FOR THE RECORD, MY NAME IS BRIAN WORRALL DISTRICT FOR A BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR AND I'M THE CHAIR OF THE BOSTON CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS. TODAY IS APRIL 8TH, 2024 HAPPY SOLAR ECLIPSE DAY. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND TUNING IN TO THIS HEARING. THIS HEARING IS BEING RECORDED. IT'S ALSO BEING LIVESTREAMED AT BOSTON DOT GOV SLASH CITY BASH COUNCIL DASH TV AND BROADCAST ON XFINITY CHANNEL EIGHT RCN CHANNEL 82 AND FIREHOUSE CHANNEL 964. RAIN COMMENT MAY BE SENT TO THE COMMITTEE EMAIL AT C C C DOT W M BOSTON.COM. IT WILL BE MAY PART OF THE RECORD AND AVAILABLE TO OUR COUNCILORS. PUBLIC TESTIMONY WILL BE TAKEN AT THE END OF THIS HEARING. INDIVIDUALS WOULD BE CALLED ON IN THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY SIGNED UP WILL HAVE 2 MINUTES TO TESTIFY. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN TESTIFYING IN PERSON PLEASE ADD YOUR NAME TO THE SIGN UP SHEET NEAR THE ENTRANCE OF THE CHAMBER. IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO TESTIFY VIRTUALLY PLEASE EMAIL OUR CENTRAL STAFF LIAISON SHANE PAC AT S H A AND B THAT PAYS.  SEE AT BOSTON.COM FOR THE LINK IN YOUR NAME WILL BE ADDED TO THE LIST. TODAY'S HEARING IS ON DOCKET NUMBER 0530. MESSAGE IN ORDER FOR YOUR APPROVAL IN ORDER TO REDUCE TO FY 24 APPROPRIATION FOR THE RESERVE FOR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING BY $7,760,193 TO PROVIDE FUNDING FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE FBI 24 INCREASES CONTAINED WITHIN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVE BEVERLY SOCIETY DOCKET NUMBER 0531 MESSAGE IN AN ORDER FOR SUPPLEMENTAL APPROPRIATION ORDER FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE AMOUNT OF $7,767,193 TO COVER THE FY 20 FORECAST ITEMS CONTAINED WITHIN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVE BEVERLY SOCIETY. THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT ARE JULY 1ST, 2020 THROUGH JUNE 30TH 2023 AND JULY 1ST 2023 THROUGH JUNE 30TH 2025. THE MAJOR PROVISIONS FOR THE CONTRACT INCLUDE BASE WAGE INCREASES OF 2%, 2%, 1% AND 2.5% TO BE GIVEN IN JULY OF EACH FISCAL YEAR. THE CONTRACT TERM AS WELL AS THE ADDITION OF THE TRANSITIONAL CAREER IN JULY 2023. THE CONTRACT ALSO CONTAINS REFORMS RELATING TO DISCIPLINE OFFICER RETURN TO DUTY PAY DETAIL SYSTEM AND UNION RELEASE . DOCKET NUMBER 0532. MESSAGE IN ORDER FOR YOUR APPROVAL IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE FY 24 APPROPRIATION FOR THE RESERVE FOR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING BY $34,294 TO PROVIDE FUNDING FOR CITY DEPARTMENT FOR THE FBI 24 INCREASES CONTAINMENT THEN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION LOCAL SIX DOCKET NUMBER 0533 MESSAGE IN ORDER FOR A SUPPLEMENTAL APPROPRIATION ORDER FOR A CITY DEPARTMENT IN THE AMOUNT OF $34,294 TO COVER THE FY 24 COSTS ITEMS CONTAINED WITHIN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE OFFICE OF THE PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION LOCAL SIX.  THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT ARE JULY 1ST, 2023 THROUGH JUNE 30TH, 2027 THAT MADE MAJOR PROVISIONS FOR THE CONTRACT INCLUDE BASE WAGE INCREASES OF 2% TO BE GIVEN IN OCTOBER OF EACH FISCAL YEAR. THE CONTRACT TERM AND FLAT AMOUNT OF $500 $250 $900 AND $800 TO BE ADDED TO ANNUAL SALARIES IN JANUARY OF EACH FISCAL YEAR.  DOCKET NUMBER 0631 MESSAGE IN ORDER FOR YOUR APPROVAL IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE NY 24 APPROPRIATION FOR THE RESERVE A COLLECTIVE BARGAINING BARGAINING BY $4,909,838 TO PROVIDE FUNDING FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE FY 24 INCREASES CONTAINED WITHIN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVES BEVERLY SOCIETY. IT'S A PRETTY OFFICER'S UNION.  DOCKET NUMBER 0632.  MESSAGE IN ORDER FOR A SUPPLEMENTAL APPROPRIATION ORDER FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE FBI 20 FOR AN AMOUNT OF $4,990,838 TO COVER THE NY 24 COSTS CONTAINED WITHIN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND THE BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVE BEVERLY SOCIETY SUPERIOR OFFICER UNION. THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACTS ARE JULY 1ST, 2022 THROUGH JUNE 30TH, 2023 AND JULY 1ST 2023 THROUGH JUNE 30TH 2025. THE MAJOR PROVISIONS OF THE CONTRACT INCLUDE BASE WAGE INCREASES OF 2%, 1.5%, 2% AND 1% AND 2.5% TO BE GIVEN IN JULY OF EACH FISCAL YEAR AT THE CONTRACT TERM AS WELL AS THE ADDITION OF THE TRANSITIONAL CAREER AWARD PROGRAM IN JULY 2023. THE CONTRACT ALSO CONTAINS REFORMS RELATING TO DISCIPLINE REPORTS OF RETURN TO DUTY PAY DETAIL SYSTEM AND UNION RELEASE . THIS MATTER WAS SPONSORED BY MAYOR MICHELLE WU DOCKETS 05302230533 WILL REFER TO COMMITTEE ON MARCH 20TH 2024 AND DOCKET NUMBER 06631206324 TO THE COMMITTEE ON APRIL THREE, 2024.  TODAY I'M JOINED BY MY COLLEAGUES IN ORDER OF ARRIVAL COUNCIL PRESIDENT LOUIJEUNE COUNCILOR FLYNN.  COUNCILOR MURPHY. COUNCILOR FITZGERALD WE ALSO RECEIVED A LETTER ABSENCE FROM COUNCILORS COLETTA AND COUNCILOR FERNANDO INNOCENT AS CHAIR OF WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE. I'M PLEASED TO HOST TODAY'S MEETING TO DISCUSS THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT OUTLINED IN THESE DOCKETS. THESE ORDER HIGHLIGHT THE PHYSICAL ADJUSTMENTS NECESSARY TO SUPPORT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT WITHIN OUR CITY DEPARTMENTS PARTICULARLY REGARDING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND OFFICE PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION LOCAL SIX. THE PROVISIONS OUTLINE UNDERSCORE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF MAINTAINING EQUITABLE AND SUSTAINABLE LABOR RELATIONS WHILE ENSURING THE EFFECTIVE ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES. I WANT TO THANK THE ADMINISTRATION FOR BEING HERE TODAY AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CONVERSATIONS TODAY. WE ARE JOINED BY THE ADMINISTRATION OF RENE BUCCI BUCCI DIRECTOR LABOR RELATIONS AND JIM WILLIAMSON, DIRECTOR OF OFFICE OF BUDGET AND MANAGEMENT. TURNING TO MY COUNCILOR COLLEAGUES, DO YOU GUYS HAVE ANY OPENING REMARKS? COUNCIL PRESIDENT LOUIJEUNE THANK YOU CHAIR AND I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO THE ADMINISTRATION FOR BEING HERE.  I KNOW THAT THESE CONTRACTS WERE A LONG TIME IN THE MAKING TO GET SOME OF THE REFORMS THAT WE WANTED AND I JUST I'M REALLY ENCOURAGED TO SEE SOME OF THE REFORMS IN THE BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVE BENEVOLENT SOCIETY CONTRACT.  SOMETHING THAT HAS ALWAYS PERPLEXED ME IS THE AMOUNT THAT WE'VE BEEN SPENDING ON COURT OVER TIME AND I THINK THIS CONTRACT REALLY TRIES TO GET US TO A PLACE WHERE WE'RE REDUCING YOU KNOW, GIVEN THAT WE'VE MADE ADVANCES OF TECHNOLOGY AND WE CAN ALERT PEOPLE TO WHEN THEY DO AND DON'T HAVE TO GO TO COURT SEEING THAT REDUCTION IN THAT MANDATORY OVERTIME FOR COURT APPEARANCES IS ENCOURAGING. SO I WANT I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE UNION FOR THE EFFORTS IN REALLY CRACKING DOWN ON THAT AND HAVING SOME COST SAVINGS FOR THE CITY.  WE ALSO SAW SIMILAR WE ALSO SEE SOME SIMILARLY REFORMS HERE LIKE WE DID TO THE PAST CONTRACT WHEN IT COMES TO OPENING UP CIVILIAN OPENING UP DETAILS. ALSO WHEN IT COMES TO DISCIPLINE CERTAIN DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS THAT WILL NOT LEAD TO ARBITRATION AND I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT STARTING POINT.  OBVIOUSLY THERE'S STILL MORE WORK TO BE DONE BUT I JUST WANT TO COMMEND THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE UNION FOR BEING ABLE TO COME TOGETHER ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES THAT MANY MYSELF ADVOCATES SO MANY HAVE BEEN HAVE BEEN WANTING TO SEE SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK ON THIS AND I WANT TO THANK YOU, MR CHAIR, FOR HOLDING THESE HEARINGS. THANK YOU. COUNCIL PRESIDENT. COUNCIL FLYNN THANK YOU, MR CHAIR AND THANK YOU TO THE PANEL FOR BEING HERE FOR NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH WITH VARIOUS UNIONS AS WELL.  I ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROFESSIONAL WORK OF THE ADMINISTRATION TEAM THAT'S HERE. I ALSO WANT TO ENSURE THAT WE ALSO ADDRESS GOING INTO THIS BUDGET SEASON THAT WE ARE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY SEVERAL HUNDRED POLICE OFFICERS AND THAT GAP IS GROWING. WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POLICE OFFICERS IN THE CITY.  I WANT TO SEE WHAT THIS BUDGET WILL DO TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE BRINGING POLICE OFFICERS IN THE CITY. BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US AS ELECTED OFFICIALS TO SUPPORT POLICE, TO SUPPORT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, ESPECIALLY DURING CHALLENGING AND DIFFICULT TIMES. POLICE OFFICERS ARE MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITY. THEY'RE OUR NEIGHBORS. THEY'RE INVOLVED IN OUR YOUTH SPORTS COLLEGE SPORTS TEAMS AND I'M I WANT TO SEE THAT WE TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT AS WELL.  MR CHAIR, WITH A POLICE UNION OFFICIALS INVITED ALSO TO TESTIFY I I'VE REACHED OUT TO THE UNION AND THEY'RE ALWAYS WELCOME TO TESTIFY.  BUT ARE THEY TESTIFYING TODAY?  I DON'T SEE THEM IN THE ROOM TODAY. OKAY.  SO IF THERE'S AN ISSUE THAT I QUESTION I HAVE. ON THE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE OF THE CONTRACT IS IT RELATES TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. JIM, ARE YOU PREPARED TO ANSWER DETAILS ABOUT HOW THIS IMPACTS THE OPERATION OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT? I THINK THAT PROBABLY BETTER SUITED TO HANDLE BY RENE. SHE IS MORE FAMILIAR WITH LIKE THAT CONTRACT TERMS.  THANK YOU, MR CHAIR. THANK YOU, COUNCILOR FLYNN. COUNCILOR MURPHY, THE FLOOR IS YOURS. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, CHAIR FOR HOLDING THIS HEARING. I HOPE WE CAN COME TO AN AGREEMENT AND VOTE SOON. I KNOW THAT THE POLICE UNIONS AND THEIR MEMBERS HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD ALONG WITH YOUR OFFICE THESE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS HAVE BEEN SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH YOU COMING IN PRESENTING CONTRACTS AND WE'RE FINALIZING A LOT OF THEM WHICH IS GOOD.  I KNOW IN ONE ROUND OF QUESTIONING OF FLYNN WILL BRING IT UP.  ONE THING HE DOES ALWAYS SAY LIKE DID DID WE GIVE ENOUGH? BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE DO HAVE TO BE FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE KNOWING THAT I CAN REACH OUT DIRECTLY TO THE INDIVIDUAL POLICE UNIONS BUT MAKING SURE THAT THERE ISN'T ANYTHING LEFT OUT OR ANYTHING THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE BEFORE WE DO TAKE A VOTE TO PASS IS IMPORTANT TO ME ALSO. SO I WILL DIRECT QUESTIONS IF I HAVE AND IF YOU CAN'T ANSWER THEM THEN HOPEFULLY WE CAN GET THEM ON THE RECORD AND MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THOSE ANSWERS FOR OUR COLLEAGUES BEFORE WE TAKE A VOTE. CHAIR CAN I ASK THREE ARE WE PLANNING ON VOTING ON THIS ON WEDNESDAY?  THAT WOULD BE THE INTENTION BASED ON HOW THIS CONVERSATION GOES. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. YOU COUNCILOR FITZGERALD, THE FLOOR IS YOURS. THANK YOU, CHIEF. THANK YOU THE ADMINISTRATION FOR COMING TODAY.  LOOK. WELL, THIS IS CERTAINLY A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT TO GO OUT. IF YOU THINK ABOUT RECENT INCIDENTS AS IT HAVE OCCURRED, WE'VE HAD A COP SHOT AND FORTUNATE WAS SAVED BY HIS VEST. WE JUST RECENTLY HERE AT THE HALL ON FRIDAY HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE GET BITTEN. SO THE THE PERILS THAT THESE FOLKS PUT THEMSELVES THROUGH IS IS CERTAINLY UNFOLDING SPLAY UNFORTUNATELY EVEN IN RECENT DAYS, WEEKS AND MONTHS.  AND SO IT'S HARD TO SAY THAT THEY DON'T DESERVE SOME OF THESE THAT THESE DOLLARS. THAT BEING SAID, I'VE GOT A LOT TO LEARN AS A NEW CITY COUNCILOR HERE AND SORT OF GOING THROUGH MY FIRST ROUND AND SO YOU KNOW, I'M HERE TO LEARN AND LISTEN AS WELL BUT GLAD THAT WE ARE SUPPORTING OUR POLICE ACROSS ALL THE UNIONS HERE AND LOOK FORWARD TO LEARNING MORE FROM YOU ALL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.  THANK ACCOUNTS FITZGERALD NOW TO THE ADMINISTRATION. THANK YOU YOUR WORLD AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BOSSIER CITY COUNCIL . WE'RE HAPPY HERE TODAY I'M JOINED BY. MY NAME IS JIM WILLIAMSON. I'M THE BUDGET DIRECTOR HERE AT THE CITY BOSTON. I'M JOINED BY RENE BUCCI WHO IS THE HEAD OF LABOR RELATIONS WITH CITY OF BOSTON AND WE APPRECIATE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT THE THREE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS THE POLICE DETECTIVES, THE POLICE DETECTIVE SUPERIORS AND THE OPI YOU UNION WHICH IS AN REPRESENT STAFF THAT I YOU SEE. SO THESE THE SIX DOCKETS REPRESENT TRANSACTIONS BETWEEN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESERVE INTERDEPARTMENTAL BUDGETS SO DOCKET 0530 AND 30531 MOVE A $7.8 MILLION OUT OF THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESERVE INTO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO SUPPORT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S NEW WAGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE NEW CONTRACT 0532 AND 0533 MOVE $34,000 FROM THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESERVE INTO AREAS TO SUPPORT THE WAGE REQUIREMENTS OF THE NEW CONTRACT FOR OPI. ARE YOU AND THEN THE LAST SET OF DOCKETS 0631 IN 0632 MOVE ABOUT $4.9 MILLION FROM THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESERVE INTO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE POLICE DETECTIVES PERIOD. THIS CONTRACT IN AGGREGATE ALL THREE OF THESE IS ARE LIKE A $12.7 MILLION REDUCTION IN THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESERVE AND AS WE STARTED THIS FISCAL YEAR WITH THE RATIFICATION OF THE NY 24 BUDGET IN JUNE WITH $76.2 MILLION IN AGGREGATE IN THE RESERVE SINCE JULY THE CITY COUNCIL HAS PASSED TEN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS WITH IT WITH A COST TOTALING $46.8 MILLION FOR THOSE TEN CITY AND PUBLIC HEALTH COMMISSION UNIONS. WITH THIS REDUCTION OF $12.7 MILLION FOR THESE THREE UNIONS THE BALANCE WILL STAND AT $66.7 MILLION OF . SO WITH THAT I WILL TURN IT OVER TO I DON'T KNOW IF RENE HAS SOMETHING TO SHARE. I CAN GIVE YOU GOOD AFTERNOON COUNSELORS. I'LL JUST GIVE YOU A QUICK SUMMARY OF WHERE WE ARE. I THINK WITH THESE THREE CONTRACTS, THE TWO POLICE CONTRACTS, THE DETECTIVES IN THE DETECTIVE SUPERIORS ARE LARGELY MIRA THE CONTRACT WAY WE DID WITH THE THE PPA CONTRACT IT HAS THE SAME PROVISION ON DISCIPLINE. WELL FOR THE DETECTIVES THE DETECTIVES SUPERIORS CONTRACT DOES NOT HAVE A JUST CAUSE PROVISIONS SO THAT WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THERE. I'M AWAY BUT THE DISCIPLINE PROVISION MIRROR IS THE SAME ONE THAT'S NBPA IS MIRRORED IN THE DETECTIVES LIMITING ARBITRATION RIGHTS FOR CERTAIN LISTED OFFENSES. THE OTHER MAJOR PROVISION IN BOTH OF THESE IS SOME REFORMS TO THE DETAIL SYSTEM WHICH ALLOWS PPD TO SORT OF CENTRALIZE AND PRIORITIZE TYPE ONE DETAILS SO WE CAN GET THESE COVERED FOR PUBLIC SAFETY PROVIDES THE OFFICERS FOR A HIGHER RATE FOR DOING THAT LIMITS TIMES WHEN THEY CAN BE PAID FOR DOING TWO DETAILS AT THE SAME TIME AND SO I THINK THAT'S ALL IN THE DETAILS. IT'S A FEW OTHER THINGS THERE BUT THOSE ARE THE HIGHLIGHTS BOTH THE DETECTIVES AND THE DETECTIVES SUPERIOR CONTRACTS LIMIT UNION RELEASE TIME FOR OFFICERS SO THAT YOU KNOW THEY HAVE SOME PROVISIONS IN THERE ON IT.  WE LIMIT AROUND A THIRD TO 20% AGAIN I THINK THAT PUTS MORE OPPORTUNITY FOR OFFICERS TO BE ON THE STREETS AND MAYBE LIMIT SOME OVERTIME WHEN THAT NEEDS TO BE BACKFILLED. SO WE WERE HAPPY TO GET SOME OF THOSE PROVISIONS INCLUDED UNLIKE THE BPP CONTRACTS, BOTH OF THESE CONTRACTS CAN INCLUDE LIMITATIONS ON COURT TIME DETECTIVES AND DETECTIVES OPERATORS ARE I BELIEVE OUR NUMBERS TOLD US THAT SPENT A LOT OF OVERTIME THEY GET 4 HOURS MINIMUM FOR EVERY TIME THEY'RE SCHEDULED TO GO TO COURT AND IT CANCELS WITHIN 72 HOURS. SO WE GOT THAT DOWN TO 24 HOURS FOR THE CANCELLATION.  SO THAT'S HOPEFULLY ABOUT A TWO THIRDS LIMIT ON THE COURT TIME WHEN IT'S CANCELED. YOU KNOW, THE IDEA BEING 24 HOURS IS KIND OF A LOT OF NOTICE TODAY AND YOU CAN STILL MAYBE GO TO A DETAIL OR SOMETHING ELSE IF YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF NOTICE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE SAME THE BPP CONTRACT HAD DETAIL CLERKS INVOLVED IN IT AND GIVING UP SOME OF THOSE POSITIONS AND PUTTING THEM ON THE STREET AS WELL. SO WE FOCUSED MORE ON COURT TIME WITH THE DETECTIVES AND THEY GAVE US A FEW OTHER PROVISIONS ON YOU KNOW, JUST THE IMPACTS OF CENTRAL LOCKUP WHICH IS SOMETHING DPD IS WORKING ON AS WELL. THE NEW CONTRACT IS A SMALL GROUP OF EMPLOYEES IN ICE-T.  AS JIM SAID, YOU KNOW IT'S A PRETTY A UNIT THAT DOESN'T HAVE A TON OF ISSUES I THINK IN THE LABOR RELATIONS FIELD SO THAT THIS CONTRACT MIRRORS MORE WHAT WE DID WITH APS, ME AND SEIU, THE CITYWIDE CONTRACTS WE RECENTLY WERE HERE ON. WE'RE HAPPY THAT THIS ALSO INCORPORATES YOU KNOW, THE FLAT AMOUNT SO IT HITS THE LOWER PAID WORKERS MORE THAN YOU KNOW JUST AFFECTS THEM A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY AND HELPS THEM MORE THAN THE HIGHER PAID WORKERS.  WE ALSO WERE ABLE TO PROVIDE SICK AND BEREAVEMENT LEAVE FOR EMPLOYEES ON PROBATION SOME THINGS FOR THE DEPARTMENT WERE YOU KNOW, JUST GETTING SOME LIMITATIONS ON WHO CAN BID IN THE BID PROCESS AND WE WERE INCREASING ON CALL PAY SO WE COULD GET SOME INSURED HELP GET SOME POSITIONS STAFFED.  BUT THAT'S LARGELY THE SAME PROVISIONS THAT WERE ASKED ME IN SEIU, THE OTHER CITYWIDE CONTRACTS.  SO THAT'S SORT OF THE OVERVIEW OF THE CONTRACTS WE'RE HERE ON TODAY. AWESOME. WELL THANK YOU FOR THE OVERVIEW. NOW OPEN UP TO MY COLLEAGUES FOR ROUND AND QUESTION QUESTIONS. COUNCILOR OFFLINE FOR JOYCE THANK YOU MR CHAIR.  JIM TELL ME ABOUT HEALTH AND WELLNESS SUPPORT FOR OFFICERS IN THEIR FAMILIES. WHAT INCREASED IN THIS CONTRACT FOR HEALTH AND WELLNESS? I'M NOT SURE. YEAH, THERE WASN'T AN INCREASE IN HEALTH HEALTH AND WELLNESS.  TELL ME WHAT THE LANGUAGE SAYS CURRENTLY ABOUT HEALTH AND WELLNESS.  I KNOW WE HAD SOME PROPOSALS ON HEALTH AND WELLNESS I THINK FROM BOTH SIDES BUT JUST WITH THE COST OF SOME OF THESE BUDGETARY ITEMS AND THE PRIORITIES OF THE PARTIES THAT DID NOT END UP GETTING INCLUDED IN THE IN THE NORMAL WAY, HOW WILL THIS NEW CONTRACT IMPACT DTA?  THE DTL SYSTEM? WILL IT STREAMLINE WILL IT STRENGTHEN THE DETAIL SYSTEM?  CERTAINLY THE PATRON BOSTON POLICE PATROLMEN ASSOCIATION RECENTLY HAD THEIR CONTRACT SIGNED AS WELL. NOW NOW YOU KNOW THE DETECTIVES SUPERIOR OFFICERS.  WHAT IMPACT WILL THIS HAVE ON DETAILS?  I'M GOING TO ASSUME, JIM, IT'S GOING TO STRENGTHEN IT. IS THAT AN ACCURATE YEAH, IT'S IT'S HELPFUL TO REFORM THAT DO THE OPERATIONAL SO SO NOW THERE'LL BE MORE POLICE OFFICERS ON THE STREET COVERING IMPORTANT DETAILS IS THAT ACCURATE? THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THE LANGUAGE BY PRIORITIZING TYPE ONES AND YOU KNOW INDICATING YOU KNOW OVER 5000 AND THE COMMISSIONER CAN BASICALLY DECIDE WHERE THERE'S A PUBLIC SAFETY NEED AND GETTING PEOPLE TO THOSE BIGGER EVENTS REQUIRING TO DO TYPE ONES FIRST AND PAYING THEM MORE TO DO IT SHOULD BE SHOULD BE A BENEFIT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.  OKAY.  THE THE BOSTON POLICE CRIME LAB I UNDERSTAND IS NOT PART OF THIS CONTRACT THAT'S CORRECT . THAT'S BEEN CURRENTLY NEGOTIATED, ISN'T IT?  I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO START THIS MONTH. OKAY.  I KNOW WE HAVE CHALLENGES AT THE CRIME LAB.  I WOULD WANT A SOMEONE FROM BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT TO BE AT THE HEARING WHEN WE HAVE WHEN WE DISCUSS THE CRIME LAB CONTRACT SO WE CAN ANSWER SO WE CAN ASK SPECIFIC QUESTIONS RELATED TO THE CRIME CRIME LAB ,MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING, SUPPORT FOR POLICE FAMILIES.  I KNOW LANGUAGE WASN'T CHANGED FOR HEALTH AND WELLNESS BUT HOW WILL WE SUPPORTING OUR POLICE OFFICERS AND THEIR FAMILIES THROUGH THIS CONTRACT?  I MEAN THE ONE THING YOU'RE YOU'RE INCREASING THEIR SALARIES QUITE A BIT.  I MEAN THAT GIVES THEM A LOT OF DIFFERENT SUPPORTS. I THINK THERE'S A PRETTY LARGE INCREASES WITH THE T CAP AND THE STRIKE RATE FOR DETAILS AND IT JUST SORT OF FUNDAMENTALLY EVIL. IT'S PUTTING A LOT MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS SO HOPEFULLY THAT WILL TAKE SOME OF THE EASE OFF OF YOU KNOW A LOT OF I THINK MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS I GET COME RELATED TO FINANCIAL OR GET PEOPLE HAD DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO CERTAIN HELPS FOR MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES SO I THINK JUST FINANCIALLY WOULD HAVE TO BE THE ANSWER TO THAT JIM WELL THIS BUDGET THAT WE WILL SEE WILL IT TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY POLICE OFFICERS IN THE CITY, ARE WE GOING TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH MONEY IN THE BUDGET TO PUT ON MANY CLASSES? YES, IT WILL INCLUDE FUNDING FOR A REPLACEMENT CLASSES. YES. WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS JIM?  I THINK I THINK IS PROBABLY IT'S ONE OF THEIR LARGER CLASSES INCLUDED YOU KNOW, PLANNED IN THE BUDGET.  SO I THINK IT'S IN THE 200 TO 450 RANGE THAT THEY PLAN FOR SOME ATTRITION DURING THE CLASS. SO HOW MANY PEOPLE DO WE EXPECT TO RETIRE OVER THE NEXT YEAR IN THE BOSTON POLICE?  I DON'T HAVE THOSE FIGURES WITH ME BUT IT'S NOT YES. YOU KNOW THERE THE REASON I ASKED THAT QUESTION I BALANCE THAT QUESTION WITH THE NUMBER OF RECRUITS THAT WE'RE PUTTING THROUGH IN UPCOMING CLASSES AND FACTORING ALSO THAT WE'RE DOWN SEVERAL HUNDRED POLICE OFFICERS. THE CITY IS GROWING IN POPULATION ESPECIALLY IN MY DISTRICT AS WELL ON THE SOUTH BOSTON WATERFRONT. WHAT ARE WE DOING, JIM, TO MAKE UP FOR THE LACK OF POLICE IN IN THE GROWING POPULATION? SO WE DO MONITOR RETIREMENTS AS THEY OCCUR AND SO YOUR BUDGET YOU KNOW WHAT YOU THINK THE CLASS IS BASED ON HISTORIC SORT OF RETIREMENT RATES OR ATTRITION RATES IN THE DEPARTMENT BUT AS YOU APPROACH YOU KNOW THE POINT WAITING TIME WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS LOOKING TO PUT ON THE CLASS LOOKING YOU KNOW, LOOKING FOR AUTHORITY TO START RECRUITING AND PUTTING PEOPLE IN CLASS IF THERE'S HIGHER LEVELS OF ATTRITION, WE WILL DEFINITELY INCREASE THE CLASS SIZE.  THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY SOME OPERATIONAL CAPACITY ISSUES THAT THEY HAVE TO CONSIDER BUT WE DEFINITELY ARE WILLING TO TO ADJUST CLASS SIZES TO MEET CHANGES IN, YOU KNOW, ATTRITION IN RETIREMENT.  I HIGHLIGHTED IT BEFORE BUT THE THE CRIME LAB I AM CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE CRIME LAB. ARE WE PAYING THESE DNA ANALYSTS ENOUGH MONEY SO THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES?  IT'S A IT'S A HIGHLY SKILLED TECHNICAL JOB.  HOW WILL WE DOING ENSURING THAT WE'RE PAYING THESE ANALYSTS THE APPROPRIATE SALARY TO I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S A PARTICULAR PROPOSAL TO TO EVALUATE THEIR SALARIES BUT THERE IS A CAPACITY WITHIN THE WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION TO EVALUATE COMPENSATION ACROSS OTHER JURISDICTIONS AND TO SEE IF IT'S A YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE HAS TO BE A CONSIDERATION FOR LOCALITY BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S A PROPOSAL BEFORE US ON ON A WAGE REVIEW FOR THAT GROUP BUT WE ARE SHORT I UNDERSTAND WITH DNA ANALYSTS IN THE CRIME LAB IT'S TROUBLING.  ARE WE ABLE TO ENSURE THAT THIS NEXT BUDGET ADDRESSES DNA RELATED IT DEALS WITH CRIME LAB RELATED ISSUES, PERSONNEL.  