e e e e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] good afternoon this is a hearing of the chadam Conservation Commission being held on May 8th 2024 in accordance with the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act in the town of chadam wetlands protection bylaw and regulations my name is Janet Williams and I serve as the chair today's hearing is being broadcast live on Channel 8 and is being recorded for the on demand hour archives available on the town's website it's being conducted in person by phone and by video conference the agenda instructions on how to attend and copies of documents for review have all been posted on the town's website so to all participants whether you're attending by phone or online please remain muted until you've been recognized by the chair and if you're on the phone you can mute and unmute by using star six and if you're online and you're not a commissioner please keep your camera turned on off until you've been recognized you can indicate that you wish to speak by using the raised hand feature when recognized please remember to identify yourself for the record so that we have a record of a quarum attending today I'll now ask each commission member to indicate their presence Vice chair Karen Lon present Bob rolls present Mary Sullivan she's here she was there a second ago Telemetry tests hi there you are okay gotcha uh Elise Gordon present Cheryl mury is not here today uh Eric Hilbert pres associate member Bob Delio present all right and I'm here so we've established that we have a quorum um before we begin the agenda I'll ask uh Paul Whitman our uh conservation agent whether there are any requests for continuances today I think he's muted PA can you hear us you're there you go okay here y good afternoon Madam chair Commissioners we have three requests for continuances I'll read the legal ads when we get to that point in the agenda the three are 155 and 157 Bridge Street that's continued to May 22nd 30 Sears Point Lane is continued to May 22nd and 26 salt Pon road is continued to May 22nd all May 22nd okay right okay okay and Salt Pond no Salt Pond is going forward right below Sears where is s oh there it is okay May 22nd I have it written there all right so at this point uh Paul can you begin to lead us through the agenda thank you madam chair first on the agenda is a requested order of conditions the address is 53 Marsh View Road alvara and Laura M Master Bono map HC parcel s38 the EP number se10 3676 and the project is demolition of an existing dwelling and construction of a new dwelling all right thank you you're welcome good afternoon gentlemen good afternoon David Clark on on behalf of the master Bonos uh Phil Cheney is in person today to avoid any issues with the communication um and I believe the master boners are online uh the way we left it last time there were two issues uh one um hadn't filed with zoning board yet uh we do have a date that is two weeks from tomorrow and um commission asked for some changes to the mitigation uh so we didn't have to go into naturalized areas to plant and Phil's submitted a revised plan um and he's here to to talk about that okay good afternoon Phil Cheney landscape designer you have the new mitigation plan uh which we adjusted According to some of the concerns of requests uh basically slid the plantings uh to the South uh to areas that are a little bit more Disturbed and and we included the addition of a river birch tree to uh provide some of the buffering and screening that was talked about with the Butters and and in general so we have uh we have that new plan and there was also some concerns raised about additional uh Landscaping being shown okay at the house uh we had the four inkberries on the plan and that's really all that is intended the remainder of the house that's within the buffer zone is porch and Patio and so we have no plantings uh intended for those areas so what you see is what's intended at this point okay so there's um do you think there will will be some sort of landscape plan that will be ultimately that's basically what's intended no I say okay they may decide to do something down the road but at this point here this is all that's really looking for this there's really not much of a foundation to be planting and uh the rest is just going to be natural and open okay so we don't we don't anticipate having a landscape plan all right so we we had made a note in here to ask about that and have it submitted but uh correct I will take that out I have a question go ahead questions um can you tell me why you took out the sweet Fern and added more Northern Bay berries so that we don't have any variety anymore yeah the sweet Fern was going in a location which uh there were some objections about whether or not it was really required there or not and the area that we're moving the mitigation to uh really benefit AIT more from a screening St Str standpoint and the ability to use plants with bigger Mass uh than just a sweet Fern so uh I thought that was very appropriate to use that there okay I would have liked to have seen more variety and I think at our last meeting which was quite a while ago we actually had said maybe add more sweet FM or something so I found it interesting that they were taken out well see we're we're not talking about a lot of plants no you're not you're right okay other questions or comments on the order I I put some in there I don't know if you've seen them yep so the order has been the draft order was in the dropbox at some uh there have been some edits made I think that was done before it was put on my town go because you guys knew that saw the landscape issue coming at you um Foundation plants in the aura must be 75% straight native patio will be perious and I think uh we changed the 175 to 180 Square ft of the mitigation that was the change that was made at the last hearing and I've updated the dating of the mitigation plan revised 415 David the site plan didn't change is that right the site plan did not get revised when the uh mitigation plan was revised no okay that's still 37 okay we only have one yep other questions or comments Bob go ahead I just had a a question um on the plan fill you label the northern Bayberry MH as uh as there being nine and then in the key down below it says seven cat I did catch to [Music] say I'm sorry yeah this I mean the the plan only shows seven the label is is inaccurate on the the plan uh not sure why that uh came out that way you make that make that change then I can make that adjustment okay and on all right thank you good catch there anything else yeah I was just going to say the Bayberry is a good choice in that area it's full sun it should do well it's not great anybody else anybody online or on the phone with any questions or comments hearing none I'll take a motion then to close the hearing and approve the are we oh no I'm Sor we can't we are set but we can't we can't vote on it yet until you guys go to zba on the 23rd is that a new policy or well it's just that in case they make it anything gets changed then we would have to go back and go through an amendment process well if they do ask for changes it won't be within your jurisdiction probably not but we we've we've been stung a couple times so we try to be approve it we're ready to go with it and um we will vote on it and issue it at the hearing right after June 5th on June 5th after the zba goes forward okay okay just to be on the safe side um all right a motion then to continue 53 Marsh view to June the 5th I move that we continue 53 Marsh View Road to the meeting on June 5th I'm sorry I had a hand up I'm sorry oh sorry who is that I'm I'm the owner of the property yes hello um I'm I'm a little bit wondering now for another continuance and I have a real practical consideration is the two men in that room there Phil Cheney and uh and uh Clark and David Clark I have to pay them every time they come to this meeting so if there's another continuance I have to pay them again so they they if it's not required I don't know why it's really administrative they wouldn't need to come unless the Z the zoning board required any kind of change that impacted Us in which case no matter what we'd have to go through another process of approving any further changes but if there if zoning does not there this would just be a matter of approving it and issuing it okay I just thought I heard David just said there's nothing that the zoning board would say that would impact this we would expect not but um sometimes we've been surprised so just as a matter it would it would a lot easier and better for you if uh if that were to happen and after we had issued this we you'd have to go through a whole request to amend and we'd have to go through an amendment process which is way more time consuming and expensive than us just doing an administrative vote to approve it and issue it okay so if there's no issues at zba nothing affects that uh discussed here it's just an administrative test that we'll just vote we we will vote and issue it and that'll be that okay all right thank you for that we won't make any changes if zba doesn't change anything in our area I move that we continue 53 marshview road to meeting on June 5th for an order of conditions Gordon second roll call vote Bob I Elise I Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I so we will not necessarily see you hopefully everything will go well at zoning and we will issue this on June 5th thank you all right Paul what's next thank you madam chair next on the agenda is an extension request for an order of conditions the address is 54 and Z cross Pond Road the applicants Joan and Paul Parsons map 10K parcel 17 L6 and 18 L5 D number se10 3498 the project is removal and reconstruction of a single family dwelling and Associated site improvements the applicants are requesting an extension to allow monitoring and restoration to continue uh with those maint maintenance activities including invasive species management the order expires on 71524 so an extension for one year would bring it out to 71524 25 25 oh sorry 25 you correct and this is the first this is the first um yep the order was issued in 20 uh July of 2021 so this is the first extension and the the mitigation plants were installed in the fall of 22 so they have they only had one full growing season so um Jen's online I see um is there anything else you want to tell us about it Jen Nope I just wanted to be here in case you guys had any additional questions so everything has gone in um I mean we've been we've been carrying out the plan just as it was permitted we just uh need a little bit more time to meet the requirements before COC okay anybody have questions or comments all right ready for a motion then to approve the extension I move that we approve a one-year extension for 54 and zero Crow Pond Road to July 15 2025 Gordon second roll call vote Bob Elise hi Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I that's been approved thank you thank you all all right Paul what's next okay next on the agenda is uh 83 seagull Road this is an extension request and zero tantum Road outermost H Marine map 15 A1 and 15 A2 parcels 12- h98 and 1-n 133 D number se10 3334 the project is proposed dredging in sand placement extension requested to allow time to combine open orders for future dredging the order expires on 71524 and extension will carry to 71525 and do we want to open the uh the companion yes request we can do that y yeah I was going I was going to ask you that y so the next one is ALS also 83 seall Road 30 Wilkin way and zero starfish Lane outmost Marine Harbors the applicant map 1581 parcel 12- h98 D number se10 3333 propos Marina expansion and expanded dredge footprint the extension requested to allow time to combine open orders for dredging the order expires on 61924 and an extension will carry it to 61 1925 okay thank you is there anybody online or in person here to speak to this it's easy okay um so Paul in your conversations I know you had conversations with the folks at outermost um can you summarize what uh yes what's happening there and why they need the extensions uh Harrison Khan and I um have talked on several occasions I visited the site um he's retained a new engineer uh these orders are due to expire so he wants to keep them open he wants to combine them he's hired a new engineer to come up with a new plan um which will address um you know where the spoils are going to go dredging the channel um and sort of take a new look at it in terms of the footprint so that's why he's requesting extension because he's going to combine all this into probably one one order um but that's what's going on and just so everyone's aware um there is nothing that's going to happen until the fall because of the um required uh closure dredge dates for piping clovers and other required closing so there's nothing that he can do until the fall anyway so uh at that time he hopes to come in with a new uh plan from BSC group okay so these two these two dredging permits are the only two permits for the dredging work and that's correct there are number of other permits that are outstanding at this facility but these are the only two with dredging um we would be very encouraging of an effort to uh combine all these into a single permit and I know there's been there have been talked previously a couple years back about a single Master permit for the facility but maybe that's too much at least the uh two dredging permits can be combined so that there's uh there's Clarity because it's hard to figure out when uh they they they SL slightly differ in their uh disposal areas and uh dredging zones so um if you speak to him again um just keep encouraging him to uh work with BSC and and come back with a with a new proposal new noi and we'll close these out I shall do that I spent a great deal of time going through these files to uh I I believe that and I've already extended my sympathies to the permit coordinator who has uh yeah got got a promotion to be able to to through the uh dozen or so outstanding permits thank God for Crystal y okay so there between the two there are restrictions on winter flounder horseshoe clabs P piping plover so there is only a small window of opportunity to do the work this fall hopefully that gets done we don't have to extend again and we look forward to a new filing any questions comments all right hi um oh this is Lane Zimmerman uh 19 Lobster Lane sorry I'm dialed in so I can't do the uh hand raise feature that's okay so can you tell me your name again uh first name is Lane l a n e Zimmerman okay thank you Mr Zimmerman go ahead um have a question about um the goals of the report that the engineer will be forming um my understanding is it'll definitely you know have to do with uh the functionality of the channels that outermost Marina uses but I'm also wondering if there'll be any focus on um impacts on flooding in that area um uh go ahead Paul yeah yeah I I I can't speak to that at at this point in time I suppose as we move through yeah I I I think that it's a legitimate concern obviously you're aware that the whole area floods down there now we we've got a whole situation going on with flooding in the immediate area as well as almost almost so I'm sure they're going to uh look at that and try and address it um but I can't give you any specific specific information uh at this time I think that's what's under review right now so sometime uh if you want to contact us again in the in the fall perhaps they'll have a better handle on that but we certainly are open to giving you any information we get at any point in time which is public information with respect to these two uh two projects that's great to hear thank you and I I'm thinking though that making contact again in the fall might be a little too late because if the intention is if we're do have this narrow window to accomplish the project anything that's found by the engineer would have to be found in the next couple months right to leave window for discussion not not necessarily but I'll tell you what we'll solve it this way why don't you send an email to me the conservation agent and I'll make sure that you get copied um on this issue um as we move along awesome and um can I find your email on a website it's on it's on the town of chadam website um conservation agent I don't want to give it over here just yeah just just go on the town website and and you'll see you'll see me there and you can just grab the email and I'll respond to you awesome thank you so much I appreciate it you're welcome thank you Mr Zimmerman anybody else thank you okay all right let's go with an I move that we Grant a one-year extension to hello I'm sorry I'm also on audio so unable to to see you or raise my hand jul and I had a question what I'm sorry what was your name Julia Berg okay from six starfish Ling I was just hoping to get a clear definition on what expansion is