##VIDEO ID:eCIBg-FFoho## e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] a there we go good morning ladies and gentlemen hi I'm Frank massina and announcements that we need to make uh please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly Hereafter for scheduled and ond demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting please notify the chairman pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29 2023 signing of the acts of 23 and extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General law 30 a20 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chadam historical commission is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately ass assess the access the proceedings as required for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to join the meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 508 945 4410 conference ID 460 692 498 hashtag or by joining the meeting online via Microsoft teams to the link posted on the agenda well while this is a live broadcast and simal cast on chadam TV despite our best efforts we will not be able to provide for Real Time access we'll post a record of the meeting on the town's website as soon as possible thank you very much as no one is recording the meeting we will proceed the first order of business is a roll call Bob leer here Steve Burling game here Nancy bar Nancy's absent Stephanie Hamilton here Sandy Porter here Janet Tennyson here Robert Stevens here and the chair is here okay we have uh one regular member of the historical commission absent and as result Robert Stevens who who is our alternate will participate and will be a voting member of the commission okay any other questions speaking of that by the way we have one open position available for the members of the public if anyone's interested in joining the commission please let Christina Basset know we're always looking for members to F out the commission all right um next item of business will be the minutes minutes of September 17th everybody has had copies any comments comments or questions could I make a motion that we accept the minute for September 17 2024 you need to press your button there could I make a motion much any other comments or questions only comment thank you very much Annie he's captured the essence of uh our brief discussions thank you okay we'll do a roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Janet yes robit yes yes and the chair vote yes thank you very much okay we have um effectively two applications uh for public hearing today um both applications are either in a national register District or in an eligible National register district and is re both both of being heard under chapter 158 which is our demolition delay bylaw and addition are being held under provisions of 12E of the cape card Commission regional policy plan of items situated in an eligible or a national registered District okay having said that the first application that we have is uh 240 24 uh the address is 369 Old Stage Harbor stage Harbor Road Again chapter 158 and in accordance with the cape card uh cape card uh commission act so you want to come forward to the lecturn and introduce yourself while you're getting yourself set this is a situation where we have a home which is located on Harbor Road which was found to be eligible as a national register district and therefore eligible for a discretionary referral to the cape card commission act in addition under chapter 158 um the home is um in both a uh a national uh an area there's an area form which you have CK which was an area for that was for determine the eligibility of the area as a national registered District you have a copy in your file which was provided by the applicant and we appreciate that in addition there's an individual form a Form B uh C 396 for the actual house the uh Captain Daniel house's house better known as the corncrib so we have two elements uh we can dispense with something very quickly because I don't think hopefully you're not going to question the uh the historical Integrity or the of the particular property as as a as an historical structure no we're not okay fine uh it's a two-step process we go for first first time we determine is this home historically significant if we determine it's not historically significant then we say thank you very much appreciate your coming and you know but then then we proceed to the next phase it is historically significance or what are we going to do about it if anything doesn't say we have to or we do but just goes through the performa so why don't we eliminate that quickly U Mr leer that's the chapter 158 piece I move that the chadam historical commission finds that the building located at 769 stage Harbor Road is historically significant because it is in whole or in part 75 years old or more is listed with an area listed within an area on this list on with it's within an area listed on the national register historic places or is subject of a pending application for such listing and the commission Al Soul finds that it's Associated to one one or more historical persons within the town history and possesses architectural value were significance in terms of its period style second got a second s second all right no other discussion in public Noe okay uh R call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Janet yes Bob yes and the chair vote Yes okay that was the simple part all right all right having said that um you know the application just for the members of the public is related to U modifications being proposed to the exterior the home specifically the uh the two chimney structures and the front doors so I just wanted to clarify that I know you're going to present it but in some cases you don't mention the doors and then you mention the doors but you know so it's really both items we're going to be talking about this morning that is correct having said that why don't you introduce yourself and we can get into the nitty-gritty okay terrific uh for the record my name is John falace I'm the vice president and project manager for Cape Associates and I'm here uh representing the owners uh Charles and Cassie uh laala um and I'd like to just introduce them um they're uh watching via zoom and uh so the lacal AES uh although the home is could be considered recently purchased by them uh have ties to chatam for uh Generations um starting with their grandmother um and they've been coming here regularly um ever since so early 1900s um Charles's uh father and Uncle have uh purchased property here uh Charles has worked summer jobs he might have even pumped your gas when he was uh working at the Getty Gas Station uh his sister taught tennis he uh volunteered at the community center uh both his uncle and his father uh Chief benefactor of the uh oium theater and I say that um only so they have maybe a different position than you but they're not um an out of towerer coming in um looking to do a tear down um in fact it's probably just the opposite so they ha have a position on what they would like to do with the property um but they purchased the property uh they've been maintaining it and they've started it which is going to be probably a lengthy and tedious restoration to the property it is historical you see them on a regular basis here so you you know are they in are you guys in Texas right now yes they they're in Texas no I just saying early good morning to you okay yeah hi yeah well we're in Austin Texas well okay what what's the time there now uh 9:41 oh okay that's not too bad okay not too B yeah we we got off at the crack of crack crack of nine well good morning so yeah thank you for uh convening the meeting we're we're uh interested in in how this proceeds I think John's very well informed on the details and uh we trust him to kind of share uh our vision for what we' like to do with the house and we're happy to answer any questions thank you very much okay so the laads they consider chadam home uh even though they have split addresses um so their ancestors may not have stepped off the Mayflower when it stopped at provinc toown but they have Generations here that's now going to great grandchildren cousins and um so deep ties to the chatam so they have a respect for the community and they're not looking to to um change that um we've acknowledged that the house is significant um but we are here today to ask permission to remove the chimneys uh we don't believe the chimneys are significant for the historic quality um and our goal is to be able to proceed with um a phase that's been in the