##VIDEO ID:asZSeSej1Lk## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e who good evening historic preservation commission um city of Kate May September 16th 2024 it's just a couple minutes past 6 and compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been proved guided if any member is reasoned to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should state so at this time Pledge of Allegiance please pledge of alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson here miss bagum here thank you Miss Wilson stck here Mr hammerin here thank you minutes from August 12th 2024 you've had an opportunity to review those do I have a motion to accept them motion do I have a second second actually we did not have minutes this this month I'm sorry they were not prepared the minutes were not in your packet they're not completed well I sorry I see them on the send a motion resolutions Boer and Pano 1209 Lafayette Street block 1061 lot 83 point 03 resolution 202 2428 play tour 1515 1519 New Jersey Avenue 1175 Lots 7 through1 resolution 202 2429 29 Jordan 911 corgy block 1093 lot 16 resolution 20 2430 cooh Howard 298 Windsor Avenue block 1023 Lots 3 and four resolution 20 2431 and Testa 1501 Beach Avenue block 1174 Lots 28 and 29 resolutions 202 2432 do I have a motion to accept those resolutions so moved do I have a second second motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr hammerin Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Miss pagno um abstain thank you Miss Wilson stck I also abstain thank you Mr hammerin I yes yes thank you applications approved or denied in review you've had a chance to look at those do I have a motion to accept them so moved do I have a second second motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hamar yes thank you uh we have a a slight change in our agenda uh tonight before we go to Old business we're going to deal with a new business of um an important applicant here the city of Kate May um 643 Washington Street block 1059 lot of this a key contributing building and this will be a fence enclosure for the HVAC I appreciate you taking me out of order so I appreciate that thank you very much um you oh Paul Dietrich uh city manager city engineer for a city of Kate May thank you thank you um when I started reviewing the the building as as a whole here at City Hall um did an inspection with Public Works look around and there's just some some items as I walked around City Hall that I felt that needed to be um brought into compliance I'm going to say and um uh because if we're asking all of our residents to follow through and do certain things City Hall should be no different um we've also it was also a process where we had had a architect prepare A needs assessment for the city um which I was I have to get a copy of so I as soon as I can get it copies of for every board member for the next meeting I'll make sure to have a copy of A needs assessment that we did for several City buildings um but the first thing I wanted to tackle was we have five different locations where we have mechanical equipment outside uh that needs to be properly screened um we're proposing to put uh you know board onboard Uh Wood uh fencing around that similar to what was approved uh next next door at the church um we have two Ace air conditioning condensers on the I'll say the north side of the building uh two sets of condensers on the the south side and then there's the I'll say the generator and some other equipment is already enclosed by fence but it's we're going to replace that fence to match it with the new fence we have so that we have coordinating fencing uh around the entire building and obviously it'll be painted white so look the fencing you're proposing is what you gave us as a supplemental documentation that's that's a typical yeah of what we're building yes yes and this is wood right Paul wood yes and this is a final submission yes correct any other questions it's it's been a while with that exposed Mechanicals probably 15 years or so so for some of them probably yes maybe some a little bit less but I think it's long overdue to to freshen up and uh we're looking to some other cosmetic things over the winter uh hopefully as you stop in City Hall you'll see some of the other cosmetic maintenance of things we're going to be doing both interior and exterior here at this city city hall Mr chair can I just ask a quick question is this something that could have been handled during the um review the Review Committee well um I the position that I've taken on this is that the city and each member of the historic preservation commission should be come before the entire uh HPC so everything is clear above board and available to the public so it's this is the type of fence that could be could have been approved in review but for the reasons that I stated um I believe it we're in a better position to have an open okay discussion and I think we're doing that for All City projects you know not just this you know regardless to scope or scale I think I did they did look at it in review just to make sure that you know we had that discussion make sure we're on the right P pack TR just like everybody else um but really unlike other applicants this is really for a recommendation um not a full approval but you so it is appropriate to come here and and get a full recommendation you'll you'll also notice on our uh agenda that uh Tesa who is not here tonight as a member of the historic preservation commission um his project could probably have been approved in review also but again um I think it's important for all the members of the HBC to have open and public discussion of what's what's happening so um thank you do I have a motion can can I ask one quick question on the on the uh front page of the application under Roofing it says C Roofing page you're not bringing anything in about Roofing tonight no no so I would move to approve this final application as submitted do I have a second I'll second it motion by Mr Becker seconded by Miss Wilson stck Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammeron yes thank you thank you thank you thank you next order of business is uh old business 230 Grand Street uh K May LLC this is 230 Grand Street block 1019 lot 14 this is not rated and it's a new house [Music] would you uh turn on your mic please yes there you go and good evening uh thank you for representing our wonderful city of Kate May Katherine hey Seventh Generation in Kate May an owner of 230 Grand Street thank you and James Chadwick it's on okay James Chadwick architect and engineer licensed in the state of New Jersey thank you can you please pull your mic closer that that's a little far thank you yep that better thank you okay so take it away you want me to talk certainly uh we've been here before uh last visit uh I believe two months ago we received conceptual approval from the uh commission um there were three or four different recommendations that we've Incorporated uh into the plans that you have in front of you and and I've also provided three additional sheets at the back um subsequent to that conceptual approval as we were preparing the final plans and Gathering material samples and stuff like that Miss Healey met with I guess you would call it your subcommittee re yes Review Committee and I should have mentioned to the that's I should have mentioned to the um preservation commission that we did meet um in in review to as you know we don't approve things in review but because this application has been around a couple times we tried to give some feedback as to the appropriateness of of the presentation tonight thank you and and we very much appreciate your time and the time of the commission members um we had originally thought we might be able to get final approval but we understand that because we have a pending application with the planning board on a plot relocation subdivision that part that involves this property we can't get our final approval this evening and we're okay with that um what we wanted to do is to take a few minutes of the commission's time and talk about a couple specific items uh to make sure we're getting all the eyes dotted T's crossed and the design buttoned up the way uh you guys would wish it to be um so that we're not running a scance of of your thought patterns as well so I wasn't able to attend the subcommittee or Review Committee uh meeting that was held a couple of weeks ago two two weeks ago on a Tuesday and I I understand that during the course of that meeting or that discussion and I don't know who was there Warren was there doer and uh Mr Stevenson Mr Copeland and Mr Stevenson okay great um when we gained our conceptual approval part of our discussion was about the front stairs to this building and the fact that we didn't have a central front door it was actually a bathroom and there were doors on each side of the building we had designed a center stair that would enter the front of the building by walking from sidewalks on each side of the structure to converging stairs and then going up on the center of the porch a major part of the reason that we designed it that way is because uh as we've described in the past my client owns the adjoining property um three three continuous 248 236 and 230 this is the closest property to the beach on Grant Street so her children will live in each of the other two houses this being one of those while Kathy will maintain her residence in 248 but as a very close family they are going to intercommunicate from building to building frequently we wanted to create an easy path to provide access from that front porch to the adjoining building on 2366 and that's the reason why we designed the stair the way we did to come off of the front porch and then split if you're walking towards the street and you go to the left you can very easily go to 236 they're ad joining owned structure or if you go to the right you can walk down to the right side of left side of the building where the garage entry is and the main entry to the to the structure if if I could interrupt though so we we're not here all night to go through the same thing several times we have have looked at this project several times the stair that was originally designed goes up the front to nothing to Nowhere to no door it's not appropriate we had offered a couple of Alternatives I see one here on at the very back correct and my my goal proposing or my goal this evening was to have this brief discussion about what we designed and why we designed it that way and then then transition into I guess the concept that I've drawn as an alternative plan which I believe was Guided by the three board members as something that they desired so I didn't know how firm the position was of the Commission in providing that alternative design because my fear is that by coming up the center and then branching to right and left to two separate stairs in front of separate doors is that it's going to give this building the feeling of a duplex from the street and that's not what we want that's not the perception that we want to create so we felt by creating the single stair up to the center even though there's no door in front of it it is one porch that's all I wanted to explain and see if I can get some feedback members from the full board about which route we should go the issue that we addressed as a group here before and then we addressed in review was from a streetcape perspective which is the primary concern new construction for the historic preservation commission for a stair going to a wall simply didn't make any sense to the members of the HBC um there's a lot of reasons for perhaps but when you look at it from a streetcap perspective it's a stair that goes up to a window and I think gate we're planning to keep that gate closed you know I'm looking to have very young children out there and this is the third time we've had this conversation excuse me Mr chair could you speak a little more into your microphone yes I'm sorry thank you um the problem here is that we we're trying to be helpful we're trying to communicate what the objection was and then we worked with you trying to come up with some Alternatives it's fine at the end of the day you as an applicant are entitled to present your final view um to this