e e e go e e e e h good afternoon everyone historic preservation commission April 15 2024 it's just a couple minutes after 6 o'clock in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of this act they should state so at this time time Pledge of Allegiance please pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call please Mr copelan uh here Mr Carol here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson here Mr Tesa here miss bagno here Miss Wilson strick here Mr Johnson here Mr hammeron yeah thank you um the minutes of March 18 2024 um there's been some updates to that so I would uh suggest we defer those until uh next meeting I'm mooving to defer the minutes to the next meeting second I'm sorry who was the second on that John thank you Mr copen yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa okay by me Miss bagno abstain Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you resolution Waters 1218 New York Avenue block 1131 Lots 11 and 12 resolution 20242 Adidas Addis rather Inc doing business as lamir beach front Resort 1317 Beach Avenue block 1146 slot 6 through 24 resolution 2020 403 Lord 1239 New York Avenue block 1132 Lot 27 where resolution 20 2404 mullock 808 corgy street block 1090 Lot 2 resolution 20245 isi um 911 Madison Avenue block 1111 Lot 12 resolution 2020 406 and Drake 322 Congress Street block 1031 lot 60 Resolution 20 2407 do I have a motion to accept those resolutions so moved second motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Yes except abstain on 325 Congress thank you Mr Testa yes Miss bisagno abstain Miss Wilson strick yes thank you applications approved or denied in review there were two additions hover and F 1304 New York Avenue block 1147 D13 this was a contributing property with a paver driveway Amendment and another addition is kin kissling 24 stockt in place block 1062 lot one this a non-contributing again paer driveway walkway um they were added and it's documented and it's uh available online do I have a motion to accept the applications approved or denied in review motion SEC do I have a second I'll second the motion motion by Mr Stevenson seconded by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa uh yes with respect to all except the Mad batter um from which I'll abstain thank you Miss bag now yes Miss Wilson strick Yes except for Congress Hall which I will abstain thank you um old business the first one is probably not necessary and uh can be approved in review this is the m Macedonia Baptist Church this was we've heard several times this was a very slight change on the railing um and um I would suggest we move move on there's no one here to represent that and it's not necessary um so what do we have to do to do just just to be clear Mr chairman this is uh this this deemed minor work that can be approved in review it won't need a resolution then right okay yes correct um so we'll send it to Review Committee it's been to Review Committee it's it's an administrative issue so um if if you want we can take a motion and and vote on this if you like maybe that would well just just because we did on your changing the agenda before I suppose we had to vote on I'm perfectly happy to have you remove it from the agenda but that could be the motion okay yeah I'll I'll move to uh to uh remove the Macedonia Baptist Church application from tonight's agenda and uh send it on to final passage by the Review Committee motion by Mr Tessa seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Mr pagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes thank you now before we get into the real agenda um there's a number of items on here um this time of year gets very busy and um it is possible that we would go beyond 9:30 we we cannot accept applications after 9:30 um and um also if we're in the middle of an application at 10:00 we have to stop and so there is a chance that we may go over that so some of you that are at the end of the agenda U may want to volunteer to come in uh next month and in exchange for that we will put you on the top of the agenda so um that's an option for those of you are late in the evening um we might go through this very quickly and not be a problem um somewhere as the evening goes um if you have a change of heart and you see how we're doing um then you are welcome to raise your hand and we'll put you on next month um also I would remind the um group to uh when you're not talking to turn the mic off um so there's there's not any chatter miscommunications on the on the tape um and also I would remind you when you talk you would might want to put it back on first order of old business Lawrence prey Builders 523 Bank Street block 1054 lot 22 this is a non-contributing uh building it's a new house [Music] hello hello name and relationship Kevin project manager at Fenwick Architects Lawrence a pre from Lawrence a pre builders thank you take it away all right uh we were here last month uh for 523 Bank Street it's a new home on a vacant piece of ground that was subdivided uh we received conceptual approval and there's a couple comments that uh you asked us to address and this is now set of construction drawings that have addressed those items if you turn the package to the c101 in the construction drawings on the site uh there was some discussion about the fences it wasn't clear what was proposed so we've tried to clarify that that it's a six foot high cedar fence in the rear of the house and a 4ft fence along the driveway uh and the driveway fence is solid and the rear fence is 4 foot high solid and then it's pickets above that there is a mistake in the application on the material list it should say Cedar it says it in the product data but not on the uh material list it should so that was a mistake that was changed but then on page A3 in the package it it's calling it out a cedar and that is the intent Cedar fencing un UNF so your so materialist checklist should read it should say Cedar instead of cellular PVC correct and then the other um items had to do with Windows and shutters be you look at the front elevation on sheet a201 the seat 7 of the construction drawings we have indicated that the shutters on the front are operable shutters with hinges and uh they're also proportioned to properly close over the window opening and then on the sides we have added non-operable shutters to the sides but those are also proportioned to the windows uh and then the other other was we we moved the one window on the stair Landing from the side elevation to the front elevation as far as I know that was the only comments we had last month thank you um any questions uh from the commission anyone do I have a motion I move to approve this application it as a final submission second motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss pagum yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you nicely done thank you very much thank you shorter than wa yes um next order of old business 17 South Broadway Lock u 11 101 18 rather lot 20 it's a contributing property and it's a new garage oh well uh Katherine would you I have an exhibit I'd like to pass tell who you are oh my name is Katherine lorence I'm the architect and this is the owner Mr TR thank you okay yes invested in the property June 2012 and we're excited to be working towards full-time residency here in the home one of the primary objectives to have a safe place for my vehicle you can see and so we want to save place to keep it and here january3 and engaged after here to have the St match Gage that we to turn over Cather um I passed out this exhibit because this is one of the main purposes of this building is a garage and as you can see uh this is a prizewinning car that is a 196 9 GTO and I'll get into more specifics about this but I thought it adds a little interest to what we're doing um I'd like qu Mile and 13 seconds and 107 miles hour just just adding the interest I I don't think this is the right time for us muscle car devotees to jump in so uh well yes um I thought I would I would go over the drawings uh I think that's uh the most important thing first to talk about and then we can go back about the style and the rendering of the building so the first sheet shows you a site plan and uh the site plan uh indicates the existing house but it also indicates with these little dotted lines that there is a a concrete pavers that are in the front of the house and then in the backyard the entire backyard uh is concrete so uh part of what we're doing in addition to building this new garage is we're going to remove all of this concrete and uh pavers and uh bring this building back to the proper lot coverage so if we ignore a01 and go to sheet a1. on the top of the sheet uh shows the new site plan and so we're proposing to have uh brick ribbons for the driveway up to the garage grass in between a a brick entrance to the garage and then we are proposing a twostory garage in the rear of the house and the rest of the backyard will be roses and flowers so uh in addition to building a structure that you would see from the street that is going to be attractive we're also um improving the lot coverage and drainage of the building on the the bottom of this sheet uh we have a floor plan this is going to be actually a three car garage on one side of the garage is going to have a lift and it will be open for the full height of the garage so that this beautiful car can be stored when not in use under the lift would be the day-to-day car and then to the other side is a smaller car and and we propos to have storage above and one of the uh uh reasons that I in addition to showing you this beautiful car is is that we want to have this uh garage conditioned uh this garage is going to hold storage but it's also going to hold this antique car and in the humidity uh around Cape May I think we're all aware uh we don't want mold we don't want dry rod uh we need to condition the uh the garage so uh the floor plan indicates two garage doors that are going to mimic a carriage door where they will have a top Motors that will pivot the doors out these are not going to be your traditional rollup garage doors these are going to be custom g wood doors um if we go to the next sheet a2.0 uh you can if you look at the first drawing on the left you see the elevation of the garage which is the same as the rendering so this is what you'll see looking down from the street would be this garage and I did a lot of driving around Cape May and and uh found a couple of inspiration garages um this house was built in the 1920s it's it's a sort of a four squarehouse it may be considered arts and crafts but there was um very little that we could mimic uh other than some of the sighing I felt for a garage so I thought to make it more look like a carriage house than an act ual uh garage and the other elevations go into one side where we have a GL a glass door that leads out to the backyard we have a man door on the other side and then you can see at the bottom uh right the section through the garage I know people get a little bit uptight when there's a two-story garage you're not going to have G head room in here but you will have a stair that will lead you up to storage and then the other side of the garage has the lift for the two cars um now I'll go through the uh booklet I I'm not sure that we need to go through every page but I wanted to point out a few pages for example um on page 13 we see the photograph of the house and you can clearly see all of the brick concrete pavers that are in front of the house that will be removed we will have the the Brick uh ribbon and we will put a regular concrete sidewalk in front of the house the inspiration is sort of twofold and that would be on a page oh well I mean maybe we want to look at the the streetcape uh which is on page 15 uh there's sort of a jumble of houses some of which are not historic there's a across the street a big big Victorian that's being restored and right next to their house is the uh Motel Driftwood the Driftwood so um this house is sort of the uh in addition to the big Victorian the two big victorians is one of the oldest on the Block then if we go to page 16 after looking at uh other garages around trying to make this garage uh match or feel a part of the building there are two things well the garage on the lower left I just love this garage it's on uh Madison and uh it was sort of influenced me because even though it's a new garage it's really has a nice attention to detail and that's something that I wanted to mimic in the new garage is really good details nice nice roof Gable with trim uh a beautiful garage G door nice carriage lights we're not doing the v-shaped window but the essence of that garage is what I was hoping that we could obtain in this new design also when I went around looking at the house there wasn't much again that I felt I could mimic other than maybe the siding for the pop out window the fish scale siding and any windows that would go in uh with with the uh 9 over one we would we would use those windows in the new garage so if we went to page 20 this is something that I picked up off the web but again I want to stress the details this isn't just going to be slapped together we're going to work with the builder so that we get some some really nice eaves that return um we have uh the detail of sort of a nice a corner piece on the garage and then um finally if we look at the last page which is 22 that sort of gives you an idea of what we're looking at we're having a uh the lift double double car and then the other car on the other side the materials that we're proposing would be Hardy Board sighting uh Anderson 400 series window which is not a wood window um Hardy Board is a ctitious board asphaltic Roofing um ASAC trim and then uh the real big expense is going to be the custom wood doors that will open out and uh I thought a little Koopa would add a a little Pizzazz to the garage as the one on Madison Avenue had so um I'm open to questions um yeah we're we normally go around the room as you know I have some questions right in the front end I mimicking a garage in the neighborhood is interesting but trying to pick up a a a detail from the house seems more important and this has a shallow hip roof and I'm curious as why you decided to go with it with a a roof I it it it doesn't a design characteristic you could pick up is glaring I mean it's it's this shallow hip yes it's a hip roof and uh I had also also um the the the siding is is clap bir and clap wordss and I don't know why you wouldn't pick that up that's a design characteristic this this is a contributing house and the garage would certainly have mimicked the roof of the house and the siding of the house so I'm curious as to I appreciate picking up the doors and the way they work and um is is is appropriate you've been before us a lot and and you know what we're looking for so I hesitate I'm not being critical but I I must admit I'm I'm stuck on this this design a hip roof would not allow us to get the lift into the garage um many many houses that I have worked on in Cape May City the garages do not mimic the house they're built at a separate time and period many of the houses had stables in the back uh or the garages were added later on as far as the sighting certainly uh clab board sighting is an option uh I could not get the design to work with a hip roof um I'm sensitive uh it's it should be obvious I'm sensitive to wanting to maintain a um classic car um in my own situation I have classic cars and a contributing house um and it's not possible for me to keep them on the property and so I have I have garages outside of the community so designing uh a a historic looking garage that is not consistent with the house so that we can maintain a card is not very appealing I it's not to me so with with that I would suggest we go around the room and get some other opinions but the siding uh would certainly have matched and the roof line would have matched um if it was going to be a carriage house instead of a a a garage and then many of the Carriage Houses are turned into garages but um this is a contributing house in the historic district I'm um rather than go around the room since we do have a a busy evening I will open it up anyone from the commission have additional comments in light of what Warren had already mentioned uh on the materials list under siding it does indicate Hardy Board to match house patterns so apparently there was cons consideration at one time to do that and obviously the board in Baton is a change yes uh well I picked up the fish scales I would clearly uh pick up the uh at your suggestion pick up clab board sighting for the rest of the garage uh and the reason why we're bringing this up on page 56 of the standards it does say that any accessory building should be compatible with existing building in terms of materials details and finishes so that's really why we're putting this up so as far as the the sighting of the house we're certainly open to changing the sighting making the house making the garage have the same exact type of roof I think is unreasonable because like I said many of these garages were built separately from the house and a lot of time I mean I can come back with a list many of the garages do not match the house they're just plain simple roofs I I think you're going to probably hear more push back about the materials I I don't think the Hardy siding is appropriate at all for the garage okay I do think I do think that bringing the materials to a to a wooden clabber would go a long way to um satisfying me I I frankly think it's it's a really very nice design I'm not so concerned that it mirror the house as as much as the chair seems to be but I I and the other thing that influences me is it's in the back of the lot it's way in the back of the lot it's the least thing visible from the street um so so it's really not a lot of garage that's going to get seen from the street but but I will stick to to the comment about the materials I think the I think the Hardy board's all wrong so is it the Hardy Board or is it that it's board and Baton as opposed to horizontal siding no it's the Hardy Board to me so you would prefer that it be a wood sighting I mean that's that's my my my comment on this it should you should go to Wood and and and you get the choice um I I I would think that that The Closer You Came to it least M the house is the house is clabbered right yes yeah so the closer you came to to the house the better that would be but the material is what offends me the most as for the rest of it I understand the height I understand the need to project uh um with the uh the mechanism to lift the car in the air so so it's to me it's a good use of the space and I think you should be entitled to that I I don't think that we would have um any objection to making the garage wood cided to match the clab board of the existing house I agree one of one of my reactions similar to um what Jim is mentioning is I think we should give some credit to the property and the removal of all the papers that are already on the on the ground and really kind of opening up a more call it organic streetcape as opposed to something that is so completely manufactured and I do think that if if that's done well similar to what Jim's talking about and I know you talked about the landscaping and the vegetation how you plan to make that in I do think that that will even diminish further the impact right now it looks like the beginning of a parking lot with pavers there right but as you run the strips back to me that that makes it yeah informal residential and and and brings that garage to satisf yeah what what is the distance from the beginning of the lot to that garage um Mr Drake just make sure your microphone's turned on you can hit hit green button there go thank you um uh the distance is 130 see 100 130 ft also can I point out that when you look down from the street side you're only going to see this half of the garage because the house blocks the other half so you're you're only going to see that that portion of the garage that that the side with the two cars in it what's that yes that's where the baby goes I I do agree with the change in the siding uh as I look at the front picture of it uh there's no details in this that jump out that try to say phony Victorian early colonial you know it's it's got you know little cuple at the top which lots of garages had for a little bit of air flow through the second floor a Weather Vein uh you know I I think it fits very well say I agree with the people that say it's setback I love love the fact that you're getting so many of those papers out and uh um when I think when you look at your application you see this very blue house and then a very yellow building in the back although we don't control colors we sort of like the little coordination between the two I very winkled blue is very hard to render so I I rendered it in yellow just so it would stand out okay so it would be color coordinated with the house it would be color coordinated with the house yes so I I I really don't have problem with it if we change the siding to uh horizontal clap Bo I only have one more comment on page um 56 of our standards when it talks about Carriage House and accessory structures it says windows and doors should complement the character of the existing windows in the primary building's architectural style so I'm curious as to why the two windows above the doors have a proportion of 7:1 length to height ratio which would be totally incompat with any of the windows in the existing house they're long horizontal windows so why