today is Wednesday April 10th 2024 and this is the meeting of the senior center site selection and building committee we have our opening statement this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this in-person meeting please note that while an option for remote attendance and or participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for in-person versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting ID 852 5823 2163 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly antonellis assistant Town manager at ATM a.m. us or 978 77282 to0 extension 100 prior to the meeting so welcome everyone and thanks for uh your patience with the weather last week and you know getting us rescheduled quickly so um I call the meeting to order order at 6:06 p.m. and um I the first item is the approval of the agenda uh I'd like to make a motion to revise the agenda um item number two approval of the minutes um we are missing one of those two sets of minutes and then um I'd like to add so we would take um both of those go off the February 29th and the 3:25 um the the minutes from February 29th are in your packet but I know no one's had time to review them yet so we will table those till the next meeting um what is in your packet that um I presume everyone won't need any time to review um are the minutes from April 1st April 2nd and April 3rd site visits so I would add that um in in their place if that if everyone is immutable to that so I think the motion would be to remove to revise item reg agenda item number two to remove um approval of the February 29th and March 25th meeting minutes and instead approve April 1st April 2nd and April 3rd minutes so oh and actually we also don't have a secretary so um I will I'm happy to do the minutes unless Ellen you want to do them other or anyone wants to do them around the table otherwise I can listen to the recording afterwards and I can take notes yeah awesome okay thanks Dan yeah um so okay so moved all right all right so I made the motion you second it all in favor hi I yeah I J says hi all right wonderful so um again for your review are the minut the minutes from February 29th in your packet um moving on to April 1st um the minutes note that um myself Carolyn and Dennis were present for the tour of um North Andover but as there was no Quorum we didn't call it so that's just the official notice of that um I think we can probably approve these all together in one motion sure um the second one you have is for Tuesday April 2nd that was to be a visit to the Fairbank Community Center in Sudbury that was cancelled um it was there was we weren't able to reschedule it as as a group um I think one or two members went on their own but we didn't um go as a group and then um the third set of minutes is the Wednesday April 3rd again the same situation that was a posted meeting to go visit the Wilbraham Senior Center and the minutes just note that the meeting was not called to order because there was not a quorum so um can I get a motion to approve the April 1st secondment okay second all in favor I I chair says hi all right wonderful all right um that brings us to the updates on due diligence for the town-owned sites and um Town manager apologized he could not be here um he sent me an email update um on those he says Town Council is still completing their analysis on the school property the good news is that the town clerk found some key information just yesterday so we are almost there with the pathway for the School site um for understanding what that pathway would be uh and then regarding the Bishop Road Site uh we still need a meeting with mass development regarding the location of the gate and the Triangular land um he hopes to have a date certain for this meeting um sometime this week so um those are um those are the updates on that any questions meaning starts at 6 starts at 6 the meeting well there's five of us here waiting for you yep exactly all right I'm sorry I'm on my way yep that's Dennis okay you'll be here in a minute awesome um okay so can I follow up on that so yes absolutely what happened is we've made several requests and we've got no responses from what a month ago something like that we as building committee like talking about the report on the the land that we asked the town manager to follow up on either through Town Council while getting a hold of right right but it sounds like the town way for us to do this so we don't have to keep waiting to get the same answer that says we'll meet another week and something else will happen and we'll make another call is there a way to get to the answer quicker that you're aware of um you know for Town Council it all funnels through the town manager's office for Bishop Road I've been cced on the the correspondence for emails between them and I know Meg delore has acknowledged and they're setting up communication to to work on the Bishop Road site so you know it's kind of the bureaucratic process too with deons for that one but um if I think of something I'll well the real question is really not he's asking them about the triangle piece between the cemetery and and in our land is that so that was just in a conversation with the town manager's office I did say I would like those to be they could both happen at the same meeting but they are really too separate issues and I wouldn't want the movement of the gate to get like drowned into or muddled into that triangular piece of land because um I think for the sake of our committee were talking about the actual DPW land we were saying we were not to do with that Tri that triangular piece I we were saying there were advantages to having it but I would like those two what advantage was that was that um I think there was just informal discussion that it would be advantageous to have that piece of land because I have no idea that there's any advantage to that land or any discussion that it just came just because it it um it muddles the water in my opinion yes that's what that's what I was that's what I was saying is that I would like those two pieces to stay separate I mean do you see what I'm saying there was never a discussion about there was never a discussion about the triangle being involved with anything a agreed that's what I'm saying is that last I heard about it it was a a meeting about the gate and the triangle and I said don't make it about the gate and the triangle make it about the gate and if you also talk about the triangle but the triangle is not required for the for our purposes so does that make am I no it makes no sense that the triangle was brought up at all that makes no sense at all okay we don't need the triangle it has nothing to do with the DMW DPW land or anything else no it doesn't have to do with that project I I think there was there were two parallel conversations going on that now I think became one conversation they don't need they they can they should stay parallel I'm agreeing with you Ken they they don't need to be cuz we only need the gate and the road ownership the the gate and the road ownership and maintenance right it's the yeah we need to clarify definitely the road ownership and I know that hasn't been done right and the gate cannot be moved so that's the huge that's a huge key and then then would come do we need the triangle there if we need room but I think they yeah like you're saying they're kind of in my opinion too they're not all one thing together could be they're two separate things okay we'll get back to that later but as far as I'm concerned the triang triangle opens an entirely different conversation with devans which we don't need to have how we would acquire land from devans how they would swap it to us all this other stuff which we don't ever want to go down that road as far as I'm concerned I agreed I think that they don't I think the triangle of land muddies it because ground big hole in the ground yeah as we were looking at the sites we were looking at whether or not there was enough within the fence right I think I recall that yeah yeah so you were trying to you thinking you might need it you might need part of it yeah okay yeah but until we start really delving into it right you know okay all right um any other follow-ups or questions discussion about that do we really if we only let me get this so we only really need to move the gate if we choose that site or are we going to go are we going through all this just to say it could be done right because don't really need to move the gate if we don't end up choosing that site so if the gate became such an issue that we couldn't move it that would pretty much be like all right well then that's one less site we're looking at if I understand right right so I think the idea is just like the due diligence on the School site is we have to know what the pathway is right so if if the gate can be moved and it's a matter of a memo of understanding or serving or the cost of it or whatever then then I think that would give us the green light to go ahead considering that site but if for example Mass development came back and I'm just speculating here so I don't know Mass development came back and said no you can't because of the security of the Airfield or something well then that would change the way we would proceed right so I think that's it's just trying to find if it's an option am I summarizing that these critical items if these aren't possible then that site pretty much gets eliminated right right y yeah not that we have to actually move it in order to move forward