##VIDEO ID:1Gi9-4tBl70## okay we're recording welcome to the January 15th sorry a sneeze is in my head okay January 15 2025 meeting of the finance um committee uh Finance subcommittee of the Brookline school committee um my browser is frozen so I'm going to restart that but I'm going to go off of memory on the agenda I believe the first item is um the minutes from December 11th is that right or 12th something like uh December 11th that's correct December 11th 2024 um can I get a motion to approve here hear moved okay is there a second thanks Carolyn um Sarah how do you vote Yes Carolyn yes B yes thanks and I vote Yes um the next item is review sorry my whole browser crashed because that's the way things are let me see if I can restore it real quick um next next item is approval of Grant applications I believe maybe we can do gifts first if you'd like I've got it it it all pulled up Okay Google Chrome is smart enough to reopen all my windows so that's nice um so we've got two Grant applic ations um that have been or two or three actually three that have been put in front of us the first one is the fy2 Meco supplemental special education grant for 132,000 um and that's to support um or to offset some or all of the paraprofessional staff costs that are associated with Meco students I'll just read the blurb here that might be helpful for everyone who might have seen or not seen the document which is 100 two Brookline students in the Meco program received special education services in FY 24 paap professional salaries are the highest overall expense related to special education services for students in metco the district will use the 318 which is the grant code supplemental Grant funds to offset parap professional staff costs associated with Meco students um that's the first one and I'm think I have a question on that one but I don't know if other people do too um is lonus here already he's just joining he just finished up a call so he'll be here uh he's just joining right now let make a co-host so that he okay speak I'm going to ask my question and then I think he got it earlier but my question for this one was um how special education costs work with students whose home District or in particular Meco with students whose home district is outside of the district if the 132,000 represents the entire professional cost and whether um Brooklyn um bills Boston for the costs of special education that um are associated with Meco students and I don't see lonus yet and Susan I presume you didn't also you also did not have that information correct I'm I'm here Mariah oh great okay good evening everyone let me go back because I did um for this question over to Malcolm but I just want to go back and read his response there okay um but I think the short answer is the district incurs these costs which is one of the reasons why he um uh Meco was applying for the supplemental Grant so Mariah is right that the home District does cover the costs this is why we were applying for the supplemental Grant to help with the cost that is exclusively connected to a metco student like a onetoone Boston is not build uh for such costs um and so um I think Susan worked with u Tammy who's the Medco assistant to um figure out the the dollar amount there but if Boston is responsible for the cost of special education is there a reason we're not spending a bill for the entire cost to special education to Boston I think that's worth exploring I uh my understanding though uh at what point from the med from Medco headquarters was that once the student is in the district that the district is incurring those costs once once we've accepted the the student that we now bear those costs well I would appreciate if we could like determine that sort of conclusively just because these are these can be significant costs and it would be I think a a support for our district if we were um charging them back to home District well and I know just in the conversations um the superintendent group has had uh since I've been here um all of us have have shared the same concerns about uh the costs that that districts are picking up but all of us have experien increased costs as a result of additional Services once a kid is is here thank you Carolyn um I see your hand is raised um I guess I just was wondering um what the 132 represents like is that I'm guessing that's kind of like the maximum that Malcolm um believed he could apply for and what I know it's covering Paris but like how many what portion of the need just curious lonus do you have that information just based on the math it's 3 times 44 which is the PA salary if I I believe Susan but 44 standard salary yes it's three it's for three pair of professionals um that is what we're submitting for but I just want to say that my understanding is that there's only $300,000 available in this bucket of money that would then be allocated out so okay the likelihood that we would be getting 132 is pretty slim okay of the pair of professionals are existing staff and one would um be for the F fund the F frr uh one to one pair professional that's in the roster is not having a funding source so I see we were targeting there yep any sense of um when when um this comes back with a an answer I think it's a pretty quick turnaround from what Malcolm um told me okay and um once they tell us the amount then they go back and actually put the application in for for whatever that balances to whatever amount they allocate to us and I can you know it will in return let you know um what that amount is and what we so it could be that we only get 50,000 in which case you know it would be basically the cost of aay right yeah okay thank you yep Helen yeah I just wanted to sort of confirm to the best of my recollection we've never gotten reimbursed this is the first time I've seen any uh monies come in uh in this way we do get money from Medco as everybody's aware I can't remember the amount I think it was like five million this year I think um more like thought it was like three in change what was it Gabe it's closer to 2.4 yeah I was gonna say Well it had gone up to five at one point I guess but um yeah um this and I assume we can submit this as special ad uh cost for our chapter um whatever you know um to the state but that's it okay um thank you um lonus it would be great if you could um find out on this Clarity that on my question of what if any expenses are billable back to the home districts um thank you uh sorry so the next the next Grant we have here is um the there's two for social studies one is on Civics teaching and learning um for 60,000 and then there is a separate one also from social studies for genocide education grant both of these are to the state and that one is for 70,000 um and I had a question on the um the first one which was basically um some of it is sort of I'll call it curriculum renewal and projects within curriculum but there is a curriculum or a Civics action showcase I I don't think I'm getting the name quite right but something like that a showcase and I was just wondering ing um if someone from OTL could just respond on how um once the pilot is over this grant how we would be able to continue to fund this thing which seems like an an expansion of um the different efforts we're doing yeah so luckily Greg Porter our K coordinator for social studies was able to join so Greg take it away oh great oh there you are hi Greg thank you I at first I couldn't get my camera to go on but I was able to do so so thanks for thanks for having me um yeah so this cfic Action project is something that began a number of years ago um and um what we've been doing actually funded through a earlier uh Civic teaching and learning Grant was um development at each of the different schools um and the creation of some you know several different models that a teacher could sort of flexibly work into based on you know we know the schools have their different um needs and and um and student populations and what not um and so as part of a previous Grant we had some funding and we're working still with it this year on on sort of the exploration of school-based events at a little bit you know at a at a more substantial level um and some folks may have joined us at previous ones last year I saw lonus at an event at Driscoll last year um but also exploration some planning and learning around what a broader districtwide showcase would look like and that's all being funded currently by a previous Grant so what I'm writing into this grant is um some funding to actually host a Tob created uh Civic showcase and um I think one of the things that's that's true of Any Grant application is you just you don't know how much funding you're going to get um and so to your question around year-over-year funding for an event like this I think it's really just dependent on one what we sort of find from the learning process this year and what would be sort of feasible and or wanted is in terms of a Civic showcase at the district level um and then what's something that's financially sustainable because if it's not the other thing that we're really fortunate to have here in Massachusetts is a really well funded and supported Statewide showcases um the department of educa uh Elementary and secondary education partnered with a group called generation citizen to host four different dates this spring um at various locations across the state um that students um can apply to participate in so it's sort of a way I guess respectfully to sort of hedge our bets right we have school-based events we want to explore and consider the option of having a Brookline based event um while also having um a Statewide event as a as an ongoing option that isn't sort of budget dependent super thanks for that any other questions on the two social studies grants Helen I'm sorry I guess I just don't understand what is a Civic showcase oh what a what a perfectly logical question Helen thank you uh so I mean I remember taking Civics but I just never had a showcase absolutely so um at the end of 8th grade or in those last weeks and months of eth grade the students um identify in their teams uh in their cohorts uh various projects at the or topics at the local level Statewide level that that they're passionate about right we've learned about how to be sort of a Civic actor right and these different skills and so let's actually get out there and roll up our sleeves and get into something and so the students self- select a topic they develop sort of action steps on how they want to develop it and then again based on the different models that teachers have they present it and and I would say the easiest comp to consider is sort of like science fair style except you know the students are presenting their action on um composting at rle school for example right and and and so we always have had these school-based events again think sort of cafeteria uh style where kids have their trifolds set up in in a circle or whatnot um but again to just really show value and and and purpose with this project the idea of a district wide event could um could be something we want to consider and that's why we're sort of exploring it through this grant um to see if it's something that we a want and and two could could do over time got it thank you thanks thanks Greg um okay I'll make a motion to um approve the grant applications is there a second okay thanks Carolyn Sarah how do you vote Yes B how do you vote Yes Carolyn how do you vote Yes and I vote Yes as well thank you all thanks Greg and thanks Gabe for coming to talk to this um next item on the agenda is approval of gifts um and Betsy do you mind pulling that one up thank you very much so we have um six gifts um one from the Hayes PTO for school homework folders one from the Ruff and Ridley PTO for Middle School discovering Justice one from John McGee for the Puerto Rico trip for the high school one from Sarah kosa for the queer Student Union at the high school one from Sarah Egan and George Floyd for the Japan Exchange program at the high school and one from David boundy for win house in memory of Jen PK also at the high school um so thank you very much to these um donors for the generous gifts um and I will make a motion for acceptance is there a second thank you Carolyn Sarah how do you vote Yes okay Carolyn how do you vote Yes Val yes and I vote Yes as well okay the next item on our agenda we're going to jump around a little bit just to keep things going and we're going to jump to um review and approval of beep fees is Margaret here yes I see Margaret um and so um I just want to give hi nice to see you I just want to give a little bit of update on fees if you all recall a couple of meetings ago we had talked about prioritizing um Bas and beep fees for this year we were going to go into a three-year cycle Bas and beep will be this year um right now we're um we're not doing base tonight we're going to focus on beep um and so we received a memo earlier from Margaret um Eberhart who's the principal of beep and Susan given um who you all certainly know CU you're on the subcommittee but maybe people don't know you Margaret um and so uh perhaps um Susan are you going to walk us through this um and Margaret too I suppose both of you will take it away hi good good evening I guess it's the evening now hope you all have today it's very very chilly cool day in the world of beep but we did get outside so that's what's important I don't know Dr given how would you like to start Susan you're on mute sure yeah sorry about that guess you can't hear me can you um sorry uh yeah so yeah market and I um put together this information for you we try to you know focus in on participation and and the tuition component last year if you