is that I was trying to get uh light natural light into the garage and that's that's the only reason there there is that's what I could fit yeah and I didn't want it to be a blank you're trying to maximize the glazing area of the volume of wall that you had right clearly you were trying to augment the daylight that could penetrate deep into that space because the higher the head of course the more Daylight get all that but that character of window is not in compliance with our standards in being a long horizontal window as opposed to maybe a series of squares or something like that just an alterntive window configuration that speaks more the language of the house I think would be much more appropriate if your windows lined up with the garage doors below it and and you had two on one side two on the other that were in line with the garage doors I think that would mean that's actually exactly what I was thinking yeah got it uhuh so so it we'd line them up and we' we'd line them up essentially it' be four Windows instead of two yes that would work just that would be uh that would be uh an easy design fix thought so other comments I will make a motion that the application be accepted for final uh with the addition of uh uh horizontal clapboard wood siding uh still with the Shing the fish scale shingles on the front and the windows over the garage doors be rather than one long strip of Windows be two windows that match the spacing of the garage door windows I can second that motion and and you just did I did motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan uh no I it's clear that our standards are looking for an accessory building to fit in with the uh primary building and um a shallow U hip roof uh would be more appropriate I'm sensitive to the aspiration and the need but I I don't think it's sufficient to violate our design standards so I vote no Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you thank you thank you that was fun yeah right right next order of business is um Lam mer be beachfront Resort 13 17 Beach Avenue block 1146 Lots 6 through 24 this a non-contributing reconstruct Hotel wing and a um rear event wing good evening chairman and uh commission members Keith Davis neat Davis and Goldstein on behalf of Addis Inc I'm joined by George Andy to my right who is the principal of that uh corporate entity Bill MC is our architect we've brought back Margaret Westfield as our historic architect and Franchesca Santoro uh is here as well from the applicant um this is our um I think our third uh hearing with respect to this um application which involves uh first the demolition of certain structures the commission has already acted upon those they have been approved and you memorialized that resolution this evening um we're before you tonight uh concerning the proposed expansion uh of the la mer uh hotel and um we've gone through several iterations of the architectural uh drawings that we've submitted uh we've been into three informal meetings where we've presented uh these designs at the last meeting uh there was discussion about uh the loading area which will uh lead from New Jersey Avenue uh there's existing loading area from that street into the hotel uh but with the proposal that we're presenting we're closing off the existing access point for vehicular traffic on in New Jersey which we Mark as a benefit uh and we'll get to that at site plan uh before the planning board um but Mr MCAS has had an opportunity to revise the last plan uh with respect to the Loading area and I'd like him to walk through uh what we presented originally going back to January and what we're proposing now with the feedback that we received uh from the commission so with that do you need to plug in bill yeah can we connect to the screen while while we're doing that um I would share with the commission that uh we've met in review um I think a couple times but um met in review last time um and the applicant has made an effort um which I think you'll see to address some of the issues that we had brought up before and one of the issues um was a landscape uh plan um and and I think you'll you'll see that there's been significant change or Improvement there but I'm glad you raised that that was something that was uh missing from our initial submission we did submit the landscape plan as part of our resubmission and Mr MCC is going to present that as well uh that's correct so actually the landscape plan was included in the submission set I think was the last two sheets of the set so you'll see that excuse me layout itself and that's more or less what's represented in the slides that we're looking at this evening um following the landscape plan itself was actually the schedule showing the species the quantities and and sizes so I thought excuse me it would be good to I thought it would be good to kind of look at where we are what we started with so um if I go to the first slide this is where we started in the initial scheme in January um this was our initial submission and in that you can see if I kind of focus you towards the lower left of the area you see the elevation this approach we were trying to kind of step back and and kind of be part of the background and not really engage on the street Frontage there and obviously we re we heard your input on that um and tweaked accordingly but just a couple things to point out um you can see what the approach was initially on the hotel Wing to the right on that elevation you can see what the approach was on the loading area to the left on that elevation a single overhead door no real fenestration or ornament on that facade because again we are trying to you know kind of step back and be in the background from the street Frontage also uh to point out the top right of the screen in that plan which you looked at from January you'll see that the loading area was actually up on the setback line um so that consequently changed after we had the benefit of your input in January and then again um in the input we received in the review meeting that we attended later in January um we came up with an alternative version which we looked at in the February review meeting here we started to articulate the facade a little bit on both the hotel and on the uh loading Wing we stepped that loading Wing back almost 20 ft further from where it originally sat and we started to articulate the uh banquet space which is some 75 plus feet I believe off of the off of the property line so um working from the benefit of the feedback that we received in those review meetings in February we then assembled the submission that we looked at last month and in this review or I'm sorry in last month's hearing you'll see that articulation really kind of came to fruition on the hotel so we've stepped down that last piece uh that's closest to New Jersey Avenue so that's three-story section there we've stepped it in as M Mr Becker had pointed out we're starting to approach the dimensions and proportions of the beach house that sits there today introduce the decks introduced sliding doors the column the uh columns with the decks the bracketing and that pent roof um to the left at the loading area we've split the overhead door into two doors we introduced a lower pent roof over those doors and um some fenestration with the Juliet balconies that you see in other portions of the existing property and we felt that was something that would be important to help to tie the property together and kind of give it a little little bit of a cohesive fabric to it so we heard your input last month and we know that um there are concerns with streetscaping there are concerns with massing and so we're here this evening to you to with you to talk about what we've done so in this approach we've refined the fenestration so we're introducing shutters in all the locations that we can we've introduced an additional pent roof that sits at the third floor line and I will show what the impact of that is a little bit further in consecutive slides um but um in addition to that we've introduced a sliding gate uh that would be a can lever biparting sliding gate that sits in front of the loading area doors to try to provide an additional buffer um in addition to just setting the loading area back from from the street Frontage and as you'll see in consecutive slides that sliding gate is also articulated with a trellis overhead and what that does is allow us to continue the landscape buffer at least in some respects all the way across the loading drive so as we start to purs review that in a little more detail um these you'll look at in the submission set I apologize they just are not showing clearly in these slides but this is the approach that we've taken and you'll see it uh with starting with this slide in three dimensions so again you see the planting buffer which is represented in the landscape plan in the submission um one of the things we also introduced along with the sliding gate was it seemed um it seemed the apprpriate to extend a an iron picket fence through the landscape buffer to kind of bring the language of that gate across the property that would be a low fence um we're thinking like a 30in height fence but open to your suggestions um 3ot seemed High to me um but in any case you see the hotel which is more or less as it was in the last hearing that we reviewed um and the banquet space again further back there with the um shutters Incorporated at windows um if we take a look towards the loading area this is where I think you see the impact of what we're trying to do with that loading area um and I'll talk a little bit more about the alternative configurations that we explored there but you can see what introducing this pent roof at the third floor does it really starts to draw Cory between the loading area and its treatment and the hotel area and its treatment and start to draw that dualism between the two and um OB obviously increased the fenestration on the loading area and brought those uh Juliet balconies around so it's not it's not a simple facade uh flat wall treatment we're trying to emphasize the volume and the massing that you see at the hotel Wing at the loading Wing by mimicking those dimensions and carrying that colonade down the side of or I'll say the west side of the loading Wing so um can I just interrupt of course second in front of the fence it's like a platform there yeah ignore that that's goblins in the computer that's not there okay um so this is a view from street level looking at that planting buffer and the buildings um this is a view of the loading area so again you see that biparting fence it's kind of framed with brick pilasters and the TR switch over our is the drive lane the doors for the loading area we have as two individual doors and the approach now is to use sectional Overhead Doors which we're going to which will end up being custom doors so that we have a carriage house look on them uh they've been kind of configured in conjunction with the deck that you see above and the fenestration above that so that you have that Rhythm uh going up the building and again you see the columns on either side the bracketing that is used also at the hotel Wing um Mr Becker you pointed out in the prior hearing that you had concern with the frontage of these two Wings together and that um they amount to some I think 70ish feet uh from end to end and while I I I understand that and I and I in some respects I I I see what you're saying that is a you know it is approximately a 70 or 75 foot width um I do think this perspective view is sh showing you what the impact of stepping that back is and took um our conversation after the hearing to note and try to create a shadow line basically between those volumes to further reinforce that so it does have that feeling of separation between these two wings um so this kind of gives you a sense of what's there today a drive lane that that actually is used by Lam mer for certain deliveries um so we're not in terms of use not very different um and uh you see the planting that's there obviously some of this planting will be disturbed by the construction but the intent is to maintain as much as possible there were trees that are identified in the landscape plan Street trees that will need to be replaced I believe the one that we're looking at on the right is one of them but it's their intent to replace them wherever they are in kind with uh mature trees so continuing through um the fence was something I'm sorry the gate was something that we talked about as a team at length um I think it's important that this provide an additional buffer and layering of space between the walkway and the uh I guess The Pedestrian Network and the building itself um I think that it's doing a good job of that however we recognize that there is a concern of what the loading area looks like how is it treated and so really was a question in our mind as what a better solution would be in the board's mind uh what you're looking at here is an open sliding gate alternatively it could be a close it can have a backing behind it so you have the the articulation and the and the rhythm of the pickets but still the concealing nature of a solid um material behind it that is an option that's available to us with the gate company that we're looking at um and I think I have the shop drawing here which was included in your packet I think our preference is that it be open I think it gives more interest it gives you a layering of space And the fact of the matter is the vast majorities that are coming to this loading area are going to be done behind a closed door it's only um articulated trucks that would need to have the door open that you would see and I believe I'll let I'll let the ownership team talk about the frequency of that but I think we were talking about something about once a week for articulated truck delivery um so streetcape is important um and we've looked at that and so I put this diagram together for you and this kind of shows a composite of our site plant sitting on top of an aerial of the neighborhood um so you have you have Angel of the sea to the left you've got our property obviously from mid block all the way out to the right you have the Residential Properties u in the residential Zone at the top of the screen the Residential Properties I think we would all agree create a pretty strong consistent Street wall they have a pretty uniform setback there um that's not the case on our side of the street and I actually think what we're doing with the building continues to reinforce what's happening on the street already so you have Angel of the SE which is up towards the corner then you have a pretty deep parking lot behind Morning Star then you have the existing Lam mer Hotel Wing projects out and then you have beach house that kind of sits in open space and then there is the existing Lam mer wing and then the park Lam mer parking lot I think the proposed addition that we have here in yellow is reinforcing that streetcape pattern that's already existing in the block and I don't think it is I don't think it has a negative impact on how that streetcape um is viewed at all and of course uh you could see if I just kind of drag the mouse through here you can see where the um where the um landscape buffer is there which exists as a red dash line in that in that diagram so we put this together which I think is helpful um this is a drive down the street and we tried to model on the right uh that's actually Angel Of The Sea on the immediate right that you see there and this kind of gives you a sense of what it's going to be like driving down the street post development so you can see here and I'll just pause it for a minute with hopefully not messing anything up here you can see the landscaping that's there between Angel of the sea and uh morning stars parking lot and if I go uh next slide that's that's kind of that's kind of what's there I mean it's um there's a couple trees there's some nice or ornamental plantings at Angel of the sea um but this is this is we're trying to stay pretty true to what's to what's going on there so as we go down the street you start to experience that undulating Street wall right so Angel of the sea up on the up on the sidewalk on the corner there then it kind of regresses back you see a little bit of Peter Shields you see the Morning Star there um immediately next to Lam mer and as you continue down what you'll notice is the majority of the Landscaping is on our property the buffer is only increasing that but that's the way it is today the majority of the landscape aping in that block is on laam Mer's property and the only Street trees on this side of the block are on Lam Mer's Frontage so that's all continuing and you can see the job that the Landscaping buffer is doing right so the buildings are set back they're buffered with the landscape buffered with the trellis and with the sliding gate here um and it I think it makes an engaging Lush streetscape for this side of the block uh and then again we have here the existing Lam mer property with its buffer to its parking lot so this doesn't exactly mirror the landscape plan correct it's there it actually I I don't I think that would crash my computer this is as close as we could get to being representative of the qu the Landscaping plant is denser than this it is denser than because this is not whatre that's correct but appreciate that you drove down New Jersey at 20 mil an hour the new speed limit um but uh uh we'll get to the Landscaping plan later um when you finish I have some questions so um so we've looked at the existing condition slides um the I know Mr Becker's going to ask um we did look into we don't have to look at that right now this this slide I put in just to give you a sense of again streetscape this is um this gives you a variety of site sections right so the top one we're looking at the existing Hotel Wing at Lam mer on the left and a typical residential property um on the right hand side of the street so you can get a sense of you know this is not a it's not a 50 foot RightWay it's a it's a 90 foot right away so the cartway itself is approximately 55 ft so there's a good amount of space it's it has a Boulevard field to it and I think that the approach that we're taking is appropriate for this this Frontage and this Boulevard um so again in the middle you see the the um site section or the streetcape at the loading dock you see at the bottom what it is at the event center with that long deep uh Garden area and then of course we've got the hotel Wing at the top on this one and then just for comparison uh Angel Of The Sea on the bottom site section here um there's been much talk about the loading area and how it functions and what could be done differently I understand the concern and we did look into it I think I included a diagram in the submission but I thought this would probably even explain it better um what's what you're looking at here is what we're proposing so we basically have two doors fronting the street and what you see there is a turn template for an articulated truck and it basically shows that that truck can back in and turn out and the clearances are there um it's it's it's it's a capable maneuver that can be done without too much well not really any duress given the size of the right away of the street this would be a scenario uh where the truck would be turning in off of New Jersey and you'll see how the red area goes out to the left over the parking that is the amount of space that's required for the truck to turn in and and basically get square to the doors to back up um and what it shows is that area would actually sit underneath the hotel Wing um so we would potentially not potentially in order to affect this alternative we would lose the second floor of the hotel in that area and as well would end up impacting parking um now that's a that's a study that's made to the western side of the property that's correct did you consider an alternative where the service could be done from the Eastern side so um we did not you can see that um you may be able to make that turn with the truck however it the impact of it on the East Side would be the disruption to um parking either one is going to disrupt parking right either either of the study on the west on the East will also disrupt parking the problem that I see with the east side and and I think it probably will be clear here in a minute when this truck so after we bring it in and you back up to uh what I'll what we all call the west side of the loading Wing um and offloads into the building then the movement to turn out you will see um misses the drive so you you don't have the clearance to swing the truck out to get out entry drive and and again you're assuming what 40 50 articulated trucks as opposed to box van and stuff box Vans um box van would probably be able to make that turn they would they may need to maneuver back and forth but certainly would probably be able to make that turn the downside of this is this red area as compared to um what we're proposing with the with the loading directly off New Jersey represents approximately 2200 additional square feet of coverage um which puts us well into a variance at that point which we're trying to avoid um but there's no additional coverage if you were to do it from the East side right from the East side there would not be additional coverage however the truck with the height that it is would be facing into the side of the second floor of the East and there's no height clearance is that is that the problem the the height clearance I believe that you have posted is 