GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. FOR THE RECORD, MY NAME IS LIZ BRITTEN, DISTRICT NINE CITY COUNCILMAN . I AM THE CHAIR OF THE BOSTON CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT.  I AM JOINED BY MY COLLEAGUES THIS MORNING COUNCILOR HENRY SANTANA AT LARGE CITY COUNCILOR AT LARGE WHO IS THE LEAD SPONSOR OF THIS ADVOCATE. WRITTEN COMMENTS MAY BE SENT. THIS HEARING IS BEING RECORDED. IT WILL BE LIVE STREAMED.  BOSTON. DOT GOV. BACKSLASH CITY DODGE CONSOLE DASH TV AND BROADCAST ON X FENTY CHANNEL EIGHT RC AND CHANNEL 82 FIREHOUSE CHANNEL 964. WRITTEN COMMENTS MAY BE SENT TO THE COMMITTEE EMAIL AT C C C DOT W M AT BOSTON DOT GOV AND WILL BE MADE A PART OF THE RECORDING AVAILABLE TO ALL COUNCILORS.  PUBLIC TESTIMONY WILL BE TAKING AT THE END OF THIS HEARING. IF YOU WISH TO SIGN UP FOR PUBLIC TESTIMONY HERE IN THE CHAMBER PLEASE SIGN IN ON THE SHEET NEAR THE DOOR. IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO TESTIFY VIRTUALLY PLEASE EMAIL CALLER MENTIONED. OF CHORUS C YOU ARE A DODGE M AND T R O AND D AT BOSTON NCOV FOR THE LINK AND YOUR NAME WILL BE ADDED TO THE LIST. TODAY'S HEARING IS ON DOCKET NUMBER 0398. ORDER FOR A HEARING TO EXPLORE STRATEGIES FOR DEVELOPING MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING TO INCREASE ACCESS AND AFFORDABILITY FOR ALL BOSTONIANS.  THIS MORNING WE HAVE A PANEL FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.  KENZIE BOK, ADMINISTRATOR OF THE BOSTON HOUSING AUTHORITY . AND SHEILA DILLON, CHIEF OF HOUSING AND DIRECTOR OF THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OF HOUSING. I WILL PASS.  I'VE ALSO HAD A LETTER OF ABSENCE AN APOLOGY. DEAR COUNCILOR BREADON AND ESTEEMED CITY COUNCIL MEMBER COLLEAGUES, I HOPE THIS MESSAGE FINDS YOU WELL. I REGRET TO INFORM YOU THAT I WILL BE UNABLE TO ATTEND TODAY'S HEARING TO EXPLORE STRATEGIES FOR DEVELOPING MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING. I WILL REVIEW THE RECORDING AND REMAIN ENGAGED IN THIS VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING. SINCERELY TANYA FERNANDEZ ANDERSON CITY COUNCIL COUNCILOR FOR DISTRICT SEVEN. I WILL NOW HAND OVER TO COUNCILOR SANTANA. COUNCILOR SANTANA, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR. THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR AND GOOD MORNING EVERYONE.  THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME . THANK YOU, COUNCILOR BRUTON FOR JOINING ME AS WELL AS A CO-SPONSOR FOR THIS HEARING. MY THANKS TO COUNCIL PRESIDENT LOUIJEUNE FOR JOINING ME AS WELL AS A CO-SPONSOR AND MY THANKS TO MY COLLEAGUES AND OUR PANELISTS FOR JOINING US HERE TODAY.  THE ORDER OF THIS HEARING WAS THE SUBJECT OF MY INAUGURAL COUNCIL SPEECH.  I'D LIKE TO SHARE SOME BRIEF THOUGHTS ABOUT WHY I FOCUS ON MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING AS A STRATEGY. I BELIEVE THE COUNCIL SHOULD COLLECTIVELY EXPLORE TO HELP ADDRESS HOUSING ACCESS AND AFFORDABILITY FOR ALL BOSTONIANS. AND I'D LIKE TO SHARE A COUPLE OF THINGS I HOPE I'LL DISCUSS IN TODAY'S HEARING. IT'S BROUGHT US MEANING SOCIAL HOUSING CAN INCLUDE ANY HOUSING THAT'S UNDER PUBLIC OR COMMUNITY CONTROL.  I GREW UP IN PUBLIC HOUSING HERE IN BOSTON AND I LIVE TAYLOR BAKER APARTMENTS ON ANNUNCIATION ANNUNCIATION ROAD AND MISSION HILL.  GROWING UP IN PUBLIC HOUSING MEANT A LOT TO MY FAMILY AND ME AND ALLOWED US TO FIND A NEIGHBORHOOD AND A PLACE THAT WE FEEL COMFORTABLE IN AND THAT WE ALL CALL HOME. THE NEIGHBORHOOD REALLY WELCOME US AS AN IMMIGRANT FAMILY COMING FROM THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC WITH VERY LIMITED RESOURCES PUBLIC HOUSING ALLOWED US TO REALLY THRIVE HERE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON. IT GAVE US ACCESS TO OUR BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, TO OUR BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARIES AND TO OUR PARKS AND A LOT OF IT ALLOWED MY PARENTS TO BE ABLE TO FIND JOBS WHILE SENDING US TO SCHOOL. IT WAS JUST A GREAT EXPERIENCE FOR MY FAMILY AND ME AND IT'S A REASON WHY WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO CALL BOSTON HOME TODAY FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE. I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN PUBLIC HOUSING AS PART OF THE SOLUTION. ESPECIALLY FOR OUR MOST VULNERABLE FAMILIES AND RESIDENTS. I BELIEVE IT'S FOUNDATIONAL TO FAMILY SUCCESS AND TRUST AND IT'S TRANSFORMATIVE FOR MANY FAMILIES AND RESIDENTS THAT GO THROUGH IT. BUT IT CAN CREATE A TRAP.  WE NEED PATHWAYS FOR PEOPLE TO BUILD WEALTH AND IMPROVE THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES.  BUT OUR CURRENT HOUSING ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS OFTEN CREATE CHALLENGING OR IMPOSSIBLE FINANCIAL DECISIONS FOR OUR RESIDENTS. IF YOUR INCOME INCREASES ENOUGH TO STOP QUALIFYING FOR A HOUSING PROGRAM BUT NOT ENOUGH TO AFFORD BOSTON RENTS THEN YOU'RE JUST STUCK. TO END THESE FINANCIAL CLIFFS WE NEED NEW PROGRAMS THAT PROVIDE A RANGE OF HOUSING OPTIONS FOR ALL INCOME LEVELS. THERE IS A MASSIVE GAP BETWEEN LOW INCOME HOUSING AND MARKET RATE HOUSING. IT'S TOO FAR TO MAKE THE LEAP AND THE PATH BETWEEN THEM IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE AND ESPECIALLY IN BOSTON WHERE A HISTORY OF URBAN RENEWAL AND REDLINING HAS SPLIT OUR NEIGHBORHOODS APART BY RACE AND INCOME. WE NEED TO BRING OUR RESIDENTS TOGETHER ACROSS INCOME LEVELS. THAT'S WHERE MIXED INCOME HOUSING COMES IN AND WE HAVE SOME WONDERFUL AND SUCCESSFUL EXAMPLES OF MIXED INCOME HOUSING HERE IN BOSTON LIKE TEN CITY APARTMENTS IN THE BACK BAY AND THE REDEVELOPED BLEND OF SOME OF OUR VERY PUBLIC HOUSING LIKE THE MARY ELLEN MCCORMICK IN SOUTH BOSTON. WE'LL STEP IN THIS DIRECTION BY INCORPORATING NEW MIXED AND MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING. SO WILL THE BUNKER HILL HOUSING REDEVELOPMENT IN CHARLESTOWN.  THESE TWO IDEAS MIXED INCOME HOUSING AND SOCIAL HOUSING CAN BE EVEN MORE POWERFUL TOGETHER. SOCIAL HOUSING IS A LONG PROVEN SOLUTION FOR CREATING HIGH QUALITY AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN OTHER COUNTRIES.  THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN FOSTERING COMMUNITIES THAT AREN'T DIVIDED BY INCOME.  CITY OWNED AND CO-OP UNITS ARE AROUND 17% OF HOUSING AND HOW ELSE AND HALF OF THE VIENNA HOUSING MARKET AND SOCIAL HOUSING PROVIDES HOMES FOR OVER 80% OF RESIDENTS AND THE POOR. BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN UNSURE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN UNSURE IF IT'S FEASIBLE OR APPROACHED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES SYSTEM THAT'S HISTORICALLY BEEN SO DEPENDENT ON PRIVATE INVESTORS OR FEDERAL SUBSIDIES. OUR CURRENT PUBLIC HOUSING TREATS GOVERNMENT FUNDS AS AN EXPENSE.  THAT'S A PROBLEM. IT'S NOT FINANCIALLY SUSTAINABLE. WE END UP CREATING UNITS PRONE TO NOT BEING TAKEN CARE OF AND PUBLIC HOUSING RESIDENTS ARE STIGMATIZED WHEN LIVING CONDITIONS ARE POOR. TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS TAKES MONEY BUT FEDERAL FUNDS ARE LIMITED. THEY CAN FILL THE GAP FOR EVERYONE. INCORPORATING MIDDLE INCOME AND MARKET RATE UNITS CAN BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. THE INCOME FROM THOSE UNITS MAKE OUR PUBLIC MONEY GO FURTHER. THAT INCOME ALLOWS BETTER HOMES WITH MORE COMMUNITY BENEFITS AND THAT'S WHY AS MUCH AS I ADMIRE THE SUCCESS OF SOCIAL HOUSING IN OTHER COUNTRIES, I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN FOCUS TODAY'S DISCUSSION ON MODELS IN THE U.S. THAT HAVE SHOWN THIS IS POSSIBLE HERE TOO. THE LOCAL HOUSING AUTHORITY IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND SUCCESSFULLY CREATED HUNDREDS OF HOMES AND MIXED INCOME MIXED USE COMMUNITY THAT OPENED LAST YEAR. THEY DID IT WITHOUT NEEDING TRADITIONAL FEDERAL TAX CREDITS OR FUNDING AND THEY FOUND A WAY TO DO THAT BUT FINANCIALLY SUSTAINABLE. WE'RE USED TO THE GOVERNMENT GIVING AWAY OUR PUBLIC FUNDS AND PUBLIC LAND TO PRIVATE DEVELOPERS.  WE'RE USED TO OUR PUBLIC ASSETS BEING USED ONCE AND LOST. BUT THIS NEW APPROACH TO MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING IS SHOWING IT'S POSSIBLE TO USE PUBLIC FUNDS TO CREATE PUBLIC BENEFITS INSTEAD OF PRIVATE PROFITS.  IT'S POSSIBLE TO TREAT PUBLIC FUNDS AS AN INVESTMENT, NOT AS AN EXPENSE. I'M THRILLED THAT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PAUL WILLIAMS FROM THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISE HAS JOINED US TODAY. HE'S BEEN WORKING CLOSELY TOO WITH MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND OTHER HOUSING AUTHORITIES TO IMPLEMENT THESE SYSTEMS AND WE'RE SEEING THESE IDEAS GAIN INTEREST ACROSS THE UNITED STATES ALONG WITH MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ATLANTA, SEATTLE, COLORADO, HAWAII, CALIFORNIA AND RHODE ISLAND ARE EXPLORING OR PILOTING MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING PROGRAMS.  AND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS I WANT TO SHARE MY APPRECIATION THAT OUR STATE LEGISLATURE IS CONSIDERING INCLUDING A SOCIAL HOUSING PILOT FUND IN THE AFFORDABLE HOMES ACT. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO DISCUSSING TODAY HOW WE MIGHT APPROACH TO ADDING SOCIAL HOUSING TO OUR TOOLBOX HERE IN BOSTON. I WANT TO THANK CHIEF SHEILA DILLON AND VHA ADMINISTRATOR KENZIE BOGGS AGAIN FOR JOINING US TODAY. MY HOPE IS THAT WE CAN DISCUSS SOME OF THE EXISTING APPROACHES WE USE TO ADDRESS HOUSING ACCESS AND AFFORDABILITY IN BOSTON AND WHAT THE WHAT THEIR BENEFITS AND SHORTCOMINGS ARE AND SEE WHERE MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING COULD BE AN ADDITIONAL ADDITIONAL TOOL TO HELP US FILL IN SOME OF THE GAPS. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DISCUSSION. THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR.  THANK YOU, COUNCILOR SANTANA.  AS THE CHAIR OF THE HOUSING COMMITTEE I CAN SAY HOW EXCITED I AM TO HOST THIS CHAIR THIS MEETING THIS MORNING. I THINK SOCIAL MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO EXPLORE AND INVEST IN. SADLY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T MADE ANY SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT IN SOCIAL HOUSING SINCE THE 1980S SO WE HAVE A LOT OF CATCHING UP TO DO AND IN THIS MOMENT WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS THE LEGACY OF REDLINING AND SEGREGATED HOUSING POLICIES FROM THE PAST, I THINK AND TRYING TO MAKE OUR BOSTON A VERY INCLUSIVE, EQUITABLE AND SUSTAINABLE COMMUNITY FOR EVERYONE. I THINK SOCIAL HOUSING IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THAT DISCUSSION SO I'M REALLY PLEASED TO WELCOME A COUNSELOR AND I'M GOING TO SAY COUNSELOR TO FORMER COUNSELOR KENZIE VULCANO AND ADMINISTRATOR OF THE BOSTON HOUSING AUTHORITY AND CHIEF SHEILA DILLON, CHIEF OF HOUSING AND DIRECTOR OF THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OF HOUSING IN THE CITY OF BOSTON. I'D ALSO LIKE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MY COLLEAGUE COUNCILOR BEN WEBER FROM DISTRICT SIX IS HERE AND COUNCILOR AND MURPHY CITY COUNCILMAN MAJOR JOINED US SO I'LL HAND IT OVER TO THE PANEL WHO WANTS TO START THIS MORNING. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR THE RECORD. MY NAME IS SHEILA DILLON, CHIEF OF HOUSING FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON AND AS YOU MENTIONED, DIRECTOR OF THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OF HOUSING. AND I DO WANT TO THANK CHAIRPERSON BREADON AND CITY COUNCILOR HENRY SANTANA FOR BRINGING THIS THIS TOPIC FORWARD FOR DISCUSSION AND REVIEW. I AM EXTREMELY SUPPORTIVE OF THE IDEA AND LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THE CITY COUNCIL ADMINISTRATOR BOK AND THE VHA TEAM AND SOME OF THE HOUSING ADVOCATES THAT ARE HERE TODAY TO REALLY MOVE THIS CONCEPT FORWARD IN A IN A BIG AND MEANINGFUL WAY.  THE CITY OF BOSTON AS YOU ARE ALL VERY WELL AWARE, HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD TO INCREASE THE SUPPLY OF INCOME RESTRICTED HOUSING THROUGHOUT THE CITY OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE CITY COUNCIL . WE'VE INCREASED RESOURCES FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING MOST NOTABLY MAKING WELL OVER $200 MILLION AVAILABLE FOR ARPA. WE COMPLETED A LAND AUDIT TO IDENTIFY SURPLUS PROPERTIES WHERE WE COULD BUILD SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF MIXED INCOME DEVELOPMENTS IN UNITS. WE INCREASED THE OBLIGATION FROM PRIVATE OF PRIVATE DEVELOPERS MAKING THEM PROVIDE MORE INCOME RESTRICTED HOUSING IN THEIR DEVELOPMENTS AND AND ADDITION WE HAVE PROVIDED FUNDING FOR NONPROFITS FOR PROFITS AND LAND TRUSTS SO THEY CAN ACQUIRE PORTFOLIOS AND TAKE THEM OUT OF THE SPECULATIVE MARKET.  SO ALL OF THAT WORK IS GREAT. IT'S ONGOING AND IT'S IT'S YIELDING GOOD RESULTS. BUT AS A CITY WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE LOOKING FOR NEW NEW TOOLS, NEW WAYS OF DOING BUSINESS TO ADDRESS OUR HOUSING NEEDS. SO THEREFORE I THINK WE REALLY SHOULD EXPLORE HOW TO INCREASE OUR PUBLICLY OWNED HOUSING BY DEVELOPING SOCIAL HOUSING. AND THERE'S A FEW PARTICULAR REASONS I THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO THIS. OVER THE YEARS FOR ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, THE NUMBER OF UNITS IN THE VHA PORTFOLIO HAS DECREASED.  IT'S BEEN A IT'S BEEN A STRATEGY TO TO GET VERY, VERY OBSOLETE PUBLIC HOUSING RENOVATED USING USING TOOLS THAT ARE AVAILABLE IN THE PRIVATE MARKET. BUT BUT THEIR PORTFOLIO HAS BEEN REDUCED EVEN WHEN THE WAITLIST FOR PUBLIC HOUSING IS IS GROWING, YOU KNOW, DAILY. THE BANK ALSO HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE A LOT OF ITS PROPERTY RIGHT NOW TO INCREASE DENSITY. A LOT OF THE LAND SURROUNDING SOME OF OUR LOWER DENSITY PUBLIC HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS IT COULD BE INCREASED AND WE COULD SEE MORE MIXED INCOME COMMUNITIES TAKE ROOT THERE. AND OF COURSE I'M STATING THE OBVIOUS THE NEED FOR ADDITIONAL HOUSING ESPECIALLY INCOME RESTRICTED HOUSING CONTINUES TO GROW. RIGHT NOW THE CITY OF BOSTON HAS 66,000 RENTERS THAT ARE HOUSING COST BURDENED.  SO FOR ALL OF THOSE REASONS I JUST CAN'T BE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF LOOKING AT THIS AS A MODEL.  IT BUILDS STRONG COMMUNITIES. IT PUTS MORE UNITS BACK INTO THE PORTFOLIO AND AND IT REALLY WILL MAKE OUR CITY SO MUCH STRONGER. SO WITH THAT I AM LEARNING TO I WANT TO HAND IT OVER TO OUR EXPERT ADMINISTRATOR BOK SO SHE CAN WALK THROUGH SOME OF OUR THINKING ON THIS. BUT I'M HERE TO LEARN AND CERTAINLY HERE TO WORK WITH THE CITY COUNCIL . THANK YOU. THANK YOU.  THANK YOU SO MUCH CHIEF DILLON AND THANK YOU CHAIR BRAYTON AND COUNCILOR SANTANA, COUNCILOR WEBER,  COUNCILOR MURPHY AND ALTHOUGH I LEFT IT IS A PLEASURE TO ME ALWAYS TO BE BACK IN THIS CHAMBER AND AN HONOR AND ESPECIALLY EXCITED TO TALK ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND WANT TO START BY CONGRATULATING COUNCILOR STANTON ON HIS MAIDEN SPEECH AND ON ACTUALLY HOLDING A HEARING ON HIS MAIDEN SPEECH WHICH IS NOT ALWAYS DONE BY EVERYONE. SO THE EXACT BUT I THINK IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE LAUDED WHEN IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.  SO CONGRATULATIONS AND YOU KNOW REALLY THERE THERE CAN'T BE I THINK A MORE URGENT TOPIC THAN THIS. SO REALLY I'M GLAD THAT WE'RE ALL HERE TOGETHER TODAY. YOU KNOW THE MAYOR AND OUR ADMINISTRATION REALLY BELIEVES IN HOUSING AS A HUMAN RIGHT HOUSING AS A PUBLIC GOOD. AND IF WE WANT TO MAKE THOSE THINGS MORE THAN SLOGANS RIGHT, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT MECHANISMS LIKE THIS FOR REALLY PUTTING THEM INTO PRACTICE. AND I THINK A TON OF THE THINGS THAT SHEILA JUST LISTED THAT THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OF HOUSING DOES IS ABOUT THAT AND A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AT VHA ARE ABOUT THAT . BUT WE ALWAYS HAVE TO BE ASKING OURSELVES HOW CAN WE DO MORE?  THE FIRST THING I WANT TO SAY IS THAT PUBLIC HOUSING IS SOCIAL HOUSING.  IT IS A FORM OF SOCIAL HOUSING, RIGHT? IT WAS BUILT TO HOW TO SAY BASICALLY ON THE PREMISE THAT LIKE EVERYBODY DESERVES A SAFETY DECENT AFFORDABLE PLACE TO LIVE AND AND THE REALITY IS THAT WHEN PUBLIC HOUSING WAS FIRST BUILT IT REALLY DID HAS OUR MIDDLE AND LOWER INCOME RESIDENTS AND IT HAS COME TO SERVE ONLY OUR MOST LOW INCOME RESIDENTS BUT THAT IS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T BUILD ENOUGH RIGHT SO BECAUSE IN THE CITY WE HAVE A COMMITMENT TO PREVENTING HOMELESSNESS AND WE HAVE A HOMELESS PRIORITY AT THE VHA AND WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE ON THE STREET A CHALLENGE THAT WE ARE GRAPPLING WITH BOTH IN THE CITY AND STATEWIDE RIGHT NOW.  BECAUSE OF THAT WE PRIORITIZE MAKING SURE THAT THE LOWEST INCOME, THE MOST VULNERABLE FOLKS GET INTO PUBLIC HOUSING AND WE'RE SUPER PROUD OF THAT.  I FEEL LIKE IT'S WORTH SAYING BECAUSE IN BOSTON SOMETIMES WE DON'T KNOW THAT ANYTHING HAPPENS OUTSIDE OF THE CITY OF BOSTON. BUT IT'S WORTH SAYING THAT WITH THE AVERAGE INCOME OF OUR RESIDENTS AND VHA BEING 17% OF AREA MEDIAN INCOME SO THAT'S ONE SEVEN THAT'S ONE OF THE LOWEST IF NOT THE LOWEST IN THE COUNTRY OF A LARGE PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY. AND IT'S BECAUSE OF OUR COMMITMENT TO HOUSING PEOPLE OUT OF HOMELESSNESS. SO YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT THING THAT WE DO. THE REALITY IS IS THAT PUBLIC HOUSING ELIGIBILITY IS TECHNICALLY UP TO 80% OF AREA MEDIAN INCOME. SO AGAIN THE PROGRAM IS WRITTEN TO ALSO BE A MIDDLE INCOME HOUSING PROGRAM BUT THERE IS JUST SUCH A SHORTAGE, RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT 10,000 UNITS THAT THE BANK IS DIRECTLY OWNING AND MANAGING FURTHER UNITS THAT WERE CONVERTED OFTEN AS SHEILA SAID WITH A LOSS OF TOTAL UNITS WHERE WE PASS SUBSIDY THROUGH AND THEN ANOTHER 17,000 UNITS THAT WE PROVIDE VOUCHERS FOR.  BUT THE BUT THE THING TO THE THING TO JUST RECALL IS THAT WITH 42,000 FOLKS ON THE WAITLIST 10,000 UNITS WE'VE CONTROLLED DIRECTLY SOMEWHAT RIGHT WE JUST WE CAN'T TAKE CARE OF EVERYBODY AND IT'S NOT ABLE TO SERVE LIKE ALL INCOME LEVELS IN THE SAME WAY WE DO WE DO SERVE HIGHER INCOME LEVELS PARTICULARLY IN THE SENIOR PORTFOLIO ON AVERAGE BECAUSE SENIOR WE HAVE A LOT OF SENIORS WHO ARE ON A FIXED INCOME WHO ARE KIND OF IN THAT LOWER MIDDLE BAND BUT IT'S STILL TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO SURVIVE IN BOSTON AND SO YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT BECAUSE OF THAT ONE OF OUR SOCIAL HOUSING COMMITMENTS IS THE ONE THAT THE MAYOR ANNOUNCED IN JANUARY WHICH IS FOR THE BOSTON HOUSING AUTHORITY OVER THE NEXT DECADE TO BUILD ALL 3000 ADDITIONAL FAIRCLOUGH UNITS THAT WE'RE ENTITLED TO UNDER FEDERAL LAW.  