WE HAVEN'T STARTED NEGOTIATIONS WITH THAT GROUP YET BUT I WOULD ANTICIPATE THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE WAS SIGNIFICANT STAFFING ISSUES WE WOULD DO SOME CLASS AND CONFIRM POTENTIALLY DO SOME CLASS AND COMP REVIEWS OF WHERE THEY ARE, WHAT THEY HAD TO DNA ANALYST LEFT THE OFFICE WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.  SO WHO WOULD WHO WOULD MAKE UP THE WORK WHEN THAT HAPPENS OPERATIONALLY I WOULD ASSUME MOVING TO REDEPLOYED WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OBVIOUSLY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO PICK UP ADDITIONAL WORKLOAD OR POTENTIALLY IT COULD HAVE A YOU KNOW, STRETCH OUT YOU KNOW, EVALUATION TIMEFRAMES BUT I KNOW THAT'S A THAT'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE IS THE CRIME LAB AND DO WE HAVE ENOUGH PERSONNEL THERE AS AS IT IS RIGHT NOW JIM I DON'T THINK WE GET A PROPOSAL OR A BUDGET PROPOSAL FOR THE CRIME LAB SPECIFICALLY. I COULD CERTAINLY LOOK AT IT. WELL, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S SOMETHING I'VE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR IS IS BEEFING UP THE CRIME LAB THAT'S IMPORTANT WHEN WHEN A CRIME HAPPENS THAT EVIDENCE IS USED AND IS SENT TO COURT TO PROSECUTE CASES AND WE NEED TO HAVE THE NECESSARY CERTIFIED PROFESSIONALS IN THERE.  I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. WE ARE NOT MEETING THE STATE REQUIREMENT OF 30 DAYS OF TESTING EVIDENCE AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN A CRIME HAPPENS THE EVIDENCE THAT IS SENT TO THE DNA THAT THAT DNA THAT IS SENT TO THE CRIME LAB IS TESTED. BUT WE NEED TO ENSURE WE HAVE THE RIGHT PERSONNEL THERE. IT NEEDS TO BE FULLY FUNDED AND IT'S NOT FULLY FUNDED RIGHT NOW. AND THAT'S THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT DURING THIS DURING THIS UPCOMING BUDGET SEASON AS WELL.  WHAT DO YOU THINK, JIM? OH, WE WE'RE WE'RE CERTAINLY OPEN TO SORT OF EVALUATING, YOU KNOW, OPERATIONAL CHANGES WITHIN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT SO YEAH, BUT THIS IS THIS IS TIMELY. THIS HAS TO HAPPEN SOON. WE NEED PEOPLE IN THAT CRIME LAB NOW. WE NEED THEM TRAINED, WE NEED THEM WE NEED THEM INTO THE HUMAN RESOURCES SYSTEM THAT SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE STREAMLINED WHERE IF SOMEONE APPLIES FOR A JOB THAT THEY CAN GET AN ANSWER BACK IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE HIRED OR NOT.  I THINK PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH THAT BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN HAVE SOMEONE APPLYING FOR A JOB AND YOU STILL WAITING TO GIVE THEM AN OFFICIAL RESPONSE OR ANSWER A YEAR LATER THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON MORALE, THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON THE OPERATION OF THE CRIME LAB. MR CHAIR, THANK YOU. THANK YOU. COUNCILOR FLYNN. COUNCILOR MURPHY, THE FLOOR IS YOURS. THANK YOU, CHAIR.  I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THE DETAIL SYSTEM IF WE COULD SPEAK TO WHERE IS THE SYSTEM NOW?  WHAT CHANGES WERE MADE TO IT AND IF YOU COULD SPEAK TO WHAT DID THE PROCESS LOOK LIKE AND WHAT CHANGES WERE IMPLEMENTED THROUGHOUT THIS CONTRACT AND WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE NOW AND IF IT'S WORKING WELL I'LL SPEAK BROADLY TO IT. I AM NOT, YOU KNOW, NOT ABLE TO GIVE EVERY SINGLE DETAIL.  WE PROBABLY WOULD NEED SOMEONE FROM COMMAND STAFF TO GIVE LIKE SPECIFIC DETAILS BUT BROADLY THEY HAVE IMPLEMENTED THE THE PROCESS DESIGNATING CERTAIN JOBS TYPE ONE AND OTHERS TYPE TWO WITH THE PRIORITY BEING TO FILL THE TYPE ONE POSITIONS FIRST THERE'S BENEFITS YOU DESCRIBED WHAT TYPE ONE AND TYPE TWO WHO FALLS INTO TYPE ONE SO THE TYPE ONE ARE GOING TO BE LIKE WE DID HAVE SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH THE SUPERIORS AND ANY THAT WE ADDED TO THEIR CONTRACT ANY DETAIL THAT REQUIRES A SUPERIOR OFFICER WOULD BE TYPE ONE. AND I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU THE IT IS FOR THE PUBLIC COULD YOU OR EVEN MYSELF COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT DETAIL THAT WOULD BE? WOULD IT BE A TRAFFIC TO AN OPEN STREET SITE?  YEAH. SO WHAT IF BESIDES TYPE ONE AND TYPE TWO THEN WE TALKED ABOUT SOME TRAFFIC DETAILS WHERE YOU WOULDN'T NECESSARILY NEED A POST CERTIFIED OFFICER SO THAT COULD BE OR POTENTIALLY IT COULD BE RETIREES AS WELL.  THEY HAVEN'T IMPLEMENTED THAT PART OF IT YET. THERE'S STILL ON THE JUST GETTING THE TYPE ONE IN THE TYPE TWO. SO BESIDES THERE WAS MAJOR EVENTS WITH MORE THAN 5000 PEOPLE UTILITY AND CONSTRUCTION DETAILS AND THEN I SAID SUPERVISORY DETAILS TYPE TWO ARE GOING TO BE MORE YOU KNOW, WE CALL IT LIKE THE SHADY STREET DETAILS WHERE THE OFFICERS THEY'RE WATCHING THE UTILITIES.  THERE'S NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO BY MAKING IT CENTRALIZED AND MAKING ALL THE DETAILS IN THE CITY THAT ARE TYPE ONE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS IN THE CONTRACT OF COURSE GET FILLED PRIOR TO TYPE TWOS I THINK THAT SHOULD BE INCREASING PUBLIC SAFETY AND THERE'S BEEN A FEW BACK AND FORTH WITH THE UNIONS ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES BUT FROM WHAT I KNOW SO FAR IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS IMPROVE GIVING GETTING THE TYPE ONE DETAILS. BILL COULD YOU SPEAK TO HOW MUCH THE CITY PROFITS FROM OR HOW MUCH WE SPEND OUT OF POCKET ON THESE DETAILS BECAUSE IT'S TRUE THAT THE COMPANIES PAY FOR THESE AND DON'T WE AS A CITY GET AN ADDITIONAL FINANCIAL SUPPORT ON TOP OF THE POLICE OFFICERS GETTING PAID? THE CITY ALSO GETS MONEY FROM THESE DETAILS. YEAH THERE IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE FEE TACKED ON TO THE COST OF THE DETAILS AND WHAT IS THAT? I THINK IT'S 15% 15% OF OF THE COST OF THE DETAIL I BELIEVE. AND WHAT IS THE COST OF THE DETAIL IT I THINK IT'S DEPENDS ON THE NUMBER OF HOURS AND THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS IN THE ROOM OR YEAH RIGHT BUT THAT'S ALL IMPORTANT INFORMATION TO KNOW HOW MUCH BECAUSE WE DO TALK A LOT ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS YOU KNOW GETTING A LOT OF MONEY ON DETAILS BUT WE TAXPAYERS DON'T PAY THAT FEE AND THEN WE AS A CITY ARE ABLE TO USE THE REVENUE THAT COMES IN TO FUND OTHER IMPORTANT SERVICES LIKE SENIOR SERVICES OR YOUTH SUMMER JOBS AND YOU KNOW, CLEANING UP OUR PARKS AND KEEPING OUR STREETS ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW, RATS, ALL THE IMPORTANT QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES THAT WE HAVE HERE ON YEAH, WE CAN GET YOU THAT COMPONENT OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE FEE ASSOCIATED WITH DETAILS THAT COMES INTO THE GENERAL FUND AS YOUR RIGHT RIGHT TO POINT OUT THAT THAT THOSE ALONG WITH ANY NUMBER OF OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE FEES AND THAT ARE COMING TO THE GENERAL FUND ARE REDEPLOYED TO ALL THE SERVICES THAT WE DEPEND ON. RIGHT. OKAY. NOW THAT WOULD BE GOOD AND IF I COULD GET A BREAKDOWN I WOULD ASSUME MY COLLEAGUES WOULD WANT TO KNOW TO TO SHARE.  SURE. SO THROUGH THE CHAIR CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT IT'S ALSO DETAILED ENOUGH TO KNOW THE AMOUNT OVER THE LAST I'D SAY THREE YEARS AND WHAT DEPARTMENTS HAVE BENEFITED FROM THAT CAN YOU TELL FROM THE GENERAL FUND? SO JUST THERE HOW MUCH HAS GONE INTO THE GENERAL FUND? YES, WE DO HAVE DOLLAR AMOUNTS OF HOW MUCH THINGS COST, RIGHT? YES. MAKING SURE WE'RE TRAINING OUR LIFEGUARDS AND FIXING OUR POOLS OR YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DIRECT DOLLAR AMOUNT.  YEAH, THAT'S ONE THING ASSOCIATED WITH THE GENERAL FUND AND THINGS GO TO THE GENERAL FUND IS NOT EARMARKED FOR ANY PARTICULAR I MEAN WE'RE LOOSELY ALIGNED WITH THINGS YOU KNOW IN PENSION AGES FOR A STATION BUT BUT ALL YOUR GENERAL FUND COMES IN AND CAN BE ASSIGNED TO THINGS IT'S NOT EXPENSE SPECIFIC. OKAY THANK YOU.  THANK YOU JEFF THANK YOU COUNCILMEMBER FOR IN QUICK QUESTION AROUND CUSTOMER FEES LINE OF QUESTION DOES DO WE NO LONGER UNDER THE NEW PAY DETAIL SYSTEM DO WE NO LONGER COLLECT A FEE OFF OF THOSE THAT WILL BE YOU KNOW WE THERE'S NOT A POLICE OFFICER AT THE PAY DETAIL SYSTEM LIKE A THIRD PARTY. A THIRD PARTY RIGHT. I WOULD THINK WE WOULD STILL INCLUDE THAT AS AN ADMINISTRATIVE FEE. THE ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS ARE STILL PRESENT WILL STILL BE PRESENT. YOU KNOW I MEAN THERE ARE YOU KNOW, CITY STAFF THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MANAGING BILLING, COLLECTING THAT PART OF IT. I MEAN I WOULD SAY WE JUST DON'T HAVE WE DON'T HAVE THE CONTRACTS WITH THE VENDORS OR THE WE JUST HAVEN'T DONE IT YET. SO I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME KIND OF WE WE DON'T HAVE THE CONTRACT IN PLACE TO TELL YOU THAT DEFINITIVELY. ALL RIGHT.  THANK YOU, COUNCILOR FITZGERALD. THANK YOU, CHAIR.  FANTASTIC QUESTIONS FROM MY COLLEAGUES REGARDING ALL THIS STUFF. AGAIN, JUST TO REITERATE THE FACT THAT ALL THESE UNIONS ACROSS THE BOARD TRAUMA DETECTIVE SUPERIORS, YOU KNOW THEIR JOB IS ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW AND HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE . AND WHAT I'M HAPPY TO SEE HERE IS THAT THEY ALSO TAKE THAT UPON THEMSELVES AND THAT THEY ARE ALSO HOLD THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE AND WILL BE IN YOU KNOW AND THERE ARE THOSE AROUND LIKE OURSELVES AND OTHERS TO MAKE TO ENFORCE IF THEY ARE NOT RIGHT AND THAT'S WHAT THIS THAT'S WHAT THESE CONTRACTS DO . AND SO WHILE IT IS A I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT A LOT OF THE BENEFITS COME MORE IN THE WALLET THAN ANYTHING ELSE. I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD DISAGREE AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE SAD ABOUT THAT.  THE ACCOUNTABILITY AND THE ENFORCEMENT THAT IS THERE NOW AND I THINK IT'S A GROUP OF FOLKS THAT ARE HAPPY TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND FOR THOSE TO ENFORCE THEM AS WELL. SO I HAVE FULL FAITH THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO IT AND SERVE US WELL AND MAKE US PROUD.  I DO. SECOND COUNCILOR FLYNN ON THE CRIME LAB SUPPORT.  I KNOW DURING THE CAMPAIGN GOING OUT I SPOKE TO MANY PEOPLE'S RANK AND FILE TO THE CRAB LAB AND THE CRIME LAB EMPLOYEES THEMSELVES THAT WERE CLAMORING ABOUT THE NEED TO SPEED THINGS UP AND TO GET IT WILL HELP US REDUCE CRIME IN THE LONG RUN BY HAVING THE CRIME LAB FULLY SUPPORTED. AND SO I'D LIKE TO SECOND COUNCILOR FERNANDEZ ON HIS QUEST FOR THAT.  AND AS FOR THE DETAILS IN IN COUNCIL , MURPHY REALLY DELVE INTO THOSE AS WELL. SO YOU KNOW, JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FOLKS IN THESE UNIONS KNOW THAT WE WERE WITH THEM.  WE'RE THERE FOR THEM AS WELL AS I KNOW THEY WERE. THEY'LL BE THERE FOR US BUT ACCOUNTABILITY ENFORCEMENT IS A KEY THROUGHOUT AND I'M GLAD THIS THESE CONTRACTS HOLD THEM TO IT AND THANK YOU ALL FOR HELPING SHEPHERD THIS THROUGH AS WELL.  NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ON MY END. THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU.  JUST A FEW QUESTIONS COMMENTS FROM ME . I LOVE THE FACT THAT JUNETEENTH NOW IS A RECOGNIZED HOLIDAY IN THIS CONTRACT. YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I ADVOCATED FOR LAST TIME WE WERE HERE DISCUSSING CONTRACTS IS TO HIGHLIGHT BENEFITS.  YOU KNOW, IF WE HAVE A HIRING PROBLEM ONE WAY I THINK WE CAN INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE TO TAKE SOME OF THESE JOBS IS TO PASS DOWN SOME OF THOSE HIGHER ED BENEFITS TO IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS. I THINK THAT'S AN INCENTIVE THAT I THINK WILL BE HELPFUL TO OUR HIRING CHALLENGES AND.  THEN IT SOUNDS LIKE THIS MIGHT BE A BPD QUESTION BUT THE TIMELINE ON THE ROLL OUT FOR THE FOR THE SECOND PART OF THE PAY DETAILS SYSTEM WANTED TO GET THAT IDEA AND THEN ALSO DO WE DO WE KNOW LIKE THE CASE LOAD OF OF A DETECTIVE YOU KNOW LIKE HOW MANY HOMICIDE CASES I MEAN CASES THAT THEY HAVE TO SOLVE RATE ANY ANY INFORMATION AROUND A BPD PROBABLY DOES I DO NOT KNOW THEIR THEIR CASELOAD OR THEIR SALARY.  AWESOME THANK YOU FOR THAT AND I THINK WE'LL GO TO NOW PUBLIC TESTIMONY.  YEP.  ALL RIGHT NOW WE'LL GO TO PUBLIC TESTIMONY IF YOU WISH TO PUBLIC TESTIFY TO TESTIFY PLEASE COME TO THE MIKE ON MY LEFT YOUR RIGHT AND WHEN YOU COME DOWN YOU HAVE 2 MINUTES AND PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME IN ANY OFFICIAL AFFILIATION.  GEORGE LEE.  HELLO. IS THE SOUND COMING THROUGH?  THIS IS THE SOUND COMING THROUGH? YES.  HI. MY NAME IS GEORGE LEE. I'M AN ORGANIZER WITH YOUTH JUSTICE AND POWER UNION AND I'M HERE TODAY TO OPPOSE THIS CONTRACT AND ESPECIALLY TO ASK THE CITY COUNCIL TO TAKE TIME TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT MORE DETAILS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S VERY CONCERNING ABOUT THIS CONTRACT IS IT SAYS IT AUTHORIZES BP TO CREATE A CENTRALIZED LOCK UP FACILITY. SO FOR EXAMPLE, FOLKS STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION OR HOUSING ARE NEIGHBORS WHO ARE AT AMMONIA CASK MASSIVE INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE NEED SUPPORT WITH, IT'S CRIMINALIZING FOLKS AND CAUSING DANGER TO FOLKS WE THINK ALONG WITH SOME OTHER GROUPS THAT THIS IS THAT TYPE OF PROCESS HAS ACTUALLY ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING IN COLLABORATION WITH SHERIFF TOMPKINS AND SUPPOSEDLY IT'S SUPPOSED TO SAVE LIVES BUT WE'RE WORRIED BECAUSE ACTUALLY SIX PEOPLE HAVE DIED UNDER SHERIFF TOMPKINS CUSTODY IN 2021.  IN 2022 ANOTHER PERSON JUST DIED AT THE END OF 2023 IN DECEMBER. AND THE IDEA OF LOCKING PEOPLE UP DOING THIS OBSCURE CENTRALIZED BOOKING PROCESS, COMMITTING PEOPLE TO INSTITUTIONS FOR TREATMENT INSTEAD OF LETTING THEM VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE TREATMENT WHICH THE MASS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH HAS ACTUALLY SHOWN CAUSES MORE PEOPLE TO DIE FROM OVERDOSES. THAT'S A REALLY BIG CONCERN.  THIS CONTRACT IS IS DOING THAT AND IN FACT A NUMBER OF COUNCILORS SIGNED ON TO AN ORDINANCE TO A HEARING ORDER TO LOOK MORE INTO THIS PRACTICE AND WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE CENTRALIZED LOCK UP COUNCILORS FRAMERS ANDERSON BREADON FITZGERALD, FLYNN HERE MURPHY, PIPPIN, SANTANA, WEBER, WEBER WERE OUT IN LOUIJEUNE ALL SIGNED ON TO A HEARING ORDER TO GET MORE ANSWERS BECAUSE THE MAYOR AND THE BPD HAVE NOT GIVEN ANSWERS SO IT'S NOT RIGHT TO PASS A CONTRACT THAT AUTHORIZES THAT WHEN THERE HASN'T EVEN BEEN DISCUSSION OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING AND HOW TO ACTUALLY KEEP PEOPLE SAFE. NUMBER TWO THIS CONTRACT BLOAT THE ALREADY LARGE BOSTON POLICE BUDGET. THERE'S ALREADY $48 MILLION THAT WAS PASSED IN DECEMBER IN THE FIRST POLICE CONTRACT. THIS THESE TWO CONTRACTS WOULD ADD ANOTHER 25 MILLION. SO WE'RE TALKING ANOTHER $73 MILLION TO THE BOSTON POLICE BUDGET COMING FROM THESE THREE CONTRACTS COMBINED. AND YOU CAN LOOK AT IT IT'S IN THE MAYOR'S NEW BUDGET THAT WAS FILED TODAY. YOU CAN SEE $50 MILLION EXTRA IN HIS BUDGET THIS YEAR AND THERE'S PROBABLY EXTRA COSTS IN ADMIN AND SO FORTH. SO IT'S THAT'S IF YOU IMAGINE $73 MILLION WHAT COULD HAVE GONE TO LAST YEAR WE WERE ASKING FOR 40 MILLION FOR PARTICIPATORY BUDGETING. WE'RE ASKING FOR ANOTHER 6 MILLION FOR YOUTH JOBS, 2.6 MONEY FOR MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS RESPONSE, MONEY FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING. SO THAT'S ANOTHER $73 MILLION THAT'S GOING TO BE PAID IF Y'ALL KEEP PASSING THESE CONTRACTS INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY REINING IN COSTS. THE MAYOR HAS BROKEN HER PROMISE TO CAP OVERTIME FOR POLICE. SHE'S DOING THIS LIKE COURT REFORM AND MEDICAL REFORMS BUT THERE'S POLICE OFFICERS MAKING 100,000 HUNDRED $50,000 IN OVERTIME OVERTIME NEEDS TO BE CAPPED AND THE BOSTON CITY COUNCIL SHOULDN'T APPROVE ANOTHER $73 MILLION THROUGH ALL THESE CONTRACTS. THANK YOU, GEORGE.  JUST BRIEFLY WITH THE DETAIL SYSTEM I KNOW PEOPLE SETTLED ALREADY IN DECEMBER BUT THERE'S JUST LAYERS AND LAYERS AND LAYERS AND LAYERS NOW OF POLICE WHO GET ALL THESE DETAILS AND SUPPOSEDLY CIVILIANS CAN GET SOME OF THEM BUT THEY'RE AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE LIST AND THAT DOES NOT SERVE THE COMMUNITY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.  TURN IT BACK OVER TO MY COUNCIL COLLEAGUES AND EACH SECOND ROUND QUESTIONS CLOSING REMARKS COUNCILOR FLYNN THANK YOU, MR CHAIR.  JIM I ALSO HAVE HEARD OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS TOO FROM CIVILIANS IN THE BRAC UNIT.  I BELIEVE THAT WITH SEIU AND THERE WAS ANOTHER UNION THERE WITH AS SIENNA SENIOR SENIOR WHAT ARE THEY UP FOR THEIR CONTRACT WAS UP NOW SEIU YOU I THINK YOU JUST APPROVED RECENTLY I'LL TELL YOU WHAT SEIU HE WAS APPROVED BY THE MAYOR ON THE 25TH ON OAK RIDGE AND A SENIOR I THINK IS STILL IN ACTIVE NEGOTIATION. OKAY. AND THAT HAS A LOT OF THE IS THAT CIVILIANS WITHIN THE IN THE BREAK OF WHAT WHO ELSE IS IN SENIOR MIDDLE MANAGERS ALL THROUGH THE CITY IT'S A CITYWIDE UNIT OKAY TELL US JIM I'M STILL CONCERNED ABOUT THIS CONTRACT HERE WHAT IMPACT IT'S GOING TO HAVE ON POLICE FAMILIES THAT'S WHAT I THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO GET AT IS WHAT SERVICES WHAT ARE WE PROVIDING POLICE FAMILIES IN NEED. SO ARE YOU SAYING WE DON'T HAVE LANGUAGE ON THAT? LOOK, I MEAN I WOULD LIKE TO GET BACK TO YOU ON THAT. I KNOW THERE IS SOME PEER TO PEER PROGRAMS AND SOME OTHER I COULD GIVE YOU SOME MORE DETAILS OF . LET ME TALK TO PPD. THERE ARE SOME COUNSELING PROGRAMS KNOW FOR A FACT WITH PPD BUT I COULD GIVE YOU A MORE THOROUGH LIST IF I GO BACK TO AN EMAIL OR SOMETHING.  SO THIS THIS DOCUMENT THAT I'M READING THIS LIKE FOUR PAGE DOCUMENT THAT IS SIGNED THERE'S OTHER OTHER THERE'S OTHER INFORMATION IN HERE AS PART OF THE CONTRACT THAT THAT I WE JUST WE JUST DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO AT THIS TIME SO THIS IS THE AMENDMENTS TO THE PRIOR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT AND THERE ARE SOME OTHER SERVICES THAT MAY BE AVAILABLE YOU KNOW THROUGH THE BPP WOULD PROBABLY NOT EVEN MIGHT NOT EVEN BE IN THERE IT'D JUST BE A DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, PROGRAM POLICE OFFICER SUICIDE IS A CRITICAL ISSUE MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING CRITICAL ISSUE.  WE'VE SEEN A INCREASE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY OF POLICE OFFICERS COMMITTING SUICIDE.  WHAT SERVICES ARE WE PROVIDING THEM?  WHAT SERVICES ARE WE PROVIDING THEIR FAMILY?  HOW ARE WE ENSURING THAT POLICE FAMILIES, THE CARE THAT THEY NEED AND DESERVE? I THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING DPD TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY AND LET ME I WILL RESPOND A MORE THOROUGH LIST OF WHAT'S OFFERED TO THEM MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING CERTAINLY DURING THE PANDEMIC HAS IMPACTED EVERY WALK OF LIFE, EVERY OCCUPATION THAT OCCURRED IN FIRST RESPONDERS, PUBLIC SERVANTS.  IS THAT PART OF THIS OUTREACH? IS THAT PART OF CONTRACT OR WAS THERE SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT IN THIS CONTRACT ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS AND THEIR FAMILIES?  BUT POLICE OFFICERS DURING THE PANDEMIC WENT TO WORK EVERY DAY FIVE DAYS A WEEK, SIX DAYS A WEEK. A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE NOT IN WORK BUT THEY WERE THEY WERE WORKING PROTECTING RESIDENTS OF BOSTON. WHAT HOW ARE WE HELPING THEM NOW THE PANDEMIC IS OVER BUT HOW ARE WE THEM NOW WITH MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING?  I MEAN I'LL GIVE YOU A MORE THOROUGH EMAIL AS I SAID ON THAT THEY ARE YOU KNOW, THIS CONTRACT DOES PROVIDE FOR RETRO PAY FOR ALL THE TIME OF THE PANDEMIC AS WELL. SO THEY WILL BE GETTING REGULAR CHECKS FOR THAT TIME PERIOD. I KNOW I UNDERSTAND THAT.  I THINK THE I THINK THE SO I THINK THE CONTRACT IS GOOD FOR FOR PAY. BUT I ALSO LIKE TO LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE ITSELF ON, HOW IT IMPACTS POLICE OFFICERS, FAMILIES WOULD SEND HERE JIM, ABOUT SUPPORTING POLICE OFFICERS THAT ARE VETERANS THAT ARE THAT ARE VETERANS THAT ARE THAT MIGHT BE IN THE RESERVES AS WELL THAT MIGHT BE IN THE NATIONAL GUARD.  THEY AGREED TO THE CITY'S MILITARY LEAVE POLICY. SO THAT WAS PART OF BOTH THESE I DON'T THINK THEY HAD OFFICIALLY SIGNED OFF ON IT BUT . BOTH UNIONS DID AGREE TO THE CITY'S CURRENT MILITARY LEAVE WAS NOT THE ONE THAT WAS SIGNED WITHIN THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS . SO I DON'T THINK THAT ONE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN GIVEN TO THEM YET. SO THERE'S STILL ACTUALLY A CONTRACT BEHIND BUT THE NEW ONE WE HOPE WE WILL BE PROVIDING THEM SHORTLY ON ON THE MILITARY LEAVE POLICY.  YES.  OKAY. WHO'S WRITING THAT POLICY UP?  I THINK IT'S ALREADY MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT COMPLETED AND WE JUST NEED FINAL APPROVAL TO SEND IT OUT TO THE UNIONS.  OKAY. BECAUSE I I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TALKING TO SOMEONE ABOUT THAT. I KNOW THAT LANGUAGE AS WELL AS ANYONE IN THIS CITY ABOUT LEAVE POLICY IMPACTING VETERANS AND MILITARY FAMILIES.  I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TALKING TO SOMEONE I HAVE TALKED TO PEOPLE IN THE PAST AND SO RELATED TO A COUPLE FIREFIGHTER RELATED ISSUES.  THAT'S ALL FOR ME . MR CHAIR, THANK YOU.  TAKING ACCOUNTS OFFLINE ANY OTHER MY COLLEAGUES THANK YOU. COUNCILOR MURPHY THANK YOU, CHAIR AND THANK YOU COUNCILOR OFFLINE FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.  WHAT DATE DOES THIS GO BACK TO ? IT GOES BACK TO JULY ONE, 2020 AND WHEN DOES IT EXPIRE? HAS IT ALREADY OR IS IT YOU KNOW, IT GOES TO 20 JUNE 30TH, 2025 TWO MORE YEARS. OKAY. AND WHEN YOU MENTIONED RETRO,  WAS IT JUST REFERENCING THAT OF COURSE WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO JUNE 2020 OR WAS IT OR ADDITIONAL BUMP IN THEIR SALARY DURING THE COVID TIME?  WELL, THE THE PROVISION THE THE SALARIES IN THIS WILL GO BACK TO WELL THEY HAVE TO RIGHT BECAUSE THIS CONTRACT BUT I'M ASKING WAS THERE MONEY GIVEN TO THE TIME THE POLICE OFFICERS SERVED DURING COVID OTHER THAN WHAT'S LISTED HERE? NO.  SO IT'S JUST THE OBVIOUS RETRO BECAUSE THIS CONTRACT IS OUT OF COMPLIANCE. RIGHT. SO IT'S WHEN IT'S SIGNED THEY WILL GET THE CHECK OF THE MONEY THAT'S DUE TO THEM.  RIGHT. ALTHOUGH THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO CAP BEFORE SO THAT'LL BE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN THEIR SALARIES RIGHT.  BUT THAT WASN'T THEIR FAULT. THAT'S JUST BECAUSE THE CONTRACT HADN'T BEEN SETTLED.  NO IT'S NOBODY'S FAULT THAT'S YEAH I KNOW BUT I'M SAYING LIKE OF COURSE THERE'S THINGS ADDED TO THIS BUT WE'RE ALREADY WHAT THREE, FOUR, THREE AND A HALF YEARS INTO ALMOST FOUR YEARS INTO THIS CONTRACT BUT IT WILL BE FOR ANOTHER YEAR AND A HALF. RIGHT. OKAY.  WHAT WERE WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE BIG ISSUES THAT WERE THE HARDEST TO COME TO SOME AGREEMENT ON? I MEAN I THINK THE DISCIPLINE AND THE REMOVAL OF ANY JUST CAUSE PROVISIONS FROM THE CONTRACT WAS A REALLY WAS A DIFFICULT THING TO GET ANY AGREEMENT ON. WE WANTED TO MORE ON THAT BUT YOU KNOW WE'RE CHIPPING AWAY AT IT AND GOT IT. THAT'S SOMETHING WE WANTED SOME ACCOUNTABILITY FOR POLICE OFFICERS WHO COMMIT CRIMES AND DO THOSE KIND OF THINGS.  THE DETAIL SYSTEM IS SUPER COMPLICATED SO THAT WAS THAT WAS ANOTHER BIG ISSUE WHO WILL OVERSEE THAT? LIKE IF SO I AM HEARING THAT IT'S NOT GOING SMOOTHLY. SO WHO IS IN CHARGE OF HELPING WORK OUT THOSE KINKS BECAUSE DID IT SHIFT FROM LIKE SERGEANTS OR WHO USED TO BE IN CHARGE OF GIVING OUT THE DETAILS I MEAN IN CHARGE OF THAT IT'S STILL ULTIMATELY ENDS UP WITH THE POLICE COMMISSIONER AND HIS COMMAND STAFF AND HE YOU KNOW, PUT THERE'S A SUPERINTENDENT IN CHARGE OF THAT AND HE HAS OTHER PEOPLE WORKING WITH HIM ON IT.  