mentioned in the agenda and for this extension I know that the marina was working on a boat launch and I was curious of that were has been completed or if they're planning to do other expansion activities that hasn't been shared to date Paul do you have any information on that it's unfortunate that Mr Khan's not here today because heble to answer these questions yeah but I mean I again um Miss Berg has contacted me several times over the last two weeks and um you know I will stay in touch with her on this issue but I can't answer that question at this time because that's something that Mr KH and his engineer are are kind of working on now so it's a it's a work in progress and uh you certainly have every right to attend hearings and make comments and uh you know we'll keep you in the loop along the way yeah and I appreciate that I guess my concern is that if something is approved today for an undefined expansion that we wouldn't have a voice as a butter to yeah hey this is Crystal I think I can clear this one up okay go ahead Crystal so the description on the agenda is the exact um description that was on the original permit right and it just says extension because they're they're asking for they wanted an expansion on that particular permit when they filed it Yep this is nothing that's going to expand this permit right to give them any extra area to dredge right it's only what's in the permit that was issued back in 2019 I think it was yep all this does is extends the expiration date of the approved permit right I I think I explained that earlier too but yeah it's just that Crystal's right for clarification that's yep no it does say expanded dredge footprint but that meant the the original uh permit for 2019 correct okay um right and I think the concern of the neighbors is that there isn't specificity to to Really any of this and where dredge spoils are placed or you know the outcome of the engineer report or what constructions been going on and so um I appreciate that I now have a connect with Paul um but since um it's kind of a question mark at this point we want to make sure that that we're in the loop and these are being communicated To Us by our neighbors yep well Miss B I'll also I'll tell that if Paul can get you the date um that we uh heard these permit uh applications and you can go on the um Conservation Commission website and using that date you can pull up all of the plans that were filed that would have identified disposal areas and dredge areas so all of that would be specified in the plans which don't change the plans are still the same yes I I came into the office on April 26th um and um I've reviewed the plans um there just doesn't seem to be an answer on on these important questions on the spoils placement and on the dredging so um that's what the output of the engineering report is is my understanding okay um no that's it's it's specified y yep it's just always yeah it's specified and and that's where they have to put it and if they don't then it needs to be brought to the town's attention and something will be done um who's RB with a hand raised hi that's Rod Barby 10 starfish Lane um I was just wondering along with placement of the spoils the uttermost has been bringing an excavator across our property to get out to the beach and I was wondering if their permit gives them permission to do that the permits are very explicit that they do not confer any private property rights on anybody um all we do is approve a project it's up to the applicant to secure any rights that they need such as license to cross property or easement rights or whatever it would be so no the permit would not give them the right to cross a property thank you um to this point they've been out there at least twice maybe more and we feel that they've crossed our property taking down a fence to get over there and um have not asked permission from any of us at any point umy the town and and they dumped the spoils on our Beach uh sand full of rocks and shells and whatever other debris yeah uh the second part that you just mentioned if they're if they're disposing of sand in an area that's not permitted that would be something that we would look into and Paul would check into um in terms of Crossing private property um that is not something that that we can get involved in um so sadly I would tell you that you'd have to uh get some counsel on on what your rights are as a property owner to stop somebody from uh Crossing it without authorization maybe post a no trespassing sign would help that help lots of people do that okay thank you thank you okay anybody else I see a hand Paul what's the way that you recommend filing one of those complaints you mentioned is there a way of doing that on the website who is this who's who is speaking I'm sorry this is Lane Zimmerman again Ohan speaking earlier okay oh um well you know F first and foremost I I always encourage the ab Butters to contact UM autost Marine to see if you can resolve it before you bring it to us but um you can certainly well okay um I know there have been disputes in the past um I haven't been involved in any of those and I know that there are um allegations on sort of both sides of the fence on this one I someone did this no I didn't so it's a that's kind of what's going on um you can email me and uh usually when we get a request for any kind of a a violation uh we go right out and check it out and then make a report to the to the chair and uh we take it from there so you can contact the agent uh if something happens in the future and uh you know I'd be happy to investigate it thank you you're welcome hi this is go ahead Amanda ly 22 starfish I just had a question like of I guess um building on some of the other questions that were asked around the drudging spoils and I guess to um Rob's comment that that there are things that are put on the beach like is it part of the study um the assessment I know there was mentioned around like what the impact it has on flooding but are they also looking at like the environmental impact on our local Wildlife what's whatever they're proposing as part of the expansion and drudging well if there's further extension uh expansion of a dredging area or a change in the disposal area then by proposing that they would automatically be required to to provide an assessment of the impacts of those activities that would be part of what they would be filing with us that we hope and we expect will be filed sometime soon okay okay so um you just uh watch and it'll be noticed public notice will go out in the newspaper to all AB Butters you'll receive a notice in the mail when they file something so you'll have uh a lot you'll have a couple weeks at least advanced notice of the date of the hearing and I encourage you to come and and bring your questions and concerns and and ask them directly is there anybody else before I start um this is R this is Rod Barby again um one thing I wanted to note is it appears that years ago the address that they used to notify us was a non-existent zero starfish Lane uh so no one received any notice so I've just asked that they actually use an address that is uh relevant don't they have to do that with the town well they have to they they they are required to do it by by certified mail so there would be a record if it came back undeliverable right um but if the address needs to be updated they have to contact the town the assessor's office the assessor's office is where these where the addresses are pulled from this is Crystal yep go ahead Crystal always with the answer so the assessor the assessor's office is where they get the list from and the assessor's office is where the tax bills go so that address has to be corrected with them but that's not on our end or the Assessor's end right so Mr Barby if you're not getting tax bills either um because they're going to something that is coming from the assessor's office doesn't exist um you should get in touch with them and find out what address they're using and get that corrected okay thank you thank you anyone else all right motion all right I move that we approve a one-year extension for A3 seagull Road and zero to squantum road to septe to July 15 2025 Gordon second roll call vote Bob leas I Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I so that's uh approved for another year I move that go ahead we approve a one-year extension for 83 seagull Road 30 wi wilus Road way and zero starfish Lane to June 19th 2025 Gordon second roll call vote Bob hi Elise I Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I all right so those two are both approved and hopefully we'll get a new filing and uh can address a lot of these questions okay all right Paul uh where do we go next okay yeah next on the agenda is a request to amend in order of conditions the address is 155 and 157 Bridge Street Eastwood companies map 15b parcel 1B D number se10 3452 demo two existing dwellings and a pool construct uh the amendment is to relocate the dwellings further away from the resource area the applicant uh is requesting a continuance to May 22nd uh there was a uh a glitch in uh in the filing by uh the applicant so okay I move that we continue 155 and 157 Bridge Street to the meeting on May 22nd 2024 for amended order of conditions Gordon second roll call vote Bob hi Elise hi Karen hi Eric I Mary I and I vote I that's continued to the 22nd all right Paul what's up next okay now we're down to uh notice of intents uh 240 and 438 George Ryder Road 1652 Main Street chatt municipal airport is the applicant map 9f 240 10g 438 the EP number se106 excuse me se101 1652 Main Street the address parcel 0-2 24018 K1 438 53- 27 150 excuse me 1652 Main and the D number is 103658 the proposed project includes vegetation management required to remove obstructions within navigable airspace in compliance with the Federal Aviation Administration regulations all right thank you I see um welcome representatives are on the platform so good afternoon hi good afternoon commission this is Adrien dunk from GZA here representing the airport Marco terano with Gail associates also representing the airport all right good afternoon to both um so let me start by asking whether do you have a presentation planned for today um yes I have a short presentation um just to guide our discussion yep yep I think it may I'm hoping that it goes in the same order that uh I've sort of listed the topics but I think we all have the same topics we know what we need to discuss today so um we'll get to them in whatever order makes the most sense so why don't you uh lead off and then we'll see where it goes okay um I will do that in just a moment I'm putting it into the presentation mode all right yep excellent um okay I apologize too many screens going going on I know that feeling um so today we wanted to talk about the tree measurement results down at the runway 24 end um just kind of review the maximum allowable height and then discuss um proposed mitigation okay before you start let me just say two things one is thank you for the tree measurement uh the survey and the uh the inventory of the trees we found that very helpful and and and good guiding information and for anybody who's watching um that has been posted on my town gov so you can access that report there and it has a lot of very detailed information about the trees that were identified on the site um so all right with that go ahead Adrien great yes so on um April 17th we did have um members of the GZA staff on site down by the cranberry bog at the runway 24x to measure trees within Conservation Commission jurisdiction um so we did provide that that memorandum of results to the commission this week um and so trees that could be measured were they were compared to the maximum allowable height and they were flagged with this green flagging as shown in the pictures if they were below the maximum allowable height and would remain um after the cutting activities and they were flagged with orange if they would be removed moved many trees could not be measured because of the limitations around seeing the base of the tree and the top of the canopy of the trees so those ones were simply not marked in the field um two areas the study area one and study area two were kind of measured using a a accurate GPS unit to measure the total area and then count up the number of trees to be cut trees to remain and unmeasurable trees to give us kind of a frame of reference about the property um and here these are the maximum allowable Heights um so 35 40 45 um and so in the field they were able to say okay I'm standing next to this tree it's allowed to be 40t now let's measure it it's 45 ft right now it would be cut it's 38 ft it would remain um so it's kind of the process in the field can I just jump in really quick to clarify something these Heights that are listed is that the obstruction Zone plus the 10 feet that we had talked about before the safety piece right so that's okay so all right that's the absolute limit then okay so that's yeah that's the maximum allowable height which is 10 ft below the surface height and so that's the standard that we use is that maximum allowable height um and so then these these Heights match the plans that that were provided with the original noi um so here in study area one in the cranberry bog it was about 1,400 Square fet um so 17 trees were present and 53% of those trees would be removed 18% would remain and then the other 29% just couldn't be measured at this time um so as we talked about during construction during the tree removal um the you know the engineer on site the representative on site would be measuring each tree before it was cut and we would keep a log of of which trees were removed um so that we could provide that information to the commission um but there's just some physical limitations on on doing that on the ground right now um down here this is more of a lawn area so it was um almost 1,800 Square F feet but there were only seven trees present um and here 30% of the trees would be removed 43% would remain and there was still um two trees which represents another 30% that couldn't be measured um so this you know I the commission's been to this site down here in this lawn area by the Home the trees are a lot less dense um so we were able to flag you know get get a better measurement of them um just as as we just discussed right this is the maximum allowable height it's 10 feet below the part 77 surface and so that is the height that we used in the field that is the height that's shown on the plans and that is the height that we would be cutting to and then maintaining um as the airport moves into the long-term plan so I will pause there because our next topic is mitigation and so we can pause there and talk about okay I do think we have some questions about about this um and I will also uh remind everybody that um these trees are now flagged in the field so I encourage everybody to go look and you'll see which ones are actually now identified and proposed for removal which ones stay and the ones that don't have any Mark I suppose are the the ones that are are to be determined in the field um and I know we've had some concerns about that and I and I know we've talked um we've referenced the concept cept of having a monitor on site when this is underway so that the monitor can report an independent monitor can report back to us what the engineer uh is doing um in terms of identifying which trees have not been identified for removal so that will that will go forward can can you go back to your numbers for a second please I just want to make sure that uh so study area one I have uh uh 29 trees identified for removal is that so I don't know why it says 17 trees present the table in the report has uh flagged for exceeding nine pitch Pines eight Red Oaks two White Oaks and then um others that are larger for a total of 29 trees flagged for removal in study area one yeah we flag um yep all together plus two 29 in study Area 1 and two in study area 2 for a total of 31 that 31 trees were identified across the whole property okay for removal um so that was a long oh across the whole buffer zone to the cranberry bog not just the study area well now I'm really confused because okay we measured as many trees as we could along that were in the buffer zone at all and that's where the table one in the memo is that was 31 trees were identified as exceeding the maximum allowable height threshold um within the whole buffer zone so then we could measure study area one and two are just a subset so that we could get kind of a you know if they're representative we could do out the area math to get an estimate of total trees right right so a study area that is representative then extrapolate into the entire buffer zone which I thought after you talked about the 31 that were identified that if the totals from study area one are representative of the rest of the cutting area within