works for well over a year um it's been a long time designing as I said um they didn't want to the the house is pretty much the same as it's been uh as you can see in the picture and if you had uh the historic picture of um the registry uh really unchanged on the outside except for wear and tear with overage um that's not the photo but if you go to the one that shows the location plan um it is on that yes so there's there's a picture of earlier days um so the chimneys are at a point uh they've deteriorated um they haven't been functioning over decades maybe a century they were covered up on the interior um there was no fireplace visible on the inside um they were never used you know a lot of old chimneys uh when they brought in heat modern heating systems Ed for the flu these chimneys have not um and unfortunately they've deteriorated to the point where they can't even be repaired they would need to be replaced um and that's something that uh my clients um do not want to do because they won't be functioning if they're replaced there's no need for um a flu in the building um we're concerned about you know so the facts are they're concerned about safety concerns uh I noted the mortar has failed it can be removed um by your finger um you know the Masons it might have been intentionally uh as they lean up as they go through the second floor it's called Coraline as you know um but with the failing more um it's even more so and um one of the chimneys has to have uh structural you can see well that picture there is requiring um outdoor supports uh to keep it in place um so to the point of significance um there are many chimneys that are not visible um from the street um houses across the town the region um there are many houses uh that don't have um chimneys visible on Stage haror Road from the road um and there are houses that were allowed to be knocked down that were historical houses and then rebuilt uh without chimneys and um you know requiring that the chimneys be um rebuilt or uh restored uh we believe would be unfair seeing how there's been a precedent set on uh homes there's several homes um the two homes not directly across the street but um almost um across the street at an angle um do not have chimneys um this requires change and changes tough um you know there's all the roofs used to be uh you know Shaker shingles there's now asphalt shingles um and we've seen that change vent pipes used to be of brass or cast iron sometimes you'll still see the cast iron but for a lot of it with the plumbing code now you see PVC we try to hide that we don't want to have that visible um but these are changes uh that have happened you mentioned the LED light in the lighthouse it's a change um probably better for the visibility maybe not so much as far as to the historic look um of that CH Lighthouse um I again we believe that the house maintains all of its significant qualities to keep it as a historic home um the design um I mentioned they've started the tedious task of restoring this home which included replacing the windows to add some comfort um the house can only be used seasonally in its condition right now there's no insulation the new windows help but they didn't uh ask to relocate or change the size or style of the windows uh they put it right in and you know it would have been nice um to maybe have bigger Windows more light these are features that a lot of qualities that people like to have today um but they're working around the exterior of the house so in their design for the Interior Space um there are minor altercations uh that are going on but everything is is working around so the exterior can be left intact to the way you see it today um the structural its bones are tired and weak and failing uh I mentioned and I appreciate those that came uh for the on-site meeting yesterday um it's weak and it's going to need a lot of uh structural improvements just so it's um up to code and not failing and we don't have uh problems I mean I've seen um trampolines have uh more stiffness than the uh law floor does up there um the client instead of just removing and putting in studs that uh are you know less than $10 each uh they're hired up us and we're going to be shimming leveling uh so the walls can be Plum and um Square it certainly would be cheaper to remove it but we're working with the old Timbers um we're salvaging the floor um so we're not just ripping it out and gutting it um and again this this adds uh to it so they should be recognized for this effort because it is going to be multiple years is uh at an expense to them uh to keep this house um in its restoration like to touch upon the doors because we mentioned that earlier today um so the doors are uh from Thermo tru's classic Craft series and it's the uh artison collection which is a collection that recognizes American Craftsmen and is a true reflection collection of historical doors and um they you know this is for that reason it's not a new door they're not coming in with modern uh lights or Windows and um the very similar Styles uh can be found in town uh even some on stage Harbor Road so at 280 stage Harbor Road the EB Harding house has a very similar door it's that house is Circa uh 1860 um then uh at 424 um stage Harbor Road uh same style they don't have the window uh it's just the one panel and then 376 stage Harbor Road uh has a similar style so um these are not replicas of the existing doors um but they are of historic design quality and it would allow the applicant to remove the ugly aluminum storm doors and I think it would add uh quality to the street there is's the aluminum stor door and it would add Comfort to them as well um so in summary it's our um our wish and our desire to proceed with this project um soon as possible as I said it's been a project that's been uh in design and uh in the works uh for well over a year now and um you know the purpose of uh us starting this fall was to have it so they could use it this winter um Charles's mom um was was residing there but uh um they've made other U um accommodations uh because you know soon it'll be cold and uh you know the house um if it stays in its condition uninsulated and so forth it'll have to be shut down and uh that's not their wish their wish is to use the home uh particularly for a family member they're not looking to improve it for Airbnb or rental or anything as I said um Charles has been coming up here ever since he was a kid um his father's been coming up here since he was a kid and um they just uh enjoy chatam they consider it at home um even though they have dual addresses uh it's been a big part of their life so they would ask that you accommodate them in these uh requests uh to remove the chimney and replace the doors thank you thank you very much um let me uh preface by saying U I don't think there's any intent here to to slow this project down in any way uh in fact if I understand that's been going on for a while we did come in with the windows replacement and I think you know was done quite expeditiously um and then the process of the chimneys which which you know tilted the uh the windmill a little bit the windows and the doors and I think you know we let you know that we couldn't do that with an administrative approval because it was a significantly uh International eligible National register district and it it it took more time to do that because you got to go through the process so you know appreciate it but you know probably it could have been the whole thing a lot faster if we just done an application in the beginning and got the whole nine yards so I just want to make it clear you know it's not our intention nor I think Community Development to attempt to to slow down and and we try to do things as expeditiously as possible and I guess that's for the owners to know uh that we're not trying to put an administrative burden on you but by the same token we do have a a structure that is uh historically significant sign significantly historically significant and was kind of one of the the key the key structures within the proposed National register District that we didn't finalize we have it elig eligible but we didn't finalize it because at the particular time there was a number of citizens did not want to proceed so I wanted to put that aside first in terms of you know what you're asking for what you're what you're talking about in terms of the chimneys uh hate to be funny about it but I guess this particular commission has kind of a a thing for chimneys okay why when we have a house that was built in the 17 