e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e that's not good e e e e e you ready [Applause] good evening everyone it's just a couple minutes past 6 this is the historic preservation Commission in compliance with the open public meeting Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided if any member has reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they should state so at this time Pledge of Allegiance please God indivisible andice for all roll call please Mr copelan here Mr Carol here Mr Becker here Mr Stevenson Mr Tesa here miss bagno here Miss Wilson strick here Mr Johnson here Mr hammeron here thank you the minutes May 20th 2024 you've had a chance to review those minutes do I have a motion to accept them I'll move to accept the minutes second that motion motion by Miss Wilson strick seconded by Mr Testa Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stain I'm sorry abstain thank you Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you resolutions Cohen 16 reading Avenue block 11:15 loot 17.02 resolution 22415 duim 921 Stockton Avenue block 1082 lot 14.01 resolution 20241 6 Hoff 106 Washington Street block 1110 lot two resolution 20 2417 Peter 930 Washington Street block 1093 lot 9 resolution 20248 and the Painted Lady Condominium Association 11 North Street block 1022 lot 20 resolution 20249 do I have a motion to accept those resolutions so moved do I have a second I'll second motion by Mr B Becker Sorry seconded by Miss Wilson strick Mr Copeland yes Mr Carol uh yes except for Peter where I voted n thank you Mr Becker yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno obain Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson Yes except for Peter which I uh recused based on location thank you applications approved or denied in review you've had a chance to review those do I have a motion to accept them I will make a motion that we accept the applications approved and review second motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan uh yes uh I recuse myself cleverly enough on Copeland 737 Washington Street thank you Mr Carol I recuse myself on Carol 625 Hugh Street and other than that yes thank you Mr Becker yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you first order of U business is old business Rino 26 Mount Vernon Avenue block 1014 lot 3 this is a contributing property um for elevation an addition Second Story and a shed hello everyone uh would you turn on your mics please and we need your name and relationship to the property please okay uh my my name is Steve Fenwick I'm uh the architect uh for the property for the project um and uh this just Robo I'm Robert Rabino the one of the owners and my wife patty patty Runo one of the owners thank you should I just start okay take it away okay so we were here about a little longer than two years ago and um we um presented uh this project to the board and um um we received uh um uh conceptual approval and with comment and um just a couple of things that have changed since then is that Warren had suggested we extend the driveway back so that the cars would be behind the front of the building and we did do that and then uh kind of serendipitously the zoning changed where that used to always be you had to do your setback to the furthest extent of any part of the building and now to the wall like most towns so where we had a variance on the roof roof line which was like in line with the old building which is nonconforming that went away and uh so we have no more need to go to the Zoning Board of adjustment Mr Fenwick is that because of the roof Eaves change that we made primarily yes okay yes so you're going for final tonight we don't have to go back final tonight we prepared construction drawings which I'm happy to review in as much detail as you'd like um well I would suggest you share with our August group here exactly what you're planning really what that what changes are taking place from right so I will do that because there are other changes um so there was in the prior application a pool in the rear yard that is gone there was a garage in rear yard kind of call it an out building accessory building so that's gone and a smaller building that conforms with the zoning definition for a shed uh was added um um and that's essentially it we just um you know defined the work for construction from the schematic drawings that you saw before um you know we have wooden windows we have a cedar Shake roof um uh we have lap siding um we're reconstructing that front PCH which was you know pretty rough you know that front stairs in particular the little front porch so we're kind of restoring the old front of the house and um um other than that it's just um the same as before um could we maybe we Define the materials in a little more detail but we listed the materials last time and we didn't change them so it's pretty similar sorry what was the date that you were in front of us for conceptual approval do you have that handy I have it Rob has it but it excuse me it was like 26 months ago um May 16th 2022 Jim May 16th what Judy 2022 2022 okay thank you it's pretty close yes well that so there there was a two-year thing on there a two-year period on there but it was extended um Rob was sharing a letter from I guess okay just about to ask that because you have to renew an approval where nothing has happened in within two years yes and Rob you got a a a letter from us saying that we approve you to come back with final we did yes and we were asked to um come to the May meeting I believe it was May 20th and we I guess we got notification maybe two weeks before the meeting and we have since um moved to Sarasota Florida and then my wife she had um doctor's appointments in Baltimore the date of the meeting so I contacted Judy Decker and I asked her if we could uh request a an extension to this meeting and so she asked me to put it in writing and I did and she was kind enough to send me back um a note saying extended until July 15 24 HPC approved date [Music] 51424 and Mr Fenwick you you submitted this on May 6 2024 that's what the submittal date is right so before the May meeting yes and but they but it was hard to get to the meeting yes yes Ju Just to be to be clear the material list is is clear and as you know we normally go around the room but this has been before us but a long time ago um and so oh yeah two years ago I think it's appropriate to all to first um make a brief presentation um really so the the public might benefit as well on on the shed because the shed is totally different oh yeah and before you do that um this addition is is um is is large is this addition changed anything since no no no now the addition is the same just really the rear yard the pool the garage the shed in the driveway and then the zoning changed which meant we didn't have to go the Zone how about that that never happens um and so I think the question is I could is is there anyone on the commission that since so much time has gone by and even though it was conceptually approved the question is does anyone want to comment on the addition itself I'm I'm not sure this year that it would I I'm I I guess I and I I'm having one of the reasons I asked was not really to cut the date off on you but to try to separate the amount of time I'm having a great deal of of of difficulty recollecting the conceptual presentation um and and that happens sometimes it's happening more frequently with me um but but to be really honest um I I looked at this for the current presentation and I'm finding it my view of this addition as being unduly large relative to the small size of the cottage your materials list is excellent there's no problem with the stuff you've chosen to do there are things that you've added um that are improvements and consistent with um with our materials requirements but the but I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding now how putting this addition onto the back of this Cottage doesn't threaten the contributing status of this building um I mean it it just seems to me you can see the front and then all of a sudden it's enveloped in that large roof that comes across the the and I apologize if I didn't say this before but I'm saying it now so that's my that's my comment the addition seems to be unduly large and threatens the continuing uh the the contributing status of the building you want me to just comment on the size of the addition because I think uh the the zoning chart is confusing because it's talking about f f you know it's really not it's I when I say that I don't mean that you haven't complied with zoning or that you haven't done your densities what I'm saying is as you look at the facade of this building and you see the the dainty front Cottage that was there you're now faced with a large cross-section of a roof that to me and and I'm questioning the size of the addition in back you've hid it back not this not the area of it no just the the appearance of that large roof right running across the face of the prop and you're looking at the construction drawings I'm looking at the the renderings the renderings yes which show a large a large roof because the construction drawings are like orthagonal drawings so that you you you see the uh the roof Beyond um in plain with the with the wall in the front whereas in fact you have a sight line situation where the the roof in the back is falling away from you and the ridge is substantially back from the front facade I mean it talks about that in the Park service standard sight line and so we tried our best to minimize the impact of the addition now it was confusing about the size of it because if you look at the zoning chart it talks about Florida area ratio but if you include the volume of the front porch and the back porch on the ground floor the the areas are um the area of the addition is where it appears to be more than the existing it's it's in fact less the the the issue though is from a streetcape um we don't streetcape yeah brought those Dr just a minute just relax there a second but you this this is over 2 years old um since then a number of things have happened including a new standards um book y um we want to be sensitive to the applicants because it it had conceptual approval in the past but um I think what the issue is on on uh eight page eight of nine a201 if you look at that front elevation that's this this page oh okay a201 yeah a201 elevations right right if you look at that upper uh leftand corner right um um I don't underestimate your point that that um is set back on the property um significantly significantly and it falls away also and will be diminished from a streetcape right but still that is really really um a bit much I think um well we could have lifted the front up you know and then made The Ridges match but I don't think you would have liked that I would like that less exactly so so we're we're you know where our aition is really less than the existing house and uh we we uh we followed the guidelines and putting it to the rear and to the side where it was available to us and we we met the zoning and um yeah if we could have kept the but in order to meet the zoning we we had to go up to the second floor and we had to lift the house for flood so all those were a lot of factors involved and you know I I got to tell you I did check the the old guidelines uh the the language is the same as the new guidelines well if that's the case then I'm really struggling with this because unfortunately I don't have any the Aesthetics of it it's it's clearly well done however it's in direct violation of three very clear stipulations in our guidelines so may I read them on page 53 new addition should be smaller than historic building it should be subordinate in both size and design okay page 55 smaller um I strongly disagree with that I just it is not appropriate to construct an addition that is taller than a contributing building this is a contributing building that's correct and the third thing that it violates is it is not appropriate for a ridg line to be higher than a contributing building when when constructing an addition that's the same as taller right not necessarily well if it was a flat roof it would be different correct so I I knew there had to be formal language for expressing in articulately said not disimilar all from the from the prior guidelines I'm at a loss I'd like to actually excuse me I'd like to defer to our Council because if in fact the language actually in our old guidelines was pretty similar to this it's just much more explicit now the question is if we if this body gave conceptual approval to something that was in violation of of our standards what is our recourse now during final if it's actually clear CLE l in violation of not only the new standards but likely the old ones as well I don't know what we can do or not we don't have to go back to the old standards stand that question okay the answer is in the city code and in the city code conceptual and informal reviews are non-binding so it it says that right in the code um this is section 52537 which has been in effect longer than anything that we're talking talking about right now section D it says neither the applicant nor the commission shall be bound by any informational meeting or conceptual review conceptual review shall not apply to any applications for development commission shall not consider conceptual review of an application unless specifically referred to by the planning board or Zoning Board of adjustments so we've gotten in we have this process for people that have to navigate the Planning and Zoning Board process and it's to allow the HPC to get an outline of the project to provide that feedback before it hits the planning or zoning board but there's always the requirement to come back to this board and the notice that the applicants got and every applicant it's not just them um indicates that