It's Wednesday We are 100 Polk Avenue here in the city of Cape Canaveral at the City Hall council chambers for a special meeting I called this meeting to order And with that Councilmember Jackson would you please lead us in the pledge I pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all Thank you and thank you all for being here City clerk please call the roll Council member Davis Councilmember Jackson Mayor Pro Teim Kellum Mayor Morrison Council member Willis Thank you and thank you council and staff for all being here and all who are in attendance here today this time uh if you do intend to speak I want to work and thank you sir If you uh please fill out a public uh or speaker card at the front here and bring it forward and we'll make sure that you're heard We will uh Go ahead and move on to the approval of agenda as written or with amendments we have one item for action tonight Counsel any changes we'd like to see Make a motion to approve as written I'll suck At a motion by council member Willis seconded by Councilmember Davis Any further discussion seeing non-city clerk Davis Council member Jackson Mayor Pro Teim Kellum Mayor Morrison council member Willis or OK this time public participation I do have two comment cards and for those of you who are listening at home we ask that you please raise your hand and uh after those who are here with us today have a chance to speak We'll go to you and make sure you're heard We have 3 minutes on the clock the uh little device in front of me has 3 lights when it's green please uh go ahead and speak and then when the yellow light comes on it's about 30 more seconds We do ask that you please wrap it up uh when the red light comes on at the end the 3 minutes and uh with that those same rules apply for those participating online Thank you all for attending virtually as well The uh first card I have here is Miss Teg Schaller Um Yes and uh Ms Tamara Malbeck Can you hear me OK All right great Um on Tim Mobu and I'm a resident here I'm retired I've spent 35 years in human resources My specialty was employee relations uh leadership development and investigations I've investigated complaints from frontline employees all the way up to vice presidents Um honesty and integrity and ethical behavior is a non-negotiable for me and it should be for every single person on the city council I've sat through this um Watch this code enforcement debacle and watched you all in city council members sit mute while the mayor has been hung out to dry And um it should I'm that's baffling to me as it is Um early on this was a performance issue with Chris Robinson That's the bottom line And the city should have taken action then months over a year ago 1 year and a half ago over 1 year and a half ago Um however we spent so much time money resources and energy trying to prove that code enforcement had done nothing wrong Um this so-called investigation by the city manager That's incredulous He went into by making the statement there are no bad actors in this How much more bias can you be His findings smokescreens misdirecting when asking direct questions is actually quite impressive Um Here are some of the euphemisms the city manager has used in his findings to describe lies deceit unethical behavior Incorrect statement a misstatement incomplete statement poor record keeping not accurate a mistake appears to be inaccurate and on 524 23 cast doubt on accuracy and reliability of the code osman officer Um so the city manager if you can't say it and call it what it is Then you can't fix it Why is 524 23 so important One lie begets another lie Records get manipulated and finally city staff had to resort to planting evidence Planting evidence Why Because they needed to show there was no retaliation for the November dates on 6/16 NOV date for days after Peig Shaer in Bearssri Robinson by sending photos documenting that he lied Who planted this evidence Brian Palmer Dave Dickey Todd Morley A city council you all should be demanding answers The good old boy network is alive and well in Cape Canaveral and City Council You better fix it Thanks for letting me have an opportunity Thank you If anyone would like to speak online uh please raise your hand We'll make sure that you are heard OK seeing no hands raised and if anybody did intend to speak please raise your hand Seeing none we'll go ahead and close uh public participation portion of the meeting back to the council uh the First item for action and only item for action tonight is a special meeting uh is to accept the completion of the city manager's recommendation for the report of findings regarding the community and economic development department roles responsibilities and actions Pro properties located at Fillmore in Jackson Avenue And with that her I think city manager has prepared in a an agenda item summary here to help pick up where we left off Um If if you'd like to go over and maybe Get us started here Sure thank you Mayor Um so if we could move on Mia to the agenda item Mm OK so this is um a document that we've seen a few times It's been updated Uh there's 5 items for Fillmore 5 items for Jackson um and so we're right now looking at the Fillmore if we could scroll to the next page There's item 1 item 2 number 3 number 4 and number 5 down at the bottom This is city manager and city attorney present any findings and or opportunities in a report to be distributed to the city council on ways the city can improve our community development department That's the the substantive thing we're going to be talking about today So over there it says see attachment to opportunities to improve the community development department as it relates to the building department to be presented at this special council meeting So Mayor if it's OK I'll just go straight to that document Please thank you All right so this one much like the one we did for code enforcement this is also the same format um So I'm just gonna just gonna skip through it a little bit here but um I want to hit some important parts During the January 24th Special City council meeting City council reached consensus on a number of tasks one of which to present any findings and or opportunities to be distributed coil way City can improve community development department specifically building department concerns related to the construction project on Fillmore And the addresses are there resulting from the meeting a review was undertaken to understand what building department actions may have contributed to the concerns The review involved interviews by the city manager with the former building official Mike German and department director David Dickey um a report of findings was produced on May 7th 2024 The reported findings helped to frame what happened in an unbiased objective manner the report did not include recommendations The recommendations are included in this document and they're built upon the findings of that previous effort So they're repasted here and also included our additional observations and analysis which support the recommendations So the document is presented in two sections One is clarification and summarization of each finding with the associated determinations of root cause and then number 2 is the recommended actions So moving right on to section one the first finding and again this is a restatement from the report of findings uh City Code section 110 223b2 requires site plans to be submitted to the city engineer the building and code enforcement department fire marshal and public works Services department The site plan transmittal from staff did not include the building and code enforcement department However in August 26 2020 memo was emailed by the city engineer to the community and economic development director and the building official which included the city engineer's comments on the site plants of metal This would indicate that the building official was aware that a site plan was being reviewed for the project Additionally on September 22 2020 the public works director sent an email to the engineer of record the building official and others indicating that he had completed his review of the project which was the site plan So on the root cause side there the building official did not review the site plan prior to it being approved However he would have likely known there was an engineered site plan because the city engineer and the public works director had included him on their emailed comments So uh he didn't review it but he should have known that there was one Um and of course he's the former building official and he's no longer here Moving on to finding number 2 between August 1722 and October 6 22 the COs were issued without any signed statement from the engineer of record and the city engineer as noted in the um CEO application checklist To this the building official stated that he was unaware of the city code section 110 221 which required an engineered site plan For 4 or more residential units and therefore an engineer record He later clarified that he interpreted he interpreted this code section to apply only 4 or more attached residential units are proposed And he viewed this development as for town homes which are single family residences under the Florida Building code Also building officials stated he was unaware of the noted section on the CO application was intended to be used to reinforce City Code Section 110221 um as it relates to 4 or more residential units So on the root causes of that the building official he issued the COs without any signed statement from the engineer of record and the city engineer as noted in the CEO application checklist And the building officials stated he was not aware that the section of the seal application was intended to assist with compliance with city code section 110221 so that's where it was missed at the the last catch And Finding number 3 On October 5 2022 the former city engineer conducted a site inspection at 3306 Fillmore Avenue at the request of the pending owner and provided a memo to the building official and the department staff indicating that the detention system had not been constructed properly Building official claimed to have not read the city engineer's email until October 7th and the seals were issued on October 6th without the building officials awareness of the issue This underscores the need for the building official to understand the requirement for an engineer of record and the associated requirement for all site work to be completed for the entire site prior to issuing any of the COs So under root causes the building official as he stated held a different opinion of the code section and by the time the building official acknowledged having read the email all four of the CEOs had been issued Finding number 4 even though the CO checklist includes areas for documenting approvals related to the site the building official indicated that he accepted verbal approvals from the city engineer and the public works director on two separate instances regarding site compliance related to the stormwater system Probable approvals of major site inspections do not provide adequate documentation and reliability So to this again poor record keeping is the root cause And those are the findings and the root causes Mayor that I was able to determine them determine them um for me to move on to recommendations Council OK Um first retain the services of an experienced building official charged with enforcing applicable codes and Natalie we do have an announcement on that front We do have a building official starting and what's the start date August 1 And secondly um create and expand our standard operating procedure manual to establish additional important operational procedures and guidelines to improve the department's performance The SOPs will address such issues as proper and complete routing for all site plan reviews to include a checklist for ensuring that all appropriate site plan reviewers have been provided with appropriate review documents that the site plan reviewers have submitted their appropriate review comments or approfful documentation Um and that all site plan review or approval documents are to be included as an attachment in the planning and zoning board agenda packet Uh also pro proper usage of the CO applications to ensure all code requirements are met prior to issuing COs Proper documentation of plan revisions and documented decisions Proper documentation of all inspection results and lastly internal coordination between the building official inspectors plans examiner city engineer planning department fire marshal and other officials and agencies involved in the site plan completion subdivision and Completion and final approvals Mayor and those are our recommendations My recommendations Thank you Uh just a technical issue I got a note here I would confirm we don't have audio issues um The listeners at home I think we might have hopefully it's it's not for everyone but if there's anything that can be done to verify that Um it just be my request Uh thank you Mr City manager Appreciate it council Councilmember Willis He It appears to me that Majority of personnel issues if not all the personnel issues have taken care of themselves With uh The City manager's direction Um but I would like to make a motion that we accept the report And his recommendations and I would also like to uh Make a motion that we accept the proposed reorganization That was listed in our budget I believe that will eliminate some of the uh issues that we had with overwhelmingly a department A second OK got a motion by councilmember Willis and seconded by Councilmember Davis uh Council member well let's just to make sure there is Do you want to do the uh those motions separately or do you want to do them together I would like to do them together OK and you intended to second both motions just making sure you OK and those are to accept The the report today And the proposedg of organizational charts shown in the latest budget OK OK The proposed budget Proposed budget yes OK got it uh I I just With all of the vacancies that we now have on staff I think it's time to move forward OK city manager there were a couple other recommendations One was for um the SOPs to be completed and distributed to council and also for contract code enforcement officer OK so we've got a motion a second on the floor I think city manager raised two others that might we don't want to fall through the cracks Um can we as a discussion with the motion on the on the floor uh just Help get on the same page with what you are would like for us to do when I read the agenda item it says to accept the completion of the city manager's recommendation for the report of findings So is that Um well there there were 22 documents of recommendations There's this one and there was the one on the code enforcement on Jackson which was presented a couple weeks ago OK So just for clarity are we accepting both of those reports of recommendations Well the I guess my question is is What does except mean as simple as that sounds I wanna make sure we understand what we're doing today Um it helps bring finality to the effort OK So It's not necessarily approving Or is it I do not view accepting as approving And so I just want to make sure intent matches up with yours is Are you asking us to approve Um or just accept that yes we received it and and yes we've acknowledged it Well my my request for it was to accept it but I can't speak for the council member who's made the motion And that's all I wanted OK so uh Whether or not we we support the specific recommended actions is separate to what except means City attorney is that Um Reasonable There are there are a couple of issues yes on on the on the floor I guess one is to accept the report and the other is Mm-hmm 5 issues that play Style of the agenda item says except the completion of the city what he that but except this as you said Mayor is The council is just accepting it Receiving That was the intention of using the word for OK I'm not exactly clear what except except to receive or accept as acceptable And I it I think your intent Councilmember Willis was on the two motions Or the one motion for the two items I'll say um I Can I just add maybe we can make an amendment to the motion that um I mean it appears last time that the council was against hiring a consultant so I would say we don't hire the consultant We accept the city manager's recommendation to have the one contract code enforcement officer complete the SOP documents and support the proposed organization for restructuring of the community economic development So if we could maybe amend and put that in there that would clarify all of it at once I think the restructuring should be separate because that's truly the part of the solution and we should be able to vote on that based on You know what we found and what we think Mhm Willis I'm gonna leave that as my motion OK As accepting the proposed reorg and except the reports But it doesn't mean we have to agree to hire a consultant OK code enforcement So to if if accept means received there's no denial Yes I've received the report And the motion on the floor is to do that The discussion I'd like to have is what we think about the report and then the if we're going to go back to Jackson uh sort of take a step back and and I'd like to respond to some of the comments that you made Councilmember Willis and and let the other council members have a chance And I also want to address some of the public comments that we heard today and so we've got a motion on the floor I think you want it to stand And then we'll circle back On the other amendments That Councilmember Davis raised However it works I just thought that we should include those if we want to vote separately or whatever that's fine OK And if we accept the report and then we don't like the recommendations or we have other ideas about the recommendations That means he's going to have to modify the report anyway Or modify the actions From the report Am I correct I would Yeah I think they're separate I and I think that that one agreeing accepting the report um And and all of the other uh decisions that come with it is Is what we're we're trying to figure out as far as the the way The accomplishment is that the recommendations which was a response to the January 20 7th or 24th meeting Thank you Memor Pro Tem Um This was one of the specific items 5 I believe um that that was responded to and so My hope is that we can talk through some of these responses and we have not as a council really had a a a chance I think to say have we received all the information now that we've got all the information what are our thoughts and to set to jump to the recommended steps I think is the right way to think about this because we want to come with solutions but that doesn't mean that we don't stop and discuss and if we do anything I hope That we can come to some sort of agreement of what the problems were Because I think if we were to all have conversations with residents and citizens and we were to all be asked individually what were the problems be very unlikely that we all say the same thing and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it is if we if we are all operating on on different information and so If if we Want to go ahead and accept I think that's fine I didn't necessarily view this item tonight needing any motion at all other than I mean technically we don't have to receive This isn't anything in our code that's requiring us I think we really wanted to receive the info and then Discuss it and so With this motion on the floor I want to respect the motion It's appropriate to discuss but I also don't want to hold the motion up if your intent is just to accept it Sure I'm not sure what that does or how that changes anything Um Questions I have um we got a letter today John Picar and It's he talks about and I think this is really part of the solution problems is he said in his letter there's a lot of gray areas in our city code phased out or or worked on to make things That's really important um What is gray what the what are the gray areas and how do we fix them If we just move forward and we still have the gray areas what are we accomplishing Um and then my other uh thing was um You know in um I I think I guess that's all I have right now uh But I think that I'm I'm not happy with the except accepting the Findings um Without you know or do we have all the answers that we need before we can move ahead Um Going back to Jackson Avenue or do we have all the answers there um I just think that we need more information before we just accept it and move forward I mean nobody we all need to move forward This needs to come to some kind of conclusion But you know just this letter today Makes me think that you know back at the The center of this problem is city codes that are gray areas That's how did that all get started you know that's what I'm thinking Uh Mr Mayor I agree with the city code gray area statement um But accepting the report Of what the city managers found and if we can move forward with the reorg so that the budget can be finalized with that So we get some idea of what that would be but Any any of these recommendations that city managers made is going to shed light on gray areas of code and we can look at those It doesn't preclude us from doing any of that And I think we should because as SOPs are updated It's going to point out Code problems We're going to see them And I think That would be just a uh A good result from it From the SOPs being updated Do we need to vote on the reorganization and accepting the report at the same time I mean Well I would like to see both of them I would like to see the realorg happen Well The reorg The truth though is that I view this is more administrative like we we don't we don't approve I think the org chart our city manager does We approve the city manager one of the places And so these decisions these recommendations are not like recommendations from PNZ where we're the binding authority that's going to make the vote These are decisions that our city manager has the authority to make and he is recommending I view this To get potentially feedback from us but ultimately it's it's His decision to make and I appreciate the the transparency and I do think it's healthy under these circumstances to get feedback from the council and I do not think moving forward with the org chart that's a budgetary item that we would we haven't ever voted on approving the org chart in the past Why are we doing that but we're creating a new department In that org chart Well I think there's an ordinance process for all that to create if the council creates a new department And that to me is beyond um Well I mean I know the proposal that that you're you're talking about with the creation of the department in the budget and I I don't think that's The The conversation for tonight before discussing Why the things happened Uh The the statement about The most about The vacancies that have occurred Related to the individuals with some of the issues that we've heard tonight and that that's come back Is A point well taken But Until we understand Why And can see The the whole picture I don't I don't think We can say that's going to resolve it because I did the best to communicate in the last meeting that There's Issues and Around the entire Department And I'm not convinced that Well now that they're gone well that that's fixed I'm not so sure that even That Is Focused on on the on the root issues And so what we need to talk about I think is When we read this report that was provided Do we do we agree and see these as the root causes the root problems And if if we do then I would say let's go forward and let's let's move forward and I think We've heard issues we're aware of issues Until we can state The problem We we're going to be guessing on this the solution or or you know and I'd like to know where does the buck stop I mean truly where does the buck stop Because in all of the leadership roles I've had The buck stopped with me at the top And if my team didn't have the information that was needed or anything