all right there we are hi good evening everyone sorry we're a few minutes late today um we're going to call to order uh tonight's meeting of the township of Bernard earning border of adjustment uh the first item on the agenda is the flag salute so we'll invite you to stand if you can please flag United States of America in accordance with the requirement of the open public meeting law notice of this meeting of the board of adjustment of the township of Bernards was posted on the bulletin board in the reception hall of the municipal building colier Lane Basking Ridge New Jersey it was also mailed to the Bernardsville News whiy New Jersey The Courier News Bridgewater New Jersey and it was also filed with the Township Clerk all on January 8th of this year and was mailed electronically to all those people who had requested individual notice the following procedure has been adopted by the Bernards Township Zoning Board of adjustment there will be no new cases heard after 10 p.m tonight and no new testimony heard after 10:30 I'm pretty sure we're only hearing one case tonight um Miss keeper can you do a roll call for us certainly Miss Balman Miss Pichi and Miss poar are recused and Mr kre has indicated he is unable to attend this evening um chairman Jers here Mr Cambria here Mr Krauss here Mr hon here M Herrera here Mr Warner here Mr Quinn here Mr Sly here Mr Fishinger here and for the record Miss Keir is present Madam chair you have a COR you may proceed thank you Miss keer thank you um at this time I'd entertain a motion to excuse Mr Tan creedy who indicated he was unable to attend tonight move thank you second thank you um all in favor I opposed abstain thank you thank you um next is the approval of our minutes from our regular session meeting on June 5th 2024 they were circulated um so uh I'll take a motion to approve those as drafted or any edits or or comments on them Madam chair you and we have two are the only ones eligible for this okay motion to as drafted second M oh I'm sorry all in favor Iain all of eligible thank thank you thanks for that um and the second is 5B which was our special session meeting minutes from June 13 2024 and I think they were all so um circulated to everyone so if there's any questions or comments or a motion to approve as drafted please and Madam chair on this you are Mr Mr are eligible the teric I'll make a motion approve as accepted thank you Mr kuss second I'm eligible for this yes you I second it thank you all in favor I oppos abstain thank you um next on the agenda is the approval of a resolution um from Mar which was ZB I don't know which which case it was oh it does 24009 um I have one question actually on that one I apologize I didn't get this question to you earlier I just wanted to make sure that our language is sufficient enough when they agreed to 21% as opposed to a different number that it is specific to the additions for the purpose of the pool as opposed to um having 21% and putting up like a structure that would be a that we didn't we didn't consider I bless you they can't do that thought we had a condition could actually they'd have to come back okay thank you I I did also think maybe I'm wrong but my recollection was that we had that specified in the resolution as well but sometimes like if say ANC in the future and extra specific say appr for 21% if you decide to doat for 21.2% only for thepose adding that to your project the way I read it is when we talked about the 21% it said um removing of some impervious coverage to achieve 21% I just want to make sure that they couldn't Swit gears completely up a structure that maybe we would or wouldn't approve at 21% it has to be a remove perfect okay I feel better any other questions or comments or a motion to approve as drafted and Madam chair you and Miss Herrera are the two eligible members okay M I'll second that uh Miss Herrera yes yes chair Jers yes thank you thank you Mr Warner thank you thank you Mr okay next on the uh agenda is the public hearing which is continued uh from June 13th 2024 and many months before that for Signature acquisition ZB 22028 good evening Madam chair even members of the board and your professional staff Jeff larer on behalf of signature Acquisitions LLC um I don't really have much to say tonight because it's really not my night tonight um so this will be I believe if I'm not mistaken uh Miss Smith is going to be presenting her planner and I will have an opportunity to cross and then um I believe the board of education is here to read uh a letter and then they have their superintendent here and I may ask some questions U I don't know what the board uh has on its uh um mind after that but that's what I think is on uh the plate for tonight okay y we'll see we'll see what we get through here tonight um I think uh for efficiency purposes I was going to have the Board of Education go uh first if that's okay um and if that's I'm sorry M chair if that's okay also with Council for Fellowship Village is that okay yes that's fine then we' be going second tonight that's fine thank you just just a question um can I stay up here while that's happening or whe or do I do you want me to sit down I guess uh if there's only one person I guess we'll we'll give them the option of where they want to be I think you can say that now are you frankly I would I I would defer to councel for uh the Board of Ed and councel for Fellowship Village as they're uh uh uh directing their respective Witnesses whether there's room and how comfortable they are with that Arrangement hopefully there's if if not there's room for you elsewhere we'll find a seat for you all right I'm last thing I'm I'm a little bit um uptight tonight my daughter is expecting tomorrow so is her due date so uh if my phone rings and I have to leave you will you will know why fair enough good luck with that thank you best wishes um Miss steinley are you here want to come up you okay kicking us off tonight Marina steinley clar jacobe alfu and Jacobs on behalf of the Bernard's Township Board of Education um tonight we're just going to have some brief testimony um the board of education is not taking a position on the application so we're going a little bit of out out of order um but we prepared a letter I prepared a letter on behalf of the board of ed and submitted it on June 13th 2024 to the zoning board um outlining the board's position mainly that we understand as the questions were asked at the last meeting that expected passenger vehicle and tractor trailer trips to the property are not guaranteed and actual traffic counts may vary they might be greater they might be less um than what was anticipated by the applicants professionals but taking that into consider the Board of Ed requests that when reviewing the application that the zoning board consider the school district's enrollment Transportation methods and arrival and dismissal times and I have the superintendent here tonight to provide some testimony to support the letter and if I could Mark the letter as I'm not sure what exhibit you'd like it to be marked be with you we started a process that we uh uh well we started a process so uh it's uh o uh b e hopefully that'll work we or of it uh one one and if I understand correctly you might have a number two as well yes so I have copies I'm not sure if those were just distribute of the letter um and I I have I sent them to and I have extra if the public does the board does the board want an extra copy another I for the board maybe those could be for members of the public all right and I do have one exhibit that was not previously presented that I will pass obbe to Star Wars ob1 Kobi are there enough seats back there or yeah there's some chairs there if you want to just take some down thank you thank you and this map we're seeing for the first time right I haven't seen that yes it was prepared today yes and and if I may Madam chair for the record M St we have H enough for uh the other Council and maybe even one or more for members of the public for distribution great thank you and and I'm sorry our board professionals oh the letter so the maps will be ob2 and I'll have our superintendent SW and so he could testify as to the maps if you'll raise your right hand please do you swear to God or Refirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you and and uh superintendent whose name we're going to get momentarily uh is uh no doubt uh is testifying as a fact witness correct yes thank you you have to just speak into the microphone and if you please just State your names you know can can we have you both speaking to the microphones thank you Mr Le's going to use that microphone if that's okay thank you so did you just state your name and spell your last name for the record sure Nick markarian last name m k a r i a an all and your position with the Board of Ed superintendent all right so speaking to the first exhibit um in the letter there are statements regarding the enrollment um how based on what was provided in the letter and based on your knowledge um what is the as of May 1st 2024 what is the student enrollment in the in the school district 4768 all right and at the Mount Prospect school what is the approximate enrollment of students 545 at the time and of those Elementary School students how many students had a bus assignment uh about 84 and how many students were Walkers were dropped off at school right 461 all right and then outside of the Mount Prospect School how many students travel from the hills to across Mount Ary Road and to either the middle school or the high school so uh just by way of the letter at the time of the letter I wasn't looking at that um it occurred to me as I was thinking about this and that was the nature of the map um so if you look at the first page of the map that encompasses largely students that um would have been theoretically at one point in time students at Mount Prospect school but also some at Liberty Corner School um so those students that are headed to the middle school or the high school um from those parts of town that would be Mount Prospect students and some Liberty Corner students that's in the range looking forward to uh the next school year in September probably between 950 and a thousand kids okay in grades 6 to 12 going to William Adon or or Ridge So speaking to the maps this first page of the map right shows could you explain sure so yeah the first page of the map I I worked with our transportation coordinator um with respect to the borders of where the students are are um living relative to Mount Prospect school and uh Liberty Corner School where we are um where they are I guess west of Mount ay road so they would need to at least cross Mount ay Road in order to get to either the middle school if they're going to Anon grade 678 or if they're going to the high school 9 to 12 thinking that they're going to need to get to the East Side in order to get to their school so that's kind of what that blue represents is where those students are coming from and then same with so the second page would be kids on the other side of Mount Ary road that need to get to Liberty Corner School so those are going to be students mainly K5 uh really K5 students heading the other direction from the East side to the west side needing to get across mount a road to get to their school so just to to give the you know the committee uh a sense of the groups of students that have to navigate across the road that might be seeing that might be seeing this increased traffic okay great and the the maps were prepared under your supervision and by the transportation coordinator yeah using um busing software for the school district yes okay and then some more questions so speaking more about the transportation methods um and the arrival and dismissal times um could you explain to the board the arrival times for elementary middle and high school school right so um we we did adjust our start times a little bit but you know as as the letter describes the the volume of traffic is is generally 7:30 to 9:00 in the morning and and 2 to 3:30 in the afternoon um the the the elementary the excuse me the uh middle school is going to start uh 7:15 uh the high school at 8:20 and the um elementary schools at 9: so we did adjust those times a little bit but those windows of kind of high high volume are are really 7:30 to 9 probably 2 to 3:30 in the afternoon and not only and could you speak to the amount of the volume of bus traffic and sure that that is occurring during those times right so with the with the kids you know obviously some of the kids are are riding the bus some of the kids are coming to school by private vehicle walking uh and and some of the students are driving themselves so um you know we we Bus Around 2,000 students um on any given day whether they're going to actually ride the bus they're assigned to or get to school another way uh certainly can vary uh but in terms of um the overall volume of vehicles um our buses themselves for next year we're we're going to have about 33 34 buses on the road at any given time the goal is to Triple tier the buses so that uh the first wave of buses would go with the first school that opens the middle school probably 3334 vehicles on the road then those same Vehicles get used again uh to get the high school students to school and then a third time to get the elementary school Stu uh students to school so you have that bus volume will probably be around 334 33 to 34 buses running around uh all morning and all afternoon to get the the students to school um you never know how many parent vehicles uh are running around to do the same thing um we also have of course the concern that I think came up in the past was uh you know the number of student drivers um relative to this area of concern this particular uh conduit between 287 and 78 I was thinking about the kids that need to come across and that's why I took a look at that map and and shared that um for your consideration um you're you're looking at um seniors that would most likely drive to school and juniors as they get their license they would like to probably drive to school too um I just took a look at the the number of seniors um that was about it's an estimate for next year seniors coming from that side of town about 160 um and then coming from the hills and going coming from the hills side of of Mount Ary Road uh and needing you know about 160 160 right depending on how successful they are in getting their license and and all that stuff but but right uh about 160 and then you know with the Juniors event eventually they'll some of them will uh be driving to school it's hard to know exactly how that will play out but theoretically there's about about the same number of Juniors that might age up at some point and start driving to school um we can I just ask a question when you said 160 coming from that part of town can you be more specific so I understand where you're what area are you looking at to the to the west side of Mount Ary Road the connector between 287 and 78 I guess would be the way to think about it um so they they might have they might be largely from the Mount Prospect region but there's some Liberty Corner area there also so it's not strictly Mount Prospect students perfect thank you yep and then the um the second page was a little bit different because it was kids needing to get to school and crossing the road going the other direction from the I guess the east side to the west side and that was about 150 students most of those students live so close to Liberty Corner School that they're um not eligible for transportation unless they pay for it so a lot of those families would be driving their kids because they're less than two miles from Liberty Corner School um some of those students will sign up for subscription busing they would be on some of the Vehicles the the bus vehicles but uh again we're we're in the middle of finalizing all that so I can't say exactly how many are on subscription buses do you have any estimate at all um for how many uh either take the bus or are driven well overall we bus about 2,000 of the 47 4800 speciically though like how many cars are going so if they're close enough to not get the bus right how many kids are walking to Liberty Corner as opposed to sure dropped off do you have any estimate yeah um I could tell you that looked at the number of vehicles yeah um so Liberty Corner has one two three four five six seven eight eight Vehicles servicing um the Transportation uh figure roughly five 450 kids eight vehicles but some of those vehicles are going to be special needs vehicles and they're only going to have a few kids on them anywhere from maybe five to seven kids so one two one two three of those are special needs so five vehicles you might have 200 kids assigned to a bus assigned does it mean they're riding it every day right you know a lot of kids get assigned and don't ride of your