it's not a basis for pulling a construction permit you got to come back to the board with a final plan and you know I think the I I was just looking at the plans that were submitted as part of conceptual and there's some help elevations in there from the angle but I don't know that maybe the HPC was able to see the 2D um here's the street schem right and I guess what I'm dudy asked me to bring it right so the the issue is was that um you know kind of like front and center for the HPC at the time of that review it was certainly in there Mr Fenwick and I'm not I'm not suggesting otherwise but you had some helpful elevations in there that maybe didn't highlight this issue as much that they're picking up on on it now um so one one you're saying that the second application showed more than the first application no I'm I'm saying that the the opportunity to comment on the the roof line I think is it's appearing because this is a little slightly different presentation than before no it's not it's it's a presentation of the same object Mr fanwick don't take this personally okay I'm not saying this against you at all you take it person you're just don't want you to change the fact make it imply that I changed the uh design which I didn't we did we there's a couple things that I noted the pool's been eliminated the shed's out the parking's reconfigured we're talking about the roof line right well wait a second when you said it wasn't bigger I have to push back really hard because you have documents right here that say existing square footage is 935 square fet proposed is as new is 1,073 right right but that's F that's in zoning chart under F if you include the front porch which is building Mass very much so and the back screen porch on the all on the ground level but hold on which is building M we don't we don't have anything to do with zoning it literally States in our no you have to do with building mass please the new building mass is less than the old building Mass can I just interrupt here for a second Steve you've been before us several times the issue is you had conceptual approval a couple years ago you come back before for us that is not uh bearing on our discussion today when we look at this Bungalow which is now changed dramatically we're not talking about F we're not talking about zoning we're talking about when you look at the front of this building um it the addition appears enormous and the question is is there a way to mitigate that one if I may it only appears enormous when you look at the construction drawing which is an orthagonal no no no I'm looking at this drawing that's a construction drawing y this drawing shows the distance from the front to here so imagine somebody standing on the sidewalk I can imagine imagine someone standing on Second Avenue and looking at it it would actually be even worse I don't know where Second Avenue is relative to from the corner there is um so I'm still trying to get at why you can claim that it's smaller when the addition is um well look at the look at the may I finish please is 1,73 square feet and the existing house is 935 the addition is actually literally bigger in square footage the addition of the second floor is floor you're adding 239 sare fet first guys we got to stop talking over each other okay the board Mr Fenwick the board you're talking over me right now why I'm trying to say we we're making a record right now so let me finish I'll let you finish the board has questions let them ask their questions you can answer we can't be talking over each other okay okay I would like to make some comments something of course about your breaking your standards you're not breaking your standard we're here be before you to come to an understanding to uh come up with the best possible solution for a situation in your town um I mean I I could show you pictures of many many additions like this that are brutally ugly that were approved by this board but that's not the reason I'm just trying to say we did the best we could within the zoning and the aesthetic package and the guidelines very important and if you look at the park service guidelines they don't want you to have a standard they want you to make a judgment and I could read it to you from the you know the preservation no can we let's let's I don't think we have time for that lesson yeah let's hold up a little bit first off um just to correct everyone these are standards they're not guidelines and the standards are part of the ordinates to avoid all of that the problem is this roof line is so high even though it's set back from the road right it still appears much larger than a bungalow this was a bungalow and now it's going to be something else the question then I think would be better for our our community is is there some way to reduce this Ridge the apparency the ridge if you could reduce the height of the ridge on this addition um I could gaml it maybe flatten it I think I think that would be um a bit more helpful than continuing to jaw about about zoning or prior approval I mean the best way would be to lift the front of the house up and then you have a step in the middle of the house like a no no no it's not talking about lifting the house which makes it even more problematic the question is can this Ridge be lowered or not it can possibly be lowered I could find the bloody drawing go with it I'm looking at 201 I you know 301 has the bedroom ites uh this is this is Chris we're talking about we could we could clip the sides waren like uh like kind of hip the the top like that but we need to be able to walk around on the second floor so you see what I'm sketching there we could clip the roof line so the gables yeah are reduced but you could also you could also reduce the the ridge by flattening it a couple feet by flattening it could flatten it yeah and then and then it's not really historically appropriate to me but we could do it talking about the front facade uh I know well I guess what I'm trying to say as an architect I mean the sight lines are going to be such that it's not going to be as obtrusive as you think and and um I I understand that we can't and I I got to I got to say this because I I I you know it's important to me and it's important to you I know it is you know if you this is from the the I know you don't want to hear it but from the preservation brief 14 the appropriate size for a new addition varies from building to building it could never be stated in a square or cubic foot ratio but the historic buildings existing proportion site and setting can help set some general parameters for enlargement so I mean I'm just saying it's not like 50% or 52% or the ridge is a little higher or a little lower it's how you perceive it all the the ridge is substantially and and the perception the perception of some of us is that that High Ridge line Bears um a substantial risk of reducing this property from being contributing to not being contributing I I appreciate that you have used materials that are the correct materials that would help uphold that standard right now the property is classified as contributing every time a large addition is put on and I'm not talking about slightly bigger or slightly smaller but every time a large addition is put on and it is it's so well interfered with the streetcape in the line we risk the loss of that status it's a beautiful little Bungalow beautiful little College Cottage you're going to add something very big onto it if that property becomes non-contributing as a result of it then we will have not done our duty I agree my maor concern plenty of pictures of things that were approved that you're probably talking about they're all over well I do my best to be consistent and I mean I can tell you about properties that have mediocre addition over the you know patient there you know as well as everybody here every property is evaluated on its own I agree so let's go back um if you were to reduce um the pitch and and then reduce the ridge I believe oh reduce the pitch okay yeah if you reduce the pitch and the ridge if I could on it um then I I I think um yeah we could reduce the pitch so but then it's going to come further forward you know what I mean waren so I could let me work on it let me see if I can get it down we got that Gable in the back that's it's like a 6 on 12 it can't be any much lower but I can drop it all down a little bit but I don't think I could drop it down more than two feet and I don't know that it'll be subst naturally different I I think if you were to a if you can drop the ridge two feet and um uh change that the the back to to a a portion of it being flat a rubber I could even do I can even do like the old additions on the on the real old buildings just a shed roof if you want that would help you know how like you know they you know the standard old two tier drop down with the flats like that do that so you it it is far back so from the street it's not going to look as as big as um as the as the orthagonal 2011 um but I think if if you get two feet and you and but and you reduce the pitch and the ridge I think it's could be a reasonable addition okay that's a I mean that's a a way we can reduce the by reducing the pitch um we can drop the Ridge and and still walk about well you can drop besides the pitch you could drop the ridge by introducing a a flat we could do that we could do that and which doesn't affect the the head room and all but I don't think it affects zoning either unless you want to go over 35 ft so we're okay there we're not even close to 35 yeah we can't we don't want to comment on Sony but I but it well it' be nice if they hooked up by the way you know we got that that that that streetscape variance from the zoning board for that Queen Street job so that was nice and that wasn't easy they're told me oh you want to make your pool bigger no we didn't want to make the pool bigger we wanted to match the streets I don't know if you remember that it's being built on Queen Street it's a big house yeah so to the to the group I would ask if if if and I'm looking at this on 2011 remember this this this um Ridge here is is is this Ridge all the way in the back if we if if Fenwick was able to change that pitch and flatten it this then would look dramatically different um and anything that looks dramatically different to me would be an improvement so so I mean I think that's the right approach I think he should be given the opportunity to try so I'm I'm not going to commit to supporting it but it sounds like it's the right path my reaction waren is I think John had two really good points right are we in the standards s cons consensual or you know we this not a this is a final um do we sub do we have enough evidence to support that number five and six on page 55 have been achieved I I think I don't know no I don't it's a fair question the issue though is to to try to help the applicant on the one hand and maintain the standards of course I think when when you do the two issues that we're talking about you're you're reducing this this roof line here pretty dramatically and given that it's set back uh I think it it is conforming would be I would just like to say if you recall the original this is the original uh drawing which is very pretty well it's taken from a man's eye height 5T where as the the working drawing if you imagine a man was floating in space in the middle of the height of the building and he had no perspective to his vision right so the the the reality is much closer and they talk about sight lines you know and the Park Service guidelines and I'm just trying to say that by by sloping the roof back and pushing the ridge Backes that bulk you see on I I understand that and and and it is a move in the right direction okay to to to get this approved um and and I support your efforts to do that I'd like to see the result okay well we we can knock it down you know and and and if and if it's appropriate um rather than um Grant any kind of an approval or conditions here perhaps the best idea is to table and give the applicant the ability to come back with revised drawings i i would support tabling this I I I think it it's really fair to to you and to the applicants if we table this and give you an opportunity to embrace our questions our concerns um well okay so you would you would come back with your revised construction drawings and perspectives don't you think that's asking a lot I mean sure how much effort goes into making a construction drawing you already gave us a conceptual approval you know I mean I don't know who's going to do I wouldn't push the conceptual thing any further I read your surveys all the time yeah it would be a shame if it was no longer contributing and that part Park Service gives you a hard time I'm not sure we understand each other right oh shipo they're great yeah great group of people up there can you speak can I speak you've never had any trouble before I get drowned we have new standards out that are only about a year old now I know that uh they were worked over for a couple years we reviewed everything in town what we had done wrong what we had done right we really worked on that and this board is standing very strongly behind those as soon as we start deviating those from those like John pointed out the deviations you're taking uh we are going to just have everybody coming in wanting more and more and this town will pretty soon be no longer a National Historic Landmark now as I look at what you've bought uh your your your clients have bought it's a very tiny Bungalow house and I see what they want to do you stop interrupting me please I could see why they want to make it bigger as everybody does in town it was never meant to be a four bedroom house as I look at the plans they have a big front porch and now a big back porch if that back porch became the extra bedrooms they made need like two and three and one in the front with