but if it's possible to move this I'm sorry um I don't quite see it that way just I'm looking at a bigger picture um I believe the town should have be entitled to use a road that's indicated as a Town Road so I believe the gate should be if you want to do a separate issue I think the town should get the gate moved no matter what to where it goes down to where mcferson Road starts and we establish that that in fact is Bishop Road and a Town Road that is established no I'm trying to I was asking you guys you know a couple months ago or something to try to establish that we we have Frontage on a road and it is a real Road and therefore they were not entitled potentially to close off our road so that's what I'm trying I'm trying to get the gate down the road no matter what so the potential of using the road for anything could be a gill my apologies and then that takes away the question of whether the gate is involved with the senior center or not it puts it in a different light where it belongs anyway right right but I think either way the appropriate communication has to be set up with mass de development to make that move in that direction yeah yeah so I think that's what unless we get the DPW to just you know go put another gate down the road just go if we just built a second gate and left the first gate open the problem is done if we own the road if we own the road we could uh our road right that's it's unclear we do own the road well we don't see that's I don't know for that's send them a bill saying hey you owe us this much money and rent for holding our road hostage anyway well they're going to have a meeting soon it sounds like hopefully um hopefully so yeah all right um so I think that brings us to item number four which is the vacant board seat as uh most of you know um Chris PR stepped down um we thanked him for the service um he had given he just had competing priorities um so that does leave us with um one open seat um the the opening has been posted it was emailed out to the townwide email if so if you on that group email list you would have received that last week um was also posted on the town's Facebook page and the town's website and then I shared it off of the town's Facebook page to the senior Center's Facebook page uh and then those that applied in the first goor round but um did get a seat we also sent a specific email um to them inviting them to reapply because I know um Janice Livingston had said you know as she was explaining who had gotten picked and not gotten picked that this would be a long duration committee and that there was always the possibility that a seat would come available at some future point so um so anyone watching from the public who um has any interest in that you have until Friday to submit um just a simple email uh letter of intent or of interest to the assistant Town manager's office which can be sent to um ATM a.m. us if anyone is interested so uh and if you know anybody talk it up and all right anything any discussion further discussion on that no no no man' all righty okay so site visits um and discussion of the architect and the vote to select the architect so since our last meeting some of the members have gone to see um a sample properties from The Architects that we interviewed um does anyone want to provide a summary of those or any thoughts about them um let's see I um went on a visit to wilam and then also to Sudbury and which was by the two different Architects one was by Catelyn and one uh was by um BH n um I was incredibly impressed by Wilbraham and I had already months ago seen um North North Handover which was very very similar but wilam was an improvement over any little tweak think I thought but it was so open and welcoming and there were people in all these areas and it was open and it just moved from one place to the next and there were open areas where there you know the cafe where people are kind of bustling around and then it went into the um uh it's not the library they have a library which is the quietest place then on the other side of the um uh fireplace they had like a living room area and there were people in there and I don't know it's just I just loved it and the stairs that go up which are lower and um you know all of his philosophy you know the glass the Open Glass that looks into the rooms are looked down and um the mechanical room was just phenomenal but um it it just was such a great place it was cozy but it was Modern um the um site in Sudbury I found to be more modern industrialized kind of cold it was basically a a long hallway you know that you went off to different rooms and stuff and there was a little cafe and behind that there was a little living room area like but um it was a day when we had the snowstorm so there weren't a lot of people there but that connects to the um swimming pool and the recreation department and then upstairs was the school department the entrance was kind of awful because they had to create a space for the schools upstairs so you walk in and it's this little vestibule with mailboxes and all kinds of stuff but um you know it had some Modern stuff they were having a lot lot of problems with their bathrooms which had these wave doors that didn't close so you're stand their individual bathroom so you're sitting there and you're waiting for the door to close and um the floors uh that they made were looked like they could be slick and they didn't have um the staff said they had to really fight to put um uh rugs on them and things like that so they were just things about about it you know when I was in waham I felt every little detail just seemed so nice and then when I was in um uh sbear I just felt there were there were mistakes and there were problems and things like that um not as well done they had to put up yellow paper on their glass wall because they were afraid of people walking into them and things like this but um I don't know that was just my opinion you liked um some of them so um I I also went to um we're going to go hand over into Sudbury I would agree that the the Sudbury building definitely had a utilitarian feel to it um I mean the fit and the Finish weren't quite what you'd want and the entrance I pretty much would agree with with all of that I I think that the the problem for the architect there was that it essentially felt to me like it was a senior center on the bottom floor of an office building and that the need to have the public school offices upstairs and then have the long Corridor leading to the so I I think that your sense of the building was very similar to what my sense of the building was um we were given a tour um an exceptionally nice woman just u a volunteer who took us around she didn't have a lot of specific information about how the design was arrived at and you know what the tradeoffs were um uh so I couldn't kind of get a sense of what the town had been asking for from the architect although clearly they made significant um compromises in terms of the room size you know the high ceilings um and it did have a kind of hotel lobby feel to it when you come in the door on the right um and in North Andover I thought that the the building there was a kind of certainly more a homey feel to it um interestingly as I think Katie had pointed out earlier the director at North Andover had significant reservations regarding the architect um just their engagement with and some of the design decisions they had made and interestingly she had um you know the yellow paper on the walls I mean she was she was not involved in any of the design decisions and was deeply perplexed by too much glass being distracting that uh there was too much to you know like are you saying that was in North Andover are you talking about cuz I didn't see that in North Andover I only saw it in Sudbury no in North Andover they had the glass on the second floor they had the glass between the walls yeah yeah they I think he's saying speaking of how you were talking about the paper on the wall I don't think North anderer actually had the papers on the wall but they didn't like the right they didn't like the fact that so much glass that there was so much glass that they needed it was too distracting for whoever was in which room and that they couldn't kind of get the privacy or the kind of the warmth that might be generated in a more enclosed space um and and you know to Katie's earlier point that her sense of the architect shall we say was that it was very difficult to deal with just button heads and not flexible enough regarding some design choices I know there was a big cont regarding the fireplace and should it be moved or not and you know why would it be better to leave it in the middle of the room versus put it on the outside wall um so and that kind of raises a red flag for me a little bit um but in terms of the feel of a standalone and and I think that one of the advantages that we now have um is that the design decisions for a standalone Senior Center will be much easier I think than for a multi-purpose you know intergenerational facility because we can now kind of focus more in the architect can be more focused like like in North Andover which might have been an impediment when uh when they were working in studbury yeah because one of the things was she didn't like the furniture but they wanted the same Furniture in Recreation and the school department and in the rec and in the senior Center and she was feeling that wasn't appropriate for the seniors but they wanted to buy all the same Furniture