the buffer zone to the cranberry bog there would be 207 trees to remove 69 to remain in 115 to be determined right yes yes yep that's taking the 17 trees and study area one and extrapolate to get out over the hole cutting area to the buffer zone to the cranberry bog okay can you help me then get clear on the difference between what you're referring to as the 17 trees in study Area 1 and what is in the memo of the 31 trees in exceeding maximum allowable height in table one is that not the study Zone and it's bigger than the study Zone but less than the entire buffer zone so what is that so table one that's all of the trees so our our my field crew went out and they measured as many trees as they could see within all of these red polygons which is the cutting area in the buffer zone to the cranberry bog and the buffer zone to Emory Pond mhm and of all of the trees that they could measure they flagged 31 trees with orange flagging to be removed so if you went out there today you'd find 31 orange flagged trees and so those trees are mostly along the driveway because that's where they could get a good sight line um up here you know where there's open yard so that's 31 total um study area one is just this one yellow box so in this one area there were 17 trees and based on the proportions of those to remove those to keep and those to be determined in the field we did out the math that across this whole region of the the aura to the cranberry bog we estimate that there's the 207 to remove 69 to remain and 115 to be determined in the field okay I'm I'm still not entirely clear and I'm looking around to see if anybody has a look on their face that like they they're clear you have a question on this you measured across the whole red line along the cranberry bog but the study area you only included what's in yellow the study area was just a subset to be able to do some representative math we were asked to go out and measure what we could and they did they measured everything that they could measure which was really limited to you know the edge of the stand of trees um and that's where they flagged y you know the green or the orange or no flagging um you know up in here this area there's no flagging because they couldn't see anything and so to be able to extrapolate um instead of having them okay count up every single tree they couldn't measure we set up these plots study area one and study area two where they actually where they so you have recorded exactly the number to cut keep and determine and then use that to extrapolate out um yeah we I get it I think I'm get I think I'm I'm I'm getting there I have a question go ahead Bob you have a question go ahead how may I ask how are the study areas selected the study areas were um selected one by the cranberry bog um one by Emory pond because we know that they kind of had different densities and then they were selected to go across multiple cutting Heights to try to were they were they select to any extent because the trees were more countable in those areas probably no I don't the so the study areas were selected randomly the study areas were selected where there was safe access given existing conditions on the ground and where they would go lengthwise to Encompass um inner and outer Aura and multiple Heights of C you know if they had been just down here in the 50ft height right that would have skewed it towards fewer trees or if they'd been more targeted in the 35 foot then more trees would be cut so it was um they were identified to go across cutting Heights and have okay all right safe access I have I have a little bit of background in in this sort of analysis and I I'm I'm get do you have a um a guess as to your error rate in terms of your extrapolation from the study zones to the entire project area no we we do not I mean we've been that's why the trees will be recorded when they come down and why we were res you know a little bit hesitant to go out and and proactively flag everything because we can only see the edges okay um and so we can't really control which trees we can measure and which ones we can't um so we don't have an exact error bound and that's why it is a projection of it's it's it's a guess it's a an educated guess in in a sense but it's I would not I guess I'm not interpreting that as as a an extrapolation that has has um it has an unknown certainty to it it has unknown certainty we are not saying 200 trees will be cut down instead of 209 we're just trying to give the commission a a a general idea a general idea because we know you typically have a set number and here where we have the areas we're we're unable to provide that fir but it could be it could be considerably higher could be considerably lower it could be spoton we don't really know though okay precisely all right thank you anybody other questions comments on this part okay um before you move move on to mitigation um I want to just pause here um to note that um the trees in the immediate vicinity and by that I mean 50 ft or so of the Vernal pool were not um uh inventoried and we're not captured in any way um so we've had this conversation before um when we were on site and when we were on site at the top of the depression above the the Vernal pool the trees were very dense and we understood immediately looking at them why it's so problematic to try to count them in that location but since then um many commission members have taken it upon themselves to hike down to the bottom to stand at the edge of the Vernal pool and observe uh the conditions in that depression and that depression has been um estimated and and to be up to about 45 ft below the surrounding surface area and we also noted people there that there were not all that many trees actually down in the immediate vicinity of the pool so that raises the two questions one is um you had said before that all the trees around the Vernal pool were likely going to be removed because they were all in the obstruction zone is that really true for the um I don't know 12 to 15 or so trees that are in the immediate vicinity of the pool um because if you stand on that edge you are looking way up toward the surface where the runway is and none of the trees seem to none that's 45 ft up none of them are that height so we're still grappling with the number of trees coming out around the Vernal pool which we'll get to that assessment in a moment but you can certainly understand why we are so sensitive to that issue we're thankful for the in in information on the cranberry bog area in Emery Pond um but it's the trees around the Vernal pool that really are of major concern wonder if you could speak to those questions yes so when we were in the field and when we've talked about around the Vernal pool that most of the trees are coming out that is limited up by the bike path at the top of the hill not in the depression but up at the top along the bike path the cutting height there the maximum allowable height is the trees can be 10 feet tall so in the outer Aura to the Vernal pool most of the trees will be removed because most of the trees are greater than 10 ft tall right down along the edge of the Vernal pool in the inner Aura the um maximum allowable Heights range from 15 to 20 feet so trees that are greater than 20 fet would tall would be removed right along the depression right along the edge of the fal pool um but shorter trees would remain um the maximum allowable height there is it still includes that 10 foot offset um which is why it may appear that those trees are you know lower than the retain the top of the retaining wall um or the runway and that is accounting for an including that 10 foot offset so that the trees are cut you know hopefully everyone's hope is that they are cut once the shrubs grow back and a dense healthy shrub Community persists and additional cutting efforts aren't needed so there's not additional entry into the Vernal pool area um so that is the real point of the 10 foot difference between the part 77 surface and the maximum allowable height um so so it's still your belief then that virtually all of the trees at the bottom of the depression in the immediate vicinity of the Vernal pool will need to be cut CU they exceed the max than 20 ft tall they would need to be cut is there is there are there some that would not need to be cut I can't answer that as I have not measured those individual trees there's canopy you know that is how we established the cutting areas is anywhere that the canopy is extending above the maximum allowable height using aerial survey um so the aerial survey indicates there is canopy above 20t tall we cannot tell from that aerial survey if there's a 15ft tall tree right on the edge of the Vernal pool and then up the hill a little bit is a 30ft tree with canopy extending we just know that there's canopy in the in that protected Zone and that's why we measure each tree and we cut it and so if there is a shorter tree right on the edge of the Vernal pool that's 10 feet tall or 15 ft tall that tree would be allowed to remain but we don't we have not been able to measure each trunk the height of each trunk to make that treeby tree decision to date well I think that's we understand that as you the further up the the slope you go into the denser gross the growth of trees but in the in the immediate vicinity of the pool there's just not the trees are much sparer it's it's primarily shrub in that area um with a scattering of trees that it it's it struck everybody who looked who stood there and looked at it that those trees could easily be measured and identified whether they are staying or going I you know I can't speak to that specific tree unless I'm standing there with the hypsometer and saying yes I can see the bottom and yes I can see the top unobstructed by is it possible to do is it possible to do that to have somebody go and and measure those trees I have a question have you been there have you been in there didn't yes you have Adrian I think he's asking you yeah yes I have been in there yes I delineated that Vernal pool I have been in there so did you is there a followup or just no okay so we're back to that is it possible to identify the trees in the immediate vicinity that are going to be removed much as was done at the cranberry bog um it is possible to try I cannot confirm that it can be done there's just simp you know especially on the hillside there are limitations to what you can see with the hypsometer so it can it can be tried I do not know what the ratio will be of flag to keep flag to cut and to be determined it's I simply don't okay I don't know that number um so go for it so would you be willing to attempt so that we would have an idea at least down at close sorry close to the Vernal pool whether all of those trees are coming out or some can stay cuz some are across the Vernal pool toward the the airport which to me you could probably use that hpom to measure and some of the it's not as dense down there as why we're curious no I I understand it's not as dense and I'm not trying to be uncooperative I'm trying to consider what is the you know the value of of this effort what is the likelihood of success and what information is it going to provide to the commission um well we won't know this the success until we try and I I think we understand that we don't know the outcome but if we don't try we won't know and so I think what we at least what I'd like and I don't know how everybody else feels so I'm not going to speak for the whole commission but um if any you know if we could get an idea down at the bottom that you know all of them are coming out or some of them aren't going to have to um I think it helps and you hear us keep saying we're you know down at the bottom at the edge of the Vernal pool in very close proximity to the Vernal pool I think we're we're we understand the challenges and the problems As you move up the slope and I I can't honestly give you a bright line and say okay anything within 20 feet of the Vernal pool is what we're really concerned about but I mean you you've got that idea because what we know and what we cons we are we get worried about is the uh the shading that those trees provide so if we can if there's one within five or 10 feet that could be saved it's worth the effort it seems to us to to find out whether it can be and leave it just to give us an idea Janet Adrian I want to from my perspective the report that you sent in that gave us much more spe specificity on the trees that would be removed remain and to be determined in the area that you did study to have that for the Vernal pool is for me even more important because that area is vernal pools are capital V capital P and everything that we do and I think that if we could have some feeling of trees that are going to stay and trees that absolutely have to go it would just give us a sense to be able to make a better decision and have a better SE sense of understanding of what's going to happen down there and we know that you're not going to be able to do what you did probably at the cranberry bog and Emory Pond we just want to get an idea uh AA we're not asking you to say this will extrapolate to you know 200 trees coming out and you know 100 to be determined or whatever like you did at the other end we want to know around the Vernal pool the the perimeter what you know we're trying to get an idea of what it's going to look like after this and you know in order to write our conditions and our findings it would help us with being able to to accurately write some of it I mean we're very very reserved on this this is not something that happen every day where we're getting an applicant that wants to cut trees down in a Vernal pool I mean that's usually that wouldn't even be that's unheard of um so we have to try to do what we can uh you know to get specifics and I think that was an excellent idea to get you did the analysis on those two and the veral pools actually more important uh it's only what two of them the town of chadam um I don't know others to certified yeah um Matt Karen has his hand up he's part of our project team Matt hey there good afternoon I I just wanted to respond to that comment that it's unheard of I just want to remind the commission that there's been tree clearing and vernal pools throughout the Commonwealth uh and most recently we did one in the town of Norton we received the conditions and we recently received a certificate of compliance for the work that was done there so I just want to make sure that that's clear it's not that it's not unheard of it is I want to make sure it's clear what I meant was chadam so I want to make that clear to you I'm talking about chadam perfect okay just want to make sure that we're both on the same page thank you now we are okay all right so you hear us you you know that we're not as we don't we're not interested in in the same exact kind of um analysis we understand that the dense trees toward the top of the slope are are likely all going we looked at them we understood that um we are really only interested in whether or not the ones that are providing shading and are very close to the edge of the Vernal pool all have to be removed or not we can attempt to measure those I think that'd be great that's as attempt as you have noted there's dense shrub growth which does obscure the trunks yes the leaves are popping out so we will we will attempt and report back to the commission on our findings but we it is possible that few can be accurately measured so we will we will make okay so if you could make yeah let Paul know when when you're ready to send somebody out there um I think it might be helpful um if we knew about that and if if we were able to attend so we could watch I Didn't I just think that would be very educational because um the vice chair and I went to the edge of the pool um and just looked around and said I don't see how any of these trees are reaching the obstruction zone They At least appear to be well below it so um it would be very helpful educational for us and elucidating in terms of the finding that we will have to make in order to issue any kind of order of conditions so that would be hugely uh appreciated and important to us and before we go to mitigation still while we're still talking about the Vernal pool I just want to uh make sure everybody knows that we did receive the Vernal pool assessment from Oxo Associates um a copy of that report has been posted on my town Gob so um anybody can can find it and see it it and just to very Briefly summarize what it says it it it it goes through the general characteristics of vernal pools why they receive the highest level of protection in the Commonwealth um partly because they are essential habitat for breeding egg deposition um and development for many amphibians and invertebrates um who uh require vernal pools because in any other body of water that contains fish and critically vernal pools do not those