##VIDEO ID:YDsORJaZurg## e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] I [Music] [Music] [Music] good afternoon this is a hearing of the chadam Conservation Commission being held on October 23rd 2024 in accordance with the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act and the town of chatton wetlands protection bylaw and regulations my name is Karen Laton and I serve as the chair today's hearing is being broadcast on xinity channel 1072 and is being recorded on the OnDemand archives available on the town's website site it's being conducted in person by phone and by video conference the agenda instructions on how to attend and copies of documents for review or post on the town's website to all participants whether attending by phone or online please remain muted unless you've been recognized by the chair when recognized please identify yourself for the record if you're attending by phone you can mute and unmute using star 6 if you're online and you are not a commissioner please keep your camera turned off unless you've been recognized indicate that you wish to speak by using the raised hand feature so that we have a record of a quorum I will now ask each commissioner to indicate their presence Vice chairis Gordon present Janet Williams present Cheryl missery present Eric Hilbert present Paul Johnson present Bob Delio is not here today and I'm here we have established that we have a Corum before we begin are there any announcements about any continuances for today Katherine yes the following applicants have already requested continuations for this week 98 oyster Pond Furlong the applicant has requested a continuance to January 7th 2025 and 217 Woodland way the applicant has requested to continue to November 6 2024 thank you at this point Katherine Ricks chams conservation agent will now lead us through the agenda okay okay starting with the request for an order of conditions at for Harbor View Road map 8A parcel H49 for Roger and Elaine moral D SE number 10- 3699 invasive plant species control and native plant restoration on and adjacent to a Coastal Bank thank you hi Teresa hi good afternoon Teresa spra with blue Flex design here on behalf of elain and Roger moral um I just wanted to review the changes that were made from the previous hearing I was not able to attend that hearing um Mike Tannis from my office was here and just discuss overall I just want to make sure that the goals of the project ultimately are clear um so I guess at the last hearing um the commission requested that some of the cedar sizes be increased and that they be spread out a little bit further um and we've done that um we have increased some of the cedar sizes um to 5 gallon we did spread some around um we're showing some further on the Coastal Bank and we're proposing to plant those at a two gallon size mainly because we want to avoid disturbing the existing pristine area of in the native plant community in that area um I really want to point out that overall this project is about restoration we're doing a significant amount of invasive species management I know a question came up regarding whether or not a variance would be required and we didn't feel a variance would be required in this particular case because invasive species management and the removal of degraded trees would be considered exempt um under your regulations and and as far as the condition of the trees I do want to point out that they are degraded they are diseased they have been pruned for decades these this isn't something that a pruning that just happened over the course of you know a few years pruning has been going on for a significant amount of time that the trees are in the condition that they're currently in and really can't continue to be pruned even if we came forward with a Vista management proposal we would not be able to properly manage these trees in a healthy way so we really felt that coming before you with a plan that restored a healthy native ground cover layer a healthy shrub Community restored some trees within the area and continue to maintain the existing views from the home without any need to go in and further um and and and have any further disturbance within this 50 foot buffer zone was really important so that's really what this project was about and I understand that in the interim time between the time the pool was approved and the commission requested that we bring this project forward and now some changes have happened to the regulation um and the onetoone requirement for tree replacement um is now part of the regulation um but we just wanted to make sure that it's clear clear that we are not proposing to remove trees from this site we're really proposing to remove degraded stumps that have been repeatedly cut and cut and cut and to replace it with a robust shrub layer ground cover layer where none currently exists and um now these additional canopy trees and we are um which which I really do believe long term will better protect the resource area the Coastal Bank in this area is is pristine it's in fantastic shape removing the invasive vegetation now will prevent it from intruding into that area and I think overall is a benefit for the resource area on the site great thank you did you get the order that was written I did I reviewed it I didn't see anything out of the ordinary okay then I think we can go to a motion unless anybody else has any comments or questions for Teresa has changes is all set y I move that we close the hearing on for Harbor View and approve the order of conditions as written second all right Paul I Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I thank you very much all set thank you thank you okay Katherine okay the following is a request for an extension at 0 and 284 Kendrick road map 4 14k parcel 9-7 and 12 C-4 B3 for Tim Reese D SC number 10- 3275 elevation of a home to FEMA compliant foundation and septic plantings and dune restoration project the reason for the request is to allow additional time to nourish the approved Beach Dune if needed to repair erosion from Storm events and to further establish the native grass species to help reduce erosion during said storm events extension number three expires 11 2924 great thank you so this is the last extension that can be given for this just so that if any representatives are listening to this or online um I guess we can go to a motion I move that we approve the final extension for Z and 284 Kendrick road to to 1129 2025 second okay Paul I Janet I Elise hi Eric hi Cheryl hi and I say I okay thank you thank you and we're ready for the next okay the following is a field change request at 70 Meadow View Road South map 10d parcel 16- S15 for Kyle and Patricia lissac D SE number 10 - 3668 proposed addition proposed attached garage and proposed reconstruction of Deck with mitigation field change is requested to allow a walk out basement from the approved basement edition how are you good I'm Jim gronky I'm the contractor at at this site uh when we're Excavating when we actually took down the existing family room uh which had a 4 fo deep uh Foundation uh and then excavated for the full Foundation that's uh on our uh new plan uh it became evident to us that the grade had been raised previously when they put on the former Edition and now uh after the excavation we see that we have access for a nice walk out basement partial walkout basement I should say not the whole back but only about half the foundation we'd have have open to allow access to put a door to get into the storage area of that basement okay um I can't find it do you have that email leas that was about the property I'm not seeing it I will say the walk out is under an exist existing or will be under the approved deck that's already been approved by this commission no the um all right I think one of the things that I had was you haven't really given us I mean you've given us a bunch of photos but it's I was out there and it it I you know of course I can't walk all around because of the construction and um so it was hard to say where this door was going okay I have a new photo that wasn't in your packet because the packet was due to you guys on the eth and I the foundation was done so now I have a new photo if you would like to see it so you have a I'm sorry you have a new photo well an additional photo to what I had and it it's showing it's showing the foundation that was just put in right and we do have photos with the foundation I just wasn't you know sure you know we don't have anything that shows exactly where the door is going maybe it was in here there okay yeah I don't think you have any photos showing the foundation isn't there a site plan from the original there's a site plan but it didn't have that door on yeah right but the EXA all that is underneath the deck the existing deck or the the new deck to be built right and since there was no new deck I I don't know and I'll let if if anybody else has questions because I just I had I couldn't figure out where I was able to stand where this door was exactly you know we don't have a plan that shows where the door I have a a picture showing the foundation that's now poured right and I can identify to you where that right would I saw the foundation that's poured right okay but you know normally you get a site plan or you know something that will say this is where we're going to place in this much Foundation we're placing the door here or here you know okay cuz well when I talked to Paul okay okay because I asked him I said do we need to have a site planner he he indicated he didn't think so because it was underneath the existing deck right or I should say not the existing but the the deck that's already to be built that right go ahead Eric yeah I was fortunate enough to meet you and the uh the contractor so so what you're basically doing is you're you're cutting in a door in the concrete you're cutting a doorway into the concrete there's no patio there's no nothing right just cutting a door in the concrete but I did kind of explain that they're probably they're going to want more information from you um maybe a picture and also indicate where the door is going to be but I I understand what you're saying it's pretty pretty cut forward you're cutting the door into the into the existing foundation and you're going to have another door going yeah I was going by what Paul had told me that I didn't need any further information except writing a letter and taking a couple pictures so that's why I didn't provide any other information well we have the so this is the approved site plan so would you be able to I mean really the only thing that matters is that when the person goes out for to check for a certificate of compliance that they know that that was approved and not right so if you could just is there some way of marking on the plan on that plan not the one on here but uh on a plan that you have that you well I don't have the plans with me either I mean I have pictures but I don't have any plans cuz I sold I didn't what if you took some spray paint on the four corners of the door and took a picture of it where the door is going to be there you go on the concrete you take paint the four things where the door is going to be I could do that I mean if you want you can continue meeting I come back because I'm only 5 minutes away and pick up later this afternoon uh you know at the end of your meeting if that would help you guys can we approve it with a picture coming if we're not really that concerned where the door is that nothing nothing's really happening there they're just cutting I I don't think we're struggling with can this be approved it's that we don't have a something that shows when when when our agent goes out to make sure when a COC suppli for that the door is where it was supposed to be okay that's that's all so as Eric said if I mean I think we could approve it if you get us a picture with what we will do is I'm sure Crystal can hold off issuing the field change and you know well we'll approve it but you need get us a picture okay but what do you want a picture of so I understand you want a a a floor plan of the drawing do you want because on a site plan it's not going to be shown because it's underneath the just we just told you paint the four corners of the door on the on the car foundation and take a picture of it okay well that that's simple enough that's what we not trying to make it complicated we're just we need something that shows no hello just take a picture that we can see how far it is down from one of the Corners yeah it it's approximately 4ot from the existing Foundation okay we're so and it's only going to go another 6 fet maximum so which is less than half the the length of the New Foundation which I believe was actually there is sort of like a diagram I think uh two three uh oh on uh the fifth pict the fifth picture uh uh I I think you have a picture that shows like a ladder laying on the ground yes footing there and you see did I take a photocopy of the my hopefully I took a photocopy of uh the one that I put my markings on this picture is there like a magic marker mark on your picture or not okay that's showing the the extent of the walk out part but the door is going to be more right in front of that ladder okay okay if you understand what I'm saying that because what I say it's extending because we can't bring the dirt right up to the doorway anyway you know it's going to be back a little bit that's why I'm saying the the extent is a little bit further away from where the door would be but I will I will go back Mark the wall and take some pictures and uh do I take them upstairs to the to the office is that what you prefer yes please um how big is the door going to be excuse me how wide is the door going to be a maximum of 6 feet okay so it be just like a a double door uh just to allow them access to bring in like your patio furniture uh they have kayaks because they have the slips down below that they could carry up to steps you know and uh so they could store stuff in the basement you know MH and we weren't aware of that until we actually did the excavation then said whoa you know look at this you know surprise so yeah no it I mean it's certainly a very small change it's just when somebody's trying to make sure that what was supposed to be done that as built meets what was approved we need something I I agree with that I don't have any problem with that so I think we can approve this so if we could have a motion please close the hearing no I move that we approve the field change request for 70 Meadow View Road South Second okay Paul hi Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I you're all set okay thank you very much thank you that's okay that yeah okay Katherine okay the following is a request for determination of applicability at 112 Inlet road map 14b parcel C13 r- 24-26 for Robert and Mary Bainbridge construction of a 31t building addition removal of 22 ft of walkways 31 ft of driveway and installation of storm water controls hi good afternoon uh David Clark Clark engineering on behalf of the Bane Bridges um I poize if the narrative uh wasn't clear um I did see uh U the email from Crystal from Crystal uh with your concerns um so the reason why we we filed a request for determination is that 95 plus% of the project is outside your jurisdiction absolutely um there is a where the building addition is going that's within your jurisdiction there is a uh lower level to first floor level retaining wall that supports a patio right in that corner so that entire area except for maybe a foot and a half uh in the width um is either patio or retaining wall um and only uh 31 Square ft of that addition is within the uh 50 to 100 likewise on the the only other alteration really within your jurisdiction is the driveway um The Architects uh proposing a new parking court and we're moving the driveway a little outside your jurisdiction so there's a reduction there so at the end of the day there's actually a 22t reduction in in site coverage they're still working on the landscape plan for the property that's why one wasn't submitted with this if you'd like to see some details um of of what's going in uh immediately adjacent the driveway we can provide that um over on the addition side um there really isn't much vegetation between the water walkway or the steps from the upper level down the lower level that's on the south side of that addition um there might be some Foundation plantings there um which obviously would have to be removed but if you want a detail on that we' be happy to provide that too so but you say