Walkers are driven by their parents if they're Walkers most most are going to be driven by their parents unless they're paying for subscription busing that's an option they might there not trying to ask about the number of cars yeah yeah it's it's significant yep I mean if you go there in the afternoon you can see them lined up I have so you know yeah all right so I think unless you have anything else to add I don't have any more questions and we just ask that our both of our exhibits be accepted um by the board unless there are any objections any objection no objection from councel for the applicant and none from the objectors councils not surprisingly so uh the uh any um you're you're done with direct uh so we're up board any additional questions uh from the board at this time I go ahead cber thank you superintendent for coming sure giving us this context speak the mic yes thank I was just saying thanks for coming and giving us this context and I I hear that some of the numbers you don't know exactly um I want to just focus on the number that you you do I think know exactly and that's the 33 buses that are on the road three times a day yes how many of those 33 buses or how many of those bus routes of those 99 bus routes how many of those 99 bus routes are in this Ballo um so that's a good question um I I can't tell you for certain because I don't know how many of them are traversing back and forth across Mount Ary Road I could tell you how many are assigned to elementary schools and certainly those buses that are um in that Liberty Corner area for Liberty Corner School uh are largely going to be in that area uh Mount Prospect same thing the number of vehicles collecting students in that region and getting them to Ridge and Anon I'd have to do more leg work to give you an exact number on that thank you sure and you might have stated this already in the in a letter but your what is the impact that the tractor trailers on the road possibly one or many or we don't know exact how many are going to be on the road at any one time will impact busing you know getting to school getting you know people out of school turning on different things safety do you yeah I I mean I obviously I'm not a traffic expert right but I mean you know I I just know what I experience on the road like any other driver you know um when a light turns green how long does it take a tractor trailer to get through it compared to five or six cars you know what does that due to the volume of traffic and how quickly things move through you know um so can impact the time of arrival at school leaving school getting home from school yeah I just think the efficiency of getting through is is is you know the concern in in my mind when I think about the traffic in that in that artery uh between the two highways um you know we have a lot of Staff uh we have over 800 staff coming to the schools every day as well and a lot of them are coming in off of 287 or 78 so you know I I can't gauge it just from experience like any other driver so general safety of Walker you know kids walking riding their bikes sure traffic for parents buses for yeah I I mean I think when I when I think about student drivers as inexperienced and I think about tractor trailers and other other vehicles it's a you know it's a it's a certainly a concern and um you know we have uh roughly 400 parking spaces up at Ridge that kids are assigned to and those kids are all driving around town to get to school and so it's it's something that goes through my mind short and you typically don't see tractor trailers driving through any Aries within the the city very often from your opinion as a you know person that is around and bus traffic I'm sorry just to be clear apologize for the interruption but again uh uh the superintendent is testifying as a fact witness he could C have provide factual information when when the question becomes opinion we have to be careful to make sure we remember it's a fact witness testified thank you don't have to answer that question thank you but but we all have opinions so one more for me m uh superintendent do you have um has there been any concerns or instances with respect to buses being late given the current traffic uh situation on Mount Ary Road not currently not currently thank you one question on my side superintendent how often do you have delayed openings in the district uh rarely do we have delayed openings um a few a year depending on the weather on average two or three uh we do have some early dismissals uh we schedule uh four for inservice each year and uh at the end of the school year the last couple days are are early dismissal so roughly six leaving early uh and coming late depending on how the weather is treating us maybe somewhere between one and three a year and that's weather driven typically typically weather sometimes a power outage thank you sure any additional questions from the board okay is there any um one from the public who has a question for the superintendent yes we should do that sorry I'm just going to ask the council first if there's if there's any um questions from Council Miss Smith is any questions for um the superintendent sorry Mr questions I have questions but I thought I was an exper yes please go ahead um I'll I'll defer to Mr Warner to the chair as to order ofair Mr the chair is selecting you yes um sorry Mr L I should have gone to you first if if I could just ask Mr M Mr superintendent can can you just come over I can't take the microphone can can you point out on the page one what these two green the F there's one that says the hills and one that says Liberty corner right the school so Mount Prospect and so this is Mount Prospect we're going to have to get this on the record though maybe the stenographer is but I don't know if anybody else is privy to the conversation the two of you are having right now so the on the first page of the second exhibit the Green Dot above the word the hills what does that represent Mr marcarian Mount Prospect school and the Green Dot that is above Liberty Corner the words Liberty Corner what does that represent Liberty Corner school all right and on the second page the Green Dot to the left of Liberty Corner what does that represent the school Liberty Corner School and the second Green Dot above Pleasant Valley Park what does that represent I think it's I I'm honestly not sure it looks a little out of place I think the intent is Anon but it looks out of place what is that name the middle school middle school yeah can you um do me a favor on page one identify where Alan road is on the F on the first page it's toille so it's I think it's I think it's this road right here so the road that begins at the number 525 and travels to the West yes 525 okay yeah it's right about there going that way got um all right I just have a few questions if you might uh you can probably go back to where you were I'm sorry limited microphones um Mr superintendent were were you uh here when Mr seckler testified I believe it was five times that most if not all of the tractor trailers will not be coming from Allen Road and making a right onto the site into the site so I can tell you the only meeting I was here for was the one in June and so were you here when he talked about the revisions made to the plans um which included the no left turn on out of the site to to move toward the hills I could tell you I was here on June 14th we weren't we here in at the last meeting May 16 I apologize okay I think that was testimony was in April okay um thanks so so um you were you here for you were not here for that meeting the so uh if council's helping me remember correctly she and I attended only one meeting if it was the one in May then that's the only one I doubt I would have been here in June thinking about June June 14th with graduation that week so so it probably was May all right Mr super if I just for clarity then you were not here at the April meeting correct correct correct all right great uh Mr superintendent were you here when Mr seckler testified uh based upon the travel speeds as shown in his Google Map exhibits um that most if not all of the trucks and that included FedEx box trucks tractor trailers would be coming from the i78 eastbound i78 westbound i7 287 Northbound and I 287 southbound routes and would enter the property by making a left turn into the site from direction of liy Corner Road was that in May that was that was April 11th then no I wasn't here so you didn't hear that testimony nor did you read the I I I want to say I I think it might have come up also in May but I'm not sure but you didn't you didn't read no I wasn't here in April to hear that read the transcript either right I I did read some of the reports that have been posted so I don't know if they were the actual transcripts I do remember the conversation at least in print somewhere um superintendent were you here well I know you weren't here when Mr Seer testified that it would only be the what he called the errant truck that may travel easterly from Allen Road and make a right turn into the site I believe the superintendent already answered I'm sorry you can't have a conversation amongst Council I I'm not trying to be difficult honestly I I I remember being here for one meeting I sat in the back row and it it was it was really great um but I I I I don't I don't not use that I I I listen to I did listen at the meeting and I can honestly say I I remember conversations about you know the intent and and where the the traffic wasn't really designed to try to go like on Allen Road I kind of got the gist of that but I I can't I don't want to say that I was here for anything except for just for the May meeting that that's when was here if Marina's remembering correctly and so Mr superintendent you you also didn't read the transcript from April 11th when he said that I I don't believe I no I don't believe I read the actual transcript from April 11th and in in his testimony on April 11th um he said that 8% of of the in his distribution modeling or seven trucks per day of the 84 uh would be coming from the West to the east along Allen Road do you do you recall any of that uh not specifically no okay so if we break down 84 a day and that includes box trucks and tractor trailers and bedex trucks um and you break that down to 24 hours that comes to seven I did the math so if if if we really break it down it's it's if you break it down to an hour per hour it's less than onethird of a truck per hour coming from the West to the east based upon his modeling are you aware of that I I I I I'm not really aware of whether or not that math is is right okay just based based upon his testimony that's what he said 8% based do you have another question yes um are you aware also that Allen Road is a county road which allows all types of trucks including tractor trailers uh I believe that was stated at the meeting that I would that I attended if we follow the board of education's logic in your attorney's letter wouldn't it be a true statement that the township would need to restrict all of the businesses which use trucks on Allen Road to preclude such trucks from making a left turn on Allen Road during school arrival and departure times I don't know are you aware that the township zoned the eastern part of uh Allen Road for uses that can and do generate truck traffic I'm not aware of how they Zone that area now okay and that this site is zoned E2 to allow light manufacturing I don't know what their zoning uh of the different parts of town is are you aware that that signature is the only development that has agreed before this board uh to restrict the ability of tractor trailers to make a left turn out of its driveway onto Ellen Road I'm not aware of that but it sounds good uh isn't it a true statement that the request of the Board of Education to restrict tractor trailer traffic between school arrival and departure times is really not supported by any empirical or traffic data um I'm sorry can you repeat that question is is is your the the request of the board to limit the uh truck traffic to school arrivals and school departures is it based upon is the theory behind it based upon any traffic analysis oh you're asking okay got it so in looking at the report and having attended the last meeting I was looking at the volume of traffic coming up and down Mount Ary Road between 78 and 287 I wasn't looking so much at Allen Road I I you know obviously from Mount Ary road that little stretch of Allen Road to get to the proposed site I looked at that but from what I could see there was an intent to avoid a lot of traffic continuing on Allen West towards Mount Prospect school I was more concerned about the the traffic getting off of Mount Ary whether they were coming from the site or going to the site that was all question which is um is it logical and you're not a an expert but is it logical as superintendent of schools that a truck would find it more efficient and and um more efficient other than in a in a traffic incident or an accident on 78 or 287 do you think it a a truck driver would find it more efficient to take go through the hills go down Allen Road from E from the West to the east to get to this site would it be the most efficient path Mr I would have to object that we've already established that Mr Maran is a fact witness the superintendent for his opinion about traffic and the whims of a truck driver I'm not please please everyone please we're trying to get through this the best why we can so please let's respect the process respect the questions we've heard the objection I I I did not I understand the question adise I'm sorry I I think I qualified my question by saying I know you're not a traffic expert but just logically does it make sense my my advice to the board is to allow the leeway for the question to be answered as best as it can by this witness because this letter and the testimony does speak to traffic uh restrictions requests conditions and Analysis recognizing this is not an expert as the board does uh I think it's a fair question in light of the subject matter of the testimony that was provided sure so uh not being an expert and just trying to go along with the logical thinking of a truck driver I would think the truck driver would probably try to take the most efficient point the most efficient route to to meet his or her ends and if that means taking Allen Road maybe they're going to want to take Allen Road if it means taking Mount Ary Road they'll want to take Mount Ary Road and if trucks are going through Allen Road maybe there's a concern with a school being very close along Allen Road and the traffic uh on Mount Ary with the number of vehicles trying to get through traffic lights and progress to schools during busy school times that could be a concern and and you recognize that it's 2.2 miles from Mount Prospect school to to the sub site correct I I take you for your word on that I don't know I just want to read something from the April 11th colloquy that occurred between Miss steinley and and Mr Mr seckler because it goes to your request or the board of educations request sure if I might Mr my my question Mr leir is you're reading a portion of the transcript from April correct correct and is that in connection with the question for this witness well it it oppos to the question is it do you have a let me be more specific I wasn't clear my apology are you going to ask a question of this witness or you simply going to read that transcript portion I I I will just summarize the points that were made and ask a question if it's in the context of a question okay we'll await the question so in response to a question asked by your your attorney um the Mr seckler stated that the morning Peak uh for truck drivers would be 10 to 11 would that conflict with the hours the morning hours for the school April 11th or was this may April 11th you weren't there on April 11th were you miss steinley um it's actually no it's it's it's not it's oh you're right it's May 16th I'm sorry oh that's fine I just it's May 16 I'm so I'm so sorry no worries um so after 10 o'clock it wouldn't conflict with school traffic okay in general I mean you know except for that delayed opening scenario we kind of talked 10 a.m. correct 10 a.m. sorry 10: a.m. no 10: a.m. should not um be issue between 10 I think you said between 10 and 11 correct right I would not think that would be any conflict with school traffic no his words were those would be the most likely am G for trucks um in the pm he said um well also likely be either right before the evening peak hour or right after the evening peak hour which would be 3:45 to 4:45 which would be 345 to 445 or 545 to 645 does that conflict with the hours of operation of the schools so the dismissal for the elementary school would would be a bit of a concern we're dismissing at 3:30 for our four elementary schools so um hopefully Bell Rings 