##VIDEO ID:il28zq09Yr8## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e if nobody shows up it doesn't look good I got I got to the end of the night I go open the freezer I'm like H breeders gave me four big things of water rice I forgot to put them out felt bad Mike and Michelle do was a solid they give us four big tubs of water I the Boy Scouts were supposed to deliver them I gave it to the K May uh the the Camp k for the next day so they were happy with it for yeah I'm good with it I just if you don't need me I'll buy I got I got plenty of stuff to do do you need anything from me okay my boss is here so if he needs me I'm in the other room I always like to be attentive to whatever you guys need hi Bob 3x right 3x 2x 2x 3x two 2x all right may maybe by next year listen I got a little bit of poundage to lose too so I gave Bob a shirt and he's like oh you know it's that's too big it's too tight okay anything you need I'm in there I'll just finish up my bills thank you perfect okay let me know all right for Sarah job and K un States One Nation God indivisible withy and justice for all as we speak here comes Sarah okay that hi Sarah how you doing are good good real good okay let's start with um Paul you don't need to hang hi Kelly no you don't need to hang let's start with overview of the comprehensive fee increases if you can do us a little bit on that how it's going I want to say a comprehensive fee increase I think that's a misleading fee analysis okay so so we um the last I've asked Kevin to update it based on a 5-year synopse for um uh CPI uh and I anticipate having that meeting next week with uh Kevin eron and Marina myself to go over our recommendation we're planning on having a draft potentially for the August 20th council meeting to have a general discussion so that we can start with a ordinates introduction for September so we have it done in time so that when we start communicating about renewals for next year that we give all of our mer Merchants sufficient time to know what the proposed fees for 2025 will be okay this here this is a spreadsheet that we had done a couple of years ago when we first looked at the the overall effort to increase fees what we tried to do with that it's been updated added a couple fees that have done done since okay oh you okay I I was just talking about mertile fees so you know I have a separate analysis that I presented to Council on the Planning and Zoning Board HPC fees right um so that's something different that's separate all right so the two fees that we're actually looking at I guess we can do two issues at one time and that is the first issue is um the recommendation for uh changing the uh changing the information on the on the form that would change the the bedroom uh the bedroom issue and that's this is a onepage recommendation she did you all get that it's got recommendation 5A got another one okay you can keep yeah yeah uh a I think we talked about this at the last meeting I I we're going to be looking at changing you know collecting that additional information on the Merc tiles for the rental registrations okay I'm going to I'm just closing the circle because that's what we'll send to council as a recommendation from the committee and the other one is the one on lowp speed Vehicles which which I think we talked about right and that right and had a conversation with Paul with Aaron with Chief with um Chris Gillan Schwartz we will incorporate that into the 2025 analysis it will be in similar vein to a the mertile license for a bike rental company um and those would be um adjusted based on the analysis that's being done so it will be current with regard to pricing um so now that bike R fee was uh $255 right when we do the 2025 analysis which is underway that Kevin is doing and we'll meet it but inter we'll have a discussion on that it will be adjusted for the five for the fiveyear CPI okay one thing I was going to ask you about the meran CR is there anything in there for cleaning companies this is becoming a big business in town is there okay yeah there is yeah yeah and that's and that's part of how we we're going to when we look at it we'll look you know there's some other different well along with that though I wanted to say that I think cleaning companies should somehow I don't know you know the people they hire aren't always the most reputable if you want to say it and you could say that for any employer could be we could force them to check in with the police department but yeah but but do we do that for do do we do that for the restaurants on the mall do we do that for merchants any at any other location and ask them they don't go into people's private homes what and uh then you know a week later things disappeared well it's just I know what you're saying I've been around but I I remember when we had you had to register to work in this town you had fingerprint it and photograph because I did it so I know things have changed but we're not we're not going to go back not changed believe me I may be old but I still have some brain cells I'm not I don't know you can't hear speak more not me eron I know what I'm doing testing testing you you heard me okay all right okay that's okay thank you Ain but it's not only just having a mic on you got to get a little close and yeah personal otherwise it doesn't get it doesn't pick up I I think it's only cleaning services based here in town not cleaning services that come in from out of town that have a license same thing think that they have Mercantile licenses I'm just telling you I don't care what they do there is a there is a code that's code 36 house cleaning services 310-16 it's $175 right how do you get the people from out of town that come well it's the same way as landscapers landscapers that come most landscapers don't live in town but they all come in I know but when I was on the police department we would check them out to see if they had a meraner license well if we we'll put the word out there there and you know it's no different than landscapers and the other contractors and but we don't we don't do things to make it easy for ourselves so landscapers why don't they get a a decal put on their truck or their trailer so the police or the the guys supposed to be checking this out can drive by and say oh he's got our this year's license and maybe we can look at doing well I'm just I know other towns and other towns do that other towns have a decal for their run your town I'm just telling you some suggestions I don't think landscapers from other towns have Mercantile licenses anymore either and they should be so I guess maybe what we're saying is that the lsv issue is larger than just lsvs it's it's licensing anyone that comes into the city to do buiness well the only difference is we have a license for these folks but the only people that get them are the businesses that are based in no that's not true they're out of town well I'd like to know how many cleaning companies got a license this year some of them get but your point how many got them I don't know but there's so many that you're gonna find that are just we did that Joe that Coes over and cleans four houses on a weekend or you know there's a lot of I'll say people that they just do it yeah on the side that it's not truly I mean is it a business yeah it's a business but it's not a Bonafide business that has a storefront and but not saying that they should not have a mertile license I agree they probably should but you would agree that every firm that does business in town is supposed to get a mer license I that is true I wholeheartly agree with that yes and and I do I do agree that there's a lot of vendors that come into town that don't have licensing and it's it's an issue that we're going to be addressing and having to work on increasing them for sure and I think having a decal is a good way to from a quick glance to be able to know hey if there's a landscaper driving through town even if they're not on the job but they've yeah do they have a sticker or not you know if they don't have a sticker maybe you follow them for a little bit and find out where they're going to pull in and you know it's not it's it's not we're not a a lot we're not a driveth through town you know if people are driving in town we're at the end of the we're at the end of the road here so they're not driving through Kate May to get to somewhere else typically there is one wrinkle too and I remember when we did this the first time there uh certain landscapers uh are licensed to uh use chemicals they have a federal permit I believe which I think makes them exempt from local lure I'm not sure about that but I think we came across that the last time we talked about this we'll deal with that we'll we'll work I mean we're working on getting as many people that are should be licensed licensed okay all right okay and if you would uh I I think I think I like the suggest of the committee that we keep a track of this because it's it's as comprehensive as we can make it we may have missed a couple of fees somewhere in the code but this is as comprehensive as we can get to all of the fees that are imposed on folks how much they are and specifically when they were first enacted so that we can make sure that our inflationary adjustments are keeping up with fees across the board okay so Dennis yeah I know it's a separate recommendation on on the lsv lure recommendation 7A yeah but that says the same thing that I thought Paul just said which is if they do business they're supposed to have a mercanti license and that is that is in fact just what he said that's the case then is the recommendation the fact they should get it or the fact that there ought to be some method of double-checking that they have it well supposed to get that's the second that's the second issue and that's enforcement because to me this I'm not sure that this recommendation is necessary if if Paul's saying well it's a follow up to a recommendation we made two years ago no I know that but I that's because I didn't think that they needed one but the city has now recognized the fact that there does need to be an increased capacity to surveil and enforce traffic regulations safety regulations um and I I think we're ahead of the curve a little bit because of what happened in Wildwood two nights ago which is the very thing we were saying how are you going to police that sort of thing and so now we we're going to have an ordinance which requires but I disagree I think we're already on the Forefront of that the mertile is just a formality you know our police chief has been very active in in working with the L Community yes I'm the one that brought this to the Forefront with this safety pamphlet and meeting with so we're already I think we already have a good connection with the the vendors that come into the town