##VIDEO ID:DbERM7lBmxA## okay everyone we're going to go ahead and get [Music] started good evening everyone today is August 20th 2024 it is 6:02 PM we're at the city Cape Canaveral city council regular meeting here at City Hall council chambers located at 100 pulk Avenue in Cape canaval Florida I call this meeting to order council member Jackson would you please lead us in the pledge I PL to the flag United States of to the for stands Nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you very much thank you Council for being here City staff and all of the community coming together and those of you who are listening online city clerk would you please call the role council member Davis here council member Jackson here mayor protim Kellum here mayor Morrison here council member Willis here okay Council so this time we are the approval of agenda as written or with amendments Mr Mayor yes council member Willis I'd like to move item one um to later in the evening to items for Action okay I item number one yes between 12 and 13 please we have item number one after 12 and before 13 so the last or the first item for Action basically yes sir Council just before we uh discuss that are there any other changes that we would like to see make sure we can see the whole playing field here hearing none do we have an issue with with moving that if not can can I get clarification what was that again yes about a motion make a motion to approve the agenda as written with the exception of item one being moved to uh a spot between items 12 and 13 I'll second got a motion by council member Willis a second by council member Davis city clerk did that between 12 and 13 okay got it it would be the first item for Action right after the public hearing any further discussion Council I don't my discussion is I don't have a problem with that I think that's fine okay city clerk Council M Davis four council member Jackson four mayor protim Cullum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis four motion passes 5 so uh the post or the item number one will take up first item for action after item number 12 public hearing which brings us uh to the presentation and interviews portion of the meeting the first uh presid presentation of proclamation here tonight is for National Suicide Prevention month and I believe we have um couple here with us uh Miss Jenny gleon and Lisa kirmar you two here I'll come forward read the proclamation and at the end if you'd like a few words you're more than happy to do that with us so thank you this is an official proclamation of the City of Cape canabra Florida whereas September is designated as National Suicide Prevention month as recognized by the National Association of mental illness and whereas many Health officials and community leaders locally State and nationally understand that mental illness is a significant issue of concern particularly among Our Youth and whereas we realize that to address mental health issues requires more open and honest discussions about mental health and whereas one major hurdle is removing the stigma attached to mental health treatment and discussion and whereas individuals businesses or organizations public officials and many others recognize the importance of emotional health now therefore I Wes Morrison mayor of the City of Cape canaval Florida do hereby proclaim the month of September 2024 as National Suicide Prevention month in the City of Cape canaval affirming the city supports efforts on the Space Coast to provide education and resources for mental health problems and that the City will encourage a positive effort towards those with mental health issues to seek the help of a family member friend colleague Andor licensed mental health professional to assist them in times of need signed and sealed this 20th day of August 2024 thank you if you'd like to come forward we can take a photo with the proclamation [Applause] I just want to thank you uh for recognizing the importance of suicide awareness and the need for resources to be readily available we really appreciate that it's so very important we would like to invite you all to attend our um matter day on Saturday September 21st this is the third annual one please visit our website doit for Hunter and come out and enjoy the event thank you so much thank you Mr Mayor yes sir would you would you mind repeating the date and time and where it would be it's September 21st from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock the main Hub will be at merid Island high school but we have lots of um businesses and schools that will be participating around the community and I do believe we have some Coco Beach and Cape Canaveral that'll be participating too as places to stop by um and visit thank you okay and thank you for what you do appreciate it you okay Council we now have a couple of interviews for the recommended applicants for the appointment to the culture and Leisure Services Board first name I have here Mr Brad prel Brad if you're here please come forward our City attorney have a few questions for you um hi I have a I have a okay so I'm the lead off you're the lead off hitter and um we we ask you um or I ask just two questions and then the council will will take over and you can have your discussion is just the all the information in your application is true and correct yes okay and then please State for the board why you would like to serve on this board well I'm winding down my professional career uh so I figured I'll be very tired in trimming habiscus bushes and rubber TRS um I do believe uh the bo uh the city lack of a better term wck department and Leisure Services is on the right track um I have I want everyone to know I have no skin in this game I don't don't play tennis I don't play pickle ball uh I don't do the 5K run I don't run properties I don't manage properties and I have no local businesses or business in the City of Cape canaval or the surrounding areas um I do believe the department needs a much stronger mission statement I can't really find one uh perhaps there is uh but our department must in my opinion not only focus on physical activities but we need to focus on more Cultural Arts such as theater um excuse me uh theater uh singing painting in the cape Center what's going on there is a great start we need to bring as a recreational Leisure and art Department more young people into our activities the reason being if you look at what's going on in our neighborhood SpaceX blue origin other space related Industries they're bringing in young families young families is the growth of a community young families will also save our elementary school the growth of we have three four major recreational brick and mortar locations one is the C5 Center which is brand new which is a shining star as you discussed in the previous meeting Nancy Hansen she's a bit sad we need a little help okay but as it also was stated that can be made a shining star the growth as I said in the community is involving young families it's hard young families are busy being young they have kids they have jobs they have side hustles but that will be the growth of Cape canaval the Future Vision growth of Cape canaval is not short-term vacation rentals airbnbs verbos whatever you want to call that that's shortterm not long-term and I want to be here for the long-term success of the City of Cape canaville City attorney any further questions from you I too Brad first I want to say thank you for your willingness step up and serve in this capacity thank you Council any questions for Mr pral no I just want to say thank you I'll be I think you'll be an asset thank you Mr pale you've attended many things that uh I've put on and you're very active in the community and I really appreciate your willingness to serve thank you very much thank you sir I I have no questions but thank you for coming forward and being willing to work with our community and get us going with more activities and handle things in that department and working on that board thank you so much thank you ma'am Brad thank you for being here thank you for your love for our city I like your ideas of a mission statement and to attract younger people I think you'll be a real asset to the board thank you thank you thank you Brad and your ideas are good you have a lot of them and I appreciate them because there through that we've seen some wonderful things happen in the city with it the the tree issues that we've went through the splash pad being open every day and those successes uh with everybody's it took many hands to get there but as a citizen to step up and speak on those it's really inspiring for for me and for all who are watching so thank you for your willingness to do that and serve on this board well thank you thank you any other questions I don't think so okay thank you well as they say in home in Office Depot easy the Easy Button I thought that was [Laughter] Staples the next one that I have here one second Miss Tina Freeman Ina come on forward City attorney I'll ask you some questions as well good evening same two questions all the information and your application is true and correct to the best of your knowledge yes okay and please State for the council why you would like to serve on this board um I've been um a property owner here since 1996 my family and I and um I've lived here full-time permanently for 14 years and I feel very invested in this community and I like to be involved um I attend um the City Council meetings when I can and um do what I can within the city and I just wanted to do more now that I'm retired well semi-retired I have a little part-time job but other than that um my children are have moved away and I'm an empty nester so I thought you know to invest in the community is just so important and and I I love this this place so much so that's why I volunteered to serve thank you same thing here Council any questions for Miss Freeman I'll say the same thank you very much for your willingness to to do this and step up and and help make our community better no particular order oh thank you thank you for your willingness and appreciate uh your uh energy and good luck oh thanks I mean I don't have an agenda I've served on several working boards previously and um I've just found that you know I really want to build a collaboration you know between the city the city council the city employees in the city council as well as the city and the community and the voters and the residents here and I feel that's really important is to build that collaboration so that we could have you know a win-win on both sides but also too I find that I enjoy being a team player um in jobs that I've um had experience in previous viously um I enjoyed working on a team and so I feel like I could be a good team player and um and I'd like to build like I said a win-win for everybody thank you Tina for being here and I Your Enthusiasm is is awesome and um you know I like the idea of collaboration and we you know we count a lot on our boards to bring us ideas and and different things that have to happen or need to happen in our city so I appreciate that thank you yeah having served on our our association board for eight years you have to be a good listener and um yeah you've got to find some common ground and um and and bring forth and follow through is so important y thank you council member Davis or Jackson I have a couple questions I'm just confused um the last time you were here at Council I believe it was in March you indicated that you had put in your application a week prior and that the city nobody from the city staff had called you do you know exactly when I mean the meeting was March 19th when exactly did you put your application in God I can't remember exactly that far back I mean I could go look through my computer but it was a week prior um yeah I think it was a week prior because um I didn't hear about it until I went to the um board meeting meeting that you had where you honored all the advisory boards and everything and that's when I heard about the opening so I came home after that and started putting in my application so whenever that um that event was at the Rison that's when I heard about the opening okay because um it looks here that it your application was actually received a day before the meeting so I'm kind of confused because you were saying staff had not called you well they didn't have your appliation to call you oh well I dropped it off here in person so um at the window here so that was Friday and so it was dated that you received it on the Monday the 18th the day before the meeting so there was no way that it could have been a week ahead of time and another question that I well I guess I meant the week it was the week before the meeting so okay another question I'm kind of um confused about at that same meeting uh you had mentioned that to this counc that a previous council member Angela Raymond had called you stupid you and a group of people as stupid right meeting right well I've can you tell me when that was um gosh it was probably 20 I want to say 2019 2020 when we were all I can tell you what the um what was happening is that um we were discussing whether or not a survey should go out to the community and um to to get a feeling for um something that we were discussing at the time and so um councilman Morrison he was councilman at the time had brought up about you know doing a survey and um at that time um I guess um councilwoman Raymond got very upset about spending the money for a survey and referred to the voters and the people here as being stupid and I mean those of us who were here in the audience I mean we kind of took that personally because there was a lot of you know eye rolling and huffing and puffing and things like that going on that were kind of offensive that's what I was referring to was that evening that we were having the discussion about the survey well I've gone back and I've looked at several numerous City Council meetings and I have never found that being said on the dis the one thing that was located was um in 2018 which would be similar to the time frame was it was a mentioned in a evaluation of the city manager at the time so I I unless you can specify when I could not find through all the other meetings I could not find where that was said like I said I think I believe it was 2019 when we were discussing like I said the survey doing a survey man the citizens and um there was several of us who were for it but then um you know okay that we had one city councilman who was very vocal against it and um so there was a lot of back and forth at that point I'll see if I can find it because I didn't I did not find the answerd thank you any other questions council member Davis no I'm fine thank you you council member Jackson hello Miss Freeman um tell us what you bring to this board um like I said I I bring experience for one I've worked um it at several places I've worked in the media with CBS um I've worked with ad agencies and like I said I've been a team player and I've always work found that I enjoy working together on a team and finding you know cooperation and collaboration as being very important and trying to find a win-win for both sides and um I feel like I'm a good listener and I follow through and that's been you know my passion I'm a planner and um like I said I've worked on I've been on several boards in which they were a working board which it wasn't a kind of thing where you just show up and voted and you left it was a working board and we were called upon to do a lot of things from fundraising you know to um being very active um in the in the community um I worked for a children's uh emergency shelter and um was served on that board and got that started so um I feel like I'm one of those people who jump in with both feet and um and I'm definitely one who is a planner where whether it's strategically financially budgets I know all about I've done our budget for our complex for8 years years um and I feel like I can you know do the job that's required of me um definitely like I said being a team player is very important right um and so as I look at U Mr perel's statement about um having and needing a mission statement and um you know making sure that we have youth coming into our city and expanding those opportunities for them um and look at your marketing so you've done marketing plans you've done Communications and um PR and advertising that's correct I've got a master's degree in Communications um as well as a bachelor's from the University of Florida and um and I've used that in my career and um so I'm very well equipped as far as putting together marketing plans and and strategies um as well as you have to have a budget for those things AB so yes sharpening my pencil and and getting down to brast tax very good um thank you for coming and and for offering your service and everything and I'll pass questioning to you mayor thank you Tina I just want to say thank you I know knowing you through the community from the very beginning of sort of uh serving the public and you have always been serving the public like Brad in in a way that you're out you're about your comment you get involved you come to meetings and so I think you bring a healthy professional background and perspective that's going to help and I look forward to uh all you're going to be able to bring to make Gabe canaval better so thank you thank you thanks thank you okay so those are the two interviews uh that we have the other two um are we yes I think all at once um Virginia Scott come on forward yes please for the for the alternates as well four totals the alternate I think one moment council member Willis excuse me but didn't we just find out that there was another vacancy yes the board hasn't had a chance to interview for that vacancy yet okay all right thank you hi hi Scott um two questions all the information uh in your application true and correct to the best of your knowledge yes and please explain to the council why you would like to serve on this board I have been coming to the Cape Canaveral area since about 1993 I lived in Orlando and worked in Orlando for a number of years and lived actually in Springs worked in Orlando and um I would pull my camper over to Jetty Park and I had a little popup camper that I'd pull over there and my friends would come and with our kids and we' be at Jetty Park many weekends and then a few of my friends had bought condos or houses over here through the years and then I worked um near UCF and we had people who lived over here especially well merid Island too but um they would come over from this area and we would come visit them and I bought a condo here in 2012 was the first one and then another one in 2014 and I have been coming back to the condo regularly but we moved back in 2020 when Co hit because we had to work from home at that time we were in Texas for a few years so I saw a lot of changes during that time period And I think what everybody has been doing is great and I just think I have the opportunity to give some of my uh talents um to the city I'd like to help out if I can um and that's my motivation I think it's really changed so much in the past 10 years even um in it such a great way in the park um you know what's been going on with um you know even the crosswalk area is and and the the Friday Fest it's just you know a lot of really nice small town things but yet a lot of sophistication lately coming to KI thank you council members any questions for Miss Virginia Scott Mr Mayor yes sir M Scott I know you're designated as the alternate role and I know that uh an alternate has to keep up with everything almost as much as anybody who is sitting on the the deis so I appreciate your willingness to put in the work without necessarily being the face of it all the time so thank you very much okay member Davis I'm curious you're involved with a foster parents Association that's great in Texas yeah we were we were foster parents also and we adopted a little boy who we fostered um when he was we got him when he was eight we could adopt him when he was 10 I have no other questions I was gonna say thank you may I make yes I in the past I've done um charity events where we're collecting items for foster children because they they don't have a whole lot to move from place to place so I would love to reach out to you after this and enlist your assistance okay thank you that was that's where my part is you know the I was a guardian at lium you know when I was in Orlando that was my thing you know that was my where I where where I felt I could do the most good so no then I did in Texas we did the um they have uh it's it's kind of like a guardian ad Li but it's it's you don't have to be a you don't have to be a member of the bar you can be a citizen to be a guardian in Texas so that's you know that's I've been doing it since 19 1990 probably six or seven thanks thank you is anybody else have any I'm gonna check council member Jackson um I just want to thank you for for offering and stepping up to work with us here in the city and what a lovely thing what a kind heart you have to but I do play sports I am I am I do go to the community right right well we appreciate that too and so