so that that was a big and um so following up on and then I know you did a lot of work with um getting the um recommendations yeah references the references and and I I I followed up with um in was it Randol with Linda Hayes and Randol I think and um and just because I wanted to get a better sense of of bargman Henry you know how are they to deal with um and and her experience with that whole process was um very you know she felt it had gone well and smoothly and no no I'm sorry it was Linda Hayes ins situate um and um so she kind of felt like working with them had been you know relatively easy she didn't kind of of feel like she was butting head much um in that they had made some last minute changes and you know that bman Henry had been um amenable to that and had worked with them in terms of moving things around near the near the end of the process um and that it had gone smoothly there so um in general I find that most of the people who gave references were very positive about the people they work with I mean that's why they pick them as references I think I think many people acknowledg that certain that Catelyn was a very strong in his opinions and and it was you know so you had to you know stand up for if you disagreed but they also said in many instances they felt that he was right and in the final decision but that he did give in a couple you know in many cases but um yeah I think they all seem to like the ones that they worked with do you first of all I do want to again thank Ellen for uh the references I I've double checked those again today um and it seemed like the references I think you'll hit the nail in the head most likely the references were from clients that were Equitable with the working with the architect so I I went I was lucky enough to be accompanied U by Ellen and Carol and McCreary to subury and with you guys to go out to wilam so I saw examples of you know from each architect and I would say that there's it's it's I think a pretty much an undeniable fact that the wilham project was a warmer project um the both projects I thought I was looking at it a little bit differently from some construction angles and whatnot and I thought both projects had positives but again not knowing EX exactly what the objectives were from each side of it it made it a little confusing but I wanted to say that the directives we met with especially the lady in wilham were just incredible this woman worked as you know 14 years it took him to build that place and the other one was like what 11 10 years something like that so it it seems to me that the whole process is a long process for all of us to undertake number one it's it's hard to say exactly um what the okay let me rephrase it what I want to say is that I learned a lot from both experiences okay but I think the thing that I learned the most was the time that it takes to to get the process done and the fact that you there were very little I thought in both instances there was very little concern for I want to say budget saving or cost savings and I think Ellen mentioned something to me which was was important and that is maybe we're paying for this expertise and we don't want to do cost savings but I can tell you right now in Sudbury they had a very unusual door and sidelight system they had 8ft doors all the hardware was way up high-end Hardware that they used on the doors and that was excessive and the sidelights were actually more industrial very similar to an office space that I would see you know when I was building office space but one of the comments we heard from subur was that they felt when you were inside those rooms that the the amount of glass between you and the corridor almost melt uncomfortable to the occupant of the room so the architect was thinking it would be an open feeling but when people occupied the room and used it they came back and said nah you know I'm not sure this almost feels like I'm in a fishbowl so I I think as a committee we're going to find I was very I'm glad that we went out to see things and we can see more because I think we're smart enough to figure out what may or may not fit right for the town of air so the experience of fitting it to the town of air I think is where we come in and that we're capable of doing that both Architects clearly have all the the the background the you know the recommendations the quality of work and whatnot um the floor coverings were are an issue we heard that from the applicants from Catlin when he was here and we saw a situation in so I can tell you when we stepped into the entrance of the building in wil they had right in front of the building Dan you appreciate this you know that was a basically a cleaning system for your shoes which is subset to the to the concrete plar with the concrete so that was something I would have liked to see no matter what so he used two of those he had one in the lobby just inside the door and one outside so that's going to get the dirt and yeah it's a it's a name to it I can't get it right now off the top of my head but it's a company that makes that that system whereas the other building in Sudbury you walked in and you were immediately on a tile floor which was definitely a mistake that they had to cover with carpet so that was an error somebody made a mistake right um I thought the whole I think the whole concept of restrooms which I did a little work on later and looked at on my own later about a couple of things was interesting it's almost as though the architect had you know we know we have to comply with Ada we have to do what we feel is best but we had a comment back on Mr Catlin sat here and said make sure you don't use the push button system use a wave system yet we heard from Sudbury people go down the corridor and the sensor picked up the wave of people and open the bathroom door so it's an interesting twist that in an attempt to to to get the best product we heard another thing that they had both of the buildings had all the temperature control systems you could imagine they they had all the liting control systems they have all the Energy Efficiency systems so we're going to get that no matter what cuz the code is high right now so we have a high energy code and especially in a a green community so we're automatically 20% above the energy code in Massachusetts so they all had all the electronics that you could name so much so that the director in wilan said gez I wish I had a switch on this wall because the timer comes on in the big room and we don't need the lights or something else was that was beyond the director's ability a simp switch on the wall to shut the room off and on at the beginning of the day and might have been better than an electronic Timing System so we will get into that we will get into whether we need how much of electronics in an energy management system or building HVAC system and things like that the thing that one thing that I did remember though was that subury seemed to only be about 10 or 11,000 square ft on the first floor yeah and the other one was the 15,000 range I believe um so the cbury rooms I mean it seemed like enough space to me for most activities that you have they it did not seem I mean the rooms seemed they were bigger yeah oh you much I mean you didn't get the warm fuzzies in Sudbury and I don't think it was designed to provide the warm fuzzies necessarily you know in terms of the the large room that the commercial kitchen was not was there certainly and they were going to be using it but it was my sense of it was and perhaps you could speak to this that it was not the kind of focal point that you perhaps Envision the commercial kitchen being in terms of the you know you go into a home and the kitchen is the place you want to be for them it was more and again inside B more like this is the high school cafeteria and there's the kitchen off to the side I think most commercial kitchens are that way and in fact you want to limit the number of people who are in your commercial kitchen from a cleaning and sanitation perspective so you're not looking at commercial kitchen with the island in the center with the teaching availability around the sides and that kind of thing I mean this is just it's we we are we aren't to that place in the conversation yet but I'm but I wouldn't prioritize that just because all the other commercial kitchens we've seen had Center racks that could be moved out of the way and you could put pop up some tables without having to okay or you could teach out of the window I that I'm not as concerned about uh okay but but that's I think a great example of something that either one of these Architects can customize the building in ways that we want whether it's you know but you're not going to have a home kitchen either way no are okay or an open kitchen you could you could have the commercial kitchen in the back for the Banquets and you only need a range and a small stove in the in the teaching area right only the teacher is going to be cooking so make a little mini kitchen like but in North End interestingly in North End over when when I asked so what was the square footage and how much did it cost her response was we don't know the woman in Sudbury didn't even know what the square footage was no but the reason she didn't know the the cost was because it was still being negotiated that is there at the end of the process they had run into conflict with the architect and I don't know where the conflict is between the town the architect and the construction company but there was