##VIDEO ID:ZV9BxYjc_3w## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e city of Kate main historic preservation commission August 12 2024 it is now just two minutes past six o'clock in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been presented if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of this act they should state so at this time Pledge of Allegiance please pledge ofice roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Carol here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson here Mr Tesa here miss pagno may be late she may come Miss Wilson strick is absent Mr Johnson thank you Mr hammeron thank you here minutes July 15 2024 you've had a chance to look at those do I have a motion to approve those minutes so moved I second by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Johnson yes Mr hammeron thank you you resolutions excuse me Madison Cape May re LLC 1025 Beach Avenue block 1095 Lots 8 through1 13 resolution 20 2425 Lord 1239 New York Avenue block 1132 Lot 27 resolution 2024 26 and B AJ family LLC 805 stockt Avenue block 1068 lot 20 resolution 20 2427 do I have a motion to approve those so moved second motion by Mr Testa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Mr Johnson yes thank you Mr hammerin thank you applications approved or denied in review you've had a chance to look at those do I have a motion to accept those motion have a second I'll second motion by Mr Stevenson seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol I refused myself on city of Kate May 1048 Washington Street Key contributing the condenser thank you and Mr Becker I also recuse myself for the same project but otherwise yes thank you Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa I'm going to vote Yes but I am going to abstain on the jaged desian um application at on Stockton Avenue thank you Mr Johnson yes and Mr hammeron thank you thank you first order new business is AER and the salano sorry for the clumsy pronunciation if that's correct I thought the pesan was easy to do thank you so took Jim want to hit the mics make sure they're green the m just for the record here I think we're good no just for the record um the address is uh 129.5 there is no half okay five is a half sorry not here okay so introduce yourselves your relationship to the property and what you want to do uh my name is Mitch beter I live at 1209 Lafia Street we subdivided the please into the mic we subdivided 129.5 and we are going to build a uh 1900 square foot property my wife gay pesano uh Jim McAfee from McAfee Architects the AR okay take it away okay so uh as I said we subdivided this lot uh site plan is in the packet uh it is a 1900 Square F foot house we tried to make it uh appear like other properties on the Block uh tried to make it have the Kate May appeal that we think you guys are after um uh you know that's that's pretty much it uh I brought along a uh rendition uh that shows it in the streetscape um you have any questions P just one that I did already you could point that out too I just oh yeah actually it is good point um so the the house that uh was just designed by Jim uh he also designed the houses on Bergen Lane in uh West West Cap May and one of the last pictures in the package is uh 104 Bergen Lane which is the exact house that's being built except for it looks like you want to use clabbered siding at the front porch instead of the shingles right so that's the only thing in this rendition that's inaccurate is that correct right okay yes in comparison yes to the one photo Mitch which of the uh Hardy plank sightings are you planning on using uh I think you did Circle um there you go there is a I don't know which page it is but a select Cedar Mill finish um I think that's I see how it's yeah it's so beautifully circled I didn't even really notice you so beautifully circled it's a square it's a square so I will point out that the um the rendition shows the porch as having uh like a a cedar Shake not correct but we are changing that to all plank okay after we saw the rendition we thought that was okay ridiculous um we have been encouraging people to use a smooth Hardy plank side where they're going to use it uh the one with the fake grain of wood is just a little bit too fake to make it look realistic because when you look at real clapboard on most of the houses in town many them with a lot of coats of paint but uh you know they they are coming out with a nice smooth finish so it won't have sort of the uh simulated look of trying to fool the eye and make it look like a rough cut so would you be uh willing to change that over to the um the one that they call smooth smooth yeah I I don't have a problem with that does anybody uh think it should have the beaded on it no no because the first choice has a beaded bottom on it which was used on some houses but not really used much during the mission stall period that was pretty much just flat so it looks like I think we're looking at the smooth without the bead at bottom okay okay yeah okay that's it that's what you any other questions about we normally go around the room this is pretty straightforward so I would open it up to the commission does anyone else have any comments it's I think it's a it's the streetscape photos show that this fits very very well in with the the streetscape so you you'll you'll certainly be looking consistent with the neighborhood and other than being specific about about the sighting I think that you're you're using all modern materials for a new house so we pretty much new house agree that that's what should go on it right so no I I I think it's really it's really nice design you're not proposing shutters on any of the windows are you no okay so really very well done submission so I would therefore move that we approve this with the one change that the sighting be smooth as opposed to the cedar M yeah I'll second that motion motion by Mr Becker seconded by by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Mr Johnson yes Mr hammeron thank you thank you thank you thank you you you need something else next order of business 151 15-1 1519 New Jersey Avenue walk 1175 Lots 7 through 10 this is a contributing property we're going to talk about Roofing siding Windows Doors fence railing shower enclosure walkway lighting and awnings okay am I am I live here you are hi and we can also hear you excellent I'm uh Mark Asher I'm the uh principal of Asher slan white Architects I think my partner Deborah slan white has been before you several times um and uh I'm her stand in tonight because she uh went on vacation but but she entrusted me with this uh project and uh when she showed it to me I I had to laugh because I have photographs of this house dating back maybe 35 or 40 years um because I used to come here did you introduce your partner oh my partner here is uh the contractor uh Jim Barnes hello so interrupt so no uh so it's a house that we knew uh or I knew really well uh because it was just a great example for me as a young architect to uh steal parts from so and and I did so uh the house what we're doing to it is really uh fairly simple from a historical perspective I think we're just we're reskin it and bringing it back to life taking the old Cedar off um putting it back on of course as Cedar uh roof is of course Cedar we're repairing a lot of the trim that is uh in disrepair and in some cases falling off as you'll see on some of the photographs um windows are being partially replaced the the upper floors are replacement windows that we are taking out and putting back as uh of course wood uh windows and the lower floors are original that we are uh repairing instead um of course railings and so on you'll see on around the house are being uh replaced there's a back deck that has no railings on it whatsoever um so that's being repaired refurbished um with railings from the uh matching the original House the front porch is being repaired the exist the steps are coming off and being uh replaced uh there's a uh the concrete walkway leading to those stairs is is coming up and being replaced with a a brick and uh blue stone material um there's a beautiful little out building here um that is also being uh repaired Windows Doors and so on siding um so I think you know in essence we're repair we're doing a you know pretty uh good historical uh uh rebirth here uh um so I'll take any questions you might have I have three ex pretty simple the windows that you're proposing and the patio door are both gelwin correct but the sight line Windows come in both clad and primed exterior not specified which it is yeah it'll be primed so the exterior primed yes same thing with the patio door yes okay question number two nice image of a screen door but it doesn't tell us what material is is it a wood screen wood just a so it's a painted wood screen door yes same thing with the garage door same those are my questions thank you a question on the Windows yes the replacement windows the existing are there's some 9 over one there's some 12 over one will they mirror they they will it's a it's a really interesting pattern especially on the second floor it's a I think it's a 16 over one a horizontal so there a mirror in each spot the M will be on the outside of the window yeah true yeah it'll be true yeah sine is true divided the ones he was just speaking about though I don't know if it was the exact same War I questioned the one the 12 over one the the 9 over one and the locations of them yes but but he said it was a true divided light I don't believe it's a true divided light is sight line uh so simulated divided light well I think it's a could you it's a simul div if I can clarify I believe the windows that you're talking about are actually original windows that we would be re re uh bringing back to life um you know as I understand rehabing what you're saying is that that none of the windows on the first floor needed to be replaced correct okay so those you're just going to repair there's one on the second floor Landing that has the the 16 light that we I'm I'm just concerned about the criteria for replacement whenever we have a large number of Windows being replaced and we'd like to make sure that they truly need to be replaced as opposed to just you decided that they're kind of a little old and creaky and so what was your criteria for the second I know the third second and third floor get exposure it's a it's a so nasty if I can just clarify um I'm also if I can Aid to this I I strongly believe in what you guys do here I'm also the uh historic preservation chair of West Cap May um so I believe that every window that can be refurbished on the house will be refurbished and every window that cannot be W uh will be the um the primed sight line windows with the matching moons uh pattern that that exists currently right but the application here pretty much says that everything on the second and third floor is being replaced okay well have we surveyed those windows can we make that assertation you know in in situ I mean how how do we well I mean we have in the past we've we've had some some U input from um surveys made and our Review Committee considered them or we specially considered whether those windows needed to be replaced and my my my view here is if if you were really convinced that they were in bad shape because wood was rotted the the SS were gone two locations that I know off the top of my head are the second floor Landing that has a beautiful window and then the bath the bathroom uh that has a beautiful double pane window kind of uh this is off the top of my head obviously that I would do everything to maintain and refurbish and then the rest would would be new because those were already previously replaced okay so they're what you're replacing are not original Windows correct okay I I don't feel so bad okay yeah yeah I thought i' say that we are yeah okay um Mr R yeah yeah I have a question uh two questions um one you've checked Final on here it looks like a renovation I don't know if there's any exterior elements that would require you to go to either maybe the zoning board have you evaluated that whether there's any variance no we don't require any variance to this all right um the second thing is your client's not here tonight right no okay all right but you're representing to this board that you have authority to agree to any conditions and this is the plan that your um client has authorized you to submit because I see you signed it I didn't see that that they signed it yes okay and you understand that anything that the board does tonight there'll be in a condition attached that your client will have to ratify whatever you put on the record tonight so if you say we'll do it we need the clent before they can even pull permit your client's going to have to say yeah that they spoke they spoke for me at that meeting okay understand that I do okay thank you this window that you're using is it a double glazed window Jim you speak to that I believe it is good the specifications are here in our packet so it is wood and clad wood well but not quite because gelwin sight line they make both a exterior primed and a wood clad so we just need to make sure that you're using the exterior that's why I asked the question right because the specs you submitted don't specify don't specify the glass well neither the lights nor the exterior primed well can we stipulate that we're matching the light pattern yes absolutely disting yes and we can approve it based upon your commitment to do that the the windows the very top windows in the front yeah and appears to be a 9 over one correct and I don't see where jel DN offers a 9 over one well that's the window we're going to use Ian we're going to make the Maan pattern whatever uh you know it's a custom window to fit that nine over I mean I don't think there's anything unusual about a N9 over one window um and the same is true especially as we said about the the second floor Windows which are a really unusual pattern well I I I guess I'm going to need more information this this is the pattern that's available with a jel wind sight lines right well that's their catalog window and we're going to this is a start renovation so we're going to make this m this pattern match what's here so it's not a standard pattern so so you're saying that you're some of your windows are going to be custom made by jelman in the sight line version and they will do that yeah that's I guess that's what he's saying going to be custom made I mean I can't we you know we certainly have to follow the Mion pattern that's on this house and the Mion pattern is going to be on the outside of the glass this I don't I don't know I I would typically think it's on both both sides but Jim you want to speak to that since you I I haven't worked I I haven't worked with sight line before but the intent would be to have it as a true divided light or the mum pattern on the exterior at minimum I think what you're saying is what what jelin uses is a simulated divided light which has both an interior and exterior component and a divider between the right the two layers of glass that's a simulated divided light and are you agreeing to that well that's what I would or a true divided light true we simulated yeah it has to be on both sides and I just wanted to say too that you know a snap in Grill of course is not appropriate ever I don't what what what's a snap in grow I don't know you um some people use them I