welcome um today is Wednesday April 24th at 6: pm and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection and building committee this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance Andor participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems inter up the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 375 414 6055 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about participation please contact Carly antonellis assistant Town manager at ATM a.m. us or 978 772 8220 extension 100 prior to the meeting so I will call us to order at 604 p.m. welcome everybody and let's see 1 2 3 4 and Ellen makes five um that does give us a quorum so um I guess the first item is the approval of the agenda can I get a is there anyone would like to make changes to the agenda can I get an approval to accept the agenda or a motion to accept the agenda I move that we accept the agenda as printed second all in favor I I I CH says I all right um and then I guess we need oh here comes Ken as well yeah we need Ellen yeah we need Ellen to say I as well she's muted but she is muted uh I I believe she wasn't feeling well tonight so maybe she's oh here she comes okay thank you Ellen I figure out how to unmute it um Okay so that brings us to approval of the minutes uh I believe everybody received um the February 29th March 25th and April 4th meeting minutes and April 4th is actually the meeting that got cancelled I wasn't sure if procedurally we even needed to approve anything from that uh I just wanted to put it on there just in case uh did anybody have any questions about the February 29th minutes we'll start with those no all right can I get a motion to approve I that we uh approve the meeting minute from the February 29th 2024 meeting second all in favor I I says I all right uh and then the second set of minutes that we outstanding is March 25th thank you Dennis for doing those um any questions or revisions to those nope nope okay can I get a motion to approve them I'll make a motion to approve the March 25th minutes of the senior center site selection ability committee great second okay all in favor I hi all right great wonderful all right so um Dan do you want to offer an update on the RFP for privately owned lader I guess that came in Carly I'm happy to do that too since make you talk about the other ones so we did have um an RFP issued this is the second one we've actually done in this project um a request to private land owners that was advertised both on the town website the town Facebook page the senior center Facebook page as well as through um Dan what's the name of the the um the state Central register there we go that's the word yes the central register yep for um asking if any private land owners had land that met the criteria that we set forth by the committee uh there were no responses to that um so uh that was due April 12th um so that pretty much leaves us with um the three town-owned sites that we have been focusing on in the interim uh I suppose the committee could say we're definitely only looking at those or I suppose you could say you wanted to reach out to someone specific but I mean I think my opinion at least is that people have had now two chances um over the last two years to you know express interest in in this project but what do you guys think and I think we move forward with the three that we know um and you know just kind of just move forward trying to make the best decision possible based on what we have um yeah I mean the only caveat to that is if we get somebody later on who now jumps up and says oh what about this and I I guess we will address that if and when that should occur but between now and then I think they're just yeah I agree and I think um you know once we're going to have the architect on board too and and we'll explain it later on but he's already been kind of catching up to speed on some of the committee's work but you know show him some of the sites that we kind of had as what we what do we call them it's like uh B like in the in the B category you know which you know it's a good a potentially good site but you would need another site so as we also show him the the ones that we have on Strictly Town owned land I think it' be good to get his opinions too I was thinking um it's kind of disappointing I guess that we yeah but land is so rare and so difficult to get your hands on you know for anybody at this point in time um we didn't get even get an inkling I guess there was some interest but nothing really materialized and nobody was interested in filling out the it just never came to a full application or anything like that I guess so no full right just just yeah I mean mik I think we've got a lot to do here on the the land that we have and I like that idea of maybe looking at the B's as well but I think the Three A's might be enough to sortly get us going um I feel that no matter what we do with the architect at this point in time it's it's going to be beneficial because we're going to learn so much from Landing a building or figuring out uh your you know your angles with the program and things like that keep going great yeah I agree and just EO Dennis's point I think until we have utilized the resources of the architect of course we'll keep an open mind for due diligence but I think once resources have been spent on the architect focused on these three properties I think we kind of lock ourselves in and move forward y all right that makes sense to me all right um so let's see update on due diligence for town-owned sites so the two main parts of that uh I don't believe there was anything for Brook Street that we were that was outstanding um we did inquire um with the town manager's office he was going to seek the opinion of Town Council regarding the um Gren Harvard Road the 15 Washington parcel on Gren Harvard Road uh I did hear today that he heard back from Town Council but just kind of immediately prior to this meeting so he asked for a day or two to actually review that information himself before he sent it out so um I think that will be forthcoming shortly um and then um the other item was um getting a meeting with mass development for a discussion of moving the gate um on Bishop Road and I believe that um that meeting has been set up for April 30th cor yep yep yep so that is moving along as well then who do they plan attending that meeting so I think um Robert set that as up as a staff meeting but I do think