15 2024 it is 3:30 PM we are at the cape canaval city council City Hall Chambers for our Workshop meeting at 100 P Avenue in Cape canaval Florida I call this meeting to order mayor Pro Tim Kellum would you please lead us in the pledge I pledge alance to the flag of United States of America and to the repic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you city clerk please call the role council member Davis here council member Jackson here mayor protim Kellum here mayor Morrison here council member Willis here this time is public participation portion of the meeting anyone who would like to speak on an item please we ask that you submit a card uh I don't have any cards at this time those of you uh in the event we we the audio issue that we're experiencing uh is resolved uh if you'd like to speak at any point maybe during the meeting and you're able to raise your hand we will recognize you and do our best to facilitate a remote uh public participation with that we'll go ahead and close public participation portion of the meeting we have one item for discussion today at this Workshop which is EV charging station additional options new trends in the state of the industry discussion this is submitted by council member Jackson with that council member Jackson if you'd like please you have the floor thank you mayor um you're we're going to talk today about some of the options that we have available and some of the information that I've gained on our EV Chargers since we have installed the swipers so this workshop's going to be to explore and Define how to keep our EV charging stations under evaluation and profitability looking at cost benefit analysis and also uh taking a look at the state of the industry and ensuring that our our program for Chargers covers themselves we'll also talk a little bit about reporting and hopefully come to a consensus on what council would like to see as far as the EV Chargers and Reporting so that we can monitor them so city clerk if you would put up the PowerPoint for me please and also it looks like our monitors are off should we power those on and if so I think it's is it down at the bottom right or or I can wait on you yeah maybe a little power flicker or something so council member Jackson you have a PowerPoint that we'll see looks like council member Willis is operating guys I can't cut my mic off I thought so did I use the day of challenges okay let everyone get settled back in thank you city clerk your is the yes it's on down I believe in that document that's one we will go back and refer to further down Mia Mia thank you okay so that was really the head our page we're going to talk about our e Chargers and how we can take a look at these things I just went through that now thank you you city clerk that's exactly where we need to be so we need to take a look at determining the net present value of the EV charging project see if that was done in the beginning this is not necessarily something that municipalities will often do however if you want to look at profitability and making sure that we get our return on our investment for these um Chargers then we would want to take a look at that so we would determine cash inflows and outflows determine the discount rate and the equivalent annual costs and we would provide look at providing to council and the city manager in the future the equivalent annual cost for the charging stations including the annual cost of owning operating and maintaining that asset over the entire lifespan and this gives us C the ability to make capital budget decisions related to the charging stations and make sound decisions on the cost effectiveness of the city asset and its lifespan and so not knowing whether we've done this before because I was not on Council when this occurred uh we would want to take a look at going back and looking at each year so we know our total cost of our investment so we would then take a look and determine if there's a negative net present value for the project which would indicate that that expected rate of return will fall short in the project project will not create value so normally you would start this before the project when you're looking at a capital asset such as any type of equipment so the net present value is used to calculate um the the value of the project and it gives us the present value of the cash inflows and the present value of cash outflows over a period of time which we definitely need to have that available um with this because of the fact that in the beginning when EV charging stations became popular the way to get people to convert to EVS was to offer free charging which is a pretty attractive deal not having to pay for your fuel costs however over time cities and states and municipalities have found out that this is a very can be a very expensive and costly Endeavor if you have a lot of people charging ing so a lot of people a lot of cities and states have made changes to where they are going in and just like the city of cap canaval we've put swipers on the machines so we would look at the cash inflows the present value of the cash cash outflows over a period of time and we use this in corporate or in capital budgeting and investment planning so that we can analyze the profitability of a projected investment or project and the result of the calculations will find that and give us a current value of future streaming of payments so that we know what to expect and we would use a discount rate which I'm going to give you a a little bit of information on that on next slide and when you get a positive um Net Present Value then you know your Project's worth looking at and if it's a negative Net Present Value that means you're going to have to pay to keep that project going so the net present value is used to calculate the current value of the future stream of payments from a company project or investment and to calculate that you have to estimate the timing and amount of future cash flows and pick a discount rate equal to the minimum acceptable rate of return the discount rate may reflect the your cost of capital or the returns available on the alternative Investments of comparable risk and if the net present value of a project or investment is positive it means its rate of return will be above the discount rate so this is these are calculations that we would have our financial um director do so the total investment cost um and an actual amount spent to date what we would be looking at and what I would recommend and hope that I can get a consensus with Council today is discuss the costs been on the EV Chargers since we installed them and from the Inception of the adoption of the devices the initial cost any installation cost our maintenance cost our our electricity cost before the SL swiper install and upgrade and also after that install and upgrade any repair costs any replacement equipment costs upgrade costs mainten a contract price and terms and the value of the grants that we received for the equipment and part of the equivalent annual cost calculation the council should have total spent to date to determine the value and ability to reou expenses on the project and we missed a page there we go was that uh city clerk is that I think there's several before that no that was it okay okay so here is an example of the cost to charge a Tesla Model 3 and model y range and charging times along with the cost to charge and you'll see for example we have a level two charging uh equipment that's the type of equipment that we have so at 57.5 kilowatt hours you have 10.4 hours to charge the car and if the car has the capability of 79 kwatt hours and the equipment then you have 11.5 hours to charge the vehicle and you'll see these are specs sourced from Tesla and you'll see the rates below so you'll see that low rate states and these are averages with the 57.5 kilowatt hour with low rate states it's $7.50 High rate states uh 2780 and with DC fast charging 2758 so that's our cost for that 57.5 and you'll also see that with the 79 U kilowatt hour uh types of models so the Tesla Model 3 and model y cost around $82 to charge and you'll see according to the Bureau of uh Labor Statistics the average price of electricity in the US is 17 cents per kilowatt hour I do not know what hours is here so that's something we could investigate in energy and cheaper cities like St Louis and Seattle you can pay as little as 13 but we need to make sure that we're covering the cost of charge as well as aligning ourselves to our Market as far as the kilowatt hour prices so specs from Tesla once again 82 KW hour battery will cost an average of 13954 for a full charge across the country and there are cheaper States you will have that may pay 1066 while more expensive regions could be 39 36 and this is all with their superchargers or those are not their supercharg the superchargers R between 50 cents and a dollar per kilowatt hour so it all depends upon the level of the charger as well as the cost of the consumption in your area hey there's another example of charge costs for a Tesla a as well as Model S and a model X and you'll see a 20 volt level one plug point will take an excruciating per per Tesla per a this is actually from an article that that uh spoke about the Tesla charging 13 5 hours to recover a full battery capacity from an empty state of the charge and if you have a 2 uh 40 volt point this decreases it to 18 hours and so there are different speeds based on those level of chargers and this is just giving you an idea of those things um how many miles they'll go as far as their range and on how many hours of charge so now it's the next slide city clerk thank you the Cyber trucks also I've given you information on those um once again we're using level 22 or level two Chargers so you're looking around 22 hours to charge that truck if you have one in the area in the next slide thank you actually one up uh yeah I think we missed no yeah so the length of the current warranty on our chargers um council did vote in to take an extended warranty so we ended up with a fiveyear warranty and um I would like to take a look at what is covered under that warranty the labor terms are there any parts that are not covered and look at the projected annual maintenance contract price for all the Chargers at the end of the warranty so that we know what to expect when the warranty ends so my um Rec my recommendation is that we take a look and Implement solid documentation policies for financial feasibility reporting to ensure our return on our investment and to sure that our strategy is correct for pricing on the charging our when we want to look at when our projected return data our return on investment date would be with all of the costs meaning from the original installation which will Define the amount and period that that income would be expected to be earned on the investment in order to break even to reach that break even point the projected amount needed for return on investment including loans interest and all cost including electricity consumed and that should be projected as well and do we have previous numbers used for pricing strategies cost Etc to ensure we're going to maximize our return on investments so do we need to adjust any prior calculations if those financials have been calculated and do we need to make changes based on the state of the industry and then taking a look at usage reporting I was very um pleased with the reports that I saw and received from um our resiliency manager Zach um showed me the report straight out of the system it gives great information so that's a good thing so we should take a look at utilizing those reports because that helps us gauge whether or not the utilization on the Chargers are at maximum maximum capacity we want to make sure that we're getting our return on