a clear it seemed to me miscommunication there and and they were now you know negotiating that I think that that that conversation came up a little bit in wilam too but I kind of drilled her with she and I had a little question and answer session going when you guys were there and the other thing I think we want to keep in mind is that there's no way that we can know what the Committees in these various towns were made up of what the level of construction experience or expertise or billing or whatever it might be so we kind of have to keep that off to the side and and hope that we have enough help here to you know figure that out but I did want to comment on the commercial kitchen so I just remember Dave's a chef so he knows a lot about kitchens I didn't know that um so the commercial kitchens I thought were in in both places were over the top you could easily they could be in the 110 Grill easy they had every single so we need to look carefully at that you know we don't may not need the the full-blown you know hey change our seni you have to be careful of because that's going to be a lot of money there a trick Bal exhaust systems and all right but it's it's kind of what I've learned from the existing Senior Center is that it's a little bit All or Nothing so if you in order to have the permit for a commercial kitchen you have to have a triple sink or commercial dishwasher you have to have the correct ventilation and if you don't have and and I think the third one is 6 in off the floor you have to have enough square footage for for refrigeration you got to have the freezer you got to have and the hand washing sink to walk in one of them had a Walkin we don't need to walk in no but the but the difference is if you're missing any one of those things that you can't do anything so you can only hot hold or cold hold so it's um it's kind of All or Nothing so do you need a walk-in fridge or freezer of course not but are you going to have to put in that big Hood yeah yes so in the anel system and fire protection system whatever commercial stuff and this is an interesting time of transition for senior centers because those who have had commercial kitchens were using them very frequently up until Co and then those that haven't had them obviously were using just their ASAP their aging service access point there like we have mock as our provider for Meals on Wheels and congregate lunches preo um they were using the them and they were bringing food in in bulk and you could hot hold fulls siiz trays of mashed potatoes um but once Co hit almost all of the asaps went to um prep packaging in tre TV dinners and so um a lot of senior centers especially ones we looked at Wilbraham had just opened two weeks before we went and North andover's been open well they just opened in October but they so they've been open a couple of months when we went back um they're in the process of they're just getting congregate meals back and then I think are going to grow into their new commercial kitchens so um you know we have had that was one of my priorities two years ago when I started was getting a congregate meal program back up and running as quickly as possible so we've been doing our congregate meals a lot longer than another Senior Center than some of the other ones have been and then I'd love to see us transition into cooking meals right away when we when we get in I thought when to finish up my thoughts on that I thought the catlin's building represented pretty much exactly what Catlin told us at the meeting that it had the we we mind blogging mechanical systems and insulation which we could see when we went up above and stuff it's basically was a three-story building I think we talked about that it was built to look as a two stories building but it was a complete third floor with um he called it the steel deck concrete deck steel the whole thing was built as an attic but it was a full-blown third floor but a finished staircase all the way up to the third level um and the elevator of course we can even see in in the mechanic room which is pretty interesting we can see the I could see the top of the Elevator Shaft you it was boxed up in the mechanical room so everything was up there so you're you're really getting that building if that's what he said he was going to build then you're that's a good design there's nothing I don't think we got the full benefit of the architect's work in subury because it's a mix and match building right there's a daycare center there's a pool and I I don't know the whole concept but I would say that of the description that Catelyn gave us that that building match what he said so that'd be my final comment mhm just something that occurred to me though there was some comparisons that I saw in terms of like storage in the in the Catlin building there was storage everywhere it was big and wide and the shelving was wide whereas um in the other building in Sudbury it was thin and the shelves were thin and and they said for the uh uh cleaning people it wasn't big enough to fit the barrels or everything so they actually had a whole bunch of trash barrels in their hallway where they were keeping things and uh you know the ugly ones and there was sinks in almost every room in W Bram M and there was only one sink in the art room in um in Sudbury and there were just so many just I don't know uh it's so much nicer you know it was just like great but you know it was really nice had a lot of detail in for how much did they spend in and how much they SP 13 million in wilam right 13 in Wilbraham for 15,000 square ft and Sudbury was I think it's like well I looked it up high 30s right but it's a much bigger but it is a gym and the school off school offices and daycare and a senior center all together and they also renovated but the pool was not new the the pool was existing and they had the building was over here built the new building over here and then knock down and take out the old one so yeah but the pool got some Renovations but the pool was the thing that's an island that stayed in the middle yeah the thing that made wilham look I what I believe made it look nice real nice because they had tremendous piece of land it was a very beautiful right on a golf course right on a golf I mean it was a nice flat piece of land it didn't need you know it's just a nice setup I still felt like North and over even though it was not on As Nice a piece of land it was basically the out parcel of an apartment complex um also still a very nice looking building you would if you looked at the two of them side by side you know the same person built them them so um yeah so so if am I correct in saying that the consensus is that the committee would like a building that looks like a building that John Catlin designed is that a I think I would say it looks like a building with which has a New England look to it town of air you know not as industrial right I agree yeah yeah yeah and so how I mean for me I think how do we get past because I think I heard it two separate how do we get past the the Personality Clash or how does how do we kind of move forward with how we going to get along through this extended difficult convoluted process between the committee and the architect and and the town so that not only do we feel like we got a good building but that everybody feels like they were fairly treated and the the costs come out where they were anticip ated to come out and all the rest of it I mean how do we navigate that I just want to make one remark to remind us that we're not giving out the contract for the building right now we're giving out a limited contract so we're only limited contract so just to remind us again so with in all probability there's probably a 90% chance unless something really stupid happens that the same architect will move on to the building but we're in plus 20 5 something range now of Consulting us about building putting the building on the land finishing the U program um looking at some concept plans elevations so it's not a full design so there's safety in that is what I'm getting it right no no that's a good point I I was getting a little bit ahead there yeah but I think either one of them can do the the Consulting work but um you know I'm just I'll just let it go so I was pretty much impressed with BH and's presentation in their firm and what they've done but I would the more I thought of it and meeting with you know Ellen and Carolyn and whatnot and going to the sites I would have to agree that Catelyn um just seems to have an advantage in Senior Center work so and that I would try to answer Dennis's concern by saying that I feel comfortable with either one of them and I don't think that I think we can anticipate whatever we have to anticipate with Catelyn and we have enough professionals on this group to figure it out so if the general consensus was that Catelyn would be the choice of the group then I would go along with that we've only heard from three so far Dan and Dave do you want to add something two big votes here I think I I agree I I like Catlin I think he's a Salesman so we're going to have to keep an eye on him mhm but being BNA I'm sure either one of them can design the building bhna was more nuts and bolts No Nonsense military right you know ask him a question he answers it that's said he didn't go on and on Catlin to me was more of a a Salesman but I'm I like this from what I've heard I like what they're saying about the design of his products I think if we have to I'm sure we can re them and