it's probably worth noting um what are are there particular things that we as the committee would want that subset like what would we want to know as far as questions for the that initial meeting that would help us choose a site because that's really what we're doing we're site selection um well it obviously we're down to two we're down to three sites um it would be good to know whether or not we can gain Mass developments cooperation and trying to access that site um and have a clear understanding of what it would take in order for us to move the process forward on that site um and you know obviously you know I don't know the answer to that yet that is if Mass development says um would prefer not to move the gate or it's impossible for us to move the gate or uh we're prohibiting you from moving the gate or or any you know any version of that what do we as the building how do we as the building committee respond to that um is that or do we go to Town Council and town manager and the select board and say well you know it's town-owned property um and they're prohibiting us from accessing it yeah I I I I hear your first question is this committee would want to know is mass development interested in cooperating to move the gate in order to gain access to our Frontage on Bishop mcferson all right that's a fair question all right I'd like to frame it a little bit differently um to me the the most important with Dan V skill cook was nice enough to do some res arched on the side and he had mentioned to us before that he had contacted DPW at devans mhm and in the last few days he got us uh got a sample of some maps some older maps that were around and sent me a copy to look at as well so it appears pretty obvious from the data that they sent us that Bishop Road ends where the gate is placed and mcf and Road starts there so my first hope was that there was a map kicking around in fact was Mack by devans that said Bishop was named was right in front of the access to the town's land but it doesn't appear historically that's the case it goes way back to the the Army map looked like it pretty much answered the question yeah so my approach to is similar to Dennis's approach but somewhat different in that I don't think we need to ask him to move the gate I think we can just try to work with them to install a second gate down Beyond where mcf Road curves and the triangle in the road is where they had actually put in a pollinator Garden in the last 12 months and so far as that gate is concerned then we could either offer to pay for the installation but the point is that the first gate most of the time is open except when it's flooding so potentially by putting in a second gate we could say agree on some signage about the front of the road in where it intersects with PK street that basically didn't say anything when everything is open but in the event that it was the second gate was closed it would basically either have a flashing sign or some kind of printed sign that folded you know up with a message on it that just said you know uh mcferson Road closed ahead due to flooding something like that or due to environmental issues or whatever language they want to use and then the first gate would only be closed in a very big emergency if something happened at the airport or something happened on their land outside of the flooding so in essence the first gate would stay open like does 99% of maybe almost 100% of the time and the second gate would be their control point so that was what I had in mind so it's um it's unclear to me what the objection to us having access to the land or the mov that is it would seem to me that there are some clear advantages to mass development for the town to develop that parel and it's fully in keeping with Mass developments brief to you know sustainably you know increase access to devans and and all that that might entail increased jobs in the area all so it it would seem to me that it's in Mass development interest broadly speaking right that the town spend the money necessary to you know and again that presumes that that's the site Chosen and there's no guarantee of that but um yeah I don't think we can ass assume that there is or isn't an objection to it you know until until we meet them I think we do go in well prepared let's put that way to uh you know make some have a Lo logical discussion about the whole thing um more so than that I spoke to Dan it's interesting the whole thing is interesting but it's great walking down there when that gate is closed I'll tell you I did it twice in the last couple of weeks with Jonathan and it's just a beautiful walk when you walk down there with there's no traffic right um so I was thinking in terms that even if we get that if they if we get their cooperation this is a little bit beyond the committee but it certainly would be a thought that would there would be some kind of even simple gravel paths along the side of the road there's plenty of width on the sides of the road and it's kind of Sandy and grally not through there so the Oxo this is my trick question of course which I found out um when you look at all the drawings you know the maps and whatever you want to look at it turns out that um the DPW land isn't a direct butter to the Oxo National Wildlife Refuge which fascinated me I always thought it was closer to the river I didn't realize until I looked at the stuff that it's actually the dpw's border that is right next to Oxbo so Oxbow in essence starts exactly at the end of the DPW Gates of fencing it goes right down so we were able to walk in there and we went down further along the river and then we walk down your Sewer eement back to the gate your your DPW gate there's a nice little path in there that they have to maintain I mean there's an opportunity to impress Mass development with Let's gets more people walking around your Oxo land it's not their land it's a I guess it's their land but it's got an overlay of of the National Wildlife District it's it's not a district it's a what do you call it Wildlife Refuge is the correct term I believe but I don't think people realize that you're walking right into a National Wildlife Refuge when you walk right down that road it's fascinating so there's more there's a few angles here yeah absolutely to what extent would the U air Representatives on the devans Enterprise commission be able to weigh in on this because this project would also that is they would it's