think we're gonna we're going to need more detail um on that window um and our in our motion because that should come before the Review Committee yeah I think that's does that make sense well can it be you know I'm not sure how this works I it's it's stipulated as such and the window is submitted and that's the Bas yes okay we can pass we can raise a motion and I will do so if it's time I I have a little bit more okay never mind but yes you can bring before our Review Committee on Tuesday Mornings we meet every Tuesday except tomorrow the cut sheets that you're proposing for the windows at which point we can approve your submission um because I think it's you know I hope it's clear that we're treating this pretty serious historic restoration so that's what we don't we don't doubt that yeah I I mean your your materials list is really good I mean it's that's not we're we're not we're just trying to be specific about the windows both as to their manufactured quality the way they're going to be divided whether they'll resemble the ones you're taken out and and I think all we're saying is when when this is voted on you'll just get a condition you have to satisfy okay bring in the proof the Review Committee will look at it simple and you're done all right simple enough thanks we're asking for it a little more detail that's it yeah so make your oh Tom you've got to go uh you are mentioning that you're also going to replace all the railings on the first floor the porch correct do they really need replacing um Jim I can speak for I can speak for that yes P off you're doing same for same you have a very massive rail pattern in there uh the ballustrades look like they're at least two and a half to maybe three in and maybe very close together with a nice top railing and it's probably a 24 in uh rail uh now if you do replace everything you're going to be required to go up to 36 in yeah right right you know if you were going to say we could save this you could uh what's it say that that detail is on drawing 85 yeah yeah I did see that but you know I really couldn't tell from those details is if you're GNA really do that and that same pattern will be used in the staircase coming down which has almost no ballast Rayes in it at at all right right and I think there's a metal rail down down the center of that is there not on the side of it on the center but you should have your two wood railings should be uh the wood to match what you're doing on the porch right so if you can make that part of your Tuesday presentation the railings that are existing um they are getting pretty rotted down towards the bottom rail or the Ballers are getting pretty rotted down towards the bottom rail so that's why we're proposing to redo it the um yeah so the front porch uh the front stairs will be replaced and the railings are intended to to wrap around and go down the stairs okay now if you have steel rail somewhere in there to like a safety rail in the center that's a different thing but just so the wood rails would match what was original yeah and I believe there is a a center uh uh metal rail okay for IR that's down here that's down the bottom portion down here yeah it's I'm familiar with this is what the rail looks like right now there's iron here but here's the wood rail coming down yeah not good right and that's what we we're all in agreement I didn't hear what you said I'm sorry the rail coming down this on the steps the front steps yeah going to match the railing around the porch and and I can see that coming as condition number two yes right John makes his motion okay are we ready ready ready yeah so I would move to approve this application with the with the following caveats that the gelwin windows and patio doors the screen door and garage door all be wood non-lad materials second that the windows Mullan pattern and true or simulated divided light cut sheets will be presented to our Review Committee for approval and third verify that the wood and iron railing details match existing okay and present that also to our Review Committee for approval okay and and knowing that those are conditions and not caveats I'll second the motion oh excuse me those are conditions all right so motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Johnson yes Mr hammerin yes thank you thank you thank you thank you next order of business is Jordan 911 Corgi block 1093 lot 16 this is a non-contributing building second floor rear Edition elevation sighing Windows steps deck I have to recuse myself from this one okay good evening good evening so um I'm Kevin oant project manager at Fenwick Architects this is Clay Jordan C Jordan they're the owners welcome so uh the Jordans have owned this property 911 corgy for about 20 years um on the latest the 2013 historic structures report it's listed as a non-contributing building um and the goal really this project is to make the house more livable safe and sound um first thing they're going to do is lift the house to the new current flood regulations is about 2 feet uh they're going to level and rein Force the structure because there's some sagging floors um and we're going to provide a whole new interior layout to make it much more livable it's uh the rooms are chopped up there's posts in the middle of the dining room um provide all new wiring and plumbing so it's safe meet current codes and on the exterior uh we're going to replace all the asbesto siding we're proposing to do that with cement board siding smooth I agree with you um uh and we're going to place the windows um the new windows proposed are two over one windows and there's some places where we're going to reconfigure the window locations for the new floor plan um on the left side you'll see if you look at the survey that the front of the house is less it's a couple inches from the property line so we're going to make that a fire rated wall to improve the fire safety and then the final um piece is then the rear porch it's a one-story porch at grade and we lift the house up we want to convert that into a twostory porch but it would still be a porch outdoor space open if you have any questions for me just a procedural one um raising it within the footprint do you anticipate having to go to the board at all for for any relief not for the raising um the only question might be the front staircase we're keeping it within the 5 foot of the new ordinance but the front setback doesn't comply so the only reason I ask is if if there is a trip to the zoning board for instance that we usually Grant conceptual you go to the board and then after if the board has to weigh in then you come back for final we're hoping we don't need any variances okay we don't think we do but we haven't submitted it yet okay well the five foot from the state um is I think we all agree it's a little overboard um not in effect right now right so we weren't planning on raising it to that level I have a question regarding the parking in the driveway yes uh you show three parking spaces and the one closest to the street to Corgi Street it would be in front of the property the front of the front line of the house well yes you don't have to park it there's enough parking that you don't have to park in the front yard those those could be pushed back but I mean even a suggestion was maybe to re locate or do something with that HVAC platform so you could push the car oh you can still pass that it's up high on the wall you can drive past Drive underneath it okay so in other words you really don't need that the one in front of the house right the all the parking can be behind the house for for code reasons this house only requires two parking spaces um it's yeah I believe it's two see that parking spot that's actually in the front yard now removed from your plan well we can certainly do that so we're not accused of of approving front yard parking and if you do if you are required for three you do have the room yeah there's plenty of room you could park in four cars you can get back on the pavers if you we're required two and a half spaces you're round down for rsis so it's really only two yeah but I just think it should be noted that you know we will not approve parking in front of the front line of the house sure in the historic so just to be clear that's directly from our new standards it's indicated on page 44 visible parking in front in the front yard is inappropriate beyond the face of the building was in Old standards actually too it actually was but now it's now there's actually a little diagram that right I actually had one more question too I think you've done a great job you know it's kind of a very simple design but it does fit in with the fabric of the uh neighborhood The Only Exception would be the door that you indicate um it looks very modern I think that someone riding down the street or walking down the street would look at that door and say oh right away it tells you new construction and according to our standards a non-contributing property that doors and doorways should be compatible with the historic streetcape in which it's in locate locate it and reinforce its architectural could do a three4 light door with a little pan it looks very modern yeah I mean it gives the impression of being a storm door yes it's just basically and I don't think you want that to be your front door so a full light door is contemporary right so like I have a 3/4 light with a small panel a lot of fit in full light yours nice for a Doxon when he only has three yeah I'm a do just got a new one too in everything they get to that's what there now the do the last 25 years have let them now give them a bench the historic bench any other questions no no just a comment I think this is a substantial Improvement to the facade of the house I mean it it takes a sort of not so greatl looking structure and it really gives it a makeover that um is quite attractive so so that that part is is really to be to be praised it does and you can ship the old design of Key West that would fit in we love the house it was kind of cute do I have a motion I just have one more question just I want to make sure the the long narrow window on the left facade in the kitchen that's an existing window is that correct existing window opening yeah okay oh no wait no that's a new window yeah that's a that's a new window that's behind that's okay so that's my question is there any reason why you haven't there's not a lower sill so it looks more like a window in the kitchen so you see out I don't all I if I put my hand out that window I feel like I could touch the neighbors oh because it's so close to the property my gosh and I just I got it you see her house is terrible understand thank you this one right here yep got it that's the one I'm asking about I looked at that to in the sink's right behind well yeah so but I understand the argument makes sense to me do I have a motion I will make a motion that the application be approved with alterations uh for the front door design that is within our standards uh and to be have that presented to the uh Review Committee and I think that do a three4 light door and proove it now um I think so we is that okay with you yeah I think like to okay because if it goes a full light then they have to replace it anyway okay all right and Tom I think the parking yeah yeah and we also want to see that third parking spot removed from your plan so we would need that too as well so there's just resm yeah yeah that can be reviewed in commit yep it probably doesn't even need review just get submitted to satisfy the condition submitted for permits then correct that's enough well we we want to see it that yeah just revised plans showing the three4 light door uh front door and the elimination of that third parking space beyond the front facade okay you can just back you can just come back to the board but submit resit yeah for for approval and you can resubmit that to Judy and then we'll review it many just one and and there is the aspect that if you do wind up having to go to another board the nature of this approval probably won't be considered as final because we don't know what the other board's going to say or do okay it's not going to be all for not if you end up having to go to the board they're going to have you're going to have the benefit of the hpc's feedback but we we condition that they may come up with some condition or comment that would require alteration to your plans that we haven't thought of because we're not looking at it for zoning purposes okay yes a motion made do we have a second second motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Becker Mr Copeland yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Mr hammeron yes thank you all right thank you very nice job thank you yes nice work thanks next order of business is Cole Hower 298 Windsor Avenue BL 1023 Lots three and four this is a contributing twostory Edition expand expand the deck and a patio that's all this is the bulk you see out there good evening um my name is Paul kiss I'm with OS design Partners the project architect uh for John kohh Hower who is uh to my right um and um I I'm glad we weren't first because you pointed out a number of things that I'll point out in my presentation um but uh first I think uh if John could give a little background on uh why we're doing this project and the history of the property well I I guess I need the microphone here yeah um I I guess since I was six months old old I've been spending every summer or or portions of every summer here in Cape May um and in um 1989 my mother uh Doris Barger um purchased this house on Windsor Avenue and um about 12 or 13 years later in I think it was 2002 uh she moved down to 1428 New Jersey Avenue and um put the house up for sale and of course my wife and I had to buy it cuz we knew what you know basically what great condition the house was in um so we've excuse me just a second so we've owned it ever since and um now but as we're sort of Aging out um my wife and I would like to spend or um excuse me a minute got a horse horse in there we'd like to spend our retirement uh years here in in Cap May and um I made my wife uh two or three promises I I told her number one we would we would change out the windows um because they were always rattling and um and uh there were always a problem which we just did um this past summer and by the way we use the gelwin Allwood non-lad windows and I'm really glad we did because they're they're fabulous fabulous um and the second uh promise I made is we would um get our a real kitchen because the kitchen that's in there now is really not not very functional and then the third thing is um we would like to have a master bedroom suite uh above the kitchen kitchen so there are the three promises that uh that I've made my wife that I'd like to like like to entice her to come down to Kate May for the rest of our retirement years we can't vote on your [Laughter] promises um so with that um let me just uh walk you through um um the site plan um shows the existing house um Windor Avenue at the bottom uh there's a cross-hatched area where we have a small addition um behind that is expanded deck um a hot tub which would just sit on the ground um and then um we're showing uh New Brick paav driveway and walkway uh so the reason uh we're replacing the stone driveway with brick pavers is because the stone driveway would be counted as 100% impervious and the brick paver driveway is counted as 50% so adding