606 p.m. we have a a meeting uh I do recommend uh that we reconvene it um forward we'll make sure you're heard uh the and those of you online when public comment comes we ask that you please raise your hand council with that if we're ready we'll go ahead and get started city manager yes sir we good yes sir City attorney okay okay good evening everyone it is 616 p.m. we are here at the city hall council chambers 100 pul Avenue in the beautiful City of Cape canaval Florida for our regular city council meeting I call this meeting to order mayor P Tim Kellum would you please lead us in the [Applause] pledge flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you very much city clerk please call the role council member Davis here council member Jackson here mayor protim Kellum here mayor Morrison here council member Willis here thank you for all being here Council public city staff and those of you are listening online we appreciate you taking the time to be here apologize for the uh delayed start we had our CRA board meeting that went a little long and with that uh we are at the point of the agenda for the approval of agenda as written or with amendments Council are there any changes to the order or comments on on the agenda as written make a motion to approve the agenda as written I'll second got a motion by council member Willis second by council member Davis to approve the agenda as written discussion on the item my comments would be simple uh but very serious is the item that was placed is informational item number 11 update to the January 24th 2024 special city council meeting um My Hope and I believe that the council's request that this be a discussion item and in the last meeting I believe we moved uh this out of information into discussion I do not intend to do that tonight I do have some comments at reports and uh I will keep them as brief um as I can but I do want to express that my intention was to discuss this at every meeting until these items are resolved and and um I want to say that to the council to the public and on the record that um I hope to see this at as an item for discussion and certainly if this Council desires and wants to speak about it I'm willing but that's the only comments I have for the changes um to the agenda and if there are any other comments we can go ahead and call the role is it going to be a long you said you want to add topics or you want to discuss it you're not talking a long time for your item from number 11 um I I don't intend to I have brief comments and I I will be as as concise as I can be um but will we be able to get an update on the status of the project with being in the informational section no the from my understanding informational items are intentionally there to not be discussed that's that's a yes so so it is as a council uh to add on agenda items right by consensus last time we we discussed it or one of the time I don't know if it was the exact last time we moved it from information as a discussion item so that's the process to follow um I would like to move it into discussion then okay so second mayor was that your intention so the discussion or the item that we're on now is approval agenda as written or with amendments we have a motion by council member Willis a second by council member Davis no it was by I think oh I'm sorry original oh okay yeah that's the motion on the floor right now the discussion that's ensued um this was really the only opportunity I felt that I had to to express that uh here with the council and so we've we've now come to I guess the proposed council member Jackson would like to add that on yes please okay so I I think we would probably need to vote um either amend the motion or vote against this and make a new motion because we're approving it as written so um you can we can City attorney I believe amend the main motion to to add this on um and any other comment you can make on this action if there's any procedural issues altoe just to move item 11 for discussion yes I I don't recall the main motion that was made but if the main motion didn't include adding that as a discussion you can make a motion to modify or amend the main motion to add that as a discussion basically modifies thank you the agenda as presented can I just withdraw the motion yes unanimous consent the motion be motion be one council member objects V original by vote are all in favor can I just look around unanimous consent of the council just to withdraw that motion that was made and second it then councils will I'll withdraw the motion if I didn't give you ample time to that's a it came in a fast but I we dealt with it as hand withdrawing the motion do we have unanimous consent thank you for that I like that so uh we we we're at the approval of agenda as written or with amendments I think we've heard an amendment looking for a motion I'll make a motion to move item 11 into the discussion I'll second got a motion by council member Jackson second by mayor Pim Kell to move uh agenda item number 11 into the discussion uh my comment would be item it would become item number 10 is is that what you intended is okay with you because I think you have two items and council member Davis has an item as well I'm certainly not saying to go ahead of those but item number 10 is that c clerk are you clear any further discussion call the RO council member Davis against council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison four council member Willis four motion passes 4 to one and uh that concludes that section of the agenda we are now on to the presentation and interviews portion of the meeting and we have one tonight which is to interview the applicant for the appointment to the board of adjustment do we have Mr arvo elow here how are you doing come on forward if you don't mind please and uh our City attorney is just going to ask you a few questions and we'll get started thank you hi good evening all the information in your application is true and correct to The Best of You knowledge yes explain to the council why you would like to serve on this board I've been a resent of K for about 20 years now as of September this year uh I served on the board of adjustment about 10 12 years ago and at that time uh two terms as a board member and two terms as chairman of the board of adjustment after I term limited out uh kind of walked away from City service and I decided after talking to Todd recently that you're looking for someone and I'm glad to volunteer to come help again that's good that's thank you my questions okay well thank you again for being here and uh Council I don't have any questions but I say welcome back and thank you for your service than I appreciate your willingness to step into it again and thank you very much yes thank you so much for um being willing to participate I did have some questions though on your background cuz I like engineering what type of engineer were you a degree in theoretical mechanics and materials which is basically a mechanical engineering degree okay excellent and you are an executive manager in manufacturing yes very interesting what type of manufacturing we built power plants the whole career same K have a power plant one that uh my company seens had built at the time and many more around the world so you're very good at infrastructure we like that yes thank you thank you mayor P Tim Kell um I don't have any questions thank you and thank you for stepping up and we welcome you on the board again yes Echo the the the council thank you very much uh some tough decisions they don't come often but uh when they do really important for our community so thank you for your prior service and willingness to do it it again uh if you do you have if you have any questions for us I've never just done this I like the room better than the library when I was doing it thank you again sir we appreciate your willingness to serve thank you and we will take this up as a resolution here pretty early in the agenda um okay well now we can go ahead and move on to the public participation portion of the meeting and uh we've got a couple of comment cards here and for those of you listening at home we ask that you please raise your hand and we will make sure you're heard after those uh folks here have had a chance to speak the first card I have here is Mr John Benton John if you're here please come forward all right I'm here for my code reduction hearing I like to point out to the citizens I've been in the 50th these meetings and it's been 10 years next month you got to let somebody defend themselves when someone accuses somebody of living in a warehouse you don't just take his word because he's a deacon in the church up here at the Presbyterian Church my goodness he was a pedophile groomer man his son's a sex offender he was using the warehouse's next door on the sex offender site that he lived in there why didn't you give him a ticket why didn't you get him in there for that he had all the homeless people people in his units I only had one person in mind that was a cop and you wouldn't let me defend myself this lawyer over here his lawyer wouldn't even let me defend myself referred to me as a cookie that crumbled I didn't show them any respect people that have heard that recording cops lawyers doctors said my comments was first your witness testified after me I'm supposed to be able to ask him questions and I wasn't allowed to because he's a deacon in the church you put your religion before what's good for this country look what religion is doing for our country it's dividing it look what the Jews over there in Israel are doing killing those Palestinians they're calling Hamas terrorists those are people living in a prison over there open their in prison they escaped and went and killed their Jews kids those kids going to grow up be killing them later why not do it we're as guilty as Israel John can you please stay focused on City thank you this is Je over here he beat me man he beat hey that's enough that's enough you're not going to be boisterous and and and slander those things if you'd like to conclude yet we've heard enough thank you yeah come on okay Mr Pat Campbell Patrick Campbell 307 surf Drive uh I don't think anybody ever told you it was going to be easy sitting up there okay I'm sorry for what you have to put up with um I got a couple things just for General com I've been trying to I spent a lot of time in bsna if you didn't know that but I've been trying to find um the resolution or the disposition of 30 Parcels that uh developer Michael to Christopher filed code complaints against uh I can't find any of them in bsna I don't know if I'm not looking for it correctly uh or they're not in there but I can't I can't find what was done with them um I'm just interested in the disposition did the city find it to have Merit or did they just decide that it had no merit and how do you close these how do you get them off of your plate the um we spent a lot of money on that bsna system so um for me it it's better than not having it but it certainly is not meeting the the promises that that came with that $300,000 purchase yet uh I'm still seeing um duplicate parcel numbers in there that I pointed out a couple of years ago that haven't been cleaned up uh I'm hoping the city's going to going to use it to its fullest uh and I hope there's a plan to get it operational where it is a benefit to all of you uh not just the citizens but certainly I have some expectations of it that aren't being met yet I think it is a good system it's used by lots of lots of uh municipalities so I think it has the capability it's just not there for us yet um Todd I told you I going to keep coming back on this um it's coming up on hurricane season it's probably too late for this time but I I was hoping we could get as a city put a uh Amnesty Day uh for household chemicals and electronics uh I see many uh counties and cities in Florida that are used in the next few months to do that where they set up uh satellite sites in your municipality where you can bring the junk out of your garage uh get rid of your old electronics and have it recycled properly uh rather than depend on somebody to haul it over to U Bard County and I'm sure you all know sometimes that doesn't happen sometimes it ends up in a dumpster sometimes it ends up in our drains uh the more we could do to provide a better way for Citizens and better way is what's easy people would do what's easy so you know take the queue from other cities and counties and and Florida that are doing this Amnesty Day program once a year I think I think it would be a benefit all the way around um so that was it that was I want to talk about thank you thank you okay those are the only two comment cards that I have thank you uh for your time I have check online see if those participating virtually anyone has their hand raised we please ask you please raise your hand online if you intend to speak I will unmute you and give you a chance to speak going up and down I see no hands raised and with that we'll go ahead and close public participation bring it back to the council for the consent agenda we have four items Council if there's any items we would like to pull from the consent agenda no vote needed just let me know which ones we want a poll and otherwise we'll vote through the balance the remaining um just take a second here I I would like to pull item number four please um and that's it for me I'll make a motion that we um approve the consent agenda number one two and three I'll second second got a motion by mayor Tim Kellum second by council member Willis to approve consent agenda items one two and three any further discussion Council seeing none city clerk council member Davis council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis four right items 1 2 and three pass 5 item number four the item I pulled which is resolution 202 403 appointing a board of adjustment to the City of Cape Canaveral providing for the repeal of Prior and consistent resolution severability and an effective date this is the gentleman uh we just interviewed and my comments are uh is this the the um size of that board and the vacancies can we have a refresher on how many serve on the board of adjustment is it a 357 whoever I think city manager can help answer that question that size of that board Dave Dave is indicating there are seven members on that Dave do you know how many are currently on that board according to the paper that council member will gave out right last I if it was last meeting before there are one four serving on it with three vacancies that is correct that's that's my understanding as well thank you very much so this would make the fifth out of seven okay and we recently were uh provided the opportunity to appoint uh a board member to the culture and Leisure Services Board since then I think we've seen um some changes and I think some more applicants who've uh shown interest which is fantastic uh I don't think we've had any other board appointments since then I want to make sure that we are following a process that's similar because we're in the same circumstance with one member this board is important I know that we we might need to work on our code and procedures but sounds like with with three vacancies he's going to fill one of the three yes sir and we are did we follow a similar or the same process for that board as we had for the culture and Leisure Services Board recently and the goal is to to get more applicants obviously in this circumstance would be very beneficial with three vacancies and so I don't want to make an appointment excuse me uh to the board of adjustment without using the same principles as culture and Leisure Services I think maybe the question might be phrased did did the city procedures change at all for this board or that board and my answer to that would be no we've not done anything differently Mia we haven't advertised any specific board over another board for example we on our Bo but for all of our boards yeah equally as far as and no other procedural change has taken place to try to recruit or attract board members yeah there may have been an increased word of mouth but that's not just City staff there's a vacant there's one vacancy on the culture and Leisure Services Board Molly or John you want to speak to that are there indic and how many applicants roughly do we have right now n nine applicants for two nine applicants and so they pick first priority second and third and so we've got nine interested people to serve on boards um if any of those chose second it's I know that we don't have the benefit to wait and maybe you know we have to take action on appointing board members but if if there's any desire to improve this I hope we can figure out a way to possibly as we were talking our city manager interviewing a batch at a time and making kind of a wave of appointments to fill um so so that we can consider all because I haven't taken a look at the applications or seen them but if some of them are interested in the board of adjustment we're sort of in a just a fairness mayor if I could ask Molly or John to come up and speak to the question of um are are those nine applicants only interested in the culture and leer Services board or are they interested in all boards or multiple boards without having all of the applications in front of me right now I would say that the majority of them only selected CLS but there's a couple that have selected multiple boards Mr Mayor thank you very much yes council member Willis shouldn't we allow those boards to just submit who they recommend for appointment to their board and we act upon those recommendations and if they have if someone is not selected for that board and they have a second or third choice for another board that might be open they automatically get rotated to that board for consideration rather than just being out of hand dismissed um I don't think it's for us to determine what that board wants to submit to us I don't think that's fair to that board to uh for us to take out of their hands who they want to have on their board May if I may add yes please one of our applicants had previous the one that I can off the top of my head say that she applied for or she showed interest in multiple boards had been interviewed by um Community Development and the the board that she had listed as number one did not have any more vacancies so since she included CLS we added her to our list okay I'm not advocating for I think anything other than we don't I think we all have a desire to improve our board appointment procedures we express that and when I saw this board appointment I just paused and said we're doing something really well to get 11 interested over here we've got you those seem like some recent changes that really were effective um we have one applicant and um it's trying to look at the big picture here um I agree with council member Willis if we've only got one in the the board recommends that this person become is comes and sits on their board then we should take their rep you know their recommendation as an the last applicant to this one you've got boards that have people you know vacancies for what three years and they're sitting there and they could use the extra person and we're I feel like we should do the recommendation of the board we're we're hindering our board by not allowing those that are qualified to be on it and Morrison I I'm having a gap after they the board makes a recommendation because of the fact like uh council member Willis said on the number two of their application on page two they can select you know all of the boards in order of their interest I want to ensure that we don't lose applicants if they don't get on one board that may have talents on other boards that's that's something that we don't want to lose them being able to serve for the city on a board so I'm not sure what the process of is for those folks whether they're just you know once the positions are filled on boards that they selected for number one and two or they just well you didn't get on that board or are we going in and allowing them to be interviewed with the other Wards and it sounds like with Molly that that's happening because you just said there was a crossover right but is that happening with any you know if someone came to apply for the planning and zoning and didn't get on that one would they would that apply you know is it something being applied equally across all of the boards to where we ensure that they are able to serve on one of them mhm if interested I agree and I love that we rank I think that I don't know if other communities do that but I it's I think that's one of the goals of ranking is to do exactly what you're you're saying um thank you yes I I'm board advisory appointments have were were just as we said for years here doing it and I think this recent one uh is is a good example of uh some of the challenges just to understand who is responsible the procedures