occurring on it's occurring on air property but I think from their perspective the devans Enterprise commission would see it as a positive for the you know overall growth and the Deon reuse plan and it's fully in keeping right with everything that they you know big picture that they want to do with devans in terms of what uh what Ken was saying so I think our representatives and I looked at the I'm not sure who they are frankly but Jimmy pad is one Jim pad okay which we all know yeah Bobby Bobby Gardner okay was appointed by the governor um the other this couple people from Shirley of course but if they have some Sway With Or if they have some input with mass development to say you know we feel like this is a winwin win um I mean I think that that might be helpful yeah I I think those all sound like wonderful approaches and yeah I I I agree with those me too I think I had kind of the same thoughts I don't want to really repeat them but you know go in there and show them exactly what we're trying to do and see how receptive they are and understand what the process would be if we are doing that you know we we'd be putting some utilities likely in that roadway as well and things like that eventually but right we'll see yeah and I I agreed with K you know have the Open Mind of hey we just we maybe we don't get rid of that gate we can do a second gate things like options like that too as well yeah yeah it's it's a piece of it's a it's an interesting resource it's been sitting out there at the edge of town around that area but just don't think about it yeah you cuz you just don't go down there yeah you know I think when it was probably when we were you know we have it as the brush dump you know years ago and when I moved in town that's where you went like every weekend you'd go down there and just kind of turn around and yeah I don't know how they yeah when the uh Landfield was being capped that turned into the uh transfer station for a while too the brush dump did I don't know how they dealt with a gate any gate issues back then but prob barric the road or something so rarely yeah it's just I mean this week I mean know check down there you know just given everything that's been happening with all the rain we've gotten but it's it's been somewhat unusual I think that it's been closed for this long there is a um time period in the spring they close it for some rare species too salamanders or something along those lines I forget but but it it's a couple weeks or so and Devon's DPW manages that yeah when we walked down there the other day this is interesting issue but the gentleman was cleaning the road by the bridge with a water truck from DPW in Deans the water was down the river was down low enough you could drive through oh yeah they cleaning the debris up they were also doing trees removal beyond the between the bridge and West Main Street they were clearing out some trees and stuff so there was equipment in there doing work so that may have something to do with it you could drive that through right through there though but be like like be a nice three or4 million job to put the retri rain ret the type of retaining oil you would need to keep that River from flooding the street it would be a big job but it's doable well I think that part of that is raising the bridge I mean there's amount of time they were talking about they needed to that bridge that railroad bridge to get it higher over the over the yeah well anyway it's that's what we have for ideas if you have any other ideas we need to approach it think about them I I mean I don't think so I mean not for that meeting but also to find out what the for for this for that particular site to find out what are the criteria for railroad crossings there if something's needed for that um like with a different use if there's no buildings on that road now there would be a building on that road although someone pointed out to me the other day that that same line crosses Fitchburg Road someplace else and there's no lights or Gates there either so um maybe it's a maybe it's a moot point um but it would be at least good to look into that um and then I think the only other due diligence that needs to go on with the site at least at this moment is um I believe when we were looking at those initial drawings that was a it had both sets the the purple and the pink has environmental yeah yeah so what is involved in those designations and then how does that impact the they they aren't showstoppers they're more of just um I know what an analogy would be kind of like a small hurdle you it's similar to you know if you have a wetland and you have a concom submitt an application okay so the AC um that would be triggered it's actually not triggered for local municipalities unless you have a state permit or like a um or state funding for a project and it's triggered if you do half an acre or more disturbance it used to be automatically triggered but now they had that half acre so anyways if that were to be triggered it triggers what's called meepa um Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act which is a regulation and essentially that's just all right this Project's going on in a in a place that's been designated environmentally sensitive let's uh make sure that the project isn't going to have a significant impact so you have to submit an application here's the project approach project here's the Alternatives we looked at and here's why we're doing it here's some mitigation that is going on to prevent any issues within the um you know the area and then um and then it basically goes into What's called the environmental monitor for a month and any state agency anyone in the public can see this project is in within the AC and comment on it okay and then after that um the is it whoever administers Meep I think it's environment eoea Environmental energy and environmental Affairs they they write a um a decision and it basically it says you're either you're okay or it says you have to submit an environmental impact report based on this project that could have a significant impact so okay you know what what we're proposing here I wouldn't see that triggering in E i' I've actually never seen a project trigger one that I've worked on okay and we've done a couple um you know the walk cross country water mains we've done um those both had meepa um but anyhow and then what was the other natural heritage endangered species program so we DPW we've