330 we get the buses rolling no later than 345 so there there would be a potential crossover there I have nothing further thank you thank you Mr la Miss Smith do you have any questions for the superintendent I do okay do you want to come up thank you sorry Mr Lair now was your exit you had the seat for a good good run there Mr superintendent my name is Jennifer philli Smith I represent Fellowship Village Inc which is the owner and operator of the fellowship village community good evening good evening I have just a few questions just for clarification so my understanding of your testimony is that in the morning bus starts at the bus Depo correct and then we'll drive to pick up middle school students first is that correct yes middle school students first and then it will drive from those middle school students homes and routes to the middle school is that correct yes and then the same bus leaves the middle school and drives out to pick up high school students yes and then drives to the high school correct yes and then leaves again and drives out to pick up Elementary School students and then drives those students to one of the elementary school is that correct from your lips to God's ears and then this repeats in the afternoon right that they would I suppose the buses leave the depot they go pick up the students at the middle school drive them to their homes then they would pick up the high school students drive them to their homes and then pick up the elementary students and drive them to their homes correct everything on time okay okay so at each of those moments you mentioned 33 buses those 33 buses are driving out and back out and back out and back in the morning and then repeating that in the afternoon correct yes I'm looking at the exhibit the map marked ob2 was it the intent of this exhibit when you had it prepared under your supervision was it the intent of this exhibit to establish that the truck routes coming to and from the site at at 150 Allen Road via Mount Ary Road or Allen Road would intersect with the bus routes that your District runs every day the intent was to show that there are many students um that need to cross over the road that I was most concerned about having read some of the content associated with this and having attended the one meeting so as far as the buses they're part of the mix for sure right they have to go back and forth they're going to be on Mount Ary road too but they're 33 34 Vehicles there's a lot of other vehicles and I was trying to make the point that if this artery between the highways becomes an issue and I don't know if it will or not because I'm not out there doing traffic counts right but there's a lot of vehicles from the board of EDS perspective we just wanted to make sure from an informational perspective that the Zoning Board of adjustment was aware that there are roughly a thousand kids heading to Anon and Ridge from the west side of that road that was the intent of the blue shading and that those students would cross over Mount Ary Road they they in some way they've got to get to the other side to get to their school and mount Road you selected that road because you believe that is a truck route that would be impacted by the construction of this project well I I would think logically a truck driver is probably going to need to use that road to get to the site are you concerned that the greater number of tractor trailers on the road will increase the negative impact on students traveling to and from schools I'm I'm concerned about that possibility and that more trucks May mean greater negative impact I'm concerned that that may happen that's all I have thank you thank you Miss Smith Mr Berlin do you have questions for the superintendent one question okay can you um go over to the mic please over here thank you Mr Krauss asked you about tractor trailers uh you're aware are you not that the testimony in this case is there will be 83 to 84 trucks um uh um no truck uh trip trips coming out of the premises the board of education is also concerned about uh the trucks besides the non-ra the tractor trailers isn't that correct yes no further questions thank you Mr Vin does anyone from the public have questions for the superintendent that haven't been addressed yet hang on one second Cindy we're still doing the process with the signatures right they are the signature sheet so you can ask your question first and then um uh sign uh the sheet and as a reminder to everyone I know you've heard us say this before but this is questions based upon the testimony that we've heard from the superintendent not a time for comments so questions only at this time please yes I understand thank you hello Mr Mar hi um I am a so thank you for all the data that so your your name and address please sure U my name is G can I ask you please to sit if if you don't speak directly into the microphone it's hard to hear and we have people who are watching it live so we really need you right into the microphone like we are you can have a seat it's yeah quite short that yeah sorry we just want to make sure that we can hear yeah hi um my name is g b and address is 27 Talmage Lane bask engine thank you um hello Mr Marian I I am a rich parent so thank you for all the data you presented um a short question uh when you mentioned the 33 trips uh the trips back from the school did they include the after school activities because there was a question on the I'm sorry uh we might not need the because I think he has the question and then you could ask followup questions so your question is can't school activity bus trips please people don't explain why you're asking a question that's testimony just ask the question thank you is that is that your question did he include the after school activities in his bus tally yeah okay yes and we'll let you ask another question if you have one okay okay no the 33 34 um buses at a time are the the standard what we call to from transportation to deliver a child to school for instruction and to take the child home at the end of the school day there was no additional calculation for uh athletic buses say or a field trip or something like that no oh okay so next question would be would your data be enriched if the buses for after school activities are added in those trips there are buses that I know for sure as a f okay hang on so and and actually it would be helpful if you have a sense of a number of buses for after school activities on any given day if you don't know that's fine but if you can give us a range I think that's your question yeah I and it it's also an issue of timing too we don't always have the luxury of having the bus there exactly when we want it uh so sometimes s those afternoon athletic buses might not leave the the school until a half an hour after we would ideally like them there so that can spread things out a little bit two or three um maybe on average when we're in the the midst of a sport season you know obviously there are lulls where we don't have you know between spring winter fall and I assume that's concentrated at the high school it's largely the high school yeah largely the high school okay yeah but but inir Ness to your point around other vehicle traffic there's a lot of other cars that are associated with after school activities sure that's true thank you very much thank you don't forget to sign the sheet please sign yeah okay you could ask your question first and then you can sign the page that would be great and again as a reminder right into the microphone because people are having trouble hearing uh good evening uh good evening superintendent my name is John Tomkins I live at 82 Independence Drive in Basking Ridge um my question is as far as the bus trips uh the routes that are concerned I just want to get your opinion on this um uh gentleman before said there were 33 uh there's 33 bosses each boss runs two uh or or three routes in the morning going out and then coming back so that's going to be 198 routes in the morning and 198 routes in the evening I just want to make sure I'm looking at that correctly so in effect there's 396 routes that these 33 buses run I'm counting going out is one picking up is two going out is three picking up is four or or dropping off going out is five dropping off is six so each each bus runs three routes in the morning or six routes in the morning and six routes in the afternoon which is a total of 396 routes not 30 3 isn't that correct isn't that correct can you write that down I I mean I I mean it in in in our in our world when we look at uh when we look at a route we look at um picking up the students at all of their various locations and and getting to the school right um then we sort of I think you're sort of counting um I think our transportation coordinator would call it the dead head time to um begin that next route right um so sure I I mean from my perspective I look at it as these 33 or 34 vehicles are on the road running all over the place be in the AM for two and a half hours and in the PM for two and a half hours I mean I'm saying I'm I'm saying do you not believe it's closer to 396 I I just wouldn't count it that way honestly okay I I understand what you're saying I I just from a practical perspective it's you know I think he answered that one thank you I'm sorry I just that's all right and um on the June meeting I'm just kidding um bu of comedians yes additional questions thank you would you please sign in he did I think he signed it thank you I can't see from here y he signed we're watching can you please state your name and address please for record Sher Nelson 195 Smoke Rise Road hi Mr Maran hello um I just wanted to get a clarification um when the applicant attorney was um really highlighting Mount Ary Road versus Allen Road I just wanted to get clarification that in your testimony when you spoke to the 160 high school students from Ridge from the Hills and probably a little bit of that Liberty Corner area getting across town MH were you intending to point out a concern for those drivers who will come past that site all the way to mount Ary Road on Allen Road was that so my my intent was to just highlight that they've got to get across somehow I don't know how many students would come past the site get down to the light there by the Tam key and then make a left I don't know how many Hill they wouldn't be going I mean sometimes I go Somerville right and then pass Liberty Corner so I don't know which routes the kids take but you weren't speaking about Mount Prospect school when you were highlighting That 160 kids you were talking about rich I was talking about those kids needing to to get over to the east side of of Mount Ary road yeah and then when one of the board members was asking you about delayed openings and you specified weather related are there other delate openings that happen at Ridge High School for things like testing um that would have students specifically seniors driving across town later in the morning yes and do you know about approximately how many days that is um where's Dr lasic when you need him uh it's I think it's honestly I'm not sure it it's probably let me ask it better are there weeks where there are four or five days in a row that kids are coming in late and there are multip weeks through the school year that that happens yeah there there's multiple times probably somewhere between five and 10 total that that happens just for the high school kids yeah and do the seniors at Ridge High School also um are they allowed to enroll in late arrival where they can drive an hour late if their study hall is the first block yes there coming in later there are nuances to when seniors would come and go for sure okay that's all thank you thank you other questions your name and address please sure uh spelling is Zha o last name do I need to spell my first name okay l i h UI 53 Sentinel Drive Basking Sentinel is that what you said Sentinel Drive yeah I have a very simple question um I live in the hills and when I commute in the morning or afternoon I saw the little kids many little kids crossing the road and go to or from uh the elementary school M prbc school do you have a rough estimate how many young kids many times accompanied by senior crossing the road so sorry I just want to focus in on your question question the question is how many little kids elementary school kid they cross Ellen row during school days each day I honestly don't know I I know your question I understand your question of kids walking across uh to get to the school Al I I don't have I don't have a sense of how many kids are doing that no I'm sorry okay all right that's my question thank you thank you other questions for the superintendent all the way in the back your name and address please sir my name is gan swamin nadan from 76 dochester can you spell that for us last name is Swami nadan s w a m i n a t as and Tom h a n first name g u h a and your address was 76 do Drive okay uh Mr Mar and my question was uh you talked about buses and trips uh do you know I mean if you take like Allen Road and mount Harry road to be our kind of the line that we want to see how many people cross these lines that are not coming by school bus like you know special education kids who come by cars or you know high school kids who drive across so they got to cross this our line of you know cont com in contest so Bic who cross across the so go to you know maybe come to Cedar Hills or come to the high school because I'm I'm a of sirop you asked them about the non-bus crossers yeah no no what I'm saying is you know it could be special education kids too Mr marody do you understand the question yes I understand the question yes um so that was the intent of the exhibit to to try to get a sense of how many students need to cross Mount Ary road to get to their school um so since Anon and ridge are the two schools that are on the other side of Mount Ary road that have students that need to get there right that was about 950 to a th000 students some of those students will drive some of those students will take the bus some of those students will come by private vehicle but the number of kids heading over an and ridge is going to be around 950 to a th000 kids um going the other direction was the second page and the other direction being the um section of Liberty Corner Zone that need to cross Mount Ary road to get to their school and that was about 150 kids when we looked at it thank you thank you to to your point about special needs students I didn't analyze the number of special needs students that might be going to a school that is not their home Elementary School and therefore they need to get to for example Mount Prospect so Mount Prospect does have the the preschool program for special needs the seabat programs that is another population of students I just didn't have time to break down the numbers of kids some of them would already be on the correct side of Mount Ary because they live in the hills and others might be coming from Cedar Hill area or Oak Street and you have the opposite that happens as well right some of our um students with special needs go to Oak Street school and they might live up in the hills yeah right I I I got your point yeah I just don't have a headcount there okay thank you thank you thanks and just a reminder you know I think um we're not trying to cut people off I appreciate that there may be a few of you who want to make a public comment there will be a time for that promise you you will have a time to make public comment this is just not that time good evening can you state your name and address please first sure I'm radan gurum morti 66 Liberty Ridge Road so questions for um our superintendent based upon his testimony that haven't already been addressed please right so in the cross examination by Mr Lara he mentioned about six or seven uh track traffic at the peak cover that's the number he gave you what if I told you that that average that's an average sorry is this a question based on his testimony okay if you can get right to the question sure that is so the question is this given that average if I told you that the standard deviation is actually uh more than the average itself right like the average is 3 per 100,000 squ ft which is 6 for 2,000 200,000 squ ft which is the size of this uh facility now the standard deviation for this is madam chair I have to object to the question because it's challenging testimony that was given by Mr seckler and I am just was regurgitating that Mr this gentleman is is really challenging those numbers so I'm not sure I'm challenging them based on facts yeah sir sir the they the do you have questions of the superintendent based on his testimony that's and he not sir he's not an expert he can't take hypothetical questions uh he can only testify as to facts and he can only answer questions based on his factual test I understand what Mr ler said is in line with what