investment on the equipment we have some and so I would recommend looking at it no less than quarterly um because things change rapidly and they have changed rapidly rapidly since we've installed the equipment so our current reports that we have available um the system has some basic reports and then Zach had told me that he can customize reports for us um based on what we may want to see so the use reporting should be provided in my opinion and hopefully Council will agree that we should take a look at use uh reporting and um look at how many charges did we have the number of charge hours the cost of charging to the city meaning the kilowatt hours and the associated cost the income we earn from the price of charging whether we have a net negative or a positive amount and look at maintenance and repair reporting so that we know if we are having any issues whatsoever with the Chargers and then any additional data that Zach could give us in order to keep us up to date and make um sound decisions on what's going on and this is just one of the sample reports it's this is um a a bar graph is showing in Revenue with locations so you have graphic types of reports available and that's really what I was wanting to char to show you on this however if you take a look at the next report you'll see this is a financial report with the usage and one thing I noticed it shows you the session date and the location and the fees as well as the the charging amount parking because if they leave it on the charger past it being fully charged I believe the city has a fee for that as well and then the thing that I have highlighted is we have no tax available and I'm going to ask you uh city manager please to explain about the gas tax going down we we currently do receive um a local option gas tax we have for many years all all cities do um and of course as um gas consumption goes down Statewide that that tax comes down as well and so we've seen a negative we've seen it go down yeah it's been fluctuating downward okay and that could be from charging so we may want to look at um anyone that puts gas in their car ends up paying state taxes and uh local taxes so we may want to look at bumping that up if we find that financially uh we're low on what we're expecting for our return on investment I have a question wouldn't the amount that we're charged based upon the kilowatt hours that we're receiving include a tax from FPL the so FPL pays a franchise fee to the city that that's correct um is it based on consumption and I'm not sure exactly the sales tax is in there as well which as the local but yeah the city bed of the franchise fees it's not um it's based on the total dollar amount cost of the energy not um per kilowatt hour right from what I understand okay all right so this one shows some of the total uh for a 10day period in December I just pulled out and you'll see that some of these totals are really low so um we have to take a look at how we're going to anticipate ever hitting our return on revest return on investment with the charges being so low cost but we also have to stay somewhat aligned with whatever markets we have here in Florida and that sort of thing so that's one thing we'd want to take a look at in reporting and this next one you'll see the longest charge that we had uh with the kilowatt hours being 44.6 to kilowatt hours I used a an estimate of 14 cents because I'd remembered that figure whether that's actually what we're charging here with the city so you see we're looking at a $625 um amount to charge this and we would have to look at our total number of charges and look at our numbers to closely align whether we're going to reach our return on our investment even on just the upgrade alone so that's something we might want to take a look at in reporting now this shows us revenue generated from December 5th 2023 to February 11th 2024 and all of our charges from that period um totaled up to $1,055 and you'll see the orange highlighted our weekend charges so when Zach sent me the report that was the entire period that it covered um and that's a low amount you know when you just spent $108,000 for the upgrade we need to seriously think of how we're going to keep an eye on this going forward and what we might want to do to make modifications in order to try to recoup some of our investment on this the next page will show you the the other months this was one long page so I put it on two pages here so you'll see like on the 11th of January we had six charges and we earned $33 the next chart you'll see this is another one of the barographs one of the graphics that's available so they're the system's uh really robust on being able to provide us with information if we can determine what we'd like to look at or take recommendations from the the staff so that we know um that we can take a look at number of charges is the usage that we have how long they're charging and what we're recouping and then with maintenance reports I think that it would be great for Council to be able to be aware of the reports for maintenance and as well as our city manager and look at but not limited to looking at did we have any service tickets on the Chargers and um our city manager might already have this information but were there any service tickets the types of failures and frequencies um their quality of service figures that usually Tech vendors can give you what do we have any complete outages on any of the stations do we have any open repair tickets pending what is the resolution of the closed repair tickets and what costs were involved sometimes there are things that are not coverable under warranty and labor so those are things that we might want to look at one thing that I did speak with Zach about and um our system is AI intelligent and and it is somewhat self-healing it has a bot that diagnoses its any issues within it so a lot of times it can close out and repair itself self so this is where we get a little interesting and that's because there are huge changes going on in the market right now and it just takes a little bit of time sitting down doing a search on these um it's really right now it's it's really somewhat uh volatile and is changed a lot since this vote in September to upgrade the stations so I think it would behoove us as a council to keep an eye on our costs for this and our return on our investment so with the market right now um we have some decline indicators that manufacturers and Technology look at they always look at um are there competitors that are um laying people off that also indicates hey their competitor's product is declining product production decreases indic indicates market decline and then market demand and fueling costs can also indicate Decline and of course falling stock projections or intoe income projections can also indicate decline so now here's where we get to have fun Clark because it goes back up to the the top I'm so sorry so I put together a document for you that is the state of the industry document to um take a look at some of these things and and I've I specifically am highlighting decline because we know how popular um and E's the the news Market has been for EES over the last five or six years there been a real push for them so what I'm looking at what I was looking at is Decline and the reason that I did that is when you're in technology and you're looking at it are you going to make your return on investment that's what you focus on you don't focus on woohoo we're well focusing on woohoo we're doing great is always wonderful but you have to keep an eye open for uh decline indicators so you'll see in this document we have some indic um examples of market decline um and so I'm really concerned about a drop in charging some of the EV manufacturers have reported losses and excess of billions While most are looking at rolling out hybrid model models that will potentially lessen the possibility that people will charge by 50% because you can use gas with the Hybrid models so I think we have to keep an eye on on this um so right now we currently have people here it's our peak season and so our chargers should be fairly busy if there's a huge demand for this and what we say in technology one of my friends says this is we want to be on the Leading Edge but not the bleeding edge and being able to watch this and the reason that I am bringing this up is because I think it's important to know whether we're going to have a net negative impact at the end of the year and monitoring and Reporting is one of the best ways to keep an eye on that so you'll see some examples um the prices have been falling sharply I sat down just today and couldn't keep up with the number of articles I sent myself a just headlines um so you'll see multiple articles that I've provided for you all in one document Ford uh cutting shutting down their um Ford light product line they're looking to go after a new product line with cheaper EVS um after their earnings estimate was not great they do have people on staff but they do not have them fully developed um the article goes through a lot of information for that they're looking at how to generate a profit their battery P powered models lost 4.7 billion last year and their uh projects they are projecting the losses will grow to as much as 5.5 billion this year so all of these things are out there now in the media and it wasn't there in September um when this decision was made and and so I think it behooves us to keep an eye on it um so that's Ford and their earnings a lot of the manufacturers now are going back to their as they call them which I thought was interesting thing ice engines so in ter internal combustion engines meaning the gas gas cars and so a lot of them are looking at that um they Ford did have their production of their F-150 Lightning and in their end up boosting their production on the Bronco so there are things happening there with Ford so another article as well on Ford if you go down to number two City Clark thank you so much um it's reassessing its EV plans including vertical battery integration um so the Detroit automaker previously confirmed plans to delay or cut 12 billion in spending on all electric vehicles um they reiterated the company still believes the EVS will grow but noted we have widespread adoption for Mass Market consumers not happening until the costs are more in line with traditional Vehicles also o saw that today with Tesla who also created a drop in price on their vehicles just this week so we do have market decline indicators happening around us I'll I'm not going to read every one of these every word of this um GM GM is Switching gears on its EV strategy they're taking a look at moving to hybrids so as um as per a report by cm BC General Motors uh CEO Mary Bara revealed a new strategy that the big three automaker is going to use to pursue changing the automotive landscape going um which is going to be a return to plugin hybrids so once again a hybrid what we have a 50% chance that they'll charge every time whether where of EV they charge they have to charge every time so that's another possibility okay the next one um is a market in information on why users are leaving and a lot of users are leaving because of range and the anxiety with range because right now there's not enough charging stations when you go on a long uh road trip and a lot of people are accustomed to being able to get in the car and go and there's also POS uh problems with once you get in a car and go on a long road trip there's recharging issues so for example finding the station is the first issue and sitting there long enough to get a charge to where you can go 200 more miles is the next thing and as far as adoption the people are not jumping on that bandwagon as quickly if they take long long trips so this has some information in that