7 foot6 or something maybe it's maybe it's eight feet right but we need at least um you know we would need at least 8T or I'll say to be conservative we need seven feet above the tailgate of a truck which is an additional 42 in so um so so a disadvantage of doing it from the East side is that you don't have the head clearance you don't have the head clearance from either side um I would question whether an articulated truck would would be able to make the loop around in the parking lot if you did it on the East side if that makes sense yeah no it it makes some sense it's just that not everybody takes deliveries with trailer trucks see we have a lot of streets in K May which are not negotiated by 40 and 50 foot trailers and the merchants manage to have deliveries in smaller trucks right so um I our design directive from the owner was that we would need to be able to accommodate this truck so that's what we were and clearly clearly New Jersey and straight in from New Jersey is the easiest way to do that what what it what it does though is it is it continues to expose a loading zone more hidden than you had before but it continues to expose a loading zone to the streetscape in New Jersey that's correct yeah I mean that's that's the sort of weighing that but it has to go somewhere I'm sorry it has to go somewhere right it could go on the east or west but but I I understand that we've we've heard the difficulties of doing that so so our thought was to be able to conceal as much of the deliveries as possible by putting it behind a door in the case of a box truck that would be more desirous than having trucks offload outside um and increase the coverage and deal with the continued noise and everything else that comes with the truck deliveries so that that was our motivation to try to pursue the direction that we have it going and could I could I ask approximately I heard one or two times a week is that correct in terms of the the expectations you'd have for for deliveries through that Port correct for the articulated Truck Yeah and otherwise smaller trucks would be using it be more frequent more frequently because it's a lot to carry in just one truck for a week MH okay that's correct um so um that's how we tried to address the concerns from from last month can you uh I well actually I don't think I have the landscape plann on here other than I think we show it in our let's you gave us we did yeah there is to to the extent that those of us who are not experts can actually fathom how effective that is so you can see the landscape plan shown here in the overall site plan um there's number of larger trees that are included in it the landscape plan is um at a minimum I believe it's 10 ft deep in some areas it's almost 30 ft deep um it undulates um with with the species both under both shrubs and under stories and then overstory trees obviously now in in this in this area um and of course everyone knows the difficulty of trying to keep Landscaping alive in a in a salt environment on the beach block and and on the bot back of the beach block um the trees that have survived along New Jersey are largely non-deciduous trees um and they and some of them are really mature and they block a lot of the view of the um um of the establishment um I'm I'm concerned that and I don't know that I have the expertise to interpret the Landscaping plan more than a Layman does but I'm concerned that what may be there may be deciduous in in in in in large proportion and expose the structure in the seasons when the leaves fall as opposed to the Evergreens um there are both Evergreens inde deciduous included in it um The Firm that has prepared it has done work up and down New Jersey coast for decades so you know I kind of I've worked with them before and I trust the firm is Milo and bow yeah I me have no doubt that they have they have expertise and certainly more than each of us individually have expertise what I'm concerned about and I think I made this point before what I'm concerned about is the initial installation um that that to us develops enough of a buffer and I'm also concerned about future I'm concerned that the plan be maintained over time I know it's difficult because of the environment but I don't want to have a situation where we find that this is an acceptable Landscaping plan and then 5 years from now it's not well the site under the municipal land use law when we get to the planning board level there's an obligation to maintain Landscaping pursuant to a meance guarantee for a minimum of two years yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm interested in a lot longer than that I'm interested in That's the Law no what I'm interested I think I said before what I'm interested in is when we get a satisfactory Landscaping plan here that we can approve and recommend I'm interested in having that plan run as a covenant with the land that is not something that the applicant is amendable to doing it it is something we've done before if it's something that comes up in this applicant has I said it's something we have done as a commission before I I'm not saying that you Haven an asked for it and maybe it's been offered I'm just saying I don't believe this applicant well that that applicant should understand then that that may be a condition to our approval I'm I do not know that this commission has the authority to do that it it certainly does okay and and I don't have to speak to that but our Council can speak to it yeah I think uh the board certainly the appearance of the Yards Landscaping is a streetcape item it's in the standards um so to the extent that there is a condition necessary to secure uh the appearance of the streetcape I think that that's a reasonable condition a condition I think would be amendable that was not the comment the comment was a covenant that's that's an enforcement mechanism for the condition well conditions are they are enforcable well Mr Davis you you've been before the board where one of the conditions is that it's incorporated into a restriction that runs with the land I've seen that but I've approvals run with the land I've also land's approvals run with the land and if there's a condition it's enforcable by if it's in the context of a site plan approval it's not what we're doing here yeah then it's enforcable by the zoning officer of the community to enforce those terms and conditions and and that may be something that arises in the site plan approval process um we have an obligation to adhere to the landscape plan that has been presented to this commission and to the planning board it's the same plan um I just relayed that there is a legal maintenance guarantee requirement for a minimum period of two years um but if there are trees that die after that two-year period of time does the city have enforcement abilities to require the replanting of that tree they do and then the the applicant will have to do that there there have been instances where where covenants have been given and where they have not been adhered to and and where the alternative turns out to be a fine or a penalty um I'm not interested in fines and penalties I'm interested in an enforcable Covenant that runs with the land that is capable of specific performance to get that Landscaping plan maintained simple as that can I clarify one thing so is the concern buffer or what we're going to put in there well I I I said I don't know that I have the expertise to evaluate well your your Landscaping plan I hope it's a good full one that's what I'd expect you know to create the buffer what I'm concerned about as after we think that the buffer is satisfactory what I'm concerned about is that there be a means to enforce it for the long term uh we're I mean our intent is to provide as much puffer buffer as possible we have to live with our neighbors we're not trying to upset anybody I mean I don't think there's anybody that does as well of a job for I don't I don't question your intention today what what I'm saying is I think that this is a significant um a significant Improvement it's important to protect the Residential Properties on the other side of New Jersey I think a landscaping buffer is important to do that I think this is a major Landscaping plan it's one of the largest I've seen and and I think in order to maintain it uh we need to do something more than we normally do which is to have you promise and then worry about how we're going to enforce that prom promise I'd like to have that enforcement mechanism articulated in advance that's why I say it runs with the land and the city has the ability to enforce it by specific performance not by penalties not by coming after you with citations but to have a court order you to do that that's what specific performance with land is about and that's what I'm aiming at and if and if it's maintained and there's never a problem then there's never a problem with Covenant it's just a matter whether you attach it to the land or not as opposed to promise familiar with with the promise familiar promise of Edis Inc is a corporate promise made by a limited liability institution and and and and a judgment against it produces whatever damages for example penalties but a a covenant that runs with the land is enforcable to have things done with respect to the land which means maintain the maintain the plan we've done nothing but maintain and we promise to do that then you shouldn't have a problem with I have no problem that it is a burden on the chain of title absolutely and my legal opinion is that it extends well beyond this Comm with all due respect he your concern extends Beyond this commission's Powers if you want to make that recommendation to the planning board and we discuss that in the context of a planning board site plan approval we will do that we haven't even had a hearing I'm only one commissioner here and my colleagues will determine what they intend to articulate for their their conditions for approval I I assume we want to move this application along because it's our purpose to try and get the best possible solution but my personal view is it needs teeth to be enforced and I may be just one person out of out of all of our commissioners who are saying that but that's my point of view understood heard from you you know my opinion and hear from everybody else I just wanted that one reminder regarding the trees is that one of the Commissioners brought up at the last meeting and I believe you accepted it was that any trees planted would be full size specimen mature trees as opposed to like seedlings so I believe the that's reflected is shown on so the screeny begins immediately PL planning okay and and I wish Jake that I had the ability to actually figure that out the pictures look really good all right Bill yes thank you for an excellent presentation thank you you made it very clear visuals are comprehensible and depict I think a reasonable sense of the reality of what it'll be you've also gone to Great Lengths at least this is now I think the fifth iteration of this I've seen to to reduce the scale not only of that 70 foot width by setting it back but it's the vertical Dimension that you've also addressed so the scale and the mass of that wall at the street from my perspective has been significantly mitigated I only have one question yes you showed us turning radi and required clearances for 40 to 50 foot articulated truck is that correct correct so my question is this why then is the loading dock only 34 feet deep clear inside meaning you could only fit a 30ft truck inside of the service area the service area the actual enclosed area yes is size for a 36 foot well 35 foot truck so that's the that's the way it's been sized so what that means then is those deliveries of the 40 and 50 foot articulated trucks the cab of the truck will actually be sitting outside of that's correct the loading dock that's correct so that's a totally different understanding than what I had before whereby the argument was that all the loading would be behind closed doors so I'm very surprised by that so I thought we were clear with that all along but that we figured the frequency with that articulated truck was such that it's not easy to accommodate that within the footprint of the building and accommodate everything else that needs to fit within a realistic program for the property so for the frequency of those trucks we felt it was a reasonable uh tradeoff that that one day a week that the truck comes it's going to sit out for whatever the length of time it is for it to unload now it's sitting out behind a biparting gate but the vast majority of those deliveries are going to be behind the the doors so just so I'm understanding yep that means that there are significantly more deliveries at what kind of frequency of let's say 34 35 foot trucks which I don't think will fit in the garage but that's okay let's just for argument sake how often would those one to two one to two yeah one to two yeah correct per day no per week per week well then this is what I this is why I'm so confused because all of the maneuverability diagrams were based upon and your argument actually is fueled by the allowance for clearances of a 40 to 50 foot articulated truck now I'm hearing though that your deliveries are once a week by 30 to 40 foot trucks actually it has to be less than 40 because the garage will only accommodate at most 34 feet based upon the dimensions that I'm scaling from your drawings so now I'm still confused why then are we seeing an argument for accommodating a 40 to 50 foot articulated truck when you can't accommodate that within the within the delivery garage I'm very confused so if I can go to so our design directive has been to accommodate the deliveries that are coming to the property so that meant 30 to 4 30 well we used the 35ft truck that we were planning with so um this is designed so that a 3 5ot truck can fit inside the loading area you can close the door you can offload it so the truck whose turning radius is depicted there appears to me to be that is that is a articulated truck correct that's bigger than a 35 correct so you based all of your clearances and your red T the maneuvering space is based off of the biggest truck that's why I'm confused why would you do that if you can only accommodate a 34t truck he can still accommodate the large it just proves it just proves that the nose of the truck sticks out into New Jersey that's what it proves it proves it sticks out past the gate it sticks out be it sticks out beyond the closing doors behind the be my understanding was maybe I just misinterpreted what you were telling us that all the deliveries once the truck pulls in behind the gate and into the garage the door closes the truck is no longer visible from the street for the majority of deliveries but not all the delivery well but then now I'm more confused because I asked about that and you said you only going to have one or so deliveries a week two with the larger trucks and how many and I asked that specifically how many of the smaller trucks how many how often is that delivery you get them M of time on the side though but that you only need the the drive that we're talking about you need two deliveries per week for the larger trucks what about the regular trucks that will actually fit in the garage how often does that happen regular box trucks yeah they go right in in how often that was my question daily it could be I mean those those of us who seen Lam mer in action see trucks on and off there I mean it's a it's a it's a business with a lot of trucks essentially that leads me to my final sort of statement I think I've asked enough questions I Now understand that I was misinterpreting and I think that maybe what was presented here is is is um questionable on page 52 of our standards explicitly States garage doors are not appropriate when visible directly from public rights of way so I understand all the design restraints design is a tricky thing right you're always managing restraints and activating forces it occurs to me that if one took upon oneself to believe that this statement in our standards was as irrefutable as gravity how would you design it in other words words this cannot be violated what would that look like and I'm it's occurs to me that that might be a really cool design challenge a solid gate in front of it well that's I think what they're presenting that was an alternative correct look that yep got it okay thank you and I think your testimony was we leave that to the board the board prefer a solid gate as opposed to um a a gate that we prefer that provides openness we defer to the commission on that uh we have bogg down here on one aspect that's sort of half ours uh but a little bit more planning board when it comes to moving vehicles around that's in their interpretation and if they wanted to put limitations on that I I think they could um my experience in boards over the years is one special arrangements are now we'll let you do this but we're going to say that in the future you can't ever change that and the enforcement on those things and I've seen it from properties I've even owned that it's it's pretty much forgotten when those plans go up on the dusty shelf and unless a neighbor really gets upset and drags them back out there's not an ongoing enforcement uh I think our board and other boards have also looked at the track record of applicants and I have to say uh Gus Andy and his family some of the absolute best Landscaping of any hotel in town and I would imagine that that would be kept up so I think that goes into my field for uh giving an approval on it uh and if the planning board gets as upset as some of us are about the uh the movement of the trucks there that could be changed when I look at streets in town that have many restaurants on them Jackson Columbia hu Street uh the biggest Cisco trucks in the world are coming up our streets stopping and rarely staying more than 15 minutes at the most to you know do their unloading uh so I I don't think well it would be unusual for a lot of trucks to be in on New Jersey it's not it's not a commercial Zone it's a residential Zone and and Lam Mer's trucks are often on Pittsburgh um which is a commercial thoroughfare so there are going to be more trucks on New Jersey because there's a there's a big new event center and there's going to be more trucks there my concern has really never been with respect to the the traffic flow and and and the the neighbors certainly have the ability to to to take their views elsewhere it has been with respect to the derogation of the streetcape that's posed by the the the the north facing loading zone and My Hope was that it could be designed to face to the east I don't see it going to the West given the the desire to have the Landscaping buffer it seems like that is not a practical thing to do without disassembling the existing hotel if I'm understanding correctly um and that is why I I can you know I can reconcile myself to to a to a New Jersey facing entrance provided it's well enough masked but and that's why I focus on so heavily on the Landscaping plan mhm and and well it may be that the that that Lam mer has a reputation for great Landscaping I'd like that to be something that goes on as long as it has to to protect the people on the north side of New Jersey I don't think you could make that work oh I I think you can and and that's why I would insist that it run with the land and and that we enforceable by somebody in this city the shade tree commission or the or the historic preservation commission that would be my my view I'm not I'm not derating the current plan doesn't exist and even what it does ex what we do have in a way of codes in the town are very very difficult uh you know I I know what they go through when there's a code violation and all the work that's you know Tom I'm not I'm not addressing the the probability that somebody's going to make a complaint what I'm addressing is the enforcement mechanism when that complaint is made we have seen time and time again that enforcement if it takes place doesn't necessarily produce an adequate remedy and and that's what I'm saying here a a landscaping plan which fails to be carried forward needs an adequate remedy I I don't want to say it anymore I I have a follow-up comment to that and it's just a reminder of where we are in the process right now um procedurally you guys are here for you guys the La Mer are here for conceptual approval right because you're going to go to the planning board right and you're trying to flush out the h PC's comments which by the way will be communicated to the planning board in writing they know that the board knows that now that's part of a process in 2024 is that they're going to get a document from us with in black and white what our concerns are it provided approval is given um and Landscaping is 100% going to be part of their discussion as well they have to provide a landscaping plan this is a preview of what you're presenting to the planning board is that correct Mr Davis that is correct has it you know that in our code that is part of what they consider um and it's going to be part of their presentation and the planning board's going to have the opportunity to impose conditions my concern right now is not the legality of imposing a condition it's just where we are in the process right now so what I would suggest if if this Landscaping I I've heard this since the first time this application start started that the way that this appears on New Jersey Avenue it it it provides a buffer an interruption uh to the commercial forward aspects of the site versus the