Mr Sackler said and it's in line with the statistics here the point I'm making is you can't make a point you have ask a question okay the question is this if I told you that the standard deviation for that number is larger than the average itself in other words if you were to like he mentioned an average traffic of about six per hour based on the standard deviation if you looked at the 95th percentile the traffic could be as high as 19 per hour right what is your feeling when I tell you that this is the range is a very large range over which that number could vary this is test yeah yeah this is an objection and and his feeling is not relevant he's here as a fact witness all our all our feelings are important even mine arguably but but but they're not important for this case so you really have to move to it hopefully an appropriate question for him to answer okay I think um I then defer this to my comments okay thank you I'm sure you will thank you your name and address for us please hi my name is Alisa Naru 37 Sentinel Drive asking Rich great thank you welcome back thank you um questions for the superintendent thank you and if you can be really close to that microphone please okay Mr McCaren I have a couple questions for you um do you happen to know H how many clubs and how many extracurricular activities how many sports uh what percentage maybe of your students play Sports and are in clubs is that um something that Ridge High School Prides itself in as well I yes the majority of students are involved in some type of extra co-curricular or Sport and how how many and there are many clubs how many sports how many clubs would you say there are maybe like I know it's a hard question but like because there's so many but if you had to guess maybe I suspect there's a lot there's there's there's a lot I I could go to the sport web page and count them but yeah there's a lot of them thank you to all of our parents that support them and I think there's already been testimony and answer to a question about extracurricular activities and bus and we heard it the board heard it and I'm trying to yes thank you you have another question yes I do um I want to know just repeat for me the grades that the new drivers are in are they both Juniors and seniors is that correct I looked at the Juniors and the seniors yes okay when you mentioned that testimony uh what ages are those drivers range possibly 17 18 okay do you think these new drivers will be driving themselves after school when they leave the sports and when they leave the activities when they leave the many clubs will these drivers be driving themselves possibly then sometimes or parents maybe might be picking them up perhaps MH um do children are they allowed to come in for extra help uh in all grades are they allowed to come in and have extra help at times that the school is not open um if they've worked something out to to work with a teacher sure how early might they even possibly come in well next year we're opening a little later so they might come if they come an hour early they might come at 7:20 if they make arrangements to come in early would it surprise you to know that I know children it's got to be a question sorry okay I've heard 6 am. but um do um do parents parents and others in the community attend some of these sports activities like for instance let's say a football game um how many people ma'am I think I think he understands the question yeah do you think that that's a large amount of people that might attend some of the activities yes we have a lot of support it's great excellent okay now what are the ages of the children at Mount Prospect School the elementary school and any Elementary School no well for the preschool program three uh three and four kindergarten usually age five so you know five 10 to 10 do you happen to know how many miles away kids have to live in order to be busted or are they considered Walkers right so you have to be more than two miles two or two or more miles away K8 to get Transportation automatically at the high school School 2 and 1/2 okay so they would be 2 and 1 half or 2 miles away um if they're considered a walker um Mount Prospect School is located on Allen Road is that correct uh handsome yeah Allen and handsome it's kind of on a corner where exactly is the playground in relation to Allen Road the playground for all the children do all the children play on the playground at some point during this school day every day typically and where's this playground exactly uh it's it's behind the school between handsome and the between Allen Road and the back of the school and like I said you know the school's on the corner so part of the Playfield would be on handsome uh and part of the Playfield would be backed up to Allen so I just heard you did I hear you correct to say part of the playground for the elementary school students aged three to possibly age 10 is located on Alan we heard it okay yes thank you don't have to repeat the answer and I just wanted to make sure I heard no we heard them yes thank you very much thank you so much okay other questions for the superintendent oh sorry you'll be next up okay thank you uh my name is chenan I'm living in the 56 Sentinel Drive living in the town more than like 24 years okay uh Mr superintendent uh you talk about the 33 the bus route right you you superintendent for the burners Township is that correct mhm uh so you have no idea about the adjacent Township the school bu going to use the mountain a road right I did not contemplate that now yeah I can tell you that all right do you know the H Mountain Ro run runs through the different township do you have any idea the Mountain Area Ro actually uh no the Allen actually runs through between the bminer yes that I do yes so you you can imagine that more more sorry sir sir sorry sir all right the questions you talk about the bus track bus route right is only counted regular one right do you think the other bus like for the special needed case bus also going to use that that route the the numbers that I gave included the special needs routes yes how about some like a private school like a ping I know that school bu probably also that road do you have I don't know I only looked at our district I think sir he he only looked at uh the Bernard public okay public yes thank you okay thank you thank you we did we did notice I see others we will get to everybody hi good evening good evening Dan your name address please Dan KH 118 Patriot Drive um let me just write my name and then I'll ask my questions and I'll be on my way okay um uh thank you superintendent uh few questions for you what is the and you mentioned there walkers for Mount aspect do you know the percentage of students of walkers from M Prospect we had estimated 545 uh students in May on May 1st of those about 84 students have a bus assignments and 461 students walk or are dropped off 460 Sor 4 461 can you give those numbers one more time sure uh about 545 elementary students uh at um Mount Prospect school as of May 1st yep and about 84 having a bus assignment and the balance 461 walking to school or being driven thank you off the vast majority okay um H how does a new schedule affect M Prospect in terms of start time I think right it so the start time is 9:00 okay yeah uh so so it's it's been delayed compared to this current uh I just said right 15 minutes later okay um does all the elementary elementary school have after care all the elementary schools have after care yes um does all the schools elementary middle high school um clubs and activities have the same end time no they would vary based on the school got it so then essentially in the afternoon there is school traffic essentially throughout the late afternoon right yes okay thank you very much thank you it's for with the new times next year what are the before and after care times going to be they're the same so s to six uh so in the more yes right so in the morning uh 7: a.m. for drop off and the latest pickup I believe is 6 yes 600 p.m. so that you have parents and children coming as early as 650 7 o' and leaving as late as 6 okay yes thank you your name and address please hi um hello everybody my my name is wiin Ja um and I'm a resident in 83 car Road in basing Ridge and I live in the Hills so uh Dear Mr superintendent I have a question do you have a like a stat like data about how many students in high school and Elementary School they have they need they had asthma or they need apip pen because uh when we uh you know register always the school nurse will send us may not underst explainy includ explaining why we're asking question okay also I don't believe his testimony encompassed medical positions for those at the school this is supposed to be uh limited to cross examination based on his direct t his testimony was respect to a and a map regarding travel transport walking as well students proximity okay I guess I will address uh ask the question next time that's fine and if you have a comment you want to make at the end when it's time for that that will be the time if you want to make some statements with respect to yes issues thank you so much thank you oh sorry yep she was very patient thank you yes you're not going to end without me your name an address please hi Nick um my name is pry sha I live at 41 Sentinel Drive um I have a question about the high schoolers so they what I heard was they would drive from one side of town to the other side of town so how old were they again that you said it earlier it was 17 typically 17 18 so accidents have there been accidents let's just say on the Ridge High School campus let's say in the last 10 years there have been accidents involving students in the last 10 years were they exactly on campus on the edge of Campus near the traffic light uh location I couldn't nail down high school this this area so these 17 18 year olds in this small little area of brige high school' I I'm getting there I'm getting to a question okay is I thought I was nice the the the my preemptive strike didn't work the the but what's important here is you follow the procedure okay question and and the question has to be based on his testimony and it can't be a question that uh uh explains a lot of different things be and and becomes testimony uh in the guise of a question so please ask him the question okay so approximately how many accidents were there in the Ridge High School area I I don't have a number for you fortunately very very few overall okay um were there emergency vehicles like that kind of accidents or Fender vendors objection this goes way be yeah I I agree I I agree because when you no there's no because the the the objection was substained we have to stay within a procedure or else it's unfair and it violates the Constitution there will be it there will be a time for comments I I assure you but right now is for questions based upon the superintendent's testimony that he gave well I wanted the accident but that's okay all right thank you did you sign um our sheet no okay please please sign your the sheet if you can thank you Helen Lawler 69 Dorchester and I and I apologize I'm sorry your name again Helen Lawler Helen Lawler Dorchester 6 doorchester um I I couldn't hear every all the questions so if I'm let me know um do are there 100% of the school age children in the township going to the public schools no do you have a sense of what the distribution would be no okay but it is fair question that um that from prek through High School the potentially could go outside the district within town or outside of town for schooling yes and does the the board provide any transportation through the school um school buses for that we do a and L transport it's it's we don't actually provide the transportation um we provide aid aid in Li of Transportation so it it's basically compensation to to help defay the cost of transporting someone to say St James for example but we don't actually provide that busing and that uh that Transportation could be a bus supplied by the private school or personal drivers yes okay that's it thank you did we get all the questions for our superintendent okay thank you Mrs wait oh sorry my apologies I do have one question for you um looking at um exhibit ob1 that's the letter dated June 13th uh the top of Page Three um I believe summarizes your request to the board to restrict tractor trailer traffic at Peak School times did you think about or consider any unintended consequences of that request and ultimately my question is where would those trucks go if they can't get into the site during those times and if you don't know feel free to say you don't know yeah I really don't know where they'd go that was it Madam chair is if we gave them what he he's asking for what's it going to do do you have an answer for that Mr um my opinion as a traffic engineer is those trucks would end up either on waiting on Allen Road for that restriction to lift or stage either on some other property or or some other local Street my concern is unintended consequences if they can't get into the site then they're somewhere else in town that they probably shouldn't be thank you I assume that was outside of your questions for the superintendent right okay thank you thank you so much appreciate that time please please please please this is not uh performance Phil um thank you um Miss Philip Smith I believe you have um a planner that you want to call I do thank you right so again for the record my name is Jennifer philli Smith and I do represent Fellowship Village Inc tonight we have one witness for you and that is Miss Donna holquest who is a professional planner our goal this evening is to provide you with expert testimony to assist in your consideration of this application I just have some V deer before we begin well we haven't even be uh thank you for letting us know were just accepted no no we didn't hear nobody has done done that yet no no I I intend to put to ask Miss hquest to put her qualifications on the record but I imagine you'd like to swear her in first I I would with the chair's permission yeah please do please raise your right hand do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do thank you and you're going to put her qualifications on and then if Mr Lair wishes to V thereafter he may correct absolutely so it is my intent once Miss Holquist puts her qualifications on the record to ask the board to recognize Miss Miss Holquist as a professional expert as an expert in the field of professional planning so to assist the board with that determination could you please summarize your education lure and experience in the field of professional planning sure uh in terms of my education I have an undergraduate ba degree from Rucker University in American studies with a certificate in urban planning I also hold a master of urban planning from New York University I've been employed as a Consulting planner uh since 1985 I've been licensed by the state of New Jersey since 1990 that's also the year that I was admitted into the American Institute of certified planners um I founded my own firm in 2018 I'm a member of uh New Jersey planning officials Board of planning advisers there's only a handful of planners serving in that capacity I'm also a member of uh The Institute of Transportation Engineers I spent about a quarter of my career doing doing traffic impact studies but I'm not a traffic expert here tonight just a professional planner um I have qualified as an expert before over 130 communities in New Jersey all the way down to Gloucester Township uh out to Sussex buror East Newark uh a handful of places in Bergen Morris Etc like I said over 130 communities I've also been qualified as an expert in Superior Court I'm representing the burrow of Emerson now in a federal court matter I'm sorry the bur of Emerson in a federal court matter I submitted a report I'm going to be deposed on that matter in August most likely I've testified in Bergen County super Superior Court Morris County Superior Court and also Tax Court on behalf of the burough of Woodcliff Lake in addition to doing applicant related work for such entities as PF Changs Floren deor Trader Joe's um and other smaller uh entities that you may not know the name of uh I have also done my share of opposition work I've successfully opposed Pacific outdoor advertising on a billboard application in Pary not too long ago and uh I have represented a property owners um most recently in Madison uh where we won concessions on a 100% affordable housing development that was going to negatively impact um their their property and the boards that you were in front of you haven't been in front of this board is that correct no and I actually have not uh testified in Summerset County believe it or not in all those years um and in all of those capacities did you um testify as a professional planner yes as an expert planner is your license in good standing