welcome everyone this is the town of air Senior Center site selection and building committee meeting today is Wednesday May 15 2024 6:m um I have my mandatory blur here this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance and or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if the technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with a particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting 375 414 6055 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about participation pleas contact Carly antonelis assistant Town manager at atm. ma. us 4978 772 8220 extension 100 prior to the meeting so welcome everybody um we have our usual crew plus um klyn architecture do you guys want to just introduce yourself real quickly before we go into you remember your name go ahead Dan arts project manager John first I just want to say thank you for including us I know it's a tough decision we're very blessed to be at um so first item is um approval of actually uh approval of the agenda much all right all in favor hi um next is approval of the minutes um we had two that were available to or two to be approved but I don't have minutes from the April 10th meeting Dennis are those the ones you were going to do or do I need to look back and see I thought wase um these are the ones that from April 24th the ones that you had in your packet right are the ones in pristine oh I'm sorry so four been mine then okay next one yeah yeah yeah did everyone have a chance to look through the minutes from the April 24th any question complete very well was there so I have no inut all right um then I get to approve make a motion to approve the minutes as written second all in favor hi hi hi hi great I think Ellen yeah she's Ellen and Dan hi so um that brings us to the updates on the due diligence that for the two of the three town owned sites um both of them are I think good news um the first one is that um Ken and Dan and I and Robert met with um representatives from Mass development and um they were it was lovely meeting and long story short they're enthusiastic about moving the gate um so that the gate on Bishop Road uh they're going to get quotes on you know a scope of the work but and then contact UM fish and Wildlife who would um be only the people who would have an opinion about where to move the gate um due to the migratory patterns of some endangered species back that way but the kind of cons the the verbal consensus we had was that it would definitely not be a problem to move to the edge of um to the edge of Oxbo and then likely would be fine to move on back to the other side of that triangle where we wanted it um that would allow people turn around so that is wonderful news question will they do that whether or not we we choose this site um I don't know I think yeah we want them to do yeah they were on board either way they you know they think it's a great uh a great opportunity um to move in even you know with everything going on down there they were on board yep is that the old guy or the new guy they just have a change of leadership over there very recently not the people we spoke to was it there a temporary uh CEO or something temporary yeah Meg delorier is the temporary there but the the engineer the gentleman that spoke the most and seemed to have more of a connection to it was the their engineer he'd been there for 23 years he was yeah do you want to say anything else about it then while we're talking about it or just let it go I mean I think Katie hit it pretty well yeah and you we did offer DPW to help with some Services if they need it but you know they pretty much want to move it as well um so their engineering and their DPW are both looking at doing it and then if they need our help they'll let us know um you know we may end up as part of it we'll coordinate with them putting a if the gate gets move further down we might put a sign at the uh intersection of Park and Bishop to kind of let people know if the gate's closed or not since it'll be much further down you can't see it so it it was all it was a pretty positive meeting though it's you know great you know that they're going to do it so so just I missed the first so Mass development is moving the gate are gonna just do it on their all right yes okay A M Wess roadway they have to plow so that is positive because um you know that would have been a road block for this like so that is literally that's nice that's so that is wonderful to see that um development and then for the gron Harvard Road Site um the Town Council did come back that the entire parcel was placed under the control of the school committee at the time that that was transferred so um again not a roadblock but what we were trying to determine is what would be the correct process for carving out a parcel for the senior center and so um my understanding at this point is that it would require a um an agreement between the select board and the school committee to break the current lease and then a town meeting vote to um Define that parcel and take it out of educational use use for going back to municipal use um it would not require a two town meeting just a single town meeting requ District what would not require a district a district I'm sorry is two town right right would not require a district it would require an air town meeting so I I think both of those things are are positives um both of them are do both um neither one of them make either site need to be eliminated so Robert had told us we going to try to make this week or maybe the end of last week with the superintendent of schools right um I know he's out for a few days um this week I will follow up with him about that he had already contacted the superintendent to chat about it and he said that'd be F the followup in set of a Mee PR to talk record but the indication is that they know where the piece of land is at talk already right side of the site right and and Brook Street is I don't think we had any due diligence items for Brook Street yeah um Dan is that but it's still on our RAR 10 yes yeah I just think that was more of a because it was already our in every capacity didn't have any contingencies am I summarizing that correctly D yeah R all right um item number four is updates on the vacant board feat as you all know um one of our board members needed to step down um happens so we're another board member um it has been advertised um um and no one has come forth to you're not rushing forward no this is fun stuff they takes a lot of time yeah it it it does take some time and it's a long process right so um know the town manager's office reached out to those individuals because when we formed this committee the first time there was more interest than there were seat um on the committee and so the town manager's office reached out to those that weren't selected the first time um and ask them to reaffirm their interest um and so I think there was one applicant who then withdrew it but their their interest but there just hasn't been anybody that's submitted letter so um come you must know somebody that oh I'll look around I didn't realize that was still a problem okay so ask around talk to people you know if anyone wants to be on um any other input on that one I thought be a we had so much fun the first they just know that I'm here and like we're not deing with I thought that's about me only happens so maybe that brings us to what I think will be the real meat of tonight's meeting is our kickoff with uh with our and Dan the other Dan we'll we'll give you a new nickname there's always another yeah on every job we've had a couple Dan yeah yeah mine's 2.0 on my softball team I'm the second Dan anyway carry on version 2.0 well we'll call verion um well thank you for having us in all sincerity we were thrilled to to work with you on this and I've been here before interviewed long time or something maybe the one that Aus got um what we've done danad and I have been picking this round we came and visited and met up with Dan the other Dan over at DPW and he pointed us to the sites and and we'll roll that up in just a minute we don't get people too excited and U this Dan went out and did the U did some s photographs and just get a and in the handout there's kind of a criteria sheet that we use we're looking at sites um to understand them um your p and and the program by the way needs to be dealt with as we look at the sites because the program will have fa amount of impact in the various programs so they kind of run simultaneously with each other but you can only address one thing at a time so so I we handed out we use a site criteria list and it covers what we in our experience pretty much covers all the issues that you run into on sites to make us aware of what they are everything from hazardous material to Wetlands to utility access um and um who owns the site and I think it's really great that you know even though the schools involved in this and we've done a couple sites where the school gave up land for Theiss and or passed it over to the other public um these are really critical and when we go to look and we're going to hand out and I brought this with me I'm going to hand out and I'm sorry you don't have it online but somebody wave in front of owl here um I didn't send these right away but if I can here I'll give you a bunch of these you this is a matrix based on several things not all of which I think I think there's 10 here yeah and I think we added a couple more and this Matrix covers the same issues and what we ask you to do as and we're going to roll out our big site PL that we've put together yeah we'll get that to you guys um I apologize I worked on this yesterday so I didn't get it out to you and what you do is we we we um we we we give it numbers strongly negative to strongly positive between one and three and what happens is when we do that and we let you you all do this you know we'll do our own little thing on the side but but we want we want a consensus from the group so everybody gets a chance to we'll we'll tell you what we think about the sites and I think Dan our D DPW Dan will also tell us some of the aspects and issues of the site that we're concerned about we don't know everything about it right now we don't know about about Wetlands we don't know about ledge there's ledge on one of the sites uh site utilities water sewer how we deal with that that all comes up in this process and what happens from that is that we ended up with I BR we end up with a chart and I gave you an example of one from the town of hardwork long time I noticed it was 2014 but it still works the same way and what you'll see is that when all the numbers are add this is quite a few sites they have like six sites when all the numbers add up you you'll end up with a one two and three right and and and it's from everybody who rates it so um and I think there's enough to go around there I I did 12 I leave some be handed out [Music] to who else it's up there all who else is online Dan and Ellen got it um you can see um in this case we had um we had a rank of one two three four five and six and in the end we ended up at the lower elementary school uh we wanted the M the original Senior Center was being considered but the renovation was really difficult and to tear it down was even more difficult we ended up with the elementary school who completed the study but it wasn't funded which is sometimes I think out of the 55 60 that we've designed maybe about 35 of them been built which is a pretty good considering how difficult it is to get through on this chat it's evident that the first two items were way ahead of the other four 23 and 17 yeah yeah well we looked at everything we looked at a dog I mean we they this was all the sites they had in town that the town owned that they felt one is a mill Mill building which was 150,000 fet and one of the unfortunate things about the building is that when you go to put somebody un like eight reviews it's a change in occupancy you got to upgrade the whole thing and it it becomes it's a beautiful mil building I would love to have a senior C if we could have had a few other players to come in with us so um but this this is the way it works out and and what it does it builds a consensus of the committee and the understanding of what the site is so when we go to look at the then I'm going to shut up for a while um you look at this list here called site selection criteria can we are are you expecting us to fill this out each individual each individual yeah whether you and if you don't feel lot of things that I I yeah well but we'll discuss a lot of these and and I think you'll get a handle we don't expect you to go look at the site look at this and say oh well this is a process there'll be a number of meetings about this theology Andy we're expect we don't yet know the geology and the hology and the utilities yeah well the utilities we'll find out about because in some cases we have water in other cases the water's pretty far away so there's a cost Factor but if you don't have public water it's about a $50,000 item it's because Public Water Supplies requires a lot more work than if you were out Town water there's a lot of legal issues I can drill a well for 8,000 bucks and get good one but we want our senior until us qualified so you look at this location and image is really important demographically where are you in town where's the