##VIDEO ID:nkG5IW1dxGY## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e oh we happened to John welcome everyone historic preservation um commission um November 25th 2024 it's just a couple minutes after six o'clock uh in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member uh has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should state so at this time pledge allegiance please to the flag of the United United States of America to the repic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson here Mr Testa here miss pagno here Miss Wilson Str here Mr hammerin here thank you minutes October 21st 2024 you've had a chance to review those uh minutes do I have a motion to accept them so move do I have a second second motion by Miss Wilson stck seconded by Mr Stevenson Mr copelan yes Mr Becker abstain Mr Stevenson yes m bagore Miss bagno abstain thank you Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammerin yes thank you sorry did I hear myself call did Mr Tesa in any event I vote yes thank you sorry I I really only respond when my name is call details resolutions city of Kate May 643 Washington Street block 1059 lot 11 resolution 202 435 JTG Group LLC 1382 Lafayette Street block 1145 lot 6 resolution 20 2436 dowy 211 Grant Street block 1022 Lot 23 resolution 10 20 2437 Hof 106 Washington Street block 1110 lot two resol resolution 202 2438 and finally Hammerman 1010 Washington Street block 1110 lot three resolution 20 2439 do I have a motion to approve those resolutions I'll move to adopt the uh resolutions just noted do I have a second I'll second motion by Mr Tessa seconded by Miss Wilson stck Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno abstain Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammeron thank you applications approved or denied in review you've had a chance to review all of those do I have a motion to accept them so moved do I have a second seconded motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson yes with the exception of 2919 North Street thank you Mr Tesa uh yes with the exception of Wilkinson 1021 New Jersey Avenue from which I abstain thank you Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes uh with the exception of rerio 1021 Beach Avenue curb cut which I object to thank you Mr hammerin yes thank you old business uh first up tonight is uh cleave clle um sorry for the pronunciation 501 Hugh street block 1049 lot 10.01 this is a non-contributing [Music] fence turn on your mic turn mic it's better when it's green also have with me uh David shorton David's an architect with um Andrew Beck to's firm who is the uh architect who designed the plans related to this project uh Mr chairman as you indicated this is an application for which we're back before the board seeking an amended approval as it relates to uh fencing and gating at the property at 501 Hugh Street this uh was an application that was previously filed with the board back in March of this year uh and an approval received on on May 28th of this year related to um what was seeking to be installed on the property that included not only fencing but also an inground swimming pool and patio pavers in the uh behind the building um to match those that that were existing there at the then current time that approval as I indicated was received in May proceeded to the planning board thereafter for site plan approval which was granted on August 27th uh copy of the resolution I've got with me I'll provide as an exhibit this evening uh but what that approval required was us as a condition to come back before this body related to the fencing and gating uh as what was approved previously was a 6-ft wooden fence in what is deemed uh to be a front yard albeit behind this building it's a corner lot with two front yards the planning board was not inclined to Grant relief for anything more than a 4-ft fence on that side so our amended application sought Clarity on that um on that point uh as well as proposing a change in the style of the fencing from from what was approved as a wooden fence uh to what is proposed as a 48 in at the final RW iron fence which we think is more aesthetically pleasing and appropriate for this property um so in a nutshell that is what is before the board tonight uh Chris I know that I'd provided you with with a copy of uh an exhibit if I can have it marked as A1 it incorporates prior uh the prior approval of this body resolution of the board correspondence between myself and the and the uh HBC as well so I have sufficient copies for everybody thank you than yeah I just I don't know why David if you can I I just mentioned you know that we're proposing RW iron fence uh as um in know as opposed to the wooden fence that was approved previously can you show the board where it is we're looking to locate that and what's proposed exactly uh North is pointing up on the plan the cater front is is uh vertical to the left to the west side of the property here's the subject home and here is the subject pool in the area that we're talking about relative to which is being with that area being fenced in the fence is coming off of the face of the building in the corner towards the back around uh this property this portion of the property and then straight out to decar Avenue and then it's going to come up off ofar Avenue about a foot back beyond the property line and then down the property prop line um on the north side of the property this is a rod iron fence and gate 48 in tall in compliance with uh zoning regulations uh we changed it from a wood to a rot iron because rot iron is we believe more acceptable and more appropriate inor condition and more appropriate with the standards that that that standard is established the fence across the back is the existing fence it's an existing wooden fence that is 4 and 1/2 ft High uh approximately down to the face of the building and then it's a six High wooden fence that we are proposing to keep and Dave can you also talk about some of the Landscaping we're proposing on the inside of the fence but to Shield um you know from the streetcape what is proposed on the inside of the fence will be made up of American Hol four to 6 feet tall grow to approximately 8T tall approximately 60 to 62 Ines in diameter so they become very dense hard to see through of course they'll be they'll be married usually three to one male to female so that they bury well it's a beautiful uh uh feature across uh toar Avenue and the north side of the property to give a dense buffer from the public Zone to the private Zone okay thank you any questions Mr sh just wanted to get that out you're here tonight to talk about the fence um but um the issue for us is a little bit different this was originally approved in review um in error and um the pool is the proximity to decer Street uh creates a um a a problem with streetcape um it it's close to the street um we have not approved uh pools that close to um uh um um a main street in the historic district um and um since it's coming back for um fence uh which is required um our position is that that opens up the discussion to um consider whether the pool is appropriate at that location um and so uh tonight um we are uh going to consider more than offense we'll consider the entire application um the fact that it was made an error is doesn't prevent us from visiting at at this point um and uh the question is um I guess for the group how we want to proceed I I'm assuming you don't agree with yeah if I can Mr chair can can I make a suggestion on on this this one um so the applicants here they brought uh Mr amen Houser is here representing them they also brought um David shorton David shorton and and you're a architect with the firm of uh Beck told Thomas and Beck told got it so we have a threshold issue which is kind of irregular um in that this was on I think it proceeded through the Review Committee it actually ended up in a resolution not not a resolution but it ended up on the agenda for that roll call vote The Voice vote um for uh applications that are in review the the problem here as I see it and I want to give Mr amen Houser an opportunity to make his arguments to the board but I think we should hear out the applicant as to why and and allow him to make a record I understand A1 basically summarizes my record position and I don't have a problem you know stipulating that A1 is is the applicant's position on that front but if you want to make any additional kind of you know your position to the board and I I'll give it's probably going to be a Counterpoint to that but then I would suggest the board make a decision as to whether essentially the pool is still in play or not and you're going to hear some arguments from Mr aenh Houser and I'll I'll give probably a counter what'll sound like a Counterpoint to that and then the board the board should make a decision it's not up to me um and it's not up to one person on the board and everybody understands that but you should make a decision as a unit how you want to proceed on this um but after hearing you know the the basis for that and then depending on the outcome of that we may want to have some testimony on the the merits of whatever we end up with on the outcome of that but I just for purposes of keeping a clean record I I think we should deal with that threshold issue first understood so I I'll turn the floor over to you Mr amonous so briefly just to you touched on a few of the points that are relative to this but I just want to from a time frame perspective sort of place this as to how things proceed it this application was originally filed back in March of this year on April 3rd I received correspondence from the HPC secretary indicating that our initial application was not acceptable to the board namely the fence proposed at the time which was an aluminum fence this suggestion that we received via email was that it wasn't appropriate and that we if we submitted an application for a wood fence it could be reviewed in committee we thereafter that was on April 3rd and a copy of its exhibit B uh to what I provided this evening thereafter we did just that we went back We examined a wood fence we prepared a plan and application for wood fence and submitted that and was uh it was then told to us on May 15th that the original application was not denied that if a wood fence had been submitted which it was here it could be re-reviewed in committee and would be and that it would be reviewed on Tuesday May 28th which apparently it was because we received a copy of an approval from this body on that same date indicating that the application was approved that application not only consisted of the revised wood fence plan but an inground swimming pool a landscape plan as was shown on the site plan and patio pavers in what we referred to as the rear of the building it's not a rear yard but the rear of the building all of those items were not only in our original submission but we in our follow-up submission which was then approved in May thereafter in June uh June 17th to be precise as was indicated this application was listed on applications approved denied in review it's it's clearly it's about halfway down on that agenda the minutes from that meeting suggests that that was approved that night by a 7 nothing unanimous Voice vote as well so it's assumed that even if reviewed mistakenly in review was then placed on an agenda for anybody on the commit to see and if there was objection to it it could have been objected to at the time there were none it was approved unanimously as I said on June 17th we thereafter went and spent my I should say my clients spent time and money on a planning board site plan application to see that through to fruition we went before that body on August 27th initially that was an application for site plan review or approval and variance relief we eliminated the need for any variance relief and received unanimous approval by the the planning board that evening related to this site plan inclusive of the pool inclusive of the Landscaping the pavers and the fence to a degree there was one condition of that approval uh and it's memorialized in the board's resolution and provided this evening as part of my my packet submission that we come back before this body as it related solely to the gating and the fencing that were proposed because they were not willing to approve a six-foot fence along the that's considered a front yard they weren't going to go anywhere above four so we had two options come back here and propose a 4ft wooden fence which would be acceptable to that board if acceptable to this body or make a slight change which we proposed to do which was to go from wood to RW iron in that area which we believe to be more historically appropriate and come back here and ask for that approval that that is what we are doing tonight uh my position legally is that the application before you is is solely for that of an amended approval related to the fences and Gates I don't think my application could have been any clearer as to what we were seeking tonight I I also am of the opinion that under the municipal land use law uh related to storic preservation commission this body as you know is an advisory body body that provides referrals to planning and zoning boards it's not no it's not it's incorrect I don't I don't believe it is incorrect I think the statute's Fairly it's a strong it's a strong HPC which means construction official can't issue without our approval correct they but not that's not advice that's that's binding you I agree and you provided a binding approval my position is in May we just don't refer to ourselves as an advisory body understood but by Statute this board has the ability to provide referrals to the Planning and Zoning Board related to application absolutely and there is time frame stipulated in that statute as to when that is to occur the position here is that that did occur prior to the that board hearing our application on the 27th of August they considered that referral and they based their position and determination on that so to now come back here when that application for development has been decided I think is inappropriate and I don't think finds any Merit or or ability to be done under the municipal langes law there's could be an argument that under the code you might think otherwise but I think the statutory text is what would govern here and I believe following that the only thing that we're back here for is related to against uh fencing and gating that's the position is more elaborately set forth in my pleadings but that that's the summation of it so I'll say that the I don't think anybody um in this room up here on the other side of the table would look at the the this particular process and say hey that's a really good example of how things should work um but the the follow-up question to that is is is it too late or is the city foreclosed or specifically HPC from correcting an error and I think the legal answer to that from my standpoint is no it's not too late and the reason for that would be um one we have two distinct processes when you enter the HPC first you start with what Mr test had just indicated that it's a strong HPC under the municipal land use law and is set forth in the city code which means that you may have to go to the shade tree commission you may have to go to planning board you may have to go to zoning board but you have to check the box of getting HPC approval some way or somehow it's one it's I described this numerous times as a vend diagram all those circles have to overlap shade tree commission planning zoning HPC is one of those circles that has to overlap for you to get a per a building permit so that that approval has to come some way somehow and what Mr amuser is pointing to is he's saying hey I got a approval the problem with that argument I think for the HPC standpoint and and really looking back to what the purpose of this board is which is to protect the city's Historic Landmark status among other things but we have major and minor applications the minor applications it's not a mystery what those things are they're defined in the code to give people Direction it says any application for certificate of appropriateness which one does not involve demolition relocation or removal of historic sites uh B does not involve an addition it's a b does not involve an addition to a property in the historic district or new construction in the historic district C is a request for approval of fences signs lighting doors windows roofs Paving exterior sheathing and the types of materials that we generally see in that list that ends up on the agenda and D is a request