but wonderful things you're doing and thank you for looking at serving your community may protim yes I just wanted to say thank you for wanting to get involved in our city and it's a awesome little city and um we look forward to you being all an alternate and I think it's great that we've decided to do the alternate this year um so we always have a board you know that can meet and make decisions and send us ideas so thank you so much want to Echo what everyone said thank you for stepping up to serve a look forward to all that you're gonna bring to help improve our community thank you Virginia m Mr James stobby come on forward last certainly not least City attorney good evening all the all the information in your application is true and correct to the best of your knowledge yes it is and please explain to the council what why you would like to serve on the culture and Leisure Services Board well I um I'm retired and I lived here for a while now and I love this area area I use a lot of the facilities here the uh Nancy Hansen and C5 and spend a lot of time in the Parks and the beach and ride my bike everywhere around here and I really like it a lot I do see that there's uh some places that could use some help and I would like to make this community better instead of just sitting back and complaining about the problems I'd rather get involved and see if we can be part of the solution instead done um so I'm I will confess I have a a serious addiction to pickle ball and I'm I'm part of the 12-step program right now to try to get through that but I spent a lot of time there's a huge uh pickleball community in Nancy Hansen uh the last time we had a Christmas party there were about a hundred people in that community and the facilities are just uh deteriorating rapidly um I'm part of a of a large organization called the Florida pickleball League where teams come in from other communities and one team came in to play against us and they looked and they said these are the worst pickleball courts we've ever played on and we had no response because we played at all their facilities and they were right these are the worst facilities of all the ones that we play against play with other places so it needs a lot of work and um I would love to to see not just that place uh you know improved but I'd like to see the entire Community just get better and better um so I was here when they presented a plan for uh completely redoing this area with with new courts and new the whole area being red redone and it's fabulous plan I'd love to see that happened uh and so if I can be on the board side of it and try to move these things forward then um I I would rather do that than just sit back and watch thank you any questions we can go the other way may Pro Tim you want to go first oh yes I I'm glad you're here I'm glad you're a pickle ball Enthusiast and um we do need you know some guidance and information and ideas for that area um so we're looking forward to you being all an alternate and being part of our city thank you thank you member Jackson well I like his um I like your government and commercial contracts negotiator that's always helpful you know anytime anytime you have that let me make sure I'm looking at the right yeah I'm confused by that myself I am that was Virginia I'm sorry aren't you glad you have that sorry about that ring a bell at all doesn't ring a bell at all well I'm happy that you're a pickle ball player because we've got tennis and we've got the pickle ball players that are and the courts were full of them the other day when I was out there so um and it's wonderful that you are looking at wanting to to volunteer and work with our community and we look forward to working with you so thank you so much for stamping up thank you ccil member Willis Mr stobby thank you than you for your volunteerism as I mentioned to miss Scott you're going to have to keep up with everything just as if you were sitting on the de and I I hope that you uh will provide input and uh I hope you're not one of those pickle Ballers that grows fangs gr fangs yeah well I I'll tell you the other side of it I played tennis my entire life and I love tennis and so I do understand the it's kind of like sheep farmers and cattle farmers they they have there's a lot of contention there it's it's not NE doesn't have to be and I I would like to see uh I'd like to contribute to kind of bringing some peace between these two groups yeah well I didn't mean to imply that there was not easy easy I didn't mean to imply that there was tension between the two groups even though there might be but i' I've watched some pickle Ballers out there and they they tend to get pretty aggressive up up near the net and I know that's unfortunately that was the kind of tennis player I was when and that usually meant I made a lot more mistakes but welcome and thank you yeah that happens a lot with pickle ball and U yeah some people are overly competitive yeah council member Davis no I think it's funny that you say with the tensions and stuff so maybe you can help us out but I look forward to hearing your ideas and your you know to move forward with the city so thank you thank you appreciate it stby thank you very much for your willingness to step up L to hearing some of your comments there and uh bringing that perspective on your uh as an alternate and and even more involved in the city uh I look forward to to connecting with you at some point if we can as well and and uh appreciate everything that you're doing to help make Community better thank you appreciate that thank you thank you okay that completes the interview portion of the meeting we are at the public participation portion of the meeting any member of the public that would like to speak uh we ask that you please fill out a speaker card they look like this in the front please bring it uh forward and we will make sure you're heard and those of you who are listening online we ask that you please raise your hand um after those who have spoke here have a chance we will um go to you uh we have three minutes here on the uh light in front of me once it's green once it goes yellow there's 30 more seconds and when the light goes red we do ask that you wrap it up um in the first card I have here Mr John Benton okay I'm here for my code reduction hearing that you guys don't want to give me you didn't let me defend myself in the code enforcement hearing and you had a deacon come in and testify that I lived in the warehouse and you didn't let me defend myself after he testified he took my money Mr Rands at the very first council meeting that I came to and I told him this is what happened he said John I know you don't live in the warehouse you live on Thailand and we're going to give you that code reduction hearing well he changed his mind and you wouldn't tell me why well I was in that warehouse and I was in there and I was sending the email to judge rainwater because she helped me with some pet I was up there in Virginia and she got me out of jail up there because I was going to rip her face off because she wanted a name from me and I sent her some emails to thank her and one of the emails was Boy comes from the church to the private school Mr randles must have got information about that email and did all this harasses me living in the warehouse I didn't live in the warehouse cop cop was renting my unit next to me that I own well Boy comes from the church to the private school I didn't say what kind of school but it was a Jew school that's Mr randles he doesn't like somebody coming out on a a Jew school and the teacher at that school when I went there in the 60s he was a preacher unfortunately he was a Baptist that was at a Jew school and when in 71 when he got caught Mrs Weinberger owned the school she was Jewish she fired him she fired him Catholics and Baptists they don't do that when they do that to the school they let those guys go if people want to sit back and knock to Jew he fired him and she changed the name of her school and here in 1993 I was coming forward again on that school I came forward in 93 I couldn't do it in 1971 because I was too young one of my classmates Lan pop that lived in Winter Park committed suicide because of that teacher I hope she hears about this I hope her family hears me in Winter Park know that there is somebody here that remembers her for what that teacher and those boys did to her and I heard that I heard that Angela Raymond's going to run against you from May and I heard all the churches are going to vote you out well let me tell you something I promised Coco Beach up there and the cop that's up there that was renting my warehouse I promised him that I would never ever hold a nasty sign in front of that church if she runs for mayor and she wins I will put her name on a sign and I will break that promise and I will stand in front of that church so everybody at that Catholic Church that votes for Raymond you'll see me with a sign that she wins this election I hope you win by a I hope you win by a landslide Mr Mayor I don't want another person in here that signed a trespass order on me you signed a trespass order on me because I held a sign out here that judge Crawford came out of the courthouse and asked me to come here because you caus problems Tina Freeman yes it's me again um I had a question um from the residents on Filmore Avenue and this may be more of a question for um Mr Morley but um there was a camera that was installed last Friday um on a palm tree on Filmore Avenue and um we were curious as to and we asked the person who was installing it he said he works for the city and the city um was installing this camera on this palm tree on Filmore Avenue and so um we said are they what other streets are they installing cameras on and he said this is the only one so um the residents there they asked me when I come to the city council meeting if I would find out why the camera was installed Tina at this city manager I don't know if you want to if you're able to to I would certainly encourage uh to leave your information with the city clerk and I'll have a staff member get a hold of you I personally don't know I don't have any knowledge about it but we'll certainly let you know what we do though wow that's interesting okay but yeah he said he was a city employee he drove a City truck and installed a camera up on a palm tree and um it overlooks the um Beach Boardwalk the sea grapes the the area on Filmore Avenue yeah and we're the only Street apparently oh we were just wondering why we were so special I have a question if you don't mind is it on the it's by the beach uh access on Filmore Avenue very it's at the very beginning of the beach access it's on a tree on a Tre on a palm tree like at the end of the par parking lot the parking lot ends and there's a palm tree right there and it's on that he even trimmed the palm tree so the camera could have a clear view thank you very much hopefully we can get an answer to that I appreciate it yeah well yeah we'd appreciate it I know people are asking about it thank you and they come to me for some reason thank you I've got a card here from um Adam marara uh the topic is an item I believe we might be taking up Mr M I think it's marara am I saying that correctly do you intend to speak now or would you like to speak on the non-conforming item I believe number 12 is it related to that item on the agenda that's a public hearing item and so if you have if you're time constraint you're I don't have a problem with you speaking now but we will be taking that item up and it is a public hearing item where we'll give another opportunity to speak if you choose totally up to you thank you I'm G to go ahead and FL Tamara mbat good evening everybody um thanks for giving me a chance to talk and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse so I'm going to take one more whack at it and then I'm G to let it go I hope you don't um so we had a special meeting on 5724 to talk about Filmore and um Jackson Avenue and the city manager provided results of this investigation where we were told that on 52 423 Cowboy complained about rocks in the sale when that was impossible since the gravel had not been laid until 65 at the conclusion of that meeting Peg schaer pointed out all the inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the city manager report especially the entry regarding the RO rocks and the sale on 5 2124 at 3 3 hours and 21 minutes into the meeting ran Palmer doubles down on this and continues use the false narrative on the 524 entries including stating that I went into bsna that night and I saw that on 5 2423 a code enforcement officer entered the field notes that cowboy Lewis had complained about the rocks and the Swale and that is impossible it's a lie and I want to know how he is being held accountable on 710 uh 24 there's a special meeting and during public participation once again again I brought this up and I really accuse City staff of planting the evidence regarding the false entry uh 716 during public participation again asked for an explanation of the falsified report so tonight I want the meeting minutes to reflect that for the fourth time on 52 2423 where is the audit Trail to show when how and by whom this entry was made we are all now aware that it was impossible for this to have occurred and do you not guys not realize that your official City public records have been falsified that's a big deal people it's a big deal and I want to know um what you guys are going to do about the finding the answers to that but more importantly um if it happened here at 116 what other all what other records have been falsified ified uh and and as a final note as records to this date that has not been corrected as the records to this date still show that there was a 5 24 23 entry and that did not happen and the record needs to be corrected thank you thank you that item is a discussion item tonight thank you very much okay the next one is Daniel  hey Daniel come on forward right I want to bring want to bring some good news here this evening maybe bring it up little my wife and I have owned the lot 226 pulk over here for a number of years and been trying diligently to uh build our home there and move back into the cap nille area and today we got our building permit approved and I want to shout out to uh Mr Morley and and the staff who worked so diligently in these trying times to get that permit through for us so we can start building and move back into the community thank you welcome back thank you very much city manager and supporting staff and thank you for taking the time to share that good news is always nice to hear the last card is uh Mr Pat Campbell however it looks like nope this is for item 12 as well Mr Campbell I assume you're gonna okay I think that concludes all the physical cards I have here in front of me if anyone intended to speak or I missed your card other than the two uh that will be coming up for item number 12 please raise your hand or just come forward seeing none I'm going online now to see if anyone intends to speak we ask that you please raise your hand okay seeing No Hands raised we'll go ahead and close the public participation portion of the meeting which brings us into if we're looking at the agenda and we did move uh the post item number one out so that really brings us right into the consent agenda we are at 6:51 p.m. and so Council I think if we can get through the consent agenda item and then uh probably take a a a brief break and then come back would that work for everyone okay good deal so consent agenda items are there any items that the council would like to pull I'm just going to go through Mr city manager are there any items that we need to address before we on the consent agenda um we've discussed each one of them with council members and I didn't have any questions and I didn't record any questions or comments from Council Members sir thank you very much I'll make a motion that we approve the consent agenda 2 through 10 I'll second the motion okay got a motion by mayor protim Kellum got a second by council member Willis to approve consent agenda items 2 through 10 any further discussion seeing none city clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis four Al or nine items pass I think that's a record proud of that there's more good news okay well that moved much quicker than I expected I had an anticipation that one might be so do we want to tackle 11 I just want to break the public hearings up or do we want to take a quick break now and then come back um I'm fine with keep rolling good okay this is public hearing portion of the meeting and so with that item number 11 here is a ordinance 17 2024 City attorney ordinance number 17224 in ordinance of the city council of City Cape Canal bavar County Florida amending chapter 82 buildings and building regulations to adopt the local administrative Amendment to the Florida building code to add a new city code section 882-4962 operation into the Cod severability and an effective date mayor this is second and final reading of this ordinance uh there haven't been any changes since first reading uh we've talked about this rather extensively this this ordinance would uh require a building permit for uh roof codings regulated under the floor ATA building code um i''ll be happy to answer any additional questions mayor thank you City attorney Council any technical questions for uh City attorney or city staff before we go to the public and if anyone as we're looking through this does intend to speak I will be uh open it up to the public and for those listening online we are on item number 11 it's a public hearing item on second and final reading amending the Florida building code to add new city code requiring a building permit for roof codings I'll make a motion we adopt ordinance 17- 2024 public hearing well that's fine we can start with the motion okay I just have a quick question and I apologize um city manager I didn't catch it at the time didn't we when on the first hearing we discussed having after a year I believe it was that we would look at the permits and that and determine if in fact they were effective or because I don't see that in here so I just wanted to make sure that was and I missed it when and I we had our meeting so I apologize yes I I recall there being discussion on that point of re-evaluating the effectiveness of this ordinance after year but I don't think that made it into the motion or consensus but we can certainly um make consensus for staff to follow up in in a year for with a report I'm good with the follow up I don't know about the rest of council I think it would be nice to at least get the the metrics on the effectiveness of it yeah so we got a motion by mayor per Tim Callum to adopt the uh ordinances written looking for a second oh second second by council member Willis council member Davis any other questions no I'm good thank you any other discussion this is a public hearing item we're going to go out to the public hear them we'll come back seeing none okay I'm going to go ahead and open it up to the public item number 11 ordinance 17 2024 I don't have any cards for this particular one but if you intend to speak please come forward hello Tina freeming on our uh we have a 30 unit condominium complex and we have a metal roof but just the Elevator Shaft requires uh the roof coating um because you can't put the metal roof on top of the Elevator Shaft so would something that small it would still require a a permit for the roof coating let me city manager mayor yes the way the way this reads that any roof coating work would require a permit even for a small little elevator okay shaft all right well good to know I mean because our we won't be replacing our metal roof for the next 40 50 years but we will be adding a roof coating to the top of Elevator Shaft I mean that doesn't last more than 10 years in this in this sun and heat mayor I have a thought here um when I was building official and I I don't know if it's still that way with Robert but um we we used to exempt roof repairs um like replacing shingles on a house that had just a few shingles that damaged and that was always the rule of thumb was if it's under a square no permits required and a square is defined as 100 square ft so we had an exemption for and this was an administrative exemption and and all the building departments did it I they probably still do that any re-roofing of less than a square is maintenance and it's minor and it didn't require a permit um I'd be happy to um discuss that with Robert if he's okay with that but I I think we could easily amend this to reference minor roof repair under one square is exempt that's a fair point I think Mr M I think that is outstanding idea because there's so many of us I know Wind Jammer and uh the condo I used to own at majestic Bay several of them I mean we have to replace just the elevator you know part of the roof more frequently um only because of the Heat and the Sun that type of thing and then if it does if we just get the smallest little leak that goes into the Elevator Shaft we have a big problem with it the water mixing with the oil the Hydraulics and everything of the Elevator Shaft and so I think