remember um when we met to set the fee the full day program was not yet up and running and so we were doing a little guesstimating on what our um what the interest would be in the full day program and how that might play out so when we approved the fee last year we approved it at um 15,500 and we wanted to revisit that um also included in the report is some information on the extended uh program at beep and we have some recommendations on that as well so I'm going to let Margaret walk you through the enrollment piece because she obviously is is much closer to that than I am and she can explain to you the various different um types of uh services that are provided through beep so I'll hand the mic over to Margaret to walk you through that sure terrific so we re we rework the chart a little bit to be a little bit more informative and to sort of include all the different facets of beep so you if you look at that we started this year and then you can go backwards right so the total enrollment if you went into the database today in Aspen is 283 students right if you look at how that breaks down in terms of the composition of the program there are 40 full IEP students so that means those are students that receive the program as a part of their individual education plan that might include students in The Rise program and in the AL in the Adaptive Learning Center the alc and it also might include students who have a diagnosis um that does not rise to the level of a um a specialized program but they receive the wraparound Services of beep and then we have some students who have an IEP they might receive just one service and they pay they pay some tuition to attend beep so those are the ones that are in the column that says IEP with tuition then there is the column that says financial aid that's the number of students attending beep through the financial aid generously offered from the district and right now we currently have 204 tuition paying seats number of children that a paying full tuition to come to beep and then at the bottom of Summer on the chart you will see um the breakdown of those students the 38 who receive financial aid how many of them receive full financial aid and how many of them receive a percentage or you know pay a certain percent as a part of their receiving financial aid and then we have the column that says Services only those are students who might go to one of our locations and receive a service such as speech or occupational therapy from one of our discipline one of our multi multi-disciplinary team members so that is the entire that's the that's the the 283 does not include those 6 16 students they're not part of that number um and you will this number the 283 will probably it might go up a bit because we are still actually enrolling students at this current time parents if if we've had a couple of kids move out and we open that we go back to the waiting list we went to the waiting list to someone who's been on the waiting list since September we had a friend move out of Ridley we offered them the spot they're going to start next week so there's a little bit of that flexibility and we really honor the fact that we have the waiting list and if we have a spot we offer it to the families and and then we've talked many times at school committee that if we have some spots open up as well for a financial aid spot someone moves out of town and we have someone who's like a rising kindergartener we prioritize offering that seat and we're offering that seat as well to a student hopefully star in another week so we continue to work on enrollment so that number might go up a bit the full IEP number will also go up we continue to evaluate and assess children throughout the year so you can see that the number is higher in some of the other years and that number will most likely go up by five or six students before the year is over and it also might go up some students come to us as peers and we determine that they are actually in need of services and they might receive the program then as part of their IEP and they stop paying tuition so sometimes that piece is a is a moving Target when we made our decision last year we had to keep the number at 193 that was the goal that had to be the number to meet the costs of the program and we've managed to keep it at over two over 200 which we're very happy about because that is better for the program and it provides a little bit of cushion in casee people move out or things happen and so that's that's generally the the the the enrollment piece when we talk about beep of course the part of beep that's mandatory in the Commonwealth or even from the federal government I suppose is to offer an inclusive program have peer models and students with identified needs clearly we have more students um than would be necessary to meet the needs of children who have IEPs because we have a very robust Early Childhood Program and those are some of the conversations that we've had as as a as you know me as the principal you as the the leaders of the school committee to think about what be will look like in the future as we have more classrooms open if we talk about the least spaces what that might look like so those are some of the conversations that Dr given's eyes have been having as well as we think about beep and its current configuration we know that you could never fit 283 students into the classroom spaces that we have at beep without paying without having the current leases that we have so thinking about all of those things as we move forward is some some of the things that we put in this information here for you to just think about that piece and those will be conversations that we needed to have as Pierce comes online as we think about what the future of beep will look like and that what the district's needs will be in terms of having leases and things like that but right now we stand at 283 I have to thank you all so much for supporting the school day program you would never know that we were in a school day um the children are amazing the educators are amazing um and it's just been a very lovely transition it's been a lot of work um the move out of Clark Road was a lot but the transition to a school day for all 283 of our students has been really wonderful and been very successful um and so I thank you very much for that support I know that it was a big a big commitment and I I think Children and Families have benefited tremendy from that tremendously from that so I don't know what other questions you might have so go ahead well what Helen can why don't we let um Susan finish the document and then you can ask your question okay go for it Susan Okay uh thank you Margaret um so as Margaret said um there are 2011 tuition paying students and um there's an there's an additional 40 students that received the financial aid um and Margaret already spoke to you about you know full versus um paying a reduced rate but we wanted to make sure that people were clear that the revenue we receive isn't for the full complement of students that are uh attending be so um the revenue that we anticipate generating this year based on the 2011 students is 3,155 so um as we were looking at okay what what might be our recommendation we thought first we would um provide you with some information about if it was a 3% increase a 5% increase increase or an 8% increase what would the tuition then become and then what would uh the estimated Revenue uh be and so that's what you see below here so as Margaret and I um talked about it we felt that um uh for one beep is not a fully um for all the reasons Margaret stated is not a self-funding program there's components of it that we need to pay for and we pay for that out of our operating budget so we're estimating next year's operating budget in terms of expenses to be uh $4,310.27 um provide some additional Support Services uh um to the students who attend the program and um and then as as Margaret mentioned we have the classroom capacity which is a a direct cost um associated with the beat program and without the leases we would not be able to support a program of this size so the leases are are approximately $760,000 and then um the other component that's kind of a little bit invisible here is uh the above the line cost so just to remind everybody that when we do the revenue split with the town we have the gross revenues that are estimated and then we have these costs that are that that are netted out of that those are called above the- line costs and included in those above the line costs are benefits and so when we took a look at um the Staffing at in beep um and those costs associated with the um the additional staff to make the program beyond what the mandatory services are the estimated cost of the benefits is about $1.2 million again uh we don't charge benefits to programs right now but if we're looking at what is the total cost so if you looked at um a program that was not a public school program and you were comparing the cost it would include all of these these costs so um we're estimating the total cost of be to be just uh about 9,500,000 in uh round numbers so we're never going to um charge enough of the um uh enough in um tuition in order to be able to pay for all the costs neither should we and so what we were looking at is what is practicable and reasonable um to increase our uh costs over the year trying to get to this um ideal of whatever expenses we have in the revolving fund we're able to cover um through the tuition and even though we're recommending a 3% um did we do 3% or 5% Margaret I think we said I think we said we would come in the middle at five and then a conversation with the school committee about yeah yeah so it would be 5% this year 5% next year and 5% the year after the idea is one we want to keep up with the cost of living and so when we have um breathing cost of employee contracts we want to make sure that we're at least maintaining um you know um an increase that would cover those costs but also trying to kind of chip away at the ideal um tuition that we want to be charging to cover all of our our revolving fund expenses so that was our thinking and the other part of it and I'm going to have Margaret speak to this because she's again closer to to this than I am and that is um you know kind of the thinking behind adding the financi a component and how the market is different today which then leads into um our recommendation to reduce the number of slots because this will also help to generate a little bit more Revenue it gets us closer to covering um the cost of the expenses um associated with uh the beep non-mandatory uh program so Margaret can you speak a little bit to that sure so thank you you've generously increased we used to have I think 20 Financial spots um that we offer to the community and now we offer 40 we usually fill around 38 we try to get to 40 sometimes 40 is a hard number to reach cuz families will offer need often need more than we can offer in terms of the length of the day locations and things like that I'm happy to say that the towns and the local Early Childhood programs have really stepped up and there's a few of them that are offering some vouchers now everbrook tce um are offering vouchers for families which is really nice because you know that vouchers are much more comprehensive all-inclusive and go beyond the child's time in An Early Childhood Program very grateful that those community members have stepped up and have started offering those to families and we even had a family leave be that was on financial aid um to take to to benefit from that and and we were sorry to see them go but we were happy for them as well because they had younger children and that was beneficial to their family so we thought it because if you because that that is if you want to have a little more Revenue um and you you you know if you decrease it by five and you multiply five by 18 or 17 whatever that is 16,000 that's an increase in revenue for the program and that will be perhaps you be able to offset some cost charged back to the grant some other I mean to the revolving fund some other costs for the program um along that way certainly something to consider because that is a generous uh thing and and not that it's not needed it's very much needed but I do think the community has started to also offer options and so I think you really rightfully offered so much because there was nothing else and now it's nice to see that some people are stepping up and offering that as well so just something to think about it would be a recommendation you would increase some Revenue that way um and then provide a little bit more of cushion for for the program and for the district as well thank you Margaret um I want to make a couple comments and then we can open up for questions one is Susan referred to um the 4 4, 315,000 that is the district costs and I just want people you didn't say this Susan but I want it to be clear to people that those are mandatory costs relating to special education Provisions so just to be clear on where why some costs are on the general fund versus the revolving fund that's the that's the split um and then you the numbers that you were talking about the 4.3 million the 3 million 50,000 which is the operating budget and then the 760,000 which is the lease and the 1 million and something yeah I saw it somewhere here 1.1 million I think yeah 1.2 million is what was what she said um for benefits those are not in this memo um so if people were looking at this memo and trying to figure out where they were in the memo you're not you don't have a big hole in the middle of your eyes they're just not in the memo so that's probably yeah yep it's very important