familiar location um does it have good visibility is the road safe the Builder area you know we've looked at one s's right behind I don't want to CER anything here but the one site right behind the DBW is really a tight site we looked at um ownership I think we're pretty clear on that which is really critical because in a couple places I think in Welsley we had a buy a little lot next door called SW a little tiny lot there was 6,000 square fet with one so that really changed the but we needed it because we and because we needed parking you so were there any existing structures I may have written a note Dan I don't know where you got that for me Dan I want to know whether we have any history we'll we'll like look into the history of these sites what's been on the site before um we had one site where we had a former School built in 1800s we had the outline of new where the foundation was and we very carefully buildt our building not on that Foundation because we I got your email yeah I got that I'll check into it yeah no rush before the next meeting we'll get some of this information hasmat materials is really critical especially if we're near the Air Force Base you know who knows what they were throwing her at we have some plume problems up at P Air Force Base where we had fire firefighting phone yeah so we we need to look into that that's why we want water um access two of the sites have pretty good access one is on a busier Road by the school I think utility access is really critical because like to get an idea in wilham we had to bring the sewer down like you know at least a half a mile away and the town funded that because they said oh great we'll put the town hall on at the same time so we combine two of them to other but it was a pretty expensive item but it was outs we kept it outside of the budget but in this case we might not to do that uh and when you talk about utilities we talk about we may need a septic system not the end of the world but that requires per tests soil tests uh and any kind of nearby hydrology issues what and Main yeah not not my lifetime but now the new ones now the ones for more commercial you know Municipal they're a lot more sophisticated now than the one I have in my backyard in my house where I PP every three years hope for the best um views and orientation you know um maybe down the road dvas you know photo Elric you know might be an option how we Orient the building and what kind of surfaces do we have to provide some kind of energy mitigation on the site um we've done a number of centers using geothermal very compated we have really great water in here thinking I think the town of Delmont Senior Center and polio Senior Center are both geothermic and in Delmont they made a fortunate decision because the neighbors didn't like the generator even though it was so attenuated for sound fact when it ran nobody knew it was running but they took it out and of course when they lost power pumping system stopped and it actually FRS up into the system so you know those are things that come into play we think about all that the other issue is we we highly recommend standby generator we don't really call an emergency generator because if you if it's this could be a warming Center you know for loss of power an ice storm or something um it can be a cooling center when it's extremely hot which is as Elders were much more sensitive to temperature um and there can be a backup for that and the one we just did in um wilham and the one in long metal are both full building they run the one we did in only theal he heat electricity and cooking water um so views and orientation orientation that issue with um with possible future electrical so this and you have that in your handle so and then the last thing that you would the roll out what Dan has done is put together yeah I went ahead and one side I didn't wasn't able to pull a drone but of course is a highly TR I was able to go over there and drown some of the sites just to kind of get a baseline of what's going on at one so this is Washington Street so this is the Washington Street one over by the school uh just few I noticed where the why don't we line them up together a little on one side and everybody can stand on one side and then reverse roll it next time yeah have the El you that there you go and this one here I I one at time yeah just do one at a time we do whatever we want organized so these both of the Brook Street ones this is the one that's over off of the fish um you have your here this is the brush one side how do you want to do I look upside down I will I can send you guys these later on we're going leave we're going to leave leave these for you a second um but just a few things you know we got we have our brush pile over here I'm talking to Dan it looks like this was going to be the approximation for the brush this the remaining brush and then using this area over here for the center where's that gate we're talking the gate so the gate for the road would be way down somewhere down here I think it is and then so Bishop's coming along here and this is the gate access that's right along the road there wait Miss I've been here a many time to drive it all the time so right here is if you're on Bishop Road oh Bishop yeah so I did this this is also down here so I mean I've seen it so many times we're sitting right here at that star yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so you've got so the airfield's over here the airfields up behind you yes this the little sh entrance is what you're see correct and that's where this the brush piles and there's a bunch of long as Dan hasn't thrown any pcbs in there no this was so this this was given to us by the Army okay this was given away Surplus land what was it like forget the date 58 68 or something I don't know Dan and I looked it up and found it and we've got some the plans on it we got them from the Devin people but yeah it was it's a very nice s flap the old this is being gravel before brush that's probably why it's been leveled out with the high Edge the high Edge and all that cutting out back there in good material Dan do do we know approximately how much of that area how many acres we could use for the building you have a guesstimate um I could I could measure it on like Mass Mapp or something but you know I think Dan the other Dan pointed out about you know where we'd probably delineate and and give ourselves some room um just give me a minute I'll I'll I'll measure it out we would like to have about three acres two yeah I li so where so where are we looking for looking at the seni center be over on this portion yes so here's see that's the here the brush the old brush and here I don't like over here is nice too think I think really you can use that you can see from these images it's really set flat all way around they underneath well we'll find out yeah that's right unexplored Ates talk or two one of the discussion we don't see bodies I'll stop everything we talk to mass development they own a you know triangle shaped piece of land over there yeah and we saw that on I think it shows up in that amazingly it's this triangle shape right here yeah and it's still listed as open space and Recreation on design oh really so we when I talk to him the other day this is the cemetery y this is a some a star right here yeah okay so when we had that discussion one of the things I talked to mass development about was yes if we push the senior center over that side and end up using your view as let's call it you know in that direction yeah and potentially pick up trail system or something and build it around you know whatever we want to do there but um they had no objection to basically anything we brought up they they don't have any intention of really ever it might do something there but it would still basically maintain has open space in in Recreation so I was trying to push the point of recreation yeah actually go ahead Wason say can I share my screen Katie I I'll show you it's about about three acres what I highlighted if you can sh simultaneous yeah yeah there we go all right are you able to share now uh yeah should be guys yeah he can put some he can put go just Mass mapper so that yeah this blue sort of rectangle here it's about three acres yeah so it goes a little bit farther past that I show here yeah but but that it's like this chunk area and the entire three acres are out of air own control yeah we're where this rectangle this is all yeah all in the town of airport property yep and how how close is that to the dev boundary you know where the triangle is it's got it right on it right up right here okay all right oh that's good than yeah there we go that's basically right cor that fence line is right now yeah face fence lines yeah that's the triangle yeah and when you say the gate that's the gate on the road yeah there's currently a gate up there that's Cemetery it's a little bit you have a road here it's probably here because there's the Third Road into the cemetery here is the gate it's a public road yes public road yeah but it floods so the gates there so you can't drive and get stuck in the flood up by the train track The Trestle that's on the other the other end by what is this the flooding is nowhere near though a really large section of road for a small section of flooding because it's just the easiest place to control traffic having somebody drive all the way out there turn around come back so that's why exactly exactly that make it very turns out I hate to clarify this but you don't give me a moment um we did some research and we found out the Army installed that gate and they installed it when it was still their land they installed the there because people used to race down the street and it was a lot going on oh you did you used to race down the street yeah I race down the street okay clarifi that they were doing security Pur they were sick and tired of sending people over there to monitor the road and so forth so they put the gate up so Mass development had no has no issue with the gate because they never cared about that issue their issue is has nothing to do with security it's open all the time unless it floods so now all we have to do is protect Bloods not that whole section right become a RAC track again though could become a RAC track the grandchildren put one of these fancy speed bumps in the mid we'll take any so that that's a very nice site the second one was the school one that's just is it we can go to do matter so here's a school much larger site but I noticed that all this is pretty ledgy just I walked out there I've seen Stones everywhere yeah it's really bad up here by the playing field yeah it seems like that area a little hard to get back into but it was the piles of old adinis in there yeah I seen something the piles dumped there years ago of what as somebody just these days they grind it up and reuse they recycle it but back then they just I saw something like that you could still take grind it out use it as a base but it's steep too there I think isn't it there's some good grades changing here over here it's pretty there's some gr change but it's not as dramatic is over here we were thinking of couple yeah that's what we took it driveway which is right here the driveway yeah you're right left you can't see what we're doing but we're going to send this map out I don't know I don't know how come out how much area is this like in in this part right Dan Dan DBW could maybe we call him Dan van Dan Van Dan Van I like Dan done Dan van so we're looking at the where are we looking right now the school we at the school yeah here you just you might be able to see it and talk loudly the long narrow rectangle be by Washington Street that we were looking at Yeah by play field do we know what total Anchorage is or what yeah I can uh try to get a rough one here measure it I'm on they must have fill all of us to build this field yeah they build it up a big slow when we looked at this we pretty much discounted that this Arrow had and go this way yeah yeah okay that and that's this one maybe that's as f as that because roughly this is what I was looking out of that high point in the road is Right visually have to be up in here and the entrance now that little access I think it's almost across so we're talking to the right of the driveway when we were standing in there we were talk when we did the site visit we were like if you were looking at the driveway with the we were talking to the left of the driveway so now we're talking to the right of the driveway no we're probably going to have the driveway maybe centered so we were thinking maybe there's a retaining wall down in here something like that and then you could potentially blast whatever you got in this corner and then come down this way like this we never walked down here much right that's what I'm saying yeah we didn't walk we kind of stopped only 20 ft from the driveway what we were trying to get away from was the fact that there was a misunderstanding I think when we went out there that people thought we were going to be down by the actual pocket lock of the conservation yeah we weren't going to be okay trying to get up in here and this field currently is a a soccer field practice field could be anything it's not a baseball it's mostly football but you could snug up pretty close to the field what's up here what what's this area it's just the