we that with the addition there's 31 square feet in the outer Aura increase and well for the addition the addition then you say in the description for the this it says uh 22 square foot reduction of Pavement in the outer Ur is proposed now that's still I mean it's minimal but it's still nine square feet increase there's there's no increase the the net result of this project is a 22t reduction in site coverage from the 50 to 100 so the pavement the removal of pavement is um 31 Square ft mhm and um there's reduction in um the other Hardscape being the patio and and whatnot um so yeah I guess where I struggled was because it just it said you know you have two sections for your description it says the second part just said the applicants are also proposing to remove and reconstruct the existing asphalt driveway a 22 square foot reduction of pavement within the outer or is proposed so I assume that was the driveway sorry that's that's where and then you also have storm water controls which will also disturb an area that is in within the, 1500 well we were proposing the storm water controls as mitigation in that there are none now um and we thought that if we were moving the driveway the commission would want to see us make an effort to control some of that runoff so also I assume that the little in the driveway the little um looks almost like a ladder that's just a trench that's a trench train yeah I assumed um so that's also catching the water correct that well the the the leech pit is there to accept water from the trench drain um I'll let others if they want to ask questions ask anything they want and then go ahead you want to go J you have something yeah quick question quick question the the driveway is going to be redone in the same in Asphalt yes the Upper Park parking court right now is gravel and I I believe they're going to keep that as gravel so there'll be gravel and asphalt yes yeah so the driveway itself will be asphalt um okay thank you um when I went to the site I was amazed that this building so high up this hill was even in our jurisdiction um I personally have no issues with a coming back with a plant plant planting plan way up there my opinion I don't know about everybody else um and I mean you know you got your you got you have the resource area then you got to get across a paved Road and then you got to go up a cliff uh so I think it's pretty minimal yeah the Bane bres have owned this since 2008 and uh where you see the coastal Conservancy district line that's on the east side of Inlet Road that's where the flood plane was when they bought the place and uh we had done a septic design for then so they've had the understanding since they've owned the property that none of their property was in a Conservancy D or within conservation jurisdiction because it wasn't at that time um but the flood plane change in 2014 dragged the property into your jurisdiction wow I just have a quick go ahead first off I want to thank you that that was perfectly staked I did all my visits this morning and a couple of them weren't Stak one of them I had hard time finding um so I really appreciate that yours was well marked my only question as far as the planting plan do they intend to redo that whole Hillside or they just going to mostly leave it alone no they've been working on that for since 2008 uh because I think it was a field at one time or or largely in Grass um but the landscape plan's really going to deal with the back side of the house um where the retaining wall and all that's going thank you then I don't really have any concern about a planting plan for the front so I think we could approve this and say that the plantings have to be approved by the agent I mean it's such a small amount that will be planted to cover well they don't even have really a an increase in coverage anyway not the way I understood it originally um but I think you if you you know if you'd like then we could just say the agent could approve it um for restoration really we're we're looking at where the leech Pit's going that's 100 square feet or so and then um and then the foundation uh back filling what's happening right there um so that would be great I appreciate I think we could do that yeah so go ahead leas I oh and it's a Catherine am I correct a positive she said positive four what a four I don't know it was technically a negative Katherine is positive negative it's a it's going to be a negative and give me I had the oh I had it up to determine which one it was let me see if I can pull that up really quickly I'm never good at this part three is buffer zone two is in the resource area I've never heard of before I three is buffer and four is two is resource resource so that' be two yeah I think it's a negative two um yes negative -2 is if the area is subject to the ACT but will but the activity will not remove fill dredge or alter that area yep okay we'll Doga -2 okay I sounds good sounds good2 sounds good I move that we approve 112 Inlet Road as a -2 RDA uh with the stipulation that the agent approved the planting plan when available second Paul hi Janet hi Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay thank you thanks all right Catherine okay moving on to the notices of intent there's a notice of intent at 98 oyster Pond furong map 13e parcel 29- 11a for Steven A and Haley G Nas D SE number 10- 3682 construction of a Shore access catwalk the applicant has requested a continuance to January 7th 2025 great need a motion I move that we continue 98 oyster Pond Furlong to January 7th 2025 second Paul I Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay next one okay notice of intent at zero stage Harbor Road and zero Morris Island maps 12 A3 and 13 A3 Parcels Dyke 1 and Dyke 2 for the town of chadam Department of Natural Resources D SC number 10- 3693 temporary groins veins and Beach nourishment okay hey how are you good afternoon Ted Keon Coast resource director I'm going to be brief uh because I want to turn this over to our uh design engineer um John Ramsey just in a minute here I think it's safe to say that this is a unique and unusual project but it's also safe to say we have a unique and unusual situation um our Dynamic outer beaches have been going through many changes over the years in the last five or six or so has really been a drastic change causing some drastic issues that we've been wrestling with so we undertook a few years ago through multiple coastal zone management resiliency grants a study through John's firm to address these issues that I'll let him explain very short shortly and we've come up with what we think is a a a very reasonable approach to deal with this and I'm going to be very upfront and forward that I hope we never have to build this as I've said in many public uh forums we don't want to have the changes that are happening out there progress to me um to the point where we need to do this and then we don't have approvals in place in order to implement something so this is really preparing the town uh for the future um and again I hope we don't have to you know implement the full uh nature of this project baa John you know explained this it's a again a unique uh situation and a unique project thank you thank you go ahead hi um so I'm John Ramsey from sustainable Coastal Solutions representing the town um and just you know just to give us a start here this is the photo from I believe 2020 2020 and you see the dredge working in stage Harbor entrance there uh just shows you that when after 2017 uh when the fulls cut became open uh what end up happening is there was a lot of sand and also a lot of tidal current came down uh across moris Island eroding Crescent Beach and then also uh causing severe uh Shing problems which the town have been dealing with for the last several years uh as Ted said and I will repeat many times during this we are hoping not to have to build this project um certainly the erosion has slowed and the Shing has slowed as well um but we certainly want to have something in place just in case we have to go forward and implement this uh I do do want to just give a little bit of History um just because it is important in this case um it's important to note uh back in the the early 60s that the inlet was actually uh much further to the east um and so uh what ended up happening is the Army Corp of Engineers actually moved the inlet about 2,800 ft to the West uh where we have it presently uh and built the jetty as well um and what they end up doing is filling in the Old Inlet so what the crest portion of Crescent Beach that's eroding now and is in potential breaching is actually not a historic barrier Beach but it's actually just dredge spoil uh that the Army Corps placed there um back in the in the late 60s um and offshore of that they also built a Timber pile Jetty um and the reason why they did that is is obviously to deflect currents uh something similar to what we're looking at but it also protected the the Dyke shortly after they had it built um you still see the remnants of some of that they did pull most of that but there still are some piles out in the water that you see that that were not pulled um and then uh just you know all of this happened uh you know obviously the the outer beach has been going through its cycles of breaching and uh you know we go back to 199 uh one or 1987 when we had the original breach um and then obviously the breach in 2007 uh changed things quite a bit and then that lower portion of NSA Beach that attached to the Shoreline was breached in in 2017 you know causing the problems we have now and obviously we see the erosion and you guys have had many projects in front of view along the east side of Morris Island um that you know obviously there's been a tremendous amount of erosion and a lot of that sand that's being eroded from there has been carried around the corner and towards stage Harbor and also those currents are very strong and kind of ripping in front of uh the Crescent Beach there and eroding that as well um this is just a uh basically a series of photos from 2016 um as you see the things progress f is cut open uh going through 2019 and you see that movement of sand from west to east you never see the sand going the other direction one of the things that's very unique about this situation is the the tide range in the Atlantic Ocean is over 8 feet the tide range in dck sound is only a little over four um so what we end up having is the currents are almost unidirectional always going from uh east to west and that's really dragging all the sand in One Direction uh which allowed us uh going through this process of actually thinking of this more of a river and not just a ocean going back and forth with the tides but actually the current's going in One Direction most of the time and so just give you some numbers there uh as this the beach has been eroding there this Crescent Beach the the red is the area that's eroding the fastest and that's the area that had been the Old Inlet that was filled uh at uh last measurements we're losing up to 19 feet per year that beach is eroding and and at at its narrowest it's less than 100 feet wide at this point um so you're looking at a pretty uh narrow system there and there is concern that oh you know if this continues to happen uh that we're going to actually breach that uh and basically reopen the Old Inlet uh but is certainly going to uh create serious problems for the navigation interests and the harbor of safe Refuge at at stage Harbor um so one of the things we we do a lot of numerical analysis but one of the things just to point out uh the the currents that are going along that Shoreline are at the time we're doing this analysis we're on the on the order of Two and a Half knots going from uh east to west so this is something can easily pick up sand and transport it but it also gets to the point where it's it's pretty dangerous as well um and those Cur going in that direction are about two times stronger than the currents going the other direction and they also occur for about 90% of the tidal cycle um we're only 10% of the time this the flow is going the other direction um so the picture on the bottom just shows you a typical view of what Crescent Beach looks like uh with its you know basically vertical scarp along much of it uh as it continues to erode uh so that's one of the things that is a critical driver here we want to make sure we're preserving Crescent Beach but also reducing that flow of sediment going towards stage Harbor which has cost the town uh you know several million dollars at this point to try to maintain as well as the Army Corps coming in and having to dredge it more frequently uh one thing I would like to point out that uh and this is probably one of the important things to understand is that this project isn't going to be needed forever um just like the the old project that we had back in 20 uh back in the 1960s what we're really looking at you know based on work by Graham g at the up at the uh uh Center for Coastal studies is that by uh around 20 40ish we're likely to have this uh pool's cut closed off and we will no longer have this area exposed um on the other hand you know we've as well as these predictions have gone uh a lot of the predictions for the system are it's slightly different than than the way it happened historically last time so again we'd like to say it's going to be close to 20 240 we just don't know um and so again it goes to the the caution of this project having something in place that we can install if something changes is if if for some reason that that breaches and and we need to uh uh have to put these structures in to uh maintain safe navigation as well as uh preserve Crescent Beach um so we did a a whole detailed modeling analysis and I'm not obviously not going to go through all of that but I want to at least note that we went through this whole process of calibrating a numerical model to make sure that we could predict what or to measure what happens now and be able to to actually model the currents as they currently exist and then we can use that tool to model a whole different set of scenarios and to see what effect they're going to have on the system so that was the the reason for putting this tool together and I'll just uh again it was driven by pretty much a title model um and develop for currents and then also looking at sediment transport uh throughout series of title Cycles so I'll just go and kind of play a movie to give you an idea the arrows are the direction of the current uh the magnitude is the length of the arrow um so one of the things you see is when when it's coming in from the Atlantic Ocean the arrows are a lot longer um meaning stronger currents and they're all heading from east to west and then when it reverses and goes back out you see it's a much shorter time period and the arrows are shorter you know telling us again it's that rivering situation so we can sort of treat this as a river unidirectional flow and if we can basically guide Flow Away from the shoreline um in One Direction we can prevent that area from eroding and likely turn it into into an accretionary Shoreline again and so just a quick uh view from a couple snapshots from that movie Maximum flood currents and we're assuming flooding is coming from the ocean in this case on the bottom right you obviously see you see that big uh you know strong arrows uh High currents again uh if you look at that bottom right corner you see 3 feet per second that's the velocity that's needed that's the length of the arrow needed to move very coarse sand and so you see many of those arrows are a lot larger than that meaning that this obviously that all that Shing that you see is moving uh from east to west on the top left is the when it's ebbing back out towards the ocean and you see it's a much weaker currence there are some areas where some sediments moved but it's for a very short period of time uh during the tital cycle so it's very much dominated by this uh flood currents coming from the ocean uh so we looked at several Alternatives and uh it's in the the notice tent in in the meepa filing that was included I'm not going to go into those in details but I just want to sort of give you guys the idea of all the things that we did look at obviously no action is something that we looked at and we obviously didn't see that as a a viable solution we certainly need stage Harbor um as as part of for the town and and uh it's critical for flood protection Etc the barrier Beach so that was off the table we looked at reorienting the channel um really didn't provide what we needed as