hello welcome everyone today is uh Wednesday May 22nd 2024 and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection and building committee uh this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please know that while an option for remote attendance and or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 375 414 6055 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly antonellis assistant Town manager at ATM a.ma ma. us or 978-772-4864 proposed amendments I'm going to turn on this back oh no wrong one messing it up okay so this one you broke it you broke it it that one should go let me I thought this was the remote I I just can't see that one when I'm sitting there yep I think you have to log back in okay on this and then I'll get that I just I didn't realize until I sat down it wasn't on [Music] I think you just turned me back off again no oops stay tuned technical difficulties while while we're waiting everybody can read um Dennis just put on the table the April 10th minutes my phone is there a a little there's you did where are they if it doesn't work it doesn't work oh wait is it that one right there that's it okay just a whole lot easier for me to see when someone has their hand raised from that TV okay so I think yeah you might have to log back in okay I don't know this one's password if you doo I always mess it up that's why I keep it in here sorry about that this is for you okay thanks okay all right awesome L back on yep do I need to read the thing again no I would just say that you're okay recording in progress oh perfect okay it all all came back okay great all right so now we're back you just want to turn I think the undo yourself and the video yep okay all right thank you for your patience everyone for our techn ological difficulty we are back and ready to resume the meeting um so can I get a motion to approve the agenda some moved all right second all in favor all wonderful so the uh and the motion passes the next order of business is um the draft minutes from April 10th uh Dennis just handed these out does everyone want time to review them for the next meeting that's fine with I mean to review for the next meeting is fine with me I don't want people to feel rushed and just so I tried it was an extended conversation about the architect selection process and who said what and who so it um I wanted to abbreviate it without belaboring it too much um so I did the best I could but if people feel like there are points there that should be added or you know um I would certainly understand that okay all right um do I have a motion to table to the next meeting well 4 429 isn't here on on the current agenda the 410 oh no10 yep okay it's up to you I'll make a motion that the senior Senate site selection and building committee uh table the approval of the minutes of April 10th until the next meeting second all in favor I I chair says I wonderful that'll give us time to look it over all right uh number three is updates on due diligence for the town-owned sites um Mr Town manager do you want to provide an update on or do you want me to okay that's that's so um the the only remaining item was um setting up a meeting with the um superintendent of schools to begin the conversation about um use of Gren Harvard Road and that meeting has uh been scheduled so that will be on Friday um there will be a subset of our group so we don't have to reconvene the whole thing and so then we'll look forward to having um you have that discussion could could you reiterate how it you know what town council's findings were regarding the garton Harvard parcel and what the administrative requirements would be should we choose to try to access it right so the the the parcel that is called um 115 Washington Street which is the larger School complex um the piece we're interested in is down on the Gren Harvard roadside near the um near the practice field but not interfering with the practice field um so that land is when it was um when the lease was uh created it was the it is town of air owned land but was operation came under the jurisdiction of the school committee at that time so Town council's opinion was that in order to carve out a separate parcel for the use by the senior center it would require an agreement between the select board and the school committee to break the existing lease then a vote of air only just the air town meeting to decide to use that piece of the land for uh to revert it back to municip use versus School use and then the school committee and the select board could reenter into a new lease so um and as it was described to me is that some pieces of that could be very procedural like all in in sequence together so and the school committee I'm sorry and and the upcoming meeting is with the school committee or the school superintendent the school super it's just to start that conversation just to be clear I think Robert wasn't the original deed found that referred to it as going to the school department I'm sorry not the school committee okay and the reason I say that is because the school committee now is made up of different people from two different towns so it's not in essence the school committee it's it's a little tricky the language is a little trick come join us I'll just real quick so through through the chair good evening so procedurally yes the land um the whole 115 Washington on research it is under the care of the the school department at the time the opinion of Town Council is if this was to be a site procedurally what would have to happen is the school committee would have to take a vote to declare this piece of property which we would have to Define with a formal you know survey so as um Surplus and then town meeting only for air not for Shirley because it is in air town meeting would also have to to affirm that um with a vote and then that land would be as defined for municipal purposes for the senior center so the first step is discussion with the superintendent of schools uh to sort of um start that sort of process ultimately depending on what what the town decides to do but the nutshell is we'd have to define the parcel through a survey school committee would have to take a vote and town meeting would have to uh approve that and then that would be the procedure in in a nutshell and and so meeting with the superintendent is an effort to kind of get the lay of the land in terms of where he where his interests may or may not lie with regard to that as that is it I'm just trying to is there a the distinction between the school committee which and the school superintendent and to what extent he may or may not accurately reflect the needs of the desires of the school committee in total or just kind of just trying to get the lay of the land as he sees it yeah through the chair it would be just an initial discussion on the on the due diligence ultimately what still would have to happen procedurally in my opinion is this committee would have to recommend a site say you recommended that site to the select board then discussions would have to discussions have be initiated between the select board and the and the school committee and a vote would have to be taken um and then if that vote was affirmative uh we'd have to you know go to town meeting with that right see yeah okay so this is just the sort of the first step in that process and I think you're correct in what you said is to sort of gauge at least from the superintendent in terms of the schools program and and property and so forth is to get a sense of the viability you know of this obviously if there's a just a sense of that okay yeah because we wouldn't really want to do a lot of the assessments unless we knew that the school system was open to this right correct correct all right thank you thank you y thanks all right so that's I like to see that good forward progress on both of those um so then uh number four is updates to the vacant board seat want go the other side so just oh um oh I mean I guess we could we did talk about it at the last one the the outstanding due diligence item for um Bishop Road was the gate that was the first level right and so we did have I think we didn't we talk about this I think we did at the last me we can repeat it um there was a successful meeting with mass development and they are considered it basically a no-brainer to move the gate back um further uh on on Bishop Road so that um you know a potential Senior Center site would be accessible all the time because it's the gate is there the gate was placed there by the Army in the 70s right the 50s or 60s 50s or 60s to reduce teenage drag racing along the road that um and then it's just used now for the flooding but there's no reason because the flooding is nowhere near the site that we're considering there's it could move back um so I guess there is the outstanding part of that is the followup with mass development because they were going to speak with fish and wildlife about the migratory patterns just to make sure that uh to determine whether the gate could be relocated to just past the dpws land or whether it could go to the other side of the triangle piece of land down by the pollinator Garden so so for the for the purposes of this committee's work the gate isn't there for lack of a better terminology and we can proceed looking at Bishop Road you know that we will have access to it without issue yes and just and did they the question as to moving the gate further all the way down or that's just not really on the rad that is putting the Gat somewhere else further down at the intersection between bishop and mcferon or right so where it would be moved to was more of an issue of them checking in with fish and wildlife to determine but either way as long as it moves to the far end of the dpw's property um that suits the needs of this project um you know if it could go further down there's obviously um benefits to that from a nature appreciation perspective but that's beyond the scope of of this committee um that was 1973 was article about that gate all right great so did they say when they're going to report back to us about um fish and wildlife I believe they said it would take two or three weeks they were going to spec out the cost of it um so that time is we're coming pretty close to that so um would your office be okay the 3 week Mark yep yeah just for one more item on that their agenda they needed to determine where they were going to relocate the gate the impact of its location regarding the wetlands so depending on the complexity of the relocate where it's going to end up and how close it was to Wetlands they would have to decide with the devons Enterprise commission whether they needed to go through what kind of application they would have to go to to put it near closer to Wetlands got they move it no matter where they move it they're going to be closer to Wetlands than it is now and so as a result of that it may be a simple application which gets an executive approval or it maybe more full-fledged application where they have to have a hearing and whatnot that was kind of the thing they were waiting on that's right okay so uh Madam chair and this kind of um the issue about the railroad tracks I know that we had had some brief conversations about to what extent crossing the in what adaptations may or may not be required and I don't know the the answer to that I did go back down Fitchburg Road and look at where the railroad tracks cross Fitchburg Road and there are and which is a much more heavily traveled Road I mean it's there is frequent reasonably high-speed traffic going down fishburg road all the time um and there is no gate crossing there are no I think that that um I'm not sure what you'd call it the uh it's a siding I think the railroad siding is um used by the lumber yard on the other side of pitchburg road all of this to say that it it doesn't appear that the railroad tracks Crossing Bishop Road there would be a significant impediment to traffic going down Bishop Road and its effect on Park Street yeah if if it doesn't if they don't have it or don't need it or require it on Fitchburg I agree with you that probably makes sense um and then I guess ultimately that's the railroad's responsibility to determine if they need something there so um all right yeah uh any other and I don't think there was any due diligence for the um Brook Street Brook Street property right okay um oh and the issue of if for Bishop Road we would need to get into utilities which I figure we can talk about a little bit more when we're doing going through the rating Matrix um but I don't think there was anything that needed to be determined right now whether to red light or green light the site as as an option um okay uh in terms of the vacant board seat there was an application um submit or interest submitted um that was from Jim penard so I wasn't sure if he was going to be able to make it tonight um otherwise um I believe the select board is at the June 4th meeting um he can attend that and they can you know ask him the same interview questions and then you know appoint him at that time um was he one of the ones that originally no no so this is a new person yep so that is great more than merrier good to have a a full committee again soon um all right so I think that brings us into what I think is going to be kind of the meat of our meeting tonight which is the discussion of the senior center program needs um and this should also say and the resultant site Matrix that comes from it um so in your in your packet everyone should have that's that colorcoded I guess everyone has it except for me hang on um yeah the colorcoded no I have it yes um looks like this with the different rooms this is sort of the starting point this is document was provided by um Catelyn architecture um to take a look at the different kinds of spaces that the senior center may want to have uh they're colorcoded by the type of use that they are and as he explained during our last meeting that this flows through nicely because you can group them together by use like red are all pro public programming spaces um you know and then in purple's office spaces um the light purple is the kitchen then you've got sort of the um the storage and and mechanical areas and then as we begin talking about what this building would look like the drawings of it will have the preliminary drawings will have those colorcoded room so you can see how close are the program rooms to the restrooms and you can tell that just by color as well and you can kind of shift things around based on that so um I did ask um Catelyn for the same documents for Wilbraham and North Andover which most everybody on the committee has seen one or the other um and they were their preliminary ones as well so there are some changes to those but the the gist of it is that we're kind of right in the middle what they're proposing is slightly larger than North Andover space because if you remember the people that saw North Andover it's really sandwiched in to a very tight space um and then slightly smaller than what Wilbraham had was proposed for them so um so everone I think had this from the last meeting did anybody have any thoughts about that as they were looking through it well do we have any idea yet in terms of the administrative areas how much Staffing we would have cuz you would they're looking at three um people at the reception desk plus six in administration right so that would be um me the Outreach coordinator who here what we currently have is me the dining services coordinator the van coordinator the Outreach coordinator and the town social worker so there are currently five of us um and of those six like they're not all six identical workstations right um for the folks that went to Wilbraham