that was that's an outstanding idea as far as because it would be a repair right okay any other questions Miss Freeman thank you any other public comments here with us today and anyone listening online who'd like to speak please raise your hand we'll make sure you're heard seeing No Hands raised we'll go ahead and close public comment bring it back here to the council we got a motion to approve it as written made and seconded uh we are discussing my only uh question is is if an exemption or some sort of language is put in and the particular property owner wanted the permit to show certification should we write it in a way where that would be an option if they need some sort of well the the certification would be the the approved building permit as I understand as Miss Jackson brought this to us it was the fact that approved building permits were not documented is the reason why people could get insurance or perhaps a discount on their insurance for the credit of having done a roof coding so the the the final permit approval would be the documentation that I think uh any insurance would hopefully look at could we write it in a way though if they have less than a square Oh I thought you were talking about documentation for insurance yes so if if there is a desire to have an exception for less than one square of liquid applied Roofing coding I would put it under 82 proposed section 82149 as an exception under the state the statement that a building permit is required you put exception roof repairs under 100 square ft but if they chose to want to go through the permitting process is crazy as that sounds because the fees are not they're very low fees they can go through that to make sure that it's reviewed and checked uh could we write it in a way where it gives them an option not anything less than 100 square fet is not subject to permitted but may be performed without a permit what is that um any we could possibly put language in that says exception any liquid applied roof encoding for a project under 100 square fet may be exempt from permitting that get us there would they get a permit if it was less than 100 square F feet the building official if the language were like that the building official May re may not may not um what what's the word I want to say here may exempt the re requirement for a permit okay so you can basically request to opt out of the permitting if you're less than 100 but it would still require some sort of preliminary I don't know if if I don't know that 100 square feet of a job or less would actually be of any benefit to anybody for an insurance perspective thank you yes council member Jackson um I wanted to see if it's appropriate for me to ask Tina a question about this since she was a president of her condo association for a long time she might be able to give us a little bit of um Insight on this I don't have come on forward so miss Freeman when you went to find out about your insurance for your condo complex how do they evaluate your elevator shaft and the roof do do was there anything in your um policy requirements that would that that could cause a problem for no I mean the only thing that was required was that it um had a yearly inspection and and was you know approved yearly inspection that was certified yeah in the yearly inspection was the roof part of that no okay the roof was not part of that and I mean with so many elevator shafts around here they pretty much all have a coated you know ceiling um a roof I mean and because I mean there aren't really shingles you know on a lot of these elevators uh on the roofs nor you know especially not metal either but they usually do I've owned three condos here and um yeah they've all been they usually either membrane or membrane and coating well thank you so much I appreciate that that I wanted to know because if it was an insurance requirement where they're looking at the roof or the inspector is looking at the roof right as a elevator inspector then that would make a difference on this yeah and the only thing they're looking for is that inspection and that certification okay you saw the concern I had really you're I think council member Willis are much better to weigh in on what I was bringing up and well I do believe the new Serge report does require the roof to be inspected and replaced they're they're looking at uh permitting for those so the new sir report is is a lot more stringent I don't I I don't know when your experience was but I know that the s report the Serge requirement for Condominiums now is uh much more involved than it was in the past and it's uh it's quite a problem so I I think the amendment that we're talking about is appropriate but condos need that permitting uh for their insurance reasons so at least that's my experience with our condo association soer Tim council member Davis any questions comments city manager so if if the council so desires we could put in um an amendment under 8249 that just says exception liquid applied Roofing coding of areas of less than 100 square fet you feel that's necessary and we just and I understood as uh council member Willis said with the sge it's really really pretty stringent but could we put is optional that size because optional would mean that they can choose to get it if they need to prove it through their inspection process with their insurance company or the Milestone I don't know if that would work some thoughts on wording that sticking with the 100 square foot issue I believe so yes yes and you can add a sentence that says the property owner May opt out of this permit requirement for roof Cod ings of less than less than um less than or equal to 100 square ft something like that I think you know that 10 x10 area is not is not going to be a full roof anyway so 100 square feet or less probably be better yeah property owner May opt out of this permit requirement for areas 100 square fet or less that's consistent with roofing permits in general like that's that would I think get it done I I think that uh covers anyone that might need it for insurance reasons so okay any further discussion so we've got a motion on the floor a motion to amend the main motion so I'm look looking for a motion to amend the main motion I'll make a motion to amend the main motion to um put in the worded the words the verbage that we just discussed in regards to permits on 100 square feet or 10 by 10 spaces or less I'll second the motion okay got a motion to amend the main motion by council member Davis and a second by council member Willis and that was council member Jackson I'm sorry uh what did I say you said me it's Jackson so Davis Jackson made the motion yeah counc Will is seconded thank you city clerk are we we're clear thank you any further discussion on the motion to the main motion that little Amendment we talked about seeing none call the rooll council member Davis four council member Jackson four mayor Pro Tim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis for motion to the main motion passes 5 O we've already got any further discussion on the main motion seeing none city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis four motion passes 5 mayor we'll get that revised and over to you for Signature and we'll I also record consensus for reporting in 12 months excellent thank you both very much and city clerk good on that one excellent let's it's 7:09 p.m. let's take a uh a break here uh before item number 12 10 minutes and we can come back sounds good 720 thank you okay we'll reconvene at 7 e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e I figured I wasn't expecting him when they said he shot that many times all righty but that I don't I wasn't expecting him either alrighty it is 7:21 we are re call the meeting back to order reconvening here after a brief break and concluding item number 11 public hearing item we're heading into item number 12 however is anyone still here awaiting uh the official appointment resolution 20 2405 item number 14 on the agenda for the culture and Leisure Services Board and our alternates anyone here is awaiting that if so uh city manager yeah um I would I mentioned to the mayor during the break that the reason this wasn't in consent the resolution appointing those members is because there was there were five interviewees for four seats today we learned that one of those interviewees with withdrew her application so there were only four interviews for four seats this would have normally Fallen under consent agenda and you wouldn't have to stick around to the end of the night for this so it is an item for Action scheduled for item 14 um mayor and I were talking about the possibility of being um considerate to those applicants to move that up into public hearings if that's okay just to dispense with it so they could and do something else with their evening if they wanted to okay Council uh City attorney I believe we can just proceed we should uh to item 14 sure agenda Council we're okay with starting with number 14 we'll come back to 12 right after this is resolution number 20245 appointing members and alternates to the culture and Leisure Services Board of the City of Cape Canaveral there's not any I we can start with a motion uh now should these all go together at one or do we recommend think we got to break them up okay so we have the resolution 20245 I think the recommendation of staff is to fill in the blanks so the um I understand it the two permanent appointments would be for um in section two would be Brad perll and Tina Freeman and then the two alternates would be under section three Virginia Scott and James stobby thank you very much okay so if Council wants to make a motion with all four names Mr City attorney that be okay yes sir all at once yep okay I'll make a motion that we adopt resolution 20245 with Brad perll Tina Freedman and alternates Virginia Scott and James Jamie stobby I'll second that motion got a motion by mayor per Tim Kellum and a second by council member Jackson any discussion on this city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis or all right resolution 20245 passes 5 and congratulations to all the new appointed members we're looking forward to all that can come from those efforts so back to item number 12 public hearing item here this is ordinance number 18 2024 City attorney okay hey this is ordinance number 18224 an ordinance of the city council of the City of Cape canaville Florida amending section 110-1 196 of the city code regarding non-conforming lots of record and single family dwellings and duplexes providing for the repeal of Prior inconsistent ordinances and resolutions incorporation into the code severability and an effective date this is second and final reading of this ordinance it's also a public hearing item there have not been any changes to this ordinance since first reading and I'm available to answer any questions however I understand there's several people that want to speak on this item so just prior to this meeting I whipped up a PowerPoint presentation and with with the council's permission I'd like to just go over this Ordinance one one more time Council City attorney floor is yours okay hold on Adam City Clerk I'm trying sorry well it's going to have to go that way sort EXC slid sorter slides what if you go down to the lower right enable Ed and then click the presenter mode in the bottom right I'm lost to click enable Ed editing oh got it okay and then slid order one more one more over no no to the far right there we go go back this one right there got it not doing yeah we usually turn them into PF City attorney for putting this together thank you you're welcome I haven't seen it yet but there we go apprciate to do it I I do thank you I don't know why I do missing yeah I don't know either um go back I can see that for what it's worth sorry guys um didn't know this was going to be I think that's just for yeah go back to PowerPoint three dots at the bottom on the ride I think is that it no I'm sorry oh we can I guess we can maybe go with that okay if sorry can everybody read that I mean I can yeah so it's been a while why don't we go to the first first slide okay so everybody can read that okay okay all right so this ordinance proposes amending 110-1 196 called non-con performing lots of record as I noted um at the last meeting this code provision has been in the code for um quite a number of years and this this code allows in any zoning District in which single family dwellings are duplexes are permitted a single dwelling family dwelling unit or a duplex may be erected expanded or aled on any single lot of Rec record um notwithstanding or even though such lot fails to meet the requirements for area width Andor depth for the applicable zoning District now the the next sentence says that this provision only applies when the yard Dimension requirements um other than the area width Andor depth conform with the city code and applicable Land Development regulations so that that's what this this code provides and the TR the the most crucial point is it has to be a single lot of record and we talked about at the last meeting that a single lot of record is a lot that is approved by the city council in accordance with uh the subdivision regulations next slide so the meaning of of the meaning of 110-1 196 first deals with non-conforming lots of record those were lots that were subdivided with the approval of the city and I put or the county because there are some Lots within the city that were approved by the county before the city's incorporation in 1962 um but they fail again to meet the current minimum size regulations in the zoning code area width and depth and now again if you have a lot of record and it doesn't comply with area width and depth and it's been approved by the city council under the subdivision regulations a property owner can build a single family dwelling or a duplex that can expand a single family dwelling or duplex or alter a single family dwelling or duplex on a lot of on that lot of record now if the zoning District allows for single family dwellings or duplexes and two the dwelling or duplex complies with yard dimensions and other applicable Land Development regulations so that that's that's the current code city council initiated um a review and evaluation and um um and and the and the adop creation of an ordinance to address situations where an existing single family dwelling or duplex has been constructed on a lot that was not approved I emphasize not approved in accordance with the city's subdivision regulations or um or or the county and like at Avon by the Sea so next slide the changes that are proposed first and foremost is the change to the title of section 110-1 196 so that title reflects that this section only applies to single family dwellings in duplexes the only looking at just non-conforming lots of record is not as explanatory as it should be because this whole section 110-1 196 only applies with respect to single family dwellings and duplexes so that was that change next Slide the other change proposed by this ordinance is to add clarification regarding yard Dimensions like what are yard Dimensions well yard dimensions are currently addressed in each residential zoning District where single family dwellings and duplexes are permitted so for clarification purposes this ordinance proposes um to explicitly reference by name in in the 110-1 196 what yard dimensions are so you will see some text added to to include minimum lot coverage minimum living area maximum height and setbacks so when this code refers to yard dimensions that's what it means minimum lot coverage minimum living area maximum height and setbacks so some language is being proposed to be added to be explicit on on what yard dimensions are next Slide the next Pro uh provision that's added to this ordinance um is clarifying what is currently allowed um and this language being added that existing on story single family dwellings may be expanded or altered to add a second story or ground floor addition of habitable space if the expansion or alteration is in compliance with yard Dimensions today if there is a a single family um home on a lot of record if it doesn't meet the the the area with or of the of the of the existing code even today someone can add a a second story to the home they can alter or expand the home provided that the expansion or alteration complies with yard Dimensions that is allowed today so additional languages are added to clarify that that is allowed today and these these clarifications regarding yard defin yard dimensions and this provision that's up on the screen is is added for clarity in the application of this ordinance given staff's giving staff clear Direction because questions have arose over the over time regarding how this section is interpreted and this adds the clarity as to its current its current meaning so next next Slide the next uh proposed change in this ordinance is some is a change that's recommended by the Planning and Zoning Board addressing a specific request of a property owner and I think that property owner may be here today um I recognize his face so he'll he'll State his case and the the proposed change adds a provision that would allow a second story of habitable space within an existing single family home footprint even though the existing um building footprint does not currently conform to the minimum lot coverage minimum living area and setback requirements however if this provision were to pass the Second Story still must of course comply with the maximum height um requirements in the uh zoning District so this this is a property owner uh specific requests to the Planning and Zoning Board the Planning and Zoning Board considered it and passed along a recommendation to add this provision now keep in mind you know as I mentioned in the previous slide if you have an existing s single family home on one of these Lots you can still add a second story provided that it meets all the yard Dimension requirements you can even expand the single family home today but um on a lot of record but this adds um an additional uh provision that when you have an existing single family home with a certain already defined building footprint if it doesn't conform to minimum lot coverage minimum living area and setback requirements they can still add a second story but it has to stay within the existing footprint which already exist today so they can't expand the Second Story Beyond uh the existing footprint everything has to be within the existing footprint and again that's a property owner request the next slide please the last I think this is the last slide this is um this is the situation involving you know legally subdivided Lots meaning lots that were that exist today um or Parcels that exist today where there is an existing single single family home or duplex today even though that parcel was not approved in accordance with the with the city's or the county subdivision regulations these Parcels are not considered lots of record under the city code so they're not technically um authorized to um you know obtain a building permit however you know the facts M that that that an existing single family home or duplex exists on a certain number of of parcels in the city that were not approved um as developable Parcels of lots under the under the city subdivision regulations so what this ordinance does for those Parcels with an existing single family home or duplexed it it deems those um Parcels of land a single lot of record and what that does is that then technically allows those single lot of records with existing single family homes or duplexes to come into the building department and request a building permit to maintain alter expand or reconstruct that single family home or duplex um and this proposal is in accordance with the section which I previously went over so th th this last part here the the amendment to the code um was intended to address the primary concern that the city council had last year when it initiated this uh evaluation and Endeavor so you know hopefully I mean that that helps and but that's those are the proposed changes um that are recommended um in this ordinance by the Planning and Zoning Board so I'd be happy to answer any questions at this time or whether you just want to go out and get public input it's up to the council City attorney thank you very much for putting this together council do we have any questions for him and I'm hopefully if we need to come back to this as a to clarify as a resource we have it on hand here it'll be a good reference point to discuss thank you I any questions for him before we go public comment yes council member Jackson um so City attorney with an existing lot of record if we had someone that built a nonconforming structure on a non-conforming lot of record um would it become existing once it was built if if the permit was allowed um I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from on this because I'm having problems with I'm I've been trying to find the older versions of this ordinance for non-conforming lots of record and the reason being is because we're not defining a list of properties we're making this blanket um ordinance and that worries me because