##VIDEO ID:gfVaPWTa8mg## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay you don't really have to wait for for this no historic preservation commission October 21st 2024 it's uh just a couple minutes after 6 in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should state so at this time Pledge of Allegiance please IED allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Carol here Mr Stevenson Mr Ste thank you Mr Testa here Miss Wilson stck here Mr hammeron thank you minutes August 12th and September 16th you've had a chance to review those minutes do I have a motion to um accept those minutes I will still move do I have a second second motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hamron yes thank you resolution City of Cape main 643 Washington Street block 1059 lock lot 11 resolution 20 2433 and Gallagher 257 Grand Street block 1023 lot 20 resolution 20 2434 do I have a motion so moved second to the motion motion by Miss Wilson stck seconded by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss Wilson strk yes Mr hammerin yes thank you applications approved or denied and reviewed you've had a chance to look at those do I have a motion to accept them I will make that motion do I have a second second motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hammeron yes thank you um we have a a small change of agenda here uh this this evening normally we would do new business and then go to Old business um in this instance we have um a kind of a unusual situation and um I'm going to put that on first so the people involved can get on with their day the issue is um CL I think is the the name but it's 501 Hugh Street block 1049 block 10.01 this is a non-contributing fence but what is what is the issue here is before we talk about a fence we have to talk about a swimming pool that was approved in error uh in review and uh we don't approve swimming pools in review and uh exactly how it got this error was made is not clear but it doesn't mean that um the commission doesn't have an opportunity to hear it so what I'm suggesting is we take this 501 Hughes put it on the top of the agenda for next month um and it will be heard I think there might be some people in the public here um but it will not be heard tonight so um we have the architect and um you understand what the issue is and just for the record I spoke to Mr Beck told off the Record and and the applicants attorney it looks like there the consensus is to move this to the next available meeting agenda as well so the applicants in support of that is that correct Mr beo you can just turn on your microphone yes that is correct okay do we have a 45 day to deal with the applicant's going to um wave the time frame the time frame so that we can carry it to the next meeting and Mr back told if you could just sign and and give that back to the board secretary that'll confirm that absolutely I will do that thank you thank you thank you sorry for the confusion which means then the next order of business is the city of Cap May 643 Washington Street block 1059 lot 11 this is a key contributor building and it's the front doors so if you're welcome to stay but it's your business is concluded yes I took it the yeah yeah did did you all understand that 501 Hugh Street is now postponed till next meeting okay city of Kate May name and position and then what you want to do sure uh Justin rigs Deputy city manager for the city of Kate May um I'm here to propose for our exterior front doors of City Hall um as you can see from this picture here to what we have outside currently we currently have some metal doors obviously it's not great from a streetcape standpoint uh we are proposing to move towards more of a wood door for the exterior and obviously keeping some of the um hand painted City Hall on the front as well we would have that um person back out to make that um change as well D I don't do we have the material list here we do within your packet you should have a material list that was provided by the recommended vendor towards the back of it I believe the recommended vendor is the more door company they are very familiar with the city of Kate May um and they come highly recommended to the city okay um yeah we have the the cut sheet for the doors uh just in in the future we there's a form that you have to fill out that says wood sorry um rather than go around the room I'll ask the uh commission is anyone have any questions on this application go ahead Jim I I was going to say is there anybody here who doesn't think that these doors are a vast improvement over the old metal doors that um did their did their service and and are now done for so um it look to me like the city has done a a pretty thorough job of determining What It Wants having them designed I I think they're I think they're consistent with the inner doors consist with the building U so I I would uh I would certainly move this is this is a mention this is a matter of of the city um requesting an advisory opinion because that's all we an advisory report so I would be in favor of of granting an advisory report favorably on these doors you do say it wood uh and I assume that's going to be soed since as you said quarter cut uh that will be a oak finish o oak wood and the doors will be finished with like a varnish finish they're not going to be painted that is correct so we would work with the vendor um if it's hbc's you know pleasure um we were intending on having some sort of a varnish finish not paint okay okay you know more of like a stained look yeah to it I I'm I'm happy to see brass hinges on that uh hardware for the door is that going to be of antique appearance nothing um let me see I think that's missing from your from your from your application right describ you're going to you're going to furnish it it says yes I apologize push push plates you know uh guards for the door knobs to keep the protect the wood so they would be more of a modern style versus the antique Style on no not good modern hurts our ears I I I understand that I mean we can work with the vendor on your recommended um I think we were going to match what's in the photograph with brass poles if you want to look at the historic photograph of the school there if you can pass it around you want to want to pass it around we we have a picture in our in the application that was the kind of door hardware that we would be looking for and uh you know and and you can you can acquire Hardware like that uh I won't tell you the sources but if you want to ask me uh off the record I could tell you sometime sure but uh you know that's the kind of hard way we would want what what what I would propose is that we I'll make a motion to Grant an advisory opinion but advisory opinions are also issued with conditions so we would include in The Advisory opinion the the supplying of Hardware that's I mean however we write it period period appropriate okay Justin I I see the doors as being um 10 10 104 quarteron mahogany rather than oak that's just to correct the commos it's mahogany rather than oak yeah and mahogany will work we were looking for like a wood like I said aesthetic to it and if you look down underneath the hinges on the specifications list we can add that on with the hinges and the sill as well and if you look we'll make sure that the as it says this supplies will be done by the city and our DPW so whatever your opinion is on the matter we'll ensure that we comply well can can we have a motion I I'll make a motion that the application be given a favorable advisory report and that that advisory report contained conditions as to the period appropriateness of the door hardware I'll second that motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr copelan Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammeron yes thank you and then we will provide the advisory uh to the city with that one stipulation yep okay thank you thank for your time thank you Justin did you bring this with you I'll G oh okay okay old business um JTG Group LLC 1382 Lafayette Street block 1145 lot 6 this is a contributing property uh for an addition doors siding roof a front porch deck fire escape and railings everything good evening my name is Pamela fine I'm with fine architecture uh I am representing JTG group tonight for 1382 Lafayette Street and the proposed Renovations and additions we were here back in March of 23 for preliminary approval and we received that with a few condition conditions I'll run through those conditions very quickly and uh assure you that they've been Incorporated on the design uh the conceptual approval required the main roof line on the rear Edition along the third floor to be dropped uh which we dropped at about 2 feet from the existing ridgel line the front steps proposed on the front porch were widened uh prior to this they were um a little bit inside of the two innermost posts so we widen them so that the railings would terminate into the faces of the posts the gable roof line in the back uh prior to this was a Dutch Gamel to match the original roof line of the proposed edition of the uh existing uh building I should say so we changed the proposed addition roof line to Gables um there are a few shed Dormers along the side and um another Gable Dormer along the side as well and then also included in our packet we have um the revised site plan showing parking and showing Landscaping uh this was required for the zoning approval which we received so we have full zoning approval um variance approval and um uh the the parking is shown Landscaping is shown and then one other change you had asked was to have a a differentiation between the original structure and the addition along the front wall so I added a piece of trim uh clapboard vertical trim just to show um the uh change in the addition versus what was there on the Second Story along the left side other than that everything else remained the same thank you any questions or observations by well it seems like the things that we question have been answered so I think we'd have to limit our any criticism or construction to uh the things that we talked about before and it looks like uh it's all done other comments um just just Pam I I would agree with Tom the um the conditions uh that we had set forth you've answered and satisfied um and as usual you've done a stellar job in my opinion um I would make the motion that we accept this application as presented tonight I will second it motion by Mr copelan seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes and I just would like to say adding the porch back to this building really brings that building back into Kate May's character it's very exciting so glad that you know as soon as you come into K May you're picking up the porch mentality that we're trying to hold through the city thank you Pam you're very welcome Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa uh yes that could have been the longest yes vote I've ever heard Miss Wilson struck yes Mr hammeron yes thank you thank you thank you Pam next order of business cement ship Inc 163 Beach Avenue block 1185 lot 17 181 19 this is a key contributing um structure twostory rear Side Edition siding re rebuild the front porch window and trim repairs and uh renovate the garage Mr chairman I will be recusing myself on this application okay thank [Applause] you Mr Schultz can you just hit that button there just to make sure they're both green they're yeah they're they're both they're both yeah thank you oops hello so I'm Dave Schultz um partner in dis Architects and the Hunter and Margaret Cochran are the owners of 1613 Beach Avenue and our and our clients they're with you tonight they're with us today yes um the goal the goal has always been to refurbish the this house um to renovate it and to expand it so it becomes uh functional you know based on today's world as a family house we were here two months ago I'm sure you remember August 12th and we decided after some discussion to table the to table the project uh the table the application we have met uh a couple of times with the preliminary committee Review Committee and we have also modified the design based on suggestions that were made and things that we heard that we think makes it even more sensitive to the historic house so I I I have my package I think you all have copies of this so if it's all right with you I'd just like to walk you through some highlights sure and uh then we can answer any questions U as you know it's a colonial revival home with some Craftman uh style uh amenities as well um the the first page 001 are the pictures of the house which you see the main body of the house is a three-story house I think you probably remember from our last meeting uh the page 002 is the back of the house um which which is where the bulk of the addition will go because we we move the addition to the left to the West as was suggested so if I'm looking at the bottom right photo that entire house will exist in its current state um the addition is behind that and actually to the western side so if you look at the lower left photo the addition primarily sits to the rear of the house and in that l uh page 003 is the existing garage it's also original in the same we think 1912 we think it's was built when the house was built um obviously um you know there's been some changes to it that look like the 1960s windows were changed this lean to carport was added so as you recall we're simply trying to renovate that in place repair windows um repair sighting replace sighting take the cart Port down and um make it look more like it may have looked be in originally o4 is simply some contextual photos as you know the house sits almost at the end of Beach Avenue uh sheet 010 is a graphic site plan um I just want to point out well obviously the blue is the existing house in the the brown color is the footprint of the addition along the right side you'll see a notch that's a three-foot notch where we articulated the addition from the existing house so the existing house wall will return to the west and we capture that in that not to really distinguish the existing house from the addition um we'll get into plans here in a moment but the body of the addition is to the rear and to the West of the existing house U next page is the zoning aspects there's we we do not require we don't think we require any variances for this property or for this project uh sheet 200 um to the left is the basement plan which I don't think really matters to us today um in the middle is the first floor in that red dashed outline is the profile of the existing house so you you can see to you can see the new stair kind of inward in that L you can see this scen in porch which was a this was part of the suggestion that was made at the last meeting by Mr Beckle to move the addition to the left and we were able to do that um which I think he liked when we met with him in the informal meeting so we have that there we can we' have some ocean views from there the family room is smaller than it was the kitchen is about the same and that small Cooks Refuge is really a small Pavilion one story so that we can capture light into the kitchen because that's important the house is it is exist is fairly dark inside so that's the first floor layout and please stop me if I'm going too fast um the second floor is on the left of page 2011 again you can see the body of the existing house and our bedrooms our new bedrooms and our new stair are behind the house to the left um there is a rear porch That's covered and then the deck over top of the um Cooks Refuge is simply a deck an open deck the third floor is existing there's really no exterior changes to that we're just reconfiguring space um then we get to the elevation so that 01a I don't know why my office gives them all all these big numbers but they do so that is a uh that's a that's a a line drawing of what exists today you can see from this drawing I forgot to mention before that the existing porch is not original it was replaced probably in the 60s during that storm it's a painted block you know really really inexpensive lattice work the columns are skinny Etc and we in building a new porch reconstructing it will make it more period correct as you'll see next page is 601b uh you're looking at a frontal view of the house again with all the notes by and large we're refurbishing windows we we're refurbishing repainting trim um The Roof is actually maybe in good enough condition that we don't need to replace it's a cedar Shake roof but the siding will likely be replaced but all the trim would stay or we would patch and repair as required um you can see the little Pavilion the little C Cooks Refuge poking out on the right side but that's at the very very back of the house um oh brick Piers to match the existing brick and U you know high quality lattice work on the porch the porch would be completely redone um next next page is 602a that's the existing Eastern side of the house and that's and we are you know that's all we're not changing that um but you'll see we are changing that bay window we had a lot of discussion at the last meeting about that bay window so if you go to 602b you can see what we're proposing um from the left you can see the profile of the new porch um that will have um balls and railing details per year requirements again today we're here for a conceptual approval um brick Piers brick foundations we did we we thought we would take this bay window and raise it as a twostory bay because that was what was suggested at the last meeting so um that's what we're showing we're also showing those windows as double hung versus one big plate glass window um the rest of that that elevation exists where you see the shadow at the right the right side of the elevation is where the building recesses where the addition starts and you can see excuse me the on story Cooks Refuge that pokes out but there's a three foot Notch between that and the existing wall of the building again any any new areas would be Cedar Shake roof Cedar Shake sighting wood windows wood trim wood decking then we have the rear of the house 603a that's a line drawing of the rear um you can see the thin addition and you can see um that sort of awkward staring closure to the third floor uh so 603b is what's proposed but by and large this is in front of anything that existed from this view but just to describe it um you can see the porch on the second floor with the deck to the left of that there's a bay window that is that's the center point of the kitchen U there's a recess entry that's why it's in Shadow that's kind of the rear entry into the house um and the same materials would be proposed the western side of the house is shown on 604a and that shows what exists um you can see the three story portion of the house is the prominent part of the house that's that's what's facing Beach Avenue and then there's the stair from the third floor that comes down and a twostory rear Edition and what we're proposing is is of course again refurbishing the existing building the existing house and then there's the then we're going to indent 10 ft from the existing house so it's well set back that tall window is the stair window and the stair will be exposed through that window and then to the left of that is that angled screened in porch above that is the deck that sits above it so those are that's kind of a low area and then behind that is the family room and the bedroom above that's small much much smaller in scale and as you can see from this view the roof lines are much much considerably less than the existing main roof so they're subordinate to anything to the main body of the house uh 605 is the garage so the the top drawings or line drawings showing what exists and below that the same elevation of what we propose uh re you know we're we're repairing existing windows we are proposing a new Carriage door a wood garage door um I'm guessing new Roofing and some new Windows where the windows have been changed to casement style windows and we're refurbishing this stair to the second level storage LOF so the next page is more of the garage details just the other two elevations it's a fairly simple structure then at 607 we have our materials list uh so just to recap uh brick brick the brick foundations and brick peers will be brick that will either look like or match the brick that's there all the roofing will be uh cedar cedar Shake Roofing um either to match you the existing all the siding will be Cedar Shake siding and that will be natural uh windows are wood uh gel wind windows and they'll be painted and exterior trim will be wood that's painted uh lattice panels will likely be built by the contractors or Carpenters so that there's they're not thin and flimsy they're strong and they meet your requirement of 75% solid railings will be built in Period correct wood railings wood balls wood cap rails um you know 2 by two 2 in by 2 in spindles as I know you like and they'll be period correct that all the wood decking will be epe epe wood thank you and then sorry there's just a couple more pages um then we have our contextual illustrations that you should have those were the were there questions on the materials no well we'll see I don't okay um so 608 is a frontal view um we are I'm oh you don't have 608 um I might have fli I can give you mine no wait a minute it's yeah I know so that this is the contextual views that you request uh showing the surrounding buildings in context of our site we are raising the House 2 fo 8 in we are proposing a brick wall similar to the tester residence down the block from this location I'm guessing it's about two and a half to three feet tall um so that's the frontal view that's a street that's really you know it's a digital