SO IT'S YOU KNOW, SWORN OFFICERS ARE ARE IN CHARGE OF IT.  ALL RIGHT. WERE THERE ANY OTHERS WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT WE ALSO TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE ARMY, THE MEDICAL INCAPACITATED UNIT AND THERE WERE THERE WAS ALMOST 10% OF IN THE WHOLE OF THE POLICE UNIT WAS ON MEDICAL LEAVE GETTING FULL PAY, NOT WORKING SOMETIMES FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND WE WERE BACKFILLING IT WITH OVERTIME. SO WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT BOTH INTERNALLY AND IN THE CONTRACT HOW TO MAKE THAT WORK A LITTLE BETTER EITHER TO GET PEOPLE WHO ARE ABLE TO COME BACK TO WORK OR IF THEY'RE NOT TO GET THEM THE DISABILITY RETIREMENT WE FILL THAT POSITION. SO IT WAS WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THAT NOT AS MUCH IN THE CONTRACT BUT I THINK INTERNALLY THE DEPARTMENT'S TRYING TO KEEP UP ON THE BETTER AS WELL AND THEN I THINK UNION RELEASE WAS OUR OTHER SORT OF JUST NOT ALL OF THEM BUT SOME OVER USING TIME OFF FOR UNION RELEASE TO MAKE THAT A LITTLE MORE FAIR AND GET SOME OFFICERS ON THE STREET WHEN WE COULD. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S HELPFUL. THANK YEAH I THINK COUNCILOR MURPHY COUNCILOR FITZGERALD YEAH.  JUST WANTED MORE FOR THE FOLKS IF THEY WOULD LISTEN AND THE THE T CAP CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS AND WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT IN THIS NOT LINKING THAT TO YOU WANT ME TO EXPLAIN IT?  IT'S KIND OF COMPLICATED. IT'S IT'S BASICALLY TO REPLACE A CRY. ALL RIGHT, I'LL TRY SO YOU CAN GIVE ME THE CLIFFSNOTES. THAT'S FINE. YEAH, I KNOW FOLKS GOT AN ECLIPSE THEY WANT TO GO SEE AND STUFF RIGHT?  SO THEY HAD A DIFFERENT LONGEVITY PLAN CALLED CRYO WHICH STANDS FOR CUMULATIVE RISK RISK?  YES. RIGHT. AND WE GOT RID OF THAT AND THE T CAP IS A SIMILAR IS A SYSTEM SIMILAR TO WHAT THE FIREFIGHTERS HAVE AND IT IS A LONGEVITY PLAN BASED ON 1% OF YOUR SALARY AS IS DUTY AND WE CAN WE CAN DIFFERENTIAL NIGHT DIFFERENTIAL AND THAT I ADDED ON TO THE AMOUNT SET IN THE CONTRACT EACH YEAR AND IS PAID ON A WEEKLY BASIS. THANK YOU. YES.  YEP. SO THAT'S IT'S A CALCULATION WHICH TRANSLATES TO A LUMP SUM AMOUNT IN A WEEKLY CONTRACT. YEP. UNDERSTOOD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH AGAIN FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU, JIM. THANK YOU. COUNCILOR FITZGERALD. AND AGAIN THANK YOU TO THE ADMINISTRATION, THE UNIONS, ALL OUR POLICE OFFICERS OUT THERE FOR ALL THEIR HARD WORK. AND WITH THAT SAID, THIS HEARING ON DOCKETS NUMBER 053020533A DOCKET NUMBER IS 063120632 IS ADJOURNED --------- [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] oh [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I [Music] [Music] [Music] come [Music] [Music] sh [Music] for [Music] what [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] good morning everyone happy solar eclipse day today uh my name is Liz Braden City councelor for District 9 and I'm the chair of the Boston city council committee on Housing and Community Development today is April 8th 2024 this hearing is being recorded it is also being live streamed at boston.gov city-council DTV and broadcast on exfinity Channel 8 RCN channel 82 and FiOS channel 96 4 written comments may be sent to the committee email at CCC Doh housing at boston.gov and will be made available as part of the record and and available to all counselors most public testimony will be taken at the end of the hearing the chair will recognize a few attendees to testify at the start of the hearing to Center the voices of individuals most impacted by the topics of this morning's hearing in individuals will be called on in the order in which they signed up and will have 2 minutes to testify if you're interested in testifying in person please add your name to the sheet near the entrance of the chamber if you will testify virtually please email our Central staff liazon Ron cob r n. Cobb boston.gov for the link under name will be added to the list today's hearing is on two dockets docket number one no 0202 order for a hearing on addressing and improving fair housing practices in the city of Boston and docket 0414 order for a hearing to explore programs the city of Boston offers or could establish to prevent illegal discrimination by landlords and real estate brokers against prospective tenants UT utilizing housing Choice vouchers docket 0202 was sponsored by councelor louisan councilors louisian and Braden myself and referred to the committee on January 24th 2024 docket 0414 was sponsored by councelor Santana Weber and lisian and was referred to the committee on February 28th 2024 I am joined uh today I am joined by my colleagues in the order of AR arrival sponsor councelor luisen uh councelor Santana um councelor Weber councelor Durkin and I also have a letter of apology from uh councelor Keta which I will read into the record dear chair bradden and Council colleagues I regret to to inform you that I will be absent from today's Committee hearing on docket 0202 addressing improving fair housing practices in the city of Boston and 0414 exploring programs the city of Boston offers or could establish to prevent illegal discrimination by landlords and real estate brokers against prospective tenants utilizing housing Choice vouchers I am unfortunately under the weather but my staff will be listening in and I will review the recording kindly read this letter into the record ensuring we are improving our fair housing practices across the city is essential especially for our lowincome community members in East Boston I've also heard directly from many district one residents who have experienced voucher discrimination it is imperative that we address these housing inequities for our residents and I look forward to working with you to find effective solutions to these issues sincerely Gabriella Keta Boston City councelor District One got it so with this morning uh we will open uh this hearing with T public testimony uh centering voices of impacted residents so we're going to be joined uh virtually by Miss Nikita Hayward uh who's on Zoom uh and she will speak to her experience her lived experience uh uh as an impacted resident good good morning good morning Nikita you have the floor my good morning everyone my name is Nikita Haywood I'm here to share my experience in the numerous occasions I've been victim of racial and discrimination against voucher holders when looking for an apartment in Boston I live in Dorchester and I'm a proud parent of two sons and who two daughters who range in the age of age 26 to 11 years old I'm also a proud graduate of the one family scholar program and in 2019 I graduated from Springfield College at a bachelor's degree in human services since January of 2022 I've worked in the emergency department at Boston Medical Center where I conduct Mental Health crisis assessments and substance abuse assessments my career goal is to become an addiction addiction recovery counselor so that I can provide for my family while at the same time giving back to my community due to the housing discrimination that I experienced for a stretch of many years from 2001 and continuing until 2022 I found it extremely difficult to find housing in several Massachusetts communities for many years my family and I were forced to live in Vermin infested run down apartments in very unsafe neighborhoods in Boston no family should ever have to endure what we went through some of the conditions that we were exposed to was Community violence um infestation of um roaches mices things like that I kept the law documenting the discriminations that I face when looking for a decent place to live for my family and I for example one real estate broker told me that my voice sounded very ethnic and scary and hung up on me on many occasions rental agents have informed me that they were interested and rented to voucher holders on other occasions soon as I mentioned my voucher I was told that I would need to have a credit score of at least 780 and told total move in cost would be in the tens of thousands of dollars other times I've been able to view an apartment for rent the broker's body language said what they wouldn't put into words so I am not the type of tenant probably that they were looking for I got to the point where I wondered if my family and I would ever find a decent place to live it seemed like America we finally found the beautiful apartment in a nice part of doorchester last year and I thank God now we have a safe place to call home with plenty of room for all of us my salary covers the Lion Share of the monthly rent but the voucher makes it a little more comfortable but it took us far too long to reach this place in our lives largely because of the housing discriminations that we experien and due to that discrimination my children were repeatedly exposed to traumatic violence in the neighborhood and we were for that we were forced to live with in and it continued to impact them to this very day I urge the city council to take steps to end housing discrimination in particular I urge members of the city counselor to reach out to state representative Adrien uh to offer support of legislation that has been filed and act to inhouse and discrimination in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts thank you very much Nikita thank you for your testimony this morning so this morning we have two panels I'll just go over our invited panelists uh panel one for the administration is Mr Robert Terrell executive director of The Office of fair housing and Equity Mr Nick Kelly director of innovation and research at the Boston Housing Authority Ms Virginia Albert senior civil rights adviser at the Boston Housing Authority our second panel is non- City organization and Advocates Miss Whitney Demetrius director of fair housing and Municipal engagement and citizens housing and Planning Association chaa Mr Jacob love staff attorney at lawyers for civil rights Miss Kelly V Vera pardon me if I'm mispronouncing your name director of Investigations and Outreach clinical fellow on housing discrimination testing program at suffk University Law School we also will be REM uh have remote testimony from Miss Ashley Grant director of fair housing enforcement housing discrimination testing program at the Bost at suffk University law school so with no further Ado I will ask my um the uh colleagues to make a brief opening remarks I will start with uh council president uh Louis Jen uh thank you uh Madam chair and good morning everyone um happy solar eclipse Monday I am grateful for everyone who is here I'm grateful for the leadership of Bob Terrell in our fair housing office and for all the Advocates I'm grateful for my colleague councilor Santana for his focus on fair housing with respect to um fure discrimination and I want to thank you Nikita for offering your testimony um fair housing means that everyone should have a say have the same chance to find a home no matter what they look like they income level um or where they come from it's about making sure that all people are treated fairly when they're looking to renter by a home um we think that we celebrate the fair housing act that was no easy feat um and that Martin Luther King had championed and we last week recognized his assassination on April f on April 4th and thinking about how that was really the Catalyst for the Fair Housing Act something so dire and we continue to celebrate it but also to to miss the mark when it comes to enforcement and so I'm looking forward to hearing from the panel about what we can can do in terms of uh internally at the city but also partnering with our organizations when it comes to what we have that control over on the city council which is the budget and seeing if we are adequately investing in the gold standard of paired uh of paired testing if we are investing sufficiently in education programs um and so I'm I'm grateful for this conversation I also want to uplift Carol lasy and Fenway who um had me write about fair housing in the Fenway news and I think that there's really great um interest in how we're complying with fair housing in the city of Boston so I'm just looking forward to this conversation and I know that lawyers for civil rights and so many others have a lot to share with us so I'm looking forward to this conversation thank you councelor Luigi and we've been also joined this morning by councelor Fitzgerald uh councelor Tanya Fernandez Anderson councelor Mahia got everybody um thank you um councelor Santana would you like to make some opening remarks thank you madam chair and thank you to my co-sponsors on the hearing order I filed on housing Choice fure discrimination councelor Weber and councelor president L Jen I also want to thank president L Jen for your leadership on a separate hearing order on Fair Housing practices in Boston and for offering to partner for today's hearing to address these connected topics all at once I'm grateful for chair Breeden and councelor Ro for joining that joining that matters as co-sponsors as well and to all my colleagues for joining us today today it's truly an honor to serve on this body alongside so many other housing Advocates I want to reaffirm reaffirm a fundamental truth housing is a human right the most basic step of living up to that vision is preventing direct discrimination against people when they're renting or buying a home getting a mortgage or seeking housing assistance 56 years ago this week the federal fair housing act established in law this most basic idea that people should be able to pursue a place to live without regard to their race color national origin SE sex family status religion or disability not that anyone should have any special rights or access just that the playing field should be level and here in Boston we're fortunate to have additional city and state laws in place which extend protections against housing discrimination to include income Source including housing vouchers as well as age martial status veteran or active military stat status and genetic information and our local laws also include explicit protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity which is which is especially critical in this era when when we see increasing legislative attacks against our lgbtq plus Community particularly our trans non-binary and gender expansive siblings and when we've seen just how fragile our federal protections can be but we we know just having laws isn't enough we have to enforce them too despite our laws evidence continues to show that housing discrimination is a widespread problem and we shouldn't accept that discrimination against housing Choice voucher holders is particularly rampant we know that we know that from personal lived experience my huge gratitude to Nikia Haywood for joining us today um to share your story and we know it from cases that the city of fair housing and Equity has worked on and I'm grateful to have director Bob trell here with us today and we know it from data in fact a 2020 suff law study found discrimination in 86% of tests with housing providers in Greater Boston we're fortunate to have with us today today director K riera who has worked on suffix law studies of housing discrimination in Boston including performing over 200 tests we know testing is important part of the solution and I'm excited to learn from your expertise and discrimination hasn't stopped since 2020 we know this from testing per from testing performed by the housing rights initiative and a lwuit file by lawyers for civil rights just a few weeks ago against 20 Boston area landlords that HRI found evidence are discriminating I'm honored to welcome attorney Jacob love from LCR to our P today housing Choice vowers are meant to allow people to choose a place to rent in any neighborhood including ones that would often otherwise be unaffordable yet we know discrimination makes it a struggle for voucher holders to find a home to rent in Boston so renters don't get access to all neighborhoods we know this from data too a 2016 study of Boston Housing Authority um data found that 76% of Boston area voucher recipients live in lower opportunity neighborhoods I'm grateful to have director of innovation and research Nick Kelly and Senior civil rights advisor Virginia Albert from BHA here with us today on our panel and I want to thank director Whitney Demetrius for your work on Fair house in with chaa and Boston and throughout Massachusetts and for joining us today on our panel we know that voucher discrimination is a critical issue to address because so many people rely on housing vouchers to help cover the affordability gap for our expensive rents in Boston over 90,000 households in Massachusetts benefit from the federal housing Choice vouer program most of these households are seniors children or people with disabilities and 10,000 households receive vental assistance from the Massachusetts Voucher Program which is actually the largest state funded rental assistance program in the country and here in Boston we have a city run voucher program as well and rental assistance has been proven highly effective at ending family homelessness a HUD study found families living in homeless shelters were twice as likely to remain um in stable housing when provided a Housing Voucher by comparison to other support like continued shelter rapid rehousing and transitional housing everyone deserves a home and and everyone deserves Fair access when trying to find one and we know that's not happening all the time I look forward to today's discussion to see how we can continue to improve that throughout the work here together thank you so much Madam chair thank you councelor Santana um councelor Weber uh thank you chair uh thank you Madame President s um sorry L Jen and councelor Santana for for bringing this um you know uh discrimination based on housing vouchers is uh is is is is is Insidious you know the people who need housing we don't have enough uh affordable housing we don't have enough BHA housing here in Boston and the voucher program is uh designed to help people most in need but as this suffk uh law school study and the lawyers for civil rights and housing rights initiative action show it's actually it's it's it's not just a a a a once in a while occurrence it's it's the standard here in Boston is that 86% of people who have vouchers experience discrimination in trying to find housing uh and I'd highlight in the lawsuit filed by lawyers for civil rights and housing rights initiative that they did a random uh they contacted landlords randomly they didn't Target you know the worst practitioners they looked at uh uh you know a real estate ads or or and reached out to people through text and and and what they found was widespread discrimination against voucher holders and so um you know it's something that uh we need to do everything we can to Stamp Out in our city and make sure that people hold vouchers you know uh can can get the housing uh they need thank thank you very much thank you councelor Weber um councelor Durkin you have the floor thank you so much chair and thank you so much to councelor Santana and council president R Jen for your focus on housing this conversation couldn't be more important expanding the housing stock at all price points in Boston and all cities around Boston to meet the needs of affordable housing is essential our lack of affordable housing poses a threat to our Region's Prosperity but what we realize is that it isn't just about Supply it's also an issue of access to the existing housing supply for those that are left behind with onfair practices that seek to deprioritize voucher holders and those in need of affordable subsidies the entrenched discrimination of our housing practice requires close examination especially 56 years since the passage of the fair housing act we know that the source of income based discrimination exists we must address it expose it and combat it at every step to eliminate barriers to using vouchers and create parity and fairness in systems that have bred inequities let us Center opportunity and Justice in this conversation and in this fight and look forward to seeing what we can do about eliminating credit checks and what we can do as City councilors in development and the article 80 process to make sure that all developers um and new built housing comply uh with what we want to see which is that everyone can Access housing thank you thank you councelor Durkin councelor um councelor Fitzgerald uh thank you madam chair and thank you Council Santana Luen uh Council Weber for bringing these forward uh I here to learn a lot about what this is about um and and I'm very interested to hear from the panels it's certainly a concern uh that we have everybody deserves a right to to fair housing um and if there's any discrimination of any kind that's uh that's the lowest common denominator of of um uh future issues so we we just need to Snuff this out at the beginning um so here to learn here to look forward to it thank you very much chair thank you councelor Fitzgerald councelor Fernandez Anderson you have the flooor thank you madam chair um good morning everyone uh looking forward to this conversation um obviously uh lots of experience advocating for folks um along um you know whether it be Section 8 or metro housing or Boston Housing um but on different levels it's not just people with Section 8 but people undocumented folks as well um sometimes don't ask don't tell policies is not necessarily um at at her too so um just looking forward to understanding exactly where to go with this as you guys know I filed uh ordinance to actually Implement some metrics um against discrimination and um to um guarantee or to ensure uh better fair housing um as well as last year um uh filed as well on um rental or um real estate fees and how that's also uh folks are also discriminated against um based on whether or not you have enough money um to pay those real estate fees so um I think this conversation can expand to uh further than just discrimination around whether or not you have section 8 um looking forward to bringing my point of views and hearing my colleagues as well as panelists thank you thank you councelor Fernandes Anderson counselor Mia you have the floor good morning Madam chair thank you to the sponsors for hosting this hearing I think you know I I I always uh like to invoke the spirit of my previous colleague councelor L who always talks about that the political is personal and I think that as we continue to have these conversations recognizing that you know the lived experience of those who have been discriminated against often times are displaced and no longer living here in the city of Boston so all of these things are inter connected and I also think that as we're talking about discrimination you know I really want to also highlight um that it is race is definitely a factor but I also think that there's a a targeted hit on people of low income status so whether they're poor white poor black poor Latino I just think that poverty is under attack and I think that when we're talking about discrimination I think that there is a targeted um a uh impact on folks who are low income and I think that that discrimination I just want to uplift um because Section 8 everybody's getting rich off of it um to be honest with you there are a lot of people who are homeowners here in the city of Boston that don't live here but they own triple Deckers and they live outside of Massachusetts and sometimes out in the suburbs but yet