and and and rent drop off lsvs there have been all have been very Cooperative with the city and working with our safety advancements you know maren and and chief F all have a great pamphlet stickers and and the Outreach has been great uh we're now partnering with lower Township to kind of have a joint combination to make sure of Cape island is covered you know with these you know the lsv so you know the mertile you know is really a superflous just a final recordkeeping to to acknowledge what we already know in is just to have that formal hey document who they are and and that we are we meet with them every spring um they're they're extremely cooperative and more than willing to do everything sharing with us their rental agreements and how they manage their businesses so it's been a very good working relationship and that's the carrot side of the equation and that and that's the same goes for the bike rentals you know for bike safety you know you know they working with our chief ashol and the bike safety you know BAC and stuff so it's not a problem um well wait a moment yeah go ahead before you move on I mean I have the last year line by line of all the mercant licenses all the mercanti license for landscapers so we're just we're illustrating that there is an opportunity Revenue opportunity for us to begin to reinforce the laws that already exist that everybody in town should have a license that's that's enforce and if that list is accurate it doesn't include some of the largest landscapers here in that's kind of what I was alluding to when we when I said a minute ago that what Morin's done and what what what the city has done is the carrot approach to this whole thing uh the city needs to needs to be aware that there's a stick approach on the other side and that's enforcement and we've always talked about the need for enforcing things we ask the city to do if the city can or won't do them then they're not they're not worth they're not worth recommendations so that's I guess end of speech um let me ask you go let's go back to that residential rental uh ordinance for a minute and let me ask Sarah if if you could review for the committee the stuff you found because Sarah uh has spent the last month sort of U counter opposing real estate rentals licenses particularly the large uh properties against the rental bases of of real estate companies and she hasn't completed that work but what she's found is pretty pretty interesting so if you can share that with us so this was really just looking through two and a half brokes there was about 550 properties in town and I came across uh 22 properties that were five bedrooms and above that didn't have merant licenses your closer it's just time have too far okay thank you you start that one again I'm sorry sure absolutely so this was just combing through the properties found on two and a half brokerages in town uh this wasn't looking at Airbnb properties this wasn't looking at vbo properties and I came across 225 bedroom and above properties that didn't have meril license es and 44 properties that were less than five bedrooms that didn't have merile licenses so it was 15% of the properties that just one brokerage that didn't have them Sarah can I ask what was your source for uh you know investigating and and finding this information sure absolutely so I just went to the different Real Estate brokerages websites and then I clicked their rental listings I went to the different Real Estate brokage websites and then I clicked uh the real estate properties rentals and then right through there I could see all the different bedrooms and I just compared them to a master sheet that Dennis had sent me and that was current through what period of time Dennis the the the the list that um Sarah was using as a source the current list for this year through July period yeah it it was the property records property records for the whole town so there's a there's a a spreadsheet that's maintained with each property address in it that has applied for a mertile license right so that was what we yeah I knew that Erin had said the last time we had the data that it was not complete that she still had ones that were being followed up now I'm I'm certainly not suggesting that all of this is included in that but I just was trying to make sure that when we were looking at that it what period of time it was and if it was in fact up completely up to date to the city's records that's all so I had followed it along in 2022 to follow it through the end of the year there was virtually no change between August and the end of the year yeah so I think this is a pretty clear indicator that there's there's lots of properties weren't getting mercant licenses and because you only looked at two Realtors right yeah half of another one so 550 properties in total and it was about 12% of what I looked at that didn't have 12% that were advertising rentals and not and didn't have a mercant license great great work thank you yeah that's just the start yeah I'm glad you did that I'm glad you did that because we've always said that if if we don't do something like that we'll never be able to understand how how important are well to understand what the Gap is quite frankly I mean it's always been sort of not knowing what the denominator really is you know so it gets down to it gets down to a fairness issue again well and we've talked about that that this is really an equity issue um you know and making sure that everyone's you know playing by the same rules um so yeah um as I said excellent work it's very value um value add it now the next step after that though is what's the city going to do about that uh we uh I'll be happy give the I'll be happy to take the information that's a copy of a copy you can pass the actual you had mentioned that you were having trouble that's a Google Document you were working with right it's a Google Sheets document can you can you transfer that into just a straight yeah Google Documents are more difficult for those of us who are Microsoft World I'll send that over yeah all right okay you send it to me and I'll I'll get get it through the okay all right thanks okay uh Martin you had something on beach tag revenues this was the leftover from last meeting yeah so um before last meeting I had um taken a look at the um the different categories of sales of beach tag licenses from the different sources so we have Jersey tag we have uh the tax collector's office we have beachfront um and I compared the first month of this year's sales um to the same period last year and uh there was there was really one thing that jumped off the page on the analysis and I I I'm I'm a little hesitant to reach conclusions on the basis of one month's worth of information especially since Fourth of July wasn't included in it yet so truly summer wasn't in there yet but same period last year to this year there was a significant increase in Daily tag sales and a corresponding decrease in weekly and three three-day weekend tag sales so um from a from a revenue perspective to a certain extent I think that's good that there's more daily tags because it's the I would call it the highest profit margin tag because the the expense is the same whether you're paying $10 for one day or 25 for for for a week for eight days so the city realizes more from daily tag sales on a per tag basis but once we have the additional data which I I need to Oprah to get the uh to get the updated spreadsheet um I think that there's some conclusions that we can also reach about the strain that that puts on the city when you see a significant increase in the number of of people that are coming in just for the day um we've there was an an editorial in the star wave a week and a half or a week ago um and Jack theorized that it was the hot weather in Philadelphia and other regions that we're bringing more people into the City and causing a traffic problem um I've heard from people around the city that especially at 3:00 in the afternoon there's significant traffic delays now here in town that haven't we haven't experienced before well it would make sense that if you're coming in and using the beach for the day that's about the time that you would be seeing a significant number of people leaving from the from the beaches yeah so I I you know I I think that there's it's interesting when you see significant shifts in buying behavior and I'll be interested to follow up and I'll report more once I have the July data uh because I think that will confirm whether was just something really temporary or whether there has been any type of significant shift in behavior in Cape May City well I can report that through July I just got the numbers um we we're up over 600,000 in Beach tag sales as a whole it doesn't break it down at this point in time into the categorizations but overall sales are up so prices were up 25% yeah so and some of it is attributed to that but if you also look the number of tags are up too so the overall because of the number of daily tags yes yes so you you're when you're buying two daily tags versus a week's tag the revenue the city recognizes slightly less Revenue but you sell more tags so I and I'm not really talking about the number of tags and revenue is virtually assured to be up because of the fact that we did uh increase the tag prices to be more reflective of Market we were trailing Market what I'm saying is that if there's a shift in be in behavior of the people that are coming to Cap May it has other it has a ripple effect and and until we really know what's really happening we can't really try to predict that ripple effect um I I don't think it was the hot weather I think it was there are probably other factors and I think it's important information to understand what we're trying to do is drive revenue and from a revenue perspective daily tags are a good thing I I me I I it's the highest like I said it's the highest margin tag but it it could impact for example occupancy taxes it probably has a positive impact on parking so there's there's you know when when a pebble falls into the into the water it sends the ripples out we don't yet know what the ripples are I think your concern before Martin was that that occupancy is going to be down because people it's actually not I have the occupancy numbers through July and it's up and so it's par and so it's parking from last year yep so right now that's good that's a good thing yeah it's good on that was concern before and all the major categories at this point well let's say and and Commercial tag sales are up yes commercial tag sales are up signicant so you'll with that being up you'll see you're going to see some declines in the number of 3 days in weekly sales especially when you itemize some of the different when you look at where some of the commercial tags were bought