commission that that's fine I mean it also changes ex we were trying to do a burm and and a very nice subtle plannings on either side so that the having the house up higher as it is needed to be having that floral nice uh different variety of flowers hydrangeas and things it allows us to have more it softens the porch instead of having the stairwell right in the middle uh the garden is as all my Gardens are they are [Music] beautiful I guess what I might ask without trying to be too forceful or too stepping beyond my bounds is maybe take a straw vote of the board members as to and maybe you won't allow this I don't know but as to which design they would desire based upon the explanation that I've given I don't think there's too much to ask and we're really trying to this is Healy point three continuous homes it's a large investment on my part and I'm going to keep these as private homes for my generations and fortunately I'm in my early 60s I hope to grow old here very old I'm already old but this the application um before we go there um if if the members remember there were some questions about the uh parking on under the thing and whether it was visible from the street or not and and that was addressed in this plan and um the in review the Review Committee we had made some comments but it appears to me that the applicant has has embraced our observations and our comments and I think the parking is is improved and and thank you and the landscape plan is is really uh quite nice the the question that was asked now is not whether we're going to approve the whole thing or not but simply um the two designs that are on this P this is the design that you're proposing yes sir the back one this is in your packet the design that we had talked about in at the in the re Review Committee is this one is this one that tries to rationalize the the doors the steps and this this wall the applicant I I don't agree with the vote but we can go around the room and see um what the members of the commission view about the the parking side if you have a question by all means bring that up but the the first question is this doorway um this stair so um John you want to make a comment sure so I think that the the proposed redesign is is preferable and I think that it speaks more clearly to the idea that there's not a front entrance to a place where there's not a door but there's one other thing that I do want to mention and that is in your prior submission and forgive us but we missed it you have cable railings on the back porches if I could just interrup you want me to wait on that well this this is the one you're proposing tonight he's proposing that and that's the one that's the one we proposed previously it's the one we prefer it's preferred on the back last three pages are an one the last three pages that's this one the alternative that shows the what are you presenting both I mean we prefer the first one the first one but we took into serious consideration your time and effort to to meet in subcommittee so we want to be respectful right so all I'm saying is I find that the proposed alternate scheme far preferable for all the reasons we've already talked about including at the last meeting but there's one other comment I need to make and that is in the conceptual approval there were railings on the two back porches and the back stairs that are cable railings and that would not be consistent with our standards as stated on on both page um 59 and 32 where says porches on non-contributing properties should reflect the predominant porch type scale design and materials be consistent with historic materials of the historic district and re reinforce the architectural character so I would strongly propose that I would not be able to approve this with the cable railings but if you had the ballister railings that would match what you're depicting on both schemes for the front porch I would be fine with everything else did you follow that yeah you don't like the you don't want the cable rail it's not that I like them or don't like them it's not consistent with it's not consistent with our standards yes do a a simple ballister rail system in the back as well yep but you still prefer the alternative stair at the front that you spoke about if we were taking the uh straw vote that you were requesting I would vote for the alternate you vote for the alternate yes Janice I would also vote for the alternative right next well I I actually prefer the the new one as well because the uh the lines of the railings going up kind of allude to the fact that there's a central entrance there where the other one when the um when the railings were going the opposite direction it took away from the center of the facade all right so it gives it kind of an illusion of it there is an entrance there you can't say I prefer the new one is as well because it makes sense um because you go up and you enter a door and you go up and you enter a door and the window is in between it to me it just makes sense Kevin I agree version seems like six to nothing so far thank you well and you know my you know my position he's made that clear all right thank you very much for your time I I struggled with that alternative frankly we're just going to agree to disagree but we're going to follow your your guidance in that matter thank you very much okay and hopefully we'll be back to see you within two months when we get the plot plan approved we have enough room to build everything so yeah because you're still need planning board planning board approval right yes Kathy you met and talked about samples and material met with the three gentlemen and I would like this is the name of this product is Everlast I believe Everlast yes when we were here initially this will be s in the sample was 5 in and this is the we indicated we wanted to use a a heavier vinyl product that not the flimsy vinyl stuff that you see on cheap buildings as you can see this is a much more substantial product so my only comment about this is generally speaking when a substitute material is presented particularly whether it's it's vinyl or some sort of plastic generally speaking we are um not approving those materials that have a stamped wood grain in them as opposed to a smooth finish okay Kathy does that come in a smooth finish I will have to ask yeah I believe it does a smooth finish is what is what replicates would replic in this instance Cedar and you know these manufacturers they put a grain in it to make it interesting but then it becomes contemporary and and not what we're looking for the seven inch would be yeah I have this roate this is a c often seen throughout yeah nice shadow product excent I wasn't aware if there were any other uh materials that um the commission was concerned about I knew Cathy's given a submission of Y fix so are there any other items that the commission hasn't concern about or needs us to reconsider not that I'm aware of are there any other comments so tonight you're looking for conceptual approval and Direction so we understand that we we can only approve one yeah so um I I John would you want to make a motion on sure on I would move for conception approval of this project as presented with the alternate alternative front stair scheme with two additional um implications one is that the cable railing not be part of the project but rather be wood balls to match that of the front porch and second that the siding not have a imitation wood grain in it but be smooth siding thank you I'll second that just to be clear for the record the the original design that the applicant was proposing was for page four of seven the amended design that is the subject of this motion is at the end of the packet and it's noted as 4A of seven is that correct Mr Chadwick I believe it is 4 a yes yep okay so as soon as we get the plot plan approved by um zoning you know planning board we will be back we got to take a we got to vote on the motion first vote no problem motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr copelan Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammeron yes thank you I I should mention but I think it is clear I changed the applic from final to conceptual yes yes thank yes thank you one simple question um now that we've gotten this far and we're just essentially waiting for planning board do we need another formal meeting for final approval or can that be done by committee assuming everything is consistent with what we've talked about um no you're still going to have to come back because we want a resolution um um it it um unless unless there's some significant change because of planning um it should be pretty painless and we can make sure you're first on the agenda assuming that you're going to come back and say we haven't changed anything we just have the resolution now just to understand when the planning board approves do we have to wait another 30 days before we can come to you so we're we're out 60 at least okay okay we are trying to get this home started I understand you know because the right time of the weather you know yes U pretend I'm stupid maybe I am once the board grants their approval why do we have to wait another 30 days has to go to because we're going to have a meeting we're going to vote whether there's changes or no changes and then there'll be a resolution we can't get a resolution without having a meeting no the planning board but but we have to wait for the planning board for it to go into resolution with the planning board or once they approve I am on the October 12th conceptual approval so you can go to planning and if they approve it on October 12th can I come back to you in October or do I have to wait no our meeting in October is when Judy yeah yeah so okay I think what he was saying is when you when you come back here for final you're not going to get a resolution that night you'll get final approval and then the resolution will be the this board will be the F meeting so you if you get approval at the planning board the planning board secretary will issue before they issue a a resolution at the next meeting they'll do a notice of decision so there'll be at least a notice of decision on the board whether it was granted or whatever okay as long as we have that we're good to hear it here for final thank you I just needed to understand the policy and procedure now I understand thank you thank you very much for your time one last comment I also wanted to thank you because the uh we didn't mention that you added the two columns to the uh very long Span in front of the garages as we had requested so thank you for that okay just got to be careful making that right hand turn careful driving yeah no I in fact I did mention that theyve embraced they embraced the ideas that we had shared with it we did and it hey and I think cosmetically it approves my my family goes back to 1844 and I hope it will go for another 100 years at least thank you thank you thank you next order of business is Waxman 931 cor block 1093 lot 11 this a contributing property they want to replace place the shed fence exterior shower door exterior shower doors concrete and trim repair hello Hi how are you we need your name and relationship to the property please uh Gary Waxman owner co-owner Miriam Waxman owner speak into the mic please Miriam Waxman owner thank you so take it away well we have we'll go with the easier ones uh we have chain link fence around the perimeter on three side both sides in the rear there's a little bit at the edge of the driveway it's just very cold and Industrial looking reminds me of my uh neighborhood that I grew up in in the 60s uh we would like to have them the ones on our property removed and repl place with wood wood fence um our neighbors uh the fences on the sides of our house are actually owned by our neighbors both have agreed to remove the fences if we are putting in Wood fences um the one in the rear of the property we're unsure of we think it's our fence our neighbor behind us thinks it's her fence so we'll we'll figure that one out um we uh we have concrete Paving uh throughout the property in the particularly in the rear it's cracking sinking in certain areas it's actually creating uh not just a visual Hazard but a real Hazard so we need to replace it our goal is to replace it with pavers and