had to permit for that as well too because you have activity on this on the site right TR through yeah right now we're actually working with them in a spectacle Pond we're looking at a new well Source um for a third well out off of it's a kind of a satellite from from where our spectacle Pond treatment plant is on a a parcel that town owns and so we're um basically you submit your permit application in accordance with the mass Endangered Species Act regulations and the divisions of fisheries and wildlife administers that and so they review your project look at what you're going to do for mitigation and then they make sure you're not going to have what's called a take so it's a a take of the species a um that would significantly impact the species habitat or such so they you know basically it's a permanent process they review it they might give you some not restrictions but um requirements conditions conditions that's the word I'm looking for so I wouldn't see that either being something that would stop a project like this but it would be something you would have to permit and work with through construction and then possibly afterwards you would have to make sure you maintain like the wooded area or whatever and stuff like that but and at at what point or or would we um bring uh the Conservation Commission into either advocate on our behalf or or interface with the state agencies or are they not engaged with that is with that information filling out other the forms approval of you know would that come from this committee or would that come from the Conservation Commission if if we trigger the wetlands permit act if if we're working near wetlands and we trigger a con local concom permit with that permit you could actually combine a natural heritage and dangered species review it's kind of a thing you're that allows you it accelerates that permitting process with endangered species so so if we were to trigger that we could ride that and and take care of both at the same time through the same permit but if we don't trigger any local concom permit we technically could work directly with the state agencies for those state permits and that would be done through our architect and his subc Consultants okay very um so it sounds like to me that in order to submit at least for the meeper review you have to have a description of the project first so it sounds like I'm all a fan of doing things you know concurrently but it sounds like we couldn't move forward because we don't know what you could um what the impact be we've done this on projects before it's just reach out you know beforehand without doing any submitt and just get a feel for you know what the permitting agency thinks of this potential project so like say if we had something down on paper from from Katlin right of where potential senior senator might go say you could bring it to him say hey this is what we're thinking here you know do you see any issues with this and see what they say you can do that informally all right we have a real life situation right now where this is happening at 91 right next to the transfer station is a building used to be burnam trucking and they came to us the planning board last night but the natural heritage line runs back through the back of that property so even though it's an enormous slope that goes down to the conservation Lane that they own it's the the the perimeter of the Heritage is right at the top of the slope so they did exactly what Dan just said they reached out orally got an email back and told us about it and of course that was insufficient for us um so we said you know we need to either a copy of the email or the not take letter which is typically what we see the the and it's happened almost every subdivision that's happening in town now right because this overlay from the natural heritage Endangered Species Act I think that's the whole title isn't it something like that that's what it is Falls in almost every piece of land now that's left in the town of there yeah we did it you know for the recent Highway garage we put in like 5 years AG go DPW because the you're say the DPW parcel takes most this natural heritage they kind of carve out where our buildings are but but that was a new building and so they you know they didn't have any issues with that so it usually your comment was right it usually just happens concurrent as you're working out the details okay right it sounds too it sounds too early to start that process right now we first need a little bit more in terms of what the design and where a building could go and then as Welling working on that kind of concurrently but that might be something more you know pretty critical too maybe more critical yeah y all right um any other updates on the due diligence items the um oh the um I'm sorry I forgot what you said about so Robert talked to Town Council Robert's going to be reviewing Town council's comments regarding the the school Lo the school deeded land and we'll see where that stands yes I believe he just received it like just prior to the meeting so he just asked for a day or two to review it himself and then he would distribute it and get it out to I mean not distribute it he would have an an update for the next meeting I think he won't distribute it is that what you're saying I I think there's something like letters from Town Council are not for distribution I don't we'll figure it out yeah either way we we'll figure it out I think he just needed a moment to read it himself um all right so I think that brings us to item number five which is an update on the contract with Catelyn architecture yeah um so with this one so I reached out to Catelyn let them know they were selected and they put together a contract and sent it to myself and I just and gave it to I gave it to Ken as well for us to review and basically they gave us um I think it was longwoods I don't know if it's long Woods or he said it was Wil Brams was the same contract so we went through there and um and he he and he tried to insert kind of what we were doing for the first few tasks so Ken and I went through and and had um several comments and I've since gotten back with catlyn and um and he was okay with the comments we had and the changes and so um I did a few more edits to to it and we attached the proposal and the pricing from The Proposal so it basically be set up as a contract not to exceed that pricing in that proposal without future authorization