model but it's taken from the middle of the street and then the next page should be 609 um and this is a this is from the Western perspective so kind of from the street but looking from the West um where you can see the body the main body of the original house and then there's a recess which you can't really see because you're not seeing Shadow here but there's the screened in porch in that indented area and then the body of the twostory Edition at the farb far rear and there should be one more um that's 610 which shows the which is not in our package for some reason but U it should show you the the rear the right the right side of the house and the rear little Cooks Refuge that pokes out a little bit want to add anything to that so we're we're we're I think at this point I've kind of gone through the drawings and I'm happy to answer any questions could you just could you just refresh my memory this on the facing the building on the right side this part of the addition in the back I thought we had agreed that that would be embedded on the left side and that that would be eliminated we did discuss that um and there was a lot of if you remember there's a quite a bit of discussion with Mr Beckle and yourself and um I don't think there was total agreement evidently not because it's there he agreed well he he was I know his point of view was this met the spirit of the of the of the historic guidelines in the ordinance and we agree with that we've distinguished it from the original house it's at the far rear of the house it's just a little piece of the building that pokes out and it gets us light into the kitchen that's what uh that was his opinion and frankly that's kind of was that his statement during uh when you came back to the Review Committee no that was the preliminary meeting that was a informal meeting uh Mr Beckle was there Mr Copeland was there and I know we discussed it at length um um in order to for this house to really function well we're really trying to get light into that side of the house that is the kitchen and it'd be a real shame not to let the owners have views which is that's that's the predominant view of the ocean and this property I think it's also an effort to uh take advantage of the extra lot that exists to the east well of course as opposed to it just being land but of course the extra lot is part of the streetscape which we're trying to maintain um we'll go around the room but um yeah I thought I thought our conversation was that the the additional pieces to the right side would be embedded on the left side the idea is um not just differentiation but the idea of of an addition on a historic property especially one as significant as this key property um that the addition would not be visible from the front or the side yard and I thought what we had discussed was we were willing to make an exception on the left side um as an accommodation and that the right side would be preserved um but um so there it's a lot of addition to a key building and and I understand why you want to do it and all that but those of us that own historic homes are used to some limitation but but let's go around the room first but just to clarify something because we we sat in that meeting for quite a while I you I'm sure you remember that Mr Beckle was in favor of what we were proposing at the time he thought we met the standards and I know that you disagreed with him on that but we we we we favored what he suggested at that meeting no disrespect please but I wish he was here tonight no well no you it's it's it's hard to offend members of the historic preservation commission um good to know yeah we don't want to offend the but we do think we have that we think the design of this this this house the addition is sensitive to the existing house we articulate it and it does frankly complement and feature the existing house in a lot of ways well well uh let's let's go around the room and then we can come back um Kevin do you want to um sure comment you know I think would you talk again the mic please first of all it's obvious it's a very elegant renovation and an addition I mean I don't think anybody would take anything away from the aesthetic attractiveness of this um I agree with you I think that the issue simply is it's not consistent with the standard um to to bump out onto the side of the house uh visible from the front um the question I think that came up in the meeting somewhere along the line I thought was that was it possible to take the cook's refuge and slide it around to the back of the house turn the kitchen so that it opens that nice bay window out onto the what is that the East Elevation I guess and it doesn't take anything away from the functionality it lets all the light into the kitchen that you had before you still have the rooftop deck um coming it just extends out into the back instead of to the side um there's a you know certainly a line of side visible to the the extra yard and to um the street in the ocean um I I I don't see the logic to approving the cooks Refuge like this in a way that's inconsistent with our standards everything else everything else is I think has met all the the objections that the commission committee had had and uh I think are are actually nice improvements on the house and the Str the garage in particular and so on do you have a comment yeah just just a comment that I was not part of the um the the committee but I understand the comments that um that were made here as far as um you know adhering to the standards that that's all Jake I just feel it it just came as a surprise that I know last meeting there was a lot of discussion about moving it to the rear to the left side and I mean I think that if the cook's Refuge was moved to where the screened in porch was it would still provide ocean views but it's set back enough that it wouldn't be uh too obtrusive just Tom the uh extension of the one side that we're talking about uh I feel it's fair consider the fact that the property owner has that whole lot there and that also leaves that little uh Conservatory appearing thing perfectly to look out into a garden area that could be developed there and probably would be over the time so that really doesn't uh that doesn't disturb me but I'll certainly be going along with the majority of the opinion here um one thing U David you said that the spindles on all the rails that are going on the spindle is a full 2 in of ride did you could you also say that that the distance between those is no more than 3 in yes okay correct because that actually gives the bulk look that we need in that area yeah and when I look at the side view at the The View looking back from the front it looks like the beautiful lattice is all along the front but under the little addition to the right that it looks more like a cement front there rather than a lattice front you are correct and I guess I was wondering if anybody would see that because if you look at the other elevations which elevation there it's drawn correctly so if I look at he's talking about rear just give me the elevation drawing let's see let me go back a couple how about if you look at 610 which shows lattice on the side yeah but not lattice like all the other laes that are facing forward yes so there it that was something I saw today too late to change it uhuh um if you look at 602b which is the end side elevation of that same uh Cooks Refuge uh you'll see lattice work there um let's see if you look at 603b sorry I'll wait for you 602 B B 603b I'll go back a little further in the package you're you're at the end I think keep going it's I'm looking at the elevation drawings well I'm looking at 601 you got do the back 602 603 I know am I missing a 602b can I show you okay what I was referring to here it's shown correctly yes with the latti and here shown correctly with the same part of the building and somewhere it's not I think I think I found the the front view of it which didn't show lattice the intent would be that it's lce and yeah I think the other in reality I think and getting into more detail on the project that that that that's ref oh I see you're looking at the FR 601b I think is is the yes that's right thing that doesn't I don't have a 601b that's why no you don't I'm missing missing that that's okay you you you've shown me and and obviously that's the intention and if I'm the one that makes the motion I would just say that that would be that that that aligns with our thinking we don't think there would be a basement there would be it' be open okay I'm doing Janice um yeah I agree it's an elegant design in many ways with wonderful materials it's a fabulous house I have um some small questions and a big question um on the materials list I saw simulated divided lights that are wood and I think hadn't we talked about having F divided lights the simulated divided light with the gelled wind is uh what we have it's approv we have agreed to as close as we can get divid on um the East and proposed East and um West elevations in the New Edition in the Dormer there are these Crescent Windows where all the other fenestration is traditional rectangular so I was kind of wondering why yeah um like that so if they exist we want to refurbish them as Lantern arched Windows some of them don't EX exist that way um and we we also we may end up um using some of the windows that aren't going to be in the uh final project to repurpose them and we're we're not sure but the front of the house it I believe the front of the house we're not showing Lantern Windows Lantern Arch because that's not that's not what exists right um but what exists are wood true divider light windows so it's odd that they don't exist everywhere we were simply going to maintain them where they exist yeah I was looking at the addition and the new new windows that were not I think it's the addition isn't it on East and West what page are you on J 60 two 2B and 604b um on the left side of the can you see this the all of this is existing right the only thing new is this piece here so those are all existing Windows okay from here right here right so I'm looking at this window for instance oh the half round yeah the half round um yeah that's that's a new window right um that doesn't exist obviously um you know that's uh that's that's what we thought would look best there but we're open to other options okay I just think it's it's um it calls attention to itself in a way that doesn't really make sense to me but again that's a small thing for me the big thing is that this is a key contributing structure and our standards are very clear that owners of key contribut contributing structures are stewards of History so when an addition is this large regardless of how much you try to hide it it's not going to be a key contributing structure anymore and I find that Troublesome so that's all I have to say Mr chairman could I just add one thing to this discussion just I'm hearing the discussion specifically about the bump ad I just want to be clear for the board members the standard that we're talking about and as I see it f page 54 of the standards referencing additions and site placement just so we have this in the back of our heads when we're deliberating here additions should ideally be located in the rear of a building to minimize their impact and reduce visibility from the public right away additions to the side of a building should to be located near the rear and set back a significant distance from the front facade Landscaping can soften the appearance of a side addition but obviously you have to as Janice indicated you got to take into consideration to this a key contributing building but I just want to make sure everybody had the St keep talking about the standards well that's the standard can I add to that um I think there's also an illustration in the guidelines which show two or three examples of side additions two historic structures and and I and uh you know one is red which is no and I think one is green they chose a a smaller addition you know in scale to the major parts of the existing building and that's we feel that we comply with that illustration that that and regardless of whether the addition sticks out or not we're it's a very Small Bump out and it's entirely behind the house it's not even attached to the house at that point we we that's why we're we're feeling that it really is in in compliance um before we continue the discussion I I think that there's some interest from the public um for if someone would like to make a comment would they come to the microphone turn it on make sure it's green and we need your name and address please thank you talking to the mic please is it good uh my name is Jeffrey Morris uh 1621 Beach Avenue neighbor of Hunter and uh I appreciate the committee's concern about the bump out and I just would like to make a few comments uh you know obviously we've been talking about the unique features in the character of the house the importance of his location uh and I've been looking at 1613 for 30 years um and it's on the last block of Beach Avenue it's the third structure from from poverty Beach so clearly the closest key contributing house to one of our iconic beaches now the Mac Trolley Tours goes down there several times a day it's even going now in the shoulder season three times a week so times a week the house does fortunately for we who look at it has a a three-sided streetscape uh because of the side lot and also because of the property to the east of it has some Greenery and a driveway so you do get a really long view of that uh east side and so I appreciate the committee's concern about that um anyone who passes it you know sees it uh the house will become even more important as city council and the mayor pursue their extanded their EXT their expanded vision of further highlighting the East End of Beach Avenue by extending the prominade they also hope and we also hope that there's National Park designation particularly related to the buildings in town but it's inevitably going to bring people to Poverty Beach because of the connections so I'm asking the HPC and look I think they did a great job on a lot of things I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water I'm just talking about a specific thing that interferes with the sight line uh which I think is an iconic feature of that house that you can see it all the way to the garage you can see the stairs going up and even speaking with the previous owners 30 years ago that Loft was an art studio for the a wife of the original Builders and owners of the building so I think there's a lot there um you know I'd like my current I'd like my current grandchildren to continue to see what I see I'd like their grandchildren to continue to see what I see and certainly the count count countless visitors uh so you know that's really my view of it being having walked the block bike ride everybody looks at our buildings we know that that's one of the key contributing things of Cape May so I appreciate some of the comments from the board members and I hope that we can resolve that in a in a favorable way uh to you know keep it keep contributing and keep the the streetcape uh which is so iconic in itself um I kind of heard but I wasn't sure does this this goes to no other uh boards or committees for approval after this is that what I heard from right so this is really it in terms of you know the stewardship of you know of this house yes okay thank you my comments anyone else from public good evening uh Mike Casino 1621 Beach Avenue um I just like to Echo what Mr Morris said uh it's a very unique area very unique home uh the areas around it are very unique and that you know the sight lines are not only from the street from the rear from the East and from the beach quite honestly um so I do have concerns about that bump out on the east side um just an additional concern I have would be Landscaping is that something that is um a plan has to be submitted for or is that something that is uh not taken into consideration that would be my only other concern Landscaping is um part of an HPC review and and it has been used um uh to cover things that otherwise would would not be as appropriate we've gone so far as even to have uh deed restrictions on the landscaping for maintenance purposes because you do a nice Landscaping plan and 10 years later it you take it out or something or it dies and um and um that may be a consideration as we go forward I we'll we'll see all right thank you other members of the public um I I would Echo the the comments of most of the members of the HBC and the audience I you believe it it meets the our standards but I don't and the the addition on the right side facing the the home on the right side is conspicuous and um it I think it detracts from the original property um a key uh property I think we've made some accommodation not not I think we've made some accommodation on the left side and there's quite a bit of addition there and so um I I don't think you've met the standard it is a key property I understand why you want to do it I understand you have the lot and all those issues and I'm sympathetic but I I don't think it me the standard so and I I hoped when we when we met that we had a better understanding of that in fact I'm a little surprised that it's come back with the addition so did you recruit the neighbors to come speak about it did I what did you recruit the neighbors to come speak about it absolutely not not even close and you've done almost The Impossible you have offended me we talked about that a minute ago it's almost impossible to do it well and but it's accomplished um well I we apologize do I have a motion um okay I'm I'm going to make a motion that I don't think everybody's going to agree with but it's how I feel uh this is here for preliminary review and I'm very sympathetic with everything there they trying to do and I'm very sympathetic with how the other members are looking at it so I would say if the applicant came back with a nice development plan that would go along with this bump out in that bare space where it's highly visible and came up with you know a really attractive planning area and there's almost no plannings around this house that would help it this would really be a great place to put a planning and separate that house from some of the newer things around it that that's the plan I would be looking for without that I would have to go along with everybody else here and say that I would not go uh along with that bump out so my my motion is to have you come back and show us what you could do to tie that lot and L Landscaping in with you know the the kind of gardening that major houses like that would have had you know historically as well absolutely that's my motion I'm sorry I'm confused yeah so are you are you is this for conceptual approval or tabling it conceptual approval and when and when would we see the Landscaping plan when when they return I don't think um I appreciate the effort and I agree that we can talk about Landscaping at some point in the future I don't think you'll have a second for that motion I I I would make a motion that we approve the are you going to vote me down first well you don't have a second oh okay well is there is there a second going once going twice okay I'll make a motion that we accept the the uh the plan as present it do I have a second if you second do you have to vote for it no okay I'll second it the our motions are always stated in the public okay okay and that's for con conceptual is that correct Warren or final it's final okay motion by I'm sorry con conceptual it's conceptual okay motion by Mr copelan seconded by Miss Wilson stck Mr copelan no Mr Carol yes Mr Stevenson no Mr Tesa is not voting Sorry Miss Wilson strick no Mr hammeron no thank you thank you thank you very much so hopefully our conversation has been helpful and you can yes absolutely has been helpful it has been along the entire process and again we we appreciate your time and and input continue we look forward to revisiting it with you yeah Hunter we continue to be available at on Tuesday mornings not tomorrow morning but all other Tuesdays right um and I I would encourage to continue dialogue to try to get close to what you want and preserve the key designation so thank you very good thank thank you very much so we are able to come back with a another application yes is that what you're suggesting absolutely without the clock R thank you no this is done so if they come back with another application the clock starts again thank you I think we understand thanks very much okay next order of business Dy 211 Grant Street block 1022 Lot 23 this a contributing property this is a Dormers Windows deck rebuild front porch fence driveway walkways and and a familiar face for the record hello again uh Pam fine from fine architecture I'm here um representing my clients J uh JN John and Donna Doty of 211 Grant Street uh so we were here last year in July we received um conceptual approval with a few uh changes to the plan and I'll run through those real quick um they were fairly minor minor so the HVAC was asked to be sorry Pam could you hold up a minute did we get an email about the owners not being here uh oh well they're they're here oh they are here yeah okay do you want them to join me no we can just we can just indicate for the record that the owners are in the gallery and and Miss fine is I'm sorry thank you no problem no problem sit up there all by yourself I know it's okay I'm used to it I'm good um so uh just to recap from the conceptual approval uh the requests that night were made um uh the following was done so the HVAC was asked to be moved and placed on a new wood platform um the existing HVAC was actually like