SO THAT'S THE BOSTON HAS A TOTAL CAP THE NUMBER OF PUBLIC HOUSING UNITS THAT WE CAN ADMINISTER BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GUARANTEES SUBSIDY FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM. AND SO RIGHT NOW THAT NUMBER BUT WE WE WHEN WE DEMOLISH UNITS WE'RE DEALING WITH THE OBSOLETE HOUSING WE LOST UNITS. SO IN TOTAL OVER THE DECADES BOSTON HAS LOST 2964 COMPARED TO WHERE WE WERE IN 1999. SO THAT'S NOT 3000. SO WE WANT TO BUILD THOSE BACK NOW BUILDING UP NEW PUBLIC HOUSING AGAIN IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT THE VHA HAS DONE BEFORE.  IT USED TO BE A CORE PART OF OUR BUSINESS SO IN THE 1930S WE BUILT A THOUSAND UNITS IN THE 1940S WE BUILT 4500 IN THE 1950S 5500 THEN IT WAS I THINK 1600 IN THE SEVEN IN THE SIXTIES AND THEN 2200 IN THE SEVENTIES AND THEN WE BUILT 300 UNITS IN THE EARLY 1980S AND FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS WE HAVEN'T BUILT ANY NET NEW PUBLIC HOUSING UNITS.  WE'VE ONLY REDEVELOPED EXISTING ONES AND AS I SAID OFTEN AT A UNIT LOSS.  SO THAT'S 40 YEARS OF NOT BEING IN THIS BUSINESS.  BUT I LIKE TO REMIND FOLKS THAT THAT'S STILL 50 YEARS WHERE WE WERE. SO IN FACT, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A MAJORITY OF OUR TIME THAT WE DID THIS AND SO WE WANT TO WE WANT TO BE DOING THIS AGAIN.  BUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT DOING IT AGAIN, WE DO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST 21ST CENTURY HOUSING FOR OUR RESIDENTS AND IT REALLY IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE IN MIXED INCOME COMMUNITIES.  AND YOU KNOW, WE ONE OF THE EXCITING THINGS ABOUT THESE FAIRCLOTH UNITS IS THAT THEY COULD BE USED IN A VARIETY OF WAYS. WE CAN MIX THEM IN TO YOU KNOW, WE COULD CONNECT THEM TO IDP, WE COULD BUILD NEW BUILDINGS ON SITE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT TRANCHES OF INCOME THAT ARE ABOVE PUBLIC HOUSING TO COMBINE WITH THE PUBLIC HOUSING SO WE CAN DO AND WE CAN STILL BUILD 100% PUBLIC HOUSING AFFORDABLE BUILDINGS WE OFTEN SEE WITH SUPPORTIVE HOUSING, WITH SENIOR HOUSING THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN POPULATIONS WHERE BECAUSE THERE'S A NEED FOR CONCENTRATED SERVICES IT DOES MAKE SENSE TO DO A 100% AFFORDABLE HOUSING, RIGHT? SO WE KNOW THERE'S ALWAYS STILL GOING TO BE 100% AFFORDABLE HOUSING THAT WE'RE WANTING TO DEVELOP BUT WE THINK THAT THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO MIXED INCOME COMMUNITIES IN BOSTON IS REALLY IMPORTANT. WE HAVE AS COUNSELOR SANTANA ALLUDED TO A COUPLE OF BIG REDEVELOPMENT PROJECTS THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW THAT KIND OF INCLUDE PART OF THIS PROMISE. SO THE CHARLESTOWN AND MARY ELLEN MCCORMICK PROJECTS ARE A PARTNERSHIP WITH PRIVATE PARTNERS.  IT'S WIND DEVELOPMENT AT MARY ELLEN MCCORMICK AND LEGGETT MCCALL AND CORCORAN AT CHARLESTOWN BUNKER HILL AND BOTH OF THOSE ARE CASES WHERE WE'RE ADDING ABOUT YOU KNOW, WE'RE REPLACING THE 1100 OR CHARLESTOWN 1000 AT MARY ELLEN PUBLIC HOUSING UNITS 141 AND THEN WE'RE ADDING KIND OF TWICE AGAIN IT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT EACH SITE BUT TWICE AGAIN AS MUCH DENSITY OF MARKET HOUSING. WE'RE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THOSE PARTNERSHIPS. WE HAVE GREAT PARTNERS THERE AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE LEARNED ALONG THE WAY COMPARED TO SOME OF THE PUBLIC PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS IN THE PAST IS THAT WE HAVE A PUBLIC OWNERSHIP STAKE IN THOSE DEALS THAT CONTINUES NOT JUST IN TERMS OF CONTROL IN A 99 YEAR LEASE BUT ACTUALLY SOME PUBLIC INCOME VALUE SHARE THAT COMES THROUGH THE GROUND LEASES IN THOSE PROJECTS. SO THAT THERE WILL BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PUBLIC TO HAVE SOME RESOURCES RETURN FROM THE FROM THE PROFIT OF THE MARKET INCOME SIDE. BUT THOSE ARE STILL NOT SOCIAL HOUSING BECAUSE THE BUILDINGS THEMSELVES AS WE COMPLETE THOSE DEALS THE WAY THAT THEY WERE CRAFTED TEN YEARS AGO, THOSE BUILDINGS WILL BE PRIVATELY OWNED RIGHT.  AND SO WE'LL PASS PUBLIC SUBSIDY THROUGH WILL OWN THE LAND LIKE I SAID, IT'S NOT YOUR GRANDFATHER'S GROUND. LIZ THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC FINANCIAL INTEREST IN THOSE GROUND LEASES BUT IT ISN'T IT ISN'T PUBLIC OWNERSHIP. AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WHAT THE FOLKS IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND OTHER PLACES HAVE REALLY POINTED OUT TO ALL OF US IS THAT THERE IS A REAL BENEFIT TO ONGOING MAJORITY PUBLIC CONTROL OF HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE MIXED INCOME. AND IT'S REALLY TWOFOLD ONE HAS TO DO WITH POLICY. SO FOR INSTANCE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY ALL VOLUNTARILY THE BUILDINGS THAT IT OWNS AND AND I'M NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN THE WHOLE MECHANISM BECAUSE I KNOW PAUL WILLIAMS IS ON THE CALL AND HE'S GREAT AT THAT. SO I WILL LEAVE THE DETAILS OF THE MONTGOMERY MECHANISM TO PAUL WHEN HE PRESENTS. BUT BASICALLY THE GIST OF IT IS THAT THEY REPLACE THE EQUITY STAKE IN THESE IN THESE HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS AND SO THEY END UP AS THE MAJORITY OWNER OF THEM EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE MAJORITY MARKET MIXED INCOME DEVELOPMENTS. AND ONE THING IS THAT THOSE BUILDINGS EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE MARKET UNITS THEY VOLUNTARILY FOLLOW THE THE LIKE KIND OF THEY DON'T HAVE RENT CONTROL IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY BUT THEY HAVE A SUGGESTED RENT GUIDELINE. SO THEY BASICALLY SAY LOOK, EVEN OUR MARKET PEOPLE WERE ONLY GOING TO RAISE THE RENT THIS MUCH ON THEM YEAR ON YEAR . RIGHT. WHICH IS JUST A MORE HUMANE WAY TO RUN A COMMUNITY EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING MARKET RENT BECAUSE WE WANT STABILITY AT ALL INCOME LEVELS. THE OTHER THING IS THAT NOT CHASING THE SAME PROFITS AS THE PRIVATE SIDE BETTER ENABLES YOU TO CREATE THAT MIDDLE INCOME TRANCHE THAT I THINK WE'RE ALL REALLY MISSING IN THAT CITY. SO EVEN OUR DEALS RIGHT THAT THE MARY ELLEN MCCORMACK AND THE CHARLESTOWN ONES CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE A MIDDLE INCOME TRANCHE AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT BOTH WE AND THE PARTNERS HAVE REALLY WANTED TO SEE LIKE WE'VE BEEN REALLY EAGER TO HAVE THAT BUT IT'S SO EXPENSIVE TO CREATE AND THIS IS VERY COUNTERINTUITIVE BUT BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL SUBSIDY IT IS WAY MORE FINANCEABLE FOR ME TO CREATE A NEW PUBLIC HOUSING UNIT BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL BACK IT WITH THAN IT IS TO CREATE A NEW MIDDLE INCOME UNIT BECAUSE IT FALLS INTO THIS HOLE WHERE IT'S NEITHER COMMANDING THE MARKET RENTS NOR IS IT RECEIVING THAT FEDERAL GUARANTEED SUBSIDY. AND SO IRONICALLY AND THIS OFTEN CONFUSES PEOPLE IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE TO CREATE THAT LAKE UNIT IN TERMS OF THE GAP THAT YOU HAVE TO FILL AND SO YOU KNOW THE ISSUE THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T SEE THOSE MIDDLE INCOME UNITS GETTING CREATED . AND I THINK THAT A REALLY INTERESTING THING THAT YOU CAN DO POTENTIALLY WITH THE ADDITIONAL VALUE THAT YOU CAN CAPTURE BY NOT NEEDING THE SAME PROFITABILITY IF IT'S PUBLIC MONEY PROVIDING THE EQUITY STAKE IS YOU CAN DO THESE PROGRAMMATIC THINGS LIKE SOME HUMANITY IN YOUR RENTAL TENANCY POLICIES EVEN FOR THE MARKET FOLKS AND THEN INCLUDING A MIDDLE INCOME TRANCHE THE OTHER CORE REASON WHY SOCIAL HOUSING THAT HAS A MAJORITY PUBLIC FINANCIAL STAKE MAKES SENSE IS BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY CREATES A PUBLIC ENGINE FOR HOUSING PRODUCTION WHICH WE HAVE CONTROL OF AND WHICH CAN LIKE CONTINUE TO REPRODUCE ITSELF.  WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THIS RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY AND CERTAINLY THIS IS TRUE IN HIGH COST CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY WE ARE TRAPPED IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO STIMULATE MARKET HOUSING PRODUCTION. RIGHT. AND IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION AND THERE'S LOTS OF DISCUSSIONS ABOUT YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN YOU STREAMLINE WHETHER IT'S PROCESSES LIKE, YOU KNOW, ZONING YOUR PERMITTING, HOW DO YOU HAVE TAX ABATEMENTS? RIGHT. THERE'S ALL KINDS OF CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT. BUT ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE JUST ABOUT CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT TO TRY TO MAKE IT A BIT MORE FAVORABLE AND THEN WAITING FOR PRIVATE CAPITAL TO COME AND TO DEVELOP HOUSING.  AND THE CHALLENGE THAT WE'RE ALL FACING IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE INTEREST RATE SURGE SITUATION IN THE COUNTRY, MONEY IS STAYING ON THE SIDELINES AND MONEY STAYING ON THE SIDELINES BECAUSE IT'S LIKE YOU CAN MAKE SO MUCH OFF OF TREASURY BONDS THAT TO TAKE THE RISK INHERENT IN REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT YOU HAVE TO BE MAKING A TON RIGHT? SO WHEN YOU HAVE AND THEN PEOPLE JUST LOOK AT THESE DEALS AND THEY SAY WELL I CAN'T MAKE 25% PROFIT, IT'S EASY TO BE LIKE OH WELL YOU CAN MAKE 10% PROFIT. THAT'S A GOOD PROFIT.  IT'S LIKE WELL NOT FOR THE AMOUNT OF WORK AND RISK THAT REAL ESTATE TAKES. AND SO THAT'S THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE IN IS THAT WE'RE IN THIS BIZARRE THING WHERE IT'S NOT THAT HOUSING PRODUCTION ISN'T PROFITABLE, IT'S THAT HOUSING PRODUCTION ISN'T PROFITABLE ENOUGH FOR THE BENCHMARK OF THESE REAL ESTATE INVESTMENT TRUSTS THAT INCREASINGLY PROVIDE THE EQUITY STAKE IN THE MARKET HOUSING DEVELOPMENT AND SO WE'RE STUCK IN THIS BIND WHERE THE CAPITAL MARKETS CAN JUST STAY ON THE SIDELINES AND WE CAN LIKE DO THESE THINGS AROUND THE EDGES TO TRY TO MAKE THE ATMOSPHERE MORE OR LESS CONGENIAL. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY THOSE THINGS AREN'T MOVING THE NEEDLE. I THINK ONE OF THE ACTUAL POLICY FRUSTRATIONS WE'VE HAD RECENTLY IS THAT PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF LITTLE THINGS AROUND THE EDGES, YOU KNOW, OH WELL IS IS HAVING HIGHER ENERGY STANDARDS FOR THESE BUILDINGS DISCOURAGING THEM FROM BEING BUILT? WELL, IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE AND WE HAVE I HAVE BECAUSE WE'RE BUILDING RIGHT THERE WE HAVE BASICALLY MARKET BUILDINGS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AT CHARLES TOWN AND MARY ELLEN AND YOU SAY HEY, WHAT'S THE DELTA ON HOW MUCH THIS IS COSTING ME ? AND THE REALITY IS IT'S BEEN A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF BASIS POINTS COMPARED TO THE HUNDREDS OF BASIS POINTS THAT MARKET HOUSING DEALS ARE UNDERWATER RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE INTEREST RATE SPREADS. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY LIKE THE INTEREST RATE SITUATION IS THE REASON THAT WE'RE NOT SEEING THE PRODUCTION OF NEW PRIVATE HOUSING RIGHT NOW. NOW THE THING IS THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE JUST ALLOW TO BE GOVERNED BY A BOOM BUST CYCLE, RIGHT? LIKE YOU KNOW, WHETHER SOMEBODY WANTS TO OFFER LIKE SUDDENLY ALL THESE SARNIES HAVE POPPED UP RIGHT THAT LIKE SOMEBODY HAS DECIDED THERE'S A MARKET FOR SARNIES FOR PEOPLE TO VISIT JUMPING FOOLS AROUND THAT'S GREAT. THAT'S AWESOME. NOTHING GOES THAT WRONG IF THE SAUNA CYCLE THEN TAKES A BUST RATE.  BUT HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT. IT'S A PUBLIC GOOD.  IT'S A THING THAT PEOPLE NEED AND SO TO HAVE THIS CRITICAL NEED FOR OUR FOLKS BE DEPENDENT ON THIS BOOM BUST CYCLE THAT WE CAN'T CONTROL AND THAT WE CAN JUST KIND OF TRY TO PUT SOME INCENTIVES ON THE TABLE TO ENCOURAGE IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN BOSTON IS IT'S A TOTALLY LIKE ON SUSTAINABLE AND ON ACCEPTABLE REALITY AND THAT AND THAT'S REALLY WHY WE WANT TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT SOCIAL HOUSING BECAUSE THE BENEFIT IS THAT THE PUBLIC SIDE PUTS THE EQUITY AND DEVELOPS THE HOUSING AND THEN BECAUSE IT IS PROFITABLE JUST NOT AT THE RATES THAT THE CAPITAL MARKETS WANT GETS ITS MONEY BACK. RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK YOU CAN THEN PUT IT INTO THE NEXT HOUSING PRODUCTION DEAL. SO IT'S NOT ABOUT MAKING MONEY FOR THE CITY OR THE STATE OR WHATEVER THE PUBLIC ENTITY IS BUT IT IS ABOUT A REVOLVING FUND WHICH THEN ALLOWS YOU TO NOT DEPEND ON AN ENGINE THAT FOR INSTANCE RIGHT NOW IS JUST STALLING OUT.  SO I THINK THAT WE TO ME THERE'S NOTHING MORE DISCOURAGING THAN HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE PRIVATE MARKET ENGINE AND ASKING WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL GET IT GOING AGAIN IF RATES DON'T COME DOWN AND HAVING FOLKS IN THE INDUSTRY SAY WELL IF RENTS GO HIGH ENOUGH LIKE THAT'LL INCENT US TO COME BACK IN AGAIN, RIGHT BECAUSE IT'S LIKE OH OKAY. SO WHEN RENTS ARE AT 5000 A MONTH YOU'LL PRODUCE A LITTLE BIT OF HOUSING AND THEN WHEN THEY'RE DOWN AT 4500 A MONTH THE ENGINE WILL STOP AGAIN LIKE THAT'S NOT AN ACCEPTABLE REALITY FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON. AND SO I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY YOU KNOW, RECOGNIZING THAT IT WOULD BE GOOD TO GET HOUSING OUT OF A BOOM BUST CYCLE BOTH FOR HUMANE LIKE REASONS THAT PEOPLE NEED HOUSING TO LIVE AND THRIVE AND ALSO FOR LIKE FUNDAMENTAL EVEN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REASONS THAT HOUSING IS ALSO THE BASIS ON WHICH PEOPLE DO EVERYTHING ELSE THAT MAKES OUR CITY A FLOURISHING PLACE TO BE THAT WE REALLY HAVE TO TAKE A HARD LOOK AT AND WHAT MONTGOMERY AND OTHERS ARE DOING.  SO YOU KNOW WE'RE AT SHEILA MENTIONED AT THE START PIAGET DOES HAVE YOU KNOW WE HAVE LAND WE ALSO HAVE THESE I THINK WHAT'S CRITICAL FOR US IS THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE 3000 COFFEE UNITS WE KNOW THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT MIXED INCOME HOUSING PRODUCTION THAT WOULDN'T HAVE A REALLY SUBSTANTIAL LOW INCOME TRANCHE BECAUSE WE KNOW WE HAVE THE RESOURCES TO PUT THE LOW INCOME TRANCHE INTO ANYTHING THAT WE DO. SO WE FEEL REALLY GOOD ABOUT THAT FROM A KIND OF OVERALL SOCIAL INCLUSION PERSPECTIVE AND SO YOU KNOW, IT'S A DIFFERENT MODEL. I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PAUL TALK ABOUT IT. I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT IT BUT HE'S LIKE I SAID REALLY THE EXPERT. BUT I WILL JUST SAY THAT WE HAVE A BOSTON HOUSING AUTHORITY AND SOME OF SHEILA'S STAFF. WE WENT DOWN AND VISITED MONTGOMERY IN NOVEMBER. WE'VE BEEN IN CONVERSATION WITH THE FOLKS WHO ARE WORKING ON THIS AND DOWN THERE BUT ALSO IN ATLANTA, IN NEW YORK, IN RHODE ISLAND SOME FOLKS LOOKING AT IT OUT IN CALIFORNIA, CHICAGO.  SO YOU KNOW, THERE'S REALLY A EMERGING COMMUNITY OF PRACTICE AROUND THIS AND IT'S THE PERFECT TIME TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.  THANK YOU, KINSEY. AND JUST TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU'VE BEEN JOINED BY COUNCILOR DIVISION COUNCIL PRESIDENT LOUIJEUNE CITY COUNCILOR AT LARGE AND COMES FROM HERE WHO'S ALSO CITY COUNCILOR AT LARGE.  SO PAUL IS IT PAUL YES. I'D ALSO LIKE TO WELCOME PAUL WILLIAMS WHO'S THE FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISE AND NEW YORK VIRTUAL TESTIMONY. SO PAUL, WELCOME AND THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING THIS MORNING. YES, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME COUNCILORS REALLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS WORK.  SO MY NAME IS PAUL WILLIAMS. I'M THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AT THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISE. WE'RE A SMALL NONPROFIT THINK TANK AND WE ALSO PROVIDE KIND OF PRO-BONO TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO HOUSING AUTHORITIES STATE HOUSING FINANCE AGENCIES AND OTHER PUBLIC AGENCIES THAT WORK IN THE HOUSING SECTOR AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND ONE OF THE TOOLS THAT WE WORK MOST CLOSELY WITH IS THIS KIND OF EMERGING CLASS OF MIXED INCOME PUBLIC DEVELOPMENT OR SOCIAL HOUSING MODELS THAT THAT HOUSING AUTHORITIES AND HOUSING FINANCE AGENCIES ARE ARE INCREASINGLY MOVING TOWARD AS A AS A INNOVATIVE WAY TO INCREASE HOUSING PRODUCTION AND INCREASE PUBLIC AND SOCIAL OWNERSHIP OF NEW THE CONSTRUCTED HOUSING SO I'LL START WITH THE KIND OF STORY OF HOW MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S HOUSING PRODUCTION FUND WHICH IS THEIR TOOL HOW IT CAME ABOUT BECAUSE I THINK THE STORY OF HOW IT CAME ABOUT REVEALS A LOT ABOUT WHAT THE BENEFITS ARE SO ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S HOUSING AUTHORITY CALLED THE HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES COMMISSION OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY, THEY WERE BUILDING A A VERY CONVENTIONAL MIXED INCOME PROJECT, SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE OFTEN DONE WITH BOND VOLUME AND I KNOW MASS HOUSING FINANCE IS ONE OF THE DEALS THAT LIKE THIS CALLED A20 DEAL WHERE THERE'S A PRIVATE PARTNER THAT HAS THE MAJORITY STAKE IN THAT IT'S 80% MARKET RATE AND 22% AFFORDABLE AT 50% AND MY AND THESE ARE JUST YOU KNOW, THESE ARE DEALS THAT PRIVATE DEVELOPERS,  HOUSING AUTHORITIES ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE DO THEY'RE LESS COMMON THAN THEY USED TO BE IN THE NINETIES AND EARLY 2000S BUT THEY STILL HAPPEN. SO ANYWAY THIS PROJECT WAS GETTING BUILT THERE'S A PRIVATE EQUITY PARTNER WHO INVESTED IN THE PROJECT. IT WAS A LARGE YOU KNOW, SEVERAL HUNDRED UNITS WHICH MEANT THERE WERE YOU KNOW 100 IT'S LIKE 300 UNITS AND DELIVER 100 AFFORDABLE UNITS AND THEY BUILT THAT PROJECT.  IT GOT COMPLETED AND THEN THEY AS HOUSING DEVELOPERS DO THEY REFINANCED PROJECT AT COMPLETION ONCE THE PROJECT HAD BEEN LEASED UP AND FILLED WITH RESIDENTS AND THE THE VALUE OF THE BUILDING HAD APPRECIATED BY SOMETHING LIKE 80% IN THE PERIOD BETWEEN BEGINNING OF CONSTRUCTION AND COMPLETION. SO THEY REALIZED THERE WAS A LOT OF REALIZED GROWTH IN THAT SHORT PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE OF THE AGREEMENT THEY HAD WITH THE PRIVATE EQUITY PARTNER WHO PROVIDED ALL OF THE GAP FINANCE THE PRIVATE EQUITY PARTNER WALKS AWAY MEANING THEY WALKED AWAY WITH THE MONEY.  YOU KNOW THERE'S STILL A SPLIT OWNERSHIP SITUATION AND SO ON BUT THEY HAD TO SPLIT ALL OF THOSE GROWTH EARNINGS WITH THIS PRIVATE PARTNER AND REALLY WHAT HAPPENED IS THEY THOUGHT TO THEMSELVES WELL I DON'T LIKE THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS PROJECT I BROUGHT THE LAND I BROUGHT THE SENIOR DEBT, I DESIGNED IT. I HAD THE ARCHITECTS AND ENGINEERS THESE PEOPLE JUST CAME IN AT THE LAST MINUTE PROVIDED EQUITY AND NOW ARE JUST WALKING AWAY WITH EVERYTHING. SO THE QUESTION WAS HOW CAN I PUT MYSELF IN A POSITION WHERE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN? HOW CAN I PUT MYSELF IN A POSITION WHERE AS A PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY AND HOUSING FINANCE AGENCY I'M ABLE TO NOT ONLY HAVE THE KIND CONTROL OVER THE DEVELOPMENT LIKE I DID HERE BUT ALSO NOT HAVE THE NEED TO RELY ON THESE ADDITIONAL INVESTORS.  