and 1800s uh you know it had chimneys yes you you you you did refer to a number of homes in the area where there were no chimneys well that's true a lot of them are new homes and in some cases they're older homes which asked permission to remove them and they may have outlasted the uh the demolition delay and they they took the chimneys down so when we have an opportunity in my opinion now this is my opinion not the full commission to look at a particular property and say you know what what is architecturally significant about this property you know what's the character defining features of the property and from my perspective it's the chimneys those most chimneys are they're tall they're they're quite interesting in terms of the design and I think from my perspective you're right I mean understand you know the chimneys are old they probably have not been properly maintained they're not functional okay you know we understand that and we understand that you know you want to take them down and structurally but there are alternatives of course the chimneys could be repaired but that's a big deal okay and I'm sure that your homeowners don't want to go to that expense but there are alternates that we have done and we've done those alternates on a number of homes in chatam in fact I think there's one on stage har Road also I don't have the app the thing in front of me what was that say again 39 309 Stage haror Road is a good example you know where there was an an antique home an old home where we said wait a second could you could you put could you put a faux chimney back up and what do I mean by a faux chimney we're talking about about taking down the stone the brick the stone you know and then putting in a a faux chimney which effectively is plywood CAD in in some kind of a a structure which is looks like the the the element and and I again that's that's where we're coming from uh you know the concept that in my opinion and we'll get to the rest of the commission here focusing just on the Chim that literally is what I would call as in definition of of Cape cot commission a character defining feature so the structure can remain a contributing structure without the chimneys it looks like you know there's a house that was just built down the street where they tore down a a 19 circa 1900 home and they buil up a new house okay it's it looks exactly the same okay I have no question about that okay but it's not the same it's not it's a replica and we're not in the business of replicas when we when we can keep and maintain the original and that's that's where coming from so anyway I gave my speech I have a number of comments relative to your application of things which you didn't get exactly right in terms of what is or is not a national register but I don't want to go into that but I'd like to do at this particular point about it we'll thought at this end Robert yes uh thank you for the terrific presentation I wish they were all as thorough as you were in every aspect and I'd like to thank the uh the buyers of the property this is an amazing property it's a real treasure I've been through this myself so um and um so I I believe that the that the chimneys are really a defining feature of that house when you look at it the chimneys are the ones that really jump out at you and um it's a key feature and um uh I just think that we should collectively U explore other opportunities for trying to save those chimneys I think the owners who are online here I think they're down the road as they get deeper and deeper into this uh preservation I think they're going to look back and wish that they'd saved the chimneys um I know that U there are people preservationists that will um look at this for either no or low cost to uh give opinions that have maybe been through this dozens of times and um so that's my feeling sorry I went first so I get to thank you pass that to Bob um well I agree with Robert um I I think that the the way the presentation was prepared um it they mainly don't want the interior leftovers of the chimney and we're not proposing that that needs to be done as Frank explained a faux chimney would you can take all that chimney out which is number one goal I assume and put up a faux chimney that looks just like it that doesn't require all the substructure I guess if that's the the proper term so you're you're getting what you want and being cynical you don't want to spend the extra money to put a faux chimney up which doesn't do much for me as a preservationist um so I'm I'm certainly in favor of replacing those with nearly identical looking faux chimneys and I'm also somewhat concerned that you spent a good deal of time in your presentation talking about the form a and saying well it doesn't mention the chimneys well but in fact if you looked at the Form B which you were required to present with the application it mentions the chimneys twice each SE each one separately so that that doesn't make me feel good as what's going on here let me say that um but I'm I'm I have no problem with the doors by the way um so I'm I'm with Frank in terms of thinking this could be easily resolved by putting some two faux more or less identical Chimneys in which would look the same from a ground and and serve the purpose of getting rid of the Interior you don't want and preserving the historical look Bob excuse me uh Steve um I have some difficulty with this um in a different respect I am not wedded to chimneys um there are chimneys and there are chimneys there were chimneys that make a house there chimneys that don't they just happen to be there on a on an L or something these chimneys to me are clearly built for um stoves as opposed to fireplaces in 1850 people were not building fireplaces the fireplaces are inefficient and effective um and it was by 1850 people were clearly using cast iron stoves of one sort of another particularly their location would indicate that too uh chimneys on houses like that were either the peak if they were uh serving multiple fireplaces um or at the um the edge of of one of the one of the sides of the house and these are not one of them is clearly serving just an L that was built somewhat after probably somewhat after the original house and that clearly would have been a cast iron stove they wouldn't had a fireplace out in the the L and except in rare circumstances uh particularly in after 18 50 um the uh one of the chimneys I notice has brackets if we asked you to replace the chimney would we be replacing asking you to replace the brackets because that's part of the appearance of the house that people seem to want to save uh I I these tunities are unique in the sense that they're they're tall um and they're because they're tall they they hit you when you when you first look at the house um if it was an inexpensive relative inexpensive process I guess I'd like to see F chimneys on the other hand to me a fa chimney is a fa chimney it's not a historic chimney it's it's just a wooden box with some half inch bricks wrapped around it to make it look like a chimney um which seems to me to take away some of the significance of requiring you to replace a chimney um I wish I didn't have to vote I like those chimneys I like I like what they do to the house um but I try to be less doctrinaire and say if there's a chimney it's got to be replaced um I don't I don't feel that way um okay um I'm going to I'm not g those my comments I'm not I'm not going to vote right now so those are my comments yes um I I have I agree with uh what Robert and and Bob have said about the chimney there and what Steve said there are chimneys and chimneys however this would these chimneys I think would if the removal would diminish the historical significance of this home which is uh very I don't know I guess some are more important than others in this town this one's pretty important and so I think it would be uh a better idea to try to either save them or um I can see we we saw the are crumbled they've got they've got to go inside one way or the other but I think um and I have no problem with the replacing the doors I know Frank and I don't agree on this but anyway um but I think the chimneys need to remain in some form I find the chimneys very unique different than many chimneys and they also lead to the whole outline of the house um they're part of it I feel very much so that we should have F faux chimneys thank you please that was a very nice presentation and thank you and thank you to the owners for preserving this beautiful building um however I'm I agree with Robert and Bob