half on half off of their uh property line in the back um so we actually mov the HV AC above an existing um uh exterior shower in the back uh we're going to redo the shower just because it's not really in great shape um so that's going to be wood painted wood and then we'll have the hvc platform above that and this was actually a request made by the zoning uh board um the other changes were the uh one over one windows so last time I was here I had grills in the windows I move them so now all the windows on the home match they'll be the one over one uh Colby style and um other changes that resulted from the Zoning Board hearing were we removed the retaining wall there was a retaining wall that went around the perimeter of the building of the perimeter of the property I should say uh just to kind of help with um some flooding issues that we've been dealing with on site uh we removed the retaining wall because that was triggering a pretty major CH to storm water uh retention so uh the retaining wall came off um we removed the back deck so we were here uh previously there was a a fairly large siiz deck in the back we took that off because again that was triggering some pretty substantial changes to uh storm water treatment so uh we took the deck off we put a small Landing in its place and a small set of stairs that went to the zoning board and they approve that um let's see so the front uh under the deck the lattice was removed and we now have the horizontal slats made of wood and let's see shower I already touched on um no retaining wall and no grills yeah so those were all the changes that were made from uh the conceptual plants you saw back in July of 23 and to now and then I also have some uh selections for lighting that were included this time around um there's a scon that the owner is like and there's a couple selections of um ceiling fans as well so we wanted to get your opinion on those thank you um we'll go around the room um Jim you want to start sure um it it seems to me your your elaboration of the changes that were made is very complete um I I find that when I I always try to flip between the after and the before and the after and the before um and and I find that the um the the addition of the well hidden shed Dormer on the re on the rear roof is perfectly fine because it just does doesn't show up when you're looking at the building from the front um all all of the U things I can think of U that you were asked to do you did uh you did some other stuff you just um elaborated on I do have a question for you why did you go um away from the diagonal lattice to the horizontal board I think it it's just kind of more like a style uh preference um the diagonal lattice is very traditional I know it's historical it is but you also have horizontal cab so right that that to me is is consistent I just wondered if there was a specific reason did it just just a choice of style exactly okay um no I I have no um no objection I think this complies with our and moves in the direction of final approval um meeting the tests that we imposed on it so those are my comments Janice yeah I have a hard time with like going between the proposed and existing like it would be great if we could see him next to each other or one right after the other okay I I use one eye for each you one eye for each okay um yeah I mean it's it's I think in general it's a really good stive addition um it's quite an addition I have a question about the fenestration on um A5 Little Square Windows along the top and on the Dormers yeah they just look odd to me um they don't go with the sort of rectangular shape or the double hung and I'm just wondering how they're going to look I mean you know I I I look at these two dimensional drawings and I can't project out to the aesthetic and so what I really look at is the 2D sort of um coherence of your design in general is very good but I'm just questioning that um other than that that's that's all you mean these these guys up here yeah yeah yeah so the the shed Dormer addition um is really just the only addition on that house those uh along the back on the two sides um they were purposely pulled in if you look on the rear elevation you can see how small of an addition uh they actually are um that all stemm from zoning requirements with floor area ratio so we were very limited and just getting light up there was really the idea we have little eyebrow Windows like that um on our third floor and they are actually you know they open out like this and they have four lights um I can't see that here it would get really busy but uh it just seems like you know in general the design is nicely balanced all the fenestration seems to have a logic except that to my eye so that's all Tom um I'm I'm having a little trouble but too with the uh horizontal boards versus a lattice okay uh it looks like it was another floor below the first floor but just didn't happen to have any Windows whereas a lattice finish or and I've seen other Victorian houses with all different kinds of trim other than just either the square or the angled uh lattice uh I need be happy to share some pictures of things I've taken like that with with you and you're looking at things like that sure but I I I I really think that should be either a lattice or something other that says this is the breathing element underneath the house okay maybe having the lattice on a horizontal vertical access instead of the angle would look better I'll make some sus and see but okay so we'll go either lattice or um there were other another consideration okay this is this is going to be a final approval so it would be a condition okay of the final approval in terms of the status for the Review Committee well maybe not maybe just make sure that it's Jake okay um just um couple minor questions um I know Pamela you had brought it up regarding the tailing fans yes and you you've offered quite a few options in the back and one of them the one at the bottom is very modern yeah and I mean the other ones are kind of like imitation period right but I think they would fit in a little better okay so the one option let me see just so that I'm on the same page the other ones are so obviously modern so the let's see if the other out of order here Pam you you have one page with this fan yes and then you yeah there were a couple options yeah so the one I thought was a little too modern so we found the one 52 in uh kitler tide weather and I thought that was a little more appropriate so I just wanted to run that by okay so we'll do that additionally one other thing was you know you have the Brickstone pavers and in the standards it indicates that it should be red brick so there's no um so the red option yep red brick okay um Kevin um I I personally agree I think the lattice should be something other than the cross you know cross panels I I think a lattice would look nice with a you know some sort of a patchwork kind of appearance um the fans actually none of the fans appeal to me but I I like you know kind of the reproduction looks and those sorts of things I just think they they look classy in this kind of a a structure um and then lastly the fireman and me worries a little bit about the presence of the air handling unit above the shower the electric and the and the water being that close it just worries me a shade so yeah typically will fiberglass um the platform so that there is a weather barrier there you're not going to have the spray Going Up and Under the units just just uh speaking as as a former volunteer fireman understood let's let's hope you don't have to get called except you'll know how to deal with it um I I would agree with the comments that are made and um I I think the when we talk about privacy lattice it most people immediately assume that it's on a diagonal when in fact it can be square and I think the square would fit this property um I I too had a question about the fan and I think you've answered that um but it wasn't clear in your paperwork okay you know you have this one page that's full so I think we should include that in the any motion that we make that this is the fan we'll do um y s and and which which fan is that the 52 inch kiter it's Pickler yeah however you pronounce it J it's just it's it's on the single page before the it's not really historic looking but it's more historic looking than the others the difficulty is finding a fan for exterior applications very it's very so yeah trying to find a historical appropriate ceiling fan for outside is extremely difficult so we tried to find something that lent itself um yeah so I'm comfortable with the rest I'm sensitive to your observation Janice but with a dormer that is is within standard there's there's not a room really for a horizontal you wind up with a square window and if we could go bigger we would have and and we would be we'd like the but we would object to the door so do I have a motion could I have could I just make two more points you may uh your fence looks like it has the standard 4x4 post which basically means uh almost like a 3X3 post nowadays I would strongly suggest you go with a 6x6 which is more like a 5 by5 uh for the structural strength of the fence and I've also been recently look trying to look at fans uh for my own front porch and uh the one I I I I don't really want to publicize Hunter but the hunter classic is the fan that actually comes as close to that open cage work underneath that so much uh replicates the fans they were kind of used to in oldfashioned places if you want to take a look good to know yes I would love to see that I will look that up do I have a motion I'll make a motion that we Grant final approval to the application um with conditions inserted into the final approval to um make sure that the um lattice that's presented is square um wood lattice that the pavers are red brick pavers um that the fan be uh be that that the fan be either your suggested 52-inch kickler or um looking at the hunter series at the fan be um as appropriate as possible to period um a period fan um and that with respect to your fence that you use nominal 6x6 posts instead of nominal 4x4s those would be the conditions to the motion I'm sorry Jim could you just repeat the brand of the fan did you say well she's proposed a kickler fan k l e r kitler k i l r but but Tom suggested she might want to look at at Hunter to just to be sure the the motion really would be that the fan would be as period authentic as as possible as practicable and a cut sheet of those to be provided to the Review Committee yeah and that and the satisfaction of this would would would result in you doing those things and providing all the the final submission to the Review Committee on on on the conditions no problem I'll second that motion thank you motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Miss Wilson strk Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hammeron yes thank you thank you next order of business GC Ventures LLC 314 plank are in place this is block 1031 lot 60 3 and 64 it's not rated and this is for offense Mr chairman these fine folks are my neighbors within 200 ft so I have to recuse myself thank you did we skip over Hoff and Dempsey oh good evening over someone ex we here we're at Doty and then oh I'm sorry I did skip over someone yeah it is first come first serve so yeah yeah they sorry sorry guys I think you just lost a member on that recuse it did you get Jake back if you soon Mr chairman I have to recuse myself on this this is my next door neighbor off okay they're GC venters okay back on track maybe oh am I being recall you are because they you're being recalled another application oh okay you're being recalled right Kevin is okay okay people next order of business this is 10:06 Washington Street block 1110 lot two this a contributing defense evening Mr chairman members of the board Richard Hoff um the owner of uh 6 Washington Street here for an application for a fence for our property um actually proposing sort of two different styles along the front of the house we're proposing a picket 1 and A2 by one and A2 picket 4 foot high um six the 6in posts for for that fence we're proposing that run just along the side of the property if you were facing the street if you were facing the home from Washington it would be to the to the right I don't know if that's probably not East because East would be the way to the right uh to the property line and then the picket would run down uh the uh common property boundary with the house which is actually the in at the lake I think it's called to the to the right uh and then along the back we're proposing a a 1x6 horizontal board on board that portion of the fence would just run along the rear of the property line to give us some privacy from the uh Park Kanas Park that our house up to and then we would run the picket along the garage side of the house but back to the corner of the house it's not going to go to the West Side um and really the fence is just for the dogs to keep them because it's getting to be a pain putting them on the leash and walking them around so um we've modeled this after we've included the cut sheets here um the style is one that we've liked we've walked around town we see this one quite a bit um the picket the the one half and per the Mr Carol's earlier comment yes we are going to do the 6in posts as they get um to gain some accent and uh We've included sort of a diagram of where as I just describe they would be in relation to where's the picket ends and where the the 1x6 picks up the 1ex six in the back will be six feet obviously will conform with all zoning officers requirements as to where it needs to be located off the property line um um but that's pretty much it U the location along the front we are proposing that the picket would start at the corner of the house as the original not not bringing it up to the porch level but putting it setting it back a little bit so it would run off the corner of the actual house structure itself so that's the um rather than go around the room um any questions or observations from the members of the commission I'm sorry did Mr hammeron recuse for this one as well he did thank you not not as well just for this one oh right it was Jake that recused excuse me we're good we're good any questions observation yes I have I have an observation and a question why the why the horizontal madira for privacy uh it was just really just a preference uh in terms of style uh I know there are some exist in City fences along the back uh as you go along the park that are the vertical um we frankly just in our hometown we happen to see if this vertical fence that or the horizontal that just from an appearance standpoint looked looked a little nicer than the vertical I I guess I I disagree with that I I I think that a vertical privacy fence would do a lot better for you at the at the legal limits and provide as much privacy I don't think the the horizontal is consistent with your house um it is I will grant you back there and and so I get I get swayed by the fact that nobody really see it but I just don't think it's the most appropriate privacy fence for your house I had the same reaction I figured it's in the back you probably can't see it from the street and it is sort of the thing right now the horizontal just like the previous with instead of the lattice it was horizontal so that is the current Style but we're in a town that doesn't really subscribe to current Styles so I kind of agree with Tom I mean Jim Jim Tom Tom may not agree with me at all that you know um it's probably not the best choice I'm in agreement with just one exception if the top foot of that fence was a lattice uh it softens the height of it and still gives the privacy in the area and I think that fence uh it it's used quite a bit around town where people want the privacy but don't want it to look quite as much like a wall it softens it that would be my suggestion Tom do they do they have horizontal with the with the no I was GNA that's what I was going to say they have a vertical right solid solid vertical yeah that's a nice looking and very often used yeah and and when warping does come into to fact as time goes on uh vertical warping becomes much much more visible than uh well horizontal comes much more visible than the vertical they they could they tend to dry a whole lot easier and not warp that's interesting other other comments the only comment that I'll make is because will be exposed to the park in the back I agree with everything that's being said here so having the um uh you know not the uh horizontal but the vertical for visibility so I do I I I would agree I this is a contributing property and even though it's in the back it is kind of visible because of the location of the of the property could we I mean I noticed that this has been checked for conceptual approval but could couldn't we just make it final and just just oppose a condition that the fencing I mean the other fencing is is fine I I would agree but it's up yeah I I did it as conceptual because I originally thought it could be approved concept that's why I checked conceptual now you don't have to go to zoning no no no no it would be final I just want some clarification if if it switched to Vertical did can I just do vertical or do I have to do lattice at the top no no it's just an option just a suggestion okay okay so so so I would motion go ahead I I would move to give this application final approval not conceptual approval and that would be with respect to all the fencing except the backyard fencing which would be conditioned to be vertical privacy fence of wood of six feet height with solid in other words there would be no horizontal fening yeah just you're okay with that Mr hofford that's I'm not going to argue and I will second that with an option that have the final top of the fence the one foot be a lattice Interruption with the vertical boards I'm sorry gentlemen is this going to the re so now so now we have this converted from a from a 6ot solid to a to a possible what 5 foot solid with a one foot opening I think there's a a practical limitation here that you're going to find that the size fence you want is more readily available with the lattice to um and I would make the motion uh motion's made well modify the motion so that that gives the applicant either or okay so it has been modified I think to that extent right with my second person motion my second was with the modification um I I I leave it up to council the applicant can choose either of the two options on the record it's up to the applicant okay just not the horizontal that's the motion correct correct yes okay right figure us out and this is to be submitted to the for the Review Committee he can just provide a cut sheet of his selection final selection yeah to me to the review to the Review Committee correct okay thank you motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Stevenson Mr Tesa yes Miss Wilson strick yes thank you thank you thank you thank you next order of business Dempsey 665 Hugh Street block 1058 lot 15 contributing property in an outside shower I would like to add that I have visited this property and just tried to make suggestions and alter and ideas to him uh without locking in if you feel I should recuse myself that I will but I have no financial gain whatsoever in this just trying to help a neighbor there's no need to there's no need to recuse yourself thank you Mr chairman and members of the commission I appreciate the opportunity to come talk to you this evening uh I'd like to point out that my husband Jack is with me as well as three full-time residents of Hugh Street who are here to support us Beth AER and Chris and Marty Lutz I wanted to give you a little bit of background that leads up to this request tonight for an outdoor shower enclosure we bought 665 Hue Street in 20121 and immediately started a renovation of the Interior to make the house a Four Season home as well as to update it for modern living having concluded over two years that restoration we then started an ambitious restoration of the exterior to include replacing the asbestos roof shingles and metal roofs with cedar shake and standing seam metal roofs adding new cedar siding insulation sheathing which the house had never had and a top-of-the-line Zip system to encapsulate the exterior we repaired and retained all the original windows replaced the large diameter gutters and replaced the shutters the fencing and virtually every stick of wood on the house with new sepil African mahogany wood I was very worried that once we removed the old cedar siding we would find a lot of rot in the framing but I was pleased and I think you will be as well that there were only three small areas of rot in this 150 to 17-year-old house and that was in three corners where the gutters had failed the old growth wood framing is like steel I consider this restoration to have been a most successful partnership with the city with the HPC and with us the homeowners this committee approved our HVAC permit request to install condenser units in the side yard facing Hugh Street the month we closed on the house in June 2021 a couple of months later you allowed us to add a propane tank which our neighbors said we would never get permission for while we waited for the moratorium on opening Hugh Street up to run a gas line expired so we had that propane tank for about two and a half years and then got rid of it and replaced it with a gas line you also approved our request for the exterior restoration and for awnings on the um setback side of our house that was in line with the secretary and the interior guidance for awnings on historic buildings now to the specific request that we have before you tonight we initially