far as far as um you know preserving Crescent Beach Inlet relocation same problem uh and Inlet relocation would have been moving it over to where the bendon Oyster River is uh obviously it's something that would have uh huge environmental impacts that we really didn't want to uh approach uh flow control structures which I'll talk a little bit about and then the same concept of of uh flow control structures with nourishment uh one of the things that we we knew that we needed was to uh reestablish Crescent Beach uh because of all the erosion that's happened we wanted wanted to return it to its pre 2017 conditions so that it could uh withstand you know some future hurricane uh and uh be able to provide that level of protection for the harbor going down the road and so uh what end up being the preferred alternative was these flow control structures which I'll talk about in a couple minutes um but it's also with with this beach nourishment and so one of the things we did when we came up with that preferred alternative we did more detail bemet uh looked looked at eelgrass again uh all of those issues and came up with with the design that you'll uh see in in your packet Etc um and then we updated the model to make sure and put it into a very detailed analysis to make sure we understood your know potential scour at each of these flow control structures to make sure that we would be putting them into a depth that they needed to be put in it um this is the kind of that detailed grid of the flow control structures and basically what these these structures look like these are vertical basically vertical sheet pile or the groin that connects to the land and then there's a series of veins offshore the reason why we're using sheet pile or proposing sheet pile is because it's temporary it can be vibrated in and vibrated out this is intended to be temporary structures we want it be be able to um place them but also remove them um easily and the one thing I will point out what we're trying to go forward with permitting is the maximum array that we would ever put out um it's the with the uh understanding and I'll talk again a little bit about this we have created like a placement area so this is the initial placement based on what we know right now um as this the conditions change in the future we would never create something that's any bigger than this and likely would be smaller shorter fewer veins uh closer to the Shoreline but again it's going to be dependent upon what the conditions are at the time if this ever is needed but again this is just sort of the presentation of the worst case scenario so that growing length is 640 ft um and then there's 11 veins with in each of those is on the order of 30 feet um those those would be series of sheet piles over 30 feet and that's another 398 ft total um so you're looking at slightly uh over a th000 feet of total structure and again temporary meant to be put in for no more than about 15 years worst case scenario and so we also have this uh Beach nourishment U and what the intent of the beach nourishment is is to restore the shoreline to that pre uh 2017 conditions and so on the left is the the footprint of the beach nourishment above mean high water just to return the shoreline where the mean high water shoreline was obviously when we do a beach nourishment as you see on the lower right you know the the footprint of that beach nourishment goes under water uh so that's the total footprint the total coverage of the proposed nourishment um and that's 9 .1 Acres uh 84,000 cubic yards uh the intent here again uh it's uh unlikely obviously the town would not probably not do that project as a one-off Time Project they would do it as multiple projects Andor they might not do the whole thing at all uh but the the veins themselves might trap quite a bit of that sand um over time and therefore the nourishment won't be required but the intent is to bring that Shoreline back out to where it was pre 2017 and the uh total coverage is 9.1 acres for that beach nourishment uh just a uh for the resource area impacts um so this I'm just going to go through a couple series of photos uh the the uh green line is the the monoy National Wildlife Refuge boundary um one of our when we were first looking at this we certainly had vain options that were in the Wildlife Refuge um and you know obviously one of one of the things we wanted to try to attempt to do is keep it outside and as long as that worked uh we were happy with it um and that turned out actually the best option was actually Outside The wildli Refuge so uh we were forced to do it but I just want to include that on there just so you're you're aware of where this this project lies relative to the federal land um so this goes to 2019 and one of the things you see is is that very uh pronounced channel in the near shore um over time as we're moving forward one of the things you do start seeing is the buildup at at the uh Southeast corner of Morse Island um is that that spit is starting to move out um and that is something that we're uh very cognizant of and and is actually making the situation better we're still have pretty strong currents along Crescent Beach but that is starting to slow them down and as we move forward in time you see that that sh get up uh set up more and more and obviously the Fool's cut is is narrowing as well um and again through 2022 you see that uh uh quite pronounced so as that continues and that is continuing to grow you know we're getting more comfortable that this may may not be needed but there is the concern that if that tip gets uh uh cut off the barrier spit again and a major nor Easter comes through and knocks that uh sh out that will be back to where we were in 2019 so again we want to make sure that we have this option available U so just throwing it our project in comparison to where the Army Corps project is uh or was the that's the uh original Inlet relocation project the uh is that orange or yellow my red green color blind is terrible we're going to go with orange sorry um so you can see where where they where they constructed the Dyke and where they constructed the new Inlet as well as their offshore structure that still has the piles in there um and that's relative to what we're what we're installing or proposing to install and one of the things you you'll see is that what we're proposing is is actually relatively small compared to what they did back in the 60s U but at the same time we think it's going to accomplish uh what needed to be done or what needs to be done to slow that current down um they were moving an entire Inlet and needing to protect that while they were um building that barrier Beach um we basically are are just trying to slow down the currents so that we can uh disrupt the sent transport patterns along there get some accretion um and reduce the amount of Shing going into uh stage Harbor entrance Channel um so I did did want to just talk about this placement Zone concept uh uh Ted and I and my engineers and modelers have had these discussions over the years that you know it's great to put this in but that's in a static condition we know that this area is not static in any way um so one of the things we floated the idea was having uh with through the meepa process was going and having this placement Zone being able to potentially move these structures and again the structure will never be any have any more uh larger Dimensions than what we're proposing um but we want to be able to move that structure within this Zone if that's a better place uh because we've seen that sh build out on the Southeast Corner moris Island one of the things we kind of see is an S curve of of of current setup U so that might uh be better to move the the system further west and again before we did that we would certainly be in front of you asking for permission to make sure you understood exactly what we are doing if we were uh choosing to to alter that so this wouldn't be you wouldn't be permitting us to alter anything within the entire placement Zone it'd be trying to permit this project with the understanding if there are alterations that we would have to come back uh before all the regulators and make sure they understand what we're doing um and again these uh um structures are meant to be done in a way uh into a depth that can where they're in the water we can place them by barge where they're on land they can be placed from Land uh but it's meant to be vibrated in sheap pile uh which is easy to remove so we're not intending to cut anything off and leave it in place uh like the Army Corp did with their wood piles um so this is intended to be temporary placed and removed when no longer needed um and that is certainly some of the conditions that we have been dealing with meepa they understand uh and the and the uh State permit applications that they understand that this is going to have to have removal requirements um when it's no longer needed uh I threw up the plans here just to make sure if you guys had any questions these are the plans that are in the in the uh filing U this is just shows the overall footprint of the beach nourishment uh with that uh with that zone um that just gives you an da the footprint you also see the the veins the scale of the veins there uh that basically the the uh various uh sheets there of of sheet pile groin in the in the 11 veins offshore uh this is the beach profile uh for the you know this is again maximum Beach profile that we would do um we're looking at uh typical of of what Ted's group does for a lot of the beach nourishments here one on 10 slope we've worked uh strong or closely with Amy honig from natural heritage to make sure that they're uh understanding what we're trying to do make sure the slopes are appropriate but also make sure that uh when the uh temporary groin is placed that we're placing it at an elevation that allows Plover to uh be able to walk around the upper end of the structure and not impede their progress along the beach and I believe that you have a letter from them as well do in your file um and then this is just the uh what the groin would look or you know the the groin would look like up there on the top with the beach nourishment more with the slope more to scale um and just showing you that the the top of the the groin is actually below the elevation of the beach again to allow um any plovers walking along the beach and not to be impeded um and then just some details of of how the the structure would look again it's just sheet pile it's I'm going to show a picture in a couple minutes of just to give you guys some scale idea of what this might look like from a visual but the the thing I'm going to show has wood piles Etc with it this would only be the steel sheeting and then uh just to also for construction access uh for the beach nourishment aspect if we are looking uh and also the landward portion of the groin we're looking at Landing a barge at the tip uh in the stage Harbor entrance and then accessing the site along the fronting Beach um and that that would be for delivering the the first part of the groin for sheet pile and then also for the dredge pipe uh for any placement of of beach nourishment material along the the beach and you know obviously this is not the kind of numbers you guys are typically used to but I just want to you know be up front but I mean you know this is this these are the the the impacts to Coastal resource areas almost all of this is Beach nourishment um so it's it really is just reestablishing uh you know so you're basically your Coastal Beach you're bearing the existing Coastal beach in in in the face of the of the Dune that's basically a vertical slope now um and then we are filling land under the ocean that had been historically been Coastal Beach uh that has been eroded away um and so now some of that is now land containing shellfish uh we do did have a letter from the shelfish uh Warden as well just to to make sure that people understand that that we are very well aware of the issues and we know that offshore there's a soft shell climbing habitat as well um so this is that photograph I was talking about so we would not have any of these uh wood type things but I want people to understand that this is not going to be the prettiest structure if it's constructed this is this is something it is going to be just a couple feet above Bean high water um but it is going to to be made of of Steel um these steel sheet piles um as I said it's going to be from both land and Barge uh the vein construction is all from barge um again don't reiterate too many times temporary but also uh likely when if this is Ever Needed it's likely going to be smaller than what we see but that would be you know some we would do some analysis to determine what would need to be done uh if it ever is needed um and then the vibratory hammer to put it in and pull it out so people aren't going to be listening to a uh a uh impact hammer from months on end um so this would be pretty quiet to install it and we are proposing to have navigation Lighting on it to warn voters we well aware of the the more silent cut and and people's desire to speed through there at incredibly high speeds and maybe not the most intelligent times but we are aware um so as I again uh alterations to currents and Shing uh we're going to straight this whole concept is to shift those currents further offshore uh we're going to be that will increase the Shing both upstream and downstream uh so it's kind of acts as a block Upstream almost like a groin you know part of that is a groin but also Downstream it lowers the currents so that the sand that's in suspension will drop out um there is a potential increase a bit of scour off the tip because we are going to be redirecting the currents a little bit but uh based on the maing it looks uh negligible um and again would shift the you know anybody boting obviously is not going to go right through the array it's going to be shift people to go offshore of it you know obviously there'd be warning signs on this the array is spaced so somebody can squeeze a boat through there just because that's the way it is I really am hoping people do not um and again we're we're looking that to have this uh no more than the next 15 to 20 years so I mean we're hoping again we don't know we're not anticipating doing it right away um and there doesn't seem to be a need for it right now but if there is ever is a need that need would never last more than a 15 or 20 year time frame because of the the way the schs shift here and once we have the the outer Beach grows past here similar to um back in the in the 50s we get out of the situation and then you're you know once that once you no longer have direct exposure of waves and currents to this area you know obviously the structure no longer needed and would be removed uh and I just we had a couple visuals we gave for the public meeting just so people can kind of get an idea of what this looks like again this is not necessarily the scale but it gives you an idea of how far these stick offshore and what it looks like that groin in the series of veins this is this is from the south west viewing looking up towards the Northeast and then looking in the opposite direction uh but this is kind of General give you an idea of what it looks like like and the light shaded blue is the underwater portion of the beach nourishment the the sand color is that is sand color right sand color is the beach nourishment above me I water um so uh kind of lastly you know will the project be necessary because that's one of the things that we've talked with the town a lot about um you know it really does depend on on how noet Beach acts offshore um it it it is breaking up similar to what people have suggested we do but not exactly the way we expected and it really seems to be um still storm driven so it really depends on frequency of storms as to how the system reacts you know it it uh has a major falling apart during a storm and then it you see what repairs over the next couple years uh so we're just going to have to take a look at it but again trying to get this in place just so we have it in our back pocket if it's Ever Needed is the is the idea um we're still monitoring that SCH continuing to build South Morris Island which is great that really is helping out right now and and lessening the need for this uh the erosion of Crescent Beach has slowed um which is great um but again it's not repairing itself it's not growing it's just the erosion is slowed and so it's still at a a narrow uh situation uh stage Harbor trolling rate is has decreased