##VIDEO ID:5gPktND2F_E## e e e e e e e e e e e e we just have we just have a volume of Greater volume of applications and here we are another night no application own stands [Music] not where' you go [Music] can you sign these too I'm sorry didn't get them to you yet you need a pen I got Mike's got was a p that drink said I said the right thing okay he might need one for the med I'll just leave him this one fine here you take it and you can trade we trade your yours looks nicer make sure you get it back mine's a out of 10 mine's a I think okay all right so this is this is what's Justin's last name yes this is um said that and it went out I got I'll have it in a minute zo out there it's been I can't when the pressure's on yeah that's what happens me 5 minutes after I walk out somewhere it'll come to me and it'll be Bing yet hard harder am so who's not who's not here got 10 people um oh John yeah John said he was coming known oh okay that's go good welcome to fun we start D can chipping if he gets here okay guys the um planning board meeting is now in session and compliance with the open public meetings Act of 1975 notice this meeting has been provided should any member this board have reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they shall so State at this time hearing none we will start with the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the rep for stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all just in time Dennis okay um it's right at your spot we have a resolution to approve Jason and C I'm sorry roll roll call okay Mr bizer yes Mr Jones yes Mr rigs here Mr Crowley here Mr gorgone yes mayor mullik here council member jger here Mrs Reed Mr lenol here Mr pusis here Mr krippin here thank you okay now now we have the resolution 10- 22- 2024 Jason and CA Cinda CL 501 Hugh Street block 1049 lot 10.01 a motion for approval so move second motion by Mr Jones seconded by Mr lenol is that correct yes okay thank you Mr gorgone abstain mayor mullik yes council member Jagger yes Mr C Al yes Mr lenol yes Mr rigs yes Mr puses yes Mr Jones yes Mr Biz I'm sorry Mr B sorry about that said yes yes no okay now we're on to the discussion the recommended changes to the master plan zoning map and land use element and I'm sure everybody got the well we had it in the package B got minute minutes God what am I doing all right minutes of August 20 minutes of August 27th I was just looking at it D motion to approve the minutes so approve minutes approve it second Mr Jones motions Mr pus is second Mr gargon abstained Mayor mullik yes council member Jagger yes Mr Crowley yes Mr lenhome yes Mr rigs yes Mr pusis yes Mr um sorry uh Mr Jones yes Mr bazer yes thank you anybody want to tell me what we're doing next motion yeah that would that would not be coming from you now we have six hours left before we do that all right we're doing recommending changes to the master plan development regulation zoning map and land use element and I'm sure everybody got the um colorcoded comments from Craig so Craig I'll s to let you lead the charge on this okay um so I prepared a memorandum dated October 15th uh 2024 um and I took another bite of the apple with all of our recommended changes that were uh as recommended as part of the last master plan reexamination um so the last at the last last time we talked about this I gave you an update we had taken a a serious bite of the apple and and knocked out quite a few of those recommendations so um here's my next stab at recom recommendations to you um so and I'll just go through that memorandum um so item on page two of six uh the first recommendation was to reexamine and revise the definitions in the zoning code um so I did look at those um when I look at that new definitions or updating definitions I Look to similar municipalities that have you know definitions I look at those I also look to there is a um a document or a book called the new illustrated book of development definitions it's um authored by two uh Ruckers professors that are uh expert in planning um so they and those are often used in a lot of other towns also so um so the first definition that I tackled was building you can see our existing definition of building is pretty uh simplistic um and I took the definition that was from uh that illustrated book of De development definitions for building and recommended that the building be redefined as any structure having a roof supported by columns or walls and intended for the shelter housing or incl osure of any individual animal processed equipment Goods or materials of any kind everybody okay with that yeah stop me if stop me if you don't like any of these or you need additional comment thank goodness we got through one okay we done a building so accessory use or building is how um the term is defined in in code existing um I thought that that should be broken up into three separate parts accessory building definition a subordinate structure on the same lot as the principal or main building or use accessory structure a structure detached from the principal building located on the same lot and customarily incidental and subordinate to the principal building or use and then finally accessory use a use of land or of a building or portion thereof customarily incidental and subordinate to the principal use of the land or building and located on the same lot with principal use I have a question there okay what is the fundamental difference between accessory building and structure based on these definitions okay um so accessory building has a roof supported by walls and your columns accessory structure could be a wall a flag pole or something ornamental um but still considered a structure a fire pit fire pit okay we deal with that that's why so yeah okay something that's adjacent to the the accessory building or or a building okay so it's it's not a building it's something else on the property right okay right I think a shed is an accessory building yes that would be a bu because it has a roof on it okay okay y I think there is a difference just a question the accessory building uh doesn't include the definition of walls or roofs oh it does building building contains that oh the building definition is the building attached to that okay you don't want to say it in that definition it's a bu what's a wall what's a roof all right okay so those are okay page three um so we we tackle floor area floor area ratio and habitable area okay and you can see the existing definitions are above um so I made recommendations to uh further Define floor area so I added the first sentence the sum of the gross horizontal areas of floors of a building were structure measured from the interior face of exterior walls um both myself and the and the zoning officer get all kinds of questions with regards to how is this measured so I we believe that this should be in the in the actual definition so that it gives applicants and potential developers you know that information right up front and that's not is that's not moscow's language that's your own language um that was I think a blend of mine and mosit you know so another question on that even though we have storage in that definition now screen I mean if you've got if you've got an attic where you have storage that's not considered part of the floor are ratio right floor area is different than habitable floor area so the the big okay the Big Driver of the questions with regards to this section I think is habitable floor area because habitable floor area is what the floor area ratio is based off of okay okay so when we're if you're calculating floor area for say a commercial establishment to determine how many square feet they have to determine their parking count it really doesn't matter whether it's Clos of space or because it's CU under those terms it's gross floor area Craig can ask you a question Craig I'm confused by that okay let's go ahead Rich go ahead when you said when you measure from the interior face of the exterior wall right yep so if the building is 36 feet long it's really not 36 feet long it's the inside of the exterior wall right inside you're measuring inside to inside that's what you're saying measure from the inside of this wall to the all right so interior measurements these are interior measure okay from the exterior and that makes sense yeah all right I understand now but that's I want to make sure that's what you meant okay that's what I thought it said well it did but I've never it does say that yeah okay Craig oh my goodness I have been talking loud but not I can hear you sorry Craig okay one thing I don't understand about FL area ratio is that I thought one of the primary purposes of Flur ratio was to create a ratio between the structure that's on the lot and the size of the lot correct so as to have a certain degree of massing and if that's the purpose of it I don't understand why anything is excluded either habitable non-habitable walls stairs elevators if it's the massing of the building the amount of habitable Seas has virtually nothing to do with the mass of the building so that if you have a building that has I don't know 5,000 squ feet of storage area in it its mass is the same as if it were 5,000 sare feet of Hab