thought that we could use the main floor bathroom shower as our outdoor shower but we have a constant stream of beachgoers at our house and in the past 3 years we've had far too much sand going into our plumbing and to the city's Water and Sewer lines so we also considered other options such as the prominade showers and an outdoor faucet but with five frequent in Resident children under the age of five and one disabled adult it isn't sustainable to strip them down on the prominade particularly not the adult or get the enormous amounts of sand they bring home off with a cold water faucet and hose so we started looking at places where we might be able to add an outdoor shower after multiple meetings with City staff and because of setback and multiple D variance issues we jointly determined that the only achievable option was an enclosure attached to our shed 35 ft back from the front edge of our property line and like the HVAC units facing Hugh Street also like the HVAC units we propos constructing the enclosure out of the same material as the shed painted to match and again like the HVAC units we will further minimize the appearance of the enclosure with historically appropriate Landscaping we will still need to petition the city zoning office for a hopefully easier to acquire type c variance to allow us to attach the enclosure to the shed provided you approve our permit request because of the number of first floor Windows multiple exterior doors a sto the gas meter and narrow access clearances there literally is no option to attach the enclosure to the house that meets historic construction and Zoning requirements I've done a lot of review not as much as you all but a lot of review over the last almost four years of the Secretary of the Interior guidelines which allow for a minimally visible addition on a historic property to provide for modern use but I realize there are many interpretations of and a lot of subjectivity around what those terms mean I hope we have demonstrated over the past three plus years that we are concerned about and committed to meeting and at least two cases exceeding the high standards of historic preservation in this Jewel of the city and that you will approve our request because we have demonstrated over and over that we will deliver an enclosure that fully respects the importance of historic preservation Mr chairman thank you again for allowing me the opport opportunity to speak to you and um we have had a discussion about about this your your presentation was articulated clearly but for the group um and to confirm my understanding this shed if you look at Hugh Street yes sir um the shed that you're talking about adding the shower is is in the back here is that correct no the um let me make sure that I'm looking at the same thing you're looking at it's actually shown on the the plan that has the Landscaping is that right m d yes it is and it's the enclosure is there's an existing shed back there right and the shower enclosure will be built towards hu street right yes on the front side but there's a bunch of landscaping there yeah in that backyard landscap and well it's it's it's it's roughly 2third of the way back along the lot it's 35 ft from the front edge of the property line and about uh 10 ft further away than the HVAC unit and the reason you didn't want to put it in the back of the shed was zoning issues I did want to put it in the back of the shed but there are there would be at least three and possibly four type D zoning variances and it would be as I've been told I'm not the expert on this virtually impossible to get all of those variances cleared there are health and safety issues with the tight uh Pathways as well as multiple setback issues and the shower would also open to the shed which then everyone believes I would use the shed as a accessory dwelling which I would not but it doesn't matter what I would do so lots of issues with putting it in the back yeah when we talk talk though one of the limitations to putting it in the back is you wouldn't be able to make the shower as large as you would like no the shower would still be uh would follow the guidelines of six foot 6 feet long by 4 feet deep by 6 feet high it could be that size even if it were in the back you would just require additional variance relief prob probably due to the distance between the buildings because it's closer the house and the building and the setbacks no even if we made a smaller shed it still would require type D variances I mean I'm sorry a smaller shower so so on this application you've checked that the application requires zoning board approval and you'd be going there and then then you also need to check conceptual approval because that's what you're here for okay if you have to go for zoning board approval so this is an application for conceptual approval I I having a shower facing Hugh Street is is a problem for me and if if you were willing to make the shower a little bit smaller and put it in back of the shed and go for the variant that seems to be the most preferable I mean I Hugh Street one of the is it is it the case that the that the shed and the new shower stall that's proposed will look virtually identical they will look identical identical and there will be screening for so so so what we're really looking at is a rebuilding of is is is is the addition onto a shed of something that looks like a shed but it's really a shower stall in the same materials covered by vegetation 2third of the way down the a lot and when I met I took your guidance Mr chairman and when I met with the city staff um the only way we could get to a type c variance in the backyard would be a 3 foot by 3 foot shower and that then would not get to a type c between the shed and the house that's where the big limitation is because there's only about right now 24 Ines between those structures can I ask a quick question just looking at the scale of where uh Hugh Street is and to where the start of the structure would be am I looking at it it'll be about 35 ft does that seem pretty accurate that is what I measured so open to my error but that's I measured 35 ft okay from our front property line to the shed to the shed and with Landscaping in between there's trees bush and things like that yes I'd like to State my personal opinion here I I think that this house has been so effectively restored and you've put so much into it um that um it it's it's a fine example of what to do and a restoration and personally I think you deserve the credit and the benefit of the doubt and the benefit of um our assistance in moving forward with your shower stall I I've written when I when I read this I wrote small recessed and unobtrusive and and that's really what I believe it is so so I'm I I would be in favor of granting this conceptual approval with the shower stall placed in front of the shed and technically visible from Hughes street but in practice to be blocked by assume will be abundant Landscaping yes sir that that's that's my position on this this is Dempsey just just to confirm one other thing do you have to take out any Landscaping to put the shower in or is it no the landscaping that's in front of the shed right now is um large grasses very large grasses and they get cut back every year so we would want to add additional Landscaping so that when they are cut back you don't see the shed and we haven't completely finalized all of the Landscaping but I have a conceptual plan from the landscaper but frankly we needed to find out whether we could add the shower or not before we get to that so your opposing a more robust Landscaping yeah that's going to last not take away from what's there you want to make something that's going to last right okay that adds screening to the shower which is uh practical as well because it's a shower it's a shower right Mr sty with the the out building there is the way it reads here in the property report is it looks like it was either an original moved to that location or a new addition but built between 1890 and 1909 is that correct that's what our research has shown too what happened there was uh there's a 1850 map that is cited frequently there was a Structure on our lot in 1850 and the city believes that our house was was built in 1850 I don't believe that's correct according to a lot of the record research that we did I think the house wasn't built until 1860 to 1865 but that structure keeps moving it became part of the house um in the 1890s and then a new structure a new shed as it were was built that became part of the house in the approximately 1930s because its Depression era construction once once we removed the siding and so then I think the shed that exists today was built sometime after the 1930s but the shed is not a contributing structure it's not original but it but it's in the period of significance right it's it's before it it's it predates the period of significance for in so it still is a contributing structure am I interpreting that right no the period of significance changed from 1940 to 1948 um this would be prior to that and um I I'm sympathetic to to what you want to do because you've done so much work to that house for Jim's Point um and the renovation is really striking but it just seems like um by reducing the size of the shower and going for the variance especially if if you're backed up by an HPC that that's would support the variance I think one of the issues is is the aspiration to keep the shower as large as you're proposed you can you don't have to go to a 3X3 shower but a six foot shower is we actually did have to go to a 3X3 to get all One D variants I'm talking about excluded and the the the 4x6 Shard that's proposed it's not an Olympic pool it it is a it's it's a a larger shower than than a 48 inch or 36 incher um but it just seems to me that either way she will need a variance and and and I and I would think that we would help her in giving her the wherewithal to go for the variance that she thinks is needed because she deserves from overall consideration of what she's done to the property our help and and I would do that by granting I I I I agree with everything you said except those of us that have done a lot of historically appropriate and accurate uh renovation doesn't mean then that we get a a a free pass say it's a pass I say it's I say it's weight into consideration of this particular addition it's not a pass she still needs a variance and she's still purporting to do everything with authentic materials to make it look just like the shed so it's a question of whether you see a shed that's a little closer to Hughes street or a little farther Hugh Street cover covered by vegetation which happens to be a shower we've we've done pools covered sufficiently with vegetation and you know the applicant has suggested more vibrant plannings around it for screening maybe if she could come up with some sort of a plan to establish such screening and then give it to the Review Committee well again this is just conceptual she needs to go to uh anyway certainly do that said I've said my piece well there's a there's yet another option of tbling this until you have the landscape plan so that we could we could have a final approval rather than well I think she I think she needs to have be helpful for her to have zoning approval knowing that the HPC has granted conceptual approval to her project and I have no problem in the conceptual approval as we condition them for it to say that it it must be accompanied by an extensive Landscaping plan to minimize the view of The Shed from Hugh Street we could do that as part of an conceptual approval do I have a motion I think Jim just made a motion apparently there's public comment s to be oh public comment public comment sorry pretty extens hi I'm Beth AER from 637 hu Street and I want to commend the Dempsey on all the work they've done and their willingness to stick to every standard oh I mean give them a lot of credit a lot of patience if you come I hope that every single person on this committee comes and stands to see exactly what it is they want to do stand there and look at that Garden that they have and just picture the shed extended looking exactly as the shed is now and as you stand there kindly look to your left and tell me how this is not that's an increase and that's different not an addition to the landscape it's a different issue the streetcape what's to the left a statement what's to the is different and not appropriate but their Landscaping is outstanding and it simply improves the streetcape it's beautiful that's it thank you thank you I'm sorry could you could you spell your last name Bev haer h k r any other comments do I have a motion I I I would make a motion to Grant conceptual approval to this application and um as part of that conceptual approval um I would condition it that um in addition to the application as proposed that It Be companied by an extensive Landscaping plan um which is designed to minimize the view of the shower from Hugh Street and and and so that would be the motion and when this was when this comes up for final you you would resubmitting that Landscaping plan I'll second that motion by Mr test is seconded by Miss Wilson strick Mr copelan um I continue to have a problem with this I think the the building is is historically accurate and beautiful I think a shower facing Hugh Street is not appropriate no Mr yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bson stck yes Mr hammerin no thank you so we have 42 it carries it carries it carries so thank thank you all I appre very much your consideration thank you you're very well keep up the good work that was painful okay finally back to GC Ventures LLC 314 clag Horn Place block 1031 lot 6364 not rated hello hello we kept your seats warm you did you did I speak so eloquent I want to follow that act um so we had submitted a um review uh for our SE we're trying to bring this baby to birth that we've built at 314 clag horn and Mr Brittain came out for the co and had identified a few areas that he was concerned with and recommended that we come to the HPC for your approval I'm sorry can you just give me your names both of your names Paul Grena gr would you speak into the Mike please Grena gr and Neil Clancy CLA A and C Y and that is the G and the C sorry yeah just because it was a no worries thanks any who um so we had submitted the review and then were asked to come for in person so hence we are here um a brief background of the property it's been going on since 8121 uh we purchased the property we met with Mr copelan during Co days of zoom and we're asked to do a modern interpretation of a classic Kate May Style uh we chose a bungalow Style with a Craftsman uh bent to it um we were recommended to put a dormer in the upper portion of the roof line which we did um we on our own decided that though approve the ledg stone cast stone wall which eventually has gone away from your standards which was approved we changed on our own to Brick thinking that would be a more attractive option um so we point is that we have tried hard to comply with everything that might fit in HBC um we live in a historic home on in our hometown so we're very sensitive to these things um on our application we have a wooden fence on a retaining wall and then we have a pool enclosure fence are in question for Mr Brittain number one um which one was we could do the pool enclosure so the pool enclosure we use the U uh a black aluminum fence um that is a match to our railings which were approved by HPC um and the enclosure is a contiguous run from our uh handrail down to um our back what would be our backyard we went around the neighborhood to look at other homes in the area to ensure that this was something that was present and in fact it was uh at the time remember we were still dealing with 2002 um guidelines and since then we've seen other fences that of this material approved so we felt very comfortable with that choice um I will interrupt I'm sorry but at the time we had to make the choice for um the construction to continue without interruption um and I'm not this is not excuse my mother was Ill she passed away two weeks later he had open heart surgery um so I had to make decisions over the phone via and it was a very tenuous time um but with the other fence Styles around um there was no intentional misrepresentation of our materials um always from the beginning assumed that the fence was a wooden structure sitting on top of a retaining wall as per a fence as the fence diagram shows on the construction plans and the pool fence was a pool fence when I met with defense companies I told them the exact same thing I just told you the only thing they showed me was Aluminum Fences I didn't know there were other pool enclosures pool fences so that was the reason you see two different fence Styles and it had to be compliant with the International Swimming Pool and Spa code which was the fence that we chose where we went out of our purview a little bit apparently unbeknownst to us was that we did relocate the fence my fault um in the backyard for two reasons one is that we have an exterior elev door and we felt that that should not be open to the public and we wanted to include that within the fencing and hardscaping that went to the elevator that should have been enclosed and then more importantly for us um we have dogs and if they come out the elevator we did not want them blowing out into uh Cape Harlan and so therefore they would be met by a fence which they have been um so for these reasons um we have the fence that we have which you have pictures of which you know doing the modern interpretation of a classic style we felt that this really fit beautifully it looks beautiful um and in our opinion of course but we have pretty good taste so I it's where we'll stand there so we'll start with that one I guess so I guess we're asking permission and forgiveness at the same time to keep what we have and that style just so you guys are clear we we don't take into consideration how we got here um and appreciate the context but so you know we just review whether it's appropriate or not sure do the enforcement side we'll leave that to guys like Bruce so you know is the material that's there that you're proposing is that is that appropriate that's the question for this board well I I agree with you other than when the approved plans were submitted there was no material listed um so just we're just we didn't have a dictum that said it had to be wood or it had to be whatever we still have standards that applied at the time for the materials that the type of materials that could correct that that's what they're going to be reviewing I'm just pointing out to you guys we're not going to hold it against you no I I nor do I expect a problem but but um in the 2002 guidelines there are pictures of appropriate fences and inappropriate fences and on the appropriate side there are metal P fences and so that's all we didn't go too far out comments I'm just a little bit confused are we just here for a pool fence so there's three things he mentioned do you want us to do all three and then yes well the the aluminum fence being installed was one um yeah that part I got clearly and the fence location was two the moving the location of the aluminum fence so that's all that was the aluminum fence the third thing was the wooden fence that sits on the retaining wall the height of that fence which we are going through with zoning um we didn't understand you want to take this one yeah the so one of our friends recommended since we're here anyway you already approved the cedar you already approved the brick um but the ratio would change because our mason built our wall too low and so we had to compensate for the six foot that were allowed by adjusting the wood I'm sorry are you saying that this application also needs to go to Zoning for uh well well we'd be doing a variance for well we we're getting final zoning of our Co our final o after this zoning it's very hard to tell with Bruce fence um maybe it's just the hour you've marked this as a final application and for the HPC Well it can't be if you still have zoning action to take place well if you all approve your end of it it's hard to tell which hat Bruce was wearing when he said these things do you guys need a variance for the height of your fence do you need a variance for the location of the f fence is no not the not the location for the height of the fence yes but then but that's the only we thought height was not part of so the moment it's not so so just to explain to you guys the process it when when you say an applicant any applicant comes in and says hey we're gonna we have to go to the planning board we have to go to the zoning board we only review for conceptual at that point and we may give a letter to the the zoning uh board to say we reviewed it for conceptual this is what we think subject to them reviewing it for things like location setback height perfect and then if assuming you get that you come back for final and say hey here's a cut sheet which could be in review um it would be probably a truncated presentation on something like this once you get to that point but if you're telling us that you need a variance for this the elements that you're going for any one of them this is where we were didn't understand where Mr brittain's Hat Which hat he was wearing the fence height is a zoning issue HPC so he called it out in not getting our permanent CO as an HPC isue which we don't understand why that fence Heights fence well because he he he can he can do two jobs he what he's trying to do is figure out where you need to go for the approval because we we can't say you know the setback for your fence is fine that's a