and then also in North Andover there were some workstations like open work desks kind of in the middle of that there was the reception where the greeters were sitting and then some open more flexible workspaces and then there were two or three offices in the back um to add up to that total that total number so um I'm sorry would you just repeat you had a director the Outreach coordinator the dining coordinator the van coordinator the social worker and was there one more uh and kitchen yeah so so director um Dining Services van coordinator um Outreach worker and social worker so there's five existing okay right didn't you say you were thinking about adding a veterans agent room too or is that just going to be a shared workspace or should we add another in so that you have the space rather than trying to jam it in later so that would be so we have five existing and this plan shows six so that would incorporate the veterans agent if we chose to do that um another option that I have seen in other senior centers is when they're designing the kitchen they leave a piece of it flexible so that sometimes the dining person can end up having their office actually in the kitchen which is quite practical um if the front-end administrative needs grow so um I think six would be okay especially when you have three people at a a threers reception desk area that's a lot of people um there you could have someone folding newsletters you can have a a greeter and a phone answer and that's that's plenty of of space so how many like Standalone offices are you envisioning presumably one for you one for the social worker one for the Outreach coordinator and one for the so that so when we're looking for square feet per person you're thinking three Standalone offices and then the other three or four people will be kind of sharing some common space within the administrative area okay yeah so and I think it would at least based on current use if we move the veterans agent over um which again that's not my call to make that would come from town hall um so but I don't he's not a full-time employee and the social worker is also not not with us full-time so I could see a situation where um you could have they could share an office but have opposite schedules so that they wouldn't be occupying the space at the same time so they would have they wouldn't be sharing a desk they'd be sharing an office and use it at different times um so and I think that works well for the dining coordin and the van coordinator as well because they also won't sit at a desk 40 hours a week um so that gives flexibility there um so I have a question about the veterans agent I'm not exactly sure how to how to frame the question but um do do we get outside funds from um the you know from the government from the federal government for the uh that that agent and the space that they they need that's a good question I don't know that um do you happen to I'll just uh to the chair to Carolyn uh yes we receive I have to check we do receive some State funds um for the veteran agent and we also have a um memorandum of agreement we provide Veterans Services to Devon so Mass development sends us a small amount of money but I could get the specific receive some money from the state and from Mass development so it seems like you know they they should support financially support um putting that office in uh the COA Center Oh you mean you would want their support in order to move them in addition to Just Right Space Management from town manager's office is that what you're saying or you're saying you want them to kick in some money to move their office not to move it to to just be there you know space like rent yeah yeah well I think whatever money the town is receiving to house facilitate the work of to have office space available for the veterans agent will move from town hall this building to the new building if that is where the new if that is where the veterans agent is housed is that the yeah yeah okay that yeah I mean that would be that seems reasonable but that would be something obviously we'd have to look into and research I don't know how any of that is structured now but that's a that that's a good thing to look into um also you had mentioned that uh I don't know if it was the disability commission or whatever was looking for a location to um store equipment that could be loaned out and would that require Staffing um so when I when I met with them I mean do you want to we talk basically what we're looking to do is receive items that are useful you know say someone passes away or they outgrow their equipment they have a walker or a wheelchair or canes or a shower chair or something like that we're looking to receive that as a donation clean it up and then if somebody was having trouble getting funded through their insurance or they didn't have insurance they could contact the Council on Aging and say we're looking for this and they would direct them to the disabilities commission and then we would see if we had that item that they're looking for in stock or available and then we would clean it up and coordinate with the Council on Aging and that person to get it to them so are you seeing this as a volunteer position of one of your members volunteer position okay so you're not looking for Staffing no that would that would be a great example of you know at first you think well what would we do with three chairs at the reception area well if we had one person that's the COA volunteer employee answering phones one person who's assisting or you know like during tax season we always have two people at the front well during the times when the disabilities commission is doing their lending program they would have a spot then to sit and yeah gather there and yeah so good and in the Square I know that John Mr Catlin had mentioned that the in terms of the space needed to house that I mean that equipment can get pretty big pretty fast from what he seemed to think like he was thinking this something the size of a garage yes which I just looked up just now is 240 Square ft 24 by 24 yeah and that would be that needs to so that needs to be added to these numbers here or not right I got two Val um okay so that's yeah that would be I added that I added equipment rental room as my line number 27 and I put 240 on there yeah well you know then you know I guess the the the question is similar so you know will be expanding the facility to accommodate that are there funds from disabilities commission to uh I have I have no idea we are kind of we're a town board so I would assume if we needed money the town would be you'd just be taking money from the town and redirecting it to another part of the town so so there's no funding like this from other governmental agencies or anything so that would have to be and again we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here but way ahead of our CES um but all of this to say that the building we're looking at an an additional two you know 250 square fet or so to kind of expand the possible uses of the of the center m i mean that's significant I mean that's really significant th bucks a foot that's 250,000 for garage all right good Point yeah that's significant okay um yeah so I mean all right do we want to get no we don't want to go down to how much is all this going to cost yet let's let's work on what we need first I think the thing that's important here is the assumptions that Mr Catlin has made for the square footages seem to make sense so you know an average office is like 10 x 12 he's got 125 Square ft so you know it's about an average office size if you need six offices that's 750 and then he's basically figuring you know people just sitting in an open space at 75 Square ft a piece which is what's that 8 10 by 8 by 10 or something like that 9 by 8 is 72 so yeah so uh when we went to the buildings that we saw that these administrative areas were typically secure the ones we saw had a door into the area so the people who were in the area were somewhat secure and then there was a counter space of some sort the people work with the public and then in the rear that were officers when he shows us the concept plan it's probably what we're going to see something along those lines so I think the way to approach it is just to say look if we agree that it takes whatever those two together are a th000 square fet then that's it and we can only give them a th000 square F feet I'd rather I'd rather come up with a number that says we're only going to dedicate to Administration a th000 square ft figure out how to use it right than say well we got so many people that each need a space you know i' say to Define that we're only going to that's worth a th000 square ft to me for that um it's my recollection that there were only maybe four offices that were private in the the director and I think and then several people worked at just a workstation that was the thing so they didn't have to have walls and right all of that does this allow for what is our 5 year down the road 10 years down the road what is our staffing what does the projected Staffing look like and does that fit in this Frame or should we be thinking 10 years down the road you're going to need 15 you know 12200 ft of office space cuz you're going to add some other right service or something in there Mak Provisions so that office as opposed to this is what we have now and now we have no room to expand or grow what's going on in the the administrative area it's almost to me it would almost make sense to maybe add one office even if it wasn't planned on being used now I mean so that you could have something to grow into in the future as opposed to Pigeon hoing yourself into this is all we can do so in the at both North Andover and wilbrand they had two or three offices like imagine if it was this room let's say um the reception was sitting across a long counter and then the middle space um was sort of an open flexible space there were workstations that had had two desks at them they could have had four but they had two you know you could have put slotted people in a little tighter and then a copier on the other side and some flexible space in the middle so that people could come and go and not bump into that each other and then across the back where the two or the three offices so I would see that space as a very flexible spot because I I agree with you if you put if we say there's six administrative we have five now if we move the veterans agent over that would that would fill it if I were to look at my longer term plan it would be hiring a part or full-time administrative assistant in which case that person would sit in one of these three reception desk seats um and then the next staff member that I would want to hire would be a program coordinator um and that person um could sit in one of not the reception desk areas but in the flexible office space in the middle because from experience that person very rarely gets to sit at a desk they're up and moving through the room setting them up knocking them down you know know Gathering stuff um so I would put that in the category as well as um the van coordinator and the dining services coordinator people who are going to spend they need a space for their computer they need a space for their supplies but they won't sit there more than two or three hours a day so if they have a I'm thinking security a security aspect is there anything like if I'm talking with the program coordinator is it do I need a space where this is a oneon-one and I don't want if I'm talking to you I don't want the three other people around me hearing like if I'm coming in to say you know I I my kid broke his leg and I need right right so those spaces that would be the director's office the Outreach coordinator the social worker and then the veterans agent and so I mean I suppose we could say that we want a little bit more space in here but I think those the ones that have the three offices would meet then I I can't foresee a situation where we would have more than one Outreach coordinator um you know I guess it's always possible that the social work department would expand but then that would be outside of the scope of the senior center anyway yeah I mean you know we have this this tension between wanting to make it um efficient and and not too and and cost effective you know versus all dreams that we might want for it yeah I I think that h i mean I think we have to allow that there will be sufficient space for confidential conversations should that need arise and be mindful of that if perhaps if the social worker sched you know that the conference room may be available now because the conference room isn't being used for you know particularly large meeting so now you can use that for confident or or however that works out but I think his point is well taken that um having adequate space for confidential conversations is going to be necessary and I I think that's something that we should be aware of and one excuse me goe I was say and one fallback for that is that there is the wellness room and and nurses office which becomes kind of an overflow area for not constant need but intermittent need so that that is helpful um all right I mean until until we see the blueprint and can see how it's I think it'll be easier then to see how he's divvied out this space and whether or not we feel it's flexible enough you know and um one of the things was interesting about even this calculation here when you look at the bottom this is happens to be the way C Catlin approaches it visually and as you saw in wilham he's got a very he's got he tries to control the size of the common areas by having them Blended in the corridors but it does take up quite a bit of open space you know you feel like you're in an open area which is what you want to feel you feel comfortable and so the admin is almost set aside you know in a corner more or less you know for privacy and for the flow doesn't go through the admin is what I'm getting at the flow is out in the middle of the space in the corridors and stuff so that's what he comes up with this you know like about this his factor is about 20% so when you figure that out that that's a you know he's got like almost 3,000 square ft of common you know in the N well it's a 12 to 143 but that's where that open feeling comes from mhm where one with a carer and a bunch of officers on either side does not give you that comfortable open feeling so we have It's Tricky a little tricky the way he it's it's nice the way he approaches it yeah and and in terms of the um the kitchen so the dining coordinator it may be possible to have the dining coordinator in the kitchen and I know that we've talked some about having somebody operate you know a chef perhaps part-time for actually cooking the food or preparing the food preparing meals so there as that would be that would be the same person though oh it's the same person okay right so the dining coordinator is right now a um 24 hours a week so that's a considered full-time benefited position you know it's 24 hours it's over the 19 hours um so while we can't cook in our kitchen we have the dining coordinator because we've needed someone to run the lunch program they're not a chef that that staff member because they don't need to be but going and they don't need to be a chef in the new building either they just need to have food service um experience so I would foresee that person it it would they would just be in the kitchen a whole lot more cuz they would be chopping prepping doing dishes things like that that they don't do so the dining Coordinator would become the chef yes okay yes I'm using that word Loosely because Chef is like a certification no I okay so all right so they serve certified