the kitchen and the family room in the center and remain as a one-story house I think you could then make that addition in keeping with other things we've approved both before and after and along with what John just read I think as soon as you start raising the bulk of the back the bulk of the front moving the staircase out uh into the front you know bring that right out to the curk you're asking for extensions in every direction and I for one would not be willing to approve that as much as I'd love welcoming new people to this town I'm not going to let them overbuild the houses that are here we just we just can't keep approving that well and I don't think we have in the past I respect the fact that you need to hold the line and I think you've done it pretty well over the years and that's why K May is K May and I totally respect that and I was on the committee that helped write the guidelin so I know exactly what you're talking about you know P Campbell asked me to be on the committee and I helped her as much as I could you should know him well enough that you wouldn't have designed this that totally violates him well that as it may and the terms weren't changed anyway and it was approved because it's a good design now you're you're worried because you have a new guideline you have to hold line I respect that I understand that and we're going to try to work with you to adjust it okay we're what we're doing is plowing the same ground you've agreed to reduce the pitch can I just ask a question are you proposing that we move the bedrooms upstairs downstairs to where the covered porches I'm suggesting that you read the standards and see exactly what it allowed you to do which John was trying to do before Steve was totally interrupting him and go by them and see if he can help you or somebody else can help you designed an addition that meets those standards and I think you have room to do it on that property with a few VAR iterate what the three standards are that are in issue be happy to their guidelines standard that's that's where you're mistaken they're not standards that are guidelines no no believe part of the the park services uh regulations that you're what does the title of this say did you hear what I said we did just to that is the local law applicable to imagination that is the local law wait a minute wait you're not helping your case at all yeah let's stop let's stop you're not being true to your clients let's stop the argument answer your question gentlemen we got to get back to the issue want take their back for way I make a motion that we table this the client the client asked the question I'd like to be really clear so there are four clear violations to our standards based upon what is being presented tonight the first one is on page 53 new addition should be smaller than the historic building should be subordinate in both size and design to the historic building not only is it taller but the square footage of what you're adding is actually larger than what exists and you that's right in your drawing you can't dispute that you can't dispute it because it's F AR Florida area ratio condition space it's not bulk don't you regulate bulk yes you bulk do you regulate condition space no could could we just simply leave this as the standards are printed it isn't necessary for Mr Becker to read them to you you can read them for yourself we we all have somewhat of a different view of of what's being done here there's motion going to be made to table this application which gives you the benefit of coming back to us with a revision and and taking some guidance from that now there are different views uh Mr Carol seems to be of the view that you shouldn't have a second story yeah he wants us to read okay I don't you could read the standards I I'm of the view that that with proper roof design lowering changing the pitch that you can work in a second story behind this okay so so we each have some different views about the way this goes the tabling of your application gives you the opportunity to work something up and to and to come back to us just like we're sitting here tonight and when you get through you can have final approval but but that is going to happen tonight and that's why if Warren doesn't make the motion I will fine we'll do our best to meet your uh your goals and uh but I don't think we're going to be changing the whole design I think it's asking an awful lot actually to do that currently there is no kitchen it's just a stove and a sink there's no Heating and Cooling in this house the bedroom's 9 by9 I think the question is to meet with the AR smoke St sh and do as much as you can within the standards the the Bungalows are very small and of course Kate May is very expensive so you buy an expensive Bungalow you want to add we're sensitive to that we want to support that at the same time though it has to fit onto the street it has has to retain the the the charm and elegance so um I make a motion that the application be table and when we thought all can I just did you know that it wasn't where do we get they right on the um Mr Rino there which four just number-wise are you saying so the first one and I I just would like to refer you to drawing g-001 it says the existing square footage of the house MH is 935 square ft right for for f all right hold on that's the total proposed is 28 square ft which means you're adding 1,73 which is more than the 935 existing so you cannot make the argument that the addition is smaller yes you can make the argument we're not really here to debate okay second this enough enough is enough you know this is like a professional thing here how can he say that he's calling me a liar he's not calling you a liar Mr Fen he's trying he's trying to explain to Mr he doesn't understand what he's reading we have a motion the other one I'll second I'll second Tom Carol's I'll second Tom Carol motion and and that motion would be with the with the applicant um willing to wave the 45-day period relating to our our non-action so you you you have to wave the period in order to have this tabled the motion comes it's either either you you ask them to vote on what you presented tonight or you can take another shot at it with a within 45 days no if we don't act within 45 days your application would be deemed to be accepted and approved can I ask you need to wave it was it was can I ask this courtesy of the board that we we redo this design to try to meet your standards better um in a cons in a in a schematic preliminary way so we don't have to go back and grind out the construction dra wait a minute what we what you can do that's fair we we meet um the Review Committee meets on Tuesday morning at 8:30 um if you want to do a preliminary rough uh uh design to accommodate um it's not a Forum there's generally three of us will'll provide you with feedback um and to increase the probability of success can only one of us attend no no that's for the board we it's it's there's no quarum there's no decision making no no I'm saying I could just go right no no just you might want you pick any anyone or all three of you you pick are welcome I mean so it's a for where we can have a discussion that can actually help you make some design decisions that would be in compliance with our standard that's appreciated because you know it's a big effort the construction drwings are a very big yeah what we don't want you to waste time doing that okay so I think you got an awful lot of instructions tonight no no I got it if you listen to them and follow those you're going to come back a whole lot more successful all right not having the feeling that you paid a whole lot of attention to what we wereit you don't have the feeling I PID okay so so motion made seconded if I could just add something Thomas made the motion second hear what he wants to say the owner yes if I if I could just add something um we didn't buy just buy an expensive Bungalow we've owned this home for about 25 years um second when we bought the house it was not contributing it was probably within the last 10 years five years seven years seven years I have it it became contributing well let's talk about that for just a second what what happens is we are charged city is charged with maintaining a current inventory of the properties in Cape main which I interpret as um an update every 10 years or so a um architectural historian is hired who is independent comes out evaluates the property looks at the property um and makes a determination and a comprehensive description um and the most recent survey is the one that we look at so I understand that and I understand it's a contributing property I know that that changed I'm just saying that when we originally bought the [Music] home you know this is almost 25 years ago and we never thought we would really do any improvements to it until our family started expanding um and as it is right now you have three bedrooms with one bathroom uh your kitchen jaill and laundry are all together and the front porch I believe was an addition as was the back back corner where the what is now is the kitchen and where we have a stacked washer and dryer and all we were hoping to do was make it so that we could entertain really as it is now it's difficult even if you have four people in the house and one time because you're sharing one bathroom and so that that that was that was our mission well we're sympathetic to all the Bungalow owners um the Bungalows are small by definition that's what they were um and we try to accommodate um adding to those as sensitively as possible but it it's difficult and so it does require a little bit of interaction back and forth discussion understand so while we're sympathetic at the same time understand we we want to maintain streetcape I understand that uh you you've heard a lot you've got a lot of feedback we're willing to meet with the three of you on on one Tuesday morning if you just make an appointment with with Judy let yes so we don't have six people coming on Tuesday um so I I would suggest you take the information the dialogue um uh if we could Mr copelan have Mr Fenwick incorporate your suggestions on the uh bridge line Mr tester suggestion well there there's there's there's an alternative that some us think might do the job and possibly we can look at it if we maybe bring it in a foot or something maybe we'll get back to where the addition is the same size as no no you don't have to do that the addition is not bigger let's let's not continue I I appreciate I mean you you have some feedback yes um the addition is is to big but importantly Mass it's the elevation that is the problem all right um and if you can reduce the size a bit and reduce the elevation I think you'll find I just want to make sure that if we do that we at least have some chance of being able to try and move forward um I know Mr Carol you have a lot of objections to what is there um I just you know there comes a point where it starts getting so expensive to redo the drawings and everything else um you know you have to that that's why if you come before us on Tuesday Morning the drawings don't have to be finalized like like you would need to get approval and you would need to get a a a permit M the idea is we want to have some sense of what it's going to look like um okay that's why I think fine we have a great 3D modeling program it's like one of the best in the world we'll we'll show it to you from the across the street from the sidewalk with the adjusted slopes and and all like that but we're not going to if Mr Becker is going to vote no because it's a 6 in above the existing Ridge what are we doing here you guys unanimously approved this application two years ago same people same height stand it's enough just so you know and then we went and didn't work in drawings for you so a little respect please that's all meeting well as far as I know there's a motion been made and seconded we've continued to talk but it'd be nice if we voted on it I'm sorry we have a motion Tom Carol I'd like to ask Mr Gillan Schwarz if we need another extension right that's what I was about to say it's premised on the applicants waving the time for decision meaning meaning that there's if if to to consent to the tabling of it so that you can rework your your plans and come back with a a plan that kind of meets the comments with 45 days yeah well that now you see we we the way this works is you've submitted a final application and and if we don't act on it in 45 days unless you agree to let us have more time it automatically gets approved so we can we can act on it tonight but of course I don't know that that's something that the applicant will want to do so that's why we're saying hey why don't we table it you can wave for the time for decision or we can vote on it tonight and you can resubmit a new application that's it's it's pretty common that the applicants but it's your choice soon do we have to come back with a new con you could you could come back next month if if you retool the plans and you and there's going to be there'll be informal uh conferences before then so some we have applicants to do that or it can be longer yeah it can be longer yeah so we would redo the conceptual and come to the the review meeting and then if we get some kind of a positive thing like we did two years ago then we can then we should adjust the construction drawings and come back to the board and you would get final approval at that presentation having taken heart with all the I could be wrong I'm so sorry I could be wrong but as I see conceptual approval given a few years ago um everything was vastly changed and presented to us with some changes so this seems like actually a conceptual meeting to begin with and I think that's why you have found so much frustration because it's going back to the back the the back you know the uh drawing board and um you know we had to have all