residential in that area and that's why I think this Landscaping is so important and and to preserve it that makes a lot of sense and that that is and the idea that that would continue and there would be a mechanism for enforcement there are mechanisms outside of the HPC right now but what the HPC can do and what I would recommend if that's a concern is to include that as part of the recommendation to the planning board that they if if this board were to approve uh and conceptual that the main focus of that was that this be preserved in some way and that the Landscaping is an essential part of any approval that would be um offered by the HPC at this level I just the proceed it's not the legality of the condition it's just where we are in the process Mr Testa so I I agree that I I think there's actually a lot of Authority for what a board can put out there to pres I don't think this is the time to test that either I think we're at conceptual approval here the applicant should have the opportunity to go forward if we can couch the way it can go forward that would be fine but I I just wanted to have it clear that um that to me Landscaping is absolutely right now the key to the successful buffer and there's some overlap between the HPC and the planning board on that we the HPC considers Landscaping the planning board considers it as well as the zoning board I just think that procedurally we can put those concerns uh face forward in the writing that ends up going to the planning board if we get there I will make a motion that we offer conceptual approval expressing to the planning board our concerns about a landscaping plan that is assured to be lasting more than the required two years uh approved by the planning board well um second I certainly agree that there should be conditions and and and recommendations as Council has stated um I'm not sure I would write them exactly like that but I I will leave it to the you to to the report writer well seemed like the Landscaping was the only real is that we were well I think well I think we're also coming back to how to best Shield those doors from New Jersey Avenue there's been a proposal for a couple of kinds of gates I think we're we're we're at the point where where it appears that there has to be a New Jersey entrance for the loading zone absent removing parts of the building which can't be done so so we have a loading zone in in facing New Jersey and the question is how to now have the best buffer and barrier MH from from the street we should also comment about whether we want to have a solid gate or exactly I will add to my motion that we uh approve it with the white iron gate rather than a solid gate I I think I think a solid G vote on that it's the same gate but it's back would would buffer yeah I mean is it the the gates that were shown show a very pretty see-through Arrangement where I can see the doors I don't want to see the doors I don't think the neighbors want to see the doors I I think they want to see a barrier there and and plenty of landscaping around it um so so maybe a little premature to well I just don't like solid barriers on sidewalks I think sidewalk in Kate May the whole idea that you're seeing nice things inside through the landscape it's a solid gate that would be shielding dock doors although the gate is back 20t from the sidewalk I mean I I I'd like it to be a surprise what's on the other side of those doors and not um to to look through them and see the loading dock why don't we leave that for our final approval then well fine but I'm saying you really shouldn't be articulating that as a condition to the conceptional approval I why not I didn't you did I got forced into okay all right all right so we we have on the table the motion of conditional approval here con conceptual approval what might be helpful Jim as since you feel so strongly about it as you make a motion well I would make the motion that the applicant be given um conceptual approval for the application as submitted with the conditions that um given the acceptance of the plan with with um the loading uh dock shown on New Jersey that there be uh coverage of that um that those uh doors with a solid gate uh as was shown in the Alternatives here uh and and uh and and I it maybe a little premature in the sense that um we've talked about Landscaping we've talked about the the doors I don't know is anybody want to talk about the rest of the of the you didn't because my second piece second piece would be a motion with respect to the Landscaping plan chairman if I may there is a motion any second on the table uh on the floor so I maybe that has to be rescinded first I just want to make sure the process I don't believe that motion was ever completed hasn't been that that motion wasn't completed been voted on it was seconded by Miss pagno I did fine so withdraw it can I make a suggestion on that motion just the framing of it I I on the Landscaping element I think is it the board's intention that the Landscaping be preserved to the fullest extent of the law I I think it's beyond that well I well I can't go much further than the fullest extent of the law well we talked about the two years and we talked about well I I'm I'm I'm what I'm saying is I'm that's the minimum that may be the minimum here there may be some maintenance or performance guarantee issues what I'm saying is and I I said this earlier the the flexibility to impose reasonable conditions to assure that the basis for approval is secured and reinforced I'm saying that it could go beyond that so what I'm saying for purposes of tonight conceptual only getting to the planning board stage and knowing that this applicant is going to have to come back for final what if we just frame it as to the the Landscaping should be prefer preserved to the fullest extent permitted by law and I will I will add that to my motion the wording that you're giving I'll change the second part of my motion Mr Davis would you object to that language no to the fullest extent alone I'm sorry with that solic could you repeat that the the Landscaping in this plan as part of this motion this is a this is a motion everybody could like because the fullest extent of the law is up to your view your view my view no it's up to the statute no the no it's not up to just statutes no Court decisions rules regulations statutes it's a whole bunch of stuff so so it's made it's being made broadly to advance your application that's that's not why it's being made the the reason I frame that is because it it sounds I don't have the book in front of me right now I understand the board's concern concern that that landscape buffer should be preserved if the fullest extent of the law may be perpetuity and that's what I'm shooting for but I grant I grant you that your wording allows me that and that's and that's sort of where I'm putting my eggs and and the the motion can be and if the law permits perpetuity it would be perpetuity I'm just I'm just trying to get us clear for the record um so we can move on to the next thing that was that was the purpose can we kind of restate your motion if you want to continue to make it um the first part of my motion was I would like to give conceptual approval to the application uh with the only consideration being in the words of our solicitor that the Landscaping plan be preserved for as long as the law would allow hopefully for uh perpetuity perpetuity perpetuity perpetu forever Tom Forever okay and and let's go let's approach the can I second it again you can but I second it there's there's a gate there's a gate issue there's a there's a service there's a service entrance acceptance by us on New Jersey but with a gate issue now okay so and Tom and I will add to my motion that we do prefer to have a solid Woodgate uh with designs yet to be presented to us I think we can do better than what you were showing I I I think don't think I well the presentation gave us an alternative to back up the gate that was presented with a solid and I and I think that's what the motion should I could support the solid gate no you said we approve a solid gate with the final design of that gate to yet to be approved well they present we've got to come back for fun yeah yeah you're saying you want some improvements to the gate that we showed I think you if you want a solid gate I think it could be you know you're sort of looked like here's a solid gate you're not going to like this uh but I think it could be done better yeah because so we can get the gate that we want we we'll address that a final okay okay that's my motion poor Judy I'll second it it's okay Chris do you do you want the third time just for the record do you want to reiterate the motion for all of us before I take a roll call and before you take the roll call because it's a motion it's been made and seconded it's still subject to some debate I have only one last question and it's not to the applicant it's to my fellow Commissioners do all of you have a good grasp on how that landscape plan really is works have you looked at it are you satisfied with it in in review we we did spend time looking at um the plan um the size of the trees and um and well we're not expert at that but it it's it goes beyond some saplings or something it it is is is it out is it out of the question that we retain an independent Landscaping contractor to evaluate it I think that's planning board well if you have the jurisdiction to review the landscape plan and accept it you should have the ability to ask an expert to evaluate it if you want I I just feel that that what I see looks pretty good but what I read I can't I can't necessarily get there by what I'm reading in terms of the species and their heights their sizes and their density so I'm I I confess I'm just not capable of of getting there looking at the articulation the pictures look really good I mean it wouldn't be the first time that you know that I failed in that respect but I would just add that's a decision obviously you can make but this application is going to be reviewed by Craig hurles a palan Associates on behalf of the planning board he is a certified Municipal engineer he's a professional engineer he's a professional planner and he is going to review the landscape plan and I'm sure those reports that he prepares can be submitted to the commission for its review if you want again you didn't ask me the question I probably should get my mouth shut but that's a decision you can make of course but you are going to have that process take place before the planning board it was a question I was posing to my fellow Commissioners I consider the option still open so am I to repeat the motion no I think we're there's no more debate on it well I just just so we're clear the gate the the gate's going to be covered solid yeah yeah we approving solid gate the designed of which has yet been approved okay okay it's a two-part motion then the first about the Landscaping which we beat a dead horse on and then uh the the solid gate with the final design to be determined I don't I don't think we're capable of beating that one any further okay motion by Mr Carol seconded by Miss bisagno Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes and particularly because all of the articulations that you've gone through thus far has shown me in particular that it's all been done in very good faith now that I understand that there will be a truck sticking out of those doors sometimes which I didn't understand before I don't want that gate to be solid but now the truck's sticking out I do so I'm sure with the same intent that you've had in all these iterations that you'll come up with a great solution to also make that not visible Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes um because I believe this is the best possible compromise we can get it serves the applicant and serves the community Miss bagno yes and I'd like to say something many years ago in what was then Victorian Village shopping center and my father's office he married Gus and a foo Andy and Gus did not have a room with him so my father lent his his and he always teased about that years to come but they came and they built and they prospered and they have had a profound effect your family generationally speaking on this town and while I believe we must memorialize the things about the plans I know that you are people of your word and and that will continue to try to do all the best that you can for this city so I just wanted to say that Miss Wilson stck um yes I approve but I also wanted to make a comment about the frequency of the articulated trucks and the impact of articulated trucks in a residential street uh because I live on Congress Street and I I have a lot of experience even with my car being hit by one that couldn't quite make the curve um so I think that while we're spending a lot of time talking about Landscaping um and whether when the trucks are there you can see them I think the frequency of delivery the intensity of truck um activity is also a concern that I hope the planning board will very seriously consider so I I say yes with that consideration thank you thank you thank you thank you appreciate everybody's uh work on this through the informal process thank you we'll be seeing you again yes um it's 20 minutes to 8 uh we're going to take a 5 minute break um so uh try to be back here at a quarter of or just a minute past that what one spe so yes watch thank you for e EXP suff spe than that look kind a catastrophe hello okay it it's showing 11 minutes to 8 and we are we convened um first item of new business to and Carol 921 Stockton Avenue block 1082 lot 14.01 this is a contributing property of detached garage Demolition and then following on that is um the same applicant um with um building a a contributing uh a property building a new detached garage we I mention it so we don't have to be confused about what we're trying to accomplish but we go through the nine points of demolition first and then we'll have a a motion and a vote on whether to approve the tear down okay so you're up do you wish for me to review the photographs prior to the nine points of the existing garage I'm sorry could you introduce yourself please okay my name is Doug goosman I'm with uh the Highland group registered architect the the nine points okay are pretty clear yes and so if you read the nine points and make a brief statement about it I think that would suffice and if the pictures help you it's up to you okay well the existing U is a historic architectural cultural and a aesthetic significance uh based upon the property report uh it identifies that this garage uh was constructed between 1987 and 2002 therefore uh the existing uh garage is uh framed with uh contemporary uh means and methods and Exhibits no historic uh properties to its uh uh structure is the current and potential use of the purpose uh permitted by the chapter uh the existing ing structure is a uh two-car garage and is allowed and uh and the proposed new structure which is not part of this would also uh serve and be uh permitted is importance to the m municipality and the extent uh to which the historic and Architectural value is such that it is removal would be detrimental to the Integrity of the historic property or District in the public interest I'm going to re iterate to the fact that this uh structure is not historic in nature to the fact that it was uh constructed in the uh 80s to 2000s to the extent to which it is of such old unusual uncommon design craftsmans ship texture or materials that it could not be reproduced and be could not be re reproduced or could be reproduced only with great diffic difficulty I'm going to reiterate that this uh is an a uh structure structure that is made of contemporary uh means and methods and it could uh actually be reconstructed uh the way that it is uh currently done without any difficulty to the extent which uh in its retention this uh would increase property values promote business create new positions attract tourists and such uh this uh has no particular redeeming value to the public at large and toward historians and uh such uh tourist attractions uh being the fact that is a garage that was not that is not historic in nature and was built in the 80s the impact of its removal upon the historic district it's a nice Gage it it actually has some attractive features to it uh it's uh uh was uh constructed similar to The Dutch uh Revival structure it's there however uh it it's removal won't have any impact on the historic district to the fact that is not historic in nature uh itself the structural soundness Integrity of the building and economical feasibility of restoring uh is prohib well or rehabbing the structure as to comply with the requirements of the applicable building codes uh there the building is structurally sound uh there is nothing uh that requires it to necessarily be uh to have it removed because of the structure itself um there thank you and then number eight and nine are non right um do I have a motion the application for demolition [Applause] second motion by Mr T Testa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes I would just like to point out that the roof line of the garage and the house and the double windows are what you've been hearing us try to encourage tonight with other these things to make accessory properties uh you know conform to the design of the main house so I'm sure and I know you're going to do that on the new one thank you on the cover sheet even and I vote Yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strk yes thank you M we can ask him Mr Gusman your your clients are not here tonight correct that is correct okay have they authorized you to to appear tonight they have okay just need to make that clear for the record and also as a condition of any any approval offered by this board the clients would have to uh ratify anything that you do tonight post hearing okay you have any objection to that I do not okay and you've been in contact with your clients today I have okay thank you MH so for the uh second application is for a new detached garage um the site plan uh on c002 illustrates where the existing garage is presently you'll see that this is a through Street to where it has Frontage on both Stockton and on Kerney uh the applicant uh essentially wants to uh provide more outdoor living space between the principal structure and the garage and so essentially what we're proposing is uh pushing the garage the new garage uh 18 ft uh towards Kerney Avenue and that is rep on c005 the plot plan and I apologize for the typo it does not say stock it says kery on both roads yeah so we do not have two metaphysical issue there yeah we we do have a stocked in on one side uh so you can see the dash line of the uh Pro uh the existing garage to be uh removed and the uh outline of the proposed new garage the proposed new garage is uh is a two-car garage which is uh shown in floor plans on 006 essentially uh the uh sorry the uh layout of the first floor is uh for two vehicles vehicles and then uh a half Bay uh uh for essentially uh the storage of their bicycles and outdoor and activity uh uh equipment they have uh access to a open attic with a open stair that leads you up to the attic space and off that attic space is a porch that faces the uh interior um uh space between the principal structure and the garage looking at the building uh exterior of the front elevation and also I'm going to say the west elevation uh if uh the existing house has a Dutch colonial revival uh aesthetic and so we have replicated that on the two n Gables with the Dutch Colonial and then difficult to see but on the main principal structure on the side they have three Dormers and of the three Dormers they have the center Dormer is a double Dormer and the two Dormers beside them are single Dormers and they uh have a crown U molding uh uh creating the pant above the Dormer the also which you can see in the property report there are uh deep EES and the Deep Eaves have a uh hip uh Eve roof that goes around the perimeter of the building and so that same detail is replicated on the uh four sides of the garage the windows have a carriage house uh two on three um uh window uh which is replicated in all the double hung Windows uh that are portrayed and then we have a carriage house style uh double door uh on the front as far as the materials go the uh exterior sighting of the existing house is wood clapboard that is painted uh the proposal here is to replicate the same profile of the wood a clapboard and uh also have it painted the same color similarly the existing house has an asphalt roof and the intention is to have an asphalt roof that matches the existing roof as well uh existing wood trim of the house and our existing wood trim of this uh meaning the corner trims at the Dormers and at the corners of the house are to be to match the existing house and the existing house has a stucko uh um water course where this is proposed to have a stucko water course um there is a tusin uh columns that are uh on the main house that face Stockton Avenue so the intention is to replicate the tusin uh Capital uh on the uh supporting the canal or supporting the covered uh deck area in the rear and then using turned uh wood spindles uh at the deck above uh for the porch and then a low seam uh metal seam roof on the rear uh deck covering and then the intention is to have a Carriage House barn door in the rear that is able to open up so the concept is uh it's a rainy day that they have the ability to go inside the garage and still be be able to entertain and and utilize uh the