uh beautify the property um we have we want to install a storm door on the side of our house uh which we intend to replace with a wood wood frame door pardon me the three three we're getting the front as well front front door as well and the deck the deck the deck there is a a broken storm door which is a wood frame which we're going to try to fix if we can't we're going to replace it um um we also have an exterior shower which uh admittedly we weren't aware we needed to do anything other than build it so it's about 3/4 finished it's all wood it's connect it's not connected to the house but it's AB budding the the rear corner um and we also had a rotting wooden shed in the rear of the property that our understanding will was it was a more modern shed it was not part of the contributing history of the of the property it was uh had black mold in it it was built the built the frame was built with nominal 2x4s on top of a concrete pad all of which seemed to be more modern era we ripped down that shed and we started to replace it with a Allwood shed handbuilt on the premises on exactly the same foot could I just interrupt you for a second you may this is the shed that you're talking about correct uh tearing down as a point of order um on the one hand it's clear that this is not contributing on the other hand we do have to go through the nine points which you can answer okay in this instance I believe yes or no um you in this case it would be seven all right the first got two knocked off already the first seven of the nine these are the seven criteria by which demolition is pred so you if you would read the the point the first the seven points but one at a time okay read into the record and then you can respond and you don't it doesn't require a lengthly response I'm going to have him doing I'm having my batteries just died in my hearing age they literally just died I'm having a hard time hearing you so you only need to hear from one of us correct yeah you okay all right so Point number one uh its historic architectural cultural and aesthetic significance do you want me to answer yes that shed I believe it is none of those things Point number two its current and potential use for those purposes currently permitted by this chapter or for the use proposed uh I plead somewhat ignorance to what is currently permitted but we were putting up a shed of identical size shape and on the exact footprint all wood and shingles Point number two yes or no it's Cur for those purposes currently pred by chapter for the use proposed I guess it's yes I I'm not clear on that um its importance to the municipality and the extent to which its historical or architectural value is such that its removal would be detrimental to the Integrity of the historic property or district and the public interest um would be D no the number four the extent to which it is of such old unusual or uncommon design craftsmanship texture or material that could not be reproduced or could be reproduced only with great difficulty no the extent to which its retention would increase property values promote business create new positions attract tourists students writers historians artists and Artisans attract new residents en carage study and interest in American history stimulate interest and study in architecture and design educate citizens in American culture and Heritage or make the municipality a more attractive and desirable place in which to live no the impact of its removal upon the historic district none no the structural soundness and integrity of the building and the economic Fe feasibility of restoring or rehabilitating the structure so as to comply with the requirements of the applicable building codes I'll say no again I'm not clear on that that point um next point so I do need to rate you're saying number eight that was number seven that was seven yeah that was seven yeah do I have a motion to um accept the demolition of this shed so moved do I have a second I'll second that thank you okay motion by Mr Becker seconded by Miss Wilson stck to this page Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes m agno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hammerin yes thank you okay the proposal to to build a new shed which is already in progress you're you're showing a picture of a shed that looks like what you would buy from a company are you intending to stick build a shed here that looks like this well yeah yes it looks like that representation is is a little distorted in that picture it it is the exact same size as the prior shed it was a kit that's been customized and was built on premise um including reinforced flooring uh but it's in the exact same foot footprint and has almost the exact same Peak it will be hand it will be painted it did not come you know prepainted um any questions by the commission on what is being built only two in your materials list it says that all of the materials of exterior materials of the shed will be wood is that that correct correct and the depiction appears to be vertical t111 siding which is a a rough son plywood material so given that that's not a kit building that you're purchasing would you consider horizontal siding as opposed to that vertical t111 which would therefore more closely be compatible with the existing house actually that's just what I was going to say it generally speaking the shed should emulate the the primary structure on the property so therefore you look for the same kind of um design and material use as the as the main structure I believe the design is vertical not horizontal if that's what you're asking it's up and down uh the panels uh the as as were the old panels on the prior shed so is it t111 sighting it's a it's a roughson plywood that's what the that's what this picture I'm going to plead ignorance but my guess is you probably know more than I do about it so it probably is but it will be painted the same paint as the siding in the house would you consider putting siding horizontal siding on the shed to more closely match the house uh we would prefer not only because we' spent a great deal of money having it 80% constructed quite honestly it's it's almost constructed at this point um it's also in the rear NE well see it's next to a a non-contributing building this yeah you you have a contributing property correct and the fact that it's almost built or somewhat built um is immaterial the question is um with Texture 111 it could it could act the same as sheathing and then on top of that you can put um horizontal Clapper sighting which would match the house got you're saying so basically put another layer over the existing layer yeah we will consider anything well it's not consider it's agreeing okay um if if that's what you're asking you said I think yeah I think the initially you asking if it was considered if you're telling us that's what we need to do then we will do what we need to do okay yeah um other questions by this commit on the shed or on the on the shed no on the whole project okay I did I had a couple questions on this these pictures here on this page it says that you to have wooden doors and screen doors and at list three locations then it says same as existing wooden screen door but in these photos I don't see any screen doors on these photos I mean they're wooden wooden entrance doors so I mean we need some some explanation as what these wooden screen doors are going to look like did did we not have did we not have pictures of them in the package of what we were intending to buy there is a picture in here um I mean it's basically a full view wooden screen just a wooden frame door you need to have a catalog cut of that to show what particular model we had yeah I thought I oh well I don't have this is if you look at this page here this is the one that's existing on the deck we're going to three doors we would like the same wooden style and that's actually a door sorry L it blew off in a storm it's laying on its side but yeah but I I just don't think there's enough detail in there to make sure because you're right in the heart of historic district there right okay I don't know whether this is a modern looking door or appropriate or Not by this photo okay so what what do you need what we need is if you you go to where you're going to buy the door from and give us they call a catalog cut so we'll show what it will look like all the materials explain it in detail okay and we'll see if it's appropriate uh one other thing too was regarding you mentioned pavers um again you're in the heart of of the historic district we need some specificity as to what these pavers are going to look like they shouldn't be a modern product right you know preferably red brick or something at least looks like red brick so we need um again something from the manufacturer that shows what you're going to put there okay yeah I mean look we we love we love the city we understand the significance of the district we're not intending to um you know and we spent three years rehabbing the house keeping it in compliance you know if you pull down the drywall the hanun you know joyer still all all there and uh you know we have no intention to modernize if you will but we have people to come in front of us and they want to put modern composite pavers in and that would be inappropriate so please give us we get it something that would show exactly what you're going to put in well well just to clarify I don't I don't see anywhere in the application where you're proposing new pavers it looks like you're just repairing the existing concrete is that correct did we did we submit anything with pavers specifically or did we just we just want to repair the concrete we just want to repair the concrete but we want to um do pavers also so would the pavers be on top of the repaired concrete we're just trying to understand I I no I think the concrete has the P would be in the same so I guess that's what I'm trying to understand is I don't see anywhere in the application you guys saying you're going to be using pavers so maybe I missed it I I think maybe we missed it we we we're repair we were in all likelihood the way it looks okay when we repair the concrete it has to be removed it can't be packed oh so you'll be removing it so if we're going to remove it our goal would be we we do not like concrete got trust me we want to put papers we want it to fit in with the district if it if we have to submit do we have to submit this under a separate application Mr Waxman just clear for the record this last photo that you guys submitted here yeah that's the cement their concrete that is damaged and that you want to take out right yeah and are you are you saying to the board that you you were proposing to do pavers here or what's the proposal there I think that's what they're asking yeah well this we want to do papers oh the the walk walk yes yes we want to replace all those walking those those sidewalks behind the fence but not the driveway right the driveway for now because of the the cost because it's a very large driveway we we're not looking to repair that or replace that now in this phase in other words anywhere beyond the new fence that you're proposing this is going to be you're proposing to take this out and then put a new paer Surface to be approved by the HPC in that location is that where you're proposing yes okay and that that's what they are looking for a cut sheet for to say understood thank you okay other other questions um from the commission I'm assuming you're seeking conceptual approval is that correct I'm sorry are we seeking conceptual approval well conceptual versus final well we would like I guess we would like well I I'm not you know I'm kind of ignorant of this so forgive me this is uh it's a moot it's a moot question we can move to conceptual you're not ready for final we don't have the materal material that we need so if you go to final we're going to vote it'll be no and I I would suggest you go with conceptual okay so you need to approve the final material that we're intending to put on top of the shed is for one is that correct yes and and the pavers and the screen doors so I would move to approve this submission conceptually with three um clarifications one is submission of the siding for the shed to match the siding of the house two the