and you look at the corresponding sales on those beaches that are out front of them the weekly and um three days are down on those on those Beach they're not they're down a little bit they're not down but the the daily tag sales are up the daes are up yes so that's there that's something that's happening and we don't know what it means yet and and I will just say from a traffic standpoint you know I on a daily perspective for the last year during the summer the the traffic going home at in the afternoon has not changed it's the same this year as it was last year so I I wouldn't say that there's any change in the driving characteristics do you go out west K this year yeah traffic leaving West Kate May at 4:35 I'm saying leaving leaving Kate May is it's the same as it was last year as this year I'm just telling you that I disagree if you take the West C I mean yesterday was tremendously worse on all three rain bring this up Paul I mean that's but I mean I don't that's notal uh and well you but Martin want to brought it up not I didn't bring it up I'm just I'm just noting there there's not a significant difference from last year to this year of the traffic leaving the city so you're able to measure traffic leaving the city Paul you're able to measure that I drive home every day oh you you do it so yours is anecdotal as well right yes okay I just so so we we could spend a lot of time on this what I what I would factual wait it's not anecdotal it's factual going to make a comment I I think what we need to do here at this point is what this committee has done for the last four years and that is to get some data and let's take a look at it and see if there's Trends and and and issues that may be arising in that data so we'd like to we like to have the city share all the data you just talked about in terms of occupancy and and Beach tag when we get towards the end of the season we'll we'll share that for sure well that's a good that's a good report though for July it sounds like July was great well that' be great but we don't the other thing we don't know is the the whole business of traffic is an anecdotal response everybody's got an opinion about traffic the city hasn't done a traffic study in 25 years well Paul are so wait a minute Bob all right go ahead so maybe we ought to suggest that there be a traffic study so that we don't have these opinions floating around about what what roads crowded what roads not crowded I I think to me the better way to do it would be to actually have a a traffic study and and particular traffic study as it relates to parking in 2024 2025 that the studies that the master plan look has looked at are all 25 to 30 years old traffic study is not going to show parking a traffic stud is only going to to show the traffic moving in and out of the if you commission the study they will they will and we can probably we already probably doing it because we have the the the radar signs that we have that the city has up collects traffic data so I you know I can I was going to recomend that we have get that yeah you know something to count the cars going out of town and yes you can I make a a comment why don't we wait until we get the seasonal data take a look at the daily numbers versus what the daily numbers were last year Apples to Apples comparison um we've heard some anecdotal comments made um that people are choosing not necessarily to rent in Cape May because of the expense and the cost and that they're seeing more people renting off Island again it's anecdotal so I I think rather than jumping to all of the conclusions it would be best if we really had the full picture of this season versus last season and then say really what are we seeing what's standing out to us and and and planning around that and then Dennis um then going back and saying maybe a traffic flow study might make some sense for us as a planning for next year but I think rather than I mean because I think we all have our experiences I've been on the west you know going out that town I live down at the East end of town so I know what it is when it's you know storms are rolling in so and all of a sudden it looks like I95 in Philadelphia so I think we all had those experience and have heard those things but I'd rather look at the numbers and then try and draw our conclusions from there um so that's kind of what I said yeah I guess then I'm yeah I I'm not sure I don't know we need to wait till November though to do the analysis I think that I mean July would be very telling because it would be half of the summer so the July data is basically completed at this stage and I'm working with Kevin to be able to take care of that well let's look at it this way uh the thing I was going to say to to the meeting today was that we're going going to be going to a b bimonthly meeting we're going to meet every other month for for the coming generation and so uh let's have the let's have the city data collected and given to us shortly after Labor Day so that by the October meeting of this committee we can have some sensible conversations about what data is I we can't we we've never done anything with with conversation or opinion in this committee we've we've we've worked with data we show we ask where the data takes us and we make recommendations I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves I frankly I think the Texas Avenue situation it's my own personal experience because my family lives there it's a nightmare but and I go there every day at 4 o'clock but that's just another anecdotal story we need some data and we need it as shortly after Labor Day as we can get it so that we can make some sense out not just not just that but uh revenue from all of these sources we need to know whether or not the recommendations we've made are bearing fruit or whether or not we need to change the recommendations the only the only thing I'd say Marine to your suggestion uh is that if you think about it uh when you're talking about a traffic stud Counting Cars thinking Counting Crows that's a a band but anyway Counting Cars you're too old to know what that I know what counting croses but Counting Cars uh if you wait until and not do any thing for the remainder of the summer and you think about it you're probably then looking at two more years because you're going to want to do the Counting Cars next year and then you want to do it again the following year in order to compare so if you started if you start at least Counting Cars the second part of August or the last week or through Labor Day at least you have a DAT data to talk about data you'd have a data point that you and indicated that he has a year earlier than you would otherwise I I think Counting Cars is just a very minor a traffic study is much more robust and bigger well but I think there is some there is some data that's available I think now is that correct whatever but but it's still limited because that if you it depends on what you're looking at the data for and what you're needing the data for if you're if you're looking for true data of who's coming in and off the island itself you know you'd have to do counters at both Bridges the the the data collection that we have have are I mean you see where the the speed collections are so they're inside so the if if I'm collecting you know even a th000 feet in off of on Lafayette and Washington I get both lanes of traffic that way but it's not accounting for okay traffic coming you know coming over the bridge that's going out towards te you know I don't I don't have any way to capture traffic that's coming in and out of Texas Avenue at that same juncture and point because the how you would do a traffic study that analyze intersections is different than you do analyzing just flow of traffic on a singular point on a road so that's a fair point May when you're when you're establishing a traffic study as an engineer you look at what's the purpose of it and in what you're doing because you're going to put your counters and your analysis points at different locations based on what you're trying to focus on so maybe so maybe instead uh a a determination is at least made earlier in the process as to what we might want to capture and why at least at least and that's why you're saying nothing is going to would happen this year because that's a practical reality and I'm not suggesting that traffic is the result of daily beach tag sales all I'm saying is we've seen a significant shift in buying Behavior and the earlier that we can start to think about the impact of that on the city the better the response the city can put in place to recognize is it temporary is it permanent it starts it gets you started to thinking that's that's what I want to try to do is just provide the information to you so that you can you and City Administration can start thinking about what does this mean for Cape May does it mean we need more traffic enforcement does it mean we need more parking meters you know what what what what is the response if we're seeing a change in buying Behavior well let me back that down just a minute Martin I I and we don't want to get we don't want to get too far ahead of our charge we we need to establish first of all what data we need to completely understand the revenue aspects of the city yeah what you study and what and and what money is coming in what sources of revenue are there that are not coming in and why not and why can't we do something about it and then the second charge of the committee is to is to examine whether or not the revenue is appropriated properly and its services are provided to support the continued growth of that Revenue that's that's what our mission is I I I I don't want to get too far ahead of that because I don't think I don't think it's our charge I think I think we need to do that uh but what we're talking about parking studies we need to make a Nexus between parking studies and revenue and budget Appropriations I I think that that's a discussion we can't have until we see some data that's fair point does the city um does the city collect any cell phone data any aggregate cell phone data no so we use uh an old city a product called Placer AI it's a 30 million cell phone panel and what we use it for is to tell us how many residents we have how many visitors we have where they came from and so you're not it's not a traffic study in the sense of how many vehicles are moving past a certain intersection or more importantly how many are circulating around the mall or on on the beach um but it'll tell you spending habits because have access to credit card data and so to Martin's Point when you're thinking about who's coming in for the day you can actually track that you don't necessarily know which Bridge they're coming over um but you could know what the quantity is and it might reinforce some of that