be like if when push comes to shove ours is the final Choice it's not him he works for us right and we just have to remind him that you work for us and that should take care of any of those problems yeah unfortunately I I was in Southwest Florida so I couldn't go to the sites um but um yes I know I did um no I think kind of going back to last time yeah and da and uh Dave did just say this BH and's approach is very nuts and bolts approach and Catlin brings a whole kind of you know yeah big you know thinking about it from further away perspective and longterm and like what's this going to look like um I although you know that could be a good approach in some ways a nutson bolts approach but um I did feel like I think what might be best for the committee might be somebody like Catelyn to sort of drive us and and put us in the right direction um and and like Ken said both firms they they can do the work um and one thing I know da Dave um isn't here the other Dave is he has worked with BH and I don't recall exactly I know they there was a negative uh um issue on the project so that kind of I wanted to hear some more about that as did I I think it would have been helpful for us to know the spe more in-depth specifics on on those specific concerns yeah did he give us any um Katie did he give you any background on that um he did I'm just unclear what he told me individually versus in a public forum um um because he did mention that BH and a was originally the architect for the project but at some point they felt they weren't able to do the work and they um then they hired um Abus to finish the project I think I remember him saying that the bhna wasn't really listening to them and they were just kind of going along a path and just kept going and so I I do remember him saying that um so I like been one with advocus um I and I think looking back I'm pretty sure catlyn although it wasn't by much did have the highest score from the the the reviews and kind of looking at pricing without looking at it close the hourly rates were very similar I think it doesn't you know there's nothing to go by there very similar um looking at it from a price perspective I do think that we're with now from people we've talked to even the ones who love him and love their work the woman in wilam said I wanted a wonderful Senior Center I got a wonderful Senior Center he can be a pain in the ass to deal with but you know because sometimes he wants to do it this way and you have to either stand up or whatever particularly in colors and Furnishings which isn't his big area but um I think if we know that those things are issues you know we can look at those uh apparently when they made the contract for 12 months and when it ran out because of covid some of the things they had to order took over 15 months so then the contract wasn't clear on how they were going to charge and in one case I think it was Wilbraham the head of their board wanted a Bachi court and they asked him to do a b court and he did a bot court but there wasn't a discussion of how much it was going to cost you to the B court so then they were outside of the 12 months and that's one of the things that they're haggling over so I think we have to be more careful about looking at okay if it takes longer than 12 months how are we going to you know charge or what's going to you know in terms of defining things right so we hopefully don't get into any of those situations but I don't think it I think there's going to be times when we're going to you know he's going to be you know just because he considers himself the Authority on it but I think he does wonderful work so so what's that what it's gotten I mean given that perspective what what I'm now thinking is that how do how do I as a Committee Member or the committee in its entirety navigate the design choices to build the best possible building for the citizens of air that it has the because from what I understand I didn't see wil Bram but I did see North Andover the fit the finish the quality of the woodwork you know you know to what extent are we kind of investing in that and what about the contractual piece and and how do we or how do you do you separate them how do you separate them because clearly I think and I hope frankly that Mr Catlin has nice taste I think you would you know the general consensus is has very nice taste and how he the look and feel and what he wants his buildings to do nice taste will frequently be more expensive than not so nice taste um and to what extent are we in are we in on that um and again I mean this will play out with any architect I think over time but it's just gotten me to thinking of of how do you kind of separate or do you try to separate all right this is a design choice this is a how much do we want to afford choice and in bringing those two things together because you know I think that um I mean not now to Ken's earlier point but you know 6 months from now we're going to be running into that I suspect you want to comment on that or so they can only speak you know from my own experience so one of the things that that came up that was pointed out to me was that when we hire an architect this is counter to the way I think but when we hire an architect we're paying for their expertise and their expertise has a value so they should be able to make the selections but in my experience in the Real Construction world and I don't know how this applies when you get into Union work or when you get into what's it chapter 149 prevailing wage work but typically when you put out a contract there TP there there is a provision that you can substitute if if it's an acceptable substitution mhm so for instance if the doetch specifies a door from they're going to specify everything cuz we're paying them to do that but if they specify a door manufacturer and you go to the door manufacturing companies and a can substitute for C and it's the same quality they can make it they should be able to substitute in the so you should be able to get the contractor is where that is going to fall back to not the architect the architect is going to be working with us if say that's an acceptable uh not an alternate but an acceptable substitution approved approved equal is the term um so we as a board are going to have to be doing a lot of that stuff when we get down to that level of it's the same with the copy you know they they may Rec say I only use Bentley that's all I ever used away you know there's 14 Carin manufacturers right some of them are recycled copies which is more environmental today some of them aren't you know whatever it is but we will have to make probably at least a hundred of those decisions along the way so we're going to be depending on you know our own thoughts and way to work the thing out sure and then you know the cat what Catelyn did in wilam was you know just high-end woodwork you know it was it was great you know beautiful all the wood trim everything was wood trim you know wood SE wood wood uh what's the term when the ceilings are all Bren cof cof all coffed ceilings you know for sound attenuation and whatnot not all that's what wasain department well it was very nice you know so we'll be making those kinds of decisions that's also for sound detonating but we may find out that you know you get you can get just as an example maybe you can get sound ding without putting the woodwork on it you know this things like that y so yep I think we can work with either one of them myself and it'll work out and uh and go with whatever anyone else wants I was just going to say I just I read this this week which is a I guess he teaches a 4-Hour class or something about how to build a senior center for what group is that for the Massachusetts council's on Aging so that's my state advocacy it's fascinating because it really does spell out his philosophy and then small things that he does to um the woman in wilham was talking about how they have the ledging around uh like a Wayne's coating almost but it's really um to use for direction finding so you can actually kind of hold on to that and walk around the room as opposed to have something like they do in um uh age homes um where they put big um things on the wall you talking about the handrail on the it was a handrail I said this is a handrail though it just looks like it's a decoration right but once I saw that I can do that I don't need him to tell me how to do that anymore I know just saying but would you have ever thought of it no but I got it now and here idea I once you see it you got it yeah so I think from from my perspective the things a lot to it a lot to it the things that the things that catlyn includes sort of standard for lack of a better word in his buildings that he has these best practices because he's just done so many in this space um I mean we are going to have to make lots and lots of choices about those things but I I like the idea that I don't have to figure that part out I can say whether I want it to be wood tone or white or whether I want it to be of this style or that style but that he's already done this so many times that a lot of those little details that really do make it senior friendly for me as the end user and to me it's nice to not have to figure those out or glean them as we go I think um one other thing that um was good about Catelyn is and it can be good it can be bad they're small firms so you're always going to get the people who are working under their project but if they're really busy that can be Troublesome but um um