and they you know Bill us on the their rates um and so right now the contract hasn't been signed yet uh catlin's just doing a final look and getting it back to me and then I was going to have Town Council do a final look before we um we before the town were to sign which Robert can sign a Consulting contract of this nature without select board approval I mect as a town manager he he has the authority to to do that and do we have a um do we have a I mean I don't have a clear that is what would the first three tasks we would want cat Catlin to perform for the committee that is our you know what would so I think the next step will be to what the kind of bring him in have him sit down and talk to the committee about what we've been doing and and where where he kind of thinks we should head but I I think my my thought would be the programs obviously important we're not going to know how big what to put what building to put where without knowing the program reviewing that updating it um which is part of the first task we had in there and then this the next task would be to be putting together schematic plans and also kind of helping us build those con Concepts on the various sites that we look at so that'll be kind of the ongoing task until we get the site so we want the initial ask is for three different schematics for the three different sites or one schematic and how would it fit on each of the sites or we don't know we don't know I think we'll have to discuss with him I think you know we could we could do the program and find out what the needs are and then I think each site might have its own constraints so they have to rightly kind of yeah not each it wouldn't be one building youy plop everywhere they might have ideas and creativity with that so they'll be something we'll have to discuss with the architect um at what point does it make S it would we start by just kind of eyeballing like we've said sort of to the left of the gate into the DPW land to the fence line is that going to be sufficient or we've talked about at the school at the rotten Harvard Road Site you know to the left of the practice field but like at what point do we need to does this other due diligence need to play out first before you would say actually here's a little bit more specific or do you let the architect drive that and say Here's what you would need based on what you've told me see if you can get the parcel to be this big I think I think the important thing that Dan said is it's going to be up to you to tell the get the program we need the you need the room sizes and you need and then you're going to have to well eventually I think we'll have to get into the discussion of whether it's a two-story building or a singl story building that might be driven by the land for sure for sure right um but to develop the I'm just speculating but I think even the process that we used before in the old days like like three years ago was that um the program is critical for you guys sure that's a that's a given to me the program is critical but I guess what I'm saying is for us all to evaluate as the program is coming together the let's say both let's say there's no showstopper with any of these three sites like wouldn't we need at some point to know more specifically how much cuz we're carving out a separate parcel from three larger Parcels it's not like it's an existing parcel of 243 feet wide or whatever so at what point at what point does in this process does that get defined so I think it would be good to have that is if we can get the architect to say if you move it somewhat here to the left and include this much acreage you're going to be able to do more or less or if you you know rotate the building and that is I think it will be it would it would certainly be helpful for me to know at the Gren or any of the three sites if you can move it this way and take up then you're going to have easier access or better sight lines or the viewscape is going to be better or the access to the rear walking trails is going to be improved if the building is um as opposed to that is I think that their input into exactly how much of the parel in what portion of the parel we should try to gain control of MH for me I think that that would be a good thing to know so just to jump in just from doing similar past experiences sorry allergies crushing me we've always found that the architect wants to know what the canvas is they have to work with before hypothetically developing a building without knowing that so to your question I think it is going to be important to get those answers so they know what space they have to work with because it's unlikely that an architect is going to want to hypothetically create a building that may or may may not ever fit there or may or may not have to slide into locations that we simply don't have space for yeah yeah we'll have to give him at least like approximate constraints what we know from from these vetting that we do um from you know the location of the brush dump how close can we go to that except you know stuff like that and then we can get them whatever we have available for survey like you know I know there is liar in town which is you know real rough but when you're doing concept you can use that okay and then he'll probably use you know the the available soil information that's available on the desktop for now to find out you know is this a good spot are we going to be able to do storm water here where's the parking go you know they can start at least concepting it in um and then if if we get more serious with a concept then we would probably do more due diligence like test pitting and things like that no Etc but yeah okay I'm going to go back to the word program I should have expanded I guess in the word program I think we have to figure out how many square feet you guys are going to need right that's critical so how many square fet do we need are we building 10 12 15 um we know what the ideal is but and Dennis May disagree with me and you may disag so I think maybe you know we can do it on this size but you guys think you need this size so as a committee that will drive how many parking spaces we need and you know the whole the whole sh how much outdoor space do we want for in terms of patios and approaches and you know how does it land on the site but I I'm I'm leaving it up to you folks to tell us how many square feet we no I I have lots of opinions on that when we