slope that's filled right in here steep yeah this connects almost over to Washington Street again because see one of the problems I I don't have the dimensions there but one of the problems pulling up pce are yeah yeah what I showed here that's 2.28 Acres that highlight so I don't know if it's the it's approximate where you're looking but I'm sorry 2.2 you said 2.3 say 2.3 but you know if I pull this out a little further down where my mouse is I don't know if you see that but yeah that could be uh you know add a little more could you possibly go the other way more towards the top of your um Wasington yeah is that is that like very steep I [Music] think it's kind of low but it's not that steep steep right next to the field but it's not that steep down below it's steep right in here still right here dis because this is up high this guy think there's a bit no that's this area very steep yeah this you really can't do much out that you're pretty much looking point this may end up being us for G around this is piig up where's that is that coming fromo he's G Dan Dan Van has gone up around this this field a little bit one of my concerns is long narrow sights causes our parking to stretch out away from the main which makes it access for some for folks to get into the building so if you get up higher this way we have a lot more opportunity to get our parking more associated with the entrance to the building so blasting up in here somewhere you think yeah or or here or here if we can get it up in here in this Zone even with that steepness that's okay so Dan what he think now kind of going closer towards the tennis fors making long narrow rectangle where the yeah that's retaining the material this is so he's he showing it as a Zone more like this yeah yeah yeah which gives us how much is that actually we might is this a retainage area we could actually use some of that because we have to keep all our water yeah Dan if we if you were trying to get it all between the field and the retaining area go from basically the ten court all the way is that more space I right up here I by they got a bridge out there you can do if you need to pick up some so that's call that Washington something like that getting that note yeah more like that that's 2.4 that doesn't give you any more space that's what you were talking about John was stay sort of away from this long narrow area well you but you could you could you could grab a little piece of that but that's that's that's a more that has more between width and length gets a lot better versus longer narrow I don't have real handle on distance of the narrow part pretty n yeah we have the to we can put the to plan yeah we have that we we can get that and last but not least and the bur Street one it's a very small rocky area um you you have this one street axis it's pretty level here but once you get past here you start seeing a lot of ledge yeah Dan Dan Van I guess we'll call you can you it's nice yeah it's G to be getting up there lot give me a minute was AR there um water sewer through there yeah yeah he it comes dly across comes good though sewer M's nearby yeah well I think Washington Street I think Washington Street or the school has water and sewer so I think no se for the school school has but goes in the other direction there's nothing at the trucking company there's nothing nothing that corner we have to bring it downhilling never afraid of pumping you know all or 18 yeah when when I was talking to some of the seniors about the sights too busy no what came up here is odor what what do we get from from the seww B I live right across the street you a couple times a year you might get a little bit of odor but not much I live literally I can stand in my backyard see the lights from the the sewer plant and it's only two maybe three times a year you get a little while you they're not living there either they're not staying it's a so what's that acreage there D yeah so that and this is pretty a big area and it kind of goes over some of the utilities we here that's that's about almost one and a half right there and you are right the main pumping station all the sewer in town goes to this building here that's the main pumping station then it gets pumped to the air wastewater treatment plant or to devans and there are mornings where that is or even probably evenings too where it is kind of the venting is a little noxious like I don't say noxious but you know has there are orders it's a little small it looks like access for a senior center which is kind of a has a real image in town seems like you're kind of in the back I think some of the concerns were the um proximity to the residential housing too here in the you got res back right up to it and walking trails oopsa yeah there are yeah the other question that seniors brought up when I was talking about this this site was um mosquitoes you know there is yeah I see that yeah I see that along that yeah can I make a quick comment to on on the land in general because John may not know this so we spent we spent literally months d g gave us and this Matt hear who works with them they gave us drawings on every single possible land in the town was 52 parts starting from the smallest piece to the biggest so but since we hadn't had response on these rfps we private had of had a stated goal first thing we would do break down and look at all the town so by default we ended up you know looking at all these possible and ended up with these as being the three that were remaining the 50 odd that we s probably 30 of them weren't we weren't even thinking about to get then was some that big but they were wet other conservation issues so we are kind of restricted as what I'm getting at with our choices right now we did spend a lot of time in out of the analysis to get to we didn't just pick these right off the top well they actually except for perhaps at DB DPW the other conerns and the fact that they're Town own and then we'll work with Dan Van to double check on utilities and distance and one of the next steps would be is to you can't do the complete evaluation because we don't have all the answers to that list of things hydrology GIS will tell us give us a rough idea so that the U we would probably want to do get the town's back out there do some test thiss and dig around a bit see what's going on and and that would begin to give us our answers and then the utilities are really critical we notice that water is available in the school site is not not water water goes everywhere whereas sewer TS you go down and gets pumped up so we we will look at those things and then and and they all have everything has a financial impact and and um and ultimately we'll come to the program next because I think looking and I'm going to leave an extra set of these years um when we come to the program we have to look at the program and if you're if you're under 10 you know the minimum size that really works for a community center is probably about 8,000 and the best size that we work with is about 12 14 and you're kind of you're your your area of interest is was 10 to 15 15 might be a little expensive the numbers in the last uh as I may mentioned in the interview the last three or four years uh construction cost G up 40% yeah it's brutal food's B instructions and and you know we're F sub chapter 149 s so I mean a state and and low man wins um we've had great success with low Manor um but we've also had some disappointments and it's our job is with with the town is that when it's finally bit up it is I can go ahead of myself our job is to make sure we write very tight specs very tight thrs and whoever wins lives by it and and some firms want to play the game change orders and all that stuff you don't get away with lot really welome and part of it is knowing your sight and having absolutely no surprising I have some of the horror stories out there not Town not very far away from here the architect and civil engineers missed the fact that there were just below the surface were Boulders not little five we're not we know we know they're there well well idea wle there was a there's a building in the site so we actually we crisscross the site with the town's back we dug up there you we looked at everything so the idea is in this process of picking the site knowing the site and then getting a program that fits properly on that site that gives us what something which is really critical and that is adequate parking um uh some of our towns been successful because it's been next to like Town Hall wver so you have overflow so both of these sites don't seem to happen unless maybe up at to school people wander down through the woods but those are things that are really critical as we go to look at these things can I yeah go ahead what's the typical parking calculation per or spaces actually it's going to be meeting I've already started my meeting note right now the town's parking Rags are quite honestly a little bit on the weak side for us one space per five seats for a senior center a lot of people don't drive four or five people in their car they drive their car maybe their spouse or friend uh you do have a van um and they can bring some people to generally we would suggest 75 parking spaces for multi-purpose and if it's a lecture space that goes up higher that pushes you closer to 100 space now um and and that you know in the end we have to deal with what we have they give you an idea wly we can only we had to buy the next door lot so we can get 37 parking that was not um they max out that side so we we have a much better opportunity here we have two sites that we know I think that look like we the other issue too is proximity parking to the entrance we highly recommend only it gets complicated when you have a building and you got different people coming in and you don't know who they where they are um very very large centers it's a very serious problem because you don't know who so at the end of the night if you got a 45,000 scate building somebody has to wander through the whole building closets and things like that when you have one entrance and you have my senior center whatever check I got 1700 square feet and I check every closet and bathroom so the idea one entrance is really good for control you never know who's going where doing what or maybe getting somebody you don't want to come in so when we set that up that needs to be close to your parking field if you ever look at a supermarket the old days Supermarket was 30,000 sare ft the new Mega like Stop and Shop and Market Basket when we used to design those the parking field rues for supermarkets 360 ft you have to park more than 360 ft they don't come so what they do is they do two doors they draw 360 around now they now they covered for a 60,000 Foot Center well we kind of have the same thing we don't want to have somebody walking you know two or 300 feet to get to the front door so we want to densify our parking within that radius and all of our handicap parking is always adjacent to the building on the sidewalk that leads directly into it so that kind of when we go to do this site work those are the kinds of things we're going to try and lay out with you and get a handle on so that when we're all done it's a center I always like to say my mother who's not with us anymore if she had to look down 150t long hallway with her walker that's one classroom she's not going to so our idea is to densify open up the center so that everybody no matter what your mobility issue is gets access to the spaces so one thing that's come up and I know Kitty has looked at this in detail the um the idea of having van drop offs you know that people won't be arriving their own cars but they may be taking the town b y in and out and and how does that work in terms of proximity to the road and it should be absolutely on the site I do not recommend that what happens is let's say you have it on the road and you have a van drop off guess what not only the van's going to be dropping off but other people will be coming to do that too or I'm going to pick you up and I have to go out the road and pick you up because you're going to be at that door not at the door where I can pick you up that so if you go to wilham you will see you'll see there's a pullup and the idea is that if you don't have that pull up like the van I I think AA had a van pull off when you have that you got to have other cars getting by because it takes for some people five eight minutes to get out of the car can't have holding up traffic so we pull that over for that in north and over we actually pulled over and we also created a another way of getting by but um that that logistical issue is really important and also the other nice thing about it is that the van can come and drop you or somebody else can drop but you're always coming through your and and we've got a the center we did last in Kentucky is 45,000 ft we have one and what we did there is we made a much longer drop off along a handicap axis so the van could pull up and somebody could pull up behind them or you could pass by them so that that you can line up 304 because 45,000 ft multi-purpose room so and then uh and I think in longm which is a fairly recent one we had the entrance to the gym separate because used it could operate separately the senior center connected to the gym fitness and downstairs but but you could also have you know kids coming in to play