brick to reduce the impervious conversely um so the point of that is um the application will conform to all the zoning requirements no variances needed um I noticed an error in the draftsman the three required parking spaces were shown in the front of the property we will move those behind the the front of the of the building there's there's plenty of room to do that um the idea was to um minimize the amount of addition and utilize existing footprint so there is a a one-story section of the building on the left um we were pushing an existing bedroom over top of that to create a hallway to put the addition over top of the kitchen uh the kitchen is just one row of cabinets with a small eating area um a washer dryer a whole bunch of stuff thrown in that doesn't really work too well so um we're just expanding that area in the back of the house uh and putting the new master suite and laundry facilities up above that conceptually there really is no change in the front of the house we're not proposing anything new uh the windows um uh were approved at some point by the HPC committee um I'm not sure when but last year last year um and so the new windows will be the same exact specification um I didn't submit that with the packet but I can certainly submit the specifics um the uh so our concept on the addition was to um maintain the existing Gambrell roof shape um with the addition keep everything stepped in or the same or lower uh all to the back of the house and I do have I do have the streetcape which I'll I'll pass out in a second um which basically the street is a series of various one and two story and two and a half story houses um but we're not proposing a change to the scale of the building thank you Mr kiss while you're passing that out do you anticipate that this may have to go to zoning at all it it will not okay we will make sure of that okay thank you uh we did of course submit the material uh Cuts with the application um all cedar or otherwise natural painted materials and I think that's it is any of this work going to be changing uh the trim and shutters around the windows no there's no proposal to change those okay uh if if you are ever thinking of changing the shutters we do encourage and announc require that the shutters be half the width of the window and they mount on on the frame of the window to simulate that if closed that they would come together and you then see the outside frame and we can't make you do that if you're not changing anything on it but you maybe next time you paint the house or something like that you could reposition those a little bit to I know I know what you're talking about and and um I have to say John is a good friend and I would not let him replace the shutters other than that way so it's it's Paul correct yes so um I think you've done a very sensitive job here however there are a couple of things that I think we need to address so I would like to refer directly to our standards on page 54 about additions so in some ways the back and the left side gamble Gambrell forms compete I think too much with um the original historical form so I would like to read specifically why I'm saying that additions this is directly from our standard additions should always be subordinate and not compete visually with the original building the roof height of the side or rear addition should be at a lower elevation than that of the existing building it goes on to say it is important to avoid designs that unify it and the volume of the proposed addition into a single architectural hole the proposed addition should feature simplified architectural features that complement but Do Not Duplicate those of the existing building I think you've got a really easy solution here I think you just took away the two gamble forms which are basically almost a stick on anyway you'd be fine that's my opinion actually makes things simpler and and less expensive it is in the back of the house except that they're exactly the same height and there's two of them well no the height is yeah yeah I I agree with you the height but look but look at the gaml it's basically almost a a a paston to a a simple gable roof so if you remove the Gamel forms I think you'd be fine but once again if you if you reduce the ridge and the applicant wants to have that style it's not visible from the front or the side yard so well isn't isn't this your Point's well taken but I'm I I think we we could work with what uh what what what are the two gambles I see the one on the right talking about the one on the left so the the the addition is in the back corner on the left side and the rear side are are essentially two identical elevations with the Amal form I I actually would be fine with it if it were subordinate so for example the other option would be simply to reduce the ridge height of foot or so so so I I thought about that um if you take this feature away and it is added on the wall in the in the original is the same yeah plane but if you take that away you end up with a box and it's pretty massive a big box yep which would be much less attractive um I could I could definitely see changing the proportion of that to make it subordinate to the main Ridge I guess the question would be how much is enough well I think that's at your discretion as the designer but I think that it needs to at least be I would say consistent with the intention of this standard that it actually appear subordinate and if for example if that if that Ridge height dropped I don't know a foot and a half two feet it would probably easily be subordinate yeah and I I would Echo that I I think two feet maybe a little bit less would satisfy the the standard yep would you put your mic on please if if I look at drawing uh A2 the front elevation the way I understand this is that to the left of the front of the house that second floor is largely an all all new addition is that correct am I reading that right this this portion here is new addition yes there's a new addition that's right so with the roof above and above it right yes because yeah because the south side of Windsor the the the pieces you just gave us you show the project site that shows that and it's it's a one-story bump out now so you're adding a second story onto that and I guess I was just asking the question as part of our understanding of additions that's a fairly substantive addition that's visible from the front on that side of the house is that is that my my reaction was that yes it it bumps out but it's also back it's back so so although you see it Kevin the the idea of the of the second floor is not right in your face it's it's back in back in the lot and if the roof if the roof line were dropped a foot and a half to two feet it also would recede significantly in its mass yes yeah I agree much of that is hidden by a wonderful tree right in the front yard but if the tree is ever gone this would become like A2 would be a whole lot more visible in that sticking out there yeah it was difficult to get pictures of the houses because of all trees it's it's a lot of really nice trees so is what we're talking just just to be clear if we end up voting on this I mean that's a I think a perfect picture right there we just talking about dropping the starting point of that two feet dropping this proportion down changing the proportion of that and presumably the one facing the rear yard as well Mr kiss do you are you prepared to go with that is it can you work with that condition yes yes works for me y I had a question regarding the uh driveway mhm um on the driveway on the materials list it says semi-pervious brick walkway and travertine or similar patio um at the end there's a cut sheet catalog cut sheet it's for driveway and walkways and on it it only says front walkway is semi-pervious Brick or drainage system patio TR Traver similar what is the driveway going to be the driveway would be the brick the same as the walkway okay yeah the dver tetin is back here it's it's just not detailed here as to what the driveway would be right perfect um and I should say we're not doing anything with the garage at this time so the only other comment I have is and I I think you've already addressed it but just want to be sure because your submission actually calls for wood clad windows and I don't think that's what you're intending even though you're cut sheets I'm going to use the exact same gelwin uh wood non clad okay yeah well we need to we need to verify that in our motion because your submission says wood clad oh okay and I just want to also make sure the same thing is true for the uh Anderson frenchwood door because the Anderson a or the Anderson Aeries gliding do sliding door yeah that a series door comes both in clad and unclad we want to make sure that it's the unclad verion just just because it says frenchwood doesn't mean it necessarily I'm all in favor of the of the non-cloud I I love the look of the wood in fact I believe that the French the frenchwood is in fact the clad version so just we want to make sure that neither that door nor the windows are clad that they're exterior primed wood that's my intention yeah y completely understood and we'll submit the proper catalog Cuts okay other questions or observations do I have a motion can we send this to the Review Committee for a final a revised plan to show a revised plan have a resolution on on tonight's work so if if you want to see the plan well if if youve give it final you're still going to have them come back to the Review Committee with us well can be proved final but submission to the Review Committee of the final plans that satisfy the conditions nothing's preventing them from submitting that you know toot site before the resolution's on just means that they met the condition earlier okay I'll attempt a motion I would I would so B Of You John I'll move to approve this based upon the following conditions vo and the first is that a reduced Ridge height for the addition be submitted for review by the Review Committee and that the windows and doors be exterior primed and not clad and the the roof line will be dropped 2 feet um somewhere between a foot and a half and 2 feet okay so you want to leave some room in there yes okay but as long as because it might be a proportional issue that Paul has to deal with okay yeah also just to say in fact that the driveway will be red brick like the wall ah and that the driveway will be red brick paved I'll second that motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Mr Johnson yes Mr Hammer yes thank you thank you thank you thank you and my wife will be very happy good that's that's a most important thing hope she hope she makes that choice happy wife happy life you know welcome to next order of business cement ship Inc 1613 Beach Avenue U Mr chairman for purposes of this application I'm going to be recusing myself okay thank you it's 1185 lot 17 18 19 this a key contributing twostory uh rear Side Edition siding rebuild the front porch window trim repairs a wall and renovate the garage okay all right good evening everyone I'm Dave Schultz I'm a partner in dis Architects I'd like to introduce you to Margaret and Hunter Cochran where my clients they own the property um I do have some boards that are in a bridge version of what's in the package so maybe that'll help speed it up a little bit yes fine this is 1613 Beach Avenue I'm sure you're familiar with this home it's a it's a beautiful historic home built 1912 um considered to be colonial revival with some Craftsman style enhancements um the house as you can see from the photos stands by itself for to a large degree in terms of context there isn't a lot of context in fact the lot to the left is vacant they have two lots on this property so there's a good deal of space to the right and then east of that is the newer condo complex so I've always looked at this house and I always felt like it was by itself almost on an island um just a few things about the house our intent is to renovate the house um we're we're going to take the siding and reside it with white Cedar Shakes so it matches the existing Cedar we're going to patch repair um Windows trim all the existing doors that's our intent to patch and repair with the addition there' be new wood windows you know similar according to your your guidelines this front porch is new that was destroyed in the floods or there were storms in the 60s 62 um and it's you can probably see it's concrete block exposed the the lattice work is very very unacceptable uh the railings are are light they're not the heavy railings that you look for um so there's a lot of things things there we want to rebuild so we want to rebuild the front porch per our PL so it's more in keeping with the original style in terms of quality craftsmanship and proportion um this is looking straight on the house it's it's a three-story house um and then on the rear side of the house it drops down to two stories we are proposing an addition to the rear of the house which I'm sure youve seen um that's two stories up to the right side of the addition that's one story and I'll and I'll take you through all that um just a couple of questions maybe maybe maybe questions there's a bay window on the right side of the house that we've been talking about when we met we talked about was that originally a single light window or would that have been a double hung window you know we're not sure this doesn't look quite right to us now so we're open to suggestions on how to treat that um on the rear of the house which will be pretty much covered up by the addition there's this very narrow one room you know it's one room on the first floor it's the kitchen on the second floor it's a very small little bedroom so that will be coming off as part of our our Edition there's also this very odd stair if you could see that stair enclosure that kind of goes up and on top of the roof it looks like it was an add-on it's hard to imagine it was because the stair inside looks original but it does not it does look unattractive so that will be dealt with with the addition as well and these are photographs of the rear there's an existing garage that's same vintage as the original House although you can see it's been altered um it looks like it's been altered in the 60s the windows look modern um there's a lean to carport that we'd like to take off and we'd like to do our best to renovate this building so it looks more in keeping with the colonial revival style new W new replacement windows new seater siding and and the trim would be patched and repaired new g a new Carriage garage door which are all on the drawings these are just additional views in terms of the context and the streetcape these were the images we Ed for our our model to show you how this will look when it's [Music] done this is our site plan there are no zoning variances we comply in all categories the blue is the existing footprint to the house on the main level this left porch is that beautiful sun porch that um obviously will stay this later blue represents the new front porch which we're going to rebuild completely um the brown area to the rear is the the the scope of the footprint of the rear Edition and then over here on the right where it's a lighter brown that's one story so that's uh that's a this is a breakfast room and then there's an open screen porch here and this this this is just patio so you don't really see that and then in this blue area to the back is the garage