those larae uh and eggs are are are subject to predation by fish so vernal pools are the only places where some of these species can can spawn and can and get their life started um they did find spotted salamanders and fairy shrimp uh in there uh and the spotted salamanders uh rang a couple Bells um so I think that Paul I'm not sure if he's done it yet if not he will do it um quickly um send the report from Oxo over to uh natural heritage uh who issued an earlier letter um to see whether um they can confirm or clarify that letter based on the actual um because there was no actual data at the time that they did this when this Vernal pool was certified there was no onsite data um but now that there is just to make sure that that conclusion that they reach that there's no take um uh is still is confirmed so we will get that done very quickly um in addition the um the report from Oxo uh contains some conditions that they um uh encouraged us to put into any order of conditions most of these we've already talked about and I think we've reached agreement on um one I wanted to get your response to such as hand tools only there are time of year restrictions which I don't know whether it's prob atic he said the active season is December to February I don't know whether I checked that with one of our um mhm Wildlife biologists to because the Way It Was Written I could not tell from the statement if it meant avoid December to February or work in December to February ah um I thought it was you know there was a reasonable reason to read it either way and um so I did confirm it I I ran it by um what did they say a rare species person here and she was saying that based on the spotted salamander's needs it would be work December to February to avoid the rest and that would be aligned with the Cape Cod commission's time of year restriction which was um mid-march through miday um for IM IM immigration into the pond so and what we had talked up before about January or December or January start so that uh ground is frozen leaves are gone and it's before any of the activity and the pool gets going so correct so we think that we we read that one in line with the time of year restriction we are already um committed to okay thank you because that that uh that that rang a bunch of bells here we um they also recommend on-site monitoring which we've talked about and I think we've got agreement on annual surveys and REM monitoring reports the one I wanted to ask you about is they are recommending that the Trunks and the and the stems that are cut be left in place um and um I don't know how you feel but we immediately thought that may that would at least um mitigate against the damage of dragging those things out of there um and if he said that because of the moisture that they would retain when they're in contact with the soil um would be would be beneficial um that sounds okay to us too so do you have a view on that um we are not opposed to leaving those trees there within the 100 ft there are um recommendations within the geir that no trees should be left within 25 ft of the Wetland boundary and that if any trees are left they should be um bucked up into two foot long segments to make brush piles that are no more than four feet tall that being said if the commission wants logs scattered with good ground contact and you want to leave full length Banks Trunks and logs we are we are not opposed to that I just wanted to share with you the guidance that we typically follow okay for these projects we'll check that geir uh recommendation do you know offhand why what the what the basis for that for not leaving logs um I am not I'm not sure off the top of my head what the basis for that is I do know that it is common to leave um some brush piles wild the buffer zone but often the request is to remove the material EXC one second when you say brush we don't mean the branches the brush to me is I think branches and trunk right you're well they make wood you know messy wood piles with the branches and Trunks it says Lea tree stems with within Aura logs what is that and then the commission wants okay we'll we will we will not the branches right we will take that under advisement and we'll figure that out when we get to um conditions uh and what we'll actually end up with but some I suspect some variation not we are not tied to removing the material that's typically the request of the commission if you request logs to stay and brush to remove you we'll okay we'll comply with that we'll we'll look into it a little bit deeper and make sure that we uh land in the right place but mechanized pulling them out is probably something that we don't want to do so right if we could keep keep the Machinery out of that area I think it's all to the good well he that recommendation in Oxo is all hand cut yeah right I just want to make sure that you were also not opposed to that part of their recommendation okay no no we've maintained if the the if you require hand cutting our you know our bid package will require hand cutting by the contractor okay all right I I thought that was a an excellent recommendation on the on the Consultants part I thought it was a a fantastic idea yeah makes total sense all right so now that brings us to once we once we're getting closer to narrowing in on exactly what needs to be compensated for what the actual impact and loss um is going to be um which gets us into the m ation uh question um thank you for um what you sent in in terms of the proposals um I know we've had a we had a couple of back and forths about the concept of making a payment or a donation um in lie of mitigation and while at first blush that seemed um attractive and and feasible uh the more uh people spent time thinking about it the more uh uncomfortable some of us became with that for a l of practical iCal reasons we if we if it goes to another nonprofit We don't really have any control over what they do how they do it how the the funds are expended without setting up some pretty complicated administrative processes which um don't seem to be called for um so that leaves us with with two ideas one is um I know that we we've talked about and you've added to your list um expanding the area of invasive species management beyond the area strictly within our jurisdiction um I can tell you that that generated a lot of interest and support particularly in the areas that are adjacent to the jurisdiction right immediately adjacent if you think about a a buffer strip around the buffer zone um because partly because once those those those trees are going to have their Roots ground and removed so that area is automatically more likely to have invasives move into it because of that so um expanding the management to include an area around there um it it it it does a couple of things IT addresses the the impact directly of the removal of the trees and that's what mitigation is supposed to do it's supposed to be a a way of of lessening the impact and or compensating for it um so I think that that's something that we were very interested in and would like to um put some flesh on that that bone particularly and see what um we can come to agreement on do you have a did you we are open to discussing that we had previously brought that up and um my impression both from from listening to other hearings you know that that were heard before ours in other meetings and from our discussion was that that was not accepted that area was area and trees Were Trees so I just want to confirm before we go down this road that that is yeah ultimately that would be acceptable yes where we get into this question of area versus trees um tends to happen with tree removal in in protected zones and what are you compensating for the entire impacted area or are you compensating for each individual tree or both or how does that work um and I think where we're going to end up here is some combination of trees plus area so um and because of the susceptibility and the likelihood of invasives moving into the protected buffer zones um I think we are supportive of expanding that area um and we can talk about trees in just a moment in terms of planting um because there's another option that uh became available to us or is potentially available to us um so what we would ask for from you then is that if you could identify using the uh plans you have the areas that you would propose to expand the invasive management to whether that's a strip around the jurisdictional area or whatever make you know uh it depends on the topography I guess and it depends on what's there and where it makes the most sense and is the it provides the best protection for the remaining buffer area to not be overrun with invasives that would be something that would be important draw up those those areas um I think that the the airport is interested in pursuing you know more of a like an either this additional invasive species management or some other type of tree mitigation um versus a you know a combination just given that they have um just more administratively with how it gets funded through some through the town and some through federal and state so just being pretty clear on on okay what combination of things so can we talk I I we can certainly um to you know Mark up on the plans where additional area is but can we talk about what this additional tree ation that might be available is because I'm not um and and and it may not so so um it so happens that at next week's town meeting here in chadam there is a proposed bylaw called a tree protection bylaw that will add a new layer of protection to all town-owned trees um it's it's a bit of an open question about whether if it passes it's immediately uh in effect and and but I don't think it would have any impact on plans and ation that have already been filed I don't it's not going to apply retroactively but one feature it does have is it establishes a tree replacement revolving fund so that um when the town pursues projects that require removal or trees that are owned by the town are removed for disease purposes or uh safety purposes or whatever it is that um and and mitigation on site is not an available option that money is placed into the Revol fund to pay for the planting of trees on some other property that got our attention as well because that in that case you are its tree replacement so that goes exact right to the heart of the impact of the project um so we haven't gotten to the point of of thinking about you know how much that would be or how that would work but it it um it was it was in the course of reviewing the warrant for next week's uh town meeting that the idea uh became jumped up so that's the other option um and uh maybe I'll open it up at this point to um views of other commission members because my voice is going and I've said my piece about what they would like to see well I I think I I would prefer to see a combination of this um if if the warrant if the article passes next week uh figuring out something monetarily to put into that fund and also the invasive management um I I just don't feel invasive management is enough given the large number of trees that will be removed and when you say invasive management just so just just for clarity you're talking about invasive management outside of the aura because we we've committed to invasive Management in the aura no I'm talking about as mitigation not the not within the aura correct thank you okay I just find that the mitigation is going to be hard to do um the area is so vast you know to try to manage where you left off the tree their plants that you planted I just don't see that working well that's why the fund right we wouldn't put the there wouldn't be any placing of the trees because that is impossible right um that's why we thought maybe it you know that would come in handy okay over here I agree with Karen I'm not going to repeat but I think the combination approach makes the most sense and utilizing that fund would be a beautiful thing oh it be some seed money as M the fund is established but has no money in it because it's about the trees yeah as long as it passes next week right this is all premised on whether it passes who knows you never know what's going to happen town meeting we've been I've been wrong before well we're not assuming it's just it has come up yeah I I I agree as well a comment the the deficit in terms of the ecological impact of this project I think is it necessitates a multiplicity of response including invasive management and somehow compensating for the trees that are removed through a fund or something like that but but having said that the devil is always in the details as I tend to say and that is that the mitig the invasive management plan that that you come forward with for areas outside of our jurisdiction you know that can be a wide range of of plans so we'll need to see that of course of course y Bob I agree Comin combination of both uh would be nice and if if it's a lot of money then maybe purchase some open space even thank you thank you uh Mary do you give you a chance to weigh in she here she's she's there she's muted oh maybe she's not yeah okay anyway all right when she gets back she will weigh in so um oh she wrote a note I think something came up okay um that's not giving you a whole lot of specificity to work with um but just um something to think about it I do think there'll be some reasonable combination that could because both prongs of those um directly balance out some of the the impacts of this project and so it makes sense from that standpoint um all right if this does not pass next week and there is not a tree mitigation right then we're back then we're back to what we talked about before as well you know plant some trees on other Town property which is a much harder thing to figure out um I think the airport is not opposed to purchasing the trees for for planting on another property but would um seek to partner with the Conservation Commission on identifying sure right what project that would be and on sharing you know if they purchase the trees and or pay for the installation that the Conservation Commission or other volunteer organizations would provide you know monitoring of those those areas um so they they would seek I think to partner with you on that type of project okay definitely all right well we'll know by by Tuesday uh Monday Monday Monday night we'll know so on Tuesday morning we'll know we when you wake up we'll know which way um makes the most sense to pursue because that's a that is that would also work too we'd be happy to work in Partnership to identify Parcels we know that that there are areas where some tree planting um is needed so um that could possibly be worked on um so we'll we'll wait and see on that Janet okay yes um how about um I know there are there are other veral pools in town um certified one there's only two certified but there are other but I mean there are I mean I have one behind my house but uh and a lot of those contain invasive plants um and uh you know if there was uh money available you know how about cleaning those areas up I mean they're they're very um essential to the um ecosystem in in those areas so I like to see uh money put towards because I even even the one behind my house they're invasives the Japanese knotweed that's taking over the U that whole area where the Vernal pool is so I'd like to see some money maybe used to to manage those vernal pools in town thanks that's a good thought um harder to figure out how to do that who's going to do the work who who hires that person who oversees that who does the plan but I I'm I'm on the same page that there are other Vernal pool areas and other deep Wetland depression areas that are terribly invaded M so we'll think about that too depending on how it goes on Monday all right all right um the last thing oh go ahead you were so I'm sorry there you are in your mitigation I don't know what other slides you had we we kind of went off that's those were our topics the the yep so I can stop sharing actually all right we had one other because I think Paul may have sent you our list of qu I had pulled the Commissioners over the last couple of weeks and asked people to submit any questions that they still had at this point as we move hopefully toward wrapping this up um and what was still outstanding and the one question that um came back is um in order to if we were to write an order of conditions and I'm not saying we are because frankly I have no idea how people are going to vote on this at this point um we do have to make a finding that this project is is legally mandated because it is so um intrusive and impactful in otherwise protected areas I know we've had a lot of conversations about FAA mandates um but I'm wondering if you can point us to or give us a documents a document that evidences that mandate that shows that the airport is under a legal requirement to remove trees in the obstruction Zone