information but it's not written down and um maybe Susan you could provide like a little bit later on an amendment to the memo so people have this all written just to document it we actually sorry we had it was we were talking about it and it's in like a little piece of the other pages that we were working on yesterday and I was going to I didn't have a chance to talk to Dr given before we came here but yes we have all that typed out and it's actually written on the on the Google Doc so sorry okay no that's okay I just think it's important it's very important yeah and Helen I'm going to turn it over to you and other people who have questions um but I also have some questions I'll hold mine for now go ahead Ellen mine's more more um explaining a few things um one thing that people should be aware of that once a child turns three any time during the year and they're on uh they're getting services from Early Childhood um from excuse me what is it called it's not early interven early intervention early intervention thank you the minute they turn three the school system is responsible and so they have to be moved out of in early intervention into one of our programs so there's a need to keep some spaces throughout the year for that so that uh we have the space for the kid once they they do turn three the other piece of history that people may or may not know we used to have Head Start here um it's probably going back maybe 15 years now um or 10 uh something like that uh and then one summer they just decided they were moving to Watertown and closing our head start so many of these children who were in um in housing uh went to the Head Start which was located within housing um once they closed the district made a decision that you know those kids who couldn't get to Watertown didn't you know parents didn't want them traveling a half hour there or more and a half hour back uh at that point we decided to provide some scholarships for kids um uh quite a bit at that time I think it was about 20 uh maybe more and it that's what the history of is of these uh scholarships that we have now um so I just wanted to a wider understanding of what happened what what the district did uh to try and uh and we did use to take vouchers uh for a while it just became so difficult in terms of the processing of it through the state it they're not they're made for private private nonprofits not for public institutions uh so there were regulations that we had to follow in order to get the vouchers kids you know the full day full year a number of issues that came up that um I'm still trying to fight for public schools getting vouchers that are different than than uh others on the advisory State advisory Council but that's sort of the history of a number of these things thank you um so I think the question in front of the committee and of course people can still ask questions is allame fr the questions as I see them there's been a recommendation here for 5% annual increase you'll see that Susan said that the that would be that middle line which is $ 3.27 one million um that would cover the cost of the um of the direct expenses meaning salary and non-salary expenses but it does not cover the cost of the um fringe benefits the insurance and other that Susan referred to the 1.05 I think you or 1.2 million that you referred to um and I think that there's a big question on you know just as we think about financial viability in general and how we um look at those costs and consider those costs and then there's a second question which is do we want to reduce the number of financial aid slots by five that is proposed here um and then the third question is and we haven't totally talked about that at all really yet but I'm going to put it on the table now although Susan hasn't talked about it in addition to the 8 to 230 program there's an extended day program you can see that the salary and benefits are also articulated for that program below um which serves 30 students the annual cost per pupil is 12,500 which is number three there and they're recommending to take that to $1,000 a month the um the fee which for next year which are you charging at 10 months of the year Margaret how many months of the year are you charging yeah we just the 10 months from September so that would be 10 10 months of the year so for a net loss of $2,500 and change per student so those are the questions in front of the committee those three I want to go back to the finance subcommittee and I want to keep track of time because I know I want to get to the statement of work next which is our next item of agenda and some people have to leave at 6 okay so um subcommittee specifically questions how do you want to how what are your feelings on those three questions um and you can take the recommendation of Staff or you cannot take the recommendation of Staff you can propose other things go ahead Sarah Margaret I have to thank you for being a part of this presentation because I think that um what we all want to hear is how this impacts what we're able to offer students and so I really appreciate the balance that you're doing of you know um when a program only benefits some of our students and not all of them there needs to be a little bit of responsibility of trying to pay for that program and at the same time it's a program that benefits everybody because students that need to be in school prior to kindergarten um that helps out the whole community so um my tendency is to follow your recommendation because I understand where it comes from with you um and Susan I I completely appreciate your time as well because the the financial side of it is so well explained here but having the two of you work as a team to explain this to us has convinced me I would like to see us be a little bit more responsible about how much we're spending on this and I like that we're uh we would be headed in that direction with your five% recommendation I agree Sarah thank you for your kind words and also I feel very strongly about both things you said that um it's a wonderful program that benefits everyone and some and everyone at the same time but it I recognize that is an expensive program um an investment nonetheless but buffered against many things in the district that need attention and appreciate that and we Su Dr given and I are working very hard to think forward and to plan forward um with your with work from you guys what that will look like thank you okay I'll go to Val and then Carolyn I'm gonna skip you Helen since you're not a voter for now go ahead Val thanks um I have I guess some concern about the extended day portion and starting out essentially in a whole um our staff costs in those out years and those out fiscal years are just going to go up and so you know to the extent we have many budget concerns right now I I do have some concern about not covering our cost okay for the extended day portion sure I could certainly you know this will be just our second year we we grew it this year and kept it very small um and uh we're still thinking of a smallish thing next year I could grow it trust me more than a 100 people have of the 300 plus people that have applied for beep for next year more like 100 plus looking for extended day right so um we have some partners that will help but um that it's a definite need which is why I trying really hard to think about that piece um but I hear what you're saying as well and so we can certainly look at that yeah well I think look at look at break points um Margaret where where we can expand without a new staff member or how how many by how many slots we can expand before we need to I can certainly do that y thank you are you at a break point now Margaret or no no we kept the program very very small this year we're not even at like we're because that I didn't I was worried about Staffing um and I still worry a bit about that you know Dr given and I talked about you know if we were in the most wonderful of positions we could hire a director that's how I came to be but we're not we're not adding any new people we're not adding any more costs right so um but we're not at a breaking point and I think we can increase um Revenue we'll have higher revenue and we can certainly move this up a bit um and I totally agree that it is not a required program and I do not want to cause any structural issues for for the district um Val do you feel the same way about that program which is looking at salary and benefits it's an apples and oranges situation compared to the primary program in which the costs we have not talked about covering benefits for the day program um yeah I I do actually yes I do okay I hear you um okay and um Carolyn thanks um this is all helpful um but I think um if what I'm hearing from a couple people is kind of a [Music] um need more information I'm curious how what we're talking about here relates to um how things how beep was framed going into the last operating override and whether what we're talking about aligns um the question in the last operating override was whether the longer school day would increase general fund if I recall correctly whether there would be a cost on the general fund and I think what we're hearing is that there is not that they that the threshold for Break Even was 193 if I'm correct Margaret and Susan that that's what we're hearing and so um so the the goal of a full day program at no additional cost has been achieved is that Susan I see your hands up so please correct my Mis misstatements yes yes yes so um thank you for that uh so the 1903 uh was was an estimate that was provided last year based on last year's numbers so I just want to be clear about that and um in order to hit 93 the tuition would have have to would have had to have been higher than the uh 15.5 so just let me just let me be clear about this in order to be able to cover the expens um that are currently being funded from the operating or the revolving fund with tuition the the tuition rate would be more like 17,800 none of our our recommendation doesn't get us there in any of these scenarios um it gets us pretty close or much closer if we reduce the number of slots so I just want to be sure that um folks understand that the break even point point on the tuition um would be 17,800 this year based on um an enrollment of 200 the break even including indirects or not including indirect not including indirects not including class capacity or uh benefits I see yeah so I just want to be clear so our our thinking was this that again if we're doing this on three-year rotations we were trying to give a recommendation um that would kind of get us as close to where we want to be at the end of this three years without um making the rat so high in one in one particular year that we um uh you know uh the families suffer um and so that that that's kind of how we were thinking about it and the same with the beep extended day program that is really that is a service to the community for sure and it's and it's awesome that we we do that but when you have a program that generates these above the line costs it means that there's less dollars available for a core programming so we're starting to think uh a lot about how do we reduce those above the line costs which is why you see in the beep extended day uh component we're adding in the benefits to kind of start to move ourselves towards being able to fund those so I just wanted to be clear about that so so that there wasn't any misunderstanding Thank you I'm gonna hold your question now go ahead Carolyn sorry car thank you Susan that's clear and thank you for explaining that aspect of bringing in the benefits um that's interesting and and helpful to know so so are you saying that that the program is costing the general fund or costing more than had been anticipated or hoped outside of the revolving fund at this time so the the good news is is and this also plays into our thinking also so beep has a uh a fund balance and a fairly generous fund balance and so we're trying to leverage that while getting ourselves in a kind of a smooth and orderly way up to break even so we're trying to balance community and family um impacts as well as um knowing what um you know what we can contribute to it so it won't cost the operating per se because we'll we'll be able to dip into some of this money to help bridge that Gap until we can get closer to it that's thank you yep um Helen do you really need to raise your hand or can we just keep going with the subcomittee for now I'm just feeling tense on time well I'd like to just put in one piece if I could super quick yeah um I think we have to be careful of being Penny wise and pound foolish here we all know that early childhood education is helps in uh preparing students for kindergarten and Beyond and that it really makes a difference uh in terms of our sped costs and other costs further down the line so I would be careful of worrying as much about the cost of this program it is part of our core program um it is something that we you know we value um uh and that would be and the one other question that I do have is did you look at the market rate around town to compare the hours and the the amounts that we want to charge we get we have we looked at we provide that chart um last year and Dr given and I spent yesterday afternoon and early evening looking at those charts she we have all that information we Tred to consolidate the information so you would have an informed decision about as it applies to like just sort of your the but we all that information and it's very comparable it's a little less than like some of them are at $22,000 for you know for a for a 10-month program or something along those lines for a private school um and