for a field change for a certificate of appropriateness which which has already been issued minor applications are the types of things that can be approved in review and you know we see a list of this we'll see material changes you know we're swapping out this window for that roofing material for that maybe changing a door but you don't see a new house on approved in review and you don't see new garage those are the types of things we've been seeing at the board and some we've even seen fence applications here more recently we're sitting here talking about fences for an hour so even the and and this is to be from a practical standpoint a filter because if we did every one of these as a board we'd be here till 2 in the morning so what happened here is something slipped through the filter that probably shouldn't have and I don't think anybody's going to argue about that and it doesn't matter who's there's no point in casting blame on it because my point is it's not too late to fix that because the problem with approving a pool in that context is that's the type of thing that doesn't qualify as a minor minor application it's the type of thing that this board under the city code is supposed to review and if we haven't reviewed a pool yet this would be the time to do it let's talk about the pool and and I'm not suggesting from a procedural standpoint how you come out on that vote I I would suggest that you hear the applicant out and there may be ways to mitigate that I I have I have some difficulty when I mean when we when we review the applications in review and we vote on them um I consider that the equivalent of a ratification of of the actions of our committee and um I'm sure since it was seven to nothing I voted in favor of this application um but maybe by oversight um that ratification shouldn't have taken place where I smart enough to see that the application were more thorough or larger than than it was um I'm I'm prepared to to to go at both issues um if the applicant is willing to do the merits of a pool um and the fence I'm willing to go to both issues tonight well I was also willing to go to either either issue but but um if there's not a willingness to proceed with our reviewing the pool now as a as a full body then I'm not sure where I go well I I think the applicants here we the board's going to need to make a decision on this either way if the applicant wants to proceed of course but I think we need to make a threshold decision here as to whether we're here to talk about offence or a pool on off fence and the other Associated things going on and proposed at that site and I'm what I'm saying Mr amen Houser thinks hey we're only here to talk about a pool you already decided that what I'm saying is whether that was a mistake or not uh this HPC is able to revisit that and it's it's not uh not a desirable way of getting here but it's the type of thing that should have been presented to this entire board and it doesn't matter how we got here it's just this is this is a thing that we can fix now and it's you know it's not 10 months into construction it's we're pre-building permit right now is that correct Mr amuser I know it's not ideal but we're pre-building permit right now I just I I disagree with your take on this got it all told but you're correct it's not constructed as yet there's no permit issu so we're not under construction at this time um it just I mean to me it comes down to a question of whether or not the the ratification really has without without everybody having full full knowledge that they perhaps should have whether it's effective and binds us and I I feel uncomfortable about that that's why I'm willing to review the merits of the pool tonight as as well as the fans I I I'm really saying that because I like to explore how it is that this pool falls short of what we might approve that's that's the reason that wouldn't it make sense to split it into the two pieces and and um have have a determination of whether this thing is is approved or not approved the position that I I believe the HBC is in is that if the HBC makes a mistake uh the Review Committee makes a mistake if I make a mistake uh we uh are not bound by um an administrative mistake um and we can revisit it and it seems to me that that that's the first question to be answered and then um we would look at them depending on how that yeah I just think we have two different legal points no no no that's that's exactly the point is we I think we need to decide just for purposes of moving this along where does the board stand on those two issues you heard to Mr irman Houser believes that the board is foreclosed from considering the pool part of it what I'm saying is I don't agree with that it's a minor it's not a minor application therefore it should have come to this board this is the time would be the time to consider that now whether they want to proceed beyond that is another question but we should take a I would suggest we take a vote to uh either resend that that prior uh Voice vote agenda vote and consider the the to the total of the application and that you know that's the decision I threshold decision I think the the board should make and then we can go to the merits of whatever we're left the only other thing i' I I think it's Unique here too is that you this went to the planning board too right this isn't something that was caught a month or so later we're we're talking about having been approved back in may we went through a lengthy process thereafter and now have unanimous approval by the planning board so it's difficult for me to Envision how procedurally we now come back here and you're going to tell us potentially we don't approve this or we approve it with X Y and Z changes we now have to go back for amended site plan approval from unanimously granted it to us I don't know what the outcome of of what that's going to be but the the planning board does not Trump what the HPC does the H it's it's separate and distinct if you don't like an HPC decision you could potentially appeal that to the zoning board right but what the the planning board does because it's a strong commission has to they have to overlap for the applicant to proceed with the building permit they have to get the design approved here and whatever planning board site plan things have to be dealt with there but yeah there but I I I don't I don't think we properly exercised our jurisdiction with respect to reviewing a whole application I mean I need I think we need to do it again so I would I would sorry I I think we need to we need to to see the pool on the merits and and effectively that reopens the case so I have a comment here I I I believe we should also look at it as one submission including the pool and and for simple reason that I'm not convinced that they're issues that should be separated because they're so integral to each other furthermore I looking at the review pulled up from the file the review documents you submitted back in May and they're actually significantly different than what you submitted to the zoning ordinance and or zoning commission as well as what you submitted for the application um dated uh October 4th that we're reviewing tonight in that couple things one is that this site plan the plot diagram it specifically in the larger diagram calls a rear yard diagram well it's not really a rear yard because it's a side yard because it's a corner lot on decater second there's significantly different Landscaping on the new drawing than the old drawing third there's no indication of Decor Street on the plot diagram or the parking there so there was not really any ability other than going and and visiting the property to distinguish that it was a corner lot and therefore had implications on the pool location so for all that all those reasons specifically around the original submission I can understand why the mistake was made therefore I think that we should review it all as one submission again I would simply add that in the um in the small turn your mic on speak up and turn your mic on please I would simply uh actually back stop what Chris said this is not a minor application I think in the U in the U small group review when these are done pools are almost always pushed to the I can't even I can't even remember one that was approved at the U the small group review now I did not attend all of those in the in the first part of the year but I think all the ones that I can recall have all come to the full commission um those are major changes to the property um and they you know they impact the Landscaping the fencing the the the street appearance the you know a number of other other aspects so I cannot imagine um that why we would not want to review the entire project here do do you need do you need a motion for the way we should approach this you asked before I'd like to move that the application is submitted tonight be treated as an application um on the whole for a pool and a surrounding fence second motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr Copeland um yes uh with a a bit of an explanation because it it is unfortunate it's a mistake it's a it um uh is a burden then a bit on the owners and um it it's unfortunate that it happened but it is a mistake and um and we should look at the application in its entirety Mr Mr Becker yes I said yes great yes for me as as well please Mr Stevenson yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hammeron yes thank you Chris can I take a minut to discuss my this means and I just want to to proceed it all together I'm not turn your mic johnon get that I'm just I don't want to indicate I'm waving my objection to the fact that I don't think procedurally we have the ability to do that that said if the board's going to require us to do it we proceed forward there's I don't want to indicate there's any waiver of that objection your objection is is noted um but you want to talk to them about whether you want to proceed on the merits of everything yes if I can take one second is that all right Mr yeah great absolutely yeah tissue need a tissue from my office great bring the box I'm just thinking if it had said here read these I know I've started so I don't revie those I review all the contributing ons I never look at non-contributing unless I got lots of extra time but I see I I look through the words I don't e e e e e e e e e e uh Mr solicitor Mr chairman after talking to my client again with without waving our objection procedurally to what we're here for they have agreed to present this tonight in hopes of being able to reach resolution with the board so we're ready to present the the entirety of the plan okay I'm here so Dave if you can you've got the site plan that's up before the board tonight talk about what it is that's being proposed in that rear yard and from a for an HPC standard in terms of what's proposed the inground pool def fencing how they meet the historic character um of not only the property but of the the zoning district and before you start talking can you grab that mic and hit the green button and you can stand with it if you want okay the client is proposing to landscape put a swimming pool add a fence uh what is uh this sidey yard because this is a corner property as mentioned previously so with the corner property you have two fronts one rear one side this would be the side yard if if um if I'm interpreting that correctly I don't want to step I don't want to speak out of line from a zoning point that is correct okay so this is in the side yard the side yard is is comprised of a grassed area SED area along with the additional Landscaping that we are proposing uh which is in uh compliance with the uh historic preservation commission's desires for specific Landscaping uh the swimming pool is an 18 by 25t swimming pool uh has a 10-ft setback off of the sidey yard um which is your North property line and has a 10ft setb off of the Easter property uh line which would be the rear yard since this is a sidey yard and then your front yard setback is a 22t 10 in setback to the swimming pool um and it's a 23t 6 in setback to the water's edge all of these setbacks are in compliance with zoning regulations and there are there were no variances sought relative to the placement or the size of the pool the size of the pool and and and um its location are within zoning regulations and Dave we also there's some images on the bottom related to patio pavers that were being proposed uh so we there's a patio Pap area in the rear of the building I'll be at the sidey yard that's being proposed as yeah there's a rear there's a rear patio paver uh which connects the main structure to the pool so people are not walking through G grass and sod and dirt and getting dirt in the pool and clogging up the filters it's it's just for a practical nature previously we had pavers all the way around and we took those away because it was a zoning regulation to remove those so we complied with the zoning regulations and and that created more Landscaping it created more Greenery it created a feature that is more appropriate with historic nature of this zone so what's important often from a historic perspective too is how this is going to impact if at all the streetcape right so think of this along decater if you're looking into that that yard with what's being proposed in terms of the Landscaping is this proposed inground swimming pool going to have a detrimental effect to the streetscape in my opinion it will not from the streetscape you won't you won't see it there's a plenty of land scaping buffer uh behind the RW iron fence as I previously testified we're using American holly American holly grows to a relatively dense uh status and it's hard to see through them um and they're beautiful plants uh they are plants that are once again in accordance with the uh with your preservation District standards uh and uh we have a tree uh that that is proposed that is going to uh cut the corner off and be another large feature uh that would uh block any view from the street and this also provides a sound buffer not just to the Westerly property line which fronts on dear but at the Northerly property line which is adjacent to the the property to the north that buffer continues for not just a visual buffer but a sound buffer okay and then we talked earlier about a proposed rod iron fence right can you talk about color height things of that related to that rod iron it's it's black right yeah yeah rod iron is black um and and wood fences are permitted in the historic district but we really believe that we want wanted to get away from that and since we were coming back we we needed to lower the fence relative to the zoning ordinance to comply with their regulations so we decided to make it a rod iron fence because we believe that fits um more appropriately in the historic district district and it enhances the streetcape and plus the historical nature it enhances the historical nature of what we're trying to propose to do with with the RW iron fence and its black is four feet high which is uh in compliance with zoning regulations and the RW iron fence will be to the street side of the proposed Landscaping correct the Landscaping will be inside that fence uh yes the rod iron fence will be just behind the property line off of decer the West property line off of decater and directly behind that will be the uh the Landscaping so that RW iron fence on the exterior of the landscape will it'll propose an aesthetic enhancement I assume right historically as well as just yes it'll be visual it'll be visual from the streetcape okay all right anything else that we're proposing in the rear it pretty much sums up what's proposed through no the the photographs here um we we're putting the pavers connecting uh the perious area of of the house to the swimming pool and these pavers are uh located uh with the Oldtown Cobble and an Oldtown Cobble is a historic nature once again complies with uh your desires and the historic preservations standards uh to to be something that is views has a visual uh fenestration and feel for the historic nature uh that we're Desiring to comply with to satisfy this this board uh in addition we have pictures of the fence the existing fence along the uh rear Easter Eastern property line which is remaining and then we have the picture of the Raod iron fence and the gate that is proposed with that is going to be of the same nature same height uh same color uh which as I um testified previously is connected to the house wraps Westerly with a gate facing the parking and um there's a little gate that's facing the west side of the property and then that that gate