that one for why people were looking at going back to gas power cars okay and then um so a lot of the EVS the prices have been declining since late in 2023 started in December really and uh some of them as early as October it's good new for buyers but it's bad signs for the industry and so on the surface that seems beneficial but it experts always warn when you're in a manufacturing um industry when you see steep declines that typically means that your product doesn't have the stickiness that it needs with the consumers just a back up council member Jackson you are on is the the the article state of the market or the whole document is called state of the market yes which one I we just transitioned from the this one okay so where the questions begin is the one on the screen the correct one nope if you would go um up a little bit okay wait a minute to actually go down thank you mayor down from there purp thank you keep going keep going and on down and down right there okay I'm hitting this fairly quickly because I'm helpful because you'll say things and I know you printed and so I just want to make sure I'm marking and following along so thank you back to you thank you so um I was I just spoke to the good news for the buyers and bad signs for the industry so we have to keep an eye on that in order to to make sure that we're aligning our charging the way that we need to um they increased competition as far as EVS Mexico is now looking at housing uh production facil for Chinese made EVs and Tesla has said this is going to kill the market in our area so all of these things are happening at once there's a huge moving Target on this and things are changing rapidly um so we've got shifting incentives some of the um governmental incentives for each EV some of that is shifted so certain people are not getting that incentive anymore so that is also something that will slow sales down and um once again users and consumers the drivers are concerned about battery life concerns because the battery life once a battery goes out it's very expensive to replace the range reduction the fact that they can't you know Drive far and um and also the range reduction is deals with the battery and the battery life um Herz announced plans to sell over 20,000 of its Teslas from its rental Fleet I spoke to one of our local rental people um she's down in Melbourne which is a fairly good size city and it's Avis and they absolutely can't get anyone to take those cars for rental they're having a real problem with brening EVS so we still see continued growth despite all these challenges that are going on um because there are short-term hurdles but there were I mean really when you look at the number of gas powered vehicles versus the number of EVS in the United States it's a low number compared so the market does have the ability to grow Toyota GM and Ford have all said they're going to look at hybrids versus full e uh Vehicles so once again plug-in hybrids they're looking at um California is looking at a timeline to require all new vehicles be plugin hybrids by 2035 and so there's a lot of things going on but most most of the manufacturers and automakers are taking a look at moving to hybrid so that you've got gas as well as uh battery power so it talks a little bit more about um I put some things in here like the electric uh car myth and there's an article that tells you about um some of the things that are problems service and purchase prices and insurance can be higher on the vehicle based on the model um once again there are people that are being disqualified for incentives now so the incentives aren't there and once the incentives are not there a lot of people halt or slow their buying um there's elevated repair cars compared to um internal combustion engines and so there's also something I found quite interesting a shortage of Mechanics for the EVS so there's multiple things happening in the market right now the next page if you'll go down yeah there you are you're right there's the increased insurance rates there's multiple articles on that um because of the intricacy of repairing the vehicles as well as the cost as the batteries so that's something that is out there as well um home charging installation is expensive which plays in our favor as far as people using our our chargers here in the city um but most people are going to look at you know 2500 to $3500 to get the wiring and that type of thing cost of electricity slows them down because that actually increases their bill on their home and then the ongoing maintenance um costs are a bit higher for the EVS there's higher sales tax in some areas um elevat registration fees a lot of the features are underutilized and depreciation rates are much higher on the EV so they lose their value and become a disposable car people are not going out and buying a used DV it's hard to do that because if your battery is not up to speed it will end up costing that person that consumer a lot of money more than buying a new car when they look at replacing the car so the market isn't there for the use use car on EVS so um the depreciation rates are high on them and once again the charging network is not there yet and then there are the based on which manufacturer there's some differences in the warranty costs that can be a net negative for the consumer okay so if you will go on down city cler thank we're going back to one that says do we have a marketing strategy so I think it would behoove the city for us to look at do we have a marketing strategy on this we need to Market those Chargers that are in there and help people know they're available and um make it easy for them to use the Chargers I think other than manate Park where the park closes at night um it we have them that we can point people to to charge 24 hours a day so um before the swipers were put in we had commercial businesses and one that I ran into charging uh myself before I was on Council was Avis here in the city and Avis um they were charging all their vehicles so have we approached Davis have we talked to them would you you know are you using our service still how can we Market this is what I'm basically getting at so have we reached out and looked at that um are there any businesses we can reach out to in order for them to use the Chargers generate income um and do we have any kind of awareness campaign for our resident snowbirds and any small businesses that might be open to using the Chargers and city manager do you know if we have any marketing we just have our traditional Outreach platforms and and we did put it out there through a weekly update there social media posts and when they were installed is it still going on I'm I'm not I can't answer that for sure okay I I can share something something I do know I believe could be wrong but I think that the way these are also marketed is when the city installed or has had them installed they go in on other websites so there's folks that will search a main centralized website and it'll show you EV stations you could just Google EV charging station locations and it would not surprise me if Cape Canaveral is on some of the main ones I think Zach said plug share is one plug share yeah you can find them so that's where a lot of the people are searching and see that's that concerns me although that's wonderful but with our numbers that were returned for these first 60 days then that's concerning because we're not getting the charges if we're out there so I think it would be good to look because of the way the internet is we know how that can be maybe we think we're out there on some and we aren't or would they've dropped us or something like that I think the more that we could get out there the better for us because this is our busy season and you know what we won't have people charge as many people charging after about mid April so I would think that our numbers would be higher now and they're not there yet I mean that's just my thought I think if we increase the hours of operation for them because right now the parks are closed that's what I after certain time so if it was basically 247 and if there's the sheriff's department has a a concern over people staying in the park if it's not plugged up to a charger they shouldn't be there if if we wanted to regulate it that way but you know that improves the the possibility of Revenue um but you know you you present a argument for not having the Chargers but you want to spend money on marketing them also I'm just I I know I know I know I'm just U we have to be careful of that um but you know as far as the uh profitability of the car makers it took Amazon nine years before they ever turned to profit and I may be the only one on the day that is old enough to remember the early days of personal Computing but it took a long time before the average Joe could ever afford one I mean they were outrageous a laser printer was s or 8,000 you couldn't have one technology will catch up to this but you know having said that that I am not a uh advocate of government incentives for people to buy electric vehicles that's not the well and I want to make sure that my entire premise for this is making sure that we're not coming out of this at the end of the year with a huge amount of money towards our TA you know that is taxpayer dollars if you have a product that you're offering to the public it should be covering itself and I agree with you you know what those manufacturers when they start a new technology it takes a lot of time but they don't Lo we we're seeing billion dollar losses in the EV industry and that's not a small loss any manufacturer with billion dollar losses is paying attention to that bottom line you can't continue that for two years you'll lose everything and be shutting the doors and so and where I understand what you're saying uh councilman Willis the thing that I'm trying to do I me personally it doesn't really matter what my opinion is personally some people I like choice is what I like some people may like gas power vehicles some may like electrical Vehicles the thing we have to look at though and the reason I'm discussing marketing is because if we aren't making a sound decision to where we are getting this covered in some way shape or form we're going to end up paying a lot and we've already paid a lot because if you add all of the cost up over six years or however long these have been installed um I mean we just spent 108 to upgrade them so we've got to look at how is this going to impact us at the end of the year and especially if we got market decline that we didn't have last year last year the decline wasn't there it's happening now so we have to look at it can I I was going to say I have a question first of all I I wonder why was staff not why were they advised that they didn't need to be here because with these kind of questions coming up the ones that have the answers are our staff so I would I've rather had them here but I have a question for Todd maybe you can answer this um there are several projects or services that the city has that we were not expecting to make money the rec center for for certain you know Nancy Hansen whatever so what was the expectation of the moneymaking because it seems like you're wanting to run it as a business and technically all the services for the city are not a business so I would like to know what the expectation or you may not know when we first started this I mean we want to make money obviously but we weren't expecting on some of the services we provide to the city to get rich so is this one of the services that we were going to provide not expecting um do you know what I mean a lot of income we would expect some income and of course we want to make as much as we can but do you know what the expectation was well this is an experiment it always was an experiment