you're good to go thank you for joining the Boston zoning commission public hearing which is being held virually ensure the continued safety of the public staff members of the Boston zoning Commissioners the open meeting are requires I notify the public this meeting is being recorded please be advised that an audio and video recording of the meeting is being made at this time i' like to have the interpreters introduce themselves he good morning everyone um my name is j I'll be The canones Interpreter for this morning's meeting thank you thank you all right we're good go J that's it okay at this point I'll take a roll call as zoning Commissioners uh Jill Hatton present Michael Nichols pres uh Michael Michael D I'm not sure is with us today um if you are speak up Michael Nelson Royal Nelson David ma David you with us Drew pres Aisha Miller presentor morawa present Ric ostrich r with you here and Jay Hurley I'm here so right now I I don't have Michael deela David M and Ricardo I David is Dave is here I think we just got to get him to uh unmute himself so I um and I think Mike Nicholls just joined as well uh it looks no I got mik I got M okay got Michael might have that he had to rejoin because Dave was the one asking whether I could Channel Jeff Hampton today I'm here I'm back sorry okay well Ricard Ric yes here I'm sorry I'm late I had some tech issues no problem 9:00 am. public hearing this a hearing before the Boston Zing commission to consider a petitioner for the approval of map amendment number 776 and a petition for approval for the plan Development Area number 151 1400 Boon street map 1 Q Fenway neighborhood District a was duly advertised on February 28 2024 in the Boston Herald in a Boston's Zing commission hearing on petitions the proponer will first present their case in subject to questioning by members of the commission only we are taking support and opposition at the same time if you're willing to testify please take if you're planning to testify please take the time to verify that your computer microphone is active click the hand icon in your Zoom control panel this will signal staff you would like to speak when your hand is raised your icon will be blue if you are calling into the meeting like to testify please dial star9 or raise your hand when I call for public testimony a member of the staff will announce your name and allow you to speak you must unmute your mic microphone your webcam will not be active please give your full name any group affiliation and announce whether you support or oppose the petition each speaker will be allowed up to two minutes if necessary I'll advise you when you have 30 seconds remaining at that time please summarize your marks so the meeting can continue and others may be heard finally the proponents are all out a brief 5 to 10 minute period for rebuttal if they so desire please begin the presentation um commissioner we have councelor Durkin on the line and she's got her hand up I'm guessing that she may wish to speak on an item but also um need to speak out of order in order to get to another meeting absolutely councelor Durkin thank you so much um I'm gonna keep my video off because I'm in transit um I am here in support of 1400 Boon today the city proponent and the community have worked together to produce a a project that serves the needs of the neighborhood and an associate stands out as a developer who truly understands the needs of the Fenway their work in the neighborhood over the past 25 years has been transformative Samuel's commitment to creating inclusive and sustainable spaces is clear and that same dedication is present in the proposal before us today this proposal at 1400 Boon seeks to greatly improve the public space from its condition which is currently an uninviting environment full of curb cuts and an ex extensive amount of asphalt throughout um through a complete rebuilding um of adjacent parts of Park Drive bston and karck in a fast growing neighborhood it is all more important to provide green spaces that serve as a much needed rest bit within the bzy urban fabric this new public Green Space will be complemented by another much needed component of a healthy neighborhood a branch of the Boston Public Library with their $12 million commitment to build out the Civic space intended as a library the Fenway neighborhood will at long last receive a public institution that cultivates lifelong learning Arts culture and Community the neighborhood cannot continue to grow in a commercial and entainment uses without complimentary growth in its essential public amenities this is an incredible first step to creating a neighborhood that welcomes people of all ages to call this neighborhood home for more than just a couple years I remain heartened that the library in the Fenway reinforces many of the principles outlined in bpl's strategic plan this project will provide safe travel to and through a site via narrowing the crossing at Park drive and Boon streets expanded sidewalks reduced curb cuts and a commitment via the developer Landmark Center to provide shuttle access for three years between Star Market as currently cited and the new Star Market location finally this project includes a lot of meaningful benefits including uh the developers housing contribution to a separate development at 165 Park Drive including 48 affordable home ownership units which I supported and which provides a significant benefit to the neighborhood and City sorely in need of affordable housing for the reasons stated I urge the zba to approve this project today thank you so much thank you counil all right thank you Commissioners uh my name is Quinn valich I'm a senior project manager at the bpda and the development review team the proposal before you is for a map Amendment and PDA development plan for plan Development Area number 151 which accompanied an article 80 large project known as the 1400 Boon Street project in the Fenway neighborhood of Boston this was approved by the bpda board on February 15th 2024 propos projects for a mixed use building containing approximately 548 th000 feet of gross floor area it includes ground floor retail space and Corell lab ready space in the remainder of the building the proponents are facilitating the construction of a 5,000 foot Civic building on the project site as well which may be used as a Boston Public Library facility I now turned over to my colleague Lis from the bpda zoning compl iance team to discuss the planning context considering the review of this project before the development team begins their presentation thank you thanks Quin good morning Commissioners Mr chair my name is Ella Wise and I'm the zoning compliance reviewer assigned to this project the proposed project is located within the Fenway Triangle neighborhood Development Area zoning District oops Joanne we can see your Gmail just let you know or I can I'm having some video issues myself um I'll continue as we drop that plan and contact slide um in 2022 BPA staff initiated a public process and rezoning study to ensure the zoning in Fenway enable development appropriate for the current context and consistent with the community's current preferences thanks this process resulted in new Zoning for this location making the site eligible for plan Development Area zoning overlays as you were all involved in the most recent neighborhood specific plan for this area was adopted in 2002 there you can see land use and Urban Design guidelines um although the plan provides some relevant recommendations the context has greatly evolved since this time when planners contemplated a future without the Red Sox and Fenway Park in the current location staff review was also informed by The Neighborhood context including the adjacent Emerald necklace uh the this park adjacency also triggered review by The Parks Department per ordinance 7.41 next slide please okay uh so plan development areas are allowed in this zoning District provided that the associated proposal delivers certain public benefits including new jobs and creation of open space as this does the proposed PDA zoning overlay being considered tonight would make the proposed uses including research laboratory allowed the underlying zoning places limits on maximum building dimension for PDA overlays The Proposal being considered um is consistent with these limits the proposed project went through extensive design review in order to ensure it improves the area's public realm and multimodal Mobility options which which the counselor referred to earlier um with that thank you very much for your time this morning I'll hand it over to the development team to present the proposal thank you Ella um good morning Mr chair members of the commission my name is Peter sugari with Samuels and Associates some of you may be aware that over the last 25 years the Samuels organization has worked um in the Fenway neighborhood with the community Community with the city and various agencies on the planning and Redevelopment of the Boon Street Corridor um and we've worked closely with the community to bring forth the vision that really started more than 25 years ago about uh of creating a mixed use district and um many of us may recall that Bon Street was really dominated by parking lots fast food restaurants with drive-throughs and gas stations I'm proud uh this morning to be able to present the project that we have worked on very closely with the community and the city over the last three years and over those uh three years the project has been