these questions and things like this because it's a different concept and I think that's where the frustration is and if I can say something to the rabinos um and there's people in the gallery that should hear this too I I know that this is frustrating to go through I went through this myself um but the one of the issues with the HPC is it's not the variance board so usually when applicants are going into the planning or zoning board they're saying hey we're we're going beyond the standard but here's why it makes a lot of sense we're we're a bit closer to the standards in the HPC because it's for the protection of National Historic Landmark status so that's why as Mr Fenwick put it there's holding the line here because that's the line that they're trying to hold so it's it's there's a little bit building they couldn't have built a dome if you held the line come on yeah there's flexibility my point is you have to be closer to the standard perhaps we perhaps we could vote on this and give every other every other applicant a chance to step up I'm sorry before I call the motion did we get a verbal approval for the extension of the 45 days review period will you consent to the you consent right to the waiver to the waiver of the time time of decision uh yes here we go thank you Chris yes motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Testa Mr Copeland v on it tonight Mr Carol be denied so it's not a trick question Mr Becker yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank Youk so much apologize for being such aead I can't help myself just getting old next order of business mocha Family Trust 12 North Street this is block 1021 lot three this is a contributing property Amendment to the rear addition Windows Doors and roofs thank you y let's let's give you another microphone thank you perfect thank you okay so um your Warman fzy HPC um could could we have your name in relationship to the property please my name is Marcel mavo I'm I'm going to be building for uh theels Adam cron with Bish Architects I'm the project designer and project manager Casey Patel owner Monty Patel [Laughter] husband and um this this did come before the Review Committee um and and was discussed um so just so you're aware and with that so I was not at the last hearing but Marcelo and I believe the patels were so I was going to kind of let them just summarize uh how we got to this point um I'll let him do that in just a second then about two weeks ago we had a Tuesday morning meeting with with three of you and kind of discussed some minor tweaks to the plans and that's what I just handed to everybody um they were the requested uh little tweaks that we requested that morning they're all clouded on the elevation sheet which is zp6 zp6 um they were just some adjustments to the roof line as requested by you guys um Marcel did you just kind of want to explain what happened at the last meeting and then yeah there were some questions with the roof line if you remember I know you go through quite a bit of this um and uh at the informal meeting um we went back and forth and tried to tried to uh nail down all the the revisions that would make this look like a a natural structure in K May um and I think it looks like from uh from what Adam Drew uh We've addressed all the concerns as far as I can see there were some questions about the um about the shutters I think we addressed that and then um Mr Becker had mentioned the ridg line which we which we did change or Adam correct we we dropped the ridg line down um we had also discussed it's I know you guys don't get into zoning but we wouldn't have been able to get a permit for it um if our roof was less than a 412 pitch so what we ended up doing was just dropping the roof down so we don't have as high as ceilings in the room to be able to achieve the 412 pitch so we would get a zoning permit uh for the application and also um adjust it to your request was to which was to get get the peak of the roof out of the eve of the main part of the historic structure so we lowered it all down um we made sure we adjust all the shutters so that they match the windows true um and Mr Becker had asked that I put the floor lines the the rear addition to this house is a very old addition but the fost portion of the building was actually like a colonial section of the house that was probably moved there at one time um then there was another addition on the back back of the main house and when they decided they needed a bathroom they literally just added another addition to connect the two areas so there was three different floor levels in there um that we had adjust um the other thing I think had already um been approved was the doors which are going to be a Rogue Valley wood door correct um there's three there's going to be a new front door and then there's a door on the side and a door on the rear um we included in your packet the lantern style lighting which I believe was also approved um so I think all we're really here for tonight was just the the rear section of the building and the the roof um we're running late already so rather than go around the room the way we normally do I would ask members of the commission if there's a question or concern that you have for this applicant just a quick comment um this is a great example of how those review meetings on Tuesday mornings can actually work and help people right you guys came twice since the last meeting met with us looks great good work I agree I sit on the Review Committee as well and I think it it looks to me like you addressed everything that we had thank you for making yourselves available well worth the exercise Adam let not me you this might you be just a slip of the pen but on zp6 up in two uh on the left side of the porch you're not showing brackets on that one con that's just a I have a figure that you were not going to leave that out it's probably on there but it's on a ghost layer and they turn on and off on me but we'll make sure there is I just like to ask the owners are you are you pleased with the side view now on Windsor and how that roof line the windows the shutters really help bring that all together in the house CU that's really what we find that street view that sometimes is what people see when they're walking by and I think it's very very handsome yeah absolutely we're very happy with this is this is one of those examples where the addition um corrects long-standing anomalies of the up and down and in and out and and well the North Avenue the North Avenue North Street facade remains unchanged the important part on Windsor is just so much better that um it it uh it's it unifies it it simplifies it um and and it really is a huge Improvement to that facade so good good job do I have a motion I'd like to move for final approval base as presented with the exception of the bracket I want a second motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan uh yeah I would I would com and thank you for visiting with us and making and adopting the changes that we were looking for I think everyone wins with a situation like that so uh thank you and yes I approve it thank you Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Stevenson I'm sorry absent Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you thank you thank you thank you so much good luck that's how I like it um new next order of business New Jersey Development Group 359 Congress Street block 1031 lot 2.02 this is a not rated it's a new single family home I'll good evening board Mr chairman Scott Peter applicant here tonight for 359 Congress Street block 1031 lot 2.02 here tonight seeking approvals for a new single family home uh the home is what I'd like to call as a traditional Beach classic I'd like to take a moment and kind of run through the plans and some of the design characteristics and also some of the finished details with the new home uh starting with the site plan is this conceptu final I was hoping for final but I'm opening for any suggestions it work for everybody well do you do you require any zoning changes I do not you're not going to the zoning or plan correct this is planning correct by right yes okay so why don't we call final yeah I'm marking the original thank okay take it away yep so starting with the site plan as you can see it's actually a pretty odd shaped lot it's very angular and has kind of like clip Corners in the back what I did in this case was I took the house and pushed it all the way over to pretty much the adjacent development so I left the streetscape and the front as open as possible with Landscaping grass plant and trees in addition it's a somewhat wooded lot so we're trying to preserve as many existing trees as we can on site um as you can look at it you can see the parking is to the right um and the parking is all the way to the back so the parking for the most part hid from street view uh there's no garage there's no storage so there's no ancillary garage or parking you know buildings that would you know for storage or garage but again the parkings to the right and to the back moving on to the house as you can see we've done wraparound covered decks oversized columns brackets on the columns we also have a wood lattice under the decks and the entire Foundation is going to be a brick veneer uh you know traditional red brick veneer the windows do have grills we have large oversized shutters that are consistent with the window sizes so mimicking when the when you close the shutters it's going to be full width of the windows first the siding we chose is a smooth Hardy Plank with AAC details all the fa and sof materials are going to be a horizontal so kind of running in the direction of the building uh beat it and the decking for the decks is going to be a wood grain composite with um close spindle rails rails as needed often we've been able to do some of these sites we don't often need rails moving on to the front door we've chose to use a mahogany door with applied grills that's the Runabout small portion of the you know the idea and the conceptual of the the house that I'm proposing tonight happy to hear any suggestions or recommendations as well you um before we um before we ask the uh the other members the parking how many parking spots are required for this house two and they and there's sufficient room be between the back of this driveway and the correct so when both cars are put in that you will not see them they will not protrude any more than the house itself okay you asking for comments there's no before we do that there's no curb cut on Park Boulevard right excuse me for a minute Warren did everyone get the rendering the streetscape rendering in their packet no yes Chris has it this one yes thank you to answer question there is no curb cut only the curb Cut's going to be on Congress as close to the other development as possible so again we tucked all the parking in away from many of the main streets okay good thank you um yeah John open it up for questions right Mr Peter I just one small small little detail on drawing a 2.3 which is the uh the left side elevation I think this may be just a cad error but the porch that's on the right side the Le the leftmost column you see that the fascia basically ends at the midpoint of that column which we'd never see happen the the fascia and the beam will load fully on that colum I see exactly what you're talking look like com a little shy a bit shy it won't be a half a column it'll be to the end of that column got it thank you other questions or comments just one trying to think ahead um you know down the road there's really no place at least it doesn't appear to be a place where anything like lawn equipment or anything like that could go am I missing something the for access to the like what typically I that would be a shed and yeah I I I didn't want to compromise of course any standards and have an ancillary building right I guess the question I'm trying to think through is down the road it wouldn't be uncommon for somebody to go oh I want to cut my own grass and you know I would need a storage shed for the lawn mower and things like that doesn't make sense to slide the inground pool a little closer to park in order to accommodate a shed down the road maybe I'm happy to do that um I positioned it where it was because I really wanted to get as much of the existing Landscaping the dense Landscaping there the camouflage to pool would hide that but um I'm happy to do that makes total sense by the way I mean I understand exactly what you did I I will say most folks with these houses that haven't professionally done and if in the event they want to shed they're going to be back to see you guys yeah I just I'm just thinking you can't move pool down the road for clarification does this application include the swimming pool it does okay see need to check the boxes oh sorry about we get all confused that was my point that you can't move the pool down the road that easily so going be tough uh Mr Peter where's the pool equipment going to go uh the pool equipment actually go on a platform right next where the AC equipment is which that is also tucked in we actually carve a section out in the house so if you look out on that same parking lot parking side you'll see a cut in and you'll see the condensers okay got it next to the stair correct um I I'm maybe I'm something of a slave to symmetry but would you explain why the windows on the left side of the house are not symmetrical with those on the right side of the front entrance completely two different sides so the left and right side the one's the driveway side you don't see it all from the street the street side which is Park Boulevard we balanced them and reconfigured the bedrooms to suffice for the windows but they're completely different rooms completely different spaces from one side of the building to the next and it looks to me like you are attempting to put on shutters