WHO CAN YOU KNOW WHO ARE GOING TO HAVE A CLAIM ON ANY RETURNS THAT I NEED THAT ANY BUILDING GENERATES. AND SO WHAT THEY DID IS THEY CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA FOR A HOUSING PRODUCTION FUND AND WHAT IT IS IS A FUND BUT SITS AT THE HOUSING AUTHORITY AND THEY USE IT TO MAKE SHORT TERM LOANS VERY SHORT TERM LOANS LIKE THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE YEARS INTO MIXED INCOME PROJECTS THAT THEY'RE BUILDING AND THEY'RE ONLY LOANING IN FOR THE CONSTRUCTION PERIOD OF THE PROJECT AND THEY'RE LOANING IN AT A YOU KNOW, VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF THE TOTAL CONSTRUCTION COST TO SO FOR EXAMPLE SO YOU HAVE A $100 MILLION PROJECT YOU CAN GO GET A SENIOR LOAN, A MORTGAGE FOR 50, 60, $70 MILLION. THE GAP FINANCE IS WHAT IS THE PIECE THAT YOU NEED TO FILL? SO YOU KNOW IN A CONVENTIONAL AFFORDABLE PROJECT YOU FILL THAT GAP WITH LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDITS IN A CONVENTIONAL PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT YOU'LL FILL THAT GAP WITH PRIVATE EQUITY AND MAYBE SOME SUBORDINATE DEBT.  AND WHAT THEY CAME UP WITH IS IN MY MIXED INCOME PUBLIC DEVELOPMENTS I'LL FILL THAT GAP WITH A SHORT TERM CONSTRUCTION LOAN FROM MY REVOLVING FUND SO THEY COMPLETELY PULLED OUT THE PRIVATE EQUITY THAT'S NEEDED FOR THESE PROJECTS.  SO THEN THEY GO BUILD THE PROJECT WITH THIS KIND OF NEW VERY SIMPLE CAPITAL STACK AND THEN AT COMPLETION THEY PULL THE THE REVOLVING LOAN FUND INVESTMENT OUT OF THE DEAL AND PUT IT BACK IN THE BUCKET SO THAT MONEY COMES BACK IN THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE YEARS LATER AND IT'S READY TO GO OUT INTO ANOTHER DEAL YOU KNOW, AS SOON AS THE NEXT DAY.  AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL ABOUT THIS IS IT'S REALLY LIKE A A KIND OF SMALL INTERNAL INVESTMENT FUND THAT YOU CAN JUST KEEP TURNING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND AS LONG AS IT GENERATES, YOU KNOW, A FEW PERCENT RETURN TO STAY ABOVE INFLATION THAT FUND WILL EXIST IN PERPETUITY. YOU JUST HAVE A KIND OF PERMANENT INVESTMENT FUND AS LONG AS YOU USE IT IN THIS KIND OF IN THIS KIND OF WAY.  AND SO WHAT THAT ALLOWS THEM TO DO IS GENERATE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF AFFORDABILITY IN THESE BUILDINGS BECAUSE THEY'VE LOWERED CAPITAL COSTS SO MUCH AND THEY ARE GETTING THIS THEY'RE GETTING GOOD LEVELS OF AFFORDABILITY WITHOUT USING ANY LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDITS AND B BOND VOLUME CAP ANY HOUSING CHOICE VOUCHERS, PROJECT BASED VOUCHERS, ANY FEDERAL SUBSIDY AT ALL AND WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THAT THE FEDERAL SUBSIDIES ABOUT FEDERAL SUBSIDIES ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY GOOD BUT THE ISSUE THAT PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITIES AND HOUSING FINANCE AGENCY IS FACE IN GENERAL IS THAT EVERY ONE OF THEM USES EVERY DOLLAR THAT THEY GET FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT YEAR NOBODY DOESN'T USE THAT MONEY. EVERY ONE OF THESE AGENCIES USES EVERY DOLLAR THAT THEY GET AND IT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH.  AND SO MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S PERSPECTIVE IS ANY TOOL THAT I CAN CREATE TO GENERATE ADDITIONAL AFFORDABLE UNIT PRODUCTION ON TOP OF WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PAYS FOR IS A NET WIN WIN WIN FOR EVERYBODY . SO WHY DON'T I JUST LEAVE IT? THAT'S JUST TO LAY OUT THE GENERAL FRAMEWORK LIKE THAT AND THEN I AND IT WOULD BE BETTER TO ANSWER QUESTIONS IF THAT'S MORE OF WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'LL SAY IS IS THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST AND UPTAKE FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS IN THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE SEEN THE BENEFIT OF THIS MODEL.  AND YOU KNOW, FOLKS ARE KIND OF FOLDING THIS KIND OF PROGRAM INTO HOUSING AUTHORITIES AND INTO HOUSING FINANCE AGENCIES AND ALSO INTO JUST KIND OF MUNICIPAL OTHER MUNICIPAL AGENCIES.  SO IT'S REALLY EXCITING TO HEAR THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS INTERESTED IN EXPLORING AND I WOULD LOVE TO YOU YOU KNOW, SHARE WHAT I KNOW ABOUT HOW THE MODEL WORKS AND HELP YOU ALL THINK THROUGH WHETHER IT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD WORK FOR BOSTON.  THANK YOU. THANK YOU, PAUL.  I THINK WE'LL OPEN IT UP FOR QUESTIONS AND COUNCILOR AND SANTANA AND ALSO I DIDN'T ASK MY COLLEAGUES TO SIT IN THE OPENING STATEMENT YOU DO YOU WANT TO SAY A FEW WORDS? OKAY. JUST GO STRAIGHT TO QUESTIONS. YEAH. YEAH. VERY GOOD QUESTION. SANTANA, DO YOU HAVE SOME QUESTION FOR THE PANEL AND THEN I'LL OPEN IT UP TO EVERYONE ELSE SO THANK YOU CHAIR AND THANK YOU ADMINISTRATOR BROCK AND CHIEF DILLARD AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR WILLIAMS I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS.  I'M GOING TO TRY TO DIRECT THEM OUT WHERE I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GO BUT FEEL FREE TO JUMP IN IF IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD. I'LL START WITH YOU DIRECTOR WILLIAMS.  A LOT OF HOUSING UNITS GET PROMOTED BUT DON'T USUALLY ACTUALLY MOVE FORWARD TO CONSTRUCTION BECAUSE OF FINANCING CHALLENGES.  WE HEARD THAT TOO FROM ADMINISTRATOR BOURQUE AND CHIEF DILLON IN THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS THE FIRST MONTGOMERY COUNTY PROJECT MANAGER TAKE A STAFF PROJECT LIKE THAT AND NOT ONLY GET THE PROJECT BUILT BUT ACTUALLY ALSO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF AFFORDABLE UNITS FROM SOMETHING LIKE 10% IN THE ORIGINAL PLAN TO AROUND 33% OF AFFORDABLE UNITS WHILE MORE MADE IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE FORWARD ON A SOLID PROJECT WHILE ALSO CREATING MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. YEAH GREAT QUESTION AND YOU KNOW I WILL SAY I THERE'S A BOSTON GLOBE ARTICLE THAT I, I READ I DON'T KNOW FOUR MONTHS AGO FIVE MONTHS AGO THAT MENTIONED THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 20 PLUS THOUSAND APARTMENT UNITS IN BOSTON THAT ARE PERMITTED BUT HAVE NOT YET STARTED CONSTRUCTION. SO I KNOW THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT THAT IS THE CASE IN BOSTON AND OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PLACES THERE ARE KIND OF PERMITTING AND ZONING ISSUES THAT THAT PREVENTS SOME UNITS FROM FROM BEING STARTED. BUT EVEN FOR UNITS THAT PASS THAT THRESHOLD THAT GET THROUGH ZONING AND PERMITTING FINANCING THEN BECOMES THE NEXT ISSUE,  RIGHT IF YOU'RE PERMITTED BUT YOU CAN'T GET FINANCED THAT'S YOU KNOW IT'S STILL NOT A HOUSING UNIT.  SO YES. SO THE FIRST PROJECT THAT MONTGOMERY COUNTY BUILT WITH THIS FUND THERE WAS A 270 UNIT PROJECT THAT HAD BEEN PROPOSED SPUN, YOU KNOW, TWO BLOCKS FROM A METRO STATION.  IT HAD DONE ALL OF THE ARCHITECTURE ENGINEERING SITE PLANNING. IT WAS ENTITLED THEY WERE READY TO DRAW PERMITS BUT THEY COULDN'T GET A PRIVATE EQUITY INVESTOR TO FILL THAT FINANCING GAP AND SO THEY WERE JUST SITTING THERE ON A PILE OF DIRT AND SO MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S HOUSING AUTHORITY HAD, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL MONTHS PRIOR CREATED THEIR NEW HOUSING PRODUCTION FUND AND SO THEY ESSENTIALLY CALLED UP THAT DEVELOPER. SO THEY HEARD ABOUT THE PROJECT AND SAID LOOK, I HAVE THIS NEW HOUSING PRODUCTION FUND. I WOULD THIS LOOKS LIKE AN INTERESTING DEAL HERE WOULD BE THE TERMS IF I AM IF I BUY THIS DEAL OUT FROM YOU. RIGHT AND THEY SAID HERE'S THE AFFORDABILITY WHAT IT'S GOING TO BE BECAUSE I'M GOING TO HAVE THE MAJORITY OWNERSHIP STAKE BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE MY BUILDING YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY GOING TO BE A TURNKEY DEVELOPER FOR ME , RIGHT? I MEAN HOW ARE YOU TO BUILD IT? YOU CAN GO YOU KNOW, DO THE CONSTRUCTION WORK BUT THIS IS GOING TO BE MY BUILDING AND HERE'S WHAT I BRING TO THE TABLE. I HAVE THIS HOUSING PRODUCTION FUND, THIS THIS CAPITAL THAT IS MUCH, MUCH LOWER COST THAN ANYTHING YOU'RE GOING TO GET FROM A PRIVATE EQUITY INVESTOR . RIGHT. I'LL MAKE THIS I'LL MAKE THIS CONSTRUCTION BRIDGE LOAN AT 5% INTEREST INSTEAD OF , YOU KNOW, 15 18% INTERNAL RATE OF RETURN AND THE PRIVATE DEVELOPER WAS LIKE OH MY GOODNESS, YES, I WOULD LOVE THAT. RIGHT BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST SITTING THERE ON A PILE OF DIRT WITH NOBODY WHO WANTS TO BUY IT AND THE PROJECT GOT BUILT AND KNOW THERE'S NOW ALL THE SUPPORT ABILITY AND THERE'S YOU KNOW YOU ASKED HOW WERE THEY ABLE TO GET IT BUILT AND GENERATED AFFORDABILITY? WELL THEY THEY TOOK WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST EXPENSIVE PIECE OF CAPITAL WITH THE HIGHEST RATE OF RETURN REQUIRED IN A DEAL PULLED IT OUT AND REPLACED IT WITH SOMETHING WITH A PUBLIC FINANCING TOOL THAT THEY HAD CREATED . AND SO WHEN YOU DO THAT YOU SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THE COST OF OF CAPITAL AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT THERE'S THERE'S A METRIC IN THAT'S USED IN ALL HOUSING PRODUCTION AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING PRODUCTION CALLED THE DEBT COVERAGE RATIO OR DEBT SERVICE COVERAGE RATIO AND THAT'S BASICALLY JUST A MEASURE OF OF HOW MUCH YOU KNOW, EVERY YEAR YOU HAVE AN ANNUAL YOU HAVE AN ANNUAL MORTGAGE PAYMENT, YOUR MONTHLY MORTGAGE PAYMENT, ANNUAL MORTGAGE PAYMENT ON YOUR BUILDING AND DEBT SERVICE COVERAGE RATIO IS WHAT PERCENT OF YOUR MORTGAGE PAYMENTS IS COVERED BY YOUR INCOME. RIGHT. AND AND SO IN A VERY CONVENTIONAL, YOU KNOW, LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT PROJECT IT MIGHT BE 1.11.15 SO 110 115% SO YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THAT MUCH ROOM OVER YOUR OVER YOUR MORTGAGE COSTS.  YOU'RE NOT MAKING THAT MUCH MONEY ON IT. RIGHT. YOU'RE BARELY MAKING IT ENOUGH TO EVEN PUT INTO YOUR RAINY DAY FUND THAT YOU NEED FOR A BUILDING.  BUT IN A CONVENTIONAL PRIVATE DEAL YOU MIGHT HAVE DEBT SERVICE COVERAGE RATIOS THAT ARE ABOVE 200% RIGHT. YOU'RE MAKING DOUBLE WHAT YOU'RE PAYING ON YOUR MORTGAGE ,YOUR YOUR REGULAR DEBT. AND SO WHAT MONTGOMERY COUNTY REALLY DOES AND THE WAY TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY GET AFFORDABILITY OF THESE PROJECTS IS THEY TAKE A PRIVATE DEAL THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 200, YOU KNOW, 2.0 DEBT COVERAGE RATIO AND THEN YOU KNOW, YOU JUST LOOK AT ALL THE UNITS AND YOU SAY OKAY, THESE ARE ALL MARKET THESE ARE ALL MARKET AND THEY JUST START PLUGGING IN UNITS AS AFFORDABLE AND EVERY TIME YOU PLUG IN AN AFFORDABLE UNIT YOUR DEBT COVERAGE RATIO COMES DOWN A LITTLE BIT, RIGHT? BECAUSE YOU'RE TAKING A LITTLE BIT OF A LOSS ON ON YOUR AFFORDABLE UNITS AND THEY JUST KEEP PLUGGING AFFORDABLE UNITS IN UNTIL THE DEBT COVERAGE RATIO COMES DOWN TO A HEALTHY SUSTAINABLE LEVEL AND FOR THEM THAT'S LIKE 1.25 1.3 AND AND REALLY WHAT IT ALLOWS IS IT ALLOWS YOU TO OWN ANY PROJECT FIND IDENTIFY THE MAXIMUM AFFORDABILITY THAT YOU CAN GET IN THAT PROJECT THAT STILL ALLOWS YOU TO PAY YOUR MORTGAGE AND THIS IS YOU KNOW I THINK SOMETHING THAT CITIES HAVE COME UP WITH WHEN WHEN DOING INCLUSIONARY ZONING PROGRAMS IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF AFFORDABILITY THAT I CAN GET ON A PROJECT WHAT WHERE SHOULD I WHERE SHOULD I PUT THE BAR RIGHT. IS IT 15%, 20%, 25% HOW MUCH AFFORDABILITY CAN I GET IN THESE DEALS? THE YOU KNOW, AN ISSUE OBVIOUSLY IS THAT WELL THE AMOUNT THAT WILL WORK ON ANY GIVEN PROJECT DEPENDS ON CHANGES FROM DAY TODAY WITH INTEREST RATES AND LAND COSTS AND ALL OF THESE THINGS.  BUT IT'S IT'S NOT A STATIC THING. IT'S LIKE A VERY FLUID THING AND WITH A PROGRAM LIKE THIS YOU ARE A MARKET ACTOR AND YOU CAN JUST FLUIDLY IDENTIFY THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF AFFORDABILITY THAT STILL ALLOWS YOU TO COVER YOUR COSTS ON EVERY PROJECT THAT YOU ENTER, RIGHT? SO IT'S LIKE A YOU CAN KIND OF THINK OF THAT AS LIKE AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT INCLUSIONARY ZONING PROGRAM.  YOU JUST GO IN, YOU JUST ENTER THE DEALS YOURSELF AND YOU GET THE AFFORDABILITY YOURSELF.  AND SO THAT'S ALSO THAT'S THAT'S ONE KIND OF PROJECT PIPELINE RIGHT? IS THEY LOOK FOR PROJECTS IN THEIR AREA THAT THAT COULD THAT ARE STALLED AND THAT THEY COULD ESSENTIALLY TAKE OVER RIGHT THE OTHER PROJECT PIPELINE IS THEIR PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY THEY OWN LAND THEY DO RFP DEVELOPMENT JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE. RIGHT. PLAYED A PARTNERSHIP WITH THE WASHINGTON METRO TRANSIT AUTHORITY RAMADA THAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT NOW. THAT'S JUST GOING TO BE A VERY CONVENTIONAL PUBLIC DEAL THAT'S NOT LIKE A MINE A PRIVATE PROJECT. SO JUST AS A YOU CAN DO BOTH OF THOSE THINGS CAN I CAN I CAN CROSS THE RIVER MINISTER QUESTIONS FOR KIDS ON ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY AND THANK YOU CONSULTANTS AND I'LL COME BACK TO YOU KNOW YOUR LEAD SPONSOR OUR COLLEAGUE CONSTABLE WEBER HAS HAS ASKED TO LEAVE SO WE HAD A QUESTION WOULD YOU LIKE TO COACH WEBER?  SURE. THANK YOU CHAIR BRAYTON AND THANK YOU COUNSELOR SANTANA FOR BRINGING THIS. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE, YOU KNOW, WAY TO SORT OF DEAL WITH A CRISIS HERE IN OUR CITY AND I SUPPORT IT. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS AS YOU ALLUDED TO THAT I THINK THIS DOVETAILS WITH MY MAIDEN SPEECH WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, PROVIDING COUNCILOR FOR PEOPLE IN EVICTION PROCEEDINGS AND IT'S A THIS IS A VERY INNOVATIVE THING AND I FULLY SUPPORT IT. MY QUESTIONS ARE PRETTY MUCH FOR ADMINISTRATOR BOK AND AND CHIEF DILLON.  SO CAN CAN WE DO THIS RIGHT NOW OR ARE THERE THINGS THAT NEED TO CHANGE WITH THE CITY AND IF WE CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW WHAT ARE THE OBSTACLES THAT WE HAVE UH, OTHER THAN WE HAVE SOME GREAT LISTENERS NOW SO FOR FOLKS AT HOME WE HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF YOUNG KIDS WHERE ARE WE FROM NEIGHBORHOOD, NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE, CHARTER SCHOOL IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD IN MATTER. HUNSAKER WELCOME.  GREAT. THESE ARE AN ACT OF CIVICALLY ENGAGED SCHOOL. WELL, WE'RE TRYING TO BUILDING HOUSING FOR FOR PEOPLE HERE IN THE CITY. SO I DON'T KNOW THE ADMINISTRATOR WHAT ARE WHAT ARE THE HURDLES? YOU KNOW, THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HERE OR AS WE GO FORWARD? YEAH. SO I THINK THAT SO THERE'S THERE'S NOTHING REGULATORY THAT PREVENTS US FROM DOING WHAT MONTGOMERY HAS DONE AND SO I THINK THAT'S GREAT BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT WE CAN DO IT AND THE BIGGEST HURDLE I THINK THERE'S TWO BIG HURDLES. ONE IS THAT THE WAY THAT THIS MODEL WORKS IS THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE REPLACING THE EQUITY STAKE OF THAT THE PRIVATE SIDE WOULD HAVE YOU NEED A BUNCH OF MONEY UPFRONT, RIGHT? AND YOU CAN'T THINK OF THAT MONEY IN OUR CONVENTIONAL WHERE WE THINK OH WE'RE SPENDING THIS MUCH PER UNIT ON GAP FILLING BECAUSE LIKE IT'S NOT ACTUALLY WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SPENDING LIKE THE REST OF OUR MONEY FOR HOUSING WE SPEND RIGHT WE SPEND A CERTAIN AMOUNT PER UNIT IT'S ACTUALLY A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT FOR DEEPLY AFFORDABLE UNITS AND THAT'S WHAT SHEILA'S SHOP TOO SPENDS A LOT OF TIME DOING IS IS GIVING THAT MONEY AWAY IN EXCHANGE FOR CREATING NEW AFFORDABLE UNITS RIGHT THIS MODEL IS ONE IN WHICH WE INVEST A STAKE AND THEN WE HAVE THE OWNERSHIP AND WE GET VALUE BACK. BUT IT MEANS THAT THE AMOUNT THAT YOU'RE PUTTING IN UPFRONT IS LIKE MORE THAN WE'RE USED TO, RIGHT? AND SO I THINK PEOPLE I THINK ONE THING IS IS JUST HAVING A CHUNK OF MONEY SO IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY WHAT PAUL TALKED ABOUT THE INITIALLY THE COUNTY APPROPRIATED $50 MILLION TO CREATE THIS REVOLVING FUND AND THEY'VE HAD SO MUCH SUCCESS WITH IT THAT THEY HAVE NOW DOUBLED THAT TO IT'S IN $100 MILLION REVOLVING FUND. SO THAT'S A REALLY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY. BUT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING IS THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO JUST KEEP REVOLVING IT AND GENERATING MORE AND MORE HOUSING PRODUCTION AND SO IT'S THIS INCREDIBLE ENGINE FOR THE COUNTY. BUT I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST THING IS THAT SOME PUBLIC ENTITY OUT OF THE CITY OR THE STATE OR WHATEVER HAS TO DECIDE HEY, WE'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE LEAP AND PUT THAT MONEY UPFRONT AND DO A FIRST DEAL. RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT'S ONE BIG THING IS JUST APPROPRIATION. I THINK THE OTHER THING IS THAT THIS IS A NEW IT'S A NEW CATEGORY AND SO YOU KNOW, IT'S NEITHER IT'S NEITHER LIKE SORT OF TRADITIONAL PUBLIC LIKE THE INVESTMENT THAT THE CFOS OFFICE DOES WHICH IS TO JUST CONSERVE THE PUBLIC DOLLAR. RIGHT. INVESTED PRETTY CONSERVATIVELY TO MAKE SURE WE'RE GONNA HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO COVER ALL OF OUR PUBLIC EXPENSES OR SPENDING WHICH IS WHAT WE DO IN THE CITY BUDGET EVERY YEAR. THIS IS AN IN-BETWEEN SPACE OF LIKE SOCIAL INVESTMENT BY THE PUBLIC ENTITY AND THAT MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOOD CLEAR GUARDRAILS ABOUT YOU KNOW, OKAY, SO YOU'RE ACCEPTING A LOWER RETURN BUT LIKE WHAT'S THE LIMIT ON THAT AND WHAT ARE THE RULES GOING TO BE AROUND THE NATURE OF THIS INVESTMENT? LIKE MONTGOMERY SAYS, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO DO THIS IN BUILDINGS. WE END UP OWNING A MAJORITY STAKE OF AND WE YOU KNOW, WE EXPECT TO GET THIS MUCH BACK AND LIKE THAT KIND OF THING. SO I THINK THOSE ARE REALLY THE TWO THINGS ARE NEEDING TO SET UP CLEAR CONSTRAINTS ON THE PROGRAMS THAT THE PUBLIC KNOWS THAT WHEN YOU PUT UP THAT INITIAL STAKE THAT IT'S REALLY GOING TO GET A LOT OF BANG FOR ITS BUCK. THE THE ONLY THING I WOULD ADD IF I IF I MAY IS THAT THE MODEL THAT WAS DESCRIBED RELIES ON LESS LIKE ACTUAL PUBLIC PUBLIC SUBSIDY BUT THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT MARKET RATE COMPONENT IN THESE PROJECTS. YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON ALL OF THEM COULD BE STRUCTURED A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY. SO I THINK OUR AFFORDABLE HOUSING COMMUNITIES AND OUR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND ALL OF US WOULD HAVE TO GET COMFORTABLE WITH MAKING SIGNIFICANT PRIVATE OR PUBLIC INVESTMENT IN VERY MIXED INCOME PROJECTS WHERE THERE ARE ALL THE UNITS AREN'T GOING TO BE DEEPLY AFFORDABLE. I'M VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS BECAUSE WE NEED SUPPLY AND WE NEED MIXED INCOME COMMUNITIES AND I THINK IT'S JUST ANOTHER TOOL. IT'S NOT SUBTRACTING FROM OUR OTHER CONSTRUCTION BUT I THINK WE WOULD HAVE TO GET COMFORTABLE WITH THIS CONCEPT.  