this sort of Falls in for a public school setting in a in a in a um you know in a a manageable amount I'm very sensitive to that fact as as Sarah pointed out that's a conversation we've had prior and I'm also sensitive to what Carolyn and Dr given are talking about about mindfulness Helen right just being mindful about the program the size of it the capacity moving forward and those are conversations that we're going to have and I think Dr Gibbons and I have are at a good space right now thinking about those costs and how we're going to use the revolving fund to offset them and then also moving forward what that's going to look like so I yes you're right Helen and I also think we're just trying to be responsible on both ends so um because I'm a little concerned about going to five% in one year that's like8 900 for young families can be difficult it can be it can be um I I personally feel that we should be going to the 8% number last year the number I know you're going to like scoff at me Helen but you know what last year our number was based on something and we said we were going to revisit this this next year it's that's y it's been pretty clear to me that from this conversation that we've had today that um we know we're not covering even the the the base cost let alone the indirects from this and um and I think we can do this and I completely agree with you Helen that we want to make sure that people who my thinking is that P that early educ early childhood education is critical and we want to make sure that people who um can access PSB education um is is critical and you said Margaret earlier about um it's wonderful that the trust Center and um the other one everbrook are starting to offer vouchers I would say that I see in your numbers that there is not some significant dip in the number of financial aid seats so I have my personally very little interest in reducing the number of financial aid seats until we actually see a commensurate reduction in the number that we actually see taking these seats I think it's really important that for the most vulnerable students who are those who are young students who uh do not have access who are low income or low resource um background PSB needs to be providing that access where they may have much more difficulty accessing that in other programs and it's great if they go to trust or everbrook or some other place but PSB needs to be continue to be available to them so I I do think that my personal preference would be for 8% for not removing um the five paying seats until we start to see data that we are not actually needing to act so that the community doesn't need to access those seats which right now the data doesn't show that um right and and I I would um go along with the recommendation of um $1,000 a month for the extended day with like the sort of caveat that if you can look at how to staff it a little bit different we might um or not how to staff it but how to grow the program that like there could be some flexibility right on yeah on what that fee is so I guess you know we could talk about it $1,000 a month for now and then that could something we would evaluate next year to see whether you were able to grow it successfully to cover costs so so I guess my personal preference would be 8% no reduction in the seats and ,000 a month um I could live with that if you wants to at some point move that because of the two caveats that you said I think that that sounds reasonable to me okay um I'm gonna move that then and see if we can get it through um and of course this is going to come back to the full sub or the full committee for more voting so this is just the finance subcommittee's recommendation is there a second to it I will second okay um Carolyn how do you vote sorry I'm gonna vote no okay Val how do you vote Yes Sarah yes and I vote Yes um okay so Carolyn just don't threet not this will come back to full committee and we're crushed for time right now so I I I'm happy to talk more about the no later on and we can talk about that and off also at the full committee no big deal okay thank you so much everyone thank you uh Margaret for coming and thank you for working on this with you you and Susan yep of course um okay so the the next item on the agenda we're going to go to number what number is it three two where am I um the oh and I realized we skipped the position control report sorry about that um we'll come back to that the sorry I'm just getting the agenda it back do you have it up okay no you still have the other one that's it's three okay so sorry scrolling and trying to find stuff so number three is the FY 25 expenditures and provision of student services which was the discussion we started at last week's school committee meeting sorry someone was talking go ahead Caroline um sorry to interrupt I'm just getting a few different texts obviously this is all um of interest to many people I think most if not all school committee members are here right now and like the conversation we just had by having five of us was a quarum which is a school committee meeting so um I'm just i' I've gotten three texts about there's no violation of Quorum when you have other members it happens all the time and it's not uh it's a noticed meeting okay just just reporting what I a few texts I was getting thank you it's noticed on the agenda yeah um okay so the we're going to keep going so the item as I just mentioned reading the discussion of the fy2 expenditures and provision of student services um and so um I think we have two major items under this um but we can do the discussion more broadly the first item um is there was interest at last we meeting there was a request for me to forward the statement of work I that was um articulated I forwarded it to the committee during the meeting and there was some offline suggestions for some modifications so I had put together a draft Betsy do you have um that link or do you want me to pull it up on my side uh give me one minute I'll pull up right now okay and so um this is our chance to word Smith um any further hopefully quickly the um draft oh see you can't see it either that's frustrating okay I'm going to have to pull it up Betsy because I have um a whole bunch of edits to this which are not showing well it's funny you did mention that in your email and I didn't see them and I thought missing something but oh yeah it's totally missing something let me pull it up on my side so that people can see that um would it be helpful for me to read it while you're pulling that up no it'll just take me one sec yep okay so can you let me make it a little bigger for everybody is that legible for folks yes it's too bad that we weren't able to see that prior to the meeting yeah I'm sorry that we I don't know why it didn't work that's frustrating um but basically the black text that you can see this isn't track changes in I wish someone had told me well some people did but I didn't realize it was a universal problem I heard from like three people um um so see how it says um the original text is in black and then I added in review all PSB internal controls processes and procedures related to office of student services Resource Management including budget practices hiring protocols procurement contract and requisition processes Grant admin and the overall Financial um management within the department and then um the green text here is more track changes and it says questions that school committee would like answered include but not limited to question question one is one that I um rephrased from Val's question about does about whether the district is fulfilling its legal obligations under Ida Ada the rehab Rehabilitation Act and whether that's being done in a timely way and then um there's sort of a standardized question for all of these that um is like are there internal controls processes procedures that could be established or modified to optimize fulfillment of these obligations then the second one was about which Val had sent was do o oaf and OSS appropriately communicate Val had written regarding invoice approval and payment I highlighted that because I thought that that narrowed the scope and I wasn't sure Val if you wanted to only have it be about invoice approval and payment or whether it was more broadly about all of the topics that were listed in the original statement of work um I think all of them would be okay so I'll delete out that for now um um and then again what internal controls processes procedures could be established or modified to optimize communication so it's that same sort of wording from the first one um and then this was a question Stephen had drafted which was what were the key internal I and I tweaked it a little bit Stephen so it's like what were the key internal controls processes procedures practices events Etc that resulted in the delay of contract establishment po establishment and or invoice approval and payment of PSB special education service providers in both fy4 and 25 Mari can I can I respond to that now please please yes I suggest um uh shortening it okay and change from delay in uh I would say delay in uh service provision to special education uh service provision of special uh uh or Interruption of services by something like that because all that is putting the cart before the horse we we don't we can leave to the Auditors to determine what it was exactly that led to the delay or Interruption and I'm less concerned in the about what the output is specifically and and in having the Auditors determine the chain of events that led to the outcome does that make sense it does but here's my question to you imagine that there's a service provider who does who doesn't H hasn't been paid um and is providing services are you not concerned about that I am here's the difference then it wouldn't be there here's the difference the difference is that um spe the we've been hearing that special education service providers can have been paid um without some of the contractual mechanisms in place because mgl exempts um the procurement practices so if it's just the lack of money that's one thing but this is number three is assuming that the obstacle is the the mechanism right so what um what I think we should be interested in is the interruption in services not assuming that there's a specific chain of events that led to the interruption so I think we should just be investigating why the services were delayed or interrupted okay so the delay what was the other word Interruption the delay or Interruption to special education services right but it's not it's third party special education services right that's right that's right okay do does anyone else does anyone else have any thoughts on that are you okay with Steven's modification to it I kind of thought that you were going to read all the way through and then we were going to go through sorry Sor S I just had to take off early well they're each very different so um and Stephen has a hard stop I think in pretty soon so I want to all right then is it only my questions sorry I guess I do have a question about we wouldn't have any contracts with we wouldn't the questions and the issues were raised around contracts right well but just expand it to a delay or Interruption of services and so I'm wondering about like Paris who would be our employee and whether there's a delay right now in parah hiring I think that's really important to add I agree with f okay so should we say special education hiring and or like that special I should say special hiring special education well it may not be hiring either so I think I like the the idea of the broader language where it's any interruption in Services I'm very interested in understanding that myself okay what what what causes that like is there and when it is what's causing that so that we can address it I mean okay yeah any other thoughts from anyone on this one I have a sort of overall question that might um lead to another question so this is being developed this kind of goes back to maybe when we were emailed the previous draft can you just kind of Orient us to like where is this is this coming through the town's audit committee is this coming through it's it's being paid by it's being it's being requested by school committee paid by PSB and audit committee we've been talking with Paul Healey who is the chair of the audit committee who has also shared um the request with the rest of the membership of audit committee and with and working with Lincoln Heineman who's the director of Finance on the town side who is sort of the liaison with the Auditors okay so this is our document though we we are the primary clients and yep an audit committee is in partnership with us but we are the primary clients okay thank you that answers my question and I guess I I don't know if do you want to um open this discussion up to any I don't know who's on the audit committee or if any members are here but I don't know if you want to I I can't see right now because I'm sharing the membership um but yes my question of does anyone else have any comments was not just for the subcommittee and you're right I should explicitly um say that you know if there's people who are not on the subcommittee who want to bring up things I think they can at at the end of the day though this is a this is the subcommittee document that's going to be like recommended to the committee so thank you thank you y yep um so I'll just I can't see Hands raised and I can't see people so but if I'm going to keep going and then we can talk about that um or people can raise their hands and someone can let me know Mariah can I can I add one more thing can I suggest that we say delay Interruption and or non-payment of does anyone um have