right yes so those shutters kind of look like they're kind of dangling out without being able to cover the full Windows if they were real shutters I'm going to size them so they are appropriately sized so when they are closed they will cover the full amount of glass they're not puny little shutters so they replicate small shutters on a big window doesn't that give you a problem with your front door or am I just looking I'm looking at the the at the facade where the windows appear to be relatively close to the door now the shutter Edge and the window Edge are behind the columns that's what you don't see yeah but but the question is if you make them larger as he just said they would to cover the windows but they fold back on each other I think they're going to have to fold back so they're by fault okay that's the answer they have to be bya although that should be noted in the material I I I couldn't get there from can be noted as a condition that's what the board wants to see you understand that Mr yes Peter okay and Scott just for clarification there's no um no patio or any kind of no it's all grass again with the pool I want to camouflage it I don't want you to know it's there so there's no brick there's no paper there's nothing there's very little lock coverage on this again because there's a tremendous amount of dense Landscaping now which I'm trying to preserve okay and is this this property is this kind of Rim by like bamboo on this side or what's on it's got a combination of everything there's some pine trees there's like fragm myties there's a little bit of everything in the site okay is there a reason why it's uh the the kitchen and the make great room are on the second floor it's like an upside down yeah just you know traditionally sometimes we do upside down no no specific reason it's but not Kate May yeah six and one half dozen the other if we do them upside down or traditional I'd like to ask about the on the front the mini third floor and mini fourth floor why can't they be combined into making something that looks like a much more normal roof line I just picked up some of the houses that when you go down New Jersey Avenue they have those small little Juliet balconies and it's a small little half story I kind of went with that which to me reminded me of these you know these old beach houses you know so I kind of wanted to go with that concept of a small Julia balcony not really screaming at you but just a small little detail that was my concept behind that um it's a very awkward looking thing and I don't think it's uh represents any kind of basic architectural style for houses I would like to see that be redone into a definite floor with either Dormer windows or you know maybe a couple dmer windows and a doorway out to the little porch you know a little uh you know Juliet porches are awful nice you're referring to the three little eyebrow windows on on top the three windows on top yeah I'm looking at the three windows on top and then there's a doorway below and that comes out to the little balcony yeah yeah but it it's it's it's a very awkward looking top of the house and and and and my doesn't mean any architectural style made even more so you do see those I did on I'm happy to do the dorm I like that idea you see them centered and your your porch to the left side kind of throws it off and makes everything look like it's bulked up on the right um I think Dormers and in that area instead of the three Windows would be an improvement for that for that roof L yeah mhm so dmer Windows uh your W your doors on the third and second floor look like full length glass doors correct with with GRS how about having them look a little bit more like the front door uh with paneling and and you know I can do that your house kind of resembles sort of a late colonial style and uh you know a lot of that would call for uh the doors not just being glass doors um what else did I have here uh you you do mention that your railings your uh spindles are going to be 2 by two correct uh but you don't say what the distance is between them I do close spacing and I can I'll have that updated it's usually like an inch and a quarter one of the things that we've frequently repeated or or pass on is having your railings be an inch and a half a true inch and a half since 2 Ines by 2 in has to be custom cut and everything but then have your spacing no more than 3 in between them closing up that spacing I think is a little more important than actually having that expensive extra half of an inch on each of the railings and it still ends for uh gives you easy me uh maintenance on it so just for consistency on your materials page your application says 2 inch spacing for the railings you just want to make sure that inch and a half are you Pro proposing any kind of fence on the uh the property a wood fence only on the rear a 3ot wood fence not over in all your side yard no only pretty much from the back of the corner through there and back to the front wouldn't the would the fence be part of the application I can bring a cut card for that it's sounds like we're not going to get final tonight which I'm perfectly fine with yeah we're giving the we're giv me the list so I I'll be happy to make the corrections and I I'll get the I'll get all that on the next next and I see that you have some lighting on the building if there's any outside lighting that's going to be going on it I had some of them in the cut cards but I can update them as well okay and I would suggest that you know that looks like a if there's no fence on that corner you'll have a walkway built in by people taking a shortcut that you might really want to consider not with a dense Landscaping there it is pretty if you do dense Landscaping yeah it's it's pretty pretty healthy okay any other questions yeah just a couple um on again back on that same elevation the elevation and the rendering depict two different heights for the first floor so your elevation show six risers up to the first floor and your rendering shows 10 therefore some of the proportions change so for example Le the the lattice below the porch on your rendering is significantly higher than in the elevation so which R which version is it the actual plan version so not not the rendering version correct okay well by virtue of that then uh same thing happens up at the uh balcony the rendering I'm sorry the elevation on a2.0 doesn't look like there's enough head height underneath that roof whereby the rendering shows that there is so I'm a little confused about that as well yeah it's that's actually a brought down roof it's probably only to be about 7t like I said it was just a small little Julet balcony with not a lot of head room I can have it scaled and measur put on there there's no measurements on these now yeah something's not quite right about a2.0 because if you look at where the dash line is for the floor and if that railing is at 42 in it means that someone's head is in scale it means that the the head height there is maybe six feet there's not enough head height in that above that balcony in the elevation the only people using the house are only going to be about four foot that's well they call it a Juliet Balcony right uh I can say that because I'm short yeah yeah so can I in case anybody's wondering around here I'm short I think yeah I can I can have that for sure clarified yeah want to make a motion yes I will make a motion for conceptual approval uh and from the discussions we've had tonight you are going to address the top floor of that to make a more conventional looking top floor with dmer Windows possibly a balcony uh with door in the center uh for a small balcony up there you're also going to look for brackets the size that are a little bit more in keeping with the size of your columns the brackets that you're looking at are too small I didn't bring that out but I was going to uh they're much too small for the columns that you're using and the size of the house uh we also want you to look at all the shutters the shutters on single um double hung Windows uh are okay but when you have windows together you're going to have to have folded back shutters so on either side of that looks like that's eight sets by the way based on my account uh-huh and uh we are also going to be looking at you know things that give any exterior lighting fening uh shed for pool equipment outdoor showers all those other things that would be going on this before we could give final approval on on the roof line you mention Dormers in place of the yeah I did you did okay and adjust the elev that and adjust the elevations head Heights accurate y anybody else I today got to cut anybody else in M your railing your railing specs I did did mention the railings the railings uh could be one and a qu4 uh pickets and uh no more than three Ines in between I got in go by the 2 by two it sh still should not be inch and a half four in inch and half in and inch and a half inch and a half with a 3 inch spacing between them no knowing that Judy will get this complicated motion correct I will set it I got a lot I think I've heard you made awful you're the champ you're the champ boy motion by Mr Carol seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Testa yes Miss bisagno yes Miss Wilson strick abstain Mr Johnson yes thank you I just want to say thank you I know you guys sometimes take it beaten um and you guys have done it to me many times but without what you guys do you wouldn't be the town we have here and it wouldn't be Kate May so I just want to say from even from me from my perspective I appreciate what you do and most importantly it keeps me you know keeps me gives me a living because people come here and buy these houses so you guys had it a little tough tonight I just want to say thanks and you just got to learn how to take a beat in once in a while so appreciate it thank you good night that every now and then thank you next next order of business how's she doing good next order of business Hudson 1017 New York Avenue block 1103 lot 50 and 51 this is a contributing property we're talking about a rear addition a porch siding Windows railings roof and trim good evening board my name's uh Billy Campbell I Am project man manager project uh designer at OS design partners for Mr Hudson can't be here tonight it's another engagement would would you be good enough to pull the mic a little bit closer to your voice doesn't carry so that's fine your name again Billy Campbell okay yep Mr Campbell before you get started you've uh been authorized by your clients to be here tonight and present this and any conditions that may be put on the record tonight yes okay and if at any point you're exceeding your Authority tonight you're going to let us know right yes I will okay thank you okay um I've been uh in front of the board and received conceptual approval on the design in April 15th 2024 um I'm seeking uh with a couple exceptions which was the material list basically um do you just want me to run through the material list or do you need me to go through the concept again it's up to you you I would suggest you go through the plan first and then we come back to the material list sure okay you skip ahead until you get to sp1 which is the site plan uh the highlighted area of the addition is indicated in blue okay the existing buildings the bulk of the existing buildings are indicated in the orange color there okay you flip the sheet to A1 that's the first floor plan uh you'll see that the existing house is shown in Orange y uh the the there would be a new screen porch added to the rear which would be underneath the addition it's mainly second floor addition A2 uh the existing house is shown in Orange and then the addition is shown in blue which is an additional bedroom with two bathrooms and a closet okay the addition is bumped in if you can see on that sheet a foot on other side of the existing building to differentiate it no problem and then A3 is the a third floor it's the attic you know it just shows really the new roof that's going on there but there will be a rear Dormer that will be deleted to make room for that roof Tien into the existing building A4 shows you new New York elevation New York AV elevation it stays the same doesn't really change uh the north elevation which is the side of the building you can see the uh the front half of it uh to the left is all the existing building there is a delineation line there shown in addition is that portion that Jets Out off the back with the screen and porch underneath it there's a deck there that remains have ties in with the screen porch when you turn the page here A5 top elevation which is west elevation that's your rear elevation there that shows the addition and then the uh you know and that it's basically you know maybe a half of the existing building but then you see that the existing building beyond the the outdoor shower remains we're keeping the line of the deck we're just you know building the the masonary peers with we're we we're taking out that part of the deck put in the proper Foundation there cuz that deck doesn't have helal piles or an kind piles so want to make sure we get the structure there uh the bottom elevation South elevation which is the other side elevation shown basically same thing addition coming off the back um and then screening Porton below okay I can run down the material lists uh the roof will be uh Western red cedar shap and in some areas where at the addition there'll be a standing seene metal roof where it stepped in a foot so it ties it all together uh the shingles the wood shingles will match the existing existing building had wood shingles uh the facial will be painted one by uh the sofits will be painted would be uh bbard the match existing uh siding will be uh stained uh Eastern White Cedar shake and windows will be Allwood Marvin ultimate collection well Signature Collection ultimate