indoor outdoor uh space not but not least uh we um we have uh Lantern style uh light fixtures uh uh that are identified on the rear and the side entrance uh to the house the windows and doors are proposed to be Marvin Windows uh which are in all wood window I think I ran out is that it I think that's it um how many square feet are on the second floor here I'm going to say it's 30 by 24 I can do the math 6 650 so so 7 is close enough this um and the intent of this second floor is what primarily for storage and so you have a balcony with spindles for for well I'm sure that entertain the storage no absolutely not uh the the intention was two things uh one is we wanted to this is going to be part of the backyard and so we're bringing part of the um metal roof and uh aesthetic that is on the front of the house onto the rear of this house and I'm not naive that yes I'm sure at some point in time that there's going to be uh activities on that second floor but the intention is that it is for storage but it's also to bring a design aesthetic to the rear yard is the intention is it is it uh heated in air conditioned it is not is there a bathroom planned there is no bathroom planned it is actually appreciably less than 30 by 24 because the cut out of the open space plus the stair on the second floor yes absolutely and the three Dormers yes that you know potenti may be used for entertaining so that beol or in there absolutely not uh IND I indicated there I I could see children being able to go up there when it's raining or something to that fact and there's uh I don't know fball well it might be might be a place for a party on a rainy day yeah I but we we recognize that no habitable space is permitted uh in this space so that therefore there is no bathroom facilities uh and so electricity but no plumbing and and no yeah okay and there will not be a conditioned space either I'm sure you realize why those questions are asked because it cannot be turned into it cannot be turned into an apartment or something to that effect and it has absolutely no intentions of that being done I'll go to a much smaller matter your garage doors uh appear to have the windows one very large panel and then a smaller panel whereas slightly more traditional would be Windows panel panel panel like three panels okay or have one big panel with cross cutting uh supports in it like a stick style house that like the old ground but the old garage has so I could you maybe uh do one of the other of those so you yes is there a preferred strange looking is there a preference of a crisscross over the equal panels I think the crisscross would look pretty good with that style of house that because you are picking up some of the Dutch Colonial and I think that kind of garage door was pretty popular during that period chis cross would also be consistant with the Barn Door yes and it's acceptable to have the windows above yes okay yeah so are you Douglas I am Douglas great so I only have two questions and the first is actually for my fellow Commissioners here so we one of the things that is required by our standards when there's a front yard there's no parking permitted in the front yard this is an anomalous condition because it's actually a backyard which is a front yard on kiery and since there is no house back there my question when I looked at the site today is that the adjacent house to the right as you're facing from Kierney has a pretty clear front edge the one to the left is almost all the way out to the sidewalk but the one to the right is recess summon I'm wondering whether this fifth parking space is there a way to accommodate that and would we require that to be accommodated behind the face of the adjacent property since there's no house this is an anomalous condition so it's a question to my to you guys well I think that's going to be the occasional extra car that needs to get off the street like we see on our streets all the time where they are parked uh Beyond where they should be parked because it's summer and it's crowded because I can't see many cars you're going to have to move here if you want to get you do that but I just want I I don't think there's any way this can can be construed as front yard parking that's I think where you were going at to me it's it's a back it's a backyard as far as the Orient I mean basically when we work coming down is creating a single drive and then essentially flaring out so you could get into the second parking space and you get a car parked back in there as well by the way so um my only other the only other question I have is there's a note on the drawing on the site plan on hpc5 where on the back of the existing house it says existing steps and Landing reconfigure so do we have any drawings or documentation of what that will look like to ensure that it matches with in the existing house no that would be something we would need to see yes and simply because we have a representative of um an officer who in the field verifies that what is being done in the field actually aligns with what was submitted approved we would just need to see some documentation of right which Our intention is we're going to do construction drawings upon with hopeful consent uh and then uh right now you can see it on kind of on the asilt here there's a landing you go down to it's on c002 okay and it's just in plan view problem is though is that your application is marked final and it sounds like what you're doing is conceptu conceptual that's correct Al it is a conceptual submission well could couldn't it be final subject to the submission of the final construction I would be absolutely fine with that yes so Mr chairman would that be acceptable for us to approve this and approve proove that piece of that small piece of the work in review well I I think we should see the construction plans um on this um but we have we have gone final before have we not with with a condition that full construction plans be supplied even though they should have been supplied with a final well I perhaps I'm the only it's a garage yeah I know and as far as the steps go the intention is that there are existing turned balls on the front and this is going to be seen from the side as being uh associated with the front so that's those same turn Ballers are going to be utilized on that side uh I mean steps as well as that that eliminates my ballister question a landscaping plan and we have a new outdoor grill encounter actually the back of the house is really going to be because C would you turn on your mic Kevin sorry my apologies if you look at c002 versus c005 m you can see there's there is some looks like some changes being made really to the back of the house to create that Landing it comes out even to the outside of the bay bay there and you know on the on c002 it doesn't come close to that so there's a there's a new Landing that's placed in there then the stairs and that changes in turn that little room that's next in that has what looks like a sink and a couple of other things in it so there's there are some changes to the that's the that's all existing if I could clarify so yes you are right The Landing is proposed to go from the single uh perpendicular window to the end to the end of the of the bay window so it's going out approximately 18 inches deeper than it currently is and then the intention is then to do a straight run into the rear yard where currently there's kind of an L-shaped drop off at the bottom of the bay window and so that was to then allow for the P patio to be expanded so you're extending the deck out to the face of the bay window correct rotating the first run of stairs 9 so it's a single R so it's a single straight run to see that okay there are things that will come into play there of course right what what are the materials of the of the steps and and the risers and railings and the spindles okay M I would I would U I would suggest we table this until we have a completed plan um construction plan yeah just for my own learning would we also need to understand like the materials that are going to be used for the the new pavers that are to be added because that I don't think I don't see any of that in there so there's Mr chairman could propose approving this as and the final review seeing those materials in details I we keep it moving I don't think we have any big worries with this I just we want to detail but would the would the additions to the rear of the property be in this application I don't see any addressing that no it seems like it's there and are we going to approve it somehow with it not without all the pl the rear of the main house yes that's why I say conceptual based on detailing changes to the house the Landscaping the pavers the stairs and but it Warren was saying uh let's table it and John said why don't we give uh conceptual approval knowing the applicant's going to come back with those details and again the ctual approval will be for the additions to the rear of the house as well yeah actually could you give final approval for the construction of the garage and then any changes made to the back of the house be a totally separate application that's now it would it would really be better to table this thing and just have it come back one more for final just asking the question I I don't know I don't the process that is that a motion Jim well no I mean we seem to be have three Alternatives and I was just thinking it it it's it's cated here as an application for garage but there's other stuff going on in it and and maybe the best thing to do would be to table it and have you resubmit we just put it into suspension you resubmit and finalize all the other things give us the construction drawings and it comes out as a final approval next time you show up and on that Mr Gman based on the comments that you're hearing tonight is it your intent the applicant's intent to sort of process all this and come hopefully come back maybe next month or in a meeting in the near future to to wipe out and address all of the comments and the propos because I didn't realize we were talking about pavers and stairs in the back either I me it just says garage and to the back of the house so and there's Landscaping no there's a lot here there's a lot yeah I would suggest that this is a maybe something that can happen at A Tuesday meeting Tuesday morning meeting to flush out the application a little bit I think I think what we're going to do is simply make a motion to table let him complete the application the way he wants to and then we'll hear it again yeah we'll just just has to agree on the 45 days I make a motion to table the application wait a minute let him understand what he's doing but then I will bring construction drawings for everything so essentially I'm hearing as far as the garage goes it sounds like conceptually we're good with the garage um and then we'll bring a set of construction drawings that will also have the Civil work that identifies the walkways and the pavers and and the lightscaping the steps so that it is a complete application with respect to all the things you want to do that's correct which okay which was my intention uh was to get approval of the garage prior to doing the construction drawings because I didn't want to do the construction drawings and have you come back and well first of all you could have said you can't knock down the garage right true but but you but you succeeded there right but but my point is so we have not done any construction drawings and and you would need them for final anyway correct right so why not just table now and you have to agree to wave the 45 days I don't know what that means so oh I there's there's a time for decision for the HPC to make a decision you you consent to that time period being waved so that we can come back and hear a uh complete application I mean we we would intend to do this promptly but you would the law requires us to automatically prove it if we don't get to it so you wave that I I would I would say too there's an argument here that it's an incomplete application at this point too which avoids that but you're you're going to wave the time for decision with a plan to submit a complete application come back and and hear it at a uh subsequent meeting next month yes please okay yeah so so I would I would move to table this application second I would just like to make one other comment too I mean I I felt that the existing garage really perfectly complemented the house and that the Gable was facing the rear you saw of the Gable on the main house and by turning it around it kind of loses that complimentary aspect and I don't know whether there would be some consideration to turn it around to where you could see the gam apparently not enough well it would I I hear what you're saying but but the width of the garage if you did the Dutch Gable on that side now it distorts the proportions of the Dutch Gable whereas uh compositionally works better on the shorter side and and the longer side lends itself to the Dormers being put into the uh roof so my point was the existing was very nice though yeah I don't think there's been a second to the motion table has he did excellent motion by Mr test is seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes however I would like to just make one other um comment there appears to be a substantial tree that's being removed for this um development and I think that we would want to know why that why that's happening so okay and my answer is yes yeah and I recognize that and I was expecting that question okay good Mr griman also on that you understand that to take that down you'd have to go to the Shader commission as well well correct uh I'm going to say yes okay FYI that's HPC doesn't hand out tree removal need to be aware that yeah and and that is there are mature trees on this lot this happens to be kind of a sapling or something that's kind of in the way to where it's not one of the there's a lot of really beautiful mature trees on this lot and this is not one of those so that's why we were considering but if it becomes an issue we work around Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes M pagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you all thank you thank you next order of business mullock 828 corgy street block 1090 Lot 10 this a contributing property and looking for solar panels good evening Mr chairman Commission uh about Zack mullik uh 828 corgy Street um and as you probably remember I was here last month um I was actually hoping to get both of them on for last month not to the fault of of this group at all my contractor didn't get both applications on but um just to uh remind you of the last application which was 808 Corgi Street um this is a a very similar uh application same contractor same solar panel same equipment and actually I would argue uh even less um intrusive if you will it it's only solar panels on the back uh portion of the roof um so no solar panels can be seen from the uh Street um really the the the biggest portion of this is really A1 uh to see the layout um all of the solar panels are on the back portion of the roof none of them are on either the flat portion uh well semi flat portion in the middle there there's nothing on the back of the front A-frame um and of course nothing on either of the front A-frames uh either at the front of the house or to the rear of the house the only panels are what you see on A1 um on the back A-frame face ing the rear of the property um so again none of none of the solar panels are uh seen from the streetcape um and just um to to reiterate from what I said at the last meeting the these are solar panels that are um kind of like the most efficient solar panels made today um made in America and um uh one of the reasons I'm saying that is because I'm not doing as many solar panels as you may do on a typical application don't want to do that personally I know HPC wouldn't approve it anyway I don't want to see the solar panels from the front of the property myself so frankly I'm happy to um I believe abide by uh what HPC would like to see um that concludes my presentation I'd be happy to take any questions your application is marked conceptual you intend it to be final I I would like it to be final yes sorry about that you think I would have learned over the here yeah after after all this time right which box to check this application sort of hints of that this is where you live because it's listed as your home mailing address 828 you're not moving to this no no I'm not 8 full disclosure this was the contractor that filled this out uh I I live at 808 Corgi Street this is our rental property at 828 Corgi Street yeah okay yep and no intention moving I get a lot of trouble it's always good to keep the rental properties close by yes yes um do I have a motion motion to approve the application is submitted it's clear that this is coverage um with solar panels that are just not visible at all from the streetcape second motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss pagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you everybody thank you and again thank you for all your time and effort that you put into this we appreciate it can we go home thank you not yet next order of business Kings Cottage Enterprises 9 Perry Street blot 1034 blot 15 key contributing and this is HVAC condensers good evening good evening my name is Scott Thomas I'm the property manager for barar premer at Kings cot see you so it's your presentation you want to put many splits on this Pro proper this is a contri does everybody understand what a mini split is um yes I yes okay um and so when we looked at this application we didn't see where the line sets were going to be how they were going to be held dealt okay there there will be no line sets visible from the street if you look at uh page four which gives you a picture of the building from uh Street side there um all of the lines that are running to the units there is a roof section about 3 feet or so where the face of the third floor comes down they will all be recessed back there which would be impossible to see them from street level um those lines will run around the corner until you get to well if you look at uh page 13 you can see where I'm talking about along where that uh roof projects out there is going down the side of the building from the streetscape you'll see a vent stack coming up that vent stack is directly in relation to an exit uh emergency exit door with a flat slightly pitched rubber roof there those they will go there and con and connect to a five um receptacle outdoor U product there that's here on page 14 yeah so the new one of the new units is what's being depicted here right that door yes sir so that unit the only place that that could be visible from would be the property at 11 Perry Street if you happen to be high enough to be able to see it from there the the only place there is if you look at page 17 that'll show you an example of how that system will connect to the location that we just discussed and I'm sorry on page 16 this other that depiction is that all is that in the back of the house no that's on the ground level but but in the back in the back yes sir either right no it's on it's on the side of the house actually it's on a 45 degree angle from the from the parking lot side going towards the um outdoor shower and this is not on your property this is just an example of what that is not on the property no that I I took that picture for you so you could see some reasonable that's actually taken of the house next door to us where it's on it's right on the little actually that one platform I guess you say that picture there was from 404 1 Avenue West Cape mayate and the intention is that the line sets both condens andrial be handled as depicted on page 18 yes that's that the the longer piece of pipe that you see going down at the bottom is the drainage for the moisture condensate line condensate line yes um I'm looking at what you've given us and it looks like there's just two drawings on where two of the Mini Splits will be and you're putting nine in you know there's no indication of where the other seven are going to be in this picture here each one of the there's two of these units okay the one that I just explained to you that is up on the third floor and the one that he just showed us the picture of that's down on the ground level each one of those handles five Mini Splits okay and now do you have like any um anything that will show us where or in the exterior of the building where the mini split units will be I they do have an external they go in the individual rooms but I mean but they are they do have a piece that sticks out right uh not really they kind of follow the wall flush okay nothing you see there correct you'll see actually you'll see this same you have in in order for this base unit to operate the Mini Splits inside the rooms it has a electrical line that goes with it and it has a copper line that creates the heating and cooling so that comes out of the wall bends on a 90 and we the way we're setting it up is the only place that you will see that um PVC cover the PVC cover would be on the back side of the building which faces the parking lot yeah so that those coils that are coming out of the back of the Interior Minit hous in a small box that's about stand out from the wall maybe 3 in or so correct correct yeah it's about a 3X3 area yeah see see pictures are nice but sometimes it's good to just have a diagram site plan so you can actually see that's location one of the issues that in this application and why it's here tonight is