and all of that yes yes yep and and just for the public for the public let me say that publicly yes yes now and yes then it is important that the person who's running the kitchen should be in that general area anyway because we've got deliveries you got a lot going on there right that's what I'm saying so there's that there's some flexibility makes perfect sense to be a small office back doesn't have to be much typically that's what you see yeah often you can have like a stainless steel table a small back there small perhaps we could use the word cook all right cook yeah I mean the position is called dining coordinat understand for the I think that that may serve the the public may not fully understand what the Hope Future Hope is by using that terminology now if we move to the point that we have a dining coordinator who is actually preparing food and serving it isn't it possible that we're going to require some additional um workers in that area I think it could be I mean I I think how we would staff it is is probably further down the road but only relevant for this conversation in terms of preparing for the space so um I can only speak to the models I have seen before and I'll speak to the one that I've worked in before which was there's one dining coordinator and then just like we use senior tax workof and volunteers for reception um that becomes a great place then to place um other senior tax workof folks um so there's one staff member and three or four volunteers that help with meal prep and clean serving and clean up okay and we have you know senior taxt work off people helping serve the meals now too okay good all right so they might they may need more than the existing 24 hours they might need to go up to 30 hours or something but that position already exists and it is already a full-time and benefited position so I don't anticipate there being a huge budgetary change in that way um all right in terms of um does is everybody okay with the um administrative spaces yes okay uh in terms of the public spaces those that are in red I just want to say for the sake of the public like this is sort of us getting um our arms wrapped around this and then we will of course be open to public input and then when the first conceptual drawings come out and we have more public input there may be edits made to this of course um but this is just trying to get to a starting point to provide a place to provide input um so um the loung and library and the cafe area are they kind of probably felt like one room when we went um more one room in North Andover more spread out in Wilbraham um definitely two rooms two two locations of two yes that one was much further apart they were kind of one in the same in North Andover that were just in Townsen too I think it's right at the entrance in Townsen right right fire place yeah that's the that's the lounge and library and Townsen used to have a formal Cafe and they took it out to put the hallway in to go back to the new um the new addition oh is the cafe a for-profit thing is it like they sell the coffee and the pastries or is that just the the coffee and pastry is AA they basically put it out and people put a donation in I think pretty much most of the senior centers I've been to have um like we get a shop and safe donation every Monday for you know day old items right now it's only you know six or eight items um we would need to we'd need to work something else out with that but most of the senior centers receive a donation of baked goods um you know muffins croissants whatever whatever they receive is what there is to put out for the day and then the senior center funds the coffee and the coffee accessories the creamers and milks and then people just like Ken said put in a donation towards I think Cafe that the the kitchen is producing muffins things no no just a little separate seating it's tin it's not really it's not really a cafe it's just a a social are yeah it's more of a dropin social area so maybe you have attended a formal program um and you just wanting to visit with somebody afterwards you guys walk out together and you're like do you want to get a cup of coffee we can sit down and talk about that or maybe um maybe you're a van Rider and you came half an hour early and you've got some time to kill before the program you're going to you might have a cup coffee and a dut or something like that we see maybe two tables that said four people to a table something like that maybe seting for well I mean this this says here 20 occupancy of 25 um no you talking about the library you're talking about the cafe that's about the cafe says yeah so I mean I see it being that big but um some of them weren't that big but in wilam what she said was they took a donation and then they used the they got donated Goods but they used the donation to buy coffee and creamer and stuff like that so that it was relatively self-sufficient I think the thing that was the probably the one of the most significant I'm not going to say most important more significant things in the cafe was that design of the serving area how it was powered electrically what if it had a refrigerator you know the little pieces that fit together on the counter so that it all was efficient it was self serving yeah but it had you had to make some kind of sense you know you had storage for cops in this B so there was a little little bit to it yeah I think a occupancy of 25 might be a little high um if I had to guess and I again I have just the starting spreadsheet for wil Braham with was 16 and um North Andover they had Lounge Library Cafe combined at 20 cuz like I said they were a much tighter space so the only thing I would say about that before we cut back on things is the biggest complaint that I had from the references was that it was their areas weren't big enough yeah yeah so even if we figure well right now maybe 25 wouldn't look good but once we start operating we may quickly jump to that sure you know sure yep I'd hate to cut it back right yeah uh I think 14 for the lounge in the library is is probably just about right now that was the divided one right so one side was like with the fireplace and just a seating area maybe a sofa and some chairs and then the other side was Library stuff and again some seating right so if you're saying 14 you're really saying seven and seven or something right and and that I'll I can follow up and ask him about that um to see how he had that delineated because maybe he had the louder side of the fireplace rolled into that 25 I don't I'm not sure um you talking about the cafe the cafe because yeah because you're right otherwise it's like seven and seven yeah yeah um it's kind of funny how he does this so he carries 35 square feet a person for the library space and 20 square fet a person for the cafe space and all in all it comes out to the same numbers right I'm not so sure we need to concentrate on how he does the the mathematics but how how big is the space you know say in the Library part of the square footage is bookshelf and right things like that he's adding that in because yep you the bookshelves for all the books yeah he had he had a lot of case work in there too yeah lot of yeah M yeah it was very cozy and warm feeling in there in North and or wilham wilham wilham Handover as well I know that the placement of the fireplace was a significant concern but I mean for me the issue with the lounge Library Cafe I think we will have a good size for it let me say that it's where it is or where those three things are in relation to each other is which I think going to be the real sure what I've seen of his work they're always right when you come in they're almost adjacent to the um reception reception area and then there's always a component which is uh informational you know brochures and and um although all kinds of things about activities and although in North Andover I think it was a little bit further back back towards the back of the building which made the Library part of you know it was quieter right tucked back on the far wall there yeah and all just to be worked out um all right um the multipurpose room that would be the that would be the big large room typically you're able to divide it in the two examples we saw it was um a Ved ceiling on at least least half if not both sides um with windows that open from the second floor that looked down into it um that would be the room where large events would happen that would be the room where lunch would be served in um group fitness would happen in that room potentially um on the larger scale um they also had movies because they had a drop down screen right right it was basically connected to the kit on with flexibility the the one in gron which wasn't done by these folks uh but it to me it had a nice layout the the fitness room that is the largest conference room they had separate Fitness rooms um with with one with machines one without machines um um so what I would suggest is that we consider that the single largest multi-purpose room um perhaps I don't know if we wanted for Fitness or not or at any point would you have I don't know 80 people in a fitness class at a time or not or I I I there is a fitness room further down here with an occupancy of 12 people um that could be your day in day at one but for example if um if we got into line dancing you'd need it in that bigger room because line dancers need like a six to eight foot square a piece so it's a much um larger calculation per person than doing chair exercise or even Zumba or something like that and I was told by the person in in Gren that the biggest problem they had was they had one um Fitness area that was stationary equipment M and that next to it was a um a fitness room M and with the thought that oh well we could put them together but they found they couldn't put them together because they had the equipment you couldn't really you know do a lot of the other so they were using other larger room like the mul right purpose right and and I agree with that because you really don't want to have to be taking tables up and down every day after exercise is over but before you can serve lunch if you don't have to do that that's ideal if if you need to you need to but if you kind of have to have someone dedicated to do that because that does take some time yeah on here you know last time um Catelyn explained that the fitness number 11 was where equipment is okay thank you for I didn't realize that okay so that's the equipment focused right okay so into to Carolyn's point I suspect that in just from General ation for some of the folks around town and also talking to some some of the folks in other centers senior centers 12 I mean I can see where that number because 12 if you have machines in it would seem like you know the upper range of what you'd look like but I suspect that for Fitness classes we may well get quite a bit more than 12 at a time right and and thank you that's an important clarification with that one being the equipment room because yes so you would want to be able to have between 12 and 20 let's say people for for EXT 25 people in the class that we were using the the other room the tenant room okay we had some that must have been a tight squeeze it was terrible you had 25 in Disney we had 25 people in the room adjacent to this is a an in air and uh we had a leader who was leading the class and she took pictures of that M as a justification of why they needed more space yeah yeah so does that mean we need another room well that's for Fitness that's not necessarily so there's a couple of ways to think about this I think from from a programmatic perspective if you've got a multi-purpose room that seats 150 you're not going to have lunch set up for 150 so if that room is dividable you can run exercise on a regular basis in one half of it and your your lunch room in the other half divider up or down it doesn't matter um but you wouldn't want to have a room that seats 30 for lunch and then also have to set that one up and break it down each day for exercise so um could be the exercise there we go any of the senor as we looked at divide the room more than once they all had just one divider not two dividers and I think it's be well cuz you go long ways and that's a really long divider but also because no I was thinking if you cut it oh Oh you mean into like third and then you cut it again like that so half and then two4 one half could be two halves one one two4 and one could be a half then you could potentially have half that space for the workout it's different when we're talking about Fitness here we're talking about the room that's got the equipment in it right so number 11 either a workout room or exercise room or something like that so there's so number number 10 the classroom with the divider could also be the group fitness room okay it could you know what I'm saying because there's an arts and crafts classroom there's a classroom with a divider as I'm sort of sorting this out in my head the classroom with the divider could very well be the exercise room um as well it is the the I and I think there are some places that we saw the largest room doesn't need to be the only subdividable room I mean there may be other rooms that are also subdividable to go from I don't know 40 to 20 right or yeah I think you from my perspective I don't know how you would match up two dividers going at a perpendicular but those walls are expensive for from my understanding especially um you know there would be that piece um I like the idea you just said of of turning the Y and crest of what classroom excuse me classroom with a divider into the other half cuz that is also 1,200 which means half of it would be 600 20 by 30 is that enough space for that's class 20 X 30 is enough space for most most classes and if you were going to have um a a bigger class than that then you could what kind of equipment are you planning on having in the classroom are there going to be desks and chairs or is it just when you say classroom is it just an empty room or are there desks chairs so all of those all of the rooms will have flexible seating and um tables in them that will all kind either match or be coordinating with one another so that they have a place that they're intended to be but that they can flex and move from room to room um which is again why you have have so much storage storage yeah so um yes so all the idea is that all of these rooms with the exception of the fitness equipment room they're all very multi-purpose very flexible for use just keeping in mind that every time you move them around it takes time and with the exception too of the if there's billiard tables yes that's yeah that's a whole we're not to that number yet we'll talk about that in a second I want to talk about the multi-purpose room yes cuz I'm say again I I encountered this from several people when I did the um references several of them felt oh well I was told I was going to have a multi-purpose room for like 150 and I needed at least 175 and I wish I had had 200 now I I'm not sure by calculation if these are towns that were much bigger than us or what but I mean do you think there would be a case it would let you were doing a Christmas dinner or something um do you think there' be a case where you'd need more than 150 I think 150 is a decent room having had experience with a room that seats 100 comfortably and you can jam 10010 in if you're um a little Direct with where people with Walkers and wheelchairs sit um I think it's enough um 150 and that's for D I'm sorry and that's for dining or that's for seating um occupancy of if I I would be guessing here but I would guess that that is table seating because that's the intended use of that multi-purpose room it's lunch tables