habitable space so either it's a massing regulation or it's a density regulation but I don't so I've that never made sense to me so we're going to so to answer your question I've actually recommended the habitable floor area which is the driver of the floor area ratio I added I added uh two sentences to that definition to the existing definition the total floor area of all habitable area in a dwelling unit habitable floor area shall mean dwelling space exclusive of attached garages porches sellers or any other enclosure not capable of being used as part of the main dwelling area that is always that those exceptions have always existed I didn't make I didn't recommend a change to that you know that's a policy decision if someone wants if you guys want to do that then that that's a recommendation you can make but I I don't and then I add it on interior walls stairwells elevator shafts closets Utility Equipment rooms shall not be excluded from the area calculation right pick closets let's say they have nine 600 squ foot closets in a house that increases the mass of the building no it says it's I say I'm not excluding not not ex I'm purposely not I'm perfectly oh you're changing that rule I'm perfectly I don't know that we're changing it we've always been we've always been including it in floor area ratio but now it's explicit in our definition but I thought we took stairs we've had St were out we always counted them what you may have is a vaulted ceiling the last stairwell that has open space above we never count that floor but we count the stairs on every other floor all right how about how about storage areas we're counting areas that are marked storage that's in the in the um cuz they could be they could be habitable in the floor area words storage area is not foot correct if you got if you got an attic that's not habit you have a 600 you don't to count that we had that we had that we had that one on where they had that big storage area in front of it Mar storage so this is this is why we're adding these these clarifications to this great very habitable go ahead no look the guy behind me proposed to do an attic that was 3,000 square F feet if you may recall well I I have an attic in my house and I wouldn't be able to live without it and it's not it's not habitable floor space it is it is part of the building and you start telling people they can't have attics you're not talking the can of addicts it's just that it does count in the massing of the building not that's not for a habitable living space I don't make the policies I'm just pointing out that if you exclude that that is part of the massing of a building that space well then it becomes a question is that really an addict or is that an additional floor if it's a 3,000 ft Attic So there there there you've got the definition of attic that you've got to look at so it doesn't really if you look at it you can make when you yeah it's a case by case basis I I guess really you can make all the rules you want somebody's going to try and subvert them yeah exactly they're going to try to say oh it's not a floor it's an attic so well I know mine's an and I couldn't live without it how do you access it interior store interior stairway I walk up the stairs doesn't the habitable area address it in regards to minimum Florida ceiling height of 6 and2 yes that's so the combination of those two is how we've been considering and calculating because you'll get that attic space that has those the ceilings right and then the Architects will measure the portion of the room that has a 6 foot 6 and 1/2t high floor to ceiling rate and then they will calculate that space as habitable area the rest the stuff that is lower than 6 and half does not count but if it's 8 ft and it's not intended primarily for human occupancy it doesn't count as habitable right then then you get into that and that's what I have underlined in my notes is I don't know what that that intended primarily for human occupancy this isn't theoretical like I'm not trying to torture everybody I'm telling you I just got a question last week someone has a detach garage did they call you too Craig what yes they have a detached garage they have space above it and and I and I had I had the secretary forward the email from our zoning official and this is this piggy back onto this discussion is that he he says there's he's hoping that there's a couple of issues we can address in definitions detach garages and out buildings are not permitted to have living accommodations I often get in quotes well there is no Plumbing it's not habitable to me it should mean no finished area the definition for living living accommodations is and then he gave us our existing definition of living accommodations all read living accommodations kitchens bathing facilities sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or any other improvements intended to support human habitation and He suggests that kitchens bathing facilities sleeping quarters toilets and toilet facilities or any other improvements intended to support human habitation and he adds including sheetrock finish trim flooring Etc and then the he talks about other issue is unfinished space in structures labeled as attic or unfinished area usually in structures that are at the limit of floor area ratio um and he asked for some controls on that and he says it may be be a bit extreme but it could be something like this be considered by the board be added to the definition of f or habitable floor area including any enclosed floor SP for floor space capable of being used as part of the dwelling area by means of minor modifications and any attic space which has a Stairway as a means of access and egress with a ceiling height at or above F feet and that's what I have so I have this interior staircase that goes up my attic and I can it's probably 5 foot so in the middle of it yeah I mean I I I'm I'm not trying to increase floor area I I just think that we're trying to Define it so that right he can we he can review plans and and hang his hat on the definition and I need flooring in my act so I can store stuff on well right well right now it's 6 and 1/2 ft so he's I mean the I'm not I didn't make the suggestion then you go to four feet but isn't it like Bill for just for your house you you have an A-frame and you want to use that space it'd be silly not to so but just I have interior stairway with a door there that locks off that I get access to it doesn't mean it's I'm trying to sneak something in I need it you have storage space up there yeah well rich rich touched on the the the way that the floor area ratio control came about was it was a meant and it's stated right in the master plan it was meant to control the massing of structures so when you get this huge attic spaces and stuff the structure from the street looks massive 6 and a half ft it's not it's so how huge is it going to be M I'm just pointing out the we've had some worst case scenarios yeah I mean if it's massing then the fact that it's a huge attic space doesn't mean that it's not massive no it could have a 12 pitch roof and the knee walls at 6 and 1/2 foot that's a lot of space yeah mhm so only from 6 and 1/2 foot above is habitable space so if you have a room according to our according to our current definitions yes and I'm and I'm not making a I'm not recommended a change a change to that the zoning officer suggested something a little more more stringent um but I'm trying to clarify the definition so that you can add including sheetrock finish trim that sort of thing that that's where you start where it starts taking the form of of living space right yes what what does it you got ra for the attic like four four foot attic versus six what does that imply if it's so so most of the time when that calculation comes into effect is you have the roof right pitch um they're finishing inside but closer to the walls the roof pitch dictates the fact that you can't get six and a half ft until you move into the center and then you have that Center area that's counting to a floor area MH um so they're not and if you uh if you go to the trouble of putting sheetrock and flooring and trim in that space you're not intending it to store your Christmas decorations flooring you are you're going to flooring you are yeah well no sheetrock what he says is Sheetrock flooring finishing trim Etc but the flooring is necessary to have storage but the point is if you if you make it look like a room it's going to be a room that's what I just said if you if you keep one of those if you keep the sheetrock finish trim that part of it in there that that's that's different but the flooring is something you have to have well of course if you're going to use it you have to have flooring yeah right but I think he's referring to I'm assuming OS you know like a a plywood or whatever yeah not finished flooring that's not flooring yeah paneling yeah you can have insulated paneling MH well one thing with sheetrock too is I don't know you know some people use it as fire um blocking you know it's fire rated I mean you have an addict that's a you're in a condor twin or it's yeah yes and even for storage if you have drywall up you're getting a lot less dust and everything