today yes it is and uh I should just also mention I do some Public Work in addition to the Emerson matter that I mentioned I'm the burrow planner for the burough of Englishtown in Mammoth County I also do Consulting work and just finished a master plan for the burough of Riverdale in in Morris County Mr L just just one question um just one question uh do you consider yourself to have any qualifications uh uh in Wetlands delineations or Wetlands uh identification uh well interesting you should bring that up because on on my professional CV I uh I do note that I went through the uh the Wetland delineation program at Ruckers University do you do you possess a PWS no no and I don't testify as a wetland expert that was that was really what I look at as continuing education although it was quite grueling um to have a deeper understanding of wetland issues in my work for the board's edification of PWS is a professional Wetland scientist uh so you you are not testifying as a PWS correct no as a New Jersey PP thank you that's all thank you Mr La okay the board will accept you as a professional planner thank youer thank you miss homequest you were here for the hearing that took place on May 16th is that correct yes that's correct and have you had the opportunity to attend any of the other uh hearing dates for this application um yes and I've reviewed the transcripts and watch the videos um for many of the meetings probably more than 12 uh it's been going on for a couple of years now I think doing God's work yes yes don't you know I do so for those that you did not personally attend you had the opportunity to review the video or read the transcripts is that correct yes okay now I'm preparing for this evening did you have the opportunity to review the master plan for this municipality in in depth um the 2023 document as well as the 2010 and in preparing for this evening did you have the opportunity to review the relevant provisions of the local zoning code Land Development ordinance yes I have been all over it and I apologize for the interruption but I I was neglectful M Mr lir you did V dear uh you have no objection to miss Holquist being accepted as an expert in the field of professional planning only by the sport is that correct correct okay and uh Mr Belin you have no objection to I have no OB her being accepted as such thank you and Miss steinley has left but she had no position her client at least it didn't matter anyway but speaking informatively and as a member of the public and superintendent so thank you sorry for the interruption not a problem thank you have you had the opportunity to review the application materials including the application forms the plans the studies that were submitted by the applicant in this matter yes I have um as well as the um the board's expert reports Consultants reports yes and have you had the opportunity to visit the site at 150 Allen Road several times right now in reviewing all of those materials what have you learned that this is a sensitive area in terms of uh land use and and planning and land use objectives so I um I have prepared three exhibits that are going to accompany my testimony I have them on my screen but I don't know if we could ask for the screen to be lowered we submit these back in May uh we sent them again today but they are the same ones that we submitted back in May and maybe I will go ahead and just ask what we just for the record if I may clarify with you Miss Smith and and Madam chair the the what you was distributed to uh what was submitted um but is not uh being uh uh reviewed until this evening uh was also uh copied to Council of record if I recall correctly that's correct we copied all of record at at that time in back in May in May the May date and and again today just to make sure everyone had it fresh on their minds okay and did uh did that include Miss steinley on behalf of the board of bet I'm just curious I don't recall okay that makes two of us okay all right so I believe that we had been marking ours maybe o f oh I'm sorry I was I was looking to see if it was there um did we start yes we did start already with the exhibits of uhill have you had we had a letter that we submitted back on the very first date I think it was February or March that was Mar exhibit one well that's when we're still doing 01 and 02 was2 that was 02 the um what the what the heck we started it uh this is oh we're going to end up with two ofvs aren't we uh this is the stuff I didn't go to law school for this is o one all right so we will mark this first one as o1 and Miss Holquist I know you were about to tell us what this is and get into the testimony but could you first identify what we're marking as of1 of course um the exhibit the exhibit is entitled land use it's preferred by my firm um the date is April 7th 2024 and um I'll set up by explaining the base map aerial image that we used our source is are we marking these as one I have them submitted as three separate PDFs so I think we should Mark them separately so we'll just start with this one as of1 one page correct all right our sure our source for the base map is um a company called near map we subscribe to that it's an Australian company um they have the most recent aerial imagery that I'm aware of and I just want to make sure what we're looking at is exactly the same as on the screen because it looks like it's just a blown up I think you may be looking at a different one so there's I just want to make sure I'm looking at the right one and it sounds like I'm not uh there's one it land use and if I have hard copies here that I printed do you have extra I do it looks like it's just cut off yeah it got cut off same but it's cut off is this the same okay okay but it's the same we're just looking at a zoomed copy okay it looks like your print out was zoomed in that's okay I just want to make sure it's exactly the same sure all right Miss homequest I'm sorry uh yeah so uh the base map that we used is from March 3rd 2024 and uh you can see uh Allen Road pretty much in the center of the mapping we colorcoded the existing land juices we looked at a combination of mod 4 data uh the township has excellent uh property tax records on their website so we relied on that we also examined um by driving by the sites going um to verify what the land uses uh are being depicted on this map I think this is significant because I did not see this presented by the applicant okay and as a planner I try to be extremely thorough and I think it's important for this board and whatever public is interested to understand um the Allen Road Corridor uh to me this is the study area for the impacts of this proposed F variant and also what I'll set forth as a D1 variance for a proposed roadway serving this traversing the adjoining R1 zoned property uh but when obviously I'm representing Fellowship Village that is my client um and when I went out there to look at this based on my 40 years of experience I said no to me the study area is everything fronting on Allen Road because we really only have two major intersections at either end um Somerville Road and Martinsville Road and so that is why I delineated the study area as as shown here um Fellowship Village is is all the way to the north shown in yellow um that property is the largest property in this study area it's over 70 Acres um there's somewhere between two and 300 residents that that reside there currently and then uh you can see uh on the opposite side the land use pattern is a little more mixed there's the hotel um there is um what we delineated as a small light manufacturing use it's a very small building maybe 15,000 square fet or thereabouts uh when I went out there to look at it tonight there's only one one loading dock on this uh building so it is in no way comparable to what is being proposed on the applicant's site um continuing west of of the hotel there's a lot of public open space there's pins and Farm uh on the Northerly side which is about 38 acres uh there's Municipal open space shown on the southern side of Allen Road that's about 9 Acres then as we move Westward on the southern side we have other office development on multiple Parcels that was uh subdivided in the 1980s I reviewed those resolutions and then on opposite the subject site uh shown as private Recreation it's about 35 Acres owned by a private group and then moving Westward to the towards the intersection of Somerville road we have on the North side the Suns of Liberty Township Recreation Area open space area that has um at least a trail delineated on a map that I researched and that's about 23 acres and then opposite that is a farm qualified property uh which is quite large at 58 Acres um we left the portion of the site we delineated the site as the two lots lot three where the two buildings are proposed and then lot two is adjoining that to the West we chose to leave that with no color because in the tax records uh it shows um a transmission right of way and no other development on the site so if you're wondering why that has no color coding that that was the decision that was made also so that the board could more clearly see um that that property because it is a proposed for the Ingress ESS to this site the most acute information that this Board needs to be conscious of um as you listen to My Testimony it took until the May meeting for uh cross-examination to elicit the quantification of one of the impacts of this F variance um you'll recall that the applicant's traffic engineer was questioned by Miss Smith and he testified that the excessive F translates into 5918 Square ft that is the D4 variance that is being requested uh before you by the applicant H I'm sorry I was just I couldn't hear you what that was over going on over there you said the number something was going on over there what was the what was your number 6, 6,914 is what that was what the applicants traffic engineer I'm sorry if if there's someone having a conversation in the back we we really need to not have that conversation we can't hear our witness so please if you need to speak if we can just ask you to step outside thank you 6,914 truck trips annually was the applicants Traffic Engineers response to Miss Smith's cross-examination of how many truck trips annually is attributable to that excessive F of are the impacts of this F like that's what I need to evaluate right as a professional planner so that's how that came about the other thing uh I think you should take note of in in looking at the exhibit and you're all aware of it is the curvature of of Allen Road uh the Topography is a little lower to the east a little higher to the West that's the vertical curvature but there's also varant in horizontal curvature on this roadway and there is varying speed limits because of that posted um so those are also characteristics that I think play into um your evaluation of the variants that is being requested I have an exhibit later I'll discuss more the environmental constraints because your master plans do talk about preserving the environment the integrity of the environment and compatibility of uses while preserving environmental constraints so we'll get into that a little bit later um just highlighting the proposed development for you um the building that has since been demolished so we're starting with an oversized site which is vacant except for Rubble right now blank slate and this applicant is asking for very significant variances the prior office building that existed on this site had a conforming flary ratio we have not heard user specific details on this project um so to me that means it's a SPEC Building um as I told you I represent boards I serve as the municipal planner so I review plans that are submitted uh both for completeness and and also for substantive reviews so I'm 40 years I've been looking at site plans some of them big or bigger than this right and it was quite odd to me that the floor plan that was submitted it labeles light manufacturing and then office slash light manufacturing I didn't understand why those two were combined but that's how it was presented to the board I also noticed that the floor plan for the very large light manufacturing component does not show any details there's no specific distribution of uses there's no uh restroom facilities like that kind of thing uh and most importantly I I don't think the loading docks were shown how they Connect into this the interior of the building like why are they positioned where they are those are all things I would expect to see if I was the municipal planner reviewing a plan for uh Community the F variance of combined total of the office LM for both buildings is 5955 sorry 5,551 can you repeat that the total combined floor area for what is denoted on both buildings as office LM the total combined for both buildings is 5955 and that is almost the equivalent of the F overage of 59,90 years of sitting through hearings I would have expected user specific information we need this square footage because of of our business or our our methods or our processes and here's how it lays out and this this is the spacing we need between uh these segments of our business we didn't have any of that okay so 40 years of experience is telling me this is unusual and I'm presenting my opinion to you that this is a little outof the ordinary in my opinion um in terms of Fellowship Village I think the board should be aware that this is the largest property on the Allen Road study Area Fellowship Villages is over 70 Acres uh the nearest residential units are only about 100 feet from Allen Road right of way uh they are concentrated on what's called Zion court that is the name of the Interior court that these units uh are accessed by and it is their address when you pull into the property only 100 ft from the RightWay which I think is very close considering the amount of annual truck trips that are attributable to the F an additional 6,914 truck trips attributable to this F overage will be going within 100 F feet of uh the closest residents of Fellowship Village uh I'm going to shift now to my second exhibit if I can let see the second one we'll go ahead and Mark is O F2 and I'll have Miss Holquist identify what that is for the record okay this is entitled zoning prepared by my firm with a date of April 7th 20124 it's the same base map um that we used do you have additional copies of this only because ours just cut off little bit I do thank you so having having looked at the L sorry okay go ahead having looked at the land uses uh on the preceding exhibit bit and seeing how much open space there is in the Allen Road Corridor I started to delve into the zoning of this study area uh along Allen Road and that's what you see in front of you also colorcoded uh according to residential zones um the E2 which of course encompasses part of this site the western part of the site is in the R1 and then of course the public use properties open space there's a couple of different shades of Orange Is that are we to ignore that on the sheet is orange just orange uh is that R2 is that corresponding when you say yeah okay yeah I just see a couple yeah we have like a magenta color for the E2 I see the different colors just within orange but I'm ignoring that that's a printer thing right okay I suppose so I apologize that's okay part two uh okay so we start started looking at the zoning and and how is this Corridor this study area uh zoned and what it what is the significance of these zones so when we looked at our entire study area which is outlined in green it comes out to a total of about 367 Acres if we combine everything that's within the green outline then we start looking at well how much of this is residential Zone how much of this is public so we looked at R1 R2 P1 E2 and we broke that up into acreage and lo and behold the R1 and the R2 zoned areas uh they exceed 221 Acres or about 60% of the study area which in my opinion is extremely significant the open space um P1 contributes another 9% of this total mass of land area uh so if we're looking at a residential plus the open space that's shown in front of you that's 70% of the Allen Road Corridor is zoned residential or uh P1 for public open space um when I listen to the applicants uh testimony especially the applicant planner I was not left with the impression that there is so much resident IAL and open space zoning in this are in fact I don't think I heard any discussion of this Corridor of uh the delineation of a study area everything was very limited to the site the site and then the traffic engineer talked about only the peak hour impacts at specified intersections that that they studied that was it there was no quantification of traffic impacts of that additional annual truck triff truck traffic that's 6914 not none uh the applicants traffic engineer was also asked by Miss Smith about a q analysis because it would seem to be prudent to have an