uh hasn't shut off but you know again it's you know as it becomes more manageable there's less of impetus to spend you know the several million dollars you're going to need to build this um and then uh you know obviously we're trying to shift that that title flow further south of the array uh and again 15 to 20 years I don't want to overdo that um uh the placement zone is meant to allow give us flexibility uh and again it's not just flexibility in where we're placing it but also flexibility in and mainly coming to the idea that maybe we don't need as much structure and maybe be able to shorten it or have your veins um and then uh regardless of whether the structures are needed I just want if from the beach nourishment standpoint at some point the town's likely going to want to um restore that Beach uh back to its pre-2017 conditions just so it's stable um so even if this project isn't done it's likely to you know at least that portion of the project we likely will build at some point um but again there's less of a need uh to to do it imminently if if the if the the that area shws in but again uh to M maintain that stability of that system eventually that that nourishment or uh this you know if this project is built the accretion we do want to get that Shoreline back to its pre pre 2017 conditions and with that oh that's just recent changes so that's that growing sh just to the South if this looking straight South uh Cresent beach is on the the top right um You just see how that sh uh that's from last June or year before June but you just it's a good picture close to lower tide so you can see that shw growing just off the South tip that's continuing to grow but you do see the currents are still coming around but they're certainly not going right across the face of Crescent Beach at the velocity they're going at in 2019 so if that continues to grow and schol in we may not need this project but uh we're just we're keeping an eye on that with that I can open up to questions you go back to the one it's like three back yeah right before that no maybe even yes will this project be necessary so if what will determine if that you're going to do this if any one of these changes no I I think what we'll we will determine this I right now it doesn't look like would do it because because I think things are manageable right now we would probably at some point uh and I'm not want to put words in the town's mouth but at some point they're going to want to restore the beach if things continue to sh up the way they are um and then we would not put the structure aspects in I think what what the idea is is if in order to implement the structures I think we would have to see this open up again and start creating the same problems we had but we want to be able to to be able to build it quickly if if that becomes necessary but if things keep progressing the way they are we're not we I don't think there's going to be any intention or any uh appetite for the town to spend that kind of money to uh uh try to maintain that I don't know if you want yes I agree with whatever he just said the um the cost of this is obviously not small but the cost of our dredging program is not small either you know the last few years have been well a lesser need the core has been very good in the sense that they've had some funding to come in if the core hadn't been here the town's need for um dredging would have been higher but regardless the infilling of the channel isn't anything close to what it was in that 2019 220 2020 time frame where essentially the sh ran across the whole Channel and we were in the throws of being cut off that that's not a good situation if that situation or those conditions were to you know reestablish through the further deterioration of South Beach New Wave Energy new current velocities and all of a sudden the channel gets re you know the the channel of concern gets reestablished to its where it was then it's probably worth looking at this again and saying you know what the dredging needs are going to go up big time and the loss of Crescent Beach is a very dire situation a so those are the kind of situations that would dictate all right let's consider putting this or something very close to this configuration back in the system so really if we all of a sudden had to really dredge that would be your your drop off of we need to do this because there's so much dredging needed it's the dredging and the Crescent Beach even if the dredging were to slow down if Crescent Beach were being you know okay substantially impacted which given its size right now there's not a lot left no we would need to do something okay um because we don't want that to breach that would not be a good scenario and what then determines if the structures can be removed or if they need to be moved to a different part of Crescent Beach you know basically just continuing to Monitor and see how it's performing and how the system is developing and getting smart people like John's Coastal processes modeling saying you know this is going to go in the bad direction we need to do something or conversely this is looking really good let's start pulling some of these out and you can pull some out you don't have to take everything out all at once correct yeah okay and and I I will say that uh you know for the actual full removal I mean if you know when um that fo's cut closes and you know mono joints back up to to the south end of Morris Island I mean obviously that would trigger us pulling all the structures because there really would no longer be needed so what triggers if we need each nourishment in addition to this I mean you could argue that triggers already happened yeah so you know if we get know if permits are in place doing nourishment may be something we want to do regardless okay I think that's you know again I think it's self-evident that yeah nourishment is not a bad thing we don't want to put nourishment that's going to immediately get swept away and go into the channel so there are other considerations that we would have and before we do it but nourishment is a standalone theoretically would be a good thing you know last year so um okay um go ahead Janet I just wanted to jump in because I have some really foundational questions um and you're quite right um that since the Fool's break we've been learning a lot more about Channel flows both directional and volumetric um and how those things change quickly so what I wanted to ask about is I understand that U the flow coming east to west um is much is much stronger um it's much more persistent than going the other way but we also have learned over the last years that in general the current flow along the South Coast from Harwich into chattam is West to to East which is why those groins were put in over time in the Jetties and all the problems that they've caused where do those two flows meet and and what happens at that point so so it's it's not necessar a meeing of flows so so if you look at the the west to east on the South Shore of the of the cape that's really a long-term wave direction not necessarily anything to do with the currents themselves but actually waves moving the sand along the shore okay this is really a kind of a unique problem it's almost 100% just tial current driven okay it's not waves driving it uh so there's no magic spot but I will say that you get to Hardings Beach and you know the that's where the transport seems to kind of be a little bit both ways and one of them is it's kind of where the the currents stop dominating and the waves start taking over right there in Beach the current slows slows down enough at that point where the waves can begin to exert some dominance at that it's not readily obvious on this photo but in the lower one right about there that's where the so that's a large title flat area right that a bar is a bar that comes out that's that's exposed at low tide my ass and you have the you see the I knew mark would yeah that's where the the currents have slowed down and now the wave dominates so when you walk out on that at low tide you can you can see and feel the flow coming from both directions I mean you'll see you'll feel the tital currents coming from One Direction but you'll also have the waves kind of pushing the explains that okay so these the groin and the veins is designed to redirect both the the current flow and the sediment transport both it's it's intended to to redirect the the current mainly um in the sediment transport it just it ends up slowing down the currents as well so the sediment drops out so so think of it that way those veins are even though they're redirecting the currents they're also you know creating turbulence that just kind of settles so it's a if you think of it as almost a uh like a a sand fence in a way where the wind's blowing through and it's dropping it out on the other side so that makes sense on the veins but the groin is a solid structure the groin is is is intended to to redirect the flow going to hit that and then go off in a South Westerly correct direction Y and what are the KnockOn effects of that I mean the KnockOn effects if we weren't doing nourishment there might be some concerns of Dow drift erosion although we don't uh you know we don't really uh because it's being eroded so badly now that's a minor effect compared to what the the structure impact is um but we are proposing nourishment there for a reason because that will be a spot where it's the currents are very slow and so we can place nourishment and it will work and so the idea is when it's no longer when the currents are slow enough and we have the whole area blocked then we can pull the whole structure and so that the down the long-term effect will be nothing okay and if if I can add you know on the shadow side the west side of this hard structure you're basically now removing the primary driving force which is the current and you're now allowing it to be exposed to that other Force we were just talking about Southwest predominant winds there may be some accretionary movement of sediments in that shadow zone okay so but on the Eastern side of the groin I noticed that the nourishment the groin cuts through the nourishment area so why wouldn't the nourishment that's placed on the Eastern side of that be washed away by the current coming through and turning well the reason why we have the combination of the groin and the veins so the vein so the veins are going to slow down the currents not just where they are but they end up slowing down kind of they end up building up an upstream Slowdown so it's basically going to be re redirecting the currents so they go further offshore so the whole system will work that way so we're not going to it's you know right now we we want that groin piece in there just so we have a shoreline connection if we put these veins all the way to shore we end up because each of these veins has it kind of creates its own scour hole because it's a lot of turbulence um so we don't want to put them right up against the shoreline because we'd be eroding you know creating turbulance right up against the beach so we wanted to to kind of carry that uh effect further offshore and why you see it at the angle that it's at as well right and the groin because of the way it's angled won't cause any kind of um turbulent action as the current hits that solid structure it'll just be gently turned hopefully gently turning again at least that's that's that's what's being shown all right thank you I'll do it for a moment I have a couple more anybody else go ahead Eric um question I had well yeah I mean what can happen will happen who knows um but if if if it gets partially buried wouldn't you just leave it I mean wouldn't it what would the the disturbance and the cost of Excavating what if it's buried or half of it buried under four feet of sediment would you bother Excavating and removing it or just leave it well I mean you basically from an environmental standpoint we want to remove it I mean I I understand what you're saying this is as the beach erods I see some of the old dredge equipment that was used to build the beach coming falling out so I I'm aware that you know so there's one thing to be said for at some point it's going to show up so it's better to remove it I mean you know and that's what somebody had asked us early on was can't you just cut these off and it's like well that's what the Army Corps did and they've kind of left some navigation hazards out there for people so we want to make this so it could be taken out um and again it's more from environmental standpoint because 50 years from now somebody's you know when this beach changes form or something somebody's going to see a rusted piece of sheet pile and wonder why it was out there um and what a hazard it is uh because it might end up being in the water at that point so so we really do want to get you know once these no longer needed we do want to remove these um just a quick question what are those cables that are out there do you know within the history of that do you walk in that beach part of the Dr equipment so that's that so that that is part of the old throw it up on the beach and bury it and yeah so so the cables are are part of the the crane or the the Derek the so it's yeah a little bit of History a little bit of History laying around for you to look at there is yeah all right thank you Elise anything not yet okay Janet I'll just I'll note that um I noticed that you address Performance standards for the coastal and barrier Beach um and the but not the land under the ocean or the coastal Dune um or they're defined as what those are the resource areas but the perform standards are not listed or addressed in the way that the project meets them okay I'll have to check that okay yep that just is a I don't know if that could deleted something are you still thinking about putting Lighting on this on these structures okay just uh Hazard lighting of some Hazard lighting right now we we we through the process we're going to need to deal with the Army Core of Engineers um and likely we're going to be directed to the Coast Guard as well uh so we'll have to determine what level of lighting is necessary um okay my my a caveat to that is you know as we all know this is an active navigation area for the right Tides the right vessels Etc there may be conditions in the near future where navigation is naturally not going to be able to happen there but we still may need this structure not to say we wouldn't want these you know things lit but navigation is going to get impacted here through natural processes it's happening now right I can't tell you that this will be if we didn't do this navigation be able to continue for two more years or 10 more years I have no idea but I don't think it's going to be the way people are expecting it you know at some point in the future yeah um two quick questions so you're asking for approval for the nourishment um down below mean low water down below mean low water to a depth of up to uh -3.2 ft that might be that you that's probably the deepest that we have surveyed it's probably shallower now but yes okay and what prevents that from being taken back away by Nature the the nourishment um I mean well you know that the that depth at that far out under at that depth I mean it's the the basically the structure array if it were all done now that structure array slows down the current so it's not taken away um so you know they they need to go hand in hand if if we are uh under current conditions um but if the current slow down more we can look at that and then the nourishment could be placed without the structures if things have slowed down enough right so the contemplation is that some nourishment at least higher up could be done just to begin the process of building back the beach area but you wouldn't be nourishing down Into the Depths below mean low until the unless you were going to do the the structur of the veins um not necessarily so so I think what it is it has more to do with so if like the uh fools cut closes or gets close to closing you can do the full nourishment and because we don't really have any tidal currents that are going to be driving that sand away um so so you can do the full nourishment um you know right now the way the conditions are and maybe it's more like 2019 2020 you saw the vertical scar I wouldn't want to put any Beach nourishment on that because it's just going to be immediately taken away um so it's sort of a you know it's a chicken or egg thing I mean we have to look at what conditions are needed but as Ted has mentioned you know things