because couldn't be approved in review because of these line sets that are while they're unobtrusive and we want to make sure that there all of them every one of them is not visible from the street or the side yard see and and and that and that may be so but you that doesn't prove it to us by not it doesn't show us on a on a site plan of uh a survey or a site plan that we can actually see the angles these these are pictures that purport to show sort of where that's going to go but you can't tell whether that's actually visible from the street well there there are none of them that are coming from the street because everything goes to the back of the house I I hear you I mean and your testimony is your testimony is to the effect that this is not visible none of these units are visible from the streetcape correct that's that's that's an important part but the lines can be very visible if you look back in the Humphrey Hughes house it kind of went ahead with a even the lines are in the rear right I'm sorry uh I'm talking about a building on the corner of ocean and Columbia uh uh Colum I the Humphrey Hughes house went ahead and kind of ran its lines wherever it wanted to and they still haven't gotten approval on that we've been calling them back without giving them a final because they ran them right down the side and in uh so I I think our questioning is exactly where they're going to go and what they're going to look like is is a very fair question on this it's easy to say we're going to all run them back they won't be visible from from the street but uh we we've been burnt a few times on visibility what I think would be helpful is if is if we had even a crude picture of the property from the top and you could show those nine splits come coming out the nine lines out the back um and then um bring it back to review I think we could get it done in review and then also at that same time when you do that picture show where the two compressors are so can you excuse me and then additionally a screening whether it would be lattice or whatever around them think that's right yeah you would want screening around it that's what we generally want yes and it's just it could be just lattice around it that's fine just to hide it a little bit we we'll consent to put lce around anything you want yes can I just ask a a clarifying question here yes sir you have two exhibits um page 12 and Page 11 page 12 is like they're both angle shots of King's Cottage correct one in front of five Perry Street the other one in front of 11 I think those are intended to show the they are yeah but yes but let me ask you this question the yes sir the mechanical equipment the lines the uh they have lines that run from the the condensers right yes and they're they're attached to the building and they snake around a building are are you going to be able to see them from the front of the building absolutely not he's arguing that they're all nine are going to come out the back see they just if they just marked it here on the survey so if know exactly where they're going and exactly where the lines are right could I no I know I'm just trying to confirm that the the from an angle from the front from the other angle on the front you're you're saying that you can't see them from the street skatee okay it'd be impossible what did you said I couldn't hear what he said so he was just asking whether the lines whether any of them could be seen from the streets and the way that they're all running is actually impossible to actually that's what I was trying to explain a little earlier the way the house is designed after the front of the house there's a little almost like a little Alleyway going into on the side of the house that's actually where our fire escape is located right no no understand back there it's really not you don't see it and it's actually on the other side is the out shower for me if you just just show me where this stuff is I might like to make a a motion that we approve this but subject to um the submission for um our Review Committee um to see where the exact location of these um units and lines with with and with the understanding that all of the mechanical equipment and the lines are situated in the rear not on any of the sides or visible for the public right away and and I understand that to be his testimony it is um and and I guess suggestion has been lattice covers well whatever we we always request any kind of HVAC equipment to be screened I'm sorry CH whenever there's any kind of H again this is in the back if it's in the back they're not if it were in the back we wouldn't be one on the side of the house on the third floor should probably be screwed yeah when we see the plan we'll know and that's why we want to see the plan so we know whether right it it has to be screened so I what you're saying U makes sense sounds right um but we have to have something visible that we can sign off on so that um compliance officer knows exactly what we've approve can look at the property and approve it I think I think I think I made a motion you made a motion I think I made a motion which would which would put this um for for for final approval subject CHR added some wording to that no I don't think so I almost would suggest that the applicant if they're prepared to to mark up page 11 and that can be incorporated in the motion could I do that right now it's a good thing we're both tall um okay well we can get this final approval right now but we're not going to pass on this the drawing no but he's he's going to indicate where this is we can I think what we can do is give conceptual approval and then we need this drawing back with the details into review yeah that's fine I didn't I didn't think that we' be laboring it's in the rear yeah yes they're not in the rear though the line sets are in the rear I understand that yeah the the one compressor is up on the roof and the other one is down other one is on the ground in the rear and then the other one's covered or at least blocked by the roof right okay all right so sir you don't have to sit there and do that right now conceptual when they're going to come back yes we're going to well yes did you get a second to your I I didn't but somebody else can make the motion I'm sorry I was trying to stre I thought I was trying to streamline this but it got more confusing in any event it seems like it's coming back How about if well it was it was actually the Grant final with with the submission of the drawing subject to me to get an overhead picture is you you have it you just have the survey you you have a survey picture all we need to see is is the nine little places and the two units where they are on that looking but you you say the nine places okay the nine places are inside the building yeah the line sets show show us the condenser units and the line set right but my my point is so all the Minit I understand what you're asking now all the mini spits will be affecting rooms in the rear of the house no lines will be going up to other Mini Splits towards the front along the well what I what I tried to explain to you was when you look at the building from the streetcape you see the third floor and then you see a roof projecting out from the third floor like and it's probably like this wide okay those lines will be running along the building up close to the building itself self where there's no possible way that you could see him from the street because that's 30 ft up in the air and unless you were in a helicopter then you could see them so they're going to be hidden from the ground they're above some sort of an over but all all of which is capable of depiction on a diagram on a on a picture on a on a survey I I mean I again you can do this conceptual over like I thought it was so little to be done that we could this final approval subject to submission of that one sheet of paper by the Review Committee so we don't have to that we approve this application is final uh with the condition that a top down view will be provided to the Review Committee to confirm the presentation it's a rare date that Warren ever makes a motion and I will second that motion do you understand sir what we're asking for yes absolutely motion by Mr copelan seconded by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss pagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you we don't meet tomorrow but the following Tuesday we just need that yes sir that four okay thank you thank Youk you very much that was a lot easier easier than a lot of other stuff you had to deal with and and you made it and you made it harder by not giving us the piece of paper up front and and you made it harder by not giving us the piece of paper up front availability to for the for the Kate May community that you're so generous in your time and effort to keep us a beautiful beautiful city and we appreciate your historic intentions and I do my best at the cottage to keep that up I've probably had thank you bar historical not in this situation but you know through the the short term great and this is one of the reasons I live in Cape n I'm from Florida and the historic value that we maintain here as a community is probably one of the more important things that I can see that New Jersey has you know there was no else in Jersey that I would go live none I'll go back florid it says a lot about our state other than that well I mean I I I don't want to see Cape May the Ocean City of the South yes you know because you got boxes and it's just you know not productive thank you thank thank you very much than you your time good evening good to good to see you bar next order of business jaged and sin 918 Columbia Avenue block 8 block 109 excuse me block 1089 Lot 8 this is a non-contributing property it's a garage deck and stairs members of the board got a little hand out I'd like to give you on behalf of the applicant Charles Sandman the app as well as uh drove around town to um take a look at all other properties in an effort to make this proposal as with the neighborhood as possible what are your names yes the you want to you have to speak into the mic so it's recorded would you like me to speak please devb jaged owner of the house thanks uh members of the board as you're all aware um this is a non-contributing structure which I uh pretty much determined from the GetGo however we did contact the historical uh preservation committee to confirm it which they did for that reason I brought my application directly to the zoning board and the application that is before the zoning board is for a use variance because what we have here is we have a garage apartment that has been such for since 19 1960 or or around long before my client came to own the property and um the the reason why you have to bring use expance is because any um addition uh remodeling um modification or whatever to an existing non-conforming use requires that you get zoning board approval so that's why we went there what he's seeking to do is he has an existing um apartment above his garage he simply wants to put a porch around it the P the garage apartment he resides in himself he does rent out the main property but this property is dedicated solely for his personal use um having said that I'd like to have the client swor in and get some testimony it's not necessary is it uh it's not necessary but M Mr uh Sam man just procedurally you said you went to the zoning board already yes and I should have G expanded on that we went to the zoning board and the zoning board raised some questions and so they they thought that they would like your input and that's why we're here okay well it's in the historic district it is in historic district but not non-contributing structure yeah they all anything in the historic district has to come before the HBC and they want our input before they make a decision excuse me they want our input before they make a decision on giving them the VAR that's correct okay yeah and you know the issues at that time were basically the design of the Rails you things like that um if you look the original application he put in like a Victorian style design he wanted to put in the rails and then he's going to testify about why he I gave that handout to you with uh you know a another proposition that might be more um so just just to be clear it's not checked on the form at least that I have but the applicant is planning on going back to the zoning board so you want you're seeking conceptual approval that is correct go back to the zoning board understand that you have to come back here for final if you get through the zoning board that's fine okay okay okay so we're marking the application conceptual right Mr Jag is decent how long have you own this property since 2003 when you bought the property uh was there existing apartment above the garage yes and was it your understanding at the time you purchased property that the P person you purchased property from was the builder or the owner that had the property built yeah it was uh the Giddings family was lived there for the longest time and Mr Giddings built the house and the and the garage and did they indicate to you how long that apartment had been above the garage before you purchased it yeah I'm speculating just by the construction that's been around since uh right after the house was built the house I think was built in 1954 okay now um there's a principal house on the on the property how is that used that's uh we we currently rent that out you rent that out seasonal rental on a as a seasonal rental sir could you just sure the applicant to speak right into the microph sorry sorry about that I was radio announ speaking yeah sorry uh yes we we currently rent that out as a seasonal property okay now the garage uh apartment the apartment above the garage how was that used uh it it was originally rented out and uh about the 10 years ago we took it off the market and stop getting a mertile we use it exclusively family solely for personal use yes my wife and children is it your intention from this point forward to continue to use it solely for personal use correct and the main house as well in a few years when uh we retire okay now if you could just explain briefly uh what it is you want to do with this property now um so I own two other historic properties in town uh 220 South Lafayette and 824 Stockton uh when he said we were going back to the historic preservation committee uh I added flat zone balls on that porch thinking that would be appropriate for you all and um but then when I came to my property just today and I looked around everything there's several new homes approved uh that have been built on our street as well on my block of Columbia as well as across the street and whatnot they all have essentially the white spindle the white spindles so that's why I changed it at the last minute today I think if we do the white rails that everyone else has and has been approved on those properties it will tie this house as well as uh around the surrounding houses so so every house on my block has basically the white and there's no flat Sun bers until you get up on Columbia so that's why I changed it um at the last minute okay now I submitted the the this photo with the um application I assume you all have that photo I want to show you so that's the way the property looks right now correct the garage correct yeah okay and what you with the doors open it's embarrassing what we have submitted in the handout there um by adding the steps on the side to go up to the uh no no no steps no those steps are inside there's no steps yeah my next question is how do you get to the second floor you come out of the second floor on the side cu the stairs are inside that that the little side door the right correct correct y okay that's correct so there won't be any constructive a stairs it's simply a uh small porch that you would access from a door on the second floor so that uh you can get outside on the porch yes as depicted on the side elevision and how do you intend to use that porch myself and my wife and children okay I mean I can explain why I want a porch if if you all want to know what is this picture that is a picture that is a picture of the the deck part of the deck as proposed and I I'll I'll have Mr Jag it's part of the deck as built look looks like somebody got to jump on your application it m Mr jaged has a friend that stays with from Tom who who's a builder and based on his advice Mr jaged will testify he had the idea to start this up he's not aware of our area uh he's not I guess I guess he's more of a handyman the more than a builder didn't realize that approvals would be needed for such a thing as soon as the code enforcement official found out he let Mr jaged he said no he stopped immediately and we began this process that that side area was a a um was where the trash containers were and it had a little roof on it and so be that as it may yes there's this representation here mhm does not conform to this oh yes that's correct it's it needs to be changed which needs to be changed this or this the existing needs to come down and be Chang the diagram the surveys SP that's the what's proposed yeah yes the that whatever was begun there that's going to be changed to conform with the survey that's been submitted correct and and then then there's no variances required if we take off that back and do that angle like that then it meets all setbacks and requirements so we also saying that you are eliminating this proposed Cathedral railing I I again that was what we preferred to use but looking at looking at at what's all the surrounding properties on my block I think using this railing is better because it ties it with all you know there's four new houses on Colombia but if you had your choice you would prefer to Victorian style yeah they all look like that the exhib for the railing you're seing It's actually an alternative because it's yes what this what's the material out of which this is made they it looks like they're all TX product in all the houses up and down the street an as product correct what are these tickets and railings and posts uh those are all PVC as well yeah that's the track but if the board required a specific material do not that important but is it going to be built I think to get to the material side is it going to be stick built on site yes so you using ASAC or something correct so so it's not a formed plastic no well smooth plastic real so it's going to be stick built correct this is going to be removed correct this shows a a a spindle system here that's neither this nor this so yeah I said that's all being removed right it has to all just making sure yes yes that's that's not accept so so if I understand and if I didn't have a stop order I would have taken it down already so so if I understand this is no longer what you propose this is the railing shape we actually leaving it to the board's preference yeah I'm looking for your input but I I I'm just saying right now after reviewing all the surrounding properties I think the spindle is better I would more consistent more consistent with the other properties in as much as the zoning board said bring it to the HPC for consistency and additive to the community it seems to me on my block on that block spindle but this is not a spindle so no it's not they're all flat they're they're all so so they're Bal yeah so they're all like this this is like a a 1x4 or 1 by six yeah they all look like that with a with a spacing that's my neighbors so it it's going to be more matching to use that similar to what's been approved on those new houses well I'm that's just my opinion but I can I certainly you say I'll go see when you when you move when you move from this or anything else then the application also gets supported by cut sheets that would show this particular thing as opposed to the first thing we had understood all right but since we're here for conceptual certainly come back for final on that that kind of a thing but with the zoning board was was looking more towards that which uh contributed to and enhanced the the character of the neighborhood meaning being more consistent with what's around you and that's why he went around and offered this because what he had in his R Pro proposal was different than what was around yeah I think if I was two more blocks up Colombia a flat Sun Baler is going to fit more in compared to my block of col and I'll just react Dev I'm familiar with your property we're right on Corgi street right above so I think what Dev is trying to do is is there has been a number of new home constructions on the 900 block of Colombia that are very 2020 in their presentation if you will and so I think that I don't want to speak for you but you can tell me if I'm being wrong his original idea was to present something that was a little bit more classic in nature but out of respect for some of the other the streetcape the current streetcape of the 900 block of Columbia Avenue has presented something that's a little bit more current as opposed to Classic I I I don't disagree with it you know a Victorian approach to this property doesn't make sense I'm Comfort it would stand out but I need detail I'm looking at a picture and we're mixing up terms we sort of I mean if if we can get approved conceptually that we can you're okay with the uh porch on the second floor then we'll come back with the details of particulars on exactly what the rails are the materials are made of and anything else that you might need to know I'd like to move for conceptual approval for this deck expansion can I ask a clarifying question before we do and I may be