in fact giving it away for free was part of the experiment that we learned from as well so this is like the next generation of our experiment we we learned we don't want to give it away for free we wanted to start charging we put the swipers in so we could recoup some of that investment but to your question do we expect to make a profit what we expected was a break even period to to occur that's right but you know we're learning as we go this is 60 days worth of data but I think you I think more to the point of your question um not everything we do is profit oriented it's it's service oriented um for example the Parks and Recreations department one of my first goals as my in as city manager was to get a handle on what we are putting out for our Parks and Recreation facilities versus what we're taking taking in so we went through a very detailed effort in the last couple years to analyze those rates look at the um the cost of operating those facilities and then come back at the end of a year with these rates in place and see what is that percentage that we are covering um and are we happy with that so we're getting more of a metric-based way of looking at the return on Parks and Recreation things and we'll use that information sure when we're setting rates for following for future years but we're not profiting from it at all and and to my knowledge no City ever profits from that it's about providing that service when it comes to that because it's it's for everybody and and the parks uh people the users of those facilities whether they use them or not so not everything is meant to be at a profit to your point that we do okay I I will certainly open it up to the the public I just want to make sure take a couple steps back Council member Jackson you were going through the order did you get to the end of yours or was your idea to stop here I just want to make sure you got through uh everything and then we can no we we uh we stopped but that's fine well you I mean if you think it's important and we can come back there's a few that that I'd like to come back to and uh but do you want to finish yes let let me go ahead and finish and we can bring it back to dice for discussion okay so and with this marketing strategy we're just trying to make sure we're getting close to being able to break even like you're talking about um and one comment was made so I'm going to go ahead and address that not everyone uses this service so how many people do we have we really don't know that's one thing um so that's why I was saying we need to make sure that people are where they're there especially during snowb Bird Season when they'll be utilized the most we also have um areas excuse me I apologize for interrupting I just got a text message that my family member is in the ER so I'm going to leave and excuse me if we can do anything if a recess would help you appreciate it I don't know exactly what the situation is but I'm going believe so excuse me understood thoughts and prayers are with you thank you council member Jackson any floor is yours okay so as we look at this you know I understand we're we're not an Enterprise business but we're offering an Enterprise service with chargers and we also have the port going in with chargers and some other chargers throughout the city so when as we look at this and also look at our budget that we just received our audit it says inflation is happening and it is so we need to in my opinion it helps us to look at the money that we're spending and what we might expect of it that's why I'm doing this so anyway we'll move on so the next one city clerk um one thing I was curious about because one thing I found out as I was looking and I like our Barrier Island and I love Florida's Nature and that is do we know if any of our batteries end up in the landfill and the reason I'm asking this is because of the fact that the batteries have to be shipped to a recycling plant and currently there are three of them in the North Northern portion of the US the if I replace my battery at a dealer my understanding is they charge me for the battery they take the old battery are they tossing them are they shipping them what is the cost and that kind of thing these are things that I care about because of the environment um not really related to our cost with the Chargers but I wanted to mention that so city clerk if you would scroll up the other thing is we have current cities such as Olympia Washington that are enacting legislation that addresses EV fires and during testimony before the Senate Transportation committee the Fire Department officials said a typical fire truck carries 500 gallons of water but it can take 12 times that amount to put out the typical EV battery fire so Washington State Senate Bill 5812 is addressing EV fires and other states and cities are also addressing those in firefighting concerns I am I'm not aware because I'm a new council member do we have a firefighting plan in case there's a fire at the charger what are our uh liability concerns for the city if we did have a fire so um those are things that I'm curious about I'm sure that um Zach could answer and then being we're just looking I'm just looking at can we you know utilize information that's out there available to us that Zach has and and also um financials to ensure that we're we're keeping an eye on everything since there the market is indicating Decline and so being on the space with co uh the Space Coast with SpaceX and others that depend on the EVS we need to make informed decisions on how to move forward while ensuring that we've got the EV available to Citizens and travelers alike and if possible try to save our citizens their tax dollars so all in my opinion all options need to be investigated for Intelligent Decisions on how to move forward with the market changing and indicating some decline including what options are being utilized in different cities that were early adopters in the market so um looking at where are Chargers in our city besides just the ones we have so that we know which ones are out there because people could be charging off of them um hotels the port any projected sites which we would consider as competition we' want to make sure we we have the information out there for everyone and do we have any projections of the number of residents that are installing it in their home because we have a lot of people that are doing renov renovations as well as new properties uh builds where they're U taking down an older property or building on a vacant lot so just knowing where uh how utilization is occurring within our city would be helpful as well and so my proposal is just that we take a look at obtaining financials the reoccurring financials from the staff um that I stated earlier um see if we can get a calculation on total investment The Net Present Value the equivalent annual cost and monthly cost such as electricity and obtain our recurring reports from the staff on the usage via number of charges and financials on the charging stations and obtain the maintenance reports so that we can keep a close eye as the markets making these wild swings right now on the EVs and now I will pass it to you Mr Mayor thank you very much council member Jackson I want to uh thank you for the time that you put into this um sourced documented and I think this brings a lot of value to the council to read to understand and to communicate with the public uh while we can get narrowed in on EVS here today what I'm saying is is that this approach from time to time makes sense and if we remove EV out I love the fact that our Council if we can make it when we can make it um obviously ly times we can't very relevant today but uh it it's a different way of doing business in the city uh since I've been on at least and staff my opinion on staff resources are costly and but they they certainly are valuable uh when they're there and my hope and is that we can can do more of these and think y our city manager City Clerk and everyone sort of as a minimum is here um that this is a way to get in front of some of these items and your approach with npv determining our hurdle rates if we removed again EVS out of that and we replaced it with certain projects I think that that's uh really helpful and so I just wanted to to compliment that you know workshops haven't been something on these types of issues that we've been able to do in the past so today is sort of a an exciting day for me that ignoring what it is how we're doing it today um is I believe the best way for us to do business uh in in the city and it's certainly you know we only have so much time and so being selective and trying to find things that that that really justify it Mak sense um I've got some specific comments I want to pause on that um I know that when I asked for public participation earlier I don't think our uh citizens were here at this time but if council's okay I'd like to go back to the public I know that Miss king would like to speak so please if you would like to speak I yes please thank thank you first of all I want to say thank you to councilman Jackson C for the work that you have put into this as you know I put a lot of work into it as well and I'm very impressed with your latitude and depth of knowledge that you have about this particular issue the analysis process should have been done before the vote was ever taken and the the fact that we have staff who did not do the job that councilwoman Jackson did I think should never happen again we should not attempt to undertake a project that is going to cost the city taxpayer money without doing a thorough analysis of it because if this thing bombs guess what some of you aren being reelected and some of your jobs might be in Jeopardy this should never happen the way Jackson has presented it is the it should be the policy of this city going forward for any kind of name name a dollar figure project that the city is considering undertaking I'm disappointed that there aren't more people here today people work I understand but I'm speaking for them that's Point number one because the taxpayer ends up with the burden if the thing fails okay we have an election year coming up this is a presidential election year and whatever your politics are I think we can all fairly assume that Trump is going to get elected if there is an election but that's a whole other subject one of his campaign promises is drill baby drill we're gonna we're going to get those refineries those pumping we're going to go back to as he said the liquid gold when that what happens the price of fuel is likely to go down further depressing the demand for EVS why would you want an EV when it's costing you 80 or something dollars to charge the price of gas might go back down to maybe who knows a187 the way it was when he was in office before I fully expect that to happen that's Point number two firefighting plan I am so glad you brought that up because I have read reports when those batteries when when those cars catch on fire not only is it a danger to people humans but it ruins the pavement I mean it just makes an awful mess not to mention the firefighting efforts that take place fortunately we have firefighters at the Port who are trained to handle ship fires and so they're probably a step above the average Municipal firefighting Department in terms of knowledge of how to deal with certain fires this this could be critical fire out on A1A you're not going to get any traffic around there am I limited to three minutes no how okay you want a I have more minute two minutes more three minutes yes please thank you I appreciate that yes okay uh con a congresswoman I've been watching too much National TV councilwoman Jackson mentioned that Zach has information that he can be using okay yes insist upon it city manager he should have been