OKAY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND I RECOMMEND TO EVERYONE HERE TO USE A LOT OF ANALOGIES TO IRONMAN. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE ARE TWO ROADBLOCKS YOU KNOW HAVE TO CONNECT WITH OUR OUR AUDIENCE TODAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU COUNSELOR.  AND WE'VE BEEN JOINED BY COUNSELOR CALLENDER FROM DISTRICT ONE AND COUNSELOR DURKIN AND COUNSELOR FITZGERALD. I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO THE LEAD SPONSOR, COUNSELOR SANTANA. RIGHT. THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR, AND WELCOME TO OUR VISITORS. SO GLAD TO BE JOINED BY SO MANY OF OUR YOUTH. I SEE PEOPLE ANGEL THANK YOU, CHIEF DILLON ROBERTS AND ADMINISTRATOR BOK. YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN REALLY EXCITED TO SEE THE ADMINISTRATION INNOVATING TO COMBINE HOUSING AND PUBLIC FACILITIES INTO SOME OF THE RECENT RFP FOR OUR CITY OWNED LAND LIKE THE CREATION OF NEW LIBRARIES AND HOUSING IN CHINATOWN AND THE WEST END AND THE REDEVELOPMENT OF VHA FACILITIES ARE INCREASINGLY INCORPORATING PUBLIC BENEFITS TOO. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION ABOUT WHAT A HLC IS DOING IS THAT THEY'RE INCORPORATING PUBLIC FACILITIES LIKE COMMUNITY CENTERS, LIBRARIES AND EVEN POOLS INTO THEIR MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING PROGRAMS. OTHER ARE THERE WAYS A PROGRAM LIKE THIS MIGHT ENABLE US TO FURTHER HOW MUCH WE CAN INVEST TO INCORPORATE PUBLIC AND COMMUNITY FACILITIES INTO HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS HERE IN BOSTON? SO I'LL START AND CERTAINLY HANDED OVER TO ADMINISTRATOR BOK BUT I DON'T I CAN'T THINK OF A REASON SITTING HERE WHY WE COULDN'T TAKE PUBLIC LAND VHA SURPLUS LAND OR PUBLIC ASSETS AND USE THIS FINANCIAL DEVELOPMENT MODEL ON THOSE SITES IF IF I'M UNDERSTANDING THE QUESTION CLEARLY THERE'S NOTHING THAT WOULD STOP US FROM DOING THAT. I THINK WHEN WE DO USE PUBLIC LAND AND PUBLIC SITES WE PROBABLY WANT TO LOOK AT THE RANGE OF AFFORDABILITY AND AND MAYBE THERE'S WAYS WE COULD MODEL, YOU KNOW, SLIGHTLY HIGHER THAN 20 OR 30%. BUT I THINK THERE'S NOTHING STOPPING US FROM DOING THAT.  YEAH, I THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY IS YEAH I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SO ONE OF THE BENEFITS AND PAUL DESCRIBED THIS RIGHT LIKE BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE NO LONGER TRYING TO MEET THE PRIVATE RETURN NEEDS OF THE PRIVATE EQUITY SIDE YOU HAVE SOME MONEY IN THE DEALS RIGHT LIKE THAT WHEN YOU'RE ACCEPTING A LOWER RETURN. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO WITH THAT MONEY IS CREATE INCREASED AFFORDABILITY OR LIKE A HIGHER RATIO OR LIKE I MENTIONED BEFORE ADDING MIDDLE INCOME UNITS TO THE MIX. ANOTHER THING YOU CAN DO WITH THAT VALUE IS YOU CAN CREATE PUBLIC AMENITIES, RIGHT OR LIKE OR NICE SHARED AMENITIES WITH THAT VALUE BECAUSE YOU'VE YOU'VE GOT IT IN THE DEAL. I THINK THE THING THAT YOU HAVE TO BE EYES WIDE OPEN ABOUT AND THIS THIS RELATES TO WHAT I WAS JUST SAYING ABOUT PARAMETERS IS LIKE IF THE PUBLIC REPLACE THE PRIVATE EQUITY STAKE BUT DIDN'T MAKE ANY LIKE DIDN'T HAVE ANY AMENITIES OR ADDITIONAL THINGS RIGHT THAT THEY ADDED TO THE THING THE PUBLIC REVOLVING SIDE WOULD MAKE MORE MONEY BACK. RIGHT. SO THE MORE THAT YOU DO THE LIKE AMENITIES THE LESS THE THE LESS VALUE THAT'S GOING TO RETURN IN TERMS OF LIKE NET SO YOU JUST WHICH IS A TOTALLY FAIR PUBLIC TRADEOFF TO MAKE BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO BE CLEAR OH RIGHT I WON'T GET THE PRIVATE EQUITY RETURNS IF I ALSO DO ALL THESE THINGS TO YOU KNOW, ADD AMENITIES AND ADD GREATER AFFORDABILITY AND WHATEVER TO THE TO THE PROJECT . BUT I THINK AS LONG AS YOU'RE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THOSE TRADEOFFS ARE, THERE'S A REALLY GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO JUST GET MORE PUBLIC VALUE.  AND I THINK WE SHOULD SAY LIKE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IT'S LIKE GET MORE PUBLIC VALUE TO IN HOUSING PRODUCTION WHERE WE ARE ALREADY PUTTING SO MUCH PUBLIC VALUE IN. LIKE WHEN WE DEVELOP ON PUBLIC LAND AND THEN ALSO WHEN WE PUT PUBLIC SUBSIDIES YOU KNOW BOTH THE THAT MY AGENCY PROVIDES TO A LOT OF PROJECTS AROUND THE CITY INCLUDING A LOT OF PRIVATE PROJECTS AND THE SOFT DEBT THAT SHEILA'S SHOP PROVIDES WE PUT A TON OF PUBLIC MONEY INTO HOUSING PRODUCTION RIGHT NOW AND SO YOU KNOW, THE IDEA IS HOW DO YOU PUT THAT MONEY IN BUT IN A WAY THAT ACTUALLY GETS YOU A PUBLIC RETURN AS WELL? RIGHT. WELL, I THINK WE LIVED IN THE CITY. THANK YOU, COUNCILOR ROSSI LOUIJEUNE.  YOUR NEXT STOP, YOU'RE YOU'RE THE LEAD CO-SPONSOR. THANK YOU.  THANK YOU, CHAIR BRITTON. AND I WANT TO THANK YOU COUNCILOR SANTANA FOR CARING SO MUCH ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND FOR ALLOWING ME TO BE A CO-SPONSOR. I WANT TO THANK ADMINISTRATIVE BOARD CHIEF DYLAN ALL OUR EXPERTS FOR BEING HERE TO GIVE TESTIMONY. I ALSO WANT TO GIVE ANOTHER SHOUT OUT TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSE CHARTER SCHOOL FROM DORCHESTER AND THE MADISON FROM MATTAPAN THAT ARE IN THE HOUSE. THANK YOU FOR FOR BEING WITH US HERE IN YOUR HOUSE WHICH IS CITY HALL. ONE OF THE THINGS WHEN I GAVE MY MEETING TODAY I TALKED ABOUT WAS ABOUT SOCIAL BONDS FOR FOR HOUSING AND FOR ME FOR HOUSING AND FOR SCHOOLS AND FOR ME THAT'S AN WHERE I THINK THERE COULD BE A LOT OF SYNERGY BETWEEN THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING BONDS TO ISSUE DEBT AS A CITY TO CREATE MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. AND THIS IS ONE AREA WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOCIAL HOUSING SHOUT OUT TO MICHAEL CAINE WHO THE FIRST TIME THAT WE TALKED ON THE PHONE WAS LIKE HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT SOCIAL HOUSING?  WHEN I WAS, YOU KNOW, A YOUTHFUL CITY COUNCILOR THAT WE SHOULD BE USING THAT LIKE LIKE LEANING IN TO WHAT WE WHAT OUR STRENGTHS ARE. OUR TRIPLE-A BOND RATING WHEN WE LOOK AT OUR FISCAL STRENGTH TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE'RE LEANING INTO THAT TO MAKE EITHER THROUGH OUR GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS OR THROUGH YOU KNOW, LABELING THEM OUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING BOND THEN PUTTING THOSE ON THE MARKET HOW CAN THAT FIT INTO SOCIAL HOUSING?  AND I'M GOING TO TURN THIS QUESTION DEMONSTRATOR BACK WHO WAS WHEN SHE WAS ON THIS COUNCIL WAS I THINK CO-SPONSOR ON MY HEARING ON USING OUR BOND RATING TO INVEST MORE IN HOUSING AND IN SCHOOLS AND BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE ALLOWED TO USE BONDS FOR WHICH IS PUBLIC GOODS.  SO YES NO I WAS DELIGHTED TO BE YOUR SPONSOR AND HAPPY TO FIELD THAT QUESTION. IN FACT THE CITY OF BOSTON IN I THINK IT WAS FALL 2020 ISSUED ITS FIRST SET OF SOCIAL BONDS WHICH WERE IT WAS A TRANCHE OF CITY BONDS GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS THAT WERE SPECIFICALLY TARGETED AT THE HOUSING AND GREEN INFRASTRUCTURE RELATED INVESTMENTS OF THE CITY. SO THEY WERE GREEN AND SOCIAL BONDS.  THEY ALSO MADE THEM AVAILABLE AT THE TIME TO PRIVATE INVESTORS AND I WAS SO EXCITED TO TRY TO BUY LIKE ONE SMALL SHARE OF A BOND AND THEN THANKFULLY BEFORE I DID THIS I EXPRESSED MY ENTHUSIASM AND SOMEONE FROM THE TREASURY OFFICE INFORMED ME THAT CITY COUNCILORS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BUY THE DEBT OF THE CITY OF BOSTON. SO I AVOIDED, YOU KNOW, GETTING IN TROUBLE AND I JUST AM PASSING THAT INFORMATION ALONG TO ALL OF YOU IN CASE LIKE ME YOU WERE SO TEMPTED TO SUPPORT OUR SOCIAL BONDS AND THAT YOU WANTED TO TRY TO GET ONE. BUT YEAH, BASICALLY YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S HUGE OPPORTUNITY HERE AND I SHOULD SAY THAT IN SOME WAYS THE WHOLE PREMISE OF THIS IS BUILT ON THE BONDING CAPACITY OF THE CITY AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT THE WHOLE REASON WHY THE PUBLIC SIDE CAN AFFORD TO SPEND TO INVEST MONEY IN HOUSING AND TAKE A RETURN THAT IS LESS THAN WHAT THE PRIVATE SIDE CAN RETURN IS BECAUSE CHEAPER MONEY IS AVAILABLE TO IT BECAUSE OF THE LOW INTEREST RATES THAT WE CAN GET ON THE BOND MARKET WITH OUR TRIPLE-A BOND RATING. RIGHT. SO IT'S LIKE THAT'S WHAT UNDERGIRDS OUR ABILITY TO BE THE CHEAPER FINANCE FOR THESE PROJECTS. SO IT'S TOTALLY RELATED AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE THE ONE THING THAT HAS CHANGED SINCE YOU AND I HAD THAT HEARING IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION'S BEING MORE AND MORE AGGRESSIVE ABOUT JUST LIKE REALLY TRYING TO USE RIGHT UP TO THAT 7% POLICY LIMIT AND OBVIOUSLY YOU ALL WILL HAVE THE BUDGET IN COMING WEEKS.  SO THAT'S NOT THAT'S NOT MY ROLE HERE. BUT I THINK THAT YEAH THAT'S THAT'S THE ONLY THING NOW IS THAT WE'VE GOT SO MANY PROJECTS WE'RE TRYING TO DO ALL AT THE SAME TIME ON THAT SAME BOND RATING.  BUT I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT STILL HOLDS WHICH IS THAT THIS IS A WAY OF THINKING ABOUT HOW THAT PUBLIC FINANCING CAN SUPPORT THIS LIKE CORE CORE PUBLIC GOOD AND IT'S TREATING HOUSING AS A PUBLIC GOOD. RIGHT. SO LIKE SIX YEARS AGO THERE WERE THERE WAS NO SUPPORT FOR THE VHA. THERE WAS NO HOUSING SECTION OF THE CAPITAL PLAN LIKE THAT THAT THE MAYOR'S OFFICE OF HOUSING WAS SUPPORTED THROUGH LINKAGE AND THROUGH AN OPERATING BUDGET. BUT THERE WAS NO CONCEPT OF HOUSING BEING A CATEGORY OF THE CAPITAL PLAN. FORTUNATELY SINCE 2019 THAT HAS CHANGED. NOW THERE'S LIKE 200 MILLION AND THE $3 BILLION CAPITAL PLAN LAST YEAR THAT SPECIFICALLY HOUSING FOCUS. SO THAT'S BEEN A REALLY BIG SEA CHANGE FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DOUBLE DOWN ON AND CONTINUE. OKAY.  THANK YOU. I WANTED IT I'M GOING TO KEEP GOING CONSTANTLY HERE. DID YOU HAVE A THANK YOU FOR THIS BUT I THINK THE BIGGER READING I'M GOING TO DO LIKE A ONE QUESTION AROUND AND THEN WE'LL COME BACK AROUND AGAIN TO SORT EVERYBODY AND GETS A CHANCE TO SPEAK. AND WE'VE BEEN JOINED BY COUNCILOR EDSON FROM DISTRICT TWO.  THANK YOU CHAIR AND THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUES FOR BRINGING THIS FOR. GOOD TO SEE YOU COUNCILOR FORMER COUNCILOR BOURQUE, IT'S WEIRD TO SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THINGS.  HELLO CHIEF. HI. AND BEFORE I EVEN START WITH MY QUESTIONS, I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU, CHIEF DOLAN. I MEAN YOUR DEPARTMENT IS ALWAYS AVAILABLE TO MY TEAM AND THERE HAS NOT BEEN ONE HOUSING CRISIS THAT YOU ALL HAVE NOT STEPPED UP FOR TO SUPPORT US. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU BECAUSE YOU GET A LOT OF CRITICISM IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.  BUT I JUST WANT TO START OFF WITH GRATITUDE TO LET YOU KNOW HOW MUCH WE APPRECIATE YOU AND DIRECTOR DANIEL. I MEAN LIKE SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS ARE ALWAYS THERE SO THANK YOU. THANK YOU.  ALL RIGHT. SO I JUST HAVE A QUICK QUESTION SINCE I CAN ONLY GET ONE IN, I'M JUST CURIOUS THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ROUND SO FOR JUST TO HELP FOR THE FOLKS WHO ARE LIKE TUNING IN NO MATTER WHO OR WHO HERE OR IN THE ZOOM MIGHT BE ABLE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.  THERE'S BEEN SOME CRITICISM AROUND SOCIAL AND MIXED USE AND SOME FOLKS ARE SAYING THAT YOU KNOW, IT'S ANOTHER FORM OF LIKE NEOLIBERALISM.  RIGHT. I'M NOT SURE IF YOU GUYS HAVE HEARD THAT CRITICISM BUT THEY'RE SAYING THAT IT'S YOU KNOW, IT COULD RISK GENERALIZING POOR POPULATIONS AND FURTHER DISPLACING PEOPLE AND SOCIAL MIX INITIATIVES WHILE THEY SEEM MOTIVATED BY EQUITY SOMETIMES THERE'S THE ECONOMIC FACTORS THAT ARE DRIVING THESE OPPORTUNITIES KIND OF LIKE THERE'S A CONFLICT THERE. AND SO I'M CURIOUS FOR THOSE WHO ARE TUNING IN IF YOU CAN HELP US UNDERSTAND KIND OF LIKE HOW BOSTON IS NOT GOING TO FALL TOO SO THAT YOU KNOW, PUTTING PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY POOR AND FOR THE HARM AND WHAT IF ANY THINKING HAVE YOU HAD AROUND MAKING IT MORE ON THE AFFORDABLE END AND LESS ON THE SOCIAL MIX INCOME AND RIGHT SO THAT IF WE'RE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT MEETING THE MOMENT AROUND CREATING MORE HOUSING PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE HERE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON, HOW ARE YOU LOOKING AT DISTRIBUTING THE MIXED USE? YEAH, SO I CAN SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS ABOUT THAT AND THANKS FOR THE QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SOCIAL HOUSING LIKE IS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT PUSHING BACK AGAINST A NEOLIBERAL PUBLIC PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT FRAME THAT WE'VE LIVED WITH FOR A WHILE.  SO I MENTIONED BEFORE THAT THE VHA HAS HAD A SERIES OF REDEVELOPMENTS. SO I THINK ONE THAT PEOPLE HERE PROBABLY KNOW IS LIKE IN MISSION HILL RIGHT?  MISSION MAIN USED TO BE THOSE TRADITIONAL LIKE BRICK PUBLIC HOUSING BUILDINGS AND WE TURN IT INTO TOWNHOUSES SO IT USED TO LOOK LIKE ALICE TAYLOR RIGHT NOW AND IT LOOKS LIKE THESE WOODEN TOWNHOUSES THEY'RE THEY'RE REALLY NICE ART FOLKS WHO LIVE THERE LIKE THEM THERE. THEY'RE I THINK A THIRD OF THE NUMBER OF UNITS THAT WE HAD BEFORE THE REDEVELOPMENT.  RIGHT. SO WE LOST A LOT OF TOTAL DEEPLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING WHEN WE DID THAT AND THERE WERE A BUNCH OF PROJECTS LIKE THAT AND THE REASON WAS BECAUSE THE HOUSING WAS REALLY DISTRESSED. THERE REALLY NEED TO BE INVESTMENT BUT CRITICALLY THERE WAS THIS CONCEPT THAT THE PUBLIC YEAH SHOULD SAY GOODBYE TO FOUR YEARS AGO JUST WANT TO SAY HELLO DIANE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.  WE APPRECIATE Y'ALL. THANK YOU GUYS.  THIS IS CALLED AN INTERMISSION. YES. SO THAT WE CAN FULLY YOU KNOW,  MAKE SURE WE'RE HERE FOR IT.  BUT I THINK IT'S A VERY GOOD REMINDER. WELL, THESE FOLKS ARE HEADED OUT THAT WE DO HOUSING FOR PEOPLE LIKE THE GOAL IS FOR OUR FAMILIES TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THE CITY AND OUR KIDS FEEL GROW UP IN THE CITY SO I THANK YOU GUYS FOR BEING ASKED.  I HOPE IT WASN'T BORING. DID ASK YOU ARE THERE MEANINGFUL OR VERY INTERESTING MIGHT BE INTERESTING AND THEY'LL BE INTERESTING FOR 5 MINUTES AND A RIGHT WELL WHILE THEY FILE OUT I'LL JUST TAKE A MOMENT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE TO SAY THAT WHEN I FIRST MET COUNCILOR SANTANA HE TOLD ME A STORY ABOUT THE TIME WHEN IN EIGHTH GRADE HE FIRST GOT TO COME IN TO THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBER AND GO INTO A COUNSELOR'S OFFICE AND NOW HE WORKS IN ONE. SO I'M SURE ONE OF THE KIDS WHO CAME IN JUST NOW IS GOING TO END UP IN ONE OF YOUR ALL'S OFFICES SOMEDAY SO IT'S A IT'S A NICE THING TO THINK ABOUT. YEAH, THEY'LL BE WELCOMED. YES.  SO COUNCILOR MEJIA BACK TO YOUR QUESTION.  SO THE POINT IS FOR A LONG TIME AND JUST ALSO BECAUSE YOU KNOW MY AUDIENCE RIGHT.  SO JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE LIKE WHAT I WHAT I'M REALLY TRYING TO GET AT IS THAT THERE IS A CRITICISM AROUND HOW THIS COULD HAVE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES ON POOR PEOPLE. RIGHT. SO IF YOU COULD REALLY HELP US DEMYSTIFY THAT AND I ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE TARGETING AND TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE BUSSING ERA THERE'S YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A LOT OF LIKE DRAMA.  THEY DIDN'T WANT US TO BE INTEGRATED. RIGHT. AND SO AS WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T FURTHER HARM POOR PEOPLE? YEAH. SO I THINK BASICALLY WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT FOR A LONG TIME THERE WAS THE CONCEPTION THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT GOVERNMENT WOULD GIVE MONEY TO HAS REALLY POOR PEOPLE ANYMORE AFTER WE STOP BUILDING NEW PUBLIC HOUSING WAS IF IT WENT PRIVATE SO ALL THOSE HOPE SIX DEALS AND ALL THESE LIKE EVEN CHOICE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT CAME OUT OF THE OBAMA MINISTRATION WHERE IT WAS AT LEAST ONE FOR ONE REPLACEMENT OF UNITS THE CONCEPT HAS BASICALLY BEEN GET THE PUBLIC SIDE OUT OF HOUSING ,PUT IT ON THE PRIVATE SIDE. RIGHT AND LISTEN, WE HAVE SOME GREAT PRIVATE NONPROFIT PARTNERS WHO ARE SOME OF THE OWNERS OF THOSE AND THIS IS NOT KNOCKING THEM BUT THERE WAS THIS IDEA RIGHT, THAT LIKE THE PUBLIC CAN'T DO THIS. WHAT WE HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND IS THAT PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY LOW INCOME PEOPLE, THEY WANT THE PUBLIC INVOLVED. SO EVEN WITH THOSE PRIVATE DEVELOPMENTS WE HAVE OUR TENANT LEADERS STILL COMING BACK TO THE BACK WANTING TO MAINTAIN RELATIONSHIPS AND ALSO FRANKLY WANTING THE PUBLIC SIDE TO HELP HOLD THE PRIVATE SIDE ACCOUNTABLE SO THAT IF FOR INSTANCE THEY'RE LIVING IN CONVERTED PUBLIC HOUSING AND THEN THEIR RIGHTS AS TENANTS START GETTING TRAMPLED THAT THEY'VE GOT SOME RECOURSE AND THEY COME BACK TO US. SO I FEEL LIKE WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IN THIS HISTORY IS THAT LIKE FOR US TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE ON LOW INCOME PEOPLE AND REALLY KEEP THEIR PLACE IN THE CITY, THE PUBLIC'S GOT TO BE THE ULTIMATE OWNER AND THE ULTIMATE LIKE PER ENTITY THAT'S MAKING THIS GUARANTEEING THAT BECAUSE WE JUST CAN'T COUNT ON A PRIVATE ENTITY TO GUARANTEE THAT AND AND THAT'S WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THE FRAMEWORK'S ACTUALLY BEEN PRETTY NEOLIBERAL HISTORICALLY AND THIS IS REALLY A SWING BACK TO SAYING HEY, IF WE'RE GOING TO BUILD MIXED INCOME HOUSING LIKE ACTUALLY IT SHOULD BE PUBLICLY OWNED BECAUSE THAT WAY WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT THE LOWER INCOME FOLKS DON'T GET LIKE YOU KNOW,  THERE'S LOWER INCOME UNITS IN THE BUILDINGS BUT THEN FOLKS GET EVICTED BECAUSE OF LIKE SOME KIND OF ARBITRARY RULES. RIGHT. OR LIKE SOMETHING THAT KIND OF SQUEEZES THEM OUT WHICH IS I THINK WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. RIGHT. IS THAT FEAR THAT LIKE IT'LL LOOK GOOD BUT THEN PEOPLE GET PUSHED OUT AND AND WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THAT KIND OF STUFF IS A LOT MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN WITH PRIVATE CONTROL AND WITH PRIVATE EQUITY OWNING A STAKE IN THE BUILDINGS BECAUSE FUNDAMENTALLY THEIR INTEREST IS JUST IN MAKING A BUCK. RIGHT. AND SO THAT'S ACTUALLY WHERE WE THINK THAT THE PUBLIC AT STAKE CAN ACTUALLY BE BETTER FOR PEOPLE. SO SO I SEE THIS AS ANSWERING THAT CONCERN. I ALSO WOULD SAY THOUGH THAT SOCIAL HOUSING IN BOSTON I MEAN IT'S GOING TO LOOK DIFFERENT ANY PLACE WE IN BOSTON IF WE DID SOMETHING LIKE THIS WOULD HAVE MUCH DEEPER AFFORDABILITY THAN FOR INSTANCE, THAN THEY DO IN MONTGOMERY IN SOME OF THE BUILDINGS. SO WE YOU KNOW, WE WOULD INCLUDE FAIRCLOTH UNITS WHICH ARE DEEPLY, DEEPLY AFFORDABLE PUBLIC HOUSING UNITS AS ARE AFFORDABLE UNITS. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY'RE CURRENTLY DOING IN THEIR BUILDING. SO I THINK PAUL MENTIONED THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO DO LIKE 50% AMI TYPE UNITS AS THE AFFORDABLE ONES.  I THINK WE'RE A DIFFERENT CONTEXT AND WE I MEAN CERTAINLY ANYTHING THAT GETS DEVELOPED ON VHA LAND THE GOAL IS FOR US TO HOUSE THE PEOPLE WE HAS NOW AND MORE PEOPLE OFF OF OUR WAITLIST RIGHT?  THAT'S OUR OBJECTIVE. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS COUNCILOR MEJIA THAT WE DON'T WANT TO DO IS WE DON'T WANT TO PIT ALL THE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF INCOME AGAINST EACH OTHER IN THIS FIGHT FOR HOUSING BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I SEE IT BE IS THAT AND COUNCILOR SANTANA ACTUALLY NOTED THIS IN HIS OPENING REMARKS WE SEE FOLKS AT THE HRA WHO START TO MAKE MORE MONEY FEEL STUCK AND NOT HAVE LIKE AN OPTION TO MOVE OUT OF PUBLIC HOUSING BECAUSE THEY USED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A LITTLE MORE MONEY AND THEN MAYBE AFFORD A DOWN PAYMENT OR AFFORD RENTAL IN THE PRIVATE MARKET FROM KIND OF LIKE CHEAPER HOUSING THAT WAS AVAILABLE AND NOW ALL THOSE OPTIONS ARE GONE AND SO OUR TURNOVER RATES HAVE DROPPED TO LIKE REALLY LOW SINGLE DIGITS AND I THINK OUR FAMILIES DON'T LIKE THE FEELING OF WELL IF I MAKE TOO MUCH MONEY THEN I MIGHT GET FORCED OUT OF THE CITY ALTOGETHER BECAUSE I CAN'T STAY IN BOSTON WITHOUT LIVING IN A HOUSING LIKE. SO WE'RE ALSO INTERESTED RIGHT FOR THOSE FOLKS TO HAVE ROOM TO GROW THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME PUBLICLY SUPPORTED MIDDLE INCOME HOUSING SO THAT WE REBUILD EVERY REALLY STEP OF THE LADDER.  RIGHT. THANK YOU.  COUNCILOR COLETTA.  THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR, AND CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU ON ON THIS COMMITTEE. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I'M COMING TO A HOUSING COMMITTEE SO I JUST WANT TO SAY CONGRATS AND THANK YOU TO THE CO-SPONSORS FOR PRODUCING THIS REALLY CREATIVE PIECE OF POLICY. I THINK TO PRESENT AND BE PROACTIVE ABOUT TRYING TO PRESENT SOLUTIONS RATHER THAN TALKING ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES WITHIN THE CITY IS IS DEFINITELY APPROACH THAT YOU TAKE. SO I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU AND THE CO-SPONSOR ON THAT JUST IN GENERAL THOUGH, THANK YOU BOTH FOR FOR THE WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE ALREADY MIDDLE MIXED INCOME HOUSING IS SO DESPERATELY NEEDED IN THE CITY ESPECIALLY IN MY COMMUNITY IS BOSTON WHERE FOLKS ARE LARGELY LIVING WITHIN THE 40% TO 80% RANGE AMI RANGE AND I WORKED WITH BOTH OF YOU ON ON A LOT OF THESE ISSUES SHEILA WITH SUFFOLK DOWNS AND MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE BUILDING A NEW NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IS TRULY INCLUSIVE OF EVERYBODY AND THAT WAS A LOT OF WORK AND SO I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU ON THAT AND THEN TO ADMINISTRATOR. BLOCK WITH YOUR WORK IN CHARLESTOWN AND THE BUNKER HILL HOUSING DEVELOPMENT AND THE GOOD NEWS AND WHAT WE COULD LOOK TO IS THAT WE HAVE A FRAMEWORK OF WHAT WE COULD POSSIBLY DO WITH MONTGOMERY COUNTY.  AND I WANT TO THANK THE GENTLEMAN WHO WAS HERE WHO GAVE A REALLY INFORMATIVE PERSPECTIVE OF OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN MONTGOMERY AND THEN ALSO LOOKING TO VIENNA. IT'S CLEAR THAT WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN AND THERE'S A LOT TO TO DO HERE AND WHAT I'M REALLY PLEASED ABOUT THIS MODEL OR PLEASED ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THIS IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO DEPEND ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITH WITH THE LOW TECH OR POTENTIALLY WE DON'T HAVE TO DEPEND ON THEM WITH WITHOUT OR HAVE FUNDS AND WE ESSENTIALLY BREAK FREE OF THE CONSTRAINT OF THE CONSTRAINTS AND AND LOOSEN THE GRIP OF THE PRIVATE MARKET TOO. SO THERE IS SOME REALLY THERE IS A GREAT MODEL HERE AND SO I AM VERY SUPPORTIVE OF IT. AND I GUESS MY QUESTION SINCE WE'RE WE'RE DOING ONE AND THEN GOING THROUGH IS JUST UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE REALISTIC FINANCING STRUCTURE COULD BE GIVEN THE EXISTING RESOURCES AT OUR DISPOSAL LIKE ON THE PUBLIC SIDE WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT WE COULD POTENTIALLY PROVIDE THE LAND WE COULD PROVIDE SOME MONEY FROM THE CITY WE CAN BOND WITH OR LEVERAGE OUR BONDS LIKE AT WHAT POINT DOES LIKE MASS HOUSING COME INTO PLAY OR MASS DEVELOPMENT HAS ALREADY BEEN CONVERSATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. I GUESS I JUST NEED A ROAD MAP OF WHAT THIS HOUSING FINANCE STRUCTURE MIGHT LOOK LIKE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I'M IN THE WEEDS ON EVERY DAY AND SO I KNOW THAT I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN BUT JUST WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU ALL WHAT IT COULD REALISTICALLY LOOK LIKE SO THAT WE HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW WE COULD POTENTIALLY PARTNER WITH THE STATE AND PRIVATE FORCES.  YEAH, SO LET ME SAY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS AND THEN AND THEN OF SHEILA'S I THINK THAT AND THEN I THINK IT'S ALSO HELPFUL TO PAUL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THIS IS LOOK LIKE IN MONTGOMERY IN OTHER PLACES BUT BASICALLY TO AND I'M GOING TO DO THIS IN VERY ROUGH SHORTHAND LIKE THINK ABOUT IT LIKE ABOUT TWO THIRDS OF OUR PROJECT OF A OF A BIG HOUSING DEVELOPMENT PROJECT IS COVERED BY A CONSTRUCTION LOAN THAT YOU BASICALLY GET FROM A BANK RIGHT WHERE THEY SAY OKAY, YOU'RE GOING TO GET TO BUILD THIS, I'LL GIVE YOU THE MONEY AND THEN YOU GOT TO PAY ME BACK AT THIS INTEREST. RIGHT NOW THAT INTEREST RATE HAS GONE UP BECAUSE OF THE TREASURY RATE GOING UP. BUT THAT'S THE BASIC THING.  AND WHEN IF WE DO SOMETHING ON PUBLICLY AND AND THERE'S A MEANINGFUL EVEN IF IT'S MIXED INCOME, THERE'S A MEANINGFUL AFFORDABLE PIECE OF IT, THEN THERE ARE CERTAIN PRODUCTS THAT ARE BACKED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. I WON'T GO INTO THE WEEDS ON THEM BUT THERE ARE HUD AND MASS HOUSING LOANS THAT ARE THEY ARE THAT CONSTRUCTION LOAN BUT THEY BASICALLY JUST HAVE LIKE BETTER TERMS THAN YOU WOULD GET OTHERWISE AND THEY'RE KIND OF LIKE YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S ON PAY BACK OR THE INTEREST RATE OR JUST LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS. SO TYPICALLY FOR PROJECTS LIKE THIS SO TWO THIRDS OF OUR MONEY IS BEING COVERED THAT WAY AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY BY THE WAY. LIKE IF YOU WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE CHARLESTOWN LIKE DEAL LIKE WE WOULD BE DOING THAT ANYWAYS. SO I THINK A WORTHWHILE THING TO NOTE IS THAT IN THE CURRENT MODEL THE EQUITY PARTNER IS ONLY PUTTING IN THAT LAST THIRD BUT THEY'RE GETTING ALL OF THE VALUE RIGHT.  SO I THINK PEOPLE DON'T ALWAYS REALIZE THAT BUT ACTUALLY LIKE TWO THIRDS IS BEING COVERED BY A LOAN WHICH WE COULD GO AS THE PUBLIC SIDE AND GET OURSELVES LIKE THE EQUITY PARTNERS NOT WHAT UNLOCKS THAT BUT IT'S THAT ONE THIRD STAKE THAT FUNCTIONALLY GIVES YOU OWNERSHIP, RIGHT? SO THAT'S AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT REPLACING.  AND SO THE THE IDEA WOULD BE THAT YOU WOULD BASICALLY COME IN WITH THE WITH PUBLIC MONEY INSTEAD OF WITH PRIVATE MONEY FOR THAT STAKE. LIKE I SAID, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY FOR THE PUBLIC TO PUT INTO ONE DEAL IF YOU WERE GOING TO IF YOU WERE GOING TO SPEND IT ONCE AND NEVER SEE IT AGAIN, IT WOULD BE WAY TOO MUCH MONEY, RIGHT FOR ONE DEAL. BUT THEN THE THING ABOUT CONSTRUCTION IS THAT THESE DEALS ARE PROFILE JUST VERY RISKY BEFORE THE BUILDING EXISTS AND ALL THE INTEREST RATES AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU PAY AND THE RETURNS YOU PAY TO EQUITY ON THEM ARE BASED ON BASICALLY THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE COULD BE LIKE AN EXPLOSION AND YOUR WHOLE THING COULD JUST LIKE FALL APART OR IT COULD TURN OUT THAT THIS PLACE YOU'RE BUILDING ON IS ACTUALLY A SWAMP OR LIKE OR THE WHOLE GOVERNMENT COULD CHANGE AND THEY COULD DECIDE TO REVOKE YOUR PERMITS. RIGHT? THERE'S LIKE ALL THESE DIFFERENT PERCEIVED RISKS ONCE YOU HAVE A CONSTRUCTED OCCUPIED BUILDING IT'S CALLED A STABILIZED LIKE ASSET. THE WHOLE PROFILE CHANGES AND THAT'S WHAT MONTGOMERY TAKES ADVANTAGE OF IS IT PUTS IN THE GOVERNMENT MONEY TO COVER THE EQUITY STAKE INSTEAD OF PAYING THE RETURNS BASED ON THE RISK PROFILE IT SAYS OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO WE'RE GOING TO COVER THIS AND ACCEPT A SMALLER RETURN BUT THEN WHEN IT GETS TO THE OTHER SIDE IN THE BUILDING EXISTS, THERE ARE PRIVATE ENTITIES THAT ARE WILLING TO REPLACE THAT EQUITY STAKE IN TERMS OF LIKE A MORTGAGE RATE. THEY'RE ABLE TO LIKE PROVIDE A REPLACEMENT LOAN BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE SUPPORTING A STABILIZED PREDICTABLE ASSET WHERE BECAUSE IT'S OCCUPIED THEY KNOW HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO PAY AND THEY'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT ALL THOSE X FACTOR RISKS. SO BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS YOU'RE USING THE PUBLIC MONEY TO GET OVER THAT HUMP FROM VERY RISKY TO NOT RISKY AT ALL WITH WITHOUT PAYING THIS CRAZY PREMIUM THAT YOU PAY OTHERWISE FOR THAT RISK AND AND I THINK IT MAKES GOOD SENSE IN PART BECAUSE SOME OF THE RISKS THAT THE PRIVATE SIDE IS TRYING TO INSURE AGAINST IS ACTUALLY THINGS WE CONTROL LIKE THE PRIVATE SIDE IS TRYING TO LOOK LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO INSURE AGAINST THE CITY COUNCILOR AND THE MAYOR DECIDE THEY HATE THIS PROJECT AND BLOCK IT LAST MINUTE. RIGHT. BUT IF IT'S A PROJECT THAT THE CITY COUNCIL AND THE MAYOR WANT TO SEE HAPPEN LIKE WE KNOW THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. AND SO THERE'S THIS WEIRD SITUATION TODAY WHERE ESPECIALLY ON DEALS WHERE WE DO HAVE SIGNIFICANT AFFORDABILITY, WE'RE OVERPAYING FOR A RISK PREMIUM IN THE MARKET THAT'S ACTUALLY FAKE BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO CREATE THAT ISSUE BUT THE MARKET DOESN'T KNOW THAT SO I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY A BETTER REFLECTION OF VALUE TO DO IT THIS WAY. BUT MAYBE IF PAUL WANTED TO SAY A FEW WORDS ON ON THIS PIECE YOU HEARD THE COMMENT. GO AHEAD. YEAH.  SO YEAH, THE ON THE QUESTION OF WHAT DO YOU B WHAT DO SOME IDEAS FOR FINANCING FLOWS LOOK LIKE FOR A PROGRAM LIKE THIS IN BOSTON?  I THINK THERE'S I THINK THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF OPTIONS.  I THINK THAT SO TO START WITH THE SENIOR DEBT THE MORTGAGE SO THAT'S WHAT WHAT ADMINISTRATOR BROCK WAS JUST SAYING IS THE ROUGHLY TWO THIRDS OF THE TOTAL PROJECT COST IN IN ANY DEAL IS THE SENIOR MORTGAGE MOST LIKELY THAT IS GOING TO COME FROM MASS HOUSING AND THAT'S A THAT'S A PRODUCT PRODUCT THAT MASS HOUSING CHURNS OUT DAY AFTER DAY.  RIGHT. THEY'RE ISSUING THEY ISSUE MORTGAGES THROUGH THEIR OWN BONDING CAPACITY AND ALSO THROUGH ACCESS TO FEDERAL PROGRAMS LIKE FHA LOANS. SO IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S CASE AND IN ATLANTA AND IN SEVERAL OTHER PLACES THAT ARE EXPLORING THIS, THE PROGRAM THAT'S USED IS SOMETHING CALLED THE FHA RISK SHARE LENDING PROGRAM. AND I WON'T GO INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL UNLESS YOU HAVE REALLY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS WHICH I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER. BUT THE FHA RESCUE LENDING PROGRAM IS IS A HUD MORTGAGE TOOL THAT IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR MIXED INCOME MULTIFAMILY HOUSING AND IT HAS THIS KIND OF SET OF TERMS THAT REALLY MAKES IT GREAT FOR THESE TYPES OF PROJECTS.  THAT PROGRAM IS IT'S NOT USED BY EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY BUT MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND MASS HOUSING IS ALREADY A ONE OF THE BIGGEST USERS OF THAT PROGRAM IN THE COUNTRY FOR OTHER TYPES OF PROJECTS THAT THEY DO. SO THEY'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH IT AND I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR THEM BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW THEY NEED TO BE INVOLVED BUT I HAVE HAD PLENTY OF CONVERSATIONS WITH FOLKS AT MASS HOUSING AND THEY'RE AWARE THAT THIS MODEL EXISTS AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, COME TO SOME CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT IT. SO IT'S NOT A BRAND NEW THING TO THEM OR OTHER HOUSING FINANCE AGENCIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.  AND THEN THE NEXT PIECE THAT YOU NEED AFTER YOU GET THE THE MORTGAGE PART IS IS YOUR YOU KNOW, YOUR SHORT TERM CONSTRUCTION LOAN FROM YOUR REVOLVING FUND.  AND SO THE WAY THE FINANCING WORKS ON THAT IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND THE LATEST CASE IS THEY THEY CAPITALIZE THIS REVOLVING FUNDS MEANING THEY YOU KNOW THINK OF IT AS A AS A YOU'RE TRYING TO GET 50 OR $100 MILLION IN BUCKET RIGHT. THAT IS YOU'RE INVESTMENT FUND THE WAY THAT THEY GOT THAT $100 MILLION IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND AND $40 MILLION IN ATLANTA'S CASE WAS THEY ISSUED A GENERAL OBLIGATION TAXABLE BOND RIGHT THEY DIDN'T NEED TO USE THEIR TAX EXEMPT CAP. THEY DID IT WITH THE TAXABLE BOND. YOU COULD DO IT WITH TAXABLE OR TAX EXEMPT DEPENDING ON YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.  AND SO FOR $100 MILLION FOR A 20 YEAR BOND THAT MEANS THAT THEY ARE PAYING THE COUNTY IS PAYING SIX AND A HALF OF $1,000,000 A YEAR IN PRINCIPAL AND INTEREST WHICH IS YOU KNOW, FOR THEM YOU KNOW THEIR ANNUAL BUDGET IS IN THE BILLIONS SIX 6 MILLION BUCKS A YEAR IS NOT A HUGE CHUNK OF CHANGE TO THEM AND SO THEY'RE HAPPY TO COVER THAT.  BUT THE THE NICE THING IS IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S CASE WHEN THEY MAKE LOANS INTO THEIR PROJECTS FOR THAT CONSTRUCTION PERIOD, THEY PAY THEMSELVES THEY CHARGE THEMSELVES INTEREST RATE, YOU KNOW, NOT ZERO. THEY CHARGE THEMSELVES THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE 6% SOMEWHERE IN THAT RANGE COMPARED TO PRIVATE EQUITY INVESTORS WHO WANT 15, 16, 17% RATE OF RETURN AND THE INTEREST PAYMENTS THAT THEY PAY TO THEMSELF FROM THEIR PROJECTS GET RETURNED TO THAT ORIGINAL BOND ISSUANCE TO CAPITALIZE THE FUND. RIGHT. SO THE OUTCOME OF THAT IS GROSS YEAH. THE COUNTY'S PAYING SIX $7 MILLION A YEAR BUT ON NET THEY'RE ONLY PAYING LIKE ONE OR 2 MILLION A YEAR BECAUSE THE INTEREST PAYMENTS FROM THE PROJECTS COVER LIKE 80% OF THE BOND PAYMENTS EVERY YEAR.  SO AND THEN YOU START TO THINK ABOUT THE KIND OF LEVERAGE HOW MUCH INVESTMENT IS ACTUALLY OCCURRING AS A RESULT OF THIS. AND IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S CASE THEIR KIND OF CURRENT ESTIMATES ARE FOR 1 TO $2 MILLION PER YEAR FROM THE COUNTY NET THEY WILL BUILD $2 BILLION WORTH OF MIXED INCOME HOUSING OVER 20 YEARS WHICH IS YOU KNOW TERMS THAT THAT YOU KNOW THAT 1 TO $2 MILLION IT'S LIKE YOU'D BE KIND OF CRAZY NOT TO DO IT RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THE FINANCING IS STRUCTURED. YOU'RE JUST GETTING SO MUCH MIXED INCOME HOUSING OUT OF OUT OF A TOOL LIKE THIS.  IT'S IT'S SO POWERFUL IN THAT WAY. AND SO THEN THE LAST PIECE IS WHEN YOU WHEN YOU GET TO THE STABILIZED PRODUCT THAT ADMINISTRATOR BORCHERS WAS MENTIONING. RIGHT. YOU GET THROUGH THE CONSTRUCTION PERIOD AND THEN YOU GET TO STABILIZED YOU'RE ABLE THAT'S WHEN YOU FALL OFF YOUR REVOLVING FUND INVESTMENT BACK INTO YOUR BUCKET SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE IT READY TO GO TO ANOTHER PROJECT THE NEXT DAY AND YOU REPLACE WHEN YOU PULL IT OUT YOU CREATE A LITTLE GAP IN TOTAL COST OF YOUR PROJECT AND YOU NEED TO FILL THAT WITH SOMETHING IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY'S CASE THEY HAVE A NUMBER OF KIND OF MEZZANINE THAT LENDERS IN THE AREA SOME OF THEM WHO ARE KIND OF MISSION ORIENTED RIGHT LIKE MAYBE A CDF II OR A BANK WHO HAS CRT REQUIREMENTS THAT THEY WANT TO MEET OR THINGS LIKE THAT.  ONE THING THAT MY ORGANIZATION IS WORKING ON IS TRYING TO IDENTIFY LARGER INVESTORS LIKE PENSION FUNDS WHO MIGHT WANT TO CREATE A KIND OF PROGRAMMATIC APPROACH FOR THAT LONGER TERM MEZZANINE DEBT. SO YOU KNOW AND THAT MONEY IS AVAILABLE BUT WE'RE HOPING TO CREATE AN EVEN MORE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF NATIONAL SCOPE PROGRAMMATIC WAY TO GET THAT LAST PIECE OF CAPITAL THAT WOULD BE NEEDED FOR THESE PROJECTS.  BUT THANK YOU. HAPPY TO GO INTO MORE DETAIL ON ANY OF THOSE PIECES IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS BUT OTHERS TO JUST THANK YOU. I THINK WE REALLY NEED A BIG WHITEBOARD WITH SOME SOME VISUALS HERE IT'S HARD TO FOLLOW AND COMPLEX. I HAVE LOTS LIKE WE HAVE A VERY GOOD NEXT STEP AS CONSUL FITZGERALD GOT.  THANK YOU CHAIR AND THANK YOU ADMINISTRATOR BORG CHIEF DILLON FOR BEING HERE. I'VE HAD A BRIEF LESSON ON HOW THIS WORKS JUST YESTERDAY SO I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I JUST DID FOLLOW CLARA FOLLOW UP SOME CLARIFYING QUESTIONS ARE WE LOOKING FOR FOR THIS TYPE OF FINANCING THAT YOU TALK ABOUT? RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE NOT GETTING THE RATE OF RETURN FROM FROM THE REEDS AND OTHER FOLKS. RIGHT. AND WE'RE WE'RE NOT JUST DOING THE GRANT MONEY THAT'S GIVING THE MONEY OUT THE DOOR. THIS IS FILLING THAT MIDDLE GAP WHERE WE PUT MONEY IN AND WE ACTUALLY GET SOME BACK TO CREATE THIS REVOLVING LOAN FUND. ARE WE LOOKING AT PARTNERING WITH WE LOOK AT IT ONLY GROUNDUP I THINK IT WAS MIGHT HAVE BEEN ANSWERED FROM COUNCIL COLLECTORS AS QUESTIONS AS WELL SO YOU GUYS MIGHT HAVE JUST ON THIS BUT IS IT ONLY CITY OWNED PROPERTY GROUND UP OR IS IT IS THIS ALSO PARTNERING WITH A PRIVATE DEVELOPER TO TAKE SAY HEY WE COULD FILL THAT CHUNK OF YOUR FINANCING DECK AND FOR YOU TO PUT FORWARD THE PRIVATE PART RIGHT THERE IS THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PRIVATE DEVELOPERS AS WELL. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND. YEAH.  SO WHAT'S INTERESTING IS YOU COULD WITH THE REVOLVING FUND SO I THINK YOU COULD DO PROJECTS ON PUBLIC LAND RIGHT ON OUR STUFF. YEAH BUT YOU COULD ALSO JUST BASICALLY BY PUTTING THE EQUITY IN BY WHAT ARE CURRENTLY PRIVATE PROJECTS AND THAT'S WHERE IN MONTGOMERY THEY DID A FEW OF THAT PAUL WAS REFERRING TO A FEW OF THE PRIVATE DEVELOPERS WHO HAD PERMITTED PROJECTS WERE BASICALLY LIKE MY EQUITY PARTNERS HAVE ALL TAKEN THEIR AND GONE HOME COUNTY DO YOU WANT TO BE MY EQUITY PARTNER? SO WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE GIVING UP CONTROL SO THE PUBLIC SIDE RIGHT THERE IT'S NOW IT'S NOW A MONTGOMERY COUNTY OWNED PROJECT BUT FROM THE DEVELOPER'S PERSPECTIVE SITTING THERE WITH THE PERMITTED THING THEY WANT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. SO THEY'RE LIKE HEY, SURE.  