series other wood trim will be window trim will be painted wood every all the colors will match at existing house basically the columns will be painted wood column wraps and then the de will be epe 5/4 by 6 the foundation will match existing will be uh suco claded uh cm you Billy do you remember off the top of your head what material I'm trying to remember two months ago that that it was the materials that we ran into an issue with [Music] you yeah there were five of them there was the um fascia sofits window trim columns and railings yeah and of course the windows so the windows are now exterior primed wood and you changed all of those materials to ASAC with one exception doesn't look like you're doing any new railings no we we're taking the existing railings just cut great so you've done what we asked you to I there is one um on the siding um just so there's no confusion the you use the term Cedar shake when really it's it's a it's just cedar siding it's a s cider it's not a split no it's not a hand split instead of shake I I would ask you to change that to uh cedar uar cedar shingles okay okay terrific thank you okay I'd like to move like to move for final approval with just the one shift in the naming of the sighting yeah I will second that motion by Mr Becker seconded by Mr Carol Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Johnson yes thank you thank you thank you can I ask you a question for my own education yeah go you're using two different type of shakes uh one on the roof and one on the side although they're both going to have finishes on them why did you choose the Western on the roof one Western is a little cheaper two is that it changes different color than Eastern Eastern usually Silvers out Western turns a little bit more on a darker gray because it receives more sun right yeah correct yeah okay okay okay thank you you're welcome okay new business Ocean Front Properties LLC 1045 Beach Avenue block 11:01 Lots 7 through 9 this a non-contributing uh property rooftop solar panels yeah right good afternoon good afternoon evening evening evening evening uh okay James Leo RCL solar um you guys have the packet in front of you I know how thrilled K May is about solar panels i' I've sat here before in front of you guys this is completely on the flat part of the roof 4 foot Zone minimum all around you can't see anything from the street we're coming down on an inside stairwell against the back wall with our bringing our power down and we're going to jump across and the inverters are going to be behind the um there's already a fenced area for their trash containers so pretty much everything is hidden not pretty much everything is hidden the the wire you have the cable coming down the back of the property no no coming down there's there's an inside stairwell right against the back wall so we're interior and and it's a um it's it's a um um uh it's it's not for the guest it's for there's an inside stairwell there that we're going to come down through each floor to once we get to the ground level and it's um service yes there you go thank you that that then leads to the inverters that are behind and the inverters are going to be behind they have you have a picture of the fenced area that they have their big trash containers in now so that's where the inverters are going I'm sorry that that uh Jersy out yeah well picture are the iners protected fromage because of all the well the protect yeah well the the inverters are going to be actually mounted on the wall and the the it's the big trash dumpsters that are on things I mean we're going to probably put something around them to protect them any questions from the group this is the area yes the white the white fence and where the um just to the just to the right of these two little B these three little balconies is inside there is a a service service that's the key word for the night bring everything down from the roof inside that it appears that it meets all the standards that we're looking for it's not visible from the street of the side yard um even the cable next door has uh the um ion has solar panels on the roof no and we made them do the same too not visible at all from any streets before I know you guys are can't you can't see it so I would I would make a motion to prove the application is submitted second can I ask a question sure uh tours of K may say that all the utility lines uh that in that building run down to the old world 42 tower that they left that there to use it to as conduit for getting all the things to the floors is there any truth to that or should I don't think so I can't I can't tell you definitively because the service there there's two there was two services that came in and then they combined them and they're right to the left of this fence inside is a big area where all the services combine you know big giant onoff switches and everything I think um and then the other where the service came in that got tied in was down the far end on the uh on the other Hotel so I don't see anything coming in in the front both both came in from the back uhhuh do you think the inside of that thing is just empty then I haven't even looked in therea we we go up on the roof we we measure and see what we can do we're on the roof I didn't uh actually Bob's a friend of mine now I'm sure I can go see if Tom Tom is always looking to improve tours of Cape May so observation towers might be in order keep the tour gues honest I'm not sure what's in there but okay thank you bodies so we vote motion by still need to vot I can't speak to that people who didn't pay their their room bill could we vote on this motion yes motion by Mr Tesa seconded by Mr Becker Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you thank you thank you guys next order of business 230 Grand Street Kate May LLC two uh block 10:19 lot 14 this is for a demolition hello hello hello we need name and relationship to the property please I'll introduce everybody good good evening Mr chairman I should say members of the commission my name is Peter jaanus I am an attorney at the law firm of Highland Livin chyro my office represents the applicant which is 230 Grand Street Kate May LLC uh it seems that tonight the applications have gotten progressively easier as the night has got on WE sincerely hope to continue that Trend which I'll talk as little as possible uh just introduce the application briefly this is uh for the property located at 230 Grand Street block 1019 lot 14 uh the request is a relatively simple one the applicant is Seeking a um an approval to demolish the existing family dwelling uh single family dwelling on site um the only thing I'll I'll kind of make mention of is that this is a non-contributing structure as noted on the city's property report and I'm just going to quote from the the second to or the last paragraph I should say on page two of that report which indicates that the present House was built on a portion of the former Depo track bed area sometimes between 1945 and 1956 since 1987 it has since been added to and altered at the back reclad in vinyl and its Windows have been replaced um and I'm going to highlight this portion the property is a non-contributing property in the historic district by virtue of the building's construction date after the period of significance so what we're looking to do today is the demolish a non-contributing structure and then eventually hopefully replace it with something else we have two witnesses with us here tonight the first is Miss Katherine Healey she is the principal of the LLC she wants to she would like to make a a statement and then we have our uh professional engineer and registered architect Mr James Chadwick as well so without further Ado I'll turn it over to miss okay good evening I think you know me except I haven't met Steve before so hi Steve um family generation uh I'm Seventh Generation in Kate may go back to the 1840s uh my mother's side and um I was here a year ago and I was going to demolish the house next to me and my neighbor saw me at the hearing and came to me and said why don't you buy our house and I did I have three children and I now have three continuous properties on Grand Street in a row and um I wanted this property because I want my children and my you know my children are eighth generation and they love Kate May and they're sued about my middle daughters getting married in Kate May in September so we're hoping to have ninth generation in the near than future and um you know I come today because it is non-contributing I Look to put a very reasonable home uh for the neighborhood you've taught me well I've listened to what you taught me last year and I'm working with Jim Chadwick and we're hoping next month to present um where we're going with the property I would just to perhaps save a little bit of a time there's non-contributing property it seems pretty straightforward we can always have a lot of questions or challenges but there's nine points um that have to be made on a demolition um it doesn't require uh a lot of verbiage but but succinctly if you would answer uh each of the first seven the the last two points deal with transfer so the first seven points of demolition if if you would share that with the group certainly Mr chairman you you beat me to it so without further Ado Mr Chadwick briefly um could you just well he's been before this board before do um do no it's not necess sry so he's a professional engineer registered AR architect he's happy to discuss his his education and qualifications to the extent the commission wishes him to do so and he's going to take us through each of those factors I I think we we can deal with the first seven factors we can go right there um thank you sir um as has already been stated it's a one and a half story single family residence it's a colonial Revival style it is as already been said a nine contributing structure so the first point number one that I need to discuss is its historical architectural and aesthetic significance uh my comments are really simple the building has no known historical value it's a non-contributing structure and this this board or a prior board has already determined it to be non-contributing no famous people that we're aware of died at the property no battles were fought on the land that we're aware of Etc it's a simple 1940s 1950s building that has really no architectural significance I need to talk about its current and potential use for those purposes currently permitted by this chapter or for the use proposed um as I said it's a single family residence we haven't yet presented a plan to this commissioner board for what's going to be put on the property but it is going to be a single family residence as well used by my family um so the use is not going to change it will be single family for maybe the next 50 or 100 years I have to talk about the building or the property's importance to the city and the extent to which its historical or architectural value is such that it's removal will be detrimental to the district Andor the public interest as I've already said the structure is non-contributing the building has no historical or architectural value and as such in my opinion its removal will not be detrimental to the district or to the uh to the public interest the colonial revival Style with the front facing Gable is a very common building type I think if you drive down Route 9 uh in Kake County you'll probably see a couple hundred of them so um it's a building that has no true historical or architectural value we need to talk about the extent to which it is of such old unusual or uncommon design or craftsmanship that it could not be reproduced or could be reproduced only with great difficulty it's a very simple structure as you folks already know there's nothing uncommon or unique about this structure uh I'll use as an example uh from a different location it's not Lucy the Elephant sitting on Margate Beach um this is a building that can be easily and very quickly reproduced I have to talk about the extent to which its retention would increase property values promote business create new positions attract tourists and stimulate interest and study in architectural and design or make the city a more attractive and desirable place in which to live the response to that is really very simple the structure is an easily recognized architectural style that's easily reproduced nothing fancy about this building at all um I remember back when I was a young architectural student one of the things our teachers did was send us off to some place that had architectural buildings well I'm from Ocean City where do I head I head to Cape May there are hundreds of buildings here that I looked at that I drove by many of which I sketched believe me when I say this was not one of them it's a very nondescript little structure so it doesn't stimulate interests it doesn't stimulate the study in architecture um it doesn't make the city more attractive and I would venture to say that the new building that we put in on this property will do those things it will make uh this neighborhood more attractive I need to talk about the probable impact of its removal upon the Ambiance of the historic district as I've said a couple times already the structure is non- contributing it's removal will not have a detrimental effect upon the historic district construction of a new structure more closely aligned did I get out of order no um construction of a new structure closely aligned with the architectural style and Aesthetics of the period of interest will be beneficial to the district so that takes me through I guess one through six one through six yep just the next one number seven the structural soundness and integrity of the building and the economic feasibility of restoring or rehabilitating the structure so as to comply with the requirements of the applicable building codes um it's an