it whatever revisions happened if someone built and they didn't build to code at that time then it would be a situation where they weren't their structure was not supposed to have been built if it if the ordinance was already in place so my my question is if we do this is this going to put us in a situation where people will be able to just build whatever size or whatever and going forward I mean because the definition of existing lot of record I mean to me it it would make sense or I'm confused I want to know because I know there's a need for this we want people's properties to be covered if something happened and they built in the 50s and it wasn't to our Cod now for example but once code is voted on or defined then anything built after that should it be included in this type of um ordin in this ordinance I guess this is the way the question I have City attorney because I'm like this is like just open for every lot in the city correct if you're referring to a parcel land that has not been approved by the city council in accordance with the subdivision regulations and you talk you're referring to an illegal I would call them an illegally subdivided lot is that what you're referring to well that or or any type of illegal building you know if I went in and I had a lot and I did not build to code after the initial um code enforcement um ordinance which is the one like the one I've been reading is ordinance 17 2006 so I know that we've probably gone through multiple changes over the years since the 50s and 60s right so um what was the last version that we had and are the properties that we are looking at were they built after that last version to where they're non-conforming at this point or were they built before we even had an ordinance so to me it depends on the date of the ordinance when it was adopted and what was adopted at the time and to so what I'm worried about is are we opening everything up for a blanket situation where people can just go forward pretty much building what they want and as soon as they build it it becomes a lot you non-conforming lot of record all right so I think what you what you're saying is is you're addressing the whole lot of record issue okay I mean there's a difference between the lot of record issue and like a non-conforming structure okay so with respect to setting the lot of record under the code it requires city council approval to approve that lot okay the only thing this ordinance addresses with respect to lots of record is that for those properties with an existing single family home or duplex all right that if they have an existing single family home or duplex and the parcel of land has not been approved as a lot of record by the council okay this ordinance would deem that parcel with the existing single family home or duplex a lot of record okay so now if if your concern is you know going forward Beyond today okay um you know we could add language to that section to state that the existing single family dwelling or duplex on the date that this this ordinance is adopted if you have an existing single family home or duplex on this on the date that the ordinance is adopt adopted that partiel is deemed a lot of record okay so then that existing single family home or duplex can be afforded the ability to pull a building permit to do alterations maintenance etc etc so we could add that Clarity if your concern is is that it might be open-ended regarding and that's that's the thing because normally when you look at um an ordinance like this once the DAT of the ordinance occurs if it defines the lot of record and what can be built on it based on setbacks and easements and all of that if we don't if it's defined so what we're doing is trying to deal with lots that were not defined and I don't want people going in and splitting things up and then just building whatever going forward and once they built it now they're an existing non-conforming lot of record and so to me if we're going to do that that just open-ended and we might as well just put up a sign hey build what you want you know and to me it's hard to understand how we got here with the ordinances that are there and my main goal is make sure that they can rebuild if a storm came through make sure the ones that were built back in the day on these non-conforming lots have the ability to rebuild if we had storm damage and things like that but I don't want to open end everything to where we end up going forward with an issue I mean that's my feedback thank you I took some notes there any other questions or concerns at this time before we get a public comment Mr Excuse me Mr Mr City attorney as as I heard councilwoman um council member um Jackson mentioned existing Lots record if someone wanted to split it they would have to come before Council in order to get that lot split would they not yes so nobody is just going to go and build something or build two homes on an existing lot of record without the city knowing well otherwise they will be non-conforming in all manner going forward right okay um but I mean we have lots that were split that we weren't aware and so we want to make sure that we're consistent and doing what we're supposed to do so that it's not just because we had them we had that happen know shouldn't and that's the point in sub paragraph B of the of the proposed amendment is that we have Parcels of land that have not been approved by the city council under the subdivision regulations that have existing single family homes and duplexes so I I I thought that the primary concern from Council way back when was to evaluate ways to help these Property Owners pull building permits to make whatever you know maintenance repairs or alterations or modifications that they would be allowed to do if if the if those Parcels were originally approved by the city counil as developable lots and that's what sub paragraph B is doing I think councilwoman Jackson your comment about all right maybe we just take a snapshot in time on the date of adoption and address those situations with existing single family homes and duplexes on those Parcels on the date of adoption would cut off um a similar benefit if it in the future um for other you know like you would mentioned you know people people perhaps building on Parcels of land that weren't approved by by the council they would not be afforded um you know the benefits under this under this ordinance I mean I personally think that that's uh would be a good addition at least just for today or at the time of adoption take that snapshot in time well and and hopefully we wouldn't have to address this again in the future well and that's what my thought is I mean we're paying a lot of taxpayers dollars to have these meetings and try to get this right and for me I'm worried about the as I'm looking at what we had in place in the past I'm trying to see how did we get here right and um I just want to make sure that we're taking care of the issue for the future okay thank you sorry Council any other questions at this time I've got a few but nothing technical again thank you City attorney for putting that together let's go to the public if we're okay with that we got two cards we can bring it back and discuss it first card I have is Adam marara you don't mind please take your name and address public hearing thank you my name is Adam marar my address is 212 Adams Avenue canav Roll Florida thank you uh so first of all I appreciate your time uh I'd like to speak to you guys about these non-conforming issues that are facing property owners in Cape canaval right now uh like I said my name is Adam marar I've been a 21-year resident of Cape canaval I purchased 212 Adams Avenue from the original family who built that property back in 1959 the Gil Fillin uh by private mortgage in 2004 and then refinanced it and paid them off in 2007 it's been my primary residence ever since uh the property was built in 1959 and is considered a non-conforming property not only the property itself but the lot uh it's like the majority of Avon by the Sea so I've spoken to members of city council I've spoken to members of the pnz board uh City staff members and the majority of the time when I speak to you guys I hear goals of Cape Canaveral are to improve and beautification of the city through low impact methods of development to keep families here in Cape canaval I've heard that a couple times at this meeting tonight and to limit the amount of airbnbs in short-term rentals I've heard that a couple times tonight I'm here to tell you that this blanket zoning that currently covers the city uh in the residential areas is actively prevents these goals from happening or severely inhibits these goals from happening I'm going to use my property as an example so built in 59 I have a 50ft wide lot with a 6ft setback to the East and a 5 1/2t setback to the West current code requires a 60ft wide lot with 8ft setbacks my family would like to improve this property by adding a second story uh which is a low impact method of development we'd like to keep the home period correct to keep the aesthetic of the neighborhood we love we don't want to knock our home down and build a big stucco monstrosity that belongs in a planned Community like Vieira or somewhere else we like the way our neighborhood looks that's part of the charm of living in Cape canaval so we've worked with the city for several on several different plans and ideas over the last 24 months altering it each time to try and conform to the current city zoning laws or codes uh finally finding a plan that we thought would work because it doesn't expand our footprint nor does it expand any non-conforming features unfortunately this has been an exercise in futility I've been recently informed that due to the non-conforming status of my property and based off the current language in our city code that a non-conforming property is not allowed any expansion despite not expanding the current footprint or non-conforming features and a variance is not allowed or appropriate for this situation Mr Mar let me just pause would you like a little bit more time I can counil are we okay couple more minutes yeah is that yeah just suitable thank you two minutes maybe Max uh because the city code was written with no foresight or consideration for these non-conforming properties the city is denying any Avenue of relief for these non-conforming Property Owners which goes against my rights as a property owner in the State of Florida I'm sure council members are aware of a Florida State the Florida state constitution and in that Florida state constitution there's a homeowner Bill of Rights number seven on that homeowner Bill of Rights states that the property owner has a right to relief or payment of compensation when a new law rule regulation or ordinance of that state or political entity unfairly affects that property so I want to know where the relief is for the non-conforming property owners is it fair the question the answer is there is no relief that's happening right now uh is it fair to impose modern requirements on a home and lot that were zoned in 1959 is a fair to govern those properties with Planning and Zoning that did not take them into account uh or give them any consideration I mean I'll give you an example after 2004 the Florida building code requires all doors and windows uh to be protected with impact rated systems did the State of Florida or the City of Cape canabal come knocking at my door my house that was built in 1959 and make me upgrade all my windows and doors no they did not do that because they don't make homes older homes retrofit to conform current standards because that just would not be fair so this Council should follow the lead set by the Planning and Zoning Board who voted unanimously to pass this ordinance without relief you'll see more families leave or just not consider Cape canaval as an option further endangering the future of our only Elementary School K View Elementary more developers will be knocking down these homes to put up as many units as possible to fill them with short-term rentals ruining the aesthetic of the neighborhood and doing it with high development or high impact development methods without the passage of this ordinance I'm really only left with two options number one is to move my family out of Cape Canaveral number two is to sue the city for violating my rights as a property owner both of which are horrible options I don't want to move my family and I don't want an adversarial relationship with a city that I love so I encourage Council to take action by passing this ordinance thank you thank you this is a public hearing item I do have a second card and if anyone else would like to speak Mr Pat Campbell uh please come forward and you can make sure you at least leave a card with us if you come up before filling one out and those of you listening at home uh if You' like to speak we do ask here in a moment once we finish here you to raise your hand and we'll make make sure you get unmuted and heard Mr Campbell Pat Campbell 307 surf Drive Cape gaval before I get started I want to clarify one thing that the City attorney said I want to make sure I understood did did you indicate that Planning and Zoning added the uh Second Story Clause to the ordinance the let me clarify maybe I'm I didn't misspeak but the C the Planning and Zoning Board recommended uh the Second Story with respect to the the non-conforming um situation um so that existing building footprint provision was added at the Planning and Zoning board's recommendation and then as I noted second stories are currently allowed under the city code for those conforming with the yard dimensions that's not changing but there's additional language being added to explicitly recognize what's allowed for those yeah I'm probably just not grasping it but my my question was did did you indicate Planning and Zoning added the paragraph about um second stores but yes in the existing foot building footprints for those non-conforming okay situations which so they added that to what was provided to them to review um I can't recall the sequence I just remember him speaking and then they wanted language okay added to the ordinance to address his situation but I think I can't even frankly Mr Campbell I can't remember if we consider this Ordinance one time two times three times before Planning and Zoning Board at this point okay thank you um so I have provided two sets of um my thoughts my objections my opinions uh on this ordinance and uh I most recently for this meeting provided for the record uh my objections to and I also provided uh that same sheet to all the council members uh so I won't go over I don't have time to go over everything that I wrote but I do want to point out a couple of my main points um and I think it was it's already been made one of my points is the ordinances already allow everything that we're talking about to be done anyway so in addition to that Mr Willis's original request to staff was to go um take give some recommendations on a problem that even I recognize exists people have built on on lots that are not recognized by the city the original task was to go go ahead and recognize lots that have existing homes uh as um have the city recognized them as lots of record that was the original tasking and then it blew up into this which has things in it that weren't even the original tasking in fact only one small part answers Mr Willis's question um Mr Campbell I I think you need more time yeah can I have a couple more minutes just same approach are we okay Council extending please the part that it talks about is um listed as B on any developed non vacant parcel land does not constitute a lot of record but upon which an existing single family dwelling or duplex was issued a certificate of occupancy by the city your county you're going to recognize that as meeting all the requirements to exist that was the original and and I'll take it back to Mr D Chris's 30 lots that he said were non-conforming uh he had a very particular reason why he's pointing that out but um I've been asking all along did did that happen did they build without did they get a certificate o occupancy for property that the city didn't recognize that's 30 of ever how many it is that we're talking about and I say that because I don't know how many we're talking about and the city hasn't demonstrated any ability to provide that information so a lot of what's in here is based on being able to identify if the lot is not recognized by the city so there needs to be some specificity put in here this needs to be done through workshops uh people that are affected need to hear this and um get back to the original the original request for staff and that's go fix the properties that we absolutely can determine have struct structures built on them homes that were not recognized by the city that got certificate of occupancies that's what was the original tasking was and this this misses the point on that and then I I I added some other things in there about expanding non-conformances the city the city essentially is buying off on the fact that if you're you're non-conformant you can go ahead and and build on it and increase the conform so I won't I don't have time to go through everything that I wrote but I would I would encourage you to at least address the things that I wrote give me an answer either I'm right or I'm wrong and it should be fairly easy to demonstrate whether I'm just full of it or whether I'm pointing out things that need to be reviewed and I think they need to be reviewed not in this venue but in a in a form where you have the time to go through the details and understand the consequences of action thank you thank you anyone else wish to speak please come forward raise your hand seeing none looking online public hearing item okay seeing No Hands raised we'll go ahead and close public participation or the public hearing back to the council we had some questions asked in the beginning following up after the presentation we've heard the public comments um I I want to just I think at this point say that I think everyone there there's concern the same concerns I think an urgency to pass it uh and the same concerns to not necessarily not just uh well not tonight move in a different way and the concerns I heard uh council member Jackson um and the original scope all of it brings up some some concerns and so the original necessity in scope of this whole thing the original ask has sort of creeped or expanded and when I went through and I read Mr Campbell's uh comments that were provided I also read Mr de Christopher's comments both sets of Mr Campbell's on first reading and second I had a chance to meet with the city manager and we didn't get too deep but it it's a lot and I think that being able to identify the the properties uh is really important because you know when you when I read this ordinance just kind of taken at a high level if we go to page one5 in the wear ass statements on the first page of the or this is what we're we're going to vote on line 34 says whereas the city council finds that over the course of several decades there are numerous instances within the city where a certificate of occupancy was issued or authorized by the city for the construction of an existing single family dwelling or duplex on a parcel of land that was not approved as a developable lot of record in accordance with the subdivision of land regulations in the city th this statement where as the city council that's us finds that over the course of several decades there are numerous instances one of the things that jumped out to me was that the cities we are saying this and this very well might be true but I have not reviewed any Properties or have any examples and and further the questions that I believe Mr Campbell asked for in response to the properties that Mr Dr Christopher listed and provided in the last meeting I don't know where we are with that but I think that's a really good start because for us to make an informed vote on this it really helps to see how big the problem is and I don't think we understand tonight we heard um some comments from Mr uh maraa uh pushing this forward and I think that he has some good points but I want to learn a little bit more about what happened there and I and I think that the idea of Workshop could be really good for this and how do we connect with some of the property owners who will be affected by this and get them in there because it's really hard to see this without seeing the properties and all the different circumstances that I think that this could bring up and so it it to me uh that's that's sort of where I am at this point I've got some other concerns in it that were raised but if we do need I think item number four Mr Campbell's letter is can we determine or quantify the affected properties referenced I think that's really important so that we understand the problem and I'm not I think that we can keep that sentence in the whereas but how I have a hard time approving this tonight that when it says over the course of several decades there are numerous instances and I really haven't had a chance to see kind of one play out if there's people not being able to get