um I think we we can improve there and with this this board member serving on the board of adjustment previously served do we have any other applicants that we know of for the board of adjustment uh being that there's two [Music] vacancies Dave do you have have any information on that my understanding is we have one additional applicant for the board of adjustment so that would take us to six if that appointed thank you council member Davis I'm going to bring this up in in agenda number seven which is back in 2 2022 resolution 2022 D28 if you look at number 11 it says that although we Council should trust that the boards have done their due diligence and accept their efforts there's a whole applica I'm not going to read all of it but you know that's something that we all agreed on and we signed it council member Jackson I know it's new to you but the rest of us signed that and we agreed that we should go we should respect their due diligence and accept their efforts so I think do what the recommendation of the board says I ask a question Mr Mayor absolutely Dave if there's another applicant why are we not interviewing them today too great question um that came in after our last Board of adjustment meeting so I recall and our Board of adjustment meets very infrequently maybe two three times a year so oftentimes we'll have to sit on an application for a boa uh appointment for a long time and that dissuades certain folks and um frankly a lot of folks aren't interested in Board of adjustment uh the the pnz and and Molly's board seem to be the two most popular ones um so when we do get an applicant we're very excited um and I will say too um in the last year we've had to cancel publicly noticed Board of adjustment meetings because we couldn't get a quorum so just a comment mayor um and I ask the city clerk to correct me if I get any of this wrong but the procedure to my knowledge has always been a first come first serve um so if let's say there's a a board that meets only once every six months like the board of adjustment could be one of those boards they'll collect applications for people indicating interest in the board of adjustment as one of their selections and all of those that get in before that board meeting happens will get interviewed if that was one of the ones they wanted but you might get another board that only meets monthly um and then you you would get all those that come in timely for that board and and then of course the board holds their meeting actually technically the agenda goes out and it's too late to add them after the agenda but you got a matter of a stacking queue of people lining up in case of culture and Leisure Services nine of them St backing up up to that point where we had an agenda to put out well let's put all nine of them on there if they can and then we have that meeting and there might be a 10th or 11th or 12th one that apply after that well there may not be a vacancy after that so it's kind of been a first come first served kind of stack them all in as you can and pack them into that meeting if they can this is a great problem to have with Board of adjustment we haven't had applicants I'm so grateful for arvo being here but in the case of culture and leer Services we got now nine of them that all want to be packed into this one meeting that'd be great that's a great problem to have for for two vacancies I think it is assuming they can all show up and then we run into a problem perhaps of maybe somebody says I would love to be there for that meeting but I can't I've got a family trip planned or whatever I can't be there they might do they miss that opportunity that's a good question do we hold everybody off does the Bo and how do we handle that and what I've directed Molly to do for the culture and Leisure Services Board is give the board their choices give them their options you can do this you can do this you there I think there's four choices that they can look at it then that board can make a recommendation and on how they want to proceed and they will proceed and that recommendation will come to council with that not only they who they recommended but how they got there thank you I think so when an application comes in we're immediately processing it over to get it on the agenda it goes to the department that's in charge of that agenda yes says put this person on if you can but it goes to the board for a recommendation so and then obviously it comes to the council so um I I would like to have I mean in the end having a minimum of a few candidates is is to me just like when we put a bid out there's a reason why we have to get more than one I don't know well I think you I guess you spoke to him did how did he find out about it we ran into each other at Publix in the chicken line at the deli okay lemon pepper ortis yeah that's delicious and so and then you suggested I said we'd love to have you be a board member again if you'd like to apply and that was it okay got it and do with the process that we followed since for culture and Leisure Services is similar or the same to this process I guess that's if I can yeah confirm that we don't do anything differently no they whoever you know emails us goes directly sorry the email that we receive with the application goes directly to the director or directors that the applicant has expressed interest in serving on their board um you know because they can check off whatever they're interested in so wouldn't necessarily send something to Molly if they didn't check off culture and leader Services Board and then other times people can walk those applications in and staff knows that they're either supposed to walk that application to the city clerk's office or go ahead and scan it and send it to us in an email saying we received this today and as soon as we get that if if we're at our desk and we're able to do it we send it to um either Molly or um uh David Dicky for the applicate you had tonight is an interesting situation because as I indicated earlier we don't the boa hardly ever we I think we've met twice last year just grabbing that number but it wasn't more than three so we sat on arvo's application for oh man it been six months since November 17th 2023 yeah so what is that December January February March April seven months that was close um and that's that's one of the challenges we have with some of the boards I mean if and I'm not I'm not arguing with you mayor I'm saying if we if we're to wait to get two or three applicants before we bring them to the council in a in a group for our boa may be it may be a while so I I like the idea I think it's important for you to be able to have a choice but it's it's that needs to be considered as well I know again when you say sit on an application you're talking about you've received it from I guess the city clerk's office or and you what does that mean that means we interview them right away to make sure that they're that when I say we interview them I generally meet with the folks as as you as you indicated there's they can select one through six or one through five and often times they do and so if say if there's an applicant has pnz is number one we have a full pnz board so obviously they can't have their first choice so we'll sit down and talk with them we'll meet with Molly as well and just to see um what their specific desires are and their interests and their strengths and how it how that how that may marry up with what our what our openings are in our boards so when I say we sit on it we'll interview an applicant and um it may be months before we actually have an opportunity to take them to the board to get interviewed that's what I meant part of that time spent with you or Molly is also sh sharing options with them about well this board's full but this one has two vacancies and they're going to meet in two weeks and this one if you want to wait a month they have three openings so you share the opt options with them and then they can tell you oh well I'd like to go for that one then right and that helps kind of steer the process right so just to be clear you say sit on though what I don't I still don't understand what that when I when we get an application from the city clerk's office interv and like say it's for Planning and Zoning Board so we'll interview that person and if let's Board of adjustments probably more appropriate like arvo I'm going to use him as a specifically as an example sounds like we got that application in November I can't tell you the day we interviewed him but it was let's just say it was even December we we waited a month which I can't imagine we did that so we waited a month and the board of adjustment didn't meet until last month April sometime I believe so that would be December January February March April that would be five months that we weren't able to take action on that application got it with the board for them to be able to make a recommend so that's what I mean by sitting on it the next available board meeting you're not sitting on it getting through board you don't skip a board meeting no no no so it's immediately the first available board meeting any interviews as you were explaining first conf first okay thank you Mr May ccil member Willis um I'm probably one of very few on this de that have been through the process and I had my 1 through six and and the My First Choice was not going to meet because they did not have enough to meet so that's right I got to go to the second one because that was the first opportunity and I was declined from the second one because it was not my first choice that was the total reason I remember that yes yes but uh they never sat on anything thing I mean it was you know well we can't there's not enough people to vote on you so they couldn't meet so it just opted to the next one and I think that the way that the boards have been operating um if they maintain that procedure is is appropriate and if they have nine people to interview they're going to want to send however many vacancies they have they'll send those to us and if we agree with all three of them or four however many there might be then that to me is appropriate first to do but to ask the board to just send all of them up here just uh usurps what we've asked them to do in the beginning we asked them to send us recommendations for whatever uh we send to them board members should be the same so I I just did not understand the process and I didn't know that that City staff I didn't that was helpful went through that I didn't have to go through that to be on the city council and so we appoint them ultimately we are responsible for those decisions to the public boards in the past have made decisions that I strongly disagree with I do not believe we're in a rubber stamping entity we have to make the final decision we lean on their knowledge subject matter to dive in on a specific area and so in the past it has been got one appoint one got one to point1 thank you thank you thank you as they're coming through and today we are coming off the heels of an exciting opportunity to improve how we appoint and I wanted to make sure that the the methods that we used that yielded 11 interested applicants is the same that we have one and three vacancies and if it if that's the same or if we need to extend that's fine I don't have the answers but understanding our rules of procedure um and and working as efficiently as we can I certainly understand what it means now next available meeting I don't have any other comments on this I'm fine with moving forward uh and thank you for discussion on that matter and I'll make a motion to approve resolution number 202 24-3 Al second got a motion by council member Davis second by council member Willis to approve resolution number 20243 any further discussion it's good city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis four okay we at 6:58 p.m. uh and we are now complete or uh just finished the consent agenda moving on to items for Action number five is to discuss the findings of the Wastewater sufficiency analysis requested by council at June 21st 2022 city council meeting and support staff's recommendation to proceed with the 5% waste water rate increase for fiscal year 2425 is set forth in the 2022 analysis we had a um I think everyone uh well exception of council member Jackson had a chance to uh review this analysis and at that time we were looking at making a five-year decision I think we made the five-year decision but we wanted to check in annually and see how those projections are going instead of you know making such a um long-term decision city manager yes sir that that's a great summation I would just add that we do the Wastewater Revenue sufficiency analysis every five years to make sure that this important utility is healthy we we put a plan in place that looks at the revenues and the expenses over five over the past previous five years but also projecting over the next five years we say okay these are the rates we have if we stay with this we're going to have to you know we're going to eventually run out of money so we have to do annual increases you know but they have to make sense that the amount of the increase needs to make sense so we put a projection in there that not only looks at operations but it also looks at the Surplus you need to have a healthy Surplus to make sure you can bounce back if there's a critical need or a critical malfunction um so the what the Wastewater sufficiency analysis did for the first year was say we want to we recommend here's your rate first year we recommend a 7 half% increase um and that will yield us a surplus of X year two we recommend a uh an increase of 5% that will yield us a surplus of Y um but what happened uh last year when we looked at this the 7 and a half% we had gone through an unexpected inflationary period where employees wages went up we were paying off srf loans we had materials were costing a lot more things got a lot more expensive awful fast back then and we we were talking about this last year and we realized there's no way we're going to hit the Surplus if we stay at 75% but stff recommended we did we' hold the line at 7.5% because this inflationary period can't last forever it's going to have to have a cooling off period we we we all know that this it goes in Cycles so last year we recommended we hold the line don't increase don't try to hit that Surplus number just hold the line at 7 and a half% as recommended this year fast forward 365 days here we are again the the economy has not completely slowed down we're still dealing with inflation but I don't think it's as bad as it was but we're still not going to ever hit that Surplus because of all the impacts of inflation over the previous two years it almost makes the study kind of like you're never going to hit those numbers it's just not going to happen over the five-year Horizon given the economic Cycles so we're faced again with making a decision a recommendation do we go with 5% or do we go with something higher well to hit that Surplus that the year two projection year three projection was asking for we'd have to raise it 12% instead of 5% and and we just we don't think that's going to be necessary for the same reasons because we will have a surplus it won't be John I'm going to get rough numbers here uh 5007 $600,000 Surplus it'll be a $1 15200 th000 Surplus at the 5% range and we're we're still comfortable with that kind of writing it out next year may be different but staff has recommending we we stay with the 5% as recommended and and not increase it it's also important to note that we do have contingency funding in the Enterprise funds that if something terrible does happen it's not like we're out of money there's still contingency funds in there John did I miss anything NOP that's on the on the money so we're recommending we stay with the 5% as recommended mayor thank you do we have the rate study I don't I think that these numbers were extrapolated on the the last attachment I don't know that the project the table that was provided but it would have been 2022 that we approved it MH I don't think you've had a chance to really dive into that um I I would I would encourage that because what I think City staff has done here is pulled the first recommendation was the 7 and a half% as our city manager explained and we are now into they recommend 5% so and then it goes 5% again and then it steps down to 2% it's like a five two and a half and so um my question is around there there was two there was several projections but there's this income projection which is you taking the percentage rate that we that's that's the revenue sort of like an Enterprise fund I get business here um the O and M I can't recall but those line items expenses so I think o and m so can we go to the last table um that was provided keep going it's the thank you very much uh one more there no one more one more oh that that's the projected I would just go into the final go all the way up uh down I'm sorry down thank you keep going keep going one more there you go okay so thank you that's perfect uh so the First Column study 2425 this is saying these items according to the study this is what it projected right so if I went back I can see uh where you were earlier you don't need to go back to this but attachment Sho shows five the top number there $ 5,481 was projected with a 5% increase at the time today the next column current I'm just staying on that Top Line utility revenue is we are looking at I guess $400,000 short if we stay at the rate we're on to if we do not increase at all is that what that's saying right so if we do nothing we the F20 the fy2 24 estimate get you 5 million and then with the projected that we're going to do in 20 425 that gets you up to 53 but today we're we set the rate 75% higher last year last year yep if we do not increase it all is this that's the number that we would we would achieve $5 million according to right and we end up 70 based on all the projections $74,000 would be a deficit then and current based on the estimates right now cuz we're only through what April May but with a but if we increase it 5% it adds another 250,000 just on the top line right now right so a five so that's that's one decision that the rate will achieve the second projection which was provided by them is the most important one I want to focus on because that was Surplus so that's I guess we could call the bottom line right that's what after expenses what would be left over those projections were dependent on achieving certain costs and from my understanding following that same logic or uh the formula I guess we had onm net revenue Debt Service nonoperating expenses we haven't total all those up but it's I guess yeah $561,000 more than um I mean sorry less so it's about $5 million in expenses if they were total because to have the 561,000 it seems like left over and so that's what the projection said our cost should be however with the study back when it was done in the middle of 2021 or uh 22 yeah 20 well 22 you you you went ahead and um that was the first year that we uh instituted this but just about six months before you approved that that's when the study was completed yeah so and it and the study said at that time that when we got to this point for next year 2425 that this was yield 561,000 based on all the data that the people that did the study had at the time but of course they didn't know what the inflation would be what the salaries would be what the what the the debt would be but they they made those they made those assertions but you know it was a study so what you had me do is say okay John go back see what the Run rates are and where you believe we're going to end up and when I show what we're getting end up with we're close to just round off and say well we'll have a $200,000 Surplus and um that's at 5% so we're not going to raise the utilities uh you know to 12% to achieve the um 566 because that's a bit unrealistic to do that and even to do that for the for the citizen so we're saying that we are fine with the 5% this year and have a 200% Surplus because the city in the Wastewater fund does have about $400,000 in our unrestricted RNR uh funds which keeps us healthy so we're not going to in other words we're not going to just go ahead and raise it to 12% because that's what the study said we're seeing real time what's happening we're healthy in Wastewater and storm water U not that that has to do with it but so um with that being said said uh you know that's why staff recommends just stay with the 5% we don't want to raise the rates on the citizens so we would be raising the rates on the citizens by 5% oh well well we're we're taking it yeah of course to stay to stay in line to make sure we're achieving enough I know but we're still doing a 5% but we're not doing a we're not doing a 12% to achieve the surus the stud I know we can yes but we are raising of course we're raising a 5% we're going to raise a where did