then continues out to the street that decater and then heads North and continues along the north property line and that's that's visual IR as well corre the gate will be rot iron and the fence will be proud of all Landscaping so anybody looking from outside this property you know will see you know the historical nature of the rod iron fence and then the Landscaping behind it which is providing the buffer okay any questions Mr short now because I I didn't bring my magnifying glass would you repeat for me what the f I mean I see the tree on on Decor uh tell me what the two um uh pieces of foliage are at the Northwest and the southwest corner of the pool area the trees yeah there's there's a there's what appeared to be on the northwest corner of the pool in the southwest corner being in addition to the American Hol West uh they are uh Red Buds thanks I was just going to look okay got it there you go was getting ready to look on the the uh Landscaping schedule thank you yes coverage requirements they they did not no we met all coverage requirements we were originally um board may recall we we had originally proposed additional pavers we removed those as part of our planning board application added more grass to the rear yard in order to ensure that we stayed under any lot coverage requirements so we did do that between the the existing wooden one and the newos iron are connected to the house at both so that you have a complete circle around po are correct it is enclosed yes it is [Music] enclosed thank you thank you thank you board members um as as typical we go around the room um um Jim you want to start sure um and I I guess I'll I'll go fact I don't find this really very difficult at all I'll go I'll take the fence um as as part of the application and speak to it I think the choice of the RW iron was an improvement um I I think it's consistent with similar fences on Hughes on decar on Jackson U and and as a material rod iron is durable it's going to look fine so so the fence is not a an issue for me at all and I would have approved the fence separately with respect to the pool um and it seems to me correct me if I'm wrong but you said 22 plus feet from the um from the RightWay to the edge of the pool 22 23 feet 2210 to the edge of the coping and 236 to the face of the water it's it's a it's a fair amount of space it's not as far as some we've seen but it's a fair amount of space and and I'm I'm favorably impressed by the um the density of the foliage that's being planted um and and I and I want to make sure that that barrier to decater um with the American holly um and get you've got a 4- foot fence and behind it you have Holly growing I want to make sure two things that the Holly is planted densely enough so that when you're walking along to cater you see a beautiful fence and you don't see through the to the pool that's that's really my concern uh and and I'd like it to be dense I'd also want you to know that we've had circumstances where Landscaping plans in critical places um have been neglected over time and and so um I I would be in favor of um uh of of uh of keeping along with the plan as you proposed it but I would I want to make sure that your Landscaping plan is maintained for a long time and in and in fact when I say a long time I mean I'd like it to run with the land so that it becomes a covenant to maintain that Landscaping plan um and and deviations from it will require um some kind of action with the city so I'd be in favor of your um uh your proposal with a fence I'd be in favor of your proposal with the pool uh as long as it were densely landscaped and that you maintain that landscape for let's just say as long as the structure is is there so it would run with the land that would that that's my view Janice yeah I agree that um iron fence is a very appropriate choice and uh the concern about the pool from its visibility and the impact the inappropriateness of a pool in the historic district these are all issues that we grapple with um I don't know if we have the authority to deny it just because we don't think it's appropriate our our design standards say that the pools need not to be located visibly so everything Jim said about a covenant to maintain a landscape buffer um would would definitely be part of what I would consider a reasonable approval from us um that's about it thank you so just a couple of additional remarks the initial height of the American holly will be what when it's installed when the the height of the American holly when it's initially installed will be how high yeah generally about 48 inches 48 48 in generally is the height oh wait a minute we have a disagreement in the audience well we we're not doing back and forth right now there'll be an for yeah you can buy them in various sites buy them tall buy them tall buy them tall no I would suggest bringing mature specimens and that we're not going to wait 15 years for these things to grow to cover everything so I would like to see mature specimens pretty tall to make sure nobody sees through because that's a very uh prominent location in town right in the heart of the district um yeah yeah pretty pretty tall would be still in the middle of what I wanted to talk about don't mind thank you so um I have an opinion about pools that May um not be in alignment with what our standards say and I think our role here is not to express opinions as much as it is to ensure that what is being installed and what is being approved by this body is in accordance with our standards our standards on page 45 say regarding site elements such as decks patios fire pits pools and trellises should be located in the rear sidey yard check side yard and not be visible from the public RightWay so I have only two issues with regard to this one is that when you install the pool the initial planting should be at least 5' 4 in high because that's higher than almost higher than just above average eye height for humans according to graphic standards right you're familiar with that right yes yes that would be that's one that would be accurate two um there is a view as you're walking up to cater when you're standing in front of the parking in fact there's a brought a photograph of it you see that little twoot stone wall That's returning perpendicular to the road I can't quite do this because on my arm but John is is that something that the applicant submitted or is that something you brought I brought this okay so let's let's mark that as H let's mark that as HPC1 okay andn why don't you take a look at that to time just just for easy refence so right so based on the site plan that I see it will be visible from the RightWay over that little stone wall and the The Ivy that you have running north south along decar does not make a return east west back towards the house therefore we will be able to see the pool from I can show you yeah stop this corre so what I'm talking about is yeah so as I'm walking up the street here I'll be able to see the pool right so if you put that same planting as a return to here far enough so that no matter what angle is we can't see the pool cool I think you're excellent yeah yeah that would have been our so therefore um with regard to the FR I also want to complement you because there are two different rod iron fences on that property one is the one around the courtyard to the north where we're talking about enclosing the pool the other is on the other side actually along um Hughes and the original fence I believe is the one along Hughes and it has a solid top rail which is very similar to the one you're proposing which is different than the one that's in this photograph which I think is more recent so I would like to compliment you on selecting the uh the more appropriate fence um other than that I think as long as you abide by what it says on page 45 as we just discussed with the original height and that angle I could approve this thank you thank you I tend to agree with everything everyone else has said but in the 22 feet or is it 22 feet from the pool to the street yes okay um the um you have that little gazebo with the bride in it or whatever that is there yes I mean what's going to happen to that CU that's kind of iconic she stays she stays she'll be pushed up further that that where that is is where the pool would be because that that that little structure is decoration it's not structure walls but uh that that is more than 30 that that's where the pool be right there so so it will be removed then we have we have no place to put that that gazebo but but we will so just for the record the Gazebo is going to go in place of the pool yes yeah that's there's no place to it's not it's a shame though because it is you know it it's been there for a long time and uh you know if there was any way that that could be moved into the to 22 ft to help provide a buffer move our yeah right I yeah I I tend to agree with everything that everyone said um the only question that I have uh legally being able to um take into account what Mr Testa said is that something that could be attributed to the property as far as the um landscaping and making sure that that is as a deep restriction as a deep restriction if it's if it's a um condition for purposes of mitigating and controlling preserving you know the board yeah if the board would not approve that there but for a robust Landscaping plan that is designed and built to last then it then I think it's reasonable to include that as a condition um I would just in we we need to talk about the details of that and I think that the the requ IR M to keep that in place would be one tied to what's being approved tonight and then it would be in favor of the city and the HPC and any modifications of that would have to come before the board again if there was a change proposed change okay and lorine we've done this in a few occasions before okay this is the first one that I've been a part of and and and in fact one of them was actually to Shield the pool okay I like the idea um just didn't legally know the concern is that you put it up it looks nice for 3 to five years and then after three to five years it Withers and and there's nothing there but a pool nobody's maintaining it exactly so wonderful thank you B uh it always seems in congruous to me whenever we um approve a pool near a commercial area one is very busy the other one's supposed to be a place of quiet respit but that being said as long as as Jake has suggested m plants go in to you know keep the two separate no one sees it it's not part of karmas it's not part of a private life then I would agree with that I also was concerned as Mr Hammer uh about lot coverage because there seems to be an awful lot of pavers there already but if that's within the bounds and that's fine I can certainly represent we're under own coverage just we went through that exercise with the board to confirm that thank you just Kevin your mic thanks um just one quick comment I'm I can't honestly say that I'm enamored with the pool but on the other hand and I think part of part of that the reason for that honestly is I think part of the charm and the historic character of K May is is its Gardens um I mean we have a garden tour in fact um and so I just think that that's it's a shame to see something like that lost in this kind of a plan um I guess like John I agree we you know we our requirement is to focus on what's allowed in our standards and to stick to the standards as our our guide book our North Star so I'm I don't have anything else to add I just shame to see another Garden lost um I have um with with the best plantings uh possible you're it it's hard to have a total um barrier a total wall and making the pool invisible this is in the heart of the historic district part of um the streetcape includes um not just the visual but the Ambiance the sound um and people playing in a pool um the the Landscaping is not going to uh buffer that and it's certainly not in keeping with our period of significance um as as a Victorian Community the pool is uh permanent of course in a relative sense where the Landscaping is not and even with deed restrictions and everything else um five years from now or something or eight 10 years from now and different members uh move on uh the deed restriction May in fact not provide the protection that the city needs that our National Historic Landmark needs so um I'm um not in favor I don't believe this pool meets the standards that um have been established um we we talk about uh not visible and and in a in a side yard and normally though that discussion is significantly further further back than 22 ft and so uh I'm I don't believe the plan meets the standards that have been established for pools in the historic district do I have a motion well I I will make a motion to approve the application as submitted covering the fence uh and covering the pool with the conditions that a landscaping plan um involving mature plantings behind the fence U of of of at least U what do we say five feet high 54 five at least 54 uh be be used in that Landscaping plan uh and the plan be uh um uh carried out so that the plantings be as dense as feasible U maintaining the plants and that then that the entire Landscaping plan be subject to a covenant that would run with the land uh for the maintenance of the plan the Covenant to be in favor of the city uh and the city's designes which presumably be the HBC I'm sorry this is such a long condition um but that that would be the condition to the um to the approval motion that I make did I miss something I I think we we do have some public here um to I think make some comments which the board has the discretion to open up and consider before we take a vote fine I just made the motion to seconded and people can talk about it all they want yeah open to the public is there is there a second to my motion well let's let's hear from the public if do you want to do you want to withraw hold hold your motion for a second and then we can revisit it I I withdraw the motion uh subject to the right to make it again sure there I'm only asking this when we were at the planning board level there a lot of public comment related to the zoning criteria I mean if there can be an instruction I I really don't want to get into it related to lock coverage and I don't know what body I don't know what they're going to say we'll have to make it would think it would be appro we're I will I will say that there was discussion of setbacks and things like that we're here to talk about streetscape and the impact on the historic district so I would ask the applicant and any members of the public to focus their comments on what we're here to discuss tonight standard please for visibility thank you would go to the mic would you turn make sure the mic is turned on it's green and we need your name and your address hey um Thomas scandin 128 decer Street how do you spell your last name sir I'm sorry s c a n l a n thank you good okay so my name is Thomas scanland I'm writing writing speaking on behalf of my entire family my brother's here uh the owners of 128 decer Street my grandmother bought our Decor Street home in the late 1950s my mother and my Aunt Marie went acquired the house in 1967 my first job was at flank Frank's Playland my security social security card has one 128 Decor Street as my address so I know the block I know the character of the community I remember when the parcel of land in question was the Glenwood Annex a decer street address I remember when it was a drive-thru bank then a retail store then a vacant isore for years Frank and Lois Kuro the previous owners bought the property and turned it into a showcase for the street at considerable expense and effort asking nothing in return countless V visitors to Cape May stopped to admire and photograph this private Garden every single day I watched people do it today if you allow the pool to be installed so it's more than a fence it's a pool um the attractive feature will be gone forever instead we we will have an inground pool concrete or pav patio absente landlords who with absolutely no supervision of how that pool will be utilized remember this is a whole house rental the owners are never there I want to emphasize that the majority of the impacted houses on decar street 130 128 126 124 122 are family homes not rental units a pool Direct ly across the street from our house will have a negative impact on my lifestyle and that of my neighbors it will in my in Impact my ability to enjoy my property now how do I know this so where I live in Maryland our neighbor behind us has a pool and it's easily three times the distance way farther away than on decada