shaped and and modified in many ways um to to bring forth the project uh this morning I'm also uh proud that this project will allow us to bring some extraordinary and unique um public benefits and commun Community benefits some that were mentioned by by the counselor and I'll get into more details um of those um specific Community benefits so without um further Ado I'll I'll get into the presentation here so the project site is um as outlined here at the corner of Park Drive in Boon street so approximately 2.4 Acres consists of the existing Star Market which is a single story building uh two larger parking lots in a form of gas station next slide please a few photos here just to orient you again the abandoned gas station large uh paav parking lots in the single story uh Supermarket building with the loading that's at the corner of Boon and Kil Marik next slide please so here is a representation of um the um our thinking of how to create additional open space um not just for along this property but along the emerald necklace and and this this project dovetail is the open space here that creating on this project Dov tales with what started 10 years ago with the remaking of the former Sears building um now known as 401 Park where we took um what were formerly parking lots in paved areas and created open spaces and this site continues that uh design thesis of creating open space along the very important Emerald necklace and Park Drive and so when this project is completed the two projects of the old Sears building former Sears building and this project will have created over three acres or close to three acres of publicly accessible open space spanning from the Fenway t stop over to petero Street next slide please zooming out this um overall s plan gives a a representation showing how that green space fits in along the emerald necklace and um the adjacency of um the um the open space and the the Open Spaces that have been created in the emerald necklace open space and how we've oriented the building um further to the east in order to set it back as um far as possible from the Open Spaces that be created next slide please so a little bit of details of the building ground floor here again if we start along Park Drive you'll notice a Civic building which is an approximate 5,000 sqt building that has been described as uh potentially um a uh being being programmed as a branch for the Boston Public Library um along with the open space at the corner of Park Drive in Boyston Street as we move further east on the site you'll notice the building the dark orange represents the retail as um with all of the other buildings along Boyston Street very important to create a an activated ground floor so we have are providing the retail space um the lobby and then the loading areas to the south of of the um of the retail space fully enclosed it was very important that we designed the the building and the loading area to uh be segregated from the adjacent re residential uses so the loading areas are fully enclosed there is access to the parking designated with the blue dashed arrows on off Kil Marik Street there um excuse me the sidewalks uh along Park Drive in Boston Street will be completely rebuilt and that's over a th000 linear feet of um reconstruction that will be completed according to the Boston complete streets design standards next slide please I'm focusing a little bit more on pedestrian circulation in bike Lanes you'll notice the orange arrows that show all of the new pedestrian paths that will be um provided uh through the open space and along the Public Public ways Additionally the uh new protected bike Lanes will be constructed along Park Drive and Boon Street and as we notice over at The Crossings across boilson Street in Brookline a and was mentioned by The Counselor we will be rebuilding all of those Crossings to make sure that they are safe and secure for cyclists and for pedestrians next slide please getting into the design of the building so we're looking at uh rendering from at the corner of Park Drive and Boon Street standing back towards the um um towards the uh rotary and so part one of the important features of the building here was really to to um Step it as far back from the emerald necklace as possible and even further from there you'll notice these step backs of the building and these are very deep step step backs they're 25 foot deep at each um step back every other floor and they're also designed to have substantial plantings and so the way we envision this is really having the greenery climb up the um up along the western edge of this building next slide please now if we we're over on the the Eastern side of the building at the corner of kilm Marik Street and Boon Street and you'll notice the building steps down again it's an 11 story building at its tallest um and stepping down uh three levels here at the corner and again activated retail um corner at the corner and along the entire Frontage of the building next slide please in the final view here this is at the corner of Peterboro and Park Drive in the foreground you'll notice the Civic building which is meant to be uh very transparent and uh very glassy in order to be inviting and in the background you can see again the the building and how that steps back away from the um the open space the Pierce building in in the background there next slide please and a couple of renderings here of the open space it's combination of lawn areas that are meant to be flexible spaces along with lots of varied seating along the perimeters next slide please um this particular view is in front of the Civic building and it's a seating that's designed to be within a Grove of trees again to give somewhat of a an outside reading room is the way we envision this next slide so wrapping up the presentation here an overview of the benefit so we have worked with the community in the bpda and B in Project 165 Park Drive project that's proposed to be or approved to be 117 residential units and includes 48 affordable home ownership units we are providing an $18 million contribution that helps make that project possible and to help uh bring those affordable units um to fruition additionally we've been working with the CDC um who's recently purchased a building and will be creating a additional affordable housing there so we will be providing a $1.3 million contribution to help that project um move forward um all of that is in addition to the typical uh linkage that uh commercial projects would provide and the project here would provide approximately $6.8 million in linkage for housing and jobs training um we've talked about the publicly accessible open space and all of the public realm improvements that we the project will bring forth uh Additionally the Civic building we're committing $12 million for the construction of the approximately 5,000 foot building which um will be programmed in um in response to the community needs which we anticipate will be a Boston Public Library branch and um again we talked about Transportation improvements we're committing $2.7 million for uh various um off-site transportation and pedestrian uh improvements so that concludes our presentation and I'm happy to respond to questions thank you Peter any uh questions or comments from the commission I had a question for Peter um had um and it it the Civic building it sounds wonderful and thank you for that rendering of it as well um I was curious though when I was reading through the materials there was a lot of talk in addition of perhaps trying to cool this area with misting stations and cooling um aspects but when I was looking at the the numbers on this a12 million cost for a 5,000 SQ foot Civic buildings at $2,400 a foot seemed high so does some of that $12 million support programming or Capital maintenance um it just seemed 2400 a foot uh for a one-story building seemed kind of high so I was curious what you were envisioning um that that would uh end up being in essence um good morning uh Jill nice to see you um um great question so the 12 million was arrived at with the um with a couple thoughts in mind one um the design of that building will is not um set um yet we envision it to be a a very transparent and glassy building which is usually a premium cost um we will be working with the city and the neighborhood on that final design um but we anticipate that um some of that may also be used for interior fit out so not necessarily ongoing programming but it's really meant to be used for the building so and and again the final design will be the subject of review with the community and the city so it's really um a group decision as to how that money gets used how far that gets to into the building design and construction okay thank you very much thank you you're welcome any other questions comments think we're ready for public testimony yep we'll get to some people got the hands up already no problem let's go to uh see no more questions or comments let's go to public testimony C yep uh and we'll we'll ask F to please announce your name affiliation and your position for the proposed project uh and the first hand up I see is Richard jordano oh good morning thank you uh Commissioners uh for the opportunity to testify my name is Richard jordano uh I'm representing Fenway Community Development Corporation um and I have to say we're speaking wholeheartedly in favor of this project uh it's quite amazing and I'll be honest you know when we first started talking to uh the Samuels group we kept