they are still discriminating against the very same people who they are trying to make a buck out of so looking forward to talking about it figuring out what we need to do to change that thank you thank you councelor Mahia we've been joined by councelor uh councelor Ed Flyn uh coun Finn would you like to make some opening remarks no thank you madam chair okay thank excuse me um Madam chair oh councelor we've also been joined by councelor um Erin Murphy councelor Murphy you have the floor thank you chair um happy to be here to talk we should always be looking at any City program making sure that all of them are running properly and if any of them are doing any illegal action that would be against residents and hindering them to have an opportunity to have a house and have a a way to you know support themselves it's important that we level the playing field and make sure that there's no illegal discrimination to any residents or anyone coming into the city looking to live here so happy for this conversation and continue advocating thank you councelor Murphy um as the chair of housing I really feel that our voucher programs across the many vouchers programs that we have represents our core values and our belief that housing is a human right housing Choice vouchers are really an essential Tool uh to open up access to housing in every neighborhood of our city for those who cannot afford uh Market rent rental assistance is critical to allowing families elders and residents with disabilities to have stable affordable housing in the city that they um often grew up in or uh which they love and it is one of our most uh and this is one of the most extensive expensive housing markets in the whole country and without housing vouchers so many folks would just not be able to afford to live and work in our city uh housing VES are not uh are are an essential piece of the support is offered to folks who are uh low low income and middle income uh workers in the city who cannot afford full Market rent um and I look forward to the conversation this morning to we really want to ensure that uh that there's fair housing practices been used uh in the administration of vou of our voucher program but also in the uh in their dealings with the real estate industry landlords and Brokers also so I look forward to the conversation um and with that I'd like to invite our our panel uh the non- city organizations and Advocates panel will come first Miss Whitney Demetrius uh doc uh Mr Jacob love and miss Kelly V AA no don't take them two P two pound is that um we also uh if we have not chairs we'll invite the other panel down we'll do we'll do the two panels and you know I think we'll have a a really robust conversation this morning so bringing everybody down at once might be a good idea uh Mr Robert Terell uh from the administration Mr Robert Terell Mr Nick Kelly and Miss Virginia Albert you have come and have a seat as well and if you uh two two people will have to share One mic here as we all squeeze in I think we got enough chairs yeah thank you all for being here this morning bright and early on a Monday morning um I think we'll uh the way we'll work it is just to give each one of you five minutes to speak to the particular issue uh we will start with the uh non The Advocates uh group Miss Whitney Demetrius Mr Jacob love and miss Miss Kelly am I pronounced please it's viea V via ver yes okay got it um I apologize for mispronouncing it um so uh Miss Demetrius would you like to open your with the we'll give everyone five minutes and then we'll go to Q&A wonderful thank you um happy fair housing month thank you um chair Madam chairwoman and um city council for the invitation to speak today um in light of fair housing month there is is certainly an important conversation um my role as director of fair housing and Municipal engagement at Chapa citizens housing and Planning Association I get the opportunity to put fair housing at the Forefront of all of our programmatic work as well as our policy initiatives um and so um what I'm excited about where I played different roles in my career as a testing coordinator um as an advocate as hearing from calls like we heard um the testimony today from um Miss Nikita and hearing those stories I now get the opportunity to begin to put um some of the um changes into practice into policy change and so that that is sort of some of the role and what I'll be talking about today a chapel we believe that everyone has um the opportunity and everyone should to have a safe healthy an affordable and accessible home to live in and that they should be able to make choices about where they want to live free from housing discrimination and so in doing that we understand that fair housing is a protection for all that everyone is a member of a protected class and so our approach to the work really is centered in a lot of the work of my colleagues here uh on the panel um it has everything to do with great uh research and work that that comes out from many of our experts and uh the recommendations that come come from that and while I love a great report what I also love to see is good work and change coming from it so more recently there has been a report um by uh directed by Dr James Jennings that we at Chapa got an opportunity to um play a role in in the research called advancing fair housing in Greater Boston Massachusetts voices from the field um he was uh partnered in his research with um Ashley Harding KY pass and um Robert Terrell and in the reported highlights the need to um first identify what affirmatively furthering fair housing actually is and to ensure the need to amplify voices who are closest to the need when thinking about affordable housing when thinking about um what it means to um what it means to change um different implications around fair housing so I think that report is um is really crucial in thinking about how do we hear from folks to be able to um think about what are the necessary um remedies to um to address these things there's also been a recent report by um researcher Amy danne called exclusionary by design that looked at um race and class and family exclusion in Boston and the suburbs from 1920s until today and looking at how zoning has played an important impactful role in how communities look uh today and how class was used often times as a veal to um really thinking about how to keep races out of communities so there's a lot of research I think that has come out more recently um and what I'm excited about is that Chap's priorities all of our priorities are fair housing priorities what I'm excited to see is the State Office of fair housing and the Fair Housing Trust Fund that's included in the governor's Bond bill which is going to be I think an opportunity to address a lot of these issues that we see not only in Greater Boston but for the entire State um having a State Office of fair housing will allow for their to be an Appo an appointed body that looks and pays close attention to what it means to um address activities to eliminate housing discrimination and to affirmatively further fair housing across the state in addition to a fair housing trust fund that fair housing trust fund will allow for money and as I think um was already mentioned here today we understand that um a budget is a moral document and where we put our money and our resources and our time um is important in terms of how we address fair housing issues and so I think some of what can come out of that fair housing trust fund is to be able to fund more reports from the suff laws housing discrimination testing program be able to support the city of Boston's Fair Housing Commission be able to do special projects around exclusionary zoning it could be a place where all of the research around fair housing can be housed it is a place where we can um fund um organizations to do appraisal testing which I think is so crucial and important in a time like this not just just thinking about discrimination as it Rel relates to rent and mortgage and lending and insurance um and sales but also appraisal so thinking about it from an entire spectrum of the housing market um the State Office of fair housing has so much potential to really be able to put fair housing at the Forefront of all of the issues and to do education and Outreach not only so that people know what their rights are but also so that housing providers do not violate the law as well um so there's so much to be done I think under the State Office of fair housing and the Fair Housing Trust Fund that I think we should pay close attention to while at Chapel we also are are constantly putting people first at the um before all of our work as we think about production and planning and preservation um again as I mentioned all of our our policies are fair housing policies so thinking about eviction record sealing and access to counsil in eviction match savings programs um zoning reforms prohibiting exclusionary zoning um zero carbon renovation funds Massachusetts healthy homes program all of these different things together collectively are fair housing issues so I'm excited to I'm thankful to be able to be here today to speak on these issues um and open to any questions that you may have thank you thank you um Mr love would you like to take you have the floor thank you good morning my name is Jacob love and I'm a Staff attorney at lawyers for civil rights a nonprofit legal advocacy organization in Boston first I'd like to say thank you thank you to councelor Braden and this committee for having me here today Boston's ongoing affordable housing crisis as everyone here likely knows is the city's most pressing public health and civil rights issue not only is our housing Supply woefully insufficient to meet demand driving up prices to stratospheric Heights but the KnockOn harms are felt most acutely in Boston's low-income households and communities of color families are being forced out of neighborhoods where they live for Generations by ever Rising costs and those that have managed to stay p often have to sacrifice on other necessities like food medication and utilities just to make their rent payments each month on top of that our state's homeless shelters are overwhelmed by families with children who have fallen victim to the endless Financial pressures that such a merciless housing market puts on people solving these problems will no doubt take all the time and attention this body can spare in the coming years but sadly I'm here to talk about an even more disturbing issue in Boston's residential space and that's the rampant Shameless discrimination that housing providers are subjecting low-income bostonians to throughout the city for much of the last year lcr's client the housing rights initiative investigated landlord and real estate broker practices regarding subsidized housing vouchers commonly known as Section 8 vouchers building on a long history of civil rights testing practices they had testers pose as voucher holders and inquire about private apartment listings Over and Over landlords and Brokers responded positively to tester Outreach until the moment the testers asked if they could if they would be able to use their housing vouchers on rent at that point the housing vouchers the housing providers either ghosted the testers entirely or even worse openly told the tester that they would not accept vouchers Massachusetts law explicitly forbids this kind of discrimination that's why in February we filed a lawsuit on behalf of HRI against 20 Boston area landlords and real estate brokers seeking to hold them accountable for these kinds of practices the complaint includes scores of damning text message screenshots demonstrating the brazenness with which this happens housing vouchers are designed to help low-income families secure quality housing in their preferred neighborhood by subsidizing a portion of the rent in the midst of the affordable housing crisis vouchers are often the only way that thousands of families can get and keep a roof over their heads widespread voucher discrimination impedes the Housing search process prolonging the time that voucher approved families must spend in homeless shelters on the streets or in substandard dwellings this destabilizes and endangers families and children it also entrenches Boston's racially segregated housing patterns bostonians of color are overwhelmingly concentrated in low-income areas with fewer public resources than similarly situated white families voucher discrimination perpetuates this Reality by limiting the options available to voucher holders outside of those areas for many years anti-discrimination laws just haven't been enough to deter housing providers from acting illegally voucher holders frequently don't have the time or resources to report illegal practices let alone to sue landlords who engage in them so despite how widespread voucher discrimination is in Boston it almost always goes unpunished that has to stop State and Municipal governments have it within their power to enforce anti-discrimination laws the US Department of Justice has a dedicated fair housing testing program and there's no reason why that program can't be replicated at the local level the Boston city council can and should invest its resources in preventing voucher discrimination either by creating a testing program or through some other means and I close now by calling on this body to start that critical process today thanks very much for your time and I'd be Happ happy to answer any questions you have thank you Mr love um Miss Vera um I understand you have a present you'd like to share with us on I do thank you madam chair and thank you to the council um I do have some slides today as I'll be citing some figures from our research studies um and I'll be going through those as I um speak today thank you so much to the chair and to the council for invitation for us to testify today and I'd also like to thank you for holding this hearing which addresses the critical issue of housing discrimination especially during as uh my colleague Whitney mentioned during fair housing month in April my name is Kelly viea I'm an I'm an attorney a test coordinator and a Boston resident I'm also the director of Investigations and Outreach at suff University law schools housing discrimination testing program which I'll call HTTP for short the HTTP is a full service fair housing nonprofit which engages in housing discrimination testing education and Outreach enforcement curriculum development and academic studies since 2012 hdtp has conducted over a thousand discrimination tests published Empirical research studies brought thousands of dollars of damages to victims of discrimination and we've educated thousands of people about their fair housing rights and responsibilities the HTP is housed right in the heart of Boston in fact it's right down the street at suff University law school from its Inception over a decade ago the HTTP has served the city of Boston and its surrounding communities 133 years ago Victoria Williams then director of of the city of Boston's office of fair housing and equity approached hdp's academic director director Professor Bill Burman who at the time was running the housing law clinic at suffk she asked if it was possible to create a housing discrimination testing program it was a lofty Endeavor but it was one that Professor Burman decided to take on when funding became available soon after the program was started from scratch with the intention of investigating the issue of housing discrimination in Boston during that time Professor Burman brought on attorney Jamie lowski who's now the program academic or administrative director to help with running discrimination tests across the city to great success in the years since HTP has expanded in many ways but the majority of our testing remains focused on the Boston metro area which is our home base I'll very briefly describe what testing is for anyone who's unfamiliar um the best way to describe it is that it's very similar to secret shopping instead of sending Shoppers to real retail stores we send our volunteers who we call testers who are trained to uh pose as prospective renters and inquire about housing testing is an investigative tool that's crucial in the fight for fair housing often housing discrimination can manifest in very subtle ways and it can be very difficult to prove an individual may feel strongly that they were discriminated against but remain unsure in how to prove their case in court that's where testing comes in through testing we're able to carefully compare how our testers are treated and document the typical business practices of owners landlords real estate professionals Brokers and property managers far too often like attorney love just described um moments ago testing reveals that the mere mention of a Housing Voucher can lead to discrimination in the form of ghosting not being offer tours or even as attorney love mentioned explicit statements denying housing just because someone will be using a housing voucher voucher holders are one of the protected classes most likely to hear explicit straightforward discriminatory statements whether that be from the housing provider's ignorance of the law or simple unwillingness to abide by it in 2020 through the support of the Boston Foundation HTTP released an empirical study called qualified Ventures need not apply which I'll be ref referencing in my slides that study um comprised of extensive testing in um the Boston metro area from 2018 to 2019 and it found disturbingly high levels of discrimination um both against black resp prospective renters and voucher holders the statistics which are very verified through hp's partnership with one of the largest economic consulting firms the consult uh the analysis group showed even higher levels of discrimination than initially expected um so the way that we designed this study is through what is called pair testing where we were sent out testers who were given very similar profiles um they were all equally qualified to rent they all could afford the apartments that we were investigating including the voucher holders um we controlled for all elements except for whether they had a voucher holder and their race so you see on the screens here um we trained 200 individual testers for this study 100 white testers and 100 black testers and then we split those two pools based on market rate and who would be representing that they had a voucher um and we sent uh four testers one from each category to each individual apartment and um this is just a bit more about pair testing but essentially what we did was control for everything so they would have the same type of credit the same rental history they would have very similar jobs they could all afford the apartment whether they were market rate or using a voucher and they would be similar in all other ways like all the testers would be single or um all of them would be the same uh sex um for the purposes of the test and what we found is that a staggering aing six% of our vou of our testers who represented they had a voucher were discriminated against in this study and additionally 71% of our black testers experienced discrimination whether they said they had a voucher or not despite these properties being completely randomly selected testing still uncovered um this pattern of rampant discrimination across the board um in the Boston area looking closer at this data we see that https research reflects what we know um through anecdotes including uh What uh Miss Haywood uh talked about this morning in terms of lived experience housing discrimination is commonly subtle taking the form of what uh the study call discrimination with a smile although housing providers were usually polite to our testers they still experience discrimination for example ghosting was a consistent is issue testers might be promised that they would get a call back only to never hear from the housing Pro provider again once they mention the voucher in our study um housing providers ghosted 40% or ghosted our voucher testers 40% of the time or over 40% of the time and this is a chart kind of talking about the statistical uh analysis here um what we found is that even when voucher or even when housing providers told voucher holders that their voucher was not a problem they would still discriminate against those testers 81% of the time our research also just demonstrated that if you are someone who has a voucher to actually Tour 10 units you would need to call around 50 imagine the time it takes to inquire and call 50 Apartments now imagine how much more stressful that would be if you only had a few months to find an apartment because if you take too long you will lose your voucher a voucher that people sometimes wait a decade for the HP has represented clients who were at risk of losing housing altogether solely because they were being discriminated against so often while looking for an apartment while they had a voucher um this is another chart um from our study it's just showing the disparities and how often testers would get to tour an apartment essentially you had the most likely chance to tour an apartment if you were a white tester without a voucher if you had a voucher regardless of your race your chance of seeing the unit goes way down as you can see by the colored bars which are much um smaller um I will U move on to another study that we or another project that we did um the stats in our study make it clear if you're a prospective renter who has a housing voucher or your prospective black renter you are much more likely to be discriminated against than to be treated fairly this cannot be accepted as a norm discrimination harms the most vulnerable members of our community and in facts it harms the entire community at Large and it has to be addressed proactively after our study was released we are proud to say that proactive change did happen um after the seeing our study the city's off BOS the city of Boston's office of fair housing and Equity approached HTTP and asked us to start a brand new testing project um focused on the city of Boston the city partnered with HTTP and provided funding to hire a full-time test coordinator who would do extensive testing in Boston with a special focus on race and source of income um I was that test coordinator who was hired um in 2020 and I joined in November of that year over the next 15 months I performed 100 discrimination tests in the city of Boston covering every NE neighborhood in Boston as um more funding became available the next year the project was renewed um and one of my colleagues who I oversaw conducted 80 more tests in the city of Boston our partnership led to real outcomes in just the first 15 months of the project over 66,000 or at least $66,000 in settlements were achieved as a direct result of test evidence um meaning that um there was no complainant it was just test evidence that found discrimination the city filed ageny initiated complaints and the housing providers were bought to account if that testing had not happened it's possible that those housing providers never would have been held accountable for um their illegal discriminatory acts um I owe a lot of My Success in the project of being a Boston resident myself um I've lived in the Greater Boston area for over a decade and I've lived in three different Boston neighborhoods I currently live in Dorchester um as a I guess you could call me an honorary Bostonian I've become very familiar with the different