##VIDEO ID:Jcll-3PkONA## [Music] okay welcome to the October 23rd 2024 Finance subcommittee of the Brooklyn school committee we're GNA Jump Right In with the agenda the first item hi Sarah I don't she can hear me yet the first item and I can't get my computer to toggle over is the minutes from is it September 26th or 27th I I can't see the date anymore because my computer's misbehaving it was um it was the September 18th joint meeting September 18th yes thank you um can I get a motion for approval of the minutes motion thank you Sarah Carolyn do you second yes okay Val how do you vote Yes Carolyn yes Sarah yes and I vote Yes next item on the agenda is this is really frustrating to not be able to see what I'm should be looking at [Music] um sorry is uh review and approval of gifts yeah I like to be able to actually like talk about them and okay now I got there um review and approval of gifts so we have um multiple gifts um very kindly offered to the public schools of Brooklyn um the first one is from the lawren school PTO for $3,498 for the subscription renewal for Lexia the next one is from the Brooklyn high school PTO for $8,600 for the senior ESS Workshop um the next is from shashana Clark for $500 for the queer Student Union at the high school uh the next one is from anarie Carlson for $25 for the queer Student Union Leslie Thompson um for $200 for the outstanding speaker series which I believe is also related to the career Student Union I could be wrong but I believe those are connected and then last is an anonymous donor who has given $125,000 um to Brooklyn food services for the zero waste initiative um and there is some backup documentation on both the college essay Workshop um queer student union and the outstanding speaker series as well as um the letter from the um agent of the anonymous owner there any questions on the gifts I wanted to just make a quick comment it's always worth mentioning that one of the reasons why schools need subscriptions is because when we were trying to trim the budget a bit last time through we took out some subscriptions and and the teachers have really felt that um Lexia you know gives um different tiered reading for students to read um and it's an important subscription for us thanks Sarah um can I get a motion for I have I have a question sorry go ahead so the anonymous donor gift um I think this came up in something else the other day so there was also an anonymous gift to the town that created the sustainability Division I think um we also had the I believe the same Anonymous Doner gave money last year for the dishwasher installation and purchase of the silverware and trays and um all the reusable Cutlery and and Trays so I don't think I have any problem with it but it is interesting like is that sort of typical to get such a large Anonymous donation to the extent that it can like create a position like how does that come about like are we out there seeking these or does just someone shows up and says hey I want to create this and here's the money really don't know Susan do you have any information or no um I don't think we went out seeking it usually with gifts they approach us sometimes they'll hear of a need and um and then an anonymous donor will um submit a letter and some funding uh this is a my understanding is this is a three it's the second of a three-year uh commitment from them but they will only make um an annual donation that's my understanding um and so the position I believe was added last year and is being funded again this year and next year would be the third year um and then uh there is no um I I I don't believe that there was any commitment to maintaining the position after funding was no longer available okay that's my understand is this just it or then do do we have an obligation to provide any kind of reporting to them or like are there strings or this is just a gift and not a grant yeah any strings would be in the letter as it was presented and um so any restrictions on how we spend it um and or any requirement to report back on progress or anything like that would always be stated if there is a requirement in the in the donor's letter great thank you yep um any more questions or comments okay I'll take a motion to approve I'll move it thank you do I have a second second thanks Val Sarah how do you vote Yes Yes Val yes Carolyn yes and I vote Yes uh the next thing is Grant acceptance if I recall correctly so there are multiple grants here um and there this is about I think 115 pages of of documentation here but this is um many of our federal entitlement grants so you can see there's Federal Title One or 300 about 350,000 um Federal title two for about 120,000 Federal title three for 125,000 um Federal title four for about 50,000 um and then our state grant for Meco which is about $2.35 million um and then finally there is the um 5 which is for about 6 or $667,000 and that's for a career in Tech head um are there any questions of the grant acceptance that we see here Susan I had one question um but I don't know if you have if you know this do you remember what our Meco was last year is this flat is it level funded and increase a decrease do you happen to know not off the top of my head I don't okay um I would just like to say for the record that we are getting questions from um a group of metco parents as to how we spend money and how the amount that we spend on metco compares to the grant that comes in so I'm um looking into that right now isn't that historically the grant is a lot lower than what we spend that's what I think but I'm looking into it just so I'm not answering I'm pretty sure that's a like resounding yes it's just a biom matter of how much yeah y I want I want the parents to have a you know real answer so I think one of the things that would help is um in the grant documentation it does give an overview of that and then the other resource you have is um in the budget we provide a little synopsis of what is funded through the Grant in a in a real succinct way so it talks about how many staff members and things like that so those are two ways that um we share that information uh in in in a in in a public way so I'm happy to that's great and I love that the answer is that it's in a public way that's well and the the documentation you have here Sarah is literally the details of all the expenditures it's summarized there but you can see the exact line items um in this documentation and also hopefully connecting with Malcolm yep okay uh can I get a motion for approval so moved okay do I have a second second um Sarah how do you vote Yes Carolyn yes Belle yes and I vote Yes um thank you Britt for coming by um the next item is um request for Grant ex uh Grant whatever submitt thank you and this is for $12,500 for a grant um a proposal to desie for um a tutoring program at one of the the um homeless shelters in town for students who are um um non-native English speakers and it will support them through multilingual tutoring um so any questions or comments on this grant my comment was it sounds like a really great program so yeah supportive um I'll move to um approve the submission can I get a second okay Carolyn how do you vote Yes B yes and Sarah yes and I vote Yes okay next item on the agenda I think is position control is that right Betsy um yes um um actually the next thing is to talk about um authorizing the chair sub committee review these types of applications um meetings right so as I preview for you all not at the workshop but at the previous meeting um there was a request from staff to um be able to um address these uh pre like the submissions requests for submissions um off cycle so for example if something is due in two weeks but we're not meeting for um until after that um they wanted to be able to submit them in this off cycle and so the question is um and I think think we already talked about this and it seemed like there was no objection but um having the finance chair which is me for now um be delegated to review them in the off cycle and then report on them just as like a parallel to what we do with the um accounts payable Warrant Where I report out um and I think um it makes sense to have a vote on this so that it's sort of formally documented as opposed to whatever so this would be a vote to recommend to full school committee to adopt this practice Susan yes um so one of the things I want to make sure um is that uh they're not submitted randomly to you by staff members because there is an internal process that should be followed and once the internal process is followed then then and if that has happened um it would come from me um to you and not around uh the superintendent and I perfect thank you so um can we get a motion for whatever I just said a motion to authorize the finance chair to um review grants um between meetings and is that to recommend to the full school committee yes to recommend to the full school committee do you should there be some language that speaks to what Susan just said like I think that that's more of a procedure than a process like I'll say that for example right now in our policy manual the the practice of accounts payable warrant just says that it's delegated to the finance chair it doesn't say like the whole procedures it just says that um I can sign off on them just the same way it says that Helen can sign off on the capital um warrants so I don't think we need to talk about that and my goal would be that when we get to the finance policy redo in the spring that hopefully we could just tack this in there Susan so that that way it's sort