CRI criticizing and arguing we want to see housing why are you building this and they convinced us a the cost to put a whole housing project there just couldn't possibly work and ultimately they delivered absolutely unprecedented Community benefits uh I don't know how many other projects in the city are doing what they're doing uh the only reason we're getting um um whole other housing project built over at65 Park Drive uh is because this project is committing the $18 million to that project which will create 48 affordable condos which we just do not have in the Fenway there's nothing affordable here so that's number one number two they're helping us uh we're able to buy a sixun rental building stuffed with college students and we're going to turn that into affordable condos and then the fact that they're getting uh the city of Boston a facility for a Boston Public Library that the community has been asking for for uh some decades now we don't have Li sorry for the enthusiasm no no problem want the Commissioners to understand 30 more seconds you got 30 more seconds this is a remarkable project and uh we just could not get the other things done without them so we're happy that the zoning has been changed uh we want to see this project built and we want to see that open space that they're creating so thank you and we hope you uh accept the project thanks thank you Richard Timothy horn good morning can you hear me y yes uh good morning my name is Timothy horn I'm the president of finway civic association a 37-year resident of finway I sat on the original iPod of the resoning process in 1998 um we've seen multiple iterations of this building that's come a long way since it was first put to us uh I would like to say that our most important is that we find finally get affordable housing and affordable home ownership chances the 48 units that are going to be built at 165 Park Drive is something we've been looking for for a quarter of a century um we're happy to see the 117 units of other affordable housing and the six units of home ownership by CDC that's awesome uh this building really is important because a it respects the Neighbors in the nebor in the area it respects the emerald necklace with due to Shadows and to its size and it actually enhances it with its Green Space respects ramler Park and keeps it open and clean From Shadows by stepping back uh and this project has limited its height and its density in order to accomplish these goals that make it U really uh not just acceptable but desirable for the neighborhood uh the library a permanent City resource is something that we've just been asking for for a long long time and Samuels Associates has finally has been able to listen to us and get something done and finally the most important thing is the open space the gas station and that was used for Red Sox game day parking you know is one of the most noxious uses on the whole street and the reason we res zone8 thank you is because we wanted to get rid of the noxious uses we had a good year we had six gas stations okay that was the primary reason for us in the parking lots and we got rid of them and today we see that gas station which was the worst offender is now a green space that makes great connections back to the neighborhood and to now our new grocery store and also enhances what was once known as the rotary and makes that a much safer place we wholeheartly support this project thank you very much thank youy uh if anyone else would like to testify please raise your hand now we've got no other hands up thank you Kathleen um this point we'll we'll uh close out this portion of the meeting we'll enter our business session questions comments motions sure I would I would jump in um I've lived in the neighborhood um for the last 14 years in the Funway and and this is um an incredibly well-considered project it's wonderful to hear the support from Richard Tim and the letter we got in of this meeting by Freddy vieley as as clearly this project has had to work hard with a developer um that knows the neighborhood well and has built a a resir of trust over many projects and many years to deliver a project that has wide uh you know public benefits along with filling in really kind of a missing tooth in in the street uh layout in this area and grid and and you know a a richly better developed site by by virtue of having this mix of ingredients there to support the neighborhood and the way it's used to today and to continue to evolve the neighborhood um as it's done for for the past 10 or 15 years um and I will defer to Drew who's got to come in as well but I'm very much in support of this project thank you Michael Dre thanks M thanks Michael thanks Jay um I was I was interested interested to see Tim here sorry here Timothy's uh comments about the uh the work that was done in 1998 um I was part of that I uh did um some before long before joining stanch I did some Consulting work on looking at the economic feasibility and the kind of density that would be needed to make transform those parking lots and u u McDonald's and all the other stuff that was there um so I'm really ha happy to see the work that Samuels and the community have done together over and Peter uh over all of these years these 20 some years um uh it's tremendous to see this transform transformation and I think this will be an excellent project Peter it was just um one question the the uh affordable housing the contribution that you're making there this is not just for this project because it isn't a housing project but this is for for lots of the work that Samuels has done in the past in in this area is that right um no it it is um directly tied to this project um and and so this project is is contributing a payment of $18 million um so that's um you know we um o over the years over the 25 years um all of the projects we've built have contributed in many ways whether onsite or many of you may remember the Fenway Community Health Center that we built um offsite contributions in addition to on-site affordable so there have been uh lots of different um ways that we've contributed over the years and and um that is correct um we many us sat through five years of resoning meetings um and and I think this is a great example today what the city the [Music] community what is happening yeah I think I think Dave Mah is is eager to second the motion I'm about to make which is a a motion in support of map Amendment application number 776 development plan for plan Development Area number 151 1400 bston street map 1q Fenway neighborhood District second you right the motion seconded any uh discussion on the motion I would just like to I would like to Echo Michael and Drews and others comments I think Samuels and Peter in particular have done what what I think is exemplary work work on this entire street it's just a transformation that uh I think is a great example to hold up on how this whole process can work in a positive way for everyone so thank you to Samuels yeah actually I would Echo that as well in terms of Samuel's approach and this is a very exciting project so thank you so much and really appreciate the added Green Space all right we'll go to roll call Jill Hatton yes Michael Nichols yes Nelson a royal yes David Mah yes Drew Le yes Aisha Miller yes madori morawa yes ricado aich yes and I vote Yes so that's 1 two 3 four five 6 S8 nine nothing congratulations good luck thank you very much everyone we apprciate support have a good day all right s you Kathleen I believe we have some internal uh thoughts yeah we are going to give um responding to some of the the questions we've had from some of you about how um you can be involved in some of the more significant zoning reform initiatives that um the agent in the city are embarking on um earlier in the process have we needed to balance that with some of the very important state laws around open meeting law um and so our sort of bringing to you um it there's this is not a business item there's no action you're being asked to take um and know that some of you may need to um leave a sort of presentation on uh the Zoning for accessory dwelling units initiative that I kicked off last week with the public president presentation uh and our goal of this is just to make sure that because this will be a major focus of zoning reform work over the coming year that we're keeping you updated on that process and providing opportunities for you to provide uh feedback ask questions um you know in your role as zoning Commissioners in an appropriate you know public forum um and so we will be recording this including it as part of the our zoning commission meeting here today uh and I'm going to turn it over to the Adu team uh who will sort of introduce themselves and and kind of walk through some of the information and then we'll have time for any comments and questions from the commission thanks hi everyone Hi hi Commissioners my name is Adriana lasso Harrier I'm a planner at the bpda and I'm joined here today by uh my colleagues will Cohen and Andrew namas we're going to like as Kathleen said walk you through um an update on this Citywide Adu Zone in that just kicked off last week um with a public our first public meeting um virtual public meeting for the community um and just we're just going to walk you through um the goals of this um zoning update initiative um as well as some of the important Milestones that we're looking forward to so as you may have seen if you watch this year's state of the city address mewu