the 12% where does the 12% come was that in the study was that provided in the study or was that a number that you deter we needed to hit to hit their Surplus numbers see so they didn't recommend a 12% they said if we keep operating costs at this level and your revenue is at that level you should have a surplus of this and so instead of just moving the percentage that's the easy way I would like to figure out can we cut costs because column two current is 74,000 deficit if we do not increase at all 0% the reason we wanted to look at this annually or at least I'll speak for myself is so that we could figure out I'm glad we didn't approve this at once because it would be a pre-approved 5% rate like we did with been approved so if if we what are we v um deciding on tonight the city council when it reviewed the revenue sufficiency analysis performed by your consultant in 2022 adopted a resolution establishing a five-year rate schedule that was recommended by the rate consultant so the in 2425 the rates go up um 5% right pursuant to the resolution that the council previously approved what sta is telling you is that the revenues and expenses um your Surplus projected Surplus is less than um than oh your Surplus is projecting to be less than what was projected but the 5% the 5% is required it stays in line with the study the council approved in 2022 so that's all doing is keeping the 5% just want to make it clear you know to the council too is that I mean the five the 5% increase is already already been for next year has already been approved that's right absent a adoption of a resolution modifying that 5% increase that 5% increase would go into effect um October 1 and what staff's telling you is in order to meet your um Surplus that was projected by uh refis um you know you you would have to do a higher increase than what you've already approved right that's correct you'd have to go up to 12% but that you know again that that's not that action would require a resolution of the council to increase the rates above the the 5% that it will be going into effect October 1 right right and staff recommends to stay with what council approved in 2022 5% increase unless the council changes unless the council changes it y thank you can we go to the agenda cover uh do you follow just the front page the subject of this is uh discuss the findings of the first P Wastewater Revenue sufficiency analysis requested by council at the June 21st 2022 city council meeting and support staff's recommendation to proceed with the 5% Wastewater rate increase for fiscal year that when I read that that's I understand what you're saying and I can actually it could have been probably worth Smith a little bit differently um so if we take no action 5% is happening right if we wanted to but the intent to review this was to to change the resolution if needed is exactly the council wanted to reserve the right to review to see where you stand whether the projections that ref tus made um come to fruition and whether the council thinks it's in the best interest to modify the rates um so for the council to modify the rates would require another resolution um hypo let's just do a hypothetically the council could reduce the rates um the increase um relatively straightforward manner any increases in utility water and sewer utility rates require a much more complicated uh special notice requirement and what I would like to add is as I've been asked to do this analysis in April and we have May June July August and September so I would just I would uh be tell Council to be cautious in the not not to reduce below the 5% was recommended because if for some reason revenues come in lower we could end up in the red so this it's you know because I'm doing an analysis halfway through the year with run rates and I don't know what's I I don't know what else is going to happen with the other items so um right now I'm saying if the things keep going like they are we'll be $185,000 in the black so all I'm saying is we can push up on percentages but we also we didn't we didn't have an analysis on uh lowering operating costs because we went over we exceeded their projections in operating costs we're only talking about how it fell short on the top line opposed to that and of course that's going to shrink the Surplus my I My Hope Is that we uh we take a hard look at this and it sounds like we would need to to bring the resolution forward if if when you're saying a change to the attorney it's in we are increasing to the 5% pre-approved by the resolution 20 22 but if we go over that already approved 5% that process is a little bit more cumbersome correct to lower it okay to low to lower it it's less cumbersome right it would just need to be you know General notice and then the council would have a public hearing on the on the rate resolution to reduce the rate for the next year if you want to increase it above 5% that would be considered a rate increase and a rate increase requires different notice requirements but we are already increasing their rate from last year's rate because correct because the council adopted a five-year rate schedule in 2022 okay thank you for uh hearing me out my hope is that uh well we're going to be meeting Thursday on the CIP once again revenue is going to be a big part of that conversation I think here we can see that last page that we were at is if we stay the course we're projecting a 74,000 ,000 deficit um my hope would be that we can figure out ways to lower costs so that we find $74,000 to cut in the final six months um and then approach whatever percentage keep it but um that's all those are my comments I would be interested in considering to change it at a future meeting by resolution um it's hard to say until Thursday comes hi I would disagree I don't think we should lower it we already know if we lower it we're going to go in the red so as the projected that we have now so I don't think we should lower it to go into the red I mean I don't want to raise taxes I don't want to raise it 5% either but I mean I don't want to go into the red so I would be against lowering it this is what we we agreed on in 2021 to whatever so we agreed to review it annually yeah I would think it would we should not lower and take the chance of going into the red just to comment back but I we shouldn't go into red what I'm saying is but do you agree that we could should look at we're projecting a 74,8 N4 deficit if we stay the course shouldn't we look at ways to cut costs it's there's more variables to the equation I had questions about that that's my because I'm I'm as you said I'm unfamiliar with this so I'm trying to get my so what would you like to cut hold on on my question what do you want to cut what I'm confused that's okay we don't need to take any action tonight but just we need to maintain order council member Jackson was speaking um um in the attachment to in the middle uh in the paragraph it speaks of in the increasing cash flows or important help the utility continue to fund the capital Improvement projects during and Beyond the forecasted period and that the positive cash flows will allow the utility recover the unrestricted operating Reserve funds that'll be depleted while implementing the Capital Improvements I was trying to line those up with the capital Improvement list to try to understand which Capital Improvements we're looking at and I know that we'll be doing that in this third Thursday's meeting but um I know some of those we've already got you know that are well in well on their way as far as rehabbing um the the clarifier but there were a lot of these and I was wondering and wanting to make sure that the ones that I'm seeing I understand in relation to this paragraph about what the capital Improvement project will be for this that could impact that cash flow council member Jackson those expenses John we need to be able to stay on I am I'm going to clarify council member Jackson need to read the 20 Page report to see what that means you weren't here the mayor's chairing the meeting and let him okay okay um I'd like for her to be able to and if I may speak after that if I may speak after that I think you're all we always give to speak absolutely thank you yeah so I just wanted to be able as someone that is new to line those up so that I know what's coming next year versus the projects that I'm seeing I was trying to do that so yes John I was just going to say that um some of the verbiage that you're reading there's an 182 page uh that that's why we get RAF Tillis a consulting company that that has to take all these factors into to effect um there's a lot to you know a lot to project with capital projects and what have you but if you were to read the 18 page 20 Page uh report that I got which I I I can send it to you tomorrow it might give you a better understanding of everything you know and we can't oversimplify what's happening here and I'm taking run rates and where we're at and then you're looking at that's why they have these comprehensive sheets that's why the city pays $188,000 to to do this because they're taking in all these um all these uh different factors my final my final statement is this and when I'm asked to look at an analysis and see where we're at during the year that's exactly what I do based on what's in front of me what's actually happening now I can't predict what's going to happen 14 months from now I'm just not I'm just not uh that good I don't know what capital projects are going to make it or not make it but just by looking at it uh at that way you it allows me to say confidently if we keep it what council did that approved in 202 uh2 then the 5% works for the city and it leaves about $185,000 in uh Surplus and I just want to understand what the capital Improvement projects are and the importance of them so I'll read that and I'm appreciative of you sending that to me and remember those projects in this book may have changed since then which just changes the whole but I think it's important for us to look at those and understand I I'm one and I'm I mentioned it before with the um the flooding issue I like to look at things and I like to prioritize them and I so that piece was missing from that report for me and I'm appreciative to hear that and I'll be happy to get that and read that because I want to ensure that everything we're doing are necessary things we don't want anything happening to our Wastewater especially din a storm or anything like that right um so we don't want to cut in areas that we shouldn't be cutting but we also I'm I'm very cognizant to the fact that right now the economy is hard not only are we seeing the inflationary results with in this report even of what's going on um with our economy our citizens are too and so it's of interest to me to ensure that we try to be as lean and mean as we can be and make sure that we're we've got ourselves covered in the same token okay and just one final Point very important if Council decides to change up or down here I need to know by July 15th because Coco needs 60 to 90 days to change to update the rates so you need it by July yesterday July 15 if you were going to change it we'd have to get something passed by July 15th okay okay um so thank you thank you director jio thank you John thank you may ptim any comments any other comments here okay so yes my hope would be that uh I think we're going to move we're moving forward this change would not happen before July 15th so so if rates aren't going to increase tomorrow is that right no the the these rates are effective October 1st I'm just saying to give Coco enough time they usually tell me between 60 and 90 days they need to have this to upload it and we have to provide that to them if there's a change in the rate if there's a change if there's not a change then yeah and I I would just say that um I'm not sure what how you could project out some of these other capital projects which you haven't decided on yet to see how this will affect your uh this 5% that's going to be an interesting I might have to call in another consultant to uh figure that out because I don't know what those numbers are that's all I got thank you I think um there's no action needed here it's just it was to look under the hood and see how it's going thank you John putting these numbers together and uh helping us understand that it is it is hard to look far out I mean we made a five-year decision and that's why I think what we did here was really wise um so thank you if there's nothing else we can move on just say if any desire to change that we got our deadline July uh 15th uh so I think it probably need to be next next month the June meeting so you have enough time all right thank you moving on to the next agenda item number six last item for Action uh which is resolution number 20242 amending the Define contribution retirement plan for General employees of the City of Cape canav Florida providing for the repeal of Prior and consistent resolution severability and effective date um city manager yes sir uh this is I believe the third appearance of this item um because council's been wanting to keep it in front of them in Le of the in in light of the fact that we've got a budget and CIP items and this could have a potential increase impact on the budget um was discussing this with staff and the City attorney this afternoon and we did find um an inconsistency that I want to point out uh that could affect the council's decision on this item or even to put it off to another time but um what that is is the the issue of immediate vesting um we talked about moving currently the vesting period is a fiveyear period before you get 100% vested it's year one year this year two year that you step towards 100% at five years and the the process that or the the information that we were given or HR was given through um um what's the organization not not Florida League of cities FM the same we're saying that you know this is one area you can be a little more attractive is bring forward your vesting period and the way that the ordinance is written right now it says we're proposing immediate vesting however that's not actually what we wanted the inconsistency is that we meant at 6 months probation not immediate not today not the day you're hired but at 6 months and there's a corollary um to that and that is the employee the employer paid portion of that doesn't actually happen until 12 months after uh an employee starts the the employee paid portion can start immediately but the employer paid portion doesn't start for 12 months so I want the council to be aware of that that if you move that immediate vesting you go to any shorter term investing investing period you would also want to consider moving that start time for City contributions to to match with that right now it's at a year because that's when the vesting period starts to acre but if we were going to move it move it to at six months we would also then have to move the counc or the city approval City contribution funds to six months just want to say that those two need to align wherever the vesting period stops begins that's when the the city contributions begin they need to align with that and this doesn't specify it that way so I want to point out that inconsistency um so with that kind of covered let's talk about what this does in general um we were approached we we approached um the the the consultant about this about becoming more competitive or are we competitive where we are and we have a defined contribution which is to say we don't have a pension what what gets put into these accounts is what the accounts are and how they grow or not grow over time you get out of it what gets put into it and currently um city employees have the option to put 3% into a 457b retirement account up to 3% and city council will I'm city council the city will match up to 3% if you do 1% you get one two two 3 three but no more than three in that and then City also puts 7% into the 401a so there's a 7% employer contribution and a 3% employee contribution totaling a 10% uh so the proposal was well you could go some cities you're doing 11 and five and we put that out to council we said that that would be a $181,000 hit each year just to change that if we want to do that yes it does help us to attract and retain a talent um and we could consider that and the city council talked about this back in March 19th and the city council uh then discussed two different options well what if we did instead of 11 and five what did we would did 9 and four or maybe 10 and three so the the analysis was done and they're $90,000 and $992,000 respectively uh impacting the budget so the reason we're doing this is because we need to know if we need to plug this number into the budget obviously it would help us be be um more attractive to new employees and help us to retain Talent as well um Natalie did I miss anything Natalie's our HR Director if you haven't met her anybody knew Natalie's terrific no I mean it was originally proposed Ed in the March meeting that it would be implemented after the probationary period to remove the vesting and um start the contributions after 6 months that was the original proposal it just wasn't written into the resolution thank you yeah thank you Council and any comments on this I had a chance to speak with the city attorney and I think when I left off we were wanting to bring this in again with the budget but I think you and I were talking about um the importance of this is so that when we a budget for it I mean right to to plan we know what today is happening and so my hope is that we would be able to make a decision um after we look at at everything it's hard to vote these through individually prior because we sort of come in with you know only so much room and I think we had some data between the first one and the second one that helped um understand what the other cities were was that in the last meeting that that was provided it was yeah we had gone out to the 74 or so municipalities around us but we only received about 11 responses where felir was about the most equal to us and they had removed the vesting and could start contributing immediately thank you so that's all my comments is um not to beat a drum here but I did want to wait till Thursday excuse me you said you wanted to wait till Thursday before taking action yeah I think the whole point of this was to to get through the budget and then decide on what we wanted to do mhm well I I know we seriously need to consider being as attractive as possible because we are getting younger not us on the day but our employees um because we we have retirements we have people leaving whatever and we're we've been fortunate enough to attract some younger Talent very uh very helpful and I would like to see us be able to keep them so we need to we need to adjust it I'm sure but uh I I would like to see us make a a good effort at retaining this younger Talent we have thank you council member Davis much thank you Jackson with me it's the timing and having my a good understanding of the budget overall and the capital Improvement project and and everything so with me it's timing I think we need to be competitive but I want to make smart decisions and I'm get my hands around all of this thank you mayor protim um my question is don't we need to decide on a rate so we know how much it's going to impact the budget or is you want to wait till Thursday to decide on the rates instead of deciding on a rate and then and setting a budget around one item I'd like to set a a budget and and come back to the rate that could now knowing that we have all of these other expenses how much do we want to provide as a raise for the city employee opposed to let's give this percentage and I'm saying raise excuse me um increase in contributions to those uh retirement um does that make sense it was just we're choosing a percentage well what if I mean what if we do the budget and there's not $90,000 what what are we going to do I mean if we know we have this amount of money that we need to take care of our employees that has to be circled into the budget that's what I'm not I'm not I mean if we decide on a rate and we know how much it's going to cost then M you know what I'm saying um I do I think we definitely would see I mean today we they provided great numbers to see where we are today we should definitely budget for that okay and so then the difference in our head um City staff proposes a budget to us and to me they've done a lot of the leg work that those options that were given we can see okay I got you which one would be best and then my other question was is it right that uh a six months vested or or immediately has to match when the employer contributions begin okay if if the council wants to change that section it should align um so mayor I think based on what I'm hearing the council discussed maybe this is a good proposal um if the council could make um um a consensus about that section