of formally documented in the policy but um but this is sort of a stop Gap while we don't have it in the policy but as far as the procedure go the procedure should be the right way that Susan described it but the procedure just gets developed separately from policy that's my thinking of it I I think given what we have seen in practice so far that it's it's worthy of note that it would be done through um from from my office to you and not and not from staff yeah yes but I don't think we need that in the actual motion that's all that's I was saying um okay can we get a vote for a motion do we have uh we don't have did you make the motion Mariah I did make the motion okay all right we need a second B Carolyn how do you vote Yes Sarah yes Val yes and I vote Yes okay um um the next thing on the agenda is the position position control okay do you mind pulling that up yeah let me grab that so um this is really no not yet it's still in the request for Grant there we go do you mind making it yeah like a thousand times bigger so as we have been refining this report which is very handy um we see that a couple of changes um from when we saw this last month one is um the net cost now so it's only showing rather than showing um the cost of that position it's just so showing the net cost so that we only see where there's actual budget impacts um and then as we'd also discussed this is sort of a running track record of the entire year so you can see the original batch we discussed in August then the September batch and now this new October batch um and so there are six positions that were allocated um and I guess I would throw it open for if people have questions I have a question but um I'll wait to see if there are other questions from the committee I have a question um and I might have asked this previously in an email so the recess monitor Pierce Pierce building admin support so um my recollection was that in the budget development process um what was brought to the school committee was that Jamie um Yad Off principal yof had some requests for additional staff um due to being in in two schools and those were um those were laid out pretty explicitly um and and didn't happen right so like she didn't get the second um librarian sorry I'll continue okay so that what was said was some of what she's requesting is administrative support so we're asking for 40,000 for that and then so just I just want to understand so instead of that that's being switched to something called a recess Monitor and I'm curious whether a recess I don't call a recess monitor position at other schools so if that could be explained because it was so specifically requested in the budget as admin i' I'd just like to understand the rationale for changing it to a a different newly created position that I'm not sure exists out of schools sure so what was approved in the budget was a a a bucket of money to help jimie as she identified administrative needs to be able to address them so um having uh she is determined that some of her administrative need is to have somebody to monitor kids at recess because they are um across the street these are the little guys so she um felt it was important to use some of that money for this administrative purpose if it's not $40,000 it's just a component of that she also used a small amount of money over the summer to help with the uh some administrative support for the move to help her coordinate that so it's just she's using little bits of money here and there as she sees a need that's associated with with uh uh managing or navigating um uh because of the building project so what is the cost of the recess monitor if it's not an even swap for the 40,000 and and it's posted as a par yes yep so is a par admin it's a part it's a part-time it's a it's it's to support I mean it's anything that's related to would supporting the administration is the way that we if it's a little bit of Secretarial help or if it's a little bit of this we would consider that as we Define Administration anything that's related to anything that would be categorized as Administration not as we don't Define Administration as an administrator this just not that's it's just not the nomenclature that uh applies as we think about it anyways and and maybe uh it's it's good that you ask so that we can explain oh no I I understand what I'm just saying the position is posted as a paraprofessional yes whatever so what is the cost if it's not the 40,000 oh gosh um let me look it up see if I can get my hands on that let me see going to take them up let me look it up instead of everybody sitting here while I dig through records I'll get back to you can I ask a separate question sure um the last row says that there's a physical therapist coming in and that the funding sources is to replace the PT or to eliminate the PT assistant yes so is the physical therapist coming in a fractional FTE for a fulltime FTE okay and then on oh sorry go ahead 6 okay and then for the line above that it looks like it's a Pera at rle being swapped for AA at rle is that accurate oh well I probably had a mistake okay no that's um I thought huh that seems like very detailed reporting that is microscopic there I'll look sorry about that okay thank you y um any other questions on the position report I'm sorry that I interrupted um earlier I I just want to make sure that we're careful with tone because if you indeed really want to question whether something is worthwhile that's the tone that comes through when we're sort of you know very careful about nomenclature and everything is that for some reason we don't trust that the princip needs yet this again right we've already said no to a couple of things we're kind of in that place where just I think this point have to be a little bit careful with what we're pressing forward with are you speaking to me Sarah yes I am oh well my role here is to analyze the information so I'm comfortable asking questions but thanks it is worth mentioning that you know the recess monitor is within this larger bucket that was allocated um last spring um it's a little little over 19,000 for that recess monitor thank you thank you um I just want to say thank you Susan I feel like this is an incredible level of detail and I am just so grateful for it because it lets us connect the lines year to year so um that's it's really amazing and thank you to you and your team for for and to HR too if they're involved in this as well for the finance and HR teams or whoever's doing to pull it together because it's really very helpful um much appreciated um okay what's next on our agenda are we up to FY 24 close uh no we're going to talk about the um potential Amendment to the transportation oh yes okay me pull that up um so Susan can I give a little voiceover of this is that okay based on our conversation earlier okay so I have to say that I read this and I was I am not intimately familiar with all the details of the bus contract and so I was a little bit um confused myself as I was reading this like there was a lot of details here and I couldn't follow along with the story completely but Susan was wonderful in talking me through it a little bit earlier and um and if it's okay with everyone I would like to summarize the things that I think are the critical things to take away from this and then Susan maybe you fill in if I've forgotten I had three of them let's see if I can remember the the three things I thought were really important um and then we can go from then we can have open up the discussion but the the important thing that I think is here is um Betsy if you don't mind just going to well actually it's here in the in the third paragraph So the 1.5 million that was in the Pierce building project budget for um had for relocation included Transportation originally within that 1.5 million was the 720,000 and that was an estimate now that the ANF team has worked out the details it's actually going to be $50,000 less to provide the transportation than originally estimated so that's good news that means there's another $50,000 in the budget and we're coming in under cost you know so this is all this is excellent I thought that was really really good information to understand um the second big thing is that um there is sorry let me turn that off um is that the um that while the con the reason that this is coming to the school committee is because while the fund is coming from the project budget the contract itself is through um the schools through and so the contract will be amended on our part but the funding will come from the project budget um and then the third big thing now I can't remember what my third big thing was Susan do you remember what the third thing was that I thought was important um explaining the analysis piece um so that people would understand difference between um routs and uh buses on yeah I guess I found that my my part of this was that the whole thing about buses was sort of a red herring and that we don't need to know how many buses are providing the roots the important thing is that there's three additional routes and there's a lot of details here about all the like the first paragraph is a lot of different details about all the logistics of running the buses that um that we probably would all require at least an Associates if not a bachelor degree in bus transportation to follow as well as seeing the contract and really working through the details and I'm not sure that that would be the best use of our time but the important thing is that people who have done it are have run out all the numbers