announced the goal to eliminate barriers for bostonians to build Adu Citywide as well as more support for Boston's local contractor Community who can work with homeowners to make this type of small-scale development happen and so to that end eliminating barriers to building adus will take some important cross- department collaboration and over the course of the next year the bpda the mayor's office of Housing and the Boston Home Center are going to work together to ensure that bostonians have the tools and the support that they need to build an Adu on their property if they so choose to so on the bpda side planners will work to remove zoning obstacles that impede Adu development by updating residential zoning to allow for the byright development of adus on owner occupied residential lots and this Adu zoning initiative which is the focus of this presentation will work to accomplish two essential goals goal one being to update the zoning code to align code requirements with existing building patterns um and create a zoning envelope for adus that allows them to be built without special zoning relief and goal two being the publication of an Adu guide book which will be a visual guide that helps homeowners understand how to develop an Adu on their lot and concurrently alongside this zoning update effort and the Boston Home Center will work to make it more accessible for bostonians to build adus by expanding their resources for financing and technical assistance this presentation will focus on the necessary zoning updates for allowing the buite development of adus and in later slides we'll explain the goals and the timeline more in depth but before we get to that let's just take some time to Define what adus are and how they can be used by bostonians adus are add additional units that can be built within an existing home or outside of it such as such as in a smaller detached dwelling and as you can see from the slide they come in many shapes and sizes including backyard cottages attachments to the main home or even as converted sheds or garages and adus allow homeowners to utilize their property to its fullest potential and do what's right for their fam's needs and that adus can provide extra room for growing families keeping multiple Generations close by they can provide opportunities for extra income with an on-site rental unit and they can even increase equity on a homeowner's property although adus are smaller in size than the primary home on a lot they are still dwelling units that must abide by building and Life Safety Code requirements adus must include a full kitchen and a bathroom um building code compliant egress routes access to electric and water shut off Valves and fire sprinklers for any units that increase the total number of units in the building to three or more Boston does currently have an Adu program which allows the creation of internal adus only and this program lets homeowners convert pre-existing space in their homes into adus by using only pre-existing building footprint so a lot of the time we see that homeowners will opt to build their Adu using a pre-existing unused basement or attic this program was launched in 2018 and in the six years since there have been just about 150 internal adus permitted across Boston which comes out to be about 25 adus permitted every year almost every neighborhood in the city has seen Adu development with Dorchester East Boston matapan Roxberry and Hyde Park having the most amount of uptake however Boston's current Adu program is limited and currently our City's zoning dictates that adus must be built with zero bump out extension or construction to the existing envelope of the structure which results in the addition of gross floor area and in plain language this means that homeowners can only build an Adu using pre-existing space in their homes adus that are built through new construction would most likely require special zoning approval external adus like the attached or the detached ones that are shown on this slide are effectively illegal to build on most residential lots without receiving a zoning variance and approval from the zoning Board of appeal even adus that are built using mostly pre-existing internal space but that need to add on extra floor area for livability reasons would most likely require a zoning variance and special approval so I'm now going to hand it over to will to discuss more in depth the reasons why the majority of Adu types cannot be built without a zoning variance under Boston's current code and the reasons why updating our zoning code is one of the most important steps to eliminating barriers for Adu development thank you all right thank you so much uh commissioner uh I think you all as an audience are probably more familiar than most with the fact that the residential zoning in the city of Austin is outdated and we could probably add the word complicated to the headline here um we've been doing a lot of work to look at where these non-conformities or or inconsistencies are and where they lie and um really when it comes down to it the the plainest reason as best as we can tell is the simple fact that a boss a zoning code written in 1964 to 1967 depending on exactly how you want to parse it um never had to reflect the um existing built fabric of the city that largely predates that time and so it serves the city in the way that it serves the city but um the common assumption that we see a lot of the time from members of the public or just general understanding of what zoning does is that zoning um shapes and determines the built form around around the city we live in and that just is not the case in the city of Boston what that means is the thing which so often comes up this idea of the non-conformity is not just an occasional occurrence in the city of auson relative to the zoning code but something which occurs quite frequently next slide please um so there's lots of ways to skin the cat that's a terrible metaphor I don't know why we're skinning cats but you know what I'm trying to say here and um you know we are there's many different aspects to the way that the zoning code regulates different aspects of the zoning of how things look but let's just look at three of them and if we look at sort of the easiest ones to calculate um geospatially in GIS there's a lot size um not the shape just literally square footage of the lot uh the f um calculated as the gross floor area relative to the lot size compared with what zoning require allow allows as a Max maximum as a pure number or unit count restrictions three mostly numeric things that are a little bit spatial that we can sort of apply from the zoning subd districts into each individual parcel if we look at those three rules only and then if we only look at the kinds of places where this Adu policy may make sense and just to be very clear it's basically the the residential fabric of the neighborhoods um so you can see there's a lot of stuff that on this map is gray we didn't look at um neighborhoods in landmarks districts because you know there's a whole other super set of regulations that would likely restrict adus there we're not really looking at commercial areas and we're not looking at places in the base code um at least for the purposes of pure Adu expansion adus are not really a land use we see likely happening in say the downtown for example if we only look at these neighborhood areas and in the residential areas something like 80% of residential Parcels already failed to form to at least one of these three things lot size F or unit count and so if you look at that map it's looks kind of like basically all the residential fabric of Boston already just those three things um to make matters worse and or better there's all the other things that we always hear about at the zba about this nothing dimensional appears here no front yard stuff no side yard stuff no modal setback rules no rear whatever no Frontage requirement none none of that is even being taken into account no parking requirements which as we know are often times totally misaligned with the existing built fabric uh we have a hunch that we don't have the proof of it right now on the map because that stuff is as we all know so complicated it's almost impossible to try to map systematically across the city there's a very good chance that if we if we somehow found a way to calculate all of that Citywide that 80% would be a lot more like a 100% um we know it's definitely more um as one thing which gives us sort of a finger in the wind there we know that yard violations are the most common thing at the zba so if 80% is the less common ones that says something about where the real percentage actually falls and so as we go forward into this these kind of restrictions are going to be a key because if the non-conformities exist then because you have a pre-existing non-conformity you can't do anything else yet you already need a variance much less whatever it is we need to you know legalize in by right way if we're trying to allow adus by right so that's that's really a big task it's not just about the adus it's about what's currently there to simplify what's happening and so as you know we noted before um the the simplest reason for why this happened is that the zoning code never was required to line up with what's already there it was sort of more of a at the times it was being passed a way of thinking about what maybe other things could be but here we are now where with a mostly built out City uh if 77% of what's