location of and the type of pavers that you're proposing to use to replace the damaged concrete and three cut sheets of the wood doors that you're also proposing to install okay and the exterior shower you're repairing that is that correct no we're actually constructing it it's just the enclosure it's just a shower enclosure yeah it's just you know um three three three Wood Walls if you will Mr just to rinse off Mr Becker and Mr chair can I make an alternative suggestion oh yes please um we've we've gotten uh I think into a little bit of a habit with the the conceptual approvals lately because we do issue a document associated with that I will just share my perspective with the board that the conceptual review and then final is typically a good exercise when a board has to go on to the zoning or planning board because then they'll get a document to say hey the HBC reviewed it and they had a few comments but they're going to come back for final but on these types of applications were are you going to the zoning or planning board have you speak spoken to the um zoning officer I'm a bit confused about that I I had we did the permit for the uh and just um how did you end up coming to the HPC did you talk to the construction officer zoning officer and they said hey you have to go to the HPC y did they indicate to you that I'm not saying you do or you don't I I just I don't know and that's why I asked the question because it may affect how we handle it do you know whether you have to go to the zoning board for any reason on this for the shed for the shower for for the shed or the shower if it's demoed just the location of it you don't know and I I apologize I I we may have to go go to the I don't know it's 5 feet and one inch from the from the property line we our understanding is it's it's it's okay but I'm not making that determination from the table I'm just asking the question because it like I said if if applications have to go to one of those boards it's helpful for this board to review provide a document to them say hey we reviewed it this is what we think I we I believe that's the case I I believe that the zoning board will want to see HPC approval for the shed and the shower that's my understanding okay okay so that you do eventually you'll have to present these additions to yeah because I think they really sent us here I believe that someone from construction was the Construction office sent us to HBC said we need we need to get approval here first okay does that make sense it yeah is work being done Beyond beyond the the shed you mean in addition or no no we we we work was being done and we stopped it someone showed up someone from the Construction office showed up I don't know maybe two months ago we stopped immediately we haven't done anything it it seems to me that they've gotten a lot of feedback seems to me they're going to have to come back here with a the plan for the shower we need to knowe we need the plan for the the pavers we need the documentation for the material so it just seems like even voting for this they're better off coming back whether it's whether it's tabling or a conceptual you're better off getting a more complete conceptual if that's the case and and I'll I'll just preview that with one of the things we can do is instead of the board considering because we have to act within a certain time period too and if we were to act soon you probably wouldn't like the outcome but one one of the things the applicant can do is they can agree to an extension of time which will give you the opport time to go back and address some of these comments and then come back to the board whether it's conceptual or final and then we can review you know the cut sheets and the and those materials so what one of our concerns is that Time Marches On and all the stuff is sitting outside of our property there's nowhere to store things we kind of temporarily tucked it in the shed as best we could we really need to get the shed done so if do we need to break up this application because I don't know that from a Time perspective we can get all of the like in other words does this does this whole application have to be approved in its entirety it's either all or nothing because uh I'm concerned about getting you know the the pavers and and getting all that you know I need a I need a design I need materials I I don't know if that's going to happen as quickly as I like before winter sets in you don't have to get the material we need to have a cut sheet on what you're going to order is that all you need or you don't need to see a design at this point we need to see where you're going to put the pavers for example okay but but you don't need to see a a rendering from like a uh a landscape architect they need to know and that's why I was asking those questions about what are you you doing this and not that they need to know what they're approving but then once we have that kind of understanding okay you're going to do it behind the fence but not the driveway and then this is the material we're going to use for that location as long as we can describe it and understand what we're talking about that's fine we don't need an architect's plan necessarily okay for that type of thing um but going back to what I was saying is we meet every month they have review meetings every other Tuesday oh every Tuesday every Tuesday except the Tuesday after the Monday night meeting so no not tomorrow but every other Tuesday come back and you know show them show that Review Committee the materials and then eventually it can find its way back to the board the next monthly meeting my point is you can ask for an extension which will avoid the board making an unfavorable decision um and then you can come back um when you're ready to present and it's up to you guys it's not you know you you know when we meet you know when the Review Committee meets you can take the time and take these comments and come back with a more um maybe complete picture for the board to consider Chris act on if I can just add something U for the waxman's once you get a resolution of approval for all this work you have time to complete it I think it's two years right yes the resolutions are good for two years so if it's approved let's say in October you get it in November you have two years from November to finish all this work before you have to come back and then you can ask for an extension to the resolution so you don't have to eliminate any of the work okay thank you and also Mr Waxman that if if you have if you do have to go to the zoning board you're not going to be held up by this board because that board takes longer to act than we do we don't have we don't have 200 foot notice like that if you want to get put on an agenda you reach out to Judy and as long as it complies with the open public meetings we can get you on an agenda so it's a little bit quicker to come to this board nothing against the zoning board but it's just it's a little bit easier to navigate this process than it is that one I won't tell them you said that that's okay these are on YouTube so they can they'll be able to find out do you want to do you want to request an extension so that you can go back to the drawing board so to speak with some of these comments and come back to the board yeah could you just explain what that extension means in terms of actual timeline well it it's it's really up to if you want to try and uh incorporate those comments I would say you could you could do a 60-day extension it's really it's to give yourselves time to retool the application a little bit sounds like we need it then you ex excuse me if I may also add you may be um you may be confusing the zoning officer downstairs in construction with the zoning board so you'll want to talk to Bruce Brittain who I think you may have talked to before about your plan Bruce will advise you if you if you need relief from the zoning board for any of your setbacks or anything like that it's a common sort of misconception there's the zoning officer and the zoning board so you might want to call Bruce Britain tomorrow and and come in and confirm with him whether you need to go to the zoning board thank you so Mr Waxman this is you requesting a 60-day extension if you want to come back earlier it doesn't mean it's going to take 60 days so if you do this in 10 days and you get those back to Judy you can request to be put on an agenda does that make sense yes okay thank you yep you just you can just sign there also Mr wack if if you have the manufacturers product data for the three things we talked about I would invite you to come and meet with us next Tuesday morning or any Tuesday morning here and present those to us and that way it could expedite the process for you all you need to do is call Judy and tell her that you'd like to make an appointment with us for a Tuesday HPC review meeting thank you all done Mr wax if you could just pass that back I'll give that yeah yeah we're we're done thank you all right we still have homework to do thanks thank you thank you yes all right thank you okay all right the table um um or accept the uh extension we have a motion from Mr Becker to approve that motion okay thank you so we need a motion to um agree to the extension I would move to table this project as requested by the owner I'll I'll second motion by Mr Becker uh excuse me Mr Becker seconded by Mr copelan Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson Str yes Mr Hammer thank you thank you next order of business is Gallagher 257 Grant Street block 1023 lot 20 this a contributing property and we're going to discuss windows and siding do I have to wait should I wait yes Mr Becker okay yeah he'll be back excuse me Pam while we wait did you ever send me a PDF of this plan I have a note that I didn't get the PDF I don't remember if you sent it to me or not did you email me for a PDF I think so on the 5th we'll just check I'll I'll check in tomorrow okay thank you I can get that to you tonight though if that helps you Pam you can introduce yourself okay um um we just have to wait for the presentation for John to come of course Pamela fine from fine architecture I'm here tonight on behalf of my clients Bill and Sandy Gallagher Unfortunately they are out of town and asked me to represent them um and we will be discussing some renovations to 257 Grant Street um and I'll just wait a moment are you comfortable with this CH yeah just for the record um Judy and I have implemented a while we're waiting here I'll just fill the board and we we've implemented a procedure where we don't have to go through this song and dance about do you have Authority or not the the applicants are advised via email before they come into the board um to if they can't be present to notify Judy and indicate if somebody's going to be appearing in their stad that they have the authority to present and we have that in writing from the applicant now just not the Prof and we trust the professionals when they come in here um but we want to hear it from the applicant and we have that in the form of writing via email before these applications and they're advised that if they don't respond that they may not be heard so that frees up Miss fine to do her presentation you received that yeah did perfect just for the record we we won't proceed I would recommend we not proceed with an application unless we get that Assurance via email it's designed to be easy not some Hall of Mirrors about how you get a just send send Judy an email saying we can't be there and this person is my designated representative which they did in this case so perfect okay I will begin um so we're proposing I would call it a a small renovation to 257 Grant Street uh we're not proposing any additions or anything like that um it's fairly minor uh just consisting of new window replacements um and new wood siding so the existing home if you look at the photos um it's covered in asbestos uh we had the contractor come out and peel away some of the Asbestos and underneath was revealed some wood clapboard so we're proposing all new wood clapboard uh we'll do new new wood corner boards about 4 in wide and uh we'll continue that all the way around the existing home uh towards the back of the home there is an existing sun room right now the sun room doesn't