you know one one thing I'm kind of seems like everybody really like the Catland building so to me it seems like while we're looking at the feasibility of fitting buildings into places and eventually we might want a Catlin building having CN doing the feasibility type of work makes sense so the question is I guess are we are we ready to vote to select an architect um I don't given where we are with the due diligence on our two sites I'm not sure three sites if we I don't know that we're ready tomorrow to start billing that architect for looking at those sites so I guess what I'm saying is do we want to choose one do you want not not make the decision do you want to tie off the end loose end um no like go ahead I want to say that you could tell by my comments at the beginning of the meeting that I think this process is taking too long okay I think we have to take the steps to show that we're going to get something done so I would be happy to off for the architect we put out an RFP we got qualified result applicants for it we know what it's going to cost it's well within our budget mhm that we ought to do it and then I would have them work on the three piece they may think they have to look at 10 we don't know how many we didn't did we reveal how many they have to look at in the I think I think I don't think we I thought in the RFP it said to give us design plans for three sites okay yeah I could have thought did they I could be wrong but I thought I remember reading something about getting us standing somebody up yeah comfortable on I think we still have to negotiate a contract with him which would take some time well I can't take he's going to give us a AIA form with 100 with the value on it if's that'll be an easy contract as a as a point of order I guess um Carolyn had emailed me and said that her for the two members are not here they both had emailed me um Carolyn had just sent a short email that said her vote was for catlyn and then um Dave grub gave me the the ranking it was catlyn bhna Abacus I think Abacus was two his ranking his ranking clyn Abacus bhna correct his ranking so um if we're going to vote um do we include their votes do we as a point of I don't think we can I don't think we okay so we just V no official way of saying that they did that okay yeah I mean I appreciate the fact but yeah okay that's fine I just wanted as a a point of order to make sure we were all on the same page with that so I think if we're comfortable voting um we would do a roll call vote I guess for that or we just make a motion saying that we want to award Caitlyn the contract and vote that way well all right I make a motion that we appoint uh Caitlyn or we catlyn we offer them the contract okay second all in favor any further discussion further discussion nope a lot okay no so all in favor okay ter says I any opposed okay wonderful so um so catlyn will be the architect yeah Dan who wants it so yeah I was going to say so I can reach out to catlyn and work with him to set up a contract okay um separate from here okay and that type of contract is something the town manager can sign right and I don't think we necessarily need the Committees to look at it or anything we can you know set up with the hourly rates and it's going to be task or debates so I can do that outside here if you're comfortable sounds I like to look at it okay I'll look at it just as a get another set of eyes yeah you want to I just want to look at the contract and if you could just let us know when the effective date of the contract will be I mean you know with a month from now or 3 weeks you know like when is he on when is he officially on board okay I mean that would be helpful you'll pretty much do it pretty immediate so yeah we I'll work with them and we'll get that and then and I'll yeah I'll quue you in Ken okay just let me see a copy of it in case it's something that I think is weird whatever sure and then do we you had the original contact I see contract um dhna and advocus do you have a an email you send them do you want me to yeah I can reach out to them with the regret if yeah once we get the contct we notify the other three yet uh yeah yeah those three I do know y okay so I apologize for having obviously been late um in terms of the town the three sites is is there anything substantive about just in light of the most recent remarks so we still had those three town own sites which are all still in the running mhm and the RFP closes at the end of the week and then we'll have know whether or not yeah the private land RFP closes so um Robert had sent me an email just um an hour or so before the meeting um with apologies that he couldn't make it um and his update was Town Council is still completing their analysis on the school property the good news is that the town clerk found some key information just yesterday so we are almost there with the pathway for the School site so and again that was to determine what the pathway would be to piece out part a separate parcel from that whether what the process what the pathway would be um and then for the Bishop Road Site um he said we still need a meeting with mass development regarding the location of the gate and the Triangular land um I hope to have a certain date a date certain for this meeting next week and so um then the discussion that followed was that the triangular piece of land was a separate issue and did not concern this committee unless it was deemed that we might need a little bit of it and Dan had said it's possible we would need it but we weren't sure but that the most pressing and immediate piece was the the moving of the gate and so there was a little bit of discussion about the intermingling of that so um okay all right um well good this is great I feel like we're moving forward um any other discussion about the architect before we move on to public input all right so I think that brings us to public input all right go ahead Pauline good evening Katie thank you for recognizing me I just want to compliment all of you um you know I've followed this since you all this committee was formed you've done a great job I L listening to alen's comments about the sites she visited um and I have a couple of other thoughts which I think I better convey by email but have you all considered other than the other than projects done by The Architects you were considering local ones such as the one Ellen worked on in Broughton um and Harvard just recently opened a new Senior Center surely has a new COA but not a senior center to my knowledge and things that are a little more conducive to our area uh and I listened intently to everything you said about the three sites you you looked at I'm glad Ken is on on the selection architect selection committee will be reviewing potential contracts but I just would like to bring it more close to home in Paul in in what way do you mean I I've heard you say conducive and close to home can you tell me a little bit more what you mean by that well Andover Sudbury and wilam have far well in my view anyway far better economies than air has it's a different population uh different seniors different demographics I trying to be very benign with this but I I I just we go to wilam to see if a senior Senor Center there would fit in air whereas we have a senior center in Harvard and a senior center in Granton um and our own I just a suggestion if you don't want to do it it's sign by me we did actually drop by the um Harvard Senior Center on the way back from one of our visits and I've been to the Shirley Senior Center a couple of times um the main thing I would say it's different about that is um both Shirley and Harvard's are not new builds um whereas ours would be a new build but I think it's a good point and I think that's definitely something the committee is committed to is making sure that the building we build fits the architecture fits the character fits the personality of the town right and can I just say I think the issue is that we put out a call for architects who wanted to make proposals to do our this work and um there were six of them that applied and we interviewed three and then of those we picked two that we preferred and well then we went to go see examples of their work so that's why we ended up going to wilam or Sudbury or places like that um and I appreciate that Ellen and don't don't misunderstand my next comment but salesmen are really good at what they sell so I just leave it at that I'm not I think you all are doing do a fabulous job do not misunderstand I really do thank you but as as my my good friend I think and we'll say we have to analyze everything and be sure we're doing everything right so that's all I'm saying the other comment I would like to make is we have no no responses to the RFP they're look I think the D date is Friday Katie um nobody seems to want to sell their land to us so what do we do next I guess the answer to that is we are still looking at the school property which I'm happy to hear so I will just end with that and I'll see you next meeting thanks Pauling thank you any other public input I have input one all right oh was there another public input sorry no ba left oh oh mind I would like to us to immediate stop referring to it as the school property cuz it's not the school's property it's a school on Town land up there right right so that could automatically throw the whole discussion off if people think we're taking property from a school yeah right and that's that's an important clarification that it's the and I think