about the six-month probationary that's when you're invested and that's when employer contributions start that can give us the direction to amend this resolution and bring it back in June by that time you will have had the second CIP meeting and you can decide what you want to do with the rates in the resolution in June okay so not what what amount we would budget to pay but when they would become vested that's would be that's the direction tonight yeah recommendation is six months well also that and currently it's a fiveyear tiered vesting and the recommendation from Jeremy was at since it was low hanging fruit was to remove that altogether cuz most places have removed that and he was talking about the forfeiture account where it was only like $4,000 on average a year yeah so change that whole year tier thing to just at 6 months your probation's over if you've made it you're vested but along with that comes and that's when the employer contributions start so if if that's the consensus of council we can amend this resolution to make that cleared up that on that point and at the current rate what is the impact of that Financial to bring It Forward six months yes they had done it on the 57 employees but they didn't just or Jeremy didn't refigure it we could get that number okay we could put that in to the next time you see it yeah because it's hard for me to vote when there's a number regarding it and I don't know and who knows how many new employees we're going to get in the next six months too exactly we've had several leave that were at the higher salary levels so but it gives us a baseline you know it would give us a baseline on making that decision yeah mayor we can we can take a stab at getting that number based on our vacancies assuming they get all get filled and uh so if that's consensus we'll clarify that that item in section one to 6 months and employer contributions begin we'll bring back this item in June clarified but also we'll take a stab at the number of what that impact of moving forward six months would be that would be great I think and then we will approve the resolution or amend or do do whatever you want with it okay that does that sound good Council great thank you good Natalie yeah thank you mayor thank you city clerk was that the consent did you get what you needed it was kind of long and I'll help you with the minutes okay great so uh thank you all thank yes sir thank you we are now complete with items for Action we move now on to items for discussion we have three items uh excuse me we have I guess four now uh with the addition um Council we're at 7:40 p.m. how about a break and come back and try to knock these discussion items out sounds good it sound okay okay okay let's try to reconvene it uh what do we want 1015 10's good 10 750 let's come back thank you e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay we ready all right we good all righty everyone call the meeting back to order it is 7:53 p.m. and uh we had just finished up the items for Action five items five and six we are now on to items for discussion item number seven uh the first one is discussion regarding resolution 2022 28 submitted by council member Davis council member Davis the floor is yours yes back in uh I believe December 2022 we this Council decided to sign this resolution which would allow meetings to be short and more effective so I've decided to put this on the as a um a refresher and a reminder because due to the length of our meetings our and our special meetings that we are not following these rules and uh we all agreed to do it we've all signed them and we need to follow them because people are getting very upset for the length of the meetings it's costly as well and people are feeling that council is UNP prepared when we have to go that long with this amount of count U questions so I'm going to go over some of the key points and then I have a couple questions I'm going to ask of council at the end um so with on resolution 20222 um on the meeting we agreed that be keah holding shorter more effective meetings to um basically need to make an to need to take a more effective role in holding each other accountable for time manager practices applying the established rules of conduct Robert's rules of conduct code of conduct and we would need to greatly reduce the length of our meetings so if you look at item if you look at number one note the type and purpose of the meetings and prepared um I've talked to several people again who are getting very frustrated with the length of our meetings this includes people that are here in the audience that have a item on the agenda or people are here just to watch or people that are watching at home so if you look at the application it just says knowledge and preparation of the meeting is key in limiting discussion times and um that you know if you have the questions you should research and do study in the city manager to facilitate by meeting one-on-one with council members is available for questions needed I'm going to do this quick so I don't take much time deviation from set agenda time and management is key excuse me key is to to Shorter effective meetings holding each other accountable to release lengthy discussions is a responsible of each coun council member and unscheduled items added on there should be no deviation from the agenda and um let's see pulling topics from the consent agenda for minimal discussion can add time to the meetings so in the uh several of the past meetings there have been items um added on and that's this I know I can only speak for myself but it catches staff and Council offg guard and it it just makes that we don't have the time to prepare so any add-ons I don't think is productive for the meetings because other council member can't or city manager can't effectively you know discuss the topic um again uh I'm going to go to number four decisiveness we should be clear well stated direction to move the item forward and it just says an in indecisiveness creates unclear causes confusion excuse me creates unclear direction causes confusion and can result in negative Financial impact so um one thing that I have found and um I don't know what other Council feels but I know when we're trying to get a consensus sometimes I don't know that I've necessarily agreed or shake or done my head and then we've got a consensus so I think each Council I would prefer to verbally say that we can have a consensus or I consent to it and that would help city clerk to verify with with what it you know that we all are approving then we don't need a motion um more information needed if you can you find this is number six page three if Council finds it cannot move forward on an agenda item because of a question that cannot be answered at the time um and they need additional move information before being able to vote on the agenda they have two options to move to request the item to return to council at a f future meeting or to move to schedule a workshop so here some the cause of some of our meetings going on and on is that we spend a lot of time with questions that um technically could be answered by meeting with your uh city manager or city staff and the people that I've talked to said that they are not impressed with the time that it's spent asking the questions and that they feel that it looks like council is unprepared and that they you know that they should have followed through or followed up with staff and city manager and so any Council can ask late revealed critical information it says council members knowledge of having knowledge of critical information new unexpected unanticipated and very important information should make sure every effort in this information communicated to the city manager well before for the meeting um by this is um let me see what I say it's critical um information is when critical information is late revealed during a council meeting that should have been brought up beforehand it can cause the impression of not being transparent leave the city manager unprepared to have an individual present to individual present to respond to late revealed information delays responses to a future meeting Le Lees a city manager staff and councel at council at a disadvantage and leave Council and staff to feel undermined and eroded public trust I know for myself when something like this has been added on or included that I feel that uh I am not you know I don't have the chance to be prepared I'm caught off guard I don't know how other council members feel but um I don't I I honestly feel sometimes that we're being ambushed by the information being added on and some this has been occurring at a regular basis so I feel that that's not acceptable to do that to staff and to other council members number nine discussions ending or discussions ending discussions it says Council should be mindful and respectful of all attendance and should avoid time consuming excuse me and unproductive dialogue reinstating the same information repeatly impairs the audience's level of Engagement may cause frustrated audience members to leave early at can provoke disorderly Behavior council members are free to express their individual opinions and be persuasive without attempting to wear down previously stated positions as this Behavior can consider bullying threatening uh and extends the length of the meetings so we can do a Robert's Rule and call the question and if you and anyone that wishes to end the debate they can call Robert's Rule and they it has to be second but you know the council always talks about spinning this the tax payers money if you think about it how expensive is it to the city for to have the long meetings whether it's a special meeting a workshop or meetings that go late I've checked with a u with staff and it costs approximately $400 an hour so if you think of a six-hour special meeting that we've had that's $2,400 that it costs for that night it's if we go additional eight hour excuse me two hours that's 800 $800 that we're adding so not see much at first but when you add it all up that you know that's a lot for the city to have to take on because we're not prepared and we're asking you know we're we're take our discussions are on and on let's see and the question I have is an option to shorten the meetings you can follow Robert's Rule rules 48 or excuse me 43.8 maximum time for each person to speak this would alleviate members asking repetitive questions and repeating the same information over and over Roberts rule states that a member can speak no longer than 10 minutes unless he obtains consent or a motion to extend limited or limits of debate to 15 minutes which requires a two3 vote without debate so um that's something I would like to consider I will you know at the end I would like Council to consider what they think is an appropriate time for each one of us to speak and at that time if we're we go over the limits then we need to help hold each other accountable because I we just have to we cannot keep going at six-hour meetings public cannot keep going at six-hour meetings staff cannot keep going at 6our meetings uh one thing I brought I forgot about time we haven't considered the staff the staff doesn't get overtime so they have instead they go home late or they come in early so they're afford to make up for their time so when the the only problem is they're gone during regular business hours so if the public wants to ask questions other staff members want to ask questions city manager wants to we want to they're not available because they're taking the time off because they they have overtime so that creates a problem in itself one thing um I mentioned earlier information only topics information information only on the agenda are not for discussion and um we should refrain any di any dialogue on information items and this is oh excuse me this is the one I went over and acceptance individual current me or current council members should accept actions taken by the body Council Members may agree with those actions pass or present but one vote carries it should be respected and if you look at the application although new IDE can emerge formal decisions are final and further bait is unproductive the concept equally applies to voluntary uh advisory boards Council has the OB option to accept modify or reject Council board recommendations however Council should trust that boards have done all their due diligence so my question to the council is do we feel what is the appropriate time we feel for everyone to have to speak is it 10 minutes 15 minutes 20 minutes um because speaking for 2 hours 3 hours is not acceptable to the public or I think to staff or personally to me so I'm open to what everybody thinks is acceptable and then after that we should try to hold each other accountable thank you very much for going through that Council this discussion item council member Davis has I think explained it we can't discuss it no go ahead we can't no I'm sorry I was thinking of something else oh that information well I think you were just going over the item 10 information yes sorry that's okay I think I this resolution uh 2022 28 we've all I'm sorry just one that you went through which was was helpful but when you started talking about the time limit M um is that in here did you reference are you you said Robert's Rules of Order yes are you referencing I'm referencing that wasn't in the resolution I don't think uh well if you look at the resolution um it does say um uh let me look let me find it the workshop okay see holding each other accountable for management profit in many cases applying the already established Ro Roberts rules of of order and code of conduct so what page was that on council member Davis is that uh that's the front of the resolution 2022 d 28 the we not it's right after all the signatures I believe so it's right uh so it's in the exhibit a attachment of the resolution no it is um let me see because I have it separate it is yes right that's your second page there is the agenda item and the next page so it would be one of two is what it say States okay okay I see one of two resolution of the resol our signatures okay so it's the first page of the resolution got it um and I found it it's in that third whereas paragraph uh applying in many cases already applying the established Roberts Rules of Order so we just need to decide if we're going to apply some rule Robert's Rule says 10 minutes and you're only allowed let's see maximum member obtaining having obtained the floor while this debatable motion is immediately pending can speak no longer than 10 minutes unless he obtains the consent of the assembly such permission can be given by unanimous consent or by a motion to extend of of of debate which requires a 2third vote and I mean you can go into it that they're saying you can only speak twice there's several different things we're talking in Robert's Rules 43 I guess well it pretty much starts at 434 but it goes into all the different rules Okay so we've thank you it we use Robert's Rules of Order this we have I think some discrep on we've talked about this in the past as well I want to hear from the council and one of the things I do like about Robert's Rules of Order which guilty I've done is giving everyone a chance to talk at least one time before the second person so with that I've spoke anybody else like to speak on this item no particular order I'm scared I I understand um roer of order and trying to go along with the uh with the conduct so that you have effective meetings so I I am curious though would we prefer to just move things that require discussion to workshops because workshops give you the ability to send be there during the day and discuss what needs to be discussed to get the issues that you need to get resolved taken care of without impacting staff time and I literally had a workshop and that was one of the things I got dinged for but it staff time was really they were busy at that time so where if Council decides that we don't want to discuss or ask questions here then that's just going to I would see that as increasing our number of workshops and things like that to be able to get business done because as everyone knows with Sunshine laws this is our place to get business done it's our place to discuss and ask questions I'm not oh excuse me are you done I'm not saying not be able to ask questions but when we sit here five hours six-hour meetings it and we're asking over and over the same question instead of doing that we should move it forward to the next meeting and go to staff go to city manager or go to whoever you need to to get the answers because we're sitting here for hours on hours trying to get answers from staff that we could have gotten before so I'm not saying don't ask questions don't be afraid of that I'm not trying to say don't ask questions I'm just saying don't be repetitive and yes there will be items that come up or topics that come up during Council meetings but there is also items that you could ask I'm not I'm not picking on you I'm looking at you but I'm not picking on you we could ask city manager or staff before we could have all those answers before we come and if something comes up then that's fine we we have sure certainly entitled to qu ask questions thing about workshops again think of the money you know we can't just have six oh it's a workshop so we're going to go six or eight hours for a workshop I mean we still have to have effective meetings for workshops and we still have to be considerate to the you know the cost of all these meetings and what money are you talking about for a workshop when you have whomever is recording and and the clerk and that's literally all you have to have for a workshop from what I understand and I may be wrong if I'm wrong um City attorney correct me uh I want to do what needs to be done but we I'm and I'm new at this so I'm the one that's jumping out here saying these things uh but I mean we have to get business done for our citizens and if it takes extra time it takes extra time unfortunately I go to I go to staff and ask my questions beforehand I do research I come in with notes I look at everything I read everything um so I I appreciate what you're saying because I'm taking the time to do that um but there are some things that maybe brought out during discussion that I'm not aware of and I might ask a question that's what I'm saying there's no problem doing that but when we're sitting here I mean I don't know 6- hour meetings are not appropriate they're just it it's t the staff is it's a hard on the staff it's hard on us it's hard on the citizens to sit there so I'm what I'm saying is if you have that many questions from what is being said is we should move it forward so you can get those questions answered and then at the next meeting address them but if you have that many questions that we have to spend two to three hours to to discuss it then obviously we're doing something wrong and to the city or citizens the ones that I have talked to we look unprepared we they think we're not doing our homework because we have so many questions and I don't want to I don't want to look like I'm unprepared I'm prepared when I come in here I'm not saying I'm sure everyone is prepared when they come in here but six-hour meetings is not acceptable and we have to find a way to shorten them is all I'm saying you council member Willis or well I think um I mean I agree we need to shorten our meetings we need to be more accountable to the public and and uh be timely um I think if we each come in here with preparation on each item to speak for five minutes and we we are concise in what we're saying and we know what we're asking for and we limit oursel to five minutes initially now again to your point council member uh Jackson sometimes new ideas come up uh you hear from other council members and you suddenly have a new way of looking at it or a new question or you're you just haven't thought of it in that in that vein so you have to you have to be able to move and be somewhat organic with it because this is our only shot we can't walk outside and discuss it later um but I think if we each come in prepared to speak on limit oursel to 5 minutes initially and then we can go back and forth and banter after that and I've taken two and a half so I'll [Music] yield anything um yeah I just I agree with councilman Wills this is this is the time we get to speak to each other and you know we all have different ideas or different ways of looking at things um I agree that meetings run too long um sometimes maybe we need to consider if there's a lot on the agenda of having two meetings in a month um you know uh I just think that you know there's important things that come up that needed to be discussed um again I agree that the meetings are too long but um this is the only chance we have to talk to each other so you know if we start out with a 5 minute uh time and but then you could come back