any concerns about that speak now or forever hold your peace I'm just kidding you can say something later but let's keep going or not of huh or not of non-payment for special education services thank you oh I thought you said or not of and I was confused for not of okay um I thought it was of I think it's of Andy is that you Andy who was saying that that wasy delay of interruption of non-payment of it should be of I'm thinking of non payment for it doesn't matter not not a big deal B nodded and she was the only other person's whose head I saw so I'm gonna um this is like pure wordsmithing let's keep going past the past the whatever we call that part of speech okay number four um are there charges allocated to OSS during FY 24 and or fy2 that would be better allocated to another unit of PSB um this is related to a question about whether um the charges are being allocated to the right place and this was something that came up about you know um a question that was raised and so again that same question if so what internal controls processes procedures could be established or modified to optimize charge allocation um and then this is a modified version of my question that I um asked last week that we didn't get an answer to which was basically does the auditor believe that the special education cost increase over the prior year meaning so for FY 24 it would bean 23 to 24 and for 25 the increase from 24 to 25 represents a broadly accurate picture of the district special education costs um if so what internal controls processes procedures could be established or modified to optimize special education funding and I gave an example of this um we received from Lisa I believe you all received a recommendation where she talked about Medicaid using the Medicaid reimbursement as a possible source of funding for the special education or special education Reserve fund I'm not endorsing that one way or the other right now I'm just trying to give an example of a potential thing which the auditor could guide us towards in terms of best financial practices for the district um and and so forth and I don't know if people like that question or not but that's how I was um trying to come at some of these questions that we have of is the like the question that I raised last week of is does this represent the new trajectory of special education costs and then what what are we doing to think about how to um support those costs Stephen go ahead so I think that's a a really critical question and I really appreciate you raising it Mariah I'm just not I'm not sure why it would be in the scope for an auditor I I thought you were right to raise it to Administration is it clear to you that Administration can't fully answer that question I actually Dr Giller is on the call right yeah he is and I think it's a question for you're right it's a question sorry go ahead well I guess I just want to ask Dr gillery can we sufficiently answer this question do we need to ask an auditor this question be because at our last school committee meeting I know Leisa wasn't there and it seemed to me a question that Lisa could possibly answer or someone she delegates could possibly answer if that's not the case then I totally agree with you Mariah that this should be in the scope but I just I don't know whether or not we can answer this question yeah and I think part of the part of the the challenge is um you know leisa's position is that um um she doesn't um believe that the costs have have wild wildly soared uh if I'm capturing that correctly um and so I think part of this this um and again you know special education costs um on districts are somewhat unique because of the makeup of the individuals within that community so um but I I do think there are are General increases across the board that we're seeing on a multitude of fronts so it would be I think it would be helpful to you know as I'm listening to the dialogue um looking back at historically have there been things that have just been mounting that uh because of the way that we've had sort of centralized accounting uh and not Central and now more uh departmental type of counting have there been things that have been hidden in the background that have been covered by other costs that have just been masked for a number of years and now with the loss of some of our um additional funds are these things now manifesting um more distinctly on our operating on our operating cost I see so so you would say that an an audit would would help faret out some of those details Dr Gill I think I think it will it will help us compartmentalize and sort of see what have been some Trends okay cuz I thought the foundational data of that movement from I think Mariah was from like 9 to 10 and a half million right in that last yeah and we'll have an update from Susan after this on which unfortunately from one school year to the next that I thought that we we we knew the foundational data show that there was a significant movement from one school year to the next so the question was why not not whether it was true well can I add on to that though Stephen I think that um and Linus just alluded to this while we saw that data at our last meeting it apparently is not universally um believed by staff that there is that that data represents an accurate accounting and that is the reason for my question four because if if there are charges um allocated to OSS that should not have been allocated to OSS and that's why we're seeing an increase that is quite a different um than story right then than special education cost increases number four is quite carefully worded because it doesn't say are there special education costs it says are their charges allocated to OSS which is a different than special education cost right and so um and so five is almost just like the like the bottom line of number four right like like is if this is really it so that they're tied together in my view okay I have to sign off I just want to say this makes sense I know I'm not part of the subcommittee thank you for doing this this to me I support it thank you denn this can he unmute himself um Betsy I don't know if he can uh I was just offered the opportunity to unmute myself thank you um uh for those of us who didn't um participate in the previous question I have have a clarifying question about this particular process which is um is this the statement of work for an already budgeted audit or is this a essentially the state an RF P for which we will get quotes and there's a longer term process is there a short answer to that question um there's a semi-short answer to that question which is um it is not budgeted it is a additional it would currently our plan was to have this as a contract addition to the powers and sullivent audit which is just wrapping up for the regular Financial process um however school committee doesn't need to do that and depending on the powers and solivan quote we can also bid but there's only three Municipal audit firms in the state Melanson and Heath is one and I can't remember the third one but um but we can bid it out if we want to but we were trying for sake of expediency and sort of um rolling it up into a the current contract um but that so the question is sort of and then so I guess sort of the followup is what's the sort of ballark of like how how long we anticipate this to take and and or cost um um I don't know that did we get an ETA from them I think they said quickly I can't remember right now Susan or Linus and the ballpark on cost um the original quote that came in was they were going to do an audit of all processes and we are winnowing the scope from there um so they haven't given us a quote for this as far as I know am I remembering right Susan and lus we haven't seen a revision we said to them please don't send a revised quote until the committee gets the chance to weigh in right yeah did you ask for winnowing because of the cost or cost and time we want to make it focused on the issues and of course if we were to find something that went beyond and we said oh we need to expand it we could but we're trying to be focused for time and cost reasons can I ask what was the cost for what they did propose for the entire thing they gave us a quote of 50 to 59,000 which is a lot so thank you and also I think it's important to note that the procedures are not different for OSS than they are for any in any other area so whatever we learn here you know if they have recommendations then uh they can be applied more broadly so I'm I'm I'm really thrilled that we're doing this I think it'll answer a lot of questions I have um and you do as well so as sooner as better um does the subcommittee feel comfortable I guess we'll take a little vote do we feel comfortable advancing this um back to the audit committee or maybe can I take a I'm going to take it down um sorry if I can figure out how to there we go stop sharing and do we have a quorum of the members right now um okay can I take just like a straw poll of do people feel like this is okay right now can I get just like a hands up or or a thumbs up or thumbs down on this one Jesse I'm calling on you too I I'm close that felt a little bit rushed to me it felt like I had okay well you can still ask more questions I am I'm close Okay um we can ask more questions though I want people to feel comfortable um I saw I think I saw thumbs up from Carolyn you me Val Helen did you have thumbs up and also Andy supposed to weigh in it's a straw pole you're not voting I just need you to yeah it's a straw poll I just need to know do we have to take this to full committee or not um basically or can we proceed back to audit committee or to the to Paul and um iall it and Lincoln Jesse and Andy are you comfortable with us going back to audit and but the thumbs up was to take it to school committee or not to take it no not to take it are you comfortable enough with it that we don't need to take it back to school committee for more discussion and vote I mean I already heard that you that you were concerned with the price and so in a in a constrainted financial environment do we need more discussion to move forward before yeah the price was for their larger scope not for this scope we don't have a price for this scope yet because we're trying to narrow the scope if we scoped it down by half and it went to 30k is that still a constraint on us that we don't have 30k to put in at this point I mean we don't have $10 to put in at this point it's like one of these things in my opinion where you can't afford to and you can't afford not to so I don't see a path forward that doesn't include this I think it's important for our our confidence in how the system works and for the Public's confidence in how the system works so that's I guess I feel like there's no there's no alternative to doing it but the uh flip side would be whatever money we spend even if it's 10,000 would have to eventually come out of something else that we were going to do in this budget cycle that we're not going to be able to do correct which you know in some ways this is an unanticipated expense we could pursue a reserve fund transfer if that's where it came down to but at this point the question is you know is PSB basically saying we're willing to pay and we have and I I personally feel we don't have a choice not to we just have to move ahead with um this examination this this review Helen is there possibly money in the audit account that could be used for this the audit committee does not have a budget and the and the audit no the audit is run out of the um finance department they have the budget but the committee itself doesn't have a budget got it the audit is budgeted you know it but I would just point out that the entire townwide budget is 60,000 so just to to give a sense of cost the the the the powers and Sullivan audit that you were referring to was already contracted correct and that's for the district no that's for the town the town overall auditing of financial statements which includes PP is I'll ask just again is there another um pathway we can take that does not include auditing PSP separately meaning we know we we know we have bills to pay and we know that there were some um processes that were were not followed or changed modified something happened not the first time and so the question is if we did if we did not audit at this point and didn't spend money that we don't have what was what is the outcome of that Val are you answering his question or asking a I'm I'm giv comment on it I I I think it's a bad outcome because I I don't think that we learn I don't think we actually know what processes or procedures were or weren't followed whether they are the correct procedures um with respect to special education which has legal mandates and I I see us being that that being really Penny wise and pound um foolish in the sense that uh if we can sort this out and actually be more efficient and provide the services are required to legally um and morally uh that it's a it's it's a win-win ultimately it's a sure it's it may be $30,000 that we don't have um but it may be a half million dollars that we don't have when we're down the road on this and can can can I ask a clarifying question please Cliff hi can I ask a question go ahead um so my question about this uh possible assignment is whether or not you're viewing this as uh a financial audit or a management audit and it sounds to me like you're looking at this from the perspective of a management audit um as a oos a strictly Financial one which is what the auditor essentially does for the town and the schools in its regular Services correct you are correct thank you yep um I also think to Val's point this is a question of and and Val