really function that well as a sun room um the house needs a laundry room so we're proposing turning that sun sun room into their laundry room um and in doing that obviously we don't need all the windows so the the other part of that process is the windows uh we're removing some of the windows in that sun room just to make it a more functional laundry room um and in the old tiny laundry room will now uh be their Pantry right off of the kitchen um and then couple other things for the windows if you look on the uh P2 sheet you'll see along the right side in the renovated dining room we have two new proposed windows that will be alongside of an exist window so it'll be a three Bank of window um along that side and then we're removing some in the sunro uh those windows will be Colby Windows uh double hung Allwood non-cl pre-primed um and those will be in the same style as what you find in the existing uh front of the home which are six over ones um let me see if there's anything else uh is it 9 over ones yes well that's what you're showing oh okay I just counted wrong when I typed it up yes so it's nine over ones yes so that's what we're proposing throughout the home everything should match with those and let's see and then in the back we will have that laundry room going in um there's going to be some some new wall spaces where the windows were removed we're going to fill that in with wood uh clapboard and then underneath of the window sills I'm going to do a wood panel uh which replicates what was there with the sun room and then we're keeping there's um some intricate corner molding um on that back sun room which I believe were the old columns so we're going to keep those um you know pay homage to the sun room that was what is the I'm sorry are you through no yes I'm done sorry what what is the uh exposure or the or the reveal on the clappers um gosh um I don't think we measured it but we can definitely find that out if it's like a four or five I don't think it was anything larger than that they were fairly small uh reveals you're going to okay so you'll match existing we'll match existing yes the way we'll read it and if it's in good enough shape we might even be able to just fix it you probably will find that there's quite a bit that you can use yeah yeah I'm hoping that with the asbest on there it basically you know just enclosed and protected and hopefully when we remove that if there's something worth saving then we will certainly save it I know they were battling with you know do we just keep the asbest and you know save money or can we do we have enough to do the W clapboard so if we find that we can save wood clapboard I'm sure that would make them very happy and I'm sorry that there is definitely wood clap bir on thebest you just don't know what the reveal is right they we peeled it back there he got a picture um but he didn't put a tape measure on it so it wasn't anything larger than I would say like a 5 in exposure we're we're good if we're if if we're going to match existing match existing yes um thank you do any other questions from the commission y just regarding the windows there a little more specificity as to what model and does say Colby orwood yeah um it it's on the cut sheet uh Heritage series um double hung Sterling double hung operating um let's see double pain glass um there's it's the crosssection um if there's a better catalog cut sheet um I can find that mon on the outside of the glass yes yes for sure yes other questions from the commission yes so one of the things that has come to light as I've been observing window replacement ments in town recently is there have been times when Windows have been removed from an existing home that's contributing and the replacement windows are not exactly the same size nor is the trim the same size so what ends up happening is there's a space between the new trim and the edge of the existing siding from where the trim was removed you know exactly what I'm talking I know what you're talking about yes so I just want to be sure that that's not happening here right I believe these are all going to be custom ordered uh fit to the existing window opening sizes okay the only other thing that um also has emerged at with window replacements is the whole Grill work being simulated divided lights okay so there's three or four different versions of simulated divided lights in fact I just today found the new guide to window girls from gelwin you're using gelwin correct Colby oh you're using Colby yes so this is good this is why I'm bringing this up kby has a whole bunch of different simulated divided lights some are three times the size of what they should be some are half the width that they should be so I think we do need to see documentation of exactly which simulated divided lights you're proposing so that when our com compliance officer goes out into the field he or she can match exactly what you're proposing with what's installed do you have a preference yes it would be as close as possible to what the existing house has okay so not really it's not a standard per se it's matching what's there so for example some of the simulated divided lights have almost no profile others have an extended profile so try and match as close as you can okay whatever the mo the moon material and size is currently okay so the width of the moleon but also the projection exactly okay right just on that point would would we want as a condition to have a a photo of an existing example combined with a cut sheet that matches that's exactly what I would like to request okay thank you other questions do I have a motion sure I would move to um this is this is final right yes I would move to approve this application with still needing clarification on the exact window cut sheets for the divided lights and photographs of the existing conditions so that we can determine that what's being proposed is as close as possible to matching existing make sense I love it yes great and siding oh and that the and the siding is going to match as close as possible the underlying sighting that was discovered when the asbest was removed perfect okay I'll second that is that going to go to the Review Committee John John oh I'm sorry will this go to the Review Committee for review yes thank you so this this this final approval is inent upon you submitting those to the uh Review Committee on Tuesday Morning understood great motion by Mr Becker seconded by Miss Wilson strick Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Miss bagno yes may I make a comment this is my former husband's house and I am so happy to see everything that is being done they definitely needed a laundry room and the new Pantry it's fabulous fabulous so thank small world Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammerin yes thank you thank you thank you next order of business o Conor 1226 Lafayette Street block 1129 Lot 10 this a non-contributing building and we're going to talk about an addition for porch we're doing some windows a driveway and siding hello everyone hello you um you have to turn that mic on please oops for the record you are sure good evening everyone my name is Paul Faron architect with fulam design group I'm here with the owners of 1226 lafa Ed Street Mr uh Brian and Miss Victoria OK Conor um the uh intent here today is to obtain a conceptual approval um the proposed work does require variance relief so we know that we need to go to the zoning board after this meeting um try to keep it short and sweet um the proposed work is really additions and alterations to the existing uh one-story rectangular plan gable roof dwelling uh at the subject property that's 1226 lafed street block 1129 Lot 10 uh kind of the south side of Lafayette as you're entering town or or leaving town um the the idea on the outside is really to redefine the exterior of the house but specifically the front of the house um presently the what could be considered the side of the house is facing lafa Ed street so the intent is to kind of reframe the house such that it's contributing more to the streetscape um the first floor work is really interior alterations to remove a bedroom room and expand living and dining space while the second floor work is to create additional bedrooms um as far as materials go it is non-contributing so materials will largely be synthetic uh we're proposing Hardy plank lap siding with a 5in exposure accompanied by PVC ASAC what have you trim components uh Anderson 400 series windows and uh aqualine permeable pavers is what we propose for uh the driveway work a lot of a lot of the work will all of the work will really uh change the look of the exterior uh from the materiality standpoint right now there is aestus although I can't say we tested it but you know this cementitious fiber shingle siding um so the idea is to replace that with a more historic look lap siding horizontal lap siding uh we are removing cast iron uh columns or Corner supports over the existing side porch and the intent is to um really just put Square uh colums to support that side entryway as well as the twostory front porch that's probably the most uh I guess the largest change is really to the front of the house will be that two-story front porch with a traditional um ballister type railing assembly um I think in a nutshell that's everything um so we' be happy to field any questions that you might have again we are here for conceptual I do know that my partner met with the Review Committee at least once before this to discuss the project so hopefully we're tracking to uh get our get our conceptual zoning approval and then come back for final okay this just one question on this this bump out here yes is is to accommodate uh new Second Story bedroom space because it it's interesting because it looks like the old fashion um like the bath bath it does have that kind of effect okay uh we'll open it up we'll go around the room get some feedback uh thank you this this this house um does need some some work we appreciate your efforts so thank you Kevin you want to start I think what you're doing is a wonderful thing however somehow I don't know how we have to ask John I I'd like to see it softened a bit um you know uh maybe the windows change the the three panel Windows the picture windows I don't know shutter something that to just soften it a little bit the the front you're talking about uh excuse me are you talking mainly about the front of the house I can't hear you the front the front well the front and maybe the windows in the front and the windows on the side Mr chairman um I don't know it just it almost has a cookie cutter appearance I think I could be wrong but I thought maybe it should be softened I I appreciate the comment I just wanted to jump in and respond to that um again We There will we will be refining the design through the you know through these next phases Beyond this before we come back for a final um before or I'm sorry since we've been to the Review Committee I think we included um the addition of like Bermuda Bahama type style uh shutters at least on the side something um that may not be represented on the exterior view um in any case the idea is to make sure that we tie all those things together but if that wasn't clear um I did want to bring that to your attention also that that is a component of the project thank you we said the same thing we we had been already talking about it absolutely thank you I I just want to clarify um the existing shed that's on the property that's not being altered or no ma'am not at this time in the future possibly okay that's all it needs replacement uh don't know our future proposal will be in kind or if we I just wanted to clarify that thank you thank you I just want to say when I drive past that place it's truly an eyesore right now so I mean this is a great Improvement and I think I agree with B that maybe that the picture window in the front needs some more Mion or something in there to soften it John this is a great Improvement thank you and I really appreciate what you what attempting to do here I only have one question sure um the decking material that you called out you said new polyurea deck what is that polya um it's like a polymer type um material that is similar to like fiberglass it's like something that's being used