in the city is pre-World War II much less 1964 that mismatch is very very simple you know as very simple examples here that Triple Decker you know I think it would be a generally um qualitative statement to say but if you look at that say yeah that is a Bostonian looking Triple Decker it basically violates all zoning um which is sort of the classic issue right there um and even smaller ones that are more recently built have little individual pieces that aren't exactly um following what's in a particular neighborhood sub article or subd District why does this matter I think you all have a hunch but let's just put it out clearly let's go to the next slide uh the reason is that the non-conformities make it so there's now this pre-existing set of stuff which has to be overcome just for a baseline condition Dormers not just for adus but general you know further expansion of the maintenance of pre-existing houses is already a extremely common thing we see at the zba all the time just and and you know that kind of thing we often say here when we're making BP recommendations to the zba that as you know aligned with both housing and changing City and many other kinds of neighborhood plans the idea of maintaining a diverse housing stock maintaining the ongoing viability of existing units at various scales is a key part of the housing goal not to mention whatever it is that we're talking about for adus and so that right there any one of those changes is um often you know for things like Dormers would do something like increase the F more even if the existing structure isn't otherwise changing now the relative built space to uh the lot is changing whether it's that Small Bump outs all the stuff Dormers balconies more rooms the roof living space those are all individual components which we think of as the kinds of simple pieces which likely would go into building an Adu and so fixing it is sort of uh it all has to go together and to be very clear why this is helpful Beyond just scratching the itch of making regulation better um it has a very real impact on how Housing Act gets built right it costs more if you have to go to the zba and have a refusal set and talk to a million people at the bpda all the time about how it's going to go it costs more it takes longer it uses up public resources and it means less housing gets built so it's less efficient it doesn't solve the housing crisis and it just takes a lot of time for things which you all generally I think on the whole agree is a good kind of thing for the city and as a basic metric here it takes 100 days to go from Zer to 100 um permit wise if you don't need relief and that is quintupled if you're go to if you got to get a variance from here I'm going to give it to Andrew I'll actually be presenting to case studies um so we've we've prepared three case studies of real Adu projects that um had zoning violations that had to go before the zba to get approval um these are of all three types internal addition and detached and I'm going to go through the violations pretty quickly because for some of these they have a lot of violations but this is just to get a sense of the type of violations that these projects would have if there was no zoning update done to allow them by right so the first uh project we're looking at is an internal Adu um this two family home in Hy Park converted an unused basement into an Adu and you might be asking wait I thought that this was Allowed by right well the issue here is that the homeowners needed to add a new exterior stair and that meant that this kick them out of that byright kind of Adu 1.0 allowance um this just addition of a little bit of more F and so they had all of these zoning violations that they needed to have um relieved so the pre-existing home not the Adu had many different zoning violations first um there was insufficient usable open space per dwelling unit the front yard was had um an insufficient setback as did The sidey Yards there was insufficient parking per dwelling unit as well as an insufficient lot additional lot area and the the existing home itself was excessive of f um even without thinking about the Adu so these are all zoning violations that were triggered for the pre-existing home without without you even having to think about the Adu now um thinking through some of the additional zoning violations that came into play with the proposed basement Adu um this proposed basement Adu sort of kicked up the unit allowance the unit count it turned a two family into a three family in a 2f 5000 subdistrict um and per the hide Park neighborhood code um there are no basement units that are allowed um and so this project was flagged for that as well now taking a look at the type of zoning violations that an attached Adu might encounter um this is a case study of a single family home in doorchester that constructed a two-story addition to their existing home and they used this extra living space in the addition partly to extend the living space of their existing unit and then also to create a newer smaller unit in the attached Adu they also combin their property with the adjacent empty lot it was the same owner who was doing this so the pre-existing home had one pre-existing zoning violation its rear yard was insufficient it was six to four feet kind of um varying um but then the zoning in terms of the Adu um the parking violate there was a parking location issue in terms of um the parking was not allowed in the in the front yard and they needed to um ask for a zoning variance for this as well as um this Adu again bumped up from a one family to a two family in a one of 5,000 subdistrict and now moving on to um looking at a detached Adu this Adu was actually built you can see here um Google Maps view this is a single family home in West Roxbury that converted an existing Carriage House to an Adu um as I said the project was approved by the zba and constructed soon after and again this is an existing structure that was converted into a detached U so um the pre-existing zoning violations that the home or the lot had were insufficient usable open space its front yard was insufficient as were its sidey yards there was also insufficient parking um per dwelling unit I believe in West Roxbury it's two parking space two off street parking spaces per dwelling unit um and there was an excessive um floor area r ratio when you think about the just the existing unit and then also that was bumped up further by the proposed detach Adu um the proposed detach Adu just due to the location that it had on the lot it's it is it's also a pre-existing structure of course um it was in it did not conform to the rear yard um to the rear yard requirements in the zoning code so as you're all quite aware um currently matapan is the only neighborhood that has had its zoning right size to allow for all types of adus and this new residential zoning which was drafted through the recent plan matapan process and approved by you all on the zoning Commission in January of 2024 delivers clearer land use regulations that more accurately reflect matap Pan's neighborhood character and this new zoning accomplishes the following it reduces non-conformity by at least half in the neighbor neighborhood if not fully eliminating it for certain dimensional requirements secondly it supports the existing character of the neighborhood via the allowance of more types of renovations to existing homes and the development of new contextual housing on vacant lots and thirdly it allows the bught development of internal attached and detached adus and in fact on 77% of residential lots now um they have the zoning envelope to allow for a detached Studio size 600t Adu and so this type of process um that the the Planning and Zoning team performed in matapan is sort of kind of guiding our way in terms of the Citywide Adu zoning initiative so with that I'm going to pass it to Andrew to more in depth talk about the zoning initiative itself and some of our key Milestones than Adriana thank you commissioner um so as Audriana stated uh we will will really be um in many ways building off of the process started in mapen looking at how the Adu program can be expanded Citywide um and how the the team has uh stated we'll be really looking at as part of this how we can right size residential zoning um both to make it easier for um you know like to to make it match our existing building fabric um as well as make it easier for Resident resident projects to um kind of uh um uh you know uh take the the initiative to create um adus as of right as well um part of this too will be to create clear standards of uh what can and cannot be built um and that's both through the uh public process as well as through um the drafting of a new text Amendment um and then ultimately uh allow adus to be built on most residential lots without special approval next slide please um so I'll quickly take you through um the process the initial analysis process that we'll be using to um get really towards uh you know finding the the appropriate building envelope both in terms of matching um our existing build building fabric but also what we want to see as you know the appropriate envelope that would allow for adus to to fit within that um so first we'll really be looking at um different lot patterns throughout the city taking into consideration things like lot width lot depth lot area as well as um uh lot coverage of a building on the lot um getting a better sense of also where a lot of these non-conformities are