specifically not as a general matter of FAA regulations and they've been out of compliance for decades which they have um but what is it about now that mandates that this project must be done despite the incredible impact it has on the environment is there um I will ask Mark for that specific document I we did provide a document from do saying that they looked at the areas and they certify it needs to be done um yeah other FAA correspondents I would ask Mark to yeah it's it's always been presented as an FAA mandate so all we're asking for is is something that evidences that mandate yes we can provide that to you okay go ahead yeah follow so as a followup to that question I think a question is key in some people's minds is that mandate in response to an elective desire on the part of the airport in other words having to do with their desires that were laid out in the ampo to to bring in uh to implement the new uh technology for for straight in landing I forget the acronym for it so in other words if there is a quote mandate unquote from the FAA or any other entity is it mandatory under all conditions or under under discretionary um goals that the airport has so just to say it is mandate is it mandatory or not mandatory doesn't fully answer the question I think or mandated yeah for example if it's a if it's a requirement of a Grant application for example and not a legal requirement on its own is right we just need to make that finding and no no offense to you know to you guys or anybody on the airport commission but it's making that finding requires that we have some kind of underlying evidence the applicant has the burden of of meeting all the various elements of this so um given the contentiousness of of this project in this town we're not we're not inclined just to take people's word for something we we need to see documents that establish the fact before we can make a finding we can provide you with those documents okay thank you that would be helpful all right so uh I have three things on my list um to wrap up this this last portion um I'm hoping that we get this wrapped up at one more hearing and then our plan is to have a a hearing that prepares we each uh prepares us to go forward with an order of conditions or a denial depending upon where the vote land um and at that final hearing I would have each person um U provide a statement as to whether they um support a order of conditions or a denial so that we can get working on one or the other um but I have here that you will uh try to see what you can do about getting a a number of the trees in the immediate vicinity of the Vernal pool um that are going to have to uh be taken down you will um uh put some some flesh on the bones of a mitigation plan that is um aimed at expanding the invasive management area so that it covers some I'm going to leave it to you in your professional opinion the areas of the um in the buffer zone that are most susceptible to have problems with invasives where maybe they're closeing on the other side where it makes sense and not just like a ribbon of 30 feet around the entire thing which is not necessarily sensible um and then the document um establishing the legal mandate anything else that I no that's great we're we're getting there we're almost there um so we um in terms of scheduling I don't know how long it's going to take you to do to to get those three pieces to us um we have our our next scheduled hearing is the 22nd of May and I got to tell you that agenda is full um it got totally filled up um we have an available date of next Wednesday where there is no hearing scheduled and we have a further date of Wednesday the 29th of May that similarly has no hearing scheduled so there would not be you would not be running into um scheduling problems with a full agenda all these people sitting here today waiting for their straightforward matters wouldn't have to be put through what we keep putting them through um we'd have it just for you guys and just to kind of work our way through these last issues and get to a point where to a decision point which is what we're driving toward by the end of the month so um what are your thoughts on those options um I would suggest the 29th okay I I AG okay um just based on timing and it's going to take a while yeah I know I figured one week is not going to be enough to to do that no especially not if a decision is being made about trees on Monday night um so right we'll get Paul will be in touch with you immediately on Tuesday with that decision okay yeah that's we could probably do it all at one time in one hearing maybe given that there's only three issues and they're not that complex we might be able to resolve those three and then move straight into deliberations and and to the decision boat um yeah 1:00 on the 29th is that this room's available everybody here is available does that work for you you're the only ones we hadn't gotten a hold of um Mark does that yeah the 29th at yep the 29th at 1M works for me okay yep that works for me as well that is great what luck I can't believe it it works for everybody that's un heard of all right we will we will plan that and uh reconvene on the 29th of May um and hopefully uh resolve all of this and be ready to go take a five minute break H we take a five minute break we are absolutely taking a break because I my water water is empty but we need to vote to continue what do we Mike's here oh I'm sorry because um this is what it is there are people in the audience and I'm sure online um who would like to say something um um anybody in the room do you want to say anything Mike he already submitted that's in the record I already put that in okay anybody on the platform no I can't believe it everybody spoke their piece last night everybody's tired from last night I'm glad okay that's great so um let's do a motion to continue this to the 29th I move that we continue Chad chadam municipal airport to the meeting on April 29th 2024 Gordon second roll call vote Bob mise I Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I see you back here on the 29th thank you so much see you then thank you with that we're taking a five minute break we will reconvene at 2:45 it's a 7 minute break e e e e e e e e e e e e e e all right we are back thank you for the break uh Paul are you back we're here just a yes all right we are ready to move on to the next uh notice of intent thank you madam chair next notice from 10 is SE 70 Meadow View Road South Kyle and Patricia lissac map 100 parcel 16 S15 D number se10 3668 the project is proposed addition attached garage and proposed deck reconstruction including mitigation good afternoon good afternoon um for the record that eldrid he Southeast and and also I keep hearing you mention so few vernal pools I count 13 on the maps in ch certified veral pools in chatam there're Al two certified right isn't that would I no no they're certified veral pools no wow well we have two that are didn't know okay good good to know all right we'll come see if that because that's like new information to us but two is all we know of certified okay yeah we need to update our map and you're the guy to help us locations based on nhb so at any rate we're back we were going to be here last week but you had a full agenda so we continued our last meeting and uh then you didn't have a quite so full of an agenda so here we are there were a couple of outstanding questions um a little bit more information about the trees we looked at those in better detail and one more tree should go just because it's awful close to the addition we've added two additional trees to make up for that down in the mitigation area we've added a little bit of notation regarding the lower lawn what has traditionally been used for trailer parking and just minor uses sometimes the association docks have been stored here the boat that everybody has seen down there that was on a neighboring property but the applicant would like to store his boat down here during construction but otherwise he has no plans to store it there long term just when he needs the space up above we've provided the um the final area calculations and just to share there was one minor change in the plan there was a porch that was filled in in the front yard and if there are questions I'm happy answer them I'm sorry can you repeat that but there's a what in the front yard P Port there was a little I thought you said horse was there was a little a porch and a porch that was added so the the front of the building is now a a straight face instead of um kicking in a little bit so the building coverage did increase the overall coverage did not increase because it was going to be patio area anyhow the area calculations come up with a 1940 required mitigation we're providing over 2,000 square ft with the 1:1 and 2:1 for the for the tree replacement okay any questions all right uh questions while I'm writing all this down sorry we he lease okay I don't have any at this moment Okie do I have a few did we ever that talk about the percentage of the outer r that is that will be covered because I don't have that in my notes and when I look at the site map it looks like it could be over our over our new figure from a year ago IM man missed that one let's see here we have 26.7 plus 12 2 plus 1.5 so we're at 40% missed that what's our number variance 35 yeah so yeah 40% okay good so that would normally call for a a discussion for variance because the number that that we have now is 35% so it's good to get that straight Yeah okay or you could shrink it to below or or you save yourself the trouble of going for a variance the second question is do we are we still with two rent stations on this property yes we had two rent stations to begin with one that was after the fact um they would like to have a rent station closer to the path so we've relocated that to be beside the HVAC and that's going to be in the 50 to 100 all do you see it because I'm over here it's here this one yeah station the new one right and then there's one over on this side one right here and why why are which so the one on the wet on the left on the I guess it's the western side is the existing the preex existing or existing I no the pre-existing we've taken off the plans and hang on I'll oh they're both propos screen okay all right and they're both in the outer all righty so there is an existing Rin station that's down here uh that will be removed and then we have a proposed rent station next to One Edition and then another proposed rent station that's on the other side they come up from the boat and they want to be able to go to a rent station they come in from the beach and they want to be able to go to a rent station so it's inconvenient the way that the site is configured for them to be able to have one rent station for all their purposes okay um well I'll just go on record as saying I we've done we have turned down applic uh projects were there were two proposed R stations I I had the same attitude about it now the third question I had was in has to do with the mitigation area down below down in the parking area yes you have now nine oak trees proposed there I think and if that is true and then you have a lot of you have a lot of shrubs underneath those oak trees but I'm going to defer to my uh colleagues on the far left hip here to tell to um opine as to whether or not anything after a period of time will be able to live under nine oak trees seems to me that' be very dense shade under there and anyway that's that was the thought that occurred to me those are my questions okay and I'll look down now I will say for the mitigation we are are mimicking the heavily wooded Conservation Area that's located to the South where we have the arrow wood and the high Bush blueberry and all the other plants um the oak trees of course are going to be a little smaller as they go in and then as they grow just everything will naturalize out if they're not happy they won't survive and if they're happy then we're all happy well if they don't I guess from your perspective it's still the same area of mitigation right okay but it's but it doesn't we proposed fewer plants now it wouldn't be as full and if the oak trees as they grow if they take over the area then it's going to naturalize the way that to to a balance that it should be uh in theory I don't know in practice how it turn out but all I know is that the is to say that only the oak trees live or or predominantly the oak trees that the the intended diversity of the pl of the mitigation area would not be achieved so anyway I I'll let others opine on that all right thanks Bob you guys have a view about those the location of those oak trees and the other mitigation plans I have a question on the mitigation uh dad um on the mitigation it's kind of odd on the mitigation to me um on the west side of the property uh normally wouldn't you see the mitigation at the top of the bank um kind of joining close to the other part of the mitigation um to be in top of bank and on the west side of the house like that oh are they trying to get lawn space or are they trying to get lawn space is that the idea I mean it's it's a pretty much a pretty steep hill you're not going to play croquet there um but you would think the mitigation would be pulled South so it would be on the top of the bank um so the mitigation area that we're proposing is down below so that those have nothing those have nothing to do with mitigation next to the house this is it oh so hous planting existing oh okay see I'm sorry I was I was that's okay on the bottom below that go down further yeah this is the mitigation for job okay all right I got you y that's it but but what about my question Oh you mean as far as the Oaks um nine Oaks and and all those plants do you do you idea I mean do you have to put the Oaks in well well if you don't if you don't want the other plants to die I mean you got to make a choice right that's my question so you think it's one or the other yeah I would be one or the other either have a low a low uh uh plant Community or or have a tree Community um yeah the plants will die under the tree over time um I don't know if we'll live to see it but um they will so either have a lower plant Community or have a few trees and the plants underneath the D of shade after a while yes what about what about naturalized Woodlands that have a mixture of of canopy trees and usually they're under uh pine trees um because Pines let fil they'll let Sun filter through unlik Oaks which are much denser yes but I I would see if there were let's say just two oak trees there there's some chance that on the edges Shrubbery would the the the shrubs would live on the edges nine oak trees this is not going to happen is isn't that rip up in time yeah uh well I I was going to comment on that um area of mitigation down on the lower field it's kind of like a forgotten child MH uh because it's uh it's down there and after 3 years or what have you I think I don't know if it's ever going to be maintained after that um and I was wondering if you had any other areas where you could maybe spread the wealth and and move some of those plants out of there and and plant some other areas that and it makes the most sense to go after the field why is that that's in as close to the resource areas we're within the buffer to salt marsh we're in the flood plane subject Coastal slage I mean from your regulations we should really be looking as close to the resource area naturalizing it first this is also adjacent to the the town of chadam the farm that we purchased that is all Woodland we can certainly thin out the the shrubs that are going in Bob what was your opinion on nine Oaks going well yeah I mean if some of those lower plants are are shade tolerant I'd have to go through the list but um they I mean they may grow underneath some of them may grow underneath those uh those shade trees those Oaks but I'm not sure no yeah I I in in nothing's going to survive out the Oaks uh in in know after a while but they'll survive for a while oh and the O that are as you and as you said that I I do agree in a way it if after the Oaks are mature then things will go natural as it was intended to go natural you could look at it that way also so I mean I know we like Oaks and I'm wondering if we can bring some of those Oaks maybe in some other PL to to other places well I don't think they want to obstruct the view or you know ding ding ding well the the I guess the problem you have that or your applicant is that you're removing X number of trees you've got a you've got we have a tree replacement ratio and that's the only place you can put them but it doesn't seem to be an effective place to pack them in like that it does it's not a design mitigation area it is a let's put let's put all the trees there mitigation well we can certainly open that up a little bit and increase the square footage and push the the shrubs out so they have