size long have 11,000 gy or bigger EV so but this multi-purpose room is a little bit smaller than Wilbert which is about that's why I have a bigger kitchen too K how many people you think I mean you have you fed in the last year or so on a big event and how many people do you anticipate with this once we get this build that you think you're going to come so right now I'm kind of limited by my existing space here but we seat between 18 and 24 daily in this space right here then when we have something like a free lunch maybe every other month or so we can spill over into this room Thanksgiving Christmas Mother's Day we're at 45 to 55 um so then if you look at anywhere between some senior centers tell me they have have a 20 to 30% growth some say they've had up to 60% in usage um in a new center so I mean I think it's reasonable to say that we would seat 100 for four five six times a year but on a daily yeah daily basis probably 35 so clear path for vets on devans they serve every Thursday they had to go to two meals two seedings because they had don't have enough Park so we were just throwing some numbers you think said 100 100 car parking lot okay is that going to be enough they don't have enough parking there but they serve 125 people every Thursday yep maybe some a little more maybe a little less and they have a galley kitchen they don't have a big open building they got a gley kitchen right and it's perfectly set up I mean it's awesome that very designed um so at least for the sake of seniors and parking parking spots of course have to be a little bit bigger than they are someplace else but just at the fireman's cookout we had 48 yeah 48 that came to the fireman's cookout on Friday and we had 14 people come via the B so it's not a one: one ratio of if this meal this multi-purpose room seats 150 we won't have 150 cars for um because there will be you know people that are coming on the band and lot people come together a spouse or a friend um our experience is when we built duckberry we had a parking lot for 70 um within a year we doubled the size to 140 so it just so so for the just to Circle back to the kitchen so we'll leave it at 600 square feet the question act will walk in freezer or remains to be determined um and kind of just as a general guideline the upper limit for the large meals is probably 100 maybe 100 I you know just from what I've observed I anticipate pretty good turnout but those I mean I wouldn't be surprised if we got to 125 I would think do it more and more frequently and realize food is good more than more people would show up Des for what 15 that would this has yeah for sit down meal it's for you can sit down for a lecture is 200 plus and if you don't by the way we're not doing it for today right right no agreed 10 years from now and it's really ripping so what I'm saying is I think even even the first year it's open I think we'll be hitting that 100 no problem 50 is I think a good spot so on the fitness room because we've seen a number of them and I know that some folks some of the directors I've spoken with the fitness room ends up being too small just because they were over subscribed and the fitness classes are very popular um in terms of having equipment in there versus having an open space for yoga and dancing and kind of exercise yeah we do the yoga outside of the equipment all like purposely now in our large settings we've done full wood floor exercise dance yoga and meditation but that's a big room we don't have that here but we do have a multipurpose when but when you say Fitness here you're you're talking about a room with equipment weight resistance and um and and and although we're not in the equipment here we usually recommend a pneumatic system you don't have to remember what we you do just tell what we do and but that room right now Fitness is just getting rolling and over it was it's a slow start as people get comfortable and realize Fitness training and weight training resistance is really important fix up so I noticed in the May 15th version um we had 420 square feet and you guys had said even at that last me that might be a little small but now we've gone to 800 square feet so that's what we again I see the onetoone swap for from the conference room to the medical equipment room where did those 400 s feet come from if we basically the same it was too small before no I know take it out of it that's the May 15th version I just the two next to each other it's like uh I think it's because my Administration we had might have been broken down more offices Administration but also I okay so you made Administration smaller so well because I broke everything started breaking everything down I think 750 was a little bit too much yeah I remember um let see what else there might be a few so it says 750 now yeah I'm just wondering where the extra where we oh the the group one thing is the group toilets went from 1,100 to 70 to 750 okay so that's where it went so the bathroom got the bathrooms also got smaller in fact we can I think on the second floor gain another 150 I hate the sound sexist but usually women go to bathroom in pears well we so I wouldn't if we were going to hit the bathrooms I wouldn't leave the women's bathroom with two stalls and maybe make the one required by law we have to double the ladies toilets versus men the urinal makes up a lot for that yes the ladies get a lot more to um Katie can I ask in terms of the fit do you have any sense at all of the kind of equipment that might be used frequently or not or in terms I have to reach back into the depths of my of my knowledge I used to help design those for retirement communities way back in the day like 20 years ago but yeah there's I'm sure I'm sure so I mean I I think some of your basic equipment treadmills bikes life cycle allows you to pull off the seat wheelchair yeah I'm just wondering how many like how many treadmills exor Cycles uh recumbent bicycles are you anticipating in that that is we haven't laid it out yet it' be very similar to um we have an expert does that us he does these facilities I mean that's another thing I think getting some sense of what the public here would want to see in the room and how much use it would get um I mean I've seen again I've seen some that are very well you know the slot was the fitness room just wasn't big enough for everything that they're trying to offer others feels like Fitness room has some stuff in it but it's not really being used frequently