that's where once that Town Council report is back it will hopefully clarify some of that and then we can move forward and make sure that we're instead of calling it the school property it's Town property Town parcel and whatever the parcel is and stop calling it right the high school par number whatever not the high school for sure so so so the site gron Harvard Road harad har so in terms of site selection I I was unaware that we RFP is coming up empty although I'm not surprised um well I don't I don't know that that's the case we'll have to wait until sorry no no the Friday it's due Friday so have it till Friday to submit something no answer yeah um that the the site selection it well we'll see but it seems like the site selection process is going to be or might be very much much narrower than we might have otherwise anticipated that is there might not be too many choices in terms of what the architect is going to have to decide between am I no no no I'm just kind of I had initially thought that the architect would be heavily involved in kind of the nuts and bolts of is this site better than that site is better than that site is better than that site it will be but I think but we don't have it doesn't appear like we necessarily have all that many sites that they're going to be able to choose between am I wrong in that or if we don't get any uh proposals from people people yeah does that mean we can't look at certain other properties in town and ask for them we can do anything we want yeah we can do anything the United States of America which makes it I mean just because they the first feasibility study we did we were looking at private properties got a whole shake down before we even reached out to them Hey would this work you know perhaps this could be for sale should we go should we go reach out to the owner doesn't if it if it would work you know something like that so I think that one of the most next steps is going to be the program so I shouldn't we do the program first before we decide how many square feet have to fit on the lot or I think that's certainly um of the St put out you know that's part of the yeah no so then we know it's 11,000 you know and then 11,000 will fit this way or it'll be a t-shape or it'll be a curve or it'll be a and with the caveat that what I heard universally in not only this go round but the previous site um process size yeah was that do not make it too small make sure you can grow into it um it was it was said repeatedly that you know I wish we had or I yes I wish it was bigger or I shouldn't have compromised on that room side or our fitness classes are over subscribed now and the fitness room is too small um u i mean I heard that in situ Lexington North Andover Andover um so just my thought process through this will be um you know bigger is going to be better than smaller I mean that being said I think that we can also look at population Trends sides of the town you know what's the what's the upper limit probable upper limit in the next 20 years of I mean and I'm I'm more than happy to kind of go down into those numbers so but my process is that don't be too small what are the population projections over the next 20 years let's say combined with KD saying I need x square fet for this kind of room that many square fet for that kind of room that many square fet for that kind of room etc etc and that's going to and that's something the architect will help with like when they go through um when I was reviewing the feasibility study from the first go around that predated me with Abacus there was there were conversations about which rooms do you need how many people do you have what is the industry standard for this many square feet per person for this type of a room and so you that they do have a formula that they use to add up to the total square footage that you need now we had talked about having another public meeting to talk about um what would go in the building cuz some things have changed of course when we did the last one there was no pickable Accords which is all the rage now to comment on that different things like that so um I presume that they said that they get involved because it's important to talk to the seniors and other people in the community not just to hear what they want but we have to get their support because we have to go to town meeting and they have to support it if we're going to get this passed and get the funding agreed so I think pretty soon after we have the architect we need to start planning a a public meeting that we would get some input um from the community MH so they feel a part of it agreed absolutely and and the architect will be a a big piece of that as well and helping us with that so do we feel that at this point in time we're going to um we engage Catelyn and that we are going to have him concentrate on the three town own pieces that we have right now to work with and see how they cuz he may throw one of those out right away right um I mean U whatever oh do we think yeah and I think we talked to we the program first yeah we probably should start with the program so we get the size and dimension stuff like that down right yeah cuz he won't be able to do the test without that and then at the same time we well we're going to get them in 2 days if we get in the private property mhm so you're comfortable with the program side of it that's your business so sure but I I mean I think what we'll as I Envision it playing out we would have prelim a preliminary meeting about the program with the architect getting my perspective the committee's perspective then you use that information to take to the public first public forum to ask them what they want right as well like getting input on what could be in the building these are the things we think should be in you know just like um you know in the previous iteration of it there were Post-it notes that went up on the wall like what are the most important things to you um and everybody got the opportunity to put up I think a couple of things and then that information was synthesized um and brought back to the committee to really begin talking then about building layout and all of that stuff so it's a it's a combination of both of those now the the design of the one that was made previously is a one floor isn't it and CN has has expressed his preferences for building two stores because he feels it's less expensive um to build to heat and everything else and the ones that we saw were twostory and they seem to work beautifully yeah I mean I definitely I mean and just all three Architects open my eyes on that particular point so because we don't need as much land that's the other thing so I think the the next layer underneath that is that they have all said if you're 10,000 ft or less put it on one floor if you're going more than 10,000 square feet and most of the new buildings being built are going more than more than 10,000 square feet then it is cheaper and makes a lot more sense to put it on two floors both from a cost perspective and from a land availability perspective I think that it would I mean I'm just thinking of the building in North Andover as well as well as the one we saw in Lexington um which wasn't done by those folks but it just seems to me that two stories looks nicer generally than a flat one story kind of look to it um you can make a single story look like two you know roof lines and stuff I didn't want I still want to I still want to visit Townsend if we if we at all consider a one-story floor plan cuz that's a great example of a larger building that's well situated and well designed on one floor how How big is it about you know now I would say it's about 15,000 square ft and then the library that's attached would be more square footage but yeah don't quote me on that but if I had to make a guess this is a related question but not exactly perfect so the thing that I found interesting about all the proposals were that the both Architects I'm just going to talk about the last two artics they both included and delineated although I'm not sh count delineated it but the other gentleman did delate the subc Consultants or subcontractors that they use in this phase of the work mhm and what surprised me was that they both want to control a civil engineer and I thought that was unusual um I'm just not used to doing that so catlyn insists on it or did so that could be our first argument he's looking forward to that I just I'm I'm curious about the fact that we have familiarity we have the town Engineers advice MH and if we get all the right information we we have knowledge of what lands we have knowledge of we have all the knowledge testing and so forth and so on should we consider not not really in this phase but when we get into the later phase controlling the civil engineering see typically the my experience is the that does the floor plan you know here's the floor plan it's going to sit like this you know it's a box and I need sidewalks I need this I need that and they draw we draw it up because we have experience with engineering I just don't know how everyone feels about that well well I mean my concern and again I don't know whether it's a concern or whether it further bolsters your point in terms of us controlling the civil engineer is that for I think it's critical important that the the building the in that the building fit well with the outside world that is the TR absolutely so that the the landscaping and the potential walking trails around and or or lack thereof you