but that's a good question to ask and I I saw gron um three weeks ago or so and they had um a pretty large room but they kind of understood the distinction between seating for dining versus seating for presentations or what and sub so um I mean it's just something to be aware of so how many wa how many uh this is 25 so how he says 17t so in 40 by 65 okay so that so that room trying to figure out yeah so the the room in Townsend was 40 by 70 and we sat 100 for lunch we only had a couple of concerts in there but you could see closer to 200 when it was just chairs in a row like this so that's that is dining for 150 right that's the theable room basically yeah so you said the other one was 40 by 70 by 70 so that's 2800 2800 this is 25 a little less than that 50 so H that's I'll I'll follow up with I think that's a key element because it's it's our our Cent it's where we're going to have our F our focal events MH and we don't want to I mean it might be enough when we start but as it becomes more popular because you're not just serving air you get people from all over well to give a little perspective to that um I was in a line dancing class in Littleton and um the instructor was looking for you know additional places to have her have her class but her experience said that you know Littleton was sort of perfect because uh there's 495 in Route 2 there and it's it's easy to get to it's not off the Beaten Track and so more people are attracted to you know classes for example there you know any of our three sites are I mean they are within the town of air uh and it would take you know quite a bit of effort from somebody out of town to get there as opposed to almost anything in in Littleton you know being at 495 and two so you know I I would think that we probably shouldn't um you know should watch the budget and not overbuild um you know keeping that in mind that it probably will be quite air Centric yeah yeah I thought you used the word tension very remarkably earlier I think the tension is going to be evident mhm tension what for the tension between the size and the cost it's going to be tension all it is yeah right but and again I I I mean for me I I think that I am more interested in making sure the building is sufficient to meet the needs of the community the cost will that is I don't think for the purposes of this exercise we should be thinking about how much is it going to cost and can the town afford it no I agree with that we I mean I think for the purposes of this exercise it is what do we need to make sure that the building will meet the needs of the community not be too small that is we will not quickly outgrow it right um and that it will allow for us to expand the level and the quality of service available to the town seniors um when you know and we'll see what the push back is if any from the town regarding well we want you to have it comma but yeah um and then you know that negotiation will have to take place but for for my purposes I think we have to kind of yeah be optimistic and hopeful about what the town is capable of doing for its residents I don't know if we can get grants or what's out there for been pretty successful with that yes but but again I mean this is a particular point for me that is it is not the case that we can't afford it in my view the question is will we have the political will to afford it I'll take the stance that we're doing the right thing here the steps we've taken so far are correct by the right people we're analyzing it step by step at the end of the day we have plenty of uh analysis to go back on and and we and we'll get you know we started getting I think Community would have been helpful tonight but it's way too early for him to give us this I thought was a great start when we take this and turn it into a floor plan blueprint whatever you want to call it program M that's going to be better one thing I just thought of which I don't think we asked him for was I'm not sure if his concept plans are are going to include the Furnishings I've already a note to myself so that the Furnishings Landing in the floor plan will give us an idea this is how many seats land here this is how many tables land here and when you look at your room your your multi-purpose room and you do set up all the table tables how does it all work out with the aisles you know going between the tables and the full length of the room so we really need to look at not just the size of the room but the layout inside the use the useful space are they round are they Square are they rectangular thing you know somebody and I'm sure he has it he probably has something like that but I don't think we have asked him to include that in the proposal at this point I'm not sure I can follow up with him and ask him most of so that it proves out that you know if you say there's 110 let's show me 110 you know whatever the number is right right we know that it's a comfortable fit but I think that didn't he say that he kind of that allowance per person for that particular room allows for the furniture well he did say that but then I recall a conversation in wilham that's why I've got the note that we're not sure if his contract at the end of the day includes the furniture oh oh the contract so if he's not they they had a Furniture consultant who was a friend of the Cil of Aging yes so they moved that away but they they basically that's how they could afford they had to cut some money uh in order to get it past but that's two separate things though will the concept drawings include you could fit four round tables this is how four verses like kind what these are the actual round table so I think in Wilbraham they were saying that he acknowledged he wasn't good with colors and furnishings and turn that over to them to do but I I think that the the overall budget project the overall budget had the Furnishings included in it it's just that he wasn't the source of them okay I think we'll be clarifying that you know as we go forward but for the yes agreed for the drawings I think though I just like that feel better if I can see the fit right is it a 5ft round it is a 6ft rounds is it an 8ot rounds what is he posing and what's the aisle space going to be yep between the tables when we push that multi-purpose room where it's the biggest you know impact changing things around that was yeah okay coming back to the multi-purpose room um I would like to see that be all vaulted um mhm in North Andover it was all vaulted in Wilbraham it was half vaulted right am I remembering that correctly I think in North Andover it was because we we talked about it brief I think part of it was not vaulted in North Andover well there um they had the upper walkway above it yeah it was like a straight wall and a slanted wall but in Wilbraham half of it was like that and then half of it was a flat on story ceiling right the second floor on top of it it had to do with the size of the second floor being a lot smaller than the size of the first floor right the second floor there's no second floor above the the multi-purpose room right but on half of the multi-purpose room in wilam there was ceiling it was a slope ceiling away you were looking at the I think we were looking at the roof line of the the second floor went up but it was cut but when we went we were looking at the big the the big room where we started going outside looking at the bricks there was a wall there that was the divider that wasn't the whole room that was half the room correct to I left when we walked into the room yes on the other side of the divider where we walked out and walked back in again it was not vaulted over there so one thing I have heard a couple of people say is that they would have loved to have been able to do a pickle ball court indoors in the winter and in order to do that you had to have the vaed ceiling throughout because otherwise you just mess up the ceiling as people's balls hit into the ceiling and there there was also an issue with the screen for movies because there was a lower wall and he that's where he put the screen and it was too low for people to see yeah yeah that one so they had to move it yeah that one's a no-brainer the the screen the screen has to go on the Ved wall because if not it's not up high enough for everyone to be able to see yeah you have to be careful with vating everything because he puts all of his Mechanicals in the Attic it's fascinating with this it's really fascinating so I think there'll be lots of things that you can say I would like this I would like that and see what he envisions and then there'll be lots of things that will be like so your thought is two indoor possible two possible indoor pickle ball courts um well I'd have to see what the I'd have to compare I don't know off the top of my head with the square footage of the pickle ball cord is but I'm going to guess there's only going to be one that will fit would fit in that space um by the time you get you have to have the five foot buffers on either side um but in terms of the programmatic needs what do you think one pickle ball indoor pickle ball court will yeah CU I mean we're not we're not doing a Rec Center so I think we have to I think one would be fine two would be ideal but I don't think you can justify expanding the scope of the entire room in order to get that right so um but I would love if there is if there's a choice between layout a that allows that whole room to have this the vaulting and layout B that only half of it does I would pick the one that has the full vating because that would be the added benefit for me okay um squash I no hand ball racket ball um game room with billiard tables item six item six there was one of the places we saw that didn't do uh billiard table they used they were doing pingpong and there and there was the one place that had billiard stable that they put in two and they were too big that was for people to use Willam they they struggled with the they had a real big they bought a very large uh bliard tables but um I just wonder how much people use them what I think it's a part of an trying to attract more males to them um in Groton they had the billiard table in the in the lobby I see which they said got a lot of it it gets a lot of action just so you walk in the door and take to the look to the right The Bard table is there and the women are playing it all the time she said really um and I've also heard that you know in terms of the Man Cave thing um you know the problem for me for billiard tables is that they're kind of a single-use thing you ain't ain't moving a bill you ain't moving aate billion table around so um I think that in terms of discussing this and they're expensive if we kind of think about what would a game because I've also seen a gentleman actually I met today was talking with today wants darts and and you know just kind of a game room a card room darts um uh the um one where they throw the bean bag cornhole cornhole um so there are so all I would say is that Billiards kind of restricts the ability to use the room in in a number of different ways there may be other Alternatives but I know that bards is a pretty popular activity for a lot of people you can always get uh a pingpong table top that sits on top of the bilard table and just goes in a closet when it's not in use if you had if one of the there were two people who mentioned that card playing people do not want to be in the same room with billyard playing people it was a small petition they don't like the noise really concent let's do a deep dive on that one one she put it like a bar it was about this high that you could sit at and people sat at it and sometimes worked on their computers but it it blocked a little bit of here versus so they had their individual areas can you remind me what it looked like in North Andover I remember what it looked like in wil Bram what did that area look like in North Andover were too large bilard tables that she regretted having there because they couldn't move them were they in the far back part of the upstairs they were upstairs um it was glass on all the walls that's not long that I mean it was a big room it was it I mean there was more than enough space for the billiard tables um you're thinking of but she she was I mean from her and again you know different population but from her perspective I think she felt like they were IM IM immovable objects that um were taking up quite a bit of space like she wasn't getting as much bang for her Buck for that room just because the Border space you needed around them they couldn't work out way and the size of them they couldn't work out way for people two teams to play so and it was a very large room I mean I I think for us in this town a good option is to have a program that you use billiard's Cafe yeah you know you know every every day at 1:00 you know there's a Billiards tournament or or you know whatever to set it up as part of the program in a different space I would be in favor of that because that's using our community resources and not repeating something yeah um until they go out of business or if they go out of business maybe we buy their pool tables um switch it around um but like for example we're starting a bowling league in June and it's why far more successful than I thought it was going to be going over to Harvard LS when they reopen in June um so yeah doesn't mean the senior center can't have a senior Billiards team or time that we rent out over there um but it doesn't necessarily need to be in in our building I would be more in favor of creating much more of a game room Vibe by buying the actual five sided poker tables that flip over what's that not pool table pper pool what's it called pumper pool bumper pool right something like that um and darts what like a more flexible option um maybe a Wii thing where you can play so I would say that I would I I almost can't think of a person that would say gez I'm not using the senior center because there's no billion table down there so to me it's just Wicked low PRI I feel it puts this in competition too really low priority but is this if you're going to have it at all I put one in not two well but that's interesting because if you if you put one in you're putting it in for casual use that's a whole different thing like the cafe versus if you want to have it as a structured event and that's the question what what would be the purpose if you had two of them you'd be doing it as a structured event I'd rather see dedicate the space and more exercise and activities than people playing Billiards or pool I think this is why we need input from the public yeah this is an there's a lot of people are going I'm counting on them to have the bilard table but uh is it is the billiard um is the billiard Center accessible yes they back they have an I know I've had to use this stair yeah there's a long long ramp in the back right and then the elevator yeah all the time yep um so all right soard so game room with billiard tables as a question mark and I and I do think there's going to be a lot of places that we're gonna some places where we really critically need the Public's input some places where we think we know and then we go to them to confirm that but I think the billiard table piece and the use of that room for sure is much more open in my perspective I'm not sure so the card and Conference Room which I think if we looked at the at either one of those examples they kind of flow into the same space I like the divider you know when I was looking at wil Braham I was going oh I love that bar they put up with three or four essentially bar stools with area with Outlets so if you had a laptop or you wanted to just charge your phone or whatever you could do that um it'd be really cool if the friends the