have slowed down right now we're we're feeling pretty good um but if things open up again we're going to want to do probably both things nourishment and uh the vein placement but again it's it's it's I know this is kind of a an odd thing for a Conservation Commission to try to because this is this is a hard thing because we we're asking for permission for the entire project because right in case it's needed um and I think that the thing with just doing nourishment I I wouldn't recommend that nourishment be placed now right because I think it would be swept away even at the upper part right but you're yes yes you're asking for per for a for a little bit of a blank check depending upon how conditions change and we like specificity um and so I'm trying to figure out a way to structure an order that would basically approve the whole concept and the and the the um Zone area um but provide us with specificity if and when some point is reached where you want to move forward forward with some aspect of this and so that the the actual specifications of what's going to be happening the size the location the volume all of that are brought in before the action happens I mean that's not unlike to some extent our existing dredge permits what I yeah zone of potential dredging zone of potential veins and we had that structure the same way so each dredge project you you do come in we don't come to you necessarily go to the agent let we're doing this not here anymore we're going to bounce it over here because this is the better and then the agent makes the determination of whether to report to us and have a ask you guys to come in for something like this I mean it may require coming before you folks as well just to all right we're ready to do this and this is the level that we're proposing to do I can see that being a very reasonable given the nature of this project okay okay thank you oh I'm sorry one last one Eel Grass habitat survey is that a require that's a requirement of I forget who letter I was looking at but um yeah it is um so so what what you know our suggestion on that is is to do an eelgrass survey immediately before we anticipate doing the project okay any part of it any part of it okay so that'll be a early an early act activity before any other thing right so it' be a pre-construction survey to make sure that we're avoiding Eel Grass uh and not you know obviously we have no if Eel Grass is growing I don't think the currents are strong enough to need the veins so it's a good thing so it's a good thing and some of the Eel Grass that had been out there is probably under six feet of sand right now similar to other areas in Cham Harbor yeah okay thank you um it looks like Lauren Lauren go ahead from CH conservation Foundation yeah Foundation sorry that we're not hearing you if you're on mute Lauren well we can't I know perhaps her interest yeah because she was appropriately um made aware that the original location of the veins the the groin portion that attached to land was actually over the line into their property um we looked at that it was again based on the conditions we were you know physical conditions out there John moved the groin over onto the townland so it no longer is the the physical structure the hard structure is on their property and then they did um acknowledge that the breach nourishment would be on their portion of property and they' acknowledge that they were not opposed to that I don't know that that's what she was going to speak on but I knew that that was an issue she oh you can un Madam chair do you want she says she do you want me to read the chat because she says she can't unmute sure I was just about to go ahead okay um she says that the slide that shows alternative number five does not represent CCF property lines can the placement Zone be adjusted to remove it from CCF property also the following slide permitting plans again does not show CCF property lines and the project is shown going up to the Monomoy property line I'm not sure I followed that all so the so alternative number five does not represent CCF property lines placement Zone be adjusted to remove it and so so the so the project itself uh the groin go does go onto Town Pro property if you look at this perming plan the the you can see the I don't know where line the property line is that zigzag there uh but it is off their property it's it's it's about five feet off their property right now okay um the one thing I will say uh we certainly can move the uh placement Zone to make sure that that placement zone is slid to the west to make sure and certainly that could be conditioned that no uh structure could be you know no the groin cannot be placed on uh chattam conservation Foundation property I I that's uh that's fine I mean that's that was the intent I apologize for not modifying the uh placement Zone um but offshore I'd like to leave the placement zon so that we if the veins need to be pulled further east it's not on their property it's in in uh state tidelands but uh yeah but certainly the the the groin itself will'll make sure is not on uh chattam conservation Foundation property great thank you I Lauren I hope that answers everything for you um anybody else Cheryl anybody Eric anything else um I think this can go to an order I mean we don't it doesn't seem we have anything that we're changing it's going to take a while to write this order um could we have a few weeks I mean you're not in any rush and we're happy to help with that order thank you thank you right we'll come to you for the help on the performance standards because there are some that are a little tricky about circulation and turbidity and stuff like that that need to be addressed in some way right but I think trying to figure out what's a re reasonable amount of time to give us to get this done um no could we even go to December 4th that us it's fine with us I think I that gives us a month because there's a holiday in there and everything um to really hammer it out and share with you and come up with what we really do need to do so I think we can go to an order and we'll do it for December okay I move that we continue zero stage Harbor Crescent Beach uh to December 4th 2024 for an order of conditions second Paul hi Janet hi Elise hi Eric hi Cheryl I and I say I so we will see you December 4th thank you thank you so thank you very much for the presentation and it's complicated I know all right Katherine we're ready for the next okay we have a notice of intent at 217 Woodland way map 11k parcel hc25 for John and Paul palowski D SE number 10 - 3702 construction of a Swimming Pool and Patio within the buffer zone to a Coastal Bank the applicant has requested to continue to November 6 2024 okay so we need a motion I move that we continue 27 Woodland way to November 6 2024 second Paul I Janet I Elise I Eric hi Cheryl I and I say I okay next one okay notice of intent at 170 Vineyard Avenue map 10d parcel 4- d114 for David Briggs D SE number 10- 3703 proposed raise and replacement of single family dwelling do we oh there we go go ahead good afternoon everyone for the record my name is my name is Hannah radit Wetland scientist with BSC um I'll go ahead and share the plan if that's okay sure right it's a little put off but I can move it around as I discuss um so quickly a a um a summary of the project this is a notice of in application on behalf of David Briggs for the raise and replacement of a single family dwelling um the footprint of the dwelling as you can see sort of overlaps with what is proposed and is roughly the same dimensions um with uh some subtractions of the dwelling size for um a deck deck on the front and on the back as well as access stairways for these structures uh for the resource areas on this site there's land subject to Coastal storm Flowage um which has sort of a strange um Wiggly buffer on this site as well as uh down here in the corner um and proposed impacts to this resource area have more to do with excavation um removing of certain features and uh expansion of um certain features on the house and utilities uh mainly septic the sewer connection and these storm water features there's also a 100t buffer zone to bvw this is associated with a pond to the west of the site this is a Inland Pond that I believe is unnamed um and there's a very very narrow um vegetated border to this Pond which is the reason why we didn't submit BBW data forms instead we submitted a delineation letter there is salt marsh on the far side of Vineyard AV to the east of the site um but the buffer just just barely grazes as well as the edge of the uh freshwater buffer at the edge of that Wetland um so that's not not so applicable however as you can see we are still going to propose sediment controls on that corner of the site as well as around the rest of the lot at the limit of work getting back into what's proposed so as I mentioned this is the raise and replacement of a single family dwelling with Associated utility work the this uh site will be tied into the sewer system so the existing septic will be disposed of as uh is typically done being pumped um filled with sand crushed and removed from the site um and then the connection line to the Sewer established um as well as as I mentioned earlier connections to storm water control connected to roof drains from the various portions of the dwelling um on this side um to the north and to the South as well the driveway will be repositioned it's a little hard to see but as you can see the existing gravel driveway is is along here and this portion that continues into the back portion of the lot will just be removed and uh repositioned so that it matches up with the drive under uh slab garage um for this site it's largely maintained lawn and and cleared areas so there's not going to be any proposed removal of native vegetation um the only impacts to Resource areas on this site um are 46 Square ft of impacts associated with this um raised Stairway to the back deck and 397 squ ft of impacts to L subject to Coastal storm Flowage associated with excavation um for installation of utilities up here uh for these impacts we are proposing 400 square ft of native vegetative plantings to be back here this will consist of shrubs we have proposed on the site High Bush blueberry sweet pepper bush and Arrowwood which match the characteristics of this site being uh freshwater but sort of Upland of the resource areas we believe this portion of the site will be shaded and wet enough to support these shrub species there's no proposed changes to grade um excavation obviously will be required um for the installation of the dwelling but the intention is to uh reestablish any changes in grade to the site uh following construction this will be done with um any clean fill that matches the soil characteristics of the site stabilized with grass seed and the sediment controls which are at the limit of work will remain in place until the project is complete and the site is fully stabilized I believe that is everything important so I'll just turn it over to the Conservation Commission for their questions um I do have a question about uh I guess the plan that you provided to zba um includes a retaining wall along the driveway and um I I don't know it seems their plans seem to be different than our plans is that correct that is something I would have to check with our um survey on uh for my understanding I wasn't involved with the zba filing um but I will confirm with him to make sure that what's proposed on the zba plan matches what we've brought in front of you okay thank you um and I know you say you're you know you've said what plantings are going in and where they're going but normally we get one that sort of shows the plantings going in that area um and how it's going to be set up we didn't get that um so I'm just curious why you didn't think we needed to have that we can revise has a plan to have it show where the shrubs are within the planting area um okay and in the backyard there's a shed now looks like from the plan that you provided that it's not in the property is that correct it's it's it's painted and everything to look like it belongs with the house and so I'm just curious about that shed and if it's permitted or what okay yeah I will have to check back in with um the head of survey for that answer thank you and when this is done the area that is within our jurisdiction um I'm assuming you're going to be putting some lawn in am I correct the idea is to maintain what's currently there um so any lawn that's within that corner will be taken out for the planting area and then lawn planted up to the edge of that planting area yeah it kind of isn't really lawn right now you know it's like and I know the driveways out of our jurisdiction but I couldn't find gravel in that driveway when I parked um it's it's pretty grown over but um and I I honestly yes I know it's grass but it's like a foot tall so it doesn't seem like it's decent grass so I just it would be nice to know in case what will be going there um I'm going to leave it up to others go ahead Elise is there any tree removal planned for this property there seem to be quite a few interesting trees in on the L I don't believe that any tree removal is proposed um it's it's definitely difficult with the as you can see with the boundary of the lot and where you know these these cleared areas are back here in the shed um to to determine like where trees are um but it's my understanding that any trees on this site had been located and none will need to be removed for any of the um site work or the construction work there seemed to be a couple of trees that look stumps anyway that looked fairly recent back to when you walked all the way to the back to the road that's behind um this property and one of them was a much older cut than the other two so I I'm just I I would appreciate confirmation that um the tree work is non-existent for for this particular project understood chery it is they do show that there's Corner bounds for this property line and that the shed's on the other side and most cting you're talking about is on this property that seems to be owned by Oyster River Hills Association yeah it's just are but it does appear that that they've been using it because there's debris there oh yeah and but I'm not sure sh we get to regulate that the shed is look identical to the house so that's why I'm just questioning if it truly but the cor who owns yeah the corner bounds are there the property lines are pretty clearly delineated I just don't know who owns behind and who gets to use it go ahead anybody yeah um well for for what we are jurisdictions it's pretty minimal this project um you know that shed can be used as mitigation too um it's I don't know what size the shed is but how technically it can be used as mitigation how well because of the square footage of the shed no I thought no oh you can't no no you mean if you took it out yeah or doesn't it account for it's a pre-existing and it's a shed can it be used as mitigation to square footage of it not if it's on their property yeah and if it was permitted when it was put in so their options are to just leave it yeah yeah I just if it's if it if they actually own it I'd love to know if it's permitted well they don't own it anymore because it's a new owner right right but if the property owns oh if it's part of the property if it's part of the property doesn't look like it do don't yeah it just when I was there it looked like it belonged with the house like it it feels like it's just right there sounds like it might be a a long-term use that was either owed or ignored by the Oyster River who whatever Association yeah things were different back in the day right that's true but otherwise I think this plan looks fine because you only have your staircase that we're really looking at and you've planted plans that make sense area on the other side yep it's the flood zone oh yeah flood uh I'm just happy to see a new a new development proposal it doesn't include a swimming pool yes I haven't seen one in a long time Janet do you have anything nope at all okay I just want to say one thing it was lovely how well staked it was I really did go places today that I was really frustrated so I was grateful that this one was Stak okay we do have a hand i'm GL to hear it we haven't had too many projects in front of you lately but I made sure our survey staff reviewed the the checklist that's included so I'm I'm glad to hear they did their job I appreciate it and we do have a hand up it's Peter Van M something so go ahead this is uh Peter vanson I live at 58 