and it's coming in under cost that was my that's my big overview of it Susan is there anything else you want to add and then I'll take I'll go to Val for her questions or comments no uh it was merely the first the first section there was just really related to the kind of things that I would include in the uh Amendment uh to the contract so that was my rationale for putting some of those details in it um but I understand now in so doing I've confused people and I apologize for that I was trying to be really diligent and uh the second the second part where the note and the analysis was was just to provide you with information about how how the addendum um that we're agreeing to would then be funded because it wouldn't be coming out of of our operating budget so apparently I did a very poor job of no of that uh trying to consolidate a lot of information sometimes uh when I'm sewing in the weeds sometimes I I lose uh I lose the reader and I apologize for that no no worries it was a lot of detail beyond my skill but it's clear that you are intimately versed with what's going on with the buses so thank you Val go ahead and then Caroline thanks so Susan I just want to understand the only thing that we're amending in the contract is that adding Roots is that that's it we're just striking out and adding a line that says we're adding these roots there's no change to our anything else is that right no no we no what we're doing is we're adding additional Roots um and it will take uh you know two buses each bus runs two routes and so when you have three routes it takes two buses and that's why on the analysis on the next page it says two not three it's because yeah okay thank you y Carolyn go ahead thanks and Susan I might ask you to say that again but maybe it doesn't matter what I'm trying to understand is what this is I I guess I want to roll back a little bit to understand sort of the base cost so typically my understanding is like last year PSB contracts four buses this year we're cont Contracting six buses is that correct no last year we had six this year we had six um there there I think what what shifted last year is that two buses that were previously funded out of a revolving fund because you paid because Riders paid fees at the high school um would that those fees were eliminated and so last year all six buses were paid for out of the operating budget this year it's the same okay because I I'm just looking at something that says we had four buses last year um in this memo or somewhere else on the transportation page because what I'm trying to understand is what the base cost for running the buses for Pierce is they're new I would think they're new buses and I'd like like I know from working on the South Brooklyn bus it's just like how much is a bus $18,000 a year that's the contract for that bus so I'm trying to understand what is the contract for the peerce buses to begin with and is that what we're adding to or your yeah there isn't a contract for the Pierce budget there isn't a contract for the Pierce uh Transportation because it didn't exist the the amendment to the contract is to add the pier transportation so buses that are already running routs and again my understanding is we had four buses and they run roots and now we have new Roots so how is that not two additional physical buses because we're not we're not adding buses we're adding routs so the contract states that each bus runs two routes now they're running three or so this is a so like I'm picturing literally the bus bus number one bus number two three four and those buses have always run their routs in Brookline now we have a new root so how do we not have an additional contract to service the Pierce students that's what we're doing that's why this is before you and so that new bus is 164,000 a year and go that's the the numbers here so Eastern bus so there's two parts to it if you look at the analysis there's the Eastern component yep which is two buses at the reduced rate right so if you do a standard bus under the contract is $550 for this year yeah because we're not adding whole new buses were adding routs the rate is reduced to 355 for the Pierce addition okay so I negotiated down from 550 to 355 for these additional routs because I argued that we are not adding full buses so they reduce a physical bus so it's like the bus I'm gonna make this up goes from South Brookline to Z block and then that same physical bus let's call it bus number one then is repurposed to do the Pierce route yes got it okay thank you yeah like I have to sort of picture the physical buses and so so this even though this has all been running we're just approving it now we are we are yes because since in practice uh we're not actually um gaining two new buses it didn't make sense to go ahead and pay for two new buses when we uh when in reality we're just adding Roots so I've been working with the director of operations and the bus company to come up with um an agreement that I'm bringing before you tonight um uh you know for for the Pierce uh school transportation which winds up being less expensive now the next line so you see Eastern um Easter doesn't have a capacity if we have more Riders to add so our second bus company is RSC and this is our new special education bus contractor and they have indicated that they can add a van who could do multiple shuttles um if we get into a situation where um we have more ridership than capacity on the Eastern buses so I'm including in the budget for the Pierce Transportation this uh kind of circuit breaker or um so that if as we get into the cold um weather more students ride then uh we'll have the ability um to be able to add yet another one so the combination of the two um so 299 was the um is the contracted rate with RSC and uh the combination of the Eastern plus this RSC um would bring us to those two buses we don't need it right now um but since I'm projecting out for the building project what the longer term costs are uh we included that here in the analysis but I'm not looking for an addendum because we bid these uh the rates for RSC um last spring so we're all set and as far as that goes I'm just I'm just trying to tie the numbers out so you understand especially especially you those of you who are um participating in building committee meetings and are interested in the transportation component of the relocation cost that you understand with Clarity what has been included in the budget and so that's why I'm providing that here so that you as the school committee understand what the total costs are and where I arrive them how I ared them thanks Susan Carolyn can I just want to be mindful we're at 540 and I just want to make sure like if you have like maybe one more question on it but we're going to not be able to even get through the rest of our stuff if we spend too much time on sure I wanted to understand that adding two buses on Wednesday afternoon that's folded into this okay because we agreed to it so we're not paying extra for that we have a blended rate at the 355 to account for that the 355 is a blended rate to account for that for the Wednesday afternoons got it yep Carol go ahead hopefully a quick question I'll make this real quick so you're projecting out the cost for four years you said you have a fixed cost contract is there any um uh do we bear any risk for changes in or or potential benefit for changes in fuel prices so if it's built in the escalator uh is built in already that's why you see Carol if you see under Eastern the the costs are increasing slightly that's all based on the contract okay thank you yep thanks okay so the motion if Betsy if you don't mind going up to the first page motion I'll make is to authorize the administration to amend the Eastern bus company contract to add the roots needed to transport students to the Fisher Hill Campus during the Pierce construction project based on the terms outlined above um can I just ask one question now that I'm reading out that loud Susan even though RSC was on the table on page two we don't need to amend that contract we only need to amend Eastern bus correct okay so I'm gonna make the motion do I have a second second okay Sarah how do you vote Yes B yes Carolyn yep and I vote yes thank you okay next item on the agenda is the FY we just absolutely need to say thank you to Susan because we got in a situation in the past where we hadn't had that contract for the extra additional that came up and so it's just we're in such better place right now so thank you Susan great um we're gonna pick up the fy2 24 budget report is this Diane or who's taking this Diane's taking this okay Diane you're on mute gets you every time Betsy can you make it bigger while Diane's coming off mute sorry about that um Betsy yep Betsy's got it okay um the amended budget shows the increase that we were voted from the good graces of the advisory committee and as of September 15 we spent most of it we had more bills come in very late in June we had more encumbrances come in very late late in June that uh distressed me heartily um but it was within the scope of the projections we had done and uh this is where we stand so at the moment it looks like the 89,000 will be going back to free cash but I have heard rumors that some additional fy2 24 bills have turned up question Diane are you ready for questions yes please okay so I just want to say um by my calculation um this this additional the additional cost um brought us over the budget by .3% of the budget so this is um quite close to the original budget and um if we were 3% under