like that it's back on me as a leader So if we bring in new people and they're taught that to do business the same way How is that gonna change I it it in my world which isn't this is I'm new to city council but in my world you had to look at a deeper level look from top down you have to look and see what's going on This is what I've been doing going through BSNA and seeing what I'm seeing in there with those addresses that we've been dealing with as well as others And I think to make sure that this does not happen again to any resident in our city trying to deal with us business-wise that we can't just say because some employees left it's gonna fix itself That bothers me because I've never seen that happen before in my entire adult life in any business or government situation So we've got to find where those failures occurred Agree to them and Todd our city manager has done a good job giving us these things but like you said in the last meeting about this you said in those root causes nowhere did we see that they were looking at our code Nowhere were they looking at our statutes To me that's a training issue And so if we get new people in and we make no changes in the training of those people are we gonna expect them to do the uh to do a better job than what they're being taught at now So we have a bigger problem to me than just shuffling employees around Now that's just my personal opinion and I may be wrong However it makes it hard for me to accept finding someone to sho do a an organizational shuffle went until I've heard these things because I want to know what I'm seeing I want to know the as we see the root causes but to have true meaningful solutions we can't just move things move people around Um the SOPs are going to be a a good thing absolutely Got to have them don't know why we haven't had them but you know what are we gonna do to ensure that that knowledge is transferred To our staff that are working You know under our leadership Team So for me it's hard to move on and just accept it all without us digging deeper And I know we all want to have it resolved Um but I want it to be resolved where no one goes through this again That's just my opinion It's hard to do in one meeting Just accepting and moving forward with one report I think the reports of you know I'm appreciative of those that's pulled a lot of the stuff together for me city manager but I want to know that this isn't gonna happen again that it's not a bigger issue than just a couple of employees Thank you Council member Davis Well I think this has been a big learning process for all of us There have been mistakes We've recognized the mistakes we're trying to fix some you know um and we've seen the solutions and we've seen the problems throughout all of this This is nothing new to us so I think we need to move forward We don't need to go over the same things over and over and over again tonight um Because of the lessons learned I don't think it's going to happen again Last time the board was talking about bringing in a consultant None of you liked bringing in a consultant a consultant would be an outside person that could look at all this and tell us a neutral what neutral what they feel needs to be done or not done So council wasn't willing to accept somebody else's out you know information So what would you what do you what do you want I mean they're they've learned their lesson They're going over the SO they're doing all this different kind of stuff Different people have left They're going to reorganize They're they're doing everything that they know to solve this problem And I don't think we need to hash it and hash it Now if you don't want to call in a consultant and you know outside person then I don't want to hear anything about what what they're doing to fix this problem in the outside consultant that was mentioned in the prior meeting was absolutely to do an investigation of all of this not to make recommendations on How to repair it to investigate it Yes you go back and watch those meetings We I didn't want to pull in an independent investigator It's clear in our code that that's our job as council people and so to me we haven't discussed having a consultant come in to do the the to see where the problems lie and fix those We an investigation is different than a understanding was it was a consultant to come in As a code enforcement officer that could go out and and understand what's going on on the streets or on calls and different things and another person that could look at how it was organized and what may need to be changed or not changed I didn't see it as an investigation I saw it as an outside person consulting That's why a consultant not investigator consultant Well you even said we need an outside investigation because you didn't want anyone fired Those were your words in the meeting So to me that's an investigation you can show that then that's fine I don't know exactly what I said on the recording so that's different than a consultant making recommendations of ways we can improve our processes today I misspoke that's different to me You know I was speaking about a consultant I misspoke It was a consultant I was referring to so I apologize if I misspoke but I'm talking about a consultant If you don't want an outside consultant coming in not an investigator and outside to give recommendations then we have to accept what the recommendations are coming from our staff It's time to move forward We've we've hashed over all the problems all this you know anything that we can do to solve it It's not going to do us any good to say on such state this happened on such state this we've done that since what January beginning of the year We need to move on When did we do that When did we the council we've gone through and say on this date this happened on this date this last meeting in my eyes we've gone over what situations have occurred during each one The speaker said you know that Chad was using different words and all that Where did she get that from from our meetings and from Todd's report So we have gone over what they thought you know bad poor recording you know not knowing what the SOPs or whatever it may be don't quote me on it but we have gone over it So definitely of course I remember Receiving the Uh A 7th findings and the the meetings after uh last month and and obviously today is where they were Went through everything our city manager presented we had supportive staff to help fill in the blanks and we got the opportunity to question but For this council to say have we received it all I think today we've received a big part of of what was needed and then to go now that we have it all because the message earlier was let the city manager finish Let him finish Once he's finished we can go Well when it's finished in the last meeting I said I hope that that we don't go into another regular council meeting with this agenda item Causing pressure and we accomplished that if we've done anything I think we're all going to benefit from separating this out on its own But we let Our our city manager work through and finish uh as much as as he could And I believe we've been very patient and reasonable under the circumstances But That day is just really today and it's technically not Finished there's more still to come And so I don't know how to balance hey let them work to all right here it is and now let's move forward and not talk about it anymore I'm not saying that but what we've all got the agenda we've got the attachment we've got the report we've got the recommendations You've read it we've all read it we've seen it What do you want different from from this report or from this recommendation What what else are you looking for I have something I'm looking for I'm happy to I would like to discuss the fact that we're taking on an extra director's salary that'll be ongoing against taxpayers' money over something that we didn't do well to me you don't take on and extra salary Um at a director's level that's going to be there for who knows how long when we haven't fixed the problem Did you know we used to have 8 and we dropped it down to 7 and I agree but if that's the way that's gonna stop Excuse me I'm talking if that's the way we can solve our problems by getting the director and dividing that up so it's not so much on everybody then we then that's a solution and it's been budgeted and you interrupted me so now I'm gonna take my time back and just say this How how can you guarantee me that that's gonna fix everything How can you say it's not We often say it's not because until I investigate it get all of our options and all of us discuss it I'm not gonna put myself out there and say oh if we do this it'll fix it We can't guarantee anything you're willing to move forward and and when I just made mention that we're spending taxpayers' dollars for an additional salary that you just reiterated we had cut before that group out So Now as a council we're going to add it back in in a very lean and hard economic times on people you know which increases our budget on payroll Do you know we've spent a special a special meetings and all this over this situation So we need to you know solve it And if that's I believe that's a good solution to go back and and to use that way We've spent a lot of time a lot of staff's time a lot of the public's time Anthony's time our time everybody Time and money To do this So you know you can look at it both ways We can add this director that they used to have that was effective why they dropped it I don't know I'd have to ask but if we could go back to that then there's you know the responsibilities are divided In the meantime we can keep hashing this over and over and over and keep spending everybody's money and time I mean it goes both ways You can't guarantee anything that this will work uh anything will work You don't have a guarantee on on you know anything There's no guarantee that you look into the problems and get them identified the more chance that we have to do something about them so they won't happen again If you go back to business the same way you were doing it with broken up departments that we're hearing we got rid of that department already OK And it and so if we're going to add that back in I as a councilperson want to be assured that for our taxpayers' money of an on Going director's salary going forward in this city that we're gonna have this problem resolved And I don't think we're going to do it in an hour or less than an hour on a special meeting day So for me it would be a hard no to go forward unless we can discuss some of these things Well have you have you spoke to the city manager and and understand why he's made this recommendation Yes you should understand So I'd like to make sure we In the motion on the floor and and thank you for leading with the motion I do appreciate that and I do think if we can continue to do that As a council we're going to be better off So the motion is to accept and uh This and also the org chart proposed changes we're discussing that I do have some technical questions uh regards to Fillmore Avenue That would would be helpful um The Property owners Ask some questions throughout Their experience on Fillmore Avenue And one of them was about The contractors having a bond or some sort of financial security Performance bond I do not think there the residents received an answer And Also those same questions around Licensing and proof of insurance from the contractor on Fillmore Avenue I could not find There's documents And BSNA And maybe I overlooked them but my first question is was there any Financial bond or performance related security that was The contractor will Fillmore Avenue Ha If you want to respond to that please Great Yeah I think this I think the question about the surety or bond AKA bond is coming out of section 98-59 It's in our subdivision regulations I'm not sure if you're gonna if you have code books up there if you want to follow along I can read out of it for the benefit of the council and the Folks in the audience 98-59 And It's a subparagraph B And these are requirements for final plat approval There's 5 of them And as as the council may recall uh we brought final plaid approval to the council Probably about 3 years ago Um it went through planning and zoning board review and then it came here to the council and it was reviewed by all And again it says the following items shall be required for subdivision final plat approval And paragraph 2 says an irrevocable letter of credit Performance bond Or certified check In a form acceptable to the city attorney Which will enable the city to complete any unfinished improvements that are to be dedicated to the public Important language there Including but not limited to streets drainage facilities street signs sewer facilities sidewalks and other improvements as shown on the final plot So I would like to point out that Again I'm gonna emphasize To be to complete any unfinished improvements that are to be dedicated to the public That's important And generally I've worked in a few places that have had much larger Plats and subdivisions And typically with a large subdivision say it's 40 or 50 or 100 or 200 or 500 units These larger plats and subdivisions once they're complete many components of that project are dedicated to the public as this is indicating such as internal streets Such as internal sidewalks and utility poles And drainage facilities and stop signs and street signs These are all dedicated over to the public Once the project is complete And for that purpose a bond is typically and usually required Say if the developer goes belly up Or he does he or she just doesn't finish the public improvements that are required The surety bonds allow the city To come in With the with the posted funds and finish those improvements Um this project is a little different If you think about this project To complete any improvements dedicated to the public Think about that Which improvements in this project are going to be dedicated to the public There's no street signs There's no drainage facilities There's no streets There's no signage there's no Utility lines Anything like that So generally projects that larger projects this would be applicable to larger projects Um these smaller ones really aren't improvements to be dedicated to the city In this case Now it could be argued and I'll argue this one that a sidewalk is going to be dedicated to the public And there were sidewalks installed as part of this Now we have a different section of code Section 110-475G I'll repeat that in case everybody wants to document my words Section 110475G That's a section of code I know Mickey's familiar with this section of code It requires anytime a structure is built a sidewalk is to be installed That's that's in a different section of code So um we usually rely on that language in that section of code for sidewalk improvements Um So having stated all that Um The typical subdivision in Cape Canaveral is 345 units We really haven't done that many in 10 years I've been here we've probably done 3 or 4 maybe Platts subdivision plats Um and they've all been small 34 unit projects and none of these There hasn't been really any improvements dedicated to the city so my comment Mayor and to whoever what public is is is asking that question I've I heard that for the first time just a few days ago It's the question But um but that's my response Can I ask a question please let me just clarify absolutely So this question my question was did we get any type of bond and I think the answer is no The answer would be no since I didn't I this this section of code was not applicable OK This question was asked in the Fillmore Townhouse document that went back and forth between you and the Hearst family and it was 1234567 back back from I believe you and our city staff and team and for with the last not being I think Responded to but the question number 5 well it's not numbered it is the 5th question It talks about per discussion the landscape spoils are not accurate or adequate We are very concerned with the depth of the conduit to the unit since Florida Power and Light installed power prior to the developer digging the ditches Now this document was emailed I think to City council and and obviously city staff we've all seen this document's color coded but the question Go back and forth and The question on the bond I Have to find it What guarantee if so so the the question I read uh the swells are not accurate The response they received was that the city engineer and myself met with the builder on February 17th at the site to determine what needs to be done to resolve the storm drainage item We all agreed that the swell needs to be brought into conformity with what was originally approved by the city engineer We reviewed the approved drainage plan so we would all agree that what exists is not what was approved The engineer of record Allen Engineering is going to stake this swale To indicate what needs to be done to bring the soil into conformance with the approved plan the builder will contact the city engineer to inspect the soil when the necessary changes have been made They they they responded to that counter response was what guarantee if any does the city have for the developer to do the work The city holds no bond and all four COs were already issued against the city's engineer's recommendation has the developer given a time for corrections Uh is there a specific code city the city is enforcing or is it enforcing the plan issued by Allen Engineering We understand that John Piccar gave a number of solutions to fix the problem in his original letter telling the city not to issue the COs And then the response comes back uh from from our city and I just want to know that that's where the bond is being asked This was asked um On March 15 2020 3 About the bond The answer was that the Florida building code requires the builder to construct the specs of the approved plan and the permit documents please contact FPL for their installation standards and whether the lines were installed to their spec city records indicate that the drainage well was approved prior to FPL installation activities Note that the FP Florida Building code does not authorize the building official to require time frames more stringent than those provided in Florida Building Code 104 the engineer of record will be required to certify The completed drainage trails meets code requirements And then there's another response back asking again about the uh the ground cover and I do not see the bond question getting answered but this was a concern of the residents that we have these issues The CEOs are out What leverage does the city have to correct it And what you're saying is well if there were dedicated public improvements we actually have 98 whatever the section is that we could lean on but in these circumstances there's no public improvements including the stormwater inlet in the front apron of the driveway is not considered Public That Our director of public works uh weighed in on that the engineer designed said to expand that In the aftermath of the PNZ board meeting where folks who I see here today adamantly spoke in concern of the flooding on that property that this is 4 or more units requiring a site plan a drainage plan but now it's being called it's small There's no bond we needed but it's big enough for a site plan And so I'm really having a hard time in understanding Why The stormwater inlet in the front at a minimum and the special uh easements within the deed I believe our city attorney and all of us in that PNZ board meeting during the plating and talked about how this is different than other properties how this we Yes we have flooding concerns and it was really the the key point that I think Overcame at least in the PNG board's eyes they can speak for themselves The concerns that uh the Downings and Mr Benson brought forward that that night And so Yeah that was March 2023 They're saying hey these issues this is months after the I think December was when you were first brought into it and all of us First why wasn't the bonding question even answered And should we have gotten a bond with the stormwater inlet Maybe that's a question for our city attorney Because if the code you read is what applies It actually says the city attorney I think I assume would decide in a form acceptable too yeah the attorney did was this not Well I don't know if there are any um public improvements that would have been bonded Typically it's the engineer that would identify those public improvements that are unfinished and then a pro um by the developer Um in a form that is acceptable to the city attorney But whether or not there were any public improvements that were actually going to be aid to the city as part of this project Or any Um E performance bonds are for purposes of public improvements Does not accept performance bonds for improvements that are going to be uh private But the question is whether or not there was a public Improve They were unfinished So No that is not a gray area because that is very customary That When the city subdivisions performance bonds are related to public improvements performance bond is not provided to ensure the completion of construction For the private improvements Not the way it works If this was a subdivision with roads and Public drainage facilities and then all of those types of improvements would be certified um public improvements by the engineer with cost estimates substantiate the value of the performance bond related to the public improvements How it works Stormwater drain inlet is not a public Is it well let's decide Is that public or is that private The one in the street is public but it was previously existing and serving the public all that this project did was tie into it He had plans I believe expanded that dream For the for the tie in yes With the private tie in improvement It's in the public right away but it was just intended to um Accommodate this connection They own that private drain the residents there own that drain and they can go in and and maintain it on private property they own the portion on the private property yes The inlet in the front That's not on the private property the only one I'm talking about right now Yeah that that all that this property did was tie into that But that When you say tie in what we're talking about is they rip That out and they expanded that drain I mean a major expansion to that Facility that public facility But goes into that could support the engineering coals Same So when when David read Public improvements in the key of dedicated public improvement That is a how can that not be a dedicated public improvement That they were supposed to improve My understanding was and correct me if I've got this wrong Dave There's an existing storm inlet drain in the right of way And then off of that was supposed to be Some distance to the east another storm inlet box Um was to be installed to which the original line was going to connect to this new one in the right of way And then that one connects to the old one Which the older one was going to be covered over with a lid And then the driveway over top of that So if my understanding is correct That new box Only serves to relocate a connection point to the existing city storm inlet But But Private developer was just like sidewalks that we kind of level up there in a different part of the ordinance but That developer in this circumstance Property owner was to pay for that fill in the blank public or private improvement and I'm saying that's it Private Party paying for a public improvement It would appear that it's in the public right of way so yeah to the extent that it's in the right of way but it's only serving the one property You know it's not Attorney It can help I'm literally looking at that and you had asked to speak I'm sorry I just wanted to clarify that Oh no that's fine Um one thing that I'm I think maybe one of the gray areas we've discussed is the definition of subdivision because subdivision typically defines a community with roads and different you know besides just the