future Friends of the air seniors could do like a stained glass kind of thing with maybe an air building or something like something iconically air on it that would add to the game room Vibe but sort of further delineate that space because then over on the on the card and card and Conference Room side you would want smaller tables designed for easy access of the cards you don't want big tables where you have to really reach in there so that set up to have you know four or six tables but of a smaller scale what about cribbage yeah we've got I mean we've got between eight and 12 cribbage players now um hopefully that will grow even more so um you that that would be the space they'd be at um I tried to get board games going and nobody seems to want to do it but I'll continue to try but that would be a great place to do board games in that space too okay any thoughts about that no cuz that yeah that would seat 15 I I can't imagine we would have more than 15 players and if you had more more than 15 players where you're all talking to each other the noise level is going to get too high anyway so you would break it up into two if you needed two sessions of cribbage or whatever you could always do that should we drop it down to 14 or raise it to 16 because don't you usually have everything in even numbers when you're playing games get and of course you know my model for this is um I play duplicate bridge in chelsford and we have sometimes Max of 10 tables so that's you know 40 40 people um but that's probably unique I you know I don't know of any other senior centers that that you'd probably have to put that in the multi half of the multi-purpose room you could probably yeah as long as you had card table size tables card tables Yep this is a pretty small room he's talking about and I think that really is more less a conference room not a card room could be used a few people look play cards but not many 250 square fet it's strange not to have a dedicated conference room most of them do this fig it should be a conference room well that's a conference room for not the administration's conference room but rather or is it meting conference room there's only one so I mean I'm so I I was thinking that the administratively there would be some room where you could sit 10 or 12 although there would be no reason why that couldn't be the same room I guess no that's right so the conference room would have to sit so let's say we had a Council on Aging board meeting so that would be held in one half of room number 10 or one half of room number nine okay and not in the conference room as you would see well cuz you need people to be able to sit in the room as well with you right so I I I'm not really sure why it's called a Carter conference room I think it's the based on the the ones I've SE the models I've seen of of his work it's that it's two pieces of the same room but I'm I'm making notes of things to ask him about further in Sudbury there was long conference room with those very huge um video you know things that moved around right and they had a uh current events program U several days a week where people came in and talked about news and watch things and all yeah I me that's how I Envision for those purposes pretty popular that could people could come in and talk about that so U I just don't like the idea of that it's either or you know um because cards are very popular we have a program at um Autumn Ridge mhm every Wednesday and it's packed I don't know exactly how many people but they play cards yeah and um so I do think we need yeah we need clarification on what he's talking about there I think it's just a conference room myself I I'm thinking of the card room as being part of the game room that's what I was thinking too and the again not if you have Billiards cuz the cards people aren't going to be wanting to be around okay uh arts and class craft Arts and crafts classroom that's an occupancy of 20 and that would be something with tables right they showed M and a sink definitely he doesn't mention the sinks do we know have a way of knowing which rooms have sinks I I don't think that's determined yet um yeah cuz my preference would be as many of them as possible right yeah yeah definitely AR um because again I as programs EB and flow and over time you might have one person or two people that are kind of regular users that are champions of this program and that program flourishes for four five six years and then they move to a different stage of their life or have different interests then it might get smaller like programs get bigger and smaller over time um and so the ability to move them to say well you guys used to meet in this room but now you're going to meet in this room is important yeah but it it would also kind of expand you know it may contract over a time but some programs and depending on the population specifics it could expand so you start off in the conference room but now you're going to end up in the multipurpose of the multi-purpose room right yep yep so so the more sinks the better um so now classroom divider 1,200 ft so that's a that's a big room a nice room that you can use for things uh and that's yeah that's the one we had said we thought group fitness would be in and then the fitness equipment room I know people have had strong opinions one way or the other about whether there's equipment whether there is a fitness equipment room um I think if it's programmed well then it can be popular um I've certainly been into senior centers where they haven't been used at all and I've been in senior centers where they're being used kind of all the time so um hard to pred charges like $60 I don't know if it's a month or whatever but it's pretty significant fee for anybody to use that room so it's the one with the equipment in it yeah the one with the equipment room and it has to be booked in advance but that's a lot of money yeah I think so and that equipment is very expensive yes so um so what kind of equipment are we talk are we talking treadmills or are we talking a universal machine or treadmill I've seen it you know I think with I forget maybe Andover North Andover had I mean it varies widely I mean some extra Cycles one had a universal machine some just have U treadmills and exercise bikes and some hand we yeah um so it's going to I mean as a general proposition I have heard from many people in air that the fitness classes and having exercise space is very very important yeah it's also I think true that the all three of our interviewed Architects stress the importance of kind of physical fitness and being critical to allowing older people to thrive as they get older I think it is I mean or it was the big reason that people went it still is yeah so what how big the room and what equipment I'm that I mean I think this would be something again you know for the public to kind of weigh in on oh yeah um it's hard to visualize that kind of size for the fruit so yeah so Katie you said um the use varied greatly uh do you know how how would you um work a program so that it would that it that it would promote the use of of fitness equipment so I would suggest having um either a senior Tex workof or another volunteer to um sort of monitor the room and to have a an orientation required before you go in and then as far as programming doing things like walk-in contests like go walk log your time you know on this board you can make little friendly competitions who's been here who hasn't been um you can set it up like what is the gyms that orange theory that does you know everybody's going to walk for four minutes and then you're going to stop and we're going to do oh it's intermittent um what is it right you know have like everyone can rotate between the stations and move you can program that in a way that makes it almost where you could have drop in hours and then structured programming hours and then when people see they come for a structured program because they're not really sure how the elliptical works right or whatever it is um but they come for a structured program or you know they've never been one to lift weights before but they come to the structured program and then all of a sudden it's not scary anymore it's something that they it was a supported experience and then maybe they start using it in the open gym hours afterwards because they feel comfortable now um I also can see um an opportunity to Market that to folks who are recently retired who are often times trying to figure out how to fill their time and how to readjust their budget um maybe they as professional you full-time workers have had a gym membership but now on their new budget they're trying to figure out how to not have a have a gym membership and so you can kind of Court those folks in um so it I don't see it as a full replication of the gym down here by the railroad tracks or Anytime Fitness over there but having the main core things that someone would want in order to maintain functional fitness as they age so he's saying it's 4 20 ft so that's like 20 by 20 2 22 something that's not large you know that's that's a yeah I don't think we need more a lot more than that that's right that's what we think it takes and oh we have to figure how to I think he's jumping the gun there before you can decide the size of a fitness room you need to know the size of the equipment that you're putting in there from his experience he's he's coming up with this if you decide to put a universal in there or a universal and a couple of stair treads you need to be able to get all the way around the universal M I think that's where the 35 square ft per person comes in so that's a 7 by5 block which I think is not very much 7 by5 is plenty for a treadmill or an elliptical or bike well like I said but it depends like if you were to put free weights in or free weights take up a little more space you need racks you need a universal or I I wouldn't do any um any by Universal do you mean like Olympic weights well no a universal is a is a pulley almost like a pulley system it's a whole system it's like a a 14 a 14 station unit where at one point you're doing lats another Point you're doing situps another one you're doing I I think that would be a really great thing to take to the public and ask them there's a lot more ways to go wrong or hurt yourself with incorrect form on something like that and so I I think I would want to ask what people are really looking for um because that might require a little more monitoring well as a as a younger older senior right I would be looking for more of that type of equipment as opposed to okay treadmills and that's a good point um okay all right I we ask him about that um I'll ask him what he thinks the 4 what will fit in the 420 ft and then and he'll he'll have a mockup of what recomend what does he recommend to put in to right yep um anything else for the fitness equipment room yeah the other thing to remember on the fitness equipment was there's got to be storage in there too I'm not sure if he counts that separately or not but it was definitely a storage area in the one we saw in wilham right it had all those Cubbies yeah a buies and some other stuff there going on I don't think I don't think the one in gron had much I mean just because everything was stationary I mean the treadmills and the it's not very big it was pretty I was surprised at how small it was actually but they said it was exceptionally well used except between like 6:00 and 9:00 a.m. it was yeah you know and there a Lo 6:00 a.m. in any of these bathroom so there is the the companion restaurant room that does have a shower but the it's in yeah which is a whole different discussion but its intended use was not for showering after going to the gym no just yeah um yeah okay stick in a locker room so you come in you change into your your workout clothes a locker you can throw your your street clothes in you work out then you change back into your street yeah I don't I don't think any of the any of the places were you know that kind inam there were Cubbies so that you could would have put those things in while you're working but you would have just had to go into the regular bathroom stall to switch your clothes um for the wellness room nurse's office that's 150 square ft yeah they had some nights they were small rooms but there was room for you know some tables or there were like two tables so if somebody but they also were doing some massage and things like that and then there was the wall that had a big sink in it and storage and um I guess a desk area those were very nice do we have to figure a nurse for staff no the town nurse visits us once a month and does a well adult Clinic she um takes blood pressure she can do blood sugar though she doesn't most time she can do basic wound care um but mostly people come yep mostly people come we want to have more of a nurse presence to do Wellness at least once a week I I suppose that's we could um I I could see if the town you wouldn't want to put a nurse on staff I mean no but um but if there was public interest in that um but that room is really versatile the so the nurses can sometimes come back to do a health education program but I have a a bunch of different sources for health education programming um that would be a good thing to take to the public as well like do they see would they like more Access to Health Services right um or do they feel like those needs are met elsewhere so so the nurse is the public health nurse yes it's nooba Valley Public it's not the not an employee of the town it's employee of nooba Valley Public Health it's the nooba associated Boards of Health yes yeah orine I thought that room was also intended to be um in the event of an emergency we could someone would go in there and you know there'd be some first aid if needed and things along those lines yeah yeah they might have a defibrillator so that room that room is very versatile it would be one of the few rooms that wouldn't have glass doors or glass walls at all any Frost any of that um it is great for massage massage is so popular at most senior centers um you can typically find a massage therapist who Senior Center hours are their off peak times and are often willing to give below market rate um massages that's good um Podiatry um sometimes a hairdresser um if you do a hairdresser you have to put in a hairdresser sink which is a little bit hard yeah manicure Services all of those um those kinds of services can happen in there and then it is again an overflow space for a private right um meeting if it that's important um so moving into the kitchen um I love that there is a separate pantry and receiving room that also could be the place that is shared with an eventual dining coordinator's desk um I don't know enough about kitchen design but one thing Ken and I noticed at the tours that we went to is that the commercial kitchens were quite large in there um I would be I I've seen some really big kitchens there and then I've also seen you know the Shirley Senior Center has a commercial kitchen and it's quite possibly the tiny commercial kitchen I've ever seen so something in between there but if I was going to pick a place to you know negotiate on square footage a little bit I feel like maybe his standard kitchen is a little larger than we need we could figure out ways to economize on size there there might be specifications I don't know or I'm not aware of I definitely want a commercial kitchen but a commercial kitchen that's going to serve the amount of food that our multi-purpose rooms how many people you're planning on feeding out of it that's what generates the size of your kitchen because it determines how big your walk-in is how big your refrigerator is how many stoves ovens grills or what kind of