permits I want to learn a little bit more about that if they're being told uh you know that they need to go somewhere else that's not what I've seen I've seen emails where our city staff is working with them and get them here but you know I'm not aware of uh any variances or things like that not being an option really for anyone and so if that's or the special permit process that was uh mentioned as well which really brings back to that statement of do we we have the ordinance today which from my understanding uh before someone has uh really the two options move away or sue the city that's what we heard today I don't think those are the only two options I think the council should look at every option available for uh him and and that's why a workshop I think seems really appropriate and the and the reason and final point is it I don't think this is one of those things where we have a large quantity of people who are suffering if you will but uh if Mr morira is one it sounds like who who is in that category I think we should address that quickly and while this language might be a good option for that property I think the anxiety comes in on all the variety of different properties out there that that this could fit into and so the task was to to I think go back and look at um I think options and that's important to state that we've been presented a an option and a recommendation today but I'm not sure that this is a wise Next Step without workshopping it because this is sort of like an at large you know same impacts of when we did Workshop zoning changes and things like that so I think we should insert a step uh before we we push this uh across the line um to do it right uh and if I've got other questions uh throughout the the letter uh that I think we need to talk through and I I agree I don't think tonight's the time to do those um and so with that I I would like to see us consider moving this and workshopping the item before passing tonight so thank you there's any other comments at this time yes mayor perum Kellum um yeah I just have a few things I think um you know this was approved by the planning and zoning um board and I you know we don't know how many properties are out there but Mr D Christopher identified 30 we heard from an an owner tonight about his property um and I think because of councils in the past that have done special exemptions special variances that's how we got to where we are by special exceptions and and different things I think um there are some questions but I think this is pretty comprehensive on protecting the people's houses and you know if something happened here we had a horrible hurricane you know how would all these people be affected um I just think it's it's something that we need to move on um and like Kyle said when you know a lot of the people don't even know that they have a non-conforming so I mean how would we contact them if they don't even know to have a workshop um I think this is a way for us to promote families like Mr morray um and to me you know it's happening in our neighborhood excuse me Harbor Heights where they're just bulld closing houses and putting up horrible houses well not they're beautiful but they don't fit into the character of the of the city and they're putting short-term rentals in there and we're on the edge of losing our um our school so we want to promote families and we want them to have the ability to add a two story for a growing family here in our city um I just just think you know i' I've read through uh what Mr Campbell said there's a lot of good points in there but um I think this is pretty comprehensive I like the idea of of adding the date you know of um of when this would be effective um but I just think it it's really important to our city um and I don't I I can't see anybody being against it because it's protecting their property and their ability to you know renovate their property make it better make it look better um my house was built in 1963 um I don't have that problem because I have a big lot in Harbor Heights but you know on Adams Avenue and a lot of the other ones they're small Lots but to see them improve their property I think would be an asset to the city that's all thank you mayor protim council member Davis yes I I concur exactly what mayor protim has said um I think it's beneficial that we move forward Planning and Zoning so we should move forward so I'd like to make a motion to adopt number 18-202 24 do I need section 11096 196 that with the uh proposed amendment to add a date to subp paragraph B the adoption dat M I'd like for everybody to have a chance to discuss it first I don't think everyone has had a chance to speak council member Jackson yeah I had one well I'd still like to put the motion on the table sure I'm just clarify let the I think that makes a lot of sense with the addition of the adoption date with the adop addition please thank you um so I'll second okay got a motion by council member Davis second by mayor Tim Kellum City attorney city clerk is that clear any clarifying I understand that the motion is to approve the ordinance as presented with the inclusion of an adoption date to sub paragraph B yes thank you up for discussion and whatever you all want to do great thank you council member Jackson well and I'm like I said I'm all for protecting people's property we need to do that we need to be able to you know have Mr Moore I heard you in the pnz meeting and you need to be able to expand your place um but can we go ahead and vote on this tonight and and city manager could we obtain the properties that so that we have a reference to them for which ones are non-conforming now and maybe the dates their build so that we have that document for the city for going forward or would we need that City attorney I think the focus of this ordinance to add the protections for those Parcels that have not been approved is not so much on whether or not the parcel is has whether or not there's an existing single family home or right as of the date of adoption of this ordinance adopted that's that's the focus I think staff told you that it would be a Yan's task for the city to staff to go out there and actually identify whether a partial has been developed on that wasn't approved by the city council however as the mayor noted there is a recital we are aware of 30 that Mr the Christopher pointed out in that neighborhood and those have existing single family homes that or duplexes that go from my understanding of the building records according to the property praisers website from 1979 through maybe 2016 is these homes or duplexes were constructed those and then Avon by the C of course righted by the county do doesn't they those lots do not conform okay thank you that's about the extent of our I don't want to speak out turn call of our no yeah that that's correct I we basically we' have to go through manually on on the property appraiser to to really I mean manually go through every single property and we're a small City but we're not that small so it would it would be difficult to identify each one um you know manually okay thank you I have another question so if I owned a lot right now that it was nonconforming as of this as we pass this if we pass it with the effective date so then I have a nonconforming lot I will not be able to build on that without it being approved from this point on we're not going to let people build on non-conforming lot of record I mean there are n there are non-conforming lots but they are of record with that they are of record have been approved by the city or or the county they just don't comply with the area width Andor depth all right of so those would be non-conforming as I noted in my slide presentation because they were approved but they don't comply with existing regulations so those are non-conforming lots of record okay good those lot non-conforming lots of record today have the benefit of being able to build a single family dwelling or a duplex upon that lot of record and they can expand and alter their home or duplex on that lot of record provided that they meet the yard Dimension requirements so City attorney one more question then I'll I'll promise I'll stop let's say I have a 4 acre lot and it's a 4 acre lot at the county and here in the city right now and I want to split it up into non-conforming Lots after this is passed am I able to do that I'm taking it no no okay that's what I wanted to that that property owner with a 4 acre lot a 4 acre par of land would have to comply with the city's subdivision regulations okay that's what I wanted to verify thank you okay so I we got the motion on the floor in a second we're discussing it this time um the goal I think mayor PM you said people to uh be able to build on this second story today City attorney or planner city manager is there a process for a property owner without this to build on the Second Story I think that from my reading is they can do that today and they do that today is they're on a lot of record yes yeah then they would come into the city building department and then request a building permit to add a second story on the home you know the the building official would have to first say okay is this a lot of record that's been approved by the by the city if yes then they would examine um Second Story complies with all the yard Dimension requirements um including not exceeding the maximum height in the you know whatever the zoning District requires for those yard Dimensions would have to be complied with when trying to add a second second St yeah so they could if all that Fells because there a lot if there a lot of if the property is a lot of record approved by the city development purposes then they would come in and apply for a building permit for a second story and they would have to meet the yard Dimension requirements under the applicable Z residential zoning district and if they do then the building official crosses all the other Fire and Building Code would be able to issue a per the problem of course is the the for example the 30 Lots or so that the Christopher identified those are not lot of Records so if they came into the city today those lots have not been approved by the city uh they would not be able to do a second store doesn't recognize them as lots of record they weren't approved have we declined any permits for on the basis of a lot of record Mr M any others and when did that happen yeah so the issue and Anthony correct me if I'm saying anything wrong is that Mr Mara's property and many others in the presidential streets don't comply with the setbacks currently so his I don't know exactly what it is but his you know if it's 8T require his is is 5T because it was built in 1952 or whatever um and that's the case with a lot of these presidential streets and so so currently because it doesn't meet that he can't add that second story and see that's why I was concerned about the dates because the older homes in some of our city areas are not set up that way and why I'm wondering why we can't grandfather those guys because you should be able to build up we certainly have some that are going by their setbacks but they're going up three stories and I mean literally are huge right next to a single story structure so it makes no sense I I heard your case Mr more when you I was in the Planning and Zoning meeting when you discussed that and so you know we need to make sure we're accommodating people to be able to do something with those older homes and this would do it is that correct this would take care of him well no because is a setbacks yeah on a second story you would if this ordinance were to pass the house as it exists today on that small lot of record or lot that it it doesn't meet the setback requirements this ordinance passes a second story would be allowed provided it stays in the existing footprint and it would not be able to do a second story and and further expand expand into the setback that would not be allowed because it it's only the building footprint for that type of situation would allow him to develop up which we have houses that have knocked down you know 50 style bungalow houses that have built a new structure that are three stories tall you know so that makes sense thank you I appreciate no it's good I'm going to just jump in there uh so the permit was denied from Mr merera and I I don't recall specifically I don't think I was on that permit but is that correct that it was just denied through the we never even got can you speak in the lect turn please so we can recording so you didn't officially apply you were told that hey I thank you very much yeah so uh we never even made it to the official permit stage we just kept conferring with Planning and Zoning or Kyle and Dave just to try and work with our plans to make them conform to what the city's codes were and over 24 months of going back and forth with an architect and a designer and altering Things based on their suggestions we still weren't we came up with the plan of not expanding any non-conforming features so not eating into the setbacks and just occupying the current footprint and that's when we found out that we were even meeting all of those requirements we were still not allowed to move forward because of the language in the city's uh code it doesn't allow for any expansion of a non-conforming property so whether up out anything so I'm stuck when I bought that home nobody showed up at my door or showed up at my closing with a form that said hey you're buying a house that you will never be able to do anything with good luck that just that doesn't happen so thank you thank you and well we're trying to I think fix that and I really appreciate this U so the the or the ORD the Cod I'm just I'm I've spent a a lot of time on this one over the past 24 hours and and trying to get my my head around it and the he did do we have any knowledge of any permits that's been denied for uh properties that are not considered a lot of record has usually usually it'll be they'll call before they get to the permit stage so they'll call and ask can I do this and at that point we we'll usually tell them what we tell Mr marara but on the unusual circumstances do we have any records of any permits that's been denied because because the story that that I think we are trying to change the course on is that people are going to try and apply for a permit and their permits are going to be rejected and all I'm asking for is do we have a case where somebody I understand that people call but do we have an actual case where somebody filled out and if and if we don't know that's fine but if it was a big problem I think we would know and so the point is is I don't know if this is a big problem and I do think that a lot of them exist but I guess my my issue is he cannot build on the existing footprint today on the second story if he stays within the existing footprint today he cannot do that on his non-conforming lot because it violates the expansion violates the setback the current the current as I understand it the existing single family home violates the setback requirements but that's correct okay I can we find that uh I've got the whole non-conforming Clause here uh and again I I think that this is wise of us if no one is anyone pending or waiting on this to pass uh like immediately I do advise that we seriously consider a workshop In fairness to our city manager I like to call the question okay got a motion that requires a second and a super majority vote of the council call question Mr Mayor I just I think like Kyle says most of the people when they call and say this is where I live I want to do this and they go nope you can't cuz you're on a non so they never really get to the permitting car and you know if we want to encourage people to fix up their houses or add a second story for their children fix this Mr Mayor yes sir council member Willis I've been working with this for 18 months with the city attorney and talking with Dave Dicky and Kyle and I believe that we will cause more of a problem by not doing it then we will by doing it I don't you know I know council member Kellum brought up that if we had a catastrophe which I brought up at the last uh council meeting and you told me that was red herring but um I think not doing it will cause more problems than if we do you will see if we don't do this you will start seeing because we'll be looking for those we will let people get to the permitting process and decline them can we take our vote I I I'm not saying not do it I'm saying a workshop I mean the fact that you've been working on it that long tells me that there is a lot to it and I get and I agree with what you're saying may protim but but when I when I dig in and again not for tonight there is some conflicting language there are some scenarios that do not make sense and I think a workshop is prudent I won't push it further than that I do feel that that would really uh help and I want to learn more about that the final question was can you build on the existing footprint today we said that this an a variance and that would open my eyes to whether this problems how big it is um I do see how it could be a problem and I do agree that if it can help uh potentially it's just I don't know how many properties this is going to impact and I do not I am not convinced it's going to impact all the properties positively I think that the yes the person who gets the up the second story is benefit but I'm not sure there's many other examples than than that but the the uh the abing parcels will feel the same way so with that I think the Workshop is reasonable but council member Davis you I think we've given ample time for each council member to say how they feel so I would request we do a vote think uh the motion on the floor in the second stands good okay no further discussion city clerk council member Davis or council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison against CC counc member Willis four all righty passes 4 to one that concludes the public hearing items for tonight thank you all very much working through that okay so now we are at moved around here one one okay 13 I think we moved item one in front of this right um Council get back pulled out some notes in the last one okay everyone's there we are at item number one resolution 2024 wait I'm sorry are we on yes that was 13 to ratify the composite city manager performance evaluation and discuss determine how to proceed with the provisions of section two salary and evaluation of the employment agreement between the City of Cape canaval city manager Todd Morley I think we have Natalie here who can help would make sense if you would like Natalie to kick us off sure I can do that thank you good evening everyone um so you have a pretty extensive package that I prepared there for you um we're here to like you said ratify um the performance evaluation uh I ask is your mic on can you not hear me uh it's kind of low that's better you thank you so excerpt one it was the um part of the performance evaluation that does allow you to make the adjustment uh we did include um a draft from the previous council meeting which extended past the deadline so we um which was July uh attachment 3 is a compilation of all of your narrative evaluation comments so we went ahead and added those all together for you in that attachment and attachment 4 is a composite of all of your scores compiled together so um like to note that the out of five um the total was an overall of 4.43 so very good and um attachment five of your packet is three different analysis of different the first one is all of the city managers of Bard County and their current pay grades versus um our city manager so um there is an 11.3% difference there and the second one is the salaries of Florida beach towns with similar populations with a 133% um disparity and the last one is a compilation of Florida cities and towns throughout the state and that one had the highest um disparity and then the next page of that packet you'll see results from our Employee Engagement um survey which we're still showing a high level of employee satisfaction which is in line with the Gallup surveys which is really good to note because as we know employees don't leave compan companies they leave managers so our employees seem to be highly engaged and um since I've been here since March we have had a relatively low turnover um voluntary low turnover I'll say um so um I believe and then also in that packet there's some information from the Gallup pole and also some headlines from other municipalities throughout the State on what they're doing for pay increases can I answer any questions thank you very much Natalie is our HR director and provided very helpful overview does council have any questions at this time yes mayor Pro Tim Kellum I have a couple questions um when you're doing the comparison um we do by population do we also consider budgets and and the amount of employee employees for no there wasn't there's that's yeah no that kind of information we did not ask for okay and the current uh salary is 152,246 correct plus the car allowance correct those are listed in the second column okay all right thank you you're welcome thank you mayor Pro