houses So uh does our city define a subdivision as for townhouses But as we're talking about that drain I mean here's the plans and literally Um here slope new uh Crete towards the inlet remove the curb raise the uh inlet top to be flushed with a new paver driveway to and then replace the grape with a solid cover So there was a lot of work done To this not just um You know It's not just a you know little tie in Toy and let's uh 6 inches wide 12 inches tall This is all at the street And then we have the asphalt That'll show you how it ended up getting tied in So Definitely the plan the original plan it was look at this it was not followed Yeah and I think that that that's the the question is did we get a bond No we did not because there was no dedicated public improvement How is this not a dedicated public improvement city there's a technical question on what was constructed No doubt that there are plans with all sorts of improvements that had to be made Whether or not they are Technically public improvements that the city would take Ownership and maintenance of after the project is developed I don't know the answer to that question And and the performance bond would only be related to That aspect Of the project So the so the project as designed and engineered The drainage is in the plat the final plat it's indicated What was constructed in the as-buts which is what I think Council member Jackson and and that's accessible is that That doesn't match up They were supposed to fund and pay for that improvement Public improvement as I see it And They did not make that improvement Did they expend the funds to make that in person And so Very obvious to me that the owners especially if you've ever driven into that driveway and I think the property owners have welcomed anyone to try It's not only a drainage issue it's as the engineers we invested $7500 to have the engineers go back out They talked about raising the grade And so that is a great example and maybe the grade in the driveway that starts where you get out of the performance bond but to that inlet there We don't know I mean if if tomorrow Uh somebody goes and takes the rate the top off Vandalizes it We don't know who is responsible for fixing that right away that that box is the same old box as I understood it's always been there The city's always maintained that box from what I understand It looks like that's the case with the asphalt But it was not supposed to be built that way Um In the plans and our residents would know probably better than I would I'd have to go look at it But I mean originally it was supposed to be redesigned And they moved it You can tell they moved it OK They didn't They they changed the design in the as built to reflect what existed exactly So they changed it with in that respect But my question becomes even You know on it being public or not you've got the public sidewalk there you've got the right of way right here for the drainage you know the curb area and this is right there by it so I don't see how this could not be considered public But In the case of the bonds Don't we we own that Structure Brakes were responsible for it And OK Yeah I'm sorry Mayor Lexi did you want to add something to help I just wanted to make sure that we were super clear that they um structure was not relocated It has always been there um and just kind of as a question Is the subdivision bond code specifically and this is maybe a city attorney and Dave question specifically meant for assets that would otherwise once developed be considered private because they're located on private property So in this case it's in the right of way so it's always been city responsibility and to be clear too with the technicality tying into the structure would not necessarily be considered an improvement It is an improvement maybe to that site's drainage but it is not a public improvement to tie into that structure just to be totally clear it does not improve nor does it deter the flooding that may happen on that street during heavy rain events It does not Change any of the hydrology otherwise on that street that would that would be going into that structure Just from a technical standpoint OK so Lexi and I'm sorry to interrupt I'm sorry to interrupt Mayor So on the Asville where it shows that it's in the driveway Is it not is it at the curb that is in the right of way And as as the structure has always been in the right of way On an angle As the as bill shows To meet the existing and that as Lexi said has always been there Um opposed to capping it as our city manager said expanding it over here and keep that Capacity and and maybe nominal change but to move that over Um The engineer recommended that change for a reason It was an option one of you mean so when you say the engineer do you mean the former city engineer the current city engineer or the engineer of record The engineer of record for the design Mike Allen The original design So the original design had that on there The permitted design had it on there and during I was was discussed previously at some point it was approved to not be relocated And we have discussed that in prior meetings about this topic yeah but I think we've learned that that approval was not Done in a way that we can show any evidence So engineers have to sign and stamp and and recertify and and revise as you know as good as anyone and we never saw those revisions or changes The only revision was the original approved permitted design and then the as bill And so that was I think it was verbal approval um Well the built is also provided by the engineer of record Well the answer that the change was made was By the former public Uh Public works the services director Yeah the builder requested an alteration to the approved plans which that request was reviewed and approved by the city's previous public works services director Jim Moore Right but the bets are submitted under an engineer of record and I'm not disagreeing with you that there is not enough of a paper trail to show why that was Changed I'm just wanting to clarify that that Structure being there even if it had been moved whether it was it it always existed in the right of way right So it's not been it's not considered a pub that they tie into it is not considered a public improvement From a technical standpoint from a hydro hydrological standpoint it would not be considered that all the way through that which when you say when you say that that is not a public improvement You might we agree that it may not improve the performance of the drink That if you're using the word improvement but to think that that's publicly owned And that capping that and expanding the drain all in the right way and expanding it is not considered improving public property Then I don't know I guess my question is is that trigger the code that has to do with holding a bond Does it is it considered because you're not deeding the public what would otherwise be private infrastructure to public maintenance right So it's always been public maintenance So I'm I'm trying to kind of lend a little bit of insight as to why that may not be as applicable to that particular code as maybe other subdivisions The issue is common sense Yeah it's whether or not there's a new improvement that is going to be dedicated to the city Not an existing improvement There are always points of connection private developers tie in to existing improvements in the right of way The city would not bond in existing improvement because it already exists so if there's new improvements that are going to be again dedicated to the city that are going that are somehow going to be unfinished The city's security to make sure that they get finished is a performance bond OK but only for the public new public improvement Now say new This unfinished improvements that are dedicated to the public So not say no It dedication to the public That that that's an affirmative action of a conveyance of a new public improvement That's what dedicate unfinished improvements that are dedicated to the public So what is a public infrastructure that's not dedicated In the context of a subdivision A new subdivision I don't understand the difference between dedicated and undedicated and I don't know the intent of that language on dedicated but to me all public property is dedicated to the public It's no no in this context we're dealing with a development project Involving improvements So if those improvements are going to ultimately be the responsibility of the city Then the developer would Install those improvements And when completed Dedicate them to the city where the city then now takes on the maintenance responsibilities I think we're slicing words The engineer designs I do I thought did improve Maybe it's nominal the engineer if they are indifferent OK I can tell you that the grade at a minimum that drain was a hazard with that site plan that was approved and and where it is so raising the great cabinet and moving it to me was put that way for a reason I'm not questioning I want to make sure I'm really clear on my statement I have not questioning What was in the plans that Ms Jackson I Articulating on the record Whether or not they were supposed to be public improvements That's an engineering question But you know whatever was in the plans we all know I believe some of that was not done and changed in the field Through verbals Whether that was appropriate or not has nothing to do whether or not you know a performance bond Um was required I mean typically Plans are approved aspects of those plans if they are going to be publicly dedicated once they're completed the engineer will will certify What those improvements are and what the estimated cost is and if the bond is necessary then a bond would be provided To ensure the completion of those improvements But I'm not questioning I mean whatever's in the plan is they're in the plans Um I'm not even addressing that I thought I viewed it as this is public owned property that the developer is Putting Funds into which I believe improves For the benefit of the public and wherever you're saying but that's different because it existed And I don't think I don't read if it helps I mean if it was an existing public improvement That was going to be enhanced modified by a developer And then that enhancement was going to be Taken on by the city through dedication when it's completed then I would say that that would be an improvement Public improvement that would be bonded The enhancement not the existing Yeah it's an engineering it's an engineering question as to But The developer at Fillmore was constructing that would ultimately be Given to the city To take on maintenance responsibilities That aspect What the performance bond provisions are supposed to address OK Thank you very much um So that plotting 98 15 I believe 59 yes That um I I see that that improvement privately funded on publicly owned infrastructure was not made Today we have a problem and it would be really nice to be able to get that improvement made Dilemma while we went down and in on that which I think was a big issue The dilemma as I understand with the Fillmore task clips updates is it Before it was we're waiting on FPL Thankfully we've now uh I think no longer waiting at least on the the whole Removal was waiting on Something else Bars another one but They're no longer waiting And I think Where I go and I see followed up not getting a response Followed up Where's our leverage First thing I want to point and if we need to take a break I think maybe in a in a few minutes it would be good but one of the things I wanna to I understand is been stated this is a private civil matter At a few times and I went back and listened to the meeting and I think that's a very big point we need to And Applied on the Jackson Avenue Code enforcement side It's been stated And under certain circumstances not all and then on this side and I think that's One of the first things we as council members have to figure out very early in the process is is this right If plans were not Bill I know we can say the contractor did not build them But under these circumstances In the spirit of stating the problem if we do not think that we have Some Us that prolonged and caused this I I I I've got an issue with that So Go through these Procedures I I just want to emphasize We need to Accurately in our own we all have our own If the city would have had a bond whether it was needed or not That's an example of of something that I think we we could be able to act folks whether that's right wrong or indifferent We're here today I think trying to compel the the contractor but what if Things don't get resolved What leverage do we have We I know we've talked about this Are we But it's the plan there and that's where I'm a little confused And Mr Mayor In the Kimberley horn report from April They have their findings and a lot of it deals with the swell and the fact that they're not meeting the um The uh cities Water Discharge plan let me see what they call that um Yeah storm water Um so You know we have more than just the weather that's public that is still pending for these locations because we've got that the design design retention area does not make the city's water quantity requirements of Section 90.148 um that constructed retention area doesn't match the approved plans Um the bottom is at the wrong elevation the area width varies and doesn't appear To match the approved plans uh twelve-inch outfall structure that was installed because the instead of the 24 inch um the rim of the outfall was installed in an elevation of 9.2 instead of 9.25 The asphalt doesn't provide the size of the pipe installed but a field measurement verified it's a 22-inch bite which is consistent with the approved plans then the proposed type C structure wasn't installed instead the 12-inch pipe was Tied in So for me I'm like where do we stand with this We did this report and we haven't gotten any further on resolving film wars situation with this and I know that one of the emails that we received was that he was willing to fix these things So have we even gotten with him as a city and said we did a report and here's what we found or what are you gonna do this because you said in your email You're willing to fix these things I mean have we even made a contact with them and sometimes that might be all it takes the contacts are being made from the the update and I think that their documenting you can see clearly but as far as I think traction um that's Where or at least resolving It might be next week I don't know it's just to me it's more about well Why would they be in a hurry What is what is binding and that was the other thing I could not remember waiting on FPL and we were waiting on the engineer report And so any Dave might have something to add here Dave Yeah I was contacted by the um Project developer he has a meeting Friday uh with engineer of record to get this back on track Oh that's great And they have been provided with all the Kimberley horn report so they know exactly what needs to be done per the Kimley Horn report Sent engineering Yes you're the engineer of record so they're they're meeting with the project developer on Friday The reason I ask is in the notes Talked about On 520 back in May potentially maybe they yes Mayor They were having a very difficult time connecting I'll just put it that way And um I Uncomfortably inserted myself into that process and um hopefully get it off center Um but you're right there were a number of weekly updates or task lists excuse me that indicated they were having problems connecting but they have connected and based on everything I've heard Things should start rolling on Friday OK And that'll that'll be excuse me I'm sorry that'll be reflected in the next task update Thank you Councilor do we want to take a quick break and then come back and try to get I'd like to Expand a little bit more on what that looks like and what happens if And and what the city's position is and what action that the residents the property owners can see well if This doesn't get resolved And if it's resolved in a way that's not satisfactory what do we do And we have residents here I would like to hear from them So we want to take a 10-minute recess come back and yes if any residents want to speak obviously if you choose uh we can certainly open it back up but with that council we OK Take 10 minutes It's maybe come back 10 after Good OK We'll reconvene at 6:10 And then We don't know I could take it Thank you sir OK we'll get started here in just a minute I think we're waiting on one more and as soon as we get going if you do intend to speak um We have a couple of comment cards We can go ahead and open that up since I think we went through some things and as Mayor Pro Tem suggested would be good And Same for those at home if we open it up here we'll give those folks an opportunity to speak City manager are we ready we wait on the city attorney Um yeah a couple more maybe give another minute perhaps That sounds good He had a Sure thing OK well we can have a slow start here be mindful that the city attorney's not with us and with that We're ready city clerk I'll go ahead and call the meeting back to order It is 6:13 p.m. We're reconvening uh for our Special city council meeting We were working through uh some discussion a motion has been on the floor to Uh Except and uh the Report provided and also the org chart proposed changes in the budget We just left off um talking about A few items one of the last ones that was really The city's role in this and you know certainly there are civil matter aspects Uh but We are reaching out according to the film our task list to the uh to the property owners Or to the contractors excuse me to get them to do the work as our uh Development director David Dickey had stated um I think this Friday they're gonna meet And I do want to talk a little bit more about what happens if we On the way this could go and and what leverage the city has But as Mayor Pro Tem suggested hearing from the public I think it would be first priority if the council is willing we can go ahead if they choose and want to speak you can open that up now and um Then bring it back Does that sound good OK Uh First card I have here Ms Joyce Downing The Joyce come on forward If that was your intention to speak now OK thank you So uh Joyce Downing from Fillmore Avenue I have watched this whole building go up and watched all the nonsense that's going on with it Um and being in city council meetings before that to make sure that these things didn't happen and the things that we really fought for did happen you know the the the drainage didn't happen like it was supposed to and although that drain we're talking about is something that um does not improve the the city Um it was designed to deal with the extra water that was coming from that property and that was not done so the city is not benefiting what happened is detrimental to everybody there So I don't understand why the city can't say well hey you guys needed to have done this correctly so that we don't have increased flooding and you know we have increased flooding because of it So I don't know about the bond situation but you know the fact is we're worse off than we were before And I'm tired of fighting for this Um I I hear that it's not just the builders that were at error It was city employees So I mean the city has to take some culpability here It's you know it wasn't all done Without the city knowing about it and I think if you've got employees that have done the wrong thing then you have to own up to that and you have to to deal with it So my question is why can't you just a city fix the problems and then sue the people that caused it to happen in the first place So that's my question Thank you Thank you and I will make sure that question is asked I think that ties into exactly one of the the options we can discuss Thank you Ms Downing Uh the next card is Miss Sherry Berkeley Hi I'm Sherry Berkeley I live at 314 Fillmore so I live in one of the town homes that we've been discussing and I don't have a lot more to add than what Joyce added except We've been there since August of 2022 I know the hearse moved in after us but the CEO was issued um and so it's a little frustrating you know the city is responsible as much as the builder and um Kind of hear a lot of Oh we missed it or we're gonna make the builder do it but the city at some point needs to own up to some of that and if the builder isn't going to do it then the city needs to figure out a way to fix things Um it's a problem I mean that's my yard Um sorry I'm a little nervous but we can't do anything in our yard because we don't know what's going to be um fixed when it's going to be fixed We'd like to put up a fence where we do like to do some landscaping but you know it's always on hold it's on hold it's on hold and um as far as the drainage Um my understanding is it was supposed to be where the mailboxes are on the grassy area not in the Hearst driveway So It's a lot that needs to be fixed and going back just to the swell and the drainage You guys issue a CEO but it kind of makes us nervous too what other things were um approved in the home that really wasn't up to code That's kind of too late to go back and see with the electrical done right with plumbing done right because Nobody's really responsible and the people that are responsible are not no longer here but um I just wanted to let you know that you know we are homeowners here and you know we're paying attention and if even if we're not at all the meetings we're we're still aware of what's going on So I do appreciate your time Thank you Thank you If there were any other cards I did I do not have them other than I still think I miss Shallard's card if you want to speak now or hold And then we have uh obviously those folks listening online if anyone would like to speak and uh We ask you please raise your hand and we'll unmute you I'll give it Little bit of time there OK seeing no hands raised We'll go ahead and close public participation bring it back here to the council Um So the first question uh Around the options of This matter what What we're doing now That FPL has done the engineer reports on the there has been changes in in in the personnel But The contractor is going to have to go make Improvements that I don't think we we know yet And Why is that contractor Compelled to do that Um I leverage What do we what is the city Or because the sort of I viewed it as at times it seems like we the city were reaching out Sort of as a To help these two private parties out And we were providing a service that you know will compel FPL but when I go back to the what was written what was stated it's you need to contact FPL You need to contact your contractor And Today I'm not sure that that that's different that if the contractor throws their hands out and doesn't do anything are we saying We we don't have a role to play at that point Whether or not the city has a role it's it's not a legal issue Does the city have the ability to deal with the issue Um probably yes as I said in a prior meeting I believe Um there is an easement an emergency easement in the plaque that gives the city the ability to go in and make repairs to that drainage system I think the city can lean on that To fix the drainage system if necessary In addition to the extent there's any improvements in the right way that are Maintained by the city of course the city always has the ability to address that Now whether or not the city has a role I mean that's policy decision that you all have to make So well I I think that CEOs were issued the engineered plans showed that the section that they focused on as Ms Berkeley said we didn't look at interior and all those uh inspections we just looked at the drainage and the specific things that were outlined There were deficiencies not just on public property but on private property So the building officials in a position of uh Permits out or uh CO has been issued We've talked about revoking um and that's really the the path I'm going down because what I think you're suggesting city