well what you're going to find out one thing whatever you think is going to work often gets changes over time but what we find is treadmills are not treadmills are useful they're somewhat dangerous for some elderly that we have to be careful about those the rep recumbent bikes are really very popular um uh weight you know resistant weight training is really important um especially if you're exercise um a lot of it what what is happening I know it happens in um in longm we have a they have a person there who works with people with with PT issues or you know they recommend it because your shoulders you got to do something they work they're professional and I think in one place the Y is very involv in fact the Y was the one that picked out all these equ I think for for and it's run by the and they sta it one of the things we ran into there which was problematic was that the why wanted to use it after which complicated a little bit but those are there's a lot of different things as this whole thing progresses I think all of us will will begin drilling down really how all the I know that when Fitness um sometimes you start out slowly sometimes they go fill up quickly but Fitness has become a really really important item 40 years ago we didn't nobody even discussed this in a senior Cent it wasn't even on Horizon Lind dancing there today one of the first things that people ask about senior Cent those are things and I think you're right I think once it catches on sometimes they they feel a little small I think we're pretty good here let's check it against bam I'm pretty sure that's bam was a pretty good size had eight machines yes I have the I have the picture I just pictures while I was there that one had three treadmills three ellipticals it's only like one person two recumbent bike yeah it has it just open it takes a while you can't open it with full programming it's really hard to get all of that all lined up to start on day one we have to roll it out hold a hotel so so for our purposes the fitness what what we're referring to here is the fitness room is would have would have the would have the treadmills the equipment that the the yoga the stretching the line dancing that all those things would occur in the multi-purpose room perhaps or in the classroom divided yeah okay so the question becomes how many pieces of equipment do we think we'll need to fill up you know follow we'll give you that we'll work with you and then we'll we can sort it out we lay it out for you so that's 420 right that the same number no they doubled it that's why I was asking why you wanted to know where like group toilets that came down yeah we 20 20 yeah now it's 28 by 2 or something like that well if we could do um walking as Kati wishes that we don't need I mean you know well you do need but I also think that I mean the treadmills I've been on have been pretty accous they I don't know they've gotten the treadmills today I I've been on you kind of think about something in you're off the back side of it very dangerous the new ones now have a lot more railing systems around them um they have you can actually have a thing hook to your belt if you slide down too far down the back of the Shelf something there's a lot of safety teachers okay well the lawyers have [Laughter] helped fix yeah well that's talking about old I an old person now you turned 60 that makes me old oh you're not nearly old no you're not you're not old old enough to make these decisions not old enough to to make the mistakes my kids underneath it but you should also absorb this you know I'd love to get go back you know feed Katie with your thoughts and you can send it into us we'll look at it we'll make our comments on it and I I know that I've harped on this a lot some people maybe already done this I really think you should go see a couple cers like blo and wilam and long are kind of nearish by L long almost right next each so you can kill two there one big Stone um and they're both good to see because they're both brand new um and they're both I think philosophically quite different you may like some stuff in one and some and then wam is literally just opened and they're just getting going well we went to wilam did you guys go twice or once I went to Wilber once I went to North Ander twice so um in terms of it so we through with Fitness um the like the lounge Library you have at 500 square feet how many people you envision that being kind of suitable for 10 to 15 maybe it's usually broken in two parts what happens the way our f if you will um we come into the to the reception area generally the cafe area is there and it's noisy lots of energy then there's there's movement without a hallway moves into an area that's a little bit farther away and quier and we we often have a double-sided fireplace with books on one side seating on one side it's a little noiser and then around that fireplace is a much more quieter space where I know in in polio there's an inting group that meets every morning the n in that area uh there's a a little book group so there's it goes from noisy not so noisy but quiet and for a lot of Elders quiet is important because we often can't you get a lot of high frequency background noise it's hard to hear so when you're talking to a friend you end up shouting when you get in the library or in the in between space it's it's a fation so that's kind of the idea of that and it's very similar to um wilam very similar to long metal and the same with clearion what the North and if you went to Wellsley they have a single fireplace with a with a big divider that that separates at that place the CAF on that side libraries but that configuration of the site too that's why the site is really important big is that place in wsy how big is that it's um well we can only Park 54 cars Wellsley we had to buy another lot for 1.2 million to get in cars in there um that Welsley is about 14,000 sare ft and it's tight I mean it's parking is is a disaster but it's what they have we often have to work you go to we actually when we did North Andover they had one block that was being given to them by a developer and for some reason they thought they could get 80 or 90 cars and a 15,000 foot Senor Center on this little tiny lot we had to buy the next lot over when I say we tax said buy but actually in reality the developer who is a major developer lives in town used to be on the planning board I think he paid that to by the time they got done with a