street and there's a huge stand of huge tall trees in between a lot bigger than some Hol so we cannot see the pool but we can hear it loud and clear so if you live on in Cape May and you know how sound carries and if you know decer Street you know how busy and how loud it can be now so let's not add the potential cacophony of an inground swimming pool just the noise alone from a pool will have a negative impact on our street so I respectfully suggest that you review uh the Kate May historic design standards page five states that the purpose of the standards is to ensure that cap May preserves its Rich architectural Heritage for future Generations so the visibility of an inground pool chairs maybe umbrellas concrete the patio are hardly Victorian hardly historic and in regards to visibility remember page 12 of your standard states that vegetation seasonal foliage and fencing are not considered as they may be removed over time so in other words the concession that the owners of the empress made do not in any way address the issues at hand visibility or the noise pollution so in closing the street address of the empress is huge hu street so technically the area for the proposed pool is a back or side yard but historically the lot in question had a decer street address and from decer street from our homes it's a front yard visible from the street so we we ask that you deny the permit for the construction of the swimming pool and while the pool may not violate the standard the the letter of the the ordinances it certainly violates the intent and spirit of the HPC HPC design standards sorry and just and just to add I was at the planning meeting and the only reason it passed planning is because they felt their hands were tied by the ordinance and they they many members stated that well look we're going to let everybody make a record tonight including the applicant okay thank you I want to add one little thing for my ad he's not done oh I I I would just say that generally folks when when we have a city council meeting we'll we'll usually keep our com public comments to five minutes and and we'll allow some latitude if there's some you know rational basis for that and you're touching on something but I I if if you have made these comments before I would just if if it's about the standards and you were hitting on that at the end so that's when my ears perked up yeah well I yeah okay so so I read them so I I can can be done other than Marie went who has been owned it since 1967 could not be here tonight and she just wanted me to emphasize and and that's a legitimate object objection if if if somebody's here we can hear testify from personal knowledge but we can't have oh somebody said something or you know we'll do thanks thank you sir thank you counselor two counselor my name is Mark sucher Jane lions and I own 124 deer street can you spell your last name for me sir of course s u c h e r thank you um let me just start by saying the reference to page 12 and the fact that um Greenery shrubbery and fences are not considered ative of an issue having to do with Victorian um environment is probably the most Germaine issue right here uh counselor in the presentation has proceeded to present before this commission a solution um I agree with my neighbor Tom that it does not actually address the issue of keeping Victorian because again in your own guidelines it is the what they're offering is something that is in fact considered not important and and changeable mutable if you will um I happen to agree that by Framing the argument this way it seems that as they went across the whole commission everybody was narrow narrowly focusing on only this solution um we have a we have not only 124 de cater street we have 516 Carpenters Lane we have worked with this particular commission before you've come up with very creative Solutions and required of us Creative Solutions to make that a part of uh you know the Central District it's the home of the peanut butter company just to give you a proper reference and I would suggest that as you consider your solution to this problem I would ask that you not be limited by their narrowing of your focus which is a classic way to just push something through we're asking you to take a little more time be a little more inventive require of them to be more inventive because what they're doing right now is basically a taste of in my personal opinion Wildwood and so you're you're you know you're not doing anything particularly inventive you're saying oh we accept your solution it's not it's not necessary for you to do that so as you consider this it may be a little more bit more work on your part but it is a permanent solution when a pool goes in the ground they do not come out when plantings are made when patios are laid down they do not move unless somebody forces to them or they find that they are not economically viable anymore I've never known a pool to come out of the ground so as you consider this it's not just holes and holes have a very slow rate of growth you sir know that and even if you get giant ones they die they get disease you can see through them and a 4-foot fence uh with a swimming pool splashing behind May create a um attractive nuisance but that's a different kind of liability between the owners and their insurance company not an attractive nuisance so as I said I'm asking on behalf of all the neighbors who are residents across the street to not just be limited by their Solutions but ask them to be more inventive continue this discussion with them I'm sure you can come up with a positive solution that will actually benefit both The Wider notion of historic Kate may as well as decator Street in particular thank you so much thank you anybody else anyone else sir you're the applicant right I am okay yeah sorry you want to come stand with me buddy sure all right thanks this is my son Avery my wife Cinda my daughter Raven um we're opening it up to everybody yeah just if if you're gonna speak we got to get into the microphone I was going to give uh you want us to summarize if this is part of your summation that's fine I I'll I'll speak on behalf of our family if my son wants to add something that's great um I I I appreciate the comments from from the board um we felt just just to identify the speaker you're Jason I I I'm Jason K the applicant C is how you pronounce that correct yep CL is how you pronounce this all right can you guys not hear me I'm sorry this is we're making a transcript right now potentially so I just want to make sure whoever's speaking identifies themselves understood so I I heard the uh the comments by the board members with respect to uh you know the heights of of of the plantings and making sure that it is in fact um going to you know uh hide the the view of the pool as the standards in the in the town state that they have to and we went into this process knowing that and have no problem you know with that um you know for us this you know this is um you know it's a family home it's a home that we use about two weeks a year we wish we could use it more our kids are very young they're very involved you know so we can't get here as often as we want when we're not here we do rent it and uh and without doing that we we couldn't afford our home at all so we're grateful that we have the opportunity to own it um we're blessed um Mr Mrs Ciro that we bought the house from did a tremendous job um building a a wonderful Masterpiece we really feel like the what we're going to do is going to enhance the property um not take anything away uh we have a a a garden uh in in the side rear yard of the property uh and it is often photographed um but what no one has you testified about and and this is this our issue is the owners this Garden is is a is a trespassing issue quite frankly um you know the public doesn't realize that it's not public property they come on to the property particularly during the busy season they bring in food wrappers beer bottles they leave them in the garden and then it invites raccoons and Vermin and everything else into the garden both when we're there and when guests are there and it you know there there currently isn't a way to keep people out of that area so after we bought the property and started realizing this we we said look you know we we want to do something for our kids we want to do something for us to to enhance the property so that we can enjoy our own space you know and uh and currently it's it's a it's a safety issue people walk in and out of the property all the time some of them realizing they're trespassing and many of them don't and that's something that I don't think anyone realized you know it's not just people taking pictures they leave behind evidence of you know of they're coming there so um so you know that that to us is is a concern and I wanted to make sure that you guys knew that you know so um know otherwise and you know the other thing too I wanted to make sure people realized also is that this part of the property was was a drive-through Bank it was you know this this part of the property actually wasn't part of the home that was built in 1885 originally this was a bank that was came off of Washington Mall was and was divided into two two lots 25 years ago so you know there there there is no historical significance of that particular part of the property you know at all um so uh we have no problem with the comments uh and with you know maintaining the property and having they're having a you know a covenant for the Landscaping moving forward and um you know this property is our our pride and joy and we'll make sure that we maintain it as such thank you anyone else ma'am are you raising your hand to speak please step up to the microphone if you like I'm sorry Chris just need need your name and address in the microphone Chris yes so we closed public comment and now we're opening it again right that was no he was he was trying to see if anybody else wanted to speak so ma'am if you want to speak go ahead I it's kind of high thank you so thank you okay yeah I'm good uh and let me just before she speaks this is a regular how we got here so if anybody wants to say their peace let's get it out now put it on the record and allow the board to make a full decision so go ahead ma'am I'm sorry it's okay um Jane lions and I'm 124 Decay Street 60 years ago we won we really came be before it was really what it is now so that but everybody knows that I just want to just help them that if you want to put in a pool and you are afraid that something is going to go wrong you just put up with people who are going with their whatever bottles of beer whatever is coming in I've never seen it happen by the way but um that just make it easy when your people are coming put a a gate and lock it and give them the key I mean it's not going to be a big deal to have people sitting on the I can streamline this where're this board is not in the business of considering trespassing and trash cans and well I was just trying to help them I and I understand that but I'm just we're just talking do you have any comments that you want to make about the streetcape or how that pool's going to look from the street is that anything that you want yes I I've taken so many pictures over the years and over the last uh months because I knew that this was going to be happening again I mean this okay um and I've drowned pictures of how it might work and so it worked without having to have things that aren't going to grow in time for this or but to make it just small if it has to be it doesn't have to be that big and that all of those there are so many things that can be done but it's not being done and it needs to be looked at that very very carefully and thank you thank you ma'am anyone else very quick John scanland SCA an LA and 128 decer Street I would like to make one correction the drive-in Bank used to be a house before it was a drive-in Bank um also if you look at the even side of decer street it's residential and I think a pool would be completely inappropriate with the character of the street thank you thank you is there anybody else in this room that wants to speak on this going once going twice public comment is closed Mr aenh Houser we did have some other public comment here after I said I was going to give you a chance to give your closing statement here so do you have anything that you want to add well I just Chris to touch on a few things I think a lot of the issues part of the concern I had when public comment was opened was that there zoning related issues they're not historic design standard issues um the issues related to to noise or shrinking a pool when the lock coverage that we have is 18% below where we're allowed to be some of these things that people want are just selfish in nature they're not required and I do not believe anyone cited to anything during public comment that indicates that what we're doing does not comply with the designed standards I know people had an opinion but it had seemed that that opinion differed than what many of the members of this board brought up earlier during Del liberations as well I just think for those reasons a lot of the issues that were brought up were just not relevant to where why we're here tonight before this body I I have one question um for the applicant but through you we talked about uh the potential for a deed restriction Covenant a deed Covenant yes um in connection with approval with the the comments that I heard tonight were 5 feet 4 Ines in height M planting at planting planting at planting mature specimens you know a continuous Landscaping buffer and then the return that uh Mr Becker referenced to that's not shown on the plan now but referenced that yes where it turns back in toward the if you're walking from the beach toward the area of the ugly mug you would have a chance to see that if you didn't add an additional Landscaping in that return is the applicant would the applicant propose to this board that they would agree to that Covenant as as a condition of approval and meeting all those conditions and and understanding understanding that understanding that that would be a continuous obligation and so that if the failure of that Landscaping were to occur and you could see the pool see through it the HPC offic just to give you an example the HPC officer could go out there with a copy of the the approval and say you're now in violation because this is no longer continuous and and you need to keep and maintain that so it would be a covenant running with the land so long as that pool is there that pool is there and it would be in favor of city the city city of Kate May and if it were to be any proposal to change that would have to come back to this board so with with those with that framework in mind that's the type of thing that I could see the board entertaining from a legal standpoint would the applicant accept those as a condition and agree to those yeah yes okay I so I I I was going to make a motion before I made it um I withdrew it but before I make it again I I'd like to make another statement I I think the question of pools is very divisive in this town um and there is a a concern about how appropriate they are in various sections including the historic district which is very large I don't think this is the time to make a statement that people in the historic district are not entitled to have pools so so I I think if if the city really wants to to approach that issue this is a bigger than an HPC issue and it needs to be done on a city-wide basis by the city council establishing um rules with respect to pools going forward I don't think that that that that the having a pool per se is a violation of our design standards I think the pool has to fit within the design standards and I think even though people have mentioned the idea that there is a noise concept and and but the streetcape is primarily a visible thing and I think the standard and the dominating part of the standard is the visibility standard with respect to this pool uh and and and we are here I think not to deny automatically a pool um even even though it it may be an inconvenience uh to some it's it's permitted people have a right to use their land um and I think our job here is to allow that pool to be put in subject to compliance with our standards pools are mentioned in our standards and and the primary place where they are addressed is visibility and so from my standpoint uh provided we are effective with respect to reducing and eliminating the visibility of this pool I'm in favor of it being put in so I will make the motion that the application as submitted tonight be approved