to you know Listen to Everybody then come back um so it would be a real discussion thing so that's what my thoughts I agree with that but when we come back to discuss what maybe you said or another council member had said to discuss it I think it should be another like five or 10 we shouldn't be able to do that for hours you know it it needs to be precise and limited our meetings need to be shorter and we cannot go over and repeat constantly repeat the same thing so um yeah so I'm open to suggestions on how to shorten the meetings I'm not saying no you cannot ask questions I'm definitely things come up during meetings that we need to discuss I'm just saying we need to be aware of the public and the staff and personally it's hard on me sitting here 6 hours you know I don't know how everybody else feels but it's hard you know so I think we need to have some consideration and not speak forever make our point and then go from there thank you uh my comments are I don't like uh long meetings uh we we've had them I think we've had two at the sixh hour point in my seven years um could be wrong by one or two but depends on how you're measuring the meeting a lot of times it'll be a CRA like today we've been here since 5:00 but it was two separate meetings we've been a little over two hours for the regular meeting but agreed just the duration and the science I read is you're our brains in in in four and F hours four five six after a full day after everyone um our city staff I certainly have sympathy for for them it's worse than I mean I've actually got I live here and go home and they've been here all day so I know they're exhausted they're ready to go to their homes not to mention the next day they're back here on a Wednesday middle of the week and that that that that can be tough I don't want to continue to do those I don't think anyone's trying um as far as perception on preparedness um I don't know if if you're just sharing public perception but if anyone up here doesn't think you know we're prepared I've I've tried to State when I was not prepared and usually ask for more time but um from what I can see is uh we are prepared um and I think there is some good in in verbally stating hey everyone go through the first comments let's make sure that prioritize giving every want a chance to speak in in a short period of time but knowing just like council member Davis you explaining this agenda item took you longer than 10 minutes I think few but I I don't I think the pressure to try to get it done concise is a good thing but I also don't want to limit and and and let that get in the way of you know what needs to be said and sometimes uh it's really hard and I've my person I'll speak for myself I've done that process council member Davis I've asked those questions to City staff I've worked through issues and there's been in the recent some times where I I did not have another place to go I know what it's like to to deal with a lot of information in short period cuz that's really what one of the things you're talking about is when you don't let staff know ahead of time something and you bring that up right Ambush I think is the word you used I I'm saying my personal feelings well I've heard that around here so I I think for for anyone listening on a feeling of Ambush I know that feeling I've been ambushed we all walked into the the the last City meeting with less than 24 hours notice a full report I didn't feel prepared in that meeting and how could any of us have been prepared and and am I upset about that no I believe our city manager worked as hard as he could he got it done when he did but we rolled with it and we did it and and and that's okay but I was standing this weekend on Filmore Avenue in Orange a gentleman was sitting outside he opened his front door and while I wouldn't say on the record the uh swearing that I heard but he didn't have nice things to say to me and he said I am wet and he had water coming through his tile floor on Orange Avenue and Filmore or and Johnson excuse me orange and Johnson and when we look at these lengthier meetings I'm not looking at how fast we can get done I'm looking at how we can fix these issues and I take my story and process on every issue what did I do what were the steps that were taken and it's there are times where I've brought things up two reasons I don't have a lot things come up especially the day of the meeting very fast and we don't have the time to sit down with the city manager and so that's one reason it doesn't come up the other reason is it's it's regarding issues with our city staff that I want to overcome and that's not a pro that we are the only body that can fix that and I would challenge anyone to say find something that I brought up that I was not trying to work through prior and I would agree with you we always try to do that and I've spoke to our city manager about this but we've got some we do got a lengthy meeting issue but we got bigger issues with people having water come into their house and a whole lot of other issues on Public Safety around the January 24th special meeting and I know that's going to take time but if you look at Cape Canaveral and compared to other cities one meeting for three four five six hours is no different than two meetings for you know two three four or two one two three hours and most cities that that I've see they meet twice a month so total time in a month we've talked about this in the past they're putting in just as much time what I like about that is they don't get to those you know four and five hour points because they break it up and I like some of the idea I think we should talk about ways whether it be workshopped we've talked about you know putting a lot of the presentations and the things all together the proclamations the exciting stuff that does that's a more positive meeting that we celebrate our community and then hey we're going to get it's the business of the city but we know that this stuff is going to take a different uh train of thought and so I'm not for putting uh time limits on on any of us um but I do like the idea of just verbally trying to stay under if it's five minutes uh as a verbal goal to say hey F let's try to let everyone talk once and that's where that's where it is with me I don't I'm not I'm I'm prepared I learn new stuff every day we're all prepared I'm not I don't think we need to defend that to the public if that's what we're hearing um and when you really dig in and you look at all the steps that I've taken I think I will sit down with any citizen and go what would you do if you were in my circumstance and I don't I'm I do not know if anyone that I've talked to that would not have agreed to spend the time we need on some of these serious issues but in the gaps of the serious ones yes I I am I in agreement we can always improve and try to get better I remember passing this resolution um and I think that right now we've got we've got a lot of challenging issues in in front of us and we've just got got it down to just a couple in a specific area that I really I think we're going to need more time on these issues and though we have a process for adding things onto the agenda um I think our our code uh governs that and and I think we follow it um I know what it's like final thing is I know what it's like to walk into the meeting and have an add-on agenda item that happened in the former city manager separation agreement I didn't hear which was really really I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt you but I didn't hear the first part you were saying there is no problem what did you say about add-ons I didn't hear you um add-on agenda items yeah uh I said we have a procedure to follow for add-on agenda items I think in our code um we've also and and I think the cases where that happened it's happened a couple of different ways one it was getting consensus early to to move forward with it uh the other one was during reports which is something I've been advised by our City attorney to say hey during reports you can bring stuff up um those things aren't intentional and the last thing I'll say well I the the city manager I I I walked into a meeting with an add-on agenda item that that was so it was extremely stressful it did not make any sense and to this day I still uh look at that is exactly what we don't need and those are good examples of add-on agenda items that we but we took action and so a lot of these things for add-ons we're actually not even taking action if you add it on and you take action yeah I think that the public I've been a big Champion for public uh access and information and the the time limits um if it's really about time I meet with a oneon-one with our city manager all of us do you're saying that's the time to to to get your questions answered and any time before the meeting you can Circle back and schedule a meeting if he meets with us each for two hours that's 10 total hours why don't we just have that meeting one time with our city manager here on the reserved dates that we already have in the schedule he doesn't got to say it five different times he gets all of his time back he does it right here on the public in front of everyone and he goes here's the agenda guys no action today we go right through the agenda and we go great follow up with any one-on-one questions if you choose but we're done we're prepped the community's prepped I've thought about that as an idea to say wow that took Todd's time in that scenario of 10 hours down to two 8 hours he got a whole day back and so there's there's many there's many ways we can fix this and I think uh I don't want another longer meaning but I think these issues are valid and until they get fixed I I mean when they get fixed I think I think meetings will get shorter but it is one meeting a month I agree they go too long I I don't know what else to do meet 12 times a year usually a minimum and these issues have been going on for years that started and and unfortunately we weren't able to resolve them and it's it's at the council level so this has been brought up a lot this issue right here was a resolution it was brought up several times by former council member and I've never been a fan of limiting the time of duly elected officials public um if we're going to do anything with public comment I would be in favor of of increasing it uh under certain circumstances so I wasn't talking public com but as far as deviation from a set agenda unless Council formally approves a critical unscheduled add-on item there should be no deviation from the agenda there are item there are times that items have been added on that we did not approve we did not take a vote we don't have we didn't have consensus and they were added on so that's something I think we need to discuss as far as the meetings with the manage city manager I mean I discuss things with the city manager about different items or whatever how I personally feel there may I may not want to do that in front of you I like my one-on-one that's in private I can ask them different questions that I feel is necessary I I so I'm against having um a whole everybody present at the same time and as far as you know I mean we signed this we agreed to this and we have to follow this I'm I think that if items are going on too long then we should agree that we are going to make a motion to move it forward to the next meet at the next meeting and that way we can get the questions that we obviously have and are continuing to ask answered and that way we can come with the our our questions answered and ready to speak about it at the next meeting so is there any uh action that you want to make a motion honor propose I just want everybody to be aware and refresh everybody that this is what we've signed and this is what we need to agree to and we need to find a way to have our meeting shorter thank you council member Jackson or anyone I have one more question um as someone knew on the last page of the um resolution exhibit a page five under application things like this I'm I'm so much of a detail oriented person this drives me insane um although new ideas can emerge in time formal decisions are final and further debate is unproductive which that's fine the concept equally applies to the volunteer advisory boards Council has the option to accept modify or reject board recommendations however and from what my understanding is those boards serve at the pleasure of council and so it has however councils should trust that the boards have done their due diligence and accept their efforts where is this the last page of that item 11 acceptance yeah now all of that I'm I'm good with I'm good with the you should trust that they've done their due diligence but is it not council's respons ability since they serve at our pleasure that you always question the we should always ensure that the efforts are aligned with what we want as a council not just accept someone's effort because they've done their due diligence we should just like we've seen tonight with defining the process with um board appointments you know we have a responsibility to our citizens to ensure that the things that are under us as far as Ser you know serving at our pleasure are being done the way that the council feels is correct so things like that wording trips me up um I appreciate going through this Kim it's good it's good to learn what's in here um but I also come from the world where we're fixing things that are broken a lot of times in our in our world in business and so where we want to cut back on the amount of time I'm almost in agreement with Micky that it's time if that's the case then it's time to break this up into two meetings a month so that we have the opportunity to discuss what's needed without having to Simply go by something that is on paper when there's so much to do we have a responsibility to our citizens thank you it would give a shorter meeting but you just have two and that's what I'm saying take it easy on ourselves I'm not excusing six-hour meetings that's bad that that we four is about where I think we start and that was I think the intent right it was not it was six well I don't yeah I think 6 to 10 is is what we strive for so today just by the idea of putting a CRA meeting before sort of breaks our we're we're we're compromising these discussion items and also we usually put very emotional things that we care about such as this and we're always at the end of the agenda and so uh my only concern about two meetings a month is that we'll go back back to six hours for each meeting you know if we can't we can't follow the resolution it's not going to do us any good to have a second meeting because we're going to go right at 6 hours if we can guarantee we have two meetings a month and it goes four hours that's fine but we can't guarantee that it's going to just because we have two meetings they're still going to both go six hours each time so I think we just have to conduct conduct ourselves properly City attorney is there this resolution what it we I guess police ourselves on this one uh but when because we created the resolution if there was any any issue or quote unquote violation of the resolution is that something that's is it binding I think it's intended to be guidance right for the for the for the city council to follow um okay I mean I think that's about all it is it's not this you know if you didn't follow it like our code like code of conduct I think that was God a or um it does say in here if you look at it um and holding each other accountable for time management practices and many cases applying the already established Roberts rules code of conduct uh will greatly reduced so yes it doesn't it does says code of conduct in here thank you okay what do we want to do anything else I'm fine with I just want everybody to be aware of it be ious of it so that we can hopefully not have these long [Music] meetings thank you mayor yes I would just like to um say I I like the idea of us all meeting with Todd at the same time to discuss the agenda um and I think like uh councilman Davis said you know she has things she wants to talk to him about well maybe your questions are the same as my questions and we could get them all answered at one time and that would when it came time to go to the meeting it would speed things up and if you privately wanted to talk to him about something then you could also meet with him privately can we ask Todd how he feels about that it'd be a Sunshine Law publicly advertised meeting just call it agenda preparation meeting no no action uh I know that other cities have done similar things like that um and and it can be used to to good effect um but I think council member Davis has another good point that there are times that that format would not allow somebody to perhaps share everything that they're thinking um May it may put possibly a little chilling effect on certain ideas they might want to discuss maybe they're embarrassed to bring up this idea publicly for example you know maybe they might feel stupid if they ask this question kind of a thing um and and that's part of the the nice thing about the way we have it now is anybody we can talk about anything we we all do that we we share stories we we move on to we go down rabbit holes we ask dumb questions of each other and and I think you just would lose some of that freedom during those meetings um just to for the record um Lisa you typically set up one-hour meetings for the one-on ones is that correct yeah um one hour so so there's five hours a month not not eight you and I you and I typically go longer it is we have longer prep meetings too so that's know it it just they tend to go I you're over an hour from time to time or are you always no I'm over an hour over now I'm usually over now I and we've had 30 minute meetings like it except Kim's behind me so I always have to I'm knocking on the door yeah I have to rush because she's wanting in so so mine's kind of short well that was with the financial guy when we were going over it was with him oh I I don't knock on the door I knocked on the door with the audit yeah followed several meting questions though could still you'd still have an outlet to ask those yeah and I think if we're learning together and this feeling of you know may Pro Tim Kellum fully got it and understood it in their prep but maybe I I didn't get it right but there is I think and my stupid question could be the same as your stupid question that next yes that next meeting though I mean we really do hit the ground running if we if we if we're prepped and I think you still could have you know a one-on-one for technical or things that maybe you didn't know but it would be it on an as needed basis I mean I I don't think an individual council member whether it be meeting prep or any issue in the city we always can meet oneon-one and uh I think I'd be interesting to learn what other cities were doing it Todd I think you had mentioned do you know anyone in Bard County I can bring it up the city manager group and okay see if that's effective and how they feel about it another consideration is everybody's schedule you know Lisa goes and she she appoints our meetings by when I work when you work when you're available and everybody has a certain time frame that works for them so to get everybody at once and then to take time to have to go back to Todd on oneon-one because I didn't feel comfortable asking this question or for whatever reason that's another time away that Lisa's got a schedule with my schedule whatever I I I don't agree with everybody all at once okay I like that but we've discussed it enough we can move forward yeah let's do that um this resolution I appreciate I was actually looking for this and I actually forgot I thought it was like a separate it was a resolution um in a regular meeting in a packet so um I do think we we should go through it again and make it you know changes or emphasis on anything that we we need um any other discussion okay seeing none we'll go ahead and move on to the next agenda item um I'm sorry uh public comment I thought this was the one from earlier come on forward I'm very sorry and I'll check since we're Council we're okay with Mr Campbell if anybody online who's listening wants to please raise your hand Mr Campbell is going to come forward with public comment we will open it up to you as well to be sure um Mr Campbell gu one card for each item um so I brought this with me it out I didn't write it down as you were speaking oh because many of the things that you talked about I had written down Rober rules compelling uh but it does bring a question to my mind because going to be the police for rules um what I want to come up and talk about is one I'm interested in your decision much more interested in how you and vote I want to hear the discussion I want to know what led you to believe that how you came to that conclusion about legalities of it because of something that happened