understanding of what is the queuing going to be at the intersections the testimony was that the truck drivers will avoid the peak hours uh there was testimony that the preferred travel time for the trucks I think would be about 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. because they don't want to sit in traffic but there wasn't any analysis of that for this board the reason why that's significant is because of where the fellowship Village driveway is and where those residents of Fellowship Village reside that I told you is only about 100 ft from the right way an additional 6,914 annual truck trips I'm sure will be noticed and felt by them there will be impacts to them even if it's only vibration and noise forget about the whole traffic analysis that I'm not qualified to do but the applicant had a traffic engineer and I didn't really hear anything about it also of interest to me when I looked at the zoning of course light manufacturing is permitted in the E2 however some of the other uh uses that are permitted in the E2 are Farm Agricultural and Horticultural and also public parks so uh this is not simply a light manufacturing office Zone it isn't it allows a lot more and it is directly opposite an ex extensive area of residentially zon properties the ordinance uh also specifies that any use um not included is prohibited and um I wondered to myself getting again at the lack of information about the specific uses of the two buildings why they need to be the size they are I said well we have two buildings I wonder if they're going to be the same user I don't know I don't recall any kind of pinning down of that that it will only be one user so I wondered to myself H are there going to be more than one use on this property certainly on the R1 zoned portion which is proposed for the private road there will be two uses on that parcel there's the trans transmission lines uh utility lines utility easement that exists and then a a private road is proposed across that to serve uh this development with its successive F so just highlighting my observation of the shortfall of the planning testimony put forward by the applicant there was no discussion of the f on existing Parcels on Allen Road okay I undertook an analysis of that the combined F of the existing developed commercial properties is compliant so if we look at an overall average there really isn't any deviation so why are we proposing such an excessive deviation of almost 60,000 square feet on this site because it serves the applicant and that's not a reason to Grant a D4 variance sorry I missed a portion of your testimony I looked at when you talked about the overall uh uh F being average that was attributable to what areas the commercially uh developed properties in in the study area that I've delineated existing commercially correct develop okay yeah got it MH so I don't think an F of 19.83% with what I've analyzed along Allen Road there wasn't much mention at all or any at all uh by the applicants planning testimony uh about the proximity of the housing and and the Farms that I've I've shown you um my next exhibit will talk more about the sensitive environmental features that are part of this study area and Corridor and they are significant ific the gist of the testimony that was presented to you the board to consider for the F variants was that the peak hour traffic works and so we meet the statutory criteria and you can grant the variance there was little mention of the master plan I think my synopsis of the planning testimony offered was we're going to make storm water management better uh the site was already Disturbed their man-made slopes were compliant with all the Wetland regulations and that was the addressing of the negative criteria I I don't agree with that nor do I think it was adequate uh the the two variances that are denoted by the applicant um the F of course is one there is also the minimum setback to the residential Zone a testimony uh by the applicant was that's about 95 ft but they qualified that by saying that 95 ft is only because of the canopy that we're providing to our entrance and the rest of it is 101 ft there again I say to myself well this is created by their configuration and their insistence on having two separate building buildings um this is not a c variance tied to unique features of this property nor does it correspond to C2 which would be uh public benefit Community benefit benefits outweighing the detriments uh I'll go into that more detail later but I don't think the proofs are met on that either um I want to shift to my final exhibit now we will mark this third exhibit as O3 I'll ask Miss Holquist to just read into the record what this is madam Shar do you need copies of this as well this is not zoomed I think we're good on this one okay this is the same base map as the prior two exhibits and this one is entitled site context is that correct contacts justest prepared by my firm same date April 7th and uh what we wanted to uh illustrate here is is the applicant site plan of course um but also explain to the board what a sensitive area this is environmentally um we used the New Jersey GIS I know the applicant had uh a Wetlands expert we're not really disagreeing with their delineation CU we're not experts we just simply uh are representing what the New Jersey state information shows and that may be for their site that may be superseded by what their expert has delineated but the rest of the area I believe uh you should take into account uh because we merged um the flood Hazard area the 2% the 1% and we called it flood plane just to generalize and and it is really substantial uh you're probably familiar with the bridge that goes over the Dead River the Dead River is about a th000 feet from this property uh and that is uh the area that is encompassed by this really large flood plane uh the Dead River is a tributary of the Pake River in case you need to know that um waterways are sensitive areas um they promote wildlife habitat obviously they contribute to drainage um again looking at this I say to myself is this really the place to provide for an additional almost 60,000 square fet and do we really need all the pollutants particulates vibration noise Etc produced by an additional 6,914 truck trips my answer to you is no I do not see how you can approve these variances if I just pause for one moment here there was testimony at some point that all of the trucks leaving all the tractor trailers leaving 150 Allen Road would have to make a right onto Allen Road is that correct that's what I heard yes and therefore all of those tractor trailers would be going through the flood Hazard area for the Dead River is that correct yes I apologize I interrupted they'll also be going right past the um Fellowship Village Development and coming within 100 feet of the residents there that live on Zion Court okay and what are some of the other environmental constraints that are within the study area uh well other than the flood plane and the wetlands we have a lot of natural mature vegetation uh there's obviously Recreation uh so when I look as a planner I see these environmental constraints I think wildlife habitat there must be a lot of wildlife in this area um given the amount of open space and and proximity to water that's another thing that promotes Wildlife habitation source of water did you have another question nope continue I'm sorry so H having having laid that Foundation of looking at the existing land uses looking at the combined F of commercial uh sites in the study area explaining to you the vast majority of land in this study area is zoned for residential and open space and open space is and farm is also allowed in the E2 zone so th those are things that as a planner to me I look at and say F variants of almost 6 ,000 Square ft how is this corresponding to the negative criteria it isn't it isn't so I'm going to discuss for you now my analysis of the uh variances that are requested by this applicant and the statutory criteria and that in my opinion they fail to meet the statutory criteria so looking first at the the D1 variants this this was a little tricky right because there's an Ingress egress there for the demolished building okay as I understand it no variance was ever granted for that and the prior development was office and it was office in conjunction with a subdivision from the 1980s that basically um hatched if you will all the office development I'm so right now you're referring to the access over lot two residential Zone to lot three the subject lot which is a in a non-residential obviously Zone yes okay thank I'm sorry that's correct yes um so uh regarding that my position is that a D1 variance D1 use variance is is required this is not a D2 in my opinion there's been no proof that this is some prior non-conforming use it's some how occurred with the subdivision and development of offices uh back in the 1980s now we're we have an applicant who wants to significantly modify this Ingress egress um construct a structure that I think is so out of character with this bucolic almost rural area when you're on Allen Road you would never know that i78 is so close if you were just looking around forget Maybe maybe you can hear it I didn't have my windows down I can't speak to that but uh very bucolic very rural uh character to this area and the applicant wants to construct this clearance bar in order to force the agreement of trucks to all turn to the right um there's no other property along Allen Road that has that um most of the time you only see that in a parking garage where there's Limited clearance and uh of course you know for safety reasons you need to have something to control people from ignoring that there's a low clearance it does not belong on a driveway on Allen Road um so I I was a bit surprised uh by that along with many other things in this application section 21- 21.5 of the township ordinance access to non-residential uses state states that private access to non-residential uses shall not be through residential zoned lot or Lots okay that is all you need I think to hang your hat on a D1 variance here um my contention from reading your ordinance is that this is a private road that is proposed in the R1 to serve uh this light manufacturing use section 21 -3.1 a definition section of your Land Development code defines a private road and it says shall mean a paved cartway which provides vehicular access to more than one dwelling or lot which is not located in the public right of way clearly this is providing access to a lot which is not in the public right of way and this whole question just to pause for a moment did you review the prior approval from the 1980s that subdivided this parcel yes was there any approval in that resolution of the planning board that allowed for a driveway to be constructed on lot two to serve a light manufacturing use no thank you there was also uh a question from one of the members of the public I think it was at the May meeting uh to the applicants traffic engineer um something to the effect of what about the driveway on the adjoining site to the East and the response was that was not looked at my recollection is that the applicants engineer could not speak to the geometry of that driveway had not analyzed it and so there again we were wondering why not okay but that's that's what I've been wondering for quite a few aspects of this application so being that the applicant is proposing to widen widen this existing Ingress egress construct this clearance uh bar structure um it's clearly not in keeping with your zoning requirements and for that reason uh they require a D1 variance for this they're proposing a more intense use more truck and more impacts uh turning to the F variants um there was also discussion in the hearings about um subtracting uh the light manufacturing office from the F clearly not allowable uh your code defines f as the sum of the area of all floors of buildings or structures compared to the total area of the site so um maybe that's an attempt to make it look better in terms of the amount of the variants but it really doesn't fly when you're going through what needs to be proven and what is the quantification of the relief that's requested here just to pause there is it your opinion then that this board has to look at the totality of the building when evaluating the F4 variant as the4 variants yes rather than simply looking at the area that was marked light Manufacturing as opposed to office absolutely yes it is the entire building all floors proving the statutory criteria for this F variance is is not just the positive criteria uh which the applicant has tried to color as just peak hour traffic oh the peak hour traffic works we don't have a problem it's the negative criteria and that's why I've produced all these exhibits for your review and consideration because the negative criteria is what is this variance going to impact it's going to impact a really significant area and an area of substantial environmental constraints and that was not presented at all in the applicant's um testimony the C variances are required by the land use law to relate to either C1 the physical feature of the property uh or see two that there's a benefit I don't see either one here uh we have uh C variances that relate to the setback from the residential Zone created by the canopy this is self-created they're positioning two buildings arranging them the way they see fit and then saying well we have a variance because we can't meet the setback uh from from the R1 Zone um the parking the traffic engineer spoke to that again no user specific information um they basically used it said the Township's ordinance is overkill and because I says this we're going to be okay with it but again I would expect for a variance of that magnitude to see some user specific information but none was provided I'm sorry just for clarification if I make the magnitude deviation can you remind us what that is uh yeah the uh the township ordinance uh requires 60 uh spaces I believe this is on the applicant zoning table as well on their site plan and um 328 are proposed um some of that uh takes into account the 14 make ready and the traffic engineer testified that 314 spaces will be built there's also um SE variances for construction in the buffer um there are retaining walls that are positioned according to the location of these buildings and the location of the proposed Ring Road for access to these buildings again this is all self-created there was representations about steep slope the applicant uh submitted that they're man-made I think we look at the site it's Rubble I'm not going to say too much about that um you have standards you can decide how to apply them to this site it's a bit unusual that the building was demolished before getting the approval uh the height of the retaining walls there was extensive testimony about portions of them exceed the 8T again related to the positioning of the buildings positioning of the Ring Road um this only benefits the applicant by getting an additional almost 60,000 square feet of floor area on the site the code allows the board to determine whether screening is is adequate uh AB budding a residential Zone that's in section 21-28 point2d I don't know that there's been um ensive discussion of that there's also removal of buffer vegetation within the 50 Feet there are several design waivers before you get to those design waivers just one question for clarification is it your professional opinion that the excessive excessive F proposed creates a number of C variances yes and and the applicant's decision to create two B buildings on the site yeah uh the design waivers relate to parking space size um lighting mounting Heights average illumination levels the amount of replacement trees and um I don't I don't recall if the uh fire lane issue was resolved with the uh Municipal Fire official but that was something I still had a question about so those that's that's that's that's a lot of relief to ask for we have a combination of 2D variances multiple C variances and several design waivers it's not insignificant and remember the site is oversized oversized and we're starting with a blank slate and we still have all this relief being requested just to clarify in the oversized what is the minimum lot size for this Zone the minimum lot size in the IU zone is 5 acres and how large is this size it says 28.2 oh excuse me the last meeting it was testified to by the applicants Representatives experts that the survey was updated to 28.3 that's what the lot area is so is it fair to say that this lot is more than five times the size of the minimum lot size in the E2 Zone yeah I wouldn't expect to see this degree of relief on a site that was so overs ized please continue um yeah so we took a close look at uh the planning uh Master planning documents for the township uh there