parts of Boston the personality of different areas the socioeconomic demographics of different neighborhoods and that was a huge benefit because I could design tests that were focused on um what might be problematic about different parts of Boston and unfortunately what we found during that uh testing effort in Boston is again high levels of discrimination um in the 100 tests that I did between January 2021 and February 2022 we we found evidence of discrimination 46% of the time so almost half Nar it down to just tests that focus on um housing uh related to voucher holders um 47.5% of those tests discovered um evidence of discrimination and during that second year of the project um we also saw significant levels of discrimination testing is one of the many ways that we can fight towards more Equitable housing access um in the city's exploration of potentially expanding fair housing efforts we encourage the C Al to consider the immeasurable valuable value of test evidence the impact it can have on both individuals who dis uh experience discrimination and the community at large um in fact my colleague Ashley Brant will testify later to the individual impacts it can have on people who are suffering from discrimination should the funding become available the HTTP is a uh you know a fully running testing program that has lots of experience doing this type of work we're fortunate to have a very large Chester pool we have over 100 testers active at any given time most of them um calling the Boston area their home and we are continually expanding our tester pool um with year round recruitment efforts because our tester pool is so uh wide and so large we do have the opportunity to test across protected categories and um with our current pool and our team of test coordinators we have the capacity to start a new testing program immediately if the opportunity arose so again um I thank the council for the opportunity to testify and to talk about um what we've uncovered in terms of housing discrimination and I uh I I'm thankful for the city of Boston's continued commitment for serving its residents and ensuring fair housing for all thank you thank you thank you for all your work and thank you for your very comprehensive explanation of your testing program um I think we'll just keep going with the panel and then we'll keep and then we'll have our Q&A at the because I think there's a lot of uh intersectionality across the the conversation um Mr Terell you have the floor thank you chair and good morning to you and members of the committee first of all let me compliment the members of the city council it's not often when we have a hearing of this type an 11 out of 13 members of the city council are present and I think that's very significant given the fact that this is the first week of fair housing month a time when we honor those who gave their lives for the rights we enjoy it's also a time for us to recommit ourselves to the very difficult work that lies ahead the Boston Fair Housing Commission was established in 1982 Council Anderson you'd be glad to know that that was your predecessor City councelor Bruce bowling that wrote Our ordinance and we live up to that ordinance every day the fair housing commission is based on five major areas of work one and most importantly is enforcement and investigations that is where we review complaints and if we find the complaint has Merit we're authorized to take sanctions against those who have broken the law often times when we do fair housing trainings we have to remind people that housing discrimination is not just a mere inconvenience that causes a great deal of stress and Trauma it is illegal they are breaking the law and they're injuring people so investigations and enforcement is the pillar that drives everything in our commission secondly is education and Outreach it is essential that people throughout the city of Boston know and understand understand what their rights and protections are we know from numerous studies in the past that for every complaint we get seven people did not come forward so we are beefing up our education and Outreach work we just hired someone to manage that part of our operation in her first six weeks she's already attended or organized seven Outreach and education events the purpose of which is to find those seven people and have them come and file a complaint with us and I can tell you Council of Santana that given your interest specifically in Section 8 voucher holders we're not seeing enough complaints we need people to come forward parallel to that we're also initiating a public relations campaign to raise the profile of the commission so that people know who we are where we are where to find us and where to file a complaint so counselors if you get a constituent that comes to you and you believe that it is a fair housing situation please refer them to us immediately under our ordinance they have 180 days to file a complaint from the time of the infraction we will be back to the council at sometime in the near future asking you to help us amend our ordinance so we can make it 365 days which would be equivalent to what mcad and HUD offer people that come to them public policy is another important part of our work one of the previous speakers mentioned legislation to create a State Office of Housing and a fair housing trust fund we are supporting that effort because it's important for the state of Massachusetts to start making a contribution to supporting our fair housing infrastructure throughout the common of probably the most important policy work we're doing is on the assessment of fair housing which I and other Advocates worked on for seven years before mayor woo signed the executive order that implemented the assessment we are now working with all those City departments to make sure that they're living up to the goals and objectives that have been laid out for them in the assessment our next meeting will be April 29th and we look forward to that di continuing dialogue with them we also hope to reestablish something here I'm dating myself uh this is my second go round with the commission but many years ago the commission itself had its own fair housing testing program we hope to bring that back the excellent work that you heard previously is what we refer to as systemic testing we want to initiate internal testing program for complaint driven testing so as a complaintant comes through the door we can immediately send out testers to see what we find it's a very effective way of supporting our investigatory work and last but not least litigation there are times when we have to enforce our ordinance by going into court either for a temporary restraining order for subpoena to solicit records and information from respondents I hope in the course of this hearing we can get into further Det details about our work the two dockets that are are before you today posed eight specific areas of concern I spent the weekend going through those eight areas of concern and are prepared to answer some of the questions that those dockets raise but I also want to say something else by way of context we are truly living in dangerous times there is a movement in this country that not only wants to dismantle democracy but wants to take us back to the 19th century they want to go back to the days of py versus Ferguson they want to go back back to where we were before all the great civil rights bills were passed they want to go back before Stonewall and they want to take away a woman's right to choose they want to take away our voting rights they want to stop us from attending institutions of Higher Learning I don't know whether this hearing in terms of the broadcast media who might be listening but if they are listening I have a message for them we're not going back we will never go back we've come too far as people in my community would say we've come this far by faith and we're not going back I would submit to this Council that the best way to defend democracy is to expand it to be even more inclusive more creative and yes more aggressive in every opportunity we have to expand democracy so as we do this work today and in the future to guarant guantee that every person in the city of Boston has a right to live wherever they wish despite who they are where they're from what language they speak what God they pray to we should also keep in mind that this work is part of a much larger historic moment and I hope we meet the moment thank you thank you Mr Terell uh Nick Kelly uh director of innovation research at BHA you have the floor thanks so much for having the Boston Housing Authority here today uh my name is Nicholas Kelly I'm the director of innovation and research at the Boston Housing Authority and in my role I largely oversee our programs to increase Economic Opportunity for our residents I'm also a researcher on Fair Housing issues specifically investing investigating how to increase choice in the Housing Voucher Program so while the BHA is best known for its public housing developments today twice as many families use the housing Choice Voucher Program currently BHA has about 16,000 voucher households compared to a little over 8,000 households in our public housing households with vouchers tend to be very low income and those incomes make it virtually impossible to live in Boston without some type of assistance that's why for many families receiving a voucher can be a Golden Ticket enabling them to pay a Humane amount of rent and an increasingly affordable unaffordable City however despite the promise of housing Choice vouchers for many families there's often little choice in the program at all families using vouchers have faced a number of barriers in using them including bureaucratic inefficiency and unaffordable rents at BHA we've taken significant strides to fix these including moving inspections to a banal basis implementing a modern customer service team and adjusting rents to match zip code level markets in addition our Housing search and landlord team has done extensive work building relationships with landlords and holds regular info sessions to increase landlord participation in the program but despite these efforts discrimination against voucher holders remains rampant the suffk University study already outlined here demonstrated how landlords and Brokers systematically discriminate against vouchers holders and black renters that's why although BHA is not party to the lawsuit we were happy to provide introductions for housing rights initiative to work in Boston and greater Boston and why their lawsuit with lawyers for civil rights is so important their work work has exposed yet again that voucher holders face rampant discrimination in Boston discrimination that is illegal under state law in addition to being illegal voucher discrimination is also misguided ironic and tragic it's misguided because landlords often discriminate based on the myth that voucher inspection requirements are significantly more strenuous than units in the in the rest of the market a myth that uh is not true given that the city has increased requirements for market rate units for inspections it's ironic because voucher holders are more reliable rent payers that's because their rent is backed by the federal government so even if a family loses income they can continue to pay the rent and tragic given holder discrimination negatively impacts some of Boston's most vulnerable residents many of whom are coming out of shelter indeed discrimination can sometimes prevent households from finding a home at all about one out of every four households with BHA never finds an apartment with their voucher even after a full year of searching imagine finally receiving a voucher after living years in a shelter only to be rejected simply because of the way you'll pay the rent it's heartbreaking that high rate of failure which is actually lower than the national average speaks to how rampant discrimination is and why we must do better that's why we hope that this lawsuit will raise awareness that if landlords and Brokers blatantly violate the law they will face consequences we welcome the opportunity to work with the Council on new policies to reduce voucher discrimination first this lawsuit shows the dire need for enhanced enforcement to prevent discrimination against voucher holders we simply do not have Rob enough Rob robust enough enforcement to make the risk of getting caught high enough to change landlord or broker Behavior second BHA supports Banning broker fees the prevalence of which put our voucher holders at a severe disadvantage compared to other buyers by disincentivizing Brokers from working with our clients these broker fees are just simply unaffordable for most people let alone voucher holders to conclude we want to thank the council for calling this hearing and dedicating time to this important issue we hope that this lawsuit will spur policymaking and Innovation at the city to address vouter discrimination and the BHA is excited to work with the council and the city to make it a thing of the past thanks so much thank you uh Miss Virginia Albert you have the floor good morning members of the council um just to clarify the record my name is Virgina Albert oh sorry than you um I am an attorney I the senior civil rights advisor at Boston Housing Authorities office of civil rights um in my role I do investigation for housing and employment discrimination cases that come through our office from BHA residents um applicants employees and visitors um to our development I also lead the agency's internal um affirmatively furthering Fair Housing Initiative um and my comments will provide context and insight into what BHA is doing regarding affh and why I will start with the why um as a housing agency we receive federal funding from HUD and obviously we have the obligation to um take action to undo historic segregation patterns and address other types of discrimination that obligation comes from the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and so HUD issues regulation to guide um the agency's implementation um we also get steered by whatever the regulation dictates more recently BHA also has reporting requirement for AF to the city of Boston um after the mayor ru's um January 2022 executive order on ffh and so that also influences the approach that BHA takes when it comes to our affh work I'd like to offer an outline of a timeline that really sort of informs the work so in before 2015 um Hud's requirement was not robust um at the time it was just asking for an analysis of impediment and that was mostly requiring a plan to take action and there weren't any record keep keeping requirements and no reporting structure um then we come to 2015 so in 2015 had released a new Final rule on affh requiring the development of an assessment of fair housing and that required an analysis of fair housing goals um data also to set priorities and um to identify contributing factors to housing and um all the F and and the barriers facing housing so in 2016 city of Boston began creating an assessment with the help of the community advisory committee CAC for short um and they did extensive community outreach so from 2018 to 2020 we saw many changes at HUD um and so unfortunately the 2015 rule was was rescinded and that was rescinded with the 2020 preserving communities rules that did not require any fair housing planning other than to certify compliance so that brings us to 2020 um the city of Boston decided to continue working on the assessment um the CAC continued um putting together their their draft of the assessment and it outlined 14 broad goals and over a 100 particular action steps within those goals in 2021 HUD then released an intrum affh rule that continued the certification requirement it resed the 2020 rule um and it was more of a voluntary um compliance structure but in 2022 mayor Michelle wo signed um an executive order onfh based on the work of the CAC and the draft assessment and so that executive order established a monitoring committee that reviews fair housing goals on progress um goals in progress in 2023 HUD published the most recent final rule on afh and that rule brings us back closer to 2015 on the assessment of fair housing which brings us back to a reporting structure and a focus on data um with the timeline the importance of why I share it is to to outline the sense of urgency that internally generated bha's work that is the certain sense of urgency that I inherit my predecessor Bob Terell was actively involved in the CAC and so he had intimate knowledge um of all the work that they were doing and so in 2022 Boston Housing established um the affh working group that I now lead with our work um the the task is to ensure that BHA is taking meaningful and actionable steps to advance the 22 out of the 100 particular goals that were assigned to BHA and the city's assessment and so you know when Huds new finer rule goes into effect that will also influence our work um but right now the city's um goal is really driving the work that we are doing currently now for the what um so with the group the internal group we meet regularly and we our task is to sit unpacked all of the goals that were assigned to us and so we identify actionable goals um and identify feasible timeline and we we provide updates as to the progress of what we're doing and one of those particular goals was action 4.9 and action 4.9 reference the 2020 suff University Testing study which was already mentioned here um and the the goal was to the goal also referenced the October 2020 um hearing that the council held on affh and so at the time our former administrator Kate Bennett testified um in front of the council as well as former director of OCR Christy Doyle and then also Bob trra also test um testified to the council and they spoke about the challenges that our voucher holders are facing um when it comes to housing discrimination and the City of Boston in the Greater Boston area so when action 4.9 was assigned to BHA we were we were intimately aware of um the the state of the housing discrimination that our residents are facing it was not a novel issue to us and so the working group obviously we are not able BHA does not have the ability to take um legal enforcement action but we identifi that we had the opportunity to partner and so in 2022 BHA was happy to do the introduction to the housing rights initiative um to Boston in 2022 and so um we applaud the lawsuit brought brought by LCR and HFA hfas um partnership as an identifies the Bad actors that blatantly discriminated against voucher holders and um obviously as my colleague already mentioned BH administers about 16,000 vouchers and the housing discrimination that is so pervasive in the city of Boston really hinders our ability to um assist in housing residents um in the in the B area and so I thank the council members for your time I'm happy to take any an questions on bha's ffh working group um or approach the work and the goals that we are tackling every day thank you thank you so much thank you everyone for your uh testimony uh we're going to open it I just want to acknowledge that councelor guel has has joined us from um District 4 so I'll open up the uh for Q&A U councelor luisan would you like to start uh you got 2 minutes and then we'll we we'll keep it moving and we'll try and come around for a second round if we can so thank you awesome thank you uh chair Braden and I want to just thank this esteemed panel for just all of the incredible Insight on enforcement on testing on the groups that are most discriminated against um and sort of the work that is necessary to invest and also director Terell for the calling and the pointing out that you know ever forward is is the only way um you know we my colleagues and I uh a hearing on a resolution that I sponsor with uh councilor Santana recognized April as fair housing month and I remember um uh Miss Demetrius when we had a panel two years ago you bringing that to our attention and so I want to thank you for being back in this chamber I want to also thank you for something that I talked to director Terell about but you also said about you know testing because I think on that panel that I had you on it was really about discrimination and lending and appraisal and we talked about how we can be doing testing not only in the realm of renting but also in ownership and we know that that contributes to the racial wealth Gap we know that it contributes to displacement and so I really appreciated you elevating that um and so director Terrell you spoke to it I you know the two things that I care most about are pair testing and education awareness campaign and the way that we can do that on the council is via the budget we've invested um you know gratefully in more support for the for your office and we fought for more funding these last two years so that you could do internally the testing that you talked about would love to see that happen and you talked about how there's now a new staff and we're happy that we were able to support that that um will help with that has been attending education um events what would a robust education and this is for you and for the entire panel what would a robust education awareness campaign look like would it it be at our T stations would it be at our bus stops what would it really look like would it be digital um and I think the answer you got all both all will say is both but will it be targeted towards applicants right those who themselves are victims of discrimination or towards those leasing um and renting or selling property takes several different forms one we get a lot of requests from organizations institutions throughout uh the city of Boston to come and do fair housing trainings for their organization uh the most recent one was for the Greater Boston real estate board they usually check in with us once or twice a year and ask us to come out and train their members um so those are sort of catches catch can as the requests come in we honor the requests but we want to be in the next year or so more proactive we want to start setting up fair housing trainings in all of our public libraries and advertise them to folks in the neighborhood so they can come and get all their fair housing questions answered our hope in doing that again as I stated is to get more people to come forward and file complaints and by the way when we say file complaints an individual person can file a complaint on their own behalf or you can file a complaint if you know of a fair housing situation you may not be directly involved but if you know of such a situation you can file the complaint also with regard to the power of systemic testing if we were to look at those test results and we had access to them we as a commission can bring our own complaint we don't have to wait for an individual person to walk through the door we can bring our own complaint that's something that we derive from our federal statute along with the education and Outreach activities we're going to be ramping up as I said earlier a public relations campaign so very soon you're going to be seeing a a lot of Boston Fair Housing Commission presence on social media uh we're going to be doing interviews with folks and posting those videos on our website watch out counselors we may be knocking on your door for an interview we'll make you all famous um so we instituting these uh new activities to raise the profile of the commission and to encourage people to come forward uh with