old building it's functionally obsolete it's not going to fall down um it is structurally sound from that perspective but the problem is the elevation of the floor of this building it's roughly at elevation 7 the floor is below the minimum required floor elevations any repair or renovation or alteration to this building would obviously require under FEMA regulations that we raise the structure you're talking about throwing significant money into raising a non-contributing structure and that just doesn't make sense we wouldn't lift this we would tear it down and with your authorization we hope to do that so that we can put a new and better prop better building on this property that's number seven would you like me to do the last two no not necessary um thank you um do I have any questions comments or motion I I I believe the uh applicant has uh made the necessary proofs and that the standards for demolition have been satisfied so I would make a motion that we Grant um demolition of the structure the application has submitted I'll second the motion could we have questions before we have a vote on the motion sure sure uh C you also have a demolition permission on the house just to the right of that I am not going to do uh that demolition so that house has stayed that house has stayed I've got a new kitchen that went in it and it was approved have you surrendered that uh you know I application I I would like to ask asked because there was quite a bit of money tied up in that and I asked about that to get credit because um I think it was like $1,800 or something so I'd like both these down is no I'm not I'm not taking no I'm not actually when the neighbors came to me and said we would like to use this as our our retirement fund I said that's fantastic the assessment would be independent Tom yeah but you can call me about retracting that application I did I did call you okay yeah Judy as Judy mentioned de call to tell her uh two months ago that I was retracting that to just follow through with can we accept that as a uh you know that is out of the question now that is that is our approval has been taken away from that because it's been subed Tom is that relevant to the current application wait a minute why not I wouldn't I wouldn't tie tie those two things together of time together they're independent okay if you want to vote on this and then I would just like to say that if if there's no further intention of demolishing that house I would like that to be on our on our record that's great because I think that allow me to I Judy was not sure how I did contact Judy almost a full two months ago and and you're representing into a microphone tonight to this board that you're abandoning that yes that permit okay I don't I don't think that that's tied to what we do here tonight but you're representing that to the board yes asking that that be retract that will make Mr Carol more comfortable but part of the um to the entire board I really play by the roles I really try to do things in the right Tendencies so I'd like to get that housekeeping cleared on 236 and we have put some renovation through the proper channels through the winter so we're talking 2:30 and 2:30 only yes 2:30 2:30 only do I have a motion I I think I made it yes motion and I think it got seconded this is before it was opened up for another question sorry motion Jud motion by Mr Testa seconded by Miss Wilson strick Mr copelan yes Mr Carrol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Testa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson strick yes Mr Johnson yes thank you thank you thank you very much thank you for your time and I do love Kate May thank you and I want generation eight and generation nine and my properties are legacies and that's something to be very proud of for the historic Commission to have Legacy proper properties thank you and there was a reason my father drove 54 miles each day there was 50 other resorts to go to but there was a  Kelly King Healey that he came to in Kate May and I'm wear I'm wearing her earrings tonight she she is present you want that in the record oh no she's up there thank you so um thank you for your time this evening thank you good good night thank you good night uh the payment of the bills have been is has been completed um uh I'm sorry um public open to the public Warren oh well um we have two members from the state um and so they're the public but they're not going to present anything tonight are you no so so we'll close it to the public okay as mentioned payment of bills is done Historic District map um as some of you may have noticed um um the historic district map uh was not accepted um as presented at the um planning and and so the question is what to do now um I believe we should um revisit it once again um and I I think there's going to be a real need for um understanding and acceptance of streetscape um but I think it should come back before the HPC um and do I have any questions or observations or comments well I think I think it's um it's it's certainly um an issue that um this board has this commission has passed on um we've passed on and approved a um a definitive map um adjusting and correcting prior map so there is a map that this commission has approved um and that it seems to me is something the commission ought to um take up and present to the planning board to any other body in the city that um needs to approve it and ultimately I'm assuming city council uh which which would adopt the revised historic district and and I think it's important that when we do that that the Viewpoint and the explanation and the things that have to be said to those bodies be said by um a member of the commission and I I frankly can't think of anybody who would do a better job of presenting our our our map uh than the chair so so it would be my belief that we ought to take a um a direct role we ought to present this as a as an H um pc product that it ought to be presented by the chair and that um that cover presentations to really the planning board and and any City body that has to be um uh involved in the process of approving it so uh I I think we need to move forward and go go back and make a complete and successful uh case do we understand what the reservations are and how broadly held they are well um it the meeting was um a little complicated but I think it suffice it to say um it should be a comprehensive presentation meaning explaining why it's an important issue and just as opposed to arbitrary or capricious which is streetcape um I think a little bit of a discussion about the the work effort that went into it including the contribution um by the state the um the other issue that came up which uh I don't want to dwell on but um is there's 187 properties that are included um and the suggestion was made that that they be noticed before notified yeah um which is not required by ordinance but I don't object to doing it um and uh I think given a a couple of months to really put together a presentation this will be the third time third time will be the charm and um I I think we'll present this and and we'll get this issue uh resolved so can I add something one one of the things that I think the the framing of that proposal locally I I think the notice to the people that will be impacted is a very good idea although not technically required by the ordinance but the people that would be notified by that and potentially be interested and you know they be included in the district by that type of move they would also be presented with the ordinance proposal itself which indicates that okay you're now in the district but you're grandfathered in so if there was a concern about oh I purchased this five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago and I I wasn't in the district and all of a sudden I'm in the district and now I'm going to have to pull permit come here and do all they would they would actually not be impacted in that way it would the the conditions of the HPC would be be brought to life when they transfer ownership so when they sell to the next person the idea was that we have a certificate of zoning compliance among two other certificates that people have to get when they transfer ownership in town that that certificate of zoning compliance would indicate you're in the district here's your rating so that that would be on the new owners um whoever they sell to and those people would be notified when they go to you know through the the sale process so that they would be notified through that so I think it in in the sum of it is I I thought that that softens the blow and some of the concerns of well I didn't know that I was going to be included in this when I purchased well you're included but your grandfather didn't and then when you sell that next person will be um having to go through you know the HPC Hoops which on a non-contributing structure much less than maybe a contributing or key so I so that that's a that's a if you will it just runs for the entire there's no time at all it's the entire point of time of ownership of the of the owner at this point it's trans if they own for 70 years and don't sell then they could be grandfathered for years just concerned with seven generations or 10 generations of of people who without without end but um terrific and um I I think it's it's probably a good idea that they get notified even though and and we doing that we wouldn't admit that we're actually we have to notify them it's sort of a courteous it's a matter of courtesy I assume but that's the thing even I think notifying is a good idea to inform them of the process but even if it's adopted without their notification they're not they're going to be grandfathered in so it's not like it's going to be adopted and then come into effect well wait a minute uh that we we had sidebar discussion with um the mayor and some other people and that was one of the conclusions that we're going to tried to do but it it'll have to depend on the presentation that's going to be made and that well sure that I'm my point Mr chairman is that that was a good I I if I'm just offering my opinion here I think that was a good thing to include in that original proposal and because I think it will be received well so whose responsibility would it be to notify those homeowners excuse me so are we going to do it or is another body going to do it whose responsibility would it be to notify those owners if that was the choice being made let back up yeah um we're going to make this presentation the presentation will be so compelling that they'll all volunteer so we won't need that element well this better be good and the details of this uh if if the chair is going to do the presentation uh it the presentation will be developed and shared with some key players um and uh I I would suggest at at that time I would suggest that the HBC will write a letter explaining what the issues are why we're doing this why we want to do this and I would say that the HBC should take the lead on identifying those 187 and that they will have a chance to come here um and so we will have that issue done um before we go to plan and could that be something handled by um publishing it in the star and wave to notify folks as opposed to 18 7 letters or not I I would because um remembering that it's not ordinance required but since it was an issue that was brought up at planning I would say we U notify them individually what what could be more personal than a letter telling you what we proposed to do yeah so we're just going to have to spend the time and effort to send them a letter no I think it's a great idea yeah you guys might recall that in December when we had this whole conversation it was really confusing because there were remember at that meeting there were four different maps at which we were looking they were all com basically composed at different times and in fact we even decided at that particular meeting that the map that we were all agreeing on had a date on it and it was relabeled and dated December 11th so yeah I think that there may be some some lingering confusion about the anomalies that may not yet be clarified and I think our chair is is the individual here in town who understands more than anybody those anomalies and should make that presentation yeah I mean and and it ought to be the map that was approved by this commission I mean I think that's what we're talking about a presentation relating to the map that we approved um presented by the chair I understand you might even have some language John that you I do actually I I I composed a uh a proposed motion for this particular um item and if if if the chair would indulge me I'd like to read that motion if yes by motion okay so since the commission developed considered and unanimously approved at a public hearing on December 18th via resolution 20234 an updated map dated December 11 2023 for the Cape May City Historic District which among other things is intended to fix boundaries to clarify certain anomalies within the district and to include a grandfathering clause I move that the commission now designate and appoint its chair to develop and make a comprehensive presentation to the Cap May City planning board before the end of the summer 2024 and to any other City body as thereafter required or deemed appropriate in each case in order to finalize said map as the official map of the historic district of the City of Cape May you may notice that there's some legal ease in there so I had a lot of help from Jim in writing this some help do I have a second I I will second that excellent motion I'll give it I'll give you a cop all right motion by Mr Becca seconded by Mr Tesa Mr copelan yes Mr Carol yes Mr Becker yes Mr Tesa yes Miss bagno yes Miss Wilson stck yes Mr Johnson yes thank you um next order of business is a an update on the HPC bylaws well this would really be short uh because there really