million for two blocks we tore that both houses that were on it and built the new center most difficult thing contract I thought it was The Architects still the most oh they're ass oh excuse me they're J so what is the sense of the Comm come on let's make a decision I mean well it's not the end of the world I mean if you feel like you've got a couple of comments down the road it's nothing but a line on a piece of paper it's not set what's really going to help you guys is the budget we'll work up what if we work with this or we adjust it slightly we'll apply a budget to this early on reality sets in quick and and um and the budget will be both it will it will include both hard construction cost and related Soft C bidding it um we bid now online so it's a lot cheaper in the old days you us to costed 15 $20,000 to the job now we do it electronically it's probably three or 4,000 do you have um oh the it room yeah it's going to be in theace so the wiring closet those kinds of things would be up in the attic yeah because it's free space mhm free nothing's free no I know that trying to explain that to people yeah it's and by the way we have a lot of what we call in the Attic the upper level there we have um what do we call it all the you know ceiling Towes or we have oh attic stock yeah attic stock we put all the attic stock up which is Roofing bricks you know everything we have extra of everything 10% 5% yeah about 5% actually it's often sometimes A lot's left over that's good but hopefully it it's you know like we have like maybe four cases of sealing time we'll have fair amount of lolium yeah and seamless V flooring the patio bricks they're we recommend using these recycled tire bricks which are softer you we have those and this tra is assuming a two-story structure yeah that reduces our footprint considerably in fact all the sites we looked at we really don't want to be much bigger than 10,000 there parking circulation in outdoor and you know actually I think both the um one over by devans and the Harvard Bron one both have really interesting surrounding spaces people like walking you know we should have some kind of access to the playing fields up above because it's like walking the golf place you you to walk the perimeter of those in fact I know a lot of schools around us um in the evenings and on the weekend there's people walking the track all the time and um and the nice nice thing is you go watch games too I like so will look at so we have a square footage on the structure then we will choose a site you will tell us how to configure the building on the site yes and then the issue around Landscaping patios rear entrances we'll have that all included in that will occur kind of as the last later in the process well it starts showing up right away orientation is really important north south east west um although it sounds we happen to like to have the patio and outdoor spaces as much as possible on the South Side you know we're so we have to do all that we figured that all out but am I incorrect in saying that uh in terms of your work you do the landscape archit yeah you do it all that's all part of that well it it is in the final design it's not this contct but it's in the the long-term contract we will show you it will be not in this contract no no I answer all right well this contract we're going to lay out your parking we're going to have you know Islands the parking we'll have around the center that's going to be planted we're just not picking up planting but we'll give out little spaces and then also the patio is really important and what we what we've discovered in the last maybe four projects is that we've discovered it's very popular when we have the cafe Associated right away with the reception area with an access out to an outdoor sitting area people will often come grab a cup of coffee and go out sit down with a friend outside in a shaded area or they'll if it's not good weather they'll be in the ca area before an event that you there some people just come and say I'll meet you for coffee before I go somewhere else so it really becomes a social droin around food so um are are we ready to motion to accept this as a a draft does anybody else need more if someone needs more time we can certainly take more time but if everybody is comfortable with this as as a the draft not that in stone but the draft that they can move forward with then I think we should make a motion so when we improve the draft um size and whatnot you're going to turn that into the concept plan slow plan what and all the colors will match up and uh eventually may not in our may not be in our contract but we will probably do some renderings for you and and um some interior looks because today now we work in Revit anything that we any plan we do is a model it's threedimensional in the old days it was one two Dimension he did another two Dimension then he made it look this grows up as one entity when AI finally arrive I'm going to push a button to it that means we won't need you anymore I know no I get paid more because I know how to do it um but what what Dan and uh and I will do is is lay this thing out and it'll bring us to the site next right the sites are really the next thing I want to get to so talking more about the sites second most the second thing on our agenda just one well just clarify again um when you're bidding the project we're bidding on the grow square footage yes no we're not including the grow square footage in the Attic no it's all part of the space in in this calculation from the net to the gross basically going to be hallways and open some open spots could identified of the walls that kind of stuff you basically you know some chases Chas that that net to gross will drop down to around 12 to 14% as we tighten up the plan okay and what it'll do is it'll give you more space that you use as program and administration and storage then wanding down hallways we've done a lot of anal is of really relatively new senent which have a lot of hallways and a hallways can use up 24% of the building and you're paying $600 sare foot for that it doesn't make sense so our our plans tend to be a lot more open thank you so I move that we uh accept this dra plan as presented tonight by cat's architecture as um the programming the direction or whatever initial the initial draft the layout initial layout of our new Senior Center second second all in favor I says I do already anybody opposed no all right oh I was going