data the other thing I wanted to add on that point about the day tags I don't know if anyone saw the Airbnb news this week um now it's not necessarily applicable here but there was a Airbnb stock is tanking in part because they're getting shorter lead fewer rentals but shorter lead times which is suggesting that people are making their decisions to come down anywhere to go anywhere later you know like oh next week I have a day off you know maybe I'll come down so they're just coming down for a night they might be buying two tags which would still support the idea that the revenue is still coming in on on but that stays but that was that data from the I'll say the Jersey Shore type data or that that's Global so so I I think I would say Kate May in the Jersey Shore trend is probably different than I'll say the global Airbnb Market yeah yeah but I'm an Airbnb host too and I have fewer rentals this year and they're short like I just got a request this week for two weeks from now which is really unusual we're seeing a lot of last minute pickups at Congress Hall as well like we're not we're not sold out for next week yet but we will be but we will sell out yeah that job that tracks uh what what I learned from Airbnb versus the market for vrbos for a longer period of time they've been specializing in two and three day rentals whereas Airbnb was always pushing the weekly rentals now it's been shifting back everybody's doing two and three day rounds through the market and it's not just K May it's it is happening in K May by the way and it's it's happening in N Nationwide it's a trend that we ought to be looking at especially with respect to occupancy tax how much but it is hard to do short day rentals at the shore because it's hard to find the cleaning services to come in a lot of it's very hard to find midweek or or the off Saturday or Sunday cleaning services possible yeah what it's almost impossible right yeah so theer data is not expensive for a Quarter Square same day that was the other problem yeah so the the player data is not expensive um it's increasing in price because it's becoming more popular but for us an annual subscription is $88,000 we're about a quarter square mile so K makes a little bit bigger and probably would be a little bit more expensive but it's a bigger budget um but you need to have someone in house who can look at it and analyze it and I don't know that there's capacity for that this is this is why you're on a committee joke because that that issue you talk you you suggested tell us more about that program a data collection program I've heard about it so if you imagine Old City Philadelphia it's a tourist destination right we get we Independence H in the Liberty Bell and we want to know that our we also have Office Buildings so what we've seen over time is while our residential population is doubled in the last 10 years our employee population is bottomed out they've also changed the definition of employee the way it works is do anyone ever use location services on your phone you might be in this thing I use it all I used a map to get down here to get around this crash which was not successful um but uh 30 million phones and they have an algorithm and they calculate out who's coming and they can they have demographics age gender race Etc um so you really get a a snapshot of who's there and Trends over time um along with spending capacity they also have the similar programs you can get through the credit card companies too that they can do aggregate data just from aggregate credit card purchasing and and there's L technology because we've done the Parky meter apps as well so everybody's using their phone for Parky meter apps that's a great way of collecting data that really is accurate when it comes to who's in town what they're doing where they're spending do they uh aggregate the data and deliver it to you job or is it something that you have a decision support analyst and also who works through it all of the above so first of all it's aggregate right so you can't see that your phone job's phone is at this location um at a certain point um and it's anonymized uh and then we have someone in house who can read it uh you it's just a web platform so you go in and enter what you're looking for you can generate an automatic report but if it becomes more complicated there is support and it's about 50/50 sometimes we run a monthly report we want to see how Trends have changed what time of day people are visiting you know that's the type of thing that informs traffic right if you see that your busiest times of day here are at 3:00 that might inform how your lanes are configured at that time of day and you end up changing that over time and that's the data if you ever go on your Google Maps and you pick up a restaurant and they say oh this is their busiest times that's self that's that aggregated data so now we're back to a a a data collection system that's going to help us make all kinds of decisions on revenue and spending so let's let's as a committee explore the recommendation that we might want to have the city buy that system or get involved well I want to I want to you making the recommendation but also understanding there's got to be someone at the other end of the the the line who's going to be supporting and analyzing that data and at present just doing include in your Rec at present that person doesn't exist so it's just not a one you know it's just not a purchase and you know I think there's needs to be and what data are you looking for to drive what decision you so it's it's not just yeah you have getting a whole bunch of data Paul all these questions obviously what are you looking at what are you looking for what what's what's it all these questions obviously are going to be ask and answer that but the process by which a system like that gets Incorporated but it has to be I have to say that like that because this being is this meeting is being streamed and being picked up and then the next headline on the next star and wave is oh the city's going to collect all this data and know who's coming in and out of town so so you right Dennis my recommendation for purp that either the committee as explores has a conversation gets a pitch that's what we'd like yeah this not a recommendation I didn't hear that the recommendation was to buy my I heard a recommendation to explore thank you Russ and what and what and and what you would do with it once you have all this data what are you going to do with it you're going to double the parking fees from X time to Y time are you going to you know reverse the question what data do you think you want and let that's well either way either way it's explore is the key word for the St and wave not you know and it's a it's a question it's a question you always ask what's the data well and that's why I did the exercise okay is to recognize the shift in buying Behavior now we have to start thinking about what does that mean for the city of capan we don't have to solve that today but we can start thinking about well maybe we should be doing more strategy work and building somebody into the budget for next year that's equipped to be able to do that whatever whatever the outcomes are when you see a significant change you can expect that there will be other changes that follow we don't know what they are and that's all I was trying to say but I just looking at some of the weekly data the last three weeks um overall revenue is actually been less than last year so whereas July we were very very robust the last three weeks and a lot of that we've had some bad weather days on key you know like fourth fourth like Fourth of July Sunday that you know that Sunday was a killer it rained so nobody picked up their weekly tags but then when you look at you know so that that weekend was a real low point for weekly tags but then the following Monday everybody came in and bought all their weekly tags because they weren't going out to to a tagger on a pouring rain day so it it's you know so some of the you know early data was very robust but some of the last couple weeks yeah but when R so one one way we're having business one way we're doing business differently this year is hold yes and I agree so I had conversations with uh Jody at the at the mac and and his early numbers they were really low because they were all up on the beach because we had good weather you know these last couple weeks I bet you if I have a conversation with the Mac their numbers are puffed up because they're doing other you and I think that's the the positive thing about Kate May is we have things to do for you know regardless of those weather things you know the city may lose out but then other venues within the city pick up and have a benefit and that's why I said I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions from one month's data yeah like see the July data so that we can see did it continue or did it curtail y so Paul one way we're doing business differently this year compared to last year is digital Beach tag sales so the data that's you're providing will you be providing a breakdown for digm S of look yeah because that that look buying Behavior could be changed I mean we're talking about things anecdotally but some buying Behavior can change as well because people people may be buying beach tags in advance when um coming down or there may they may because the behavior is different than it was before it may affect the Ultimate Sales in some way the total numbers of sales so just I think it would be helpful for us to have the total number of the digital sales as well just to we are we are aggregating that data separately our our physical sales and the digital sales so that we can track those numbers because we want to see how they are doing individually okay because in that way look we are we can compare compare apples to apples from one year's numbers compared from last year compared to this year even though yeah it's because of the price difference never going to match up we're tracking both so thank you do I hear a recommendation from the committee that uh we begin to look at that system that job was talking about that we understand what it is and what it does and well I think again from my perspective it's not it's not just looking at the system it's understanding if we had the data or what will this help us solve for our committee yeah I mean that I mean that's I was going to say that next oh okay it's almost like we have this the recommendation we would be would let's take a look at the system and then secondly let's find out what data let's determine what data we need to look at that would be helpful to our committee to your point about our mission yes which is about the revenue side exactly I think that goes back to from the city standpoint input from Paul as