it's a it's a small scale garage that says two two cars but I don't know that's going to be possible and there is a little Studio space upstairs so we we'll show you a little more detail on that um the plans are really just for reference uh the red dotted line shows the profile of the the existing house so the the main body of the house obviously is the front of the house it's three stories and then behind that is is where we're doing our our one and two story addition to to frankly to meet the program needs of our clients and to make it more of a livable [Music] house the the third floor is you know that's all just interior alterations so looking at the elevations the top row are existing elevations the bottom row is what we're proposing um I don't need to repeat everything I told you but you know there's a new porch brick foundations brick Piers for the porch a new columns railings and a new a new deck on top that M that will be like the deck is now but it'll have better quality railings um and then the roof is already fairly new it's a cedar roof so we don't need to replace that but the addition would have a cedar roof to match on the side elevation you can see the existing house goes all the way back to here and this is the on story Edition on the side that's a screen it's fairly transparent that's a screen porch and a breakfast room behind it that's all glass so this is one story and then this is the twostory Edition that become bedrooms to the rear of the house let's see this is uh the rear of the house looking straight on so you can you get you can see in profile that stair enclosure that's a little bit odd so looking at the rear of the house when the addition is done this is what you'll see it's a two-story Edition and this is the the kitchen I'm sorry the breakfast area and then on the left side of the house this is the main body of the house with the you know the colonial revival details then we we set back several feet create an indent that's going to be the new stair that will circulate through the house and then this is the this is a family room and bedrooms above that's twostory and then there's a porch a rear porch a rear porch entry to the house these are images for what's proposed for the garage again the top row is existing the row below it is what we're proposing new Cedar sighting Pat repair trim new windows new wood windows new Carriage door rebuild the stair with a more conventional ballister railing not the 1960s railing that's there and here's our material specs which I think you've probably seen all the materials that I think are appropriate and and you know the cooch really wanted to make this a beautiful [Music] home so that's the garage lastly these are contextual views so if you're looking straight on you'll you'll obviously the main body of the house will be prominent you don't see anything to the left to the right you'll see the one-story porch I just want to mention that porch is set back 40 feet 39 feet from the front so it's substantially set back um so we don't think it really um competes with the main body of the house This Is A View From the right so oh I forgot to mention um we want we're going to raise up the grade there's going to be a retaining wall at the front of the property that's Brick we're going to raise the house up 2 foot 8 in we still be 2 foot 8 in we still comply with the zoning Heights um we have to relevel the house it's not in great shape so as a in that process we want to raise the house slightly so that's the view from the right side you can see the context there and this is the view from the left side give you a sense of context any questions yes thank you um this this is going to be a special challenge because this is a key contributing house um and our standard is quite clear um on a contributing house Lon a key contributing house and additions that are visible from the front or the side yard are not appropriate and um this house has u a really special character in itself and and further the bay window for me I I would suspect is not original it was added at some time unless you have some pictures of some or something but it it really looks like a 60s kind of contemporary yeah um addition um I don't know what the resolution is I know you're trying what you're trying to to do to make the house more usable or more comfortable um but the addition um on this house visible on on the side yard I I don't think it's appropriate uh if there were room in the back to do some kind of add addition um I think that that would be more helpful redoing the garage I think is fantastic and taking off that 60s um roof uh is is is also appropriate and applauded I suspect you're disappointed with with that observation but i a a key contributing house is really very very sensitive to to additions to be clear you're highlighting the East E where you can see the sun porch or may I may I comment on that may I comment sure um on the the the bay window um it's a good question we don't have any evidence that it was original or not original but because the historic report considered the house to be also a craftsman style um and not just colonial revival I wondered if that's why because bay windows were prevalent at that era you know in Kate may you see them for a long time so I just wondered if it was unique to this house that they B that bay window was original by the way that the windows that formed the bay original they look like original Windows it wasn't added in the 60s I don't don't think excuse me um it appears to me the mic pleas it appears to me that the center window was probably two double hung windows that was either in bad shape and removed and put at large because it's a thermopane window it's the only thermopane window in the entire building so I don't know when that was done um my suspicion is though there it replaced two double hung windows I I think the two double hung Windows would would would improve it but for me anyway and and we'll go we'll get more input from around the room not just me but um I think what makes that look like a contemporary addition is because it's it's it's bumped out on the first floor rather than carrying through um to the to the roof if you look at um period houses with that kind of bump out their their typical um first and second floor yeah the only thing I think that might mitigate that is the two outside windows on that bay are the exact same design and typ what's the name of that Arch Dave that uh Lancet arches they both Lancet arch in the upper sash I it seems odd to me that those came later added to that it's well it's possible I don't know in fact they they could have been original to the house and used in the Reus purpose perhaps and yeah that's what I was really it really looks like an addition that's not why you're here but I just there was the bump out of the bay is unappealing so or it looks inconsistent the way it's done it's a it's a very contemporary um look that's exactly what what happened in the 60s and the 70 um it definitely predates it predates that period of time I'm pretty sure mean bay windows would have gone back to the Victorian era but as I said it would have carried through the second I'm not um it's hard for us to know I I do think probably what maybe happened in the 62 storm something hap was broken or damaged and they probably said this is put a piece of glass in there you know so I think if we could we would prefer to put in a double hung window with muttons you know so that it looks like it's not a strange window because all the other houses are obviously traditional and have muttons the U the addition um you know we're trying to incorporate the needs of the the owners on a on on a on the site and we thought we really felt that by putting that a making the one-story addition to the right setting it back almost 40t complies with your standard and I just wanted to review with you these diagrams that are in your guide book that show a very similar Arrangement although actually our Arrangement is better than this because we're set way back from the front of the house and we're one story so I'm not sure why this why if if this is acceptable that's not acceptable so I can I can address a little bit of that sure um so I just want to ask it's David right Dave yes okay so the whole front porch just I'm going to come back to that just want to make sure clarify one thing because I think what we've done with the front porch is wonderful and do you that the old front porch was as far as we know eradicated in in the 1962 storm you have do you have photographs of what was there before I think I do yeah because I think that would be really important to try and replicate that because for example if you look at the spacing of of the columns and the and the the post up above they make no sense with what's with what exists now and what you've done is is fix we've tried to make sense out of it you made sense out of it and you made them thicker as they probably would have been but it would be nice to see what was there yeah alline so with the addition here's my problem my primary problem with the addition and I know it's probably something you're not going to want to hear but in some ways the the the site plan you've presented is an inaccurate representation because it it doesn't indicate that there's a significant portion of the original configuration of the house that's being demolished based upon my calculations you're demolishing about 1277 square feet which is what percentage 27% that surprises me to hear it's 27% well I all I did was I took the red line and I I used the scale and I C I'm not including the basement this is first second and third floor right so but but that that portion that's being we're proposing to demolish is only two stories and is clearly if you went through the house um or maage quarters and maage facilities for preparing Okay then if there's not a third floor because I only have 88 square feet calculated for the third floor no change to the third floor nothing on the third floor no then take 1277 and subtract 88 so it would be roughly 13 1290 let's just say 1290 of um 4696 so that drops the 27% down to maybe 24% I can't do the math that quickly in my head I have a calculator that'd be great man but it's not insignificant and the reason why it's not insignificant my point being that in the historic survey it actually States specifically that the footprint and roof lines of the building have not had any major alterations since the historic sandborn map of 1912 so what that tells me is that you are proposing to demolish a significant portion of a historic structure that's key contributing and there are 21 if I counted them correctly Lancet Arch windows that are being vanquished and if we allowed that to happen it's highly likely that why are you saying they're vanquished well they're gone they're not being replaced or reinstalled anywhere in the in the elevations that I saw well I we have to put Windows in the new elevations where are they going to come from I I disagree with you we may maybe didn't put it in the plan that that's how we're going to do it but trust me those windows that are reusable will be reused but they're not you don't show that anywhere in any of the elevations what I all I did was I just took the elevations and said okay if you're knocking down that whole addition I just put pink marks on all the lset arch windows that are gone and I and there's 21 of them so and that's along the back well there's three that is the rear rear elevation correct yeah and there's three elev where they're disappearing so all I did is compared the new elevations the proposed elevations to the existing and in the proposed elevations all the pink ones that are Lancet Arch windows are gone well we would happily stipulate to put the same Lancet style arched windows in the new openings fair enough would you and we would repurpose the ones that are you would reuse the ones that are that are repurposable okay your elevations don't show that I I understand they okay some of that frankly some of that detailing we and The Architects did not really delineate yet we we frankly didn't know I didn't realize we needed to be that detail here at this presentation well that's why we're having this discussion is to make sure we're all on the same page but I think my bigger concern is I would our job is try and make sure that none of the houses that are currently listed as contributing fall off that list if they do Kate May is in Jeopardy of losing its National toric Landmark District status therefore that's the purpose of this body I am very concerned that if what you are proposing actually gets approved this house will no longer retain its historic contributing status and it's a key contributing house and that has me very concerned mainly because you're you're knocking down over 20% of what was historic and these 21 Windows which I now feel better about by the way but that's not depicted so I didn't know that until next that's my concern the the objective of the project is to sort of modernize the living space interior of or let's be clear we will live in this house during the entire season we generally come to Kate may this is my 69th summer in Kate may we generally come to Kate May at this stage of our life uh starting more or less at Memorial Day and stay through the end of September we live in the house the entire time I'm not developing the house I'm not planning to set it we will live in it until we're no longer coming to Kate May fair enough so I would like to propose a couple things because there's another concern I haven't even gotten to yet and that is if we subtract what's being demolished from the existing house and we say that's how much is existing as a historical house and then we take everything that you are adding to the house the addition in square footage exceeds what exists and our standards strictly prohibit that that means the addition is actually bigger than the existing house and I can show you in the standards where it says that that the addition should be no bigger than the existing house now the existing house once you're once you're demolishing it right now it's not bigger but if you demolish 20% of it or more that that you know 1,200 square feet plus or minus then now you fall into that category but I do have a potential solution for you I would like to offer so if you look at and this also I think add addresses our Chairman's concern if you look at that East Elevation the wall that's on the East Elevation is contiguous with the with the front block of the house now I know that it's just one room on on those two floors and it's got that god- aful stair but my guess is you could probably keep that as almost like gravity it's like we have to keep this if you chose to keep that and figure it out it's not an Ideal World like your plans are now but if that were gravity and you had to deal with it you could probably figure out a way to create the space you need and make it more livable on the second floor are you talking about the east side or the west side I'm talking about the East Side okay yeah so U towards poverty Beach so if you're facing the front of the house the right side of the house that the wall of of the of the L-shaped house is contiguous with the right side wall of the front the the two-story Edition is contiguous with the eastern wall of the main body of the house and go straight towards the rear of exactly yep so my my guess is