to be you don't get the no know Wonderful we leave we'll leave these with you all right so next is the discussion of the sites and the site BR thank you to everybody who filled those out and Dennis for adding yours um this evening did everybody have a chance to look over and I I reincluded the um criteria at the Senor packet tonight these are all the sites this is the the three sites so there's one for each and then will you send me an electronic copy of each of those so I can post you want to I sent you an email the PDFs are they small enough you so you should be able to for it over to okay I just want to get them posted for the S I don't right now so there's three three sets on each side for the three different that's the approxim where so the Playfield if you're looking at the this is where the plate field yeah I'm just surrounding the plate field don't show that if you show that to somebody else other than this group it's going to be pretty confusing because the property line is streight that's our job complicated so you can answer it absolutely approxim is this area this right now and the school is over here okay and this is that not the parking lot where the where Park to go to the battle continues on GIS it's right on the ra tra splits okay so where are we in here so um going that Gate entrance by the BR right here G so this is currently kind of Trail this is where a little bther and so these oh so the areas where this where these this is potentially the possible area for parking these are not set of stone this is just kind of a rough estimate of a 10,000 sare foot yes that's the footprint for 10,000 it might be might be we aware the fact that it's two stories the brush be like at the gate that's what this little isce roof Foundation tce the slab and and U if you're only if you're 10,000 or smaller want to go and for seniors very yeah this one Brook yeah because ping would be much the do aseptic there water two sep conversations going can we have one conversation they're over here talking about one thing and you guys are talking about something else to like we should have both of them but could we have one just okay manad oh I'm sorry I didn't mean that I had to lead it I just talking about utilities which is very important so which which side are we talking about ratings for so yeah all rated so it seemed just kind of summarize where my thinking is just looking at these ratings I think everybody rated Bishop Road one everybody not everybody but the preponderance of people yes well I got everybody I I everybody no car were Carolyn used the different the different form so you had oh you had oh I didn't realize that that was a different form Carolyn had the first form yeah so you had Brook Street the smaller one here you're number one rated sorry okay whatever yeah oh I didn't realize that I'm sorry there was just that one that was I'm the outlier matter okay some concern about stre specifically that made it not well so everybody had the chance to rate it um Bishop Road did come out as the highest rated followed by the school site followed by Street and it was unanimous in that order aside from Carolyn who yours were close but you had yours the opposite way with your number one and your number two choice they were only one point apart so um so I guess the the thing I'd like to do tonight is to have a little bit more of an in-depth discussion about the fact involved with each one of those and then see if we're interested in eliminating one of these this evening Dan do you want to talk a little bit about those are or this or that Dan whoever wants to let he's been digging the dirt I've been hiding over here no yeah I mean I yeah I went through this you want me to talk about my scores and sure yeah I mean location image 115 Washington Street I had that you know a little higher that's a good location near the schools um on two collector roads pretty much BR harbard Street Bishop's a little off the beaten path I didn't put it all the way to negative degree it's you know it's actually a good spot being near the Nashville River and Brook Street I just kind of kept that in the middle as a zero it's sort of near downtown right next to DPW next to some residents so I didn't have any anything there um lot area expansion potential I think you know 115 Washington Street probably had the most potential Bishop Road you get the brush dump and you get the triangle parcel next to it and Brook Street's already tight ownership obviously uh bishop and Brook Street I had highest 115 Washington there's obviously the hurdles there with the uh that being in the school committees control existing structures um I left those off all of them I put at zeros there's really no structures there hazardous materials I put that all as zeros you know there's nothing to our knowledge um so I kind of kept those even access and traffic I had5 Washington is the the highest rank there and Bishop slightly below it with Brook Street as as the lowest um uh utilities 115 Washington pretty high but there's no sewer otherwise you pretty much have every utility you need Bishop obviously not good in that category and um and 25 BR streets has every utility we need and actually they're probably in the way uh topography 115 Washington I left it at zero that you know some slope issues there um Bishop I I had that highly rated it's a pretty good site for moving soils around um 25 Brook I had that pretty low you know it's got that big oop of ledge there um which would be a lot to feel it hydrology um I did have let's see Bishop as the highest there I think that kind of tied in with geology soils it had kind of the best soils there's no FEMA flood issues you know Bishop uh or um uh no 25 Brook Street it's it's May maybe in the 500e flood area it's close um and the other ones were okay see geology soils so that kind of goes back to to the ledge so 115 Washington and Brook Street I I gave worser than Bishop views and orientation um I gave 115 washing and Bishop I scored them the same as a one but 25 Brook Street I I put that down a little bit negative one because you know we're next to the residence but tight against DPW it's doesn't really give you that offering being able to walk around and get a nice natural View and Zoning I didn't I kept those all even didn't really see an issue with the zoning up there but so that's how and I landed like most everyone else did with Bishop being the number one 15 Washington 2 25 book Street three uh