more light and then or how how about if you brought some of the shrubs up above on top of bank they do have some certainly bring that up to my client but uh you know that I'm thinking that they want to maintain the lawn that exists there right well you know it's a lot of area between the 50 and the 100 but we're in the zero here I mean we're in the the resource area where we're proposing the mitigation if we want to remove a tree here we'd be looking at 3: one if we want to remove a tree in the 50 0 to 50 we're looking at 2 to one so obviously there's a higher value right where we're placing the mitigation why why was why are those areas with plantings the the foundation plants why are why are those not mitigation areas able to maintain those over time so we specifically called them as landscape areas even though they are all native plants and we have native ferns blueberries it's but is okay but but there's no technical reason why that could not be um demarcated as mitigation area just like the area down below and if they were considered as mitigation then they couldn't prune them in the future so if their view starts getting cut off by high Bush blueberry I mean they'd want to plant something else there so it wouldn't block The View well there there are low growing native plants absolutely but they wanted to put some high bush in there but then be able to maintain them as Landscaping rather than things like that okay well not naturalizing I guess you've got a problem then um I guess you can just go back and see what the options are but I I don't I don't see that mitigation area down below as as um uh it doesn't provide the it I just don't think of it as mitigation I think it's sort of a it'll eventually be a little tree farm uh I mean this plan does not show we everything around here is already Woodland well that may be true but we're we're we're just talking about what's inside this property you Gotan all the way around here is already Woods that on top of the bank you got one inch one inch equals 20 fet I mean you could put a lot of mitigation even 10 ft on top of Bank uh on the other side of this the entrance of the stairway going down and use up a lot of mitigation there just 10 ft and then wrap up to your planting on the west side of the foundation you can get rid of a lot of the mitigation plant from below and it wouldn't hurt their it wouldn't I don't think it would matter I find it amazing that if we were trying to develop what's below we would have so much opposition from you and now you're telling me that you'd rather have lesser mitigation no it's about the about nine trees it's just that it's overly concentrated in one small area so that that they're likely to be high mortality rate over time which defeats the purpose so all we're looking for are ways to maybe spread that out and thin that out a bit not lose the plants but put them spread them a bit more so that they're not and I think that my client would be more inclined to increase the mitigation area below okay by pulling some of these plants out and taking you can no spread those out in that area B more would be be perfectly fine because you've got to remember there there is a there's a regulation that says that the mitigation area must be maintained in perpetuity and so by maintain that means that the plant should buy it it should both naturalize and be maintained yeah so if if everything underneath the trees dies is that maintained I I don't see it as maintained yeah oak trees are the worst hogging out sunlight uh hogging the sunlight to the ground so ironically and I see Teresa sitting in the audience and I'm always I'm always complaining about the number of Shad bushes that she puts in but this is actually a place where maybe Shad bushes might be appropriate because they don't they don't shade what's underneath them as much she got a little worried this is the one case I got another question Jan certainly had a couple of yeah that would help um sad uh at the end of the shell [Music] Drive uh to the uh East most portion of it there's I think there's an oak right on the edge there and you want to remove it you know which one I'm talking about one pine tree that we have one Pine yeah I saw that yes now does it and we're going to put a curbing in can you reduce that driveway so it doesn't impact that tree can you stop that driveway like 5 feet or so 4 feet before that tree I mean it's a terrible driveway to begin with the the garage facing out to the side and and coming around is going to be a difficult it's going to be easy for a Smart car but for a an SUV that'll be a a tough turn but I can certainly bring that up to the client and if he's willing to reduce that further okay to save one PR out of a number of pine trees that we are saving yeah well any any tree that you can save would be uh a help and and the other thing I I saw out there was uh by the generator and and the retaining wall on that end over there um yes looks like you're going to have to cut back and remove some trees in there it did it seemed like it was very very tight in there where those would be installed well look at that again that's all I had thank I'm sorry about I was writing the last thing down what was that last one so I don't the the generator and uh the retaining wall um we up against some trees I think some more more trees will have to be removed we always run into that difficulty with generators where they have to meet the setback it limits the locations that those can go okay and where did we leave off with the 40 the 35 5% what did we agree on on that he's at 40% at the moment so he either has to reduce 5% or submit a variance so that leads into what I was going to bring up one of the two things and you have an awful lot of driveway because you've added this whole driveway in front of the house I mean and what if you didn't do that great big circle then you might be under your 40 um so only this part of the circle is within jurisdiction right yeah it's much even if we took that out it it wouldn't yeah it wouldn't bring us under 40 terribly I mean that would be true it wouldn't bring us to 35 shoot okay but still I'd like to address the driveway and I know it's not a lot in our jurisdiction but it just seems excessive and I mean with the big bump out which if you pulled that in a little bit and I know why they needed to go out so they can get in the garage but if you pulled that back a bit and you didn't do quite so much Circle and maybe the circle wasn't in our jurisdiction then maybe you'd get down at least closer to 35 okay um and then my other thing is I really don't support two Rin stations and if they want to have the one that's right near the HVAC and I understand why because it's near to the steps and everything then why can't they get rid of the other that's at the proposed addition I don't see you've explained why they need the one closer you know that you've moved back but it's closer to the steps but it seems if you have that why do you need another one okay those are my things in case your feet gets Sandy running from one to the next well going through the the house through that sand in the house anything else so we know you uh you have uh zba not until the end of June correct correct so you have some time so I've written down five things um reduce the number of Oaks replace some with shad Bush spread out the plantings whatever you do needs to be done to to reduce the uh the tightness of that planting plan there um try to reduce the driveway to to save that one tree which would allow you to lose one of the other trees just pointing that out um the generator in the retaining wall Karen what was the um it was but um it was I think Bob thinks that some trees will need to come out possibly because of the location take a look at that yeah um decide on you need to submit a variance if you're going to be over 35% and uh drop that excess excess uh Rin station on the far side that isn't next to any walkway or anything what it's worth we have requested a variance already because work is going on within the 50 so at least we we're partway there only oh yeah do see that part of that yep um we'll just have to reference the uh well but it's it's a slightly different analysis and and Alternatives of size and scope rather than location so um we can continue this we talked about June 5th right which is uh actually the next available date believe it or not and then we'll check in with you we'll go through that list and then um we'll hold off and wait until after zva before finalizing absolutely in order all right we have a motion to continue to June 5th I move that we continue 70 Meadow View Road South to the meeting on June 5th Gordon second roll call vote Bob leise I Karen I Eric hi Mary I and I vote I all right see you back here then thank you all right Paul what who's next next on the agenda is 46 Shore Road 46 Shore Road LLC map 16f parcel A7 D number se10 3678 the project is a proposed elevated staircase over Coastal Bank to a beach hello hello good afternoon everyone good afternoon uh I've just run through my supply of noos though so we got to finish [Music] up so this is uh staircase over a bank we were here a couple of weeks ago we've done a redesign on the staircase if somebody put this design up on do you have a sorry or Susan who wants to one of you whoever gets there first Bob can do it that'd be great plan package rby plan package there it is no it's revised Bland package this one and then there's a I I'm not on the platform and then there's a large yeah then there's the mitigation the sheet after the site plan is the mitigation yeah this one um May 1 revised a new steer plan yeah it's on revised conservation package there you got updated got it that's it all right okay we got there all right so so uh the last time we were here uh the principal concern about the staircase was the fact that it finished uh well out from the tow of the bank uh so we've we have a redesign of it that brings it so it finishes at the tow of the bank and the bottom section will be uh removable or or be capable of being lifted up in the event of a storm event and the rest of the show belongs to Teresa except that I think they also is this the one they removed the horizontal Landings no no that's another one is that that's 500 there are so many stairways this is what our theme this week is so um well I but it did catch my attention you've got a run of 86 ft well that's it you know so you need someplace to rest well but is that feasible what you showing there of 886 ft run with no Landing in there well there's there's a landing with the little two x's are no those are trees coming out I know that's I know the exra for trees coming out oh no the 86 ft I measured after that yeah oh I know that's the bottom just saying that you know well I'm not I'm not walking up those stairs so I'm not going to be living there either so it's time to hand it over to Teresa now just say there's a 4x4 Landing but um there's a note saying there's a 4x4 Landing about halfway down that step um we took the design for the stairs directly from the engineer I see pointing right there so even though it looks like a step there's a 4x4 44 Landing got okay yes oh this little one yeah and I mean we took our plan is showing the stairs as designed by the engineer we took their CAD file and dropped it into our plan so it should be reading the same as the engineer hear in plan including the notes yep grateful to see them both combined thank you for that makes it much better yes so I think at the last um hearing two questions came up one was asking us to include what had been previously approved as mitigation restoration at the top of the Coastal Bank um for the house reconstruction so we've added that shaded it in a slightly different color so that you can see how the two blend together um I did also go out and locate two trees that will need to be removed based on the center line of the stairway one is a Pitch Pine and one is a scrub Oak um and those have been flagged in the field marked approximate locations on the plan um for the commission's consideration um the other question it was asked was regarding the invasive um white popler um on the bank so I did go out and flag those white popler as well um I flagged 15 trees and I'm calling them trees but they between 3 in and 5 inch diameter breast height so they are very small trees um but because they're over 3 in and 3 in and less is considered a sapling 3 inch above is considered a tree I flagged them um they're mainly clustered in the South um on the southern Corner the Southwest portion of the area shown in green um there are a few scattered in other locations um but but the 15 the main the 15 that I flagged are mainly in that southern Corner um and so what we have done is added some more amalen here in there also known as service Berry which are trees um and there are two uh existing located on the bank but in addition to that I flagged 23 I did not flag I counted 23 oak trees most of them are in a multi- stem form it is clear that the trees on this bank had been cut previously and I know the owners that had been there prior to the current owners had been planting more trees to provide screening um spruce trees in particular at some point in time over the decades these trees had been flush cut they're multi- stem Oak multi stem Cherry 23 Oaks most of them multi- stem there are a couple of single stem canopy siiz oak trees and then um several um scrub Oak which kind of grow in that more of a shrubby form um but the rest of them have are copass and multi stemmed five cherry trees that are also um clusters they're multi- stem trees so they've clearly been flush cut at some point um for Pitch Pine mainly located on the Northern Corner um that's outside of the for Pitch Pine in addition to the one that I um flagged that will have to be removed for the stairway and two um amalen here Clump form of um of service Berry so there's a significant number of existing there's far more native trees located on the bank than the 15 White poppers 3 to 5 in diameter white poppers and in addition to that we're proposing um six additional service Berry and four additional scrub Oak um on the bank as well as the American hazelnut The Beach Plum the fragrance sumac and the Northern Bay Berry um so I think what we're providing on the bank um by way of um Native vegetation again the only there there was a little bit of shrub honeysuckle in that southern Corner very little Vine material there's a significant cluster of bay bear and Beach Plum shown in the darker green um on our plan once you get down to that portion the bank drops very steeply so it's very difficult to access that Bayberry Beach Plum area um from the top there is a little bit of a gully on the southern side between this property and the property just to the South um and that's where that white popler has been is located and then clearly the trees in the to the property on the South have been pruned in the past as well for Vista management um so it gets a little bit more invaded in that area where there's clearly been more dist disturbance on the southern side I mean we're really planting that very heavily with um Bayberry Beach Plum amalan here and scrub Oak um in that area but to the north of that it's a really healthy um plant Community um I did note um the uh did go out and count the stumps and if you go out to the site you'll see that we actually numbered them and lettered them um in the areas where we did the previous management um there uh the white pop trees that we counted in the stumps that we counted are the same diameter as what we're seeing so in that 3in diameter range most of the stumps are smaller than my foot and I have some photographs of my of my foot next to the stumps um there are a couple of larger um stumps of Oak that were multi- stemmed and they're completely rotted out so if you look at the stumps you'll notice that they're slightly larger but there's it's completely rotted and that's because of the poor connections from the previous cutting they grow back they regenerate the connections aren't um healthy water gets in sits in them and it just sits and rots them um so those were removed um so we noted um two rotted um two rotted Oak stumps that were cut and then um we counted three Cherry stumps and two of those were completely rotted and one was less than um 3 in diameter so the rest were the white popler that were the invasive there is a number of suckering white popper in there so they're like whip size just coming up and suckering that we're going to be um managing and treating um but the entire area is going to be completely restored um so I think having the um previous mitigation shows the commission that from the edge of the lawn down to the bottom of the Coastal Bank will be fully vegetated thank you um so all of that that you just ran through in terms of uh the native trees that are still on the