and just about everybody else the chimneys they catch your eye when you when you look at the house and the inside of the Chim the inside chimneys I understand have to go they really are in bad shape but a faux chimney on the outside two of them I'm afraid I'm in favor of keeping the chimneys a f chimney all right we seem to have a consensus that we would like to see the chimneys you know if not preserved which you could do it gets that's not a cheap thing I understand that to take them down and rebuild them I noticed also you in your application there you talked about um allowing the uh someone who was interested in the bricks you know to to to salvage them and I that's that's very generous of you thank you very much uh and you you might find a taker U you know uh for that if assuming we get to that particular point I'm not sure we we have people who do Salvage but not of chimneys bricks uh maybe we do they have a list of salvage companies I'm sure they would be interest okay so we do have a list of salvage companies one of the other things we try to do even though we're not the Conservation Commission or the recycling commission we try to keep things out of the dump okay and I'm sure you do too as in your business so on that point um we're actually doing a a walkway job for the South chadam Library I can't make any commitments because oh um very good because the bricks will be full of mortar and you know I'm not sure if they want to go the expense of having um acid wash uh bricks but um we'll certainly look into that and uh you know it's a historic uh building as itself um I've talked to the owners about it and we've even talked about um right now they have stepping stones for their lawn and maybe salvaging the bricks for a uh walkway to the front door um again once the bricks come down the the condition you know sometimes it's just it's a good idea but sometimes it's just not practical but we we're going to explore these uh uh options and ideas well I guess Under full transparency my wife is on the board of the South chatam Village libraries and uh I got to be careful here yeah I saw your sign in front of the uh library and I said oh good they finally found somebody yeah a nice sign anyway but that's that's a great idea that you could that can retain those bricks in one way or the other you know however we we however it's done uh so anyway I guess we we seem to have a consensus hold on let me finish we seem to have a consensus for that okay so we could proceed in a number of ways uh I would now that you have the owners here and I I appreciate that I you know what we do at this particular point just to familiarize it we can take a vote and we can impose a demolition delay I would prefer not to do that I don't think you want that so what I would like to suggest under the concept you said move things along I understand time is money if if you agree that you would consider looking at the potentially replacing the two chimneys with a faux chimney I provided your U your uh contractor there John a copy of okay of an example of what was done on uh three or four Homes at a minimum in chadam the very historic homes on the process in other words I'm holding it up for the for the owners would you consider at this particular point if we just effectively continued the meeting there was give you a couple of weeks to think about it I don't necessarily need an answer now that you would you would commit to that but if you want to look at that and then come back to us we can dispose of the whole thing very quickly at our next meeting in the meantime you know you could still proceed and and come back to us with a decision or a commitment to do a foe or not because right now there seems to be a majority of the members of the commission who really would like to have that you know happen so can I is the commission open to us doing one fox chimney and proceeding say again is the commission open to us erecting one fax chimney and proceeding so you know can we proceed with the we under it seems like everybody's in agreement that we can replace the doors so the house can be occupied on a year round basis winterized insulated and then we understand I I listen to the opinions of the various committee members and it seems like you know there's there's gradations of opinion but the there seems to be a sentiment that there's a fondness for the chimneys yeah my own op my own opinion hold on what I'm asking is can we proceed with one vot chimney yeah I I hate you and I apologize for uh a lot of squinting it's it's difficult to hear okay it's Charles okay uh you know I I hear what you're saying but personally I think the two chimneys really what it's all about and and I'm going to take a quick yes Frank is it possible that we can that we can separate the chimneys and the doors a right now we're just discussing the chimneys all right that's thank you okay I'm so do we so just so I'm clear do we are we you know you've remarked on the consensus a few times it seems like there's consensus that the doors are approved I know it hasn't been off not necessarily we didn't we didn't really address the doors with I'm trying to focus on the chimneys I hate to get down to the nitty-gritty on this but it's probably easy to do that's that's the reason we're convened is to get down to nitty-gritty isn't it so this is I said that's the reason we're convening this meeting is to talk about the details um and I'm and I'm curious so I've got some neighbors present who are supportive of my request to proceed without chimneys is their opinion you know going to be weigh or sure we would we would we would do that at the appropriate time I was just trying to move things along at this particular time okay you know I'm not saying I need a definitive answer that's why I said you know we could just I'm just looking for an indication and and you did provide that indication just now as the owner and by the way I really appreciate you being here trust me I I can't tell you how many times we're dealing with attorneys or Builders and not with the owners okay and thank you very much for for your your cooperation from a consideration and we can get down to the one or two but we'll also talk about before we move on on the doors we'll get we'll move that out very quickly okay it's not a it's not a big deal but I just figured we were focusing on the chimneys and I wanted to stay there so you you've given back another R and we can focus on the chimneys yes here's the thing I don't have like there's not I don't I want to come have to make alternative uh where then she's going to have to find some we're going to have to find somewhere else for her to live various decisions if I need to capitulate just to get my other the ability to reside in that house which we bought which we've been Faithfully restoring then I'll make that concession I mean it it's because that I'm I'm up against the wall I do not have the time I don't have the luxury of time here yeah so and you could say that I didn't you know submit this request early enough well we are where we are and you know if her Comfort resides in me erecting two faux chimneys so we can proceed then I guess I'm going to make that concession and regardless of the support of my neighbors and my you know the financial burden that incurs upon me I'll say yes but like her safety and comfort are Paramount to me as her son and I guess you know if everybody's going to impose this condition on me then I will relent all right fine to you I appreciate that I appreciate that we you know putting that aside now because we were going to conclude this part of it and then speak to the public okay but that's just in the process that we do so generally what we're saying we have potentially an an understanding we could proceed with two fa chimneys putting that aside okay we could discuss the doors and get that out of the way all right okay you shaking your head in the right way so thank you very much we're in agreement with that okay all right very simply Steve is it Rel to the chimneys yes you got a quickly so we can very very quick question we keep talking about Chimes and F Chimes does anybody have a a ballpark figure the cost of building it let's not get into the C it's really not our issue I just did you know I mean like the cost is serious like the reality is I've I've poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into Faithfully maintaining I'm sorry it's hard to hear you survival I you can't hear me yeah that's better no I'm saying the reality is I'm pouring in significant resources