if you were to take that as a given that you couldn't mess with that maintain that right side wall yep all right we could probably I would be willing to have a discussion about adding a porch to that side because within our within our standards there's ways you could do that that I think would be acceptable but just knocking that down and um totally changing the massian configuration of the existing historical how specifically since it states that explicitly in the historic report in my opinion would not be appropriate but I think that might be a good starting point for you guys um okay so you're you're suggesting maintain the existing eastern wall all the way to the rear maybe that that whole block that whole that whole it's 14 feet wide right 14t wide and 26 feet long something like that it sounds about right yeah yeah it's long and skinny yes long very it's it's it's really skinny so it's it doesn't work for living but well but but I my guess is you've got a talented enough architect that could figure out how to make that work without and without widening it well you would have to add to the west side of it for certain okay that's where I want wouldn't be restrictions on the western side I'm not worried about the west side so much you can't see that from the street so you're saying if you maintain that wall if you put it if you put it on the West Side it it's not visible from the correct from the street or problem the side yard so know it's a much harder deal I I love starting with a blank piece of paper too you can design it any way you want but in some ways I would suggest this guy is probably good enough that you might even like it better because it would still retain some of its okay yeah um that's a good good place to start and you think that with that in mind we could do the the porch Edition sunro Edition on the right side if properly configured and subordinate to the massing of the house what no on the right side why would you do that when you when you could put it on the left side side well one of the reasons is because we an extra 25t lot correct on the Eastern side that's why and well I get it they they purchased that lot for a reason one being some buffers but also to not be able to use it is sort of I mean that's that is that's not re it's not reasonable is it so I don't think it would be unreasonable to propose a subordinate porch on that my chairman May disagree with me but that would be my position just we trying to get the a little bit of a game plan here here so that's a direction that may work we can you guys probably I'm only one voice up here but yes I understand but we're we're just having a conversation Y and then we oh U and and then we could um look to expand going west and North even if you had to as long as it was set back a little bit right um yeah we're we're pretty far to the rear already okay but um I guess we can look at that I I yeah because I I really couldn't support um a visible addition even if it's 60 feet back but the way the way we're talking though is there is room on the West Side yep there is um quite a bit and you could design using that space because then when you look at the house it the footprint really hasn't changed from the front or the side yard so if could you pull up the site plan maybe that would be helpful yeah see all the see all the room you have in that in the yeah I'll call it the the the the Northwest Quadrant yes yes exactly and you've extended North which would also be fine I think Warren is is is respond I don't want to speak for you but it's fine I think he's concerned about the extensive addition to the East and I think if it were a small porch addition on on I think I'd be okay with that depending on how it's configured I'm not sure what Warren would say but um I think that that might be a reasonable starting point for you to so you could try and get close to the programmatic desires of your client we do have to keep in mind the square footage component that you brought up Ear well the square footage component no longer becomes an issue if they leave that 14t wide by 26t long block because they're not demolishing it therefore the addition is no longer in danger of being larger than the existing structure we could build but we're going to build in front of it correct and you're you're you would accept that yep it wouldn't be in violence our standards all I'm trying to do is speak to our standards I'm not try to make anything up right yeah um I have a question regarding the standards does the ultimate use of the property play any role that's a zoning issue I I'm I realize I realize it is it's typically a zoning issue I think it's easier to think of the standards they are they're standards they're part of the zoning ordinance and it's a it's an additional um layer of Regulation yeah so with the with the uses and all of that we're worried about preserving a the appearance historic house and in this instance a key historic house which elevates it to the next level I mean you're it's it's from my per base it's it's wonderful that you have a key key contributing house in we feel very fortunate to have acquired property there's no question about it and and and I would hope you'd be willing to do whatever is necessary to maintain that and we're willing to try to work with you to get the living space you need but not willing to jeopardize key contributing and just to clarify that one last piece I I'll just read specifically the statement from the standard on page 53 new addition should be smaller than the historic building so once you remove that historic piece what remains of the historic building would be smaller than the addition you're proposing it should be subordinate in both size and design to the historic building and this came up in an earlier submission yeah you you already quoted that did statute or that aspect of it yeah okay I guess we were a little confused because we felt that it was subordinate to the existing house but it's not smaller because once you remove so you're saying if you remove it you have to recalculate as though it wasn't there ever because what's what's I correct in that because what's remaining of historic building is what you're comparing it to as though it was never there correct okay I and that that's a calculation that we didn't understand when we went through the and it's a little it's even worse in a way no it compounds it yeah I does because the the historic report says that it's the historic configuration of the house has not been altered therefore it's massing boy if we allow you to take away that big of a piece of it it's I'd be real surprised if it retained its contributing status well we're not not interested in having the property no longer contribute of course you're not we did talk about it sounds would you rather do you know we we feel very strongly several things restoring ask the real porches that were there as opposed to the concrete bunker that has been built with including a prefab concrete front stairs I mean it's it's a cheap and dirty yeah version of it the porch work is beautiful I think agreed on that um Margaret was asking you know this bay window question it's kind of a mystery because I I I you know sometimes construction happens and think people do things you wouldn't expect them to do this could have been built this way because somebody said I Want It That Way um if you would prefer that bay window be two stories they would like that I I would and again you know I'm the chair but I'm only one vote it seems to me if you want to try to make that bay work it it would be easier to make it work by being two stories I think it enhances the room above it quite a bit I mean yeah we' B the idea we we just felt that we didn't know if that was original or not we did we should propose altering it so if you feel that that's better we would be happy to well because it's there we can try to work with you I mean if if that wall were retained uh as it was originally built then we wouldn't be having this convers and the other thing you've done is you've put a foundation under it which I think incredibly enhances its presence and part being part of the house so it would make sense sure take it up another floor yeah I think it would tie into the house much much better and although it does screw up the window pattern on what's shown now but you could fix that easily enough on the second floor yeah not to make trouble but right up the street from that the uh Shake house that was owned by kenon Virginia yure yes I'm sure you remember them yes on the front porch one of their main main Windows was probably as big as that pain window or even bigger because I can remember being in that room and thinking oh my God that thing ever broke so I I think because they were on the oceans side with the view the more glass and the less frill on it the the more it really opened up a great view so I I don't I don't think there's uh there's uh not any chance that that was put in originally um so you you're you think it's original yeah okay one thing in support of what John's saying too I don't think it was original I I can't I'm not sure if the one in the one up the street is it's that's IM material too it it looks like an addition and we're talking about trying to blend it or well another thing fixing it in such a way that it would fit in better the uh the the directions of the wind here mean that they're going to hit the uh the side of the house coming off the ocean and John's saying if we do the construction over there I think it's you're going to pick up a whole lot more Breeze particularly if you're going to put an open screen porch somewhere along there that would be a better side to put it on as well as uh afternoon sun to enjoy it at other seasons of the year what maybe I'm just misreading this what happened to the um chimney does that go away in the new plan it did go away what happens to what the chimney um I I just to make sure we're asking all questions sotion inter second Flor window looks awfully original to me yeah D yeah oh yeah although it appears to be in line vertical clear close vertical in line with the Second Story window I'm sorry yeah that edge the front edge is pretty much in line so it seemed I'm this is a key house so I'm not encouraging you to do anything with with the envelope yeah yeah with the exception of that the of the back corner on the left side which is not visible from anything um but if you were trying to get that to fit in it just seems like that would be a a better way of doing it um and everybody agree with that and would provide some interesting inside visibility yeah can we just let's just clarify this Bay treatment we're talking about the bump out the whole Bay m is the feeling of the board that if that was a two story instead of one story it would it would work better on that side of the Hat proper it's my opinion so okay sounds like we we are not we're not opposed to that I I actually back of envelope originally said boy it'd be really nice in this bedroom to have that upstairs but if you did that I think it does because it's an Eastern exposure to out to the inlet we talked about that we just didn't want to alter the facade no you were afraid that this committee would rejected well but if you did that I think it does need a foundation under it like the one that you were proposing in the okay yeah so you mean going all the way down to the ground all the way down to the ground yeah well because it look like part of the structure so I do have a question though that I didn't ask the the raise it up 28 great putting in the new retaining wall I'm assuming that retaining wall would be brick like the foundation correct okay good and the what would the cap be brick brick cap not a Sandstone or or we talked about blue stone did blue stone talk about blue stone even better great but John aren't we further increasing the massing of this and it's less subordinate by going two stories are you talking about the bump out the in my in my view no because it's it's a completely subordinate element it's it's a it's a feature as opposed to a mass right it doesn't quite qualify as a mass and I mean we're talking some pretty esoteric definitions here but I I don't have a problem with yeah I'm just concerning though it's a rectangular Plan Building and getting a little I I would look at it differently though it's it's this thing H has this bay window that's there which I I don't feel that it was original and this would just improve tying it into the house and making it appear more original and fitting for that the house I mean if you if you just want to be really strict to a key contributing house it ought to be taken off I think there yep but because as a colonial revival he wouldn't have seen that kind of an right probably not so regarding the chimney I know there are there's a house behind me that can we come to the chimney in a second I want I want to get the bay window concluded okay and so we can know what we are going to do about it and then we'll come to the chimney sorry thank you sir I appreciate that does anyone object to the conversation that we've had regarding the rection the idea going stories I I would personally say that since it's exist it's already there it's part you know documentation of the building I would say probably like to see that big window separated Windows style of house and I would agree with the two windows which I think that's been talked about do you have any objection no that that bay window is right on what's going to be a sitting room right in the center of it that that was which would brighten up that room make it feel a whole lot bigger and that is a little bit more the darker side of the house most of the time yeah that's your morning sign I I would like to have it if if for function yes yeah I I would I if if I was moving into that house I would like to see that way of getting more light into we're actually we're trying to get more light into the house in general because it is it is pretty dark so what would be really helpful in the future would be to have so I I was trying to figure out I of course I couldn't help myself wow if I that if we had to keep that Wing L-shaped what would you do I couldn't because there were no existing floor plans so it'd be really helpful to have both existing and proposed floor plans oh yeah and and one one small thing just so you know on on HPC1 uh I think we are calling proposed Basin plan is second floor and proposed first floor is third third floor okay there must have been a mistake I think it's just a typ that's all it sounds like maybe you got the wrong package uh it's HPC 2011 yeah it may have been a mistake isn't there a duplicate page do you have two of those same Pages oh see no okay I was looking at that today honestly easy fix the other version didn't have it it correctly and we have existing floor plan drawings they just weren't submitted in the package fine but we have them I mean and actually it was just a curiosity for me as I was trying to figure out how to lay out listen I I also would welcome the committee to come walk through the house and if if you want to see a museum to a house of the way it's been for a very long time this is it uh there's no air conditioning in the property all the transom Windows second and third floor bedrooms all have fully functioning operating transom windows so equally what I'd like to do is encourage you guys to come and meet with us on our