basketball it worked as a dual recre it's both Recreation and Senior Center and the senior center was St stud but the gym was every except right now they sced with all the pickle ball all they do is over the place what do wilam didn't have pickleball course no no we we we did not build a 30,000ft center in wad with the gymnasium No in fact well in Lexington we have an outdoor BS and then and then long we have four outs because we're on we're in a park and we used the park we took out the tennis courts and put in pickle ball cours and and we kept the playing fields and kept it swimming tool that brings up by the way I will bring this up right don't think I printed those out was going to send to next me I would highly recommend um I think I sent out a list of what you look for you going to visit somebody yeah things things that you should be aware of and I was going to recommend that and not everybody has to go I know some people have been to one or two of these I would highly recommend that we do lllo which is a brand new center and and long though they right and and wilam only 25 minutes away from there but I know it's an hour something because I know we we drove from wam here the other day um it's a little bit of a drive but to give you an idea how important it is when we did Lexington Kentucky all right we fle the entire committee Up To Boston Hotel got two Vans and we visited five PS in two days and when they went back they had an i they went back and their statement on their website we want to do what they're doing in Massachusetts Massachusetts is really unique one of the only state where communities are spending money on their elders and and we're doing it big time I mean we've done 50 or 60 studies of which many have been built if you go to Wisconsin there's probably three senior cers you go to New Hampshire Hampshire well they have they have a room so it's called a war yeah but but no that's why nobody wants to work with so open about but but the idea is that U your communities in this state have really made an effort to do the right thing and and I didn't bring it up I won't B you too much really quickly it costs right now on an average not every Community let's say $20,000 somebody did I bring this up at I did 20,000 let's say three and 12 years 123 so each kid times 12 is what 20 * 10 is 200 12 is 40 so 240 then you've got three kids spread out so you're going to end up around I think it's about a million two year now your your house taxes let's for say it's $10,000 so you're paying toward you you're paying towards your education a third of that the education so by the time you get done with your kids through School you've probably only paid $450,000 $350,000 with their education and the rest is a debt the town is paid it you know it's not a debt but it's it's the off public education but the longer we keep our Elder in our house you know we don't sell our three-bedroom house to family who brings in their kids again the longer we keep our elders in our house the longer they pay off that debt so if I can stay in my home another 10 years um when my kids have graduated and gone off of college for spending all my money school um that is a positive to the town so when you go to cell I mean it's a that's a Str let's let's go back talking about the job yeah I'll go back job but but keep that in mind when you get to around selling this it's a very positive thing the longer we keep ourselves healthy yeah I mean I I I see it economically but is what is what we really want for a town yeah well well you want your senior's housing what I'm what I'm understanding John to say is that having a good Senior Center helps keep your seniors in town and being successful that's the idea it didn't sound right and a bit there is an economic benefit to that because families with multiple children cost the town more than they pay in we're not exing I understand the economics you believe how many kids I have it's anyhow it's just I yeah let's not go there yeah we'll let it go John's gone too far again you can talk later um so get back because shingles are brick yeah so the idea is that shingles I have if no I've had it too um let's not go there either when we do our parking you know when we go to layout parking let's say 75 to 100 cars we also don't do 8 foot old parking spaces we do 9 foot6 parking spaces and we do them double line because if you spend a lot of time in senior centers you'll see that people don't park straight and we give lots of room and one of the compliments we get from long mle is we don't have anybody hitting we give them enough room it it it I have some great pictures of handicapped parking spaces at our senior centers where somebody's into the line space when you're putting your car in because you don't get it in it's hard so part of this process on the site we'll be looking at how do we lay out the site for our parking parking is the biggest part of the site the building is now that brings us to the program if we're over about 9,000 square feet and you want to control your footprint a twostory building 10,000 square fet or high is a very positive thing and at 10,000 square fet it's about a break even if you're at 15,000 square F feet you're actually saving money going two stories and a lot of people say how's that possible you got an elevator you got two stairs you up more bathrooms but what happens is that a lot of people we forget that our footprint on a 15,000 ft building we probably have a an 8,000 ft footprint if it's all in one story it's it's a 15,000 so there's it's a very large slab but the other problem is you have a really large roof and that's where your energy issues come into play when I reduce the size of the roof and the size of the exterior envelope I reduce my energy and the the most expensive building it's not building it it's operating it for 50 years and um so reducing that exposure to the elements and it's true we we working on a project in Tass Florida it's it's same down there except the difference is we're worried about heat and up here and orientation of the building in terms of our windows and things nor South is a big part of that too that's I think a couple of these sites have some really good opportunities for so I don't want to go on too long about that but I wanted you to start digesting this and looking at this and and if you haven't been to us to the sites driving by or looking at I think you guys all so you all been to and I think we're GNA ask Dan Dan I like that I always pronounce your last name wrong anyhow um Dan's going to feed us some more information for us to put into this Matrix and then and tell you if there's a lot of ledge we'd like to stay away from the ledge if we can unless it's down 4 feet then we can set foundations on but but ledge is an issue and um utilities is the other big deal has materials we just built a Senor Center on our Brownfield site in wle there's a $25 million cleanup paid by wrj thank you very much they made a mistake of buy a an asbest break back and um so we we dealt with that and um but we don't want we don't want to be paying for hmap C period And if we have to sink a we and we have plume problem from P yeah that's that's a real issue uh it it clears our public water supply so so those are things we want to look at and and that will give us a lot more information but I think when Dan Ben is able we have some of the utilities now we have a problem with utilities on Bishop Road yeah yes that's the biggest problem we have yeah we saw that as a fairly distant yeah it's all the way down septic is not we can handle septic septic it looks like good material yeah and septic is a a $6,000 item but water do you guys emphasize the use of natural gas at all talk about we do we do two things we use vrf and supplement yeah don't use that term vfds vfds um we yes we we we use uh wherever we can get natural gas we use natural gas propane OB we a lot more expensive but we done a number of project with prot so the preference would be natural yeah and it's also it's much cleaner oh yeah and the nice thing about the heat pump systems is that we don't use a lot of it and you're on a stretch code so you're probably going to have an Erv energy recovery yeah all yeah he gives me erus erus are are it it's part of the Massachusetts stretch in energy gr the other thing we do we we really strongly advocate for this our last four centers are all closed cell phone with our roofs are r60s and our walls are r40s and we use the uh low U window systems and U the idea again is lowering operating your initial cost is higher the long-term cost is much much lower I always like to say if it's done right we might heat the place for the LEDs so put on so you don't use heat pumps yes we do that's that variable when you're looking at the sites one thing that has um especially for Washington Street but perhaps for Bishop Road as well that is the traffic Washington Street is is well behind Washington Street that that BR Road it's fast moving traffic go down that because it's conservation L on one side there's nearly nothing there and they're both you know it's one lane in each Direction the effect of having to have a turn lane or widening the road in order to accommodate seniors turning in and out of where the senior center is um I can see that being a complicating factor for folks who are trying to drive there yeah that that's that's always a very and part of that I think I may mention there traffic is a big part of this too I I have well Washington I don't think it'll be the volume of traffic just the speed of the traffic there and is the road wide enough to accommodate two lanes in order to allow people to comfortably see in both directions when they're pulling in and pulling out we need need a minimum of uh I can't remember exactly what the number is but we need just about twice the distance for an elderly person to make a leftand turn into traffic would with a young fast moving we've dealt with really complicated things Route 16 is where Wellsley Senior Center sitting and it's we circulate everybody on site once you're on site you don't have to leave the site to go parking really important Route 16 is a crazy Road it's actually a state highway even though it goes right through the city Town Wellsley um we weren't that site was picked before we were brought on board and uh and we didn't do the study we did the final deign study had people recirculating on 16 which is not good solution um that needs to be looked at carefully um we generally don't unless there's up share amount of money available it is difficult is this is the Town Road everything's a Town Road okay well being on Town Road then Dan Van's going to take care of it did you hear that yeah we may it would be wise to um a little bit but I you know I'd like to got to look at it sure yeah it's a very good point I don't recommend separate inference for Vans because other people use it too it's complicated um it doesn't mean you can't do it just don't think it's best idea and when we get down to the sites it may be a moood point it's a good point and uh and so once you once we do all this stuff with a site the last thing is this thing and all this is is a not a recommendation it's it's a list of things that and by the way we start out let me explain quickly what the color coding is Orange is what we're building the SCH orange is program Administration we don't care but now we start testing I know my part the purple is um is Administration and I just made some guesses you're going to tell me who you're who you have to have there um so you go Administration and reception area is is the orange which right now kind of a standard things loue Library a cafe multi-purpose room game room with billiard tables and card conference room or just conference room and cards could be in the game room arts and crafts classroom I I suggested I think there's one there and then another classroom which is large enough to be divided into two parts and then we have a fitness area almost every Center in the last 10 years we've done a fitness there and it's and they're major very then we have a wellness area I did Wellness as orange because it is programmed but generally we like to keep it a little bit more out of the program activity area because a lot of sensitive things go on in could be celing could be family issues it could be Podiatry and blood work or whatever whatever you do there and then we have a the lighter blue is is the foods and very early on we like to make sure we understand are you always going to be catering in your food or will you be making your own food or but no matter what happens it's a commercial kitchen not just so you understand that doesn't meet public don't it'll be correct um and then you have pantry and receiving and we like to have receiving very not anywhere near your front door espe you do Meals on Wheels you do Meals on Wheels there's a lot of activity there and you might get Service drop off and things we don't want to confuse folks driving into the front door so we like to pull that you know I've been to senior centers where they have everything goes through the front door it's it's Madness um um group toilets we you know those are basic we always do a companion toilet we started those about 20 years ago when I learned that from I learned the name of it it's it's a unisex toilet but I learned the name from it for one of the directors