in L of fiberglass right now no no no no like it's a solid it's basically two layers of like plywood like you'll put like a a 3/4 plywood down then you'll put a more finished grade um maybe like 38 half inch on top of that and it's just it's then they roll on basically like a uh a polymer coating it's a coating oh so it won't look like a a wood deck it'll look more like a conrete single material finish the second floor deck yes what about the first floor the first floor the intent I believe is tracks okay I would strongly suggest that the material um at least replicate what would appear to be a wood decking okay at least that which you can see because that's going to change the detail quite a bit at the edge of those boards to the what the what the fascia looks like underneath the railing and I think that's the look you're seeking so that would just be something that I would volunteer to consider okay yeah would that be consistent with what you're looking for we um I I think we haven't had sufficient discussion about that in my mind I'd like to do mogy and just or dip the hardwood but even better construction costs I think we're trying to find out where we are so I I think all I'm trying to do is is steer you if possible away from a monolithic material that looks more like I agree they don't last than they are eyesore yeah and it's not that much of an eyesore I put the flower boxes in I I understand where you're coming from I'm just joking around otherwise nice work thank you one of the things we could do with the conceptual to is that that condition could be steer away from a monolithic material then you all can kind of work on what that might be and then come back for final and make a proposal right yeah absolutely I think that's exactly what we'll do yeah I agree with the observations and comments of the group and I appreciate the the effort to improve this property so thank you thank you do I have a motion I'll make the motion that we approve the um project as presented um um with the exception of the um the idea is to further develop the presentation for softening by the certainly by the plantation shutters and the and the the wood decking on the first and second floor Tex do I have a second second and that's for conceptual right Warren correct yes conceptual thank you motion by Mr copelan seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammerin yes thank you thank you thank you thank you everybody have a good night good luck thank you thank you next order of business is Hoff this is 106 Washington Street block 1110 lot two this is a contributing property and the question they weren to no requested they they requested to be continued an extenstion yes sorry we should have mentioned that in the beginning okay um the meeting is open to the public um there's no public present but by phone you can contact or you can't no no public um we're going to have some discussion points um the uh HBC Awards and um pip you are going to present something be could I impose on you though pip by all means come up but we also o have a window presentation and and the window piece is going to be really quick if you don't mind we'll do that window thing first oh okay that's good no no have a have a seat so you're in on it well I thought we were going to present it as a project to take a look oh yes so Warren has asked me if I would do a little research project about as manufacturers continue to evolve the windows that were approving um we've seen some changes as was referenced earlier this evening in particularly the simulated divided lights are are all over the place right now um ranging from you know three Ines wide to a half or less than a half inch wide and they some of them just are not appropriate so what Warren's asked me to do is do a little bit of research about the windows that we would um easily approve from various manufacturers as a sort of a guide that will help us make decisions when folks are presenting Windows yeah one of the things that has happened here is um which is the same thing actually that happened just a few years ago over time the manufacturers change specifications but they hold the the title The same so um one time you know we'll have a wood window and then over time it'll change into the same number but it'll be clad which which we wouldn't approve on a contributing building and so I looked at a window that we approved recently Kevin looked at the window I think John looked at the window did too we all agreed unanimously that the window was good and to be done on a contributing building Warren can you please move your mic closer when we actually looked at the window and and it was approved so we don't want to talk about addresses but when we actually looked at the window it it's been changed and it is no longer I don't believe I don't believe it would be acceptable to our commission to continue to approve that window so it it has a um a very strong uh vertical um line but a very weak horizont horizontal line so it doesn't look like a an authentic window and in the prior period it would I've asked John to go back and take all the major manufacturers that we're aware of and get the specs um so that we can agree as a group which windows in fact we would agree to continue um so couple other very brief Reflections is when we did this a couple years ago this this whole guide to window grills is completely different than it was two years ago from gelwin just as an example of what's changing but I also would like to suggest that what our solicitor Mr Gillan Schwarz suggested tonight be something that we do as a matter of course on contributing houses when they're replacing the windows because it's the third time I've seen this now and I again don't want to talk about any addresses but the old windows were removed new windows were put in new trim put in and there's like a two-inch gap between the edge of the siding and where the new term of the windows is which means the windows either the windows or the siding or both were not the same size as what was original now you have all this sighting that you have to repair around each of the windows and it's a mess so I would like to suggest that we request a photograph of what's existing so that we can match it so um if if you all agree then we'll send John on a mission to come back um soon so with with a presentation for the windows that we can be comfortable approving and we'll probably have to do that every couple years actually so with that pip is here tonight um a brief conversation with me on the phone and um I got the impression that there's going to be sufficient enough change here to preempt you pip um that rather than try to draw a conclusion tonight I think listening to the comprehensive presentation um and then with some written material I think with an opportunity to reflect on it a little bit um and then um bring it back next month for a a further conversation dialogue and recommendation unless I'm mistaken it just sounded pretty comprehensive and and with that pip take it away and so um this is very simple and maybe not to Rocket sciency but um we uh have like a a little group of people who got together to think about um creating a historic preservation award program meaning something that would be instituted that would be take place this year and hopefully all subsequent years as we go forward so we need the um hpc's input on a number of things uh and as far as this goes but I thought tonight what I would do is just talk briefly about what the process is going to be and then uh see if if you have ideas about what's um what some of these ideas that particularly that we need input on that are listed at the top of this little handout and then um since Jim and and Tom aren't here tonight I would would follow up with them and make sure that they have an opportunity to communicate whatever they want to communicate and or to discuss it so essentially for this year what we're proposing is that um is that Judy go through the applications uh the for the full board the the ones that were heard by the full board not the air conditioner compressors and all of that but the ones that were heard by the whole board which she knows what they are and the numbers of those and we would do it for 20 um 22 2023 and 2024 for buildings that were reviewed and got a resolution during that time period um for something fairly fairly substantial and that would be the the bulk if you would say the bulk of the homes that would be considered I bring bring that up because in the past um when we had these historic preservation um Awards which was like 20 years ago when we had them we took nominations from the public but right now we want to start these awards for 2024 uh so we don't have time to like do a whole bunch of stuff with with the public regarding them making nominations although I don't think they would necessarily be excluded but doing it this other way is just a different approach so then all of those applications um that are pulled up would be reviewed the applications would would be reviewed by um two people from the HPC one of whom um will be Janice uh who has been working on this for a while anyway and um she and somebody else from the HPC would look at these individual applications and and um would take out any that are clear clearly not not an award thing and that could be for any number of reasons not necessarily because they were poorly done or anything like that but because they're too little or you know shouldn't exactly get an award and you'll see how that fits with the criteria in a minute and then that that group of of of nominations so to speak I think we call them nominations would then be reviewed by an independent panel of judges and these judges would be people that the HPC can certainly nominate and that would be taken we would take nominations from other people and they would be people that are credentialed as architects in historic preservation um we think somebody should be a previous member of the historic preservation commission but we're thinking that a current member of the historic preservation commission should not function as a judge because I think that gets into like a little bit of um we're trying to make this as apolitical as possible I'm not sure that's possible in Kate may but maybe it is so um anyhow with that um we would then the judges would then um look at these applications um which which would be reviewed with a checklist so they would get the checklist they would get the resolution they would get current pictures of the um of the property and what the review had been and then they using a checklist that we would also develop for them they would go through these applications these nominations and they would make recommendations for what they think should get the award which one should get the first award and which one would get the second award which would be like a um one would one could get like a second award what do we call that I forget honorable mention what honorable mention yeah an honorable men mention yeah so they would get an honorable mention and um and then at some point the city would notify people that they had received were going to receive this award and we would have hopefully in the spring like we're thinking maybe March or maybe April something like that that has to be decided we would have a a big presentation of these which um which we're thinking we would maybe have it at Congress Hall and um because that's such a historic building and it's been it's a wonderful example of what people could do really really well from the Secretary of the Interior standards and I think it sort of illustrates how if you do something to the Secretary of interior standards it might actually increase your profits or make you more marketable as has worked so well at Congress Hall so anyway so wi with that um that's sort of the the basic kind of process of of what would happen and people would then receive their Awards so we what what would be good to have input on tonight is I wrote we took the uh categories for the awards and the the definitions are from the secretary's standards we want this to match up with the with our own standards and these are also definitions that are reflected in our standards and there would be five categories of recognition of which one