to me did seem after looking at everyone's scor it seems that 25 Brook Street's kind of a pretty looks almost like a back burner site to me now it looks like Bishop in 115 Washington wants to pursue that as that I'll make a motion that we eliminate 25 Brick Street the conversation everybody already did okay we don't need a motion I would second any discussion any discussion any reason to keep it all right I'll in favor says I all right wonderful we're down to I would make well comments about what Dan was saying the one thing that worries me financially for this project because of the cost is utilities it could be it it could be the number that firsts Bishop I'm not I'm not favoring anything right now but but we wilam Town Hall of wam was on sep and they that sep was not going to work for us it was not sized for the new senior Cent and we have bought wet and the water table was down about 30 36 in we were going to have a real big problem with so the town decided that they were going to run a sewer line down to town hall and then we would connect to a pumping tape that is adjacent and Town Hall would tie into the same tank and we would pump to wherever it was going we could not afford that the town because they they they kind of said well it's Town Hall needs to be on it's been on their subject for 40 years and they felt like they had to upgrade it or they were going to do something so they decided to fund that fairly ly about mile and a half of three plus all the pumping site so it was it was a big number and we we couldn't fit it I'm sorry just for the purposes of of eliminating Brook Street and I I certainly agree with that decision um how I think it would be helpful for the committee if the meeting minutes would reflect why Brook Street that is I don't know if we were veros other than the fact that it scored lowest which is certainly true was an independent score by everybody so it's important you follow the scorecards yeah so that this these these scoring sheets would be included in as reference materials they're actually on the website I think I see your point we're we're all agreeing that when we rated it across the site criteria it rated the lowest and the Architecture Firm was not even able to place the building on that so therefore that therefore we're voting to remove it from consideration okay back yeah I mean to your point about you know you couldn't afford the utilities at at one point it you know it seems to me that um not all of these criteria are of equal importance and uh utilities being you know High among the importance anthropology you know these things that I I I probably really can't judge very but you know they may rear their their heads at some point in in the process so I um you know my my point is that I think these numbers alone don't tell enough of the story that we really need to know more about the utilities their bus in particular and that you know we might we might be forced to change our minds well that's true that that that could very well happen doesn't have for to change your minds to Brook Street no two probably to whatever you pick okay because to give you an idea of water I think one of the sites two of the sites have water right Bishop I mean um Washington yeah and Brook have water if we don't have water that becomes a public water and that's $100,000 well I can drill a well in my backyard for 10 or 12,000 check the water and it's drinkable but for a public well it's a whole set of requirements that need to be met I so the water the water is not that far from f Road it's right down the street I mean I don't think how much it would cost just I know well maybe that I'm just saying that water and sewer electricity is is is as as we move forward would it be possible to get just sort of a rough cost estimate for the utilities particularly at Bishop so that's what I was planning to do kind of look at you know where the nearest water sewer are use our latest Mass UT weighted bid prices for public bidding and and kind of put together a rough real rough estimate for water and sewer especially I'm actually I'm meeting with National Grid on a different project meeting with their overhead electric um engineer so I'm going to kind of get see if I can get feelers from him and if he can help me out on that end because you know you're going to have to bring in power any other utilities I don't think there's gas Tri no oh so it's by the triangle everything's at that triang yeah yeah because it's kind of OD here yeah and even Water and Sewer devans has water and sewer the triangle and we have water and sewer over by the railroad tracks way to go I wanted to make just one quick comment this is a perfect example of why this process is so difficult when we took on the task of trying to find a piece of land which we've done for like three years trying to do this we started with you know let's find something downtown let's find something over here we find no private land we've worked our way through the public land so no matter what we do we're going to have a complication with the land as long as it's public land Town own land it's gonna have an issue because there's no perfect land for me I think I'm trying to keep my eye on the prize and that that is and I certainly understand that the utilities would be expensive and they're going to be an integral part of what you know right at this point whether it be Washington Street or Bishop Road but it's I mean for me the larger consideration is where will people want to go where during their daily drive if they're coming home from the grocery store where are they likely to stop in or if they're on their way to town hall or doing their errands or you know whatever the case may be that is the least the less expensive utilities might put us in a position where it inhibits future growth and I think that's the the balance that we're trying to get to is when we take a look at our final two sites we would be weighing the orientation that you're going to come up with against the utilities against the location of the site I mean ownership is the same the school the Bron Harvard Road Site has potential to have ledge that's something we need to look into as well so we have to do a little digging so to speak got that so what would be what would be the next step so you estimating utilities is you know that's what you call desktop but it's a desktop exercise what is the next step as far as investigating um something beyond that and are we