to maintain the character of this house yes and we're getting cut up on details and and your colleague over there is talking about cost cost is relevant I mean it's it's a it's a consideration and I mean foe or no foe I don't like it's coming out of my pocket well we understand that and we appreciate that I mean you you've purchased a very historic home and you know unfortunately there are issues related to that okay I've been faithful to that you know I mean you say i p purchased a historical home and I've proceeding in a way that's very faithful to the restoration and maintenance of this yes you have and we appreciate what you've done and so why don't we split the difference because I mean why I don't understand if I why why is not can you ask I really don't want you know we're doing now is negotiate it was one now it's two now you want to go back to one I do I I well I wanted I want none just to but I'm willing but I'm willing look I'm I'm coming here trying to to satisfy the historic Commission because I know that your opinion is critical in this process I want to satisfy your desires to maintain the character of the street in the way that you think is well I think you've heard you think I think you've heard how we feel and what I was trying to do go ahead what I was trying to do at your request is to move it along and I thought the fastest way to do it if you if you wanted time to consider it is to go ahead we're not stopping your construction you can proceed whatever you're doing interiorly we're not we have no Authority relative to that so we're not we're not whatever we decide here is not affecting the interior work that you're trying to do you could proceed whatever you want to do and I just want to make it clear because you're making it sound like let me finish let me finish um you're making it sound like the commission is stopping you we're not stopping you okay we're dealing with two exterior issues so let's let's make that clear let's not make us the completely the bad guy here yeah all right we're trying very hard person issuing to to facilitate issuing the building has has said that it hinges upon the historic commission's decision in this matter is that correct John because if that's not the case I'd love just to be clear hold ONN hold on Christina so this needs to be signed off by this commission so if whatever is decided today will be signed off and then the building permit will proceed okay and I'd like to be able to for go ahe uh both the applicant and the commission members there's been some questions and some discussion um once we've heard because uh there were some hands shown here uh both in the audience and on the board once we hear all those I'd like to address and we can discuss in a little bit more detail uh thank you for the clarification a regarding the building permit because that is our understanding that right now we do not have a building permit um and it's requiring this but I would like to let me a second for my customer the building permit for the interior work sure so for the project itself um there is a building permit submitted the work that's been done is not um perable work meaning that it's not required to have a permit it's your allowed to take plaster off walls but we have yeah well that's what that's the point I'm trying to make John but don't make it sound like we're stopping you we are not stopping you from continuing as the owner says with the work that you want to do with the interior you're making it sound like we're stopping you we're not stopping you with the interior work our Authority is only the exterior as it relates to the to the doors and to the Chim the chimneys only that so I don't want to make myself the complete bad guy here we're trying to facilitate you okay but I don't like I don't like the way the discussion is going here like we're this bad guys we're trying to stop you cost you money that's nonsense we're not doing that so let's let's focus on what we're talking about back to the chimneys go ahead okay so going back to the chimneys again we had some other people that wanted to discuss but as far as the fox you've already gotten a commitment from the applicant to rebuild them and you know I'm certainly not gonna argue the chimneys were done by a um crafted Mason um you know uh as we've already heard not every chimney looks the same and um you know this one has details in it it was it was it was a you know a highly skilled Mason when we do the FAE part of it is the tallness was discussed so I've got a point load so there's some engineering that's going to be needed and I would like to be able to proceed um they may not be exact replicas um and it you know very good and that's why I asked you or I wanted to give you some time is to put together a design of the foe that you're you I realize it's not going to be 100% but you could try to duplicate some of the details of the that's all we're asking for yeah and and so we you've got the commitment from every brick no of course not from in order in order for me to ensure that you could proceed I just need a drawing I sign off on that drawing Boom the Building Commissioner says go ahead proceed it's very quick and we can do it in minutes okay we just need that to that to happen and that's why I suggested well we'll give you a week or so but if you don't want a week you know whatever you want to do you know it's up to you so we un unfortunately if it requires structural engineering and so forth so you've got a commitment that we're going to you know do two chimneys and I would ask if we could uh go back to the building department for the rest of the project with the condition and I've done this with Board of Health and so forth so it's not uncommon that no occupancy permit can be issued until we resolve this to your approval what does the occupany permit have to do with it so there probably can be a couple things done you could maybe separate out the permit um the interior work from the Demolition and reconstruction of the chimneys and we can talk to the Building Commissioner about that and how we can proceed with that so you're not held up with the interior work thank you okay thank you thank you boy a bunch of bad guys were here no I don't think anybody said I'm sorry I was of a misre it that's how it sounded but proceed John no so let's just back up we we had we had a request and we're going through the process and we appreciate it and uh I don't think we have to be labor anymore um we've got a commitment from the owner uh we've got direction to proceed we've gotten clarification uh on it and so you know it's our understanding and so forth um so I I don't think what's been said has been said and so forth but I I think right now we're all on the same page of moving forward okay let me let me try to completely resolve this move we'll go quickly back to the doors okay all right I'm sorry and I apologize to the owner I looked at those doors and I see 1,800 you know really beautiful old historic doors I'm sorry that's what I see I I guess it's a defect in my personality even though I'm an electrical engineer somehow I look at an antique door and I say wow look at that look at the structure and I knocked on them they were pretty solid doors but that's not your request your request is to replace the doors with something now I'll be honest with you my biggest problem with what you're proposing and maybe I'll misreading it is sidelights there are no Sid lights on that current structure if I thinks yes there are there are okay I'm looking for the I'm looking for the picture oh here it is I'm looking at this one yeah know I'm on the front door but there's a second door and there's no sidel lights on that and that when you have SIDS yeah that's just replacing the slab I'm sorry that that one we're just replacing the slab the front door has sidelights and we're proposing a door with s side lights got that's where my confusion was I saw that picture okay fine all right just very quickly guys it's a yes or no answer do you want to Pro I'm going to start there Sandy do you want to proceed to replace the doors with the modern modern doors yes or no unless you really feel you got to make a speech I don't want to go first I'll go come on ladies I'll go go ahead I have no problem with replacing the door right Steph no problem with replacing the doors Steve accept Chim accept a little a little sarcasm in that answer I prefer in the future just the yes or no yes Sandy yes you ready I'm not in favor of replacing it with Okay good Bob I'm okay Bob I'm okay with