the budget we'd all be a little bit happier but this is really very impressive to bring it in so close so um thank you for for that work um any questions from the committee on the FY 24 close I would ask Diane when does the close actually close when the town finishes with the audit okay so there'll be little Tweaky but you know this is the of it we've submitted the end of the year report to desie which is um sorry I shouldn't speak in in jibber jabber um the for those who don't know the end of the year report is the very extensive accounting of educational costs from both the school committee and the municipality that's submitted from every school district in the state for the Department Department of Elementary and secondary education if you go to their website and you look at per pupil expens ures the end of the year report is where they get that information and they use that to publish information about peral expenditures and also to report to the federal government um it lags sometime behind usually a year or two behind but it's a very important fiscal report for all school districts thank you other questions from the committee or advisory committee colleagues of course you're always is welcome to ask questions I have another question which is um I know that we already had set our budget in our categories for the current fiscal year but was there anything that happened like are we going to adjust any of the categories at all given anything that happened in FY 24 adjust them anymore past where we already adjusted them does that question make sense it does and I think that's part of what we're working on for the quarterly report for 25 okay which Speaking of which we are not going to do that tonight because we the quarterly report is not right exactly so that one will be deferred for a month um okay that's helpful to understand okay if there's no more questions from the partici ipants then we will go on to our next item on the agenda thank you Diane for that presentation very welcome okay so um budget development so we originally had been considering that we were going to talk about both the non-aligned positions um as well as user fees and if you all recall we had reviewed the non-aligned positions in the spring and we had some questions on them for example why were certain directors paid at certain rates and why we're there just was like generally questions around the rationale behind the the pricing or the um fee the compensation my goodness the compensation structure for the different positions and I think that and the team is still working on on that um and also if you recall the non-aligned fees or the non-aligned compensation um also didn't include the non-aligned um salaries for central office staff um which typically it would include that because the benchmarking had not been complete at that point so um like the fy2 q1 report we're going to defer the non-aligned salary we're going to focus on the fees tonight before we get into the fees discussion um I want to give a little bit of a preface and a history and then we have a vote on the agenda and I want to take that one first and then we'll get into the meat of the fees so um the history of the fees was we took up building user fees as well as the other user fees pretty in pretty great detail in Spring of 2023 um and we did a whole redo of the user fees which hadn't been touched since before covid and then as you all might recall I feel like we're talking about covid a lot tonight Carla but we weren't renting out the buildings either for multiple years during covid and so um and so they had the rates had um were not refreshed since before covid and in the meantime we had quite a large increase in um in in particular I'll say utilities costs that were part of the um the additional usage that the building incurs during these off hour uses and so um we had refreshed all of the building um fee rates at that point and then so that was spring of 2023 and then if you all recall um Matt Gillis um moved on um later that spring slash in the summer and then we did not have an operations director for a year luckily now we have Joe Albuquerque who is exactly thumbs up for Joe um and we're really um thrilled to have him here and he is still getting caught up with all of the different buildings operations um aspects including the um building rental and so um what we were what Susan and I have discussed is um giving Joe and suan um this year to um get their arms around um how how the building rentals work now um and then also look at how the um how they should work and then also look at sort of clearing up any sort of um we'll say Legacy user fee questions that might have aroen Arisen during to due to miscommunication or due to lack of communication different things that could have happened and so B basically um the idea would be to have a vote to authorize staff to look into and clear um and negotiate any sort of um prior or current year charges um because there's still again this the what we set up in 23 and then making sure it actually got implemented correctly some of the charges may have come in too high so they're going to work through any of the details this year clear everything up learn how things work and come back to us with after the end of this year with the sort of fresh understanding and a proposal for how we should be handling going forward so I think that makes a lot of sense um Joe's been here I think just over or just around three months so this is all quite there's quite a bit of work to do um and so my proposal would be to make a motion to I think we have the wording on here so vote to authorize staff to negotiate PRI prior and current year charges and it should say relating to building fees building rental fees so I hope that was clear it's just a lot of history and like letting staff have the time and the space to um get caught up and make sure that all of the accounts are caught up and understood and sorry we don't have that's not in our materials but you're putting something on the screen it's on it's no there's nothing on the screen it was but it's on the agenda just as a 3.2 3A point2 as a possible vote we'll get into the whole fees discussion but I'm sort of saying let's park the building rental fees portion of this we will talk about other fees but just the building rental fees portion of it which I say just like if you look at the total fees it's this one area which is quite complex and huge um but there's lots of other fees to talk about so we're going to give them the goal is to give them a year to to wrap their arms around it and we'll discuss the rest of the fees and and make a plan for those separately and this is the stuff we've talked about before like after school programs weekend programs music school extended days enrichment um churches who rent um yeah there's a whole bunch of different renters who um who use the different so you're saying let's just park it that's right they'll continue to do the operation like they're actually doing the operations right but we're not GNA try do that relooking exactly until they have the sort of the data to be coming at it from a really informed perspective um okay so I made the motion do I have a second thank you Val Sarah how do you vote Yes Carolyn y yes Val yes and I vote Yes um question on this vote that we just took does it need to be a recommendation to full school committee or can the finance subcommittee s of take this on their own that's I guess a question for Susan and Betsy well since it's policy and policy is school committee not Finance specific I would I would say yes during your report you you should probably okay so then that vote was recommendation to full school committee that we do whatever I just said and then and Betsy will you make sure it's on our next agenda I will I'll put on I'll put it on for the 30th thank you um okay so so that was a little bit of the history and now I think I'll turn it over to you Susan to talk about um some of the other context um how you want to approach this in terms of best practices and and and looking at the fees we have and where we're going to go yes so I um bety if you can yes we go yeah there we go so uh one of the things that is um helpful um to people that are paying user fees is to have some measure of predictability um and it's also helpful from an administrative standpoint to not to have to take a deep dive into every single user fee program every year to evaluate um you know whether the fee is adequate or not so uh what Mariah and I have been talking about or might have even been um considered before is that you get on a rotation um so that each year you you do a set number of uh reviews um and the others um uh remain relatively uh flat unless there's a reason to um uh incrementally increase over the year at a certain set rate like cost of living type thing um but what I have before you is um for discussion is this rotation so this year we would look at beep and Bas um and the reason for that is because of course beef just went to full day and we set um a tuition rate without really having all the data around enrollment um and interest so we felt that uh uh we should take a another look at that um since uh you know we didn't have any historical data to rely on um this fall after uh enrollments for the program were um were well in um into well I I don't want to say complete because we could have shifts um from now until the end of the year but at least we'd have a good a good uh sense of of what the enrollments would be and then we could look and see how does that relate to