coming from um especially when it comes to uh things like open space and yard space um and by looking at these things we'll also begin by grouping these uh uh different metrics into um various lot types or typologies um that we can use to test various scenarios and building envelope restrictions next slide alongside this we'll also be looking at the buildings on these types of lots um and getting a better sense of the different building typologies throughout the city that I think we're all very aware of but have various um consequences when it it comes to um building footprint and building width and building size or roof type um so whether it's a row home or a Triple Decker um we'll be looking at uh how much does the the building cover on the lot um what are the typical yard Dimensions associated with that building um and creating alongside those lot typologies different residential building typologies that are associated with them next slide so ultimately where where this gets us is getting a better sense of um you know existing patterns with within the city the relationship between um different lot sizes and different building types um and also a baseline for looking at and and testing different building building envelopes different regulations um to ensure that they uh might better align with the existing building Fabric and ultimately what are the building envelopes that we want we might want to use to allow for Adu additional Adu development um so this process will really uh involve uh test fitting different scenarios um trying to determine where we uh how we want to see adus fit um as well as um the scenarios where we might not want to permit adus um so alongside this entire process as well um we'll be developing as Adana mentioned an illustrated Adu guide book um and the guide book itself is really to help homeowners um as well as designers and contractors um how to understand the zoning that we're working through um as well as the building guidelines and overall code um to help them develop Adu adus on their lot um the goal here is to publish the guide book itself in September um so this will really run in parallel to a lot of our analysis in terms of test fitting um and looking at different um uh lot type scenarios that we might want to illustrate for the public um the book it's the guide book itself will also include the new zoning regulations as well as an overview of some of the key building and fire code regulations that that come into play as well um and we do want to make this really a public facing document that's uh accessible easy to read um and works in tandem with um the the zoning code um as a tool to enable Adu development um so uh as the team stated this this will be a year-long process um which will involve both um you know a ongoing and rigorous um uh public engagement process as alongside um an informing uh the drafting of a zoning text Amendment um right now we're in this initial phase of really analysis looking at building and lot types um which will then inform um some of these draft zoning recommendations that um will present and work with the public to gain feedback on in terms of what they want to see in terms of a building envelope um in terms of timeline itself um we're looking to release uh the draft zoning text amendment in early July um followed by a two-month uh public comment period um throughout this process will also be run running um virtual zoning uh office hours um as well as focus groups to um review both uh the draft recommendations um the guide book and the text Amendment itself um we anticipate uh uh um delivering the final draft zoning text amendment in early October um and uh bringing um the text the text Amendment to the bpda board um in December um as I stated the we we the goal here is to publish the Adu guide book in late SE September to really um come alongside the final draft of the uh zoning text Amendment and really serve as like something that's accessible and um uh a clear resource um alongside what we understand is often a um dense uh package of texts in terms of um uh the zoning legal document um so we you know throughout this process really look forward to uh you know right sizing the building aels we see as well as engaging with the public to see really try and determine what um uh that might be um as well as um how we can best and most appropriately um uh encourage and enable Adu development within that great and I know this is as a commission that reviews right pda's uh the largest scale development in the city uh that we're really sort of bringing you an initiative that reflects what the absolute small scale of sort of zoning and development in the city might look like um but because this will be a sort of major focus and ultimately a very significant text amendment that we will be hoping to advance to you want to make sure that we're keeping you updated and involved in that process Kathleen can I ask a quick question because certainly sometimes we deal with real minutia things like hours of operation and stuff so this is I think this is a lot very interesting and very uh I loved your presentation I hope we can get a copy of it because um it would be helpful to have I just had two quick questions you know as this as this is evolving uh how are you going to are you going to uh require that the homeowner be the only occupant on site or at least occupying on site if you go to two uh unit to threes and then secondly is this is this text Amendment going to be basically one text amendment that has a grid or a chart that by neighborhood you're reflecting the context of the building envelope that will described and others described you're going to have to analyze because there'll be I would assume different elements of variability in the um in in in different parts of the city so you keep the character of the of those neighborhoods in place so just kind of those two points of how is home ownership going to continue or not factor into this because you know I could see that if you can get an Adu built that's another occupiable unit but maybe you want to keep that component too so i' would say that um right now our plan is that for the first one that it would require that there it essentially that it be an accessory unit so there has to be a homeowner um occupant on the parcel it can be readed accessory to a three-unit building so just one of those units needs to be the the main unit that would be um occupied by home the homeowner on site um where it to be a small Condo building for example um I think on the latter the question of what structure this is going to take is one where like we we don't have we're we're going to let see where the analysis starts to lead us um because there are very there are commonalities and then particularly around um both the sort of scale of lots the orientation of lots um sometimes even the Triple Decker in Dorchester is different than the Triple Decker in East Boston um and how we kind of make sure that we're kind of creating a pathway that really is reflective of existing building forms is like our sort of top priority and whatever sort of text Amendment structure we think can get us there most effectively is what we're going to bring be try to bring before you but but you don't think it'll be a by neighborhood or could be it sounds it it could be right it you know the neighborhood articles I think uh um over time right they they have many things that are shared in common um and then some of what some of the challenge of that is actually then the things that aren't shared in common become uh their own sort of most important 15% sometimes that was in intentional sometimes that developed over time um as amendments were made in one article and not in another um so I think we are thinking very strategically about what are components of the code that really do need to stay in neighborhood article because they reflect something very specific about that location and what are things such as components around like for example the design of sort of parking screening and buffering uh that might be able to live in say a parking section of the code uh long term um and apply by District across the city okay okay thank you I just I hope we don't have to do like 25 different I just I don't know what's easier for the execution and implementation of course whatever is easier makes the most sense for it to be you know to put it to work um obviously there's a common goal here which is to create housing units so thank you yeah please I um I applaud this effort I think this is really great it's really really needed um in the city and and I mean it's it's crazy that we have zoning that really puts everything um out of compliance and the amount of time for for um a small whether it's a homeowner or very small developer the cost of going through that permitting process can be extraordinary and it's already it's going to be tough to do these as is because just the cost of construction uh for for uh most of these folks are is is going to be shocking and is there enough Revenue coming out of that but that's a decision that they're going to have to make and I understand that there's going to be some other Financial tools but getting this so that we really have as a right that they have the ability to do this um at the same time I say that there you know I do recognize that the adjoining properties may be impacted so what I'm watching this now is my uh uh son and his family and and Charlestown look at a parcel next to them where they bay