because if you have a bank of men's and a bank of women and you have a spouse who's helping the other spouse you lose all your dignity you go in the boys room or the girls room yeah so we have what we call cany and it's a it's it's to be assisted by staff or friend or by a spouse or a partner so and those are never right next door to the game we keep them separate and the reason why we're separate is that we pull them away in order to have what we call a short circuit some people need to get the to quicker if they're all grouped together somewhere you have to go all the way over there you can slip into the one that's at the other end of of the space and U and generally on a two-story building that companion toilet on the second floor would have a shot and it's not for Fitness it's for accidents and it's and and they get used so those are all kinds that's that that dark blue area the lobby vesu is by the reception but that's a small Entry Way the lobby entrance way is really important because a lot of people who are being picked up maybe can't stand and wait for the car to come there's going to be a place sit down we'd like to have one both inside and outside it's covered outside one is nice weather the inside one at the vesle is for bad weather and you can always see the car that rides at the drop off so those are kinds of things that are really important as you start thinking about your program and then last but not least there's a whole list of support janitors closets required by code storage and by the way we don't Sprint on storage one thing you don't do in the multi-purpose room is just have a shallow closet bu them in a row because it's really tough to stack chairs and tables and there you do you do a large R you set up so everything fits in there and what's amazing is that my director's iel other uses there's a lot of stuff ends up in there you're guessing at a mult the multi-purpose room storage at 500 square feet yeah you might want to clear that whole room out for an event dance or sare or something and sticking chairs all over by 30 something like that yeah there could be two two different alloc yeah yeah yeah rough yeah because even if you have a large enough room you don't want everything being shoved down one end you can you the person who has played Tetris with tables and chairs fitting in that's the correct square footage it seems really big I think that's small uh yeah chairs and 20 tables and they rounds or squares well you're going to have a mix of both and you're going to need different ones for different events you don't want to have to pull all the rounds out in order to get to the rectangles and then put them all back and at what point in the process um networking cabling in terms of Wi-Fi internet well all these centers are one I center now but the main thing is that we don't put that in in the building spec because the town usually has a provider and we in the public bid process most towns want their provider providing cabling and and the uhing yeah and the reason for that is that let's say we have the contract to put in Cable in and if Town comes in with their Network and there's something wrong with the cable in you wouldn't believe a Hass you know and and the other thing we're doing a lot more of is we're we're we're not I don't a lot of the new technology now we don't have the cable no you know we go ni wir we do gear and most Elders now if you have computer classes in the old days we used to have just strict computer room with all these boxes on people come in with their with their iPads or their Microsoft Surface or you know laptops so what happens is that when you have a class everybody comes in with it or in some cases the town will supply those and you you sit at your table there's no cables or so we usually recommend security and and it be through a town Department especially security police because there's a lot of um you have different providers that overlooks your stuff and runs it but that's something that comes out at the bid time you know we'll sort that out with with staff figure that I have a question yeah um under under your fitness category yeah um um occum so so are we talking about a room that has um all the the equipment in it you know like treadmill and are we talking like a classroom something no it's it's got your equipment and and in some cases there's enough room in there for some floor stretching and things but most aerobic type like what do you call that stuff that makes all really zoom up sorry I don't do I place squash I know U we do that in the multi-purpose room okay and the reason for that is because you got a lot more room spread out and this room is not that large that you get a cou you know you get two or three treadmills and U couple of bikes and some um stationary weight um are they used to the extent that classes you know exercise classes are are used I mean well I mean this is sort of like what I do you know at different senior centers and and um like when I go to chelsford I mean I don't I don't exercise in chelsford I play bridge in chelsford but um there is a there is a fitness room that I see almost no one using and then right next to it is is another room with with a a class you know some sort of Fitness class uh two things one is I know for old um uh the two things that happen if it's programmed correctly and you have you have an advisor about I can tell you right now the fitness centers are very busy and not the just starting up it takes a l um and there's a lot of activity in that and it's usually because there's also some early on everybody should be certified to use it you know you have to go through the learning process and that and it is used from some centers I know one poio I mean there's people in there the Center opens at 8:30 and their and four or five people there's a group that get together do it it is how you program if you don't program right it'll be dead as door down but classrooms will be that way too well uh ducksbury was a good example that this is early on in our design process before we really understood how important it is had activity on the second floor so we put all the classrooms on the second floor and they were dark unless there was a class going on was what we do now is put the fitness Game Room part area on the second floor we have a multi-purpose room Cafe library and lounge and re and recept on the first floor and that all keeps it keeps the center what we call Synergy and um I always like to say the when you come into the reception desk it's really W loud busy but then you can wander off through an open space to a quieter space and ultimately into the library where it's very quiet but it's all open and everybody sees everybody doing something that's why we have a lot of transparency with blacks and that that really makes it much more inviting and that also makes the problem I have with wilham is that you don't get to see Fitness room the way it laid out whereas if you go the long midle it's all glass into the fitness Room everybody can see everybody working out not aerobics different a lot of people don't like to be watched yeah I know that's you know Katie and I've already talked about that whole whole idea of blasting anybody being out to see into you know as you're as you're doing your line dancing and messing up your steps you know you just you should understand that that was an issue in North Andover but you understand that that Center was designed bid and awarded before the new director came and you know the town told her you can't redesign we said how about if we designed the second floor for you it's not as it cost maybe $155,000 to rearrange things so she laid it out with and the glasses part of it she doesn't like the glasses but I can assure you that's her in fact she told Dan when we were out there trying to get this thing closed out with the contractor that she said why didn't we have the glass down B here that's where it was but understand it's very difficult to be fair about it it's North Andover is the one that has the group fitness room right next to the fitness equipment room and that one has the glass ball between it yeah and that's not the way the room that has the in took all the side room was supposed to have the workout room is and she the the flooring material is all wrong because fness what was supposed to be going on the flo Texs right was very smooth right and but you know that's a long story I don't want to go too deep into it but to be fair about it for Kathy she came in late she felt she had to write the redesign the whole Center and the town said we bid it we bid it four months ago can you imagine opening it back up to you know here Mr contractor let's redesign it and give us your price so I think that the yeah I mean it's going to be a complicated the tradeoff between privacy and um and openness and distractability and de right and there are going to be trade-offs which rooms are easily visible from the outside and which rooms absolutely AR and that would be part of this whole design and um what we have found though in the past for a lot of Elders when they come in they'll see you know Susie working out say you know I'll ask her what it's like you know and if if you hide it behind a wall you you have to have some transparency if you go to long that's what I'd like to do we have three centers to go see two of which we designed because they're nearby and and llo which is brand new and and um that's a great director there she was very involved in that and it's really interesting LEL is a 20,000 Foot Center 23,000 all of one level you'll see where the problem is not a criticize not criticizing the town for what they did we didn't get that we interviewed we were preferred firm but they said we be willing to build a 20,000 Foot Center on one floor and I said no now I'm very opinionated I guess you are but you know what the problem is you going to see if when you're done you're not going to be you you felt you wouldn't be satisfied at the end no it would not be appropriate for the user group right if you got to walk down 150t quarter as a senior with a walker do it's it's a very serious problem so you really restrict the use of your programs to people who can't get down I think one of the biggest things we learned when we went through the process of interviewing you know the AR civil Architects the experts in the field was the fact that we were all surprised the two story alternative was the better solution we all all went into I well I didn't went with thinking that it would be a single story just because you're thinking that's people going to move better on one floor you forget the the elevator answers the and the stairs your concept of the open stairs and the open 10 flight to day guys welcome and and I think that's as we've evolved the concept you know I think when we were originally talking we were talking in the 8 to 10,000 like couple years ago 8 to 10,000 in that in that size range I'm a fan of one story now that we're talking about a larger 12 as soon as you hit 12 also your footprint it BEC becomes economical but it may not be in the budget you know we have to we have to watch that budget too what what is the you care about the budget people I never had no so a couple of things I'm I'm noticing as I'm reflecting upon this um so you've got three stations for reception is that am I reading that correctly your occy well s all suggested no tell us yeah all right um because one of the things that we had right right yeah we we need space at least for two and three sounds better um so is the potential to have a town social worker so we may need more than six spots for administration because we have a town social worker who will need part of her time who goes outside the center or Works within the center um she works within the Center wellness might what the wellness no I'm gonna that out space um within that and um there's also some talk of putting the veterans agent in this spot so based on the period of time that both the veterans agent and the social worker because social worker splits her time between town hall and here um a it would need to be a space that's conducive to private conversation so it would need to be its own space but one that would have like a flex work situation could probably work I'm not getting into real details well that's good to know because you know and Veterans is a really important thing it was really huge for Korea and World War II World War II is kind of fading out I'm of the Vietnam era um but the GF War you tell them to go to the senior center think you're nuts but they'll come they need help what we did in um long was said we made a separate entrance for veterans in the town nurse because they the town nurses they actually had a town nurse and they're seeing kids and we don't want sick kids coming into sen so we said let's put the veteran because both it's connected to the senior center we put the veteran with the nurse because that way the young vets are walking into that's like my I'm 77 considered old I I don't consider myself old but I'm old and uh 35 a 35-year-old vet coming in a bunch of old people so that's what we did now lots of our centers have vet offices and um Wellsley has but they actually have a side entrance that was an egress entrance you know for getting out of the center and the vs all come through that not that they're afraid of us but this is an