in these one-on ones um I would must prefer you don't have one-on ones that any discussion that you're going to have that will lead you to a decision is done uh in the sunshine and if that means you all get together and have a second meeting I even wrote down workshop could you have a workshop that prepares for the agenda okay which is what you should be doing uh I don't I don't want this to devolve to the point that the uh meeting time is more important than the discussion because it is not the discussion is the most important thing uh equally important to the discussion is doing it in front of your citizens okay um I want to know how you got there I want to know what was in your head when you when you made that decision I want to hear that dialogue I want to see the process working um my opinion this is just my opinion things like oneon-one C certainly create the perception that Puna Gordon's dealing with right now um that those meetings are intended to influence Council decisions before you come in front front of the citizens um it eliminates any possibility that me a citizen can find out what was discussed on those one on ones uh when in fact if you're discussing City business I want to be able to see it I want to be able to recover it um and I spend a lot of time looking at those kinds of things because it it's important to me and it's important to our city so don't let this evolve into reducing discussion to make make a time frame the time frame is not the the issue thank you thank you okay and sorry again about that I do see you did Mark number seven here and I think if there's anybody else that' like to speak please raise your hand or come forward seeing none online I do not see any hands raised we'll go ahead and bring it back to the council close public comment for that discussion item council member Davis I believe wanted a refresher and propose some ideas I think we got through that good to go we can move on y all right so uh number eight here uh discuss possible changes to permitting due to hardship on condos during insuring process re recoding investigation scarification submitted by council member Jackson the floor is yours thank you um in a prior meeting we had discussed roof recoding and the new surge report requirements for Condominiums as well as the fact that Condominiums are getting hit very hard on insurance and it is not required by the state for roofs that have been recoded to get permitted insurance companies are using that as an excuse to say they've done nothing to their roof when they may have a warranty so this is a followup to that discussion I met with um Mr Dicky as well as um our City attorney and Mr prommer we have multiple people from that department on and we all discuss the ability to potentially do an administrative type of um code where we would require a permit on a cated roof uh often times the coded roofs are flat roofs and I was to get information from that call follow up and get information from the insurance companies so the one that I was able to um get through to was citizens and and so insurance companies can now offer this is an update on what's going on with the roof recoding and roof warranties insurance companies can now offer policies that pay out the actual cash value for the roofs over 10 years old rather than the cost of a full replacement and that minimizes the amount of insurance that may um insurance cost for condos and homeowners homeowners can also opt for a policy with a state value limit for roof coverage and insurers may use a roof surface reimbursement schedule for roofs over 10 years old so it says to make sure and consult with your insurance company with citizens it has updated its roof rules to comply with legislative changes enacted by Senate Bill 2D and the key points on these are uh determining the remaining useful life risks that don't me roof replacement eligibility requirements may still be eligible for coverage if they have 5 years of remaining useful life the previous amount for that was three years so if a condo complex has five remaining years of life and a 10year warranty because these vendors will sell a warranty longer than the remaining use on the live they still at least could end up with five years to fund their reserves for that roof so that can help them it gives them a little bit buys them a little bit of extra time um age consideration when only part of a roof is replaced the roof age determined on the oldest section the coverage extensions for qualifying rofs the coverage can be extended for up to 5 years even if the inspection shows greater remaining useful life and then they have a condition rule related to excess patched areas which has been revised at the state level so there are changes that are going on in regards to Roofing and with citizens current Insurance roof policies regarding recoding um it says an underwriter May extend the remaining useful life to 1 to three years on buildings with coding updates so if a condo complex got a roof recoded that would give them 3 years to fund that Reserve which could be helpful especially with all the surge requirements going on um and it says not maintenance roof require roof coatings such as acrylic silic silicone urethane soy elastomeric or other similar Coatings that are typically applied to an existing roof covering for waterproofing or UV protection do not meet citizens requirements for proof of roof covering material replacement and it gives some information on that as far as what's defined um and gives sources so the initial agenda item when we had done this in the prior meeting was do we want to as a council be able to require roof permit in our city to prove that the condo complex have have done something to their roofs that could possibly buy them some time on insurance coverage when Mr Dicky and everyone met with me they didn't indicate and he may want to speak to us on this um they didn't indicate a great a number of these that might occur uh but we don't want to Impact Staff of course but it could definitely help with um our citizens that are in condo complexes and The Surge reports and the Milestone inspections if they have a way to prove that they have provided um something some kind of coding onto their roof so I wanted to bring it to you all let you know what we found out uh Mr Dicky would you like to address it or did I did I give great job okay did I give enough information yeah icy decision city council question we came out of our meeting with Kay was is there a what's the cost benefit here I mean is there a benefit to the property owners to go through this added step of getting a permit and um that was when when Kay went and talked to the insurance companies to see what um allow es they would make for that for that um roof coating or roof covering excuse me so um you know from a staffing perspective as as Kay indicated there's very few of these that happen every year relatively speaking um and so I think from a staff perspective we could we could certainly accommodate a new permit process for that um these products all come out with specs installation specs from the manufacturer so we would just be we would be inspecting that the installation was consistent with these manufactured specs now we may or may not have the expertise on staff to um um inspect these uh installation um requirements um if not a simple solution would be just to get a third party provider to come in and and certify the installation so there's there's workarounds and there's ways we can deal with things but but that would really be the only issue from a staffing perspective is do we have the the expertise to determine whether the rolled on the excuse me the um roof codings are are properly installed but if that's the council's wish we'd be happy to do that um I think it would be a nominal inspection fee um and um yeah I have a question you Dave is that something that the city engineer I mean kiml and Horn is our engineer would they have someone on staff that would be able to yeah I I mean I think it would take some special equipment because there's a there's a thickness requirement that's that's um that's that's uh that comes along with the installation process for these for these materials so yeah I I would assume that the city engineer would be able to to assist with that I haven't specifically asked them that question so so we' need to we' need to dig into that but but um but there there there is I'm sure there's equipment that would need to be purchased um and whether they have that or not I don't know but um yeah thank you yes Mr Mayor yes council member Willis um at at the last council meeting W weren't we going to be querying the Florida uh building code on this we did and it's not part of the billing code for recoding okay um and scarification is they'll give you a permit I mean they'll give you insurance if you do that because you're removing the part the portion of the roof and just in regards to your comment about inspection um citizen citizen said that um the roof condition would be validated with the roof inspection performance by a licensed roofer a general contractor so that might be part of the process that we might want to look at adopting potentially including required photographs of the entire roof and surface line yeah yeah Anthony might be better prepared to respond but there are sign there are important differences between roof coatings and roof coverings um and and and within the Florida building code so one requires a one doesn't but currently and this is to give a path for the roof coating at least is that that's correct and and so um yeah cuz it's like a a liquid silicone the the EPDM the white it's like rolling paint the thick and um it will give the insurance company Comfort is that the well it will give the insurance company who who have now due to the legislation at the state level level is required to extend the um the consideration of the roof having been recoded from three years to five years so that gives our associations more time to fund their roof reserves and not be in such a pinch to fund their surge report immediately if they wanted to handle a temporary fix in order to help their their reserves so um and it says for roof replay whether uh re roof complete full roof recovering removal and replacement or onetime recovering there's existing information you can get and of course we talk about going to underwriting but they literally just went in and added the recoding into that legislation which is as I said Senate Bill D2 um on recoded roofs so they're trying to address it um but what we've been seeing in our area is insurance companies saying oh well we don't count that and there's no permit so if we get ahead of this the process and provide them if it's not an a burden to Mr Dicky's group then that may help some of our residents in the area but well if it's condos that's probably over 50% of the residents live I mean when you add them up it's that's a number but it's it's High um I think if our City attorney uh wants to look at this in between now and I don't know if there's like a crunch time or if there's issue of but he comes back with something if it could work to make it easier to get uh the roof coating um approved certified warranteed you know it's just I think brings an official document that this was inspected by a or permitted right what other did any other cities maybe uh I'll stop I think I don't want to lose the the goal that you would hope but to make the permitting process easier I think David says we can look at that and and David the the I mean the issue for Council is whether or not the city wants to impose a permit building permit requirement for uh roof uh coding under the Florida building code um the current Florida building code roof coverings require a permit roof codings on the other hand do not require a permit so I think what what the councilwoman is is saying that perhaps in some circumstances which are totally outside of the city's control the underwriter for an insurance company might extend the life of the of a of a roof for insurance purposes if you have a roof cating and that and that makes you know make the make the property insurable that is totally outside the city's control but um the issuance of a city permit May and it's May um have some benefit of demonstrating that um you know the the roof uh coding was was permitted and done but I'm assuming too that underwriting is still going to require probably an in possible inspection they're going to maybe want to see the contract and you know the Contracting information that's a condominium complex you know entered into to to examine what exactly was done on on the roof but um the permit may require may may be a city permit may be of some assistance now um I've looked at it and that would be an administrative Amendment to the city's code and be in my opinion be construed as an administrative Amendment that's per permissible under the Florida building code without having to go through the local um amendment process which is pretty involved um because you're not the city would not be establishing any different technical requirements it's just a a a process a procedure permit requirement which would be an administrative Amendment to the city's administrative um Pro um Provisions in the city's code so the issue for the council is do you would you would you want to go down that route of um doing an ordinance to require a building permit for roof codings that's that's the only issue really that that the council has any control over regarding this underwriting mess that everybody in Florida is involved in so do we want to require a a building perm a permit for roof codings roof coverings because coverings that sounds like already required they're already required um and that decision the council makes uh compared to the do we the administrative section or I guess m this Council need to do any action or are you saying those administrative powers are there this would qualify and he would be able to to to proceed with consensus today well with an ordinance change that still would require ordinance we would add a provision in the administrative section of the city's building code that that states that a permit would be required now of course the consequences of that are property owners are going to need to understand that a building permit is now required when it's it's not technically today and then they would have to apply for the permit then the building official would have to review it issue it and then do an inspection of course right just like they would um for any other building permit and so truly it's it I wanted to bring it to council I was hoping to save condo complexes in our area money on having to come out for huge amounts cuz some of them are coming out $30 to $50,000 assessments and so that's what the thought process was however we as a council have to consider too if that becomes a negative with having another permit and having to go through the inspection process and that sort of thing but it would give people teeth to give to their insurance company if they took that we're not ass sure that they would we couldn't guarantee that they are but it does move along in the same direction as the state bill that's being worked on just taking the Coatings out of it all just the the roof should a roof on any building be inspected after roof coating I think it's a good thing and so just at a minimum uh I get it though I have a question um a lot of there's a lot of mobile homes in our city that that's how they do their roofs with coding would they if we did this would they also need is it any coating on any roof or just condos or I don't know the answer to that technical question whether we can when I checked with the insurance company I was checking with condos but they were talking all roofs any flat roof that needed recoding and they're basically using it as a way to not renew insurance to Triple the rates or whatever on any type of dwelling so that's the information I was given when I spoke to Citizens if we had the permit process it would probably help people that had they can at least prove that prove that they've done it and it was inspected yes I had someone that with Space Coast condominium associ a that did it and their insurance company said oh we don't recognize that we it you haven't touched your roof since 2004 whatever it was when they had had roof work done because it wasn't a permitted process I think it's worth looking at it sounds like the soonest we could do it' be a couple of meetings especially if it's an ordinance change Council any other comments on this to want to look at it we're not approving anything but guess directly I certainly think it's worth looking at U I know with our condominium complex the insurance company required the scarification uh in order to Ure um so I think it might be a a variable with the insurance companies so it may help it certainly can't hurt unless someone just can't afford to pay for the permit and the inspection so but it's going to be applied to every roof uh mobile homes what whatever any flat roof so we've got to consider everybody there I might add mayor um for my time as building official mobile homes and trailers typically regulated by the department of highway and safety motor vehicles and are Exempted from the floor to building code um the only thing that would change is if you're like adding an addition like a porch or screen room onto the side of a that's attached to you know the ground that's that would fall into the floor to building code but generally the things that you do to a mobile home do not fall under the Florida building code because they're superseded by the Department of Highway Safety Motor Vehicles very helpful thank you council member Davis or will anybody else council member Jackson did you get what you accomplished out of this yes thank you or hoped for excuse me uh City's attorney or manager I think you you need anything thing so you just want us to look into this more and possibly propose an ordinance okay yes if it can if it can help um I think just to be clear mayor is is there consensus to draft an ordinance for City counil for roof coding permitting yes I think that's exact L today there's nothing for COD codings we are looking at adding that thank you all right okay great well I think we are now on to the item number uh excuse me nine here attendance uh of the state of Florida's training for Emergency Management Symposium leading From The Trenches Council member Jackson yes I am scheduled for Florida Department of Emergency Management a symposium for elected officials it is in St Augustine Florida between uh June 10th and the 14th and I've signed up for multiple workshops I wanted to discuss whether Council wanted me to bring back the information that I've received and present it to you all um I had discussed this with Todd and he said that may need to be a closed meeting um along with some of our our deputies and that type of thing a security type of meeting um so I've gotten into several um of the workshops and several of the topics in there they are putting this on throughout the state for different cities and so I am going and I wanted to see if y'all were interested in having a meeting and covering my hotel if not I'm going anyway so I'm just let I'm going anyway but um just wanted to let you all [Applause] know I council member Willis please um do you happen to have an agenda of what's going to be covered there's there's I can give it to you um there's different workshops on several of them I'm on um on a wait list uh so for example one of them is these are scary topics um I'm on a wait list for what what to expect when the world ascends I do have cyber security and risk management for emergencies substantial damage assessments and post disaster training um what to expect when the world ascends once again I'm I'm on a wait list for that um de disaster uh toolkit um developing local residential mitigation program uh so there's several there's four days of workshops with this uh Symposium that the State of Florida is doing for different groups now they've also had they had a a session in Viera I was schedule for that but they ended up being completely booked and it was more for our First Responders and then they've had one in Tallahassee for them as well this one is Statewide through the Florida Liga cities it was one of their offerings um when they had a webinar and I I found this interesting because I've done disaster planning in the public utility realm so yes well I just wonder if that might be something we needed to send Zach since he's in charge of our emergency response I think it'd be great for him to I I don't know if don't know offand if he's had any kind of training like that formally or and I'm not sure he'll be able to get in at this point and this one was for elected officials oh okay well but I mean so but what we might do I think is very valid what you're saying councilman