know depending that that all kind of work well and that the landscape architecture and the building be of a piece um and I don't know whether the architect would do that or the civil engineer or whether you is going to do it the question was does the civil engineer report to the architect or does he report to us do we hire yeah I think you know in this case it's a building project and the the primary is the architect I guess the primary consultant that would be one of their subc Consultants right so I think you know theyve probably worked with them in the past they work well with who does a good job and I don't know the scope of the work and how long it would you know last I know you know like you're saying we do do we we are civil engineers over at DPW so we we do this kind of stuff um and I'm also wondering you know we would be reviewing some of these you'd be reviewing probably has like site plan and that as well so we'd be like reviewing our work although I guess there's really planning board um usually we do it I would I would think it'd be better to have him stick with his no civil engineer he's he's usually works with and and then he has a contract under and can control um right yeah and then they probably worked with the landscape architect as well assuming they've done a few of these it all ties in so and you had mentioned pickle ball the thing was fascinating I thought was when we went out to look at these two things we heard before from everybody I think was gez you got to have a Walkin Court you got to have a place to walk inside the building and you got to have a pick of ball court yet they neither one had had those and interesting they in subury but it was run by the Pac and wreck and you signed up differently wasn't run by the senior center in North Andover I think they said that they no no North Handover she said that they could do one pickle ball in the big room right and then in Wilbraham the one comment she did make was cuz remember that their big multi-purpose room had one side that had Ved ceilings and one side that that didn't and she said she wished that they had kept the whole thing vaulted so that they could do pickle ball indoors but you're right neither one of those facilities had pickle ball Outdoors on the property and so I think that comes down to the piece of land we choose I I you know cuz pickle ball even invented when those went out the bid pickle Ball's only the last couple years so it's been around for 20 25 years popular recently right before I never heard of it until Rec so California they started some place but okay so um when do we want to meet again knowing that it will take some time for Dan to reach out and then to receive something back from Catelyn that we want to guess you want at the next meeting to be able to report that Town Council had and the town manager's office had had time to review it right and that we're good to go and then we're also going to have the um we're also going to have the on the 12th the rfps for private land that will be due so and hopefully we'll have an update on the land on uh Harvard gron Harvard Road and also um mcferson yeah mcferson y or Bishop Road because that'll make um whichever Bishop Road Bishop Road Bishop Road um so that will know what properties we are going to want a feasibility study on right yes so but there's another option too if if we just show them all three and he says this is the place I like the I like the feel of this place that makes our decision a little bit easier and how we should pursue getting that spot yes I mean because I mean to that point Can I with e you know do you know how to that that is if um this the the architecturally ideal spot or the best possible spot for the building in the architect's view this this would be great if you could have it I can tell you where it's going to be yeah then what is he uh what if the administrative problems for that I mean do we push against those and say we want it here in spite of the administrative issues or do we I think that depends on your interpretation see the administrative issues I see I just slow down issues rather than let's do it issues just see I'm sorry I think we have to just wait for the yeah either way we we won't finish the study we'll get the answer before we finish the study so we'll know we'll get the answer we'll get the answer about the land so are we looking at two weeks or what are we looking at yeah 2 weeks is probably reasonable or is that rushing it on your side Dan um what that's probably doable the 24th yeah so do that um but the affort will so we'd have to do 7:15 or 730 if we did the 24th right cuz the affordable housing trust there in this room right on about the 23rd that doesn't change much got to be careful What U apack too being available a little bit so I think we have to uh 10 cuz I Carly had said that this isn't the final calendar cuz some um boards don't get posted here until they submit their agenda so I think we could tentatively plan for um the 23rd or 24th does anyone have a preference between those two you probably have a preference for the 24th right cuz planning board's on the 23rd doesn't matter to me if it's in evening okay yes so I think we'd have to do seven we'd have to do probably either 4:30 or 7:30 on the 24th oh I had forgotten about that want to do 4:30 earlier grub has trouble getting 4 although is he going to be able to come if it's later could you do the the 25th at like five before concom could that that'll just eliminate Dave again oh you can't do Thursday oh I mean he I I think he can't do anything before 6 okay my understanding now thinking ahead you know we our meeting this is again hit of the hit of the game but we're going to be meeting in some cases when C's available right yes cuz you know yeah he's going to have commitments and he's going to have time travel and travel to get here and so forth so he may say you know I can only meet you at 4 in the afternoon right yeah right so there could be some things coming up can't anticipate it right well uh then May 1st the next week's wide open if we want to you know we're pushing another week I know we're trying to move we can't meet we we can't meet at the library we can't meet somewhere else we have to meet yeah see what his I mean my preference would be again 4:30 on the 23rd or 24th or 7:15 on either of those days um how often do those meetings actually run just an hour yeah in May first is open of course that'll be 3 weeks yeah um H Monday the 29th I I could also can we definitely do we definitely have to meet here that's why about that well if we have to record it doesn't it have to be zoomed yeah well that's what I'm wondering is if we can meet at a different location and use owl and then record it I could look into that as well the library yeah I don't know are people open to that do you want me to pursue that or we should try to find out have a reference to it yeah as this process moves on to K and we had discussed this somewhat at the senior center meeting um just a couple of days ago that to the extent that we can expand our technology access and kind of you know as opposed to being forced into this room within the narrow confines of all the other meetings being scheduled I think it's advantageous because there going to be a lot of meetings and they're going to be happening um and Katie had a interesting idea about how we might be able to accommodate the technology and expand places where we might be able to me it's just that I have a an owl lab system so it's like a little it's about the size of Dan's water bottle that you just stick in the middle of the table and it has a 360° camera so it functions automatically it moves automatically to the person who's talking so it would show um we would have two screens on the zoom one that is a 360 degree view and then one that shows each person as they're speaking um so but I don't know I'll I'll talk to Cindy and to Carly about that Barry did you yeah you realized there's also like conference room upstairs in the great hall there's a new conference room up oh yeah yeah we could do that too and is that that that one's all outfitted out already as well so yeah so I'm guess we could do we could meet upstairs as well yeah so thanks going buddy thanks Mary i' do that so all right so why don't we legit whatever time 6 o00 do the 24th at yeah 6:00 yeah is that time okay yeah 6:00 6:00 the 24th good eant standard or daylight savings all right then that one would be in the upstairs room okay and I will just um that one will require if since it's at the exact same time that will I'm working with Cindy about um having a second official Zoom account for the town that's the only way that works so since it's at the same time um good yep all right wonderful so um any other items before we adjourn oh got a hand up oh Pauline is your hand back up again it is just based on the um I don't know what just called it the availability uh seeing on Zoom I um I I don't know why but everything seems to be working fine on Zoom lately so it should just work when you wherever you are in town hall mhm I I I I'm sorry I only heard bits and pieces of my conversation so I I ran into the room to go back on uh on the iPad and contact you but it seems everything works fine from wherever you are Town Hall okay great thank you good good to know you're welcome thank you so much thank you all right then do I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn all right wonderful second all in favor I hey chair says I thank you everyone