but it be approved with respect to the pool having the condition of a landscaping plan a thorough Landscaping plan um with mature plantings with the return being covered uh and that that plan um in fact that rather than simply stated here as a condition that that plan be subject to Running With The land for so long as the pool is part of the property um it will be run and and be recorded as as a covenant uh to be maintained it be in favor of the city and its design and and I would say that the final Landscaping plan because we're talking about mature plantings here and I know you're going to go back and redo that final Landscaping plan be submitted to our Review Committee so that it can be finalized and and and encapsulated in the Covenant that and I'm sorry if that's too long a motion but that's my motion do I have a second do I have a second do I have another motion well I have a comment if I may Mr chairman well that might that might um have an impact on the motion so um one of the things that occurs to me is it's really important that when one makes a mistake to to acknowledge it and I made a mistake thank you gentlemen for your presentation because on page 45 as I said our role here is to make sure that what is being approved is in compliance or not with our standards so unfortunately I was only reading from page 45 of our standards say that elements such as pools should be located in a rear side yard yard and be not visible from the public RightWay but as these gentlemen pointed out on page 12 of our standards there's a whole section on visibility and unfortunately by the letter of the law of these standards not visible is defined as not able to be seen by a person standing in any public thoroughfare vegetation comma seasonal foliage comma and fencing are not considered as they may be removed over time therefore I can no longer support this by virtue of the definition in our own standards and and John that means they can be removed unless they're covered by a covenant they can't be removed this Covenant runs with the land we we have another issue here and I I disagree with your observation about sound I'm sorry you disagree with your your earlier comment about sound in fact the architect um explained that the Landscaping would um uh help sound proof a swimming pool is by definition especially in a rental property uh is and and the people that are renting have I would agree they're they on vacation they're partying they should um but it's it's loud and streetscape includes sound when you walk around Cape May in the evening um or you you live in the historic district um one of the uh noticeable issues is how quiet it is and that um you uh have the enjoyment or the the historic provenance of of not people celebrating and loud and cheering and doing all those things this is not Wildwood this is Kate may this is National Historic Landmark um and I don't think that the pool meets the standard um um the standard has been been read a couple times um uh this this very board has applied Perpetual covenants with respect to landscaping and other coverage to approve coverage we're talking about streetcape which is more than that for example um I I already discussed the sound the city happens to have sound ordinances with respect to violations of those ordinances and they are police a whole different issue and and so I don't I don't agree well could be that you have your view I have mine well um I think uh the historic preservation view is is the dominant one in this instance this is a National Historic Lamark City the other thing is when we talk about landscaping and normally when sidey guard pools are set back further in the Landscaping is is uh the idea is to buffer it the idea of landscaping um and with the victorians was in fact uh to enhance the the property was to provide a garden like environment and building a great big barrier is is not the Landscaping that is envisioned when we talk about streetscape so I don't think this meets the standard at all but yeah do apparently your fellow Commissioners agree with with you because there's been no second to my motion I'll second your motion well thank you and that your motion improve um included the forfoot fence correct Jim in it it included the application with a 4-foot fence the extensive uh buffering and uh and and the mature use plus plus coverage so that the pool was not visible okay thank you motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr copelan Mr copelan uh no for all the reasons that I've stated and it's not necessary to repeat um um by way of a sidebar discussion though the garden that is um you're concern about being protected from from citizens not realizing that it's a private property um a fence is is appropriate and is easily um approved either as part of this or something else so um to the pool to the pool uh I'm I'm no Mr Becker no and I apologize for my earlier error Mr Stevenson um I add a few problems with this the um even though the address is 501 Hughes in reality the decada street side really looks like the front of the house it's much more grander than the Hugh Street side and for passers by that's the front of the house I've always felt it kind of jarring when I walk past there and there's seven cars parked right up to the sidewalk and I like well how how did this get here in the historic district but that Garden offset that and it provided a buffer between the commercial District of the mall and the residential area along uh thear street so your vote so my point is that I'm not objecting to the pool as much as I am the removal of the garden so it's a is it a yes or a no Jake it is let let me it's important that each of the board members explain their vote so please finish what your your thought was okay and because that offset the harshness of the parking in the front so I'm not objecting to the pool as much as I am the removal of the garden I believe that def fence would be appropriate if the garden is kept there in no pool so my vote is no thank you sorry about that Miss bagno make sure you turn your mic on sorry thank you although earlier I seemed inclined another way uh I have two points to make one I was not aware that it was a whole house rental I was thinking of a pool that was part of a family pool more quiet more of a sense of retreat something of that nature and you all say we all say it is not contributing but when I was a little girl that house belonged to our plumber Richard Bell and his wife Lorraine and it sat on that corner and it was a Dusty white and there were trees all over the place Mr Bell died and she started to date a man by the name of Charlie Shields and that's how it became the Bell Shields house and to me it was always something as if we'd see in Savannah or Charleston Historic cool warm not a lot of Hardscape and for those reasons the whole house rental and the fact that I do feel that we should keep it more in with what it was my answer is no thank you Mr Tesa um I I feel like I've made my position clear before I think the um applicant has submitted an application that meets our design standards I believe they focus on visibility I believe that they've offered sufficient um uh undertakings to to maintain the pool from being invisible I think the issue of having pools or not in the historic district is not for ours uh obviously I'm going to vote Yes in favor of my motion Miss Wilson stck um I'm going to vote no um for the reasons that Mr Becker determined uh and that were stated by the community about the Landscaping not being a true um buffer for visibility sake but also in looking at the property report when this property that be remembers as a contributing and I also remember it that way why it was removed the survey says the new large addition on the rear is countered to the prevalence of less architectural detail and smaller proportions the further back on the buildings this house can be used as a local example of creating a false sense of history when altering an historic structure for these reasons this house can now be considered to a non-contributing house in Kate may this is exactly what we are trying to work against on this board it's not easy and I think that when we talk about a pool we made a mistake not to notice that that was part of the original application it went through review that was on us that is an error and we apologize but if I had seen on the list of approved and review pool I definitely would have made a deeper effort at looking at what this was all about and I'm sorry I didn't notice it in May because I I do empathize with the frustration you must have going through so many different hearings and confusing answers so that's my response Mr hammeron um I also am very sorry that we're at this position where we're going back again and again and again to the well um I I am fine with the um uh the fence but I would uh respectfully decline the pool um I think part of that reasoning is that if our duty is to preserve the historic um nature of K may I think that um adding the pool in that location um really is maybe enhancing the value of the house but it is not contributing to to the historic nature and character of K May um and therefore I I can't see to approve that thank you I make a request for the transcript now or how should I make that I mean you can you know you know what you can do yep yep so just for the record the the motion fails um and the application's denied thank you next order of business 7 Ocean Street uh LLC 7 Ocean Street block 1056 lot 13.02 this is a key contributing house that wants to introduce a vinyl porch enclosure okay would you make sure your mic is on um and we need your name and your relationship to the property please yeah hi my name is Manny deudas I'm the managing member excuse me for a second excuse me can we have silence over here stop stop sorry that's okay sorry uh my name's Manny jutus uh I'm the managing member of s Ocean Street LLC better known as the an Kate May um and my address in Kate May is 22 Ocean Street I'm Dwayne rich way the general manager of the N of Cap May thank you thank you for hearing us um we uh the inate May um we've are have embarked over the last two years on um the complete restoration of our 130 year 130 130 year old hotel um uh so we've in various stages of of that uh what we recognized is we uh when we took over this this endeavor we committed to a year round being open year round um we felt that it was in the best health of our employees uh and the community itself to um you know muscle through uh the and create and and create a standard experience for 12 months a year and so we've done that and and it's been it's it it's been very beneficial for us in the fact that we're able to keep our employees we're able to keep our employees working we're we're able to do all these things one of the we're able to maintain a level of life in the building at 130 years we closed down for the first year we closed down for Christmas break and we had $26,000 wor the busted pipes so we realized pretty quickly that we we should keep people in the building as much as possible but having said that what we realized is is that in the wintertime um because of because of our because how how we are situate on Ocean Street uh that we have a natural Wind Block on from the northern wind in our rotunda which is the round part of our porch and so uh we walked we we went around town and saw other historic buildings and said you know is there a way that we can in the off seon block the wind still maintain the view view from the porch not violate fire not violate egress and and and you know entry and exit um and uh and and kind of create give us more seating that had that still continues to view so what we propose today uh being very very considerate of the beautiful nature of our building is uh to create a temporary enclosure for the winter months only that is uh near invisible as it pertains to it will be invisible as it pertains to the handrailing system and and and and the like and then have a drop- down canvas clear plastic um um from the from the bottom of the porch uh ceiling to the top rail uh panel system so that we we can keep the heat in we expand our dining doesn't it doesn't expand it ites it doesn't expand it greatly but it it creates a warm space we already have heaters underneath the crawl space because that's where all of our magic happens uh so we have a naturally heated um space and so that's that's why we're here to answer any questions um this is the anate May is one of three National register buildings that we've restored so very very familiar and and actually uh very appreciative of this of the mission of this group yeah um normally we we go around the room and um um try to get a broad experience for you in this instance though this uh came before the Review Committee this application um um we shared with you at the time that um this is a key building um and um we would expect it to continue to meet the standards that that are provided vinyl in the your proposal uh is not appropriate U for uh a contributing building let alone a key building and we had suggested that you and we gave you some addresses to take a look at um on on how you might deal with the issue um you you either didn't do that or you rejected those those ideas but I think there's a way for you to achieve your objective um um but not with the product that you're proposing um it uh doesn't come close to meeting our standards and uh I would um I again suggest you take a look at the properties that we suggested and come back with a a a a proposal that would be closer to meeting our standards um having said that rather than go around the room I'll simply open it up to the um uh HPC uh does anyone have an observation or I have a question um in the application talks about um temporary how how temporary is temporary I mean do you temporar is yeah is is is winter season late fall winter season early spring um the reason that I I'd really like to dig dig into the the building the materials because um outside of that short window which is now till till March whenever The North Wind changes to the south wind um uh you know it all has to go away it all you know what keeps us warm in the winter and and still maintains the visibility of the porch um you know it has to be it has to be gone I'm just trying to understand that that if there were something that were visible H how long you would expect it to be up that's the only thing that will be visible from the street will be the will be the clear uh the clear I understand you're revealing the the railings and and but I'm interested in knowing we talking mid October to Mid April thank you yeah thank Max weather dependent that was the whole point is getting but but I mean you're really talking about half the time right yeah about half the time thank you and we chose we chose the uh we chose the clear plastic beh to set behind the railing system because you don't see it it it affected but at least you see the railings well you you won't but and you won't see the clearness it'll just it just acts as a wind so if you're walking down the street but you do have doors and things that that those yes people yeah people have to pass through those which is yeah and if you'll go further through it the door it it's showing each of those exhibits is showing what the structure would be but then if you go further into it the door would be fully clear as you mentioned y'all gave us some guidance when we were last in front of you so I went to that door option uh with uh pushpull Hardware it would be uh painted white to match the building yeah we wouldn't we wanted to we're we we we the the reasons if we could if it wasn't for egress and Ingress you know that we wouldn't have doors we would we would just you know we would have a much more suitable temporary structure um but we have to get people on an off um and so that's why yeah that that was that's the sole reason for them and they are temporary when I say they're temporary it will be it will be for the time period that Dwayne said uh it's really to block the wind and not the view from the outside in or the inside out no I I understand that and that's that's not an objection um trying to maintain a view and blocking the wind I th this is not close to the kind of application you would expect on a keep property I so other comments from the MR chairman commission can I yeah because it wasn't quite clear you you were talking about that round area on the porch and I saw there was some sort of description in here about including the doors at the top of the ramp is this also going to continue around um to the entrance of the Inn no so it stops