ready to take the next step is it we got to pick a s we can dig you can go out there with the back and dig let's say we have two sites for argument sake you can go out and dig a couple with de holes see what's going on where the water table is um when you say we he test we're talking about having somebody take a look at the water table Yeah GE water we car some money for the geot can that yeah we'll have the Geotech and and what they we need's got he may have be able to do you also do you have a soil certified soils we don't have that we don't have like the certified soils yeah because they can look at the soil evaluator yeah that's an important part of it for for water and wet you know they can look at it they know where high water was and um and also I think we'll find the water table couple of sites in each site you know it's dry like in wam water table was at 36 in uh it was close we built that side up as part of buil it up 24 30 in um and we did the same thing in Long they actually was out adjacent to a playing field and they put in drain to that all W so just but you run into these things and and I would not get dwelling on too much what we need to do is let's get Dan give us his off the cup numbers for for getting some utility to these sites and as far as gas go propane is it's more expensive item but propane has been used we used that a little natural gas um but but but what we'll do is let let's say for argument sake I'm not picking it we have two sites we just voted we have we have two so now what we might want to do is set up a time with Dan and his grou to dig a couple holes and maybe then or maybe not we may want to have probably if we can dig a couple holes we can get a good idea yeah and you do have records there's no other buildings have been built on these sites that we know of it's always exciting we need discover something yeah and I think record showed that as the which one there was an old record on the USGS and it show that location is looking at but we are concerned about some contamination at the brush site is there some there is um well more Army Air Force Base does have p p contamination but you know that would be down in the water and we'll be servicing water public water supply so you know if some of that has migrated down I don't know yeah as long as we're not doing our own well that's great yeah you can't do a well over there is that part the no the shley landfill is that part of no this is outside that control area yeah so this has actually been okay if you had to but an odd question put tonight if we work on the DPW bu do we have access to Construction material soil material for instance he said he had to do a what did you material that we can excavate on site and use to fill a level of gr alarm free potentially on the same s possibly use a borrow yeah from somewhere else in the so we could potentially have another cost savings on the construction side of from the land yeah because the other site there's no way everything's going to be brought in yeah yeah get rid of it bring it back do we when do we do we want to look at now or at what point in I guess one of the things that you know this architectural firm and all the other said is you know visibility is important in traffic and having accessible for the seniors and easily driveable critical um in terms of Bishop Road in or in Gart Harvard you know which where does the advantage lie in those in terms of in terms of just traffic or ease of access for the for the population we TR location image is first on your list when I looked at when we when we did the contract cat did Catlin estimate how many sites did they were going to have potentially drop a building on any value you didn't you just did do what I'm saying is you would have had you would have had you would have probably gone up to like five i' say something well a couple centers we've done 12 never picked one of them I'm just saying in in this particular short contract that we have yeah two sites is not an undoable lay the building oh yeah I just want to double check well I think you narrowed it down to two sides we want to we want to get the full value of both SES prob um what's really critical is I noticed it's interesting I'm not as familiar with town but um and I'll have to more often I get lost easy um location image I know is quite a bit of Vari looking at this I just seeing that too and and and if you had to look at these two sites which one has the most visibility and the most acceptability in I mean I would say some other said what I would say don't think it was four to three or Washington there's some it seems to be pretty major roads leading to the uh School site versus Bishop I remember trying to get the bishop we wandering up the back road is there a more direct way there than no but Bishop I mean and again these are my perceptions of it Bishop Road is closer to downtown more easily accessible for people who are moving in slower traffic you know along Park Street gron Harvard you know the Washington Street piece there's more people traveling at a higher rate because there's nothing else there it tends to be more people traveling at a higher rate of speed going from point A to point B and they pass by there frequently either on their way to school perhaps to the transfer station or as part of their commute going from one end of the town to the other is there one road that leads to the bishop site there one road right the one that we drove on D and it didn't seem to be highly developed no I'm sorry I call it the brush site yeah right next to the cemetery yeah nobody nobody uses that no that's quite a few people use that so you live on the wrong side surpr I'll let you guys look up terms of action steps though we have two we we have two sites and Dan's going to look into the utilities C do we want and we're we're talking about sort of the idea of the access and the visibility in the traffic are there any other tangible items that we need that we need to be working on before our next meeting to get us to a place where we might so I think Dan should also K he said if we can do some test holes at gron Harvard Road if we can find out if we have Phil available out somewhere on site or we can save a significant amount of money to level the site you know I mean those two things you'd have to look into too I think right so can we I don't think we can do a soil sample at gr Harvard Road until got an official school committee yeah so I mean I I guess