Horseshoe Lane uh 58 Horseshoe Lane is also within the Oyster River Hills Association uh the people that uh own the uh that little strip of land between the road and the back of the lot um I guess that the west side of the lot um I just want to comment if it's okay on you know kind of the the the state of M maintenance of the property since uh the new owner took took took ownership it's essentially been neglected for I think a couple of years since that Phil pal the prior owner moved out and the property was sold by our state um I I don't know the history of the shed um I was involved in in the process of hiring a surveyor to stake uh the the association property and it is at least from our view pretty clear that that shed is on Association property um it may have been used by phis and her husband Whit in her family before then but it it's not it's not theirs okay um my my general my general comment is just that you know I I would hope that um everyone really is on top of the the new owner and as this project proceeds um as uh at least my my recent experience with dis owner has been that uh he hasn't me very careful and very mindful of the concerns that neighbors have had um so that that that's really all I I that um hasn't been great nebor so your concerns are unfortunately not things that we necessarily address we take care of the area that's within conservation um commissions perview which is up to 100 ft from the wetlands or any water so um I appreciate and yes it is uh in disrepair but um most of the property we do not have jurisdiction over just so that you're aware but we are very diligent about the part that we do have uh jurisdiction for and I thank you for your comments thank you thank you thanks um anybody have anything else I one more thing to add go ahead the wildlife didn't mind it in disrepair so no I'm sure they didn't um so can I can I add one more comment on the wildlife sure um so the prior owner um used to feed the wildlife um including s feed yes feed including feeding coyotes and uh raccoons which you know I don't know if there's a law against it but it's certainly not good practice in terms of promoting the welfare of the animals um so I think that was a long time ago um thank you uh well well those was cost away about two years ago so it was about to change years ago it was when um thank you Lauren Laura her daughter was so we just need a little more detail I think on your planting um and seems like we can go to an order um can you get us something with some more detail yep we can plan to meet um next week's submission deadline um that would be November or October 30th or 31st for revised materials yes for the November 5th are you saying yeah for the November 5th hearing or six is it six yeah six oh I'm on the wrong year I've got the 2025 okay then November 6th um I guess we can probably get that done by November 6th I think so so I think we could go to an order for November 6th and you wanted to be sure the plans were the same as zoning gut yeah but well actually and Zing you are seeing zoning December 5th correct I am not sure of that date but again I can confirm with survey so maybe um since well they tell us you're being hurt zoning told us you're being heard on December 5th so how about we do for December 11th since then you will have been heard by zoning you'll have time to rectify between what the plan that was given to zoning versus us and we'll know if zoning had any concerns or changes before we draft an order does that sound okay that sounds reasonable to me yes it does okay then December 11th I move that we continue 170 Vineyard Avenue to December 11th 2024 for an order of conditions second okay Paul I Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay so we'll see you uh the 11th but if you could get in the new plans that would be terrific the sooner the better yep understood thank you very much everyone thank you all right Katherine next okay notice of intent at parcel h13 Captain nlls White map 11c parcel h13 for minglewood Homes Incorporated D SE number 10- 3698 construction of a dwelling within the riverfront area and the buffer zone to a coal bank and construction of a swimming pool within the buffer zone to a Coastal Bank good afternoon David Clark Clark engineering on behalf of minglewood Tim Smith is in the audience from minglewood and there's Jen um so we made some changes since the last time U per the request of the commission uh we eliminated that wall off the northeast corner of the house thank you we shifted the gate um so that doesn't interfere with the tree off the uh northwest corner of the house we added a retaining wall along the driveway to act as kind of like a barrel block to and save that large oak tree um those are the fundamental changes on the site plan and Jen is here to talk about everything else well almost everything okay hey Jen afternoon everyone denen Crawford Crawford Land Management um so the items that we were able able to revise on our plan um we did extrapolate the rest of that 200t stream buffer so the entire Center Island um of that private road uh was in there so we provided um more information for you on that piece of it uh unfortunately all of the native trees that we inventoried in there are basically right along the edge of the um edge of the pavement almost and the uh I don't know if it's a sycamore or a Norway maple but the maple that's growing a pretty much dead center in it uh is an invasive species so that is uh just a wonderful happy coincidence um but we did provide you with specifications to replant that Center Island um with uh three native trees in the middle um and then a smattering of smaller shrubs so that the visibility wouldn't um be blocked and then to keep those edges uh all all with that metal mix um so that was the additions that we provided for the center Island um we did add onto our plan um a line along with a note along the mitigation area for the split rail fence we also added a note um for the transition between the more we'll call it formalized lawn area to the um Meadow areas uh for that steel edging that you had asked uh make sure it gets on our plans so we did that um we I think made any updates uh as David outlined to trees to be saved um and updated all of our tree schedule and tree replacement schedule according to uh what happened between the center Island in then in conjunction with what was happening within the limit of work um I believe that that I think that that wraps up the revisions that we needed to make to our plans um Dylan if I'm forgetting anything chime in um but with that I will be quiet and let you ask questions can I can I just if you'd please let we usually have the Commissioners go and then we entertain any questions comments from anybody else thanks um did anybody else any of Representatives Ian did you want to speak at all or you want us to just go to questions and comments I think just going to questions and comments is great okay well my first comment Jen is the tree removal plan they're all still marked as being removed the you know there's no change there's no change everything's still being removed moved um you know which I love the retaining wall was pulled back thing but four five three you know um there's so many 28 they're all still being removed so those are items that when um honestly they're not necessarily up to me so to speak with the tree removal plan they are necessitated by uh the construction and construction uh methodologies that are put in place so I believe that Tim and David went through everything and if there was a way that those could be avoided or that things could be pulled back um then then we did that and we made those changes in conjunction with the team um in terms of four and five um I don't know if I have any specific comments related to those two trees I believe that they are um actually is Tim there with you in person yes he is is you were very nice about how you did that I have to [Laughter] say well I think you have a better handle on the you know on the construction methodology and and on that particular area and the reason why you still felt that we needed to you know be able to take those why those needed to be taken out um the my role is less on the tree removal side and more on the how are we mitigating for it side all right but it's and Tim I'll let you speak but um one of the things is the the plan tree removal plan has to be modified based off of whatever is agreed upon so right now everything did is still being removed right well we with with the foundation we have to have an overd there we got to work around the building those three trees that we removed the stone wall are very small trees they're only 3 in in diameter they're a couple scraggly Pine a little Pine and a couple of little Oaks so they have to come out of the way or we can't that they're in our way there to be able to do this project um on the front side here with the trees we put that retaining wall into and change the grading to protect some trees out on that aspect too so we're trying to do everything you're asking for but I got to be able to work around the site to do this and I've got three trees that I have to take that are pretty small and we'll replant the way that you require us to replant them and mitigate right and but I'm not seeing any trees were removed from the tree removal plan so they were they were so like for instance on the plan that's on the screen right now that 12 and 1 half inch uh Black Oak where the small retaining wall was added to protect the root zone so that was that was removed from our tree removal plan so to speak because now it's existing and remaining the difference there weren't actually that many differences in the numbers and that's because of that Center Island area because unfortunately we added trees to the center Island because now we have that two the between the 100 and 200 foot buffer and that's where um those trees around the edges came into place so we included that on our tree inventory plan so even though there were a couple less from the main portion of the property we did have to add a couple more because of the center Island so the overall numbers maybe didn't um didn't change or didn't change a whole lot but that might be that might be an explanation as to why I guess maybe I was hoping to see those still in the plan that are being saved and specified as saved rather than being removed but okay okay um I'm still not real sure I understand why some of these a Black Oak um number 28 it's in the middle of what's marked as a naturalized area just be seated with Meadow mix and yet it's being removed um and it seems pretty far away from your foundation and all of that and I understand you do have to have have a hole bigger than what the house is and all of that um you know even the circle I know you said number 44 the one in the middle had to be removed it's a maple and it has to be removed because it's not native well or that's why we're removing it because it's not native we'll keep I'd keep it in there it's a beautiful tree yeah I mean I just if you're okay with it being left in there pry big tree it's 10 and a half in just taking it out because it was a non-native okay yeah no I mean I get taking things out that aren't native but you know at some point you kind of go but with that tree what is that tree going to do that's going to be bad for the environment right exactly and it's big um so I mean that's one okay um and then I had down there was going to be a second limit of work and I don't know I don't remember why I had that written I think that Tim had said no to that you prefer to identify the trees that were coming out and the trees that were saving rather than creating extra limits of work absolutely okay that's what I thought good I I couldn't remember why I had that um and then did we add like milk weed I'm trying to find all these plans um I don't know that I did add that to my seed yeah can you put can you put your can you put your uh planting list up there it's not there the mitigation yes I remember that that slipped through the cracks thank you so much there's no milke weed but there is not there certainly can be good no yep that was just an oversight on my part I apologize n that's fine um I'm going to let others go I've got so many notes go ahead anybody Janet okay um I'm just just gonna say I'm disappointed that um what I'd hoped that some of these very large native black Oaks could have been saved I still see them not threatening the structure or the the pool or the patio but in areas where the grading is changing and I had hoped that some of those would be saved so it's it's a disappointment disint um it's a disappointment because also I hop that that that might have changed some of the mitigation that was proposed because I think that it was I think I expressed The View that it was felt like it was too much too too much I mean I hate to say this but too much jammed into a very small area into uh less than a quarter acre something like 27 trees and 140 shrubs um but I noticed that the mitigation area has has decreased in size from 7334 Square ft to 6920 a 414 square foot decrease Jen I wonder if you could tell us why that dropped um actually Dylan might be to tell you better why that particular number dropped I know one of the things that was on the original plan is where that 50ft buffer follows along the coastal Bank um originally I believe our um it was either the limit of work followed that 50 foot buffer line or our restoration area followed that 50ft buffer line and the limit of work is being kind of pulled back there's that little triangle area so I know that we reduced our um I know we reduced some of our numbers because we were only it back to the limit of work there's no reason to do restoration work outside of the limit of work there so I know that that was uh either the limit work changer it was more of a housekeeping item um Dylan may have a little bit better insight as to how the numbers game played out and he just reminded me that we actually we did add um esus tuberosa to our uh seed mix it is on our U planting plan listed in our seed mix so okay oh um and yeah Dylan Lance Crawford Land Management um the change in the mitigation area is just based on the um the what was required for the uh lot coverage that we had in this plan but the coverage didn't change and in fact it increased slightly by 27 Square fet so why would there be the uh walkway and driveway showed a 27 squ foot increase from the last plan that we saw m so I don't see that that the coverage wouldn't justify a decrease in the mitigation right there may have been a change that we didn't pick up in our Cel so we can um we can uh double check that with Clark's office and make sure that the mitigation requirement is met okay okay yeah well can I can I just add it looks like we're getting close here to to make a deal um looks like the contractor un fortunately he's a little disappointed that some things weren't um noted on here about M the size of ID you know mitigation area we're down to a few trees to save I mean I let's you know I think we can you know this is what the third time we've been here I hate to see these things go this long I I'm a big believer in this cutting the red tape so you know we're getting we're getting close so you know and we've been trying we we we even worked on this would be our fourth meeting we even worked on yeah so I mean you know we're down now to the no it's your third cuz we had 28 we but the first meeting was no Quorum this is pushing us out doesn't count because we couldn't hear I understand it's you know it's a frustrating thing and we're trying to you know we we do Elise did do a gigantic effort and getting an order ready in case so I just don't think we're quite there um I think at this point anybody else here have I think at this point you're more than welcome to speak you sit at the table if you want yes you have to you have speak into the microphone turn that microphone on and we'll put on the make sure the green lights on and identify yourself of course um my name is Evert housing uh I'm the neighbor so I'm looking forward to the to the new neighbors um I just wanted to suggest that uh on the on the what's it called on the border line the property line that we could put some native seedar all the way through to take that into consideration um just for the sake of privacy and also because the amount of stuff that is being um you know um that is going so I just want to put that point out there and for you to to consider can you show us where your property line is we're right here