tues in our Tuesday Morning sessions with some proposed ideas and as as opposed to having to commit to coming to a formal meeting like this it's a back and forth exchange and we can help each other what what I would suggest though at this point there's been a lot of dialogue and conversation I would suggest we table this um my take is if we were to vote it wouldn't work but if we table it and you agreed to the 45 day uh extension give you time to think about all the things that have been discussed and the options and Alternatives um and we are available um Tuesday Mornings at 8:30 except the day after this meeting um and and run some ideas by us or vice versa we'd be glad yeah I think that makes sense to do that could I add to that Dave if you did maybe sketch some of the additions you'd like to do the one-story breakfast room and a screen porch if you tried to put those on the other side of the house like John's saying I think that would also kind of help see it just on right we're going to look at some options uhu sure Mr Schultz I just have a procedural question it's the same one I've been asking everybody all night I'm looking at your zoning chart I see conforming conforming conforming do you and you checked conceptual do you anticipate having did you anticipate having to go to the board for this application zoning board we do not okay all right so you're you're looking to do a compliant zoning plan and come to yes okay this is yeah we're here for conceptual review okay we know we know that we were going to be coming back okay I would I would just comment by the way you talked about your house being a museum inside um not strictly but um when a house is identified as key contributing the idea there is that if the inside were as pristine as the outside it may in fact be strong enough to stand on its own as a historic site and that's the idea of designating a key structure which is why it's so difficult then to add to it I don't know I mean I just want to mention the inside I think has been altered quite a bit it looks like there's a tutor influence on the inside they created a lot of faux beams it's very dark you know somebody decided to change Styles at some point when t t became popular you know the commenting about why the difference between a key and a contributor so procedur early tabling gives us 45 days to resubmit the existing so to speak is that what the 45 days or a new drawing so yeah and and procedurally the board is basically saying if based on the comments tonight this isn't ready for prime time and the board could take a vote but it wouldn't be what you're looking for so the purpose of saying hey why don't we table it and the applicant we have to act within 45 days unless the applicant consents and waves the time and of course that gives you time to to engage in this process more instead of getting a decision that might be unfavorable based on the discussion well I I I think we are you in favor of coming back to them with a revised plan yes uh that avoids a resubmittal correct you're still in que I understand thank you um I for one would love the idea of walking through it because lots of times that I know I pick up a lot of feel from going through houses and seeing you know what you want inside and a judge to judge I we we welcome the opportunity for you to come see it it's it's it's a horror show I well I I I had a very similar situation when I had the main stay in which was key key building and I knew nobody wanted me to take the left side the street side of that and go out and if I could have really afforded it I could go out on the other side like we're talking about and made a far better kitchen and things like that but uh I I certainly didn't have the money to do it well listen we with it the initial budget that's Pres been presented by one possible Builder is equal to what we paid for it so I I haven't quite choked on that but uh I haven't had to write the check for it either so yeah uh so but let's sorry I was goingon to I was going to come back to his his question about the chimney both of your questions about the chimney because I'm not trying to avoid that question my only point being is that you know in 1913 there would have been a chimney there and sometimes it looks like a modern reconstruction there is a property behind my house that was contributing and they somehow they had to move the fireplace but they built a nonfunctioning chimney in the same spot and for the streetcape it was correct yeah so if is that a problem we can do that yeah not functioning but the No No we we can we can recreate the chimney so it appears above the roof line yeah might be slightly different spot so looks like there's a CH you know they're not going use that fireplace period appropriate so um you agree to waving the 45 days and uh we'll table this keeps you in the queue um you're is that reasonable for your workload yeah we can make that happen sure um really the Restriction that you're waving is the restriction on us it's on us it's not on you you can take you have to act within 45 days of you making a a submission even if we table even if we table submission today you still have to act with him you're waving well no you'd be waving that you'd be saying you know what you guys don't have to act in 45 days let us with Mr Schultz yeah we have a we have a form I can send you okay yeah we're comfortable with you not having to act on this submission with to avoid the fire drill allow you guys the time to work if we needed more time we would have it that way I understand now yeah you you can take as much time as you need and we're available to help so um do I have a motion to I make a motion that the application be tabled for further review and we also have an agreement that we can extend the 45 days with the uh Property Owners second is that you Kevin motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr hammeron Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Johnson yes Mr hammeron thank you 27% was right what it's less now your calculation was correct it I mean take 88 square feet out of yeah no I just didn't understand it how it worked yeah yeah you tear it off you star and correct this thank you all very much scary sometimes as we stated we would invite you you any and all if you were interested in coming through I I'll join with Tom I'd love to what what will shock you is that they were living in the house last summer so what I really also want to see is the is the state of those lanced Arch windows they're they're mixed yeah some are better than others I have but I may have to go there thank you thank you very much just give me a um next next order of business so so have I missed anything yeah we're all worn out okay this is a bit different um this is the next order of business is Jim's property and I thought um just to make sure that we shed daylight um on a members property that Jim present what he wants to do um and we can also because he's a member we can give him a little bit of a break about not having 13 copies and and all of that this I think is uh was reasonable to consider and review but as I said I think members of the commission should should be public on on what what they're doing and so we don't need a whole long formal presentation but it is appropriate Jim to right share with us well if you'll permit me I'll sit in seat instead of going and testifying at the chair um this this is um a um long sought after uh completion of a few small items relating to 1501 Beach and particularly um in the focus of the backyard area it involves the removal of a 1990 AAS fence which is completely deteriorated and Fallen apart a cedar fence which was done with HBC approval back in the uh in in the early days back in the days so removal of that fence and a um creation of essentially a secluded Courtyard on the Northern property line between the rear of the house and the Eastern side of the garage garage is non-contributing obviously the house is key contributing no um alterations to the house um with respect to the to the Courtyard or the garage so we'll have a um a split fence coming from the Eastern BR of the property to an existing brick wall that's about uh um 80 ft of fence uh it is Murphy 301 which we've approved before and the remainder of the fence will run Westward from um a brick wall which is going to be along the northern property line about 20 feet worth of brick wall um brick wall will form an L with an existing brick wall that runs to the property line the the wall and the fences unlike the fence that's here now which is on the property line the wall will be set back uh and so will the fence from the property line U fence is going to be 5 ft in height um and the wall will be brick chosen to match the existing brick as Clos as possible with a 2-in limestone cap on the top 5 foot worth of wall matching 4 foot worth of wall making a 90° angle and a patio that will then form in that L of approximately 400 to 425 square feet with slate likee pavers belluard pavers uh it's a it's it's a project that we've had in mind for a long time and given the noise and everything else around us on on Baltimore and on beach it'll produce a a more secluded Courtyard in the backyard for those of you who've been there and have walked on the back um that's that's where it is right in that space between the garage and and the backyard and the last part of the uh of the request is to complete the protection by putting in now six additional storm windows to replace the four that are on the facade which were originally applied for and passed in 1990 uh as you can see from the submission they're Allied whole bees their single frame um curv top customade uh and uh given the the weather in the area um it's been our determination for a long time that once we finished reconditioning uh each of the uh 10 windows and there are 10 Dormers and they've now been completely taken down reconditioned on the outside repainted reglazed uh and and it's really our desire to now protect them with the same storm protection that the four have enjoyed since 1990 U the windows are way up high they're unobtrusive U and it's really now time to put 10 of them in since we can afford that um that's the project any questions for this applicant it's it's for Kevin on the north south run which is the existing wall it appears now that that we will probably not be able to save it but we rebuild it at 4T with the Limestone cap it'll join the eastwest portion of the new brick wall which will be five um with again a 2-inch Limestone cap on top it and the Brick's going to be as close as we possibly can to match the original Foundation bricks and just to be clear the the paved area of the new patio is though in Blue Stone will be virtually identical to the existing concrete area virtually identical great your glass in your storm windows are you using any kind of protective glass to protect uh um it's it's Pilkington it's Pilkington low E which is a slight gray tint um to it but no more dark than a screen would appear in in a window um it's only available in standard glass but but Tom with with the the protection of the storms and the original sash behind it we're pretty satisfied that we can withstand the house is 120 years old um and the original sashes have been reconditioned and they've you know they've rathered well but we want to be as well protected as we can great and you know that you know the weather it's 300 feet from the ocean right so yeah it doesn't get any worse do I have a motion I'll make the motion that the the application be approved as presented motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Mr hammer and Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Johnson yes Mr hammerin Jim are you voting no I'm going to abstain thank you my own application you have to pay but I would vote Yes if I had to I abstain um open to the public there no no public um here and so we're going to close it to the public and move to the discussion point we have two discussion issues tonight um one is the the map we'll talk about in a moment the other is the parking beneath residential buildings and boat trailer parking not ready for that yet um and um it's my understanding that um we've been invited or encouraged to present to planning um that program that was approved by this August a but was turned down by planning so the question is um we've had two two members of this committee that worked on that and the question is if you are so inclined to want to present it to planning to try to get that through or just let it rest for the moment you potential yes but I don't have that here but um so this to present the parking beneath residential structures yes outside the historic district outside the historic district well there's two parts to that there's the there's the are we nothing's been changed from original so so as I remember it was a it was here's here's a memo here's a here's B basically yes but it was also a little confusing and apparently you got I watched that planning meeting and would you turn your mic on John yeah watching the recording of that planning meeting nobody presented it and even even the letter that um Chris wrote wasn't read until after folks had already started commenting so I think uh by the letter you mean the the memo there's a there's a memo and and a letter and an email that kind of outlined where it was coming because everybody's the discussion was where's this coming from exactly and there there was an email saying where it came from kind of it was It was kind of strange and and I and I would take some of the blame although I I was not aware that it was on the agenda something like that should never never go before planning without HPC there to do the presentation and explanation so um I administratively it was just a mistake I think by the HBC and the question is um uh fine May there two things that trouble me a little bit first is it would be really nice to know that when materials go from here to the planning board just like we read our materials and we take heed of what is sent to us that they actually read and get prepared for their meetings with with what's sent to them that's point one point two is is it's this it's pretty seem seems clear to me that without ADV advocacy this isn't going to go anywhere correct so um in that I completely agree and it it would be very politic for the planning board to tell us exactly when we could present it oh they gave us a date I just didn't what is that date do we know J it's a secret day it's not a problem even if it's not sufficent time we could get the next month okay it's it's in the office there I mean and and I and I would also say that it would make some difference if um we not only presented but we some of us even if not presenting appeared at at the meeting so I'm more than willing to appear at that meeting and and my belief really is that um and I will too great I mean and but but it seems to me that as the respected chair of this body you should be the person presenting on our behalf um our proposal I I'm I am willing to go before the planning and introduce the subject and um U and turn it over to who John well I think I think John would John would take the lead of it since well if if Warren you know says thank you all for giving us the time uh want to present this to you and our most informed person on it is John and you know he he can explain things so well and apologize for the confusion okay and and we