using it all along prior to and made a presentation like that to the city council before the the vote was taken okay um and councilwoman Jackson is it possible to get a copy of your presentation so I can study it thank you that's pretty much all I have to say my compliments to all of you for being as diplomatic as you are I find it difficult be that diplomatic thank you thank you I see the hudge family is here would either one of you like to speak it's a workshop so sort of it it's my preference that that we can have a conversation together so yes thank you for being here they sent back 500,000 Teslas to China I don't know the dets but that doesn't sound good um the fires they're not allowing them in some Hotel areas now they have to be out and are we liable as a city if we have them on public property so I I don't know the answer but you do have a liability problem if you have them in an area that would catch fire Parks May alternative if you do do so that you don't have the building and the public exposed and I don't I don't have a lot of details because I haven't been studying it but I trust everything she said Thank you thank you Mr hudge good okay thank you back to the council and if anything comes up again this is a workshop we can just try to do it uh in little tranches so thank you for your patience and I wanted to clarify one thing if I may yes um the reports became available with the upgrade in December just so everyone knows I want that's something that came with the upgrade the other chargers had no ability to before the upgrade we had no ability to see certain data just wanted you all to be aware of that thank you mayor PM I saw you raised your hand yes mayor thank you I just um a few things uh when this vote came up in September um I was the only one that voted against it and I brought up these these uh points that uh council member uh Jackson has brought up about the fires and about the market decline um and also our City's liability it passed anyway um it is here now but I agree that we should definitely keep an eye on um you know what's happening with the the market and also you know I don't think you can compare EV charging stations with the rec center um I don't think every taxpayer has a electric car and we are spending taxpayers money on a charging system that doesn't B benefit all taxpayers um the rec center benefits all taxpayers and it's their choice to join or go or whatever but if you don't have an EV charge or an EV car you know why is your tax money being spent on something that doesn't benefit you um and I think if you're you know the city is a business and um there are amenities that that benefit the citizens but something like this should be making money um and not losing money and um I just think that all of these things I wish I had had this report when back in September okay things could have maybe turned out different but um I appreciate all your work you did and you know I brought back then because I just put it together yeah I um I agree you know know it is what it is it's here now but what's the best way to deal with it and make sure we are not wasting taxpayers money thank you thank you council member Willis I know you jumped in earlier on a question uh do you have anything right now this moment I'd like to actually propose a quick break been at it for about an hour that's fine and then come back I got a few comments and um city manager wanted talk with you as well um so let's do that it's 4:40 now try to come back 51 minutes we're all here at 4:45 great if not 450 I think it be the latest so yep there it is 440 we'll come back here in 5 10 minutes thank you for re I don't see it on oh go oh you have the power where is sorry okay well it is 4:54 p.m. we call this meeting back to order a workshop meeting here um discussing EVs and like I said if the we want to go back to the public maybe after we get through some conversation it's helpful if you raise your hands and maybe towards the end or in between we'll do that and thank you again for being here so bringing it back Council member Willis uh I think you had some comments you wanted to make if so floor is yours sir yeah i' I'd hope that we can change the hours of operation for that for the EV stations I I don't think that anything or any place that we have them would be a problem making them 247 um I agree we need some reports to make sure that we're current on what we charging to see that we maximize that but we have them let's make the best of them now and uh do it uh get the reports on a a scheduled basis that doesn't uh appear as though we're trying to micromanage or anything but uh um I think they would be very helpful to have timely reports on what it's costing us what the revenues are and if there's any difficulties with the system thank you so I think this proposal to council the three bullets here obtain reoccurring financials from staff as stated earlier in the presentation the reason why is to know the total investment Net Present Value equivalent annual cost and monthly costs such as electricity city manager the report that I think the goal was quarterly yes sir will those reports you see any issue with being able to provide those headers I guess that's mentioned in the first bullet um well the first bullet is referring to financials um such as the um Net Present Value equivalent annual equivalent annual costs um I'm not sure those are ready to be spit out by that that that application I don't think they I don't think that they are but um that doesn't mean we can't derive them some other way okay Mr Mayor yes my thoughts on that um is obtaining them quarterly with a monthly breakdown um and more than likely our financial people would have to put the the cost together yeah it would be that Zach working with John's Department together right and I think Zach has a lot of the information so it wouldn't take up a huge amount of staff time I don't think um Mr de or Deo would have to let us know yeah we what we can do is just U make a wish list out of the the workshop meeting today and then I can report back to the council um our abilities to provide all that information capabilities thank you yeah I think uh Council as far as consensus and helping uh city manager understand that first bullet point council member Willis I think when you said having reoccurring this is one of them um any of you speak up is that sound like a good thing to obtain consensus on um quarterly which it may would it be April uh we are at 60 days now so approximately 30 more days from now would be the first quarter okay is that first bullet point okay with this Council those items I don't think uh the finance department uses net present value for anything at this point so they would need to let us know about that yeah yeah that those my points are that um I can report back to the Council on our ability to provide this information I don't know it if we are my first thing was if we do want to pursue this sounds like we we'll find out uh with net presentent value we would want to provide I think Direction on uh what period of time so do we want the Net Present Value over one year one month five years 10 years and so I would just say sometimes showing a few of those the one 510 same formula you just sub substitute it out would be my hope and request because when you just look at one short period of time MPV could be negative but you know you you get to fiveyear and it and it goes positive and so that's just data does it mean yes or no um and city manager I think you talked about payback period um that one's not in here I think that is one that we were tracking already and looking at uh and if we took the six stations and spread the total investment out which we you know our budget book last year shows those costs and then the ongoing fees I think it was aund 29,000 over the next five years total which the majority of it was upfront to purchase the equipment and I think it was 2500 or I have it in the budget book over here but that's obviously what we do know today forecasted um and then the you know comparing the actuals to that and now with the reporting and revenue I think we'll be able to see all a payback period Net Present Value and I think that approach on you know that template if you will uh would be very helpful because that's really what it comes down to is when you you know if we're looking at net pres value as a metric that we value and we think is very important information your question becomes okay you got a positive in npv but that doesn't always mean we should do that thing that uh because you might have a higher npv for the you know same funds opportunity cost and so we wouldn't be able to compare Net Present Value to anything um and so that would be sort of the last thing I would just no action needed other than once we get this and if we determine we can it would be good to maybe pick one or two other types of Investments within the city so that we can compare even better as as we're approaching this year's budget to make those decisions forward looking to say Well here here's where it is so if that's good I think city manager I want to jump back to you think that makes sense we'll we'll find out what you come back with yeah this yeah this is a learning curve for me and my staff's capabilities so what I'm I'm trying to help maybe form a motion for the council's consensus would be um wouldn't be a motion just be consensus right so I think start with consensus to direct city manager to provide a report to City Council on the capability staff capability of providing quarterly Financial reports to include total investment Net Present Value over period we'll come up with a recommendation equivalent annual cost monthly costs including maintenance projected payback period usage and any problems and then in the things that you're already doing I mean it's not necessarily remove and replace so um like I said we see the five year and yes what you said is is what I what I hear Too do does any do we have consensus on that if anyone opposes please speak and it is the a report on our capability to provide this and then there'll be more there'll be further direction from that yeah I would think if you can uh h having the data um you know we meet slow it's once a month so if we come back with the capability at the next meeting and then it's another month to me the quarterly reports were coming it'd be about confirming the capability to add it to that report that was already okay the financial piece yes to it yeah okay yes that sounds good um the second one uh obtain reoccurring reports from staff on usage via numbers of charge stations and financials on those charging sessions um so while the first bullet talks about total cost and sort of the bigger picture from an investment perspective this is going to show kind of how if if revenue is coming into the city this will show us how and and and what type of usage is driving that Revenue it'll show us Trends usage Trends so that report I think the city is already the the software provides that usage Trends yes but it also says and financials on those charging stations so dollars does have the financials in there for what we're charging okay okay what our our cost to the con to the consumer is so it doesn't mean provide total investment Net Present Value equivalent any cost on a per station basis no it I mean literally just the usage you know and the number of charges just like we saw in the example of the report yeah that um once we know if in what what I would Envision is that if the cost per kilowatt hour to the city changes that something that y'all would notify us as far as staff and then that way we would know when we're looking at the total number of charges and hours kilowatt hours would know that we had a positive or negative impact does to me city manager