Willis is get him with the coordinator because we want to make sure he's in whatever sessions he needs to be in yeah well if they're doing it around the state I I just wonder if there's going to be other opportunities that uh uh we can get him in on I think that's a good idea personally thank okay any other comments on this one I think it's great yeah that and thank you and and thanks to remember Tim Kellum I mean she was one of the ones who brought forward just a reimbursement policy of some sort and City staff and me and everyone worked hard and got it around and I've used it it's worked um really well and I think it's I think we budget you know every year Todd was kind of running through just rough and we're about to get into it but there's as long as there's room in there and I think our city manager and city clerk can let us know the way I look at it is kind of like you know I don't always go to the league of cities event the big convention but it's budgeted if I choose you know those those funds to go to something else is awesome right and and for you to go and report back to the Council on what you learned and how know maybe things we can do and I absolutely think that um any kind of disaster planning right now is a good thing in the world that we live in um and you know we're so fortunate and blessed because we're nestled between the bases here so we're pretty safe and sound really we have a lot of great U military folks watching out for us but I think that it it is only to our benefit as long as we keep ourselves in a situation where we're trained and ready to go in case of anything uh one thing that I believe the city manager had asked and I think this is a great question as well is has bravard County done any of these because there have been a lot of other counties that have Orange County has that I'm aware of and that kind of thing so I think the more that we can learn in our world today the better we are and I think the uh council member Willis's idea of making sure that Zach is in the correct ones as well for emergency management that's great yeah or whoever is appropriate in my experience attending Lagoon events um Zach Lexi I think I don't know if a city but anytime we have a a city staff member there who's that's their day-to-day Focus or a part it it's just so much better for for us for the city as a whole and I think it really comes down to Todd's priorities and whether or not you think I think there's times it makes sense to you ultimately he he can decide and I think you have and it's worked out do you need consensus of some sort I just want to repeat what I hear as consensus is the council has agreed um we're happy to fund the hotel and the pdms because it's it's in the budget to do to attend for council member Jackson to attend this what I'm not clear on is U the security training what's the consensus on that no I was just reading off some of the things that I'm signed up there's literally a entire Workshop uh with different topics and boy you have to get into them and a lot of them have weight list so I've got the ones that I've gotten into and ones I've gotten weight listed I'm going to be calling the State of Florida on a couple that have high demand to see if they can give a second Workshop topic for or time for that I was referring to security training for Council and staff oh I'm sorry I'm sorry city manager it it is getting L Kim see what happens um so that was for me to come back and present what I've the materials I've gotten and what I've learned to council so that we are prepared and in line with what's going on with this state initiative mayor yes' maybe um is would it it wouldn't really be training you'd be reporting back to council yes thank you all right so consensus is to report back to Council in a format to be determined yes that would be just from a the whole public transparency that is really nice to say hey went to this event and I'm going to bring it back to the community here's what I learned when appropriate and and if helpful so yes thank you thank you that was it and thank you for bringing that forward I think it's uh old Council M Willis brought one I think it was Lagoon or something but these these there's a lot we get invited to and you know dividing in conquering is really helpful when we bring it back so thank you thank you anything else Council on this one ccil member Jackson you're good I'm good thank you okay so that that was item number nine item number 11 was moved up I guess to be the new 10 but we'll just take item number 11 next um council member Jackson I know you you had I have some questions but I think you wanted to pull too and you wanted to get an update or I can't recall what you said but yes there were two things I'm still curious about on this number one is the rebar that was sticking up in Florida Power and Light if they've removed it and this is on the Filmore Avenue and then the other thing was the flooding from um from the pavement that was paved over the impervious pavement that was paved over near uh near the Jackson Street location I know that we got an update from Mr Dicky and um I know a notice of violation went out and there were not really any requirements in regards to what was done but since imper since we paved over the the impervious pavement or he did There's flooding issues now that evidently weren't there before is that correct city manager that's how I understand the U the code enforcement complaint um and Dave can correct me if I'm wrong on this but I believe the memo that went out today said that will that will be investigated and applicable sections of city code will be enforced through the code enforcement department related to storm water runoff okay that's what I wanted to make sure I understood because I I wanted to make sure we have some form of action um in regards to this being paved over and causing flooding now because if there if the problem wasn't there before I didn't want whatever is written on paper to create a situation where it just continues on because we don't have it yeah it kind of It kind of evolved into um hey you need to get with St John's on this and they got with St John's and St John says you don't need a permit for us you just have to follow whatever local codes you've got so we're we're left with what local codes do we have that we can apply to this and that's going to be the subject of the the next phase of that code enforcement inves tigation okay and as far as the rebar goes Dave correct me if I'm wrong I believe FPL said that that was not their responsibility um and they noted that it was there prior also um the city staff did go out and put cones out there um maybe some caution tape am I correct about that too uh just to kind of make some visibility there okay oh boy that makes it fun because that's usually what's put in to stabilize a telephone pole so I'm fairly shocked that that's not fpl's um have we notified the homeowner that FPL is saying that it okay so this was the topic was this in the update the spreadsheet update that went out okay yeah all right thank you that's what I had thank you anyone else uh this time on this item I do have some council member Willis Davis Tim um as it relates to this item I think I I would like to go uh at the next first is My Hope was to to discuss this and I I went back and listened I'm like did I say it was I not clear should I have said it and I think it said a couple times but just the discussion whether you know was understood that way or not is is really important and at least having like that that update sent out but going through and I think we have um we have what was provided but what it does is it it really delays us because this is you get an information only item we learn learn and know that we can't discuss that that's not what those are for and so when can we discuss it well the appropriate method is to put it on the agenda and so then we're we're two months out and so it to me is put it on and discuss it so we can get this resolved and get it put behind us and fix these issues um I'm not happy with a lot of the progress that's been made and things that I'm learning and seeing um I really want to see this continue uh to move forward as expeditiously as possible possible but there's still questions out there that are not being answered and one of the things that was really important in the last meeting first I just want to make a point this statement was made to add on informational items should not be added on the request I believe that that I made was that this should have been on as a discussion item from the beginning so why is that something that I should defend up here I don't I don't think that's the way whether it was it to me there's no option but to to get back to the intention and I do think that's in the best interest of the public but at 9:22 p.m. we know uh you know our brains aren't as sharp as 4:00 today or 5 uh when we first started and so uh the questions and the information well that I have is bsna access was requested at the last meeting and I didn't hear anyone oppose we were provided at 50:01 p.m. on a Friday that here's the way you get access to bsna and it was highly constricted to what I believe the intent was I have not been able to get answers to emails that went out and forwarded and Then followed up again and today I I did I have not responded to that but I have a a lot of questions around that and I don't want to ask those in a oneon-one meeting I want to ask those with the council in an environment that the goal is to not do anything other than fix it we get the people out of it this Council five of us is really represents two computers I read the email it talked about the Privacy Act of 1974 Hipp up I'm not asking for that who has the highest level of administrative access into bsna today that's going to be our it manager Mike our it manager he is the one that assigns the accesses I'm going to ask some questions that I really need to understand the answers to do you know who has access to bsna at the highest administrative level do we know our org chart in user permissions in bsna I'll give you an example John Deo administra and financial services director has administrative highest level access for all modules Community Development kind of in the org chart but do you have the highest level from what I read is you do not have the highest level I only have what I need to do do to do my job you are the city manager and your job is to verify all things happening in all of those departments so that they're run running effectively and efficiently that's the stanza right above the reminder of please be mindful of city code 228 read up one more above that and it talks about efficient and effective management every verification that we've turned over Iraq there's been issues and the latest one was around a statement with these uh notes that were uh that was stated that on 52424 the gentleman this is regarding the the uh 116 Jackson Avenue Cowboy it was quoted from your notes from the uh the findings that our city manager provided came from a document that I couldn't see and I was told those are in bsna we can go look right now when I went to bsna I didn't find them that next night and the created date in there I think we we all see it was 59 the meeting was on 57 so I don't know why they weren't in there but the reason I want bsna access is to say where are all can I see all the records and if there's any one example of Hippo violation that we've actually came across in this city who who came across any who has seen any confidential information or exempt information who has seen that with their eyes and who has access to the very documentation that you're concerned about protecting city employees this doesn't have anything to do with them if there's anything in their F and protecting who in our city has access to this information do we know the answer to that for instance um the the person who does the business tax receipts is going to get information that includes Social Security numbers and driver's license numbers and sensitive information business tax receipts okay um anything to do with HR some Finance stuff is going to have information about social security numbers find where would Social Security numbers come in to find that's that's our City's financing right address that that's our we we use Spring Brook prior for our count right I actually just want to take a step back to the first one the first one was business I I filled out a business tax receipt in the city I don't remember turning anything over that I felt was confidential now I'm a public official and we lay our lives out and the and the light pretty but do we have a a are those exempt from records protected information however it's defined we have a duty to ensure that there's there's a safeguard in place from it being exposed publicly it's on a need to know information basis and frankly L of that a lot of that stuff I don't need to know I don't need to know anybody's social security number to do my job and I don't think Council wants to know that either and I even put that in the email last Friday I I firmly believe you're not asking to see this but who's given that info up is my question a business taxt I didn't give my social security number up to have a business tax receipt a business tax receipt application is going to require either an EIN number or a social security number but those aren't confidential the E's not confidential the social security so we can we just redact those I don't we don't even want this but you're but you're on you're on the same track that I am that putting in safeguards reviewing to make sure there's nothing here that we don't want to make public but let let me share with you and I think I can short shortcut things here okay where we left off was um this was a lengthy series of meetings last week to get to that point for that email on Friday lot of concerns but where we left off was we want to provide this access to council we want to provide it where you want it where you want to see it I only got one response to that email and it was for code enforcement building department and and business tax receipts and we're happy to do that as a matter of fact we believe that bsna for for those databases they have an online component that is cloud hosted that when we bought ours ours we bought the server hosted so because our it consultant at the time was very concerned about security he didn't like the the cloud-based things he wanted it on the server so that means staff has a view that is server-based interface and that's what you've seen in my office but the public has another view that is cloud-based well the whole those that information and those databases is meant to be Cloud hosted so I I asked Mike to look at that well why don't we just change to that so we go in the same way the public goes in it's not a council view it's any member of public has this view of code enforcement and building for example and it's the same view we have no difference and that solves another question that I was asked about remote access because not all council members want to have it in the in the city hall so it it wait what was that not all council members want to have access restricted to City Hall access only they want to have it remotely understood thank you so that that kills that bird too so if we can get bsna completely Cloud hosted for uh code enforcement and building the public can see the same that we see they see every data field that we see there's no difference but I'm not asking for the public and we're short on time I'm asking for as mayor and as the entire Council I want to see your view because I know there are reporting and capabilities in there that I'm not getting and I'm saying we're going to and I feel that my access is being highly restricted this isn't to make better service for the public I want to see 100 16 Avenue 118 Avenue in any other case no confidential information that should be immediately redacted and and it's they have we have Public Access today I don't want to go over to the cloud version until it's not about providing better service under this we asked for 10 items to be handled a lot of these questions bsna should answer we ask for all the records we just learned that more records are now popping up on 5'9 after in that meeting when I and that thick report that one jumped out at me can I answer that real quick that doesn't that date that date 5'9 that date is the date no no no no you're you keep bringing up the 5'9 the 59 date was the date that that report was created to place into the public records request that wasn't the date that the field notes were created the field notes were in there the field notes have always been in bsna I looked at him the the that night I went in there and looked at him H how could you prove that and demonstrate that I wouldn't there is no way there's absolutely no way that I could go in there slow down you're telling me that I can't go into laser fish look at a creation date on when a field no you can go no you can go into bsna and you can look at the field notes you could have done that last week or the week before you provided the field notes in the month of March to us mhm they said in that that those are all the the uh notes that we have for6 Avenue and anything prior to 2022 did not exist that's what was written to us yes right there I'm supposed to trust I'm supposed to trust and go this is the way it is and just to well let me just make sure no there are records prior to 2022 and for whatever reason but this record was after 2022 mhm yeah when why was that not provided in the original item that was told that we were told is completed I think we've explained that mayor one more time please one more time what can you explain explain I I don't I can't why was that why was that why was that information why was the original I think it was in March when we provided that original response response to the January 24th items and in that March update or in that March response there was a improper incorrect response made because there was we only limited our records from I'm going to say 2020 to 2022 the request was from 2016 I believe we've answered that question several times on why that information prior to 2020 was not included okay you recall getting that information unless I've got a glaring very bad issue the dated specific item was from 524 203 that was the that was the field note the date of the field note and on that date first time I saw that was the city manager's findings that was not provided in March and it's not prior to 2022 findings he said Cowboy made a complaint about rocks I go and then it's mentioned that's on page seven of his report and then on page nine he puts a sidebyside table and says it again MH I asked where was that in the field notes well we have the field notes they were not there that's my question then it was added in bsna to uh on the nth that's confusing when our meeting was on the 7th you have not answered my my question respectfully I would love to answer your question but it's difficult when you raise these issues I was not unaware I was not aware of this before this evening that you had issues on this this specific question I think we're done here you can uh that is absolutely mindblowing if you go back to the last meeting right here in this moment at this time mayor 2 hours and 30 minutes in the special meeting we literally talked about this and you said we can go look on bsna now and I'm saying I did that and it was not there and did you did you did you hear what Brian indicated to you and what I thought I heard you say is you didn't trust what he was saying it doesn't make sense to me are you saying it doesn't make sense or you don't trust him I'm asking when that item was put in I think he answered that question when was that on the 9th no are you are you speaking of the 524 23 uh complaint that was filed by the only Steve Le talking about is that okay that was put in on 5 2423 I do not know why it wasn't in the the the the field notes or the whatever it was synopsis that that I saw that you received that you handed to me I don't know why it looked like that was cut and pasted and it looked like half of it was deleted off of that so I don't know why that was there the reason why the date on the top says 59 is because I was request or I was instructed to put a heading on top of the on all of my notices now on all my letters that I do I have to put a head sorry little I understand I have to put a heading on top that date is the date is the date that I took that report and put it into the public records request so everybody on council could see that report on 524 2023 the code enforcement officer entered into the field notes that he spoke with Steve Cowboy Lewis and that gentleman filed a complaint verbally about the filling of the Swale he put that in there I cannot answer to why that was cut off of the one that you showed me the other