far as what we should be looking for if we're going to be talking about this type of system what particular issues would be should we be looking at so I think that's a key part of this right and and then the tail end of any recommendation we make as a committee is going to have to speak to Morin's point a minute ago which is if the city's going to do it then it's going to have to spend money to make sure that it's done properly the enforcement and the Staffing is critical on everything were're recommending if we don't have people doing it if we don't have people doing what what we were doing here with Sarah you can't expect Sarah to do that every day but so but in doing that for example we we've been able to identify people who ought to be noticed and fined because the city said if you don't get a license for this year you're going to have to pay a penalty well it definitely shows the Gap it definitely shows gaps that we need to look at for sure well not just look at ver it verifies you know what you what everybody was thinking it it it it Narrows down hey there is that true Gap out there that the Gap does exist not just inity but it's you have solid verification that the Gap is there and it comes down to enforcement because this was the second year the first year was was peaches and cream the second year was come on let's do this if you don't do it you're going to be penalized this is the year where we have to penalize people because that's the only way enforcement works properly as you know they were all notified so Sarah not to put you on the spot but what I'm I'm just curious are you going to continue with this effort yes I want to continue it and along those lines I was just thinking too do we have a list of all the commercial Beach tag Property Owners like I said every merti like I'm working on that I'm working on that only because sometimes we don't always sometimes we don't always know when they come out you know who they are necessarily you kind of generally know CU typically when somebody's coming in buying 50 commercial tags they're usually purchasing them with a corporate check so we kind of got it we know those aren't usually our cash customers but others are just give me four commercial tags because they want them for R the big houses get commercial tax but also people who rent houses b&bs get them too because it's a commercial tag so are they supposed to have them who has them so if you rent a property and you offer that as an accommodation to your guest you should be purchasing a commercial tag okay CU one thing I have heard anecdotally is that some people are circumventing that by buying daily beach tags that's okay well that's fine okay okay but what's not buy a seasonal tag and give it to their gas gotcha okay I was just wondering if that's why the daily numers were high they could do a daily then actually the city is better off Revenue was you it this week and then they give it to the next person I hate I hate to beat a dead horse here but going back to what Sarah has done that's whatt it shows clearly that there's a problem uh but Sarah Sarah shouldn't be tasked with this no no I I I mean personally I think I don't think I think you given enough data to show that they the true Gap is there I'm going to probably catch up with Martin on some of those other companies and and look at how we can be more proactive on the city standpoint So to that extent I I think I I'm not saying not but I'm just saying what you did was great to at least hey that is a true verification of the data Gap that that we're missing well even even what Martin said with the uh with the Landscaping if they really are only four firms I mean we've already I've already talked of Code Enforcement regarding that issue so we're we're working on a a thing a process for that so we've already identified that one they could be at the bridge at 7:45 in the morning and just take no they're driving around town all the time all you have to do is just pull over and basically say yeah I mean you know it's it's that's one thing since they are out there doing other activities is not that farfetched let let me if you will are we all right on that recommendation uh in terms of the of J's idea okay I'll I'll draft that up and pass it around to you so just so you know what we're looking what is that system called again Placer so the website is placer.ai a oh boy all right Martin you had on the agenda from last time some update on parking app do you have anything there no okay no I wasn't mind okay all right you're off you're off the agenda uh speaking of that let's uh I I sent around some documents which I found actually sections of our ordinances and and it's in conjunction not just with penalties incurring uh penalties given rather for failure to comply but it also attaches to the mercanti licenses because we if if somebody is not is running their house and they don't have a meran license they're already subject to a penalty uh under Section 310-15 so I and I pass that around to you copy of that all right um the the bigger issue is the other the other thing I passed around which is article three of the code did everybody get that article three article three is uh the general the general code for establishing penalties uh and if you notice we're looking at fees as a form of Revenue to make sure they're current updated accurate we also need to look at penalties because the last time this this city did anything about setting penalties was 1997 uh and if you read the document you'll notice that not only is it stale in terms of calendar it also has some ridiculously low fines in it for example in section one whatever those fines are for whatever that violation not to exceed $1,200 $1,250 City might want to consider looking at that uh in terms of a enforcement tool that if somebody does something that's going to be subject to a fine of a lot more than 1250 they may not do that so so yeah and Dennis I'm going to um ask Chris Gillan Schwarz to take a look at this and maybe provide some you know uh analysis compared to other municipalities in the area um so make the recommendation but I'm also going to take it one step further and we can talk to Chris but but there are several like and the second one is a fine not to exceed $100 so one of the things that one of the things that he's going to want to look at we'll need to look at is there may be other statutes that limit the maximum penalty for municipal offenses as well actually Steve other parts of the code uh have set their own fees in other words this is the the boiler plate for penalties this section but other sections are permitted by code to make their own fees so there are like for example the merant license fee if you look at it it's uh it's actually where is it do I have that or they give that away oh there it is okay the meranti license penalties is a lot stiffer than the than the 1997 section because it says that uh if you don't get a meranti license and you're convicted of a violation of that the fine is not less than $100 and every day that you're in violation is $100 so that's a that's a tougher penalty and that's the penalty that the folks that Sarah is found are exposed to so we're really talking about actually doing something about enforcing these codes in order to encourage everybody to comply with them well keep in mind we're talking about the the threat of a fine because ultimately um look the fine gets gets paid in one of several manners one somebody gets issued a summons and they just sarily decide to pay the fine yeah on the other hand they decide that they're not going to sarily pay it they think that they have some some type of defense and they decide that they want to litigate that instead if they decide to litigate that instead they take it to trial and even if they take it to trial ultimately the penalty is going to be determined by the judge and the judge is the judge has parameters as far as to consider whether to whether to impose a fine but for instance the statute that we're just looking at right now it sets it sets a fine of $100 but also states that the judge had discretion to impose OS no fine whatsoever cases resolve in a number of different ways some cases even after a summons is issued um look considering what is our goal ultimately not to collect money not to collect Revenue but for compliance right exactly right so um hopefully just the look the threat that somebody could be could be charged that some that they're subject to a penalty ultimately that's what we if um if they're not complying just because they're through you know because they're doing the right thing um at least they have that to to consider people are going to fight a matter more so um or if if people do decide to fight it it's not really they're not going to be discouraged as much by the fine they're going to be discouraged by the fact that they have to go retain an attorney they're going to be discouraged by the fact that they have to spend their time going to court those act as much as deterrence as as any other Factor including including the penalties so we can we can talk about the penalty but my assessment is whatever the whatever stated within the code ultimately and and it may be appropriate to update the the penalties certain penalties but I don't think it's going to have any type of real impact on on compliance it should be whether there's a second third offense too built into it that that would you know if I I I think some of these Provisions do do include that if it's for if it's for if it's uh if it's a second defense as far as how the the sentence is supposed to um supposed to be imposed and perhaps one of the greater say penalty Provisions in here is ongoing offenses it gives the opportunity that each day that somebody's in violation of the of the ordinance U they consider each day to be an additional violation of the ordinance so the penalty can pile up yeah um so that's now that can be that can be a deterrent Factor approve how many days you know yeah well and notified isn't it usually once you're notified yes so it it would act based off the data um the data in in a couple different ways one um look if if when these matters are are a summons is is initially issued that happens after there's some type of investigation done by one of our Enforcement Officers so typically what would happen is an enforcement officer may go out there and say on um on July 1st I you know you were notified that you needed to have a Mercantile license it's now August 1st you haven't provide you haven't gotten a Mercantile license so there's evidence you know they they could be by the time this goes to court that they still haven't gotten a mertile license it would be considered an ongoing violation for that for that period of time um it's not the period of time whether they came in and