doors okay good all right so we're okay so what I what we're going to do now just so you know for clarification we're going to get some comments from your public here which is public comment see she helps me she puts up a sign public comic don't forget Frank okay so very simply we have one letter uh from neighbor from Mr Potter 391 uh State Cher road we don't Neally read the whole letter but effectively Mr Potter is a resident in 391 and long uh time homeowner and he uh like us to continue to allow this home to proceed the way the applicant wants to um because course they are in fact and I I heartly agree with them that they are uh attempting to preserve a very uh historic home and allow the re removal of the non-functional chimneys and we agree removal except that we'd like to see something in its place okay having said that uh a m of public want to speak for against the application come on up please was longer than I thought it was going to be uh good morning everybody ladies and gentlemen I'm not going to read quite a bit of this because the decision's already been made but um my name is Anne timson 396 Stage harpper Road and I and my husband are one of 13 families who live on stage Harbor Road year round and we are thrilled to have the lacad joining us as n um I speak for many and respectfully regation project we believe that the accolades should be applauded for their incredible tenacity to save this 1860s Cape style Creek Revival home we do not believe that the absence of two nonfunctional chimies that are not original to the structure should be an obstacle to the impressive restoration of this home I won't go into all the details but I again Mr Burlingham you and uh her grandfather bought the house in 1930 chimneys to me don't look like 1860s chimney copying another faux chimney I guess you could say in terms of it was not the original chimney the only thing that I have to say is I live I watch the construction of a faux chimney and a house behind us a a new new house and it's just plywood and it's just very very thin laminated brick and we have a lot of 60 mph winds in our area we're close to the water we get a lot of wind and so to copy and imitate the existing chimneys on this house I don't think a faux chimney you know that tall would survive that long I think I think it's a lot of expense and and maybe not a practical design I hope that you will accept faux chimneys of that are lower number one because it's just impractical uh and if you look at a lot of Greek Revival houses their chimneys are not that skinny uh when you're working with Plywood And laminated brick and you're getting up that high you're kind of asking for trouble which is one of the reasons why there's an iron bar supporting the existing chimney I won't say anymore thank you very much for your vote on the new door I'm sure they will look great we have one of those doors in our house even though our house is not antique and it seems to be standing up beautifully to the bad weather we have here thanks so much thank you thank you very much anybody else wish to speak for or against the application okay we're going to close this off uh and uh wait actually hold on Ste my neighbor Stephen Clark who's attending via uh is is here may I speak yes speak please introduce yourself great well good morning uh everyone uh my name is Stephen Clark I live at 368 stage Harbor Road uh directly across the street from the lacad at 369 uh my connection to chadam is that my wife's family is owned a home in North chadam for over 40 years uh she's been coming for that period of time and I'm myself have been coming to chadam for uh the last 30 plus years uh we purchased our home at 368 stage Harbor Road in 2020 uh and we were very much attracted to Stage Harbor Road for its uh location and its historical chart um a few words about uh 369 uh when we bought our home it was clear that the house across the street was in need of some love and deferred maintenance uh but in my opinion it had great bones uh as I like to say uh and we were thrilled when the lacad bought the house uh as a young family with deep generational ties to chadam um and when Chaz and Cass explained their plans to renovate the historical home very much in keeping with its original character we were very excited um from our perspective we see uh no reason to delay their PL uh to remove the chimneys uh they're not functioning and as I understand it and I've heard today you're at risk of falling down uh personally I disagree with the uh the commission that the uh chimneys are integral to its uh design it's hard to even see from where we sit directly across the street with the beautiful trees in front uh it's hard to even see the chimneys so uh it's not something that uh that I think of when I think of the home um so I don't I don't really view in my opinion that that the chimneys constitute an important visual aspect of the structure um and I see no reason to to uh require them to stay uh we fully support uh the renovation work proposed by the laads uh and would hope that the commission would would uh would consider going forward in the way they' they've requested now I've heard all the discussion this morning uh and you know I share uh I share the view that uh a faux chimney uh to me might might be worse than uh the no chimney at all and uh I I also well aware of the high winds that we have on stage Harbor Road and would be worried about whether a faux chimney would survive long and uh whether it might uh itself U you know be a hazard so uh I'm very much in favor and in support of the accolades uh proposal as it as it was put forward and I thank you uh all for uh hearing my opinion well thank you very much I do appreciate it uh you know because this commission one of the next tasks we're going to be trying to deal with as a commission for the town of chadam is the issue of things or homes which are historic being allowed to be become neglected I mean we call it demolition by benign neglect not the house anyway but the idea when things get neglected that they they fall into disrepair and we're kind of stuck between the Rock and the hard place like oh my goodness it's a house and you know we've lost a couple of significantly historic homes in town which unfortunately we just left alone and not not repaired and as a result of that to the owners trust me we we earnest and honestly you know applaud what your efforts are uh chadam is lucky to have so many people who appreciate the architectural significance of the community and uh and to buy up these old homes uh and also to to to save them we have another application right after you for somebody who has a very old home who's going to be putting a new foundation in same thing you know if we don't take care of these old homes they're going to all come down okay I think at this particular point I think we've got a couple of motions quite a few motions Bob Frank just take it Frank yes Sandy I will I will vote to approve this application but I want to condition it on that chimney yes yes we take care of that okay we got it all right we got about unfortunately we got about four or five motions we have to take to approve this go ahead Rob well I'm hoping it's just three um oh we did the one yet we we did the chapter 158 finding a historic significance this is the second part of that uh bylaw which is the chatam historical commission also finds proposed work to be done dated this date will not materially diminish the historic significance of the building structure and when I reference to Miss Porter's point that if the that proposed work for this date including includes installing those fa chys and and the the doors as described um okay well not materially diminish and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay I second second thank you very much any other discussion Bob yes Steve yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes chair vote Yes okay now uh cape card Commission um I move the chatam historical commission confirms that second second yes second any discussion Bob yes Steve yes Seth yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vote Yes one more I move the chat historical commission find that the materials presented this date showing that the proposed alterations includ including installation of a of two faux chimneys and two new doors do not constitute a substantial alteration to a contributing structure located in an eligible National Historic register district and therefore a discretionary referral to the cap Cog commit mission for review is not necessary