my question would be what of that of that soil step would be something that you would do versus something something that would need to be hired out because if you're G to hire somebody you want to do both sites at the same time so I guess Well we'd like to be present for sure um yeah I you know what I don't think that's a decision you have to make right away what what I really like is just a ballpark utility idea yeah and then I think Dan a versus Dan B B A you're b or um what we might want to do is get a SAT photo and show it'll help me to better understand I'd like to show these two key sites in relationship to to the geographic area of the Town um especially how Dev plays it into game yeah we do have you know desktop data available for the soils out there yeah my engineer would have that too web soil survey you could either go online there or there's a middle sex County um soil survey we have that data you I did look at it the materials that Bishop Road are very good well-graded type Ace what they call and it it does show Surface ledge over at the other site of like har site and in pretty much all the areas you can see it there so you know just initially we already know we're probably getting into but doing the test pits will really give us the yeah field conf you send send us a link to those soils yeah I can get that I don't want to wake up my civil engineer too soon he's difficult he's very good he's very good he sleeps a lot yeah I know no is he an old guy too is he an old guy too yeah like me no he's a lot young he's like a child like you so what's he doing napping then yeah I know so we did conclude already C wants to control the civil engineering oh that's what we want right yeah we have a couple local civil engineers in town done a lot of work a lot right control the okay he's he's very good one thing that we do carry when in our proposal was for Geotech but we really don't want to release the Geotech until this group is really pick to some yeah because there there there's a lot of and Geotech I would recommend if a Sit an ultimate sites pick we'd like to do a full geot you go down down or so because the one thing you also don't is is some kind of layer of organic material that SCS everything up also the another surprise could be very very large chunks of ledge not ledge but oh erratics ertic buried in there and that's part of our little digging excise we won't just dig one whole yeah no we definitely can provide test fits our Highway vision and that will help us you need to yeah I walked to d hav Road there's a lot of asht that's been dumped over I told you that right yeah trucks you somebody just left over they just dropped it was like toward the detention base must have been DPW you left the rug and sweep it that was before my time that can be be yeah why can't we move it the brush dump and then grind it put it in later it forward with some additional information about desktop level soil information and the utilities and we'll continue that part of this discussion later um okay any building on both sides we haven't done it yet on okay program Dr yeah yeah we'll get that all right so natural gas up at the there's no natural gas on the side of the street that we're talking going by The Bu Trucking Company it's on Washington Street I don't remember up the top my head oh it was on that second page and I don't think I included anybody's second page yeah gas is yeah gas is available on road it is so anything else for the site rankings that's very helpful um all right so I think that brings us to the select board update and that is their next meeting that we will be on the agenda is um the 18th of June and I apologize I was hoping to have a draft of that presentation um available forw tonight um but was thinking it would just be a history of what we've done so far we went from the 54 sites down to three we've engaged yeah we've engaged in an architect we've worked on the draft program we've narrowed it to two that's sort of what I was thinking um are there other elements of that that we want to make sure that the select board is aware of did you mention the RFD oh yep y put that in there I given the setting I think it would it would be good to acknowledge or mention that we're aware of the need for public Outreach that we will be soliciting input from the community regarding questions about program size and and all the rest of it that is I think it's important that the community understand that we are not shoving this down their throat better that is we're not we are providing them some information and wanting their suggestions as to how best to develop this program and that the select board be aware of that that's critic absolutely because I think that a lot of people watch you know more than more so than here perhaps watch the uh select board meetings so they'll be more aware of you know we're open to their suggestions I think we talked about that too trying to be helpful in that process putting together presentation powerful and then call together not only the ca group but down why because the the best way to win over project is making sure everybody has input stakeholders everybody a chance voice so the object what we'll do also we'll hear some objections that'll be useful to deal with and answer respond to some valid and some maybe a little a little out there like I have my experience in town meetings so and the idea is to get to town meeting without with as few objections as possible or having an answer this men that's a very I think it's critical for select board to do especially with a wider AUD all right any other um under public input ready for that that's why I was just going to ask any any other things on discussion before we check okay you had something you wanted to yeah okay I I just I just want to uh remind you and ask you to invite other people to come to our initial meeting of the friends of the COA which is tomorrow 1:00 here and um you know that's a great Avenue to help advocate for this as well as advocate for the And to clarify for anyone who might be listening to this later the friends of the COA group is a 501c3 um fundraising organization um that can help with both cost of operating the um Council on Aging that you know the town budget doesn't but most importantly an assistant fundraising for for all right go ahead PA good evening Katie thank you for recognizing me um just so Carolyn knows if she doesn't already I have advocated for people to attend