from insulation and all that I mean I get what he's trying to do get no no trim no you know finishes I would say but I think there's probably a lot of people that like to put drywall in their attic that aren't that are simply trying to use it for storage we have a real life version of that like it won't come to this board right that no it's coming to the zoning board yeah I mean they have attached garage they built a new house detached garage it's said attic on the plans and now it's an office well there's no running water there's no bathing there's no baths not yet it's not well but even if it stayed that way it's adding it's essentially adding a bedroom and living space to the property so I mean but what is that I mean it's not well that's the zoning is going to decide it it's not but let's it's not heated it's not cooled right it's above a garage there's no running water it has electricity but has electricity but so does the garage so does an attic so does an attic yeah right so you know it's one of those things where you can you can see the gray area that exists in these definitions that the the zoning official has a hard time making determinations well that's that's when he sends them to the zoning board well but that's um it's not that easy because then it's already built typically yeah that creates Varian there was one in Village Green where they made made them take it out they went to The Zing board they didn't approve it and they had they had in order to sell the property they had to take all that sheet lock and everything was up there at so I just I think you should give a lot of consideration to zoning officers views on this because he's running into the real world and the old version of heating and cooling or having running water and stuff it's it's so viable to get an extra bedroom or you know in the properties now that hot water and heating and stuff is just not may I offer a suggestion um and one of the things I wanted to talk to the board about is we're getting towards the end of the year and you can't introduce ordinances and have them pass um this late in this this late in the year so I don't know that this is a rush to get this in front of the governing body so maybe for these four definitions and living accommodations I'll take a harder look at and and bounce it off of the zoning officer and we'll put together a more comprehensive attack at this and bring these back and bring these four back because I think these are the four ones that are creating the most controversy and discussion does that work that works yeah okay that makes sense just say again what four Craig if you want to read out loud which ones you're talking about so floor area habitable floor area floor area ratio habitable area for the four on the bottom of page 3 16 and the zoning official also recommended definitions for living accommodations and he also made some other recommendations in there that I can try and pull together and I didn't get these until after I wrote my memo so so let's we so let's we we really want to get these right so let's we'll take a second look at that yeah can I ask one question be before we move on about the floor area U that language says when used for business or commercial activities the term floor area shall include customer showcase storage and sales facility what elements of the of that business operation are not included in that definition okay right at the top top of Page Three okay when used for business or commercial activities the term floor area shall include customer showcase storage and sales facilities what what's your question my question is uh let's say the commercial area is a restaurant it where's kitchen fit into that so the main purpose of floor area in this definition is to establish it's driven by the parking calculations the only time they're you're asked to calculate floor area for a commercial building is for parking purposes and it's gross floor area so this is is telling you how to calculate that and what to include well one of the parking requirements is employee parking which would be kitchen staff in a restaurant true but the parking calculation is one space per 200 gross floor gross square feet of floor area or four seats in a restaurant right the restaurant space doesn't really drive it okay I'm still retail space is they calculate the total G grow floor area and then it's 1 for 200 and that's how if we're calculating a floor of a space and it's a commercial space and we we by this suggested language we put four elements of the commercial operation into the space that means we're excluding is that all we all the commercial uh operation includes or are there other things that are not being included in that I don't understand the question I'm not understanding the question you I'm not following you the answer is no there's that means there's no other aspect of that commercial operation that's using that floor that's going to get included in the floor calculation I think you're including so everything that's part of a restaurant calculated thinking thinking to ret well I I can see I can see if I was a retail store those four things apply it doesn't apply to a restaurant and employees restaurant the restaurant calculation the restaurant calculation is based on your number of seats so you're never going to calculate the gross floor area changing floor area definition and we're still not including that in the definition but this this isn't the this isn't the parking SE I I didn't say it was I'm just talking about relates to the parking it relates to the parking I'm only talking about the content of the definition of floor area but isn't a restaurant the parking based on number of seats and number of employees not by square footage other commercial like a a retail space you know clothing store whatever then it's that's different they don't have a kitchen or anything like that and it would be based on square footage so that would be the difference there maybe feel better if you would save for for commercial operations other than restaurants I think if we're going to continue the the conversation and take a you know a deeper dive at it I think we can shove the conversation on that and then tackle some more of these definitions I can hear you all right that's part of the shell discussion all right yep on the sh on the Shelf all right okay so we're gonna kind of table those four and we're moving on to page 4 16 rich is going to like this one because our our definitions of hotel and motel were quite Antiquated um they never really made sense and they're based on the number of units and it just so um I took these out of the illustrated book of development definitions uh I recommended that the definition of Hotel be defined as a facility offering transient lodging accommodations to the general public and providing additional services such as restaurants meeting rooms and entertainment and recreational facilities and then Motel an establishment providing sleeping accommodations with the majority of all rooms having direct access to the outside without necessity of passing through the main lobby of a building so motels are were motor hotels that you know that's how that name came about um those are primarily access you pull up in front of them and you access your room from outside you don't have to go through a Lobby we have you know those those types of motels exist in K May hotels are more of your your standard go through the lobby check in and and they have the other accommodations with them okay so no uh minimums on how many rooms or how many individuals can stay there no it never made sense um there are there are motels with more than 20 units and and the hotels there's there's hotels that have less than 20 units right so of course the the units count never made sense to me the whole time I've been here so um we those definitions were just never made sense so the b&bs haven't been considered hotels no they're they're their own use they're a separate use yes right yeah whole separate thing but the hotel could be a a a a 10un hotel correct under the new definition correct okay and the hotels and motels are they're more regulated by the individual Zone that they're in you have to have a certain number of square foot lot area per unit that's how the units are regulated so I'm not I'm not not playing with that I'm not messing with that right so I'm not making it less restrictive or more restrictive I'm just cleaning up the definition yeah that's good I like it I don't know if that I just I'm uncomfortable with the definition of a motel I really all Rooms Direct access from the outside it just majority majority majority it's like it's like um yeah next to next to the Ocean Club to me that's yeah that Motel there there several of them on oh The Jetty that matter that matter the coach is it the jetty all I know is when I was when you're when you're doing appraisal you really don't want to have a have you'd rather have a h a motel that has access from the inside than from direct access from the street you really mean that's we're going to get more and more of well then it's a hotel well I yeah I know but they but they never call them a hotel right is it apprais you can call it what