is a person or a build or a organization and the four that have to do with buildings are preservation or restoration um adaptive reuse new construction and additions and those represent the four you know primary categories of applications that we see and then the fifth one um would be an award to an individual or an organization that has really taken leadership in um in historic preservation and has done outstanding things in in Cape May so I just briefly reviewed how these four building ones would be nominated and how they how we would do it with them we're thinking that that in each year there could be two n two Awards in each category the honorable mention or the the regular award and if there were no Awards there wouldn't have to be any so for example if there was no adaptive reuse or if there was no whatever then we would not make an award in in that year and if there are two that are really good then there would be the award in the honorable mention and if there was only one then there would be only one one award so the number of awards would kind of of change and the award itself for the buildings would be a plaque um which Lorraine has done a lot of work on and um to see what the plaque could look like and where it could go and um and how we would get them made so we have a tenative design for for those um but not yet any pricing full pricing and things like that yet but we're basically thinking about a metal something metal that would be able to be attached to the house that would be weatherproof and all all of that kind of stuff and that people could have um on their house for the preservation leadership Awards we're thinking that that's one that we should really have nominations from not just the HPC and city council but also in the town so we're hoping that that could get posted on the website and in the social media accounts for the city that we would um also do other things like write some articles for the star and wave and The Herald and everything and tell people uh that we would take nominations and we would have a nomination form and the nomination form will basically be I'm nominating so and so I'm nominating a person I'm nominating an organization why you want to nominate them what you're nominating them for the what it is that they've contributed what their impact has been and then invite people to attach any kind of uh additional documentation that they might want to attach like letters of recommendation or they could attach stories you know that have been written about the person or whatever and then um we would pick that person or that organization and there would just be one each year so that would take care of this year but then going forward in next year we would want to keep the same Awards the same definitional Awards and and that but at that point we would maybe look at whether we could solicit nominations from the community once we have these other ones approved so um you can ask whatever questions you want but I did put these uh six things up here at the top um in looking at the award the award condition the award categories would anybody suggest any additional ones or the ones you think would be important um what uh as far as the preservation leadership awards who would you nominate do you have ideas for organizations that have been particularly good or for for people that you think have been particularly significant um we would uh also appreciate um any suggestions people had for um judging what kind of people should be included as judges and um also names of people if you know them that would be good for for judges and um then we're going to do a checklist we didn't do this yet but we're going to do it like a checklist so that the judges each of the judges has this checklist and um they're able to like review review it and make you know write some things about categories I don't I I don't anticipate that many of you are into grants but or things like that but that's basically what happens right you send something in and somebody says how it goes so um so we're going to do that and when we get that checklist done we would certainly want to share it with everybody on the HPC and um you could review it and see if you think there should be other other checklist items that are should be added um and then uh the fifth one is ideas about how judges review uh they could potentially review this information themselves at home um using the information that we would put together about each application that's being nom ated to go forward or they could maybe do part of it on their own review the applications on their own and then maybe come to a meeting um and discuss them and come up with their recommendations and um so whether they should be in person or they could be totally virtual or they have to be part halfway one way or halfway or the other way um any ideas you have about that process would we would appreciate hearing and um um then finally um we we don't have to worry about this immediately but any ideas that people have for what the awards ceremonies should be we were kind of thinking that that we would um put together a PowerPoint that would rotate on a television and it would show examples of like what we knew about each property um if we have that's why we're anxious to get going because it takes a while to put that together but we could put that together and that would play so that when the awards were given that would showcase what the award was and then um the award would would be given so um as I say any ideas or anything that people have um you can email me I can come back potentially at another meeting if that's necessary um but if you ju if you have ideas and you want to share them now or if you have questions please ask um I'm always glad to be last on the meeting because nobody will have any questions um thanks pep um yeah getting some feedback tonight I think is is is good but the we've had these starts on this award program you and I were with a an award program that we had that ceramic plaques that people were were really um personally I didn't care for that plaque so much but people are proud to receive them and and show them they're you can see them around town um and so it's good that we want to do this there's just a lot here and and I would uh ask to impose on you to come back next month so everyone can really give this serious thought um as to the Ws that you're talking about how they're done how we're going to nominate people so rather than just react tonight which is fine but it just seems to me that the there's a lot of thought went into this and there's a lot of material here and I think you would get a a more robust response if if everyone was given a little bit of time to think about it and and reflect yeah can I just add something to I mean pip great presentation um work and Janice's work on this has been wonderful Steve volunteered his time which was you really um gave us a lot of uh a lot of good feedback but I think it's a really good look for the HPC doing something like this I know it was done in a few years ago but even taking it a little bit further and once an award is given that can be put on our website this is the award this is the architect that yeah you know was part of this process this is the Builder that was part of this process we can't very well provide that information to people but we can also say these are good designs these are good Builders these are good Craftsmen so I think that that even furthers what we're looking at doing as well and I'd like to also say you know I I didn't even know you guys were working on it so it's great you've been doing this behind the scenes but remember this is the first thing I've seen since the roll out that's in furtherance of our mission for community outreach and education will work great for both pip I have a question very short I see that at the last one you say within the county are all these categories countywide they're not just no they're no they're just for the city but the definitions okay um the definitions came maybe we should change that yeah that should be changed City yeah we should I thought that the same thing myself oh I wasn't catch I just was curious so it's Citywide thank you okay yeah I have a question um I didn't get a copy of that pip if you can pass one back to me thank you um there was a subcommittee of HBC formed and assigned a couple years ago and I think it was just Janice and Tom right so is this is this a new this is a new subcommittee yes and it has four members right okay I don't I don't have um well the gentleman's name back there no right now the committee is L pip myself and you Judy you're on it surprise okay so it's she knows I'm sorry it's Judy Decker Lorraine Steve Stephen has consulted with us but we're not going to use him up okay free okay so Janice and pip so four of us okay all right just want to and um I think one thing that may not have been obvious in the presentation is that these awards are being given by the City by Council and what one of the goals in this design of the program is to take the the uh benefits and the cache of historic preservation and broaden the stakeholders so it doesn't look like it's it's only you know a small group of people who are on the commission who understand how it works um we want we want people to be enfranchised to think about it themselves to think about you know nominating a project that they like um and it gives us an opportunity to submit public press to the star and wave Etc the heral that describes the positive things about preservation instead of the kind of things we normally see and I also love the idea of raising up The Architects and the contractors who do the right thing and make it prestigious your part about the education touch on that well um I I we talked about you even the environmental commission takes out these ads that tell people what invasive species are you can buy these things in the in the Landscaping places and they talk about them Proven Winners and everything I mean it we're going against a commercial push toward everything new we're trying to preserve [Music] old but do it in a way that's useful that works that people use and that's that's a story that's a narrative and the narrative needs to be out there and the the award that Lorraine designed is is simply a marker but it's it's a nice looking so the person who receives it will feel great about it but it doesn't really tell a story the story is going to be with trying to do an event that people want to go to um and hopefully with the publicity and the website the public education on the website and then even in front of the houses having something well I would love I yeah I'm big on big signs but um in Savannah they have large signs in front of every property that's going to go before the HBC and in Madison they have large signs before um properties that have been given an award and the signs describe why they were given the award so if you've been around uh any communities that do a lot on pollinator Gardens and things like that the environmental movement has made it a point to educate people that untidy Gardens actually have a reason like we have that little pocket Garden on Madison I think that educates people that John Schneider designed so we don't have that type of passer by education we have people taking pictures all the time they love the way it looks this is an opportunity you you know this is a walking Town um make the Street Cape defend itself so that's that's kind of where we are with the rationale behind it and also I think when the when the mayor and Council give an award and they have a budget for it and it's something everybody likes it will survive changes in the HPC changes in the government because it will be something with a lot of good feelings about it and you know everyone on this commission through history has gotten anxious every month when you look at the applications and try to make sure you do a good job and the Review Committee puts tons of time in so it's kind of not too surprising that the award program ebbed and flowed and it would be nice to institutionalize it because it's so much a part of our identity can I can I ask just a quick question so I just thinking about the category an example of adaptive reuse might be the the library you know the