alluded to this but I'll just say it this is a opportunity to manage risk Jesse you know there there is like exposure on are you know if we are are not doing things the way we are supposed to that exposes the district so we need to address that quickly and rectify it if that is the case if that is the case and certainly we've heard um some of the issues that are going on and we need to make sure that we are closing any loopholes related to um lack of compliance with um some of the uh legal mandates that um was in question one of course yeah yeah so I again you know would it be great if there was another magical source of funds or not magical real real source of funds it would be but at this point I think there is no way around it we just go through it and I also think that not only is it an you know a confidence issue but I think internally it would go a long way for people to have a common understanding of what requirements are in all areas and it's clear to me that that isn't so now um and so I think it serves many purposes and I think we all have uh the same hopes you know here um and intentions and I think uh that a lot of good can come from this and my only regret is that this didn't happen before I arrived because um I think perhaps we might be in a different place today if it had thank you Susan um so I would have liked to have time to do and I see that you're sort of wrapping up because it's 6:20 now is I would like to I wasn't gonna wrap up I was gonna say if you could stay longer because we have critical stuff to finish today but keep going I would like to look back at the language again for this idea of Nar ing the scope and also now that we've kind of voiced that this is a management audit as opposed to a financial audit I'd like to look through and make sure that each question we ask is indeed measurable I think that um that we're we're rushing a bit and we need to make sure that we we have our questions that guide us to the information that we want um one example that I would give if you want to put it back up and number two when we ask um if the two offices communicated appropriately I'm not really too I'm not really sure what you could get as an answer to that but then the rest of number two does go on to ask a more specific question so I wondered if maybe we wanted to frame each of these in ways where we know the data that we could get in order to answer it do you see that first question um do oaf and um OSS appropriately communicate as something where you could anticipate the type of answer that you would um expect the audits come back with I feel comfortable with it but um can I just comment I do too I've been involved in I don't know how many audits um of very large nonprofit organizations and Auditors all the time have questions like this and um bring back information that combines both qualitative and quantitative um measures and information that's super helpful okay okay thank you yep um I've seen Lee put up his hand and take it down a couple times and he's on the audit committee and I if Lee you want to talk I don't is he still here there's a long list of participants um Lee Lee is not a participant so I don't know if he's not able to bets he perhaps I did just oh there you are Lee okay go ahead Lee you're on mute now but go ahead I think and take yourself off is it can you hear me yes go ahead I I am on the audit committee I'm the advisory committee representative I've been on the audit committee for a number of years um I'm not aware we certainly to my best of my knowledge we have not had any meeting of the audit committee addressing this issue I know there's been some correspondence with Paul Healey but I there's been no meeting as far as I know um powers and Sullivan does not do does not do management Audits and I agree with Cliff I mean I think that the issues that you that have been raised here require a management audit not a financial audit I mean Financial audits are going to look for you know sloppiness in reporting possible fraud things like that I don't think that's the issue here um the issue is management or is a a management problem um and you know this is something I tried to address when I introduced article 37 a couple years ago which did not pass um town meeting but um I I've I've been in contact with Paul hopefully there will be an order committee meeting soon and we be able to address this but expanding expanding powers and solance um scope uh uh I don't think is the right choice right now that's that's my personal opinion I'm not speaking for the a committee thank you Lee [Music] um Okay so we've had a little bit more questions I need another uh we got I think a little bit taken aside by Jesse's question which is okay Jess and Andy do we have can you just give me a thumbs up or thumbs down with proceeding Asis by proceeding you meant you said take it to the audit committee no what I'm saying I mean it would it would be to go back to the auditor and Paul Healey to have them provide it to the uh for a quote for a quote yes as opposed to going back to full school committee for more discussion okay with that I'm on board okay thank you so I think we have a clear um Helen go ahead you're on mute I'm sorry are they this audit auditor capable of doing this Susan do you want to comment on that or Linus I um so that you can talk about it yeah I'm not sure who these auditor the Auditors are I am familiar with powers and solivan and they do uh signifant they have always done a significant amount of the municipal audits in the state including um Regional Schools and collaboratives which are specifically school um schools and so uh depending on who the auditor is they could very well be uh the best choice here even even when an auditor comes in they do audit your management practices and internal controls and some of the issues that have been raised and are being questioned are in fact that and so I think it's important that they um are able to provide a a you know a management letter which is always a part of an audit um with recommendations around that but it has to be somebody that's familiar with schools or it's never going to get to the heart of some of the questions that are being asked so if it's the right auditor who's very familiar with schools and school law um then it could be uh very helpful and there's also in a lot of these large firms different divisions and people that they can include on their team that is auditing that would have different um types of expertise so I think it it really does come down to who who are the members of the team and I have talked to um uh Lincoln about that it's important that we get people that understand school they understand Municipal Finance um and uh they have uh the proper staff in order to be able to answer the questions and I think by sending this scope of work out we're signaling to them the questions that we in fact want explored and the other thing I'll say is that this this is not necessarily um to to Cliffs point and audit it um it's a review you know and audits is a very specific thing and I think that's what Lee's referring to we're not pre creating audited financial statements which is a whole different matter right um it's it's a review of our financial practices um and um and I think that that that's a little bit different so that's what I would share on that thank you um I would just also note that powers and Sullivan has been acquired and rolled up into a larger firm so that might also um change what uh even if there's some sort of historical knowledge Lee on what powers and Sven does that may have evolved more recently um we're g to move ahead into Susan I don't know if you disappeared for good or if you just disappeared for a moment um but we're there you are you're on mute we're going to move to the second part of that continuing discussion I I just want to flag for the subcommittee there's two other topics that we want to discuss tonight and one is um the principal or the principal non um the non- allign compensation for principles which we need to look at tonight and then there is the um I have to look back at the agenda the uh uh position control report I do want us to get to as well we were not going to do the second quarter report tonight there um there were some staff who are not um in today um for personal reasons and so the a couple of the questions on the Personnel um on the quarter secondly second quarter report aren't ready yet and um we're not going to do the discussion on strategies to increase revenues and contain costs um I was going to do it Susan but I feel like we just need to park it because we've got to get through the critical stuff and um we are going to if you recall subcommittee we have um an agenda that says or a a year along calendar that says if needed we're going to meet on February 5th and so we are going to meet on February 5th and we're going to cover the strategies for costs we're going to cover the quarterly report we're going to recover uh we're going to cover some pending applications some pending Grant applications or pending Grant approvals and there may be a couple of other things that get added in there um so February 5th is on make sure your calendar is updated and with that we're going to go back to Susan if you want to pull up or Betsy you want to pull up the document um that Susan sent the chart so if you all recall we had a chart it's not that one it's the the one the OSS funding source one all the way on the right I think yeah that one um so if you all recall we had a document that we saw that was just the general fund um at last Thursday meeting and this includes this one maybe you can make it bigger Betsy because that's a little small for people in the cheap seats um that uh this is a document that gives some of the other funding sources this is still non-salary um and Susan will can walk us through it but this gives um a little bit is one more layer of the onion that we're unpeeling um with um through Susan's um uh guidance on um on the different expenses so Susan do you want to just talk through it a little bit and um we can take questions but I just want people to realize that we're going to look at this again I think probably on the 5th as we um also see the salary um overlaid on top of this so go ahead Susan you're on mute sorry uh yes as Mariah said there's uh I I wasn't able to um get some of the information I was hoping tonight because uh staff um for personal reasons weren't in today so um at the uh Schoolboard meeting uh uh the superintendent had um provided some information during his presentation um that was really focused on non-salary expenses and so I took that information that was provided by our finance department and that's what's on the first line so these are our general fund non-salary expenses oftentimes we call them operating costs um and so what you see here is is what um I don't know what the budget was for 23 I don't have that we can dig that up but for tonight um the total expenses in those uh accounts were uh 8,100 9,493 and that's what was spent and so the next uh segment is for the 24 budget what was budgeted and then what was expended or encumbered is the next column and then what was the variance based on that uh those account groups and so we we all know this we you know we were all you know discussing um some of the challenges we had last year and um so we knew that we were uh had some cost over runs in OSS some of this was Transportation some was settlements some were uh out of District Etc contracts and things like that so Al together um as the year closed uh that is what the variance was I also want to say that Diane shared with me that um when she prepared this that uh it was um postings on the townside through um uh September the 15th so I just want to call that out because she felt that was important to say um and so uh meaning that there could have been some shifts in the data since September 15th for the prior year closes unlikely but possibly okay no no no no well there there will I don't know if it's to these accounts but we we have received more invoices for um expenses that are OSS related that there was no PO for from last fiscal year and we had talked a little bit about that at the school board meeting and Jesse had asked well how do we handle that um and so we did we did recently get um another batch of of invoices so uh so that's what can cause the number to change a little bit once once they've identified uh how that that will be um paid so so that's why I think it's important Diane wanted uh to call out that this this on the 24 is expenses as of uh September 15 um and so I'm going to go across this way uh so so fy2 this is what um these non-salary or operating accounts um in combination it's all OSS so it's not special education only it's of course all OSS which is guidance and nursing and all of that that make up OSS all of their non um salary accounts in combination come to this uh 10 million 581 600 and right now um or no as of uh last week when this was presented uh their expenses Andor what was incumbered so what we paid for bills and then what has also been encumbered um is 10,497 th000 so this is information that that was presented last week and and at that time we showed that there was $84,000 available I understand that um OSS has um submitted um uh requisitions so purchase orders could be be um issued and um that balance is no longer available but it it it can change um you know uh but that's that's what that first line is the second one is circuit breaker and so the expenses and circuit breaker aren't salary at all and that um what's charged there are out of District tuitions so there's out of District tuition costs that are in the general fund