attorney is that We can go within our easements and improve on our dollar but what are we improving Mistakes that a contractor made That we That's the role I think we played that we should be approving and or correcting As the governing body and so to go in and fix areas that we already own and have access rights to I understand that and I know we can do that but I don't know if this council thinks that that's our financial responsibility And My questions about the the contractor Do we not Have any leverage over The contractor who did not build to the plans Property was COed And It was CO So whether or not they built to the plans I think You've determined that It wasn't built according to the plans The property was CO'd and I don't know what to tell you after that um whether or not the city has a cause of action at this stage under these circumstances against the contractor I think that's somewhat tenuous claim to be to be brought But Why are we contacting the contractor today to come and fix this Why are we Because they've stated a willingness to correct it Trying to compel that to be done as soon as possible I'm the contractor and I think they've said this is what are we correcting We've been given our COs sort of like our what our city attorney I They're aware that the system is not constructed according to the plan And the engineers the third part the Kimberley Horn came back in revised everything and said I think our community development director said very early it's not and to me When this all started it it's As Ms Berkeley said as Ms Downing said just fix it one option city could go in and and make the improvements And I guess lean But Oz To me We're not in a in a position of Uh Influence If there's No Desire and I think desire will be largely based on cost and so if those improvements that the engineer said which was to raise the grade to fix the swell in the back and any other things deficiencies is $50,000 I don't know $100,000 I mean I'm looking for some direction here from our city manager and city attorney on recommended steps on resolving the physical issues at this property as it relates to filmmore and flooding That I think Within the walls of that permit at least in the criteria we've done everything we've can can To show these issues Why are we not Leveraging that Revoking capabilities or some other capabilities or there's not Options I mean if the CEOs were issued I I think we all know it It talks about revoking in this at any point That a CEO is issued it does not mean that you know it We you can go back and revoke and I don't know if we met the criteria but I'm sort of living in my frustration just now just trying to I I'm I'm a little astonished that I can't Get a clear answers other than we issued the CEO So we Mr Mayor so we basically have no legal recourse By revoking the CEO because they're in the house What are we gonna do to the residents But is there any legal recourse anything that we can pressure The uh contractor can we limit any access to the city Or any other Projects that they might be doing You know is there some recourse that we can go back and exert a little more a lot more pressure on the contractor Well there was revoke with conditions I think is what the building official talked about to overcome the the the property the residence what does how does that pressure that the developer I'm just asking how how would that pressure the developer Have an open permit at that point right Yeah I mean just kind of spitballing the idea with you here um having been a former building official That I've never done this and I I think we would be wise to research case law to see if anything like this had been done But you revoke the permanent CO and replace it with a temporary CO With a time frame on it And With for reasons stipulated because the contractor didn't finish Um properly notice the contractor that that wasn't done that this is um revoked and now is um Work without a permit It's basically an expired permit You have 10 number of days to Get the permit to complete the an incomplete work And then once you have the permit you have the time that the permit allows you to finish the work Theoretically the work gets done during that period of time gets approved and then the final CEO gets a redone But still it comes down to what what leverage do we have Should that fail And the only thing I can think of and this is my old building official hat is you can um make a complaint against the license the state license for having um incomplete work or work without a permit um creating a hardship um for whatever reasons and then the state would decide whether or not that was a case that they want to take up and charge the contractor um and they've got their own penalties they can do with the licensing at that point It's it's a long circuitous route to get there and certainly more time um and I think we're all kind of feeling like the common sense thing was would be to work with the contractor because he says he wants to get this done He's willing to get this done He's meeting with him Friday to start working on this um but what do we do if if that doesn't happen and we all would love that common sense thing to happen and just be done We'd like it to be done by now So um that's one idea that I have perhaps um but it's it's I could see it being a long road As the contractor have any more projects besides the one on Jefferson Um I don't know Dave do you know To the best of my knowledge he has a um A project on Jefferson that that that is under construction And he's also purchased a piece of property on I want to say Washington that he's gonna be moving a plat through the process There's no applications yet um but he has a piece on Washington and he wants to do something with For uh thinking through ideas uh as far as to me just take those other properties away and and how it works is Sounds like that they open permit Would would Escalate into all the things you described about um But without the other properties and the risks of that Yeah I think it stands on its own though I mean to to me that The property owners saw this happening They were concerned it was built It did not happen We got to to make that happen Unless I'm just dead wrong like that that's our job is Got to figure out And As I would call that lucky But I just can't accept that we don't have we we we need we under these circumstances Well and one thing I'm curious about I don't mean to interrupt you Mr Mayor Um as we listen to public comment the drain not being correct at the at the street is causing an issue with flooding is causing more water and we're trying to take care of those as people that know me know I'm a little passionate about let's get the water off the in the areas that were flooding And this is Really truly a question because I have no idea if it's possible But is there any way we could just go ahead and get our public works guys to fix that drain and put it in the right spot so we can alleviate at at least that As an issue with you know adding more water onto the streets Uh we're I'm sorry Mayor are we talking about the drain at the front putting it to the plan original plan but not the swale on the back but not the swell in the back because that's private property But since that's tied into our public property and we just had someone state that that's causing more water on the streets It looks to me like we could go ahead and just get our folks to go ahead and I I I actually it doesn't look like it to me I'm asking And we legally do that part of it and tell the developer get on the swell you know we're going to take care of this part you take care of that part Anthony's already weighed in on the the the system itself the city has emergency rights to to work on And that's even on the private property where the easement area exists So we have the right to do that work and as Anthony said it's a policy question if counsel wants to expend the funds to do that Um well I think if it's making water worse on our streets That And correct me if I'm wrong but there's no reason we couldn't I mean is there a reason let me ask it that way where we couldn't go ahead and fix this issue and build that builder It was Ms Downing's question is could we Bill meaning I think lean Well I defer to the city attorney on that but the the real property that's being impacted is not the builder's property So the the lean I'm assuming would go to the real property that's being impacted I don't think any of us has the appetite to lien the current homeowners there No we wouldn't want to but could we lean I mean can we bill him Can we bill him for the work that he did not complete If the city did it I'll let the city attorney weigh in but I I would think that if the council's policy direction was to to do that set a course of action to do that that You could uh direct the staff and the city attorney to um Write a letter um to the contractor and let him know the city's intentions that within uh this much time if the improvements are not completed uh the city intends to do this and we'll um Invoice the contractor For that Thank you Subject to the city attorney's thoughts on that of course The attorney Certainly can do that you know whether or not the builder pays and we have the ability We'll get bulldog collection services on it your company Wouldn't that allow us to place a lien if he didn't pay that on any property that that Builder had OK And it would become a civil issue Collection would be an issue for yeah Then where would it come out Um arguably could come out of the stormwater Enterprise Fund with that is whatever that amount of money is I love the fact that it would get fixed and we control our own destiny and we can get it done I don't like without the ability because if it's 5 $50,000 That was the responsibility of that I can't I don't feel that that's Responsible right Have other means and authority to compel to do it That's what I'm really hoping for but I do agree Be able to fix it uh in in reverse whether it be in the Private or public and on the private side you know with that pipe runs across on the yard that was a change too Yes the angle So we would have to go all the way up to that point Yeah um OK Yes Councilor agree that it would be nice to get done if the city could do that and but again the collection and say it costs us 15 to 20,000 like you said whatever to fix drainage then we have to see think of civil litigation How much is that going to cost the city If they don't pay so that's not I'm I'm for getting it fixed but I'm just opening you know thinking of options Because that could be that litigation could be a lot of money too So we can't revoke the CEO I just wanna council member Willis said it sounds like we can't but I still think that's an option And Temporary certificate OK for the safe to protect the safety of the occupants and the public booking a CO an option So the building official has the Building of the building official has the ability to Revoke certificates of occupancy when necessary because the occupancy of a building is not Habitable generally so the building official would Technically have to make that call and as you know the building officials the one that Building code right so You know that decision would have to be made and then you have the issue of what to do with the residents the managers put out there is that if they revoke the CEO you give them a temporary certificate of occupancy hoping that that leverages Somehow the the the contractor that built this project to come in and fix The uh Well and drainage issues Oil and drainage issue doesn't go to the occupancy of the building So I mean the buildings Buildings Appropriate when the Drainage swale And I did The way they should have been constructed Putting aside the verbals that apparently occurred That change on the verbal With the contractor received verbal from our city staff we are saying That's not a procedure that That responsibility was on the contractor to get those changes approved through a Process we do approve the contractor did not follow The process Right You're referring to the public works director verbally accepting the modification Yes the fact that if the contractor says we received a verbal approval from the public works director to make this to leave the drain where it is and to cut a pipe across and just What That's not the appropriate change That's a change That's a lesson learned in this case and naturally we talked about that being in the SOPs There's no more of that So what should the contractor have done he should have went to his engineer batter revision made submitted that revision to city It goes through the review team for comments And then um if approved um then it would be documented as an approval but it never was Right into that contractor did not follow through those steps That drain stayed there unfortunately it was not moved and we have all the issues today Why isn't that enough right there just on its own to go did something that was not approved in the engineered standard We However now that this has brought to our attention that it doesn't match up That we have there's some immunity there where they can say we revoke now based on you've just you've constructed something that was not approved in the design So if um Technical question whether or not that verbal was ever memorialized in a revised set of plans David now So I mean the bottom line the bottom line the way that should have worked is that at the end of the day When everything was done not only would have a certificate of occupancy being granted But The engineer of record would have certified to the city and the city engineer would have confirmed whether or not The project was built according to the plans And that don't believe that happened Add it have I mean that that's the way and you know on amending construction plans You're right Re would modify the plans and submit them for Yeah that was a complete complete breakdown in our process and how it should have been handled We we totally Didn't handle that properly Um but no it's to the to my knowledge there was never any plans Prepared and submitted by the EOR To reflect the um the the changes to the drainage system There is an as built that we looked at um that I think pardon a partial as built basically from the 12 by 12 box between the two units There's a little there's a little inlet right there It's a great inland storm storm great From that point south to the street there was a um um an as built that was prepared But and it shows the angled connection It shows the angled connection to the Location Currently today so we got a partial as built but our process was Just an as is not a certification of compliance with the plans Correct So Yeah I know you I know the city is trying desperately to try to get the contractor and you know to work with their engineer and make this right Uh The day this thing is full of warts Mm We all know that we sat through several hearings Things were not done according to the code Maybe we just send a demand letter Send the demand letter to the contractor and the engineer of records saying that the project wasn't built according to the plans weren't certified Of the city as required by the code That'll get them off the dime Other than that Mayor I mean I mean know the city staff has tried to get the contractor I can't remember the name of the contractor the step forward the meeting on Friday um hopefully they do the right thing And them a demand letter And can I ask a question Does the contractor have anything that he can come back on The city on like following a lawsuit against the city or you know whatever type of suit against the city I don't know We're talking about just one specific Property the Fillmore property and whether or not it was constructed in accordance with approved plan Well we send it that's that's that's the issue and Have an explanation why certain verbals were done why the city never got a certification of compliance with the construction plans I have no idea why but That's that's addressed in my root causes here The building official had a different opinion of the code section say that again I didn't hear you The building official held a different interpretation of that code section And he didn't Or the code rules In this case that's um It's the building official's responsibility to issue permits and and COs and uphold all city codes It's the building official's responsibility A demand letter I think was sent though And are you saying from our uh it was sent from I believe David From the department I think Anthony's referring you're talking about a legal demand letter What would I'm I'm more interested in and I think it would answer council member Davis's question which is a very good one on what is what would And I agree on the demand letter But what would we say in it This is this is the route This is where I'm I'm I I'm having a really hard time To say Our procedure requires getting it designed Proved by your the engineer record bringing it back resubmitting it and then you construct Not do that No matter if they say well it was verbal there's nowhere that that's the path It's clearly why are we not able to simply say you did not follow this process Which now we know we are revoking The building official revoked the COO I think the answer is that's a question for the building official Today weren't councils in a tough spot because I don't think we have a building official We also have maybe another complication as we've got Kimley Horn has done their evaluation and they've given two options to resolve that One is to um build it to the approved plan or 2 is correct me if I'm wrong leave it with the angle but raise the box I'm not sure that Kimley Horn's Lexi still here I'm not sure Kimley's horns that option too I don't know if they identified any code compliance issues with the with the current How it sits today I don't think there was any identified code violations In Kimberley Horn's report I'm going to verify that but But my my point is there's there's two options There are 2 options yeah right and from a from a You know as as the mayor's talking about the leverage I'm not sure we have a great deal of leverage to force the developer to move the box because there's no And again I'm I'm I will verify this but I don't think that there's any code compliance issues with the with the storm inlet today Uh storm in as bill is in as built I think the engineer report was based off the as bill at least part of it And and so they did talk about even with that I I just can't get past They submitted to design that was permitted and improved approved They started to build inspections happen and an inspection was missed Sounds like because There's no matching up Yes this as belt came and went but that was it stamped and And why we can't just stop right there I think for what Mayor Pro Tem section of the coast he was talking about we and and We we can't revoke the CEO on that alone I'm I'm suggesting that we can Go explore the path of revoking the COs yes OK we can That's what I'm saying And so the demand the letter would would state that Because to me a demand what do you demanding And and what we shouldn't be sending demand letters if we don't have leverage That's not a city I want to be Either there's an issue that we can leverage and the issue is is Built not to the approved plans CEO needs to be revoked The way I mean this contractor has other projects in the city Up his other projects Well I don't wanna say I I I I'm I would be very surprised if the developer is not listening To this conversation right now Um so I just don't wanna Play all our cards so to speak OK Um but I mean that could be part of the demand letter To my knowledge and this would defer to Anthony to my knowledge I don't know if we're in a position to hold up permits on a separate project Um based on this Uh there are time frames on the floor Contractor rights I mentioned the demand letter I didn't say demand letter Certified and built according to the plan Site related Yeah But what does that mean if it's not certified How are they penalized Is the code required it Permit isn't final isn't like $100 This may be I it's asked about potential leverage Issue That is required by the code Where the Records certifies that all the improvements in a subdivision which this is it's in accordance with the plans No But he even asked them for it But Code requirement Tony is there any specific time frame on it In The construction of the improvements Or so it's subdivision so it's past due right now As do I would say because the certificate But revoking the CO is again I think that's a building official call regarding the the occupancy of the building I don't know what the if you down that route I said I think I said it before But impact that may have I you know Them I don't Unsettling position I Occupancy to awfully occupy a building I thought was an option I understand that I mean we could are based on third-party actions and those third parties don't act Then what And what kind of impact is there If during hurricane season they had damage And that was in place Act if any does it have on their insurance That this is not one of those situations where a building is not Habitable Building is dangerous where the city's exercising its police powers To revoke certificate of occupancy to get people out of That would ultimately lead to you know the expiration of the temporary certificate of occupancy and then we're at a well what do we do now Um and I think that would mean the city would have to cause the improvements to be made Then we're back to how do we get Compensated for that Oh This was Back back to January when they started we're not Option the recommended step the motion on the floor is to continue to follow up and I don't See how We are in the best position To ensure that Those issues are resolved for those residents and those property owners and holding Proper Parties accountable it's really Have to get that right And that's all of us we go to bed with our neighbors and wake up and be on council for a little bit and we'll all get off and we all get to live together and so uh I want to make sure When you when our city attorney said You need to think about that I hope we have thought about this Talk about the pros and the cons and it sounds like Of course there's been thought about it but that in-depth level that we need Never thought it was worthy enough to at least go down it and so I respect that that we go back to today which is Persuades persuasion diplomacy that those are ideal first steps to get things done But at some point under these circumstances I do think there's some serious safety issues not on the occ occupancy side but that science thing of rebar just one off sticking out in the back there's serious grade and slope issues There's photographs of flooding that's already happening around it and and because of it if you pull in the car or in the Driveway I've been to the site in rain and it's Literally was deep if you stand right under that storm that we just documented and saw It was so deep And all the all of the in To me yes maybe not an issue on the occupancy but I don't sense we have a clear path forward on how to resolve this today So when I accept this this is where I'm blurry and I need to hear we are gonna do this We're gonna go and if that fails we are going to leverage this and if that can't happen I accept that We're not magicians but we have the law And and I'm just trying to use the law And if we need a building official to interpret we're very lucky to have Todd as a former certainly that's not today to to weigh in and to think that that's a potential path I think knowing the options I'm just I think we're all brainstorming different ideas about leveraging the other property but Are there any other ones we're not talking about and What can we do to see a path where You can put it the time question that was asked can happen once we understand the leverage because the original letter that was sent I believe by David Dickey and I think the whole council was shortly after December it was early 2023 The