windows facing it and it's been open and now somebody's proposing this a zba issue uh to to build there and the the height one story no problem but with multiple stories so it kind of need to think about those issues too at the same time we got to make it as of right so I I applaud what you guys are doing I think it's great thanks Dre heyse yeah yeah hi I I I well I I also I think like Joe complemented the presentation great uh it was wonderful sort of gave a you know greater insight to it certainly uh of the three examples but I think we all know there's going to be many more examples that are going to be somewhat outside of you know that uh th those three areas that you know are going to have to be looked at and reviewed and there's going to be a variety of uh conditions but I do have two questions first my first question would be um well s what Joel said if the owner has to be on site somewhere which which seems reasonable uh U condition from my perspective um and you know if so is there going to be any uh income restrictions on on any of these uh these units or is it uh or is that not part of the equation great question so um we so and one thing I will add on so our our plan is to bring this forward with an owner occupancy requirement the state is considering a bill um that uh would apply to all communities but Boston um right now that if it were to advance would preempt saying cities can and towns cannot have an owner occupancy requirement and so were the state to make a change to the regulatory framework I think we would look to align ourselves with the state policy um and so I that while it is our plan to bring this forward with the own our occupancy requirement currently we are also paying attention to state level legislation um on this um the second thing I would say on the income restrictions is that both in terms of current participants in the program and people who express interest in doing of it this many of it is based on um folks looking to provide housing for their families uh and multi-generational housing Arrangements um and once uh you are partic ipating in you know signing a housing agreement with the city there are important fair housing protections that come along with that around both you know income um and asset limitations and the advertising of those units like sort of open and broadly and so because this is an owner onsite we think it is a a pro and particularly the benefit it offers for multigenerational housing we think that that's a appropriate way to bring it forward without an income limitation um okay I and and and I understand that and I I certainly um believe and concur initially that's you know that you know this is being done for you know family and you know uh for you know family housing meeting family housing needs so I certainly understand uh that but I think uh in reality is that some point in time you know uh you know uh the property owner a is going to run out of family and he's he or she has built this uh this Adu and and they're going to go to market so and I understand that that's going to be a moving Target I just I'm just merely you know bringing bringing it up my my last qu my second question and final question uh was um what is to prevent somebody from building one of these units um that has a a full kitchen a full bath a bed or two but then has either some type of working uh office slash shop contained within it uh that it's really a commercial operation um I I I can see that I don't know if others you know see that I'm just uh that's just my belief that that some people are going to say hey why am I you know down the street spending $2,500 a month when I have I can build this in my backyard pay myself $2,500 so uh we in the the definition of an accessory dwelling unit it is limited to a dwelling unit that would allow accessory home occupation like we do in in any other uh dwelling unit of the city whether that's someone sort of working on their computer from home um teaching piano lessons in their home the determination ISD has to make is that it has you know no impacts that are different than uh were it just operating as a dwelling unit um and all of the requirements around both uses and Licensing would still apply in uh zoning districts there I I guess you know I'm I'm going to go a little farther out branch in in piano lessons or than piano lessons and go out somebody wants to make a uh you know a workshop a wood workshop and and and is building uh cabinets in his or her uh living room so-called living room uh again it's it's sort of a gray area in my opinion and I see people that would do that to evade you know having to rent at lease space outside and you know that's really a commercial activity meant to circumvent uh what what the goals of uh the ad adus are in my belief so thanks you you did a great job wonderful go baronss I'm with you there uh but you know uh um I I those are just some simple lwh hanging pieces of fruit that I see and exactly why we brought this to you guys is so that we could know what are things we need to make sure we build into the analysis so app appreciate that so uh Dave thanks for your comments and um I thank you Kathleen and the bpda team and will I enjoyed your enthusiasm as a hot fired Hot Blooded Latino um so I um Dave your comments really kind of struck home for me because um I know my parents got um into some problems because they were you know Latino family trying to start a small business and they were doing it in Rosendale and blah blah blah and wasn't Rosendale wasn't the diverse Charming Community it is today this is in the 70s and they got a lot of difficulties with the neighbors uh eventually they did move out and started their business and to make a plane and blah blah blah blah blah but it is a gray area I think and I'm speaking as a Latino who is you know I'm G to put the race card on and say you know small business people have like maybe they're maybe there's a use maybe it's like you can be a seamstress or whatever or so I think we need to have some kind of sensitivity for kind of entering populations as they try to get a piece of the American piie and so the Adu piece I think is an interesting you know kind of notion so I'm just act talking about it from a very personal perspective I think the other concerns about what happens to these properties when the homeowner dies and do they become two units and real estate and that's fine but I think the crisis frankly in terms of the challenges bpda faces I think the Adu thing is you're your your easiest one to get through to the common I think most people get it and most people will support it so you don't have a red flag in terms of the I think what I hear on the street from the city of Boston on this issue so congratulations and I'm fully supportive thank you Ricardo anybody else um Kath one um question here that was brought to mind by uh David and Ricardo's comments um so I'm a homeowner I build the Adu um I die or let's just say I sell the the property the next person is it's a it's a um Triple Decker and they're running it out uh they're not living there um do they all of a sudden become um they're they're in violation of of zoning triple let's let's even just imagine a situation where like you need to move for four years right uh and and rent it out uh the the unit would be in violation uh and would have to if um you know they went to go file at the board of appeal for a a building permit right for some other um project they're repairing the stairs right on the front uh would receive a citation for a violation uh and would have to go through the variance process um to do something called you know confirm occupancy um reflecting that use um I think um you know we're we're watching the state legislation uh right the the process of it um violation and enforcement does sort of require a a something that will generate a zoning violation so that that filing of building permit um to happen and it it does become complex right for a homeowner um over the course of their housing tenure um to uh sort of ensure that they remain in compliance um but on on the flip side I think we also hear very strongly from um many right home homeowners and community members that they feel comfortable um with this when it's limited to homeowners and and feel more nervous about uh this open um across the city and so I think that's that's something that we kind of continue to sort of Juggle and surface in terms of both where estate regulation going to be and and also where is um you know neighborhood and Community sentiment and and comfort with this so Kathleen can you just just have to see can can I just so can you just say again what what is the state considering maybe I misunderstood you the first time the state is considering that there not be a Home Ownership requirement yes the state is considering a bill that would um preamp zoning in you know all communities that are chapter 40 communities so not us uh in Boston um that would uh say that uh jurisdictions would not be allowed they uh amongst other sort of set of four uh essentially pre qualities of preemption one of them would be that uh communities would not be able to limit them to only homeowner occupants thank you thank you sorry sorry Drew I just I I thought that that's what I okay I just had one other um I guess in terms of the selling the building and everything we can't control everything and uh we'll just have to see if that becomes a problem in the fure I don't I'm not sure it will be such because to build a