food are you planning and feeding out of it right Dave has got a lot of experience oh okay I'm I'm a Johnson Wales graduate W okay yeah so I mean so that so your next job opportunity looking for a job I have I have several I got go down and apply so I can be their handyman first that's right um so you know some of the ones we looked at there was just there was enough space for like 10 people to be working in there they were built for restaurants I mean a first class restaurant would love some of those kitchens yeah we but like for example like to be very specific for a for a second there was space in I think it was in will braham's kitchen you know how like and you have the commercial dishwasher where you bring the thing down right um happy memories of high school right so there was enough runway on either side for three racks then what was actually being washed and three racks on the other side I don't actually think that the senior center needs that amount of square footage on a dishwashing line you don't need that on the on the inside but you need it on the outside because you have to wait after it comes out you have to wait for it to cool and dry before you can pick it up and put it away as a person who's lived without nerve endings in my fingertips for a long time after a nursing home experience that did not have that maybe I have to agree with you um well that's that's more of a sanitation aspect than anything else because you don't want to Stack the stuff while it's wet got to let it dry right before you can put it away because you run into border health issues as you don't right one of the things that sorry no bad what what there's definitely going to be a kitchen consultant involved here um as a subcontractor and I have worked with some of them and built some kitchens but those folk can help us as well we a lot of it's going to depend on how high tech are we going to get with the equipment because there's some equipment out there now that it's basically you put a whole rack a sheet pan Rack in there and you can cook 1,000 hamburgers in 15 minutes right if you wanted to it depends on what level of what you're going for you're going to have to decide decide what type of menu you're going to be putting before you can decide how big your kitchen's going to be you going to have tilting you're going to have a tilting SK you're going to have a steam Kettle so I I think that for this again it will be something that I you know I would be looking for information from the public and it's been my experience in just talking to the other senior centers that that meal time it tends to be well subscribed and that it's the more popular time for the people to be there um but how active and engaged does the public feel like they want in terms of stopping in for lunch you know going to the larger formal meals or not um uh some I think it was Andover not not North Andover but Andover had breakfast sometimes right um that they would be serving um so getting some feedback feedback from the public about if you know how active in engaged do we want because then to your point then we'll know how many people are we cooking for are we cooking for 40 people three times a week for lunch or are we cooking for you know 150 4 6 times a week yeah well so if I can just make a projection and I make I would project that we're cooking for 40 people five days a week and we're cooking for 75 or so once a month and then four five times a year we're going to fill our room to the 150 the meals Meals on Wheels come out of the same kitchen or is Meals on Wheels a different program Al together so Meals on Wheels right now is provided by mock who used to cook it in Fitchburg now they're K cooking it in walam um that Co could change that process entirely uh and I think that's a that's an interesting question um some senior centers that have a commercial kitchen they just have the little machine and then the thing that seals the top and they whatever you're eating in the senior center is what goes out for Meals on Wheels um are we do we ever but it's not it's not a large number of people either way I wouldn't make um a decision on the kitchen around that either way probably so are you thinking as soon as you get in there that you're we're actually going to be cooking it or that you're going to be doing what you're doing now where you're getting it from other locations I would I would consider that to be completely Personnel dependent right if I was able to tee up someone to do that in the process of opening I would absolutely open with it that way but opening the new building will be a gradual thing right but yes I would I would like to see that go as as quickly as possible okay I know when I did the the um references the kitchen was something that was a big thing with everybody and I don't think there were any of them that were actually cooking there and one that might have been planning to start soon and they all said it's very expensive proposition they do believe it should be a professional one but they felt they might have overbought you know that the equipment they had bought was not wasn't necessary that there could have been other ways of you know making it less and um so there seem some confusion there the other thing it's interesting sorry but you know Catlin emphasized the quality of the building and the his the insulation factor and all the things he works at the most inefficient part of that building is going to be the kitchen that they just burn electricity like crazy running all those cool you better know what you're buying and have it controlled because you'll be running coolers all night long energy efficient energy inefficient you know so it's cost equipment and it's expensive to run sure I think that is an area where we have to concentrate one thing that I I will say is helpful is that some some senior centers don't have a dining infrastructure in PA place like a Personnel structure in place or a budget in place because if they have always served just the mock meals then there's no line item in their budget for a dining program um because we never really used that I mean since I've come on we have not used mock as anything other than the meals on on Wheels um our main dining program Tuesday through Thursday and most Fridays is catered lunch there's already a budget established in our existing Department budget um and there's also a dining coordinator a a benefited you know position in our budget so making that transition for us into a new building into a fully functioning working commercial kitchen will be much smaller than for a town that didn't have anybody on any kitchen staff in their budget they've got to go to town meeting and ask to hire a new person um not that you can't do that you absolutely can but it's one more hurdle they have to wait till town meeting to get the funding and then they have to wait till the next fiscal year for it to be accessible um same thing for a meals budget for the money to buy all that food with right now we're spending all that money buying cater um you know in the in the new building in the new kitchen that money would become like raw food materials which will go a whole lot further yeah you know in that way so that I think is hopefully working in our favor yeah but to you know to Ellen's Point um the senior Cent centers that I visited also did not cook their own lunches or their own meals and um you know I also am concerned about you know over over you know putting too much equipment and too you know too expensive um for kitchen and I I think that's something that working with a kitchen consultant will be will be huge for to try and figure out um you know how to accomplish it in the smallest and most costeffective way because cuz I I agree I don't think we need to cook a thousand burgers in in 15 minutes that that's we're going to run into code issues there people are going to be telling us what we need to do there's a minimum there are minimums but how you accomplish them there's a lot of be some minimum if you ask the right question see the problem is is people don't know what the equipment is capable of so they come in and they just tell you this is what you need so that's where I'll be on your side I'll be like well wait a minute why can't we put this as opposed to that cuz now I can do this this and this in there and every piece of equipment you're going to put in there is going to need special electrical it's going to need special Plumbing it's going to need a floor drain it's going to grease tra I mean it goes on and on the kitchen itself is a project um I was just going to say we also have to keep in mind that if this site is going to be an alternate Emergency Center you know then it does need to have the professional um kitchen and if you know if people are um there right well and that's have we determined but that would come we have not determined that that is something that's still up for conversation but either way you're not going to be able in that way you're actually I don't think you would increase your capacity because you'd have people likely on CS in the multi-purpose room like half with cs and half for dining so it's not like you suddenly would be able to put a thousand people in there you're still going to have to work within the existing space and stuff so um that's a good but in terms of shower and freezer capacity and food storage and all the rest of it I think that the shelter would be right um okay let and again I'm not prejudging whether or not it should or shouldn't be but I mean there may be money money available for the and it's if it is I understand that air has a shortage in that area so I mean if we all I'm saying is in order to get this thing passed too and we're looking um to convince the citizens of air to vote for it you know the more we can say and it's going to also serve as this and it's going to serve as that you know that that might help us right and and if there are grants for emergency shelter yeah things or you know other other Town monies right yeah that's a good point man all right um kitchen big deal do I good he said kitchen's a big deal yeah well you um all right so group toilets and compa Canon toilet so group toilets as we discussed in depth at the last meeting it means your standard bathroom with multiple stalls in it um one for men and one for women and then line 18 is the companion toilet which is one larger handicapped accessible restroom that if you need assistance there's plenty of space for two people to be in there um his design all include sort of a walk-in fiberglass shower they were fiberglass weren't they yeah like a molded yeah yeah um which my my anecdotal understanding is that if we were to use it as a if we were to try to use the building as a shelter we would need more than one you would need one designated for men and one designated for women or just two options you couldn't have just one um I would need to I would need to look into those shelter what are the shelter requirements just as they are and then what are the shelter requirements to get funding to contribute they may be different might be a Avenue we go down may not be um I mean he he has sold that shower as a place where people can clean themselves up if they have an accident I I don't like that um idea we're catering to largely independent older adults we don't have Cathy said they had never used it right if you don't have if you don't have towel service and stuff I think you know accidents happen but most people are going to want to go home in that situation and they're not going to resolve it in the senior center but um so you thinking that that we might not need that I think we should have it I definitely think we should have one if not two I mean to me it's sort of like the billiard table do none or do two um because I don't know what one does one doesn't get us to shelter eligibility and you can you can put a shower in each of the group toilets yeah but I we could certainly do that I'm sorry shelter eligibility is two I would have to look into it but an otally when I so I've been sitting in on um the C team The Disaster Response Team with police and fire and DPW and just anecdotally as part of that conversation they were saying you have to have at least two so I would I would want to go back and look at pieces of paper that say that to determine that but that was my anecdotal understanding what do a housekeeping at the S the who's going to this will be a housekeeping project this building yeah we definitely need a housekeeper yes okay maintenance yes um so the town has a facilities okay um they have a facilities manager and a custodian now and so that this would become an additional property we have a housekeeper at the senior center now um but this would become of a scope much when you put you know bigger toilets and all that it's going to take some work to keep it clean yeah yeah yep y um so we're going to stick with the one companion toilet is that what you like hel well we're going to you're going to research I mean at some point we have to make a decision is this going to be an an emergency shelter option or it's not because if it is we have to meet the requirements for that okay right would you like me to reach out to representatives of the C team yeah um or do you want to what were you going to make a motion about did it not include that that it not include what emergency shelter that we're concentrating as a senior center project and the other is beyond our scope yeah but I mean if the town that we don't have we don't have experience with we don't I don't understand it well we don't have experience with a lot of this with fitness equipment either but um if um if the town is short emergency um resources okay and there's we know the way that climate change is going right now anything could happen so if it I don't know how much more it would cost us to to make it um meet the requirements and and kind of get two for one out of that there's no two for one anymore so I I I mean I think that first we need to determine what the requirements are of an emergency shelter are obviously and secondly understand does air need more or how many more emergency like under what circumstances is an emergency I've lived here 20 years almost uhuh and to the best of my knowledge there has never never been an emergency such that people had to shelter in a public building don't you just go to the school well that's the point is that the school that's it would be the second where the money is that's where all the money is in the school buildings that's where all the design is that's where all people congregate that's where sprinkler system everything's there our building would have well we would we had one we had that massive snowstorm on Halloween where they actually opened the school I don't know how many people actually went so when we the only and that's the school is saying that it was open as an emergency shelter since I've been here right I've been here 25 years and I think that's the only time that I ever remember having the school opened as an emergency shelter I don't know if I got there cu the the roads were all yeah but we don't and we don't know how many people used it for the sake of moving the conversation on this particular cuz I don't think we can solve this around the table um would it would it be okay if if I speak with the town manager's office and the CT team to get maybe a status on if they want to have an official statement and if they would like to Advocate you see what I'm saying like to to say do they do they need this would they want to Advocate it for it and do you see what I'm saying like so that it wouldn't be us trying to guess it or figure it out why does it say three where it's say Quantity three does