tuitions um so that's why beep and then base um has had some challenges over the last number of years um and we have some concern about their solvency and so uh looking at base uh early to see if there's um some adjustments that need to be made made so that they are able to at least break even um I think is important because uh you know if that program can't be self- sustaining you know we really need to think about the impact that that has um as we balance um our educational needs our core core services and uh the expenses associated with that against some of these more um um ancillary programs that we offer which are wonderful if you can if you can do that but not necessarily CTO our mission so uh so that's why beep and base and then next year we would look at uh staff material fees inter murals uh at the middle or extr murals at the middle school and Athletics and the use of facilities and that might be a heavy lift uh to have all of those in one year because uh Athletics and extra murals is is huge uh so is our material fee program and use of facilities those are are some really big uh um and involved programs so that might be too much for one year um but I know that we uh the three material fees um as well as use of facilities we've kind of committed to looking at next year and I would like to look at Middle School extra murals and Athletics at the same time and then in 28 uh Food Service the summer school programs and then the tapen uh Green Restaurant um what we charge there uh to to folks that uh enjoy uh the wonderful food the kids are preparing so so that that was my thought of course we you have academic testing fees and those um are just really pass through pass through from the college board so we we would set that we can't set them at this time of year um and then also in the past you've had Visual Arts and career and tech ed and fees that you charge and you can't charge fees for kids to participate in a core um course that's being offered in your schools so so I can get my $40 back so next year we're not because the budget was built last year um uh before I realized that we were charging fees for this um we we decided that we would uh keep the fees for the current year but as we build the budget next year we've got to build those expenses into to our base budget so not this year next year can you remind us I don't I don't think those had huge budgets I want to say like that was maybe less than $100,000 between the two of them am I remembering right yes it's less than that okay I think one was 40 I I was looking at that earlier today but H recollection on the Fly is not oh here we go um I don't know what we'll take in this year but I know when we did the analysis last year it was uh 20,800 was what we anticipated for fee receipts from Visual Arts and 26,400 from career and uh Tech education so yeah uh 46 47,000 between them okay okay okay so I I don't know how you feel about that uh um rotation if that makes sense if people have thoughts or an interest in moving these around a little bit Carolyn go ahead sorry if I missed this Susan um the very the second to last one use of facilities is that just that sort of like the general stuff that Mariah was talking about before yes and does that include um we don't charge nonprofits that use space in our buildings where we don't put those out through the the central register for example like the bef I think steps to success they have space in school buildings that for their off offices but those are I think they're free is that something that gets looked at uh we has a process those are separate from this yeah they're not they're not the same as this it's not just like those it's like some PTO or you know there spaces where they have there are some rooms and I think those are supposed to be I don't know there were some sort of other research you had found on that but that's that's separate from these facility user fees right we have but I will say that there's a parallel in that um essentially entities whose entire purpose is to support the Brooklyn Public Schools and who are nonprofits and all of their profits go back into supporting the Brooklyn Public Schools like the PTO the pto's can rent space at a zero% rate too because essentially it's just taking money and putting it from one pocket into the other because the PTO would be paying rent for something that would mean that that money is not going to the school it's all um when nonprofits that's the rational behind that is that the nonprofits strictly devoted to PSB um are not being charged rent um anyway it is not included Susan I think that the schedule is is reasonable I I feel concerned about next year for the same reasons that you do um on on the other hand um and and one possibility is we could talk to the materials Fason um and if you wanted to for example defer materials fee another year to make it more balanced perhaps they would be comfortable with that as well um I think that'd be great okay I can reach out to them and and check in on that because I just think that like the facilities and Athletics like they they're all of those like you said they're just incredibly complex to um to figure out what's going on so so perhaps that's a a good way to approach that and I do think it would be much more balanced if materials fee moved out a year and we were to continue what we have been doing which is essentially a small cost of living adjustment but not the full analysis of the of the of the calculation yeah um Carla um it just crossed my mind the recreation department uses school facilities correct and and my understanding was that there's been an Mo MOA in the works for I don't know how many years has that finally been negotiated and signed no that's some of the what we're discovering and kind of making a a list of all the things that uh you know need to get done but have not been have been delayed for a variety of reasons that has not been um completed but we are aware of that okay and would there be fees involved with that or you don't know at this point I don't know at this point we were just informed about it recently and so we just put in our parking lot lot of things that we have to look into proud parking lot yeah it is a very prowed parking one we might have to you know hire a few of those uh crossing guards it's like the Trader Joe's includ Corner um exactly one at least historically the the the agreement between wreck and the schools was essentially no one was paying for each other's space that was historically the the agreement I don't know where it's going to end up I there and I think there's many things that need to be part of the conversation you know um so but we have not we have not begun a dialogue with them around that so Susan do you need just sort of a general indication or blessing from the Comm of like yes this sounds reasonable plus I'm happy to reach out to the materials F on is that do you like need a vote or how do you want to proceed for this no I just want the consensus that this this is you know the way you'd like to move forward so that I'm not spinning my wheels or or giving you something when you want when you want to take a deep dive into user fees this year and I'm giving you beep so this will be make it a little bit more predictable and help the finance team as well as the data team who would you know likely have to produce some enrollment inform information gives us a you know a little bit of a u a heads up moving forward so yeah if if if you're comfortable with this if you want to vote it that's fine that doesn't have to go before the committee but just kind of a commitment to to doing them in rotation for all the reasons that we've talked about I'm I think I'm comfortable with that I think that um your explanation was really uh thorough and so we can just say that we are informed and I appreciate being informed great um and Val had to jump off she'll be back if we're still going um in about 20 minutes but I'm I think she can comment on it later on um I I do think and our plan is that then at the next meeting we would start to talk about tuition and Bas and I think Bas is a very big conversation and um and putting it under the rubric of fees or like the heading of fees might be a little bit of an oversimplification but we can but that's certainly part of part of the story um so maybe we'll start to talk about that I think that's on our agenda for our next meeting is to start to continue to wait into fees um is that correct yes that's correct go ahead Susan yeah it is um what what I was hoping for like I I have Clarity around on what to provide you for information on be because of the work that we did last year so it's like refreshing that so there's a framework for that there really isn't a framework for Bass and so if I could just get your thoughts about what would be helpful for information um to get the conversation going that would that would be um very beneficial one of the things that I think I would find helpful and I and on this I certainly want to hear from everyone is comparisons because um there's a lot of ways in which many of our programs they're pure comparisons like for example beep people aren't going to go to send their kid to a preschool in Cambridge in the same way that they would in beat bra like there's some things that have Community mobility and some that don't but I think Adult Ed there is a certain aspect of community mobility and um comparison shopping so to the extent that um that you can provide some sort of um neighboring Community comparisons with what Adult Ed cost um to