Tim Kellum so we just I think we should work through this together make sure everyone's on the same page and I think that the break get up into little uh decisions here this is every year that by contract and some of it in our code and Charter has provided for us to evaluate and make decisions on moving forward the scoring system uh that we use today helps and I want to save these comments for for a little bit later but um I do have some some comments about um the evaluation process Council any other comments or anyone who wants to go it's never uh this is always one where no one wants to go first but I can happy to do that if that's Mr Mayor yes council member Willis I'll be happy to go first I have every confidence in the city manager I think he is uh worked very hard this year to bring us through some tough issues um I think he's done an admirable job and I am all for ratifying his um assessment his and uh look forward to improving his Salary thank you council member Willis so uh R ratify and improve can go next as well no I think the city manager has done an excellent job this year and again it has been a couple tough tough months to get through and he's done it ably I will um also agree to increase his Salary thank you council member Davis okay council member Jackson or well I come from a different world than public service I'm I'm a new Council woman so I asked historical questions when I looked into this because um in 2020 the starting salary was 118,000 and um you know we're looking a 10% increase and and we actually are looking at you know in four years we've increased at 34,7 76 and then I was told David Green was at a higher salary than he is at right now so it's just very hard for me since I'm new at Council because I don't know anyone that's getting a 10% increase on salary right now anywhere so that's what trips me up with it um so and also I don't have the historical knowledge to know how did you how do how did it all come about starting at 118 and then when I look at the comparisons I don't really see an a a great comparison for as far as I'm concerned because some of these towns are off the chart but I don't know what their budget is and things like that and that would make a difference if you had you know like I'm I'm betting that and I don't even know if that one's on there but you know if you looked at um the difference between uh Isa marada clear waterer and cap Canaveral I mean we're not even so it was hard for me to use that calculation as any kind of basis for establishing an a average salary so to speak so it's I'm the first to say it's very difficult for me this being my first uh time doing this and doing it publicly because in Enterprise businesses we do this privately so it's hard because I don't know how to really um look at one cuz you can't look at the population you really can't look at you have to look it geographically where is it Loc ated because there I can tell you anywhere in the Keys has a lot more you know property taxes that they're receiving as a city than we would be mhm so it's really hard for me to judge um on that and um and then um I found out of course there there's not a pension here so that made a difference to me um but I have no basis to judge what what a good comparison is because like Coco Beach I see that salary and with the 10% that would make a uh Us close in that range and also their budget is a lot higher than ours and their taxes are going up tremendously so do we want to be that City you know so I'm looking at it going I'm having a hard time um really comparing an apple to an Apple versus an orange to an Apple you know so thank you it is um I think council member K you asked a few questions you're good right now now so yeah it is a difficult and different um and it's because I think the position of city manager in itself is a difficult and very different position including all city um staff but certainly uh the way our Charter and ordinance is structured is uh the early uh believ that manager Council and we've seen that by far the most uh popular uh form of government and we've been running with that since the beginning so today I just want to point out that just by Nature I mean that's that that's the executive seat it has been a very tough year it has been um and and I've had a chance to to sit down with our city manager and I I took the time to uh well I think this has been three or four years now we've been EV valuating um and trying to to make it better and it it's sometimes there the way that you know certain questions can be interpreted you could actually answer them in different ways and so that's my little comment is for improvement moving forward but in in the evaluating I did uh my my best and I think that we have uh we've had a tough year and there are no matter who's uh holding the Steady Hand on the wheel um those years are going to come and go they're the seasons of of life um and we've had some external kind of factors whether it be going back to the covid and nav ating that and hurricanes are certainly those stressors and I think a Coastal Community comparing to another Coastal Community is a really good uh idea because uh storm prep and Recovery is a kind of a a unique thing but a lot of those other cities have their own unique uh you know different Services uh city of Melbourne managing airports and uh you've got I I would would say a metric of employee count population certainly helpful but they over a thousand I mean over 500 employees and and I know that our staff is comprised of a group that's worked some of them from other cities and they and and they've worked in larger cities and with our structure with contracts providing Services you know we don't have our own waste collection in house we don't have uh we we contract the sheriff's department uh and we've uh contracted lawn maintenance um those that that's different than than a lot of the Cities a lot more employees and and having to deal with it so I think employee count is is something that I did my best to look at and I appreciate the analysis but you know and then Bard just geographically no matter where the city is it is valuable to see all the Bard cities and make sure that we're uh remaining competitive and knowing that that I mean every one of these is what is a very difficult job for every single one of those cities and and here um I've been with Todd since the the beginning of this journey and there has been tough years that's what a tried to communicate that that's happened uh for external forces and then there's tough years uh internally uh just pain and loss and suffering and and real life problems that can strike any employee or any company any City and it hurts and it causes setbacks within the community navigating that is very difficult and I've complemented um Todd's efforts around a lot of those areas um and as far as one of the biggest Transformations I think we've seen was the outward accessibility of of our city manager it's for almost a decade there it was very difficult to uh access the city manager um and and our city manager is going out after the meeting once a month uh putting himself out there and and recapping with citizens who choose to come at it's called the coffee with the city manager as many of us know and I know to do that every month and to to prepare with the followup and the questions and having supporting staff there that's on our ranking scale something that I would you know say is very good with Todd and and we're um lucky to have that because I live through the other and it it just creates a d Dynamic that can make it very difficult so when it comes to those types of challenges whether it be external um internal uh the one challenge that I did not and in sort of the ranking that I did not feel was was there was largely because um I believe we created some of these problems for ourselves and it's seven years being on the council some of the early things that were brought to the attention of to our city administration were at the time a different Administration and and and different Council was met with a lot of resistance a lot of resistance uh uh on the dis uh in the community uh very lonely place as far as where to get uh Clarity and over the years we have unpacked and been able to pull out and improve so much much across the board and Todd has attributed to that but there obviously in January the the issue around uh the special meeting there was something that I first want to say I appreciate the council going through and it took a lot of time but the reality is is I'm not through that I don't think we are through that that uh we need to get through that and I do not think that should um have got to that point I do not think that should have ever went on the meeting and it is so much bigger as I've said than than that and so my hope is that we can get a better handle on those issues and that I think is going to take time and I think we're seeing uh steps and decisions uh being made that are moving in that direction but after 7 years since 2017 early issues that were raised um I think had to be go through a process to to sort of grind your way into answers that I do not think any council member we we should have ever had to do and for those reasons and due to it just being across the board uh I have a very hard time uh justifying um a raise and I I think that we gave a a large percentage raid last year do we remember what that was May Kell do you remember C member well 11 and so this year I think we need to to look at when I look at the salary that's compensated with the benefits with the retirement uh I I draw the line on on as far as on that this year I don't think that's the right decision I think that um every year we bring this up and and we've seen large raises small and some years it's not even an indication or proportional to what's happening but for for this year moving forward I I think our city staff is at a 3% increase is that right 3% Merit increases at 3% and then 2% in the budget so the cola is 2% 2% right but if you look at the last couple pages of your packet most cities are giving seven and eight thank you that's that that is um it it has been a tough year um I do have I some some open concerns that are yet to be resolved and I I do not feel comfortable um I think we've gotten over some humps but we we've got a little bit further I think to go and and it really is fixing some of the problems and as long as I think we start we're pursuing that um we're going to being in in in good shape but um that's all I have to say Thank you Mr Mayor yes council member Willis could I ask Natalie a question yes please does uh city manager not participate in the retirement yes no as an employe you do not participate in the retirement plan my contract calls for me to have the same um same benefits defined benefit program as regular employees okay which is not a pension right okay okay I guess I look at it a little differently um mayor what you're describing you know yes there was issues and and different things that we don't need to go into but I look at the positive of it the hard work that the uh city manager has done to improve and and everything else instead of looking at the negative of what we went through what you know whatever I look at the positive so I see that because of his hard work and getting through you know through this I think I'm I'm still I still am for a rise some percent of a rise thank you Council M Davis so you are suggesting a raise of what percent I I haven't said what percent but I'm no I actually thought you said a percent got it sorry a certain yeah certain percent I thought you said seven and but sorry I don't no I I think I did hear the r in there okay um and and the the the other thing that I would just add on is that and I think at any point we can do this I think it is imperative we we come to some some basic metrics um that we value and we want our city Administration that we all agree on our good things and I think that is something that will really help right and and and most important ly give the city manager a fair chance to say well where's the line let me let's at least go for it and um I really think that'll be something that could really I mean an addendum to the contract or some sort of just acknowledgement um of the city council so because we have a lot of goals big budgets things moving we have our Charter our code and the employment agreement all the things and what it is lacking I think is some some tangible goals that we can work towards and goals are goals um it's not uh anything other than than to try and unify and work together towards that um that's just an idea I don't think it's wise to spend time on on that tonight but we have to I think make a decision on um the agreement uh and consider adjusting salary and if there's any more to discuss on the evaluation um we we certainly can do that as well sorry you're gonna go mayor pretend you can go okay um I just I agree I think this year has been really tough the last seven months have been really tough there's still lingering issues that are not resolved yet um I think uh the city manager has made good strides in um fixing the problems um I think he had to do a lot more work with these issues than he should have as a leader but he did um but I think you know I don't think these comparisons are fair because you know you have the city of Coco in here as you know part of the evaluation their budget is $17 million um you know and I I don't think that that should be counted in our comparison if you look at Satellite Beach Indian Harbor Beach Coco Beach which is all around um the same population um Satellite Beach is about this more employees they have a police department a fire department Indian Harper Beach is more uh realistic closer to us and Coco Beach has um a golf course a swimming pool um police fire department but um I don't think that these comparisons are are fair or right for our little city um to put them in there as a comparison on what we should uh evaluate um I I think that a raise is is needed I don't I can't go with 10 or 11% only because we still got a long way to go but you know Todd is making strides I think the idea of having goals set that um you know certain metrics like uh mayor said will be accomplished in the next year um I just it's you know everybody likes to does a good job every but I'm just saying we still have lingering problems um we're working towards the right way we have made giant strides I think um but you know the issues had to come to the council for them to be addressed and totally you know um pushed in the right direction so I am for a raise I I can't I can't do 10% but I'm willing to hear other numbers council member Davis I have a question for Natalie are this one I'm looking at the ones that's Florida cities and towns that has the bottom of 243 on the larger charts so around the same one is this current which one are you looking at it says Florida cities and town sorry oh for Venice has 243 Venice it says Venice is 243 the average is 183 243 or any of these I could it goes with any of the charts I guess is it what they're getting now this is not including the pay raises that they may get this is this right these are a little bit dated so yes so they're outdated so they could be making more the most accurate up to date is bravard County so those numbers did go up a little bit but I mean if we're comparing Apples to Apples you really can't because you would have to look at time and position and Coco Beach's city manager was thrown into that position with zero experience so he was given 165 just because the lady in that position had that pay and he had never been a city manager and the reason the justification for todot previously was he wasn't seasoned and he is now so we would have to why their taxes went up I have another comment I mean this has nothing to do I I I agree with um mayor proam and council member Willis that there is a raise is required what I want to say is about the car allowance I look at all this and um I believe Todd's getting excuse me city manager is getting 600 600 so if every I would be okay looking at this that's one of the higher ones I would be okay to keep him at the 600 and then give him a raise on the other side if that that would help you know we don't increase the car allowance but we increase the salary yeah because he has done a lot of work this year and he's done it very well and was there a percentage there or just you you're saying that you are increasing so I think the only number we have is the not 10 um yeah I did not give a percentage okay but I do agree with keeping if if Council agrees I agree with uh keeping the 600 so that the can go [Music] up I have one clarifying statement the experience I think when we were talking about in the beginning interum he did not have experience was that when you were going back and saying I mean that's what it says in the me you know that was the original justification when he was given the 118 was that he wasn't a seasoned city manager so I'm saying when you're if we're really going to look at things you're going to have to look at years in position so justification for not being seasoned city manager and he got 11% raise the second year excuse me he got a 11% no I'm saying C council member Jackson was saying Coco Beach is at 165 but when you're really truly looking at it he was only given that amount because that's what Robin Hayes was making and he was put into that position never having any management experience okay so I think that is well the 10% raise was last year 11% yeah the point I don't remember what it was I mean figure it out but after that 118 I remember there was a a big uh to to bring it I think up and and get him into that range either way um I'm committed to to continue to move forward with Todd we keep in communication we've met for uh our prepar preparations for this meeting uh on Friday I think we did and um me and Todd I think communicate well we just have uh to get through I think some of these issues and and I I've always said uh with a will there's a way and I do see a will and I I I think it's like anything we can look forward and predict it really is just one day at a time for all of us right I mean isn't that the truth I don't want to be bringing this up every single day so I do like the one year uh so with that um I'm I'm in that that mindset uh and I think we if there's a desire to get to give a raise uh that that would be a good Next Step at 152 776 today um Mr Mayor yes sir I'm sorry council member Willis you it's okay it's okay I just want to make a motion I'd like to make a motion that we ratify the uh uh evaluation and give M uh count uh city manager Morley a 10% raise I'll second my my question is City attorney let me just state that uh got a motion from council member Willis uh and seconded by council member Davis to ratify composition and a 10% raise council member Davis City attorney do we need to include in that motion the car allowance or is that something separate or is that not to be addressed if it if it's not in the motion it's it's not addressed and stays the same so it stays the same okay that's fine thank you any further discussion got a motion on the floor hearing council member Jackson any further on the the motion I guess at hand 10% raise ratify and a 10% raise I can't do 10% not in this economy um and that's just a really high after 11% last year like I said I'm I'm Flying Blind on comparisons because I don't know how many employees these these cities have I don't know what their budget is it's easy to say oh so and so's making 200,000 or so and so's making 180,000 I don't know what their budget is they and Mickey gave an EXC excellent example council member Kellum um with the Coco budget that's hugely different so I can't I can't with this type of data I can't come to a conclusion to where I can support that figure I the analytics aren't there for me so I I don't know what and I agree it's been a hard year I'm sorry I agree it's been a hard year and I agree that I'm I'm seeing changes too um I just can't make this work analytically because I don't have any comparison that I'm really able to look out I'm sorry councilman K that's fine May ptim yeah I just off the cuff I took Satellite Beach Indian Harbor Beach Coco Beach added them together 469,000 and divided get by three comes out to 1565 I don't know what percentage rate that is as U apprach if you remember that's this that's current that is not increased for them this year so their numbers could be higher because lower too though I mean we just thought County was the closest ones to president yeah I was just reminding that it's not necessarily the accurate one well I just think in comparison to population um you know but like I said before Satellite Beach has a fire department and a police department Indian Harbor Beach is probably the closest to us and they're at 15 156 896 um and Coco beach you know I understand 165 998 was given to a a a guy that doesn't have any experience but that's that's why they have to raise their taxes and they have a lot more Revenue coming in than we do um and there's a lot more job responsibilities because of the amenities within the city so I I would