that means he's having three companion toilets with showers because it says occupancy Na and then quantity is three so does that mean there's three of these in the building no it's just saying that three people can f it at at 70 square ft that would not be quantity cuz all the other ones it's like there's one room there's one room then you get down here there's four toilets three handy three yeah that's just two janitor closets two classroom stor two exteria I'm I'm interpreting that that he means that he's putting three somewhere in the building no it's not going back to um I'll I'll just say it run there was definitely a a group toilet a set of group toilets upstairs and downstairs that's how you get to the four for the group toilets there is I believe a oh did we lose our we went over our hour no I had it scheduled till 9:30 no I just think the person logged off oh oh okay okay um so then there I think there was a staff companion like a a companion bathroom outside but not one with a shower I'd have to look back and see but I'm I'm making a list of questions to follow a good question we there's only one one with the shower for sure why does it say three cuz the guy made a mistake he's he never makes a mistake no believe we going to see a lot of mistakes before this is done before this is done we will find a lot of over and over again he's just trying to all he's trying to do is get it to 210 he doesn't care about the stuff in between really because the 3 * 70 21 that's 210 210 so I just wanted to point out that if we follow the schedule our next meeting will be with the fire chief police chief building you know all the people who would be concerned uh if we if we want to be this to be an emergency shelter can I clarify that Miss yeah that's not the point of the meeting we're meeting right now only on the Fe the land study not on the final design so when we meet with them I think it's they're talking about Public Safety to get to the location rather than the design okay that's my interpretation of what we are right now cuz we're not in that stage yet we're not building the building yet we're trying to go through a land survey all that stuff so when I'm looking at this is this is Will braham's floor plan um they have outside the staff outside the staff area like the main hallway they have the men's and women's group toilet and then tucked kind of next to the elevator is an an ADA restroom on the first floor not with a shower and then on the second floor there's the group one the set of group and then the one with the showers on the second floor so that's off to the right yeah um but I I'll clarify that with him um Lobby vestibule which I think is just the main hallway in where the information center is um that I see us flowing kind of all with the cafe and the reception desk area and the lounge and library but that adds up to a lot of square feet for sure um and then in terms of the storage area um I see a nice size Janitor's Closet that's important um 500 square fet for storage in the multi-purpose room 100 that's because you got all the tables and chairs right right um then and we had said that that could be divided up into two rooms um I definitely want there to be enough storage in there I like I've said before I've played Tetris with tables and chairs before and it's not fun um and then arts and crafts one large and he was saying he doesn't really like to put doors on them he likes them to be kind of Al coov so that they're welcoming for the different groups that are meeting to go in and get their stuff and if you've got a tub or whatever you don't want to have to deal with opening a door while you've got it in your hand um the classroom storage has two closets because that's the room that is divided um there's a math era right there too cuz 75 * 2 is not mistake good catch you found another one I'm surprised the software isn't doing those calculations it's cuz he's mixing text with well but there there may be four of them if there's four classroom storage then that suddenly becomes correct if the formula is based off of yeah um exterior storage I think that one was when he was talking about the need to not leave your ice and sand buckets in the vestibule um and then the mechanical area which is that it's kind of odd that if it's exterior to the building why did he count it in his square footage so well no CU it's it's an exterior door into a room where you can store your stuff is how he explained it not like it's a shed outside it's part of the building so you just come in store all your shovels and all your rakes and all your without having a storage shed so it was yeah it was um in this one you can see here like this is Will Braham it's here like this is the main dooran it opens over here yeah yeah um thats is there um do we need an audio visual storage room or anything well yeah I was just about to cuz I know in um sbur um Andover there was a computer room which had all the servers in it I don't know if he's linking that in with the mechanical area cuz it was upstairs but don't we need that that's you know I we briefly touched on it last time um as I understand it Mr Catlin is kind of punting on the it infrastructure AB infrastructure portion of the design that so he doesn't see himself as being the one who will be driving that process I I I reached out to some other senior centers and asked them specifically over the last couple of days what do they do in terms of it and audio visual um and it's a it's a hodg podge of things it's heavily driven by the the resources within the town at the time that they're building the senior center M the towns that had a robust it Department that could design a system or provide recommendations about what would be needed for how many people and um they relied on the town's it Department to kind of carry the water on the issues around it infrastructure um some um so there would and for some senior Senators they would have an a closet at least a closet you know necessary to hold the servers and and all the rest of it others again depending on the town the level of integration with the public access cable people became right was significant um so all of this to say I think that we need to kind of have a a conversation before we go too far down the road about how are we as a town going to be handling do we have a robust it not presence not really well you could use the term robust and that could probably cover a lot of stuff so for the sake of tonight's discussion you're bringing up a good point where will be all of the hardware that goes with the tech in each room this closet back here has got all the access to the things you need I don't know that I saw that as far I what I have seen is when you go up on the third floor right before you go left into the V there's the server there is a server but I'd like to better understand that when we hire a a tech consultant or whoever that's going to be um because if you need to feed a DVD in that's getting projected from the ceiling projector onto your big screen you don't want to run to the third floor in order to put the DVD in and come back again so um so the clarification there was a server room on there was yeah at the on it was a separate room on at the okay that landing at the third floor where she unlocked that door on the there was another door up there um that's not in my floor plan I didn't and there was very large in one of them wiam or something very large um movable AV Equipment subur it subury that had the very large you know I'm just saying where are they storing that so the explanation they gave us in sby was that's why the doors were so hot well was one of the reasons in the stage they had doors because they had to roll the I mean they could just leave them in the rooms but I feel like they were using either equipment or grant money there was some caveat to that to why they had all of that on carts that was moving around versus installed things some of the other centers we went to had 85 in TVs in every single room to support exercise lecture topics you know things like that so um I do think that's a good point though that probably sooner rather than later need to start to understand what are some of those options do they require accessory closets and just making sure because I don't want to bump into a rack of equipment when I'm taking chairs in and out you know it's got to have its own space and the extent to which and this has came up in a couple of the extent to which the it infrastructure within the new physical building is or is not integrated into the town's Network and how does that work in terms of the police monitoring the security cameras and and the servers serving the people in town hall are they accessible by the people in the new building um that is the network is the thing to what extent will the network within the build the Senior Center building fit into the network within the the other parts of town or not um right and how all that is going to work together um and that's expensive I mean in terms of the budget it's not something he's budgeting for but it's something that we have to budget for security and and it will not fall under his cost estimates okay so are we almost I'm just it's it's 11 after yeah you're still on vacation time yeah yes all right so we have talked about the potential of the equipment rental room I put that in as number 27 um number 28 um was I really still would love to see some brainstorming on walking space um you know it maybe something that falls off but um I'd really like to see some exploration of that and this does not include any of the outdoor things right because um they had patios and they had it you know bot ball and all kinds of stuff right and how well the I mean I know in terms of the multi-purpose room I don't know but having potentially an exterior wall that is oh it was on West Main Street I think the thought that you could the exterior wall could open up and there and you would have additional seating out the back of the building for a large summer concert perhaps or or some such thing where you need to accommodate large numbers of people yeah Wilbraham had the big sliding panel doors where they have five of them or so they they slid and then they pivoted and went back to open up I mean it was still very much two separate rooms but it was not a doorway it became the span of from the edge of this window to the edge of that window for flowing out so yeah yeah um all right so I I think um just for the sake of everybody's time and attention we should probably I was hoping we would have t this has been a really great discussion I think we've really gone through kind of the fine too comb what we think here and we've delineated what what we think is important as a committee and the areas that we really want to um seek more substantial public input on um I think unless other people just really want to do do we want to defer discussion further discussion on the the sites to another night or I would but I don't know you all I think we deferred but let's just do a little summary again so we understand that we can fill it out on our own I guess right yeah so yes so definitely um the version in your packet tonight includes the follow-up information from Dan that you got via email um row number seven uh and I apologize I really wanted it to fit on one sheet but Catelyn sent it back as a PDF and I couldn't figure out how to do it is that this that's this one but it's a two pages oh light green I don't know if I page it should be second page has Dan's notes on should be stapled from the second P mine wasn't stapled and S okay okay maybe I didn't staple them all um did you want to offer well I I the second page Dan is taken it apart right and added four five and seven to the second page but they on the first page right right oh his notes on them okay but he was just I think he needed type room to type it in and whatnot no no right but I think he was also informing us that this is what he's found yeah this is what he you know that's definitive information for how you okay so what is the what does the committee think so there's there's this piece of paper and then there's also the one that is the summary this one right here um that is the description of that's the criteria so you would want to use these descriptions in order to rate each of the three properties on these 12 things so that so the your ratings go on the first page notes that Dan had for them are back here but that does I've got it does everyone feel like they have enough information that they could rate this and ask for and then have discussion at our next meeting or yeah I you know I I essentially did the for tonight okay and I have an asteris by 78 9 10 11 which says Needs expert evaluation and so um Dan has given us to seven uh but the topography you know I I don't feel like I have the expertise to really understand that Hy definitely not the hydrology um and the geology I um yeah just left toes blank I mean the views and orientation I guess you know I guess I could I can make comments on that but um zoning zoning is doesn't doesn't apply yeah not even on Brook Street no we can put this anywhere on these these three will all be working on okay yeah okay so we're supposed to work on this so well I was thinking we would talk about it tonight to get everybody on a common ground with which to with which to score it but we are getting quite late now so um if people feel fairly comfortable minus some questions why don't we plan for everyone to score this and then our next meeting will be largely the discussion of this now that we and then any followup for the the program does that I just have one question so when Dan came back with 4 five and seven MH were we led to believe that he was going to fill in 89 and 8 9 uh not to my knowledge hydrology and I get geology is the same as nine there two nines whatever I mean 9 9 10 11 I mean hydrology geology and there's no way we're going to know yeah no so I'm kind of figuring he's going to I thought he was going to do that that Mr Catlin indicated that Dan would help with that okay I'll follow up with um I'll follow up with Dan about we could all take a shot of topography because we kind of know what the shape of the things are you know if you want right I did take a shot at it but and we can't answer hazardous materials yeah you did that anyway there are no existing structures so is pretty much not to do that are the results of this going to Det determine which of the sites we actually do the feasibility study on so I think okay so I I think that's up for discussion so if we need to do so a survey will be needed on all three if we select them we could there are certain pieces we could do for all three of them or if in our preliminary ratings of them there is one that scores so much higher than the others then that might lead our decision to not do it for all three yeah well I was thinking one that was lower than all the others because he even said that that the Brook Street MH even I when I saw Brook Street with all the ledge and the neighbors and I was like this is not to me a viable location and he even said it didn't look like a very good site now are we going to go ahead and and do feasibility on it so my my instinct would be that if everyone goes through and scores it and it scores significantly lower because of the location of the expansion potential of the existing structures all those things around it then that would be the decision of the board to say do the committee to say do we want to drop that one off our list and focus on the other two and then you know do more work okay and for the for the purposes of the public and you know having I I think it's it's important for them to be aware or important for us to feel