you want you don't have to follow these regul all right okay I don't want yeah this is land use let's move on let's move on the consideration of of the hotel is important in relation to what happens a couple pages from now because the last time I thought about this issue has to do with the lodging houses Workforce housing because this definition of Hotel the one that exists now doesn't have a transient element to it it just as a building arranged and used for Sheltering sleeping or feeding for compensation 20 or more individuals so if you have just employees living there or whomever for six months or a year at a time there's really no difference between a hotel and an apartment complex in this definition okay had no transient element so uh and the the alcot is kind of a example of that which is down the street from me which was a hotel and now is something that I don't think is a hotel so if you change this definition to hotel to requiring a facility offering transient lodging accommodations to the general public that's what a hotel is okay not that not the current definition but if you change that then things that are pseudo apartment buildings that you know uh just pick any one of the units that have multiple multiple units in it that's not a condo and you rent that out to employees or or whatever um that is not a hotel and so that is not so they're they're masquerading as hotels I'm not accusing anyone of anything I'm just saying that that's the big difference in that yeah so definitely to consider that in the in relation to your whatever's a few pages from now where it talks about um housing housing Workforce housing would that example be a CH be a change of of use like if the the elod which was a hotel and now you want to call it an apartment or or our lodging area but it's um but we're going to have to address employee employee housing because that's just the change of use of the of that structure I mean it's a lot of things I don't want to you know judge it but it's a CH it's a change of use it's a if something that's a nonconforming use that is in different use than was there before right right but it's like it's like a hotel or a motel that now decides to con become condos and and each of the unit is individually owned condo tail that's a that's a change that's a form of ownership that's not a zoning that's a what it's it's an owners condel is an ownership condo is a former ownership if if you condo a hotel it's not a hotel anymore because it's not transi right now you may make it a cond hotel but that's still not just like transient like a hotel is a place where you know you you get off your horse you go in you get a room for the night that's kind of like that's what a hotel is I didn't realize that is transient the key word does that need to F does have to be have to follow down into Motel also yeah that's what I was going to say yeah I think so instead of sleeping accom just provide trans providing transient lodging accommodations with the majority of all rooms yeah well that's that's the traditional definition of hotel and motel is that it's a transient nature okay so Craig the first five words of hotel and motel should be the same thing that's that's what I was suggesting okay so we'll change that to okay and it may be a good thing to have these housing and I'm not casting experss or anything I'm just saying that that that change matters for those things getting more and more of those I have a question in regards to Hotel um and it's a question I don't I don't know what the answer is but there's I can think of an example in K may but there's I think it'll probably be something more in the future is um frankly less Services um you know maybe no restaurants no gymnasium or anything like that um and maybe even no Lobby you know just internet checkin here's the code to your room open your room up and have fun you know I mean so that's a trend in hotels kind of like an Airbnb model of hotels does this fit within that definition and I I don't know seems to I'm really just I'm really presenting a problem not not a solution fall into the defition a motel Motel okay or maybe just take out and see say and May and may provide additional service yeah often providing or something like that no not necessarily build uh it doesn't fit the definition of Motel because this says direct access from the room to the outside that's true U that's true I mean that I'm really presenting more of a future problem than a today problem but I think it is going in that direction but it's a yeah it's a good thought because why make changes if five years from now they're going to be Antiquated with a you know a new thing that's coming in what would you call what local is that the name of the place local yeah yeah that's what would you call that it's a that's the question on the table it's that kind of concept yeah yeah it's there's no no Lobby there's there's no Lobby is it a hotel what is it it's a hotel I would say it's a hotel well then see if it's a hotel then we really have to change the defition hotel there is but I don't think there but there's no one checking people in or anything but it's individual rules as opposed to a large whole house but it says having direct access to the outside of the building though that does not I I stayed in a hotel in Florida and that's exactly how it was I never saw anyone never talked to anyone right on my phone paid for it checked in my flight was delayed so I had to get something real quick went in literally they build my credit card and off I went so I mean it's here yeah right yeah you have to look at the definition as it's written Hotel it there's two elements to it and they're they're both required in the definition so we're going to change that we're not taking the word and often provided you're going to change that often provide and and put often provided or maybe accessory uses instead but we're going to make it so that you don't need two things that's all okay yeah make it optional yeah so I'm going to say to the general public and may provide additional services such as restaurants so maybe we're going to need another classification for the U self served that sounds the local problems or whatever you wouldn't you would from here there's a vending machine in the lobby the majority of the rooms have direct access to the outside hey Craig like local doesn't have direct access to the outside of the building you're going in that part difference a motel that's direct access to the outside local the local is you don't have direct access to the outside you go in the front it would be considered a hotel then why isn't that a hotel hotel it would be a hotel and it's a hotel be a hotel hotel yeah once we change that the motel is a motor that's what it was called a hotel right your car parked in front of your room was the motel Motel it was Motor hotel is how the rid the word Orin is that the the sort of the do-it-yourself accommodations are a hotel oh it could be a motel go through a Lobby then it's depends on whether you go from the outside or you go through a Lobby we better have the same regulation so I I think these two definitions should match except one you access through a Lobby and one you access from outside right and whether you do so with people there or no people there or other services provide does it matter does it matter you go through a Lobby or you go from the outside put that transient thing Craig right Craig what's The Beach Shack do we need a where's the definition for botel and condo the be the beach mot botel condotel condotel is a form of ownership it's it it's but it's a facility by its by its structure is open to the transit Market accommodations just like the other two things are you if you buy a a a unit in a condo you're limited to personal use no you're not well you are at the LA yet you absolutely are not at the At The Beach Shack or at or at Sandpiper but but it's available to the transit accommodation Market it's also it's also available for owner to stay there as long as they want are you sure absolutely sure and the people couple of them people live there I'm absolutely sure Denis all right okay I mean it was it was a it was a it was a motel to begin with right then they condo it out right it just got a different name the use technically didn't change and the house markets the unit for Transit accommodations or or for use by the owners but the house markets it for Transient Accommodations that's my point it's it's no different from yeah in that respect it's no different from a hotel or a motel to happen it's a it's it's a trans accommodation place maybe by definition but not but not in practice okay I'm I'm just telling you what's happening Dennis yeah I I understand that I understand what you're saying okay am I making any other changes to hotel or motel or do we want to put these in the basket to reconsider I don't think that's necessary one change okay all right it's one unit it's one room am I moving forward consensus yes okay yeah so hotel and motel are done um on uh outbuilding at the bottom of page 46 um so out other out building is is a term defined um for dwelling accessory uses so we have controls for sheds we have controls for detached garages and