letter went out to the contractors and it said within 10 days That was back I think in March 10 days and we saw Those 10 days clearly that was 2023 I I mean so While that may have not have been a demand letter that I think give us a Indication Um Yes Mayor Pro Tem I think too that maybe we could um Get an estimate on what it would cost to fix The drainage How much will it cost and you know we have stormwater enterprise funds I don't know if we have any ARPA funds left but I mean we talk about flooding all the time And here the way it was constructed made it worse for the people there And we issued the CO with that without you know looking at the um Letter from John Picard about the drainage system being wrong We issued the COs anyway so the city is at fault to a certain extent Um What would be the cost of fixing it Um and then we would have a number to in a demand letter to the contractor as well Um What it's gonna cost for us to make it right I mean I don't know Mayor If may I speak Mr Picar has made some recommendations I don't recall exactly in which memo um but he he indicated there is a uh a code compliant technique Of um I'll say basically burying some some pipe in the backyard And there would be several advantages to that One would be it would be relatively inexpensive And the second option or the second advantage would be that They would have the owners There wouldn't be any swale It would just be covered over and it would be a flat yard So they would have a full advantage of everything behind the home vaults right Yeah it's it's it's a type of vault Um so there are options for the council to consider um um relatively inexpensive ones I don't have all the details sitting here this evening But we could certainly pursue that and and maybe provide some additional information to the council I think the goal here is to fix the problem Yes quickly and quickly I mean we've waited for the contractor waited for the Now he's going to meet with you Friday again wait I I would like to get the numbers on what it would cost and We're in the budget season now so I just want to fix it for these people Agreed says no No John um let me just quickly I understand exactly where Mayor Morrison's coming from You know like you know who's responsible or contract or whatever you know it's hard to let people off the hook When you've done something wrong and you know they need to get it right so Mayor I agree completely with you on that fact Councilmember Davis and no Mayor Pro Tem Callum I'm thinking the same way as I was sitting back there How long is this process gonna be pursued and back and forth and hoping it gets resolved or whatever if Dave and his staff or whoever could put A dollar amount potential estimate on how long does this takes and what it needs to be fixed and paying the lawyer fees you know Anthony's in here all the time what have you and being called on the phone whatever Let's look at that What's that cost Because in answer to your question I don't know what it takes to do What we need to fix I don't know if you said moving the thing I think the mayor mentioned maybe he was just estimating 15,000 to 20 dollars,000 dollars whatever it is We have that money in the stormwater fund and unrestricted I have that money right now now I don't know it's not gonna run up to $100,000 I'm I'm listening talking to you It's only like 1520 $25,000 we have the money right now and unrestricted and there are some ARPA funds could be made available so the The only reason I'm stating this is If we're gonna go this long road and spend thousands of dollars of the city's money and we could resolve this with 20 $25,000 Which We have Then that might be the option That's I'm just Letting you know that the money is there but I also understand the principle of You know just saying oh yeah Name and stuff And uh uh now we got you know we're gonna just let them off the hook But in the bigger sense if we spend $40,000 To go through this whole process and whatever and it'll only cost us $20,000 to fix it That's the city's money and as the finance director I would say that that's the way to go because we have this money and we do have ARPA money We have to do have our money to cover this free money So so I just wanted to emphasize that I'm I'm tracking with you John on that and maybe what we could consider is the demand letter is you have until this time to complete this improvement if not the city will cause it to be done and we'll um use every remedy available by law to be compensated by you the contractor Leave it at that Is there any way I was the one that brought up the us repairing it because They're sitting there having storm damage Is there any way that we can talk to them when they meet on Friday And let them know We've waited this long we're gonna fix it And We're gonna recover If if we have direction from council on that to do that we can do that Or just at least meet with them because they're already getting together If they're getting together on Friday they probably have Some intention of discussing it at the least And that way we can find out what their intentions are as far as when they They are saying they're gonna fix it But it's not fixed by that date we get the the estimates and we get it done because we we need to get water off those streets We need to get their properties resolved We're coming into a very active storm season Y'all know how I am I will harp on this because we need to make sure we get that water off that street and there are things that were not correct We do need to take our part in it and get it done And that's like a one-time thing If we ended up spending it our city spinning it It's a one-time thing that we're spending when it wasn't exactly Everything didn't go exactly the way that it should Mayor if I could get clarification from Dave who's meeting with who and where on Friday Project developer Gary Wittenkind is meeting with the engineer of record Mike Allen at Allen Engineering 5 o'clock on Friday So I'm sorry Mary go ahead and finish then I'll go when you're done Mayor if it's if it's the direction of the council to Um We could go straight to the demand letter or I think as Councilman Jackson is saying meet with them subsequent to this Friday meeting and say look council has already authorized us to pursue a demand letter and see where that influence gets us Or we could just go straight to the demand letter My question is I understand we need to fix it I understand all that but Yeah are we opening the city up to every time a contractor doesn't finish something oh the city's going to fix it and what you fix theirs why are you going to fix ours So that's another option to consider is are we opening up a can of worms for the city That's the risk That's this is a problem that's not going to happen again on my watch My staff is aware of the problems that were made on this and we're going to be hyper villigent vigilant on this to make sure it doesn't happen We as Dave said we know we've missed some things and this is a key one that we've missed issuing the CEO before all the check boxes were done Not following the the CEO application properly like it's meant to be done not getting the building official to review the site plan That's all documented as where we missed it That's not gonna happen again on my watch Mr Mayor yes Uh subsequent to this Friday meeting we certainly in a negotiation you don't want to be the first one to make an offer So let's hear from them What they are going to do and if it's unsatisfactory We throw the demand letter down on them And We proceed and we can report back to the council at the next council meeting on that um how that went and you can let us know if you want to go ahead and authorize the demand letter That time you're talking about the council meeting next week Yeah we can get an answer by then right Because we need to we need to make a decision on a direction with this We're talking about water estimate on how much it would cost and can we go ahead and move forward to that We're going to do everything we can to get the council an estimate by your count by the meeting next week Yeah I think the the cost that the developer would have incurred to make the improvements of the approved design plan is really that The issue So that Work should have been done no matter what the cost was And then to go above and beyond what the design plan says and to do underground excavation or tanks or chambers or anything like that I think We looked at like Fillmore Avenue those projects even the CRA matching grants to go above and beyond to fix it Heck yeah but I don't want to lose sight of Yes we can quickly fund it and and and and and pay for it but that's sort of a uh just a best case scenario I don't think The The would have to do that I if we did not Have leverage right And so I think that demand letter is really important and What goes in there and I hope that we don't have to pay for it but as far as you know matching or going above and beyond to help double down for that area and do some stormwater low impact development stuff Yeah uh or as John Picar recommended um that that's great but Yeah want to fix it And I'm not sure we've approached them With Anything since that last letter And if they are willing to help it or to to improve it and they're they're meeting with the engineers I think in their head there's a too much money They're not saying it all costs right Money doesn't grow on trees there's a limit But can't in the demand letter say What they're actually building The property owners I think would be happy with at least that stormwater inlet for the 306 owners they can speak for themselves but the the sweil and the stuff on the back We don't know Which design if there are options in the cost And so if we're going to get the cost We need to get Mayor I can help with that on all of it right I want to remind the council on the option on that front one the two options The council already made it clear and they've made it clear to the contractor That the preference is for the original design unless it cannot be accommodated and we want to know why if it cannot be accommodated Only then would we look at that option B So if we're going to fix it we're gonna have the same burden on us We want the approved design Unless we cannot I don't want to run forward with the the the money in the hand trying to fix it and especially without talking to the property owners it's I think we can get involved but I'm not sure we've put the Options that we have and exhausted them and and Went to the contractor I think that's what we're heading towards is I Something will come from Friday We have time before the next meeting have Find everything that we can to do One more handout you know reach our Other chance but we're not waiting forever you know So if I I kind of want to shape this into consensus so that we can all make sure we're agreed and that Anthony is comfortable with it too As I understand it the consensus is shaping up to After Friday so that means Monday Contact the contractor and the developer ask for a status update and tell them that the council had this meeting and directed staff to proceed with the demand letter where you will have a certain amount of time to be to be determined by this council And the city if that time passes after that Time passes the city will cause all the improvements to be made and we'll look to the contractor for for remuneration to the full extent of the law um and Gary and Andre were putting you on notice This is the direction the council has given us and we're prepared to proceed with that And then we just our next step is to follow through on that I mean I think the only thing that would stop us from following through on that is if they've actually pulled a permit to do the work OK That sounds like a a consensus item I think we've all wanted it to be fixed as fast as possible and it's I believe that the contractor has said they want to fix it has enough leverage to know that they should fix it It's done not $1 to the taxpayer As fast as possible And Yes I think that's all good and if not um I don't disagree that these things should not wait but How we how we got here and how long this has been in front of us is is the bigger issue and so I believe we're in a position where the demand letter Can result in in seeing these changes Done in a quick manner and that's I'm not 100% confident on that because I don't think we are in within ourselves And and we have to to get there and We go through it I know we want to move on and fix it in that Look at all these these issues right So the recommendation getting back to the motion on the table is I think Goes back to some some major issues around Um These properties specifically the I don't think it's wise that we vote tonight on the org chart I I I don't feel that responsible voting on the org chart I know that was added in so um If we want to talk about the org chart if the city manager needs our feedback on the org chart and that's what we're giving tonight Fine but I don't understand what a vote would do unless And if if you do want our feedback on the org chart Mr City manager is that what you're seeking Um it was an emotion made by a council member I didn't ask for that That aside do you want But I would not be offended if you don't I don't think it's my sphere role but it it if that's what your intent was it sounds like it was not I I'm the one that submitted the organ or the change to the reorganization to that in the budget and I did that John what was it a couple of months ago when we first talked about that Um since then came up with the recommendations we talked about well we should have a possibly consider um a consultant to do that council clearly doesn't want to do that so we're left with this on the table as as the proposed organizational structure And what when you say this or structure in the agenda item tonight No it's in the budget I think Councilmember Willis referred to as in the budget That's why I'm uncomfortable Another reason is it's not within the scope of the special meeting nor I mean I'm fine with Pushing stuff through but maybe Is there is that OK if we omit that so that we can Well the one of the concerns I have is that we're down a number of people The inspections aren't we don't have a building official Inspections aren't happening Or not To the degree We would desire them Dave could speak to this I'm I'm sure but that You know the longer we're delayed we're going to have customer service issues The things not happening The way I look at this is for for 20 years we've had some problems around this entire department And that projects were getting approved that looked like this project And so yes 6 months has been painful but this is not the only one They've happened I'm sorry but it's the reality and these seem to check all the boxes for me flooding uh resident business and said instead of jumping to the next one and the next one let's just try to fix these and so yes we don't have uh two building officials code enforcement but why Why do we not have them That that's a serious if we really unpack that which I'm not suggesting is that org chart And and that whole thing In regards to the vacancies Uh standard um The majority of the personnel being on Is Not necessarily just because they're gone doesn't mean we need to replace them I think we have to stop and go why are they gone And from my understanding there's multiple reasons we're not all on the same page We all haven't all discussed the reasons why I think we're sort of taking from our one on ones in this report and coming to our own conclusions But from what I'm seeing is and I said in the last meeting when I go through and I read this report And I look at the recommendations or the root problems I I have serious issues with our values And I have serious issues with the root causes um in regards to What was lacking Right So I'm getting the opinion that because these individuals who I'm not saying are no longer here that The now we can fix the problem that would assume that they were the problem and I've never said that Those people I have tremendous amount of respect for each and every one of them and the same here today However I bear and we all as council members bear a higher calling when we come in for these meetings to take the whole public interview and to make the best decisions for the citizens of Cape Canaveral and when I look at the values when I look at the job descriptions when I look at this department and when I see how long this has happened and what we've asked for I I do not like the the the org chart that I'm seeing Not because Well well first there's a director Moving to a director That's a decision that our city manager can make but I Do have direct access to our city manager and we do have authority to say that I don't understand that I do not believe that those folks who resigned and or separated and or No longer with us Maybe that was supposed to happen maybe that was for the best But that department Did not have the leadership in need are addressing it by Creating an opening there no one's disagreeing with that it sounds like But what was missing I do not see how that Transfers over and and doesn't create Same issues And so to to Cut to my concerns openly and transparency those are those are my my issues and I know that the org chart is a big part of this because strategically that's a big decision how we're going to navigate forward But these This is not Fillmore and Jackson This is not 2024 meeting This is 214 1516 this goes back and it was and it just kept happening over and over again and when I sum it all up and we go let's just fix the drain In which this decision tonight is so much Bigger because we are trying to decide Whether or not in my opinion we all understand this report and my message is is high level as I can state it is we have values And those values are Our responsibility To uphold And the values Commitment to excellence Dedication accountability innovation proactivity Fiscal responsibility integrity teamwork civility communication diversity and inclusity Exclusivity fund on our city website it says join a winning team successful members of the city of Cape Canaveral team Um it talks about uh honesty and integrity I like that And the information that I've seen And one on one meetings In public meetings In the community Has been exhausting to finally get to And it's It falls short for reasons That that I do not think is right And so Either we're gonna look at this and address the issues and I do think it's on this council and the question of what we what we do about it is Yes some people are gone But that That department wasn't functioning All the thing lacking policies gray area um lacking direction that's all within the leadership of that department and We need to figure out Whether or not this will continue And I'm not sure I can see moving forward how Moving people around council member Jackson said is going to to to fix this And I'm not sure that people who's left should should have been should have left And and I know that they did not leave All for the same reasons I think we all know that So this problem's big it's much bigger than a drain It's been going on for a long time And I don't think moving the org chart around is a solution But I do think that we have to focus On identifying Whether or not Serious values are at play If we have a commitment to excellence If we go back through emails and see I I did not see that happening Um that's what our our code says a commitments We added the word commitment in there because it was important Dedication dedicated to performing our duties to the best of our abilities and going above and beyond to achieve high quality results In this circumstance on Fillmore and on Jackson I did not see that and I like to give extra credit and points to to to me Or wherever you can and to to assume the best I've been so patient and in so long on this one and assumed wait till you get all the info in Accountability We have a responsibility to one another and the public to perform our jobs This is important effectively and efficiency efficiently not even looking at at character or anything like that just either I've been very inefficient and very ineffective as mayor at several things that I want to improve it I'm not saying that because you're inefficient or ineffective But it's a problem and the voters would have to decide For me what I'm saying is there's some serious inefficient and ineffective things This is a value under accountability These aren't words that I think we just put up to make us you know aspire to We talked about the difference in aspirational core values or permission to play values I think we ought to say that these are all important We're going to treat them all equally but the last thing I'll say is when I went down every value And applied it to Fillmore and I applied it to Jackson and I looked back and I listened to what was stated What was provided what I knew the credibility of the evidence from this side the credibility from this side We have a problem in the city of Cape Canaveral Around values and Midomy I think was here And she said That if those things are happening Don't quote me that those things should not Be a part of our city happening And they've happened They've continued to happen and even coming out of this They're continuing to happen and some of this is just white knuckle To where It was issued I don't know what else to tell you We've done all we can do I don't accept that And I think that this is a delay That has went too long That's how I feel about it The values are at stake I I don't want to go in and talk through all the details of why my hope is that in in your one on ones in our but I'm happy to That when I hear the public comments and the statements when I read some of the emails I don't agree with all of it There's many accomplishments our city has done and the individuals here everybody's got a home run at some point in our city Every individual I could tell you how they will Where they shine and I've got positive things to say about all of us But this one just got too big too fast and to me the level and the steps that need to be taken needs to be far greater than what I'm seeing today so that's it Thank you I just want to add that um Mistakes were made You admitted you make mistakes I make mistakes Everybody here makes mistakes but I don't think it was the intention of this staff to not show value integrity or this staff works very hard and there have been issues in in code enforcement or whatever but they did not go out and intentionally do something that lacked value lacked integrity They were doing a misunderstanding of the of the code or whatever They I I disagree with you The staff and has always shown value Maybe some of the stuff that integrity was wrong certain things but I don't think there was any intention on the staff's part So I disagree with you on that I don't think I mean nobody's perfect and we council has not done everything perfect Staff hasn't done any everything perfect The public's not perfect but I do not think it was their intention to go out there with no value and all the other uh values or items that you listed So I disagree and I think that we owe it to Todd to try the organization that he is he's done I don't know what else you would want I don't know what else you you're obviously asking for something else and maybe you have something in mind I don't this is what he's telling you he thinks can solve the problem He's dealt with this He's he's talked to the people and this is his We've asked for his opinion and this is it This is what he thinks will solve the problem So I think we have to give him that chance And I don't know what you're looking for I don't know whatever else you want but if you're looking for something different from the you say it right now so we can vote on what you you know what you want or don't want But I don't think any intention was out there to to break any of those values But if there was if I'm not saying that that that that that you're no I'm sorry if there was a value do we at