around 1565 I would make I would be somewhere if you add the 600 to that would be 157 a ballpark 157 a year that's something I could live with for this year the motion on the floor is worded as a 10% raise um the the one more time the the amount the total dollars May per Tim 150 1565 plus the car allowance um is50 71 yeah they're not including the car allowance in there [Applause] so so $156,500 for the I think we for the salary yes and then they keep the car allowance the same mhm um I would even go with Indian Harbor Beach 156 896 that would be okay but I can't go 168 I can't do 10% like councilman Jackson said this is a tough year for everybody budgets and okay um any further discussion we do have a motion on the floor um we can vote that through we can amend there's no further discussion I will ask city clerk to call the role if you want to vote it through or try at 10% no every every everybody needs to be on record for what they want so let's let's call the vote I don't know if that's true I don't know if we need to be on the are we required to be on the record for a the specific percentage pay raise no if you're going to make a salary adjustment of course you need to be on record because you need a majority vote but oh ABS but I I did I was just making sure we don't have a criteria to State you know we write in a number but there's I didn't miss anything for a percentage or we have to State our percentage doesn't have to be a percentage it can be a fixed amount it could be no amount I mean it's council's prerogative it just takes a majority vote yeah one year we did a flat amount okay well hearing none city clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson against mayor protim Kellum against mayor Morrison against council member Willis four motion fails two to three I'm sorry fails 3 to two thank you um for a 10% raise and I would like to make a motion to um accept mayor Pro Tim's recommendation using Indian Harbor Beach as an example with 15 56896 plus the car allowance I'll second okay got a motion by council member Jackson for $6,890 annual salary and the ex and keep the existing car allowance the same yes and a second by mayor protim Kell C attorney just a point of order I'm assuming that means also accept the evaluation that has been presented the previous motion said that they would the council would accept the evalation or ratify the evaluation plus a 10% increase this motion as I understand it has a fixed salary adjustment to 156 896 but did not include accepting the evaluation as presented so that's I'm just pointing that out can we yes let's let's accept the evaluation as presented thank you City attorney and do the increase similar to Indian Harbor Beach 156 896 plus uh the existing car allowance ask a question mayor prend I think when you were doing the calculations you said 157 something and now um the motion is 156 I just want to clarify and can I ask what percentage increase that would be act actual percentage we need 2.69% it's what 2.69% yeah I was going to see if we were going to add the additional 2% Cola for the staff into that on top of that additional 2% cuz what if that's what the staff is getting I didn't know hold on now he's getting across he's getting the staff that that is approved across the board no I'm saying because these these numbers are the currents so I didn't know if you were going to do the cola too you got to remember these numbers are old numbers they're these are their currents from the current fiscal year not what they're going to get moved to with their cities so can we clarify first was it 157 or one I'm sorry I just want to make sure I understand because I thought at the beginning you said 157 um I think I was doing the if you take Satellite Beach Indian Harbor Coco Beach add them together divide it by three it comes up to 156 can't read my own writing 8 90 and then you add in the car allowance which you had brought up that that's a separate thing so that's why I just said I would go for the 156 896 as the same as Indian Harbor beach plus the $600 um you know keep the car allowance the same and so it's a 2 point 69% did you say 2.69% yes but wouldn't he automatically get the 2% that everybody else gets no no but my point being is all of these count they were all in the process of also analyzing their City manager's wages when I was looking at this cuz they're all in the process of doing increases as well mhm so these numbers are going to change you say that Bard was current though no some of the numbers I know um like West Melbourne is going to be going up a lot of those numbers she was also looking cuz a lot of those are also going up right now but that's not an accurate account well they're the current but a lot of those city managers are in the process of getting raises this Council should not fly blindly I think we have to go off what we go off of those numbers could lower those numbers could they could right so my point was are we going to take the current Cola into account on top of what these numbers are to adjust so if we I'm sorry if we what would be it would be 2.9% and then if you add in the 2% that everybody else is getting it would be 4.9% so where would that put his salary then what number I don't have a calculator with me up here I you're going up 4.9 you might as well go even five it's about a $5,000 annual raise I mean we we are I think it's we don't have to it's good to know the percentage or you can do the dollars I yeah 156 896 is is the motion on the floor and to accept clarify the ratif ratify and accept the city manager evaluation and you're saying I'm still trying to discuss what it would be for 5% to get a number for 5% increase 5% would put it at $ 16,44 thank you% [Music] ,000 so the motion on the floor is uh 156 896 yes the salary portion and keep the allowance the same and to accept ratify the evaluation I um my position on this is pretty firm I I don't think I think we need to get back to work this is it says to evaluate the city manager and consider evaluation we we we score and then we consider it and we I mean just this is something I don't even think we have to vote on just for the sake of it says that but we do need to consider it and so I think we can also bring this back at any point I think we did that one year if I remember you know in regards to the Future um or the other ones maybe that other cities do it give raises or increases in 90 days you can come right back here and make adjustments um you can do it next meeting uh if I right Mr City attorney I don't think I mean at any get a mon into this and we don't feel good about it we can say increase and we don't need evaluations and analysis anymore we just I mean at the very least the council needs to just accept you know receipt of the evaluation but contract's clear it says there's no set time period in terms of considering adjustments the contract just says that the city agrees to consider adjustments in base salary and other benefits of the city manager such amounts and to such extent as the council May determined desirable on the basis of an annual performance evaluation so mean consider the adjustment tonight or you can consider got to be based on the annual thank you any further discussion on the motion on the floor no I just wish it would be considered at least for the 5% even Mr Mayor yes the the aage evaluation came out is above average 4.43 so I think I think at a minimum we need to be at 5% or above okay um well with that I just want to well I could find it any further discussion um I thought you were so we right so the evaluation total average is 4.43 last year it was 4.78 so it went down um what if we gave him a 4.43 raise I would be careful with that that might be the appropriate range but when you get I I thought I'd love to what did you say why don't we give them basing it on the evaluation it might be a great idea I just want to point out uh you know that the evaluation the yeah the ranking of that just correlating that with is a is a is a good metric uh if the truth is is if we're going to start talking about that it went down across the board on all five council members from last year that's the reality performance evaluation and its decrease for three years in a row so his highest point that I saw was 2020 Oh I thought you and I looked at that together I was to say went you had a then what were the numbers it only went up each year it only went up I thought it went plus I apologize I and I did I I looked at that in the city manager evaluation and his office together and I evidently read it wrong I this year's evaluation is higher than last year's evaluation this year's evaluation is lower than last year but prior to that it only went up this is the first time it's taken a turn down thank you so I thought two years ago Okay so please excuse me last year not two years ago it went down across the board and when we said above average the ranking system what were the what what is is there an average mayor ranking is that what it says may I'm trying to ask a question is that average is that the terminology I've lost my because it's I don't think the actual metrics it's to average where are the where's the evaluation um what they mean though no it's uh exceeds uh most of the time usually um the the whole evaluation I don't think it's provided the actual what a what a number five means right always exceeds usually exceeds may I include something do we have what those numbers mean and yes uh council member Davis you also have to include that uh council member Jackson also did a lot of Nas during this evaluation yeah but they they calculated mine based on the na yeah but I'm just saying there was a lot of there wasn't numbers yes but they calculated a number in there for ones so it was supposed to be Balan okay I don't know where that I don't think it's in here it is in our pocket no and I had another one on the evaluation but not on [Music] the Y okay um well let's uh let's do something with this it's uh 9:34 if we don't get an answer to that that I just wanted to state that if we're going to start using rationale like above average based on the average of what that that was it so I I didn't fully understand what that meant exactly um was trying to verify but either way motion on the floor is for the proposed raise as stated by Tim Kellum if there's not anything else I'm going to go ahead and um call it can I yes Council Davis um I just want to point out that the staff is getting a 2% raise 3% plus 2% 3% Merit 2% Cola that's 5% okay thank you and what we're considering right now for the city manager is 2.69 when in fact he has more responsibilities and more uh duties than the average staff member I mean the staff does great work I'm not knocking staff but the city manager has a lot more responsibilities to than the staff does and we're going to give him a 2.69 in the staff I think he deserves at least five as well thank you okay okay council member Davis um comparing the percentage increased to staff based on responsibilities should be higher um I do you want a lower percentage on a big dollar value still you a 2% raise on a higher salaried employee you can be higher than a 15% raise on a lower salary employee so when you're getting 2% on 150 it's different than 2% on 50 40 30,000 um and they did that this we went through that we did a sensitivity compression or all that and it helped to try and balance that out I got a comment card here uh Angela Raymond uh Council we okay to good thank you please come forward anela Raymond resident 704 Silla Court K canaval I think this is a bit outrageous and the reason why I think it's so outrageous is it's a few months overdue number one this always was done in the month of June evaluations go out May 31st is the deadline for council members to have their evaluations ready I know for a fact because I've been around I was on Space Coast Le of cities and Florida Le of City and I went to the meetings on a regular basis and I've been around I've spoken to many mayors and assistant Mayors and council members and Todd Morley is very very well known in the area he can get a job anywhere he has been offered the position at Coco Beach several times we are lucky to have him still here in K canaval I think that um constant L I've been watching C circular reasoning and I'm tired of it you if you can't make a decision you need to prepare ahead of time make a decision in a timely fashion I mean most of the people have left here today because things cannot be made in a timely decision preparation helps constantly kicking different um subjects or different decisions down kick it down till the next month till the next month till the next month I'm for as a resident I'm tired of it and I'm embarrassed by it I think that with proper research you have a month or so or time to research prepare think about it come up with an exact figure that you think is fair and then vote on it in a timely fashion thank you and I'd like to apologize to our city manager because I think he's done a great job thank you okay back to the council Mr Mayor yes mayor PR Tim um after thinking about it and looking over these numbers I I think I think he deserves more than a 2.9% or 2.69% raise I withdraw my motion for the 156 896 and that I have made the motion you seconded it so I'll withdraw okay it requires unanimous consensus to withdraw a motion otherwise it needs to be voted we any opposed to withdrawing the motion I have no opposition to that consensus thank you and I make a motion we pay him 16,44 which would be a 5% raise do we just want to do I'll second what was the number again hear it 16414 there there's I think there's like 8 cents I rounded down whatever 5% is a 10 um I can do the math real quick here 52776 time 1.05 is 16,41 14480 that is what you said in the I'm sorry city manager what what was the Cent I got the number 80 80 cents 80 thank you that's that's exactly a 5% raise okay I second it got a motion by mayor per Tim Kellum and seconded by council member Davis for a 5% raise I'm ready and to and to accept the review or the with that any further discussion on This concerns I would just like to make sure going forward in the future when we talk about metrics that we get from you what's their budget cuz because I can't compare this what is the what's the City's population what's their budget and what is the salary because I keep hearing well but these numbers aren't right and you know and I'm looking at population and amenities and Indian Harbor Beach is closest to what we are I can't judge I can't judge this with what I've got so it' be helpful to have what budget do they have because if I have a if I have a a $190 million budget I can pretty much pay my city manager what I want it will help me for next year this is the same information that was provided last year and last year we asked for okay well I was in here last year and Melinda prepared most of this before she left so I updated what I could and it was in the folder for the last several months so if you guys wanted that information all you had to do was ask me I've had several months to sit on this and prepare any additional information I would have been happy to well I wasn't here last year to ask right but they've been in the budget they've been in the folders for the last three meetings in the packet so if you wanted that information I would have been happy to reach out and get it for you well I'm asking for it for next year noted okay thank you further discussion okay city clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison against council member Willis for okay motion passes 4 to one which brings us to we are on item number 13 mayor resolution 20 2402 um let for the sake of time got we're at 9:44 we're going to need to pull our head out of this stand here and look out um mayor per Tim Kellum if you don't mind can you take the gavel I need to Quick restroom break and just work us through this resolution um 2024 I was going to say I could O2 and anyone else uh I think we should keep the meeting moving if we can break and keep things moving no I do not okay excuse me and anyone who else uh I'll be back can we just take a break everyone looks like it's popular you want to take a quick break like everybody's leaving losing our okay let's take a as fast as possible we'll all try to reconvene in the next five minutes time I know I'm still in this there as soon as I can that that's a legitimate people [Music] don't believe word he says gave me the G and everybody left [Music] [Music] think I'm like we can't really afford but I guess everyone needed to okay we're all kind of stringling back in here we want to wait we do have a a quorum technically and for the sake of time we're 12 minutes out let's go ahead and uh call the meeting back to order is council member Jackson somebody sees her out there please flag her and let her know we're going to get going I do think we need to make a um a decision on well we've got how many open items two resolution number uh third or uh 20 2402 item number 13 and then item number 15 um I can I think it's item number 15 is going to obviously I don't I don't think we have enough time I did have some comments there but um yeah I think we would have to uh um yeah I I really would like to come together before then um let's just we're not going to get to this tonight no matter what uh unfortunately but that's okay let's we got resolution 20242 amending Define contribution retirement plan for the general employees of the City of Cape Canaveral we've seen this one a few times I don't know if there's been any change es from the last one to this one same information okay Council um I think we had held off on this because we really wanted to understand the budget I think this adds roughly another 990,000 um which is included in the so there's no uh no implications on needing to to increase the taxes but we would need a budget for 90,000 ongoing and I think that would grow that that's correct sir so this was included ever since Council kind of landed on N raising the non um participating contribution from 7 to 9% there was a lot of scenarios we talked about but that hasn't moved it turned out that was the only thing uh the council's been talking about not changing anything except that 7 to n that's that number has been put in the budget that we've been looking at for these last few months so it if you approve it at 9% no additional expenses will be incurred that you haven't seen and that number will in the next year will go higher as salaries increase potentially but some employees will come in new employeers and lower rates so that it could change okay and the major decisions here we have a percentage change from 7 to n for the non-elective contribution so that's the 401 account and then the other one is currently at a three 3% and there's no change there that's the elective contribution at three that's the match so all in if it would be roughly 12% and that's and then they would add their own 3% for the city to get in up to they can do one to three they can do I'm sorry it's a match of one to three so they can do 1% 2% or 3% and we'll match up to three correct and mayor I just want to point out and the City attorney pointed out to me that the original resolution that was prepared for this had some older numbers in it that we need to address um okay so if we could go to the resolution Mia right it's also yeah to look at those numbers with the vesting schedule is that what you're talking about attachment seven I'm talking about the proposed resolution 2004 D yeah it's highlighted the changes it says it on the very end about I think it's attachment seven yep yep attachment what I'm just oh all right I see yeah those are the amounts and then the vesting schedule and those num those numbers need to be changed right to to reflect if we yeah if we make the contribution changes those would need to be changed and then we had already previously was told to change the resolution to reflect the vesting and the um immediate into at 6% so that verbage had already been changed yes that if you don't mind um the elimination of the the vesting period and after 6 months from one year to 6 months reducing that schedule if you go into scroll down like to the other pages I think it's a page two okay so on the so that and then the matching contributions mhm so the Box check that says at the bottom of the screen that you're showing uh immediate vesting and currently it's at the stepped up is this the right resolution I think what this one shows is it's an attachment shows all the changes and then it's really the same as the original resolution attachment 7 there's two copies yeah there's two copies of the resolution in the agenda item there's one copy that has highlighted uh the 7 to 11% the 3% 5% and the recital that's the original one Melinda had prepared so we highlighted it to show that if we go to the 9% it we'd have to change that to the 9% so until until a decision is made we haven't made those those percentage changes and she also had 100% of the employees Basics which cannot exceed 5% we would have to change that to 3% so mayor what what we're saying is this document hasn't changed but the council has landed on 9% and 3% some month ago