zoning issue what we can say what we can say is the material for that fence looks good or looks bad for under the standards and then you have to go get the other answer part of that answer from zoning officer or zoning board so we we will certainly do that right now we're talking about the enclosure let's let's back up a bit because I I think we're I think we're off track I'm just trying to figure out what kind of an application what kind of an application we have well where we are is you have approved in um 2022 to have a cedar solid board with picket top cap rail fence the motion says cedar fencing solid board with picket top and cap rail correct there is nothing here about metal fencing um so you received appropriate approval March 3rd 2022 and you built whatever you wanted and now you come back before us and you want us to change our prior approval to accommodate would you will willly built something different well respectfully we did build this picture is the cedar fence on the retaining wall there's nothing in here about metal fence at that time at that sorry at that time did the application include a fence for a pool it's at pool fence okay so so the so what with no material specified well we're going to assume it's all Cedar I mean you made an application with a material sheet that says you're going to be using Cedar for all your fencing and in fact you used Cedar for part and you use metal for a pool do I have that right the pool enclosure yeah that's on our application is a separate entry which did not include the material the fence diagram is the fence that was put on the perimeter of the property and was not included in the pool diagram which is under number 34 point something or other that says pool and Clos I beg to differ this is a new 2 and 1 half story residence with pool freestanding garage then you get to the material list fences Cedar solid board with picket top and cap Rail and then you look at the resolution it's a cedar fence there's no metal fence you were approved for cedar fence you built something different it wasn't approved and and I'm just trying to figure out whether that application dealt with a perimeter fence that was approved in all Cedar or a perimeter and a pool fence fences on on the site plan there's a differentiation it has fence and pool fence um and the pool fence was never materials were never specified I honestly and yeah I honestly did not think that the cedar was appropriate there that it was a metal fence but okay you can you can do revision that's all you like um the approval by the HBC was for C fence and if on our construction plan on the front page of the construction you can see the fence diagram it's a cedar fence sitting on top of the retaining wall and it says clearly underneath it fence diagram whereas the two sections we're talking about where the metal is right now says pool fence I what you yeah I don't think anybody's arguing you with the perimeter fence that you did in Cedar in accordance with the permission you got correct okay so so that's that's not an issue in my mind in my mind is the second fence the pool fence which you didn't specify and which you then went and built in aluminum or metal or whatever you put it in right and you had effectively a deficient application because you didn't specify what you were using and so what you got permission for was all wood and and and I would interpret that as saying all fences all wood and I think that's what the Chairman's telling you that's what it's all fences all wood so now we're faced all fences all wood I'm sorry I didn't well it's in the res it's in the resolution so in other words from the city's perspective we because it's contained in there and if you didn't specify it we would expect to see the city would expect to see all wood so then we we have to stick to the resolution so it could be a five so five foot fence that the resolution calls for even though Mr Britain is saying we need a four- foot fence but the resolution also says five foot fence we don't do we don't do five foot six foot we do materials and placement all right but hpc's resolution says a five foot fence it it may have but what you can't get you can't get zoning approval from the HPC you get zoning approval from the zoning officer and the zoning board understand can I can I can I make a suggestion I don't understand go get get whatever zoning approvals you need and and if you wish to come back and ask us to modify our resolution by putting an aluminum fence try that that's that's my suggestion I'd rather not have them rip out the aluminum fence if they I don't know why not well why are we here with standards making um approvals having dialogue having public have a videoed we approve a wood fence they put in a metal fence then we're supposed to approve it sounds is sounding respectfully that we did it intentionally and we did not do it intentionally I'm I'm making that clear we did not do it intentionally our understand diagam I'm offended not not excusing not excusing your behavior which is really irregular for for the way you did this and I understand you had personal circumstances that were were perhaps um clouding your judgment but this is an irregular way to proceed and I I for one would would think of this me as as being able to weigh this um as as if you came to us with a request to do a metal fence for the pool I know it's different than what we approved I disagree I understand we disagree wait a minute if if if we had approved the two story house and they built a three-story house then we're supposed to approve it no Warren I I don't think so I think I think that a fence is is is a minor thing compared to a house and and we we if if they if the if the pool material for the fence is appropriate and they came to us like that originally were we to approve it I think we might approve it now I understand there's a transgression here uh I mean I I apologize for it well I know but that doesn't that doesn't mean that we're you know that means that anybody else can try and pull the same thing all right and I and it has happened um and and there are cases where people are fined there are cases where people have to pull down their original materials because they built their skyscrapers Too Tall but but the fact is um you have a non-compliance here with what your permission was well the metal fence that you have used is not is very different than any metal fence that we've ever approved in the downtown you know if you look around at things historically uh you know our neighbor just neighbor got like 27 pictures I'm not going to bore you with back in March and Terry's fence next to us is the same ever be approved by this board our Conrads um down you just approved in March umum the one on Windsor one Congress Congress we live at plor congress's here we just did the Conrad's Al offense Gino and let's not make no I'm just saying but we had precedent surrounding us I also don't recall approving it and so if you want us to go out like Vigilantes and find find that they did something wrong sure but we can we can do this one of two ways we can put this to a vote in which case it's going to lose we do that could we have at least as part of it a recommendation cuz if I'm gathering from the smell at least from Warren that you're not going to agree to this so can we at least have some guidance on we we have this situation it is completely in our backyard it fits a modern interpretation of a classic Kate May style these identical railings to are railings that were approved by HPC so you did approv metal already which confuses confused us and Ergo putting a wood fence adjacent to that I think would look terrible and from the sight line you can't see it from the street so we're talking about a completely backyard fence so I'm very confused by why this is as big an issue as it's obviously is so I would need to know how to proceed because I think once you see it and kind of get a feel for it you'll understand that this is not as perhaps as egregious or inappropriate as it might sound well it the it's a new non-cr ruting structure right correct brand new okay so it's brand new building non-contributing correct in the historic district correct and I think Jim's suggestion of get getting it straight with the zoning and then come back with us for the materials and if you want to stick with what you've put there you can ask for that we might come back and say that was never our understanding that that was going to be that because we're looking at an application that say said Cedar Wood fences and we have in the past just had to make some people back off take a prod product away I mean we've we we've made people take up a whole false pathing that was uh you know not what they had in their thank you and we've heard of these stories and Zoning doesn't the zon's only concern is the height of the cedar not not intend not worried about sure we're we're we're just really trying to buy you a little bit of time okay so you can do your zoning thing and then come back zoning zoning is is not involved I don't understand said it was which is why this is concep is Bruce Britain is is looking at what is built and what was approved Bruce Britain is the zoning officer but he's also the compliance officer for us for us so there this is not a zoning issue I'm sorry the reason that this is checked as final is that they didn't think and I heard test Tony here saying that they thought they needed zoning board approval that's what I heard for the for for for for cedar fence for the cedar fence height in the back because it may exceed the height Li and still Bruce Britain yeah same person because of the wall correct right the wall was was C for 2 feet and it came out to be one and a half and so we we I asked Mr Britain where do I need to cut the fence he wouldn't tell me where to cut it he said you have to cut it down to 4T that's what the PL call for but then that gives us less than a six foot total screen which is discriminatory um I would I said I would cut the fence to the six foot height total and he refused to tell me where to cut it so we realized you're not the height police so we're not going to torture you with that we'll we'll have sort that out but I will say that and again not sure what hat he was wearing he did ask us to come here first he from he was wearing a zoning hat but he is also the compliance correct and and this organization is part of the zoning ordinance so I mean you're you're trying to complicate something that's not complicated you had approval to build a wood fence you built a metal one fix it can I just ask for a clear a clearance here now did your plans call for the metal rail fence that we see on the house yes the metal railing metal railings they were approved I can't remember everything that happened railing were appr on the resolution it says doesn't make any difference but that that doesn't mean that that railing and uh the same material can be used for the fence around the property or around the pool that's the total of the fence that we're talking about it's only that picture is see in total yeah um but but the pool fence if if you see the front page of the construction drawing it says fence dire diagram and the cedar fence only sits on a retaining wall we understood it as that area the pool fence is a different entity and when I went to the fence company and said we need a cedar fence to go on the retaining wall and we need a pool fence I was shown metal fences I wasn't shown anything any any fence that meets the requirements of guarding a pool is a pool fence and it can be made out of wood as well as metal live and learn correct in the SM I think unforunately appreciate the aesthetic I mean you have mentioned the word aesthetic tonight many times and I think the aesthetic of that view is that that is the aesthetically pleasing look a wooden fence would feel a little prison-like um and it wouldn't match I don't know how to make a wooden fence look modern there um and that's my real hesitancy because I was trying very hard to do the modern interpretation a wooden fence would look quite silly where it is and I'll be go on record as saying that it will not look appropriate it will be aesthetically pleasing and I would like anyone to come out and tell me otherwise when they see it and that's just because we are not a contri prop question our standards are quite clear the the standard is clear it's horse dist District it's a wood fence you had a wood fence approved you presented a wood fence to us we approved it so install it I I make a motion that we accept this application as presented I'd like to ask a question please before we act on that I just want to make sure I understand one thing from y'all um the way I understand first of all we we approved clearly a wooden fence and it's a perimeter fence is the way I understand it is that correct from the application wood fence wood fence and so it has not perimeter wood fence I I understand but I'm saying it it was intended and I believe the drawing you gave us was that it was intended as a perimeter fence correct is that correct yes which which we could so that was along this brick wall yes comes around the side and back of the house connects to the house presumably or something and it's supposed to be a wood fence so many feet high you know you have to be determined by Between the the two materials okay that's what was approved end of the story um you know if you are now coming back and saying well you know yes we can we can work with that perimeter fence with a wood fence all the way around just like you we just like we submitted and you approved with the exception of we want to make a a slight movement here so that we cover that elevator don't want the dog to come out and get outside the fence I completely get that I mean to me that's that's where our approval stops and ends right there now the now the question is if you have a wood perimeter fence all the way around the the property including the pool are you even going to see the if you now want to put a metal fence in just around the pool why don't let me just say something real quick if you look at the drawing or picture I should say this picture that garage that is the only piece of metal fence all the rest is contained by the wooden brick wall then that's clearly not what we accepted I mean I think I think you have the problem of having to remove that part of the fence because the perimeter fence but we could also add we could also add the wooden fence from here over and you wouldn't see it from the street um that was which we didn't put up because car door damage um understand guess what I'm trying to get to is if you if you want to put a metal fence on the perimeter of your property you have a problem you clearly have a problem correct we did not approve that correct we kept if you want to put up a perimeter fence and how you define that perimeter I guess you know in that previous application then then that's okay you've got the approval for that I mean it's got to you got to get this height thing figured out but but by large you've got a perimeter fence that's let's just say six feet high okay and no metal fence should be outside that perimeter correct correct the perimeter if you want to now put a metal fence in inside the perimeter just like around the pool kind of a thing then that's screened by the perimeter wood fence and I would suggest you just go to zoning if that's what you have to do or come back here with a new application that says we just want to put in this small metal fence around the pool could I could I just interrupt because I we're going nowhere here's the application it's a wood fence right it's a wood fence you look look through this whole thing it's a wood fence what's the date onal what I'm simply saying is any metal outside the perimeter fence is wrong correct and none of it yeah the metal is not outside the perimeter now it's all contained in in the foot of the house going straight back to the property I I'm going to make this very simple from my standpoint I'm sorry your house is in here so yes you're allowed to put up a wooden fence around the perimeter that's what you asked for that and that's what's up okay so now that's up right and and I don't care if you know this chunks out if the wood fence goes this way and you have a pool that sits here and you just want to put a metal fence around that pool on the inside of your perimeter fence which is wood correct I guess I would ask you to come back and just say we want to put up a second fence because we've complied with the first piece I I think that's sort of where I was going that's that's we what's presented that's what that's what I'm trying to figure out I mean the pool is within the wood fence there's the pool here's the fence right it's just between the garage and the house that there needs to be enclosure so no one can fall into the pool and it should be wood it should be wood this this picture but that's not on the perimeter that's that becomes your perimeter if I think I think a motion's been made I don't know if second I don't know if it's been seconded but I will second the motion yeah am I crazy I'm not sure we are point the button I think any anything that encloses this property is wood it's just that simple right yeah it's all wood yeah I agree that is outside that is not approved there's no dispute we agree with you so not only not okay I'm sorry I don't want to talk over Chairman's got the floor there's a motion to approve this plan as submitted and it we can get into all kinds of gymnastics but there was no metal fence approved they built something else now they want approval I made a motion that we accept this as presented and I seconded the motion motion by Mr copelan secreted by Mr Testa Mr copelan no Mr Carol no Mr Stevenson's recused Mr Testa no Miss Wilson strk no Mr hammeron no thank you I'm so to change what is present do we need to submit I assume appliation appliation yes okay yes to make sure that you know that that's not accepted by the HPC so you can make an alternative proposal correct and I just wanted to add one little piece the layout and you mentioned about you understood with the elevator does anyone have an issue with that change as opposed to going from the garage over including the the elevator I'd like to see it on the plan I will yeah I will I don't want to waste the architect's time make make an application for a pool fence as you desire to make it okay well you've heard it that's why okay okay thank you thank you next order of business Waxman 931 corgy street block 1093 lot 11 contributing shed door fence exterior shower concrete walks and patios seem seems to be fence night Gary Waxman co-owner 931 corgy welcome to the warm and fuzzy HBC gets warmer by the Night by the minute and and it's it's fence night tonight it's definitely fence night okay take it away all right we were here on September 16th uh and we were asked to bring back some cut sheets or um specifications for materials that we had not presented then uh my wife Miriam I believe you went to a review meeting and presented those materials couple weeks ago so as far as I remember um we were asked to put uh horizontal wood siding on our shed and we have since submitted the cut sheet or the specs for that for Cedar which would match uh both the material and the pattern on our house which is contributing um we also provided reddish pavers either brick brick or block pavers and also provided the location of those pavers in a diagram which would be in the front of the house uh from the sidewalk leading up to the front steps and also at the end of the driveway leading to the rear of the property where there is a cottage and behind the house um adjacent to our wooden deck we also provided specifications for uh wood frame storm SL screen doors U two two of those three of those rather um as well as uh we added I believe we added front door specifications as well which will be wood uh none of the materials will be will be mo you know to attempt to Dem modernize essentially would you just to refresh my memory that one this proposed shed wasn't there a a zoning issue or we we have a zoning issue it was it was the old shed was torn down because of rot and mold we built the shed of wood in the exact same spot U we have a zoning issue because of the size and shape of the lot and the fact that there's a cottage in the back it's nearly impossible to um build that or locate that anywhere on the property according to current code that's our officer indicate that you need to go to the Zone board for release to rebuild the shed we recently received a denial uh uh from uh from Bruce okay uh so we I believe we'd have to apply for a variance on that and have you applied are you in the process of doing that not not yet we just received the denial I want I need to speak to him because I want it was very non-specific as to the reasons so I want I wanted to I wanted to get a little bit of information so that we can figure out what we might what our options might be so I mean this isn't the zoning board butre you probably have a setback issue there but you just need to talk to Bruce about that but for our purposes the best best that we could do tonight is a conceptual approval because it sounds like you need to go Z that that would be fine we're we're we we obviously can't start with the hammer and nails until we get the zoning approval so I've just checked the two things that we're missing called conceptual and application requires zoning board approval well I'm marking the the conceptual right but I'm still you've already removed the shed correct and now um you're proposing to build a new shed on that same site out of wood correct you're replacing the front