bank are um are are they invent somewhere is there a listing I just I literally just went out and inventoried them yesterday I can give you a count and then inventory a separate sheet of that great thank you say I don't see them and they're all remaining or is that they're all remaining okay yes all of the Native vegitation with the exception of the two that we flagged and that we're showing with the redex for the stair construction are remaining intact okay yes yes okay questions I'm I'm go ahead confused about something and let me let me I um I'm looking at your um plant list your planning schedule for this new plan M well first of all yeah so it shows six service Berry um are they are are service Barry understory trees can I get you to can I get you to yes I would call them an understory tree I would agree 100% yes that does that mean that they can replace an over story tree well I would say that they play very well with canopy trees like Oak um Pitch Pines that you'll find and actually this is a fabulous time of year to see them because they're blooming and while nothing else is leaf out and you drive around and you can see they're very pretty they're beautiful and but they're they're very easy to see because once they're done flowering they sort of disappear into the rest of the canopy um but you see them in thick Oak pitch they they play great with overstory trees yes I'm just well my question is can we consider consider them to be a one for one replacement with an overstory tree as far as the wildlife depends on your point of view well I'm I'm I would say regarding I would say regarding wildlife habitat value they're providing they provide a significant amount of wildlife habitat value are they going to provide the same kind of wildlife habitat value as an oak tree where maybe you're going to get perching Osprey or especially on a Coastal Bank situation or Hawks Hawks and Osprey are not going to perch in amalink ear that is 100% true so that will not happen um but they do do they provide habitat equal habitat I think so oh equal okay I think I think they provide a significant root system I think they just provide a different form of habitat I heard I heard a chuckle down at the other end so I'll let them take handle that one would I say we should cut down all the oak trees and plant only amalan here never I would never say that good so anyway you you you but that's the side topic for what I'm actually trying get out here and that is you have you're saying you're planning T trees I went back and and and that is um so this is a combined plan you're planting tin trees but with the previous plan which I'll bring up the um planting schedule for that I just want to make sure I understand what you're presenting I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the plan but in that plan you see that I you were planting 10 service Berry mhm three pitch Pines three pitch Pines and two Oaks so but was was that plan only for the trees being removed on the on the upper part that's correct yes that's a completely separate separate notice of intent right but so I guess my point is that just looking at this plan I wouldn't know that I wouldn't know that that these plants in this planting schedule are nothing to do with the plants that you're identifying as trees that you're identifying as being removed in this combined plant so it's a little confusing so I think the reason that we shaded it in pink is because the area that's already under um management and has been approved is a completely separate noi so we didn't include a plant schedule we just it's just visually so you could see how the two come together right so I would I would suggest just note noting the planning schedule say these only refer to the lower area whatever however you want to phrase it because if this becomes a plan of record someone might look at it and say oh they for this entire mitigation area they're only planting these trees okay it's noted it's noted it's put noted it maybe you should add the SC yeah add the SE number to that okay we can do that sure because they'll be done under two different certificates of compliance yes okay yeah we can add that se number along with the plan note that shows the planting imation plan thank you yeah uh all right okay if I go ahead piggy back on that um you say there are uh 10 native trees in various sizes and then 142 na native shrubs and wild flowers but there's actually 141 why did you you removed one Northern Bay Berry and you made it 33 instead of 34 so I don't know sounds like we removed one Bayberry and didn't make up for and didn't make the change on the plan note I didn't know which was the correct no the correct is what's showing in the planting schedule okay so it seems that maybe there was just an update in the plan note that didn't get made okay or didn't carry over all right thank you yep the question I had on on the uh s gallon uh what's the size don't they give you a size is a two to three 3 to four it's usually 3 to four for a 7 gallon size um and the other part of this is if you've been out there it is very Steep and so planted right you can't Dr yeah we can't get b&bs down there yeah cool that's all I have um uh on the removable section um that's going to be stored where you know off season I the current plan is is is uh it'll be slightly narrower than the rest of the staircase it'll it'll either be hinged up so it's laying against the upper stairs or pulled up into the upper stairs so it's going to be some somewhat temporarily attached to the staircase then right it'll be it'll it's going to rest on the staircase whether it's on a hinge or whether we pull it up and fasten it there okay and uh uh Teresa underneath the stairs I always ask this question but that's going to be blanketed with seed as well correct yes okay yes okay um as far as removal on this site uh on this portion of the bank I don't think we're going to need to blanket the rest of the bank because the can the the canopy trees are still intact um obviously any disturbance that gets made and I'm not sure what kind of posts are being proposed for the um installation of the stairs but it should be minimal um amount of excavation or anything that's going to happen in this area trees should be flush cut stumps remained in place winch them out and then um the um footings whether they're helical or Diamond pairs um should be able to be installed and then no other disturbance in the area well the uh the construction plan of the uh shows uh that they'll be driven 10 10 ft into the ground I mean I don't know know that they're helical that's all they're helical helical are being composed so yes so that should that should be minimal disturbance required for the stair installation okay thank you okay anything else nobody nobody opined about does a under story tree replace an overstory Tree Guys well not depends on the kind of story they're telling it does depend doesn't it on the conditions what is the maximum height on a service Berry uh 20 to 25 ft the ones that are out there are probably 15 ft um you know in an exposed site like this on the Northern side it's really interesting because if you're out there looking on the Northern side of the property there's a beautiful stand of Pitch Pine mixed with amalan here but it's right in front of turn Island so I don't know if it's a little more protected from the wind right I I think that that would be a good choice because of the wind right um yeah yep there's one um canopy size Oak Tree on the property just to the South and it is in it's really beat up it's it's probably not long for this planet um but it's like the one surviving canopy Oak Tree on this bank that's that's truly what I would call a canopy tree meaning it's you know over 25 feet tall surprised it got that far I am surprised it got that far as well and it it appears to be it appears to have you know it's showing its age and its exposure like probably all of us all right so do we need anybody need anything else the only thing I have here is that you'll send us the uh yes I'll send you a separate sheet with the yes I have my little otherwise we're ready to go um you have zbaa on the 30th that's correct so we'll schedule this for the order on June 5th and we'll watch to make sure that there's no nothing changing that's coming out of zv right shouldn't be thank you very much all right okay thanks all right motion yeah was that I don't know did somebody online want to say something all right I move that we continue 4 86 Shore Road to the meeting on June 5th for an order of conditions Gordon second roll call vote Bob Elise Karen I Eric I Mary I and I vote I will'll see you back here June 5th you thank you thanks all right thanks everybody all right Paul what's next okay thank you madam chair next on the agenda is uh 30 Sears Point Lane mlay family property LLC map 11 A1 parcel 6-4 the EP number SC10 3677 the project is proposed Waterfront maintenance the applicant has requested a continuance till May 22nd 20 24 I move that we continue 30 sear Point Lane to the meeting on May 22nd 2024 Gordon second uh roll call vote Bob Elise hi Karen hi Eric hi Mary I I vote I all right all right Paul next on the agenda 26 Salon Road 26 Pawn Road LLC map 177 J parcel 9-1 the EP number C 10 3675 extension of an existing Stone revetment applicants requested continuance till May 22nd 2024 I move that we continue 26 Salt Pond Road to the meeting on May 22nd 2024 Gordon second uh roll call vote Bob hi Elise hi Karen hi Eric hi Mary hi and I vote I that one's also continued all right Paul can we continue everything 98 o this this is going really well yes I can read really fast 98 oon Fong Steven A and Haley G nadas map 13e parcel 29 111-a D number SC10 3682 project construction of a Shore access catwalk good afternoon good afternoon I am Bob Perry with Cod engineering representing the natives family there actually two native families here 98 and 100 and this is the 98 oyster Pond furong um probably mention 100 as we go into this and um I did bring a plan I so I can refer to it so if you've been there um we have the I guess I would call it the easternmost house which has an inground set of steps that approaches from the lawn area to the top of the Coastal Bank begins to go down that it encounters the defined top of the Coastal Bank and it continues on down where it finds a slightly gentler sloped area it's fairly well established I don't have a date on it but those are inground steps they appear stable there's a plank bulkhead down there that must have been installed 30 or something years ago it's working but it's in relatively poor condition but again I don't have a date on it it's apparent from my site visits and speaking with the owners that they've been using this Pathway to get to the oyster Pond and there's a for lack of a better word a Moby mat that was laid down in the salt marsh and I don't think it's been removed um they called us up and they were looking to seek a better way to get access for small time recreational access to the pond which would probably take the form of kayaks clamming when I was there last putting the stakes in there was some shellfishing going on there pretty vigorous excavation just see rid of the salt marsh and one of the things about this proposal is that I was engaged with both 100 and and 98 and this father son families and the question came two catwalks one catwalk and it's my understanding that the families will use this so there won't be a proposal at 100 and yet those stairs are still there and they're functional and I don't see them coming out and it's not that 100 is not part of this application so what's being proposed is an elevated open frame catwalk which I think is something that I at one point I found some regulations or guidelines of yours that I read I don't have them with me but I believe we're consistent with those there are other guidelines related to elevation above salt marsh where we try to be one and a half times the width we're falling a little bit short on that next to the wall but we don't go very far out before we're meeting that it's a 30t length um from just landward of the uh wood wall and out at the end because it's lightweight very easy to manage although I haven't there's one one of these facilities lies to our West and it's got a wood stairway but we're proposing an aluminum open frame tubular stairway which would be an equivalent to a wood stairway these are fairly common uh con uh construction items there's different ways to frame them I've seen seasonal docks all through Pleasant Bay and Harwich and Orleans and chadam so the framework of this is very similar to what you'd see for a seasonal dock just doesn't have a ramp and a float um I've always over my years been a little bit astounded that some seasonal docks and there's a lot of them they often just jet these pilings in and out every year and I've explored different ways of not doing that and so what's proposed here are helical screw anchors that would support um fabricated boxes that would receive the posts just at the mudline or slightly below so that each year or twice a year let's say just for the install the crew comes and Carries these bents into position they just take a teaspoon or a TR and they clear out the box they set the post in pin it and then the brace bents are functionally stable and so you don't jet the salt marsh time and time and time again and the the occupation I I think I calculated at less than a less than a square foot I have the number in the write up but if if this do is installed routinely it's pretty quick so I don't see a lot of damage occurring to the salt marsh as a result of the yearly twice yearly activity that would install it and remove it um everything can be hand carried into place and that's how we see it working so there's not much to say except that it is a seasonal structure we know it needs a special permit we are just getting past the high tide line here there has been flood tides in the oyster Pond and Stage Harbor that are related to the barrier Beach changes off of uh out in the monoy area there's a lot more water getting in here lately but as far as the numbers go we are proposing something the stairway just SE of the high tide line the average high tide and so we know we're headed to the board of appeals for a special permit quite sure and we've spoken to our present attorney Lichfield about has uh preparing that application okay so we know we're going there and we're in process okay so that's the summary of this happy to take your questions all right thank you very much um to be filed and and so aluminum stairs and they're seasonal the whole is the whole thing the whole thing is seasonal so what is the material of the of the decking itself the the structure um depending upon restrictions this is the kind of lumber size that would be basically store bought so it would likely be an acq which is you know fur or yellow pine that's treated with not it's not CCA but it is a treatment um it is possible to use hardwood green hard bents piling pairs they're he heavier but they can that can be done on the on the support pieces that go in yes if that's the part that's coming into contact with the with the water way yes um the upper decking and the is it one hand rail or to I think it would be two but there's options for people it's narrow um it might make more sense if somebody elects for one because if you're carrying something it might just hang over a little bit but you do get a little bit more width with one handrail but I probably designed the cross-section with two leaving it as an option there is a profile and a detail on there somewhere okay natural wood all right um we need to so we need to run this by a number of different entities here we have to talk to um South Coastal shellfish advisory uh Ted and Renee all have to weigh in um that engage that is just beginning that process but since uh you haven't yet filed we we're good on time get all that done right I the timing of that I I honestly did not consult with anyone about whether you see it first and then advisory but I think we're going to prepare that and and get into a meeting with them before GBA okay okay all right questions this is interesting this is interesting to me I I've I've never seen anything like this yet um it used to be pretty much a a walk a path way yes and we're going to this so yes um I have to see how this plays out with the different entities that we have to talk to um but the aluminum is supposed to be removed right in the winter the whole thing would be yeah the shellfish Warden would be you know yep important to talk to um yep yeah that's all I got oh um the other one that's the other walkway that's that's in the water on the other you can see it it's there today right could that be removed as a mitigation also I mean it's it's well the one that's in the plan the other one we're not proposing to touch that on 100 