budget but then there's also um money that's in the circuit breaker that we uh expense out of District tuition's against and so in 23 3 3,526 th000 um and you can read across you're capable of uh you know reading across the line and what I'll say is that um Brookline follows best practice in this regard and so what we take in one year is what you use um to to um offset your special education costs in the next year so there's uh so the amounts that are here are the amounts that we took in so in in 22 the amount we took in for circuit breaker was uh 3,526 th000 and then that money is used in 23 to offset your special education costs and likewise the amount of money taken in 23 is the amount that's showing up in the 24 budget so you have um you know a clear understanding of uh what money is is being used and and you're not wondering you you know geez uh did did the revenue come in did we really get the reimbursement so it's based on actual uh cash receipts in one year and that is best practice and what is recommended so I applaud uh the community for um for using that uh strategy so as you can see little bit uh overs spent last year uh 18,000 so every dime that we had available for our district tuitions out of that account were expended and then this year we had uh 3 Mill 66,000 and right now we're trending above that um so uh idea grants so I just want to say that the idea Grant and Ida grants in general um and most of our federal grants will will run over multiple years so the grant is written in 23 and you spend it you know in 23 and 24 but you can also extend that into 24 and 25 so when presenting it here I I'm representing what the fy4 idea Grant I should have put it all in one line I think um I'll do that next time but um so the idea Grant in 24 isn't all spent in fiscal 24 so I just want to be clear about that so that's why it says expense in the encumbrance so it's it's the amount of money spent in 24 plus what has been spent in 25 that's applicable so let me give you an example the idea Grant here in Brookline includes cost for the summer school program the grant is written from a September date typically um for that 12 months so September 1 through August 31st so the summer school program runs in in an off cycle from our fiscal year if you're following me um and so there's expenses in and and we've accounted for it this way anyways but there's expenses for uh that that come out in 25 that are applicable to the 24 Grant so what I'm doing here is I'm I'm just telling you that the grant was approved for 2,457 th000 and that all in with all of the expending and what's been encumbered across those two years this is what we have committed ourselves to whether it's paid out in an expense and or encumbered and so that one right now is overspent so you're going to say so Susan what do we do with that that means that um there's not enough money in the Grant and so those expenses will then have to be borne by the oper operating budget so that's that's how that is treated do they always have to go to the operating budget or can they be transferred to another grant for example like is applicable to so you can't just move money around right no of course right only if they're Rel to the propos to the other Grant and in all cases with special Revenue funds they're set out for specific purposes and you can't kind of co-mingle so in other words yeah and so if if there's an opportunity but we know already that in the 25 grant there isn't any money to then um allocate and a lot of the expenses um that occurred for the 24 Grand are don't hit the 25 cycle right so it just can I just because I know we're running short on time can I ask you a couple questions and then turn it over to the subcommittee to for questions I know well my first question is I believe that circuit breaker and idea are like the big grants in um for the OSS but there are other grants obviously that OSS receives like ning grants and so forth does this represent the entire universe of special education or will you be or or will you be providing us with the OSS funding sources in their entirety like will we be looking at this we can okay because I would think right there are other grants even if some of the small ones get rolled up into one line I think it would be helpful especially also as we're looking at salary I guess I like if we're talking about OSS as opposed to special education I think it's helpful that we keep our terms that it's truly OSS right um and if it's special education we need to frame that differently um yes can can I just ask a clarifying question though so and I agree that's of course um we can we can include um other you know all of the grants associated with them but are you looking at one-time grants all onetime grants or recurring grants recurring resources or one time funding sources in the years of question exactly it doesn't matter because if we're going to be looking if we're trying to get a we're trying to have the committee understand and everyone understand a sort of holistic perspective of the um strain on funding I think we need to have all fund all the the all funds budget for those particular years whether they're one time or recurring yeah okay um okay that yeah and um and I think we've also like I said we've talked about having salary Are there specific questions from the subcommittee um on this that um they want to ask go ahead Carolyn thanks um thanks for this Susan one question I have is looking at the circuit breaker line and then looking at the fy2 Middle where we are expended encumbered and I'm wondering if you're able to say sort of um if you're able to Project based on past years with respect to where we are right now in January um um like at this point in other years What proportion or percent of where we ended up were we if that question makes sense um can you try me again I'm not I'm not sure I'm I have the essence of what you're asking based on the fact that right now and for example in the circuit breaker we're 1239 15 um over and knowing that at close of fy4 for example we ended up 18757 over like where are we and we're midpoint or I don't know if it's mid but we're in January okay like what might you project in terms of what else like where that okay could land I'm obviously not asking for a specific number but like is this the bulk of it or is it like does it sort of um increase proportionate to where we are in the year like is 123 9915 likely to be kind of is where it ends or double that or does that I think that's a great question it's one I have as well and and it's not something that you can um look at a past Trend because students um you know uh their IEPs and uh you know they may different be different from a placement might be different from one year to the next or the cost might be different from one year to the next um I do have questions which is why I'm really um interested in this audit to be able to learn more about um what these Trends are in special education you know what what is happening in these outed district and settlement lines I don't know I don't know the answer to the question I can only tell you what I can see and if I don't have access to that and I'm not saying I should I'm just saying if I don't know I can't I can't share with you you know uh Impressions about about uh where it might land um so I unfortunately I I can share this with you but I can't answer your question regarding no that makes that makes sense that that basically the nature of this is really not related necessarily to where we are in the year correct thank you okay um I'm going to say thank you Susan for putting this together and we're looking forward to getting the more fleshed out um version for our next meeting I think this is really sort of helpful um primary source material or whatever I'll say an analysis as we continue to go through the audit to inform the committee and and others of um of what's going on okay um okay the last thing that we're going to well one of the last things and I'm so sorry subcommittee you know how I love to run on time but this is we've got just such an important agenda and I'm glad we spent the time on the statement of work and other things so try and do this quick thank you is um The Betsy can you pull up the non-aligned um compensation thank you um Susan do you want to walk us through this in your recommendation you're on mute again foiled by Zoom um yeah so I was asked to um uh you know take a look at this you know non-aligned compensation for this year and we had gathered some information from um the comp communities and you'll remember we had a discussion about what the comparable communities you know are or should be or were um and which ones we should be taking a look at moving forward uh so we did that back in September and then the HR department went to these communities and asked their HR departments you know to provide us with some uh data and that's what I'm presenting to you tonight now um we didn't um when you're looking at um some positions especially District positions or central office positions sometimes there's titling um differences between one school district and another and um and so sometimes it's difficult to be able to see who is alike who's in Al likee position um as easily but principles are pretty straightforward right you have a high school principal everybody has a high school principal and so uh this is this is much uh more straightforward so um we weren't able to get get um information from Belmont and uh we're missing information from Acton boxboro on the high school principal and there was one other and I can't think of what it is what the other community is off the top of my head um but so this is what we're looking at this is what the salary is for the High School principles this year this is base salary so I want to repeat this is base salary this is not all in compensation um so this is the base salary for all of those and so when you take an average of that uh group it comes to 175,000 our uh High School principal's current salary is 180 um and so um you know it's the on on average it's $5,000 higher but it's also $177,000 lower than the highest paid within this group so those that's kind of what my takeaway was from this on the middle school and of course we don't have Middle School principles per se we have K8 which has Elementary in middle school so there isn't um you know a salary salaries from comparable school districts that separate you know that that are combined like ours are so again the same can I just comment one thing Susan just for people who are reading the chart do you mind just scrolling back up Betsy to the high school that most of them there's no high and low because there's only one person but some communities do have more than one right Susan that's why you'll see a high and low for some but not all okay just just to make sure everyone's reading the charts and understanding why some communities have high low and some just have an average when there's only an average it's an N of one thank you right and so yeah exactly so in the middle school you'll see three communities have more than one middle school so I gave you the average of the of their middle school principal salaries and then I gave you the high and the low so that you would know the full range as well as the average um principal salary in that Community um so here again same information for middle school principals the average Middle School salary for our comparables is 158 um 759 and um our average principal salary is 154 773 the high of ours is 1619 and uh the lowest paid principal is 140 so quite a range there um um and as I've made note here is that our average principal salary is uh below um the average Middle School principal salary um um but at the lower end of our our salary guide It's substantially below what the average is okay so then we get to the elementary schools of course every Community has more than one elementary school so again here I've given you the low and the high for each community and then the average of their PR uh Elementary School principal salaries and then I averaged the average and uh came up with the 148 214 in comparison to ours which is 154 so we're higher than the average at the elementary lower than the average of the Middle School um and here again um even on the lower end of our principal salary is lower than the elementary average so uh those were some of the Impressions so maybe I'll pause for a moment and see if anybody has any questions about any of that or I did appreciate when you were saying that usually it's hard to compare like with like and with the K8 model um at least some of our principles are serving the role of principal of the whole school as well as vice principal of part of the school so it is you know it is a a very big job compared to um what we see in other [Music] communities um Helen go ahead yeah one thing that's not here that helps us to understand some with the variation in numbers is the amount of years the principal might be in the school um obviously you know principles who've been there 20 years are making more than principal who just started um so it's just a another point of fact but I well you don't want comments on what where we want to go yet right so I'll keep my mouth well um I think that that's probably where we get in the recommendations where Susan is giving us that Latitude to accommodate that sure uh do you want to keep going or Jesse go ahead yeah thanks my only comment on um the values that were calculated where we're saying above the average or below the average for the brook line number versus the others is really um can be misleading potentially from a statistical standpoint only because one of them could just be a