obvious question the um the difference between the NS net square feet and grow square feet the 2500 square ft or so what what is that wall for walls mechanical space that we're not common area space sometime you don't figure a little got 20% a good number yeah it it'll reduce our average is is 14% when we get done it's because we are very open plan we don't create a lot of so so this is just just for so 15,000 ft would be the size of the building and 12,000 Fe is how much usable your net your net out of that and and and over time when we when the plans get done we've calculated this out we between 11 and 133% is our Rose to net and and that's very efficient there's a lot of centers that are 20 25% and part of it is because if you look at our centers they're they're fairly traditional looking you know they have cable grot all of our expens it cost let's say it cost $400 a square foot why am I paying $400 that's cheap $400 wor public yeah know it's let's say $500 anyhow yeah I know what it is I if you're building well in ucket it's it's $2,000 so here's what the deal is we create a g at space and if I don't know whether you've seen it if you've been wam it you can play you could Bowl up there but we have our eru up there we have a lot of stuff up there we have storage up there we don't take the elevator up there because it cost another 80,000 bucks to do that but what we do is that we're not paying I'm interested in your answer yeah we're not paying a lot of money to have that on the main floor and utilizing and we're utilizing empty space with a cable group and because these buildings were steel they don't have to be steel we' we've done steel buildings with a wood trust system the problem with the wood trust thing is that you're fallling over that stuff all the time webbing and yeah Wellsley is a wood trust webbing in there you can't get we have we do boxing on that third floor FS I want to talk to you about the mechanical room when you're done yeah so the idea is that we you see my mechanical space is very small it's electrical and that's probably more and the elevator mechanical now in the blue I didn't get through this electric sprink machine room yeah yeah but you're not counting the No No in this there's no way here yes it's highight majority is in the space see that but you don't put a squ what is well I'm giving you a bonus on this I'm complimenting here I saw that that third floor mechanical in my estimation that was essentially building a third floor it yeah it's the same exact steel system it's got a deck it's got all the piping incredible coordination of electrical work and piping the whole bit to get to that stuff so we did a Model that every wire going through there why don't you take credit for that as part of the square footage of the building in my estimation it is you're crediting you're only counting your first and second floor you're basically built another floor it's every single building that has a Gable on but if it were a pure Gable didn't have that mechanical space you to address exterior equipment fed through or do something El 500 ft on the first floor right why don't why doesn't CN take credit for that space when you count it it's it's Blended in it all ends up being in the number takes up the roof space we're just using roof space I I don't count it because it's not occupied space we're not heating it well they do heat it that thing's got everything in it yeah I mean it has to be heated with all the piping and everything well it's r0 we put a little bit I just thought it was incredible yeah i' love that yeah actually want to go Bing there's a window up back and you can see the go course I'll walk you through the the blue section here I want to mention a couple things arts and crafts and classrooms need real storage not a closet real storage we usually like to find design and and this is a personal thing for to look at we like to do the classrooms with without doors into the storage room so people can what happens is let's say in in wilam they're having a quilting class everybody has their stuff in a plastic and in the storage closet is 22 in deep shells you can take your tub put it up there and the next time you have your class you come take your tub back out and you work on when you're carrying that if you put doors on it it gets it's complicated and and you can look in it and see where your tub is you got your name on it and that's just an example there's a lot of certain things some of the rooms they'll use it for light weight Fitness so they have little barbells or they have their P up yoga mats that they'll pull up and the the operation of the center is decided by the director so you may if you got a big yoga class if a multi-purpose room it could also be in a 500 foot classroom and we generally do our floors using something that people if not disar there um I want to mention exterior storage we provide exterior storage which is rated two hours and vented to the outside because what happens is I find that Dan would never do this Dan Van but we find snow blowers in the vestibule shovels salt um all kinds of things we want a nice separate space for that that's accessible for for the maintenance of the site and it should be right near the front door because that's where most the early clean up is and you can park a snowballer in there if you want we also recommend exterior storage out near the we like outdoor space patio or what have you um there's a lot of things that go there if you do a b Port you need to have stuff for that so we have an outside storage area that's over on the side where the out where the activities are outside and um and it's really good to plan those in so we we we put it on your list and then in the process of Designing this it'll be like it'll be like a menu yes no we really want it but now the budget's a problem maybe we can make that a little smaller put it somewhere else um so those are all issues that I want you all thinking about and the reason why we color codeing is that the next time you see this and you and we start coming up with you know you'll Feed Us the people we will come with a diagram JC diagram and all this will now be done proportionately as an element on a plant like this and you'll see oh all that red stuff is the stuff we talked about here and look how big the multi-purpose room is compared to to a classroom and and what we do is we put them it's almost like you take a you cut them off rearrange them we will show how thej we recommend and then you'll tell us you know I really I want the classrooms all together what so we start moving those around and it'll all be in color by the time you get a schematic plan it'll be a plan that looks like a building and all the floor plans will still have that color so you'll identify immediately where where you are where storage is where bathrooms are because it's not just for this committee a lot of you guys read plans understand them but ultimately it needs to be shown to the public and that brings me up to the the need to really as soon as we start getting a handle on this and I know we're online and that's good but we need to start there's nothing more important than communicating what you have you don't arrive with a surprise so everybody needs to help and there will be negative positive and ups and downs but if you don't start that early on it'll be a roadblock you down Road how do you think about like outdoor like patios or linking the inside of the building to and you know off the back side of the building there might be I don't know bot coat or pickle ball courts or whatever how do you think about that second entrance or exit or we we provide a lot of physical doors out onto the paos and they're locked until the Center opens but we don't have we they tend not to have the parking lot in the middle of all that so people are not wandering almost you'll see you'll see both long meal wilam as well as North was whoever was in that those Pao areas there somebody wants to walk around the building comes through the back door yeah they can do that but it's not an entrance and but we want to make sure like the library Lounge almost always has access to the patio it's a very important connection and the multi-purpose room what we've been designing lately is that we actually have a large foldable partition that boltens up between the multi-purpose room and the patio so you can have outdoor events where speaker or music can be played in that area inside the building people out on the p and if you go to Long mil it's a raise performance space in the multi-purpose room which when you turn around and open up outside it's a ray space with an outside area that you can do an event with people sitting out there you can see 25 30 40 people in the patio the other issue is is the U lost my good shut who talking access yeah but access is really important and and the nice thing about willah is you look out on the seventh green really nice um and so far by the way we took all the windows on that side of the building and made them tempered stand the golfers AR best remove the tea remove the tea a little bit so they wouldn't be in our building but but we it's just can I go back so tell me what group toilets means well when you have 150 to 200 people we we have to have multiple stalls so we have a group ladies group Men and they usually have four stalls for the women two stalls for the men and year old what mean by group because we saw something different interesting yeah I saw that politically I'm not sure what the answer is um where you just do not cannot label men's and ladies and men's and women's anymore unisex Who Sold you on that it's nobody sold me oh good yeah we talking about sber we don't we have we have we have unisex toilets any any male female can music yeah I mean that's what you had your but we don't have boys and girls fighting over the stall yeah and also toilets are very for me it's a very sensitive thing the bathrooms um you go to a lot of senior centers and all these stalls all the doors open inward that's the typical design yeah what happens when an elderly person falls inside Falls up against the door you can't get in yeah so we open all our doors outwards what happens if somebody's walking by the door and the door swings gets them on a wheelchair then we're going down the area on a wheelchair walk the door swings up you know how many classrooms have to we swinging out how many people get hit talking but you're talking about stall doors the bathroom doors into the hallway in fact if you go to longm we don't even have doors to the bathroom yeah they're like an airport that's good if you have enough space the problem is that takes that's not easy it takes a lot of space yeah and we we are building a 30,000 Foot Center so we're able to do that also um our handicap spaces now we use um what is it called the hand Wes hand when I'm in there any no you lock it you have ch and when you lock it it says um but so the group toil is is typically what we're used to seeing on everyday basis doesn't address any new potential but I understand we have we have they are labeled men's and women's yes but we also have toilet centerx anybody sees it boy and girl we just don't like boys and girls in the same I my goodness here we'll get not it's not the TRN anymore yeah yeah yeah not like the RAC trck so the only other thing I I think I'd like to bring and obv this is a living working document something I'd like to bring into it from the beginning as well is um I've met with the disabilities commission and um they are interested in having a more robust equipment lending program in air um most senior centers have four or five walkers four or five wheelchairs four or five canes whatever and you know i' I've seen them shoved in the end of the stairs area and oh yeah they're all over the place right we have designed it at the service entrance where we actually have a hose set up too so when equipment's dropped off it can be cleaned okay and we have about we've designed it I can't remember what Center it was right now I think it was in Duck um because it was it's a big deal if you ever come to my lecture I'll show you how they put it in the closets and everywhere right um the right place for it is at the service interest because it's you can lend it out through the center but drop people people the problem you'll get is that people say oh I'll just drop it off Senior Center you know 8:00 at night right right and and you you got it all sitting out there and you can set up a formal way of doing that where we have a little covered area where people can drop off and it's sorted out in the day the problem is you gotta you got to have some control on that because it gets out of hand right so I think they're looking to the senior center to be able to participate in in the sort of standard senior center pieces but the disab and I don't want to speak bra speakers the disabilities commission is really looking to get into the larger um disability communities needs Hoyer lifts electric wheelchairs they're looking to get into something on a little bit larger scale so um and that is a piece that's a part of the Senior Center Mission there's a lot of overlap there's a little bit of additional there as well so um when we met last and we were trying to see how would we propose this um they were thinking we were thinking again off the service entrance but maybe something more