then those that don't fit in that basket have a separate set of controls and they're considered other out buildings however that term is not defined anywhere in our ordinance so I uh recommended that we Define that and that be called a separate accessory building or structure not physically connected to the principal building I think that one's pretty simple looks good okay now we don't have any definitions for business service business retail sales and services excuse me um so I recommended defining those um starting at the bottom of page four Services uh establishments primarily engaged in providing assistance as opposed to products to individuals business industry government and other Enterprises including hotels and other lodging places personal business repair and Amusement Services Health legal and engineering and other Professional Services Educational Services membership organizations and other miscellaneous Services then I we further Define business Business Services establishes establishments primarily engaged in rendering services to business establishments on a fee or contract basis such as advertising and mailing Building Maintenance Employment Services management and Consulting Services Protective Services equipment rental and leasing commercial research development and testing photo finishing and personal Supply Services then we go into personal services establishments primarily engaged in providing Services involving the care of of a person or his or her personal Goods or apparel and then retail sales is defined as establishments engaged in selling Goods or merch merchandise to the general public for personal or household consumption and rendering Services incidental to the sale of such Goods so none of those were are defined in our ordinance we have those as permitted uses in zones but we don't have any definition so it's um why do you why do you have why do you have hotels and motels it's a business under Services cuz we've just defined that on bottom page four uh bottom of page four including hotels and other lodging places okay that's a good catch um these are definitions taken out of that reference manual that I was talking about so we can yeah we really we're already dealing with them we should so we're going to strike hotels and other lodging places from the definition of services um just as a point of reference personal Supply Services what we don't have anything in our ordinance regarding ebikes or golf cart rentals or any of that sort of thing and they become com pretty pretty [Music] popular is that is that would that would that defition we have the use anywhere in town we because they're not technically right they're all out of town in the perimeter because well they're required under the recently passed code to have a meranti license which was going to be but but they're not they're not allowed in town There's Nothing allows golf C rentals you don't have a perm use it's not a permitted use why would equipment equipment rental and leasing all that well if that's if that's what this is if that's what this is addressing under Business Services the more difficult issue with those types of businesses is whenever you have the primary when when when the stuff is on display the stuff you're releasing is on display outside it's like a car dealership and is that use outside or inside like can you just put golf carts all over the the parking lot I mean that's kind of what's going on over there in Park Avenue I guess there's kind of golf carts everywhere right but it's not in Cape May yeah no it's not but I got to deal with that one yeah there's no there there's no there's no recommendation in the re-exam about in adding that use well it's so it's if it's a recommendation we can certainly make it to to the governing body you got you got them you got the scooters you got the ebikes ebikes yeah yeah Craig can you go back to I mean unless you want to talk about that some more next week I'm sorry unless you want to talk about that some more can I just ask you about out building you can ask me anything you want this part this is going to sound stupid but I've seen it four times so you have to trust me that's then it's not stupid a separate accessory building structure not physically connected to the principal building that concept of principally a physically connected has been is being toyed with by Architects left and right um and what we're seeing what I I've had one in Cap May two in K May and two here where the connection between the principal building and the accessory structure is tenuous it's a little roof it's a path it's a Breezeway Breezeway and that has important implications because the side yards are completely different correct um and it it we also had one where I think this was in West Kate May where there was living space above the it was like a garage with an apartment above it but they connected it through some M machinations by the engineer and architect and um no that was before our zoning board oh I think we had one here and there yeah because I know that's that one not far from from me on whatever that little road is I forget New Hampshire or something but there's no New Hampshire no what is the road what is the road near the Washington Washington uh condos the were expensive ones that face the ocean right off of Broadway you know that little road that curves hon Avenue that's it is that the one you're thinking about yes um and so when you say physically connected I think you might want to take a moment you know some time to think what that really means because the vision is like your garage next to your house you immediately exit the door of the of the kitchen and walk into the garage that's that's the concept that it's attached by a common wall I thought the common wall should be the theme that it it shares a common wall as opposed to just some kind of open from from a practical standpoint why would anybody attach it because now the setbacks are so the setbacks are worse or more restrictive if you connect it that's correct what's that because you're now principal structure and so the setbacks are working our structure the way the K May's ordinance is written is that you have relaxed setback standards for accessory structures if they're not attached if they're not attached so attaching it makes it worse on you right but if there's if there's living if there's Plumbing and Heating and all the other things and the things they attach to it gets very confusing I've had that happen a couple times you have a garage you know it's essentially a second house but it's connected somehow and it becomes a single principal structure okay you understand well that's what it was on Patterson and that's what we just did in West G yeah it and then in patter we through all the things make sure it was just a bedroom and we fixed it right you can't you can't have two two kitchens and bathroom and separate units that becomes a separate dwelling if they're connected you can you can no you can't we've never allowed that yeah got to condo eyes it we've I I we had one on Myra that they tried to put two units in the same house and we said no right we've been unless you're in the R3 District well yeah I mean you're allowed you're allowed multiple you know R3 are allowed pretty much and what constitutes a separate unit is things like a kitchen oven kitchen there's a separate dwelling unit they had separate separate entries everything yeah yeah anything else I mean if if you have a garage with not a kitchen but just a bedroom and a bathroom above a garage what is that uh attached garage well I'm about to that's that's a that's attached garage and what is it if it if it's an attach if it's unattached if it's unattached it's living accommodations over a garage which is not permitted what if they attach it then if so long as it's relates to the principal structure it's it's per that's what I'm saying so if you connect it with a Breezeway you now have what would normally be a in-law suite with a garage and a bathroom and a bedroom but if you connect it somehow it's permitted and that's what I've seen happen a number of times so that's why I'm trying to understand what that connection is I don't know that you I don't know that you control that through the definition okay I think if you I think if you want that distinction then you would have to put that in the in the building controls on Patterson if they didn't have that connected could they have done it they didn't have it connected no they could master bedroom and bath above the garage no they certainly couldn't have yeah so by putting that little thing there by connec if that was just a Breezeway but but it has but they they enter through the same principal dwelling I know we went through all that torture to because of this problem but I'm just saying that if you connect it with a bre this is what they did West game may we had this so they need it did they need a sidey yard variance they got a lot use H they already had they got a lot of variances on that lot yeah so a garage a garage with a bedroom and a kitchen is not a permitted accessory use that's if it's corre if it's unattach if it's detached if it's attached even if it's on the second floor of a garage