was a there's a 2023 master plan and um that hits on some of the concerns of the township but a lot more detail in the 2010 and I turned to the 2010 because I wanted to understand more the intent of the township with the E2 Zone especially because I was a little bit surprised by allowing uh farming and open space when we have all these other little more intensive uses so I I wanted to really educate myself on that part of the negative criteria for any variance whether it's a D1 a D4 or C variance is meeting the negative criteria you have to meet the positive criteria and you have to meet the negative criteria the negative criteria has two prongs that need to be proven to you in order to Grant the variance the first one is no substantial detriment to the public good that's why we had the applicant quantify what what is the annual truck trffic traffic with this um no substantial impairment to the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance Zone plan means master plan the land use objectives of your community the master plan is a very significant document as is a master plan rexs because it forms the foundation of your zoning ordinances and you have an issue if your zoning is is not conforming with your master plan or worse yet if you don't have a current reexamination which you do but communities that don't there is a rebuttable presumption in the municipal land use law that the development regulations may not be valid because they haven't been looked at or examined in the statutory time frame Bernards has done that so the 2023 master plan talks about protecting the neighborhood and Community character it also highlights preserving Agriculture and farmland and as you know Pinson Farm is um hop skip and a jump from this site looking at the 2010 master plan which has a lot more uh detail especially about this area the office SL employment districts um which correspond to the E2 where this site is located um they they are to even though they're near the highway they are to honor the established character will remain as planed and zoned I think I've left no doubt in your mind what my opinion as a planner is as to what the established character of the Allen Road Corridor is it's an environmentally sensitive area it's zoned heavily residential and open space and this applicant wants to exceed the F by almost 60,000 Square fet completely contrary to your master plan objectives can I just um I just want to do a time check because I I want to give an opportunity for the public to ask questions and I'm sure Mr L is going to have questions before that can I just get a time check with respect to how much more testimony you think you have or or questions Smith Smith I think we prob at least a half an hour is that yeah I have the rest of the master plan and then I want to recap on the statutory at least a half an hour more of testimony okay we're going to try and finish this and I'd like you to have an opportunity to ask questions tonight and I'd like to let the public ask questions if they can so we're going to try and do that tonight so if you can just be mindful of that without sure skipping any important parts right we're trying to move through it as quickly as possible I but but let's be clear um everyone gets a full and fair opportunity to present their cases no one's going to be rushed thank you is so regarding the master plan picking up where I left off um in addition to the environmentally constrained lands uh Fellowship Village as I said at the opening occupies over 70 Acres it is the largest uh site on Allen Road and um having a senior development in this Corridor I think is something that should also weigh on you when you're looking at almost 60,000 squ fet excessive f with annual truck trips of approaching 7,000 makes it completely unsuitable makes it fail the negative criteria the 2010 master plan also uh talks about the fellowship Village area um by name and uh emphasizes that and I'm going to quote from it quality of life concerns are of significant importance protecting neighborhood character and managing change in these neighborhoods is a significant planning objective I think that speaks for itself you're being asked to Grant a huge F variance and in this area with these land jues and then further supported by the objectives of land use in your master plan I don't see how you can grant this variance uh and the other Associated variances with this development regarding non-residential objectives the 2010 master plan talks about non-residential development should be compatible and not adversely impact residential development within the township we have Fellowship Village residents within 100 feet of Allen Road we're going to introduce an additional almost 7,000 annual truck trips that's insane to me as a planner I don't understand how you could even contemplate doing something like that and just for clarification that almost 7,000 number that we're not talking or you're not talking about the overall number of tractor trailer trips only the incremental increase if this F variance were to be granted is that correct yes that that is the only Quantified impact that came out of all these hearings and it was only through cross-examination that it came out it was not offered in direct testimony by the applicant regarding environmental resources the 2010 master plan also talks about preserving existing vegetation with a special emphasis on uh protecting native Forest cover which we know is prevalent in this area maintaining buffers and natural vegetation in in stream corridors and I would say that also pertains to Wetlands because they feed into stream corridors uh maintaining and enhancing Community character protecting the Integrity of the existing neighborhood and preventing the intrusion of incompatible new development my professional opinion based on everything I've looked at and I think I have been extremely thorough in what I've looked at um this is not compatible at all this excessive f with uh the Quantified inre increase in truck trips is not compatible with this area and it's also completely incompatible with the land use objectives of your community so there is no rationale the applicants rationale that peak hour trips work that is not the full picture that is not the full picture and we haven't been given the full picture is all we know is what are the truck trips that are attributable to the F variants but the applicant has not analyzed how that's going to affect anything and in fact their testimony was that most of that traffic is going to occur not in the peak hours because the truckers don't want to deal with it so we don't really know we were given a big window 11:00 a.m. to 1: p.m. but that's it so insufficient evidence in my opinion so having finished with the master plan having emphasized to you that this applicant needs to meet U both the positive and the negative criteria for D1 D4 all the C variances uh I'm going to just highlight um the statutory criteria and where they failed in my opinion regarding the D1 variance for the private road uh going through the residential Zone um positive criteria for D1 use variants is that refusal to allow the use would impose undue hardship uh on the applicant Andor um the relief advances the purposes of planning and serves the general welfare because the site is particularly suited having given you a a whole detailed analysis of the zoning of this area the uses that are permitted your master plan this is particularly not suited for this there is no reason why this modified private roadway should be constructed as proposed in a residential Zone the intensification of use here with this excessive F makes the site particularly unsuitable for that use it's the intensity that is forcing this geometry and the widening and the clearance bar and they're all not compatible with this area although the applicant's planner stated some purposes of planning um that he believed in his opinion this application and these variances further I strongly disagree and I'm going to offer two purposes of planning from the ml um that I believe this application runs completely contrary to thus again failing the criteria for use variance um njsa 40 Colin 55d to States the purposes of planning and uh subsection a is the appropriate use of land to promote the general welfare not the case here with this modified geometry with a private roadway going through residential to serve non-residential development and uh zoning specifically prohibits a residential uh non-residential roadway uh in a residential Zone subsection I deals with desirable visual impact again the clearance bar for this um modified um Ingress egress is completely inconsistent with the character the rural bucolic character of Allen Road um so I don't think that they have met the proofs on the D1 and so just just summarizing so in your professional opinion after reviewing all of the testimony and application materials here has the applicant met their burden of proof to establish variance relief under Section D1 of the mlul no thank you um they didn't meet the D4 either in my opinion um for the D4 the impacts of this F variants have not been fully analyzed for this board to consider the arguments have been the peak hour traffic works that that is not the full picture and the full picture only started to come out under cross-examination at the very end of this application and so they have missed the boat so to speak regarding the negative criteria for the F variants I gave you a lot of detail about your master plan I won't repeat that but um this this does not satisfy the land use objectives of this community it's completely counter to them so in your professional opinion has the applicant met its burden of proof to establish the criteria under Section 70 D4 of the ml for this board to Grant an F variants no the applicant has not uh regarding the C variances um they are all driven by the applicant's proposed uh configuration of these buildings the size of the buildings and the fact that they're proposing multiple buildings the sit's oversized tremendously oversized and there's no building on it right now um so so in your professional opinion has the applicant established the statutory proofs under Section 70 C1 or section 70 C2 of the ml for this board to Grant those bulk variances no the proofs have not been met and so in conclusion I've given you a lot of background of what I as a planner uh took into account in my analysis I read all the transcripts watched all the meetings um many many of them I think there's in excess of a dozen um I'm pretty aware of of what the position of the applicant has been throughout this entire process and I would urge you to deny these variances in total because of the environmental sensitivity uh of the area the proximity of residential zoning and fellowship Village the largest parcel on Allen Road and the fact that the applicant's proposed deviations are completely contrary to the municipal land use law and the land use objectives of your community that concludes my testimony I just have a few questions just to clarify some some items at one point in time the applicant called its um business representative Who provided testimony that this application would be a benefit to the community because it would increase the tax base and would bring more people to shop in area uh establishments are those considerations relevant to the applicant establishing that it met the positive or negative criteria for any of the variances no those are not part of the statutory criteria for uh D1 D4 or C variances and then just briefly on tractor trailer traffic and we talk about the negative criteria in addition to just the quantity of tractor trailer traffic are there other negative impacts associated with having increased tractor trailers on the roads absolutely um I'll name a couple um noise is one uh in environmental engineering hooks you can readily find that you know deciel levels of tractor trailers are on the order of 80 to 90 DB um some can be louder some can be softer but not much variation there uh there's obviously vibration because of of the weight uh they can introduce pollutants we are near uh a Waterway here Dead River it can introduce pollutants especially now that all the trucks are going to be making a right turn going straight over the bridge of Dead River and also um particulate matter um air some air pollution uh from the exhaust Etc from heavy Vehicles those are all negative impacts and they could have been Quantified by this applicant and that my last question we heard tonight testimony from the superintendent how does the testimony that there could be a thousand children on routes in this area traveling back and forth to school each day in an area with uh increased truck transportation how does that play into the negative or positive criteria well I think it's important to recognize that number 694 14 that came right from the applicants traffic engineer and and that is the increased truck traffic on the roadway Network attributable to the F variants I don't see how that benefits uh school children in the community okay those are all the questions that I have from Miss homequest okay thank you thank you very much for that testimony um I have one question for you we'll start with the board um with with your um testimony with respect to the D1 driveway variants was your point with respect to um uh your your view around it specific to the increased intensity for the overage of f or was your view more in its entirety it should have a D1 VAR well it is a residential zone so any commercial use of that is prohibited so in so your comments were not specific to the overage it's to the entire site the overage makes it worse yes right yeah but is your view that a D1 variance would be required if we were starting a new if a commercial if we were starting a new with no D4 variants yeah any commercial use on this site we require a D1 okay thank you other questions from the board two um you testified that the you testified that the building on site has been demolished yes when you reviewed the um record and the testimony was there any testimony prior to tonight about the demol the building being demolished that I don't recall but on all my aerial imagery it it is demolished how how do you know it was demolished I I looked at aerial images that are extremely recent and the building is not there you do you know when when when and W point they was been demolished I would have to look back through the historic aals to give you that answer which I don't have that in my hands right now okay all right um You talk testified about Curves in the road right and the speed uh variations can you just uh explain why that is relevant and what what your asking us to consider in terms of the curvature and the and the speed well obviously it's not it's not a straight road right so you know I'm not a traffic engineer this is planning testimony uh the horizontal curvature is is the level curvature vertical is when you're going up and down right and to some degree there is there is both of that on various stretches it's not uniform um from Martinsville road all the way to Somerville Road the conditions vary uh and that's the point I was making that trucks will excessive amount of trucks will have to navigate that coming in and going out thank you um and then my last question is about the D4 and you you you spent a lot of time explaining that and I just want to ask you how you um understand the criteria here that we're asked to use around no substantial substantial detri to the public good what when you looked at this particular uh what you call it a uh service a subject area study area study area you look at this sorry stud area yes thank you you looked at this particular study area um and are saying I think um that there is no substantial detriment to the public no there is I'm sorry yeah there is a substantial detriment sorry to the public you and youve referenced the resident that's about 100 feet away correct uh and the and the like are we to consider anything beyond the subject area when defining what the public good is meaning are we to think of what the uh is there a substantial dment to Bernard's Township as a whole um when this or is the public good really focused on the study area I think the board um can look at it however which way you determine um if it's based on uh evidence and facts uh you heard a lot of testimony about uh the the operations of the schools right from the superintendent so of course you can take that into account as as a planner I probably approach it differently than the superintendent right he's dealing with the entire district and the schools are spread out uh a planner when I'm looking at zoning land use environmental constraints um sometimes it's it's only a joining properties if I'm dealing with a very small area uh if I'm dealing with impacts like this I I start looking wider