SO WE LOOK AT THE PROJECTS THAT COME IN NOW IS IT JUST SEEING LIKE ARE WE LOOKING AHEAD TO SEEING OKAY, WHAT PROJECTS ARE COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE OR IS IT SORT OF AD HOC OF A WHERE WE GET TO INVEST IN CHOOSE OR DO WE HAVE AREAS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY WE WANT DEVELOPMENT TO OCCUR, WE'RE TRYING TO SPUR IT HERE SO WE CAN ADD THIS FINANCING IN OR IS IT JUST SAYING OKAY, WHAT ARE THE COUPLE PROJECTS THAT CAME IN THIS WEEKEND?  LET'S LOOK AT THEM ALL AND SEE IF ANY OF THEM FIT THE CRITERIA . SO I THINK I MEAN FIRST OF ALL RIGHT NOW WE'RE NOT REALLY IN A POSITION TO TO LOOK BECAUSE WE GOT TO HAVE THE YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THE MONEY RIGHT TO BE THE FIRST. BUT I GUESS IF WE WERE IF WE IF WE DID THIS I THINK THAT LIKE I THINK WHAT YOU WOULD WANT IS YOU'D WANT AND THIS GETS A LITTLE BIT BACK TO COUNCILOR MAYBE IS QUESTION YOU'D WANT TO HAVE A STRATEGIC PLAN FROM THE CITY SIDE OF WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO ACHIEVE ON THE PUBLIC SIDE AND SO THAT YOU YOU MIGHT GRAB AN OPPORTUNITY TO BUY SOMETHING FROM THE PRIVATE SIDE BUT YOU'D WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WANTED, RIGHT? NOT JUST LIKE BECAUSE SOME PRIVATE GUY IS IN TROUBLE HE'S LIKE HEY CAN I SELL THIS TO YOU? BUT I DO THINK THAT YOU'D PROBABLY ONE OF THE THINGS YOU IF WE HAD THIS MONEY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE COULD BE DOING WHICH WE CAN'T REALLY DO RIGHT NOW IS WE COULD LOOK AT THOSE 20,000 PERMITTED UNITS THAT AREN'T GETTING BUILT AND WE COULD WE COULD BE IN A POSITION TO SAY OH, WE REALLY WANT MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THIS PART OF THE CITY AND LOOK, THERE'S A PERMANENT DEAL BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BUILD IT ON A PRIVATE SIDE. LET'S JUST TAKE THAT RIGHT. LET'S JUST BUY IT AND LET'S BUILD IT RIGHT. SO SO I THINK YOU COULD I THINK IF YOU HAD THE REVOLVING FUND YOU WOULD WANT TO BE YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A KIND OF NORM OF BEING VERY AWARE OF WHAT THE PIPELINE WAS THE THINGS THAT HAD GOTTEN PERMITTED. THANK YOU. SO ASIDE FROM THESE 20,000 UNITS THAT ARE LEFT UNBUILT AT THE MOMENT, IF THERE IS A DECLINE IN DEVELOPMENT THEN OF COURSE THE OPTIONS DWINDLE, RIGHT? I MEAN THE PROGRESS THAT YOU'RE IT'S TIED TO THE THING BUT THE NICE THING IS BECAUSE YOU CAN JUST SAY NOW I'M GOING TO DO SOMETHING ON PUBLIC LAND.  YOU'RE NOT I MEAN OBVIOUSLY YOU WOULD NEED TO GET PERMANENT FOR THE THING ON PUBLIC LAND BUT YOU'RE NOT YOU'RE NOT HOSTAGE TO THE PRIVATE SIDE SORT OF DECISION MAKING AS MUCH AS YOU ARE OTHERWISE. SO I GUESS IN THAT MY FINAL SORT OF COMMENT OR QUESTION IS THE IN THIS FINANCING BECAUSE WE WOULD JUST ADD EVENTS SOME OF US WHERE THEY TALKED ABOUT THE FINANCING CYCLES AS WE KNOW IT MAY HAVE CHANGED POST-COVID . RIGHT. AND IT'S NOT LIKE OH WE'RE JUST IN IT AND IT'S AT THE THE INFRASTRUCTURE ITSELF OF WHERE WE EXIST. IT'S SORT OF THIS NEW FRONTIER OF HOW THINGS GO FORWARD. IS THIS FINANCING TIED TO THE TRADITIONAL CYCLES OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN LIKE IN FILINGS IN BANKING SECTOR OR ECONOMY CYCLES RIGHT WHERE WE MIGHT GO OKAY, WE CAN DO THIS. WE CAN'T WE CAN WE CAN THROUGHOUT THE YEARS OR IS THERE MORE IF THERE IS THIS FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE, DOES THIS ALSO FIT IN NICELY WITH WHATEVER THE FUTURE OF THAT ECONOMIC OUTLOOK IS?  YES. SO I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE THINK IS THAT THIS THIS SMOOTH THAT BOOM BUST CYCLE IT'S BASICALLY COUNTERCYCLICAL BECAUSE IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT LIKE THIS RIGHT RIGHT NOW WHERE YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE PRIVATE DEALS ON THE SIDELINES BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET FINANCED PRIVATELY THEY ACTUALLY ARE THERE FOR MORE INTERESTED IN BEING IN LIKE YOU KNOW, GIVING THEMSELVES UP TO A PUBLIC FINANCED ALTERNATIVE. RIGHT. SO THERE'S A KIND OF COUNTERCYCLICAL ASPECT AND IF IF THE PRIVATE SIDE WAS PRODUCING TONS OF HOUSING THEN WE'D PROBABLY ONLY HAVE THE PUBLIC SITES TO LOOK AT DOING THIS AT RIGHT. SO THAT WOULD BE KIND OF THE BUT THE THING IS LIKE FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE IF THAT WERE THE SITUATION THAT'D BE GREAT, RIGHT? BECAUSE YOU'D HAVE THE PRIVATE SIDE ITS ENGINE WOULD BE WORKING. SO I THINK YEAH THAT'S THE THEORY IS THAT AND I SAID THIS A LITTLE BIT EARLIER LIKE IT'S JUST IF YOU IF YOU THINK OF HOUSING AS THIS JUST ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL THING PEOPLE NEED IN ORDER TO STAY IN THE CITY THEN AT SOME POINT THOSE OF US WHO ARE POLICYMAKERS AND RESPONSIBLE FOR REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE THE CITY AND SERVING THEM JUST DON'T WANT TO BE HELD HOSTAGE ON THIS LIKE COMPLETELY ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF LIFE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON TO A BOOM BUST MARKET CYCLE, RIGHT LIKE IT'S JUST A BAD PLACE TO BE FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE. AND I SAID THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU JIM. THANK YOU.  LET ME TAKE SOME COMMENTARY YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO. YEAH, UM, I'LL JUST PAUSE AND WE'LL HAVE SOME PUBLIC COMMENT. I KNOW THAT MY MICHAEL'S HERE FROM THE HUD TENANTS SO WOULD YOU LIKE TO COME DOWN MICHAEL AND JUST FINISH MY LIST?  OKAY. THANK YOU. AND GIVEN THAT YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN THE HOUSING FIELD AND ALLOW YOU LIKE 5 MINUTES TO ADDRESS UH, GO AHEAD, MICHAEL. OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.  I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR HAVING ME WITH THIS OPPORTUNITY. MY NAME IS MICHAEL CAINE OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE MASTER ALLIANCE OF HUD TENANTS. WE'VE BEEN ORGANIZING TENANTS AND EXPIRING USE SUBSIDIZED HOUSING TO SAVE THEIR HOMES AS PERMANENTLY AFFORDABLE FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS. WE JUST WE ADDED IT UP. IT'S 13 AND A HALF THOUSAND UNITS STATEWIDE.  ABOUT EIGHT AND A HALF THOUSAND IN BOSTON INCLUDE ING 12 1408 RESIDENT OWNED DEVELOPMENTS WHICH ARE PERMANENTLY OUTSIDE OF THE MARKET AS A PERMANENTLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING.  IN MY PRIOR LIFE I WAS INVOLVED IN THE TENT CITY STRUGGLE. IT WAS A 13 YEAR STRUGGLE TO GET TENT CITY BUILT AND I WAS CHAIR OF THE BOARD DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PERIOD.  SHEILA WAS ON OUR BOARD AT THAT TIME AND SO THERE'S SOME LESSONS LEARNED ABOUT THAT WE WERE INTENTIONALLY BUILDING SOCIALLY OWNED HOUSING AND PUBLICLY OWNED LAND. IT WAS A VERY LAND PARCEL AND THE THE BOROUGH WAS VERY CREATIVE AND SUPPORTIVE AND SPLIT THE OWNERSHIP OF THE SITE SO THAT THEY HAVE A GROUND LEASE FOR 99 YEARS FOR THIS PERSON FOR THE LAND TENT CITY IS A NONPROFIT GOT A 99 YEAR LEASE TO BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING ABOVE IT AND THEN THE COUPLE PLACE DEVELOPERS WERE ABLE TO BUILD A GARAGE FOR THEMSELVES MOSTLY UNDERNEATH THAT. SO THAT WAS ONE MODEL. THERE WAS A SIMILAR ONE CALLED SINDHI THE SOUTHLAND NEIGHBORHOOD HOUSING INITIATIVE . A FEW YEARS LATER WHEN THE VRA HAD A NUMBER OF LAND PARCELS THAT WERE LEFT UNDER URBAN RENEWAL AND WE GOT A COMMITMENT FROM THE BOROUGH AT THAT TIME THAT IT WOULD BE ONE THIRD LOW INCOME FOR PEOPLE LESS THAN 50% OF THE MEDIAN ONE THIRD MODERATE FOR PEOPLE IN THE 50 TO 80% RANGE AND ONE THIRD MARKET ONE THIRD, ONE THIRD, ONE THIRD AND THAT WAS A SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM THAT BUILT ABOUT 330 APARTMENTS AND SEVEN SITES. SO THOSE ARE TWO EXAMPLES. WE DID IT HERE. WE CAN DO IT AGAIN. WE COULD BUILD 100 TENT CITIES IF THERE'S THE WILL AND THE POLITICAL SUPPORT FROM THE CITY ,SO TO SPEAK TO THE LEGISLATION TODAY.  IT'S A VERY EXCITING PROPOSAL. WE REALLY WANT TO COMMEND COUNCILOR SANTANA FOR FILING IT AND ALL OF YOU FOR SUPPORTING IT. BUT IT'S A NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT ELEMENT TO REALLY MAKE AFFORDABLE MIXED INCOME HOUSING WORK OUTSIDE OF THE MARKET. IT'S THE OTHER ELEMENTS THAT WE LEARNED IN HERE ARE PUBLIC OWNERSHIP OF THE LAND WHENEVER POSSIBLE OR TO TARGET THAT LAND WHENEVER POSSIBLE FOR SOCIALLY FOR SOCIAL HOUSING, PUBLIC FINANCING WHICH IS WHAT THE REVOLVING LOAN FUND WOULD DO AND OWNERSHIP SPONSORSHIP SHOULD BE PUBLIC OWNERSHIP PUBLIC ENTITIES SUCH AS THE BE A NONPROFIT IT SIDDIQUI'S A VERY ROBUST NETWORK IN BOSTON LAND TRUSTS OR RESIDENT OWNED CO-OPS LIKE SOME OF THE ONES THAT WE DEVELOPED. SO THE PRINCIPLE OF PUBLIC OWNERSHIP IS ANOTHER ELEMENT THE INTENT CITY WE SKEWED THE RENTS. THAT WAS AN ELEMENT WHICH I THINK IS IMPLICIT IN THE PUBLIC FINANCING MODEL WHERE YOU WOULD USE SOME OF THE MARKET RENTS TO SUBSIDIZE THE MODERATE INCOME RENTS. THE GAP BETWEEN OPERATING COSTS AND CONSTRUCTION COSTS THAT ARE BUILT INTO THE PROJECT THAT YOU GET FROM THE MARKET RENTS EXCESS RENT COULD BE USED TO INTERNALLY SUBSIDIZE RENT SO THAT WAS A PRINCIPLE THAT TENT CITY CAN ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THAT WAS STRUCTURED BUT THEY IS ONE ELEMENT.  IT'S ALSO WHAT VIENNA IS DOING NOW. I VISITED VIENNA TWICE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND MET WITH OFFICIALS THERE AND COMMUNITY GROUPS IN VIENNA. IT'S NOW ONE THIRD, ONE THIRD,  ONE THIRD MODEL AND THE ONE THIRD MARKET THEY CALL THEM CO-OP UNITS BUT THEY SELL OFF THE CALL UP DEVELOPMENTS BUT THEY SELL OFF THE MARKET OR USE THE MARKET TO SUBSIDIZE THE CO-OPS SO THEY'RE USING THAT IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AS A MODEL GOING FORWARD. SO SO I THOUGHT IT WAS A NECESSARY BUT INSUFFICIENT THE OTHER ELEMENTS THAT SHOULD BE WORKED IN ARE A SET ASIDE FOR TARGETED INCOME GROUPS SO THAT YOU REALLY MEET THE NEED OF PEOPLE IN THE CITY AND THE CITIES REPORT SHOWS 22,000 UNITS THAT ARE NEEDED FOR EXTREMELY LOW INCOME PEOPLE BY 2030. THOSE ARE PEOPLE THAT WILL BE HOMELESS IF THEY'RE NOT BUILT. SO HOW DO YOU GET THERE? WELL, THIS HOUSING MODEL WOULDN'T QUITE DO THAT. YOU NEED TO HAVE AN OPERATING SUBSIDY WORKED INTO IT AS WELL . I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY WAY AROUND THAT.  I JUST DID AN ARTICLE FOR AUMA AND MY COLLEAGUES BILL AND POINTED OUT THAT HIS LEGISLATION WHICH IS ALMOST IDENTICAL TO THIS WOULD REQUIRE A SUBSIDY EITHER SECTION EIGHT OR THE FAIR COST SUBSIDY WOULD BE GREAT OR MVP OR THE CITY ZONE RENT SUBSIDY SOME COMBINATION SO THAT EXTREMELY LOW INCOME PEOPLE CAN LIVE IN THESE MIXED INCOME DEVELOPMENTS. OTHERWISE YOU REALLY BUILDING MARKET AND MODERATE INCOME MAYBE WORKFORCE HOUSING WHICH IS GREAT AT ONE LEVEL BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THE CITY SO THAT THEY DO THAT IN 5 MINUTES. THANK YOU. YOU'RE JUST COMING UP ON YOUR FIVE WELL-DONE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU.  SO THEY CAN ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS AFTERWARDS ABOUT TENT CITY AND THE SINDHI PROGRAM WHICH I THANK YOU VERY MUCH. VISIT I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO THE LEAD SPONSOR COUNCILOR S.A. WHO QUESTIONS THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR TO THE ON THE WAY TO CHIEF DILLON THE ADMIN AND ADMINISTRATION AND THE COUNCIL HAVE SUPPORTED ADOPTING MY FRIEND CIVILIZATION PROGRAM BUT IT WILL REQUIRE ENABLING LEGISLATION TO IMPLEMENT FOR MOST CASES PUBLIC OWNERSHIP OF UNITS HAS ENABLED THE MONTGOMERY COUNTY H0C TO CAP RATE INCREASES AND INFLATION FOR THEIR TENANTS INCLUDING EVEN FOR MARKET RATE TENANTS. WE HAVE MORE PUBLICLY OWNED HOUSING HERE IN BOSTON WHERE WE NEED TO HAVE A LAW IN PLACE STABILIZE RENTS OR DO WE HAVE A POLICY IN PLACE LIKE HLC DOES TO CAP OFF THE VALUE INCREASES AND SO I THINK WHAT'S VERY, VERY INTERESTING ABOUT THIS MODEL IT'S SOMETHING THAT ADMINISTRATOR BOK SAID EARLIER THAT IF WE WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP A LOT OF I'M EXCITED BECAUSE WE WOULD NEED ADDITIONAL HOUSING. I'M ALSO EXCITED BECAUSE IF WE WERE ABLE TO DO THIS AND OWN MIXED INCOME DEVELOPMENTS OR PUBLICLY OWNED THEY REALLY COULD BE A LABORATORY FOR OUR BEST THINKING ON POLICY THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ADVANCE AT THE STATE HOUSE I'M SITTING HERE AND I JUST JOTTED DOWN THE WISH LIST RIGHT JUST CAUSE EVICTIONS WHICH WE'VE ALL WANTED FOR SO LONG RENT STABILIZATION THROW IN RIGHT TO COUNCIL RIGHT? SO ANY TIME THIS PUBLIC ENTITY WANTS TO EVICT WE MAKE SURE THAT SOMEONE'S GOT LEGAL REPRESENTATION. IT REALLY COULD BE THE PETRI DISH FOR EVERYTHING THAT WE WANT. IT COULD BE THE IDEAL LIKE HOUSING UNIVERSE IF YOU WILL. SO WHILE WE TOIL AND TRY TO GET REALLY WE NEED TO DO THAT CONTINUED LEGISLATION PASSED AT THE STATE HOUSE WE REALLY COULD START DEVELOPING BEST PRACTICES USING THIS PORTFOLIO OF PROPERTIES AS AS A PRIME EXAMPLE ABOUT HOW TO DO HOUSING AND HOW TO DO IT RIGHT.  IT'S REALLY GREAT. WELL THANK YOU AND I HOPE I HOPE WE I HOPE WE CAN BE A MODEL FOR THAT TOO. BOSTON GOING BACK TO TO HAVE I CAN I COME BACK AND THINK ABOUT THIS SO WE HAVE A LOT OF HOUSING UNITS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED FOR AND AND THEY'RE SITTING THERE I HAVE PROJECTS IN MY DISTRICT THAT HAVE BEEN SITTING THERE FOR TEN YEARS. I KNOW I'VE TALKED TO JAMERSON ABOUT LIKE HANG ON A MINUTE, WE PERMIT SOMETHING YOU CAN JUST SIT ON IT FOR TEN YEARS AND YOU KNOW WHAT? LET'S MOVE THIS ALONG A LITTLE BIT. HOW HOW DO YOU SEE AS INTERVENING IN A SITUATION WHERE PROJECTS ARE SITTING THERE AND CAN IS IS SORT OF PATHWAY TO INTERVENE IN THAT SITUATION AND GET IT GET IT MOVING? YEAH, YEAH. I MEAN IF IF WE HAD IF WE HAD A SOCIAL HOUSING REVOLVING FUND THEN IF WE SAW THAT HAPPENING WE WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO THINK THIS HAS TO COUNCILOR FITZGERALD'S QUESTION OR LATER LIKE WE WE COULD SAY OH THAT'S A PLACE WHERE YOU KNOW THE CITY WAS REALLY COUNTING ON THAT RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT HAPPENING. THERE WAS A LOT OF COMMUNITY SUPPORT FOR IT BECAUSE WE NEED MORE HOUSING THERE. IT'S NOT HAPPENING. HEY LIKE MR DEVELOPER WE'D LIKE TO JUST TAKE THAT OFF YOUR HANDS RIGHT AND MAKE THAT HAPPEN. AND SO THAT'S THE CASE OF IF YOU SEE THE NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE THAT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT MONTGOMERY, THE PROJECT THAT'S FEATURED THERE THAT HAS THE POOL AND EVERYTHING WHICH I VISITED IN NOVEMBER AND IT REALLY IS THAT BEAUTIFUL. IT IT WAS EXACTLY THE SITUATION. IT WAS ORIGINALLY A PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT THAT HAD GOTTEN PERMITTED AND JUST WASN'T GOING ANYWHERE.  AND AND SO WHEN THE DEVELOPER, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY PARTNERED UP WITH HHC TO BE THE PARTNER, THEY WERE ABLE TO BUILD THOSE UNITS THAT WERE SITTING ON THE SIDELINES BUT BUT THEY CHANGED THE AFFORDABILITY PROFILE LIKE PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT BEFORE SO THAT MORE OF THE UNITS BECAME AFFORDABLE.  IF I COULD JUST ADD TO THAT TOO WE ARE HAVING DEVELOPERS ARE CALLING I WOULDN'T SAY EVERY WEEK BUT CERTAINLY EVERY MONTH WITH A DEVELOPMENT THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER MAKE THE NUMBERS WORK ON AND WONDERING IF ONE IF WE HAVE AN INTERESTED OR IF THEY KNOW OF A NONPROFIT OR FOR PROFIT WHO DOES DEVELOPMENT AFFORDABLE HOUSING DEVELOPMENT WHETHER THEY'RE INTERESTED IN SELLING AND TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY COULD GET ADDITIONAL HOUSING AFFORDABLE HOUSING RESOURCES TO START MAKING THE NUMBERS WORK AND SWAP OUT SOME OF THEIR EQUITY NEEDS. SO THERE REALLY IS A MARKET RIGHT NOW TO ALL OF THOSE 20,000 UNITS. BUT I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A HEALTHY PERCENTAGE OF DEVELOPERS THAT ARE REALLY LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS SO AT THE TIME I THINK IS RIGHT AND IT'S A WEIRD THING THAT RIGHT NOW IT'S ACTUALLY EASIER IF YOU CAN GET THE AFFORDABLE RESOURCES IT IS EASIER TO BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THIS MOMENT THAN IT IS TO BUILD MARKET RATE HOUSING BECAUSE OF THE INTEREST RATE ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS BIZARRE AND COUNTERINTUITIVE BUT REALLY POINTS TO THE SORT OF COUNTERCYCLICAL NATURE OF OF WHAT THIS COULD BE. SO YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT YOU KNOW THAT WE DON'T NEED TO GO TO THE LEGISLATURE TO GET THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A WHOLE PETITION. WHAT WE HAVE DO TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. WELL, WE WOULD HAVE TO CREATE A REVOLVING FUND WHICH WOULD INVOLVE AN APPROPRIATION AND AS AS PAUL SAID, THAT APPROPRIATION COULD BE LIKE WHAT THE WHAT MONTGOMERY DID WHERE THEY ISSUED BONDS SO THEY ISSUED BONDS TO CREATE IT OR IF YOU HAD A BUNCH OF MONEY YOU COULD JUST PUT A BUNCH OF MONEY IN AND I SHOULD SAY EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T RESULT INVOLVE ACTION IN A LEGISLATURE CERTAINLY WE ARE WATCHING VERY CLOSELY THE CURRENT HOUSING BOND BILL HAS BOTH A SOCIAL HOUSING PILOT LANGUAGE THAT WAS PROPOSED BY REP CONNOLLY BUT INCLUDED IN THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSAL AND A MOMENTUM FUND THAT THAT WOULD BE HELD BY MASS HOUSING THE MOMENTUM FUND.  I THINK NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IT WOULD TURN INTO BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN AUTHORIZED YET. IT COULD BE JUST A WAY OF MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR THE PRIVATE SIDE TO GET SOME OF THESE STUCK DEVELOPMENT DEALS UNSTUCK ON THE HOUSING SIDE WHICH WOULD BE A GOOD THING TO DO BUT IT WOULDN'T INVOLVE FLIPPING PUBLIC OWNERSHIP IN THIS WAY. BUT THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY THAT IT COULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS OR THAT IT COULD COMBINE WITH THE SOCIAL HOUSING PIECE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. SO I WOULD SAY LIKE YOU KNOW, WE'RE INTERESTED THERE'S THE CITY SIDE, YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT WHAT WHAT AN APPROPRIATION WOULD LOOK LIKE BUT THERE'S ALSO THE STATE SIDE AND THERE COULD EVEN BE SOME KIND OF COMBO.  HEY, LET'S GO IN ON THIS TOGETHER APPROACH BETWEEN THE CITY AND STATE.  