participate I think that that would be helpful and to the extent we can also get not only sort of a sense of their like are they willing to provide or can we glean from public information their revenue and expense model generally that would be helpful as well Revenue expense Staffing like how does this all come together for neighboring communities in a way that it feels like it hasn't come together recently for base okay Sarah go ahead yep that that's what I was going to um to ask is basically that's the way that we figure out what the market will bear and for our fees and so that's the way to go about it and and my concern is that there's for whatever reason our our Revenue model or our expense model is different in some way that that are that we might be um looking at peers who are pricing in a way that we can't afford to match so I just you know there's there's that question in my mind as well and then the if so if we can't why that's the other half of that but yeah I I can get there yeah I can get some I'm sure I can get some basic information one of the questions that I Ponder is is also internal competition and I don't understand I haven't looked at this deeply and you you all as uh folks in the community would would certainly have better Insight than I do but it seems to me like you know base is though it says adult education there is a component that is student enrichment it feels like to me and I wonder uh and Recreation sometimes and I and I guess I don't have Clarity uh about how um how we either compete against in other internal uh um Community groups for you know the same population of of students or or families for similar service so I I I don't know if there's if you can provide me with any clarity about like we have this big enrichment program um those folks rent our buildings which is fantastic um we also have a Rec Department we have base um I just don't I don't think that the M program it because the programs that base offers and is more of a the internal competition so to speak is wreck because they're offering summer programs they're offering vacation programs and they're offering weekend like oneoff classes um and both groups are doing that the enrichment programs that exist tend to be very school specific and they're only offered like after school days for limited periods so it's not they're not vacation programs they're not summer programs they're not weekend programs okay so they just yeah they operate in different time spaces would it be helpful to to maybe see if I can find and provide some information about like what Rec is providing and I think so comparison to what we're providing I'm sure I should be able to get that information yeah I think that would be really helpful okay so we'll get peer neighboring communities you know Revenue expenses Staffing plans um if they do have a program I could maybe look at that um uh what what they're offering um I can get from the rec department what they're offering and and then a list of offerings from our our program can work with Michelle on that and the other thing Susan is I want to differentiate between adult education programs which you are too but like for example an adult might be interested in going to Cambridge for an evening program but um it's unlikely that like a student isn't going to go do a summer program in another town so I think it's like making sense of yeah you know what I mean like the differentiation between like it's like on the student side it's like wreck versus base and then on the and even like I think bass offers music lessons and then Brooklyn music school offers lessons so like but the Bas I'm not really clear on that whole thing so like there's the student programs and then there's the adult programs and the adult programs it Mak sense to Market against the peer communities and the student programs it Mak sense to look at Brookline versus Brooklyn y okay is there anything else um that might be helpful I just don't want to get into the conversation you know and say have have you all say oh geeez you know we can't really move forward with a discussion without X information but you can think about that more I just I'm not sure I agree with Mariah I mean I've taken my kids to other towns for summer stuff all the time but I'm not sure that matters and I'm not really looking to wade into this it sounds like Mariah and Susan can can handle this well I guess it's fine with like you're probably right that people might go to like a nearby town I'm just I guess my point was I was thinking there's no need to go Benchmark like all of the like I wouldn't get like 10 benchmarks of the student programs I guess right like it might be helpful to get one or two I agree with you totally like maybe like Newton and Cambridge or something that are like right next door to us or not whatever you guys think is the best best way to do it I'm sure will be the best way to do it so Carla go ahead um what about the libraries programs are they're too few and far between to be considered in this particular category I don't think they charge do they aren't they all sort of like story hours and one-offs they could be I'm really not not sure I don't think they're completely oneoff because I think they have book groups and poetry readings and so and as for charging I don't know well it's worth looking into I'll ask around I mean yeah I'm sure the library director can tell you if they charge they've got some great programs that's for sure okay well that's helpful thank you um Susan on beep tuition are you going to explore both the beep tuition and the extended day program that we authorize this year for Lynch Center can put that on the list thanks because I know we approved a rate and I have no idea what it was based on I don't either okay good that was kind of done yeah that I wasn't really yeah that was a late addition to the roster yeah so it it it was and I think some of the the conversations around all that were while I was out on leave but I'm at and or Amnesia from medication as a result of the medical leave have a skip or two in my mind so uh okay I will find out more about that um okay I feel like we've talked about this a lot and I as I said I'll go back to the material leaon and and ask about the deferral when you're out um do we have anything else on the agenda I would say under new business I had prepared the information about the community comps oh right yes that's right and um I feel like um and and the other thing I also want to mention is that when we talk about non-aligned compensation there's two group groups that fall within that one group is the again the the salaries for non-aligned staff and um that has not been looked at in I think about four years I think it was 21 when I read the last memo that that was brought forward so some of the work that uh we will do this year is um um a review of salaries for non-aligned positions so when we look at that um you know we identify comparative communities and so doing a little bit of research um I learned that these 10 communities are the ones that have been used here in Brooklyn um in the past so if you if if you look at the last round of negotiation with teachers for example these are the communities that were used um so that that's helpful for me to know uh but curious as I am I like to um have an understanding of you know why these are comps for Brookline there's uh different um ways that comps are identified and I think depending on what you're uh trying to get information about it's important to know uh the value of a of a community's data in comparison to yours so um I did a little little bit of uh digging to see if I could identify where these came from the ones that are in italic came from the desie dart uh Community comps so desie uh uses student Benchmark data um uh uh or uses student demographic data to identify light communities um there's nine for Brookline five of them appear here um and then another way to look at it is uh a community's ability to pay or Community demographics so uh population size um uh you know tax rates property values um household income uh so that's another way to look and see is this community similar to ours or not uh proximity is another way that um comps can be um identified and proximity is super important to Brookline because it's really hard to get here and so when we're looking at market and being competitive um especially when it when it's salaries um you know you have to factor in people's ability to travel here I have um a very painful commute to get Brook line so I know this firsthand and it's not something that in the long run would be sustain sustainable for most people and so looking at proximity or those communities that are contiguous to you is also another uh Factor because you want to you want to be you know um attractive and you know bright and up and cominging teachers and Pa professionals or even custodians you know are not going to be traveling up to the NorthShore for a job right they're they're going to try to stay local so making sure that we're competitive with our surrounding communities is important it looks like a couple of these that were uh selected are that um um and then uh the last one is performance sometimes you want to look at you know um communities that you aspire to be like or that you feel are um comparable to you academically and um so those are usually the four ways that um you um you know the four four different ways you look at um is a is is a community or School District comparable to us so I've provided you with with on these uh communities in Brookline