would be we would be there to support it and so we'll have the date okay cool all right okay um I suspect that it's Dead on Arrival but that's all right I think I have to make the presentation anyway yeah well I mean it doesn't mean we shouldn't give it the old College try I do love the back off position which yeah yeah our our our esteemed um solicitor was wise enough to incorporate into that document um so we'll get a text out to Among Us I think a number of us know people on the planning board and it's a lot harder to say no when you know you're looking at some of your friends out there that are and Tom that's exactly why I think we should put an appearance in more than just two people I didn't know we had any never mind never mind changing subject so we got that done right thank you um we've been working on this map for like 10 years or something and um we had some confusion at the meeting with planning on this also and then planning um wanted us to contact the properties that are in involved I don't object to that it it it's worth noting however that you can change an ordinance without notifying everybody it happens all the time but in this instance we will bring the the people forward this is a big administrative issue there's like 87 properties um that are impacted and that meant U Judy would have to do all kinds of work to figure out the name and addresses and all that of all those people and it would have been a lot easier to do it uh automatically uh automated and so that required that we take the map that we previously approved and redo it in a system and then it's there so we can use it forever and ever and we can also use it immediately for the names and addresses of the 87 properties and so um that I think makes sense for us to re-approve the map for oh probably the fourth time since we were going to approve it for the fourth time there were certain parts of the map you may recall that had historic sites these were the little shaded areas off in the corners and um since sometime before 2006 um they just continued to exist and so since we're doing the map again I decided to drive around Kate May and look at these properties that are supposed to be historic sites and that's the properties do you have a list of so these are the four little blue blue dots yep three right three areas it's for those are um the bit on Maryland the bit on Michigan you're you're looking first of all tell me what I'm looking at that's that's the existing okay let's this is the one that we're going to look at the blue is the existing now so just for tonight this is the one we want to look at this is the same that we've approved a couple times now with the exception of a few historic sites and the only historic sites that held up were this block this block here Maryland is that Maryland well it goes block 1149 right yes and and those properties you have a list here this is uh 1305 um so that's well let's not talk about the the addresses so it goes New Jersey New York Maryland so those pieces on Maryland between Trenton and Pittsburgh yep they they are either contributing already been surveyed and and are contributing or appear to be contributing there here and they're in the back guys this is it oh yeah 1305 Maryland say yeah so these are the and the ones behind it the ones in front of it are the ones that we have taken out for whatever reasons so that's why there's an X right on them it's clever isn't it the way I communicate X um okay scientific um but it any rate they are not contributing they are not historic sites and they don't belong WR on the map so that means these two other blue dots on the existing map should not be there and that's what this that's what this is yep everything else about this the yellow map is what we've already approved before um and this is what we will go forward with to planning so I do have a question about the blue map just to be clear okay on the blue map there are a bunch of properties that are not blue but are the beige color like the streets are is and if you look at the legend it says Kate May historic district existing are all the blue ones so there are some those are the ones missing teeth those that's what's added good that's these I just want to make sure that's and you can see are the same as we've proed only an FYI but all that's why the key wasn't all I'm trying to clarify is that there are for example a bunch of houses along I guess that's New York or New Jersey I can't remember which New Jersey New York Maryland as it goes up from Beach that have a bunch of missing teeth on them in the blue map that are we're now incorporating into the store dist yeah got it all right so it's as it turns out since we had a little bit of time we cleaned it up a little bit more that's why it has a new date on it yes great so shall we move that the map presented to this meeting attached as exhibit whatever it is I I would move that the that the that the Kate May historic district Local District map dated August 12 2024 prepared by Paul dietr city engineer be approved by us you have a second second but I would say you know an attached it's going to be attached to something to the resolution whatever yes I'll second the motion I'm Sor oh right good this one good point and and in which the historic district is delineated in yellow or beige yes this just confusing this is this is a reference this is so we should get rid of this yes is that clear Judy yes thank you okay motion by motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Tesa Mr Co yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Testa yes Mr Johnson yes Mr hamran yes thank you I will just share something with this board about this topic and for those of you that may have not been following this but Kevin referenced it earlier the njd is proposing these new flood regulations that could substantially change the way people have to raise their houses and the substantial Improvement rules but there and Mr Dietrich has talked about it a couple times at our Council meetings there is some different treatment for historic properties so there may be an opportunity I think for education on whatever those final regulations are as it relates to being incorporated into this District so if there's people that are receiving notice you know there might be some information related to those new regulations that might be relevant to being considered historic or not I think everybody's still trying to City Administration is still trying to get it grapple with what the final regulations will be and how that'll interact with historic status I just bring that up because the timing of that they're they're do making uh they're doing the public comment on that now heading into the fall and um that might be relevant to some of the individuals that might receive so so that public comment period is still open now yes there's there's a c there's a couple dates uh I believe in September it's on the njp website but anybody that lives should we be should the city should we be commenting on it is there something that we should the city has already officially commented the resolution um Mr LX from Lomax Consulting was working with the county and bringing up countywide concerns with these regulations um so I think there's definitely the city has voiced its opinion joining with the other uh County communities but I think it's only two that haven't join everyone so then the period closes and they chew it around and Trenton decides what to promulgate exactly and it's as you know Mr Testa it's an administrative rule making it's not you know our state senators or assemblymen voting no no I'm I'm familiar with the process for every agency that we've dealt with sometimes sometimes though they actually listen to you which would be a good idea could you would would you add to what Chris has said I think there were two other comments one was um Paul suggested that potentially a a historic district might be Exempted from the regulations altogether if I if I understood his comment right I and I think I I I can't say that for sure tonight but I think definitely uh historic status is a consideration under the current regulations how that's going to carry forward in these new ones is something that um I think we just want to keep an eye on because it's relevant to this map like I give you an example if somebody gets a notice for this eventually and says what does this mean for me it may mean that you have to come to this board but there may also be some benefits under those regul those new regulations be W from the insurance requirements right it's something to keep an eye on it it's relevant to this I can I can contact the State and see if see if they have some information for you know hpc's about exe potential exemptions they may right and I just bring that up because I I can tell you at the council level a manager level it's something we're all keeping an eye on are are these the kinds of of um of of comment periods where the comments that are fed and are publicly available to see or do they just digest them secretly from they uh the I've seen uh I think they have zoom links Mr Testa so the njd dp's website has ways to participate in the public comment here I have one on my counter the other two I had confli conflicts with but there's definitely one in September that is a virtual one and I think that it's also been suggested by a member of the taxpayers association that maybe we should have a town hall regarding this if it goes further down the line big issue I think the other just as a general comment was the kind of this view that somehow this this regulation is really seemingly kind of focused on Central and South Jersey when in fact North Jersey is every bit as bur to flooding as we are yeah it's just a question of whether it's rivers of the ocean it's just rivers of the ocean I mean it's so having voted on our map are we going to carry this forward to The Next Step yes we're going to carry forward to the next step the timing has changed a little bit because of this change of map and now we have to get the addresses and um we have to make sure we have a date available we did have a date available we have to make sure we have the date available at the convention center and so I would expect we might be pushed off a month so so it looks like it'll most likely be a September rather than the late August that we were thinking of before yes so it's September October it depends on when we can get notices out to everybody and and the availability of the facility anything else one question anything further on the status of our illustrious leaon proposal not finished with our resolution yet oh okay just check it one quick thing too Judy had something had sent something out earlier um a property that we discussed last week I'm not going to mention the address was concerned about massing on a contributing property uh riding past it you know the windows in it now there are there are no um Mion at all in them they're just plain windows and it's a a key contributing I believe and has a little thin plastic strip up in the top inside now I don't know what the the windows were that were previously there but it I don't know whether it was something on our part that we slipped and didn't say you had to put the right windows in well that we have an approval an HBC approval and it they either didn't follow the approval or we well we didn't specify or we made an error yeah that's one reason we have Bruce though I mean sort of our I mean we hard to believe we didn't specify they look like modern windows that don't look like they belong on that property I would agree so so this is a relatively recent construction project since you're oh it's ongoing yeah so so clearly if if it was before us we were pretty clear about the windows yeah but Bruce is very good at handling oh I understand that yeah yeah so he's still alive to yeah so far's good at can I can I add something on comment yes would you pull the mic close to Kevin sure it's hard to hear sorry about that if I can just add one more comment on the liaison proposal there there was also a discussion at one of the board's meetings I can't remember was the last one or two I think it was two ago about having the chairs from all the meetings get together for a regular session to to coordination for coordination purposes between the planning Council the zoning HPC and others and I just don't know if that's gone anywhere but I know there was a discussion about that maybe you could help with that I'm sorry Kevin I I missed the first part of that my hearing must be failing Kevin even though you're by the microone yeah I'm sorry there was a discussion at one of the City Council meetings I don't remember which one I I think it was two back um that it it popped up about the fact that there had been confusion between a couple of the of the boards you know the that things just had not flow flowed well from one to the other and they they had a discussion about having a like a coordination meeting between the chairs of the boards once every quarter or something like that as a way of you know kind of smoothing Communications between the boards and things like that I just was curious if there that had gone anywhere um nothing further beyond that discussion I think it's a good idea though um and it could help Foster some of this uh communication but I I actually think what was talked about tonight sending a delegation to go talk about these things face to face is there's nothing better than that when you're talking about these things cu said Mr Carol it's a lot easier to you know maybe the email is in the back of the packet or something like that but when somebody's talking to you and communicating an idea there's nothing better to get that discussion going so G Kevin there's a there is a another or the uh core c r e uh it's a cultural organization round table and about quarterly we try to get representatives from what now 14 16 different non for-profits together and share good ideas share what's working for you help needed uh join publicity uh so this would be something that could be just as helpful too on a on a whole different area seems like a good idea so Chris that's a takeaway for you uh you want me to summon summon all the chair that went up right on you the only way that would work is through city council yeah and our leason is not here well yeah one one organization reaching out to everybody is not going to work it seems like that it should be a top down if we're going to do it it would be a top down situation and might be something well it might it might make some sense for the three land use boards I mean I'm not so sure with the other things that it makes a lot of sense but and I'm I'm not so sure even that a a quarterly thing is going to solve much but we have had very little good communication with planning and with zoning and and if that helps great but but to have to have us respected to be on the agendas to have communication and not be surprised about stuff that's going on I I don't I it's to me it's it's more than just a matter of meeting it's a matter of courtesy people who you know they just have to respect other people the other boards as we would they so to [Music] be and Kevin I don't think a lot of this stuff should be surprises I think I think when we prepare something and it goes somewhere else we do our homework we send it along and if people send things to us they expect us to read them and