the only person that's not getting this but the you you presented a front and a side 2D is there an angle to this porch this deck like or is it 90 degrees around like a 90 degree cut oh the the angles depicted on the over and I guess the my question can be illustrated by the Schaefer Nasser plan the grade out portion on that plan on the is that where is that the dmen is that the proposed deck the gray portion if you it shows first if you look at this one here it shows that there's a slight cut off there to avoid getting into the side setback correct you're going to need this to make the setback right correct and what they've built already has to be taken down because that would require um I got it I I just wanted to clear that that's the design or not necessarily because part that's built already only comes up to the front of the house it looks what they're doing correct they're extending out in front and then connecting what's there to the front with a new angle hence in the elevation that's why there's two correct at at the at the at the second post you can correct post right through all and you are correct because I didn't hear what you said the grade out portion is it and what they're depicting underneath is is what the the remnant of the exact uh the area that was holding the trash so there's a boardwalk quote he called it a boardwalk the engineer called it a boardwalk underneath on the ground that trash can sit on and that's that extra outline you're seeing that comes outside that gray area so the gray is upper deck yeah that's it that's it I just wanted to mention something too that um you know you've indicated that you're going to try to maybe come up with the cathedral railings to try to make it fit in with the Victorian or you were going to try to match some of the new construction but maybe what you should be doing is looking at what kind of rail system would have been in a house built in 1944 in town and maybe use one of those houses built around the same period to show that House was built in 1944 because that would be true to itself that Mak sense that would be pretty much the kind of railing system he's losing using for 1944 right I mean but there's another example this is right across the street from me like directly outside my driveway Y and again I do whatever whichever railing system but this is they're all Ts PVC m square and and so again I'll go whichever way um it it it doesn't the style of the rail is not really just wants to be able to put a p so ASAC railing would be okay with you sure but but again not real wood but it has the best correct characteristics to appear like real wood pable and all that y exactly could you consider a trash uh enclosure below that if the trash cans are are still going to be sitting uh on that side of the building uh uh I can but uh the the the trash I moved to the other side anyways so yeah yeah but yes um like I said I I know all my neighbors I've been looking at them railing and again I was trying to more tie it into the block uh knowing like I said I have a property on stockt in and I have a property on South Lafayette and I know you want to be on the street right and that's the point and so that's why I I I sent I literally sent these other drawings to him at 3:00 because I said whoa wait a second I'm the accurate plan right there yes that's the accurate plan correct TR cor no it doesn't moved to the other side of the house I they're only pursuing conceptual concept and and you know in terms of of of granting conceptual um the concept here is to put a around this but we're we we're sort of being asked to design the railing system it's it's it's like it's it's it's so conceptual it's vaguely conceptual I have no problem supporting an application to for conceptual approval to to put a balcony around this garage apartment thank you um but but I mean the choice of the railings also I mean for for um to better satisfy the concerns of the zoning board that we left um they wanted your input as far as that this this um what we're proposing here today would contribute and enhance the character of the neighborhood I was hoping we could get something along those lines because that's what they were looking for we we have a motion made to conceptually approve the plan as presented what is not clear is what the railing system is actually going to look like so what we need so we have a conceptual approval or we will um but we need a submission a detailed submission of what the railing system is going to look like now should we do that by way of a review just meet with you guys on an inform formal basis because we want to be able we we have what's your what's your what's your timing with respect to the other board what's your timing with respect to the going to The Other Board I'm sorry timing of the zoning board the 25th of this month of this month if if you tell me what you need I can produce a cut sheet and if you if you said ASAC I can produce the ASAC cut sheet if you prefer the for lack of what are they SP that's why this is so confusing if you do ASAC you you build it on site okay the same as wood any other ra stick by stick M or you're going to buy a a a rail section and fit it in right um either way we want to know what it is maybe maybe we can do I'm I'm asking motion that advice do do conceptual with a recommendation as to what we prefer that's what he's looking so perhaps let me try this chairman I would offer to um make a motion to approve conceptually this submission based upon a railing design consisting of inch and a half balls a bottom rail and a top Rail and the spacing be no more than three and a half inches between those balls to be stick built that's fine right okay and I and I will second for me one more time three in three inch and and I will I will second that motion because I think that's the recommendation the spe specificities looking for with respect to the The Next Step can you give me those numbers again yes please there I'm going to put it in in a writing that's going to get transmitted to we want these rails to be bigger I'll do it before the me real custom I don't want to push you well the idea is that okay I'm going to need it before okay soate SP ready and I do have a question ask to be clear please when you say stick built yeah you mean wood only no can be built out of ASAC as well so it means each piece is an individual piece you're not buying a pre-molded or preab railing and just now I absolutely understand what you want I can do that so I'll try the motion again offer conceptual approval based upon a railing construction that consists of a bottom rail a top Rail and balls that are no smaller than an inch and a half square and space between them no larger than 3 in and and I will second that motion a second time thank you sir motion by Mr best Becker seconded by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yesk thank you thank you and you heard it from others uh thank you for the great work you do like I said I have two other historic properties in this town uh appreciate it as a homeowner that you uh keep our standards up thank you thank you next order of business Hudson 1017 New York Avenue block 1103 Lots 50 and 51 this is a contributing uh property rear Edition siding Windows railings roofs and trim point good evening um good evening Billy Campbell uh from OS design Partners ACC compan with uh Dan Hudson property owner how are you good evening good evening good evening so kind of jump into it so we have a rear Edition uh we have a shingle style home contribu um so if you turn to hand out that I gave you sp -1 is a site plan and the proposed Edition is highlighted in that blue color we are within the existing footprint of the deck so we're not going beyond that so there's a rear deck if you turn back to the actually surve turn back one sheet you'll see the survey plan you'll see that existing deck I'm sorry I'm I'm not what oh what page are you on here so I'm on page three I'm on page uh page no I'm on page four that's a survey that's right right a survey page yeah right before the S Point got it so you can see the existing deck and then if you turn to sp1 you see that our addition is still within that existing deck and that's a rear of property Mr Campbell yes just as we start out here is the applicant here because they're going to the zoning or PL zoning board is this conceptual or you this is conceptual a conceptual review we still have to go through zoning okay okay so we're thank you you're welcome and then if you turn to the next page which is the first floor plan on a1. one it illustrates that the fir under the first under the addition well not under addition part of the addition is converting that first floor deck into a screen porch okay just a portion of that deck I should say and then A1 D2 which is the second floor second floor plan you'll see in the again in the blue the addition there contains that additional bedroom additional bath and then to the left is another additional bathroom on Suite for that one existing bedroom this this area here is exactly precisely the same as what's in existence yes the area the area yes yeah that is a plan of the existing condition and then this is the same thing this no this is the propos second floor plan okay okay and the proposed second floor plan shows the addition in the blue color versus the addition that is shown in that yellow color so here this this is the existing this is the the first floor this is all existing we're just converting this part to a scen which is below this you flip it down Billy to the ele to the side elevation it's the lower right depicts it pretty well I I see it most clear clearly presented D2 is a lot clearer okay is that yeah yeah yeah which is a side elevation so what we did with the addition we stepped in the foot from the corners of the existing contributing structure this way we preserve the outline the silhouette of the existing contributing structure as you can see here so this is the line here of the this is the addition so we clearly keep that corner that outside corner of the house on both sides whoops mag you can see it here it's much easier it should be out here yeah Tom it's much easier look at this but it should be sh here that's basically A2 D2 I know you got yeah that's yeah exactly take a look I see it I see it this this is this is existing but then build up and then the addition goes on top right s it's confusing to where this so if you're looking at if you look at a that's van white here you're looking at uh a-2 I mean a 2-4 you'll see from the other side as well you have the existing elevation above and then you got the proposed elevation Below on the same sheet [Applause] the roof the roof Ridge of the proposed is lower than the existing trying to no I understand understand no the the A2 D2 explains it okay um I um unless there's questions about that part um I think we should be looking at materialist this yeah the footprint makes sense not visible from the from the so with the materials we're matching exactly what is on the contributing structure we have Cedar Shake s Cedar Shake siding Cedar Shake Roofing ASAC trim painted ASAC trim we have ASAC stick built uh railings with a mahogany cat so all our trim and then our lce would be Cedar painted Cedar lce panel you're saying you have ASAC on a contributing structure yeah it was approved back in 2006 yeah I have the letter too if you guys want to see that the approval letter from HPC I actually made that presentation back in 2006 as well but for different company you you made a presentation here yeah 14 years ago I was here as well yeah he was here as well I wasn't thank you I was here too I remember you remember giving him the permission to do the AAC uh actually we were doing that back then that was yeah we were one of the first houses that I that the HPC approved yeah I think you actually approved asphalt shingles and um TX decking and we elected to put on Cedar Shake roof and ePay decking MH that's why we have a your standards book uh windows are all wood Marvin so we're just keeping that um that Signature Collection is that vinyl Cloud no that's all wood so it's Prime you can get you can get vinyl but we're all wood that's primed exterior primed primed no prepainted exterior primed it came primed and we field painted it and we would do the same we can do the same thing um so we'll need the cut sheet on that window well he gave it to us yeah I gave you a cut sheet on the window there's a contradiction yeah they're paint it the paintart on this page you're saying wood everywhere but you put a square around White Stone aluminum and that's why okay gotcha okay yeah it's all wood sorry no don't pass it off that quickly if it's aluminum clad it's not accepted no it's all it's all he put a square by mistake is what one error in there okay so the cut sheets ACC yes sir okay great that's what I was looking for thank you Kevin is your mic on it's on A2 D2 so see there's that little we're keeping that because we're set because the addition is set in a foot oh got it okay I got it I got it get that originally looked like a looked like a mistake on the uh on the schematic thing it would be continuing a former approval of ASAC to 2006 keep same for same I don't yeah I know I have a problem I got I'm really troubled by so what we're discussing here just full disclosure is there was apparently a time when ASAC was approved as a material on contributing projects contributing properties that is no longer the case and that's been codified in our new standards as of September of this past year which means that even though it wouldn't be same forame of what was done to the contributing house back in 2006 what we would require is that all of the materials that I've highlighted Ed here on your material sheet that you say or ASAC this would include the the trim board molding the vented painted uh beadboard the uh window trim and the column wrap and the railing system would all need to be wood even though everything there is correct even though they're on the rear of the house correct and you won't see it from the street correct and it looks exactly like everything that's on that house that was previously approved by this group correct and so just to make to to help us all understand why we don't think that's unreasonable is that if we want to maintain the historical Integrity of these structures the original materials are what needs to be put in place there was a mistake made at one point that allowed for some substitute material to be used on a contributing structure but at some point that will need to be replaced as well so why would we continue making the same mistake every time we want to make a change to that existing house or added to it therefore no I I understand your position I understand that argument if I were redoing the entire house I think that would be fair but because I'm matching we're putting one room on this house correct and so you're going to out on principle you're going to stand on making me do something that doesn't match the rest of my home so actually it's a little different than principle it's actually cified in our standards we have to abide by the standards we created I mean the fact fact is using the ASAC will will look like wood but there has been a change in the standard from the time you were permitted to use the AAC so using wood which would conform with the standards will look just like the AAC if you paint it right which sort of proves theic of it I think there's another point though and we there we all most of us at least have taken a new seminar on the use of substitute materials and when they're appropriate so so if you had an AC criteria that was exposed to a lot of weather and very hard to get to ASAC might be appropriate for that but when you're building you're supposed to use wood and the cost is not the consideration the durability and the uh visibility are the consideration so if our standards were a little less clear in 2006 and ASAC was approved we have spent a lot of time working on clear decisions that are articulated in our design standards and the the D has also continued to look at things like flood UV ex stress the weather other reasons that we might want to use a substitute material on a historic structure and it's not not for convenience it's not for an economic reason it's not because somebody said you could do it before there are specific reasons and they are practical reasons well make one other point certainly thank you Janice Sor so at the end of the property report on this property I was really intrigued by what you guys are doing because I think it's I think it's a beautiful project and I think you're doing it really well um it says right in the prior property report it talks about um properties contributing property although alterations to the buildings massing and features such as historic trim threaten the properties contributing status that's why I'm putting up a flag because it's our job as commissioners of this commission to make sure that the housing stock and historic structures that are registered or that contribute to the historic district remain with contributing stats thank you for reminding us because I knew I read it somewhere and I didn't go back and look one of the concerns we would have with the use of ASAC under conditions where it's being prohibited is that it could further derogate corre contributing status of the structure that's my concern we don't want the lose this house as or it's contributing status and it's on its way to doing that because somebody somebody caught the somebody caught the structure of the additions before I appreciate that painted wood and painted ASAC are going to look the of the same we all know that painted AAC will not rot where painted wood will rot I care about architecture I think as much as you all do you'll allow me to put an asphalt roof on and I am paying a lot more money to put a cedar Shake roof on because I think it would look better yep right so we're not at odds over trying to have an aesthetically pleasing home where it odds over why can't I put in what you approved 14 years ago again especially when you can't tell the difference when it's painted and you can't see it from the street that's all I'm asking property report is saying that this property is threatened by virtue of that who generates a property report oh people um an architectural historian and then that is approved that report is approved by the state it's approved uh by uh the HBC at least two members that is then approved by city council and becomes part of the ordinance so you have several architectural historians involved um I understand your frustration on the one hand on the other hand because something was done improperly uh you know 10 years ago doesn't mean we should continue to make no I I I agree with that I agree with that L and if there were um a situation where we had leeway to consider trades and improvements that you made uh like the cedar roof that would count as as something that was a positive thing you did but wasn't there I mean was I misunderstood or wasn't there a home approved this garage approved the very first one of this evening that had ASAC trim on it that was approved in the historic district it would depend on whether the property was contributing or not correct and then that so that and one tonight if it was a contributing property but the accessory building which was a new garage that would be permitted you're you're integrating something into your contributing building it's not an accessory piece it's not a garage it's not an outbuilding it's just part of your building we've belabored this to to some degree yeah I mean um certainly would vote to give conceptual approval to this to the design as and it's it's a really nice design uh there's just nothing I would fault about that but but I would condition it on the use of acceptable materials as as noted before which cannot include AAC in the in the U in in the various things that are circled here on your material sheet so so when you would come back for final you would revise that to show the the required materials that's that's where I think we are so just so that I can leave feeling like better than when you came in you won't you it'll be hard to I suspect right but if there's a home that's being altered on New York Avenue today that's a bird cage house like mine and there's AAC going up on it today as when I walk down that street that house must have been approved prior depend whether the house was contributing or not no it is it's the exact same house doesn't mean it is that doesn't mean it's contributing it could have been bastardized in six ways from Sunday beforehand it depends on the survey laboring this your house is evaluated as contributing that drives us to a certain set of conclusions and we're trying to work with you um but the ordinance is is clear so it's it's just different than it was and each property is going to be assessed on its own um and so we can't say earlier today something was approved or not approved I mean this property is contributing and uh if we continue to put ASAC on if we approve an addition and we continue to put ASAC on then it will likely not be contributing at its next evaluation and the more non-contributing houses we get in Cape May the less likely we will keep our National Historic Landmark status gotcha that's why when you look around the walls here that the work that has been done and you know it's amazing what we have saved all these buildings were surveyed by historic American Building survey over 50 years ago and every one of them is still