get there we're going to settle on that we're going to have to settle on that right and so I and I think cuz once he draws it up we want we want to kind of stick with a footprint based on how many square feet it is right right yeah I mean yeah you wouldn't want to be redo redoing the whole thing many times over yeah and I I don't know this for sure but I suspect that a larger building would fit at gron Harvard and the and Bishop Road then would fit at Brook Street that is there's more kind of flat area to work with more just the boundaries of the of the Lots we're looking at are wider there than they are at Brook Street it's pretty wide at Brook Street when you if you push you know you can get over there his building it get pretty wide but so so you don't see all right well I mean for me and from having visited a number of bigger is better that is that's what the discussion is That's So that when when talking about should it be 10 or should it be 15 my inclination is to move closer to the 15 number than n's closer to the 10 so we already have that's what we're going to be working up and and I think that really I think 10 versus 15 is kind of arbitrary until you know what you're really going to do what do you need the rooms with this what you need the rooms for and what you're willing to put in so like if and these are really small details but like if a sink an adequate cabinet storage goes in every single room then every single room could be rotated and used for Massage Wellness whatever um cooking demonstration arts and crafts classes that sort of a thing they can I mean storage is one thing but they can swing multi-purpose as needed versus some centers we visited had very specific flooring on this room for this specific activity um so you know I'm a fan of multi-purpose spaces so um I mean I want it to be big enough to serve our needs but it needs to be flexible because what seniors want now and what they want 5 to 7 to 10 years from now will be a little bit different and 10 years from now will be different right so um and that's what the that's and you know in talking with some folks who have recently built them I I heard in situ and over and um just now in towns and that within 5 years of the building opening they were looking for more space yeah um for either and again either when the space was developed as a senior center the community started recognizing the quality of the building or the fact that the You Know audio visual stuff was First Rate or and so community meeting started wanting to be held there or they needed more rooms because the programs were being over subscribed um Fitness room was too small now that they so I I haven't heard yet oops it's too big and people don't feel comfortable here and it's just overwhelming um it's not to say that you couldn't make it too big but if you're going to make a mistake in that regard I suspect it would be to go too small rather than too big then my inkling to to agree with Dennis uh if we get a con concession of the conclusion of the group would be that we decide that you know it's going to be 14 or 15,000 and that's just where we start with the architect as well and then you fit your program into that if you can get your program into 14,000 or whatever the number is 14 or 15 and we that's part of our sales job you know we need to work on a building of this size otherwise it's not going to work in 25 years or something like that MH and just going back to the dance Bo I think that's why it is important to have that be one of the Architects first missions because they're really going to help steer that you know from their expertise yeah and I mean and part of that is and I I asked Allan for this and he's working on it is you know what's the anticipated population growth and you know what's the upper limit to the population in there and all the rest of it and and how do you kind of crunch those numbers and again I know that the further out you go the less reliable the predictions are um but it would be good to you know the town will never be 40,000 people so we don't have to make it that big but if the town is 12,000 people right you know then we know the senior population is growing Nationwide the senior the trend is saying that the the data is showing the projections at a nationwide level are showing that the number of seniors in any given Community are going to continue Contin to grow until 2060 the peak will be in 2060 but it will be an incredibly large number it's already almost 25% of A's population so seniors are going to continue to grow until that segment of the population until 2060 and then obviously it's not going to like there's not going to be no seniors after 2060 it's just not going to grow anymore so it would be still high but not not growing so it's a I I know the data at a national level but I think it would be great to have those projections at a local level I I want to thank Dan for U analyzing that contract with me and U bringing it forward to Catlin and U I'm pleasantly surprised that he uh if if he agreed with all those changes that we talked about yeah yeah thank you for the help too yeah yeah thank you guys for doing that y um all right so Wonder so I guess um you'll let the committee know or I guess maybe even Robert can provide an update on where he is in that process because you'll turn it over to him soon right yeah um I don't think it'll take too long as long as Council moves into the top of their ladder usually if I get Katy kin it gets done pretty quick so okay I think you know i' hope by the end of next week we have something okay and yeah at the latest I think it'll be before that okay all right um anything else with the architect has been okay all right gosh I think kti oh yes Ellen yeah can I say something of course um I want to agree with um uh Dennis about not building it too small because when I did the references as he said uh the biggest complaint or people who felt they had had finished it and they it was already too small so you know I do think we need to have adequate space um the other question is everybody's talking about program and I want to confirm if the idea that we need to um specify what program we're looking for if that's going to be a time when we're going to have public input oh absolutely yes yes okay because I think it would be advisable to try to do that before the summer you know which would be like mid June so I'm hoping that if we're going to work on that