entance door and the screen door is all wood yes you're removing the chain fence and you're replacing it with wood fence yes neighbors yes and the wood shower that's that's already there right it's partially built not not completed partially two two of the three panels are there so that was stop Bruce stop Bruce stop yep that is also wood Cedar so this is conceptual it's all it's all wood um you may you have some issue with zoning which means you'd have to come back here assuming you they don't approve something um but for tonight the issue is for this commission whether we would approve all wood fence all wood shed things of that nature correct that's our understanding yes and wood screen doors pavers okay and you've you've provided in here we talked about I think the board talked about last time showing where you proposed to do the pavers it's not going to be the whole thing it's on behind the fence and you have a colored copy we did yeah yeah exactly okay just noting that for the record yes this August group have any questions about this application I move we give it conceptual approval subject to the zoning board's approvals it's it's it's just conceptual approval the zoning board does what it does right the question is whether we put any other recommendations or conditions on the conceptual and I'm was I just had something about the shed and I'm trying to remember what it was excuse me open please the shed is has been torn down I'm I'm sorry I me the new shed and it's going it's it's proposed to be a wood shed going into the same place but but Bruce is taking exception to that um and so they need a variance I understand that part to what I'm saying deciding discussion was when we assumed the deal old shed was still there and siding it so that it would be getting getting past the old shed which is now gone to the new shed which is proposed in need zoning board approval for variance my question is is this proposed to be the new shed yeah for a that that shed it's not a very accurate diagram if I may just State this I believe that although I I realized it was after the fact you all voted o with a with an approval of the root destruction of the old shed at our last meeting I don't know if that's that that's in the minutes and that we had indicated and I believe it's Mr hamran had suggested the siding as a the S siding so we we'll have the same siding material the Cedar uh I believe it's the same size identical to what's on our house as well and it'll be painted to m as well that was the intent the intent of that was that the the structure resemble the house it would be the same cons material so we're not so that is not the shed that we're approving but right well if we're going to motion has been made to give this conceptual approval and with respect to the other materials and improvements and additions I have no problem um I would condition the conceptual approval though to a shed that is more appropriate than this shed did before yeah well a plan we need it yeah the shed is an 8 by 12 it's t111 I wouldn't not vote for a shed that looks like no it does it's not really going to it's not really going to look like that what you're getting see is a conceptual approval conceptual approv is a short thing that advises we've done this on a preliminary basis and you need to go to the zoning board when you get that and come back for your final approval um you would work on the condition conditions of our conceptual if we gave any and that's what you would make as part of your final and one of those conditions would be the submission of plans for an appropriate a shed that's appropriate to a contributing structure I don't how I can't design it for you but I know that's not it it I I I think aren't the specifications in there they're in here yeah I want to see what it looks like the the horizontal sighting is in your application it's just that the picture is the old picture of the Home Depot shed with the with the wrong kind of clapboard it's the vertical yeah I would say you need to provide a new cut a new cut sheet or cut sheets of the shed that you're proposing showing indicating all the materials of the windows the doors the wood you know the siding um and the roofing material so that we can we can see that it it emulates the house that's really the the part of that okay yeah the only picture you have is that one right there which is it's not a good representation yeah well what what they're looking for kind of like the diagram before is Google Images sheds with horiz you know like horizontal signing or something like that well we can take come and come up with a cut sheet that is not this because the board is indicating this is not something they would be in favor but what is this he does have the right I mean is this what you're planning the that's the sding that's the sding we're going to that's the right materi okay over the so the texure 111 all right so the did you make the motion there's a motion on the floor it wasn't seconded so let yes it was seconded oh it was seconded motion B Mr Carol seconded by Miss Wilson strick it sounds like it's conceptual conditional upon revised shed plans okay well that's good enough for me this is the okay all right yes Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes can I just say something sure I think I I would I wouldn't in the middle of vote if I were you I wouldn't Mr Stevenson Beauty and not saying too much Mr Testa yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammerin yes okay thank you now you can say something if there's anything you're confused on this is a good time you can make a sketch of the your shed yeah we we actually have a picture it we can do better we can give you a picture of it because it's partially built you'll get a good idea so when you come in for your final approval it's the shed you're going to build yeah yes okay so are we good with the papers and the fence and the height and all that yep y time to go home is that it yeah but you're not good with the shed yet okay I would say you're batting about about 800 this all lies with with uh zoning really yeah thank you you okay okay app next order of business is Hammerman 1010 Washington Street I've heard of that guy block 1110 lot three this a contributing property porch post railings and trim excuse me take time thank you good luck good night all right want a B I see that I'm debating about whether we really want to even do this tonight oh well oh W this is uh so I have a a house that was built in approximately 1880 it is the third house up from uh Madison on wa on Washington it's the teal house right next to the Hoffs which was the White House just renovated heavily our house has been um we we've done a lot of work actually EX on the exterior restoring it back to the original 1880 conditions to the best of our knowledge the porch is original um and the reason we've come to that is we can fig we've seen pictures dating back into the 40s that show it exactly as it is now um and we had the contractor our contractor take apart a couple of the columns just to see what was the underlying material and some of them have been repaired but the original material still still is in there so we're pretty convinced it's it's 1880s um and what we simply have is we've got some dry rod in the spindles um the posts on the porch uh as I said some have been repaired already but um they are essentially a 4x4 um up right that's then clad in Wood around it and trim with some trim on it and things like that um what we what we're the mahogany floor actually is fine uh the underly on the floor is fine the roof appears to be fine so it's really just the posts and the spindles that we're we're focusing on at this point so the heart of this is to uh replace the spindles and repair or replace the posts as needed including the trim around the posts um we intend to use all wood material we intend to use periods appropriate material we will replace the spindles as close to as is as we can get them um if we we're we're actually pricing two different Vehicles one is if we could get a whole section you know of the fence and just replace it the in the spindles as is um or the other is to actually um uh hand cut the spindles themselves and see which ones the better price go from there um so that's the heart of it um so while we're at it we figured we would come and get approval for two different things as well one is we have non-conforming Shutters on the house they are just you know I think they're actually some kind of a vinyl material screwed onto the on the outside of the house we want to go to working shutters Allwood construction um with period appropriate Hardware so they would close um we have a big double window on the first floor single windows on the second uh those would have to fold and then you know fold again to come in um you know we will go right to the appropriate you know look and material on on on those with so they would be all wood shutters and we' also actually like to add a little bit of a I'll call it a gingerbread look to it it's a um Gothic Revival um so we want to stick to that's why we're sticking to the spindle look um and what we would do is do small trim on the underside of the roof around the porch that emulate that matches the uh spindles on the porch itself and probably do the same thing under the peak on the front of the house so in the cut sheets I don't exactly have who we're going to get these from but there's the cut sheet for the the uh shutters so you can see what what that would look like um these came from architectural Depot which is one of the vendors that we have under consideration they have a spindle that is very close to what we have it's not exactly the same but it's close um and so those are those are those and then I actually warn uh and I reviewed this for me just to you know the application just say am I missing anything and let me just pass this out here's another example of that spindle work from a group called vintage Woodworks show right thank you so this is exhibit I took me a little while to find a company that had that matching gingerbread trim and um and so this this does have it there in that picture so you can see it's it's it's essentially identical to the uh the spindles that would be on the porch itself the only difference of course being if they're in the peak then they have a 45 degree angle so that they they go like this you know go up okay that's it I don't think I have anything else that you know I need to ask for approval on I just wanted to make sure I had everything covered and uh thank you I spent some time with this and um um we look closely at at the porch I'm supportive of um what is being presented we did not talk about and I'm not supportive of the spindles on the eaves um the spindle this small spindle on the top of the porch railing I'm supportive of it's in this picture here did you right there yeah did did you yeah pass it down this this treatment is appropriate for for the house I I believe um and I would be supportive um Kevin you and I just didn't talk about the I understand the the EES I I wouldn't is there another type of trim that is appropriate to it I because I'm open to the discussion I just don't I'd like to see some some sort of just you know kind of aesthetic enhancement to that um can I can I make a suggestion I'm if I can um there's two houses on Jackson Street that have that type of a spindle across the top and is horizontal not in any kind of a curvature system uh and that was in the kind of stick style construction period one of them is right on the corner of decer and a Carpenters Lane with the belly porch coming out and the other one is right across the street from the Virginia on two stories and they have the spindles at the top are about half the size of the spindles at the bottom uh I think the spindles at the top would look big higher than what you're seeing in comparison um I hope these spindles are going to look a whole lot heavier than what I'm seeing down here uh you know some of the new on we have are very delicate looked like a toothpick that got put through the the LA yeah yeah soin delicate really this picture of your Nextdoor neighbor's house right that's our next door neighbor your next door neighbor's house is quite similar to yours I would argue that the posts on his house are also quite similar to yours it looks like he added some kind of architectural embellishments on his own however I think that supports the evidence that your porch may have also had some kind of embellishment above this feature on your posts so I would look around town because this is a pretty standard Gothic Revival house you've got the twin windows in the Gable are matching so if you can find one that you think has the original that would be good it would be good to have a model from somewhere else in town and and Tom has made a good suggestion but I think the house next door shows evidence of more M than your porch it does frequently taken off because people didn't want to paint right for sand especially spindles I think he painted that house maybe three years ago or two years ago and and that was on there at the time so I don't I can't speak to that but I've never seen anything like that but Peak was added though I believe and again I'm I'm you know I the spindled top on the porch makes sense to me and it would it would emulate the spindles on the porch itself and they would just be smaller you know um they are I will say for the record they are delicate spindles they really are um but I I I hear that i' like to make them as large as I can make them obviously so they're solid and not going to get damaged in any way the spindles versus the other gingerbread the spindle period was a little bit later kind of came into that Queen and period uh in the 1880s and 90s yeah all those periods hit here a little bit later than they did in other areas but that's when you you you'll really see that I see yeah the houses on the on the block are actually almost of the same vintage because it recompense hand owned that area and he divided the land up between his children um ours is U sers which we think is is a an individual married into the family the white the white house the hofs was pedone everything else was a hand house um given that um Kevin is a member uh of the HBC and we we look for something that could be approved in review normally um something like this I think um but because he's a member I think it's appropriate to come before the full board and in public so so there's no hint favoritism or something if we could approve the conceptual idea um and then um have the details thrashed out the review um it sounds to me like there will have to be a final submission because all this stuff isn't worked out but I don't see any problem in granting it final review with with submission as a condition to the Review Committee of what turned ultimately to be the right spindles and the right size so I I would make a motion to Grant this application final review um but the review would be conditioned on submission to the Review Committee of the um the materials excuse me of the of the spindle designs that we've been talking about yeah I I think we can emulate pretty pretty closely so and of course all be wood and and of chis you'll have to not be part of the Review Committee reviewing your own spindles that's my motion I'll second motion by Mr Testa seconded by Mr Carol Mr Copeland yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Stevenson Mr Tesa yes Miss Wilson stck yep thank you thank you um open to the public I think I think they were here largely um except for one member there's a there's a um discussion about rap um signage um I'm I had a conversation with um Jody at the mac and they've been campaigning the Mac has been campaigning to have the U that large electric box near the trolley stop top painted um it's continually scratched it's it's not very pleasant looking and um uh it's it's a city-owned he evidently met with somebody from the city who said yeah I'll do something um he has asked if we would consider and I shared with him not for approval but a for dialogue he had asked if we would consider a u a vinyl wrap on that box I've seen these vinyl wraps you can look it up on your phone um or or an iPad or something the the vinyl wrap is generally is a little bit artistic and it what has a geometric design you could also have it custom made so not with advertising but you could have a custom made that would show like one side the physic estate and another side the uh the World War II Museum and another side the lighthouse and so and they would be willing to U do that upgrade at their expense to accommodate the business model and I shared with him um that I would as I said not for approval but I would share share it tonight as a reaction of doing something like that you know I basically you see it on buses all the time where they wrap them with names of universities and advertising but my recollection is that particular building was donated by the building the building this is not the building okay now what is the little ticket thing this is the electric box that's over by the bo I thought you meant the little building the trolley stop okay where the Washington Street yeah where the the trolley sits on no it's a big metal sidewalk me mounted box that's what would you say like 4 by3 maybe so so we're talking about wrapping a metal box yeah okay just to make it a little bit more attractive and more pleasing and we're and we're doing this under the streetscape view or would be doing it I mean and it's it's a Mac proposal C well before they go to all the trouble of of of just a minute oh before they go to all the trouble of of figuring it out and ordering or getting costs and all that the question is what would the HPC reaction be how big is this thing Mark it's it's this right this this box right here on the corner yeah where the trolley stops it's next to Victoria Towers okay it's bigger than a bread box so it's a thing with conduits and switches in it it's a metal box and they want to turn it into an advertising WAP not an advertisement we didn't talk about advertising I'm sorry this signage is ID type signage it has identification not signage a picture of the lighthouse okay that's signage to me but no written advertisement may I so this yeah I got it I've I've have no problem I mean on on a structure like that um the vinyl WAP I don't know if you would know the difference between a vinyl WRA if it's done the right way um but it has to be done the right way in the right fonts um you know there's two ways to to we had no discussion about writing we're talking about just just wrapping making that a bit more attractive um you you could um someone mentioned to me that there's a community that had um they they let it out to artists and a competition and then the artists painted it I I think that's going to just be a little overkill for this it brings more attention to it I think right now well well not only that but it's a it's a metal conduit box it's not a place for artists competition I mean I just think it's it's well the question is Street decoration you want to just leave it painted or would you entertain were were any entity to put a picture on there wouldn't trouble me at all is he looking at directing people to get onto the trolley at that point I mean no advertisement this is just to make this box less offensive wow I doesn't offend me to begin with but one way the least memorable box in that area Thee I mean we all recognized it when we saw but nobody can think of it my my personal opinion that color I think too my personal opinion for what it's worth is I i' certainly I'd entertain it I don't have any trouble with that I think the question is can it be removed and replaced if just through weather conditions and other things it starts to really you know deteriorate yeah so yeah I'd be okay with that so I recuse myself from this discussion well if that were the case I'd have to recuse myself it's just it's just a discussion it's a discussion Tom we're not taking action on this we want to probably stop I would like to provide some feedback so can they provide a like a sketch of what they'd want to put on there of photograph this conversation was before they go to that expense in that time if it's an absolute no then I I'll tell him that and we'll from for me for me it's a yes if appropriate in its artwork I don't get a v but for me it's not AST as it is if it's not going to serve purpose I don't see a reason to do anything you don't want to so you like it nice and just green plain green well it just goes away we don't know what we're looking at pyel apparently a lighthouse I must be having Communications problem tonight I never mind never mind I'm going to tell them no that you're not interested the idea was not to have a picture to look at the idea was would you even entertain a picture but never mind I would I'll tell them it it's no thank you next item HPC Awards that'll be fun pip oh my God it's not o' don't know if I'm still alive join the rest of us yeah okay so um I think everybody's been pretty familiar with this um that we've we met like a couple months ago and tried to think about what a historic preservation award program would be and um so we came up with some stuff and and today what I would really like to do what we would all like to have you do is to give us um just some guidance about what your opinion is of various sorts of things so um I've sent this out an email so I'm sure everybody's pretty familiar with it but um one of the things was does anybody have any ideas or would they like to add anything um to the award categories and the award categories that we had proposed um we we reviewed like