wild outlier for some reason that's not representative of all the others so we should be a little cautious about I think Susan about like picking up the number is saying like you know Brook line is like 18,000 below something where that one number related to the others might just be a huge outlier like it was I think for the High School principles um relative to the others like looking at all the other values except for that one that seemed very high or very different all the other ones were basically clustered together so we just want to be careful when we're calling it out to that point um Susan like for example what you see here there's a low of 72,500 at Acton boxboro so the top R cell but that just got rolled in but my guess is that that person must be like like is that their fractional principal salary and they're also doing other things is there really a principal who like is that really a 1.0 FTE or does that represent something else looks like yeah yes I'd have to follow up with the HR department to get the Nuance of that but it's it's fair values is fine it's just drawing a conclusion about the the biggest difference between two may not really be accurate yeah that's fair okay let's keep going on the on the document all right so um so then in this this section um I'm just sharing with you um the second part which is we can look at comps and to tell if we are um competitive you know so as we we have principles right now that we have uh we are currently out on the market to um to attract you know we want to make sure that we're competitive and that people that are sitting principles may look at Brookline and say yeah I'd like to come there and that is within um you know uh the range that I would expect for my experience and credentials the second part of that though is um you know looking at compensation within the organization and so this next section here looks at um you know administrators that are building level administrators and it and it really looks at you know what are the ranges within because super you know a building principle should not be making less money than people they supervise I mean there should be some distance between um what uh a person that's working for you is earning and what you are and the other thing too is that with uh principles and most non-aligned we work 12 months and in most other cases so principles would be in that um category but um assistant principales and directors and Unit B staff uh work less than a 12-month calendar and so they work fewer days and we want to make sure that there is some distance between their pay for Less days and a principal's pay who works year round so those are some of the factors so when I so when I do an analysis like this I do try to look at what are those banss and are are we compensating you within our organization in a way that makes um makes sense and so that's what this this part of the the the analysis provides you with sorry Susan I'm so sorry can you just repeat I'm not sure I fully heard you did you say that the director coordinators Unit B don't work they work a different year and can you say again what that is um it's not the same for each so if look at the unit B contract it says uh coordinators work let's say 193 days and a director might work 200 days and the athletic director might work to 25 um they don't get vacation days and things like that they're paid for the number of days they work just like a teacher Works 183 days and we pay them for that um and so their pay structure is based on this per DM scale as opposed to a salary year round um and so um um Elementary School assistant principles don't work year round but the principal Works year round so we want to make sure that if assistant principles are making 144,000 and I do know of one case with the lowest paid principle where a person that reports to them is making more money than they are so we we really don't want that to be the case right to work more days and make less money um it just doesn't intuitively make sense and it's not good for morale so um so this is how it breaks um assistant principal range um is 108 or just just south of 109 to 144 um Unit B directors and coordinators 101 to 148 and then our principal is the 140 to 161 and again um more experienced principles are 161 um um and and so that you would expect that and um and then the average again and then I gave you the high school principal um salary which is always going to be higher and why I really want to call this out here is that if you're going to raise your Elementary School principles I mean High School principles an incredibly is a notch more demanding I mean the the amount of night meetings and weekends and programs and the size of the school and all of that is just significantly more than at the elementary level and so they always make more money they're right up there um usually some of the top paid in your organization so um if we're if we need to raise the Elementary School principles we've got to look at the relationship between that P pay range and what the high school pay range is so um based on all of that and and I know you've you've you've read this um and from an equity perspective um it you know the recommendation is to consider bringing the uh prek through eight principals from um up to a 158 to a 168 range and the high school principal range uh to 185 to 195 I also provided you like with information about so what does that cost you know and and also know that um uh salary increases for Unit B and teachers um are uh 2.75 so that's where that number comes from so if we multiply the current salaries by 2.75 it it would cost in next year's budget $44,000 um and if we did the adjustments with the cola it would come to 104,000 so um I also provided a note here on some other forms of compensation to Helen's Point um in some schools they don't give longevity anymore they'll they'll bake everything into the base salary um and so you might see higher pay um in some of those you know higher pays that you can you see in some of our comps could be that but I don't have um copies of the principal's contract for those school districts though I did ask the HR Director to reach out so so they could have a better sense of that we we weren't able to secure um actual contracts for the principal so I could look and see how do they structure their pay for us we do provide uh longevity pay um stiens for doctoral uh degrees and annual vacation buyback the annual vacation buyback is something that's I've never uh um seen I don't know if it's Unique to Brookline or unique to the area it was one of the things I was curious to learn and then I provided you with the leave benefits as well just so you would have um an idea of you know kind of what is included in their um salary and benefit program so I'll you can now discuss um thank you and it's 659 I feel terrible committee I want to can I ask Susan just a point of clarification the director coordinator salaries and assistant principal salaries for the you have um in the table at the top is that for is that have you did you roll that forward for next year already or is that the current year these are all current year salaries okay so um so those will be getting a 2.75% increase on top of this already so for example people who are making 148 this year would be adding on an additional I'm doing this on the top of my head $4,500 or so or $4,000 some somewhere in that bucket so they're they will already be making over 150 um at the top level for directors and assistant principles is that correct or vice principles okay um thank you Jesse go ahead and then I want to get us to hopefully a vote by the subcommittee oh okay go ahead Jesse yeah I just I just wanted to say I don't know Susan how long you had to work on this but this is amazing thank you just for the effort you put in and the team to get this together reading it down it seems like so straightforward but I cannot imagine how many hours it took to put all this together and get all this information thank you very much you're welcome thanks for saying that Jesse Caroline and then B sorry I was looking at this on my uh other thing um so forgive me because I think that and echoing this is great super interesting clear comprehensive Susan thank you and forgive me um because I think this probably started before I was here um this is super valuable the purpose of of doing this is to like inform our Recruitment and offers and just give me like a because I'm thinking about other information that would be interesting sort of in this General bucket so I think that's a question for you Mariah oh okay I was just I can curious what what was the theis of this we have to set the we are the ones who set pay so This Is Us literally setting pay right now the range of pay that can be offered okay yes and that's why we're going to be voting correct and then it goes to full committee and there is this is one part of a much larger document that you did join the committee last year if I recall when we talked about um at least the second version of the non-aligned compensation remember when we talked about like all the summer program stiens and all of that everything that's not a contractual salary y we set so so that's why like we have to set the stiens for all the different programs we set we are the ones who um negotiate the superintendent salary we are the ones who set these salaries okay then I think my this is a comment that I think is relevant and I've raised this before and I think I know there's been a lot going on I think it's important for the school committee um to be provided with the like I don't know what it would look like a full range or report of the um independent employment agreements I would really love to know like the list of all the positions and the salaries um I think that's something we we should have so that may be a separate conversation but I just want to put that out there that I think that's important thank you thanks B um hi I I'm probably just confused but uh the cost of living adjustment at 2.75 and $44,000 why is that different from the cost to implement and different from the total increase I I guess I just want to better understand the total increase that 60% is the Delta between what Susan is proposing and what just a 2.75% um increase across the board would be okay right thanks y those two numbers add up to each other the 44 plus the 60 is the 104 thank you wow um my family is starting to implode at 7 o'clock as I'm sure you are all starting to implode uh I'm assuming your hand is down now Val Helen go ahead so just remark I think it is critical for us to pay our administrators well they are the backbone that keeps the schools together these are positions that are hard to fill well they're not hard to fill all the time but they're hard to fill with people who are really good and I for one uh feel we should compensate them well we have always been known as a district that compensates our principles uh well so just that's my opinion um lus have you reviewed this already yes and do you feel comfortable with the recommendations that they will allow you to um retain your principles um uh appropriately I think you asked an interesting question when you when you asked about the the current salary rollup um and so I'm just wondering is there a little bit more buffer that needs to be applied there so when you asked about the the current salaries and then when that increase gets applied um so that would be my only so would your suggestion be for example to increase the prek through eight principls by perhaps two to $3,000 on perhaps the top end yeah okay yeah Susan do you have any thoughts on increasing the top end to let's say 171 for K8 um I think if the issue is that we're concerned about um the high level the higher end of the assistant principles and or directors going up that the issue is more at the lower end so maybe you'd want to go 160 to 170 you know what I mean I would not ra if that if that's the issue you know again you want to you want to people want to feel that they there's dignity in their pay and you know if you're yeah and so I I would I would say if that's the concern to I would bring the whole range up by you know to 160 to 170 or something it'll just increase the bottom line a little bit but okay um I'm going to make a motion to um to I don't know what the exact wording is but to recommend to full school committee a range for ka8 principles of 160 to 170,000 for salaries next year and High School principal for 185 to 195,000 for next year do I have a second second okay Sarah how do you vote Yes Val yes Carolyn yes and I vote Yes um okay we are going to skip the position control report for tonight I'm goingon to ask the subcommittee to take a look at it and to write back to um me if you have any specific questions or write back to Susan if you have any specific questions but we'll we'll get another bite at that um in the next month and I think there was only two um changes this month but I really appreciate everyone sticking in it for the long haul um through 7 pm and we did a lot of really important stuff tonight so thank you for that thank you Susan thank you lonus thank you to the committee and the other staff who joined us so much appreciated um and thank you to our advisory committee colleagues who um some of who were able to join us as well and to speak up and of course you're always welcome to to chime in um but just repeating that now when it when when we've run out of time but that's a general blanket statement that you're always we want to hear your voice as well um so thank you everyone and we'll come back with on the on the 5th of February with um with more have a good night thanks good night bye thank you