public library and an example of the preservation or restoration project might be the Abbey um you know which has turned out you know quite quite beautiful so is the is the award given for something that was where the project was completed in the past year or is it can it go back further completed the the it would be from 202 2 23 and 24 but completed by um we thought October 31st of 2024 okay so so in other words it would not be open say to um let's just use the uh um what blanking now all of a sudden Angel of the sea I think it is the the where they brought a piece of the building from another location and really tied those two just beautifully together that would not that would not be no because that's too long ago and I don't think we can go back that's fine I understand yeah all that far but we have good Restorations um potential good Restorations from 2022 right well I love the idea of having a an annual celebration um where people would come and maybe have a dinner and uh an awards cerem it would be wonderful right and the only other thing I'm thinking is you're spot on I think Lorraine that it could eventually become quite prestigious to have the architect and the Builder and the building team be recognized so maybe that's part of the application eventually when people can nominate themselves is on the application you put that information in so that they're agreeing that it can be published right yeah yeah yeah because I can see this thing in a few years oh yeah did you guys submit your did you get your application in right yeah could be a really cool thing this year what we thought we would do is when when we when the judges have actually said who should get the award then when people contact those owners that they would at that point in time ask the owners to identify these people and uh that's for the first year yeah where it's it's an independent nomination right yeah got y you be back here next month what you'll be back here next month yeah I'll come back next month if I need too yeah well it it seems to me um I would impose on you it seems to me you know you can get some feedback tonight but this is a major change for a significant project that we've all tried and I'm not arguing with you at all so I I think I I think giving everyone a chance to really give this some thought get some information back to you as well as uh giving you a chance then to pull that together that input and then come back and share with us where where we are and perhaps at that point also some other ideas will come up but but really I see it as a more Dynamic process than than hearing it reacting and completing it so i' I'd like it to be more I think you've made your point thank you thank you thanks PB we're done on that yeah thank you pip you're welcome um one other discussion point for tonight briefly um over the last couple years a lot of people have done a lot of work trying to um U modify or have an ident to our National Historic Landmark uh with regards to the African-American contribution to the city of K May um coincidentally pip is here pip did a lot of work um some of us spent a lot of time on this but um you it's it's a tremendous amount of work to get something like this all the way through the process to get it through the state and then to get the state to present it to Congress there was a brief comment at a at a meeting at city council that it had passed the state um but I thought it might be interesting for everyone to have an opportunity not to read but this is the submission from the state to um to go forward there's bunch of blank paper in this stack unfortunately not so I thought um first we should have a copy of it on file so I I'm going to give this to to Judy for the HBC file but I would encourage each of you when you get a chance it's not the type of document you you read but it's is the type of document you should be aware of and recognize that the effort to get something like this just to this point it's not it's not all been done yet but um this it's approved by the state the state approved it the state approved it it's now listed on the state um historic register and it's been forward forwarded to the feds is it like fouryear project so far what how you think it's about three or four years in the making this is this is at least three years making but it it it didn't need to be three years but it was three years um but I mean you know by you remember we have a we had a consultant Nancy Zerby who who did a lot of work a lot of people did a lot of work so um I just thought you might find it interesting this is not something you can just well maybe you all can if you got a jumbo computer but uh getting a chance to just flip through this online would be quite a challenge and of course printing it out so um I have a I have a question I have a couple questions I have the PDF so it's now in the in the uh the hands of the National Trust so about how long does their review process take would you think you have any idea I don't know when they hear it um is it annually is it by anually it's I think it might be quarterly but but just because this one has been forwarded by the state the State signed off on it July 31st so just because that's been forwarded um I don't know when they forwarded it to the feds but just because it's been forwarded doesn't mean you would be in the very next meeting like here right so this is an amendment to the National Historic Landmark status to add the African-American District No it's an amendment to to the National Historic District okay nomination not the landmark and it's to add the African-American it's the recognized the African-American and is it the is it the first one in the country yes it it will be I no it's not the first one well they said that at the New Jersey historic commission here maybe they were wrong when we when we proposed this originally a couple years ago now I remember um seeing a note um from someone at the federal level that scribbled on it that this is an exciting project and one that we should look forward to interestingly enough only a month after that um there was a an online seminar for what it takes to amend a National Historic Landmark until that point no one had amended a National Historic Landmark so they jumped out ahead I guess but anyway there was a I guess my point in asking it is this is a big deal for the city a really big deal I mean our awards are a big deal but this is nationally a really big deal and I would hope the city would really recognize this and promote it and get some PR for it I this the city will the reason I bring it up tonight though is to remind everyone not not a a brief comment to city council but to remind everyone that a lot of people have done a lot of work including the state Andrea tingy has has U done a tremendous amount of work to get this done and I just wanted to share with you all we should have a we should have it on file and I would encourage each of you when you get a chance to take a look at the effort here hopefully and I believe it will be approved um and and I believe we will be the first um uh National Historic Landmark to amend its its Landmark but that remains to be seen we're certainly the first to try it so anyway there actually some really interesting information there that I didn't know at all so read some there's there's a lot of information here yeah yeah it's and this is a real challenge because uh you know there's there's some documentation but unfortunately there's there's not all all the buildings like in Kate may you can put point to all these different buildings and and say well this is it I mean there there's a lot of information that is that is now captured that wasn't captured before but you know it's it's hard to then say well here's the district you can this this is where the minority District was but it's not as clear to look at it physically today as as it was in a prior period And so you you have to take dialogue natural history and living histories and capture it and that's what has happened here at it um I remember it was years ago Andrea Dy and I were in a conversation about about Kate May and the African-American contribution and and it was in that conversation that this came about and then uh Andrea really picked up the ball and and and then a lot of people here in the city including pip and other people really worked hard on this and as I said we had we had grants the Nancy zerby's work was a grant um so there's a lot of people supporting this it doesn't happen you know I think I I feel compelled to also mention that the African-American people contributed to this Andrea came down from the state we asked her to come down and she came down and she met with the African-American people several times several different times and they helped also to provide input in into this um which had really not happened prior to that time the center for Community Arts received an award at the at the state New Jersey historic commission at the same time as our um book did for the book yeah um but they might be a possible preservation leadership awarde you know when you talk about um an organization because this is a huge deal and it it was going on a long time I mean the center for Community Arts started to try to surface the African-American story um in the 90s so it took a long time and and you might remember there the African-American Community was in it was present um in oh Nancy they were they all came in a bus and yeah give give them a word they they take it very well they're not shy no and but you could see the the the the emotion and the pride yeah of the community being recognized and U yeah so anyway enough said it it is important and um Judy will have the file I would encourage you to take a look at it so you all should look at the National Historic Landmark um application which I think is like seven Pages really from Carolyn Pitts and oh my goodness seven pages that might be a little bit more the the district nomination the district nomination is three and this is the amendment this is the amendment you find that original application that word processing is it a typewritten document that you copy or where did you find it what are you talking about seven pages from Cath from from um carollyn pits oh just Google it it's online oh it is oh cool yeah you can get all the this PDF also available online is it is the PDF of this going to be on the website on our website I don't I I don't know this is available online it it it's it's just so it's just so much and dealing with it online I think is a all okay bit of a challenge but pip do can you send us a link for that is it on the Sho website or you probably could find it a lot easier than we could that would be great if you could send us there's a link uh I think she linked it on too I I I have the link I can find it and I also have the PDF great okay that'd be great thank you which has to be divided is into two parts and compressed right but I have that that's why okay okay anything else before this group thank you all thank you thank you we have a visitor from zoning oh oh great I I I didn't want to mention it I didn't want to mention it earlier because you know whatever comes up about zoning he ought to hear that's getting ready for the next season Endless Summer that's the way to get what yeah thanks for coming in I appreciate it we'll see read a all right Chris you good to see you yeah seriously you know everything's takes long than it should I saw you walking down to the Saturday in there for a little bit oh I was I was a volunteer at the dog a good time you know giving dog biscuits anyway I was there and because as you know my wife is on the board right right and so she was there she volunteered me it was nice the dogs are all neighbor we didn't bring ourg I'll catch up with lat I just wanted to find out about that application whether or not with they need to clean up that app a b i can I saw him talking to I know that's why I'm thinking he is yeah okay I'll give monly [Music] right okay I what right right now I thought it was all right I just thought the plan needed to be but there was something about it maybe it was the I mean the architectural concept this one yes yeah yeah because I would it was something maybe it was because it was computer generated I don't know e