we get get on it right away so so alen just to let let you let you and and the general public Katie on um yesterday or the day before I think Monday was it yes yeah Tuesday Tuesday so she uh she did hold a meeting um which was uh with the with the folks down at the senior center now just to kind of bring them up to speed on where we are in this process and in terms of where we are in the site selection process and that we're moving forward in an effort to kind of keep the community engaged and um so we have started that process um the specificity about what kinds of programs and how much space we haven't quite gotten there yet but I I would agree that having some level of public input into that would be great yeah and I just want to stress obviously you know it has to go beyond obviously COA patrons it needs to be the general public right and I think that's something that the architect will have a lot of assistance with is how to structure those what are the main questions you want to be asking who do you want to be asking them of and how many times in order to feel like you've gotten a representative sample of of residents yeah and I was actually going to ask is that part of the contract that they're going to be beholden to a couple of public hearings that they'll be running and running surveys because I know in some projects that is put into the contract of Architects so that there's a third party doing it um so just curious if that is part of this contract I thought I thought it was pretty strong indication that he would be leading the jge and all that stuff yeah great yeah all right yep good he even said it that night of the the interview when what whatnot pretty much talked about does right okay right I think that takes us to public input then any public input both online or oh is that that's the mouse oh that's the mouse yeah um in person or online any public input I just want to say that I think it should be on state Mary cemetery that's my opinion that that's where the senior center should be on the the cemetery on the cemetery or you mean on Bish Bishop Bishop that I think it should be that's you put it on a cemetery the environmental R right Mage goes completely nuts they have more land that they're filling in too for you oh okay and can I ask you why you think that that's the preferable site what are your well I think at the DPW there's not enough area for what would be needed for a senior center you talking Brook Brook Street Brook Street Brook Street yep that um you know for outside and then even inside and I prefer a one story and not a two story um the two story would be if you wanted to you know vent out the second half you know of special meetings or something you know upstairs but I think think if you're going to do that then you have to track about an elevator to go up to the second floor with seniors so it's more of an expense to do a second floor and then the one in GH road I don't think is is big enough and it's ledge there and how much is you might not be familiar with all the details on on some of the land as well so it's a little tricky to visualize it from the street unless you've walked it so it's yeah more to come but I do appreciate yeah I mean it's good to have that um yeah bring your friends next time plenty of good seat and and one of the things I think we'll see as we get further on in this process is you know people will have opinions and then as we add to the program the concept as as our work as a committee is progressing then opinions can become more and more informed and more and more concrete as well as our plans become you know more developed so yeah me people need to see more I none of us can guess that's right it's going to be helpful as we get through the process with the architect to get something on up on a slide or whatever it'll help definitely it's a good move yeah all right and Pauline yes good evening m u Madam chair Katie uh just again you all are doing a great job um if there's a committee in this town that is as detailed and as um determined as you I spend a lot of time watching all of them and second to the planning board maybe this is the next best one I am disheartened by how many people have fallen off the watching and listening this is so I wanted to just let you all know that I'm going to try and rattle the cages a little bit and I didn't want you to think that it was a a challenge or question to anything you've done I really am supporting this um and and I think more people need to participate and I'm sorry that isn't happening we always welcome more participation we always get a better product that way can I say something um sure I do the hand thing um thank you Pauline I think that having the public uh meetings to talk about program will be a a Ideal Time for people to be involved because that's when they can you know give their opinions and their ideas and they will have the most impact as we're ready to design you know what's going to go in the building so I I think that would be good as soon as we get a date for our public meeting Madam chair if I may I totally agree alen um but the process of deciding on a site at all this other will simply lead to people saying well this that or the other thing and I wish there was quite a um interest in the the whole process 6 8 10 months ago and now all of a sudden it's all fallen off maybe it's just the winter Blues I don't know but I just wanted you to all be aware I'm going to try and generate some support support maybe I should say interest um because people really need to participate and if they don't participate they don't get to speak and I'm a fan of that but I just wanted to let you all know I'm appreciative of all you're doing you're the most indepth of everything I've ever watched second to the planning board Mr disin but thank you all so much for your service I appreciate it thank you Paulie thank you all right um I think that brings us to our next meeting uh I think we said that it was going to take you know end of next week you said probably to be able to say Dan that the contract is ready you could to go um yeah I would say that and plus what April 30th we're going to meet with devans right um and then I'm thinking you know we we schedule this meeting we're we're going to do right now and we'll also ask to have Catelyn come when he's available we'll have to kind of check make sure it works with his schedule so it might be something you know we schedule