information they have about discrimination occurrences good thank you um councelor Santana you have the floor thank you madam let's start the two minutes thank you mam chair have to give you the mic there you go thank you thank you madam chair um I know a while back um and thank you for our panelists again for for being here um I know a while back suff law did one of the first studies or maybe even the very first study of of the housing discrimination suffered by People based on gender identity and expression um for any of the panelists um are you aware of recent dat for Boston on housing discrimination on the basis of gender identity and expression particularly for our members of our trans Community thank you for the question um so unfortunately I don't I'm so sorry thank you for the question um unfortunately I don't have the numbers from that study on hand today I apologize I I should have brought that along um but I will say um in terms of what that study uncovered the pattern that we saw in that study involving um transgender and gender non-conforming test the way that we designed it is that we sent CIS or non-transgender testers and then testers who are trans or gender non-conforming we sent them out to look uh inquire about apartments and what we saw were high levels of discrimination but the way the Discrimination manifested was uh I think specific to that Community for example what we saw was that um those transgender testers or gender non-conforming testers experienced things like being less likely to be asked their name something as simple as that they would show up to the tour know how are you what's your name remind me your name none of that where we saw that happening with our CIS or non-trans testers we also saw that our trans testers were more likely to be told negative comments about the unit for example um the neighborhood or the unit itself would be framed negatively whereas the housing provider were frame it as a positive um to the cyst testers basically trying to sell it to them more um we also saw that trans testers were less likely to and I'm so sorry I don't have the statistics off hand um but less likely to um be given rent incentives for example being offered if you apply by this date you'll get a free month or you I'll wave the security deposit or things like that and um we were able to uncover that through using testers who are actually trans who were perceived as trans whether it be because of their voice or their name on their um ID not matching the name that they use things like that um so we were able to ensure that it was the fact that our testers were trans or gender non-conforming that was causing these disparities in treatment um and while we haven't released a updated version of that study um at least in in the testing that happens naturally nationally related to that issue it seems that it Still Remains um that these patterns are happening very good thank you um next um councelor Weber you have the floor thank you chair um I guess uh director trell uh so in terms of um complaints do you have numbers on you know how many complaints uh your office receives uh how many complaints do the do we have to turn away people um what um you know what kind of Staffing do you think you need to be able to handle the uh demand last fiscal year we had 120 intakes that resulted in us carrying out 74 investigations 62 of which were Federal 12 were state protected class I'm glad to report to the council uh that in terms of region one under HUD we're the most productive fap agency in New England we actually closed more investigations than anybody else in the Reg region um those then move on in the process to either settlements often times the parties will choose to settle the case on a rare occasion they may ask for an appeal which we Grant and then finally it goes to uh what we call an administrative hearing because our process is quasi judicial it's an administrative process where a commissioner hears the case and as the facts of the case come forward our commissioner is asked to use the Massachusetts Rules of Evidence to figure out what information is really pertinent and then based on that our commissioner will make a recommendation to the full commission and then they vote they may remand it back to the commissioner for further review they may amend the commissioner's recommendation or they may pass it as is when the order is issued by our commission it usually has three elements that are part of it compensatory damages uh for the complainant which may also include the coverage of their legal fees um a civil penalty may be imposed and that's a issue we really need to discuss is the disposition of civil penalties and we always require fair housing training for all the respondents so if it's a real estate broker's office we not only ask that the immediate people that we're a party to the case be trained we want the entire staff trained they can do the training with us they can do it with HUD they can do it with mcad but they have to check back in with us so we know that the training took place okay uh thank you I'll keep going um that your your time is up time per uh fit councelor Fitz General counselor um Durk and counselor Fernandez Anderson you have the floor thank you madam chair um my question is to anyone on the panel really um when you're thinking about all of these issues with discriminatory practices what proactive measures do you think here on the council considering the budget considering that we I and I understand um that uh Mr Terell you've already gone through the process of making a budget recommendation to the mayor um but we are uh at an opportune moment uh budget is upon us next week or this week is it this week um um and uh in terms of whether it be more funding or resources proactive measures that can be implemented in order for us to work on this please I I'm happy to speak to that um you know of course I I spoke a lot about testing um and I do want to emphasize again the really it's hard to measure how valuable testing is because it allows us to create a record of something that often goes hidden um very often often you know those seven people that uh Bob mentioned in terms of uh that don't report it can be for a lot of reasons but sometimes it's they can't they don't report because they don't think that it's enough that they can actually prove that it happened to them it was just a tone that someone took or someone ghosted them but they don't really know why but it did happen right after they mentioned a voucher it's things like that where they're not sure can I even prove that this happened to me it's just my word against the landlord but testing removes that because we investigate and say we sent out testers and during that investigation we saw a pattern where they being treated unfairly based on their protected class so more testing I think always is helpful because it creates that uh that evidence that you might not otherwise have um just to touch a bit on the the previous question about Outreach and education um so my dual role is that I'm director of Outreach and also investigations so on the Outreach side um we uh HTP is part of a a coalition called the fair housing Alliance of Massachusetts or fam um where four different um fair housing nonprofits have come together specifically to focus on the issue of voucher discrimination so for the past year we've been working together to um do uh what is beginning to be a very large Outreach campaign specifically for voucher holders where we're going to be doing things like having ads on the MBTA which you've already um had some experience doing that doing Outreach um in terms of reaching out to housing authorities to landlords to Residents themselves um I can speak to my own experience as director of Outreach at HTP last year I personally trained over 800 people so you can only imagine like I am just one person right so if we have more funding and can hire more people to do Outreach imagine how many we can reach that way um we also uh always consider language access so we've been able to translate materials into different languages um often the most widely spoken languages in Massachusetts like Spanish Portuguese Vietnamese um you know the the kind of the most uh widely spoken languages so more funding always allows us to expand the current work that um organizations and offices around the state are already doing thank you thank you um con Mahia you have the floor and I just want to thank you all this is what it looks like the people who are doing the work right informing the decisions of what we should be fighting for so I'm glad to to be here here and grateful for each of you um I'm curious I'm I'm curious to learn a little bit more about um I know we talked about race but I'm curious about some of the and and I'm sorry if I missed these questions if some my colleagues had asked but around language access like folks some of your testers and your ability like I know sometimes it's race but I'm just curious but what it looks like for non English speakers in terms of discrimination can you talk to us a little bit about any data that exists around that uh sure so um while our study or the studies that I've referen were really focused on Race um and we ended up choosing black testers because we wanted to control we didn't have more we didn't want to have more than one variable so that's why we chose One race to be the focus um but I will say when it comes to language access what we see um usually when it comes to language we slot it into the national origin protected class the idea being we send out a tester who has a a non-american accent and unfortunately what we find often times it's similar they're ghosted they are not given the same information as someone who sounds American so to speak um so that is something unfortunately we' see in testing we do have testers who have non-american accents or who who are not American who immigrated here and we're able to use that use those testers to perform that specific type of testing that we usually uh call race or national origin testing sometimes we categorize it as both um so un we do see discrimination against folks that English is their second language okay thank you for that and then I'm also curious if you could just talk a little bit about some of these Usual Suspects if they so uh exist like there are some folks who have multiple triple Deckers in the city of Boston are do do you have any information about some of these folks who are repeat offenders if you will um I mean I certainly couldn't name and shame no no no don't don't shame them publicly but I'm just C I guess what I'm trying to get at I think let me just be really specific of what I'm trying to get at is like when you know better you do better and if there is a way for us to have some sort of inkling of knowing who potentially are these folks that may potentially need a little bit of training or a little bit of um scaring or whatever that looks like but is there a way for us to like support to help educate folks and to be able to do followup and like what does that look like on the back end well I will say sometimes when it comes to the litigation aspect of uh housing discrimination claims sometimes it will be a term of the settlement that the settlement will be private and therefore it will never become public who was had a a claim filed against them so that might be something to consider is that something that um we want to continue doing in certain cases or is that something that allows people to kind of hide their potentially bad actions um so that's an issue I think sometimes where the settlement like they agree to settle but privately or secretly and and the reason why I wanted to bring it up in a public hearing my time is up I didn't hear that y time's up you got two questions in your time you did very well you got a second question in before your bell went off so okay sorry I'm every every hearing is different that thank you I'm I'm trying to keep everything moving so thank you um good questions um next um councelor Flynn you have the floor thank you madam chair thank you to the panel for the important work you're doing um director Terrell good to be with you um director how many staff do you have on your team at present there are nine of us and we have one last vacancy to fill what is the breakdown in terms of language that is spoken there uh there are four members of our staff that are bilingual so about half of our staff is bilingual what language do they speak Spanish any speak Anthony sandrin not to my knowledge now if a Kony speaking resident wanted to work with the our team how would they go about doing that if there's a discrimination complaint that they want to file we would call our friends in cabinet who handle language access and they would uh send us a person up to do translation which we've done on a couple of occasions that's happened before yes both on the phone or on a zoom call or in person I know there are some technical challenges when it it is done over the phone or over the zoom I guess my only point is it I would like to advocate for at least one cantony Speaking person on your staff um especially going forward um thank you very much thank you uh councelor Flynn councelor Murphy you have the floor thank you everyone for your I guess I would say sombering information that we are aware of but it's always good to hear again um I reached out to the mayor's office a couple times someone had a voucher it was touched upon a little they expire um one issue was a specific issue where they found an apartment and it was a $10 difference between the voucher amount and the landl was willing to go down to cover it but because there's so much paperwork they lost that apartment in the um you know the time that was being spent trying to adjust the voucher amount and guess what I'm getting at it reminds me of the low percentage right less than 2% of minorities and women who fill out these bids kids for work across the city because you find out it's like 27 and I'm not exaggerating pages of documents you have to fill out so have you thought about or are you already starting to kind of streamline the paperwork in the mayor's office of housing but also um having Advocates help fill out all that paperwork you probably do but knowing that on both sides too of also have heard from landlords that the am amount of paperwork they have to fill out to even take on a Section 8 voucher is a lot right so on both sides is that something that you're already doing or can we can do a better job at perhaps I can speak to that one um yeah so we we definitely recognize that the paperwork is a significant challenge a lot of you know we're we're quite regulated by the federal government so we have a lot of things that we have to ask but as I mentioned one of the things we've been working on in the last few years is moving all of our systems online to make all that processing much faster uh we also have uh a customer service team that can handle pretty much any question as it comes up um and so we have made I think great strides there are some things that we just have to do unfortunately and it is going to be a little bit slower I think than just renting in the private Market given who we're accountable to but we're happy to continue to work to improve those processes and welcome any ideas and and working with you to to do that so thank thanks for the comment thank you thank you thank you CH thank you councelor Murphy um councelor warell you have the floor uh thank you chair and thank you to the panel for being here kind of on the similar lines um um Nick um are you guys 16,000 voucher holders how many inspectors do you have um one of the all the challenges is we constantly hear from landlords and um residents um that the inspection um can be put off for weeks you know and sometime that could be you know the reason why tenants are losing Apartments yeah sorry uh Council Roy thanks so much um I don't have the exact number on hand I can certainly get get back to you my understanding is we are we do have a very robust inspections team and we are quite Nimble to to get out there um but you know we certainly could always use more funding I think to to um increase our inspection team and make sure that we can be there you know same day next day to do those inspections so I can get back to on that exact number um but it's certainly something we we would love more support um in terms of increasing our staff awesome and then just taking a look online on the budget for um the fair housing um department and you know it it did go down from fiscal year 23 um and I'm sure that you've advocated for um an increase in this in this year's budget um to make sure that we're you know getting the resources to you but just kind of I know BJ BJ has a um afh Department um you have fair housing Equity um commission and I know bpda they have an application like how how does the coordination and collaboration all work together specifically on the assessment of fair housing um we meet with we being the Commission in the monitoring committee meet with six other City agencies every 90 days our next meeting is April 29th we ask them to get their updated reports to us two weeks in advance so we can review it and prepare questions for them um so far the process I think has worked pretty well uh they've only had about eight months8 or9 months to work on this so we know that the first report will not be as robust as the second one uh a year and a half from now because they would have had more time to uh delve into the issues in particular the bpda is going through a major change which I know every member of this council is very much aware of given the debates on the planning department so we know that in the transition from the bpda to the planning department and some of the functions going from bpda to the mayor's office of housing that's going to slow down their process for a while um but uh so far so good I think folks have been very cooperative and uh we're looking forward just to continuing the work thank you um okay I'll give myself two minutes um so um one thing that we ask for in in um new developments are you know we're trying to get our 177% inclusion Redevelopment policy IDP we're getting that in Allon Brighton uh but the other thing is to try and get those 3% of vouter preference units to get us up to 20% of for um income restricted uh have you folks been I know I know we get a little bit of push back from developers but you know this is this is reliable money like what's your problem um and can anyone speak to how we're how we're addressing that and how we educating developers and uh landlords about the voucher preference program or if it's if it's if it's if it's something you know you can go for it yeah no I was going to say it's a a bit of a different part of the shop than what I work on but I'm happy to come back uh get back with some answers on that uh on what we've been hearing from developers the other thing you mentioned was bureaucratic inefficiencies um I know speaking to uh councelor gel's question you know in inspections take time uh uh we have an issue with folks cting to us they're in danger of losing their apartment because they're recertification process isn't moving along or they didn't even know they had to recertify can you speak to the bureaucratic inefficiencies that might be obstacles that we need to smooth out as well yeah absolutely and I will say you know BHA has an incredible number of staff that work very very hard to move as quickly as possible um you know one thing that we've really started to do is try to centralize everything at BHA in one place you know a lot of the questions that tenants and landlords ask are very routine previously we kind of had those answered in a lot of different places and now as I mentioned we can answer everything internally we've implemented uh a a ticketing system that makes us kind of state-of-the-art like a regular Corporation in terms of answers to questions you can try it you can submit something and we'll create a ticket for you so you know there's a lot more work to do I think but we have you know make great strides and I just wanted to say councelor warell to your question we have 14 inspectors uh right now but we could definitely as I said use use more so welcome any feedback though and we definitely are you know continuing to improve it really do want to make it a a really amazing experience for landlords and tenants it should not be the reason that landlords you know don't want to participate in the program and we're willing to do anything we can to make that happen very good thank you um I'm going take a refocus and just swing over to any public testimony I know that Miss Ashley Grant who is from uh the director fair housing uh enforcement and housing discrimination testing program is uh it going to testify remotely so if she or anyone else is um available um and then anyone anyone in the in the hall Ashley here we go good morning Ashley uh welcome you have the floor good morning thank you so much for having me um and thank you to uh to the council for organizing this such an important hearing on this topic my name is Ashley Grant and I'm the director of fair housing enforcement with the housing discrimination testing program at suffk Law School the housing discrimination testing program together with the accelerator Practice Clinic at suffk receives complaints from victims of housing discrimination all over the Greater Boston area through our testing program we're able to obtain evidence uh additional evidence to support individuals claims of discrimination and we've done that for the city of Boston for mcad for HUD and for our own clients we can then provide free legal representation to victims of housing discrimination and we bring those cases before the mcad before the Commission in housing court and in Superior Court you had the opportunity to hear from my colleague Kelly about what uh fair housing testing shows in terms of the rates of discrimination against voucher holders in Boston and you heard from Miss Miss Haywood at the beginning of this hearing who so powerfully Illustrated how this discrimination impacted her family's life I want to describe a little bit more about what our clients actually face when they're attempting to rent housing apartments here using their voucher so discrimination based on receipt of a housing subsidy accounts for the largest percentage of our cases at hdtp and that's due in part to the way that voucher discrimination can intersect with so many other protected classes such as race disability familial status and voucher discrimination can also happen not just when an individual is initially trying to rent but may also happen when their apartment for example fails a Section 8 inspection and the landlord doesn't want to make the necessary repairs or when an individ ual has a child which triggers the voucher requirement that the landlord provide the Housing Authority with a lead certificate many families find themselves facing eviction due to their landlord's refusal to comply with the program requirements of their voucher of course as Telly described voucher discrimination most frequently happens when an individual is trying to find an apartment so when someone receives a voucher they generally have between 60 and 120 days to use it before it expires we are constantly Conta conted by individuals who are at immediate risk of losing their voucher because they can't find a place within the