yes I know you're taking a note and while he's doing that this is the report that we can produce today and I think what you're talking about is this shows usage sessions per day and I think it it was able to extract the dollars out of that but just to talk in real time to get I think bullet number two uh today since 125 December 5th 20123 the there has been a total of 319 total plugins which has resulted in $1,082 in total revenue as of 214 yesterday so that's really since it started in 125 that wasn't a full month five day short January was really the First full month and yes I think the trend and that's when you plot that over time that's the trend that you can see that's what I'm showing is that's a report that our city uh the software can can do today and I think again this is just data that will be helpful and along with those um that with these that talk about the individual charges and which station they're on we can tell which ones are being utiliz ized because if there's a station being utilized it may or not being utilized it may just be in the wrong spot where people aren't going to that spot to charge if the other ones are carrying good numbers so with a combination of that report as well as these uh the ones that I included in the presentation you can really gain a lot of information and make changes if we needed to so I I don't have an issue with that one um city manager if you sounds like we can do that too and if you're ready I can take consensus yeah and please and I do think I have a full understanding of where we're going but it's possible council member Jackson that we may need to consult with you a little bit more to make sure that the report's going to be meaningful in the way that you want absolutely I'm happy to help that's great and Zach has this down pad so he and I with you together we can get what we need so that we can keep a solid handle on it hey Council if anyone opposes what I'm calling bullet number two uh please speak up otherwise we'll assume we have consensus issues good I see head's nodding yes yes yes you're no no opposed um the third and final bullet uh on this particular side is to obtain reoccurring maintenance reports from the staff to no current outages and repairs including any cost and so uh that that's uh really important because you know if the data dips uh because a charging station isn't available that's very different than that and so yeah I'm I'm pretty sure the outages would be in the the normal report already anyways um but any repair costs wouldn't normally be in there so that would be manually added in yeah okay any issues with that one Council all of that's included on the dashboard as it is so except for repair costs yeah yeah but you have to wage warranty versus right right okay well with that I know that there was some uh I wanted to make sure we got through what was most important that these are the few proposals council member Willis brought up a kind of a fourth one I'll add and we can keep adding about the accessibility of the stations um I think that opening up the parks 247 is different than City Hall due to our current Cod policy overnight parking is not allowed in the Parks but uh City Hall I think people could technically come here and and park so it would be that that would be the least amount of friction or resistance to to do at one site um if we wanted to do that and then I think we have to go into potentially couple public hearings to change the code unless so maybe having our City attorney look into H the path to make that happen well just just to make the EV charging available I mean the C5 I mean it's right there on a parking lot so which is accessible from the street it's not like you're going into to the park there you're just accessing the uh uh EV charging stations in a in the periphery parking lot it just seems like a simple fix I know we have to go through whatever the codes are for the parks but uh I think we would excuse me mayor I think we would have to create an exception in our code for vehicles actively charging as opposed to just parking there and not charging mayor perm yeah I just I think that um know at the C5 when it's right on the road and here at at City Hall is different than the parks I think opening the parks 247 is just asking for trouble and adding a burden on the sheriff's department to patrol the area to see who's plugged in who isn't plugged in what's going on I would not be in favor of opening the parks 247 for uh EV charging um and then my other concern is you know as we as the market bears and people add these EV charging to their homes or hotels add them and um trailer parks and uh the other places that um we talked about that's going to make it less and less um people are going to use our demand you know for our stations um so I just think that uh you know we I think that we should with these reports definitely keep an eye on where we're going with this but I I would not I just think opening the parks 24 hours a day is I mean we have enough vandalism now with them being closed and just you know making the sheriff's department do extra runs around the parts and see who's in there and what's happening I just think it's a lot and it doesn't benefit all of the people in the city um and is it going to be extra money for the sh's Department to keep an eye on the places my opinion anyway okay so a good City Hall and C5 were sort of carving out as different well well you can also include Banana River Park because the parking lot is right there in the open I mean the only one that is gated is Manatee Park everything else is just an open parking lot but don't we have parking regulations that don't let people Park you know that's the issue is that overnight it's not about using the parks 247 it's about using the parking lot overnight which is prohibited using the charging stations in the park paring Lots would be the only thing I would advocate for y so we don't we would need to potentially change the code yeah to do that City Hall we can do that by tomorrow just open it up to 24 hours on city hall because it's not considered a park it' be a good test if we wanted to see it as well but um I just want to make sure that was captured perhaps at the next report we could have some more information about the path to really just increasing the hours of operation for them whether it's by hours or opening it up um um a recommendation on the pro or at least evaluate the pros and cons of each Park and what would need to be done with the code for2 4 Hour charging at those Parks we might decide I think that there are certain parks that it's fine to allow 247 at I think like C5 might be a good example even though it's technically parked property because it's so easily accessible to those parking spaces just make might make sense to create an exception and apply it to C5 but that same exception might not make sense to apply at mity part because it's gated off so if if we put the tool in the code that the city council can authorized an exception for Ev parking on a park case-by casee basis that could be the solution I think it's worth worth looking at okay we'll provideed analysis of that and and not by uh kimley horn okay council member Jackson were there any other recommendations or proposals in here throughout this presentation that you wanted to Circle back to that we would add to this getting the total cost spent so far we so we have our total investment at this point that's the that's in the first um let's see here oh warranty potential warranty expiration date what projected costs would be for purchasing a maintenance policy the potential maintenance policy costs at the end of the warranty period okay I think that that warranty is obviously directly related to cost so I is it three years four maybe I it's five years so you know if something goes wrong what does the existing warranty cover today within that fiveyear period and then what happens after that period um and you know product warranty workmanship if there's anything associated with it typically with the cost yeah typically with an upgrade they give you a warranty period we purchased I know when I looked at the um contract we purchased the extended warranty that extended it to five years but that's entirely different than a maintenance contract so the maintenance contract price would be different than a warranty price and that's why I was specifically saying what you know what are their uh maintenance contract prices like now because we can pretty much guess there will be some inflation to that but it'll give us a little bit of a idea of what we look at at the end of the fiveyear period understood so omm maintenance right that today we have uh and then monitoring is sort of that we are paying for that that ongoing and that has been put in the budget which is uh it's partially paid for a flat fee to them and maybe an on an annual like I said I think it's 20 2,000 in between two to $3,000 um according to our budget it looks to be around $3,000 which is not a bad thing for that extended warranty hopefully it'll stay low like at at the end of the warranty period um but it may go up a little and so just having that on you know on our minds as far as when that ends is not a bad thing as well according to the invoice the fiveyear warranty was $3,000 for all five years yeah three okay so we we did a onetime $3,000 purchase that would give us five years of uh maintenance mhm or well whatever the warranty covers and we paid that up front it it appears so yes so that was a part of the yeah the total cost and then there's monitoring ongoing or annual uh where am I getting the 2400 I think it's budget book page 105 see I was ready uh never can find a page yeah $2,400 and and this budget's important because it's sort of where I think a lot of this has come from in the public comments and the justification is in here and it's important to say that we in our Charter in our Capital Improvement plan our code tells us the things that we're supposed to factor and justification is one one of them and that's why this justification tab is on every Capital Improvement project then it the code also tells us ongoing maintenance costs but it talks about only for facilities so there's some interpretation on a facility if we invest in um an EV charging station I think if we view them as facilities uh it's sort of guides us on on how to do that and and I think this would be a more this is a big picture we can dig in look at the actuals because if this cost is continuing we w't ask ourselves if we're still doing it um so yes the total purchase installation was $120,000 it unless this changed or was amended What's the total contract price you're seeing council member Willis and if you provided this yeah 110,000 642 642 94 okay and then the ongoing is uh 2400 and so that 3,000 that you mentioned for the fiveyear is a part of that 120 yes part of the 110 110 so we budgeted 120 and this will come out but in those cash flows I think one of the big things that we talked about was the tax credit that was available to the private sector but if you were tax exempt like a nonprofit a church YMCAs schools that tax credits were not available because they didn't pay taxes made sense the changes in the federal uh legislation allowed essentially even though there was no tax liability for a city mentions tribes um nonprofit schools churches they now treat it essentially as a grant it's called direct payment and so this year one thing that'll really help me is understanding this $110,000 was expensed in the year 2023 is all of it right so the the IRS code tells us that you take 30% of those I'm not an accountant but our staff can look at it whatever that number is if it truly is 30% I think it is that is essentially a revenue event whether we agree with it or not from the federal