tomorrow's meeting um hopefully people will um and as you know Katie I have really tried to publicize the um Senior Center meetings and I'm sorry to say with very oh what do I want to say slow results that's not even the right word I get a lot of feedback on my page but nobody attends the meeting so I don't know what to say to you um but I do have a couple of questions I I will continue to do so as best I can I'm happy to see my friend Pat in the audience the um draft program that you all discussed at length tonight I did not see that as one of the documents will that be on the website it is it's actually back in the packet from um May 22nd was the first time it was discussed so it's that I will look and is that the updated version because you all discussed updates tonight right so I don't even have that that was a the Architecture Firm brought that I'm going to yeah that has been emailed to me during this meeting I'll make sure it gets posted tomorrow perfect and I really don't have any other questions but again I just commend you all you all are doing a great job um I will say this the feedback about gron Harvard Road on my page uh what is that what you call Facebook page I guess so was a little disappointing because people seem to think it's going to smell oh I don't know why but you know there's nothing no odors coming from the transfer station that I've ever experienced so please keep considering that I I do think that's the better preference but that's my personal opinion not thank you and welcome Jim happy to see you there smile yeah wave okay yall have a good night any other public input um yeah a couple questions and and I know this is probably not that important to this but when when the bridge gets started the bridge over on um West Main will traffic be diverted up Vision uh no it's going to be phased construction with one-way alternating traffic so there'll be like a temporary street light on each side of the approaches to the bridge so so they will but I bet you a lot of people might start going around once they find yeah I mean my house that's what I yeah but um anyway and is that going to start soon or um so we've had some issues with utility coordination but I would expect to have a bid I'm hoping don't mark my words um in the summer a bid go out because we just wrapped up some issues we had with significant about instruction ways to get yeah yeah so like I said it's one way alternating if people know the way around they might PO on mcf and Bishop if it's easier yeah um and the only other thing I really had was um how are you going to go about getting public opinion is that those questionnaires going go all residents or just SEC so I I think that oh we go out to everybody everybody so we know that we've really defined what that process will be but it certainly will be seeking the input of of residents but we have to we have to wait a little bit because we have to have something to show them for them to comment on so that's why we been trying to get kind of to maybe one or two steps from where we are now um but yeah I would anticipate that being some highly publicized meetings that are more open in nature um you can certainly do like an online survey or um so there's going to be a document that people yeah and and I will take tips from the Architecture Firm as well because they've done this a lot in terms of what is most successful but we we'll probably try multiple Avenues um just so that people can contribute in the most convenient way possible for them and I think that start a lot of people having conversation and last it's my person um is there any chance that there's going to be gardening places that sure it it's all it'll be developed over time it depends upon the site and what's available but I don't a lot of our sites we often do we often it I always like to encourage a Garden Club yeah because two things one is like if you go to Milbury we did that maybe 30 years ago we created a walk area very large outdoor walk area around with a gazebo at one end and you went around in the big square and it was all planted and the Garden Club maintains the U granal Gardens along with annuals and I think they do a little bit of of vegal work too but it really it it's it's part of the program that you will be asking for or looking for and then it can developed you know with the committee how Landscaping is are yeah I I work with the center really you know talk about having to be outside in fact a lot of ouros planting and it's best not to leave it to DPW for the sake of our next meeting um when do you guys W TOS of we're going to supply you with plans very early plans how long and it'll take us not very long maybe the end of next week and then we get those out to you email for everybody look at and comment yeah and it's just it's really putting together that program that you're here um into series of adjacencies alal and if we can get those before the next meeting so I can post them anyone be great um so and then Dan in terms of your deliverables as far as utilities and then looking at soil survey data um it won't take long I just got to find time but yeah i' say well there would be done then next week with plans I'll make sure I'm done end the next week with it yeah so maybe you meet the last week of June what about the soil I I mean utilities that's what he's yeah talking about doing cost estimating for that yeah so last week of June do we want to stick with Wednesday I don't I I I can't I don't know what Dave's availability is are you available more nights than Wednesdays now is how's your how's your team doing pretty open no everything just ended okay is that good or bad make playoffs they're only seven years [Laughter] oldun chaos um June 26th that's Wednesday does that work for everyone yeah I just pull that data because the fall we is Fourth of July week yeah it's all right um all right so Wednesday June 26 I will check in with Town manager's office to make sure that that works with the other things um if we're able to meet in town hall it we can both be air conditioned and here at the same time we don't have to choose between those to where is here we do um and if not we'll we can meet here so I will this is comfortable spot I don't I mean all you know it's 85 Dees outside either what's that it's not 85 degrees outside either six o' six o'cl y that seems to work for anything else or do we have a motion all right second second all in favor I says I we are adjourned at 8:08 P.M