time before their voucher expires and as Kelly explained just to view 10 Apartments a voucher holder has to contact about 50 units that's not even accounting for additional factors that might affect someone's search like having a disability or having a young child so our clients often describe feeling hopeless worried that they're never going to be able to find a place that will take their voucher one of our recent clients was the mother of an adult son with a severe disability um who is being evicted because the building was being sold and after dozens of times of being ghosted and multiple instances of voucher discrimination including being blatantly told that the landlord wouldn't accept Section 8 the client's voucher expired and she still had nowhere to live and was being evicted her request for more time from the Housing Authority was denied luckily we were able to appeal that decision and compile the client search records to show the Housing Authority that the client had contacted 80 Apartments is part of her diligent Housing search so she got her voucher back and we were able to file a complaint again on her behalf at the mass commission against discrimination and after a year of searching she finally found an accessible apartment to use with her voucher so our intervention is often crucial in preventing voucher holders from losing their voucher when they're unable to find one once we file a discrimination complaint on behalf of a client it can stop the clock on the voucher search time to prevent them from losing their voucher and we can also assist tenants with disabilities in obtaining reasonable accommodations to extend their voucher search time when their disability has interfered with their ability to find housing our enforcement also helps prevent future housing discrimination by letting landlords know discrimination will no longer be tolerated and there are consequences just in the past year HTTP and the accelerator Practice Clinic have obtained over 70,000 in Damages for victims of discrimination as part of those settlements we also obtain relief in the public interest requiring housing providers and real estate agents to undergo trainings change their policies and engage in affirmative advertising to welcome voucher holders in the in the future that happened in a case that just settled last month that we did jointly with the Attorney General's office in Superior Court where the landlord agreed to pay $225,000 to our client who is denied because of their voucher and agreed to attend a fair housing training and develop new anti-discrimination and fair housing policies to be approved by the AG's office we've also gotten relief in other cases that will help protect future voucher holders such as requiring that a property management company stop charging voucher holders a holding deposit before their application is improved this is another really common unlawful tactic used by property managers that has a profound effect on individuals using a housing subsidy who may be required to pay more for a holding deposit than they would be to required to pay for a first month's rent using their voucher when they don't have the ability to pay the deposit they're simply unable to access that unit even though a holding deposit is illegal under Massachusetts law HTTP has significant experience in this work and we're deeply committed to preventing housing discrimination against voucher holders in Boston and the surrounding areas we're thrilled that the city is committed to addressing this issue and we really look forward to working together with the city and with all of the folks here committed to this to ensure that voucher holders have equal access to housing in the city of Boston thank you so much thank you Miss Grant and thank you for all the great work you do um we've been uh councelor Durkin um you missed U your opportunity to ask some questions but I'll give you the floor now you have the floor two minutes and uh thank you so much and uh my team has been reviewing um the uh the hearing so thank you so much um I I know that there has there was a list um that you read from the BHA of of things that um you'd like to see um different in terms of like credit checks and other things what can we as a city council do to make sure that we're promoting um what the bha's recommendations are um yeah so I think the two things I I pointed out were really funding uh enforcement so things that Bob has talked about and others here and and suff enforcement is key unless we make it realistic that landlords and Brokers will be caught they're not going to change I think education is critical but we need to make the cost of doing that too high so funding enforcement is key and then the other uh recommendation is is really Banning broker fees as I mentioned I know that's need action at the state level but I think the city can really Advocate strongly for that if you go to other cities in the United States they don't have Brokers fees this is a really bizarre um uh feature of the Boston rental market and if you're a broker you are severely disincentivized to work with voucher holders because our families cannot afford broker fees I mean most families can barely afford them let alone low-income families so those are the two things that b would recommend well and just following up on that um New York did their best to try to B and um broker fees and obviously it got caught up in court and I haven't gotten an update on whether um whether that was seen as you know constitutional or they were had that power but um I'm just curious um I I do think we have a real role to play in the conversation and potentially even a home roll petition to that effect um in very specific housing markets in Boston Brokers are the only way to live in certain neighborhoods I think of my um neighborhood of Beacon Hill um unless you're you know working um to unless you're already you know looking for an affordable unit that is designated as an IDP unit um you essentially have to pay a broker's fee there's no other way to live in the neighborhood there's just it's like over 50% of the housing stock um and often times when you're paying that broker fee um you found the the apartment yourself no one has done any work for for you um and that's the experience of many young professionals who are trying to live and work and make it in the city and um so so I I think on multiple angles it's not just you know for voucher holders but on multiple angles I think that would be a really positive step and I thank you so much for advocating for it thank you thank you counc durken so um can we just check is there any um any anyone here for public test con Mia you're you're the runner today thank you anyone signed up is there anyone in in the chamber who has signed up for public testimony would you like to come up to the microphone and uh how much time do I have it's like five minutes um two minutes two minutes okay all right uh SEC we get your microphone working all right was it all good okay hi uh my name is Kieran hins I'm a housing counselor I work with very low income folks um so Ian I just want to start off by stating I think the real problem is with landlords I think we should ban broker's fees um or entirely put it on the shoulders of the landlords if we can't find a way to ban them um but you know as a housing counsel I'm often working with people who have vouchers uh and one of the things that I find most frustrating is just the lack of clear information from BHA like particular ularly from like finding information online getting information from leasing officers uh I had very recently a client who received a federal voucher uh she her whole family is not they're not made of United States citizens and so she did not understand why she was unable to utilize the voucher in the way that most American citizens would which is you know they pay 30% of their income toward the rent and then BHA covers the rest um and it's just been so difficult to get someone to explain anything to this person to any of my clients it's very frustrating um it's also takes a lot of time to do anything there's no clear like you know timeline on these things I recently had another client who lost a an apartment because the financial documents just weren't being processed fast enough and the landlord decided why should I wait when I can get someone else and faster um yeah I just find a lot of frustrations when working with BHA and I'm sure a lot of it just comes down to lack of funding perhaps lack of training for their various employees um and also just yeah I mean I again I do think most of this is the fault of the landlords but I can directly talk about experiences with BHA so thank you thank you for your testimony um Danielle Danielle you have the floor okay hi good afternoon um thank you counselors and uh thank you for holding this fair housing hearing and for taking this issue uh so seriously my name is Danielle summera I'm an affirmatively furthering fair housing consultant with the Boston tenant Coalition and I come here today on behalf of that organization as well as the Coalition for truly affordable Boston and as a lifelong resident of the city of Boston as well um and I just want to say you know in some important ways Boston is really leading the country envisioning and upholding buing uh fair housing we are the first city in the country to pass affirmatively furthering fair housing uh zoning rules that are uh that you heard about earlier um the affh rule requires the city to assess and address barriers to fair housing and take steps to promote integration and equal access to housing opportunities and I also want to note that Additionally the recent changes to IDP including the set aside of 3% of units held for voucher holders um are both important achievement ments uh that help Boston move forward and closer toward its goals of creating a more for fair and Equitable City for all um that being said there still is a lot of work to be done to truly meet the obligations of fair housing and I you know I'm a consultant I could talk about this for a long time but I'm going to hold to like two areas um highlighting two areas that need uh attention first uh when mayor Wu signed the executive order for affh there was a list of goals that accompanied that goal seven was the completion of a comprehensive assessment of fair housing that would include an equity audit at the bpda uh it is the only really large outstanding goal that has not been achieved and in fact it actually hasn't even been started and I would urge you to press for the assessment to be completed uh we cannot truly understand the steps we need to take to proactively undo historic barriers without understanding how we created the conditions that we're in and I would say additionally that's really important before or during this transition as we move departments around uh it makes little logical sense to do a transition and then do an assessment of how you messed up before you'll just make more work for yourself um secondly I want to encourage a more proactive approach to fair housing and private development so you heard previously how affh zoning came to be and in practice that is done through an assessment tool which is a 12-page form that lays out the way each private development will meet the Mandate uh so frequently though that assessment tool is seen as just another box or form to be ticked off and completed it's in the appendix of every form that a developer uh on these large projects uh provides um it's often seen as a tool uh that's meant to be synonymous with explaining the the number of IDP units in the project and yet we know that it is much more than that and indeed it is really a critical vehicle by which the city of Boston strives and should be utilizing um should be striving to meet its fair housing mandate uh in order to do this more effectively the city has to push for a more inclusive use of this rule that would include encouraging developers to increase the number of Si the number and size of family units a more robust use of other interventions and enhancements like alternative payment schedules for first last and deposit best practices around using Corey checks and provid IDP units at a greater variety of I of Ami levels and uh just briefly I I want to acknowledge like you know we've made progress in that way and yet the average Bostonian um really is very much under that 60% Ami level in fact a recent study showed that like a a vast majority of city of Boston employees all qualify for I uh for affordable units um that's most people and it's often misunderstood uh the levels that we're talking about it's like literally all of the teachers who work for the city it's your flight attendance it's the uh it um the janitors it's um postal carriers jobs that we understand to be good middle class jobs they're all affordable and what does that say about the market rate that we're that we're doing so I'll stop it um I could talk to any of you I'm I look I'm open to meeting with anybody and thank you for your time thank you um you've made some really good point would you like to submit your comments and in writing we'll put them into the absolutely I will do that as well thank you so much so we return to um questions councelor louisian you have the floor thank you and I want to thank everyone I want to thank public testimony I think that was um really insightful as well um I would I really do want to encourage folks to take a look at the complaint um the housing rights initiative and lawyers rights worked on because it shows you how BL the Discrimination is right that's why I'm really focusing on education because you've got to know that what or maybe they don't actually that's a problem they don't know that what they just put in writing is against the law and we need to that they put in writing and we need to make that clear and so I just wanted to elevate that and a lot of my questions to you are to direct it to R because we're talking about what's within our purview and the budget what does a fully operational and effective office of fair housing and Equity look like dollars to dollars in terms of like how we are investing in it what gets you to be able to do the work that works in partnership with everyone here there are some gaps budget wise and Staffing wise we need to seriously think about we are the only fap agency in New England that does not have a general counsel when we go to fair housing conferences and I'm leaving for tomorrow and we talk to our peers from around the country they're amazed that we do the amountain and level of work that we do without in-house counseling that would be extremely helpful to us um by making arrangements to bring on staff hopefully to sort of new positions it's a little technical the way that HR thinks about positions that haven't been used for a while uh for an intake specialist and for a director of testing we're about to bring on a consultant to help us structure what our complaint driven testing program will look like but eventually I'll need a director of testing uh to oversee train recruit deploy the testers will eventually bring in to the program structurally that's how it would work one of the recommendations when the budget office asked us to come up with scenarios one of the scenarios we suggested to the city was in fact to take all the staff that is involved in investigatory work and put it on the city budget dollar for dollar that would cost the city $386,000 if if that were to occur through some magical process if that were to occur then the positions that that money used to be spent on those dollars would be freed up and I in fact I could use the remaining dollars to expand my staff and you ask well what would I do with that those funds that are freed up I would hire at least two more investigators and I would specifically assign them to go after discrimination and sales brokerage appraisals everyone talks about the need to expand uh home ownership opportunities for people well we've got to do something about the redlining that's going on in the city of Boston that is one of the major causes that prevents that from taking place so to answer your question what a robust commission would look like that's what it would look like thank you and Madam chair do I have a moment 30 seconds yes that's guess okay soft I'll I'll just say thank you um thank you thank you Bob for that I was just want to elevate um your comments Nate Nick Nick Nick Nick on broker's fees um I think even previous Mayors U Mayor Marty Walsh looked at it what it would look like to abolish workers fees and I know that there's interest um for us to really look at what that looks like as a bear right well these upfront costs that are barriers to people in our city so want to thank you for elevating that um you know what I you can come back to me and I have another question we'll come back you know you know the way I run this so and ccor Santana you have the Flor thank you thank you madam chair um question um so the federal fer Housing Act protects against discrimination for some characteristics um and so there are some federal programs to prevent um cash should enforce against those particular forms of discrimination um but income um Source discrimination is not federally federally protected um it's only protected under city and state law so we have to ensure we protect against vure discriminations ourselves given that what are the gaps in federal programs that we have to make up for locally um for income Source discrimination in particular um and specifically for members of of the administration um following up on President Jen's question how much um investment would it take to substantially and vouer discrimination in Boston or at least make it uncommon instead of rampant um how many people do we need to hire um and are there facilities or equipment we need in addition to to people um what specifically should the city council advocate for in this upcoming budget thank you who would like to take that I know there was a lot so try to put it into the two minute um I can go ahead um I will again advocate for more testing and I know I'm harping on it but the reason I do is that um when it comes to this type of discrimination yes often voucher holders face blatant discrimination where someone just straight out says something um of course it is uh you know most straightforward when someone in writing says I'm not going to take you because you have a voucher and that does happen and that creates a more straightforward case but often it is statements but then um the person who has been discriminated against might feel well they're just going to say they didn't say that they're just going to say that they never talked to me that I'm lying um and I think that's a valid concern to have so where testing can come in is that it allows us again to do that investigation to show if there's a pattern often we test housing providers more than once so we remove the idea that it might be a fluke or an accident by testing someone two three four times and we can say we sent out testers three different times and you turned away our voucher tester all three times and and that becomes very strong evidence um we are currently HTTP is one of the four um housing uh fips who was currently being funded by uh oh forgive me they changed the acronym formerly dhcd hlc hlc yes um we did receive funding to do a h we're currently doing a testing project just related to voucher holders right now as we speak so all four of the fips are doing a conservative effort to focus on this specific issue um and it's something where more funding will always create more opportunities um testing is very time intensive it's the type of thing that can be done on a part-time basis but ideally um the preference is to have someone who is full-time a test coordinator so they can do 50 plus tests a year um you know as one person so that's you know what we'd always advocate for thank you next um councelor Weber you have the floor there you go okay thank you thank you chair um yeah I I I I agree with uh councelor Lou gen Madam president and that you I usually I think it's not always the best idea to try to educate the other side to to to key them in on how they can evade the they use that to figure out how to evade the law but here it's obviously where we have landlords who don't don't understand what the what the law says and and so I think think there's a lot of room here for help in terms of Education I I will my question is for attorney Love Actually um just in your lawsuit something I thought was interesting is also against Brokers I'm not asking specifically about the facts of the lawsuit but what H how does that work what does the law say about what a broker's responsibility is uh in in these kinds of situations yes so the law is uh worded very broadly basically it says that any person who discriminates against voucher holders in the provision of housing uh is committing a legal violation um and so um the law encompasses anyone uh who is seeking uh tenants for a rental listing for example um but that that often manifests itself mostly in Brokers doing the discriminating because in most cases the landlords are not the ones communicating directly with the voucher holders it's the brokers who are posting the listings on the websites or communicating with the the prospective tenants via text t on the phone Etc so they're the ones who are interacting directly with the people who are seeking the housing so often times they're the ones who need to know the law better than the landlords do and do you find I mean I just do you find that that's a anyone I guess can answer that the Brokers don't know what the law is I I'm I'm hesitant to say that they don't know what the law is I think they know very well what the law is it's pretty simple uh you can't discriminate against voucher holders anyone who's been in the business for any am real amount of time knows that they can't do it um and so yeah it's it's a rampant problem not just among landlords I think people tend to assume it's the landlords who are doing the discriminating but because they don't interact with the tenants very often it's most of the Brokers I just is it a defense for a broker to say well my client said to do this no absolutely not for the anyone now watching home it was a uniform uh head shaking now uh from the panel um okay thank you we'll keep coming we'll keep going and if we need to come back again uh let's see um counc Durkin thank you so much chair I wanted to dig a little more into uh the trit credit check component of um spe you know what we're talking about I um have been um I you know as a district counselor I often have like an elevated role in development conversations just you know talking with developers through the article 80 process and um being part of meetings um what can we um you know how can we before a building is built ensure that this is at the center of the conversation um and how can we make sure that um that you know the that a future building uh will will do things in the right way and how can we potentially get that incorporated into um cooperation agreements and and basically ensuring that um Developers ERS and um and future landlords will be open to to waving this because in um I've been having conversations with even affordable housing developers and a lot of them are still asking for credit checks um and have been a little floored when I ask about like would you consider waving that um as you know so just