cut a lawn and that that would be a violation right so you couldn't really charge them with every day from the time they notifi from the city perspec down to as far as look if there's observations so what's going to happen is this yeah this you have to prove your case so they're going to come in and they're going to say prove your case if we if keep in mind the flip side of the coin is if matters are litigated then it means more Court time it means um that more Court times means the you know more Court time the judge the prosecutor it means our code enforcement officers are going to be sitting in court as potential Witnesses on matters so let me let me jump in here um so what we try to do and and this has been not just now but you know code enforcement zoning and Construction office when we find a violation our purpose is not to find and collect a fee we're not looking to those penalties are not a fee generator in any form or fashion we want to get compliance from whoever's doing the thing so you know earlier this year coach for was like oh man I could go down to court and figure out and talk to the prosecutor on how to prosecute this because they hadn't you know in the last like two years they hadn't really taken somebody to court because they've always tried to work with their residents and Property Owners to gain compliance and because that's that's the ultimate goal summonses that's the Avenue of Last Resort it is and anyway obviously we've do some summonses but typically by the time they get the court scheduled you know they're usually getting compliance so I I think we have a pretty good resident base that that understands that works with our code enforcement officers and Zoning officer and you know if if a violations come up or a stop work ORD is given they've come in and complied which I think that's what we want we're not you know I get a lot of people says oh you got to hit them with the fine to make I'm not we're not looking to find residents we're looking for compliance but Paul let me say this you can't always be Mr Nice Guy I and if if you find one of these things that she's been working on and you find them the word's going to spread real fast and everybody's going to get in line believe me so you can be Mr Nice Guy all that you want but it's like but trust me a lot of times they don't like when you you when uh the construction off office goes down there and and and puts that red sticker down there they get get surr they they get into compliance pretty quick yeah that's what I'm saying but I I totally agree you know sometimes but you know write them up if you could definitely email me this list so I can code enforcement's going to have some work next I don't think anybody I don't I hope I I don't I hope I don't me to speak for everybody on the commit I don't think the purpose of this committee is to try to figure out a way to get penalties out of people we want to make sure that it's fair and Equitable for everybody and those people that aren't paying yeah need to pay but we also want to make sure that the penalties and and I think it is good to look at the penalty because you want to make sure that the penalties are stiff enough to make you know that's that's the stick that we have is okay you're not going to comply well and and we do do that continuing you know we do write those violations up you know this is you know you're getting a violation today but every day that this is still not abated it is another fine so we they write those summonses in that way so that it is you know if it's $500 today they do it they write them up that way and that gets that's how they get their attention to get compliance I don't think they do it too often Paul on sorry and Paul now we're now we're back to not saying that we have to do it again and again but there's that's now we're back to the reason I I brought this issue up and that is the value of P fines and penalties m in terms of compliance number one and number two some lawyer needs to look at these documents to make sure that the 1997 structure of fines is still appropriate or does it need to be changed is it helping enforcement and it is frankly nobody in the city has looked at that since 1997 it's been there and it's been there so uh the recommendation I would like the committee to consider is that that that uh basically this the code book needs to be scrubbed with respect to fines and penalties to make sure that they're current and effective Dennis can I just add one thing which is that if you're looking at that um so that you are not sharing a meeting here on the same subject in 20 years and there's a way to build indices into those fines so that it just indexes with inflation over time so we have um discussed that in the past job and and we've one of the goals with do doing this with the other fees that we discussed is that there will be a 2-year analysis so every two years we've been behind on that there's not been a a rigor and sort of a business acument associated with that in in previous administrations and our goal is to in include that as part of the routine so that there will be sort of a calendar that says every July you know look at the fees associated with this because you know you understand that the way it rolls out we have to put an order together revision publicize it and then provide due notice to everyone so Paul and I have talked about that which is one of the reasons why we're trying to get this up and running so that there's plenty of notification for 2025 but that it's on a calendar um and there are other things in the city that are now on a calendar like that to take a look at so yes you're absolutely right that you know some of these things have not have sort of lay a f for a long period of time I think that's great and I think that ongoing analysis is great and might be better as a starting position to say it's going up with inflation we're going to do the analysis to make sure that it's going up with inflation is still good so you don't have to go deal with the legislation every two years so just a just a quick look on on Google says that the maximum fine for an ordinance can be $2,000 I mean our says $1250 so it looks as though if that is something that could be explored as far as in increasing that amount so it's it's consistent with the logic of the committee's mission to look at to look at everything connected with Revenue uh its value and enforcement and its currency anything to compliance is a plus but just by the St we haven't need you know that penalty is working because we haven't had to go to court to make sure it's enforced so you know the penalty that's there is the stick because they didn't want to pay and and just go to the point of yeah what happens when you you know zoning violation somebody starts doing work on their house we send them a zoning violation oh you didn't get a site plan to do something everybody says I'll just send them a find and that'll do it what happens is you send them in the court you get in front of the misell judge and then the applicant says oh here I'm going to submit my site plan application and then the judge says all right we'll give you a month to submit your site plan application they submit the site plan application and then the judge dismisses the case so that's typically what will happen in in these types of cases judge will have to work with us that's but but then it goes and and and but that's what I'm saying you know it's not a matter of just leveling the FES sometimes you don't level the fines because the judge dismisses the case because we've gotten compliance and that's just going how about the case on Stockton Avenue now that that went to they appealed that and it went to court so now are they just going to let them off the hook are you talking about local huh are you talking about local no five stock in place I anyway let me tell you a story Paul don't make any jokes when uh when I was a teacher I was monitoring a test a standard a test I was giving to a class of students and just for fun I said I just saw somebody cheating on this test now put on the top of your paper that you were cheating and I'll let you go seven kids put that on their paper and I appreciate you letting me go no I'm sorry and the point of that story is if the city announced just as a hypothetical if the city announced that we are increasing the fines yeah for anything let's say anything and we're increasing fines and there will be increased enforcement along with it that's a shot across the bow of anybody who's currently not following the rules and and that that has a great deal of value so in that respect we're going we'd like you to look how about if you put put their names in the in the newspaper too no just say look we're increasing if you're get compliant by next week we won't find you those yeah those folks uh let's see what do we got now I think we've covered everything except business Improvement districts now what you had two other you had the charter bus fee Wells that was just a summary of what we had agreed to last week last month so just want give a brief update was was that already submitted then uh it will be submitted when when we all just pass well because the only reason I I bring it up when I read it and I know you like the world the word stale but I don't know there's a sentence in there it says while council is in process to examine more fees to regular reust for inflation these newly adopted fees remain stale and unjustified I I just I just thought that might that wording of that might be adjusted a little bit you think that's a little harsh yeah you know something like these newly adopted fees remain at prior levels and don't appear to be set to cover operational costs or something and I'd like to give an update to that because that is in fact not completely accurate we we met with mac and we met with the Chamber of Commerce after the last meeting and we discussed the change in workflow in the process process for the registration of charter buses coming into the city which will now be under the uh primary umbrella of Mac um and just I'll try and make this brief previously as you were aware this was under the chamber um they went to a paper process when they came off of the the registration system we are going back to an online platform that Mac will be responsible for they've already launched it um as of August 6th the 15th it'll go live they are taking all of the paper registrations that the chamber has collected for all current buses that are registered to come in over the next couple of months and loading them into the system what we discussed with mac and with the chamber is there's a change in workflow there's a change in work effort there's a cost that U Mac will now incur for the subscription fee so we're giving them a couple of months to settle all