now tentative and sure yeah sure so do we you think then um either the week of like maybe later in the week of the 6th or do you think we need to go into the week of the 13th um I'm going to be on vacation the 14th to the 21st but I'm just telling you that you can still go ahead but lucky you you just came back come on buddy you said you said May 14th till when 21st 21st for yeah it was the 13th Monday so I'm kind of pigeon hold to Wednesdays right now I'm coaching two baseball teams and a soccer team so I have okay very little time um so if Wednesdays works for everybody that' be preferred to me but if not obviously you know that's okay too I'm in the same boat as you actually soccer Wednesday works it has to be a Wednesday works for for you as well okay Wednesday works I like Wednesday at 6:00 do something during the day and do this in the evening Wednesday why don't we say Wednesday the 15th and then maybe Dan can you reach out to Catlin and see when they're available yeah um okay it's only Wednesday the 15th at 6th I'll I'll reach out to him tomorrow and because Wednesday the 8 it seems unlikely that everything would be in place by then or less likely so I mean that that was my thinking about the 15th is that the 8th would just be too quick for the April 30th yeah probably yeah probably give us a little more time yeah I'd say 15th yeah 15th okay all right wonderful so we'll tentatively say the 15th at 6 p.m. um and I did um as you'll notice tonight's meeting was set up with a different um Zoom meeting ID than the ones previously so um the senior center hybrid Pro programming grant their Zoom account is hosting this meeting um which I think is going to be really advantageous for us going forward so that we don't need to work around the other um boards use of the primary Town Zoom account um so that will give us flexibility um you obviously this room is is needs to be scheduled or there's the upstairs room um you know I I I think it'll be good going forward so nice yeah okay I think that's a big deal what you just talked about thank you no problem all right uh anything else before we adjourn just want to go back everyone is in this group is happy with the thoughts we had on Bishop Ro does anyone have any other thoughts that we could use to make our case as strong as possible e either related to this or just in general for the town um I that is I think it I mean there my initial thoughts on that are that it we that it works to mass that is there to my way of thinking there are significant advantages to mass development moving the gate to mass development that is the cost to them is negligible I think the opportunity cost to was of losing this is significant so there are a lot of good things that could happen for Mass development and for the entire Devin project if this development could go and again I'm not prejudging that it must go there but um so to the extent that we can rally support in the community for this is something good that we would like to see happen um or like to see made possible because if if we C if we can't do this for Mass development reasons then at what point will we the town be able to do anything there right that it you know if they say if they ni this because the gate has to remain then the gate has to remain and at what point in the future is it 10 years from now 20 years from now 30 years from now that the town would gain access to that um I think that would largely be dependent and not to speculate about it but that would largely be dependent upon what their reason would be right right is there reason due to a property barrier is it due to security is it due to spe protection of species is it due to flood like I think without without taking the simple question to them first and then seeing if they are receptive and if they are hesitancies on what basis then I think I think this is a I don't think this is going to be a walk in hey do you want to do it can we move can we put another gate up yes you can and then one conversation I I assume it's going to be more than one conversation that evolves based on what they're because it's a government situation I don't think that's a bad description of what um but I do want to mention something I should have asked this before to and put Dan on the spot um but i' never asked before unless we only alluded to it was is there any apprehension from the DPW that any of the land we're looking at is critical to them it cannot be replaced anywhere else or I'm looking at the fact that I think there's 79 OD Acres over there which could give you plenty of flexibility but I never asked that question I don't think yeah and that's obviously something I thought of when we were doing so you know I think I would have been pretty straightforward if it was something that we you know hey don't do that we we need that for Waste waterer or something but I think these two sites we're looking at we know the constraints there you know I I I brought up the one at Brook Street with our critical sewer and water gas me utilities all that so that's the big concern there but the brush dump area that's really I think that's a good spot it's so it may have been more of a convenience for the public to get to that spot than uh an absolute needed location for for DPW right okay yeah um I have a suggestion um is it okay just say um I think we should be prepared for questions about the AC and the um in terms of what is likely to be disturbed and things like that because I know they have people working there who are very interested in those areas and if they ask us and we don't know anything about it it might just postpone you know any kind of decision yeah thanks and actually going back to you Ken too we the DPW during Mark's wetzel's time we did have a a needs study done for the DPW okay and so we've been sort of phasing it in we've done the highway garage we've done a garage at the water plant initially they want they the recommendation was to put a Taj Mahal on the DPW property you know kind of like westf has I don't know if you ever been there but we we doing Mark used to call it the Wetzel plan we're kind of putting pieces together various parts of to so from that need study there's nothing in there that these sites disrupt either so yeah okay good all right do I have a motion to adjourn then or anything I'm sorry anything else I will make the motion to adjourn all right second all in favor I great uh we are adjourned to 7:02 p.m.