so what we would need to do is for the first one where it says 11% that would be changed to n the second one where it says 5% that would be changed to three service on the next page and then I want to also talk about the vesting um Mia is showing it there at as the bottom immediate vesting but that's upon the service condition it'll go on the third page which is on the next page three right here six months of service as an otherwise eligible employee so immediately upon 6 months of service so that's the end of of the probationary period and what that means it's 100% at 6% 6 months well that's what service condition is when they can enter the plan instead of having to wait the one year yeah yes correct that's better said thank you what's that that's better said thank you okay so it's really three numbers and then the vesting right um two numbers 11 goes to nine five goes to three yeah five would go back to the three because Melinda had originally changed that to five for the original proposal well no I was saying uh from what exists today and then the vesting today is not [Music] shown well in that I don't think it would be that form um the the vesting for me um I I do have a hard time with that one um I don't understand that uh I know that I we saw I think some data I don't know if it's in yep right there attachment six uh yeah there's a one two three couple four five have zero I assume those are the same as six rounded to or immediate vesting is how I would interpret MH um and yes with the average at 3.7 I mean I just I think getting three years of service is the goal uh and today they work five years but I guess if this was to pass all city employees overnight would become 100% fully vested to the extent that they've contributed money and the city's contributed money yes there any there I guess there are employees that have not received retirement benefits and some may not elect to contribute at all there's no match there but the non-elective non-elective is there beginning at six months right Natalie in this current the non-elective contributions begin at six months they would in this situation yeah so at 6 months there's nothing in the kitty yeah but if somebody's been with the city for say three years they've two and a half years that they would work two more years and become bully vested this would say over 9 they're immediately vested yeah at 6 months they would become if they've been here for long they've been here three years right but they would they would become vested but 9% or the 9% of that little tiny portion that they've gotten from the city for well if they make $100,000 it's $90,000 right but they're only getting 9% per paycheck it's not like they're getting 100,000 in their first week in their first paycheck you know it's going to have to acrw still yeah but I mean we're doing 9% we're doing 7% today so just say they would just be entitled to it if they left they wouldn't forfeit it they wouldn't forfeit it but I'm saying if you if it is $100,000 for easy math it today it's 7% and so that'd be three years worth of Don three years worth of contribution which would have accured $21,000 and so that is now they would have to work for a couple years that becomes immediately available that one out of the two is where I have I think a bigger I do I've always thought and I think that most of the Cities five five there's a 10e at Eatonville I me that's the one that's changing that's why it's highlighted in red they're changing on 101 but we're at five I mean we're com we're competitive I mean it the average was 3.7 and yeah yeah I I I I'm I don't want to mess with that for now that the immediate vesting I think uh but as far as the percentage goes I I mean that's a combined percentage of 99.1% of non-elective and elective the nine yeah so we're at 10:00 [Music] um refresh me here um the meeting is adjourned unless as's a super majority vote to extend the council can extend by Time by agenda item your prerogative I'll make a motion to extend to complete this item I'll second got a motion by council member Willis second by mayor Pro Tim to extend any further discussion on extending to complete this item to complete this item to complete this item only because we used this on me a couple of weeks ago and I'm I'm ready to be out of here so um I'm ready to use it on you guys if you can use it on me I can use it on you so you tell me it's this item and we're not going how long is this extension going to be because I'm going to use that same rule I think until this item is completed it leaves it open and that's an issue um it was the first time I've ever seen it used yeah in all the City Council meetings I've been to and that's why I'm I'm I'm not willing to stay up here all night long for this can we extend it 15 minutes why don't we extend it to 10:30 and then go from there you're going to get a you're going to get a no out of me cuz y'all wouldn't do that for me the last time and it was storm water I was talking about we wouldn't extend it past 10:30 is what we didn't do well not you you wouldn't give I was right in the middle of describing the issue and y'all wouldn't do that so if we're going to if we're going to do this we're going to be we're going to do it okay again we didn't extend it past 10:30 this is 10:00 we're extending it past 10:00 to 10:30 okay that's what I suggest so the uh yeah I would like to resolve it quickly my my uh all we're doing is extending we can take action at at that time city clerk council member Davis can I make it clear where this is the open end this item only this item only it's for this item only without a time limit thank and then the meeting automatically adjourns and I don't get a chance to do reports or anything yeah yeah I I'm not I don't want to do I did want to say one thing but if I don't get say it that's fine that's the motion I don't like that motion well I'll withdraw the motion okay so we need to anyone oppose to withdrawing the motion consensus on withdraw I I kind of am considered that's the motion made and it's been bullied so um just because you know you you think that because you say you don't want it we have to do that so I'm not going to I think we should keep the motion well the motion stands it did um okay uh I I I don't support the the motion um so we can just let it fail uh because we didn't have unanimous consent to extend majority you need four oh a super majority yes okay I mean I know uh councilman Jackson you're upset from the other time but you have to consider we have been pushing this off from month to month to month the staff needs deserve to know and we deserve to get it done for them storm water has been pushed off for years let's extend the meeting and we can debate topics so I I'm going to vote against this and we'll just do a new motion okay A Time motion council member Willis I think you tried to withdraw it but we needed unanimous or super majority okay extend unanimous to withdraw right we didn't have unanimous to withdraw so city clerk council member Davis I work for council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison against council member Willis maybe I don't know what I'm on okay so that that's a super majority right correct okay just that was just to withdraw the motion though however right no that was that was then I just extended it and I didn't want to well I wanted a timed extension I I mean it's I'm learning about that don't you think we could fix this in 15 minutes is yes we can the issue in front of us is uh We've looked at it several times my comments have been uh wait till the budget's ready we don't have the budget right that's my pause we these numbers are not up to date because we don't know um this the comparison of cities are some are good some of them I think are going to and so it's always a kind of a difficult circumstance however this is more information Natalie than than I think years past that so I want to thank you and it wasn't any fairness to the former it just really I think every year we're asking for more and digging in and um yeah just appreciate it but I know it's tough and it's a moving Target either way um I sort of you know the agenda envisioned this going through once we got to handle on the budget and that's you know we got two budget hearings I don't want to keep bringing this up I don't know what if we said we wanted it back at this meeting or not but the issue after it the discussion item um is one that I think we should have talked about um and so and we moved the city manager which I think was the biggest time down that would have been tackled first uh and so we have these decisions I'm fine with with moving forward but I do it with a little bit of I don't have a we haven't seen the final numbers on the budget or there's there's some big changes still in those numbers we haven't had a chance to line it up um tonight we're looking at a CRA that was $400,000 off and that's that's a lot of money right it that's certainly enough to pay for this for four years but it so I don't I sort of feel like this is the fifth or sixth time I think we've taken this so it feel like I sort of have to to go forward with this but I don't recall trying to ask for this and I don't know why it reached the priority on the agenda before we got through the budget hearings this was the desire of other council members who wanted it fine I certainly respect it or the city manager who believes it's in the best interest to get this done I respect that too Mr Mayor just to remind you we don't have a a motion to extend past 10 o'clock we haven't made it we have a motion to spend it till we finish done is complete my my mistake that's okay I apologize all good okay that's all I had to say um I don't I don't I think if this motion was Rewritten to say nine or seven I'm sorry to the changes we said uh which was 7 to 9 11 I'm sorry the changes we said might not this is n getting late 7 to n 3 to 3 7 to n 3 to three and then the vested with a budget in front of me I think and we can make that work which I know the budget proposed has it but we're not done finding expenses there to cut we made some and we don't have the final numbers I'm I'm okay with that uh unless council members have concerns I'm okay with the increase I do have an issue I would rather hold off on the vested but I'm willing to learn more more about that I just always thought that you wanted um you wanted to promote uh staying with the the city and over time you build up but if that's not mayor can I address that yes sir um this was one of the recommendations that was brought to us by Mr buttons with uh the administers program for us he brought it as a way to um attract and retain new Young talent because a lot of the other cities are already doing this this immediate vesting thing and what he told um Natalie and Melinda was the the cities that have the the one to five year vesting period increasing over are very fewer far further between this is a more modern approach to attracting and recruiting talent and that's why we moved it forward we didn't think of this this was recommended by him but so he said few far in between this data becoming becoming less frequent okay so the new trend the new trend yes yes sir that was the idea brought forward new trends have risks y I I don't I I like it I get it of course it makes sense there's no one younger I guarantee you uh if you're you're older you're going to like 100% bestest it I don't think it's a just it's a more competitive um and a very uh nice thing to offer um that's all my comments I would like to to see the budget but I don't want to continue to bring this back um I don't think I don't need to discuss it anymore we've discussed it so for me I would hold uh and and can we just approve it with the budget I mean that that's I do we know why this came back I guess I'm um I was asked to put it on by John Deo so and the council just was keeping it in front of them and they said we like last month when we heard this we said we don't have to make decision on this this month we could push it off to next month and and that's that's why it's here yeah I maybe I I didn't think month to month it was want let us get through the budget what I did think month-to month was Phil Mo and Jackson and code and those issues in those departments and so like after the c meeting you guys would make the decision so what you have I'd like to make a motion that we accept resolution 20 24-02 with the 9 and 3% excuse me and the immediate vesting I said that right right and then changing the pardon and changing the the nine the to be able to go in at 6 months well that's what I I thought not the vesting but the um yes plan entry yes I'll yes from one year to 6 months six months I agree thank you I'll second I have a question Mr Mayor got a motion by uh Council let me give this uh member Davis and the second by council member Willis before going to May for Jim Callum city clerk did you hear the motion AC with 3 to n and immediate vesting and go in at six months I mean I don't know if you want to make a a motion like that I don't what would be the proper wording for your six months it was pretty much as written is your motion right that well I just wanted to make sure the nine and three were changed but other than that it would be as written go to page three the other way service condition oh sorry box yeah amend there service condition six month service six months of service as and otherwise okay and that's fine as written reduction of the service condition from one year to 6 months mayor I understand the motion to be increase the non participative from 7: to 9 leave the part participative at 3 no change um immediate vesting and service entry at starting or plan entry starting at 6 months that's fine that's how I understand the motion y got it and that was your intent I think yes that's fine okay mayor per Tim Kellum I just had a question on the the 9 to3 we don't have a budget impact for that no seven to nine or S to nine I'm sorry yeah the budget impact it was in back to the May meeting it was the 9,605 and then adding the additional six those employees that would have impacted it um it was the 3,000 it's in my notes here's we had given you that other additional information there was like a onetime $112,000 fee and then an additional 3,000 a month added onto that the 3380 and that's only if everybody does 3% additional on their own 457 so that would be the worst case scenario okay thank you have a second yeah yes okay I I don't think that's I'm ready to support that one uh I think the percentages seem to be okay but again I don't I don't know the final number on the budget yet and I want to be able to take the final number and then say now add 90,000 a year um do I think it's more important some other expenses yeah I think I could get in there and find other expenses that and so that's why I'm leaning towards it right I I know the value of this and so um council member Willis wasn't that included in our budget it's been in there all along on the 9% okay so where we're at with our budget book today and what will show up on September 3rd will already reflect this but we haven't passed the millage rate I'm sure we will soon have to by law yeah yeah and the budget and I'm saying though my I'm just going back to the original we said we want to get to the budget and know the numbers and I don't know what the total budget number is it's moving quite a lot right now and uh I did not want to this just keeps coming back at us and I think it's the the the goal there mayor was so that uh financial services staff would be able to bring you a a budget now reflective of everything at for the two hearings in September without any guessing about what's going to happen on this yeah but this is easy to add in or take out it's the rest of the budget that's if if the rest of the budget is ready that I don't think it is though so it's not they're not just waiting I think on this number that this is a part of it but we would already have we thought this would be a good time to to bring bring this home to roost at this point in time okay motion second on the floor any further discussion I I think we can find areas to if we need to to make this work and the the vested uh like I said I it's kind of bundled here I like part of it I don't like the vested right now I'm not comfortable with that um so I I would have to vote i' I'd like to vote for um keeping that the same I would support all that but I think to increase the percentage and then to move it up that hard on a new trend is not responsible right now until that City shown we're not can we go ahead with the we're not outside we're under the discussion for the item and there was no time limit on this and we can we pass the numbers so that that we can move forward with the budget and then pick up the vesting thing at the budget hearing once we know the numbers and I mean it's not going to go into effect till October anyway right I just think that's making it confusing I mean we have this well if we this is what we want then we will make sure the budget reflects it you know you're considering that we're going back to rollback I'm not for rback so you know we have to consider that as well so I still think we should just do the motion as is okay fine and I I mean I don't support any of it I I would like to go below roll back rate I want to I want to it's not this is getting passed before the budget is and so we're late I'm done with this item I really don't want to even discuss it anymore I'd rather talk about what I believe the major priorities are is uh the January 2024 special City counc meeting where I think we take that's getting good care of our employees and I am for uh every year trying to do something uh and be competitive but um yeah so I I don't support this uh because we want to rush it and get it through um there that's that's how I feel can we take the vote Yes I'm ready any further the discussion I'm the same on the vesting I'm not sold on that because that was that is a new trend you're talking about or city manager is talking about it being a new trend we don't even know if that's really going to make a difference um that was always used in an opposite way so the vesting I'm curious about that too just because you're coming in fully vested basically so wish we could split the vesting off to later too but if we're not and that's not the motion then it it just multiplies it uh it moves it five years up and four and a half and two little percentage points and that is a big big difference than just doing the percentage um any other question or comments May protim colum council member Davis Willis Jackson I'd like to separate the vesting too so I don't know where we go from here and we I will vote that by itself if if it's important and and we need to do that uh I just don't we're doing this before the budget I could vote on all of it at the at the first or second budget hearing once we get an indication on it but for tonight I'm fine with voting the nine and 11 the motion on the table is pretty much as written as we heard earlier there's no further discussion say this would be you know that the employees are a priority and that we could find the money for the in the budget did you indicate that earlier I I said that I believe that this is a a a higher priority than some of the items in the budget and yeah I think we could but I did not I we haven't got all the numbers done yet and so uh if the motion to we could do a motion to amend the main motion to separate it is that what you want yeah that sounds okay who made the motion though I did yeah but if you're you can make a motion to to the main motion a motion to amend the main motion okay I'll make a motion to the main motion not to include the vesting I'll second got a motion to amend the main motion to not include the vesting right so the motion is to approve the resolution that's the original main motion the amendment is not to include the vest the proposed change to the vest okay good any further discussion on the the amendment we're we're voting V on the amendment first correct okay voting on the first one no the amendment the amendment okay the amendment to the motion okay okay city clerk council member Davis against council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis four motion to amend the main motion passes 4 to one back to the main motion any further discussion as amended back to the motion as amended city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson for the seven and the yeah separated this is for it separated this is to go from seven to nine and keep the three at three okay four May Tim Kellum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis four motion passes 5 as amended mayor would you like us to bring back the vesting item or just waiting for further direction from Council on that I think uh right around the first or second budget hearing we can bring it back at the absolutely yeah we'll bring it back U either one of those whatever is most appropriate thank you mayor thank you okay Council um the motion was to adjourn immediately had never been here before it was to complete the motion was to extend to complete this item okay with that meeting adjourned reports