okay okay I noticed that on your side do you have anything on your border well we do couple trees you need to speak there unfortunately sorry sorry you see when they when when you do a mitigation it's supposed to look like a natural setting it's not supposed to be a soldier row of of Evergreens to screen you know you know from from them to you but nothing stops you from putting a screening in I understand that and that's but I was just saying as we're looking at this it might we might have uh an opportunity to do together what we could do you know mutually so there's a mutual benefit here so okay right um so Jen can you tell us what there there are mitigation trees it looks like or other I'm not sure what they are along that property line do you know what they are um there's a mix of different things um it looks like there is uh some American Beach and um some service Berry um let's see yeah American Beach and service it looks like it's what's there I mean we can we can move species around I mean um I mean you have tupos you have FG American Beach mhm I mean you know you service berries all along the border yeah there's 11 trees being proposed there's quite a bit going right down that border I only see two and there's still the the vegetated 50 Foot buffer which is um which has Pitch Pine and Oak in it right so so can I ask you a question sure so we're a lot of us would like to see some of those trees saved but they have offered us a plan that kind of accounts for those trees and they've done the doubles and whatever when do we say okay we accept your plan because you did what you we asked you to do I think we're we're because what do what do you actually want them to do what would you like them to change I'm not speak very I don't have a lot I need yeah I don't I don't know as long as the milked was in um it yeah and we have lighting is on one of the plans um with some detail about it so that helped we have the detail on the circle work um you've marked the you know edgings or split small low ref fences and all of that um we does sound like I need to confirm my mitigation calculation with um what is on Clark's plan and um I will make sure that our mitigation area meets the requirement can I just ask so I'm not exactly sure yeah how that got AR R uh Janna which number trees were you concerned with which which number I'm I'm generally concerned with the very large 16in which number number 30 number 35 number um what 28 28 2 35 what do we got people could we save 35 uh I mean you know 44 is being saved I know that y I mean I just think some of these if they're if they're not where you need to remove to for the foundation it it doesn't make sense like 35 absolutely and 28 yep there you go baby that's we are this is how you do this is how you do the deals those are those are there they're there for the we're putting in a um the wells Ian say put that well in there so that we've changed the grading a little bit so hopefully 35 is at the bottom of that we can work around that and then 28 is some of the gring going on there but we will you know how about in my way of construction it's not in my way of foundation right how about 21 is that need a you need a careful operator careful get a good good careful operator in there yeah no I have one yeah you'll be fine can we do 21 no well well 21 would be a problem in 10 years yeah so we'd be back before trying to cut it down yeah I have to keep trying and yelling numbers how about eight pretty much everything you ask for how about eight she wants about eight number eight it's within the limit of work that's the whole reason seven no that's we we're pretty good we we're planting what you're asking for and doubling them up and on the I have to grade it correctly I can't I don't you don't want window well tree Wells everywhere on these things because the animals will fall in there that's why you did this retaining a section so that we don't end up with something like that very good the animals will fall in so no to seven and eight I'm trying so Cheryl I'm going to speak to your question yeah because my my heart Karen knows my yard I have lots of trees and Peter Ford built had my house built a long time ago when you look at a tree with a 16 1/2 foot size and you think about it being cut down and mitigated for with a little little bean little little teeny Bean that's going to grow and maybe my great grandchildren will see it at a 16 and a half that's what hits my heart it's not my father was in construction I understand trees have to go down it's just the complete removal of them and it and the debate is worth it and it's not that we don't want minglewood to build a gorgeous house like you always do it's the part of that asset and it's canopy right it's a native canopy and it's a large mature native canopy and it's you know holding a whole lot of carbon and we we should do and we are doing everything we can to save them and we understand you know yes we understand clearing of a lot this is a a natural lot the trees are going to have to go to build a house but it's our job to try to minimize the impacts and the damage to the to the Natural Resources so so everyone that's saved is a is another little win and I think can I just go ahead respond I think that knowing the rationale of what you're fighting for makes it make more sense I do agree we are incredibly close to an order because we've already started it for you hoping that maybe we could get there have to go to zon they um they don't have to go to zon all we don't have to do anything do it does no it doesn't this the s November 21st that's for the staircase what staircase we haven't filed that we haven't filed it yet oh we knew that would be coming yeah Robert asked about that we had to go to zoning board of appeals first Robert asked us in the very beginning and we said yes we'd be following up with a separate application for that I thought I asked that yeah had we had known that the beginning the first meeting was going to be delayed because of the Forum we probably would have added it to the plan but because of the zoning aspect we wanted to get going on the permitting of the house um and follow and then follow up with the stairs so you going to zoning November 21st is not about what we're hearing correct no staircase down the bank coming later the pathway there there's a path I'd like to I would love to figure out a way that we can so all right so this is we just need the mitigation calculation checked Jen so can we get that to you and not have to come to another meeting yeah oh well that's fine well we're going to be back the first meeting in November for them to vote on the order okay so you have to vote on the order yeah in order we're not voting to issue the order today it's not ready and you haven't received it to review weren't going to vote on the order today okay to add some stuff all right so can we so we pretty much when you tell us what you want we go back and everybody does what you asked for so we're going to add the the um the couple of uh the uh milk milkweed y you want some milked added in here J in there they said there it's on there oh she found it okay so that's already there so we're going to recalculate your so the only thing is the mitigation calculation by what I I think so I think we we've already Elise has already started the order and two trees take two trees we we can in the order say that those trees are not to be remov I'll have 28 and 44 in the order on the plan that they're standing 28 28 35 and 44 oh there's three three where's 44 or the in the middle of the circle that's a good compromise right so um I think we can go to an order and because we already have begun it um I think we can have it for the fifth or four what is it the fourth the fifth six God I won't get it yet so um I think we can have a motion to go to the sixth I move that we continue I never remember the name of this partial h13 Captain noll's way to November 6th for an order of conditions second all right Paul hi police hi oops Janet I Eric I gerl I and I say I I was just checking to see if you were paying attention not really thank you very much okay okay thank you thank you thank you thank you for saving three trees yes it means a lot um okay Katherine okay notice of intent at 594 old Harbor Road map 16h Russell 10 a-7a for Amanda p and Christina D van Fleck invasive plant management and restoration good afternoon Mike Tannis blue flx um I'll start with an apology for not staking the site so that was well I it was I we kind of harder to get to it is a beautiful site yeah it's a great spot and thank you for doing this work CU it'll be even better of course um so the property at 594 old Harbor Road on the western shore of Pleasant Bay north of turn Island uh resource areas on site include Coastal Dunes salt marsh Coastal Bank land subject to Coastal storm Flowage and the associated buffers also according to nesp there are estimated and priority habitats of rare species on the property the top of the Coastal Bank is vegetated with Native Bayberry and Beach Plum and non-native crab apple trees additional native vegetation in the buffer zones excuse me include Oak black cherry Eastern red cedar and Arrowood viburnum the bank is in invaded by shrub honeysuckle common privet multifloral Rose Asiatic Bittersweet black swallow wart and Porcelain Berry there is also a large stand of Japanese knotweed on the bottom of the Coastal Bank and in the coastal Dune so the Project's main goal is to treat remove and manage the knotweed and the other invasive species in the bank and the Dune resource areas and restoring the areas with uh Native with 27 shrubs of native Bayberry and Beach Plum so the invasive species will be cut flesh with the ground treated with systemic herbicide and left to decompose in the ground and then the area will be seated with a mix of native grasses and wild flowers and then the shrubs will be planted I got little out of order there um the knotweed will be treated by being moan twice throughout the growing season and then treated with a systemic herbicide when it's flowering in the fall and once that knotweed is 80% controlled the area will be plugged with Native beach grass and any questions yeah where do I sign how long will it take how many seasons will it take do you think to to Really eradicate or get control of the knotweed uh we usually we usually say five years um of each year you mow it each year we cut it and then inject it and it comes back and you do the same thing yes it'll be a foler application on the leaves so we cut it you don't inject you put it on the leaves when it's that big of a stand when we get it under control after the first year or so then we're able to treat each one okay individually wow but yeah a it's it's the hardest one I know of well maybe frag mes but yeah I had a question when you plug it do you have to remove the old roots or do you just plug around it we would just plug around it at that point yeah cuz the roots are pretty very you know clumpy and it's it's such a enclosed site you know such a cluster it's going to be nothing but Woody Roots yeah again we won't be plugging until it's roughly 80% under control so hopefully at that point 80% of the roots will be dead too and we'll be plugging it in the gaps yeah makes sense you know do you have thep letter yet we do not have it yet okay and that one large area with the knotweed that we've been talking about how are you getting to that because I assume there has to be an access path somewhere to get to it we so when you right at the end of the driveway there's it's tall now it's 4T but it's all golden rod and so we we have just been walking through that but we would mow a little walking path through that and then just replant that path that you've made I'm assuming you'd go from one of your other um areas that you know um that are above it down to this bigger knotweed because then you're not you know making as larger path someplace else right yeah right in between we kind of left that area open in between the two green areas where that's just naturally the easiest way to walk down there okay so that's how you'll go yeah all right and then you just replant whatever was there yes so in the the two green areas to the West that's uh that's where we'll be planting there's a lot of vines and stuff climbing up native there's a in the winter when I was there it was easier to see but there's a lot of like seedling Bay Berry and stuff already growing back okay so our hope is once we remove the vines it'll kind of fill in and we'll just plug in the gaps with more shrubs great okay anybody else anything else go there's a patch of English Ivy by the house that's within our area is it possible to get rid of that um we it's kind of contained because it's surrounded by Lawns so it's we didn't deem it to be urgent at the moment and the customer might like it who knows [Music] yeah the customer isn't always right ination it's it's fine so it it is contained but it never hurts to ask anybody else then I think we can go to an order nobody has any major issues nope so let's see how soon do you want the have two weeks uh as soon as possible November 6th sure yeah okay I move that we canit coming is coming sorry I just want to jump in uh ideally we would love to be able to get a treatment on the knotweed this season um our concern was because we haven't received the no take letter from nhp yet whether or not we would have to delay the order issuance of the order until we get the I I'm presuming we're going to get a not take from nhp but they do have to review it right so I do you think that's coming soon well they I mean I they have 90 days to review the um to review the project so I I would love to think it would come soon and I can certainly send Emily an email and ask her if she thinks they'll be able to turn it around quickly but I'm I'm not sure so how about we try and save for November 6th and and crossers what's the outside date that for not weed treatment in the fall so I it first Frost so we're still good and not weed still flowering pretty vigorously we like to treat it after it's done flowering because we don't want pollinators actively on it so I don't know in this particular area I haven't I haven't been there I don't know if Mike if it's flowering right now um I didn't see anything no it's not I notice so as long as we can get it before Frost um that would be great so November 6 would be fantastic and if we can um get that no take letter from nhp that would be great exactly okay thank you all right well we'll we'll have our fingers crossed and we'll get it set for November 6th and then see where we go from there so I need a motion I move that we continue 594 old Harbor Road for an order of conditions to November 6 2024 second Paul hi Janet hi Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay thank you um Katherine okay moving on to the certificates of compliance the following is a request for certificate of compliance at at 771 Fox Hill Road and Easy Street each area maps 12 l and m 12m Parcels 12 and Easy Street for Easy Street Association D SE number 10- 2876 proposed Bank stabilization okay right we have somebody here Katherine okay go ahead I actually don't have a presentation it's a request for for the COC I'm just here to answer any questions if you have some all right Catherine for the record I'm Mark Burgess with chauffer Consulting hi Mark hi all right Katherine go ahead and okay so give our thoughts I recommend continuing this application until we can get some additional submitt for this based on some special conditions in the order of condition and the additional items would include any available pictures of the site post construction post stor FS post nourishment to um a report to summarize the work that has been done on the site since the installation of the fiber rols as one of the special conditions was to submit annual reports and uh we haven't had any submitted and we haven't had any of the pictures submitted uh number three would be installation of beach grass on the Dune because there was it doesn't appear any Beach Grass was planted and that was on the plan that was approved with the order of conditions and then additional information on the removal of those Rock steps that are at the bottom of the Timber stairs as we did not see those as being permitted with the permitted Timber stairs that are there got that I have it I'd like to respond if possible go ahead um so I was involved with the project from the beginning design and permitting and I did periodic inspections through Construction after that I I wasn't involved