akin to like a onecar garage size um that would have storage run on on either side that you accommodate that becomes an operational thing for you to figure out because I'll be really careful about Le you know I I presented that to the disabilities commission and that would be their initiative then rather than mine we we have an employee who's about AG she has and that's one reason why we do 3 fo6 Doors right because a lot of these ELC wheelchairs don't F through the Ada door perod you lose your hands and the other thing about it is they require special charging right and and they're actually usually the reason why they're not good for Lending is because they're all custom for particular user especially if you're a quad or or parle um and U but that's an operational thing that you can sort out with the commission right um because one thing you'll have to do the problem with electric ones is that they're just too they're so custom and by the way 152 right right usually they're they're handled through medic or meditare I think but but but Walkers wheelchairs toilet system deals that is really it canes U crutches all kinds of things the problem is that some centers I've been to they can't even get into the room they're they're created for them because they they take too much right and and that's and there's a lending process where it could other places right that's why the disabilities commission is wanting to and I'm sorry I should just let you say but the disabilities commission is wanting to sort of lead that process because they want an accessory concept but it's for them they want to make it a big part of their mission and their contribution is to be able to get into that in a lot more detail in depth and you want a cleaning area too people drop stuff off it needs to be cleaned you don't want it in there until it's been clean we have we we have a little to work out still because I'm as you say I I have a child who's confined to a wheelchair and I know what it takes to maintain those electric wheelchairs I think we're looking more like the electric scooter you know like the you can go to and buy a four fourwh Drive scooter and get around on it I think that's where I'm going to try to steer them more to as to dealing with the electric wheelchairs we had people that wanted to donate electric hospital beds so I can't that stupid and also understand for the scooters you need a charging station setup and for the electro beds well you don't you don't you won't have but but those you just plug them in um yeah and by the way they're very valuable but it's really we're talking two or three car um but let's let's put it it's in the program and and and I think a wash bay is really important power wash set up and best to be outside but then there's drainage and things like that we sort out but that's a really good point thank you for bringing it up we'll add it in we do have in this collection of spaces there is Storage for a limited amount of medical equipment MH like if you go to wilam there's a door underneath the stair and there's a little area there for Walkers and things like that um did you did you want to talk a little bit about the walking Track around or not save that for another be on the site I I was know I so I I absolutely love your buildings like the buildings you built are just to me the Pinnacle of what they can and should do one of the things that got a lot of traction in our previous phase um was the idea of the gym with the indoor walk we fabulous we've left that idea um just to the way that phase closed out we've left that phase um but I was really thinking creatively and this committee already knows that I come up with some like wild crazy out of the box ideas and back you have a PhD that must be the problem so one of the things I was you know thinking the the sort of new Farmhouse or whatever look right that a lot of these buildings are could there be something where it's designed with what would look just like a wraparound farmer porch on it I and I know it's a wild idea I know it is and Ken's laughing at me but I know it's a wild idea but that it could be built in that there is a covered and protected area that could because I know when I have done walking programs when I have worked at other communities they're wildly successful in the winter it's crazy in in long metal yeah and when you have a big commun when you have a big building on one floor you can design your hallways such that you can really do indoor walking like you can have an indoor walking Track essentially just by walking up and down all your hallways you won't have that um you won't have that on a twostory building right because you're making it much more efficient nicer for the people that can but but but you know this is an interesting idea um what happens right now in longm is that we have walkers we have fast Walkers we have joggers uh it it and it's I think it's eight times around for a mile or something like that um the problem one thing we thought about for a really large multi-purpose room is creating a aligned area that goes around the perimeter of the room we're not that big right but you know I I tell you right now let's let let's let's get us into the site let's put it on our list we'll put we'll get into the site that we're going to end up with eventually and that might clue us as to how one of the really neat things I just saw was was this outfit called Mark andage which is right near the squash book where I play in in Kean they have a covered it's it's very simple it's it's a simple frame system with with like unru if you will with a roof over it and it goes between buildings if you will because it's winter and one time they had glass on it you can walk all that L and there may be a real cool idea of create a patio area which has a zone that goes around it that could do that just I'd love to think creatively about solar panels on oh there you go melt the snow withar I mean how I was thinking it clear of snow the whole thing how I was thinking of it was can you put a rectangular or Square Building inside of a walking oval so that the oval kind of circles the entire building and is part of the interior of the building but not twice this is going to be fun this gets the Architects uses it's GNA push everything money Mone money wor I like the money it push everything further out man we're trying to get people close to the how you going to might only be like wide we'll put on our list we'll put on our list I like theide my bra and also it could be quite honestly it could be a porch you know a covered area like say along the patio which goes through the back side of the multi-purpose room so you you you you go like this back around go like this and go back around and that my an option weather is a real big thing in New England you know can put your Canever on the second floor build the first floor here can weer out the second floor bring I tell all hearing this stuff getting into our list digesting it coming back with some ideas from us um we don't know what the building looks like yet because we haven't drawn it no we know pretty much what his buildings look like you we just Twisted Kentucky Kentucky your picture doesn't look like any New England the problem with New England we run into there's like appc do some really fun flat roof things and kind of more contemporary most of our communities are traditional people New England and there's a big problem in long midle we had a member of the committee who absolutely we had to have plaum Windows everywhere what padium the round circle at the the round circle a true Palladium is two short ones with round one on top this guy just wanted all the windows out which are very expensive by the way but also made zero cents for a colonial type building but um there was a college nearby that had some buildings that Ling window we run into that when the Sun hits a certain point in the day that you can't they're hard to shade yeah yeah I have that we have that one by my my desk it's horrible to shade I nice curve uh our our offices are the second floor of a a former Savings Bank and it was the cor it was the chairman of the board is one window is a huge giant o Circle the other one where he says is a half circle yeah and the sun rises right right my anyhow that we so I think we've got a lot of fun things to look at and I'm going to send out a meeting note from this meeting and I'm going to have a list of potential meeting dates okay to give you that the date to be determined but the the the role of the I I'll just tell you quickly I I I said 10 of I'm going to send this out I have right now 10 meetings lined up it could be more and I say first one was a kickoff which talk about programming and um and site um the the second meeting would be much more involved in site I'm going to send this out as and you can distribute to everybody the fourth meeting would I suggest a tour for whoever can make it and I will and what I want you to do is go on these tours with us and we'll get lost when you Corner the senior director you want to you want to ask them what do you like and what you don't like and I don't want to be around I hate being criticized but but also it's I don't want to be one I don't want to influence the director they'll tell you the straight poo and and and you already heard some of that um so lllo I think is really important because it's a single story large building and and there's an interesting concept when we and I and I'll be this is one thing I'm really hard on about I don't use any ceramic to it's extremely dangerous and not only that but you have a greater chance of breaking by 20 to 30% greater chance of breaking a bone falling on TI they do a carpet or even on lenol which is a socer uh tile also does not absorb sound which is a big problem and in in high frequency background sound is something we control very aggressively and you'll you'll see that when you go on these tours um then meeting number five would be is to wrap because you've seen these centers and you've answered these questions for yourself the list of them think about we want to wrap up that program with you and the side Anis okay and then no I'm going to walk you through number six would be how do we include the community for strategy if we call it public relations but the community I know they can be on these T that's great we can all hear that but what's also important is to formally go out and say we've really worked hard in this these are all the options we looked at this is how we came to our conclusion because when you get to town meeting you don't want somebody saying well I really like the site behind DPW and we could exp we'll have our reasons why that wasn't wasn't positive but we can start talking to the community about it way ahead of town meeting surprises at town meeting are awful number seven final strategy in a program uh to pull it off all together uh number eight we'd like to walk through the schematic plans and elevations or whatever it might look like um and this is just my suggestion I'm going to send this out to you number nine would be another neighborhood CommunityWide showing the actual schematic design and when we do that we do complete modeling three-dimensional full color it looks just like the real they not just concept PL she taking it's right well it's not it's it's not a final design but it's but people get you can walk right in the front door and see what it looks like and that's in this package yeah and then and then U and a presentation to the Selectmen if they're not already in public and um ultimately to town meeting which the longer you wait the more expensive it is we're not trying to push you but I think if we can make fall to meeting because here's how here's how it works in this business we need four to five months to put the whole package together and we we love the bid late winter because a lot of the contractors are looking to fill their dance CL we don't mind bidding in the fall but we can make the spring bid that's the best the the fall bid what happens is there's all kinds of things that holds it up and then suddenly you're trying to pour concrete in December which we can do by the way we do it a lot but I don't recommend it it's expensive yeah and and then you got winter conditions which is a lot more expensive whereas if we can bid late winter then we're enclosed because it's a 14-month bid per period so you're going to go back through the winter but now we're enclosed and and heated you know in contractor we'll be heating it we'll be dryw and painted all all that kind of stuff so if we can hit down and and if you you are willing to talk to us we will walk you through the design um but that's that's a process and that's my goal for you and I'm going to send this out I'm just going to add some of our comments today and I'm going to send this out as our meeting note number one and then what I have is every single meeting within four or five days of that meeting you'll get a complete detailed note and I say at the end any exceptions and or omissions that you note please inform us so we can correct it because um you're hearing what I hear but you I'm hearing what I hear you're hearing maybe something different so we we want to make sure that our final accepted meeting notes everybody's on Bo all right okay and and thank you for this time more questions so yeah so I mean you you've listed