attached it all becomes the same principal structure and then it's permitted right but you can't have two separate units in there unless but when you attach it now now you've got to meet the setbacks of a primary residence yeah a garage for instance only has a 4ot side yard correct it's attached to the house it's anywhere between a it's usually about a 10 10 foots eight or 10 depending on theone so you know there there's these Lots aren't big enough to be playing with it that much I raised the issue but when it happens I've seen you get three or four gotta I've see three or four well I mean but look I get to see three boards every month so I've see see a lot of applications and I see these connections you're supposed to try to look for patterns that are happening and connecting structures to avoid being a second principal use is a common theme in the last year and a half that's what you have the zoning board for if because if they need a variance need a variance we if they didn't need variance and they just goes to the construction official they get a building permit right they connect it they connect it with a Breezeway and now they have a inlaw Suite that you wouldn't otherwise allow in-law suites are typically have separate entrances and exits and they have they have kitchens that would constitute a separate unit for the me and I I would flag it and there's there's a connection between this discussion and the uh the other discussion that's going on in town about affordable housing and providing reasonable accommod housing accommodations in things like apartments and uh Apartments over garages which now we find out we can't do so I think we're the exercise we're doing here is to make the rules so clear that we don't need variances that we don't need to have uh doubt in the minds of somebody who wants to do something with their property and that's I think that's what we're doing here I if if the definitions don't work we grafted here let's let's let's sit down and make them work there is no perfect zoning code to address every situation and that's why there is a zoning board but we want to have the most perfect definitions that we can yeah right so to avoid confusion and make it clear and so that we I think what Craig is saying is his definition of the an out building is what pretty much everybody's using that definition right now yeah that's right that's where I took it we we don't have a definition we have none right now so there's nothing defined don't please don't take this as a SN comment uh your Source document is a book written in 1993 and I was I was just kind of wondering whether or not some of those things that were crafted uh 30 years 35 years ago are are still still valid with respect to the kind of communities we currently have the kind of the properties we have the things we do with our properties are they are they is this still good a good source material I believe so some things don't change definition I we got a discussion they have updated it Karen actually has the updated version and so all right they are are mosit and Lindblom still around maybe they can clarify that I don't know are they give a call that updated version will probably tell you I mean I have to say through all my zoning and land use experience that the reference that Craig is citing they are the experts on definitions on how to explain different variations of what we're talking about so maybe we look at the updated version and the definition fits I think that's what we should go with nothing thing uh this is the fourth edition it didn't say anything much different I remember in that in that one that we talked about it does work in reverse that tenuous connection made them have to comply with the um principal stru correct right yeah really needed if we defined connection right I think Craig's definition is fine let's roll with it okay out building we're done with out building yeah we're done with the services Business Services personal services retail sales yeah are we are we inherently saying that equipment rental and leasing includes golf carts and ebikes and that sort of thing is there anything unique about them no but no but they they're just not addressed and they're and they're they're all over the place so you're saying if you leave that in there then they're going to be able to become here right is that what you're saying yeah I mean I'm I'm I'm not I'm fine with that but we I mean I mean currently those things aren't listed as a permitted use or they're not they're not addressed whatsoever right they're they're not expressly permitted which means they're not permitted right corre so I don't know that we should include equipment rental and leasing if that can include I'm not suggesting that we not allow them I'm suggesting we allow them we just be more specific about it well I don't know that I want to introduce that I I would like to look at what what zones allow business use services and what impacts that golf cart rentals could have on those zones then we should be looking at the different commercial zones and in their right so let so so what's the definition of an equipment rental well if you could you have to Define it you could put excluding ebikes golf carts and scooters a hardware store leasing pumps you know I don't know that's we already have that town under Services right swains I don't want to zoning equipment I guess there's some questions excl have question carpet cleaners I'm listening to three different conversations okay Mr chairman I have a question okay these definitions of the services and retail sales do they match up with the mertile license ordinances which uh regulate these kinds of businesses from the licensing side in other words can would there be any kind of confusion between a definition here it's different from over there no I only look so we're aboard of the zoning you know we use the zoning so I look at the zoning uses so we have these uses as permitted uses in various zones and they weren't Define so therefore I recommended that we Define those okay because we absent we it's up to interpretation okay okay all right that was the recommendation okay well I would recommend that somebody else look at the the language of the ordinances governing meranti licenses to make sure that they're consistent with definitions because what we don't want to have is a code that has two different definitions about the same thing I don't does the mercant license Define they just say some some do some don't it's it's I mean you do restaurants per seat yeah there there are some definitions uh of the of the businesses that are required to have a license and there are some that don't have a definition that's my point is let's just look at it to see that there isn't some built-in inconsistency that we allow to continue while we're changing our code to make it clearer okay okay all right we're done with the definitions for tonight um so the second recommendation was dealing with the intent of the residential district um it was recommended in there that um the purposes of zoning be added to that section um and we can do it by reference on Page 6 of 16 you could just reference um NJ ESS 40 colon 55 D2 um and if you want to actually elaborate you can include all of the purposes of zoning which are listed on the next two pages on page six and seven just so you know what the purposes of zoning are um is there any questions with that I don't know is there a consensus on just um do it by reference include the whole thing how ised by reference just like this that part or that's a good idea or all the letters I think do it by reference right I think by refence reference okay and then if it ever and then if the legislature ever changes that it's still included by reference and then we're good okay number 19 Craig I'm sorry all the above on that by reference section from the state U Is this where it includes a reference to revitalization districts revitalization yeah because I think that was uh referenced in the master plan as being something that we would endorse uh and that the state sort of required it to be part of the are you talking about Redevelopment R yeah Redevelopment yeah um there I don't think there's any is there a specific language with regard to Redevelopment there may be but thought I saw something you would have to have a specific Redevelopment plan I don't I don't remember seeing Redevelopment in here I I didn't say it so it might have been in another section no there well Redevelopment is mentioned in the master plan but it's not right we're not tackling it here tonight all right all right page eight to comprehensively re-examine and address the standards for the r the S1 and S2 districts these are our beach strand districts um so S1 is the beach strand stand District um I did inventory the uses that are there um they included the business that are known as la la Lobster takaria fudge kitchen fbal Primal there's several arcades there's retail sales boutiques and there's a City Beach Tag Services um structure um so they it was recommended that they be added as permitted uses so um at the bottom of section 5253 S1 I added letter D the retail sale of goods or prepared food e eating establishments designed for