it stops it stops at the next flat um portion I don't know how to is there a there's a step up right there is that where it stops right yeah right that area Okay okay so it's only really that round area and then one straight and then one straight okay I just it I I wasn't we hardle on that get it on paper and if I may to just comment on I know what you're speaking of and we did not ignore your suggestions I know what the Virginia hotel has installed I used to work there so I know what they did we don't have the luxury of having all straight sides they have straight panels they encased acrylic in molding and they hung them from hooks that is very simple to do we have rounded majority of our porches rounded so we were trying to find a solution with the clear vinyl very minimal 6in you know reveal around it in the same color of the building to be able to do those rounded sections otherwise we would do a straight panel exactly and more importantly than that to give you the nature of how temporary this is um we didn't want a permanent structure when there's a beautiful day we can roll we can roll we can then roll that V that vinyl up and hide it behind the fascia of the P of the rounded porch so we we understand the the we we really don't want to see it we you know when I say we don't want to see it we want it we want it not to be a distraction to the beautiful building but the roundness allows us causes us to have a use a more flexible a more flexible application um and when we get above 50 degrees we can we can roll all those top panels up which you wouldn't see and therefore you wouldn't see any of the enclosure other comments so anyone yes I'm I'm sorry guys we talked about this in uh review and the documentation you've submitted unfortunately I can't really discern what it is you're trying to do I get it but the extent of the work that you're doing would really require a floor plan showing where precisely you are planning on putting this for two reasons one is for us to understand it yeah actually three reasons second is so that somebody can actually build it and third so that our inspector when he or she in this case he goes out into the field to review and approve what's being put in the field he has a document that he can refer to and say Yep this this is what was approved with what we have here we there's nothing here that would be sufficient enough for our for us to approve or for our inspector to verify in the field so with that said go ahead sorry um I'm assuming and this is why I prefaced it by saying everything I did that this is probably the most accurate depiction of what it is you're attempting to do is that correct that's correct for the top portion the bottom the bottom is not bottom clear so from the rail up it's a 6in vinyl border of that dark blue or gray color as it mentions in the exhibit there's a gray yeah the gray that's not the exact coloror on the with the the clear acrylic film zipping into the edge of the 6in border is that correct and is that a separate piece above the railing from what happens below the railing yes that's and what's happening below the railing it's just clear it's absolutely clear okay so a couple of things that would really help would be first of all I understand your problem with the Curve that's really the only issue why you couldn't use something more rigid right correct however you could use something more rigid if you did it in segments it's what how things used to be constructed all it depends Cur but I would I would at least explore that and show us I think we really need to see a section cut through like we talked about in review from the ceiling all the way down to the deck it shows us in detail exactly what that's going to look like because it says C channels but I'm looking where do the C channels go are they a fixed to the railing are they a fixed to the columns are they fixed to the Head where are they like where are they and how big are they right and then doors where are the doors so I I can't make heads or tail I'm sorry guys I just can't understand what you're submitting and if you guys could really document that well um and eliminate as much as possible this this opaque vinyl because the vinyl is entirely inappropriate um well so here you bring up a great question and and and I love your input um the reality is that the curve in or if you're going to do a more rigid structure which we're not interested in doing a more rigid structure because that's how temporary this is and we would want and we would want the option to make all that vinyl that unsightly vinyl disappear up into the eastes which is naturally there you can't see I mean again great if I gave you a floor plan You' be like oh yeah you know exactly what you're talking about and a detail show me exactly exactly if I gave you a cross detail which which is our fault we'll make sure we do that but if we do something Str rigid yeah you introduce every every bad element that you don't want okay you you introduce cross beams you enter multiple pieces I'll buy it you've convinced me okay right fair enough um it's it's the it's the opaque vinyl piece that this particular design is mandating that I don't think is appropriate so you're talking about you're talking about the on the outside yeah yeah yeah so that's why I asked if this if this is depicting what it is you're actually proposing above the r yeah it's that it's that opaque border that it's the Border yeah yeah that's adding a whole new layer that is not I don't think appropriate with or I would say conducive to the character of that building so I think that if you could do it even in this film with in in a let's call it a rigid channel that you can't see and basically make the Border disappear I think you got a chance as we talked about we can make the Border white it's going to fall behind the main columns anyway so you'll so you'll still see you did that I think you'd be on the right track me excuse me let me understand you're saying that that changing the channels or borders to something else would there's two different things there's the channel which is the the the piece into which the vinyl retracts or not right that's correct that's what I can't tell cuz I can't see a detail got it DET I'm I'm hearing or understanding that vinyl itself is objectionable no it's to me it's the op vinyl not not to not from you but from others it's the opaque vinyl because what we asked you to go look at of course was the Virginia you're right yeah we did you're right they have it's it's all straight there so it's much easier very lucky everything's at a 90° angle you guys have a bigger challenge come to my house that's the aesthetic effect I think that we're seeking and you got think you guys are creative enough to find a way to do that so I think what we can do if we can convince them that vinyl because of the temporary and the rollup nature of it if we put if we use the B if that border is white and we hide that behind each column then you'll see the column behind the border and you'll see the whole rail system you'll see everything and all the channels will just have to show them that all the channels are hidden up in the ceiling which you can't see anyway I think you're on the right track which is what we discussed yeah so we could do one of two things we could make a motion to table if they want to come back we do or or I could make a motion to approve it in which case you would all vote it down probably well based on the current documation I I was just trying to try I was trying to just extend my record established earlier this evening for you all but but um motion to table with before before we before we do um you got some comments here tonight guys would you want some more time to maybe process this and come back to the board yeah we probably would like to even could do another work session before we come back um I would invite you to do that you know like so we can we can get it we can get everything get everybody on the same page because I don't think we're going to get away from Vinyl if we if we don't go with listen we can go with a hard plastic but now you're going to introduce every structure that we don't want yeah um but we have to hide the borders we can show the channels if we do that in the next Workshop then you'll get a sense that okay you're on the right track you're not on the right track because we want to try to get this done so procedurally we're under a time crunch to make a decision we can give you an extension right you can yeah I I just want to know you know we could do next next regular meeting which will give you time to go to A Tuesday meeting and maybe come back next month yes so you want to do to the next regular meeting of the HPC yes okay so I do have one other question on those curved sections and I I do understand this challenge believe me um there is the ability to use curved acrylic more rigid that is fixed and you apply it and take it off on season and offseason that would prohibit though your desire to want to roll it up so my question about the rolling up piece is is are you envisioning this layer this film to be taut around that curve yeah okay so it's not going to be fluttering like a curtain so that means it's going to have to be a top channel and a bottom channel in other words to hold it in place right that's what yeah that's what this exibit okay and that's what I couldn't tell is what the so what what's the channel in the railing it's in your packet so the channel so the the top channel sits in inside the inside the the fascia of the porch and the bottom sits below the hand the hand rail up underneath the handrail of of the porch rail that's why I want to see so you H so it's all so everything's hidden all you you don't see you don't see either from the street but that channel when it's when the acrylic is removed the channel stays in place year round is that correct no no oh no okay good this is what we need to see no it's all Grom no no no it's all and the and the hard plastic the hard acrylic on the bottom yeah that get zipped out and stored everything goes away all we need to see are those details so so in the event that the applicant doesn't make the next meeting do I still need to do a motion to table subject to the 45 day R waiver it's they'll be we commit to be in the next meeting that's what it says on that form that you would wave the time for decision yourself to the next regular meeting and then uh do I have a motion to table Yeah I think that's what we're going to do right yeah okay so motion to table the application uh subject to the applicant um waving the 45-day rule thanks second must somebody else did it already no if I if I can make a quick comment too I mean gentlemen I hear what you're saying about you know you want it up five months or something or last or six months or less but let me just point out that one of the things that that we have to think about too on this side is what are you going to do when you have a week of really squally weather and you go you know what that would be really good to put that stuff up right now and keep the thing going in the middle of the summer oh God so just that's yeah iate we're focused so much on the material that we're talking about here and how easy it is or not easy it is to put up or Kevin I'm focused on temporary so and we are too I mean we are you know and and we wouldn't even be before you if it wasn't for the beautiful architecture of the 1890s where everything is at a weird angle so nobody would actually build a building like this and so and so no nobody so it just makes it easier for our diners to join the room well your building is our poster child for gorgeous window that's a bad she's a bad girlfriend she is without motion to table was made and seconded we have a motion we have to the table we have a second motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Testa yes Miss B yes Miss Wilson Str yes Mr hammerin thank you thank you thank you thank you for your time new business CMC of Kate May LLC 721 Beach Avenue block 1064 lot 16 non-contributing building this is about a railing and a pool fence [Laughter] you want to touch it would you uh turn on your mics please and then the three of you I need your name and your relationship to the property my name is Gwen Finley I own the heritage in and Kate May uh my name is Scott Johnson I'm contract dor and project manager for the heritage in say your name my name is Eric benar I'm one of the owners of the heritage in thank you take it away all right I'd like to give you some pictures here so you can see this is our current building yes we will but what I'm trying to do here is we have a lot of wood railing we've owned that building for over 50 years this is want to pass that way right here pass that way and over those over those 50 years we've had to replace several several times wood um post spindles spindles sections etc etc because the wood will it absorbs the water we're right across the street from the beach front area so it gets a lot of wear and tear um I get it painted in sand it I get it replaced it's just becoming an expense that I see one of those pictures is costing us as a small business safety a lot and it's a safety Factor people will sit and push their feet against the rail if they're sitting on the rocking chairs out front and they'll break one of those or so I've decided that perhaps we could use vinyl instead and I know that even though we're in Kate May we are non-contributing but still historical I guess in Kate may remember we had that discussion yeah yes so my my plea is that you would let us just replace the wood railing same for same I'm not changing the design or anything the same spindles same spindles same everything it'll meet all the height requirements all the distant requirements I have I have two comments um first looking at your pictures the the way a wood railing is done appropriately is the bottom um uh is got a V shape and each of um the spindles then is cut on the vshape to fit which sheds water that's the way it was done um During the period of significance and um wood railings will last um uh countless years uh when they're uh constructed correctly in that fashion secondly um I appreciate you're bringing in a sample um one of the things that makes the vinyl really clear that it's um artificial is the the way it's hanging on on to the um a vertical those big bulky clamps what we have approved in in the past on non-contributing buildings is to build it stick built with um with a um vinyl material what does that what does that mean I'm not sure piece by piece by piece the the connector piece is what makes is advertises piece part that bothers you what is the sck yeah you can buy you can buy um solid vinyl material that you would install the same way you would install wood um that would have the wood look which can be appropriate on a non-contributing property in the historic district um and there's several manufacturers that you buy the raw material so the head for example it comes in an 8 10 12 foot lengths and just like wood you would cut it to to length and and it wouldn't have that shine the other thing with vinyl is this shine especially in the sunshine it's obvious vinyl whereas the product that I'm talking about um is is has a a normal do you know the name of it look it well we we want to market products at at the HPC there's there's so I can do some research you yeah you can do there's several examples and you'll see it as soon as you see it what is the product called you know like what would I it's a different manufacturers there's more than one I I believe if you go to any of the um big box places or if you go to Kate May Lumber or something they can show you the the material um it it has characteristics of wood you install it just like wood the only difference is it won't rot and and it doesn't have to be painted it is correct yes so you guys are also um wanting to replace the chain link fence around the pool correct if we do this if I do this I was going to match whatever it is that I do for the rest to the pool Ching the chain link f yeah but no you'll be able to use the material for the fence yeah if we can do that same stuff I would do this same around the pool yeah cuz there's no sense I thought that would just update I thought it would update the pool and make it look a little nicer now that's a big Improvement the street one of the I mean one of the concerns here is that you have so much railing I know it's it's it's miles of railing so so the the fact that you would put prefabbed vinyl on it and while we as the chairman said we've allowed vinyl non-contributing structures