is no substantive up um uh substantive case here to make uh other than having um thoughts that it and this has been essentially a two-year project for which I'm completely responsible for the delay fortunately the regulations and bylaws haven't been key to our proceedings from meeting to meeting but they need to be modernized and and they need to be brought up to speed and made consistent with current law uh but I have had some changes of thoughts about how we might do this and that was to uh and and generally the overall approach I was going to take was to take the regulations that have been enforced for for quite a long time uh try and see if there were instances where we could modernize them to be more consistent with modern practice eliminate things that we might be able to solve and do by means of individual motions and resolutions too much in in the regulations are frozen in there um and there are situations where let's just say meeting times for example and duration where those things ought to be done by motion and decision of the commission from time to time and not welded into bylaws that we have to amend so so that's sort of an approach that I'd like to take but second point is I would appreciate it and I'm going to ask you to circulate the existing regs as we have them and ask you to take a trip through them and see if there are points that you'd like to make about them that you have questions about you think are inaccurate you'd like to see change because it would be really not productive for me to go off on my own and do that and find out that I've missed the thoughts of people who want to of my Commissioners who want to who want to make the changes and third um since I'm not really going to practice law but I'm going to take a crack at doing the draft um I'm I expect that when I get through to make sure that the um proposal will be consistent with current New Jersey municipal land use law and anything else that applies I'm going to propose to turn it over to Chris for a review so that's my proposal to you and i' I'd ask you to have a run through um the regulations bylaws and Judy will make available copies for you that's okay what what is what is a reasonable expectation on timing Jim a year ago I said a few months um and before that and and I and I really confess that there has been a little bit more of of other HPC business that I've been concerned with I I'd really try to get it done by the new year that would be my new goal okay thank you um anything else before this August group well um I did I did think there was another topic that was worthy of our thinking about um because uh and this really involves and was illustrated by the um um in part by the um um Historic District map presentation and and that is that as a group um we are um uh well well structured in terms of our relationship with city council we have um alazon from Council um who um makes our viewpoints known up to the to the council members brings uh us word in advance and sometimes discusses things that the council is thinking and planning and that that works pretty well but what we don't have and and what I think we should have in terms of improvement is a a relationship that is a better liaison with City Administration as a whole um and and and because we can't ask Lorraine to keep to do more jobs than she already is with respect to the to to to the council I think we should have an input um to the administration and I mean the city officers and and and agents and employees I think we should have a more direct pipeline to to them and and that could mean that we would assist them in in the things they do that are relative to um to the historic matters that we handle there are lots of applications there are Grand applications there there are things that go on with respect to the state that this commission could be of assistance with in the time while they're being formulated you know rather than hear about them later rather than um um have to react to things I think we can be part of the process of moving the city's uh the C's um relations uh in historic matters ahead with our input before that happen so I I think we I think we really could use um a um a a commission liaison to the city Administration to help do that and and and I point out that that our chairman has been doing practically everything and and that is just something that it's unfair to have him continue to to do everything with respect to interfacing with the city so I think we need a we need a member um who will be a um a leason to the city Administration and and that's that's something I'd like to um ask us to think about um and and if if we are um um of a favorable view uh to that then I would I would like to structure it into a formal proposal at a at a future meeting but are you assuming that uh the city's not going to give us AAS on one of their members uh but if they do we would have our leas onto them and they'd have an Al on to you I I I think I think the the input Tom since we have the deputy mayor with councel to us I think that what what we've been seeing is is us to the administration not not to the council and let the deputy mayor and our Council on cover that but with respect to the city manager with respect to other city employees um outside Consultants I think we need to be with them so it's a it's a it's a HPC to Administration liaison and and Hope hopefully they'll accept it as constructive and assist them I mean we we provided um evidence of um for example in the uh in the conceptual approvals and in the things we do um to evidence our conclusions and we spend a fair amount of time going over them um voting on them debating them so I think that that that assisting the city going forward for example with its applications to the state um with its applications for Grants uh where we can be a further assistance we should do that they're not exactly heavy on um you know on on bodies to help out and I think we could we could do more it sounds like more of an Al liaison to work with the um city managers that that's where I would that's where I would put the officials that's where I would put the emphasis and and let let the city manager decide what's the best way to help him out but that's where I would start I I will say this I I on the council side of things I think the city city council will be very receptive to that because they've certainly prioritized having the hpc's input before we send things up to the state um in terms of the fire station the uh the the police station that is being formulated right now having hpc's input and in some cases blessing for that is important because we view or Council View use this for what it is which under the municipal L use law and recently court it's viewed as you're viewed as an expert collectively yeah with your Collective knowledge and um that's recognized not just colloquially but it's recognized under the law this is an expert body yeah and and the city the council pretty well knows I mean council's been around quite a while and people on the council know the process we go through and they know how much work we we do put in on these things um I'm not so sure Outsiders know and and and that would be I think of great help to the city to step in and help the city with respect to its relations to the outside so for for tonight um the issue would be whether we as a group agree that this conceptually makes sense and whether we would ask uh Jim to put together a a proposal or did you want to do more than that tonight list of responsibilities are you also volunteering to serve as the caison I think the answer is yes but but I mean it's all up to you all to decide who you want to do it and how you want it done but I but I certainly would like to frame the language for your consideration and do you want to propose like a um like a simple almost like job description so we can like it would be yeah it yeah Steve it would be basically created and say what the role of that person would be and um it it wouldn't necessarily be essentially a bylaw office we wouldn't write it into the into the regulations but it would be something that this body would just approve by you know by motion and and and it would become the way we would approach the city so you're volunteering to draft that resolution for the next meeting I I I'm volunteering to draft it and to and to submit it to our solicitor for his review ah yeah I think and just to be clear I think Mr Testa you're you're pointing to Something in addition to the council liaison um position for that the policy um you know priorities to go back and forth between this board and Council and then the city manager and administration deal with execution and we do I can see there might be a different uh channel for different types of communication and particularly because we have an HPC compliance officer so you might consider having sort of a point person for that officer to go to and that's on the administration side so you you might be able to kill two I mean we'll we'll we'll do if we create the role and the position we'll volunteer that and we'll try to S you know suggest that the city work with us on that and then we'll you know try to go to them and hopefully they'll know who to come to for us and and I do think that we can be of material assistance to the city in improving its product now the the the city has been responsive in um I mean if you look at the course of events and with the exception of some um you know some some slip UPS here and there the city's been improved in terms of the way it approaches these things it comes to us for um for our views on on a lot of advisory reports we formalize the form of advisory reports I think we can pitch in and do more to to help them uh in in all those other aspects and and I would not as I said put that as an expanded role for the council liaison to us I I think we should have a a connection to the administration it seems like it it's an offer uh that is intended to be helpful for the operating group and um a resource for clarification and I would hope they accept it but I don't see a downside um to to making the offer but if it doesn't work I guess we we'll find out about it well I can give you an example because we recently redid the the shade tree commission ordinance the entire ordinance uh just redid that and I worked for months um earlier this year with them on that one of the things that came out of that is that among their membership they appoint uh a member that will be designate the designated point of contact for code enforcement so the my the point of bringing that up is that we have the flexibility if there's some you know exchange of information that can help the city as a whole do a better job you know there's opportunities to to build that into the process and I I don't I don't see what you're saying is you know what the council liaison offers to this board and what the board can offer to the council leaon it might be a little bit different than what yeah I I don't think there's an overlap or conflict with respect to that and and the other part of as I mentioned earlier is if you look at the the structure we have um I mean it either falls upon the chair or it falls upon the secretary the secretary is extremely busy handling our own paperwork um I mean beyond belief that the paperwork is is actually flowing through and and otherwise it falls upon the chair who who has to do everything and I don't think that's fair to him I I also um just for clarification I don't see this as a an ordinance issue I don't see this no I I wasn't necessarily saying that either Mr chairman this is a and all for as a contact Point as a l us on um ideally to go back and forth not just one way communication I I would hope so but again you know we can formulate the position the roles you all can look at what we're doing if you approve it we undertake it and it's up to the city to decide if they want to take advantage of it I I hope they would because I think we can from our perspective I think we' offer them a fair amount I we think in the past and and I and I've been part of this that either one of us none of us or three of us report things to City Council Members or city manager or things and I think if we go through one person that you know they they know who's going to come to them and they have the opinion of the board I think it would help a lot yeah I just I as Warren said I don't think there's really a downside to it at this point no and and I think they're they're looking for that because the past experience recent history is they're looking for the hbc's Fe feedback on projects early um seaw wall like I said fire station police station they're they're looking for that feedback early as part of the on the ground floor of that design process so so so before they ask so without you all having to formally vote on it I'll I'll do up some language I'll I'll ask Chris to review it and then we can submit it to you for consideration and approval at the next meeting okay good thank you okay y anything else before this group did we approve payment of bills yes is there anything tactical on the parking that we talked about last meeting or any update there oh uh those I updated the policy statement to include uh Mr Carrol's Artful way of putting it at the end uh communicated that to both the the trailer ordinance concept and the parking under structures um both options preference for option A with the policy statement updated and both of those were transmitted to the planning board now I think that's going to take some time to percolate through the planning board mixer um but uh Karen has them and and she'll schedule it accordingly and and Judy and I will keep the board updated on developments in that regard I'm sure it'll show up on agenda at some point good thank you anything else move for adjournment second thank you thank you to everyone thanks Mr chair thank you