I don't know probably 15 or 20 different historic preservation award programs so the typical awards are um that they would have some awards to do with buildings and structures and some awards to that would go like one award that would go to a person or an organization or something like that who had really contributed to Historic preservation so that that's one of W than pip can I interrupt because it's late but um did you did you receive my memo um yes um and the idea was we had I thought we had too many categories and too frequently that was your opinion are you are you addressing that kind of input tonight ask people what they would like to have for categories right and I'm trying to tell people what no I'm I'm a little confused about this um I kind of like to hear what pip has to say that but we already know well we've read it but that was a ball back I I think you're just kind of giving a little summary to get us into the discussion so if people would like to add anything to do with these categories one that would be for organiza an organization or person and four categories that would have to do with buildings um one of which would be new construction one of which would be preservation one of which would be um additions and um now I can't remember the Adaptive adaptive reuse what was it oh yeah adaptive reuse yeah adaptive reuse and then when we reviewed these things and and we um talked about it further we thought maybe add another category which what the organizations who give these calls as stewardship which is people who've just maintain their buildings for years and years we have a lot of people like that in Cap May so just people another one for people that would be stewards and we had proposed that there could be up to two Awards in a category if there were sufficient nominations or sufficient numbers of people that came through so we would even though these would be the categories they would not necessarily be awarded every single solitary year they would be awarded in a year that there was one to make an award to so there could be three Awards made in a year or two Awards made or there could be um more than that so if anybody has any any thoughts about the categories or you'd like to add some or you'd like to take some away or anything like that what what I'd like to do is um figure out how to regularize this you know how to regularize it on an ongoing basis like for example people write Contest rules i' I'd like to be sure that we set up this as a as a a way that we can go forward and and and to do more than a checklist I mean it would be it would be it would be a way that we would establish what will be categories who will police them from time to time I I think it needs considerable more discussion and and and thought this is the opposite of policing sorry it's the opposite of policing I just want to put that in there we do a lot of policing in this group and the whole idea of an awards is to recognize people doing the right thing right well as opposed to the things we see where people do the wrong thing what I'm saying is I'd like to see a an establishment whereby we set up something for the long term and and in the long term we set up rules so this isn't become the 2025 rules only was to do that but we did not want to do that without the input of people on the HPC so we thought people on the H they are HPC Awards okay that's where see that's that's where I get off the train okay I I think that and I I agree there should be system we should set them up there should be categories it should be probably administered by an ongoing part of this body but I think they should be HBC Awards and and those HBC Awards should be recognized by the city um for the Merit that they have but I think they ought to be done within and and and okay administered by the HBC to me this is an HBC function okay it's not a it's not a city function so do you do you have anything to say about what the categories would be do you care about those well I think no I think the categories you mentioned they worthy enough what what I'd like to do though is have um this go to the point where we can set up a um an official HPC committee to do this rather than just sort of go can I chime in a little bit with this because um we met as a subcommittee quite a few times and thank you pip and Janice for all of your hard work because you guys did wonderful wonderful work on this committee um we were looking at the best way to really get this out to really look at um showcase ing the HPC and we felt that we could do that if the council presents the award and highlights all the great things that the HPC is doing and that that's really the intent behind this something that would continue and I understand exactly what you're saying Mr Testa to to stand the test of time um but in order to do that you know there has to be some you know guidelines whether or not me being the crossover or whoever else is the crossover to this would you know start the process um you know and then at that point we would hold you know whether or not we're doing it at this time of year the we were looking at possibly in March having a celebration and presenting the awards but having the HPC and the judges those people really being highlighted and talk about the great things that this commission's doing and I think that that was always the intent behind what we were looking at um I I think we may disagree at the level at which this is done and and the reason I say that is because I think the city council is a political body it has political decisions to make it certainly recognizes the merits of what the HPC does but I other than endorsing an HPC set of awards I don't think these should be Awards made by the city council it's it's no no it's not going to be Awards made by the city council I'm sorry maybe you misunderstood what I was saying um the judges because of the hour yeah yeah but the judges would not not be any part of city council they would just be there presenting the awards um the second thing I I guess because this was a minute hang on this was something let me just finish my we just crossed over one issue you I'm so I don't I don't see city council presenting the award I I see the mayor showing up and making a speech but but I but I see it highlighting the HPC but we can we can highlight ourselves yeah but I don't think it's going to get the notoriety and also you take a look at what happened a few years ago the HPC did this and it I don't I don't even know what the year was when it stopped I don't know why why the awards stopped they stopped because because there was not continuity and regularity of administration and that doesn't depend on whether it's a council award or HBC award it depends on having the right rules and and the right people of course working on this I'm sure you have okay I would like to say something I've done a lot of events you remember the shunt show I ran the Poetry all that stuff events take a lot of work they take a team or they take somebody really crazy who's going to devote all their time I was that person I did it because of my own passion I have a feeling that the earlier HBC awards were done in the same way because frankly when you're on the HBC you're you're making a commitment every month to read these applications to take them very seriously to be sometimes the brunt of your neighbors and then to add on a new project that a member of the HPC is going to run every year that's very complicated I mean this is a pretty complicated project but it's a project that we need as an HBC because we don't get a lot of ECT aside from the wonderful people that we saw tonight who did their homes beautifully because they understand the value of historic preservation but historic preservation is kind of a hard sell I mean when Stephen presented the design standards to the Realtors at least half of them gave it a thumbs down that it's that they want to avoid or or or El elude preservation when they are uh selling a house so by having this institutionalized as a government function with the staff of government with a budget and having outside experts look at what we as a preservation commission have said here are the examples that we think are great this these are the our design guidelines fleshed out in real projects and to have people from outside of cap may look at them and make the awards as a city function is not a political job no I'm not saying it it's political I'm saying it it has political aspects coming from a city council what I'm saying is the HPC is the government as much as any other land use board is the government and I don't think so well it is I mean it's br into the law we're an Advisory Board absolutely not we make binding legal decisions but Jim we've totally untrue we've all decided that there's a there's a disconnect and I'm sure lorine will agree between the boards and the city and this is a way to sort of connect HPC with counil we I'm I'm sorry we there may be disconnects and they may happen from time to time but we have we have an advisor on Council which brings our matters to council we we have some um Le Aon role with the city as it is uh I I don't I don't think in fact I think the conditions for disconnect have been improving between us and the city I don't think that goes to the to the basic issue here the issue really is um are Awards a worthwhile thing to do and the answer is yes they are and and and in my mind the issue is who should weigh the merits of those things and how shall they be given and in my view that is an HPC function the HPC can capably do that and that doesn't mean Janice for example there can't be experts on the outside brought in it can't mean that that the HPC can't consult with people but I believe it's an HPC program it ought to be an HPC program we ought to set it up we ought to put the right rules in place and do it and and that means and that means having dedicated people inside the HPC who will um serve uh recognize this is probably going to be a very active committee and and needs active participation by at least two possibly three HBC members as we go forward I mean that's my view of how this goes I'm like again it's that they're going to the people who are going to reviewing it are going to be like historic experts but not from Kate May or the first level of review would be the HBC and well the first level of viiew is looking at everything and making sure that the projects comply they're complete and they're eligible we've started process and then the second level would be the HPC looking at all of them and making you know winnowing out the ones that that or selecting the best and then the final review would be say a panel of three expert judges architectural historians people like that from outside of Kate May who would decide who the winners are and then when that's announced that that it's kind of like the preservation New Jersey 10 most endangered or a National Trust award it has a much wider uh effect than if we keep this in inhouse I mean we've had so many fuzzy hearings like things where people don't quite understand what we're trying to tell them and this is something that could be very clear and done from a point that is confirming our work but also expanding it Janice can I add something just this is almost not a legal thing but it kind of is in the sense that Jim brought up which is that primarily this is a board that's making decisions on applications going forward the idea that but also you know promoting and evangelizing yeah Pres ation is one of the it's it's actually the last purpose under the municipal land use law and in our city code too is like promoting educating that kind of thing and I see this as a function of that but what you pointed out is HPC and the city or HPC acting is sort of like a gatekeeper for if these five projects were able to get award will we be we be okay with that are they eligible do they meet the standards and then leaving the ultimate decision and award up to you know kind of independent judge panel of Judges I think that provides a good framework and almost like it makes it less political Le takes the HPC out of it takes the city out of it um and you you have this independent panel uh making a a selection based on their expertise and based on the HPC saying you know what these are these These are pass the smell test and get to the point of being eligible forward and leaving that I think I'm off I'm off the train on that Chris I really am I'm I'm I'm off the train on it I I don't I don't think there's justification for going Beyond this body at this point I'd like to structure this so that we had the detailed Rules and Things that we're going to do to administer the awards I I I think that the promotion of what the HPC does can be done by us we're not I'm not stranger to writing press releases and dealing with the press and and dealing with the outside is the city a different body does it does it have um more um effective clout yeah in most ways it does but that doesn't mean that these Awards can't be dealt with internally well under that framework I just described it also doesn't prevent the HPC from setting up the rules of the board game so to speak so that any body well that would be my minimum I mean that would be my minimum that's what I mean I mean you here's the criteria here's the judging sheet like all those types of things it's it's like a board game you can just pass along to the next crew so that it's not stuck in somebody's head and then the awards die because nobody know how to do it and that's that could be even in that that framework where you decide the threshold and then move to the next one that could be part of it but but you know I think you know I know phase two is where we basically will review what's been suggested for the awards and I mean it so basically it's a blessing or an imprator uh for what's going to move forward but you know sometimes we have these experts that come in front of us and they argue against what we want to do to help get someone something that's not appropriate for the town so I mean if you're going to do this would have to be very careful with who these experts are and uh you know I think that the HBC just needs a little more teeth than a blessing some where along in the process toward the end I believe it's an HPC um award program should be done by the HPC we're the ones we were we look at all these files over and over we talk to people we know what the property looked like when it began we know what it looks like at the end and we're the ones that are setting up the end product and then we should be able to say who did the best job and I if you want to get somebody as I said in a letter somebody from the state to to uh participate in the final selection uh that kind of expertise but going outside getting experts first off oh we're going to have a financial issue because I don't know what expert is going to look at hundreds of files or something and determine who's the best by the time it goes to an expert there might be three choices few don't I mean I don't I think we ultimately there will be there'll be I I excuse me I think that that there's a lot of conflict of interest here or perceived conflict of interest and maybe that's because I come from a city I work in a hospital um etc etc but if the HPC is is awarding its own Awards to its own people that has has that they've reviewed the applications I think that that really is will will be P perceived by the public as a conflict of interests I agree who whoa whoa who that's not I don't think that's what's being said what what what Warren I think is saying is we have a large body of things we can call from that doesn't preclude Again by the rules that I don't know yet doesn't preclude going anywhere else I don't see it as a conflict of interest I see it as an exercise of expertise I really don't see we're conflicted maybe you can talk a little bit about I mean you had a lot more process because I've been part of this as well there's been four of us involved pip has done a lot of work I think she's organized a lot of the things you're asking about Jim Janice and I have spent two afternoons calling through two years of full commission applications great Janice has entered the mall into a database we have already called out things that we don't want to consider right um and so we've already started to I agree what you're saying is we've got a good start we've got a good start is what you're saying to me is what you're saying there's a good start I think there's a a good start you've got three people that made some effort to begin to sketch out the parameters um I I have a lot of thoughts about two too many awards and too many people and too frequently um I recall very clearly the last award that this body gave a ceramic award I won't say too much in public to diminish the person that the property that received it but we were struggling just to find somebody who deserved an award and finally we settled and we gave the the the cream of the crap um an award we then the next year we had no one and we decided not to give the award that we would pick it up and do it the next year and of course that resulted in never picking it up and never doing it what was the last year that the awards were actually given I tried to find that but I couldn't see it I I can a long time ago pred preds my two terms was before 2010 after what I just wait a minute guys I want to say before 2015 can can I can we just stop for a second cuz I just said we gave the last award W was we were pushing to find somebody that was good enough now if we start giving out the dates that person will know that well I don't think we have waren we we have been totally vague so anyway about about the it seems it seems like you've given us some framework you've given us a start I think we need an HBC award I think we should have a standing uh HPC uh uh Team to do this um and I would nominate uh someone and um I and Janice and and can can can I find out I mean we haven't heard from a few members here I'm just curious to see where everybody else is is on this I I'm sorry what was that no I uh I there's an awful lot of good ideas here yeah and I've been through so much of this award stuff on the different councils I've been on uh I really think trying to do this every year even every two or three years is a major undertaking you've also been watching how much could go into this uh I would suggest maybe since this coming year is 2005 if we said 2005 202 maybe a fiveyear intervals that gives you say a fiveyear period to really look at really good projects that took place um I've also seen the awards committee be a mixture of some board members and also some professionals so you know the professionals can kind of bring in the Big View where the PE people that actually know exactly what we're trying to do here what's so important to us and and people have followed our things um and I've also seen a lot of professionals that come in that don't do a whole lot of homework on the background of the applications and what these people went through uh you know they they get a they get a pile of applications like this and boy they really skim through them to try to see which is the prettiest and I'm not picking on because you know we don't generally don't pay them that much um I know right now on the cultural trust we only can give to three organizations so we say one year they were going to give money to the uh historic trust the next year the Arts Council the next year the uh uh historic commission you know so they they're all they fall into line to those years that they can come out but I I really think I would not try to say we're going to be doing this every year and I don't think Tom you can judge that all in advance no I I think it depends on the flow of the work the flow of who's who's who's meritorious and that's why I say having an ongoing process handled by people who are on the HPC will decide that it might be annually it might be every other year would be a great person to be the chair of that I I don't think so because I'm already overburdened with a lot of other work and I do put a substantial amount of time and be the chair well it's for the chair to decide who the chair is right I mean oh the chair okay no I would I would decide who the chair is it's awfully it's awfully early I mean it's this is a discussion well it it it's not too early though I think the there should be a standing committee should be a HPC standing committee pip thank you for your effort and you thank you for your work but it should be HPC members um I I would uh reach out and get some other people engaged for example I think Jake could be the leader um of a standing committee not just developing this further I think Janice could be on the on the team I think Lorraine would be on the team I think um Stephen um uh to get a new member perspective he's he's not here tonight but uh he's had to travel on business but I'd like to see Steve more involved and um it seems to me that a standing committee not just to finish the work that started but then to to continue um on into the future making sure that this happens I I I think we we've got a whole lot of ideas here but in fact I think the the the the dream is really nice and good I think it's too big for our little community and we have to make it more manageable but anyway but I mean you know I've had the pleasure of working with the whole committee was when we did the uh roll out of the new standards and I really enjoyed working with this group matter of fact it was a lot of fun and I mean I don't know whether you know I mean I I may do have to defer to other people as far as the expertise in that field um you know I'd like you know of course I'd