this would be a prominent display of prefabbed so you want it to just not be shiny well we want it to look like wood right we want it to look like it like wood that was inst I would do that in heartbeat in the period of significance yeah and the material is available so so basically you're you're doing the design to look like it should and the materials are not how they they kind of go through that's what they want okay but they only concern is then there won't be we'd have to find out there's aluminum in here which is for our safety fact well we're talking about is a solid material it's solid oh you want like AAC so like a track like a track a a there they're you just don't want V the question is I don't know if TR comes in white well there's I mean there's a lot of solid stuff that comes in whitec and and it's in more and more shapes every year okay and you use the same tools that you would use for wood also what if there spind like can you get spindles like this because we spind I like the look of the spindles we don't want straight straight you again that's also for you you'll see there's there's product available there is okay all right I'll do it yeah yeah I like the spind I don't like Square spindles if we're going to keep yeah all the other hotels on the beach front all have the square spindles we're Colonial so I happen to like so I kind of do what the Avendale did just different spindles yeah and your other option is is to use wood with the botum rail yeah set on a on a on an angle I would do I would that's how aend and that's how Avendale got away with doing it they have ASAC oh okay I mean part part of the reason why you may be having premature failure is you're getting too much water shed the wrong way off of things that have been not properly constructed well it's been there 50 years so well yes I understand that and I understand what it is to have a beachfront location but I also understand how important it is to have the right design to shed the water and and also you know to to Prime and to seal right we do I have painters that yeah so are really good I guess is it I'm meable to having ASAC or whatever the product is I would encourage you to take a look at what the your options are depending on pricing um do you want to table this application yeah does that mean I get to come back and ask we can go get like CU I want to get quotes that on I'll go get more samples you want me to bring you more samples well no if you if if you have a catalog you have catalog you get all the samples you want cut sheets will do just fine if you have catalog cut sheets and bring product that we're talking about like I can go to low and pick up a catalog of it okay you know so you just so eliminate I'll eliminate the shine so much better I kind of get your point that's a lot of railing so it's got a lot of shine I I AG well I mean it is it's a prodigious amount of I just want these I get it to be kind of away well they will go away with the product were talking about because you're you're going to install it like wood yeah I get it I understand yeah and I'm tickled so you don't need those connectors the Reas you need those Connors that's just wrapped around okay okay anymore well as long as I know I have Alternatives I'm thrilled so and and they're and they're better looking okay yeah I just hope I can find something not just this do I have a so a motion to table before we do that just want to make sure the applicant you you guys um want to receive some comments tonight do you want to a request to table the application wave the we have we're under a shot clock to make a decision here but you have the opportunity to say you know what I'll wave the time for decision let us go back get some uh confirmation of the materials we and make a final material selection that you can come back and present I would like to do that do you think you want to do that in the next month so maybe come back to the next monthly meeting of HC as possible okay so why don't we do this we we'll you'll the applicant requests to table the application to the next regular meeting of the HPC you'll wave the time for decision that'll give you a time to go back and how do we find out when to come back and everything it it'll just be the next yeah it's always the same my question to you is if we goal would we get would we be able to uh get approval for this tonight if we change that to what we were just showing here no I think you want to take a look at the material that's available bring the cut sheets the catalog cut sheets or sample we you know that we to see certain um bulkiness to the top Rail and things of that nature so so what would you need us to bring in additional to what you have in the packaging for next meeting just a catalog yeah cat show you what the material is that's right same the elevation you s us the section you yeah I think the good the good news for you is that it is not the design that's in question it's the materials that need to be acceptable the other good news is that I think what you're hearing is that the vinyl or composite material would be acceptable great that's fabulous okay well want it be vinyl right that's vinyl what there's definitional problems ASAC is a form of vinyl oh okay so all right it's just compressed vinyl I guess yeah so um it's a harder it gives you a chance to go back and see what works for you guys you can present that here cool and I just just add that many of those manufacturers are broadening their product lines all the time so so there really is a lot that's available in the ability to do the stick Built construction I really just have to bring the spec sheet just catalog you need to revise your application a little bit too it would just be another elevation and section of the railing showing the details of it and cut sheets of the from the catalog of the company material that you want to use the next meeting is December 16 and do I need to apply Allard again yeah I don't think you need to you need to resubmit the fee no yeah there's no additional fee that's that's what you get out of table tabling it yeah okay so so a deal Miss Finley you like to make a motion just need you to sign thanks guys thank you're welcome great you need a motion yes we need a motion J Janice would like to make a motion I mooved to table the application do I have a second second motion by motion by m mrck Thank You seconded by Mr Testa holiday thanks quen you're welcome thank that was the place our family stayed the very first time in 1957 next order of business well we didn't do a vote yet next order of business motion by motion by Miss Wilson oh we're voting sorryy [Laughter] we didn't vote yet yeah sorry we we have a we have a motion we have no I'm although she's going to be K under t Okay hold it down we're trying to get control of this rappers Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr hammeron yes thank you [Music] thank you Stevenson now we get to the highlight of the evening 233 capart very good lane block 1031 Lots 38.0 2 and 39 this is a non-contributing property we want to look at an addition Windows siding Roofing a couo doors shutters lighting at all at all and um you'll have to turn on your mic even though we know who you are you have to turn on we need your name okay my name is Joseph Stevenson I live at 233 capart Lane in Cape May City and this is my wife Gail Stevenson she also lives at 233 Kart Lane we are the owners of the property and it's our primary residence thank you take it away okay um this this building um in historic survey indicates that it was a part of a group of agricultural buildings that run along the old Cape Island Creek that included um Congress Hall Stables um it's the last remaining Barn from that area of agricultural buildings um it was once own by um eldrid Johnson who was a politician in town and also the owner of the pink house and we have that deed you know showing that he once owned it back in the somewhere around the 1960s the B was converted into a warehouse and with a second floor residential unit and then a few years after that it was converted into a full residential unit um there was a garage put on it back in the 1960s it was a 16x 20 addition and by virtue of that addition and by the fenestration with the windows it lost its contributing status the um the National Registry uh does recog recogniz though such a thing as cultural uh importance and agriculture is one of those things as well as the fact that the barn does uh remind people that at one time uh it was a hwn carriage was the preferred way for people to get around town uh it still is underneath all the 1970s siding and the cheap Kmart Windows it is a it is a 21 by 24t Barn that is made out of um Morse and Tenon so she's still under there our intent with this is to try to bring it back to help restore the appearance of the barn uh the way at least what it looked like back in the period of significance um to that end and I said this is strictly anecdotal we did receive an approval in 2018 but that was six years ago for po portions of this but tonight we've decided to bring the whole thing back and go through the whole uh process um okay the under the current APP and I'll go through the pages what we're looking to do here is it's a modest addition the addition will be in the rear of the premises you know and uh it step back on the left elevation about 4 and 1/2 ft and on the right side we will put a corner board trim that show the uh delineation between the existing building and the addition um the currently it has 1970s vital signing or that's cracked underneath that there's some asphalt uh materials that were prevalent back in the 194 40s and 50s that resemble brick underneath that it's 1X 12 and 1x10 boards that are affixed to the original beams of the building and a lot of them are hand hun uh our intent is to reclad the building um with Hardy panel um and reflecting on the um exterior cladding I'm referring to page 22 in our um in our standards that um replacement composite cladding is appropriate on non-contributing properties and additions to non-contributing properties um on page 23 uh the wood siding we have indications of the um excuse this is again referring to our our standards on page 23 they indicate type of wood solding are appropriate and it has lapped clap board and board and Baton we our plan is to reclad the front of the building the barn and bordon batten to reflect its prior usage the rear addition including the first floor which is 16 by 20 the second floor Edition will be built upon the existing footprint that will be clad in uh collap board just to provide differentation but still be complimentary in that there are a lot of buildings in the area that have the clapboard um that would have a 7in exposure uh on the board and Batton it would be 12 in on Center with 2in battens uh the trim would would be also um Hardy panel trim that would be uh 2 in would match the uh the batons so looking at the A1 we have the streetscape and our place is the little yellow place in the middle um we have the MUA across the street from it a small one-story building next to us a cottage we've had several um you know rather large places built recently in our neighborhood page A2 of Inspirations um on the bottom left hand side would show a barn from the same period which would indicate the board and Baton siding as well as a coupa on the roof so we're trying not to to be purely conjecture we are trying to look at some historical evidence of pre-existing buildings that would reflect it um at the bottom in the middle is the rain canopy which would also have a metal roof that would match the metal roof roof on our on the roof in the rear in our 16x 20 second floor Edition the top three pictures on page n two would show right now we only have one window on each side of the house the left and right side so it's very dark in there in this addition we would like it to be a bright Lightroom all three of these photos in in the top on A2 are all from buildings in Cap May on A3 more Inspirations uh we there are no gutters on the building presently and we want you know we want to put gutters on it and we would do half round which was appropriate back in that time period see here actually it's on page 19 of the standards um that most homes constructed before world were to originally featured half round or use style gutter profiles that is what we're also trying to uh put on this building would be silver or galom in color uh the the roof as I'm going to describe later is also going to be a silver color so we feel that it would kind of match that um and I on on A3 also uh on the right hand side there's a picture of a board and Baton with a metal roof and a coua which is also another inspirational picture to show of the look that we're trying to achieve here they going to be moving on to Windows next okay and with windows again I'm reflect referring to our standards book on page 26 where it says replace M vinyl Alum replacement vinyl aluminum or steel windows are appropriate only on non-contributing properties and additions to non-contributing properties and on a scale that's consistent with the historic wind Windows of the district um we we have these old 1980s windows they're pieces of junk um we uh we are going to go with Windows the jelw windows that properly reflect appear they're going to have a colonial style grids 4 over one um they will have a SIM simulated um divided light and again that's trying to project age um they will be we are requesting that they will be clad as in the same for saying for what we have and as appropriate on a non-contributing building and that's regarding the windows they will be white also they'll match the cladding of the house there no no black windows or anything like that uh the Attis roof we're looking at uh when I had spooked the last time around um I believe was Mr Carol had suggested that they be 12 in on Center again that I would make stipulation that the seam will be below one inch or one inch or below know may not be clear on the pro cut sheet but I make a stipulation it will be one inch or below I would really would have preferred to have a rolled seam but really just couldn't find one um on A6 we have the the lighting which on the side of the building we would have where the driveway is we would have two of the the steel liting went Westchester barnlight which is shielded and it's dark sky compx again we want to be right up to date with the um ordinance and the other ones on the front lighting we tried to achieve the look of kerosene or oil lamps that would have been used on a barn and they will be electric Fe but we'll have the smallest wattage that we can have just to provide a nice look like a like a flame but nothing obnoxious or and then another barn light will be up inside of the rain canopy will be hidden from you but will shed light on the door without projecting outward um we have a a large group of I mean a large group we have a some features that are really not available in catalogs um the rain canopy will be handcrafted it will feature a metal roof that matches the metal roof on the the roof um the shutters that we have on the second floor that are almost more like a hatch and that these are smaller windows will be handcrafted as well real wood um they will have the the pinl hinge and they will have shutter dogs they will be fully operational and and will be fit the opening of the window exactly um the the coupa um when I first presented this originally we had a 24x 24 Koopa and Mr Carol had suggested that it was too small for the design we went down to Kent Narrows Maryland and we purchased a handcrafted um kopa that is 3x3 by5 with a copper top on it and hopefully that's more in keeping with the scale Additionally the front door that we have there now is a gel wind F door with six panes at the top uh in order to affect the look of the barn and bring some of its historic nature back and we went to Montgomery County Pennsylvania and bought four handcrafted barn doors uh Dutch barn doors um realwood and that would be our front door the back door and the second floor door and the only other additional thing would be the the barn the hay hoist and that will just be crafted I mean in the past we've used Scotty Smith and Scott does a lot of work for us so would more than likely be him um okay and the next pages are the existing floor plan and what we did on P2 uh a lot of times you know we have presentations to come in and you have to go through a lot of pages to to compare existing versus proposed so what we've done is we've taken the existing and proposed where we can readily look down and see the changes