least agree That Like when is the time when it's just best that you you part ways When is that OK It say say it again like if if if there was physical violence right we would all agree that's not tolerated but we we won't if if these values here You're saying you do not believe it was intentional and I'm saying But if it if it was is that even a term if you found out that something was intentional do you believe that that's enough to to say hey not welcome here we're gonna best of luck it depends if you can prove that it's intentional and why So that's a hypothetical as it is so I don't really have an answer for that If it was proven I hope you would say yes Because otherwise what's the purpose of holding the values or at least correct it right but there's some really big ones like integrity and honesty I think are the ones that we we value My point is if we if we're in this world of well you just always improve and you never move and you're asking what change I'm I'm trying to be as clear as I can is that We believe that people leaving it sounds like for whatever reason is actually The reason we should move forward in the in the problems being fixed No we're saying that's part of the solution So the people who left it you're thinking is part of the solution I'm not I don't know why that's true I don't know why the building officials gone is the solution I don't know why that code enforcement officer being gone is now suddenly the solution I'm not saying it's the solution but this is where we're at now We're given a suggestion on how we should reorganize this So we either do it that way or again I go back to bring in the 3rd consultant not investigator consultant If I say investigator I apologize Then bring in a third person And get somebody else's opinion an outside opinion If you're not willing to accept this what the city is offering what the city manager is offering that is this is his solution after talking to everybody then what else do you want What what else is there to do You won't you know I'm not saying you council will not you know doesn't want an outside person to give their thoughts but they don't want to accept the what the city manager has to do So what are what are you suggesting to be done I mean you know I I can't give you a reason why these people left but it's done They're gone This is what we deal with now For whatever reason they left I don't really know I you know I'm not whatever but they're done I mean they're gone So this is what we have to do We have to move forward I'm so tired of rehashing this whole thing over and over and over I want to get it fixed But we're we're just doing the same thing over and you either accept what the city manager has to do or you offer another opportunity or different what else to do So I that that's where I'm at I don't think any of the code enforcement the building of it I don't think any of them intentionally went out there and did stuff I mean maybe I've done stuff later I think oh God that one made may not have been the best thing to do you know it happens we're human but I I will not you know unless you can prove to me otherwise that it was intentional on their part I you know I have a hard time believing that the staff would do that OK so thank you Um I think other proving otherwise um It is really it it's That's on our city manager's shoulders and I think we we can go into that depth but I I don't think that's productive use of our time We know what we we know and yes people are moving but It's blurry right now and things are moving and fix this and all these things and I'm seeing a path forward that Just as one example I don't see how we're gonna Without spending our own money or resolving the drainage issue But this goes back to I've got a thick folder I do not believe that when we talk about the values of I'm just gonna pick one Um We are dedicated to performing to the best of our abilities and going above and beyond to achieve the high quality results right The amount of information That we've went back and seen whether it be around The accuracy of the example we heard today in public comments about and we spent time on this document Or this this garage was cleared and then we go back through and we learned Well quickly a photo comes out and it wasn't cleared And and and how we kind of I think watered that down a little and just said that that was a that's a big deal I mean if you just stop and look at that that's a big deal To me And it's so much bigger than Individual who is directly involved It was Actually I didn't even speak to that individual It was the information I was provided With a high level of confidence that we can all go back again and over and then I was put on defenses oh you don't trust us And we go back and it was wrong so at a minimum why was that And we never got a good answer and it was stated in the meeting that That officer put that information Uh in there on 524 I don't know why it was cut off of the report How was that statement made that on 5 with such confidence after all this time and all this research I understand if I just hit you on the street and ask and you made him but like everything needs to be right and and uh That just was not the case at all and it was stated multiple times Councilmember Davis I can show you that type of little story there and I think we all can to tap in on multiple occasions around the same department with citizens and over and over again I'm exhausted I don't think anybody's denying that there were mistakes made I don't think anybody here is doing that staff council whatever we're not denying it What we're saying is we have to move forward We need to finally get this resolved However we need to we need to move forward We acknowledge that the mistakes are made We all make them So why keep going back over them We need to move forward I don't think when whatever whoever told you or whatever you're talking I don't think that person intentionally lied to you I mean you I'd have to pull him up here and ask him I don't think they would intentionally lie to you or or counsel No OK what's there's a different opinion Well we want to keep it but we have to move forward Absolutely And I'm trying but we have to move forward admitting that there were problems and to move forward If we we keep going up towards back We're never going to move forward I don't think we're moving backwards I think we are moving forward yes Council member Davis Jackson sorry Yeah Um I would like to request something from our city manager in regards to this whole conversation We we've gotten the report from you and the the org chart and looking at that Um as possible solutions Is there any way you could give us a second or 3rd option of things that could occur within that department To eliminate Some of these things From happening going forward So not necessarily looking at it like an org chart and movement of people but instead look at a task oriented Um type of document with the things that need to be improved on a very large scale not the the SOPs But in a large scale that would eliminate the things that we're talking about now So do we need to change procedures Do we need to look at how information is entered into BSNA um let's look at the objectives and the tasks that would alleviate it potentially first And then that way we can address the problems or the uh problem areas with the manpower And what that would look like later because the problem I have voting this going forward is all I know is or charts changing and there's gonna be SOPs processes in place But you know what if we know what the problems are and we're seeing a lot of the problems we've discussed them for 5 months Actually longer than that right 6 months So we should very easily be able to put together something that says these are our problems and this is what we need to do to fix those problems Then we can go back and and take a look at the art or chart and all that but I don't have a good feeling for that yet other than I know when your results Column you have those things but I don't know how those are how those problems are really going to be fixed I need to know what procedures are really gonna fix them as far as at a high level and overview for like You know we're gonna put in this checks and balances step to ensure that Anybody that goes out and inspects this property has gone through this checklist Um we're not gonna the person who would issue the occupancy permit they will not issue that until they determined and checked off in this and BS and A or whatever they need to do you know if we could see that kind of thing so we know that the process task That have to be repaired That we've got those instead of just looking at it having a personnel level it would help me Is there any way to do that I feel like that's I feel like that's that's kind of what I've been working towards with these recommendations for the the standard operating procedures There's new standard operating procedures that are being developed as a result of all this that have to do with those inputs and outcomes for each process Can you Can you give us just give us a flow chart on that then So on the you're you're working on them already So list them out And then tell us if if we do this we're gonna check it here and then that tells us it's good to go and we can go to the next step That's what I'm looking for And I know y'all are working on that We we intend to produce that document for you Um will it have flow charts Yeah it'll probably have some names whatever to to communicate to council how to how this is gonna be resolved because what I'm seeing is a human resources from a human resources standpoint But if I understand what that person's involvement and how the procedures have changed that I'm going to be more open to accepting just a personnel change on something Or an org chart change or change however we need to on the flow But right now I don't I don't know what y'all are working on on on catching these I see all of these things and we missed this and we went ahead and gave occupancy permit and this was verbal and that and this and that We need some checks and balances before we go to the next step I know that BSNA is kind of a new system for as of like 2019 or whatever But if I Could see processes and understand the improvement Be if it requires personnel I'm gonna I'm gonna be much more Open to looking at that that way And OK and and this is really it's a two-step it's a two-pronged approach One is the the SOPs which are process oriented step by step and training required perhaps remedial training The other part of it is the reorganization which is mostly based on um allocation of disciplines within the city um and in my opinion there's there's too much focus There's a lot of disciplines going on currently in the community and Economic Development department and splitting that up I think will help There there's more going on in that department I would say than any other department as far as so many things going on We look at the number of agenda items that come out of that department I would say it probably Beats any other department But Splitting that up means we can have the director's focus more closely on their processes without one director having all of these processes to be involved in So it's a it's a two-pronged approach is why I'm recommending that So it's it's having the processes and the procedures down in the SOPs but also um scoping of the departments And I'm gonna tell you something coming from large corporations How do you do it then Mr City Manager because you've got them all So how are you doing that You see what I'm saying though Sure but I've got I've got professionals that are responsible for each of those departments doing them But it ultimately comes to you So if you don't understand some of these things and you came from the departments that are having issues so you understand more better than most but you understand what I'm saying If how do we as a council make the decision to on this if we don't understand what what is our uh there's ought to be a proposed solution more than we're going to write procedures and we're here's a new org chart and that's gonna help No I want to know after listening to this and just the public comments that's concerning to me and it's concerning to all of us so I need to know how a simple or how an org chart change is gonna address the specific issues we have in this group Now I know what you're saying You're gonna have a more focused and all this no Was it what were the issues You've got them identified you know What's gonna fix that Just changing a person's gonna fix that or adding a person No there's got to be there's gotta be checks and balances and procedures and I don't know what those are That's why I was asking for an overview with the SOP that y'all are working on It would help OK That's all I had Well I think yes the issues uh we That that we got in the root causes in the exercise of listing them and pairing them up with solutions is is good It And we are tracking towards that When I go through each one of these where I believe that the disconnect is I The reason why these things happened First The history of Cape Canaveral is that for some reason some properties It remained blight And then some properties would seem like they were you know had had too much pressure on him And what we learned is that this happened quite a bit or a a resident would complain and then They get a response and some of these issues get solved brilliantly but I the trend around code enforcement Surf drive going back Uh and the answers that were being given to the Was that you know this is private property rights This takes a long time Uh you need to to to be patient We're proactively working it There was no way to verify anything other than come by and talk or do a full blown records request and then it's sort of you know Dependent on understanding the request and did you get everything And today we've we've we've come A lot further in some areas but what still lingers today and without a full court press on Jackson and thankfully that the property owners there the tenants peg that whole crew they were tenacious enough to stick with this and to follow this through and the same with the Hearst Was that most of this the the steam would have ran out on other ones and the reason it went so long is the question we have to ask ourselves This is like It's not just January 6 months This has been going on And people resolution doesn't happen and the reasons they're being told it's never our fault Seems like It's that's private civil that's this uh well you're gonna need to talk to the private property owner uh you know the process takes time Some of that's true but in this cases it it made no sense and that's how this city I think is operated for a long time in property sat there in issues happened and nothing more glaring and bright than than what we started seeing happening with literal Property life safety fire issues back in 2017 and 2018 there were notices of violations and they just go they just went away And compliance in the field No it wasn't How could it have been That's not true That that that that isn't misunderstood That isn't public perception that is inaccurate first attempt fine second attempt fine at 3 you're still saying that we're still saying the same stuff maybe in a little bit way let's move on Thousands of dollars that we're calculating over 6 months and all the time and the money and the resources and hourly ranges and our precious time I believe pales in comparison to two decades of private property owners on their dollar on their dime battling A code enforcement Department That did not represent these values Did not And it was On many cases I'm not saying willfully going in the direction of you know uh rebel or anything It just wasn't taken seriously That's how I feel Because first time OK 2nd time but this has now been full light the full council has eyes on it It's put on the agenda It was it has been tried to be suppressed at times Don't put it on the February agenda And if we don't if we did not bring this up Things would maybe get resolved and it would dwindle And and I do not believe it would get resolved and the same reasons that got us into this mess It is a mess I am not confident are being addressed Because We had we have All the laws We have constitution we have state constitution We have our ordinances we have Florida Building code We have our values This whole exercise was about common person reading chapter 162 which is short sectional code enforcement reading uh our our our code Looking at any standing operating procedures which there was none They're being written It's been 10 years this department This has been issued There was no desire to create an SOP to my knowledge Because there wasn't one created or at least talked about And I believe that it was intentionally not created I believe that There is a culture and a philosophy in the city of Cape Canaveral that the less you write the better off you are And I understand that But I can't I can't live that way and fix issues All that that props up is it allows everything to kinda be unverifiable And and in in it in its run I think too long on some things but on this one when we started forcing it in writing getting it back recording meetings God we can go back and you start putting it all together Efficient and effective and excellence in management and that Department has not been lacking because of processes and procedures Because I do not believe there was a desire to put the processes and procedures in place about as much desire as there has been to have an employee handbook There's I I a cornerstone issue between the transition of the last city manager and this one was the lacking of that And when when I ask myself why I think it comes down to the value of accountability I'm not saying that we're all just trying to run amok and go I'm saying in this department a very tough job Should be paid extremely well every police officer code enforcement officer fire I believe every employee of our city for the job and what we have to deal with in Cape Canaveral compared to other cities I'm proud and I hope we have the most competitive and attractive pay but that doesn't mean that job's easy That job is tough and I think we have paid and we've worked hard in in taxpayers invested in our officers our managers our directors to give a result And we think When it gets escalated and up the flagpole things would get resolved and if it doesn't get resolved we don't end up going well just We need a better process and we just need to move some people around yes But we got here For a reason I'm hopeful that we can get out But we need to ask ourselves if our values were not followed which ones and I do not believe they were within the The the parties that I dealt with within that department and it's been that way for a long time on multiple occasions Personally it it's it's all encompassing for me and I think all of us in different ways I've had codeforcement come to my door and try to write me a violation for parking on the rocks in my front yard That was one of the first early clues in a letter that in 2019 When this was going down when this property was sitting over there and and they and I believe our code enforcement should have been pursuing prosecuting the deficiencies and the issues at the Jackson Avenue property before uh Pegg and Scott bought it or or or leased it and tent it If you go back and and I was just going through history this and looking at it I was as a Doesn't matter On the receiving end of an email That the former Community engagement director was out taking photos in an anonymous complaint came in that I was parking in the grass or uh you can't park in your driveway because you know that it needs to be paved They basically wanted me to pave my whole driveway and not park in the garage And you know me being now I'm like oh gosh I don't want it and I start looking into it I'm like that's not what I see but OK respect the the officers and they're the experts and they know and through that's where it all began And it hasn't let up Every time it's like well that doesn't make sense And when a resident goes well how can they not be violating the code and you don't get clear answers and it just goes on and on and on And To me there's There's been plenty of time to try and resolve that And I don't I don't have a problem with the software I don't have a problem with the code I don't have a problem with the procedures I have a problem with why we As a collective unit did not especially when the council brought it As a code enforcement department Not Get our stuff together and get this stuff organized and I think the city has created a culture where If you want it you gotta come and get it you gotta come ask for it and I hope we we change And transparent in the direction with with BSNA but if If we don't We'll say we want that but it I do not see the actions that move us towards that goal And that's a really important one because when public trust is broken It has to be addressed As it happened accurately and statements were made to me councilmember Davis that I believe the person was not certain And And it is a best case and they what they said to me was at a minimum They're OK if they were if they were wrong As again as a best case but under these circumstances knowing I cannot make any sense why That one example of this event that happened that we heard about in public comments was inserted when you put it all together and how that was handled it is just Unacceptable and in Again not the individual This happened in the whole department Can I go back to my question We understand and acknowledge there's been problems You know this is for the city manager to handle it's an administrative procedure for him to do the organizational chart He's made suggestions Obviously you don't like those suggestions or it it appears that you do not like those uh uh suggestions So what are you suggesting I I I think that Our city manager if if this is the only option he's given I'm happy to share what I suggest But uh that's a decision for him And and I think that It is fair to say We're not talking about the org chart tonight Or it's not in front of us but yes I have an issue with with with the org chart Um it doesn't make sense to me but I got issues with a lot of things I also don't have any authority over the org chart So but but in fairness to the city manager he can hear that And I think he know he he I've spoke with him He knows I think we're we're My concerns are and It is really on him I think to figure out but It's a long-standing culture in Cape Canaveral And it's been allowed for too long and and I think that there's a unfortunately there's a You folks that Continue to I think uphold that culture and Over the past 10 years we've tried to break it and unfortunately it's it's still hanging on and I've seen it completely broken in other areas of the city and see major transformation but in this area I I I think it's continuing and it's a great amount of resources to try and pull this out and we're still to this day trying to pull and trust in question and well it's just really hard to to get to get it straight Yeah and we do want to get it right Um I've heard from a few council members on the reorganization and and I I'm finding that it's helpful to hear these things Could we hear from all the council members if that's OK Yeah Um I think you know I don't know when exactly we decided to go to less departments um I think that was a mistake I think it it we should have kept it the way it was I think we did it to save money Um I think that building departments should be on its own um And we've said as a council for the last 2 years Do you guys need help You know do you need more code code enforcement officers was the burden because they had too many uh open cases Um I think we've done what we can to to um help um but like the mayor was saying the code enforcement problem If you look at any survey that has been done in the city for a long time Code enforcement is always a problem and it's not