um the dart data um is right off the Desi website now it's not it's it's not as Diane said um it's not last year's data right it lags a year or two but it lags a year or two for everybody so when we're looking at comps and comparisons here um then that's it's great that the data um is from the same time uh time space and sequence that that that ours is being gathered and reported so I I share this with you um again in italics are our are uh are the five communities that desie has identified as comparable to us and this is the data they use in order to determine that um the enrollment data that is I also included on this uh teachers and this is not all staff I think it gets confusion when um when members of the public go on to the desie website if you don't know uh what the definitions of some of these things are then you might say wow you only have 400 teachers no um uh or 400 staff members that that's not true but this is this is the teachers the certified teachers in our schools um I like to look at student teacher ratio because that tells us um a lot about um well it tells us a lot of different things but um and I also like to look at uh uh Administration and per pup expenses um it this comes into play like as we're looking at bang for the buck I always say analysis that that that we start to look at you know our programs and our outcomes academically and we say you know um you know we're performing far better than Lexing I'm making this up I don't know what you know how can I interrupt one second Betsy can you scroll down so Brooklyn's visible on the bottom of the second table like make it so both tables are visible go back up a little more just so that we there we go thank you yeah um so if if uh academically uh we per outperform Lexington and we're paying more peral then you say okay is is that uh performance um related to some other Factor like our student teacher ratios um does it have something to do with um you know U our administrative structure in comparison to them so once I get that information which I've talked to jod about for these commun ities then we'll be able to um make a do a little more sense making out of the data and how one might relate to the other for this uh this current um round of looking at um salary comps for non-aligned as well as um uh as we're evaluating programs and um as I said I call it bang for the buck maybe that's a crude way to look at it but um what is value right yeah what is the value of of what we're offering and what's the difference between what we're offering uh when we see something that's attractive to us um what are they doing differently and let's try to drill down on that so any that's why I find comps to be very valuable and comps shouldn't change and you shouldn't have comp conversations when you're in the middle or just starting your negotiation process it really should be I think a little bit more empirical when you when you um identify what they are know why that they're they comps and why we're using them because um it's it's easy to cherry pick and I'm not a cherry picker um because and then once you identify what these comps are for you if if we stay with these um great I don't have you know skin in the game I have some ideas as I'm looking through it as is this really a comp and why do we have it but um can I ask um what were the four communities identified by desie that aren't in our standard or historical compest we use do you remember um I can tell you uh chumford was one of them which was surprising I think Milton um I can I can pull that up pretty quick give me a second and then my follow-up question is um would you recommend adding those or any other um and or subtracting any of the ones we have I can offer some let me let me answer let me get to your first question sure I have to bring up a spreadsheet okay so the others were Melrose Milton NAIC chelsford Milton Melrose na yep Na's here though isn't it oh no nm's here sorry need's here yeah yep so uh yeah so those were the ones that were and that's strictly by um this enrollment demographic which is in the first thing so your enrollment size the percentage low income um uh students with disabilities and elll percentages that's that's that's the sole basis of of how they come up with that some of them as I look because I yeah so I look at more than one I never think you should look at just you know one uh through one lens when you're trying to evaluate um and assess um information I like to look at multiple measures so do I got that off of the do website um also these These are links and I don't know if they're active in the PDF or not but I can certainly provide the links where you find this information um and I also put the date that I pulled it because when they do update it um you know the data that's on the website obviously would be different than the information that I'm sharing with you here so now I have to find you back your second question Mariah was would you add any or subract yeah so some Impressions um Boston is not really comparable they're next to us but when you're looking at salary comps um you might want to keep an eye to what they're doing there but it's 46,000 students of course your administrative staff is going to be paid accordingly you know so um they're always going to be paid far more than anybody else in the state um and when you look at the demographic data here not only just within enrollment but the percentage uh of low income is it's it's just not comparable to us that their their their student population doesn't demographics don't look similar um and then when you look at if you go down to the do data uh that really doesn't look similar you know to what I would consider to be similar to us you know um so I wouldn't I if I'm looking at it I I i' maybe provide the information but I wouldn't include it as as a legitimate comp when we're looking at uh market conditions um but you want to keep an eye to it because we do recruit people from Boston um so uh so it's important to know you know what's out there and where they're at Cambridge is another one there are aspects like the size of the student population is similar but when you look at um like lwi income factors and the others I I can see why they don't show up as a desie dart comp for us when I look down at the do data um you know a significantly larger population almost double the size of Brookline um and some of the other factors when you're looking at like tax rate and um household income and average tax bill there's a relationship between those and so um i' like to look at that I'd like to look at that though in relation to uh uh property value and median household income I wasn't able to find median household income for these communities that was of the same time frame and so I'd have to do some more digging but it that's really helpful it's like I call it the ability to pay of a community um and when you're looking at um you know the level of taxing and capacity um I I always find that to be helpful just to identify if it's similar not because we should aspire to be like them and have their same tax rate don't misunderstand me it's just to see to what degree they are comparable to us and uh so what when I look at that I would say Boston Cambridge we should keep an eye to but I would not include it in an average because they're not similar enough um to I I don't believe I would I would consider them to be comparable but but important because they're so close to us um when I'm looking at like I can see why Needum would be included I I I can I can say okay I see some similarities there they're smaller but I can see when we're looking at average uh Family household value um you know the per capita income and stuff I can see some factors there that would would would suggest and I'm going to guess when we look at the academic data maybe there's some similarities there too but I don't know yet um what the one that is like a real like W's not close to us there is some similarity there um the one that I don't see how it can be a compant anyway right now is Winchester I just I don't we wouldn't recruit from Winchester they're too far away um I don't see how that's aomp so if we were going to if if if anything I would I would put another Community that's in close proximity to us because of because they're part of the market we would be you know trying to poach or recruit staff out of for um uh Winchester wouldn't be one of those so those are my Impressions um I'll I I I I I don't I don't know if anybody here has been part of the dialogue before on why Winchester would be included but I don't see that as being similar thank you Susan I have a followup but I'll hold and let Harry go ahead yeah I just wanted to point out that if you're looking at tax rates and and value of the homes Boston Cambridge Brookline and Somerville if it were there are the three localities that have rather substantial residential exemptions whereas none of these other o other towns do so that's going to kind of skew your outlook a little bit where if you're not quite comparing Apples to Apples with those uh those towns thank you thanks Harry um Susan if you were to tiar the um what would you call the communities like Boston and Cambridge which you mentioned or how would you present them alongside these other ones what do you call them if you don't call them comps just this is just a terminology question for my own understanding yeah um maybe maybe yeah you could say tier 2 comps or something like that tier two communities um or or you can yeah I Boston for sure I wouldn't include when