of that out we've also identified that if a bus comes in and doesn't have a permit we've they're going they have put a process in place that they can immediately scan a QR code at welcome center and then going to pick up their permit at Mac before they Venture on their way so it from the conclusion of that meeting it was it's a very tight communication plan that's been established what we really need to have them shake out is the exact costs because these costs are going to be changing the chambers there's a decrease in Personnel expenses associated with a work effort that was manual and now there's an online program and we need to figure that out sometime around November is when we agreed we'd sit down with them and take a look at it I want to footnote something else from the feedback that they gave us we are one of only two municipalities that charge for charter buses and they were opposed to any suggestion that they we needed to increase those they have found through their efforts and they are the marketing arm for these and going out to trade shows that they have heard from a lot of vendors bus vendors and others that they would no longer want to come here if they saw a continued increase in charter bus permits and so in all fairness to them this is their business and what we just need to make sure is they're comfortable that they're covering the expenses through this effort so I would say making the recommendation is fine I just want you to that the parties to know that the chamber and Mac are both comfortable with the arrangement that's been made and we're allowing them to come back in November and to give us the feedback on how the expenses fall and does that make sense and at this and at this point there's no direct cost to the city to operate this program so it's not it's not this is not a this is not a revenue source for the city nor a revenue we don't incur any costs for this process so you know it it's really this is something that that they're Mac Mac and the Chamber are providing a service for the city Paul's saying is is really not the issue that Russ is Raising Russ is Raising simply a reference in this document to the fact that when the city council adopted a resolution setting fees those fees were virtually the same as they were in 2009 that's what the word stale means uh yeah but that has an but that has an implication yeah they're the same let me finish the and the other point we had discussed at this meeting was that there was no clear calculus by which the fees that were adopted in 2009 and read adopted in 2024 there was no calculus for what that dollar represented the issue with that we raised as the mrack is you can't be charging a fee plugging a number from somebody's that somebody's notebook without explaining what the fee is is buying and when when when Mac and we're not we're not involved in anything that you were talking about that discussion is with the city and with the mac and the and the bus people this recommendation simply says that when you set the bus fee set it on on a known calculus for how much your cost you're covering by the that's what I'm sorry if I didn't make that point clear enough that's exactly what they will be doing they will be calculating their personnel cost the cost for the subscription for this new platform and the work effort and and when they come back in November they're going to say this is we know the chamber shared with us their financials now will have a new set and we will sit and look at that and and have the discussion with them are you comfortable with how the money is flowing and that you're covering your expenses associated can can sorry I'm just going to inter this is really helpful information um I'm curious about obviously so many of the charter buses that come in are destined for Mac destinations but there are a number that come in for other tourism activities um and some of that is growing so I'm curious about how that would be organized right now we organize with the chamber yeah Mac just because Mac is hosting it doesn't mean that they're just they're not doing just a tour permits for Mac events they're doing tour the bus permits for All Buses coming into the city so and they're tracking that so it's not even the wedding yes are just acting as the conduit for All Buses coming in they're hosting the program they're hosting the program great that's great just situationally you know because the Welcome Center is the Hub of Transportation um I guess that question around they they they're going to be able to use a QR code they'll still be a so what Mac has done is if a they won't have to go to the Emin physic State let me no so they have to register and before they if they came in without having registered prior and did not go through the process that they should they will be able to go online register but they will have to go pick up their their um permit to put into the window of the bus before that they could go on Mac has said it happens all the time the buses come through there um all the time and it should be an exception and the reason why they felt that it should be done that way and again this is their their Core Business is because and chamber felt the same was because they don't want to have them continuing with you know um not complying and so this was a way to force the companies to make sure that they were registering in advance they the big tour buses are they going to bring them into Mac or how are they going to work so some so right now they some of them come into the Welcome Center and some of them come into Mac based on the destination um you know if they're already registered and have their paperwork some of them go right to the hotels right so so they're just the they're just the primary hosting of the platform for All Buses coming in yeah I I don't want to take us off course but just logistically I think they're probably going to find that it'll be helpful for them to have a presence at the Welcome Center and not be sending all of the buses over we can't really speak to that so I mean you know that they may find Cindy that that is a better effective use but this happens so infrequently it may not be conducive for Mac to do that so we we really have to be allow them over the course of the next couple of months to sort of work through and understand what this is where's the wedding bus Group uh from Rhode Island where do they go to register onl they register online online online so it sounds to me like recommendation 19 ought to be put on hold that's up to you put on hold until November right no I just wanted to give you an update the the the recommendation doesn't need to be put on hold we you want them to have a fee based on cost that's all whatever that fee is we're not saying accept the fee we're just saying I mean I think that's fair enough yeah all right but that's fine right which is what we're working and towards okay to do with you know okay again maybe it's TMI because MTR doesn't want to get too involved in that process we made it clear at the last meeting right that we're not part of that process we are we are encouraging them to do it but but when you do it the thing that comes out of it is a feed it's based on cost that's all I just thought it was important that I give the update to share with you that that that was the result of the meeting well then you're to blame for the meeting running too long no I don't think so I definitely am not Dennis Dennis before we get to the um to the bids one of the items that you included was the beach concession agreements yeah recom um recommendation 18 where do we stand on that give an update well we're going to make the recommend to the council at their next meeting if I could well we I get it but MRA is always wanted to make recommendations no I'm not saying to make a recommendation I just wanted to give you a followup from what you asked me to do at the last meeting okay that was all I was asked to provide a summary you can do follow me too so at the last meeting I was asked to follow up on a number of items that were discussed at this meeting regarding okay be concessions um it went from um making sure that um all of the vendors who have Beach concessions are complying with the contracts um and that U they were identified and the services that they were doing uh there was a um a couple of um hotels identified that needed to be looked at with regard to the fact that they they didn't have what people thought to have a beach concession th those details were provided in the email Ma and the following was the recommendation that um an overall more broader analysis of beaches uh and additional concessions that could be considered uh during the next bid process uh that information was sent in an email to Paul to Chris Gillan Schwarz um and to the mayor just to say this was a discussion at MTR um Chris has all of that information um he um will the bids are opening up in 2025 so all of that information will be part and parcel um some of the more uh the other discussions that we had as to whether or not um some of the uh vendors could do what they were doing we discussed um I would say in brief I don't really want to get into those discussions publicly but um all is all is good is is probably how I would surmise it and I can talk offline to any member of the committee I just don't want to get into a public discussion okay the only thing I would the only thing I would just mention is it's not included in this but it was discussion that we had um a topic of discussion last time which I thought was a good idea was look we're talking about something that's going to be based off of um we know there's certain cost as to City incurs for inspections and and other matters we had discussed the idea of a minimum bid as well and it's that's not mentioned in this I don't that might be something that's just part of that overall discussion but it's not included in here so I just wanted to bring that up in the contracts that are in effect right now there is a minimum bid and and all of the all of the fees for each of the contracts are at the minimum number okay so are we doing an assessment as far as what the minimum bid should be now keeping in mind we haven't been asked to do we have we have not been asked to do that so I would make the recommendation that you want to counsil and you could incorporate that as a suggestion that uh MTR could do that but that was not part of our that was not a part of an original task well that that is part of the recommendation though because the recommendation says that the fees should be set to cover the cost as calculated by the city's analysis of of cost Factor so the fee is the recommendation is that the fee just like the bus thing the recommendation is the fee be based on the cost that the city estimates so it's cooked into what our