to be ready to talk about them and trly respect uh I would think for fortunately you know in making our decisions we we have some presumptions that what we do is right and those have been formalized but that's that's just the legal presumption of you know acting in in place that are reasonable coordination and communication among our three City boards would be a lot better if we we you know we we did things to improve that this isn't the first couple of times when this stuff has happened so well I can certainly communicate to council that the HPC shares in that sentiment that you know having that type of meeting is would be a positive thing and maybe on a regular basis yeah and also Chris I I would say it it also you the leadership of the boards has to be responsible and responsive to that uh I mean you have to that's that's part of being a leader part of being one of the you know being a chair do doing that so good thank you anything else I I have something I I also I mean perhaps I should apologize because I should have provided you with the date of the planning board meeting I think they simply just put it on their agenda once we sent the paperwork over and there was a lack of communication um I'd like to ask the par about HPC training we have a mandatory 8-hour training every year is my understanding and now we're you know we're in the middle of August have you heard anything from the state or I haven't I just wondered if you wanted me to reach out to them or do we want to organize our own training but they're going to ask for it in that CLG report we organized our own training before um uh it's interesting because I talked to Andrea today um there was some TR earlier I mean this this flood issue may be a a training opportunity but there was some training earlier that was online that some of the people yeah there was and there was and I've missed it I know I have I do keep track people I'm thinking this Jud Judy I know there was there was some training early in the year on the I think it was on the use of some of the replacement materials substitute materials substitute materials I know I I was on for like one day of it there was a two-day I think on it I couldn't get on the second day I had a problem with the internet connection but all right I'm going to I'll send out my sheet and you guys can all respond to me was eight hours as I recall was it okay I just want to make sure that we we complete our mandatory training by the end of the year no certificate eight hours and and are they cumulative by the way um I think probably I think it's 8 yes it can be yeah well you had to yeah you basically just signed up for it You' got enough and they they didn't didn't give you a keyw or q word or anything else it it doesn't the training doesn't necessarily result in a test it's eight eight hours really of training some of it is online and some of it is going to that meeting train which it it's difficult to figure out where you want to go because you know most of us are beyond what is being presented there and so we need new material which is available online and so Judy put a list together that we could all sign up for yeah pip used to remind us of that she was involved so yeah no we have to do it I have uh one other just minor I think housekeeping item and was sidebarr with uh Judy during the meeting but and I got a copy of her packet today um she has these helpful emails to the applicants but I and to avoid me sucking the air out of every application asking them if they have authority from their client I really don't want it from the architect I want it from the client so and the board and I don't think anybody can come in here and send their professional in here and just say oh I didn't agree to that in fact the court agreed with us on that but I don't want to invite any future confusion on that issue so what I suggested to Judy is you know we're pretty flexible with having an architect come in if somebody lives in PA or whatever it is but um if you're not going to be here let Judy know which they do but also indicate that hey this is the person I'm sending in they have authority to speak for me and to agree to any conditions and I want that in an email at least before the meeting um and if they don't indicate that in writing to Judy that may mean hey we're not hearing you tonight instead of me asking the person that I'm not necessarily looking for the recommendation from I'm looking for it from the person who submitted the application because sometimes it's the architect who's here and signing the application documents and I don't even have anything signed from the from the applicant themselves so we're really so why why don't we insist on applicants signing applications that's a good question um I I I mean it's perfectly fine to designate a representative and in fact we have a space for it um maybe the application just ought to be signed by the owner the applicant and so I'm the applicant I sign it and I designate my Representatives as so and so and they sign and and I also want them to confirm if they're not going to be here sitting in that chair listening to that person talk on their behalf I want them to say look I'm not going to be there but they have every they can make agree to whatever conditions and you know put that in writing before we consider their application because we I think we've had that in the past rarely but it yeah we have we've a couple of situations where there's been a denial a denial of authority sure um and many people who have come in just sit down and say uh I'm sorry they couldn't be here there was a medical emergency that and but I uh i' talked to him and I can do it we at least need an email that they say yes this is the person that can do it I I agree with you 100% on that um I I I following the logic of that though if somebody doesn't have that and they send their architect here does that mean we're not going to listen to their case yeah I I think just want to fault just want to make sure strictness of it that's we have places to sign and it's not hard to it would not be difficult or honorous to comply with this requirement all they have to do is respond to Judy and say I'm not going to be there I can't make it I'm four hours away but this is the person you can listen to and they they they can agree to conditions they can present the plan and I agree to be bound by whatever they put on the record if they can't agree to that then then you need to come down I mean this is what Chris gave me is the standard email I send out to people confirming that they're on the agenda you're on the agenda on such and such a date sometimes I've spoken to them and tell them verbally they're on the agenda but this is the formal just like you get a an email this is the one that goes out to the applicants so it's going to be in that email and that it goes to the owner who I'm I require the email of the owner and their representatives sometimes it's an architect and an engineer and a builder sometimes it's just the owner so it'll it'll go out every deadine by they need to respond no because the meeting by the time the agenda is finalized it's often within a week of the meeting so there it's it's close so that's the best I can do and if she if she doesn't have an email it can be pulled and it probably should be pulled if somebody can't just send an email saying this is the person that has the authority to speak on my behalf it's such a simple thing to do Light Lift and avoids all this confusion of me asking the person every time add what Chris gave me to the email I I hate to drag you folks on a little further but do that the last minute and then Judy will have to chase him and say you know hey look you know we're going to have to pull your application if you can't get this email into us by today or tomorrow or something like that that really I don't should not be that hard to get no and and I don't put that on Judy at all it's if you don't get her what what the Board needs then they're not heard it could be the rule and a lot of boards a lot of boards sometimes say look I can't I'm not even going to accept this day of exhibit you know we're we're pretty flexible um and reasonable and that's that's not unreasonable to require that as a condition there there is there is something I'd like to put on the table and I don't expect we're going to solve it tonight but I'd like to mention it we we have our series of our system of approvals in review uh which generate approvals sometimes denials but generate approvals and and our practice seems to be that as soon as that Review Committee acts we send out notice to applicants and we tell them they're approved sometimes um that happens so fast that we don't discover that we've made some mistakes um and we aren't able to pull that approval very gently because it's just out there and people rely on it uh I think we should give some thought to and and and as i' as I see it I mean the Review Committee functions under our ordinance um with the ability both the chair and the Review Committee to actually pass on minor applications in a definitive way so there isn't any any there isn't any legal reason I see why we actually vote on those um approvals and review except to ratify and approve saying we ratify what the Review Committee has done uh and I think that's a good thing because we all have a chance to look at it we all have a chance to catch things sometimes I do but by the time I do the Review Committee has acted and the approval is gone out by email sometimes there's a condition attached to it which is good because it's not totally final but I would propose we consider slowing down the process of the approval emails till at least the full commission can look at those things and ratify them and raise the problems it still gives people a a quicker path it still gives them the ability to know that their project won't require a full hearing anyway I like us to consider that process so help me because I thought that we tell all the yes we've approved it here in review but it's not official until it gets ratified at the commission meeting yeah that's not what I understand well that's true but it gets sent to them when it gets stamped that the procedure that I inherited is what I'm what I'm in I mean I think John you could construe that what gets sent out it is approval and and when I see that I'm going to rely on it U if it's an approval that says oh by the way conditioned on further inspection to find that you really don't have wood shingles and siding that's that's that's fine because it's conditional but most of these things are just out the door and and when you catch a mistake what do you do so they're not they're going out to the applicants before they're officially approved and and and you know fraud for example undoes a lot of stuff but we make we make some mistakes build into the process no less than a week of further review for let's say last appr I I I think I think it would build in a delay a time delay process whereby people like it's a month a well it could be a week depending on when the when the approval approved let's say last Tuesday something gets it gets on this tonight's agenda right and and as with as with earlier ones also not tomorrow but next Tuesday yeah then when we approve something in review y um then it would not be approved so um yeah I I I I thought that's the way was you I I really appreciate that we offer applicants with minor work the ability to have um a less involved process um if it's less involved it usually takes less time uh and and so they get a speedier resolution well not only not only that uh Jim is it saves us a lot of time there's a whole lot of I appreciate that Warr but what I don't want to do is have things go out where we've made mistakes and we can't call them back no and and and I think a second look by any of us free to review those things I know I I I know all of you I don't have a problem with that I'm I I arguing yeah I'm just I just come and I review the in review materials before we do our meetings and sometimes not often but sometimes I catch some stuff so I think it's great I have is are you proposing that none of those approvals get set sent out until We R them at this meeting correct I thought that was already the policy it's not the emails go out liy split and and it's not I would say I would say honestly at least half of the people ask me if I can expedite the review people want it the next day and sometimes they do get it the next day now but you technically have a 45-day review period And I do tell people that when they start to get pushy that it's technically 45 days we generally get them out within two weeks but now it's going to be it'll it could be could be 45 days what protect 45 day sure yeah and giving the board time to act now the board can always deny you know you can deny without prejudice you don't have enough information to make a call and then they have to resubmit with whatever there there's there's ways to to address the 45 days but to address Jim's point the there's no requirement that these things appear on a on an agenda for ratification it's basically a super approval of a Review Committee decision which under the code the Review Committee and the chair have that authority to do that on minor work and that that could serve as a basis for pulling a construction permit if you get through that and you don't need well that was that was my question I don't know why we're approving them twice I would suggest before we change it all of the whole system that we we and the Review Committee re adjust we we try to only deal with minor stuff and but but I think you you largely do I mean it's it's I don't think there's a a doubt that most of it is well before we change it because there's there the last two review meetings in fact there were some mistakes made and you don't we're not going to make mistakes if we stick to the original idea that if if there is any questions or comp complexity that it comes before the full stands the reason it should clear definition of what constitutes minor and what doesn't it's right out of the ordinance and it's a little bit gray but it's pretty it's pretty straightforward there's a little bit of a judgment call to be you read it and it appears to be something that can that really conforms squarely with the standards right and and but you know every standard and its Conformity has and and and John I mean you know you use professional interpretation how close is it really conform but obviously to the extent that you deal with less well one of one of the things that that and I don't go to those meetings but if you have minimum like I'm I'm thinking a materials list materials checklist um whatever they're presenting to you we could have more of a formula to deal with those approvals we we have a list of standardized conditions we give them resolutions why would we treat that any differently for a Review Committee approval you could have that that's an attachment that they get that would address things like if the plans change if the facts that were presented change it might be some reason to to reconsider that but I I would argue that um the Review Committee is is pretty clear it's the replacing wood steps with wood steps and to save this group sometime I think we have been a little bit more ambitious and um we don't want to mention any addresses but I mean one that we couldn't we couldn't figure out whether there were wood