one through seven or eight or many um and what time frame are we talking about between well I didn't put the dates on it I'd love the WAP this thing by order to get it what's your time frame for War four two weeks prior for the town meeting which would typically be at the end of October yeah we'd love to have this thing wrapped by mid September no just and 2024 but yes the town manager has not ruled out the possibility of having a special town meeting for the purpose of this so yeah the the normal town meeting would be in mid to late October a special time meeting it would be best if it was end of September only because that gives us more time for bidding it get through the bid unless you go if you go back out for another architect which you're welcome that's the way it's set up you can certainly do that that unfortunately is the earlier you can get appr the sooner you can go back through that selection process because it's a 6 to 8 we process to go through you had that's why we're going conv you to work with us but um but really by mid to late September there's a couple minor holidays in the summer but for working drawings we'll be working through yeah in labor yeah kids are going to Tin her so the deal the other deal is too is that for doing the working drawings there's a lot of stress around Christmas and New Year with my subcontractors so we have the quicker we can get them hooked up and working um I don't see a problem bidding this late February mid-march and and uh they can and and because the the spec has the front end will have the contract in it once you select the contractors for the bid you know the bidding takes 68 weeks I don't like to rush it so eight weeks is better um I want these guys to have a lot of time uh you get the file sub bids and the file sub bids go to the generals and then the generals put it all together once you select a general and you don't have a lot of people screaming at each other um the contract's all set you fill it in because it's in the SP it's all done any Contra no well we go with sometimes they're AIA sometimes they're there's a lot of state standard contracts that we work with um and um so because who's your Town Council he it's a Amy Quest KP law now used to be what the name before well c p yeah Donnie Donny Paige was one of my best friends he's passed away and Lenny Co cop they both worked with my my first wife and a law firm um and they're they were great guys and I had a great relationship with them the The Firm now is divulged is he on his own is he still KP it's called KP law but I can cannot tell you how many princip what the principles are well I can tell you that they have some there two or three that work they have some odd problems this this contract that whoever worked on it was just fine with us but contract was that the one I signed to to do this two guys work on oh you guys did it so you're guil well you did a good job I I I mocked around with it but I didn't it was it was well done um cman page has a strange request for final design and I won't agree with it good and we'll talk I mean I'll give up the job before I do it they have some really and um and by the way I've worked a lot with kpo we always found resoled um okay I have a question backing up um you one of one of your 10 was uh visiting other sites yeah you know i' I've been taking notes as to you know where I want to go and oh you can go I'll go anywhere with um but but but I you know the question is are we going to go as a group or should I just you know go on my own or well we often do it as a group yeah but you can certainly go on your own take that list with you you know this list is really helpful and and it's from years of we've added to it over the years in fact I hav't really looked at it closely to see what there's there's quite of it's three type pages of every issue that we've come across in our a minute my 40 Years of doing this up front about in a long time um and um and these are not a lot of this is in COA n you know I presented with n is the national station Institute of senior Serv and NCO is National Cil n and NCO is the mass conso and a lot of this comes from interaction with those people it isn't isn't isn't my ego it's ugly architects yeah well let me know if you find one let me know I'd like to meet him um so are you an architect no but work with a few um this this is a really good list and you can go on your own absolutely and pick any you know there's lots of interesting centers around and and that's because you often glasses Bridge is a big deal and in long metal there's a huge fight with the bridge friend they wanted a room for 60 to 75 people in the playr so far they've not got more than 40 but and we we created a classroom that could be we suggesting that here you move the partition in it's much bigger room that's one that has the U teaching Kitchen in which is widely successful whereas jolio it's not used much because it's it's up to programming what they do in in Longo is they bring in chefs from different restaurants and they bring in their favorite and they talk about how you do small portions for us people that friend kids so so in terms of our next meeting that one is focused really more on the program and more on state selection yeah what are the what are the things we need to do before we can script about me like I'm trying to think of what the time frame is for that next meeting well I think you need to work with the committee maybe communicate back and forth include us if you wish I'd like to hear how you look this is a suggestion no I I sized it around 9,000 people it's a size I and I don't know do you have a projected growth for town at all I don't have projected growth I can get that yeah I do have um what's your percent senior right now is pretty high so we're right about 9,000 people and we have just over 2,000 seniors in about 20 25% 25% yeah that's about right and it's growing it if you go down the cape it's 48% crazy um and um so right now the problem that we have to face is I'd like to know is there more development space in town that people can be adding more housing or more Apartments because if you're really much if you're kind of if you're Frozen in your space we don't have to project out too far but I can tell you right now this Center should be designed for 20 years and and and it will be here 50 years from now um now it could be if you go to um Irving all in north um North what's to just north of north of Irving yeah North Northfield Northfield yes thank you northv we we did the study for Northfield we did the study for Irving Irving built their first guess what norfield said he we'll just go down Irving so that's that's that's that's fine but but I think there ought to be a charge for that but but you should look and see are there surrounding communities and say oh you know we'd like to be a part of that those are things that we so you have to start much aware of taking those under consider stay with montue it was the little town across the river you know from Jers Falls this is Dan I I have data from our water master plan with population growth projections yeah I can get that yeah and okay and Alan U gave me some numbers on the senior population and and uh you know expected rate of growth so I think we'll be able to come up yeah that'd be very helpful because part of explaining a town meeting is why is it so big or why is it so small I mean it all you spend a lot I I spent my life in town meetings and they can get very exciting you know and there's a strategy that this committee the COA needs to take on when when you go the town meeting is how you you grab a hold of the town meeting quickly before somebody barrels into and blows it all up which happened in Fall um just we had a wonderful director who was inly for priest it just wasn't wasn't take control so in terms of scheduling the next meeting are we looking two weeks out three weeks so not every meeting we need to have will have you you should have a meeting after this we should fill out that that those the paperwork gave well and we'll the best we can we're gonna feed you Dan's gonna feed everybody his Dan Dan you have he has these things if you can look at what he knows like hydrology utilities and and and Dan can advise you as to what is reasonably Within Reach and what isn't so it affect whether or plus three or minus three it it is really a great way of doing this because it does come up with a consensus it's pretty good and sometimes you have not I'm not saying it's you but could be Dan what do you think in terms of compiling your time to compile that information that the rest of the group would want when they're looking at this Matrix piece um when would when's a reasonable time for us to share all that information and meet again I should be able to get to that this week get it out by the end of the week I don't think it's a lot and then we could either schedule late next week or early following week I'll send this out you you put in dates for me right lot will be benative as as things get resolved but I I have rough 10 meetings it might be 12 it might be six um usually this is this is like a birthing process complicated sometimes is easy like we need the committee needs to have another meeting before we meet again yeah with John yes that would be great so um you could feed me your so today's the 15th right um do we want to Thursday the 2 or the following week the week after Memorial Day or before when is Memorial Day the 27th why don't we do it the the following week unless you guys want to meet again next week that's fine well if you meet before that would allow us to have our meeting not too long after four days after five days I'm trying to meet next week with people want to meet next week um that's oh I think Ellen has stepped away but I don't remember what day Ellen comes back um but you could always join us via Zoom I'm good for next week next week okay so um and we were thinking Wednesdays were better right for Dan and Dave typically during Thursdays are a problem for me well this is the meeting that we scheduled yeah but also you meet Wednesdays work great great for us okay do we want to are we to assume that you'll be able to make an in person at each of the meetings oh we'll come that's good I D likes the mileage he get 60 cents a mile make any money on that Wednesday but we're close compared um I think six is I grew up in Nashville so I'm very familiar with all right um so I I'm going to suggest that we table item number six which was getting um the town manager's office asked that we sooner rather than later come before the select board to give them an update on where we are um so how about after the first yeah well and also yeah you got a lot to do but also if you guys meet and we meet one more time you'll have a lot of stuff for them right so when did they go to summer schedule it's not in June right is it just July and August correct okay so I think I think if we could get on one of their two June meetings on their agenda I think that would be that would be good um that way because the July and August ones there's only one month so they get and the board will change the new the new board will be constituted by then yeah you have a for the we meet get oh yes it's welcome COA if you read it from all the way over here welcome COA all lower case and it's it's the COA one COA guest guest there's a couple of networks going on in here including concrete housing is above us so you yeah okay um there's no public here so well we've lost our public oh yes and wanted to yeah yeah I just I just wanted to say to everybody and um that um we're we're forming a friends of the COA group and we'll have an organizational meeting on June 11th at 1 o'clock here exent I announced it yesterday at the COA board meeting too yeah is that a 5013c or will be yeah is it already registered or is it not no no this is just this is an initial formulation you know really to do that and once you get your 513c I give you an idea theyve raised fortune in W sh amazing shocked I mean and same thing in Long Mar vir she's like a little bull in the china shop but let me tell you she every time I turn around we want to add this to the project we just got $500,000 I think just before he passed away the founder friendly basically donated the gym it was pretty ni steal yeah and by the way there's there there's a lot of sleepers you hear that story no but I know I know that butt and Chris Blake I think yes yes the Blake Blakeley or Blakes yeah very nice yeah and and you know I I just wanted to be clear that I can't like lead this group because I'm I'm part of this and and I I really need like your spouses and your friends and you know whoever to come to that find a local billion help us out you have a couple table yeah there you go well you know what happened you know you know what happened in Townson you WR a check for the whole thing Library Senior Center kind the addition we put in yeah I know he he a what it wasn't Tupperware or something it was some but they were together so Mr Stone and Mr Tupper were in business together and then they decided Mr Tupper wanted to do more business to Consumer and Mr Stone wanted to say businesses to business and so they separated and went there must have ster like containers my garage filled we have wow that's great well thank you guys you everyone motion to okay second all in favor thank you everyone