comfortable that is we I'm not sure if we can go to the public and say this is the best site I mean it it it it may well be kind of in an objective committee driven thought process that we feel like this is the best site but if we simply tell the town of air this is the best site for what we're trying to do we may get push back just because folks don't want want to be given some choices and how we navigate that I think is going to be critical to the success of that is these are the reasons why we feel this site is preferable to that site and we have looked at all the variables with this and consulted with the architect and this is how we have arrived at at this or or how or you know or not you know to what extent do we give the public two or three choices and say which do you prefer well how do we navigate that I think that part of the point of laying it out and going through the exercise of the program and scoring is so that the public can see that this was a very systematic process um hopefully there hopefully we'll have the opportunity to have public forums along the way so that there is discussion and people and I promise we will have public input so that you know people can offer their opinions and suggestions along the way but ultimately our job as a committee is to recommend we're the site selection and building committee so ultimately our end product is to deliver a recommendation to the select board okay and we're limited with what we can recommend at this point in time we've had no offers for a private land in two attempts we've looked at every piece of town own land that we can look at we're down to three pieces it could be down to one piece very soon and that still might not be the the piece so who knows but yeah I don't agree with your concept that we can go there with three or four choices and say hey what do you think of these three or four choices no I I I agree that that you know I mean it it is true that we somehow we need to gain the trust of the people that were we presenting this to and um but I think that we can do this through through all our work and demonstrations of of the work and you know and and the arguments that that we can put forth so I I and I I mean that's great I mean I think it is good that we make that explicit um so good so um because it was kind of all on the same agenda I don't think there's anything to table but um we'll save the the scoring for next time yeah no I I'm curious about um what it what you mean by select board update uh just that we probably need to provide some sort of interim update to the select board some sort of brief presentation this is what we've been up to we've narrowed it to three CU they really haven't heard anything from us since they appointed Us in October have so I would suggest that we go before the select board and say we looked at all the town-owned land we issued an RFP we narrowed it to three we hired an architect and now we're looking at that would be my just something very very brief mostly procedural but also the opportunity to uh Peak the interest of someone who might pieces of the people in the public that might listen to select board meetings that aren't listening to just more when's When's the next one June June 4th and June 2st of the two June meetings okay I'm you know I'm only thinking and maybe I maybe I'll just come to um announc that we're going to start the uh friends of the COA okay um so in terms of the meetings that he wanted to schedule at what point I mean there's one with the police chief the fire chief oh the Selectmen no but he doesn't mention the select you're following cat's suggest yeah so at what point was he thinking of involving or he's not of involving who the select one um I think that I think that's the this T sched was not presentation to selectman right so I think this is his official meetings not our work okay so I think we need to go to the select board yeah more than that so this is just where he's thinking His official based on his proposal I think that's a good idea may when we go to select board we should ask them like how often do you want us to report back to you toide us just kind of going well maybe they'll say well you know what don't come back to us until you're at this point or don't come back to us when you get to that point so then we know what when we have to meet them or what their expectation of us is right I agree that's so June 4th or the 20th you said 2 21 that's a Friday Su June 18th sorry okay um maybe the 18th maybe the 18th yeah does that see okay um do you want us all there I think we probably should pick one or two people to make the presentation but if we want more people from the building from our committee there just support I think that'd be great okay um well we'll meet before then we can talk more about the specifics of that but it's good to have a date um all right um long awaited public opinion public input any any thoughts you're breaking it down you know working together and everything I think it's great I'm so happy have the meeting here today good we're glad you came thank you for coming yeah thank you for com it's good it's great that you you came I know that she's you've been a trooper huh I know you've been a trooper coming to these things that's right I'm I'm really interested in it and the um as far as the um emergency room emergency for the senior center I'm 79 and I don't ever remember us having a problem in the town right born and raised here right and I don't think there ever been a problem so I just think that that you know could be a little bit far P towards right now that came out of um and that could very well like that could very well be that that came out of um the FEMA recommendations for capacity of the town and so um at that team meeting it was Littleton air and Shirley we each had a table at um the fire department we were going through these exercises and following the guidelines of you could need up I think the guideline was up to up to 20% of households or I think it was households could need shelter in a like a week-long snowstorm situation like right um so and then we kind of came together and realized that there was enough shelter capacity for air until we realized that Shirley was also counting on the same shelter space at the high school for so there really actually wasn't enough shelter right because it's regional so so I think it's an interesting conversation that that I I'm not qualified to speak to what the C team really thinks is a real world versus a tabletop Exercise capacity um but I'd be interested in following up and it may be something that like you said Ken's totally out of the scope of of our group so yeah and I you know I I would see that that for for a town that's not by the ocean and you know doesn't generally get hurricanes and tornadoes and stuff like that our biggest problem would be if we lost electricity MH for a long time in h hot weather until one of these trains carrying something hazardous de rails in the middle of the right I yeah I mean we'll see so my my thought on it and it's something I've talked about before but my thought on it is if we're going to have have an entire building generator and we're going to have a commercial kitchen and we're going to have at least one bathroom with a shower in it what other requirements are there and what if there's a half a million dollars worth of FEMA money for something we're putting in already yeah right so that was why I was thinking that's worth exploration um but but you wouldn't have the the stores on hand to feed anybody the freezer right so that's and that was an interesting part like I had didn't learn or know about any of that like I didn't know that the 1 has that stuff ready like it's ready to go you need 200 CS in two hours it's here like they'll set them up some right right that's what I'm saying so a lot of those things are mobilized in a really short period of time it's not like I have to keep a thousand hamburgers in the freezer just in case once in 10 years or whatever that there's a thing there's all these State resources the town actually has a lot of that stuff things I didn't know about so um sorry okay one another quick one and I know it's not going to go overall with anybody uhuh but I'm talking about to make money to help the senior center and help everybody in the town whether it be the schools or whether it be anywhere a swimming pool I'm wondering how much it cost the town right now for the swimming needs that they have to do they have to go to boxb or they have to go to wer we do have a swimming meat swimming people and a lot of exercise would be done in the water and you could rent it out to different things and how much money it would make for the senior center I know it's a horrible thing to think of but no I think it's a great idea I just it would be actually um I mean I I think as part in gaining public support for that idea and again it it expands somewhat the scope of what this committee's work was in terms of a senior center right um but the recreation department and the schools those two entities within the town would need to be the ones kind of driving that bus in my view that is to the extent that the schools and the recreation department felt that a pool is something that they would advocate for and were willing to you know try to fund and all the rest of it that might be achievable for the town I think that for the senior center purposes it will be difficult for us to say to the town we want a a pool for for the senior center well how much does it cost the town oh I know in you know a budget sure yeah that they're spending right now for the the swimming team sure yeah you know to get that Ino from the they go to box they go to Worcester they you know and it would be just not air other towns could do it as well and you make money on it yeah Katie and I have talked about it and I don't mean to and then I was against it and then I talk K and she gave me all kinds of different figures and things that that's when we were talking about community centers no we were talking about community centers at the time right no and that's I think that you know I I've have been a proponent of the community center for quite some time um the the charge of this committee is a standalone Senior Center I think if there was somehow a renew interest with the backing of schools and parks and wck for a bigger project then I think that's something that would have to swell on its own first and and then maybe come I I'm not you know what I'm saying like I I don't think that we can drive that bus no it's we've already looked at the land that we've got to use and there's no possible way that we could add a facility like that to the to the size of the property we're looking at yeah incept Brooks except on Bishop Bishop yeah but I mean I guess get rid of the practice field turn the practice field into but I guess there I mean that's a a decent question to ask are there any models of senior centers that incorporate on a smaller scale but that's not what we that's not what we talked about when we were talking about Community Center level things so I mean hota well I mean but I'm thinking like Physical Therapy oriented focused things yeah it's it's an interesting had a pool wouldn't we be able to put a walking Track around it yeah but again I I I think a pool gets us into Community enter territory I don't um so yeah yeah no no and I would encourage um I was visiting with Folks at the Pleasant Street apartments and unbidden from me three maybe four of them individually brought up that specific issue and um and what I would say is that in you know if not as part of this project as some as part of some future project that to the extent that the schools and the recreation department advocate for and push that as something that would be good for the because it clearly would be good for the seniors in terms of physical therapy Aquatics classes all the rest of it it's also in my view clearly beneficial to the town as a whole because the number one cause of accidental death for children between the ages of 1 and four is they drown um so so that's what so if if you want to see that I don't know that we can make it happen here but I'm not ruling out the possibility that the town could one day have it but that's what's going to drive itre Recreation that's could put a pool up on Pleasant stre where the garden is no more gardens um all right um in terms of our next meeting um I'm looking at the things we need to follow up on there were a lot of questions that we were going to take back to that I was going to bring back to Catelyn um we need Dan to provide some more information on a couple of the on eight and nine um on The Matrix and then everyone needs eight and nine until we actually pick a site because hydrology they got to dig holes to see what's there well I sent us that stuff in an email that was pretty interesting you know what he has the maps and whatnot but he did yeah I forwarded that on to the group um if let you overl the the past from the airport right you overl the the rest of the stuff is on when was this going when did it go out a couple of days ago maybe no no it was a day after our last meeting yeah a day after the meeting Thursday or Friday um let me know if you don't have it I can resend it to you so when do we want to meet again um um and then we'll also have the initial meeting with Dr Renda to report back on as well so when would we like to meet June uh the week of June [Applause] 10th is Catelyn expecting something from us formal before he proceeds with the the um analysis of the sites so this analysis of the sites the spreadsheet this is our work this is not his work this is our work so Dan will help us help form the hydrology and GE I mean those yeah I mean there's right right have no so he can't start on anything until we finish this right so I I think I think what he's looking for us to do is each of us individually to score these just like we did the individual scoring for the architectural firms then you can give send them back to me I can compile them and we can come up with a committee's aggregate score okay and then then we do have a decision to make is there one that we as a committee recommend dropping off okay you know um so what's our we want to proceed with right you know his his um meeting schedule was pretty aggressive you know to get to town meeting and um you know and the next on his schedule um meeting two is program and site selection and he's got what 10 um before October so I don't know I think we need to meet sooner rather than later yeah yeah okay well we need to meet prior to the 18th you know so that we can line up the presentation to the select board or at least kind of you know arrive at what that look like and this is what the 20 the 22nd next next week has so do we want to okay so we don't want to do next week it would be the what would be the following week the week of the third week of the thir we want to meet then okay that's that's fine with me is that okay 6 o00 on Wednesday the 5th oh that's my anniversary the eth we could go out where am I H what June okay yeah so I think Dave and Dan were limited to Wednesday nights for the foreseeable future just because of their coaching obligations okay um doesn't mean we can't have a meeting without them but I think we need Dan at the next one so do we June 5th what time is that a Wednesday yeah that's a Wednesday um and then I can check that with with Dan uh June 6 p.m. or something is a room avail um if it's not available we could meet at the senior center okay so we're looking at Wednesday the 5th no yes does that work for everybody okay all right can I get a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn all in favor y thank you