on premises consumption including those having outdoor table facilities providing that such facilities are portable and within 10t of the principal building that's the those both of those sections are the exact language in the C1 District and then I also added because there is outdoor seating I believe going on there um we allow it as an accessory use um out outdoor seating which is permitted in every other District right yeah put it in there and that was that was missing and then I looked at the S2 district and that is the um Beach districts that are located at the East End end and West End of the our beaches um those really don't have any development portions of the beach club actually you know extend into that but the where their structure is and the the main um area of their of their lot does not extend into the S2 District so therefore I believe that there's no changes that are necessary for that District you should those existing uses are fine and acceptable back back real quick back to the um beach D the S1 okay you we've got a requirement of of parking for one one and a half spaces reach licensed machine I mean that's how I I wasn't going to I'm not going to change I didn't want to change that because it's existing and and the uses there had you know we had um there's no way they're providing parking for anything they're not they had to come in for a parking variance I mean they we had we had one in recent history come in for that um I just think it should be taken out it's it's you can make that recommendation which which which item Bill the number number three um three there's no available parking in any of that all right on on on-site parking okay uh Mr chairman I would uh suggest that we keep that in there of course and your logic my logic is that that the city in in total is including parking as a required element of any kind of commercial development uh that we're not able to generate enough Revenue in this city to support transportation services or parking services at this point but the requirement to have a parking space connected with your business or your license is is a way ultimately to U examine fees and and and um well see that's not see you're talking about a monetary reason we're talking about zoning here right so so so but your suggestion that remove this from this section implies that it probably ought to be removed from every section no I didn't say that well no I didn't say it did I I say it opened the door to taking parking requirements out of the to this one section on the beach front which is the beach side of beach drive reing them to have parking is and when you and when you say to one section of our code that we're taking your parking requirement out it opens the door for the discussion of taking parking and the master plan actually does allude to this and we'll talk about this I guess at some point the master plan does suggest that parking requirements for uh for uh rental properties and Commercial properties and the mole be removed as well we I I would like this not to get into into a discussion of throwing away the parking requirements just because we currently can't provide enough parking if I can just ask a follow-up question just so I can understand the process with it too right so if I were to put in an application and I was approved and I can't provide parking at that location I make a contribution to the parking trust correct no no no provision we're going to talk about that in in a minute but good that's what I want that's not that that would not have applied to this okay and then just a followup for the outdoor seating so as an accessory use so we're saying like a restaurant like Primal would be able to now provide outside seating in their in their area as long as they fit to the rules and regulations of they would have outdoor seating so they would have to they would have to file an outdoor seating permit and make sure that they comply whether or not they comply or not or can comply or not is there's two different I I actually don't think like Primal I I I have memory of that I'm just using them as an example I can Envision their their property line doesn't give them enough room to do it without spilling out onto the prominade so they would be denied it's they would have to have sufficient space in order to do it it's not saying it's automatic it just says it doesn't say they can do out the receeding now so if we give them that that option which is not in there right that that's it's it's not endowing any rights to anybody okay but if it if it's unaddressed you're not allowed to block sidewalks you're not allowed to encroach into the public right away like so if you have enough lot sufficient lot area you could theoretically do it I mean we're having a tough enough time policing what we have out on you know the Washington Street mall and and things like that so I would have to say I wouldn't be for adding that as a as a use to it okay that's my opinion though Bill your reason your reasoning to get rid of this parking is because this is everything oceans side of the Prine correct correct I mean that's it y That's the only reason why you're doing that's the that's the the S1 is on the ocean side of beach Avenue correct applies to S1 yes only S1 and aren't there tables like Fu and L la la Lobster they have outdoor tables but that's on their property as I or it's it me it meets the criteria I'm assuming I'm assuming I I I didn't see the outdoor seating application but so so keeping keeping that in there and and with Primal assuming that they don't meet the criteria they wouldn't be permitted to do it or any other establishment I mean I'm just looking at it as you know we're supposed to be looking at things where we're looking into the future and I mean like I said we're having a tough enough time policing what we have why would we try to add additional you know things into the mix well the only problem is you can't deny a business the ability to do what every other similar business in this town is able to do just because we can't sure enforce sure they should have the same right sure and you know and and as long as we're looking at the rules and regulations to it established under you know chapter 412 you know we would have to have a deeper dive into what exactly those rules are to make sure and make sure code enforcement has a good understanding of what that process is too well the so the the process is the zoning officer takes a look at it fire police you know all of the the various agencies the city engineer looks at the plan the plan is approved and then you can have the seats only if it meets the criteria that's listed in there and there and it's you know very very strict Craig I I have a question about this U the S the uh S1 proposal by codifying businesses and the kinds of businesses that will be permitted in the S1 does that open up the S1 in in general for an increase in the kinds of businesses we're permitting here and would that in fact become make the short make the S1 District a commercial buffer between the prominade and the beach I so with with the environment environmental criteria you're not allow you're not going to be able to expand outside to any footprint that you have there um so structure natur Al you're contained within there if there's a change of use that requires additional parking they would have to come to the board for site plan approval as well as a parking variance you would control that but so you we're sure that for example the uh the beach in front of Ocean Street which is between the the uh Primal and the convention hall right there would never be an expansion of businesses like this in that zone that's own by the city yeah all these but but the city could lease that property well it's controlled by the d d will never that's a good point D will never that's all all that basically generally speaking what's not built so there's an overriding contr so that's all controlled by DP DP doesn't want any any housing construction on we're sure the city has a hard enough time getting Beach M permitted out there okay it's just I wanted to put that idea I knew if it doesn't exist now they're never going to get it this I knew that was the case I wanted to put it on the table to make sure that this wasn't an invitation to business the city controls most of these properties I I believe so um okay so I didn't think I was in proliferating development out there by just including the uses that are already existing you wouldn't do it on purpose but maybe accidentally are we proposing to uh Delete C3 the parking what's the consensus on that just so I think you should delete it straw po how do you how do you enforce that can't enforce it they have to get a variance I mean they have to come in and get a variance so if you have something that's a change of use something that's retail right now and changes to a restaurant which would be permitted okay then what's what's a licensed machine well that so we're we're talking about eliminating the parking requirements only for S1 S1 oh no only for amusement centers and existing structures that's it that's it that's it so it's C it's A1 C3 right so you're looking at uses by right Amusement centers and existing structures