government that will happen there's some debate on how long it will take but within a year would be sort of the longest so while this 120,000 went out as an expense for the city what I'm saying is is when we go to do our 2023 financials and maybe the Auditors could speak to this I don't know if that's appropriate but we will fill out a paperwork a document submitted to the treasury as a city from what I understand and they're going to basically send a direct payment check unprecedented uh and if it is 30% it would be $33,135 in your cash flow and excuse me our cash flow and and looking at the analysis it would show 120 out in year one it's got the ongoing 2400 year you know one two three ongoing in year two maybe three we will see Revenue come in that is not related to user fees but like I said more like a grant so that's going to take 33,000 off and there's some other what they call adders incentives in there that maybe the city qualifies for but that leaves the balance just under $100,000 and so that's going to spike inpv I think and that it's actually going to to do some things that it's not what I would call earned Revenue right it was not a because of great marketing it wasn't because because of opening access it's just a windfall of 30% on the project cost and that that would affect that would impact the total investment which would be ideally in the report yes after we pass that period in time yes sort of saying if it goes as they're saying it's going to go that's going to be money uh returned back um the the usage data yeah I think we we got through those three bullets we talked about getting some more pros and cons of the hours of operation my um just my general comments on this and I've got a chance to hear and I think you wanted to speak as well bring it back open is that this approach uh to to how we do spend uh taxpayer money is really important and I'm excited about um adding this to what we're already doing and I think there's a lot of information that you shared sourced and helpful and it would be in our best interest that we focus on what we do agree on because we can get wrapped around the axle on you know the items that maybe aren't good use of our time and that to me are just the general idea of Subs right this is more of a philosophy should the government be responsible for subsidies and I've looked at this one and I've been looking at it for for a while you know just the subsidies as I just said the tax credit called direct payment from the inflation reduction Act was it it's it's available in the industry that that I've worked in the energy sector um it's available in cars typically you know there's a 10% investment tax credit that's available in a variety of Industries but because this one goes up to 30% originally that was um propos during the bush W Administration for solar and green energy it was maintained and it had like a 10year sunset I think and it was maintained and then it fell off and actually the Trump Administration brought it back so it was at the full 30% and then when the Biden Administration came in they basically extend the runway for those tax credits subsidies for not only solar invest ments but a whole bunch of other Investments such as electric car charging stations and so that argument on should we be in the business well I think the spending the money in my opinion no uh I I don't think the government should be subsidizing however I'm I do believe In fairness and if we're going to pull that card then we have to ask and look at the data from fossil fuels ICE federal subsidies are staggeringly higher and have been and often not temporary with sunset but permanently put in for fossil fuel exploration and th that's good it has a posi postive impact on the environment I personally don't agree with it and I do not agree you shouldn't prop up one over the other we should be the referees you should let the market work let the market decide and that is what it is and so I'm saying if I also agree with the the view of choice public choice and competition I think that that's a a Cornerstone to what makes our country really special capitalism and that choice for decades in this city and in the America has really been oil ice gas cars and the advancements and the innovation of EV Vehicles whether is a second choice and how much the government's getting involved with them yes spending has increased in those over the short period of time but again from the data I see it pales in comparison to what is happening across the board also the Auto industry and market demand because we had one choice during the recession years there was a big bailout for all the automakers and some economists have argued that you know had the market the market made its decision there it's sort of a lot of government interference to get to this point point but as good as we can see a The Limited free market in that sort of said for whatever reason you know they started filing bankruptcy the federal government got involved directly you know what we call corporate welfare essentially propping them up so what would have happened had those big automakers went out of business and I know that some of those I think it was really in the form of a loan and some of them paid up back but the government stepped in and got involved never agreed with that neither with the banks The Fanny May all those types of bailouts are highly controversial so here little o Cape canaval we've purchased six charging stations we've spent $110,000 we've got some projected costs moving forward we see that federal subsidy that's there and you know I don't think that's an example of something that unless we're saying no out of principle we want to decline the federal incentives I'm willing to have that conversation but it really puts me in a bad spot because when I apply that logic to other things it it really it it doesn't make sense and so for this the pains and the wos of the EV owner whether it be they have longer charging times you know that's on on them and I think for us we heard some legitimate safety concerns the weight of the vehicles is one that we're expecting our roads to take greater wear and tear over the next decades compared that's from what I'm seeing valid and it's very evident and potion Tower pollution is worse than and and because of that entire pollution is a big issue today so that's going to increase those those things need to be factored um but this is a different way of thinking than gas stations that the places where your car already sits today for long periods of time suddenly becomes a place that makes sense to charge so it's not about having the place on the main thorough fair or Runway where you you can pop in for a 5 10 minute fill up and get on that's what they need because the majority of cars need convenient exits because that's how we fuel our vehicles today but this sort of says we're are we going to live in a society from time where you leave your house on a full tank because you are charging from home and if so where are you going and if you're going to how depending on how much you used you know it just changes that where your car goes it sort of charges uh there in that space and so we can't we own what we own as a city we own Prime real estate at every Beach entrance parking space and until we're going to say you know it why aren't we putting you know gas stations there I I think we can we can talk about about that and look at that I don't think that's going to more than likely get through the hurdles but to come in with EV uh charging station I take this decision seriously too and I have thought about um not only the principles of it but in the State of Florida the constitution of our state says that a local government has the right to become its own utility we've got a 100 200 maybe 300 Municipal owned Utilities in the State of Florida they live they don't sell EV charging they sell power to the entire home so the government is literally providing Electric Service Winter Park Barto new samna Jacksonville is the largest municiple j o OU Orlando Utilities Commission and the City of Cape canaval provides other Utility Services Wastewater storm water that is an Enterprise funds those funds are ran like a business and I think that the things that we're talking about today I think we got some things we're going to be voting on some equipment and some things for those funds that are going to make us better we should apply this EV electric charging model is one that it's too early to go in my opinion you know big just from the technology standpoint because I think we're we're we're there I think it's working I think the demand is going to go really high where I think you can get in trouble is if you go on these level threes and try to compete with the times of gas you get those fast charge times well well that's going to put a ton of kilowatt Demand on the grid those high demand Chargers and substations are going to have to be built and it's going to put a lot of load and that is a legitimate issue is that if every vehicle today they could not charge themselves on level three charging stations so level two kind of sits there as the Slow and Low and level ones that it's it is humorous how long it take you know 158 hours or so and while level one's really slow the the level twoos to me which is what the city invested in is the best for keeping the demand low on the grid Slow and Low electricity is great that's what we want we don't want these big high peaks of Demand on the grid and I think electrification is great and I'll wrap it up here I I think we need to have opportunity and access I do not know how to treat you know gas powered fairly in this circumstance uh again I think the real opportunity and the motive for me why I thought this was a good idea goes back to Asar city manager said council member Willis brought up and we all unanimously supported the way that we were handling EVS we did not like and agree with we did not that I think that struck conviction on all of us we did and we we moved as quickly as we could staff moved in short notice and we ended that there's no debate on that and yes there were citizens who were concerned about it and I think they made decisions based on that but we over the course of a few months said well what is a fair way to do it and that's why in my head we did it and it was financial and it was what I'd call Financial sustainability is it's not just about environmental sustainability just a city can have practices that if you're not taking these steps it's not financially sustain it's not viable you don't you won't never become solvent and I think it was purely an economic decision for me it wasn't sympathy over the the EV car owners they made that choice to purchase that vehicle um and to think anything different on what the city's role is is not free and I think that's what we agreed on but to say who else can own the beach parking spots who else can own you know the big parking lots it's public and the commercial private sector and and my recommendation was that we we do not try to get into the level three charging game those are very that would tip the risk scales for us really high I think the private sector will run with that um but we don't have any projections or plans to add any new EVS from from what I've seen new and so my hope is that we can do this monitor it and I think that it will be a positive npv when we calculate this when we do look at the cost but I do think it'll be slower than what we saw and that's for a lot of the reasons you said and so when you take out the cost of electricity that we're paying and Florida's average of electricity is about 12 cents a kilowatt hour industrial clients 11 11 cents I think we're all paying on our bills about 14 cents per kilowatt hour and so we're going to still have