a second thank you very much any discussion Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair votes thank you very much I'm sorry it became protracted but I hopefully we we accomplish what you'd like to do and um thank you very much appreciate it okay we have one other application yes I I think it would be fair to give the applicant some little bit more discussion on the faux chimy we we deal with that whether I deal with that by when the application comes in we going to get a design and I will review that design whether it needs to be as high as these chimneys are these these chimneys are important to us because partly because they're tall chimneys if they're short chimneys I think it' be a different story we've already completed that resolution so I we'll just move on at this particular point and I'll have that discussion with the applicant all right thank you something we should have brought up before all right let's move on guys never going to get out of herei okay thank you appreciate it thank thank you I appreciate time all right we have uh second application 240252 M over Lane I can't find my agenda put it out not on it thank you this is a uh contributing structure in the National register District as well will be heard under chapter 158 so uh why don't you introduce yourself and then give us a couple of uh quick items good is it still morning yes I think so yeah good morning uh Tim Smith mwood homes morning Tim we have an open position is that chair right there right there um yes and we we you're allowed facial hair if you can have a beard on this board oh good well he just left I thought he left because no beard but um welcome well yes Tim Smith minglewood homes um so uh I could give you my history of chatam but I'm sure you all know it so um we're here for M over Lane um we do have the owner here today so if you'd like to ask some questions um we can we would be more than uh happy to do that but this is pretty cut you know straightforward we have worked on this house for many years and we have done this you know he's doing what he's supposed to do to maintain it without letting it go too far before we run into the neglect um so and well maybe he hasn't maybe he let it go a little far but we're getting there so uh we're going to go in and we're going to we're not going to lift the house because we've already done some of the foundation so we are going to go in there and um you know we're going to do it in segments and we're going to segment this and uh with block Foundation four feet to meet code and we will give it a full foundation and as we get through that any rotted Sills we will replace the Sills um at that point in time um as we know it's some of it sitting very low to the dirt low to the Earth we are going to regrade as well as much as we can to pull the Dirt away from the structure and create a better pitch um uh pitching away from from the house itself from the main house this picture here you're showing the back section of the house if we could more so give you an example of are there more pictures with these there we go so that's the house that we're going to be working with um that that Wing there and around the front so the main section um we've already done the kitchen area I would say probably eight years ago or so so um you know we're going to uh we we we'll run into into that I think we'll be in pretty you know we know some of the floor D will have some issues with them but we'll get into those and have to you know you can't get under there now it's all C of sitting into the dirt right now so but it's very simplistic we're not changing anything um as far as structural on the exterior whatsoever so um that is my that's about what we're going to do and I I think you guys um understand that this is definitely a good thing for the house it'll help restore it and and keep it from you know it's such a beautiful piece it's such a neat old house it's been there these guys have been there for a long time and um and uh so I think that they're doing the right thing here well thank you very much uh I think you know we we I do and I think most of us wholeheartly agree this is a classic way to help save a uh an old home 18 something original and uh if we don't do this to these homes they're going to they're going to disappear on us you know little little at a time yeah uh I I was commenting with the owners or when we were there that you know in the 70s he didn't have sh forign property but now he's got you know the Dune keeps disappearing it's absolutely beautiful there what get closer and closer you know and uh so that is is great uh okay I I don't have any other comments or questions anybody else this straightforward yes Andy I just have a question for I and I didn't see you there yesterday ladybug but for the owner are the the pipes that I saw outside the house are they going to be incorporated into that New Foundation that run along the side the gray pipes did I see those gas lines those are gas yeah those are those are Lin those are line sets for air conditioning that was put in okay yes I'm talking about at the surface on the ground those the gray pipes that on the ocean side oh you're going to have to come forward come on they like to talk to the owners okay make sure you give you your history for what long no no no well if you want the history I'll give it to you but let me answer the question the gray pipes if you go to The View with the bay window that's the ocean side yeah that's where the gray pipes you're talking about that run along grade those are gas lines to two gas heaters okay and I had actually talked to Kyle about when we have the Earth open getting those back underground which they once were I don't know why when they replac the heaters they went above ground but this is a perfect opportunity to go back below whoops sorry those ears they were well thank you very much my other comment is thank you very much for keeping this wonderful house and making the effort hand digging out a basement goodness not a basement just a foundation Foundation but even so a lot of work and the history he talked about my family bought the property in 1934 uh when it was not Waterfront um but there was just conservation land between us and the water so we've always had a nice view and um we're going to stay here as long as we can if we can keep it from sinking into the ground when he saved the kitchen for us years ago um it was steep downhill walk to the fridge and now it's level [Laughter] so thank you very much okay thank you okay um Frank I got a question and a comment I guess um Tim when you did the the kitchen area did you do it the same way you're proposing to do it here okay um and the the comment is that our nextdoor neighbor did something like this except he already had a full basement and it was a real bear to deal with and I'm sure you know took a long time so yeah it takes a little bit of time i' you know it kind of this reminds me as a kid building you know with uh with um actually with my brother Jack he did this a bunch of times so you know going in there and doing it this way it's you know it's it's very tight in there it's non-invasive um we're not doing as much you know we pick up a lot of houses and we do them that way too that's a little more invasive to this so that's why we're doing it this way well there was that one down the street that lifting it up didn't work too well so I'm not well hopefully I wasn't involved with that one was I yes oh well oh down the street okay I know what you're talking yes well see exactly you run into some incredibly you know unforeseen rot that you powder poost beetles or termites they get you you know so but there's no signs of that from the top from what you no no this is pretty good there's there's rough stuff in there it's sat in the dirt so we are going to find some rot with the Sills for sure um but we can replace those with a pressure treated material and and get those uh back and that'll give it the life as well great you know that'll save a lot of it all right otherwise I'm not otherwise I'm in favor good anybody else want to comment I think we generally have consensus is a positive thing all right so Bob why don't we uh reaffirm the historical significance and then move forward I move the chat of historical commission and finds that the building located at 16 12 I'm sorry missed over a Lane 12 why did I see six anyway okay 12 Miss overl um is historically significant because it's in whole or in part 75 years old or more and is listed within an area on the national