YEAH. THANK YOU, JUSTIN IF I COULD ADD ONE QUICK THING. GO AHEAD. ON THE QUESTION OF HOW TO KIND OF OPERATIONALIZE THE TAKE IN STALLED DEALS AND BRINGING THEM TO COMPLETION, THE JUST TO GIVE SOME KIND OF CONTEXT OF HOW IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY CASE WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WAS JACK MARX WHO'S THE CHIEF REAL ESTATE OFFICER AT THE PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, HE SENT AN EMAIL TO HIS PLANNING DEPARTMENT AND SAID CAN YOU GIVE ME A LIST OF PROJECTS IN THE COUNTY THAT HAVE BEEN PERMITTED AND ENTITLED BUT HAVE NOT BEGUN CONSTRUCTION? AND THEY SENT HIM THAT LIST THAT IS THAT TO HIM THAT IS THE WORST OF DEALS THAT ARE TO SECURE FINANCING. RIGHT? THEY WENT THROUGH EVERY PROCESS BUT HAVEN'T STARTED CONSTRUCTION BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET FINANCING. AND HE JUST KIND OF LOOKED THROUGH THOSE PROJECTS AND IDENTIFIED ONES THAT WOULD TAKE THAT THEY WERE IN A GOOD AREA WHERE HE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN AND TURNING THEM INTO THIS KIND OF MIXED INCOME PUBLIC DEVELOPMENTS AND HE JUST REACHED TO THE DEVELOPMENT PARTNERS AND YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY MADE A PITCH RIGHT OF HEY, WHAT IF I DID THIS INSTEAD?  SO YOU KNOW, THERE'S A THERE'S A LOT OF WAYS TO KIND OF BUILD A PIPELINE LIKE THAT AND IT'S IT'S IT'S REALLY NOT ALL THAT COMPLICATED AND FACT AND YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THESE YOU KNOW, AS WE JUST HEARD A LOT OF THESE DEVELOPERS ARE IN FACT REACHING OUT TO THE CITY. RIGHT. AND SAYING HEY, I'M STUCK.  CAN YOU HELP ME ? AND SO WHEN YOU HAVE A TOOL LIKE THIS KIND OF READY TO GO,  THEN YOU CAN START TO HELP THOSE PROJECTS AND ONE OTHER THING I'LL SAY IS WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF PROJECTS WHO ARE REACHING OUT TO YOU BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF STALLED DEALS FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THEN YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SELECTIVE. RIGHT. YOU CAN LOOK AT ALL SORTS OF DEALS AND SAY THIS ONE IS ACTUALLY A LOT BETTER.  I'M IT'S IN THIS LOCATION THAT I REALLY WANT TO SERVE.  I'M GOING TO I'LL BE ABLE TO MEET THESE OTHER SPECIFIC NEEDS I WANT TO DO WITH THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT.  AND SO, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN REALLY BE A REALLY KIND OF A PARTICIPANT IN THE HOUSING MARKET AND AND SHAPE IT IN A DIRECTION THAT YOU WANT AS A KIND OF CONSCIOUS POLICY POSITION. JUST REALLY KIND OF A POWERFUL TOOL. VERY GOOD. THANK YOU. CONSULTING DIVISION. THANK YOU CHAIR BRAYTON I SORT OF HAVE A QUESTION THAT KIND OF CONNECTS TO CONCILOR MEJIA HIS QUESTION REGARDING SOCIAL HOUSING AS A CONCEPT IS IT DEPENDENT ON IT BEING A MIXED INCOME ON THE MIXED INCOME MODEL AND IS IT BECAUSE LIKE YOU KNOW THERE YOU DO WANT SOME RATE OF RETURN EVEN IF IT ISN'T THE RATE OF PROFITABILITY THAT YOU WOULD GET ON THEM THAT YOU KNOW THE RICH ARE LOOKING FOR FOR EXAMPLE. SO I WOULD SAY IN A SENSE NO BECAUSE LIKE WHAT I SAID IN MY OPENING REMARKS IS THAT PUBLIC HOUSING A FORM OF SOCIAL HOUSING. RIGHT? IT'S A FORM OF OF GOVERNMENT OWNED. RIGHT. AND IN FACT IF WE JUST HAD A LOT MORE PUBLIC HOUSING, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE HOUSING TO NOT JUST THE EXTREMELY LOW INCOME FOLKS THAT THE FOCUS IS ON BECAUSE WE HAVE SUCH A LIMITED INVENTORY WE COULD IF WE WERE IF WE HAD TONS OF PUBLIC HOUSING UNITS WE WOULD HAS EVERYBODY IN THE EXTREMELY LOW LOW, LOW MIDDLE MIDDLE INCOME BRACKETS RIGHT BECAUSE OUR PUBLIC HOUSING ELIGIBILITY GOES ALL THE WAY UP TO 80% OF AMI. BUT WHAT WE SEE IS THAT WE'VE GOT THIS YOU KNOW, WE'RE CONTROLLING 10,000 UNITS AND WE'VE GOT 42,000 FAMILIES ON THE WAITLIST AND SO THE FOCUS IS VERY MUCH ON HOUSING FOLKS OUT OF HOMELESSNESS AND THE EXTREMELY LOW INCOME BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THAT'S WHAT ONLY WE CAN DO RIGHT? THAT THE MARKET'S JUST NOT GETTING THERE. AND SO TO MICHAEL'S POINT LIKE THAT'S REALLY OUR LIKE THAT'S OUR FOCUS OUR MISSION DRIVEN FOCUS. BUT OF COURSE IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TOOK A APPROACH AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL THAT WAS SIMILAR TO WHAT SINGAPORE DOES AND JUST SAID HEY, WE JUST WANT TO SECURE HOUSING FOR PEOPLE SO THAT THEY CAN LIVE THEIR LIVES AND FLOURISH AND YOU KNOW, FROM A SINGAPOREAN PERSPECTIVE IT'S RESULTED IN LIKE A LOT OF ECONOMIC BENEFIT BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS JUST LIKE ABLE TO DO ALL THESE THINGS, START BUSINESSES, BE ENTREPRENEURIAL WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT LOSING THEIR HOUSING, RIGHT? SO IF WE HAD A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT TOOK THAT APPROACH THEN LIKE LOCAL JURISDICTIONS LIKE OURS EVEN THE STATE WOULDN'T NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE GENERATE HOUSING PRODUCTION RIGHT. BUT SHORT OF THE SURE BUT THE PROBLEM IS THE CITY OF BOSTON DOESN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO JUST ,YOU KNOW, TRIPLE THE NUMBER OF UNITS WE ARE MAKING A REAL COMMITMENT TO PUTTING RESOURCES INTO FIGURING OUT HOW TO CREATE THESE 3000 ADDITIONAL UNITS THAT WE CAN UNDER A FAIR COST LIMIT AND THAT YOU KNOW, WE DO THAT IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS THAT'LL BE YOU KNOW, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT COMMITMENT FOR THIS CITY TO NEW SOCIAL HOUSING BUT PUBLIC HOUSING RIGHT IN A GENERATION. RIGHT.  SO SO I THINK LIKE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IT'S LIKE IT'S IT INCLUSIVE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT SOCIAL HOUSING IS INCLUSIVE OF THAT IT'S INCLUSIVE OF THAT. OKAY. BUT IT'S BUT I THINK THAT BUT THE THING WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE IS THAT JUST BUILDING THE DEEPLY AFFORDABLE STUFF IT DOESN'T REVOLVE MONEY BACK,  RIGHT? SO WE JUST HAVE TO KNOW THAT SO IT'S LIKE THAT WE'RE GOING TO SPEND MONEY ON DOING THE BENEFIT OF THE MIXED INCOME MODEL IS TWOFOLD ONE IS PROVIDING YES, HOUSING AT ALL THESE DIFFERENT LADDER LEVELS. THE OTHER IS REVOLVING BACK AND MICHAEL REFERRED TO IT EARLIER. RIGHT. EVEN INTENSITY YOU'RE SKEWING YOU'RE TAKING LIKE THE MARKET RUNS TO CROSS-SUBSIDIZE THE CO-OP UNITS AND AND THAT IS GOING TO BE THAT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE PUSH PULL SO FOR INSTANCE LIKE I ALSO REALLY LIKE THIS IDEA OF WHAT MONTGOMERY DOES OF HAVING LIKE RENT STABILIZATION EVEN FOR THE MARKET UNITS JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE SAYING HEY PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO LIVE IN FEAR OF LIKE THEIR RENT GOING UP 25% LIKE NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY MAKE LIKE THAT'S A CRAZY THING.  THE FLIP SIDE IS IF YOU'RE USING THE MARKET UNITS TO CROSS-SUBSIDIZE THE LOW AND MIDDLE ONES THEN YOU CAN'T LET THE MARKET UNITS PLATEAU TO FLAT OR GO DOWN BECAUSE THEN THAT THE THEM AS AN ENGINE OF PROVIDING THE OTHERS WILL REDUCE. SO YOU JUST HAVE TO BE REALLY CLEAR EYED ABOUT THE CHOICES YOU'RE MAKING AND I THINK LIKE IF IF WE HAD INFINITE RESOURCES TO HAND I WOULD JUST SAY LET'S JUST BUILD HOUSING FOR ALL BOSTONIANS STARTING WITH THE LOWEST INCOME ONES AND JUST WORK OUR WAY UP RIGHT?  THAT'S WHERE LIKE THE PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY IS ALWAYS GOING TO COME FROM LIKE WE JUST THINK WE SHOULD HOUSE THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE FIRST THE WHOLE WAY UP. BUT IF I CAN CREATE FIVE TIMES THE AMOUNT OF HOUSING BY HAVING CAPITAL THAT REVOLVES, THEN IN THE LONG RUN I CAN ACTUALLY HELP MORE OF THE LOW INCOME PEOPLE BY DOING THAT. SO THAT'S THAT'S KIND OF THE LIKE YOU KNOW, TRADE OFFS THAT WE THINK ABOUT OKAY, CAN YOU I'M GOING TO I DO LIKE THE MODEL THAT USED TO BE I LIKE IT SO KIND TO ME YOU'RE NEXT. DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION?  THANK YOU. I AM CURIOUS WHO WOULD BE THE LANDLORD GUYS?  SO I THINK I THINK WE WOULD WANT IT TO BE THE HOUSING AUTHORITY BECAUSE I THINK THAT AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE COULDN'T. SO WHAT MONTGOMERY DOES IS THEY'RE THE LANDLORD BUT THEY HIRE A PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANY TO RUN THE DAY TO DAY AND YOU COULD DO THAT LIKE IT WOULDN'T NEED TO BE OUR PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANY BECAUSE YOU KNOW I MEAN IT ALL DEPENDS IF YOU HAD MORE MONEY IF WE HAD THE KIND OF MONEY THAT YOU GET FROM MARKET HOUSING WE COULD FUND A BETTER PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANY SO IT COULD ALL WORK. BUT THE KEY THING IS WHO'S THE OWNER, RIGHT? SO I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT FOR IT TO BE THE PUBLIC ENTITY AND AND IN THE HOUSING AUTHORITY IS SET UP TO BE AN OWNER OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS WHICH FOR INSTANCE THE CITY IS NOT SET UP TO DO SO THERE'S LIKE A BUNCH OF REGULATORY THINGS THAT'S HARD FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON TO OWN HOUSING BUT EASY FOR US TO OWN HOUSING EVEN IF IT WAS MARKET. SO THAT BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT QUESTION. THAT'S WHY I ASK WHO IS WHO IS OH ONLY ONE QUESTION AND ONE QUESTION. WELL, I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE WATCHED THE TAPE Y'ALL. I'M GOING TO LIKE I'LL COME RIGHT BACK TO YOU COMES TO ME . I'M TRYING TO GIVE EVERYBODY A FAIR CHANCE.  CONSUL COLLETTE IS GONE AND COUNCILOR FITZGERALD DID YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS PLEASE? YES. PATRICK FITZGERALD WE TALKING ABOUT THE APPROPRIATION OF MONEY NEEDED RIGHT TO KICK THIS THING OFF GIVEN THAT WE POTENTIALLY HAVE TO TIGHTEN THE BELT IN THE FUTURE YEARS, HOW MUCH MONEY ARE WE TALKING AND DO WE HAVE ENOUGH TO SUPPORT IT WHILE ALSO PROVIDING ALL THE OTHER SERVICES PEOPLE ARE INTENDING US TO PROVIDE?  YEAH. YEAH. SO I MEAN I THINK YOU YOU HEARD FROM PAUL ABOUT THE SCALE THAT OTHER PLACES HAVE DONE SO ATLANTA HAS PUT 40 INTO THEIR INITIAL THING. MONTGOMERY'S PUT 50 IN INITIALLY AND THEN NOW DOUBLED IT TO 100. I THINK THAT FOR THESE DEALS YOU KIND OF NEED TO BE AND NOT LIKE WOULD SAY IN BOSTON ATLANTA'S CHEAPER THAN BOSTON, RIGHT? SO YOU PROBABLY NEED TO BE FOR IT TO LIKE DO A SUBSTANTIAL FIRST DEAL. YOU PROBABLY HAVE TO BE IN THAT LIKE 60 MIL LIKE RANGE ROUGHLY. BUT THE THE QUESTION OF HOW YOU FINANCE IT. SO IF IF YOU HAVE A CHUNK OF MONEY TO PUT IN THAT YOU ADD IN THE NICE THING ABOUT THIS IS IT'S NOT LIKE AN OPERATING YEAR ON IT RIGHT SO IF YOU SAY OH IF RIGHT NOW I HAVE A CHUNK OF MONEY THAT I CAN PUT IT IN YOU COULD JUST PUT THAT MONEY IN IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CHUNK OF MONEY THEN YOU CAN DO WHAT PAUL TALKED ABOUT WHERE THE AT THE MONTGOMERY FOLKS HAVE BONDED FOR IT SO THEY'VE THEY'VE CAPITALIZED THAT RIGHT AND GENERATED UPFRONT BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR IT AT 1000000 TO 2 MILLION A YEAR FOR LIKE A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. SO YOU SO IT KIND OF DEPENDS I DON'T WANT TO I, I FEEL LIKE ASK ME AGAIN ONCE THE ONCE YOU GUYS HAVE HAD THE BUDGET PRESENTATION AND THE CFO HAS BEEN IN TO TALK ABOUT OVERALL STUFF BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO MOVE INTO THAT LANE BUT BUT YEAH I THINK THAT'S THE THAT'S THE GIST YEAH THANK YOU. I HAVE A FOLLOW UP QUESTION. I'LL GET MY NEXT ROUND. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.  I'M GOING TO COME BACK ON TO KANSAS AND TURNER GOOD THANK YOU. JUST FOLLOWING UP ON COUNCILOR FITZGERALD'S QUESTION DOES EXIST DOES USING MAKE INCOME UNITS HELP TO MAKE THE FINANCING MAKE MORE SENSE BECAUSE OF IT INVOLVES BACK END INVOLVES BACK INCOME COULD WE DO THIS BY SETTING UP ASIDE MONEY INITIALLY AND THEN AND THEN AND THEN NOT NEEDING TO LIKE KEEP APPROPRIATING MORE MONEY LATER DOWN THE LINE? YEAH THAT'S EXACTLY THE IDEA IS THAT THE MONEY KEEPS COMING BACK INTO THE REVOLVING FUND AND ALSO DOESN'T JUST COME BACK BUT ALSO GENERATES RATE. SO I THINK LIKE PAUL IS IT FAIR TO SAY IN MONTGOMERY IT'S IT'S NOT JUST THAT THE MONEY'S COME BACK TO THEM BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY MAKING A RETURN ON IT. YEAH WELL SO THERE'S A COUPLE OF PIECES TO THAT I'LL TRY TO ANSWER REAL QUICKLY BUT SO THE WHEN THEY THEY HAVE THEIR BUCKET WITH $100 MILLION IT'S THE REVOLVING LOAN FUND AND THEY MAKE A LOAN FROM THAT BUCKET INTO AN INDIVIDUAL PROJECT THAT THEY'RE BUILDING ON THAT LOAN THEY PAY THEMSELVES BACK 5% INTEREST THE MONEY THEY'RE PAYING THEMSELVES BACK COVERS THE BOND PAYMENTS FOR THAT THE BOND THEY ISSUED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. RIGHT. THEY HAVE TO PAY THAT BOND EVERY YEAR THE INTEREST THEY CHARGE THEMSELF COVERS MOST OF THAT BOND PAYMENT WHERE THEY MAKE RETURN IS IS NOT ON THE LOANS THEMSELVES INTO THE PROJECTS BUT BECAUSE THEY'RE THE OWNER. PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY IS THE OWNER OF THE PROJECT AND IT HAS THIS MIX OF INCOMES IN THE BUILDING THEY MAKE OPERATING INCOME JUST ON RUNNING AND OWNING THAT BUILDING. RIGHT. AND THAT IS WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO BUILD EQUITY IN THEIR PORTFOLIO. AND JUST TO GIVE A QUICK EXAMPLE OF OF WHY THAT'S VALUABLE FOR A PUBLIC HOUSING AUTHORITY, MONTGOMERY COUNTY JUST DID A PROJECT WHERE THEY THERE'S ANOTHER NEW BRAND NEW BUILDING CLASS A BUILDING WITH LIKE A SPA AND POOL AND EVERYTHING AND THEY HAVE 100 FORMER PUBLIC HOUSING SENIORS WHO ARE LIVING IN THAT BUILDING THE HUD MONEY WAS NOT ENOUGH TO COVER THE COST OF PUTTING THOSE UP FOR THOSE VERY AFFORDABLE, EXTREMELY LOW INCOME RENTS.  THE WAY THEY WERE ABLE TO PAY FOR IT IS THERE WAS ANOTHER MIXED INCOME PROPERTY THAT THEY OWNED NEXT DOOR THAT THEY HAD PAID THE MORTGAGE DOWN ON FOR 15 YEARS. WELL THEY REFINANCED TO THAT AND PULLED EQUITY OUT OF THAT OTHER BUILDING THAT THEY OWNED AND PUT IT INTO THIS NEW BUILDING. RIGHT. SO IF YOU HAVE A PORTFOLIO IF YOU HAVE BUILDINGS THAT YOU OWN AND PAYING THE MORTGAGE ON, YOU'RE BUILDING EQUITY YOU CAN USE THAT YOU CAN USE THAT EQUITY TO REINVEST ELSEWHERE IN YOUR PORTFOLIO WHICH IS THAT'S KIND OF THE MEDIUM TO LONGER TERM REALLY SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT TO HOUSING AUTHORITIES THAT OF HAVING OF OWNING THE MIXED INCOME ASSETS.  SO THERE'S MULTIPLE KIND OF PLACES WHERE YOUR GENERATING VALUE FOR YOUR HOUSING AUTHORITY THAT YOU CAN USE FOR MORE AFFORDABILITY ELSEWHERE.  YEAH. IF I COULD JUST ADD ONE QUICK THING TOO I THINK IT'S WORTH IT'S BEEN STATED BUT IT'S WORTH PROBABLY EMPHASIZING HERE AT THIS POINT THAT THE NICE THING ABOUT THIS MODEL IS NOT LINING UP FOR OTHER RESOURCES, RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT PIPELINES THAT GO OUT FOR YEARS WHERE WE'RE I DON'T EVEN KNOW AFTER ARPA HOW WE'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY EVEN KEEP THOSE WONDERFUL PROJECTS MOVING FORWARD. THEY NEED CREDITS. THEY NEED SOFT DEBT, THEY NEED GAP FILLER. AND SO THIS IS A SORT OF A SEPARATE MODEL THAT WITH AN INFUSION OF LOW COST CAPITAL FROM THE CITY WOULDN'T IN THEORY HAVE TO COMPETE FOR THOSE RESOURCES UNLESS WE WERE UNLESS WE WANTED TO UNLESS WE THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, A PARTICULAR DEAL, NEEDED A LITTLE SOMETHING AND WANTED TO EMPHASIZE A CERTAIN OR SERVE A CERTAIN POPULATION, ETC. THAT'S WHAT I'M EXCITED ABOUT. IT'S NOT COMPETING FOR THAT FOR ALL OF OUR OTHER RESOURCES. YEAH I TOTALLY AGREE. I THINK A WAY TO THINK ABOUT THAT FOR COUNCILORS IS THAT LIKE THE STATE HAS ROUGHLY 800 MILLION IN HOUSING LIKE TECH LIKE A YEAR WHICH ARE THESE THESE TAX CREDITS RIGHT THAT HELP US PRODUCE AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND I THINK A REALLY PAINFUL THING ABOUT THE ECOSYSTEM RIGHT NOW THE AFFORDABLE ECOSYSTEM IS THAT WE HAVE THESE CELEBRATIONS ABOUT PROJECTS THAT HAVE GOTTEN AWARDS RIGHT LIKE THEY GOT THIS TAX CREDIT AWARDS. BUT THE TRUTH IS ALL THOSE PROJECTS ARE JUST GETTING AWARDS OUT OF THIS EXISTING PIE. SO IF IT HADN'T GONE TO THIS PROJECT IT WOULD HAVE GONE TO THIS OTHER PROJECT THAT'S ACTUALLY NOW IN THE LINE DIDN'T GET FUNDED THIS YEAR SO IS WAITING FOR NEXT YEAR OR AT THIS POINT PROBABLY TWO YEARS FROM NOW LIKE WE'RE KIND OF HAVE LIKE A THREE YEAR BACKUP AND PROJECTS. SO WHAT'S TOUGH IS IT'S AMAZING THAT THE STATE PUTS AS MUCH RESOURCE AS WE DO AND THAT WE HAVE SO MANY NON PROFIT DEVELOPERS AND FOR PROFITS TOO AND LIKE AND THE PUBLIC SIDE LIKE INVESTING IN HOUSING PRODUCTION BUT THERE'S THIS DYNAMIC WHERE WE'RE ALL COMPETING FOR THE SAME POOL OF RESOURCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE FEDERALLY AND SO BEING ABLE TO CREATE LIKE HEY HERE'S A SET OF DEALS THAT AREN'T WAITING ON THAT PLUS WHEN YOU WAIT ON THAT WHEN YOU WAIT FOR THREE YEARS FOR TAX CREDITS, YOUR COSTS ESCALATE IN THE MEANTIME SO YOU CAN GET IN THIS TRAP WHERE YOU FINALLY GOT TAX CREDITS BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO RE PENCIL ALL THE NUMBERS AND YOUR CONTRACTORS ARE ALL LIKE YEAH, THAT'LL BE 12 25% MORE, RIGHT? AND YOU'RE LIKE SHOOT THAT ISN'T WHAT I CALCULATED FOR. SO LIKE TIME IS MONEY IN THIS AND IF WE COULD HAVE A TRANCHE OF PROJECTS THAT COULD JUST MOVE LIKE MONTGOMERY COUNTY DOES A BUNCH OF LIKE TECH PROJECTS BUT THEY'RE NOT THE PROJECTS THAT THEY'RE DOING WITH THE REVOLVING FUND SO THEY JUST HAVE TWO PARALLEL STREAMS . I KNOW THAT CHIEF DILLON HAS A CHANGE OF HEART HER STOP.  THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE AND I THINK WE'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION. THIS IS EXCITING.  THANK YOU AND LOTS OF POTENTIAL HERE THAT WE NEED TO KEEP EXPLORING AND SEE IF WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN. SO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. THANK YOU. THANKS FOR HAVING ME . I'LL STAY. AND WHAT WAS I A COUNSELOR AND COUNSELOR AND LOUIJEUNE THANK YOU, SHEILA. I LOVE IT. SORRY IF YOU'VE DONE. I LOVE IT IF YOU COULD JUST LIKE LISTEN AS YOU WALK OUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK COULD BE REALLY HELPFUL THAT I'VE JUST BEEN THINKING ABOUT IS LIKE IF THIS CITY OR EITHER THE OFFICE OF HOUSING OR MAYBE IT'S US SOMEONE CREATE THE SENSE OF THIS IS THIS IS WHO WE HAVE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AT 30% AM I THIS IS WHAT OUR VISION IS FOR WHAT HOUSING SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO THEM. THOSE WERE AT 20%, THOSE AT 40% 50%.  DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU ARE DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT YOU HAVE THAT WE ARE PUTTING YOU ON UP? THERE'S A PATHWAY TO HOMEOWNERSHIP OR ARE YOU APPLYING FOR 80 UNITS? THIS IS WHAT OUR VISION IS BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT 50% AM I THE MARKET ISN'T GOING TO BE THERE FOR YOU. THE MARKET IS NOT EVEN THERE FOR THOSE WHERE I AM 100% AM I SO I LOVE THAT. I LOVE LIKE THAT VISUALIZATION OF PEOPLE AT THE DIFFERENT AM I LEVELS. I THINK IN PART WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ADP, PART OF THE PRESSURE ON ADP IS FOR IT TO BE FOR EVERYONE AND YOU KNOW THAT WAS CREATED REALLY FOR WORKING PROFESSIONALS. SO THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE ALL OF THESE HOUSING NEEDS FOR ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT AM I PERCENTAGES I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A VISUALIZATION OF EVEN THIS IDEA THAT I SUPPORT AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE LEANING INTO OUR BONDING AUTHORITY LIKE WHO ARE WE IMAGINING IT FOR AND THEN FOR US TO REALLY THINK ABOUT WHERE IS THE I THINK THAT VISUALIZATION COULD HELP US AT THE VERY LEAST WHERE'S A NEED? MAYBE WE KNOW THIS BUT I THINK IT COULD HELP THE PUBLIC.  