so as a planner I can't tell you that every single application I look at I'm defining the study area a certain way they're all unique to the facts of that application and for this I determine the boundary lines of the properties that have Frontage on Allen Road and that's how that green line came into existence just to put a point on that um follow up on that and then I'll I'll I'll be done here the is it good for the public to have this demolished building sitting there or is it better to have the to Grant these variances and yes have 6,000 more trucks but get rid of this demolished building get two brand new buildings put there that are gonna um be on the site and active and doing things um how are we supposed to weigh that or are we not supposed to weigh that my opinion is that the variances that are being requested are wholly inconsistent with your master plan land use objectives and also totally inconsistent with at least two objectives of the municipal land use law purposes of planning thank you any other questions from the board yeah so if the applicant were to build the building and not exceed the F and not be seeking as many variances we would still have the truck traffic it would just be a smaller amount think if they did that if they met the F and they weren't seeking as many especially the do you think I don't think there's any reason there can't be a compliant uh development on this site or I'll call it Redevelopment right because there was something on there this is not like a virgin property of Woodland um but if they if they had um no D variances and just C variances but again it's such an oversized site um but let's just say parking okay say they had compliant with everything except parking and they presented they first of all they'd be before the planning board not you guys and I would think that you know the township experts might want some findings of fact and evidence on why do you think this is the right amount of parking so the one thing I'm thinking about even if they wering the one of the things that the appc is asking for is for giving us the option of having is that bar and that's for the trucks at the exit to keep them from making that left on and that's a safety concern and you're talking about how this is like this beautiful call you know Wonderful area and green and you know that's going to be completely out of character if they you know met the F you're basically saying we don't want that because it's not in keeping with the character of the area but that's that's being prevented for safy to protect like upper well that that was the solution offered by the applicants uh traffic engineer and I guess site team right we'll call it the applicants team that doesn't mean it was the only solution I'm I'm not the traffic engineer I'm not part of the applicants team I don't know what kind of discussions they had but that was the solution they offered you that doesn't mean that it's the only solution in fact in in Land Development A lot of times there is more than one solution you know yeah I just have one followup question that even if the F complied on the site would a D1 variance still be needed to have a private driveway serving light manufacturing on lot two yes I'm sorry on lot lot three sorry yeah driveway on lot two serving lot three yes it would need a D1 variance because no no variance has ever been granted for that roadway thank you have any questions board members I I I just have a couple purposes uh you used the term as I recall it study area that was the term you used my study area yes study area and uh are you equating study area with applicable neighborhood for purposes of the negative criteria analysis for the variance various variance relief particularly with respect to the first prog no substantial detriment to the public good that's a good question yeah oh thank you it's a good question qu after this first question a good question good question um yeah because uh whether whether I'm uh reviewing an application for Community or if I'm for the applicant I'm not always doing opposition like I am here tonight but um I I look at what who's going to feel the impacts of this relief right and that's why I was trying to express to the board member uh that's why for me every study area is delineated differently and so when I looked at this area and and saw only you know an intersection at each end each you know East and West End and uh looked at the land juices that were around it I said well no to me the area of impact if you will is is this entire corer I'm gonna want to make sure I understand the the area of impact especially for defining the negative criteria right that's what you're asking me well I'm asking you if you're equating your term of study area with the term that's generally used the applicable neighborhood for purposes of the first PR of the negative criteria right as a as a planner yes or no yes yes as a professional planner yes okay thank you for clarifying that can I ask a question oh I had a few more but it's okay okay the do you have any opinion one way or another whether the proposed use itself as based on the evidence presented thus far requires a D1 use variance I.E is it a permitted use or in your opinion not a permitted use do you have an opinion one way or the other very little information has been provided and if I were sitting with a board reviewing an application like this as the board's consultant I probably would have suggested of course you make suggestions to the board you recommend it's really the the board's determination I I would have suggested that more detail is needed on the floor plan that we have to have an understanding of what are the functions within this space and how do they interrelate but that has not been provided so I guess I'm still want so is it your position do you have no opinion one way or the other as to whether a D1 use variance is required for the use as testified to well they delineated or denoted on the plan light manufacturing and office those are both permitted uses okay just is that the same question you asked or is it different different so different I just clarify difference there are two different zones here correct that we're talking about oh for the well the roadway is in the R1 right so let's talk about the in the E2 zone is light manufacturing a permitted use yes okay uh in the R1 in the R1 zone is a private driveway serving light manufacturing a permitted use no it's not let let me be clear the uh I'm referring to lot three where the buildings are proposed to be constructed um do you one way or the other have an opinion as to whether based on the evidence that's been presented thus far the applicant is Seeking a conforming use or not they have testified that they are they have represented to this board that they are proposing conforming use and they've chosen not to show a lot of supporting detail if any so how can I disagree with the representation of of the applicant the I'm not following that all I I just don't understand what that means I just can't understand Mr let's let me be clear here it has been represented to this board that it's late manufacturing there's been very little evidence presenting presented as to what is actually going to happen in this building my client's position is if it is light manufacturing which is what they say it's going to be and to trust them that later as zoning officer is going to make that determination it's light manufacturing if it's l manufacturing we do not disagree that that is a permitted use but if if you're asking us if we know for sure that what they proposed is light manufacturing that's for the board to decide based on the very little evidence that's been presented okay and I I understand that may be by way of summation and uh if that's why I asked the question of the ex objectors planner right uh if she had an opinion it's it's not the opposition's um prerogative to ask the applicant for more supporting information on their use do I have my doubts would I accept that for a board I was Consulting for I would highly recommend to that board that they seek more detail to demonstrate I would not be putting it all on the zoning officer when they come in you know for building plans or a CO you have a position as to whether or not the applicant met its burden approval with respect to that establishing they they haven't met it uh Regarding why they need this F variant no no conforming use on lot three oh light manufacturing conforming use yes what do you have an opinion as to whether or not the applicant you said you reviewed you were here reviewed all the evidence and you're a planner do you have an opinion one way or the other as to whether or not the applicant met its burden Pro proof and establishing it as a conforming you is proposing a conforming use all they all they said is that yes they are they didn't substantiate that with any documentation that's it they gave testimony under oath that that is what they're proposing moving to lot two the private road is an access over a lot two which is a residential Zone to lot three which is in a non-residential Zone as you testify the um you testify that requires a D1 use Vance correct correct in the event it is determined that variance is required and that that variance is a D2 variance what is your opinion with respect to whether or not the applicant me burden approv for the two variants uh uh if it were pre-existing uh uh uh non-conforming use I've I've seen no evidence that this is a pre-existing non-conforming use and I've seen no evidence that a variance was was granted for this ever so given those two things no evidence to support that it was a prior non-conforming use and no variance being granted I don't think it can be classified as a D2 in the event there was a that you decide that it is one I don't I don't think there's enough evidence to decide that it is a D2 and even if you say okay it is a D2 I don't think they've provided you with evidence at at all did you also say that it was your opinion that there were two principal uses on BL to yeah there there are there is an existing transmission line uh with a a RightWay easement uh for that utility so that's one use and then the second use is the proposed roadway to serve lot three and are you saying that that requires an additional variance uh is that the same D1 variant for having an access road from a residential to a non-residential Zone in other words is it one all part of the same variance or is there two separate variances in your opinion well it depends on how conservative you want to be um usually when I'm advising a board I and I have objectors I want to be extremely conservative because I don't want an appealable item so if I were advising the board I would say the objector planner says it's two uses clearly it is uh we know those those two uses are separate and distinct and so why don't we say a use variance for that as well two uses and that are not residential if that's your opinion what type of variance would that be in your opinion I I you I'm trying to find um if there's a section in your code that prohibits more than one use and I thought that there was I thought that there was but I don't have that citation right in front of me but if there is uh a Prohibition on more than one use then that would be the variance that is um should be requested and what if there is what would that variance okay I think I think I think the citation may be section 21- 3.1 perhaps uh where that talks about only uh uh one one use one principal use on a lot we have more than one principle use on a lot if that if that's your opinion and if that were the case in your opinion what type of variance would that be a c variance a d variance a d variance what type of D variance it would be a D1 because you're asking for two principal uses is it your opinion that a planning variance of section 35 ml planning variance is required of the applicant uh in the event lot three does not above a public Street when when you look at the tax maps lot three technically does have Frontage on island road so I think that's something that should be considered by the board if I were advising the board I would say technically it has X number of fr Frontage on our tax maps so I I don't think I think it's section 35 of the mlul um that we don't need to call that into play so your opinion is that planning variance is not required correct no no that's correct it is not required yeah the the with respect to the C variance relief as you test thei do you is it your opinion that none of the bulk variances that are required of the applicant satisfy the C1 criteria yes that's correct because they are not related to the physical features of the site the site is oversized for the zone and uh there are no public benefits associated with this did I also hear you correctly say that as the summer all of them they deviations were self-created yes are there any in your opinion of the see all variances that in your opinion were not self-created Devi or the deviations were not self created perhaps just the steep slope um because those were testified by the applicant they were man-made slopes and uh in keeping with the classifications of the township uh regarding disturbance of steep slopes um that existed I would say that's the only one and did I understand your opinion to be that the applicant had not met its burden of approv under the alternative basis for bulk variance relief under subsection 70 C2 right as to any of the variances I don't see any benefits with the c variances no no public benefits no no benefits outweighing the detriment no I don't believe the positive criteria is satisfied and am I correct that the criteria for C2 on the positive criteria should proceed to variants relief with respect to benefits and detents is that the benefits must be public and they must substantially outweigh the detriments associated with the relief sort yes and and typically it would be a better zoning alternative with respect to the D1 use variants Rel that you will P the applicant because the applicant has taking the position they do not require such relief correct but you will find that some D1 use variants relief is required um can you address your understanding of the bichi reconciliation on the negative criteria as presented by the applicant whether or not they met their burden proof with respect to say well that they didn't address the medich criteria because they they said was a ded2 uh that the roadway was already there um that was their argument um regarding that as a D2 I have nothing further Madam chair thank you Mr Warner Mr Lair do you have questions for our planner m a lot yes it's up to your hearing but I have a lot to ask okay um well given the time I don't think it makes sense to have you start now um and this was a lot of testimony so got to give you that time I I think um our next schedule meeting is August 7th that's our regular scheduled meeting and I think our um agenda does allow for a signature to continue Miss kefir on August August 7th um so we will carry this hearing uh for the benefit of the public we will carry this hearing till August 7th the meeting will be here in this room and we will um Carry On I assume Miss Smith your planner can return on August 7th I was just about to ask the same question okay is August 7th an available date for you yes I'm free it's in my calendar okay so we'll carry it then and then Mr Lair you'll have your time I will um ple please keep it quiet so so everyone and all members of the public can hear what we're doing and when we're carrying this matter as I'm sure you want to know the meting will be carried to August 7th that is our regular scheduled meeting it will be on August 7th okay I will have undergone an operation on my shoulder next week for rotator cuff surgery but I will have a cuff so I will do my best to make myself comprehensible okay thank thank you I I hope it goes well thank you I hope it goes well do we need an extension of time or we yes the extension is granted until just ask the public please to carry on your conversations outside and preferably outside the building just because our meeting is going to continue we're not out of session yet I want to make sure we can hear Mr lir I'm so sorry the the uh the extension is granted through August 8th and I'll put that in writing thank you um thank you very much just for the purposes of advanced planning do we have an idea of not holding the boards anything but an idea of when the September date may be if we do not conclude yet we we don't um if we can figure that out uh and we have a guess we we'll get that to you okay but at this time we don't thank you thank you did I miss anything that you were saying no okay um are there any comments uh from Members any comments from staff thank you for staying a little late um tonight so uh I'll entertain a motion to a turn motion thank you every favor