day that you handed me the other day I can't answer I even looked at the one that city manager provided me I can't answer to that I have no idea I'm sorry that I don't have an idea about that but I really don't that's okay if you don't have an idea you don't have an idea my issue is you're saying it was in laser fish or bsna are both on on 5 2423 it went into the field notes which is what is that laser fish or bsna or both it would have been bsna and that's when we were having the issue as you know with the word documents and people not seeing Word documents all of the um a lot of those field notes we took from where the officers were putting them where it couldn't be seen by the public they were putting them in a little in in a portion of bsna that couldn't be seen so we took those and we transferred them over and we originally were transferring them into Word documents because it was easier and we are placing them in bsna and they weren't being able to be seen so then we took them all and we put them in these right folders or right files if you want to call it it's still a Microsoft Word but it's a right file we were placing them in that and then putting them into the system we were having some issues with those too I took everything shoved it into a PDF form for that property specifically because you asked me I can't see these I still can't see these I battled and battled and battled trying to fix that problem that I took it all and I shoved it into a PDF form I don't like I said it it was in there I don't remember the date exactly that I put it as a PDF file I do know that I've spent three four five six months trying to fix this problem that the citizens can't see our documents the thank you and and I think it's we knew that those access to documents was large across just really all properties and what we wanted to do in January was just take these the Jackson Avenue and get all those records right and so the that meeting where they we presented everything we needed to know that that was all of the this is it because how how can we make decisions until we get all the information then we had our city manager's findings which I think his dis discovery of some sort is that that El that came out for the first time there but you're saying it was there the whole time my biggest issue and I said this in the last meeting how did cowboy complain about filling gravel in a Swale before the dat the gravel was in the sale the gravel was not laid until June that's it do we have an answer to that the code officer said that he saw that Swale fi filled on 5 2423 he said that she did not fill it in June she filled it before that that's what the code officer States and you I am going off the testimony of Peg schaer I don't have any evidence I don't have anything to to say you're going off the testimony of our code enforcement officer right so that because it that just doesn't my experience there that doesn't make sense right and and I'm not trying to say our city manager said something you have you know this side and that side and sort of we're kind of neutral there I think we have to make a decision on which which one is the truth and which one's not and so I'm trying to get to the bottom of this specific issue bsna access eliminates a lot of this back and forth like the same access Todd that I think you would have or anyone would have please without without any limitations on my ability to run reports question mayor I'm sorry yes I was just going to say this is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier obviously we have discussed this you have questions that you could have asked them prior you're bringing up old items you're again asking different questions are you going to defend me here Todd and what I'm I emailed him two days after the meeting that question I followed your path I followed your path it has not worked did not get in a reply for 13 days did you speak to either one I just followed up again yesterday and got my reply I speak to the city manager as our code instructs and he works to the Departments Kim I agree with you I know that the narrative might sound like I'm disrespectful and I run around and I do what I want I Ambush that's not what's happen did you speak to them prior today did you speak to Dave Dicky and Brian prior to today I I said this at the last meeting today I know but did you had questions for today did you ask them prior to the meeting no well then I I'm going to say we asked for it to be provided at this meeting and I wanted to discuss it and it was put on as an information item and it's not discussed do you not see the glaring issue there I see that you didn't ask them prior so I think do I have to and nor should I I asked him at the meeting prior that makes no sense to me respectfully council member Davis I said it right here in front of you I asked them hey on 524 what's this we can go look and then I followed up with email and then I followed up with a second email and tonight yes am I going to go run in to their office as I get here literally an hour before the meeting and I've got calls and go hey you still haven't answered me on my fourth attempt to get a question answer say you had no opportunity prior to this evening to qu to speak to them about these questions I used those opportunities and I did you speak to them yesterday I emailed them why I don't understand the yeser yes I yes yes yes I emailed Todd yesterday about this yes I did well I it's obvious that you have several questions and that you need answering so because of the time I'm going to suggest we move it on move move it to the next meeting if you want an agenda item or whatever we're asking the same things you know we're we're not going to get the answers that you want tonight so I I suggest you take you know you have the opportunity to speak to them in person that was it rolled off that was no and I I do not think we should be waiting till the next meeting to get the answers to the questions to these since it started in January this was in the appropriate format asked at the last meeting and here we are the next meeting and it's an information that's that's an issue that and in accountability and email came in today about accountability they were not talking to our city staff even though it was sent to the city clerk office they're talking to us now and so bsna access I think for the third time now I'm asking please I don't want I want whatever module you don't there were no menu of options it said code enforcement building Etc I don't know what we have I said finance code and building I would like access to those and please redact anything this idea that tell us the spefic specific area that you want I have until I don't know why we would have a bunch of confidential information that cities who what employees have access to to Social Security numbers there's also Hippa information but what Hippa information I know we all know about Hippa mayal records mod somewhere have you ever seen one have you ever seen one health record anyone I only have access to one module two I do not feel that that the effort is being made to give this Council access to bsna effort went in to stating that there could be health information and I wanted it to prepare for this meeting council member Davis I did and we never we never well they did give it letter the thing is I believe that's administrative I don't think you you or all of any of us should have access to all of be an sna who should I well the appropriate people that deal with that I personally I personally don't want all the financial information the Hippa information or anything of all this staff if I want to find out about code enforcement this and that then that's what we need access to I don't think you need access to all the information and you're getting into what I feel administrative I think you're getting into administrative who who should have access to the you need access to that it's administrative we do not do administrative it is not administrative yes it is it is if you want if you want records if you want reports public records law Hipp and all that financial information those are exemptions well defined in public record you don't need access to them I don't why would I want access to anyone ask for no I am not I am saying the same access that you would give the an administrator on a view capability I don't even want the ability to edit anything I want to be able to run reports and view all modules and they should go in and redact but they're not aware to my understanding of any Hippa information that we've redacted or processed in bsna and I would say once you come across that that'd be a good I understand screening it prior to releasing but it it should not be this hard to get access that why do you you should have full access to it concerns me that you do not have as city manager everything that you can verify with your directors on an ad I could get it if I asked for it why do you not want I don't need that for my to my job if I what what goes into bsna doesn't need verifying to what happens in the real world if I haven't proven that I'm very concerned can I ask why you feel if you are in the position that you don't want to verify anymore Todd I'm not saying I then full access is what you need give me view only who has full access does anyone why do you need full access to verify Citywide code enforcement building official and financial entries and to do my responsibility in due diligence as a council member not just spontaneously asking for this after three years and then finding oh here's some new stuff can I ask can we please go in and look for ourselves because we have a responsibility to do that can I ask the City attorney are we borderline administrative here for some of these the council wants to you know delve into the minutia I mean I guess so be it um no I don't um I don't like this narrative you're you're administrative you're delving well I mean I think the if I can just make a comment mayor because I I really don't know anything about bsna I don't know what's in there or how it's put in there um I think what what the manager was trying to explain and I'm going to let him explain for himself is you know some of the modules may have protected information like hipper related health information if if they do I would advise the council to stay away from that information whether you mentioned mayor finance code enforcement building permit I would hope there wouldn't be any Hipp medical information in those modules that would present a HIPPA issue but I don't know the mapping of this system um and I would even want the council members to accidentally stumble upon an employees health protected information so I would hope that when this access is provided to the council that you're protected from seeing that stuff um how that's done is beyond my knowledge why would we have any I don't want any employee I'm not an HR I know you don't but the the point of the email Friday was to say of utmost importance is protected information so with that as the utmost level that now just tell me please respond to this email I said with the information you want to see we'll do a quick scan to see if there's any protected information in there if there's none we'll turn on the access if there's some we have to put in a safeguard that's what Friday's email was about I only got one response to that I know I'm I'm expressing my genuine access I hope to have it as soon as possible and I thought it was clearly stated on the record and we waited a whole week to 501 to get the answer the weekend hits and yes that frustrated me very much I'm sorry to frustrate you but you've just given me the answer that I asked for in that email which is you want to see finance code and building so tomorrow I'm going to have staff that in the meeting the last meeting I said that understood tomorrow I was I will ask staff to review those three modules for any protected information and if finding none turn them on on your computer M yeah Mr Mayor yeah yes council member Willis I know City manager's already stated that there is a cloud component that would grant us all access to the data we could run reports now I have met this past week I spent nearly two hours with Brian and he took me through bsna again gave me a refresher showed me anything I wanted to see I asked for the time and he graciously gave it to me saw anything I wanted was a bble to go anywhere I wanted to go um now do I want that responsibility to just wonder around no but I do want to be able to see just like anyone else would uh but I was able to get there I was able to get that access from I also spent uh nearly an hour with the city clerk's office discussing our uh records and what's public what's available what what could we be creating that is could be a problem and if we're going in creating reports those are public records so we have to be careful on on what we create as council members making sure that we're saving that information that it is suddenly public records and we could be falling into a trap where we're creating something that the public might want to see and we can't put our fingers on it so we've got to be very careful on how we tread here and uh you know as far as the some of the documents that have been called into question over Jackson and elsewhere um we asked for those things to be visible even though they were drafts and they shouldn't have been there but we we had a part in creating that problem so by our request so we have to be very careful on some of the things we ask and and uh I'm sure this is going to get taken care of by the city manager and uh I think uh checking into the uh uh cloud-based modules might be a little more uh uh robust for us than just a server base and the reason I like that is because it gives remote access to anybody who wants it and it's the same view that staff has it's we're working literally with the same view the only difference is permission you know you can't write you can read you can print you just couldn't write and we would decide if we're going to go from an on premise or a cloudbase the council would make that decision I I want to get a price for that and see what the cost is first and present it to city council after you get that we would be responsible so wouldn't it be really helpful to know how the software today looks so that we can accurately compared to the cloud phase well to the view is what you SE now Brian correct me if I'm wrong The View that the public sees now say for code enforcement and building is the public view it's that view is Staff would have that same view we're going in that same way understand Mr Mayor yes can I make a a possible suggestion or just throw a thought out there um bsna gives training classes I think it might be who of us as a council to have a training session that is given to us so that we understand the systems capabilities it will not be that expensive to have them come and give one class to all of us at the same time um so that we know the capabilities and what the system will do what information is available this is compartmentalized and moduled uh it's it's mod it's designed in modules so I'm sure there are classes of service and things like that where things can be modified as far as access there are probably administrative levels based on what your your tasks are and those things can be restricted to ensure that we have um the right levels of of uh staff and Council dealing with the uh systems appropriately but I think that it would be at this point in the game with what is going on with it I think it would be very good to have a training session on system administration and how this can be set up for our situation here to alleviate this going forward instead of making any kind of um instead of any of us saying well we think this is best let's let's refer to the Tech vendor I I think that would be really good I would like firm we have the ability to download them on the computer in the mayor's office or in the council member's office today we've paid for that that's already been purchased back when we signed up we got that because they charge per user lensey sure I just need today we about tomorrow I will have staff review for any protected information seeing none if there is none open up access as soon as possible once they're done looking for it um if there is protected information find a way to make it unviewable but open up access that and that's the information that I needed thank you mayor thank you um city manager I have one more question I'm sorry and then I will um do you do you know if our implementation specialist when we had this installed as the same person that's probably not um I could be going on on limb here but I know Cheryl poo had a lot to do with implementation of that system and she's still here okay so if I would I would like I'm not um as long as Council isn't okay with this I think that it would be worthwhile for us to get in touch with that person to talk and and get a better definition of how things were defined in levels of access so that we can potentially talk to her about a future training and that kind of thing but find out how they implemented things because typically software is flex flexible and that might clear up some of these things I would just ask that we work through her Department director John Deo and he's also in charge of our it manager too okay and I like the idea of bsna training for councel I like the idea of the online component for both staff and Council same view um and I understand if I am correct on this the city council wants to keep this item coming back now as a discussion item monthly unless I'm wrong please speak up yes and um I think that covers it one quick statement on uh bsna if it is cloud-based it's probably going to have a more advanced administrative function which means it will probably have access to restrict visible Fields according to your level of administration so for the cloud-based any any social security number field would be redacted automatically any personal identifiers would be redacted automatically and would not go out to a public view so you know you could you could have the uh administrative rights for HR would see all Social Security numbers nobody else would right so I don't know how old the server-based bsna is but since it's restricted to internal it's probably fairly wide open so I think there's there will probably be some additional administrative features and restrictions that we don't currently have and it's all understood that there's there's information that counil is not even looking to be interested in and we know that we just want to give you access to the information you are interested in looking in thank you anything else Council okay with that looking for a motion to adjourn mayor can I make one quick comment I'm sorry sorry about that I made a comment earlier this evening I I want to amend it I I I mentioned I think it was council member Jackson said did the property owners out at Filmore were they aware of fpnl response about the rebar and my my my comment was yes they did because I I was thinking that those those specifics were in the task spreadsheet that we send out on the regular basis I'm not sure those specifics are in that so I'm going to retract that and um if it's if it's um not in that inform if it's not in the spreadsheet currently I'm going to put it in the next update so everybody's aware of it and contact them tomorrow individually Sher and Miranda and the other group so thank you mayor thank you that's great M I appreciate that I just have one thing I um at the beginning of the meeting public comment um Pat Campbell talked about the household chemical and electrical Amnesty Day I would like staff to look into something we we have been and I I told him I was going to share my information with him with Pat y I had contacted uh Waste Pro about that when he originally brought it up and it was going to cost about $440,000 is what I was told but it also depends on the volume of what is turned in and a lot of Staff work or volunteer work yeah and and it would be if you had a tremendous response price could go up it would probably be more beneficial if we could share that with another entity such as Coco Beach or something I can talk if you talk but I'll share what I have with Pat and he and I can brainstorm on ideas with this that's great okay well thank you I'd like to I know we don't do this every time but motion to adjourn formally motion to adjourn second all right now do we have to call the vote on this Anthony or is that a motion well since you made a motion now you need to call a vote otherwise you as a presiding office that could just adjourn look at their city clerk sorry the motion was made by mayor ptim Kellum yes and second un council member Davis council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum four mayor Morrison four council member Willis four meeting adjourned thank you sorry about that