um the applicants after speaking with them so the fiber rolls have always remained covered like they were supposed to so in all these almost 10 years now the fiber rolls have never had to have any maintenance um planting on where the renourishment is done they renourish almost every year because they lose it every year because they're right across from the break so they've been actively renourishing it almost every year not quite but almost every year in doing that planting beach grass on that part of the sand that's going to wash away every year is Not Practical it takes three years for it to root and get developed and it's just going to get wiped out every year um available pictures there's some people in the association there's only two original owners left so I supplied some pictures after a storm but uh in 2015 but we're not really aware of any other pictures that it were taken um they could search for them but in reality it is what it is what it is the the systems maintained um very well it it's performing exactly as designed um and that that also would go with reports I I know that it was in the order I was I wasn't contracted to do reports I didn't know whether the applicant was doing them themselves or not having said that I think the the track record of how the site has been taken care of is kind of your report they they've done a really good job in maintaining this installation they've notified the town every time they've done nourishment I mean they just they this is one of the ones that has gone it's gone right whether or not it's been well documented it's gone right um there is a closing at stake I know that's not your issue but the truth of the matter is there's a clo a property closing at stake to to close out this order so if there's any way we can negotiate something to move it forward uh everyone would appre appreciate that can you speak to the rocks at the end of the stairs that should have been permitted and were not yeah I noticed that in pictures um I mentioned it to the to the applicants they actually tried to remove them and they were so heavy they broke a wheelbarrow I said well how'd you get them there in the first place and they just they just rolled them down so they tried to remove them at my at my uh suggestion they tried to remove them because I said hey those aren't in the picture they need to go they tried so that without bringing in a piece of equipment which would do more damage I think than the than the steps they uh they weren't able to remove them even though I I asked them to now and practically speaking the the steps are there because the beach has dropped a little bit over time so they added those steps to be to get safe access to the beach they're not I know they're not on the plan I totally get that but they're not really doing any harm either yeah and all of that could be addressed if if they're allowed to maintain the stairs as part of this certificate of compliance then that could be taken care of when they when they do that which is imminent Katherine your thoughts um the stairs and if any of the stairs are going to be uh rebuilt in kind or preferably a seasonal staircase that would need a separate notto 7 tent application but I would like to respond to the beach grass comment because I I know that a lot of times planting Beach Grass low on a nourish Banker Dune doesn't get well established and and I agree that it shouldn't be planted at the bottom um on this in this case I was out there and the abutting property has very wellestablished vegetation on their nourished area so it'd be nice um or I I believe that if it was planted towards the top it could establish itself down the bank over time which is I believe what has happened at the abing property okay the Katherine the pictures that I sent you from 2015 um I know that's not the site right so the pictures from 2015 showed a complete removal of all of the sediment and a vertical scar of of all of the sediment that was ever placed on the property so that could certainly happen again um if we get lucky and it doesn't happen in three years then some beach grass would get established um which property is that that doesn't even look like the stairway that was there no oh where where is that yeah yeah that's the problem that's what you provided the stairs that are down is just an old rickety old stair going down there like some something out of Dr Seuss yeah honestly I haven't been I haven't been there either and I should have come on my way here today but I will agree though that on the left hand side of the stairs you could see the recent I I I don't know may maybe on the very top Beach Grass might grow on it but it looks like it gets hammered all the time and I mean if you've been doing this for 20 years I'd say you're pretty good Steward here on the property um I do I know that uh there's one Gent in there selling the property I know it doesn't really pertain to this but I do sympathize that you can't sell the property right with this I would imagine this going on they don't like it and and as far as those two stones on the bottom can't we just Mark two stones on the bottom of a plan and update it or something I mean you know just I don't know what to say about this is yeah I know one of one of the things that concerns me in in this discussion and trust me is a good thing and the track record is a important thing but if you don't have the track record documented what is it what is the track record we don't have the photos and we don't have the documentation and it's a pain in the neck to need it but I feel for the next owners who will have to go through it next somebody needs to take responsibility and complete the work um on the documentation that was required in the order Jim Jim okono will be the remaining original owner and he he I asked him about that yesterday because Mr Gail is the one selling his property he's so there now there'll be one original owner uh in in the last 10 years um he's not planning on going anywhere any time so they could they should resume or or start Annual photos and picture taking and you could always if you made that a condition as part of the certificate of compliance that would be an ongoing condition condition and if they didn't do it then you can issue a violation so it's an enforceable condition bill go ahead you have your hand up and you're muted Bill's Bill Bill lfi oh thank you my apologies for being m is not being there uh yeah I represent the Gales and in the upcoming sale and I just wanted to Echo both what Mr helbert said and also what Mark just said in terms of a certificate of compliance for the property at 771 Fox Hill Road could certainly have an ongoing condition and as uh as Mark indicated Jim o Connell I mean the the applicant was actually the Easy Street Association it's just that the gaal's property is what's at at the immediate issue trying to have a sale a week from tomorrow so obviously uh I understand that the track record isn't supported with the apprach rate documentation but the site speaks for itself in terms of the way they've kept it so if the commission could see its way clear to issuing a certificate of compliance that would make the Gail's lives a lot easier thank you and I got a wonderful history lesson while I was there that's that's the uh launching for the uh dribles yeah for the airplanes they launched it right off of that street back in the day um y Katherine thoughts um I believe we could issue the certificate of compliance with my thought is if we could get if you could get any records from tww Nickerson just showing yes and they they should have some sort of records of just showing you know how much has been placed over the years um and having those as on the ongoing conditions I do have I think it's five or six of them just with the nourishment and with the pictures um the stairs I I still think the stairs have to they were originally a separate order of conditions um and if you don't didn't want to remove them you could just include them with a new notice of intent for stairs which also stairs have to go through zba so I don't believe we could just approve it through this certificate of compliance um we could issue that um certificate of compliance just would like any records that TW Nickerson has for the nourishment um and I still would like at least I think a little bit of Beach Grass at the top I agree at the bottom it doesn't make sense but at the top it can start naturalizing itself down the bank over time I've seen that happened so could we add that into the certificate of compliance as an ongoing is that they need to plant the beach grass at the top and also that um we are not saying I don't know how to word this but that the the RO the rocks at the end of the stairs were not permitted unfortunately an excavator won't reach down there to pick them up yeah and yeah they just wouldn't be able to be included with this certificate of compliance because they weren't um part of this notice of intent that would be just something we would have to deal with separately so this certificate of compliance could be issued with all the ongoing conditions request for information from tww Nickerson over over their time that they've done it um and the beach grass can be one of the ongoing maintenance conditions because it was in the uh order I was just wondering if we needed to say something about the rocks at the bottom of the stairs so that if slash when they came for an noi for the stairs to do work on those it it's not assumed that they were permitted mhm there could probably be a note in the the I don't know how we would want to do that if I could chairman bfield sure if I could you know you you will we will all understand that the rocks have not been permitted and that if in the event there is any further requests for anything it could be raised at that time as well yeah yeah because you if you remove the stairs then you can you can run a little track machine down there and and because you're going to disturb that area anyway pick them up and put them ride them back up or include them in the next application and be done and not have to move them or make the stairs longer oh yeah that's even better yeah yeah I the stairs just have to be a separate so you'll so you'll also include the the conditions that are in the order now for ongoing uh reporting and photographs you because I didn't put those in my letter but um you will oh believe me we'll have ongoing conditions absolutely Catherine's got those thank you thank you all right um mad chair did you want me to list those conditions now so that Mark can write them and have them as note would you like to know what they ongoing conditions will be or just having them in the certificate of compliance with the ongoing if Catherine has them teed up then I'm happy to hear them okay go ahead Katherine okay I just just the numbers um it's special conditions A9 A1 a12 a13 A14 and a16 okay I think those are all of them all right then I guess we can approve this certificate of compliance so I move that we approve the certificate of compliance for 771 Fox Hill Road in Easy Street second Paul hi Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I all right next one thank you thank you okay thank you very much actually thank you I appreciate how much this Bo I've watched this whole hearing and I haven't been here in a couple of years bless me I haven't been here for about two years but uh it's an entirely missed us that's entirely different board it's a welcome change so thank you thank you all right Katherine next okay request for a certificate of compliance at 4 43 shatak Lane Ernest a Wallen III map 15c parcel 14-4 SE 10- 3343 proposed elevated walkway catwalk and your thoughts and I recommend the issu issuance of the certificate of compliance on this one great does anybody else have any comments or questions Perfect all right we can have a motion I move that we approve the certificate of compliance for 43 shat Lane second Paul I Janet Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay next one okay request for certificate of compliance at 146 Strong Island Road for Chris ditri map 13m parcel 42- c45 Mast epse number 10- 3530 removal of dwelling sewage Disposal system and Hardscape construction of dwelling pool and Hardscape request is for a partial certificate of compliance okay um and your thoughts and so this one was discussed with Paul Whitman who's out today um the conservation agent and he recommends the issuance of the partial certificate of compliance with allowing additional time for the vegetation to establish a Healthy Growth okay I think we can go to a motion well for a partial all right well I just want to okay here I am Mr easy on a lot of stuff but this one here down the road um I mean I I think that everything is is well watered um I noticed that the the lawn is very green it's supposed to be uh temporary irrigation I can tell the lawn is heavily fertilized with nitrogen herbicide maybe pesticide maybe uh fungicide um and the whole idea is to uh to irrigate temporarily to get it established and it's beyond that I I looked at the plants and they all seem to be fine with me and it's all the irrigation still there so down the road when this comes back um I expect the uh the the temporary irrigation to be removed yeah I think that that's the part that they're not asking for a coc for I can see why yeah so okay yes I agree it has to be removed and when they come for the full we we will deal with that then okay but I totally agree um we can do a motion thanks for getting it into the record I move that we oh ahead I'm sorry pardon I'm sorry I was hoping to stay seated um John O'Reilly representing Chris Dietrich who's also in the audience we had given uh staff three ongoing conditions I didn't know if you wanted to incorporate it they will be incorporated okay yes um when the um cordinator of wetlands and Katherine you know received that they Incorporated into the what we issue we just don't get into the details here we don't have to thank you all set all set I move that we approve a partial certificate of compliance for 146 Strong Island Road second Paul I Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay Catherine thank you okay request for certificate of compliance at 90 Squanto Drive map 10c parcel 21- E4 for 90 Squanto Drive LLC Mass D number SE 10- 3633 tight tank installation and I recommend the certificate of compliance for this one great thank you so need a motion I move that we approve the certificate of compliance for 90 Squanto Drive second Paul I jet I leise I Eric I Cheryl I and I say I okay next I think it's our minutes minutes oh I don't see minutes on yeah we have three well I can do it Katherine we have minuts to be approved August 7 2024 August 14th 2024 and September 4th 2024 did anybody have any modifications that weren't put into any of them well this will go quick if Bob's not [Laughter] here okay now when he listens to this I'm sorry Bob no offense if you're listen listening he probably I'm sure he isn't who listens to himself no but when he listens when he comes back to listen to the meeting oh so now you're on record he could take a joke sir um b b have any modifications and I forgot to check who we I I can't I'm abstaining from two so we can't yeah we can't put them all together but can we Bunch any of them I'm out September yeah I know out the two augusts so okay so we have to do them separately I'm here I'm here for the two August so let's do the two augusts then because well but let's see August 14th Eric and Janet have to not be on right and August 7th Janet and Elise so we have to do them all separate all right okay so can we have a motion for August 7th I move that we approve the minutes for August 7th 2024 second Paul Janet abstain Elise abstain Eric I and Cheryl I and I say I if you're absent you can't oh all right you have to abstain so now August 14th you're going to abstain but you can second go ahead I move that we approve the minutes for August 14th 2024 second Paul I Janet abstain Elise I Eric stain Cheryl I and I say I okay now let's go to September 4th I move that we approve the minutes for September 4th 2024 and Paul and Cheryl have to abstain so did you second second Paul abstain Janet I Elise I Eric I Cheryl abstained and I say I Yay done we did it okay are there Katherine any further items to be brought before us there are no unforeseen items today yes so we need one more motion well then I move that we adjourn the meeting second Paul hi Janet hi Elise I Eric hi Cheryl hi and I say I sayara we are out of here oh my God [Music] [Music]