recommendation is okay yeah it is actually it is yeah um I going to say next oh bid bid and S uh what what we wanted to do eventually and probably this is a good time to take a two month Gap uh the next thing we wanted to look at was the the whole idea of business Improvement districts with respect to uh the original code that created them how effective are they are they covering the cost of uh city services provided to the members of the bid uh just I think last budget there was a I think I sent it to you that there was a list of general fund Appropriations which are essentially used just to make them the all better and and whether or not those kinds of calculations be put into the fee the other thing we wanted to talk about was is the concept of a business improvement district a good idea for places like Beach Drive and and to be able to provide that environment with things that the city isn't doing now or can't do now to make that a better place so I we we had asked Callie and job to take a look at that and they hav't had a chance to meet but you have any thoughts on that before you actually begin your study my pre-study questions um so just as a reminder for everyone I'm the executive director of a business improvement district in Philadelphia for the last 10 years um and by way of background about bids in general bids were created in like the late 60s early 70s in large cities in response to population decline leading to a decline in city services so think about a downtown with a lot of Office Buildings suddenly cities stopped sweeping their streets or planting whatever they were doing to make the Aesthetics better so the large commercial property owners got together and said let us tax ourselves let us issue an assessment so that we can provide these services so we can keep people in these offices and keep people coming now obviously Washington Street doesn't have that size but once that mall was created it sort of made sense there's additional amenities going on in Washington Street with the Planters and The Fountains brick raving that doesn't really have to happen elsewhere in Kate may but at the core of it the question I have when you ask about Beach Drive is do the commercial property owners want that is that something that they see that they would want to pay in and that's usually who drives the efforts to create a bid not a recomendation from Outsiders you could always bring it up but say Hey you could provide these Services if the city will authorize Your Existence if you want to collect together and put it down but it's not necessarily an external recommendation and that was yeah and that Washington Street mall was or the business improvement district there was an external recommendation the state said that a bid needed to be created after the city spent X doll improving the so I I find it hard to believe that the merchants on the beach front would be willing to do this for themselves they would have done it already that was going to be my question you know I I was didn't know that much about it I mean you know lived in Philly for a long worked in Center City so understood that you know how that especially around the ches street area but for me it was sort of didn't look like it was an external I won't say imposition but an externally created sort of um idea that it was more a Genesis that would come about from people you know businesses believing that this was going to add value to a centralized location um Beach Avenue to me or Beach Drive doesn't necessarily kind of lend itself to that because you have you have hotels and you know sort of motels and then you have restaurants and then so it's a very broad conglomerate of services that are being offered up there including city property in convention hall um you know so I didn't see you know when I was trying to understand how this would come about I I I didn't see the cohesiveness around that Washington Street has you know centrally located with several blocks just kind of made much more sense um and I also understand that there was a discussion at one point with sort of the commons across the street and and they didn't really have an interest in in yes so we had we the Mall merchants have looked into expanding the business improvement district right now it's the north side of Carpenters Lane the south side of L Lane and the malls and then the cross streets you know that are between those barriers um and there there was buyin from um the south side of Carpenters Lane but not Washington Commons because they're already getting all the same Services through their lease with cape Resorts so yeah it doesn't it doesn't make sense for those Merchants based on these statements is is there any what's the value of you doing any other additional work well I'm just curious okay okay but but I would just say you know that was sort of my Prelude to what bids du but then we go back then we got to the original premise which we can discuss and that is does the entire ordinance that creates them all and uh the the capture of resources from the mall versus the expenditure of general fund services does that need to be looked at are the things that the city's paying for uh should they be included in the in the in the mall bid um because there is a there is a bit of a crossover from expenditures that look like that come from the general fund but look like they're just for M Improvement there certainly are things that the city has paid for that are not I I can't say that they are exclusively used on the M but they are majority benefit the all but we operate on about $80,000 a year we have a minuscule budget so you know to replace the street sweeper that's three years of budget for us um you know things like that and I you know the trash cans are very expensive but they do need to be replaced as well so I think that you know we can look at it but I don't know how much you know how much room we really have what the well and also there's an intangible here that the value to the city in having in having that so I mean and you can't really put a dollar amount to that there's there's sort of the you want to have that aesthetic when people enter onto that that area for that pedestrian walkway for those blocks so while I appreciate you know wanting to look at it from the the dollars and cents there's a dollars and sense that's not really it's that that Downstream that can't be really it's intangible in my opinion so I'm not sure that you could get you can you know you might move it the needle a little bit um but I'm not sure that you're ever going to you fill that Gap that's my my any any other thoughts anybody what do you want to do with this yeah Russ recommends Let It Go I I think so too second if the businesses aren't screaming anybody else okay dead is a door nail then now you see all the work you just avoided that's all right that's fine let let let job work call Place her you still have to come to the meeting okay does anybody else have any Honestly though I'm really glad that to know about one piece of housekeeping yes um so bu monthly is housekeeping everybody bonly is one of those words that's confusing I thought you meant we were going to a twice a month schedule no why would we be going to a bimonthly schedule I I be because I want to slow down down just a little bit and and and regroup in terms of issues and and research we I I don't think we need to meet every month um and it's also difficult for folks to get here on every month even though we' were only we we've had membership not attendance problems let's say so I want to try and avoid that if I can I want to I want to be able to have long range fair warning for the meetings get it on everybody's schedule and make sure we're here by observ is that the meetings have been getting longer and so if we go to bonly I can see these becoming three-hour meetings to be able to talk about everything that we want to talk about so um I I don't maybe maybe the chairman will start banging the gble I don't know I wouldn't want to lose momentum as a as an organization I hear you and but also gives us a way to to uh to highlight the big issues that we do have a concern with keep them on the Forefront uh we we don't need to to make up stuff to talk about yep there's lots of stuff to talk about and and I think if we T tailor the meetings to a a bimonthly discussion of the big issues we're tracking and if anybody else wants to come up with a suggestion or an idea that they want on the agenda we can put that on too because there are there's stuff in the uh in the can that we've already discussed we we have uh we're approaching 20 recommendations and so far the city has acted on about six or seven of them and uh so the the next phase of mra's life might be that we need to remind the city that those recommendations were still there and uh maybe we' like some explanation about why they're not moving well that yeah I mean if the city's not interested they're not interested they we ought a prioritize the ones that we think are most important right the other thing I'd say uh and I understand your concern is that I think when you really look at it we probably have been meeting B monthly already with the cancel meetings yeah for the last I to be honest with you uh the only thing I I hope we go back to four o'clock that was my question only because the 2 o'clock is is who wants 2 be tough anybody nobody wants 2 o'cl anybody want four o' everybody four o00 better better okay all right yeah 4:00 is better all right we we'll meet every other month at 4:00 in this room you're going to have to get somebody trained on starting and stopping the meetings then because we don't always have Personnel definitely won't have Personnel at the end of the meetings but even at the start of the meetings the city hall closing at 3:30 you know you're going to have to have somebody here on your committee that's would you trained and operated to start and stop the meeting how about a 3:00 start time it' be better than two yeah three's good with me I'm not saying to adjust your time I'm just saying you'd have to have staff if you want to live stream your meetings you got to have somebody that turn it on and off then can we do 3:30 then well walk not to be hon well they they just have to kick off the um streaming right so if they did that at like 3:15 um start at 3:15 well actually she did start the meeting about 20 minutes early so that all right let's come to a decision on this she starts across the street she starts at 20 minutes early maybe do at 3:30 meeting and then she can start 3:30 is everybody okay with 3:30 yeah that works for everybody okay we just need soone will'll just have to press stop at the end the second it's the second Thursday of October and okay all right motion to adj Second Thursday of October got it okay okay I don't know