register of historic places and is located within that historic district and we also find It's associated with um persons within the economic and political history of the town of chadam and P Texas architectural value in terms of it significant period and style second thank you any other comments any member of the public wish to speak for or against the application seeing none uh roll call uh Bob yes Steve note Mr R game left uh Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair votes yes okay one more I move the chat Mr commission confirms delay you said no delay oh I didn't do that I'm sorry y um it still is part of chapter 158 demolition delay um by law the chadam historical commission also finds the proposed work to be done dated today will not materially diminish the historic significance of building located at uh 12 mistover Lane and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay second thank you very much any other comments any member of the public no all right one more I think let me just do a roll call here uh Bob yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vote Yes all right and under the Cape Cod Commission uh act I move the chadam historical commission confirms that the building located at 12 misto Lane is a contributing structure on the National Historic registered district and move that the materials presented this day show that the proposed alterations do not constitute a substantial alteration to a contributeing structure in the National Historic register district and therefore a referral to the Cap Cod Commission for review is not necessary second second any comments okay Bob yes yesy yes Sandy yes Janet yes Rober yes and the chair vess thank you very much great to see you thank you very much appreciate it you guys enjoy the fall and hopefully we'll see you soon yes thank you you could use your expertise in I know I've try I just so busy I tell you you know kids keep you busy wait minut your expertise oh I enjoyed it very much byebye take care by all right uh we've got a couple of quick old business things I'll just make some quick comments and just bring everybody up to date uh we did have a meeting with uh Christine Christine Christino gr not Christina Christino gr uh the new planner and uh B bottom line is I think that the recommendation from her and other people was that we should focus on homes within the national registered districts and and start there so at this particular time it's a good idea you know she's meting with cape card commission uh trying to get some other information and I'd like to say it's her number one priority but she's new on board and you know and she's got a full plate right now uh so that's may I ask a question say again is is she going to put in or is it going to be put in about having some type of punitive measure we discussed that briefly but you know it's it's on her list of things to do so we need more and and definitely Sandy uh Stephanie as soon as we disc get some information from her where she is you know Steph and I would like to have a meeting with her okay just to get a status all right I appreciate that if you could do that I would appreciate that uh I haven't heard from uh Katie relative to the funding on the form and be's could you just remind her we're waiting on that okay uh this is to implement what we had decided as a commission on how to prioritize the updates of the formas and form B's uh I had conversations with Holly herbster palal on the archaeological survey work that she's doing relative to the Nickerson Homestead archaeological site as a national register District that will proceed in October our contract ends in October so she's guaranteed us she will get us that report once we have that hopefully at our next meeting we'll be able to review that report and make a decision on how to proceed with eligibility requests to National Mass historic uh I guess we're still uh feeling the positive effects of the uh boat house vote at the town meeting I did share with you a correspondence that I had with uh Greg Burman who's the uh director of Natural Resources in terms of uh what it looks like for the boat house and he's talking about fall 2025 for something to happen once the purs and floats get into place and so before that calendar year hopefully you'll see the boat house float back to chadam which would be great just wanted to give you an update on that uh the other item which I wanted to comment on relative um is the U is two things the um the archaeological protection of resources in architecturally sensitive areas and this is that zero crosswind Farms which I was requested to make a uh a request to mass historic relative to the significance of their inquiry so I did so with Paul Whitman Whitman the uh uh I guess he's the U he's the agent conservation agent and you have a copy of his response I'm not sure where it goes from here basically for the members of the board and the and the public we requested a ruling from uh Mass historic relative to the zeroc Cross Wind Farm Road property of whether or not there were any archaeologically sensive resources in the area and I rather not go into the whole details of the memo which is available to the public and to the members of the commission But it includes various sites stone tools etc etc that have been found over time but let me read the last paragraph This is an archaeologically this parcel is archaeologically sensitive the mass historic commission recommends that an intensive local local intensive local how do you pronounce that word locational locational locational thank you very much locational archaeological survey be conducted to any ground disturbing activities in order to identify and potentially avoid impacting any significant ancient Native Native American archaological resources that's a mouth fill yeah but basically what they're saying is they're letting us know and the owner that you know you've got an archaeologically sensitive area and you should be careful uh you know legislative wise we have no Authority Mass historic technically has no Authority except if there's a uh Native Indian burials there okay so it's just a kind of a heads up which is what we've done with this whole archaeological survey we can't tell people not to dig but we can ask them to be very careful because you may be digging in an archaeologically sensitive area this is something it's on my back burner uh in terms of should we should we We being the town of chadam and I see selectman uh select board member uh Dean the Castro is online hello Dean and you know this is something that we might want to ask the town of chadam to consider to have some kind of BW which at least recognizes that chadam is an extremely archaeologically sensitive area and we should be careful just by way of information the town of chadam does that whenever the town of chadam digs for roads or sewer or anything like that they they they look for before they dig and they in fact hire an archaeologist to come in and to do a survey of an area before they actually dig to make sure that nothing is Disturbed that doesn't have to be disturbed um anyway so that's where that is and um pretty much uh that's all I have which is enough anybody else have anything they want to add or talk about I have a tangential question I guess a 150 old one old Harbor Road the um demolition delay has expired and there are no new plans I assume then that that's proceeding to a building permit okay okay they just waited us out y any other comments Sandy did you have something okay I'll second after we adjourn okay I guess that was a motion to adjourn all right any other comments Mr Das CASRO did you want to say something or I see you here no I was just monitoring but I will I will offer a comment on along the lines of the subject that you were talking about just a moment ago I I would think if if the commission is interested in having the town um adopt some kind of archaeological oriented bylaw it probably should generate from within your your commission with a recommendation back to the select board as you've done in the past on in other areas I think that would be the appropriate Avenue if if this is something you think worth worth pursuing thank you very much I love the way when I try to give you a job you send it back to me that's my that's very good you very adapted that thank you very much okay all right we'll do a roll call for adjournment uh Bob Steph Yes Sandy yes Janet yes Robert yes sh VES thank you very much and thank you for the public listening in byebye [Music] [Music] e e e