and then they give you a whole bunch of criteria of what what they are and just for the record I I would oppose that because it's a peacemeal approach to parking and I think this board's responsibility is to do comprehensive reform and not peac meal so if we're going to discuss parking and the parking trust fund at a later time then I think any issue related to parking ought to be held in OB bance until we have that discussion I I think I think this is not a money-making board I didn't say it was I'm I'm talking about the policy for the city uh with regard to parking if we're going to look at it in a comprehensive way later on in this report do that consensus then I'm maybe I've heard positive and a negative and I mean my my my sense is it should be eliminated because it's something that you can't do I agree oh I agree get rid of it okay can we go around well you can't do it around the mall either no that that's the next that's another topic well we're getting there too so just that's one yeah with just ask well no I I agree it could be stricken and I agree that there's no need to strike it because it's been there forever it doesn't change anything and nobody cares except me I think it should be strict it's okay anyone else obviously can I ask a question if uh business changed hands and they wanted to change to a restaurant you know from retail to a restaurant that is when they would need a zoning variant so that would change the parking count the change of use would require site plan approval and they would require you guys to approve that long as there a permitted use I agree with the concerns that dentist raises but frankly requiring someone to get a variance for something so simple seems silly to me right yeah exactly that's that's a good point I mean they were're requiring to get a variance for something that's not physically possible possible yeah right so it costs them money they're going to go through all that yeah unnecessarily okay but I I would say on the record I agree with your concerns consens is we're taking it out right correct okay yeah any you anyone else want to comment it I don't want to steal anyone's Thunder yeah okay um so that was 19 and we talked about S1 S2 no changes to under 20 um so there was concerns with regards to the swimming pools so I listed the current regulations for swimming pools and it has all of the setback and Landscaping requirements and then I also on page on the bottom of page 10 in the beginning of page 11 show you the corner lot restrictions so the corner Lots require that both yards facing the streets be treated as front yards and therefore the pools and patios connect Ed may not be located within that setac we're forward of the building face fronting on those streets so I'm looking for direction I I think that that's enough control to kind of protect the corner lot situation but if the board wants stricter language in there or additional controls please direct me as how to do how to do that I I think it's been working yeah I think it's been working yeah just be they came to us asking for a variance I mean so that means the control was working and we we consider it on a case-by Case basis so right so that's why I was hesitant to put any more restrictions on it so if that's acceptable to the board we'll move on is there any comment yeah I have a comment and it's not based on the definition so I the definition I understand o only bringing to light what what we kind of discussed at the last application but I've had multiple people contact me since and that is kind of getting into the idea of um large whole house rentals some of which as we all know have more than 20 people in them and going back to the hotel definition under that definition it was almost a hotel okay uh by the way that was the old definition not the new one but in any event I I some of the concerns that people Express to me I understand which is for instance if you have have a pool at a hotel that hotel is typically manned by someone at the front desk in the lobby whatever um you have noisy kids somebody goes in and complains to the lobby desk the lobby takes care of it obviously that's not happening at the large whole house rental that has nothing to do with the definition but I just if talking about pools and and and regulating them I don't know how I don't know how we do I'm not offering a solution but for hotels of course there's an on-site staff that help monitor not necessarily lifeguards I think there are a couple hotels that do have lifeguards but not all the time but it's also regulated uh typically not necessarily by the noise ordinance by but by the hotel itself most of the hotels are dawned to dusk so a lot of times that's like 8:00 p.m. and and shorter um obviously we regular my understanding is through the noise ordinance in regards to pools so all I'm saying is people could potentially be very loud and Rowdy in a pool until 10 p.m. just bringing those up as complaints that I've received in the mayor's office that I'm frankly sympathetic to to people kind of say look I'm trying to enjoy my home I have a really noisy pool and they're going right until 10 p.m. while that's not super late it can be a bit of an annoyance and I I don't know again not part of the definition but just bringing that up right that become the enforcement issues yeah um yeah that's a hard one I don't think it's something we're addressing tonight by the way I'm just bringing it to the table the one the one thing I would like to point out is a lot of the pools that exist now were constructed before your most your uh the governing body's most recent changes to this there's now a whole bunch of more Landscaping buffering requirements right um so you're starting we're starting to see pools develop with that right you know it stinks that the existing ones are out there and they're not really buffered and you know but I think that the new RS do a little more to sort of buffer and baffle that sound the new EGS also provide that a pool could be in a sidey yard they that's you have a 10-ft yeah that's actually that you have a 10- foot setback from all required yards that's sometimes more restrictive than than principal structure setbacks in in some of the zones and it can't be in the front yard it can't be in the front yard that's obious right can't be in the front yard can't be forward of the face of the structure um uh would would we want to consider changing that to make it that they can't they must be uh rearward of the rear uh of the structure the backyard it can't be in the backyard is not it can be they can only be in the backyard pretty much where they're at I think right I mean you have a side yard setback and a rear yard setback and you can't be in the front yard you're pretty much constrained to the rear houses that fa that front on two two streets right in which case or if you have enough on side you can put a pool my point is people are building pools at record numb around town there there pools in the side yard and they're building pools in the side visible from the street if you think about it you've got to have pool's got to be 10 ft from the property line got to be 10t from the house the pool is probably going to be a minimum of 10 foot wide that's 30 foot of your lot most Lots in town are not much bigger than 60 70 ft house you're not getting a lot of them on the side of a house just simply because of the width of a lot yeah it's not that it's not a lot it's definitely not a lot it's not the issue it's not the issue that the mayor raised where it's a big party house and it's not it's not a huge pool on what you described can't be and that ruins it for everything it's a bathtub and not in front of the face yeah I would have liked to seen the side yard pool eliminated but it's just not a big deal I guess okay okay no changes good nope mhm all right are we are we planning tackling all this tonight you guys you guys run the show I'm just going through my memo there there's some there's some hotter button topics towards the end of this motion to adjourn that's that's that's the point and a couple of us went to the meeting at 5 haven't had dinner we can stop here and we'll continue next meeting I don't that's up to you good with that good plan good plan because if this Craig's right we're we're going to start getting into some Med some meteor not meteor meteor issues here yes we are I think that's a good idea okay that's a great idea Mr chairman all right I'm stopping at number 21 so we'll pick up with 21 so this gets serious here Martin you want to say anything no just here for the show oh um so can we pay the bills if you guys are fin motion to pay the bills just move second second okay we have a motion by Mr Gorgon seconded by Mr Jones Mr gorgone yes mayor mullik yes council member Jagger yes Mr Crowley yes Mr lenhome yes Mr rigs yes Mr uh Mr produces yes Mr Jones yes Mr bazer yes thank you all right so we'll pick this up next work session next work session yeah what we got we got some things done thank you Craig thanks everyone thanks everyone for the input I can't you'll learn yeah they didn't new compliance plans yet all right okay good okay I'll wait for that then okay good oh say that is that what it is