that will be made and this the top is actually you know it's where our front and um the bottom is the proposed and again you you'll see where's the metal roof the Koopa the hatches on the windows will be small they're all going to be 28x 28 as opposed to the 28x 52 they're now and the smaller one in the middle the windows on the first floor will be unchanged as existing rear elevation uh where where I re show how there's going to be the windows and this is not correct and I will put that on record that on on the proposed rear elevation the second floor they are going to be um like 15 pane windows where where he architect had them as 4 over one that's not correct if you remember in the inspiration photos we showed you places in town where it was 15 pain 15 light Windows um now one thing again I you know this is something the commission would have to consider and I be am open to suggestions um underneath the um hay hoist we have a window pre-existing window that we would like to make it look like it was an opening where hayy would go in and we have a a again a handcrafted rough shutter there but if the if the commission would feel that we should just do a four over four like the rest of them we would do that I mean other than that I think that's our presentation thank you it's scattered as it was Jake it's not surprising that that that the presentation is clear and consistent yes with the our standards and so thank you I appreciate that um I would open it up to the uh commission does anyone have any observations or comments that they would like to make yes nicely done um even clever to change the sighting on the addition part instead of The Bard and Baton from the barn piece so it's even more distinguished as a separate so I only have one question um you answered everything else I was wanted to ask you in your presentation will you requ will you need to go to Zoning for this yes okay that's why it's concept we're here now is at the request of our attorney so you know we realized that any approval would be a con contingent upon the satisfaction of the zone of requirements I've talked with Karen Keenan and Karen indicates that you know probably January at best if not later so in order to expedite the process I think our attorney wanted us to come here first and then take it to yeah makes sense so you need conceptual approval tonight are you going yes I mean and then you know with I mean with conceptual um once I receive the um say we receive all the our zoning approvals then what would be our I before before you go there um it seems to me that that you with what you want to do in your presentation you in fact could go for final and then the question is is if zoning um request something that forces a change then you would have to come back okay that um or or or this just could be a conceptual approval which with resubmission would be done very quickly well I'm thinking to to to get a resolution and and I I think that's what our attorney was was looking for here it's Ron gunas it seems to I don't see a reason not not to go with final uh and then assuming there's no changes at zoning you you but I mean if if if zoning is not does not approve what we were have V I'm sorry Jake what was the what was the uh no you just come back say but it it more or less that would have to come back again yeah but if they approve it it would sit do you know when you intend to go to zoning have you subm I told to Karen Keenan and she's saying January at the earliest and that was several weeks ago so it may be February at this point I mean if the if the board is satisfied that this is complete enough for a final I think You' have the discretion to consider that if you like then the resolution would be the next meeting yes it just seems like I I have to say I mean this this is marked for conceptual um it it is such a good job I mean I hate to you know to to flatter you but this is this is really an excellent way of turning a structure that's had some some difficulty and and not such great care and you've now moved it to to the point where um historically it reminds us of a really nice Barn approach you've done so many things to to improve it um this is as if this were submitted for final approv I would approve it as final so so I mean other than our little rule about going to the planning board with conceptual because they might do something change understand completely so I I think it's to your advantage um I don't see a downside to going for final oh that yes I mean that would would probably be better can I ask a question just as much for my own self-education as anything else um I you're doing so much good work to take this structure back to its sort of original condition or at least you original appearance I guess I'm going to ask the question is it not what why would you why would would you consider or would you not want to take it actually to the original materials instead of like the wood clad or something like that and then re can you get back into the historic designation you know I I I've never heard of that being an option I mean that is that is not an option you can you cannot get back to no it won't it won't go back it's it's had a lot of work well and and it's it's extremely uncertain that it would I mean probably not presumably you could make a case but but there's no point in doing that J yeah we didn't entertain that you know so the only reason I asked that is you know here we are in a city where we lose a property I know you'd like to get one back recover one if that's possible you know so I just have a question for a solicitor um can we approve a final submission without zoning approval is that can we legally do that yes I I mean it's it contingent approv yeah certainly it's just like their approval will be contingent on us one of the conditions would be having zoning approval for you know what whatever is necessary for that so if there is a zoning issue and he needs to come back it would be a new a new submission is that correct if there's a CH if if there's some discussion at the zoning board about hey you know you ought to move this or change that and and it impacts what was presented tonight then yeah you would need to come back Jake what what would you be going to the board for for well I mean the fact that we're putting a second floor addition even though it's on the existing footprint it does change floor to area ratio lot coverage but in no way you've calculated that violates anything does it excuse me does it does it we really need there you'll need a we'll need an F variance that's probably yeah yeah exactly yeah so in fact you're saying you may need an F or lock coverage variance that's what we believe you know even though it's only existing footprint it's still somehow calculated in yeah yeah well flua ratio if you're adding habitable space your F would increase yeah yeah so and we we did consciously keep this you know only existing we wanted to keep it very small but it still triggers variances so the board has the discretion to consider this if it's complete enough and we don't anticipate changes the board can consider this final and that would result in a resolution and then he could go to the board and say hey I got a resolution they've approved it already the risk there is that if they make some change he may have to come back and ask for the board to amend that before he's able to proceed well typically we'll do a conceptual letter and then the applicant will go and then they'll come back with some final conditions this or that but if the board is satisfied that this is in final form you can consider that I mean it's not always that we're doing that but I think you have the discretion to do that that's how you want to proceed other than than the um undertaking with respect to the roof and the standing seam which you said you would stipulate there there's no other condition I would impose on on well he he also is changing the windows we want to make sure we have that I'm sorry he's changing the window configuration from what's drawn that's all so we would just need yeah the you mean the rear windows correct yeah but but I saw the conception you know it was indicated on my Inspirations but I will try to get a cut sheet for that yeah I just consider that so minor and IMM material yeah they would be they would still be gen well I mean and but with 15 lights as opposed to the four over one as on the so it's a 15 over one is that what you're saying no no it's the on the inspiration oh just it's not a double hung yeah basically we you know we really like looking at the back sun room of the wooden rabbit okay and we kind of like the way that looked and so that we found some other places around town so we could approve this final with the two caveats that it's the one in standing seam and the 15 light window and that it have planning board and then it get zoning approval those three those three conditions yes those zoning I'm sorry zoning right yeah do I have a motion I I'll make that motion that we approve this with those three conditions that you submit us a cut sheet of the window Windows specify the 1-in um standing seam and you obtain zoning approval do I have a second seconded motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson he can't oh sorry Mr Tesa yes thank you Miss bisagno Miss Wilson strick yes Mr hammeron yes thank you thank you Commissioners been seven years we've been trying to get this baby moving thank you well it's moving now thank you so good thank you okay open to the public anyone uh we'll close to the public um now we'll move to a discussion anyone no one interested in a discussion before we go to adjournment I would like to make a statement here um as our meeting comes to an end tonight I'd like to share with you with the HPC my future plans in January my term will expire I met with the mayor I told him that I will retire from the HPC at that time there is no circumstance that prompts this decision except for the celebration of my 79th birthday since joining the HPC in 2007 I'm proud to be able to share in our Collective success in those early days we found that cap May um was on the Secretary of interior's watch list for endangered national landmarks we as a group successfully corrected those issues and now we've come full circle by being um proud to accept several Awards this past year from the state of New Jersey after 18 years it's time to retire and turn the Reigns over to new leadership I wish all of you the best moving forward to keep Kate may as the nation's only National Historic Landmark City I look forward to following your success I want to thank all of you for your support I've enjoyed working with all the members of the HBC both past and present as well as City Administration my last meeting will be the next meeting December which I'll attend um we've been by the state on several occasions to have a picture of the HPC um we we don't have one we've never had one and so this might be an opportunity in December to take a picture of the HBC so you might want to Gussy up a little bit tuxedos are not [Laughter] necessary um anyway um uh I wish you all the best and U Happy Thanksgiving thank you well it certainly deserves of [Applause] Applause and I I don't I don't think there's anybody here Warren who has not grown into our roles here and um appreciated the leadership I I think um you know it's it's been I mean this is only my I guess sixth year or so which makes me really Junior compared to the experience you've had but um I've I've learned an awful lot um I've learned um to u to to to to review these matters as they come up and try to see them with a preservationist eye um and and do some balancing but I I think we all appreciate the leadership that you've shown even though you and I don't agree on everything um or we sometimes have some some some disagreements um I think everyone here really appreciates the role and the leadership you've provided for us all and and and we're going to miss you a lot thank you well you you will there we've built a strong HBC um I don't want to disparage prior hpcs but I I would share with you when I when I joined um there there were two people on the HBC that would frequently fall asleep during presentations made by uh applicants um well-meaning nice people um but um it wasn't the expectations that we have today with bringing in people that are are skilled and interested and awake so yeah I like to thank it's going to be very tough boots to fill because you were the guy that really held the line on it kept our designation and also you know I would thank you for almost singleand the African-American history District which is another big thing we've done yeah and I um I'm trying to get a meeting with the the mayor to make sure I I don't overdo something but um I understand that at are at the January um uh city council meeting um that I I will make a presentation as to the final success of of that several year uh adventure and and 500 page submission but we have received approval and so uh I think it's appropriate to uh recognize all the people that have worked on that but also to recognize the minority population in Cap May after all these years it's finally recognized that the African-American Community has made a significant contribution to Kate May's Historic Landmark um with Artisans professionals service people um and it's about time they're recognized and that has now happened so yeah huge effort um I I remember years ago when when we presented this um Andrea tingi and I presented this to uh get a grant to create this um I I remember we we wanted to amend the Historic Landmark and a note came back from the the federal uh government that scribbled across the top that this is really an interesting um uh proposal and um they're excited to to see the application and they were supportive of uh the grant so yeah it's an exciting thing and the community should be proud hopefully we'll get some people there and recognized so um so i' just like to thank you too because I think the effectiveness of this Commission in your tenure how it's grown and and actually really been effective can't be overstated and I think it's a testament to how much you deeply care about this community and this commission so thank you thank you Warren I if I can add to that um you and I have gotten to work since I became solicitor more and more over the years and we've had some successes in court defending the work of the HPC and the city's ordinances and uh you were extremely helpful and supportive of those efforts and I you know I commend you for that and those successes are the HPC successes and you're definitely a part of that so it's been great working with you thank you yeah I just want to say I'd like to say I always admired how you held yourself and the commission to the highest standards even when it wasn't popular you took the right stance all of the time and the most important thing in your heart was the standards or national landmark and you have really brought the whole commission to a new level and we thank you thank you I just want to say that the reason I'm on this commission is because I spent a year in the audience listening to you deal with all kinds of comments and challenges and I heard the commission I don't remember anyone falling asleep I do remember um that was 18 years ago okay I I do remember there was a confusion about materials and you know there was just a lot I learned a lot as a as a community member observing and and but one of the main things I really admired and I still think it's amazing is how hard you work and how patient you are at explaining principles like what a contributing structure is that you would hope people especially Architects would understand when they come before the board but you never acted impatient about putting that forth and it does seem like it's a message we have to keep sharing so thank you thank you and Warren I do have to say heartfelt um because when I first came on this board uh you spent a lot of time with me uh this was new to me um living in Kate May though um is not but knowing um you know your knowledge that you brought and and taught me um you're going to be missed here absolutely and the spirit of um of your leadership you know um and your knowledge uh it's going to continue here CU you laid great foundations thank thank you yes we have strong strong people here so um I am confident that this HBC will continue to move in the in the direction that has been said and so yeah it's time for new leadership new ideas so thank you thank you thank [Applause] you so I guess this calls for a motion for ajour or no or whatever Jour Jour all [Music]