to pay that to fpl because we're not producing our own power so when we set the rate at 20 cents 14 or 12 cents goes out and 8 cents is left over that's as we were saying profit I guess cost of goods be the cost of electricity then when you do the overhead the maintenance and all that I still see cents per kilowatt leftover I'm not clear on exactly how much that is and when we do that times the 12 and roll it out I think it was a Smart Financial decision and that is not my way of saying that I disagree with a lot of the things and the information that was uh provided and I am always tried to remain open and flexible but EV sales passed a million units last year uh it's now made up 8 12 maybe even higher percentage I wrote the numbers down of the market share and so we did see some lags we saw reductions in projections but it was so optimistic that that we saw reductions in non EV as well and so I think their coming EVS are the billions of dollars being invested by the legacy of uh auto companies is a testament out of all the new car sales over 50% are Tesla I think there's a reason for that uh they sort of led the market I do believe that Eves will continue to grow as a percentage of market share whether it's going to be over 50% by 2030 I don't know I don't have a crystal ball but the trend line today shows yes a Q4 dip and I think it will continue to grow for a for a lot of reasons um and so my Hope was to say I believe that the market is here whether I 100% disagree with state law over in California require getting rid of the tailpipe um getting you know reducing Choice that's not the right direction but 165,000 cars were registered in the State of Florida I think I was reading um Mr Mayor yes sir pardon me I have to leave it for an engagement at 6 o'clock let's wrap it up oh you need to go now yes I need to go now thank you sorry than you thank you councilor member Willis so that really concludes my thought thoughts on it just kind of a big picture and we will see I know that the city's 120,000 and and I think that this is going to be cash flow positive uh I firmly believe that so and if it takes longer than expected again I would compare that to the other Investments the city makes and it would rank very high and that's that's those are my thoughts so my hope is if there's not anything here we can go back to the public city manager please I just want to make sure why we still have a consensus I can get some things agreed on here that um are receivables the three bullets we see on the screen right there we already got consensus on re providing report on the staff's capability to provide that on a quarterly basis that one's good there's two other things they need consensus on an analysis of um allowing Park 247 EV charging usage and needed code revisions is there a consensus on Council to provide that analysis report for parks for parking at parks city parks uh yeah I thought we took that one up the pros and cons Y and the third and final um receivable is report on the warranty what's included and provide potential maintenance costs after expiration of warranty okay yes sir thank you mayor thank you Council anything yes I have one last question um city manager on our vehicles that are electric which stations do they use um it would make sense for them to be at the facilities that where they're located okay so do do we have one at the Wastewater Plant we' we put the Clipper Creek back out there the old ones okay or some not all of them in other words would any of this data show the city's usage of recharging and are they how are they getting access if we've got credit card swappers on there um Zach would have that answer but um I recall we talked about that that the the cities would be doesn't make sense for the city to pay itself to drive its own power its own cars so it's like um this is how I see it it's a get electricity free card for for the city fleet all right and then one other thing I wanted to say is um Zach had given me some information on the charging hours during that time frame that we're looking at there were 843 charging hours in a 35 day period okay the city of cap canaval Community Center charging station which is one station with two plugs had 70 individual charging sessions the Banana River charging station one station with two plugs had 18 Manatee Park has one station with two plugs there were 82 individual charging sessions and then City Hall has the three stations with total of six and there were 143 individual charging stations uh charging sessions recorded and I'm looking at the plugshare app which I downloaded while we're talking here and first thing you see is a map and it shows all those stations and there each one has a score they call it a plug score and I'm not quite sure what goes into that plug score but they're colorcoded green seems to be the higher ones gray is more middle range some are just not rated at all but yeah those are out there so if we talked about the marketing piece it's already on the app that people use and he said also between 300 p.m. and 900 p.m. were the peak times for charging which is interesting after work right M total kilowatt hours dispensed was 4,892 1111 say that again if you 4,892 do11 was the total kilowatt hours dispensed so 4,800 or almost 4 just under 5,000 kilowatt hours is what that number was uh 4,892 kilowatt hours kilowatt hours at 12 cents that's $587 cost yeah and our and we made 1,55 right a total revenue you'd have to 155 and subtract the well that's actually not correct because the 900 um I don't know what period the 4,892 was for because it gives me charging sessions and he was I was saying it was 35 days however the um 1,55 was from when uh when they were upgraded in early December until uh February 11th so we probably want to take a look at that but the 800 43 plus hours um is what he was saying cumulative charging time that we recorded people plugging into charge and then the total kilowatt hours dispensed was the 4,892 thank you city manager did you have anything I'm clear thank you sir may ptim Kell Andrea would you like to say something please thank you report that idea and I suggest that when those reports come out that they be publicly published on the city's weekly email that everybody knows how much it's costing how much we're making good news the bad news Etc if that it be included obviously it won't be weekly but when they come out um include those in and this would also be an element of marketing because the whole Community who gets these newsletters will see it and then if they have guests coming in or Etc then they can guide their guests to it if they have an EV it's all part of the marketing plan I mean you know obviously we need to be telling them they're not here okay okay um let's see what dollar figure do we need to hit to break even on those monthly costs I think that that ought to be divided out by the output by the financial output how much do we need to bring in do you even just cut even okay um are the parking lots lighted do we are they lighted I I don't even know I I don't go to the parking lots at night I mean the the park parking lots okay there's that um if if something happens can we get out of the contract with this company that we've contracted with how bound are we are we stuck or can or if they're not showing any revenue and then that's a bad case scenario okay but we have to look at that too what do we do I mean do we just keep paying good money after bad for five years they're bought and paid for okay so the comp so we're all done with the company they're they're gone away okay all right okay um and then um let's see oh yes well that that's going to be part of the report the usage which ones are being used I I'm curious about that the ones over at the community center how are they are they viable I mean I asked the folks that work there today I went and worked out and I said how do you see car yeah we see a car there overnight yeah there's a car there now I'd like to know how much usage are each of these station getting and I think that'll be part of the report from what I understand okay and is it Revenue profit or loss for each one of those which ones are giving us the most profit which one's the least so I think I think if we can really parse this and explain it to the people uh it's going to be first of all it'll it'll show that there's accountability amongst this board and City staff and that's not bad that's always good um basically that's it that's that's what I have to say and I want to say thank you very much all of you for doing what you're doing I know that this is important to the city and again if we can Implement a policy that says from now on over a certain amount of expenditure that the city makes has to come come through the the council it can't just be willy-nilly and the people need to know about it use the Weekly Newsletter to keep the people informed there's a lot of stuff on that newsl I don't care about it's it's filler I know I used to do reports when I worked out at the Space Center and I know how to do filler I want numbers I want facts I want data I want things that the taxpayer out there is going to look at and go oh you're going to be educa if they don't come give them the information anyway and that's it have a nice evening thank you all of you thank you I think the investment the question that uh Andrea asked about the cost and you said we've already spent that we basically own the assets today so it's better payback time we would pay for them we could resell those assets right liquidate uh but the the ongoing 2400 what happens if we don't pay that it's probably it's probably spelled out in the agreement if I remember but you know if we get we don't pay that do the stations stop working I think we had we looked at that and can you swap or do they own the software do we swap because they do that monitoring and they the whole like PayPal the merchant service I think that's merchant services like the support of on the back end yeah yeah because you know how it is sometimes is you don't renew that fee and suddenly the whole thing doesn't work you know and then you're really um okay well uh I think any other public comments Sarah would you like to speak well I I think we can bring it back here um we got consensus on those few items that are city manager read back I am excited about learning more we will be at least be able to say the same things and we may not even agree but what's most important is that we are are saying the same numbers you know it's because 20 you know we're only x% that I don't think and other Council might say well it's because of that same percent that I do think is the good conversation but when one's over here with an amount the other is over here um I think that this that's going to help us have better information so that we can make really good decisions this sort of was a a messy the way that it happened over the years and those Clipper Creeks I think we squeezed as much value out of them as we can by using our existing Fleet but um we all want to make the right decision so if there's not any other comments uh council member Jackson you can have the final word I just want to thank everyone for our for your time coming from a systems background this was something that I think that we need to to look at and just for the monitoring going forward so we know what we're dealing with it helps it will help us make better decisions um and make sure we're aligned with costs and all of that so that's uh I appreciate everyone's time thank you and thank you again for all the work you've done it's very awesome very informative thank you thank you don't ask me to that goes up well thank you any reports I know it's just a workshop but anything you need to say no sir thank you good with that the meeting adjourned thank you