oyster pun furong I thought you might be referring to the other facility that'ss same owner though yeah I was because it's yeah because it's sitting in the water so it's I don't care okay thank you that's hi Bob how are you great we have the same name you know I'm going to try not to forget that uh there's there's a lot of trash in the marsh oh the rack material clean that what floats in right I've noted some styrofoam as well blue styrofoam y um that wooden wall you call it a wall or bulkhead or whatever you want to call it it's it's coming it's falling out it's separating from the Earth yes is that is that going to be dealt with it could be I did speak with the applicants about adding that to this application and I've had experiences where not that you can't handle it but we just didn't want to put too much at you I saw that the wall is distressed but I don't see a serious erosion problem yet and that should be monitored if we're going to have continual high water in that pond and perhaps storms you could see increased erosion and then I think someone would come to speak with you about taking some repairs to that but not right now because the the wall is about maybe one or two inches away from the from the earth and the posts that hold that wall uh don't look very strong and look like they're well it's still standing yeah it's been there for a long time I always say it stood the test of time but it it's being asked to deal I think this past winter was was you could see rack material is right up over it so that's what caused some more of that distress um I think we we would want to look at that but and they've got no problem with coming back before you to to do some uh whatever would be needed um but to you know propose a new wall in there right now I I told them I did not think that would be necessary okay but this this new structure won't be attached in any way to that wall no it spans it we're starting at about 3 or 4 feet land of it and it would just span it just right over it um you know that also I wanted to add uh you might want to consider the the the yearly trimming to be added uh maybe to this order of conditions so that they have a permit for the trimming on the bank did you see some pruning over there yeah a little bit I I was impressed though the lawn there's no Irrigation in that lawn it could be I know there isn't good top it's amazing yeah uh but maybe you could add in you know to have the permit for yearly trimming so they don't have to look over their shoulder if they're going to trim if it's possible I think we need to bring that to their attention I'd be happy to bring that to their attention just you can't do that no are you talking about trimming the vegetation that's going to encroach on the on the or on the catwalk or that's going trimming for the height yeah the trimming along the bank yeah oh a separ you can't add that in as a in a notice okay just had a couple of small things uh um the storage in the off seon that's going to be brought up and stored somewhere when they get back by the house they're out of the buffer although I know there's a Riverfront area way back there but all in all it will be way way far away from the bank and uh what about pictures of the marsh before and after no objection we have them now but there're are ways off from construction that's pretty standard be happy to do that okay thank you no B yeah my questions have been addressed except that I know I mean remember in the application that there was mention of kayaks the applicant wanted to use it as a place to Launch kayaks and I'm speculating on that it's just speculation well if if that's going to happen very often we talk about kayak racks yeah if they're going to be otherwise stored in resour they might be lying around on the ground right right okay sometimes they you can put Kayo racks on the well in this case you could have put them on the catwalk but well if if the kind of thing is not objectionable I mean that level it's not level but there is an area there where a couple of posts and some spars would handle two or three kayaks but that and I'll mention that yeah mention it because it's it's inevitable you know if they unless they have a rack they're going to just screw them out and that's not good okay thanks please all right um all right I think that I think we're set u I'm just really happy to see the existing situation removed those planks that are in the marsh and destroying it so uh not normally a great fan of catwalks but in this case I think it's going to be a net Improvement to the it seemed like the use was going to intensify and the marsh is still good so getting something elevated over is not a bad idea then getting getting a kayak rack installed would be good rather than people dragging them through the marsh so if they said yes to that we'd add it to this application put on the plan and show us the details and and review that all righty all right so all right so we all have some work to do we have some Outreach to do you have some Outreach uh you have some consultation with your client I I would think a meeting in August I I'm guessing that we could start with July I just don't okay so first meeting in August that would be can't believe we're wishing a 7th August 7th yep already scheduling for August 7th and we are totally full that day what are the odds so no I'm kidding maybe we'll get a day over 50 degrees who knows um so I I'm fine with that date now thank you okay all right I move that we continue 98 oyster Pond furong to the meeting on August 7th 2024 Gordon second roll call Bob hi leise hi Karen hi Eric hi Mary I and I vote I thank you all see you back here then right thank you all right Paul we have one more one more thank you madam chair uh last on the agenda last on the agenda is 500 Shore Road Heather Butler map 16g parcel 3D a s d p number SC10 3681 proposed project construction of a beach beach access staircase within the pedestrian access easement located at 500 Shore Road good afternoon uh good afternoon uh my name is Don Bracken I'm a professional civil engineer and professional survey with Bracken engineering out of buzzes Bay I'm here representing the applicant Heather Butler also I'm here with TJ hurry uh the attorney from Miss Butler good afternoon good afternoon I GA the most of you are very familiar with this location you just reviewed a project to the south of this so I won't go through any of the details on the site site location um so Ms Butler and four other property owners that um live off of um Aunt Lydia's Lane located across the street on opposite Shore Road where this project is taking place um have uh pedestrian rights along a 10- foot strip along the southern border of number 500 um so what we're proposing here in order to provide uh safe and adequate access utilizing the easement is a uh staircase uh Fe stairs uh run approximately 133 ft long um as you can see from the plan It's a combination of steps and platforms um in order to Traverse the uh changing profile um along that uh easement area um by the way the code does requires a landing every 12 ft so we we have that for every 12T vertical drop um in total there's a 53t vertical drop uh from where the top Landing is locating at the top of the Coastal Bank so the Coastal Bank in this situation as I'm sure you're aware uh adjacent to the beach um has just been restabilized uh with corals and some vegetation uh the uh the remaining Coastal Bank is a is a wooded vegetated Bank uh defined by D as a Coastal Bank where with the uh velocity flood zone intersects the bank um the slope uh exceeds uh the requirements so that basically the way I would look at this is there's two Coastal Banks there's a Coastal Bank that was just rated and then there's a vegetated Coastal Bank um as you can see on the plan um the stairway um let's see hopefully this works yeah so the stairway is on the Eastern portion obviously of the easement and then the remaining portion of the easement um there's a slight uh foot path but today there really is no defined foot path in that area uh we did locate a foot path that runs you know from this point down about halfway where the stairs are proposed and then it sort of Peters out um so there has you know been historically access as you can tell from this foot path going down uh to the Beach area uh the walkway itself um we have a cross-section of that we're proposing 4 feet from the outside edge to the outside edge um of where the post are the the actual walking surface will be 3.4 ft wide um we're also proposing similar to the other project is an aluminum set of stairs um at the last uh Landing to the beach um we we do have a proposed location for the stairway uh when it will be removed seasonally up at the top of the Coastal Bank on this side near this property line so I I was fortunate to be the last one to get some education on working in chadam so I understand we're going to have some homework based on the previous discussions um but that's pretty much it for the initial uh presentation and as you you're probably aware we haven't heard back from natural heritage yet so um obviously we need those comments back I think before the next meeting um and I'd be happy to answer any questions all right thank you um we don't it's it's unusual I'll say to have receive an application from uh an entity that is not the homeowner that has some other right um so we don't have a there is no as far as I'm concerned we don't have an existing requirement that one prove their right to implement their project should we uh choose to permit it um but that said um given what we know from um last week's presentation from the homeowners at 500 Shore Road um they do not believe apparently because they wrote and said and I think that letter was posted that there's a legal right that your pedestrian access is limited to pedestrian access um on your feet and that does not entitle the easement holder to construct a structure we don't know and we do not get involved in private right private property rights disputes um we leave it to the different um easement holder and the property owner to work that out um I don't know whether um that's going to happen in this case whether um there will be some sort of resol solution amicable agreement reached um but I what concerns me and and what I care about at the moment is um as you see we're sitting here at 4:00 the time and the burden on the Conservation Commission and I'm a little bit reluctant to weigh deeply into um spending time assessing an application that at the end of the day may have no hope of actually being implemented um so not knowing um our our consultation at yesterday's prehearing meeting um we landed with we're going to ask Town Council to give us some guidance about whether um we can require you to present some sort of indication that you have the right to do the project before we spend time reviewing the application and then writing in order of conditions and then if this ends up in litig who knows it's just it it it could go any number of ways so we need some guidance CU we we truly are not going to get involved um so um with all of that said um I think um your plan is pretty straightforward um I really don't want to get involved into reviewing it in any detail now um other than to remark it's it's pretty straight it's pretty standard for what these Coastal Bank and these steep long Banks what it would look like with the you know seasonal component at the end um but I would like to continue this until we have a chance to confer with Town Council on on what what we are advised to do and to keep us out of the middle um where we do not we do not have any desire to be clearly understood okay so and you also have to you need zba yes to go have you filed yet with them no okay so you have so we have time this isn't happening this season okay that's that's good news because we have a lot going on on and um so does Town Council um so um we will try our best to get a date in front of him um as soon as possible and um my suggestion would be to continue this to K's not September um June the 12th which is um well it can't go to the 22nd that's not happening and the fifth is full so that takes us to June 12th so you can get your filing done at zba and get a hearing date from then by then and then once we have that and if we get a green light to proceed um we can do that in tandem with whatever date you get from the zoning board does that work you fa with me um Madam chair I was prepared to address the easement issue but if you'd like me to hold off on that for now I can certain let's do it once we get some internal guidance then we can get into it I mean I I looked at the easement I I I get you know I can understand where you would go with that but um until we get guidance about how far into this we should go um um I don't want to waste your time and I don't want to waste these people time so certainly Fair uh regarding Town council's eventual opinion uh would it's a town Bytown basis uh as to uh their opinion uh would that be held by the commission and then released at the next May I'm not going to ask Town Council to aine on whether you have a right I'm asking Town Council to aine on whether we have a right to require evidence of a legal right as a precondition to hearing the application okay that's the question and I will certainly share whatever he produces with you underst no problem with that okay okay all right all right I move that we continue 500 Shore Road to the meeting on June 12th 2020 for Gordon second roll call vote Bob hi Elise hi Karen hi Eric hi Mary hi and I vote I will reconvene on June 12th and uh see where we things stand at that point Thank you for sitting through you know three thank you you know when it's airport day around here it gets to be a problem stinks all right Paul all right Madam chair last on the agenda is a certif certificate of compliance for 307 Bay Road Harry and John hamen map 3B parcel 1-10 se10 3279 demo and rebuild a dwelling is what's on the agenda the project was uh issued September 17 2018 it involved replacement of an existing dwelling a new dwelling outside the 100 foot flood plane uh with portions of a deck and drive Drive within the 50 Foot or to a Coastal Bank some Hardscape aprons retaining wall and a step walkway was built um M Maran has completed um the uh checklist and submitted a uh complete application along with an as built that was done I think just recently um and the only ongoing condition they have listed is um the mitigation area and demarcation fence to are to remain undisturbed in perpetuity um the applicant shall instruct all agents to explain the mitigation and area to the buyers Lees landscapers and all persons taking over property in the future there was one other one which wasn't included by the applicant but it's in the order regarding herbicides we can include that uh other than that um the photos have been submitted inspections been made Engineers certified so we have uh a recommendation to approve this all right um any questions comments I do it's on the corner remember I do was early I have one one question when I went to look at the mitigation planting it looked like there was a good 4ot swath uh behind the uh plants mode um bit for a border I could understand you would need a border but it looked like a 4ot mmore um went went in there behind the behind the plants between you know yeah that's because the mitigation area borders is a lot of invasive yeah so we require them to keep a most strip between the two which doesn't prevent it but at least it it gives you access to watch and see where invasives are starting to come underground and it prevents them from coming overround y that's why that's there they're not the most attractive thing in the world but they help preserve the mitigation come up with yeah but all the plants are doing well they're all coming up good all right I move that we approve the certificate of compliance for 307 bayew Road Gordon second roll call vote Bob hi Elise hi Karen hi Eric hi Mary I and I vote I all right thank you Mr we're all set thank you Paul anything else any be it um I don't have any unforeseen items uh brought before the commission I will just mention briefly though that uh to the chair and uh Vice chair we're looking at an upcoming teams meeting on 97 tipy to discuss construction protocols for that three Monon retaining wall project so just FYI is there a date for that yet no there's not I've been I asked uh I asked Catherine to uh do a doodle get some dates and um get it set up as me as soon as possible with the Harvard Master included okay but it's team so it's virtual it's not okay yeah it's going to be virtual that's easier to do okay then a I move we adourn Gordon second Bob uh hi hi Karen hi Eric Mary hi and I say I all right thank you very much oh and Bob you get to vote on adjournment yeah yeah who cares I all right guys just over the 3our [Music] [Music] [Music]