curious sort of um your perspectives and like what are our role as a city council you know what can we do as City councilors to ensure that that that's that the that we're doing the best thing who wants to take that one I can say um From bha's perspective I think BHA um you know credit scores are a lot less relevant for voucher holders in these developments um because again their their rent is backed by the federal government so the credit score isn't really a relevant metric so I think that's important to to foreground also we can work together to provide um history of rent payments you know there's a big move to say show if you paid rent that's actually a more on time that's a more effective measure of your ability to keep paying rent going forward um and so I know there's a movement towards that in in general around the country but we'd be happy to work potentially together to just show that tenants can pay the rent which is really the metric that matters most not a credit score I think what I'm really concerned about is it feels like we have a lot of these conversations in Silo and we all agree that this is not something that should continue to happen but when I am talking to people who literally develop affordable housing they are kind of like oh let's talk you know um and I think that like just putting that out there I think we need to have a serious conversation and we need to make serious recommendations coming out of the city council coming out of city government um to to say this is what we expect of people who are going to develop things with subsidy in our city thank you so much thank you councelor Jen councelor Mia you have the floor uh thank you um so I want to pick back up where I left off um CU I always say you don't know you don't know you know you you can only do better when you know better allegedly right um and so I really do appreciate my colleagues underscoring the importance of education and I think that the more we know right in terms of what your work is the more that we can inform our constituents so I'm really happy that we're having this conversation um I'm just curious if uh there's two three things that I want to uh ask here one is um if you if you happen to also collect data of the perpetrators who are um like what their race and gender maybe cuz I I think that well less gender more race I'm curious about the folks who are doing the discriminating what that looks like and I'm just curious if that exists and if so would love to hear it um and then the other question that I have and this is for BHA um and we've been dealing with a lot of constituents who are having a hard time with first last month and security there's a constituent right now who is trying to move into a place but doesn't have the money for first last and security and I was under the impression and maybe you might correct me if I'm wrong Nick that BHA helps provide some subsidies for folks who are moving in um and provide them some financial support so that they can do that if you do great and if you don't would love to hear that too um and then the other question is um in terms of Maintenance I think that there is some discrepancy and some discrimination that happens for some folks in terms of the uh ability to maintain folks who are already in housing one thing is to get that housing but then the other is is kind of like any discrimination that you can point to in terms of like the upkeep of certain um spaces and places that people are are living in not to call them slum Lords but I will say that there are some folks who have uh taken in Section 8 voucher holders and have completely disregarded them and their living conditions and I'm curious if you have any data around that who would like to take that one cut Mr Terell with regard to the race of respondents we can run a report for you and we can tell you the racial little bit about their racial background we can tell you what part of the city we're seeing discri discrimination occur I think your question was focused pretty much on Section 8 voucher holders again we don't get a lot of those cases as of yet um but at least in general in terms of the complaints we do see at the commission we could run a report for you um and try to identify that it's buried in our database some way we can try to get figure it out also to councelor Weber's earlier question which I don't think I answered completely we can run a report and give you those numbers yeah and in in that report it would also be helpful to know how many of those who are discriminating against the people in Boston how many of them actually live in Boston I and and and I know that there's some information that you can share just based on protected classified information I understand that but I think that in I'm the type of person that the more I know the the Fuller the picture is and I know kind of where some viable Solutions may be in terms of how we can get ahead of this so that's I'm also curious about the people who are discriminating whether or not they haven't even live in Boston well just so you'll know counselor once a case is resolved and finished the in most of the information in that case File is public record including the person who did it correct so then that goes then that's a little bit contradicting to the question that I asked earlier because it seemed like it wasn't public so now I'm confused so um I think I I was speaking to other forms of litigation I my understanding is it's not the city of Boston's policy to keep um cases private is that right um generally in in once the cas is closed now if the cas is ongoing and under investigation you can't share it we get those kind of requests quite often we said as long as it's being adjudicated we can't we can't share the inform once the case is closed and resolved then it's public right getting nervous because I know I'm going to get the gravel here but yeah but I I I wa from my second rounds or third round because I'm thinking about the Boston jobs residency um very similar to kind of what you're doing here and there is definitely a list of Bad actors and I know you can't publicize and shame people to act right but I think that if that is a lever that we can pull then I think people will be a little bit more mindful of how they're showing up for for folks so I just want to name that for the record and I'll wait for my turn to come back right um I don't know if I'm going to get into a can of worms here but you mentioned disposition of civil penalties uh would you like to you you threw that out there and you said oh maybe I shouldn't go there but can you let us know what are the shortcomings in in disposition of civil penalties or obstacles to executing the penalties under our ordinance we're empowered to impose oppos a civil penalty the theory behind the Civil penalty is if a person of a particular protected class has been injured there's potential for other people in the city of Boston who are members of the same protected class to also be injured so think of the Civil penalty as in a way a fine that the city of of Boston is imposing because you broke our civil rights law our ordinance and we have a graded system where if you are responded and you're found guilty um but your this speaks to the issue of repeat offenders if you come back and you're found guilty again within a certain time frame we can raise that civil penalty to a certain level and say within five years if you come back three times it it goes up again and then it hits upper limit in the Amendments we're going to be suggesting the council we want to reframe and maybe even make that that system even simpler uh to utilize we can impose the Civil penalty the question is where does the money go that's a good question a very good question and uh at one point I said to my Commissioners my first month on the job I said uh I noticed the last couple of orders that have gone out we not imposing civil penalties why we have the authority to do so and they said well we didn't think it was appropriate in that particular case I said well I think we need to start imposing civil penalties this gets to some of the enforcement issues this gets to how to get people to obey the law when they know what the law is and they're pretending not to know uh providing them a little encouragement uh to obey our our fair housing laws so one of the questions would be where where does it go now obviously I have a biased response to that I think it should go to the fair housing commission well we did the work we should then apply that money to fair housing activities uh but as it is now I think it would go directly to the treasury Department seems like it's worth the of further conversation thank you um counselor I'm going to try and make this your last um your last question so uh councelor um Santana thank you madam chair um for income Source discrimination in particular um I've wondered if U if more education for housing providers might be part of the solution um but it's my understanding that something like 92% of test subjects who experience house housing vouer discrimination and a stepic law study interacted with brokers who receive training and should know they're violating the law um and we and we certainly saw evidence um of V discrimination by trained real estate professionals who should know better in the HRI and LCR laws too um for whoever on the panel who would like to speak on it do you have thoughts on additional educational programs we should put in place for housing providers that data has proven um effective locally or elsewhere or have we mostly done what we need to do for key investment in housing provider housing provider education um and it's um rental education that might need more investment now um so we have advocated for changes to the licensure structure for Brokers um in our study the vast majority of our testers interacted with Brokers even though we randomly selected Apartments so you know as it was mentioned a little before it is the case that often the landlords are removed from the process to the point where it is the Brokers that are doing discriminatory things whether it be on their own behalf or on behalf of the housing provider the landlord um so we advocate for changes that require fair housing training so believe it or not uh licensed brokers in Massachusetts are actually not required to do specifically fair housing training they have a certain set of hours that they have to complete to become licensed um but it does not specify currently this amount of fair housing training um so we have uh advocated for changes to that structure to provide mandatory fair housing training and also for that training to be refreshed so some kind of requirement for Brokers to have to become recertified in Fair Housing um you know I personally do train real estate Professionals in my day-to-day work you know sometimes um the professionals ask us to train them for example I did a training recently for the Massachusetts Association of Realtors so I love that you know there are organizations proactively trying to train themselves but I think um where the the city and the state can come in is changing those requirements to make them more strict so that the training is guaranteed to be happening thank you um councilen do you have an a final question um no I just did want to what another thing that I wanted to highlight is that we had a a constituent who came to our office who um wasn't feeling Hur or seen by issues of discrimination that she had experienced in uh where she was living in affordable housing development here in the city of Boston and she just kept on hitting um brick walls and uh she then contacted the office of fair housing and equity and uh uh you all engaged with her and you talked to her and you created a report um even though the report wasn't enough to be able to get her to to to validate her claim I think there was a lot of value for this constituent and feeling like the government you know heard and listened to her and felt and she feels validated so I just wanted to publicly thank you and your office for that work um because I think it's important right like part of the work of government even when we can't solve or or or completely put a a bow on on an issue for constituent at least showing up and knowing that we're here as an entity is important which is why I've been stressing um education and you know the budget just came out um um and so we will be doing our due diligence to make sure that um we are funding what we care about and like you said given the the turnout that you are here uh that will help us to to to fully advocate for support for the office and I just want to again thank everyone for the work that you do I really hope that we're able to do uh the Partnerships that that we talked about that we're able to have uh investigators uh dedicated to looking at lending and appraisals um and I just want to thank everyone um everyone for for your work I think that there you know Miss Albert the you know the work that you were talking about that you're doing um for for our public houses residents it's the same that I was that I when I was talking to to Bob like so many people feel unseen and um not supported because uh of their income levels because they're black you know we something we didn't talk a lot about um is family is family discrimination so if there's a question here I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that looks like do the way that you see uh family discrimination is that is that when it comes do you see that vouchers is that when you see it most prevalent I'd love to hear a little bit about about that but I just want to thank all of you for the work that you do um and happy happy fair housing month thank you excellent anyone do you want response to anybody want anyone want to speak to the fan that was one of my concerns as well so let me just stop this thing it's ringing the the problem of family discrimination so um I mean Nick can correct me if I'm wrong but but I would say it's not really a problem in the voucher system um I think the vast majority of people who have passing Choice voucher vouchers are CH uh families with children um but the family discrimination really manifests itself in two different ways in Massachusetts first um a lot of towns um surrounding Boston especially um restricts their subsidized housing to um its age restricted so the only subsidized housing available in the town at all is for people over the age of 70 which prevents families with children from being able to get subsidized housing um and the second way that kind of what kind of towns do this where do they do this where the only affordable housing is for seniors suburbs suburbs around Boston yeah it's it's extremely prevalent so it's obviously this body is not something that can solve that problem but just to answer your question um and then the second form is um there a lot of zoning restrictions on bedroom sizes for example uh so that prevent um developers from from building apartments that have more than two bedrooms or more than three bedrooms and so families with children often need bigger apartments with more rooms families that live in are generationally need bigger apartments with more rooms so restrictions on bedroom sizes and then also restrictions on parking so if you require developers to um have a certain number of parking spaces per bedroom that prevents them from uh building uh units with more bedrooms because then they have to create more parking which costs more money uh so those are the three most obvious ways that you see discrimination against families with children but unfortunately the Fair Housing Act although uh families of children have been a protected class for a long time there's just not a lot of litigation to enforce uh the FHA and so those those kinds of restrictions are really prevalent thank you um councelor Weber this is your last round up here so we make a statement ask a question or both yeah uh well I mean I do think uh that the um the broke ER training it seems like a you know like the missing link uh maybe in this to have Brokers actually know the law and um you know be able to uh advise their clients not to you know uh disobey the law um uh I guess if anybody um has is you know we've heard that Boston is sort of at the Forefront uh of this but is is there anything going on in other cities that you would like to see here right to counsel for sure in eviction cases New York City's been rolling that out for a few years um it's been a little I did not plant this it's it's been it's taken a long time and it was rolled out slowly in various zip codes but it's really really important landlords almost always have Council uh and uh tenants almost never have Council um please make clear that we have never met before this meeting and we' have not spoken that's well I I guess yeah that I I agree with you it's a it's a great suggestion um but yeah anything else in terms of uh just the uh uh voucher discrimination or no okay well I don't know U Miss Miss Demetrius is anything else that you know you'd like to see here in Boston that I think there are lot that other cities and towns other other states are looking at particularly around appraisal testing so I'll uplift the need to really put funding because it's going to take a lot of infrastructure to be able to build out a testing program for appraisal discrimination and so as much as you do a campaign around um education and Outreach around these issues uh which I think helps when you uplift the stories of people who have been made whole in some ways um you definitely have to be primed and ready to be able to respond respond do things like testing um and one of the things we're working it with at Chapa is as we think about the Brokers and training them also thinking about the future landlords so incorporating fair housing into the firsttime home buyers classes um from a framework of not only how to not violate the law because you may become a landlord as a potential homeowner is also a potential landlord and also potentially faces other issues even after being housed right around appraisal discrimination so how to incorp it that into firsttime home buyer pieces of of the training um is one of the things we're we're working on with Chapa with some of our partners thank thank you Contra Mia you have the floor thank you chair uh so thank you all for for being here I've worked with you in different ways and and and capacities and I'm really excited to continue to Champion those issues here on the council so thank you for your work um I I just wanted to uplift that I always say that Boston is resource rich but coordination poor and this conversation really just reminds me of like how many opportunities we have to educate the public whether it be through the Boston Public Health commission our community health centers they could also be educating our constituents about what does this look like how can when you know you've been discriminated what actions to take right so I think that education is key and I think we need to start tapping into every single little budget item here in the city of Boston because everyone touches this conversation one way or another right so Bob don't worry we're just not going to we're not going to take it from one we're going to take it from all of them no but I I think that this conversation really we need to think outside the box right we just get so caught up in government just to like one size fits all and like we need to just start evolving and to really think about all of the different ways that we can help support this work and all of the different departments that that touch this conversation so I'd love to continue to dive deeper to see what that looks like and then the other piece that I want to uplift um is this whole notion around like my mom was a sectionate voucher holder right and we got really lucky um she was able to stay in one place for a long time until the landlord sold the Triple Decker that my mom had lived in and then when the new landlord came in the rents were like my mom could no longer afford to stay there even as a low-wage worker and I think that discrimination happens um to folks even people who are already housed and I think I just want to name that as something for us to consider as part of like another um it's not just trying to get in I just also think staying in your apartments once someone new has come uh to to own it and I think that that is I just want to raise that as something for us to to Monitor and Bob I see you got something to say con thank you C here do you want to respond you have the floor there we go uh just one little known fact about the Section 8 program which we at the commission um are paying a lot of attention to lately because of our concern about home ownership Section 8 vouchers can be used to buy a home it is one of the real secret aspects of the Section 8 program you can use your voucher and the sub ities that come with it for 15 years to pay your mortgage for some reason that aspect of the voucher program has been underutilized and I think we might be able to kill two birds with one stone if we uh if we think about using Section 8 vouchers to create more affordable home ownership in Boston uh that would be stable and and longlasting so I think we really need to investigate that more thoroughly Y and I and I appreciate you saying that I think think you're going to say something but I want to just say how important that piece is because you don't know what you don't know and there also have been cases in BHA and I'm going to name it that folks have moved like on but they haven't transferred that voucher to another family member and that's information that other people don't know about there's so many different ways to protect people but we have yet to find the way and to communicate that to folks and I think that Bob I really do appreciate you naming that here thank you con Mia did you have a comment just really quick to say um thank you so much Bob for your comments BHA did launch a sectionate to home ownership program in the last year our first home program which the city has funded helped fund through arpa dollars and elsewhere we've helped over 40 families purchase homes coming out of public housing and the Section 8 program so always look uh looking for more support for that program and I did just want to say Council mayia to your uh previous question we we aren't able to provide though first and last month we usually um ask the state for help with security deposit and they're able to help with that and then on um unit conditions tenants can call in complaints and 100% of complaints are inspected within a week and if it's an emergency within one day uh but welcome continuing to work to improve our processes thank you all right last but not least um I really want to thank you all for being here I think we've had a really robust conversation back and forth we've raised lots of issues we have highlighted so many hidden secrets about voucher programs and how they can be used to help with your home banging um this is a really important conversation as a chair of housing I'm committed to continue this conversation and see how we can support your work uh to decrease and maybe eliminate the Discrimination in in uh in housing so I thank you all for your participation and all the folks who joined us remotely and the folks who came in in person to testify um thank you all and um happy solar e lips day and this meeting is [Applause] adjourned [Music]