when comparing uh at all because like I said it doesn't matter what we look at it's not going to be even when I look at what they're paying it's it's it's just a different animal um entirely so I I would say at least those two I would pull out but keep the data and keep an eye on it I think it would be helpful to have a comer to that's close in proximity because that's who we' recruit from it's it's hard to get here it's a huge problem and um when we're looking at salary data and we're looking at benefits I I just think that you know that salary is not the only thing working conditions are hugely important and and that's where the commute part comes into play so from that perspective niic and Milton on the desie one seem more logical to me yes not chelsford chord not chumford I can't remember was it was chelsford NAC Milton and Melrose and not Melrose either Melrose is next to Winchester that feels like a big Hall exactly exactly so I I can see why those weren't included um but I think the other ones uh you know are are contenders okay so that's that um I I'm gathering data based on your 10 comps but you know for me it's like you know when I see Boston on there I'm like I don't you know it's going to skew the the averages in a way that's I don't know that it's beneficial and really tells us whether we're being competitive or not so are you in this conversation are you looking for guidance from the committee members of like yes ad NAC Milton or whatever um yes remove Boston Cambridge or are you just sort of giving us this background so that when we see this next time we have a little bit more information and and you'll decide whether or not you want to add or how to present the information yeah I think I think for one if there's some consensus about having Boston and Cambridge at least be just uh we can call them you know tier two or something like that uh uh communities to us and pulling that out so I'm not giving you averages include include information I'll give you the information but uh but not includeed in like the averages that I'm looking at I think that there's a distinction that we sometimes talk about in that they're like um a B communities but they're not really pure communities right there's a physical adjacency that but that's the thing that we have in common with them is a border not other characteristics and so maybe that's the way to frame it but yes I would agree with pulling them out or just differentiating them yeah I'm comfortable with that I'd also just like to say that I really approve of the way that you're looking at this the way that you're trying to make the decision and so I feel actually like you're better informed than I am but I would leave o like an opening like Mariah said to sometimes say like adjacent communities are different than comp communities and I would allow yourself to select when you're talking about different things different communities I think that that's completely fine yeah the Winchester one is one I just that's the other one those three the others you know I could make some argument that that there's some similar characteristics here and there but I don't see Winchester as being valuable to the analysis that we would be doing in comparing on any level unless I see with the incast data that they they are somehow a community we would aspire to be like from uh a learning outcome perspective and so I would I would hold off final judgment until I get the rest of the data um and certainly your thoughts like Milton um you know we could lean more heavily on that Milton's close enough you could commute from I think um absolutely yeah right yeah um Margaret commutes from Milton she lives in Milton yeah yeah people like Matt did I know I know a couple of people that I know administratively that have lived in M um Milton so I I think that's reasonable um do you think you could add Milton and NAIC in and then get your mcast data too and then we could all look at it and make a final yeah decision okay I'm happy to do that but I do if I am going to give you some comp information at the next meeting um I would want to know who I'm pulling from but I we can do that I mean there's no rush as long as we have the salary guides set by December when I build the Staffing roster for next year then I'm fine with that if you're fine with that I I think this is valuable because next year you're going to go into negotiations with teachers and to be able to have a rationale behind why we're using the comps that we're using and then use it consistently then then you know when I retire and somebody else sits in the seat then there's there's it's grounded in something and you should keep your comps once you really establish who they are you should keep your comps as long as as long as it's relative you know and I think that in Massachusetts communities don't change significantly that quickly um and then you're able to start to look at like profiles and Trends across across your comp communities and and it it becomes more meaningful over time so um anyways this I'm geeking out on you and I um sounds good um I think we've got Carol and then Carolyn and then I think we'll wrap up just a quick comment our former Town Administrator previously worked at Winchester before he came here and I used to commute up to Winchester regularly so just because of its distance and lack of adjacency I would not uh discounted as a potential comp um there's a lot of things about Winchester on the surface that remind me of of Brook line but I I I think you could potentially have people who would be interested in in um commuting to both Winchester and to Brook line thanks Carol Carolyn um thanks for all this Susan this is fun um the only thing I'm not entirely clear on in how you're thinking about this and it doesn't tremendously matter but I just thought I'd mention it to show you that I'm listening um I think you're talking so you're talking about potential recruits and I hear you talking about working whether these are comparable towns to work in and then I also hear you talking about living in the place and commuting from the place which sounds like there's sort of an underlying assumption that I don't know yeah so that like are you thinking about teachers who live in Milton or that Milton would be a comparable place to to work because if you're only talking about commuting I'm not and you're not talking about recruting necessarily people who necessarily live in these places then I think the adjacency matters a little bit less right like somebody could be working in Winchester and live in Brooklyn which and so then it is a and and if it's a comp in terms of as a workplace then the adjacency doesn't matter as much if that makes sense if I'm following what you're talking about yeah I I'm talking about a I'm I'm um sharing thoughts and Impressions so uh and so what I would say is that Milton is a comp identified by desie and and yep Milton is also in fairly close proximity which is another measure yep you consider when looking at C got it got it you see what I'm saying so it's like it's the and both of those two factors yeah right right yep and so in that case I would agree I think with Carol right that Winchester is probably going to show up as a similar type of community or a similar type of school district yeah yeah and that's that's the that's the part that I haven't done so for me if it's a comp it's not just like looking through one lens and saying it's comp because of this it's like it's an and both it's this and it's that so okay I can buy that not just because of this one factor that I'm looking at okay it's this and it's close proximity or it's this and it's also you know when you look at do data you can see some Community characteristics that are similar so that that's that's that's just how I like to approach it um not not one or the other but like there's more than one factor that yeah I met a today I met a teacher today at r which is would be so interesting in your in your lens so he's this is his second year or First full year in Brooklyn he was working in Southboro he was living in Watertown so when he started Living in working in Brooklyn that was better now he's bought a house far away and the commute is terrible but of course he's still loves it because we're great and he loves his job so sort of all of those things were were in the mix for that young man yeah and and it and it it's it's a lot right it's you know if you have young children and you have a long commute you know then that factors into it because if you if you're trying to get to your back home because a kid needs you um then along commute is problematic and I know that just anecdotally when I look at some of the exiting um it was a result of the commute so it's something that I really am paying attention to and um when we put together the exit survey which we'll use you know this this year this next season then we'll have some insight into what factors um are leading people to um consider employment outside of Brookline um so you know I think we'll start to kind of build our story and our better understanding as we go along but thank you thanks for the analysis Susan yes really really helpful to think about these things and as you say to think about them not when we're in the middle of negotiations but well in advance because it's really about really thinking about this outside of that outside of that Arena so um okay I think we're going to wrap up thank you all for the scintillating discussion thank you Betsy um and have a wonderful night y good night everybody good night bye bye