single Adu unit for for developers to go around saying oh I'm gonna somebody's going to build this now as a homeowner and I'm have to deal with them I'm going to buy it like the economics of this are not so great I mean if you if you're taking um you're building this out and it let's say it cost you 400 bucks a square foot to to build it and the size of the unit the rent that you can get for it I'm not sure this is for most people this is really going to pencil out one thing I think we don't want to do um is restricted to just affordable because then nobody will build anything because because the numbers aren't going to work the cdc's and others know how to make 30 unit building work and we're to get the the financing for a single unit it just isn't going to work so I would really encourage us not to do it's it's gonna just whatever the market will bear on this but and more Supply more Supply will create an ability for rents to not be so significantly hot the thesis should be that and and I think that that's you can't you can't control everything by putting affordability restrictions if you increase Supply that will help it absolutely as does student housing construction and all these other but but to that to that to that point of life happens to people and so like my daughter has a house in South Boston but they had to move for work and and even in today's work from home sometimes you have to move for work and they're renting out their house now now they may come back I I think that as you said Kathleen you would need to pull a permit to trigger a violation enforcement but is that really the intended outcome either is it a bad thing for the city to have these Adu and the homeowner who's maybe out of town because they had to move for work for a period of time why is that bad for the city that the homeowner is not there I I I think that you could look at it from another lens and and say it's still good to have that Adu there so I appreciate that and I I will say Dave one thing I also wanted to highlight is that uh the article 79 inclusionary zoning that you all passed um last year will apply to any project with you know seven or more um housing units and I I think right we we envision the adus is really falling in the space below right that it's a scale that's smaller than that but the you know as you all heard we that inclusionary zoning was really stretching to the limits of uh feasibility of what we think is possible um at that scale anything else thanks z i I know this it's a commitment of more time but we are going to try when we have a shorter agenda opportunity to take that time to bring you updates on um ongoing sort of zoning efforts and be able to get your your feedback um because it's really invaluable as the folks spend the most time with the zoning and can you send us the presentation I I would like to look through it a little bit more in depth yes yeah and we can also send you to the page for the initiative uh overall which is where we'll also um has recordings of the public meetings like where we'll be posting future public comment Etc Great awesome I I I just thought of one more question and I'm sorry to uh throw it at you um but assuming there is space is uh and maybe you said this uh and I didn't hear it was is is there a possibility of more than one Adu being on on a property oh um how we handled this in matapan and I I'm not sure this will be possible in every area um is that in in matapan um you could have up to two adus on a property but there also was it an overall dwelling unit account like restriction in the district uh so if you were a existing one family use in a in a two family District you could build both a attached and a detached Adu um because the Adu essentially let you go you could go up to three units total um with an Adu and that two family District so you can't go you can't be a two family and a in in again in the matapan example you can't be a twoam existing two family in um you know what was ENT what we designated a two family District plus an Adu and then build two adus you would have to be a a one family use and then build two adus so you could be a three in a three family District you could you could add a a fourth unit yes up to make it up that is what the Yeah and and then again in the matapan example if you were a two family use in the three family District you could add two adus if you were a three family use in a three family District you can add one Adu and again welcome like part of the work of spending the time to really dig through this over the course of the next year is um to really think about how that actually maps on to different types of lots um and different types of building structures in the city and think really seriously about both what is possible and what is desirable thank you very much kathle I know do you have the next meeting by chance I do um we are and I know Jeff has been in contact with you all um we are going to hold the next meeting on April ail uh 17th um as and then another meeting the following week on April 24th um we're doing that because we are going to be bringing before you two sort of very significant zoning amendments um one the squares and streets text Amendment um which we are planning to bring on April 17th uh and then a rewrite of article 53 which addresses East Boston which we are planning to bring on um April 24th um we've we're advertising both of those agendas this week that's in order to try and um help balance out the length of the meeting with public testimony we're going to split those to the two different meetings rather than put all the zoning amendments at one meeting um out of hopefully respect for your schedules um and then there will be a number of um pdas and IMS uh as well were they some of what was in the yes yeah okay Kathleen doing these kinds of sessions is really helpful so instead of us having to just say vote Yes or No we have a chance to ask questions and raise some issues and things like that I think it's really I think this is really important it's great and and I'm glad you found a way to do this that complies with the open meeting law yeah we the a lot of conversation with our excellent legal advice uh at the here at the bpda to make sure we could could do that that's great and it's good this is on the public record so that people can start to be educated and learn about it with us I think it's great um I hope people learn to I mean people are welcome to stay on so good for yeah I think that we can go to public meetings as well right um if you will attend you are welcome to attend public meetings you need to disclose that you are there um and part of you disclosing that you are there um is that making sure that no more than um three of you are there at any time um and then one of the challenges that is that you can't we have to avoid any deliberation um you know on an item particularly as public meetings may get to the end now saying that we as staff would welcome right like if if you want to come to public meeting let us know and we would love to like be like we have a member of the zoning commission here to like listen and hear your perspective if that's a thing that you want to do but but based on their legal advice they they were like we would really need to like it needs to be made clear and we need to then keep track of how many Commissioners are there Kleen what what category of meetings is that is that every bpda meeting um there's there's I I will I'll go ahead and get a clarification on that um I I believe if like right if if the bpda board meeting right is being convened as its own public hearing and they're the deliberating body um I believe they're primarily concerned with Public public meetings that we're hosting as an advertised meeting for the public on an item where it could create an opportunity for you to deliberate a proposal before it is put forward before you I thought it was the business of the of the of the um of our commission which is zoning so I I would think Michael if it was a zoning related uh public meeting that it would potentially fall into that category because I'm on another uh group that is subject to that and and we are very careful about making sure not more than three of us are in a room hearing a topic that has to do with our commission um or committee work so but I think we are entitled as Citizens to to so even if if there you would just have to disclose it and everyone would you know just we're being open about it but we certainly shouldn't not be able to go correct correct case in point I'm in Rosendale uh squares and streets is being unrolled in Rosendale I've been to I think maybe I disclose that I'm on the zoning commission and then I become a Target and people start attacking me so I just wanted to say that so I want to tell you just so why I have all these questions because it's like guys I am fully supportive but the natives are getting restless and so you know we want we want this to be a win and to get this done but you know we also need to sort of hear people so that's just I'm just putting it out there that's all yeah I I will um I'll try and I'll check in um around that issue particularly like uh things that are in a more nebulous space of like planning conversations and engagement in meetings um and and work to come back to you with some additional sort of feedback from the legal team great please great thank you great all right thank you very much guess I we'll adjourn on that point great thank youil next next time everybody bye