like to serve on a committee but whether I should be the chair um I don't know um I mean if it is you know Jake Jake they often say they often say that a leader just needs a loud voice yeah but I mean again I I would love the work with this group again because I did and I found it to be very productive could um but I mean I will could could we could we agree that there ought to be a standing committee and just what did you say could we agree that there ought to be a standing committee I think it's this is going to be an ongoing process until it succeeds or fails it's going to have to receive constant ongoing attention not ad hoc but for as long as has to be standing committee and I think the standing committee has to take the work that's already done and finalize it get understanding and acceptance of this body and then manage that process into the future and and maybe you want to think about who you want to appoint to it rather I did you all right to you the chair you know I'll serve I mean I I think Janice would you know Lorraine I think the stepen is a is a new guy I think it just get him more involved in the h i feeler guy and a younger guy I feel hijacked I'm sorry Warren but this is I've been the president of organizations I've run meetings I've asked people to serve I've never been treated this way well I've never been treated this way so what is that well U so now we got that out of the way no th this should be worn the way it it sounds to me like this should be the way you want it to be because you always do better when things are the way you want them to be and I'm very I mean I think that's normal right so I'm very happy not to be in involved I mean I have plenty of things to spend my time on and I don't need to devote them to the HPC or to anything else I mean we all have hundreds of things we could spend our time on so I think I can be out of it entirely that's fine with me because that's clearly what you want well but it's I do think it's important the two things I want to say I think it's important that this should be institutionalized outside of the HPC not that the HPC doesn't have in input not that the HPC doesn't have things to do with it or have a very instrumental role not that HPC people like Jake aren't part of the committee or anything like that I'm I don't think anybody was ever saying that but I think it's important for it to be institutionalized outside of the HPC because we have seen what has happened in the past it it gets you know given up nobody has enough time to do it you know people want to say a lot about how it should go but they don't have enough time to devote to it and I think that if it if it were institutionalized with input from the HPC but outside of the HPC it would have much more longevity and it would stick around longer and it would have more money associated with it and it would have somebody who would always be carrying it on that's one thing I think and meaning that I think the city should be the people the city council should be the person giving they're not a person but the're group of people giving the award and with HPC input I think that's way more valuable for the HPC and uh so I I would say that and I'm very happy to take myself out of it I mean I'm not the chair of it I've never been the chair of it and somebody asked me if I would help and I said yes and that's really the Su total of it well first off I want to make sure I'm not make sure that Jack fix who who will be listening to this tape hears very clearly you know what you're saying and what I'm saying which is that you don't want me to have anything to do with it I got it um no well that's a certainly nice public decoration I'm sorry you fil you had to make that P I want to I I started out thanking the three of you for your work and and beginning this process um I think it is an HBC process and um I appreciate your work and I I'm not offending you it it's not something that I want it's it's that it's an HPC issue it ought to be finalized HBC then make it that way it ought to be well well I think I think we probably will if you if you if you set up a committee the committee will work that way uh and and it will try to function that way uh there is obviously a city connection to the historic preservation Commission of Cape May City oh really there is and and and and but in a in in a bit to pip I think you're overestimating both the depth and the the resources that the city would now it's true the city would bring an aura to this award but the city's thin on Administration it doesn't it doesn't need to have this as an extra Department as an extra concern the expertise and the person power to do this is better within this organization and I think it but but it will involve serious dedicated time and and on a way that will go on um in a regular or or we'll fail but I don't think the city's participation as an overall next entity makes a difference to that can just I mean in terms of you and I we can just agree to disagree agree agree we agree to disagree you're mine and that's it terrific right the only thing is I don't want you leaving here um thinking that I've set out to offend you I'm the one oh I don't think you set out to offend I I I reached out to your expertise and reintroduced you to the HBC and and you were on a a member and and did some excellent work while you were a member your work on the standards book was outstanding and so I please don't take this personally I don't take it personally believe personally at all I believe that U it is an HBC issue at and it's got to be focused and then that group will just go on into the future managing this process so I the three of you have made a great start and and now I I I think we have to continue my problem or is that I refuse to do it unless we do it the way we designed it yeah I will not be good okay that's certainly said in the spirit of cooperation no it's just it's just rude I mean rude it's rude to ask a volunteer who's already devoting a lot of their personal time to this organization to expect that they're going to take on a huge job and then to undermine them when they do their due diligence they do a lot of work they make a proposal in all good faith and to have it completely uh just tossed out the window really I I don't CH I'm not sure I'm not sure I see how how you see this being tossed out the window it's it's being reformulated into an HPC B I mean you may disagree that that's the best way to go forward and it's up to you to decide whether you want to participate but that doesn't mean your talents can't be used inside an HPC committee you what would you have done different if this went outside the HPC as a Citywide award than you would do as a member of a committee be a much larger team why do you say that do you think the city's got lots of people I actually do do you think the city's got lots of folks to I was the chair of the commit pip was for the HC design I would build the stakeholders from a wider for the city and I've been involved I work for the city I also work for HPC when when say the stakeholders she on Council I see this at as a joint project between the city and this committee and why we would not include the city in the project is beyond me we're including Lorraine and no no hang on because yeah because I I the way that we went about researching this it included quite a few municipalities around the state of New Jersey none of them have the HP see that are organizing designing um coming up with the criteria of doing this it's and that's the reason we ended up doing this framework this way and I I totally disagree I don't want to be part of it because it is a perceived um conflict of interest if we're going to be approving applications could it be a conflict if if we're going to be approving applications and then we're going to go and judge the applications that we're either approving or but what Lorraine all that does is it says here's a body of 500 applications of those two or three are superlative you would be so lucky if you had 500 no no I'm I'm just correct my numbers here's a few dozen applications I disagree I disagree so you know I just think that there's a conflict there when we looked at a lot of other municipalities they didn't they didn't do this they didn't organize um this Awards program this way and we looked at quite a few I'm I'm sure you did but there are very few historic preservation Commissions in the state of New Jersey that are as well organized as deeply rooted as as deep as this commission is and it's it's it's really a benefit that this city has that we're up on the level of major New Jersey cities with respect to the expertise that occur at this at this meeting I I don't disagree with you that we have we have expertise on this board but I think deep down we're all kind of in Fe fearing that we're going to create something that's bigger than we all can handle I mean I'm feeling that you know cuz oh yeah I I you know all of us have so many other things going in our lives that we start well I'm going to give this much time to HPC and when we start talking J Janice said something very interesting and that was that in in doing the work she thought she'd be doing she'd be broadening stakeholder participants this I I don't see why why an HPC committee can't reach out for that same kind of input am I missing something so you're suggesting that the HPC would be the dominant or the the generative and that we would bring other people we you've already shown that we probably from time to time will need expertise okay so that's one that's I mean but what prevents a committee with you and and Jake or Lorraine if she wants to serve but any three members of the HPC what prevents that committee from bringing in what input it thinks it needs makes its rules and brings in the input it thinks it needs in order to develop the awards I I don't see and what I don't think is when you get beyond the HBC I think you're relying on a city Administration to carry things forward that has so much else to do that it will really not be a successful path to finalize these Awards if there's going to be Appropriations let them come to the HBC let us increase our budget you know let us let us get the money to do what we have to do but I don't think your belief that other than the or the aura of a a city label and City Prestige I don't think you're going to find anything practically different in the way these rules could be administered you you'll be a you'll be a functioning member of an HPC committee standing to give Awards I I just don't see that this Beyond stuff is that that important you can disagree so I think one thing maybe this is maybe even not even worth saying but one of the things I think you're missing is is that is that we did a lot of research we didn't come up with this thing off the top of our head based on what we think or what we don't think or whatever we did a lot of research by looking at a lot of organizations um not just hpc's but hpc's cities lots of cities give these Awards and um historic associations or you know commissions like this like some of these State commissions give Awards and we also looked at private organizations like preservation New Jersey and we looked at all of them to see what kind of categories do they have how do they do their judging what does this look like what does that look like and then we divide Ed that up so that people would be able to have some input in that be able to say what they thought based on what the whole the whole thing was and that's probably you know different people have different backgrounds but I I don't think I yeah I don't think I missed that I I I'm sorry I don't think I missed it and and and I respect you for because I know you're a thorough researcher and I know you you you go into your material extremely deeply and you come up with good conclusions I I'm just we're just in a different world of where that where that expertise would be would be applied I mean like was this something there's a lot of diverse opinions around the table is this something maybe we should call for a special meeting all members must attend and you know he's already appointed the committee I would I I I think we need to discuss it further I really do well I draw on an experience as a founding president of a Main Street organization and Main Street is a program that tries to build respect for historic preservation in downtown and draws on a lot of stakeholders and in the process of working with that model I really felt that we did that and when I came this board for about a year and sat as a member of the public to make sure that something disastrous didn't happen to a little house behind me I was surprised at how the board worked and how some of the Architects even seemed to completely disregard the standards not really understand what a contributing structure was and I wondered how can this be we're we're in national landmark City how can a group of sincere hardworking preservationist be so misunderstood and then when I was working on our own project from trades people I heard again and again horror stories of a 90-year-old woman who couldn't get um a generator because it was in the you know or a board member who had somebody take out something from their house and then did the same thing on theirs there's a lot of bad press about the HBC and there's a lot of people trying to figure out how can I do what I want to do on the weekend under the radar so that you know it's not that big of a deal it's up up to code it's just not perfect so this is what I've been hearing all through 2018 and I stood up in December of 2018 and I said you guys are doing a great job but you need a PR program because the word of mouth on the street is not good and the former mayor called me up and asked me for my opinion and I thought since I'm a Communications professional and I have very a lot of other things going on I'll just give him a list and my husband says no he's going to ask you to be on the HPC I no he is it oh yes he was yeah and sure enough he asked and I'm like oh no but but you know I mean I have to go back there and and Janice a lot of that stuff so here I am five years I started to put my heart into something that I believe in which is to broaden the stakeholders and to work with the city and that's why I said I felt hijacked Warren because I I must admit I'm a little lost at why you wouldn't want to continue to try to developed that program with a standing committee instead of an ad hoc three people a standing committee that that that's based on the structure that we researched that we believe is the most effective for the city of Kate may I will definitely stay on that committee but I will not head or work on a committee that wants this to stay in this little group I think that's the problem I think it's a perception problem I think we work hard what if it's a standing committee to make a proposal to the full board that everybody can vote on there we go the full board here yeah it the stand be no but it can be it can be that and and then everybody can just hear it out and say you know what I like that or it's not going to work there there are there is a lot of Merit in talking about the image of the HP which has been not the greatest um and from time to time has been worse than not the greatest and um recognition of the merits of an award would presumably boost the reputation to know that we reward things that are good as opposed to punish things that are bad I I I don't I don't think that that means that you have to go to the city of Kate May and say confirm those Awards what you need to do is improve I we certainly could use better PR right we certainly could use better public relations you don't need the city to to do that we need to do that and and and and if we're going to give Awards we need to give the awards the best we need to work with the city I'm not you know I don't I don't deny that that that it's not like we're shutting off the city what we're talking about is the heavy lifting and for the heavy lifting the credit for doing the awards they are our historic preservation Awards I'm not I'm really not worried about credit personally I well that's what helps that's what helps the body I mean and it's getting getting to the point where I'm you know losing my people on city council won credit for lots of things going on in town and and I'm sure they'll to do this what we put together and bringing them in on uh at least doing presentations of things like that is a real good idea I mean every everybody likes to be noticed and liked and appreciated uh and bring them in on that yeah I'm not I'm not arguing Chris's suggestion and I think it's getting really late yeah I I don't like Chris's suggestion but I agree it's getting really late well one thing one thing P brought up but I saw so that's a no to that's a no I mean pip did pip did give us quite a few lists of things that Awards could go for and but you did say we don't have to give all those awards every year maybe one year we'd have three Awards maybe one year we'd have five and that's exactly spread it out over a five year perod and that's exactly what it a lot of applications we can go through to really pick out the best that that is ex buring burdening it to to me that's exactly what an administrative body done as a standing committee dedicated to do will do yeah so we're going to adjourn huh well soon I hope to be continued the the question is moving forward and Chris had made a suggestion that we take the three and now four people including Stephen to take this information and come back to the HBC distilled a little bit further um refined a little bit more because even then it's going to have to be refined again the idea is to establish an awards program that will last for years to make it worthwhile and um it can't be done you know in like by December or something I don't think so um if if you're not willing to participate Janice no she's not saying that's your decision but it seems like if the four of you were to get together and meet and and maybe um a month or something or or maybe after you meet for a while come give us an idea of when you're ready to come back to the HBC with with a presentation the work that you've already done is is high quality and I appreciate it personally you C we can't do that many awards every year and we can't have a big dinner every year in my estimation from a budget standpoint we struggled with finding someone to give an award to before and we had an ad hoc way of doing it and that led to some of that and so you're providing some structure but I think um you you mov the ball um to the next level and now we need another enhanced group to come back and move it to the next level and see if we can put something in place that'll stand the test of time Mac has an annual meeting that gives out wine great food fun presentation and I bet we don't have 3% of our members show up at it I mean that's people people in this town are doing so many different things living in all kinds of different places it's hard to pull people together down here yeah don't expect P lives in Philadelphia makes it difficult um I'm sorry who are the four people well I don't know whether we have agreement I suggested uh Jake Janice lorine and Stephen well we we need Judy and I personally feel like we need pip well I I don't I don't have to be involed at all I really I think you ought to let this settle for a bit not make decisions tonight that you won't feel are terrific tomorrow might say no he's you he's got a lot of things going yeah yeah I sort of have to be I don't have to be a part of the community but I have to involed yes absolutely definitely I have to keep track oford we can include you on the committee I don't have a problem with that is is that the consensus I mean you can just be secretary in general if he want us to the secretary has to provide the records to go through so secretary so so Judy will you're part of the you you know she can act as secretary to the committee right I mean she's an officer of the HPC well no but she should participate she can participate in the committee I mean I more than just a secretary why can't she be a member that's what I just that's what he just said yeah I know that mostly the organizations I belong to you the body these people um but I mean given a light of the work that everyone has done I mean I'll probably serve with them when an official committee but I mean you know I mean now we're giving it the stand know this is an official committee but taking into has been done this so far Lorraine how about you I'm not processing I'll meet once with the committee just to see the direction um but I I still feel it's a a conflict of interest I really do and um I'm just going to reserve that at this point I'm not sure I have the time or the will to keep on this committee if if you two who I've been working with are not actively involved in it I mean it's it's an interesting project but it's a big project I'm in the process of moving I have a lot of other things going my mind right now and this is a really disappointing meeting is there a way that we could table this back right now do do you really expect to settle this at 10 o'clock you're not this is going to require further discussion as far as I can tell we've determined there ought to be a standing committee we haven't decided who could really who'll be members of it because they haven't agreed to serve so that's a pretty good summary well you know me I'm so short in my summary let's let's Let the Smoke settle and get a little fresh start on it do I have a motion to adjourn Tom y are you driving back to Philly tonight no you're not good are you you're stay I worry about you guys at night deserted