here in Cape May and many of them are in better shape with better uses than they had 50 years ago so you know we're all paying a little bit of a price to do everything right me too I'll second Jim's motion fine thank you welcome motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carl yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes thank you thank you all appreciate it thank you got a tough job to do but uh you're you I was here for only three and a half hours one night and you're here for every month so thank you sometimes more than three and a half hours well maybe you're not yet I don't we're not we got to believe a we're not done cther do you mind if we took a six minute bathroom break next next order next order of business 11:45 Washington Street block 11113 lot 22 this is a contributing garage demolition fast C I have to talk really fast cuz it's at 10:00 we all go away yeah that's right okay so uh the first thing is the a garage um Katherine you representing the owner do you want should I give a little background here or should I just go to the nine points go to the seven of the nine points please that's but quickly yeah but but quickly then did you introduce yourself to the Katherine Laurence architect the client are Mr and Mrs Oaks they were not able to be here Mr Oaks had an operation so I'm representing them today and they know that we yes they do it they're watching us right now on YouTube or something so you're authorized to be their representative you're authorized you're authorized to be their representative yes I'm authorized to be their representative um so uh just I'm going to pass this out two good you thanks hey um this this is um I can already tell you this this was a carriage house that we were renov can I interrupt you for a second yes this is going to be a problem and I don't think we're going to be able to resolve this by 10:00 question the survey this is um this is a historic garage um that um supposedly during renovation uh was torn down or fell down and I and it's already done and I'm I'm not sure we want to try to deal with the situation well like this I now this there's let's be candid the idea was to repair this garage is that true yes the idea was to repair this garage and so and then the builder left his people there and left the site and when he came back they didn't repair it they tore it down correct and and that's a contributing property well dispute on the on those facts versus assertion be a dispute on those facts survey which says it is and Katherine's assertion that it isn't this garage this garage was surveyed and was built in the early 1900s no it was not and that's I am I am disputing that because the owners we're going to have to get an expert all right then then we'll get an expert but so as I said I don't think we can deal with this in before 10 o'cl you you want to say that it wasn't built in 1900s and we have an architectural historian that reviewed the facts identified his early 1900s shared that with the state historic office shared that with the city the city the HPC approved it the city approved it and became part of the ordinance and now you can't just come in and say no that's not true just make a question just just a statement please um that that of course is what the survey says and presumptively we follow the survey however we have also been in a situation um where there was some ambiguity as to some date of construction and a recent application and the applicant appeared and provided certificates and proof from city building authorities as to the actual date of construction of that property and Who provided it remember the beach house remember the beach house on New Jersey no no no this property I I don't I think I'm not making a point you are you're saying you're saying we have to abide by a survey yeah I I hear you but but if the surveys can be an error and it is possible to demonstrate if she's correct that the survey is correct expert okay or she needs proof of a different kind right she could prove to us if as as they as was proved to us before that there were City authority to build this garage let's just say in 1965 it says on on page 18 the contrary of the city survey the garage was built in 1960s right that's so that's the question do you have any evidence of that Cather we we'll work on I'm trying to but I I'm not first of all it's a fat to complete the garage is down right okay so it's been demolished suspiciously down let's be candid with that it was torn down I yes it was torn down I'm we're following the process in during the process I talked to the owners who had talked to the people that they bought the house from and the people they bought the house from said they built the garage in the 1960s and it was a weekend special garage let's let's try let's try and sort of figure out since you have a difference with what the we we're bound until proven otherwise in my view we're bound to follow the survey as presumptively correct however it's not conclusively correct if you can produce competent evidence that shows us the garage was not built during the during the historic period and it's up to the appli to come up with that evidence we have seen such happen before City Records building permits um construction uh uh Records to to to show us that that the actual date of construction if you can do that then what you would have proven at least to me is that that is a non-contributing garage that but it is true it's gone but I feel a lot worse about destroying a contributing garage than I do about a non-contributing structure that's the only point I'm trying to make here Mr La did you there was a mention here about City Records of construction of the I did not look at City Records I didn't even think about that as being a concern since the building was down Our intention was to renovate the building uh the subcontractors took it down I I don't know what to do and I don't know what even if it was a contributing building what is the result what does that mean you can't build it back again I I haven't got an answer for that good I mean I really have but but I'm want to rebuild it back in its footprint I have to go to zoning now because the footprint is not complying right but Catherine I'm looking for your guidance to follow the rules and regulations might take a different view do you have a resolution um Judy can I just weren't you with before us with this app application for this garage before yes and you had an you had an approval from HBC yes to renovate the garage yes we did we had do you have the date and the number of the resolution of approval for the renovation of I would have to get I'd have to get the date it's not an application it's an application for a new construction the garage is gone all I'm saying is there may be adverse consequences for negligent or willful destruction of a contributing property I'd like to know if that happened if it's not a contributing property I don't feel anywhere near as bad about that and and and right now I'm presuming it's a contributing property because that's what my survey says so so it might be a good idea for the applicant to prove the contention that it isn't contributing yes ultimately we're going to have to get to what's built there okay well the other issue is you're you want to build something different than what was there is that correct no I don't want to build some I what I want to build is is what was approved prior to this prior to this I had applied for a renovation of this Carriage House I will bring that application with me the next time it had been approved exactly the way it is drawn now we were going to uh uh put board in Baton on it we were going to reconstruct the doors is it going to be in the same your the your proposal for the new structure will be in the same location as the old structure yes we're exactly the same right well I'm going to go to zoning after this this was the the plan get conceptual the footprint is going to be the exact same footprint well I'm going to go to zoning to see if they will allow it to be in the exact same footprint but the exact same footprint is not complying it's only a foot off the lot line so then I'd have I'm still going to have to come back to you because if zoning doesn't allow me to rebuild it okay can I just make something clear for the record just because the garage today is gone does not mean the board has to find its way to a demolition permit the board could review the record that Miss Lauren wants to put on and if we find that you know this is all we have is the survey and the survey IND indicat early 1900s and we're not convinced it's 1960 you could vote to deny that and that means that the applicants in a difficult situation with a denial of a permit and a demoed Building without a permit but we can still move on to the next thing with which is what do you do now which is you know the um the proposed building notwithstanding that it was done without a permit I just want to make that clear we don't the the board doesn't have to find its way to a demolition permit if you think that you have to review it at with the the information that we had at the time and assuming we're not going to punish the applicant for taking it down somebody else will do that if that's the case I'm I'm saying if that's the case is we're not this isn't Municipal Court this is HPC we're reviewing whether things are appropriate or not so we're the it's fatal comp the building's gone but our outcome is not determined by that we just have to review it and determine whether if you apply for the demolition of a contributing structure that's going to be a harder road to Hope I I think this really turns on your successful prosecution of the nature of that garage if it's contributing then there may well be a denial of a demo permit as council's just suggest it that's why I I suggested we might need more you're going to see us I never got a chance to explain why I I can explain can I can I expl you take a look at this structure here the way this is put together these are not 2x4s that would have been used in the 1960s these are some local uh cut that I would suggest appears to be um a 3X3 or some unique measure it's not the kind of structure that you would have built in the 1960s where a 2x4 is not even a 2x4 a 2x4 was an inch and 5/8 by 3 and 58 I remember they went inch and 3/4 so so if you look at this here you can see this this are not 2x4s that would have been used in the 1960s yeah I I the picture does suggest what and the other reason I I am showing this picture on exhibit one is is that we the owner and myself had every intention of reusing this building we would not have gone through the trouble of lifting it as you see and pouring a New Foundation if we didn't intend to repair the building so this was not a premeditation on our part okay that's that's all I I just want to make sure make it clear that I'm here I I'm not suggesting that you are responsible for for this building no longer in existence um I shouldn't have to tell you that you should know that um but the fact that it uh is down is is interesting and and it's clearly built sometime way prior to 1960 so I think um from a demolition base uh to go through those nine points very quickly um uh and since it's a historic building I I can anticipate what the result will be that might in fact eventually help you because um the whole idea uh is if we do it constructively then when you go to zoning replicating the building in the same spot in the same size um and getting U relief on on a variance uh it seems to be would be facilitated and so so I I don't think it's an advantage to argue that it was built in 1960 when it clearly wasn't but it wouldn't be an advantage anyway unless you want to build it bigger and in a different location so cther was that Foundation poured the foundation was the foundation was poured before they took it down so there is a so there is a foundation they're now and there's two corners of a new wall built before there was a stop work order there was no foundation on this building it was just built on ground there was just like a wood that's that's another confirmation that's another confirmation it's a historic it's a historic building so tell me what to do okay how about H how about um during this convers during this conversation we uh have been able to conclude from the nine points um that the building is historic and um uh I would make a motion that we approve demolition I'll second that motion have we ever approved the demolition it's a motions been that's on how you vote no you don't have to vote the motion's been made and seconded so therefore it's open for debate correct so my question is have we ever approved the demolition of a of a of a contributing structure nor will we tonight okay I just just asked Judy motion by Mr copelan seconded by by Mr Becker Mr copelan no Mr Carol Mr Becker no Mr Stevenson Mr Testa no Miss bagno or did she depart I'm Sorry Miss Wilson strick no Mr Johnson no thank you so the demolition is not approved right correct okay now what it's it's still I don't know I don't know what to do now I mean I I have a I have a it would be the recommendation I think we could for the HBC could provide some Direction it seems appropriate under the circumstances to rebuild this um this garage and and is same location the same size um and uh identical as close as reasonable identical to what was there so isn't there an anomaly with that your design shows an additional Cupa and it looks like a a yes a dormer right so even though that had been approved before that's the anomaly yeah we we want to replicate the building that was taken down which I have plenty of documentation I can make it clab board we won't put any Dormer on we won't put any Weather Vein we we still have the doors because I made the contractor keep the doors we can replicate the doors that would be what I would bring then to the zoning board they keep the windows also I think I really think that would help you with the zoning board they loan it they put it in dumpster so the application that I put in for a new garage needs to be modified so it matches the old building exactly sound that way okay and the idea of that is that when you go to zoning it it would be helpful for for them I would think to recognize that while it's new construction it is in a an unimproved location but it may I think influence them I just don't follow I mean I understand that part and and it gets me it you know it's it seems to me that that's a way of looking like you're putting back exactly what you what what fell down knocked down destroyed exactly but that's what happens when you tear down a I know but we this body is already approved renovations to that existing renewal and renovations to that garage with with different aspects to it so so does that mean the applicant then comes back later and asks for it's like it to me it seems in Congress to to make the applicant do that twice Mr Loren are you going are you saying going to the zoning board are you going to the zoning office or you going to the zoning board with this applic I'm going to go to uh we have to apply for zoning variance okay because the building is location of it yeah it's non-conforming location so are you you you checked final I think in here I made a mistake I should it's okay I that's that's why I always ask because some conceptual approval is what I was really looking for so uh can I are the Oaks taking Lenny legal action against this lousy contractor this lousy contractor has not run away he is paying for all of this okay so he will pay for the zoning board attorneys the whole I mean he feels responsible for this because he turned his back for 15 minutes and well that's should help the zoning board too that everybody's admitting fault on this and uh yeah and you might you might get a free whole new garage well yeah but but it'll only look like the original one that was knocked down that's my problem with this it makes no sense to me other than than in gratia other than looking favorable to the zoning board to to to look like you're putting back exactly what got knocked and also to send a message to this community that you you don't start building uh like the LA last application gentleman had two in Kate May yet he's adding a porch you know I didn't know I wish there were a different way to send the message get the message out you know so could I ask the board to consider conceptual approval and I would match the old garage so I can go in front of the zoning board or is it too late I know we only have like seven minutes or something I I think that's fair I mean we do have pictures and yeah I have pictures I have i' I've measured it I have all the existing sizes but before we do that Jim's making a pretty valid argument in my mind and would it be your client's preference to rebuild what exactly was there or to rebuild it in a way in the same footprint that included your modification of the warmer and the pupila well you know the answer to that one but that's that's new construction and um I I think it would be inappropriate for us to approve new construction uh like that and then give zoning or or look to zoning to feel like they should create a variance the the issue is if the building had not been torn down then it could have been modified because it's pre-existing condition but now it's torn down and it's new construction reconstruction I mean it would be there's nothing left there there's nothing left it's it's new you would normally approve didn't you have zoning approval to put the New Foundation in in its existing place yes ah it it's going to have part of the work I've done already and and it has encroachments on the back and the side yard you know right that's you know so you're you're allowing an even a bigger building to go up if you go by the new one and well no what happens is as we get a smaller building in order to comply with the zoning variance it's also a wood building and and and I'm not sure how to make a wood building fireproof but I'll I'll have to cuz it's it's on the belief on the belief that we cannot solve the two steps that I think are necessary I guess I'm willing to support a um um the motion that talks about just building it back exactly the way it was with with original materials so Warren uh threw a motion out that we uh you requested that we make a we we give you I I made a motion that we and I will suck at that motion that would conceptually um recreate the recreate the existing building as close to character materials exact size as possible that's reasonable right okay and then I will be back right well we didn't vote on it yet I I'm sure you're going to be back a number of times okay we made it this is for the new detach motion correct yes got it so yes did did you second it John did someone second okay Mr Carol did Tom did yes oh Tom I'm sorry so motion by Mr Copeland seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Testa yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you I do have one question however on the site plan it's it looked like you were building a new gazebo back there and I didn't see any documentation of that at all well that was that was approved by the board last year that was approved by zoning we are building the Gazebo okay and this a totally separate submission it just happened to be on the same side plan well it was all part of one space the garage the new entertainment area and the Gazebo but now it's been separated it's two separate projects okay exactly but were they all on the same application uh uh I can't answer that question it's a stop work order but wouldn't they have to stop work on everything if it was on the same application I don't think it was on the same application because the garage was just a repair and the Gazebo was brand new yeah we we we do need to find that out wait Katherine I remember this didn't it have an aing window too on the side of the garage and also a a dormer yes so your former proposal and you got a resolution for that are you g to does she have to retract that formal approval from last year because it was modified considerably carry this over what anything that we did tonight overrides any prior approval I mean and not in totality but anything that we address tonight that conflicts with your prior approval tonight overrides that and will be reflected and I we can find out the resolution number and we'll confirm that yeah I mean does that make sense M lawen yes okay this is that's new circumstances new work yeah okay did did I don't want to leave because I usually leave before you do your vote did did you do the vote no we didn't vote I thought we did did we no we have a motion we just voted yes yeah we I just voted yes all right if I have to vote vote again I'll vote it but voted yes this this is indicative of 10 o'clock six minutes voting twice we don't we're not remembering what you voted on good night C good night thanks a lot thanks a lot things happen sometimes I thought you look sound asleep happen a lot oh boy a suggestion yeah word of um we were going to open to the public and and then then it's closed we were going to have a discussion about this material um I suggest we hold that till the next meeting you know yeah it's Prett clear that the council will never get our recommendation about parking this is the second and and and there was a special meeting in L of that meeting but I'm too I'm too tired to get into this new next meeting the next meeting will'll take this right up first first thing okay uh motion to adjourn seconded I thanks all God Almighty I you know Chris I think it's