an easy job Nobody likes the code enforcement officers but it's always been a problem I think I think we need to know more about the reorganization um chart and how the things are gonna work And I think the values that we have are very important and um and that should be the top priority for each department um and for something for us to strive for completely um I think a lot of missteps happened um In the evaluation from the city manager you know it was The right the the truth one truth the other truth and the real truth um That uh this whole thing has been very embarrassing to me as a council that it took this long to figure this out you know again I've said a million times we've We we're pro business and then we treated Peg and her her business like we did um and obviously there was a problem with the code enforcement officer there I don't think he was straightforward I think he was tolerated in the city longer maybe than he should have been Um there was a Uh Everybody I've been in the city 30 years and people I've talked to Everyone that I talked to about code enforcement had a problem with him And it's not just this past year It's been for a while Mayor may I interrupt I'm sorry We we did sign a separation agreement with a non-disparagement clause OK What does that mean for us means I can't say we shouldn't say anything disparaging We we for what we say Just saying in the spirit and the intent of the agreement was non-disparagement I don't want to do anything to sparing period with or without Right I don't want to be clear That agreement was No Bound by the terms of that agreement separation agreement signed by the city manager Well I I'll just hearing the council he found Morford Cham from I'm not I I didn't say that Mayor No I'm saying you said he signed it the separation agreement Former employee That's what the manager is referring to Mayor Tim Kell OK well Callum is just expressing Or opinion regarding Code enforcement Generally and mention it and not mentioning anyone's name to communicate Thoughts Not hearing anything that's disparaging I'm hearing that Anthony for clarifying Please I'm sorry for interrupting Um Anyway I just I mean I mean what I'm trying to say is this has been a long time a long problem And hopefully you know I would like like I said to learn more about and and really look into this separation of the departments and um You know how like uh councilman Jackson was saying how this is gonna work a flow chart you know maybe job descriptions for who's going to do what and Just learn about it and strive to to make the values in our mission statement our values our number one priority moving forward um Uh and I don't think the you know the motion that was made earlier to accept this uh findings Um is separate from Uh the organizational chart I think that it's a budget issue as well as everything else and it it shouldn't be part of the motion it should be two different things But um You know I'm for whatever we can do to make our city better better for the residents better for the people of the staff Um So I'm just you know looking forward to Uh making things Better for all of us And that's all I have Um Well I think uh the org chart Obviously it appears no one wants to vote on the word chart tonight So uh but I think in separating those departments your siloing the proper Flows And responsibilities And you're putting someone dedicated To that building official that code enforcement that would sit in that silo and control everything Um and not be distracted across multiple Types of projects that are Variable to To put it mildly and when you've got so many different things that you're having to deal with that's it's difficult But uh I as far as the flow the uh Or chart I I think it's the right direction to go In dividing these two departments um And I won't speak to any individuals on that Mayor I I know John's going to be asking me tomorrow morning because he's got a budget He's got a fund Are we still good with the org chart as presented because if I wanted to speak to One more time No I feel like I'm interrupting Yeah I just wanted one last thing um as I as I look at the org chart this may very well be something that we need to do But I mean I have to question the fact that These things were happening before those departments were in place When we took the part one and combined them they were happening And they're still happening today And since I've gotten on council things that are 2 years old and 3 years old keep popping up I know of one property that today in the city that is still paying for leaks when this um occupancy permits were permitted many many years ago and they shouldn't have been So I I am interested in process as you well know City manager I want to know that what we're doing is going to make a difference because to me we need the right people in place but you know what I need to know how this is gonna be resolved because Just putting people in a spot is not necessarily going to resolve it It could everything could continue on So I'm really interested in any of those Conversations That's all I have And Mayor if I could comment on that one I think that's a good point and um the the job description for the new department um that would have as described zoning code enforcement and building department in it I think a lot of that responsibility is going to flow out of that job description For day to day management of in ensuring that city codes for building code it's set up all all these things flow through that job description Working in tandem with the SOPs that are in the department which you'll see I think that that's where the control is and then we we put a person in place who's charged with That job a professional And I I don't know how easy it's gonna be to find that person It may be very difficult I don't know OK so as we're looking at doing those things um city manager I would like to request because one of the things that I've seen is or a perception that we have is lack of transparency you know we had records issues and this sort of thing and When you look at BSNA um it's a tool but it's only as good as the people using it and inputting it um We need to make sure that those tools are being used so that those things can be checked And when you're looking at the SOPs are you looking at those things Because unless those things are fixed Internally by our actions And that's where I have a hard time pulling all this together in my mind because if we keep the system we have and we move people around and do all of that and then no changes in their procedures are happening Guess what We haven't fixed anything So that's why I'm having a hard time just grasping how an org chart is going to change everything Not as a standalone it's not but I'm referring to the document that was submitted On June 18th at our meeting here this was more about code enforcement then and just looking at I'm just reading from that document um on the on the SOPs specifically um best practices for the public BSNA portal including examples of the types of documents which should and also should not be uploaded into the BSA and identifying which document should be publicly accessible via the BSNA portal That's an important distinction we learned from this um best practices for public records retention and Access to to include clearly differentiating between draft records and official records These are things we've learned and they're going to be in this SOP document OK And another one I would add in just from my background we need some customer service training Customer service is number one to me OK Because I hear all of these things we need that too because we've got a perception problem So for me those things are kind of important That's why it makes uh when you look at it as granular as I do I have a big picture view but I know what it takes to fix things and I want to make sure that we're addressing all of the issues on the different levels because if you're just dressing one and moving employees around and we're not um taken the other things into consideration that we have the issue And it's it's to me it's presented a little backwards We need to look at at the SOPs and then talk about Who's managing what Because if we don't look at the procedures how do you know you know It's one of those things for me So thank you Mayor just because I know John's going to be asking me where we stand on the organizational chart and I know we're not making a decision on that tonight but are are we consensus of support for it or support for something else What is the other option We haven't I haven't presented another option um but if there's support for this I mean I would just like to know that at least I'm sure you would I would like to know other options I think Option in front of us Now if you if that's your only option Well I think it's it's a trap It's yes or no but there are other options Sure sure and we can certainly discuss that I don't I also don't want to interfere I've been told about interfering with the administration and so this is this is administrative um I I think I've made it clear I don't I don't think it's OK dialed this one in really close and I've looked at process Us and and when I see Problems that exist are are not there by just a little oversight or oops it is a longstanding culture That do not align with the culture of our values That's That's big stuff and so the recommendations I'm looking for are around how do you fix that And if some of those I don't see how processes and procedures I The process is in the procedures You can always improve make it clear yes we need pro procedures but we had processes and procedures state law ordinance code And the culture was to not lead with that and to not show that it it was Everything out and and and find things and things go Uh it's too messy it's too many questions for our local government to be operating that way Properties So there there is a trust issue and I think when we have that we have to bring in Some more some more options so uh if you want our feedback otherwise uh you can proceed I think there's nothing needed For us to make that decision but I do appreciate you asking Thank you for the feedback counsel I think he's looking for feedback I I think that's all I'm going to get tonight OK All right well I think the the big things I wanted to say is I do not believe it's a civil matter I think that that the city and we've heard the public comments I I'm gonna feel a lot better when not only can we say that these are the problems But If we if we look into it I think what we'll end up at the same spot and the reality of of of Of what's needed is We were these policies and procedures have been Coming and and they haven't came And I don't know if We we're going to to get them I know that's the plan I really don't and and when the policies and procedures we did have were so difficult to get That does tell me that there's not a There's not a policy or procedure and Therefore there's no standard to hold accountable And so today whether it be a job description that I've requested or that the HR handbook that's I think been in the 90s but it's not official or it is Chapter 162 The building code all of that our values Um Or are just falling short and so when the Allen engineering we can't get in touch so I don't think it's a civil matter just only of course there's civil issues I think we've got issues and until we can look at those issues it's gonna be a problem The stormwater inlet there was talks about gas lines and stuff the bonding I think we talked about the financial coverage also that plating process I had an issue with that It did not make any sense with me why the preliminary plat and the final plat were being approved at the same time Because the requirements for the preliminary plat are different than the the requirements for the final plat the PNZ approved preliminary final and sight all in one and then when the council got it we did And when I run that back through going through the full preliminary process and the full final pro process the bonding requirements and all those that come in Those issues in the site plan and the changes would have been caught in between preliminary and final I think or could have been caught but they were sort of merged because it was I think a considered a smaller project that didn't make it wasn't We weren't required to merge those but that's just another example of us I think Omitting a step that that doesn't We were looking at preliminary plat Requirements and and I don't think that the final plat requirements were in there I spoke a little bit about why that relates to bonding Thank you to David for bringing that forward as well Um the swale outback has been there There's no consistency in what the letter that we received from the developer and quoted by our city manager it does not make any sense that nor would I say that's fact They're serious inconsistencies that were asked in the questions about the timing of that The statement that the soil was done and then FPL came and messed up The swale might have been done but the soil was not done correctly right And and so if it was done incorrectly FPL at worst could have just kept it incorrect And so that was presented to us that there was knowledge that it wasn't corrected and The idea that once these become warted as our city attorney said I like that or hairs on them or have or issues I I sensed that that we that's where we need our managers our directors our city attorney our city manager to go all in And I've been just like pulling and I don't think it's been very serious Because this meeting was a special meeting and just keep going back The last meeting and you go through We have to to Force these conversations of course it's taken a significant amount of time but People have been I think in the city of Cape Canaveral um taking advantage of for a long time in that department And I don't think that's right And I and I and I mean that and I'm and I and I don't say that just lightheartedly I say that with serious just because I don't believe we heal unless we stay as close to the truth as we possibly can I'm not going to sit over here and say Anymore that well just has nothing to do with the people I think it does in this circumstance in these departments we've got some people and moving them is a viable idea Sure But what I'm seeing doesn't make sense And if you don't want to see it I don't think you will see it And That's what we're up against Can't we just move on That would be nice I'd love that but I can't And it's too long to go through and too painful and plus I owe it to the folks who've been here they know who've dealt with our code enforcement in Mayor Pro Tim Callan It hasn't just been like any other city right It it's this it's the same issue and and it's a and there's just a lot of money going into BSNA I think finance is squeezing a ton of value out of it and using it But in that department I mean when we got into the unofficial and the official documents and the records and just come by and we should have talked about all this stuff Was a big big block And we pulled in one document out at a time and put it together and it's incorrect It doesn't make sense or that form doesn't exist And we're just gonna move on No I don't think we need a consultant to tell us that I would love an investigation when the time is right I'd love in a consultant to come in here I'm not against any of that Doing it right now Why Why right now Sure let's do it right now That's not gonna accomplish anything So it's not It's only going to prolong and we're gonna wait But haven't we seen it enough and I think That's that's it So uh Uh The photos the timelines the text the um the uh endless amount of work that citizens did to keep track of their own records I mean that right there the fact that they had to keep records and that's not why couldn't they just go to the cities wes website and see it I do not believe that desire to to to bring forth those values was there And maybe it was because there's too much on the plate That's been we've been talking about that for a long time I genuinely sense that the mentality at Cape Canaveral within that department is they will go away What's the time to people just go away I do believe that selective enforcement was clearly happening It has to be stated I do believe that city employees have said things to me that they do not believe is true and they know it Why Not even all bad almost noble cause they don't want the city to be in a bad light I respect that We don't have time for that anymore It's been decades Of of this pain misery people packed left Done with it discussed it And they're not all wrong and I was led to believe that there's a few crazies out there who are just gonna r your cage and every once in a while they'll get you But in here we're gonna do great and we're gonna do great things And while there's a lot of great things that we're doing and and we're gonna keep doing This area was was was not one of them and I and I've been patient with it and so major overhaul is what I'm looking for and I hope to see it because But you should not do a major overhaul Todd if you don't see it the way I see it You should not Why would you Why would you move forward because somebody else you have to make your own decision But if you need any clarity on the way I see it I'm happy to to to to expand further than what I've said tonight but I really heard I think we've heard from the resident that there's no way If you go through I was going back through the surf drive email the answer that Pat Campbell got from our code enforcement about was Unacceptable about the pool being out of the ground We use the word proactive That's a big one in code enforcement that I do not see Proactive How do we get this city into compliance its response which is a huge part and I know you can't always enforce all the code but there was no it was Only if you reach out And what we learned in this case is when someone reached out they didn't get service They got served directly They responded with their dollar and their legal authority and their time and all the risk and all the vulnerability of both the Hearst uh the Berkeley's the Bensons the uh Downings uh the shawlers all the Ellie Mays family all that risk to go against the policing powers of the city That's intimidating and it's really intimidating to sit up here and my one of 3 votes and say that But they they put themselves out there and they and they went to that level And We see what happened And They didn't get a response Think about that the last email where Ellie Mays was sent a stiff la By our city notice of violation That was countered and and legal letter went in To be forwarded to the entire council and I was told that this is a matter of administration that it was being worked on with the legal team and that I was reminded that hey stay in your lane Sort of thing But then nothing nothing ever came out but I was told it was being handled And the rest of the council I don't know if ever got it It but I felt that they needed it and the the the person who submitted it and the points made by the attorney were good And most residents don't invest that I don't want to get an attorney I don't wanna do that They did it And it and it just It just goes away No pressure that we're about to issue a notice of violation We are on the clock We got state law We better have our stuff together They never get a reply Nothing And they keep fighting And today those points are well taken Why are we doing business like that Why are we just not responding to to we're accusing somebody of a violation and then you send us a letter Uh yeah we'll just take it down That's that's not professional Maybe I'm wrong but Miss Shaer has a comment card You can speak for yourself but I don't think you ever she ever received a reply to that I would have to go back and look at it I'm not remembering exactly when that was and what was said This is the first time we brought it up in a very long time Well it's a major part of this entire investigation I mean the whole timeline that you put together was why is she receiving a notice of violation So But I go back to to the the full circle is I I don't think I don't think we were honoring our values when that decision was made and it wasn't just one individual who's not here That went all the way up the flagpole All the way up the flagpole and then it went out You're referring to when she hired an attorney and forwarded it and you asked me to send it to the council of violation went out from our city all the way up the flagpole to to Ellie Mae's over an alleged violation This is I think the 2nd The parties Intimidating you receive a letter Respond higher I don't know if they hire an attorney responded to it to the city and sent it Questioning The notice of violation raising valid points OK so all that stuff and I'm like OK And I just wanted to make sure the rest of the council was aware I didn't view that as Because Sunshine law especially if I ask our city manager and It wasn't sent to them so I don't know if they were ever made aware But then I'm saying what was it whatever happened to that Um I'll look into that and respond I can respond to a portion of that OK Yeah I I do recall that letter very well As a matter of fact one of the issues that the attorney brought up was how we were looking at seating for the property bar versus restaurant That impacts this number of um parking spaces that are required How we evaluate a use And he brought up some very valid points and as a matter of fact I think they can Peig can probably verify this for me I hope she can Is that based on that letter from the attorney We agreed and we took a whole we we reduced the number of parking spaces that we were looking at and requiring so Pardon We did this counts are reduced No no no no You you this council eliminated parking Oh you're saying I'm talking about when this case started We were looking at the um Um the parking requirements for a so I recall it was a bar Or excuse me a a restaurant The The attorney made some good points We reevaluated our approach We agreed with him and we changed our we changed our position So I don't certainly don't want anybody in here to think that That letter went was pushed under and wasn't considered or wasn't evaluated that's definitely not the case When was that Oh boy I can get you a copy of the letter I'd be happy to and get it to you tomorrow I did see um in the records is that The thrift store owner was fully aware The tiki bar being built because of the fact that that was the person that pulled that permit right So with the tiki bar being built she had kind of expect an increase in people right And then I saw a notice of violation for parking when a complaint was filed against the thrift store owner and I think that's where you start seeing the things that it makes it questionable and that's why the transparency and those things are important because he would have had to have known from the beginning as the person who filed the permit that that was going to increase traffic into the back of the restaurant when the tiki bar was built and the permit was filed by him But if you agreed with the attorney You're saying you received the letter from and that you agreed with it Did we communicate that or did they live in anxiety for the next several weeks wondering you know what's gonna happen It's like the spider in the web or the city And they're just running around and you can't verify this letter you can't go on BSNA There are unofficial and official documents There's in there's nowhere to go there's no refuge other than come by and see And what I've learned is when you come by and see you don't get all the info It's a very protectionist culture And it's allowed for a lot of bad things to happen in the city to residents to taxpayers to property owners It's not fair to you or anyone else to continue to live with that culture whether you want to accept it or not until we have our records online accessible They're all official and unofficial That takes time that takes work I don't I think that