I THINK IT COULD HELP US. I THINK IT COULD HELP OUR INSTITUTIONS. WE'RE TRYING TO ADVOCATE FOR MORE STUDENT HOUSING. WHY THAT NEEDS THERE. I WOULD THAT JUST SOMETHING THAT I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO SEE MAYBE A PARTNERSHIP WOULD BE EXAMPLES OF HOUSING TO REALLY JUST HELP US UNDERSTAND BECAUSE EVERYONE'S ALWAYS LIKE OH IT'S AFFORDABLE BUT NOT FOR ME BUT WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO DO THE NATURAL FOR NATURALLY OCCURRING AFFORDABLE HOUSING THAT'S FOR FOLKS WE THINK ABOUT THAT FOR FOLKS WHO ARE AT THE 60% AMI OR 80% AM I IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VERY LOW YOU KNOW, 0% 0% WHERE ARE YOU RIGHT. IS THAT HOUSING? AND I JUST THINK THAT THAT COULD BE HELPFUL FOR US. IT CAN JUST BE HELPFUL FOR POLICY MAKING. SO THAT'S NOT A QUESTION.  IT'S AN IDEA THAT I JUST WANTED TO PUT UP. WE CAN DO THIS BECAUSE WE HAVE WE HAVE THE DATA. WE KNOW WHAT WE HAVE. WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE. WE KNOW WHAT THE NEED IS. WE CAN PULL THOSE PIECES. I WOULD LOVE, LOVE, LOVE TO SEE THAT. THANK YOU.  THANK YOU, CHIEF DILLON.  UM, COUNCILOR MEJIA YOU HAD ANOTHER QUESTION I BELIEVE I DO. THANK YOU, CHAIR.  SO AGAIN THANK YOU, SHEILA YOU GUYS ARE MY HERO.  THANK YOU. AND I DON'T GIVE A LOT OF COMPLIMENTS SO YOU KNOW YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE THAT RISKS.  ALL RIGHT, SO I SO I WANT TO GO BACK TO I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT SO IF YOU ARE THE LANDLORD THEN I'M GOING TO ASSUME THAT WHATEVER PROFITS WE MAKE YOU ALL ARE THE ONES WHO ARE MANAGING THOSE PROFITS. RIGHT. AND IF THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO SELL WOULD YOU KNOW NO I THINK THAT YOU DON'T HAVE YEAH WE WILL MAKE THAT QUESTION.  I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT MY QUESTION. I JUST BUT I AM GOING TO MAKE SOMETHING ELSE. MY QUESTION IS THAT WE FILED A HEARING ORDER AROUND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT HOUSING FOR MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES RIGHT.  AND YES, EVERYONE NEEDS AFFORDABLE HOUSING. WE HAVE BOSTON RESIDENTS BUT WE ALSO HAVE A A LARGE NUMBER OF MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES WHO CAN BENEFIT FROM THIS CONVERSATION . AND SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT WOULD AFFORDABLE HOUSING PUBLIC HOUSING LOOK LIKE FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES WHO ARE NOT MEETING THE FINANCIAL THRESHOLDS TO STAY HERE?  YEAH. SO I ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG BENEFITS WITH THIS MODEL WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT KIND OF LIKE MIDDLE INCOME TRANCHE RIGHT. AND THE IDEA THAT YOU KNOW CERTAINLY IF WE WERE DOING THAT ON PUBLIC LAND AND IF IT WAS WAS CITY MONEY, I THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE WAYS TO HAVE A PREFERENCE FOR, YOU KNOW, FOLKS WHO ARE WORKING FOR PUBLIC ENTITIES. I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO THERE ARE SOME THERE ARE SOME YOU'D HAVE TO MAKE SURE IT WAS ALIGNED WITH FAIR HOUSING RULES. RIGHT. LIKE ALL KINDS OF THINGS. BUT I THINK THAT YOU BECAUSE IT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE LIKE CITY MONEY, RIGHT THERE'S A WAY TO KIND OF BE LIKE HEY, WE'RE TRYING TO HELP MAKE SURE THAT THAT WE CAN KEEP LIKE TEACHERS AND FOLKS WHO ARE JUST RIGHT ALL PUBLIC WORKS ALL THESE JOBS WHERE WE HAVE A RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT AND ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE CITIES IN AMERICA. RIGHT. THAT THERE'S LIKE A CRITICAL NEED THERE AND AND I THINK THAT I THINK THERE'D BE A REALLY GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT. ABSOLUTELY. I THINK ANYTHING THAT GETS DEVELOPED LIKE THIS UNDER THE BCCI'S UMBRELLA, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR LIKE LONG TERM COVENANT ON RATE KEEPING TO BE HOUSING AND NOT SELLING AND THAT'S NOT THAT'S NOT KIND OF OUR LINE OF WORK. AND I WILL SAY THE OTHER THING IS THAT YOU KNOW FROM AND THIS WAS ALLUDED TO BY PAUL BUT IT'S WORTH SAYING THAT ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF DOING THIS TYPE OF THING UNDER THE HOUSING AUTHORITY UMBRELLA IS THAT SOME OF THE PROFITS THAT YOU GET OUT OF IT YOU CAN PUT INTO THE PURE PUBLIC HOUSING THAT'S NEEDS INVESTMENT WHERE YOU'RE NOT GETTING INVESTMENT FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. RIGHT. SO THAT'S PART OF WHAT THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO IN MONTGOMERY IS WHEN THEY HAVE THOSE REALLY LOW INCOME SENIORS WHO ARE IN PUBLIC HOUSING AND THE FEDS ARE JUST GIVING YOU PENNIES ON A DOLLAR FOR WHAT YOU NEED, THEY'VE GOT SOME OF THEIR OWN. YEAH. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL ENVISION ACROSS THE CITY NOT JUST IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE NEIGHBORHOODS LIKE WE WOULD SEE THIS ACROSS. ALL RIGHT. NOT JUST DORCHESTER THAT'S VERY RELEVANT AND IN FACT IN FACT FOR THE FAIRCLOTH UNITS, HUD HAS A REQUIREMENT RELATED TO AFFIRMATIVELY FURTHERING FAIR HOUSING THAT WE AIM TO PUT THE MAJORITY OF THOSE AND NOT JUST IN THAT WE ACTUALLY DO PUT THE MAJORITY OF ANY NEW UNITS WE CREATE IN NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE CITY THAT DON'T ALREADY HAVE MOST OF THE PUBLIC HOUSING. SO THERE'S ACTUALLY A LEGAL REQUIREMENT ON US WHICH I THINK IS GREAT BECAUSE WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE IT IN MORE NEIGHBORHOODS THINKING COUNCILOR SANTANA I'M SORRY I BEG YOUR PARDON. YOU KNOW BE IT'S OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE IF IT'S JOE THANK YOU CHAIR THANK YOU ADMINISTRATOR FOR STICKING AROUND TRYING TO WHICH QUESTION TO GO WITH HERE IT'S A SO WE TALK ABOUT THE PRICE OF TAKING DEVELOPMENTS OFF OF PROPERTY PROJECTS OFF OF DEVELOPER'S HANDS ARE ARE WE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH ANY OTHER PRIVATE DEVELOPER? WHY WOULD THEY SELL TO US RATHER THAN TO SOMEBODY ELSE THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO OUTBID OR PAY MORE OR GREATER?  THEY PROBABLY AND THEY PUSH IT. WE CAN'T DO IT. WE DON'T THINK ANYONE ELSE CAN TOO.  RIGHT. SO I MEAN I UNDERSTAND THAT PUSHING BUT CAN WE COMPETE IN TAKING SOME OF THOSE PROJECTS OFF TO ACTUALLY GET THEM GOING? YEAH. SO BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED THE SAME LEVEL OF RETURN WE WE SHOULD ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO OFFER A MORE COMPETITIVE PRICE NOW WE AND ACTUALLY I THINK PAUL IS SORT OF ALLUDING TO THIS BUT YOU CAN ALSO CREATE A KIND OF REVERSE COMPETITION WHERE YOU SAY I HAVE A REVOLVING FUND BUT I'M ONLY INVESTING AND I'M ONLY BUYING THE PROJECT THAT GIVES US THE PUBLIC SIDE THE BEST DEAL RIGHT ? BECAUSE THE THING YOU WOULDN'T WANT IS YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO BUY FROM PRIVATE DEVELOPERS AT INFLATED PRICES BECAUSE YOU WERE THE CITY, RIGHT? SO YOU'D ACTUALLY WANT TO CREATE A BIT OF A COMPETITION BETWEEN FOLKS LOOKING FOR THE RESOURCE. SO I THINK LOOK, IF IF SOMEBODY GOT A PRIVATE DEVELOPER MEANT PERMITTED IN OUR OLD ZERO INTEREST RATE ENVIRONMENT AND THEY COULD MAKE A TON OF MONEY ON THE PRIVATE EQUITY SIDE LIKE YEAH THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO US LOOKING FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY BUT THEN BECAUSE AND BUT THE NICE THING IS LIKE WE'RE NOT WE'RE NOT OUT OF LUCK BECAUSE WE HAVE PUBLIC LAND RIGHT? WHICH ISN'T WHAT A NORMAL PRIVATE LIKE A NORMAL PRIVATE INVESTOR IF THEY CAN'T BUY ANY OF THE STUFF ON THE MARKET THEY CAN'T DEVELOP ANYTHING. BUT WE'RE NOT IN THAT SITUATION . YEAH BUT BUT RIGHT NOW IN THIS SITUATION WE CAN ACTUALLY CREATE PEOPLE BIDDING FOR OUR MONEY LIKE THEY'RE THEY'RE LIKE HEY, I WANT TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN BECAUSE THE THING YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT SOMETIMES GETS LOST IS THE DEVELOPERS VERY FEW DEVELOPERS FINANCE THEIR PROJECTS, RIGHT? SO THE DEVELOPERS THEY MAKE MONEY OFF OF MAKING THE PROJECT HAPPEN. SO FOR THEM HAVING HIGHER RETURN EQUITY IT MAKES THE EQUITY PARTNER HIGHER RETURN.  IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM MORE MONEY AND THAT'S EVEN INCLUDED WITH THE OTHER OPERATING SUBSIDIARY SUBSIDIARIES THAT WE NEED.  I KNOW I'M SORRY I FORGOT THE MICHAEL MICHAEL GAVE THE FOCUS WE TALKED ABOUT THIS OTHER SUB SUBSIDIARIES NEEDED FOR THIS TO HAPPEN SO THE OTHER SUBSIDIES NEEDED FOR IT TO HAPPEN ARE FOR THERE TO BE THE DEEPLY, DEEPLY AFFORDABLE STUFF. THAT'S WHAT MICHAEL WAS TALKING JUST SO BASICALLY TO ACHIEVE THE LEVEL OF AFFORDABILITY THAT THAT THAT THE ALLIANCE OF HUD TENANTS IS LOOKING FOR YOU NEED SOMETHING ELSE TO THE TABLE AND THAT'S WHY I MENTIONED I THINK FOR US THE FAIRCLOTH UNITS ARE REAL ENGINE LIKE HAVING 3000 OF THOSE AVAILABLE WITHOUT NEEDING ANY FURTHER FEDERAL ACTION LETS US ACTUALLY DO THAT AS OPPOSED TO LIKE WAITING FOR SOMEBODY TO PROVIDE THAT SUBSIDY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU, JEFF. THANK YOU.  ALL RIGHT. ANY QUESTION ANY MORE QUESTIONS ? ANSWER SANTANA. YES.  THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR. FOLLOWING UP ON THE QUESTION THAT COUNCIL PRESIDENT LOUIJEUNE ASKED EARLIER COULD WE USE OUR BORROWING AUTHORITY TO FINANCE THIS MAYBE TO SET UP A PILOT FUND THAT WE DO AS A FIRST PROJECT? WOULD THAT MAKE MORE SENSE THAN THINKING OF THIS AS A BIG APPROPRIATION AS A FIRST STEP, PARTICULARLY IF WE TAKE AN APPROACH THAT REVOLVES FUNDS BACK AND HAS A RETURN ON INVESTMENT?  YES. SO YES, WE COULD. IT REALLY JUST DEPENDS ON.  IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE FINANCIAL PROFILE FOR THE CITY OR THE STATE AGENCY THAT'S LOOKING AT FUNDING LIKE IF THE THE THING THAT GIVES LIKE PUBLIC FINANCE PEOPLE THE MOST GRAY HAIRS IS COMMITTING TO SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE RECURRING THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD IN THE FUTURE. SO THE NICE THING IS THAT THIS SHOULD NOT BE THAT SCENARIO. THIS SHOULD EITHER BE YOU HAVE SOME MONEY ONE TIME. THAT'S WHY THIS IS NOT OUR SITUATION BECAUSE WE'VE DONE OTHER GREAT THINGS WITH OUR ARPA MONEY. BUT I KNOW THAT PAUL'S GROUP HAS ENCOURAGED FOLKS TO LOOK AT PUTTING ARPA DOLLARS INTO REVOLVING FUNDS AND SUCH BECAUSE IT'S LIKE HEY THIS IS ONE TIME MONEY BUT YOU COULD USE IT AND YOU COULD HAVE A LONG TERM BENEFIT, RIGHT? SO THE LIKE EITHER YOU HAVE A TRANCHE OF ONE TIME MONEY OR YOU SAY OH IT WOULD BE AFFORDABLE FOR ME IN MY CAPITAL PROGRAM TO ISSUE A BOND TO FUND THIS AND I CAN SEE WHAT THE INTEREST WILL PAY BACK AND I CAN FEEL COMFORTABLE I CAN DO THIS NOW. AND SO I THINK MAKING THE CHOICE BETWEEN THOSE TWO OPTIONS REALLY DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC FISCAL SITUATION OF YOUR OF YOUR PUBLIC ENTITY WHICH AS I SAID, I'M NOT GOING TO USURP THE ROLE OF THE CFO AND SPEAK TO OUR CIRCUMSTANCE AND IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT FOR THE STATE AND WHATEVER. BUT I THINK THE BASIC ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS YOU COULD GO EITHER OF THOSE ROUTES BUT CERTAINLY THE THE HAVING THE REALLY GOOD BOND RATING AND THE LOW RATE OF BORROWING FOR THE CITY IS GOING TO BE PRETTY VITAL REGARDLESS. YEAH. THANK YOU.  I'D LIKE TO FOLLOW UP QUESTION ON THAT LIKE IN TERMS OF THE REVOLVING FUND LIKE GETTING SORT OF TIMELINE FOR YOU, YOU PUT MONEY IN INVEST AND THEN WHAT'S THAT? HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE IT TO COME BACK INTO YOUR REVOLVING FUND SO THAT YOU CAN KEEP THE CYCLE ROLLING? YEAH.  SO MONTGOMERY'S IS OPERATING ON A FIVE YEAR REVOLUTION SO WHICH BASICALLY SO WHEN YOU FUND A PROJECT AND YOU CLOSE IT THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT IS IT TAKES TWO YEARS TO BUILD IT AND THEN A YEAR TO GET IT FULLY OCCUPIED AND THEN ANOTHER YEAR BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'RE STAGGERING WHEN PEOPLE MOVE IN AND LIKE WHEN THEY START PAYING THEIR RENTS AND EVERYTHING AND SO YOU'RE KIND OF IN LIKE YEAR FOUR BEFORE LIKE THE UNITS ARE ALL OCCUPIED SIDE AND EVERYBODY'S PAYING THEIR RENT AND THEN YOU CAN SHOW A BANK HERE'S THE CASH FLOW THAT I'M JUST MAKING ON THIS BUILDING AND THAT'S THE POINT WHERE IT COUNTS AS STABILIZED AND THAT'S THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN THEN GET THOSE MORE CONSERVATIVE INVESTORS WHO ARE HAPPY TO INVEST IN A STABILIZED ASSET BUT DON'T WANT TO INVEST IN A RISKY POTENTIAL REAL ESTATE DEAL. THOSE FOLKS CAN REPLACE YOUR MONEY SO THAT YOUR MONEY COMES BACK TO YOUR REVOLVING FUND. SO THAT'S BASICALLY WHY MONTGOMERY OPERATES ON A FIVE YEAR AND I THINK PART OF THE REASON THAT THEY ENDED UP DOUBLING THEIR REVOLVING FUND IS BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EXCITED ABOUT HOW IT WAS WORKING BUT THEY WERE IMPATIENT TO DO ANOTHER DEAL RIGHT.  AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO WAIT FOR THE FIVE YEARS SO THEY WERE LIKE LET'S DO ANOTHER RIGHT OKAY SOUNDS GOOD.  I'M HERE.  THANK YOU. CHAIR ALL RIGHT.  SO I'M CURIOUS BECAUSE I'VE HEARD THROUGH, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE CONSTITUENTS THAT OFTENTIMES WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT MIXED HOUSING OR UNITS THAT THE QUALITY OF CONSTRUCTION OR THE MAINTENANCE OR THE UPKEEP OF CERTAIN UNITS THAT ARE LOWER INCOME BRACKETS USUALLY DON'T HAVE THE SAME AND I KNOW RIGHT I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT BASIC JUST PROVIDING HOUSING FOR PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THAT IF WE'RE TALKING YOU KNOW, EQUITY THEN I'M CURIOUS ABOUT HOW YOU ALL ARE THINKING ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT EVERY SINGLE UNIT IS THE SAME WHETHER YOU'RE A YOU KNOW, A $100,000 RENTER OR A $100 A MONTH. THE FRENCH ARE LIKE HOW HOW ARE YOU GRAPPLING WITH THAT IN TERMS OF COST? YEAH, I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. I THINK IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT WE JUST HAVE TO MAKE AN ABSOLUTE RULE WHICH IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BUILD ALL THE UNITS WITH THE SAME QUALITY REGARDLESS AND THAT'S ALSO WHY IT'S IMPORTANT I THINK IN OUR OUR MODEL AND THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING WITH CHARLESTOWN AND MARY ELLEN IS TO HAVE THEM SPRINKLED THROUGHOUT THE BUILDINGS AND SAY WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE A PART OF THE BUILDING THAT'S THE AFFORDABLE PART. WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE POOR DOORS IN BOSTON. WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE LIKE KIND OF SPLIT BUILDINGS BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT THAT. WE WANT THE SAME FINISHES, WANT THE SAME INVESTMENT. WE WANT THE UNITS TO BE INDISTINGUISHABLE. HONESTLY, WHEN I VISITED THIS BUILDING IN MONTGOMERY WE WENT INTO A BUNCH OF UNITS YOU HAD NO WAY TO TELL WHICH WERE THE AFFORDABLE UNITS AND WHICH WERE THE NON. YEAH AND THAT'S REALLY COMFORTING TO ME . I FEEL LIKE THAT REALLY GIVES ME A SENSE OF EASE BECAUSE IT ALREADY IS HARD ENOUGH TO BE POOR BUT THEN TO LIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT AND TO KNOW THAT YES YOU'RE UNDER THE SAME ROOF BUT THERE'S DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS BASED ON WHAT YOUR INCOME BRACKET IS AND I THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT IS LIKE NOT JUST PROVIDING SHELTER BUT DOING SO WITH DIGNITY. AND I THINK THAT THAT IS DEFINITELY THE DIRECTION THAT WE WANT TO MOVE IN. AND THE LAST THING THAT I'LL JUST SHARE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S A REALLY BEAUTIFUL THING TO SEE RIGHT NOW IS THAT, YOU KNOW, CULTURES AND TANYA WAS YOUR STAFFER RIGHT? AND HERE YOU ARE NOW THE ADMINISTRATIVE BACK AND IT FEELS LIKE A FULL CIRCLE MOMENT WHEREAS NOW YOU ALL ARE ABLE TO COLLABORATE YOU KNOW LIKE TO WORK COLLABORATIVELY.  IT'S IT IT REALLY IS YOU KNOW,  EXCITING TO SEE AND I'M SURE THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE'LL SEE COME TO FRUITION BECAUSE IT HAS THE ENERGY BEHIND IT. SO CONGRATULATIONS.  THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH, COUNCILOR MEJIA.  SO WOULD YOU LEAD SPONSOR WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE SOME CLOSING REMARKS? SO I JUST GIVE YOU A MINUTE TO WRAP UP AND THEN I WOULD CLOSE OUT. YEAH, AS ONE THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR FOR FOR SCHEDULING THIS HEARING SO QUICKLY AND I'M FOR SPONSORING AND ALSO MY OTHER LEAD SPONSOR HAS A POSITIVE LOUIJEUNE I WANT TO THANK OUR PANELISTS AGAIN ADMINISTRATOR BUCK MY FORMER FELLOW BOSS AS WELL AND CHIEF DILLON AND YOU KNOW DIRECTOR YOU KNOW THANK YOU FOR FOR JOINING US TODAY AND YOU KNOW THAT I'LL KEEP AN EYE THAT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING HOW WE CAN REALLY MOVE HERE IN BOSTON WITH THE SOCIAL HOUSING CONCEPT.  AS I STATED BEFORE, I THINK THIS IS ONE IMPORTANT TOOL THAT WE CAN ADD TO OUR TOOLBOX HERE IN BOSTON TO REALLY ADDRESS OUR HOUSING CRISIS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH.  THANK YOU TO THE PANELISTS. THANK YOU. KENZIE CHIEF DILLON AND THANK YOU EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PAUL WILLIAMS FROM THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING AND THANK YOU TO MICHAEL FOR HIS CONTRIBUTION AND GIVE US SOME HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE.  I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS THIS THIS HEARING AND I THINK WE'VE EARNED AND LOOKED AT THE WHOLE LOT OF POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS THIS MORNING AND I HOPE THAT WE WILL CONTINUE THIS PROCESS AND SEE IF WE CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN BOSTON. I'D BE REALLY EXCITED TO DO THAT AND THE NOTION THAT THERE'S SO MUCH HOUSING THAT'S SITTING THERE THAT'S ALREADY READY TO GO AND IT'S JUST SITTING THERE, LET'S LOOK AT ALL THE POTENTIAL THAT WE HAVE TO REALLY TACKLE THE CHALLENGES OF PROVIDING MIXED INCOME SOCIAL HOUSING FOR ALL OF OUR POPULATION IN BOSTON. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE. SORRY ABOUT MY TESTIMONY. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE FOR PUBLIC TESTIMONY AFRAID OF BOK?  NO, THERE'S NO ONE THAT WE'VE CHECKED. THERE'S NO ONE ELSE. THERE'S NO ONE ELSE FOR PUBLIC TESTIMONY. THANK YOU SO THIS MEETING IS ADJOURNED