we're a fail because we don't have all that today But The effort we've had to do to just get the level of transparency we have has been tough but worse isn't just change transparency is then we find out that wasn't being done That's what we learned from this That's my my response is what a building official what a code enforcement officer what a community economic development director what it could and senior code enforcement officers and I've only seen one of those 4 job descriptions is required to do was not I think is I want to know that They deal with problems that's not proactive Are we what is our code on compliance rate what is what are the things That I don't value Budget from 20 million adding 5 million adding 10 million to it this bigger budget Which is what we we did last year we increased it the year before And then just throwing more and more money at it to to What we've got to do is with what we have Make the resources we have work better and that does require moving around But it's deep It's not it is deep I can't sit up here and say a process changes Now this is this is cultural and I believe anyone can change I believe in transformation But until we all agree that and if I'm the only one crazy over here that thinks that that it's deep cultural and it is severe value related Then then we should just I think not look at that and and and go for some of the lighter uh recommendations but um From what I've seen and I it it it's Its issues This is an old email uh uh from from Early ones who started calling out some of the issues to me and to the code and all these folks tried the process with the working with the citizens The continuous tactic of misinformation The presentation of irrelevant information The presentation of untruthful or deceitful information as fact The intentional withholding of relevant information the inability to show compliance with all aspects of our ordinances The inadequate staff support relating to specific requirements in Our ordinances nailed a lot of the things that I'm feeling and I felt for a long time So that's it I can talk I've probably missed some stuff I really wanted to drive home in this time that we have um but Where we left off last time We were waiting to receive it all I still don't think we've received it all I see City manager's name on the the report that was provided I don't know if our city attorney It's state is not A part of that document or supports it or you would sign your name that's another anxiety level that I get is I will get stuff from Todd As I understand it And from you is our legal opinion Those those stay separated and I think This is a time we need to bring them together It's that's sort of that that's a part of the culture too right It's you gotta ask the building official and I'm not saying this is our fault but put yourself in our shoes Well you have to dash the code enforcement officer We have to ask the manager We have to ask the director and the more we say that It It's the scavenger hunt to get the answer I I need to lean on our city attorney In this on some some legal recommendations I was hoping to seek where it falls short is a strict compliance to the city code statues and the ordinances was not completed on this and the task that the engineers went out I believe that report was worded carefully to not state that it was not compliant with the code in what you pointed out That was what was asked I that was asked was number one obtain An engineering report And and I'm not gonna read it And a building report on cited codes failed inspection revised see if it meets applicable it meets or exceeds all applicable city codes So the question is is Did the engineers state that it complies with kitty code I don't think they did I think they talked about practice And and we don't have any authority over the practice and stuff All we have and we raise our right hand It's the constitution state country and the code and the ordinances And so what I was asking for was was the code followed by our building officials our departments was our job responsibilities was code enforcement I think the answer is no I've seen enough to say the answer is no and whose fault is that That's on us That's one that's my fault That's Mayor Pro Tem's fault it's everybody's fault We're here to fix it But if you don't think that that was the problem and if you don't think that those procedures should be in place and should be followed well then I think you think your recommendations are are suitable and I don't see it I can't I'm not looking at this grow in the budget adding more problems We've got to dig down deep and and and I think make a shift a big shift if we don't Get out in front of this um It's We're a small city and Todd you were our you sat in this position is building officials community development director David has stepped into that role and that role is struggle That's Mr Mayor I'd like to just say call a question We do have a motion on the on the table Yeah OK Ready We restate the motion We do have public comment too if we can do that if if you desire um it doesn't matter it's just one card That's fine We do have the motion Yes we do So the motion doesn't do anything I don't think but I'm happy to receive this as long as it is known as that is not saying that um because I I I have received it um but if if for I'm not approving anything And I don't Eating today was about talking about it Sorry The motion made by council member Willis was to accept the report And accept the proposed reorganization listed in the proposed budget I mean you didn't say it exactly like that but that's I believe what you meant And then you seconded and the mayor asked Do you want Those motions together or separate and Mr Willis said together OK Sometimes just floating it if you want them through obviously stick with it and and vote your position but if we just want to vote it That down and do another one we can do that too or part of it We are voting on both We don't have to take any action tonight I don't think unless our city manager wants us to to give him some sort of Thank you I think the city manager asked for consensus on where we stood I did as far as the organizational structure yes sir And I think he has that Do you have that to your satisfaction I believe Councilmember Davis yourself and council member Mayor Pro Tem Kellum are are in favor of that organizational restructuring if please correct me if I'm wrong on that That is the same orders OK There's there's there seems to be consensus for that and or other options Is that is that what I'm hearing The consensus is on is there a consensus from councilmember Davis and Councilmember Willis on that What exactly Say it again I don't mean to speak for Mayor Pro Tem Callum but I believe she's saying she supports a revised organizational structure But not look at only one option Would it be best if I just withdraw that from the motion Because you're gonna you you have that consensus if you do if that is indeed the consensus of this council Well I I am for Reorg I don't even have the org chart in front of us Yeah Let's just go ahead and vote and see where we go Just vote and see where we go And we're gonna be tackling this get it ready for Tuesday Um That why you need it tonight No no no it's just it's going to help in the budget preparation process that's all OK Yeah I don't unders I mean I don't have enough information to vote on this it wasn't Yeah if it was a separate motion and be able to if we vote for I would vote against it just so that that second doesn't get through if you want to do that OK and then you can make a new motion or we can make a new motion Do you wanna do that Is that OK Can can I make a statement so we're leaving the motion as is OK OK Are you ready I just wanted to you know clarify that on Tuesday we have a workshop and council will see Right The entire budget So as we as we approach Tuesday um and you're gonna vote on this potential organizational chart that you've seen In the in the budget you know you could vote on that tonight and you could formulate your ideas the city manager After we go through the workshop and the council meeting there will be collective changes To the budget and whether or not there's changes to the Organizations chart based on the questions the council has and the the and the impact the financial impact of that That could be asked of the city manager and then at that time the city manager may decide that He wants to change the or he he as the administrative authority wants to change the organization chart or keep it the same and press forward Because he can justify that and uh and at least council will know The dollars in the budget because council will also be Voting on setting a pre preliminary millage and then moving forward from there So the workshop you could do a lot of your Work in the workshop and we're going to move forward and things may change and you may have an August Uh workshop and um just as we do every year when we come up to the first budget hearing in September is when is the 11th hour and then you gotta set things straight because we got to keep timing And you know approve what we're gonna approve for the budget and Then we can meet the state's requirements when we do the 2nd reading of the ordinance in September So just remember the whole process So actually whatever you do here tonight Y'all are gonna be talking about it on Tuesday and You'll make you'll you'll give your Uh recommendations and then you know we'll go from there but I I think that's the best way the best way to say it you know it gets everything in context for you And I do have another option in mind that I can Review with counsel also Um so that'll be another option to mair Protem Kellum's point And if the city manager goes ahead regarding the org chart yeah and if the city manager goes ahead and gives you another option on Tuesday He will be able to tell you With the financial impact is that like for instance if you're adding a person another $100,000 right for another director or whatever he'll be able to tell you how that changes based on him showing you his other option but ultimately that's the city manager's decision on what organizational chart you want to use but but the city manager's concerned because whenever you change your organizational chart it could change about 30 pages in the budget That's why he's saying exactly That's John Oh thank you learning that So yeah the motion is as is uh I'm not gonna support it just cause the second half but if we vote if we just want to receive the application do that separately I think that would go 50 I don't know how Can't not receive OK any further discussion on this OK City clerk Council member Davis Council member Jackson Against Mayor Pro Teim Callum against Mayor Morrison Councilmember Willis Motion fails to to 32 uh Take action motion Make a motion to receive the City manager's report At a motion by Councilman Willis seconded by Councilmember Davis just for clarity by receiving the report it is not necessarily approving or I think more of an acknowledgement receipt I'm in favor of that Any further discussion Council member Davis Council member Jackson or Mayor Pro Tem Callum or Mayor Morrison Council member Willis Passes 50 and with that we now have no more open motions on the table City manager you had mentioned a couple of loose end items that I captured early in the meeting And we do have Peeg's card Hag if you'd like to Still speak Come forward I haven't forgot And I'll circle back city manager on those items I think you had you had mentioned um If needed This is public comment We sort of did one in the beginning one in the middle one in the end So if anybody chooses to speak we do want to open it up Thank you for for your patience and and anyone listening at home I will give you an opportunity as well with that Plours Thank you I've heard tonight that you don't want to take action because of mistakes And that we all make mistakes I am not here and have not been here for the last 6 months because of mistakes I am here because of lies OK the council has a a duty To uphold what they say in your values and that integrity And honesty matter And nobody can even say the word Nobody can even say the word These are not mistakes You don't make a mistake and say oh I I I thought the garage was clear when it wasn't That's a lie You don't make a mistake and say there is a complaint that somebody made When the complaint Wasn't made That's a lie And then when you prove it Beyond a reasonable human being's doubt you prove it and you say well it it casts shadows on that on on a cast some doubt on that No that is a lie I'm not here haven't been here because people make mistakes People make mistakes all the time But I have The disappointing part to me Is that it took city council to get together for the last 6 months Because in my opinion city manager and Dave Dickey knew that these things were not true They were in emails This didn't happen guys no action taken This isn't happening guys no action taping the building is still unsecured guys no action taken It didn't really get taken until the mayor had to get involved and ask why are why is Peig struggling to get these things done So we talk about a waste of time a waste of time has been by not being forthcoming with the information and not being willing to root out people within their organization that weren't telling the truth and they knew it And you guys are still struggling to even say I mean here we go again incorrect statements misstatement mistakes I'm sorry guys these are called lies I'll be happy to sit down with each one of you and tell you when they happened where they happened and who knew they happened And then we can talk about where this waste of time came from It's difficult spot for me to be in because I need the city We just purchased the building We got some changes that we want to make I need the city but I also cannot turn my back on the fact that we've been struggling with this for so long Thank you You Anybody else would like to speak please come forward Raise your hand uh and those online same no hands raised or anyone here We'll go ahead and close it up Thank you all for for taking the time out of your day to speak through this City manager uh those two issues I think that you had raised earlier I remember bringing up the um recommendation about retaining the services of an experienced contract code enforcement officer Um that was one that I had one of my recommendations I'm drawing a blank on what that second one was though that we talked about Um Maybe we already addressed it No actually I'm looking in the wrong spot uh A Coppe Yeah and we we owe those to the to yeah I wrote SOPs and contract code enforcement is is that it Yeah the contract code enforcement officer and the SOPs are yet to come But I mean I'd like the council's thoughts on the recommendation of the contract code enforcement officer I think that there's a need for a a director Who would would build that team And that that director should decide on contract in-house employees work with our city attorney and city manager and and that director needs to own it see the problems I don't think there's any SOPs to hand off I don't think that anyone has should hand off any SOPs That problem that absence of SOPs that lack of direction uh is there and we need to to bring someone in who's going to implement them and say this vision this mission these values this SOP this is how we're going to do it It's gonna be transparent You're gonna know what's going on And we're gonna we're gonna put these measures into place every single day and we're going to transform the perspective and the perception based on Legitimate Values being broken within the city and restore those values I don't think we're going to should be building a team around that department to then bring a director because what we need is I think I have that vision Or it's you typed obviously if you have if that's your vision Then then that's OK from my understanding your management style you really depend on your directors to to to bring you good information so you can be responsive and delegate quickly and I think it That code enforcement officer decision um Structure to be or or whatever the decision is to direct but um that's my thoughts on it is again departmental um issues council if I could add it might help Um we are down one code enforcement officer from a budgeted position perspective right now and I would like to get that position filled Um my suggestion of having it be a contract code enforcement officer was specifically for the transparency Um but um if if council's kind of ambivalent on that Um I can I think it's the short term Um It could be for several months it could be a year I I like the idea of fresh eyes and that transparency that that gives that that's the whole idea behind it I think Right Obviously the code needs to be enforced and if you don't have the resources and it's budgeted to enforce it and a a contractor um Uh In work um That that position is it's a big department chef that that who I don't know who these folks are and do they know what they're walking into and the red Council can help weigh in on the idea of a contractor I think the city manager wants to know What we think about that I think a contractor would be A good interim measure Um one if To your point Mr Mayor if you're putting in a director over code enforcement and building officials and etc if we were to go with the the new org chart By chance um then that new director could fill All of the positions that are needed and then the contract Code enforcement contract would be Voided then You just end Yeah that's a good way that we could look at it but we wouldn't have that new director until after October 1st anyways As a budgeted position right but it it might help us with our uh Our customer service issues Yeah That that um I'm for it so so interim being until the new director decides it's time to end it and bring on somebody on staff yeah OK I agree with that so I'm for it Thank you Ate Um yes um We had agreed a while back to hire another code enforcement officer Would that be We did budget into that for this proposed budget And this would be another code This is just filling the vacancy that we currently have but we do need Yes code enforce Yes because what we want to do is have somebody that can focus explicitly on vacation rentals undividedly Mhm So In this upcoming budget there's a contract code enforcement and a re well I don't think of it as a contractor It's just we have a we have a current code enforcement officer vacancy whether it's contract or not It's it's a current one that will also continue in the next year But in next year has added another code enforcement position I would be for it and then when a director comes in and Thank you I have I have another question Contract wouldn't go against our headcount would it As far as full time equivalent positions there's still FTEs they're still there No if they're a contractor They're not part they're not a city they're not a city employee They're a contractor That's my point So that would come under that we didn't come under contract services within that department So it could be less expensive a full-time employee It could be but I haven't been I haven't been briefed on what that person will be I don't know I don't know how high level that'll be up to Todd it's I'm just I I I I like the idea of what we're what we're purchasing even if it's more expensive is a commitment we're showing a commitment to getting this right at the boots on the ground level Yeah has to be enforced Yeah Yep and and maybe we expand on that when we get into the org chart I think contracted employees I mean like our city attorney and Contract but he's on the org chart obviously in appointed position by the council and um city managers I guess technically But they're they're all different um I think it's I think it's good and I think So um About it again on Tuesday Was there any what was the other thing so the SOPs that are coming Yep And and those will be reviewed by the city attorney as well as directed by the council and mayor to earlier comment about tonight's item Yes it was reviewed with the city attorney before it was distributed Thank you I um Council I think My hope was to separate this from the regular council meetings So so we can have our council meetings maybe it lingers um Yes I did say resolve but the truth is is we're waiting to get these things done We have it I appreciate everyone's time to talk uh through this I've weighed on it thought about it heavily for time uh multiple convictions and feeling you know what is the right choice talking to residents and trying to make sense and do the right thing and I know that some of my words maybe tonight or in the past uh might be Perceived as you know disrespectful um and I I do not mean it that way I I just see a lacking a lack of Um Fire for a lack of better words and in grit on the seriousness of this issue As it's taken a lot of time but That has raised another issue is how much cause we didn't know in January that quite a lot to do That that is a stomach It in that department Um and The budget ultimately I think is gonna answer some of these questions But I am not Clear on the path forward and I am not convinced that we think that these are city issues that we need to fix on Fillmore Avenue That we need to fix or if we are going to maintain the position that this is a civil issue I need clarity on that Well as I understand it I'm just going to repeat what I would call the consensus and I think this is a good idea On Monday you and I will get with the contractor and explain this council held a meeting There was consensus to move forward with a demand letter that will specify a time frame that we're willing to wait for these these um improvements to be made And if they're not done that the city will cause all of the improvements to be made In accordance with the approved plan And then look to the contractor To reimburse us with every tool we remedy we have available under law Just explain to him that that's what that's what this council's direction is to do Or as we talked about building official I own to make building Dave But I don't think we're looking at revoking COs at this point We're looking at the demand letter path correct I would like yes I but if if I I don't think we were That was a decision the building official would have to make Of a building official to weigh in We do we do but I I I think that we're also concerned that that may be fraught with some other perils concerned about the demand It's hard to say yes the demand letter Confident I don't know where our leverage is Uh unless I'm missing something Of the leverage I think we have I will OK I I I'm sorry I um Is all those questions I do think the the demand letter if we because we already decided to go that route that In and of itself Means we should not go the revocation route because that will actually cause everything to be in compliance Right And then we have nothing to revoke That's all I have um Council any other Uh I would I would just like to see The Parties that are meeting on Friday Hear what they have agreed to do first I understand that your comment earlier tonight was let them lead Let them lead with what they're going to do and then if it doesn't measure up Yeah And and report to hammer down agreed I think that's the smart way to address that OK Well I think his letter said that they want to bring it in compliance but we can build off that uh Mayoror Tim Callum any comments anything Councilmember Jackson While that's occurring and while we're waiting to hear information back from their meeting on Friday Let's find out what alternatives are and their costs just in case You know that's something we're gonna need to know for Agreed Yes it's been going on a long time We need to get this resolved Uh council member Davis Willis and I'm clear Thank you attorney I'm committed to seeing these things fixed Thank you Thank you counsel and everyone involved and with that For a motion to adjourn a motion to adjourn A second