##VIDEO ID:mLWh7S9wnkg## e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] good morning hi I'm Frank Ms and this is the September 17 2024 meeting of the chadam historical commission uh before we start we have some uh brief information uh please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly Hereafter for a scheduled and an ond demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting now please notify the chairman thank you very much pursuant to Governor Haley's March 29 2023 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General law 30 a20 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chatam historical commission is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to the sure ensure the public can adequately access the proceedings as provided for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to listen to this meeting while in progress May doing so by calling the phone number 508 945 4410 conference ID 531 330 619 hashtag or join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link on the posted agenda while this is a live broadcast and simal class on chatam TV despite our best efforts we might be not may not be able to provide for realtime access we will post a record of this meeting on the town website as soon as possible okay uh thank you very much first item of business is our roll call Bob Le here Steve Burlingame here Nancy Barb here Stephanie Hamilton here Sandy Porter here Janet Tennyson here Robert Stevens here and the chair is here we got a full house all members of the commission regular members of the commission are here so our alternate Robert Stevens will participate in the discussion but we just not be a voting member all right uh we have the minutes of September 3rd which you all received the copy and hopefully had a chance to look them over I move that we accept the minutes of September 3rd 20 24 thank you second any other comments no okay we need a motion to accept minutes as written Bob I thought Stephanie had done that but sorry I thought Stephanie did that but I'll say it again I made it a motion that we accept I I was going to do a roll call did I say the wrong thing yeah we did the roll call I'm Excuse me the the the roll call on the vote of the minutes okay so oh you're asking for my vote I'm sorry yes I you know I'm I'm 82 okay you know I confuse easily all right uh reset cut that from the tape all right here we go we now have a motion and second on the uh accepting the minutes of September 3rd 2024 roll call Bob yes Steve yes Nancy yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes speak up please Janet yes and uh the chair votes yes thank you very very much okay that was easy all right we have U three applications for hearing under chapter 158 uh and so we shouldn't have a long long meeting here uh first application is 2421 17 Dusty Miller Lane this application was continued from September September 3rd 2024 so 17 Dusty Miller Lane they're online this application heard under 158 n property was built in 1946 no Form B not located in historic district okay who do we have presenting this application do you know who's out there it should be it should be Ela I believe say again I believe El is on online or Edwin is presenting for 17 Dusty Miller hello yes we are how are you yes could you please introduce ourself and tell us who you are um I'm Edwin Lopez so I I'm AIS suppose um do me a favor could you kind of get closer to the Mike I'll turn up my hearing aid I couldn't hear so we can't hear you what's his name Edward Ed Edward Edward yes I can hear you too all right that was much better if you could just speak up into the microphone Edwin could you just inself introduce yourself formally just tell us who you are Edward it looks like they're just this is at least there we go can you hear me yeah we can hear you Alisa I don't know yes I don't know what happened to Edwin well we're just looking for somebody to formally introduce themselves and give us a sense of what you're planning so my name is Alisa Urban I'm the homeowner at 17 Dusty Miller Lane and uh Edwin is my husband we are planning to um extend the the current floor plan of the house by probably about I think 8 or 900 squ feet okay I I guess it's kind of straightforward without laboring it I'm sorry excuse me Elisa it looks like you're logged in twice and I think that's maybe why we're getting feedback yeah can you hear me now we can hear you now Lisa why don't you just quickly tell us what you're doing because it's kind of straightforward it is it is I think it's straightforward um basically uh we're extending the square footage of the home um and uh adding a bedroom and extending the kitchen um I think it's approximately 800 square feet that we're adding eight or 900 I'm not sure exactly that's close enough okay uh I guess this this is just go through the process here uh this home was before us in 20121 and uh was found not historically significant and no demolition uh delay was imposed so it's kind of a procedural issue that why we're here again so so uh why don't we just quickly see if any members of the commission have any other comments I mean the question here is reaffirming our decision previous decision in in 2021 that this is not historically significant and then to uh make a determination of whether or not we would and not impose whether we do or do not impose demolition delay any member of the commi commission have any questions or comments that they wish to make yes I just say for the record that we should acknowledge just for the record I think we should acknowledge that we have reviewed this carefully in the past um that we have uh visited the property we have seen its condition um and that it remains in in the condition that we saw several years ago and there were no factors that would uh at least in my mind change my attitude towards the determination this property is not historically significant I think we're we're kind of all in pretty much agreement on that yes S I have just one question is this the same owner that came before us are these the same owners that came before us in 2021 I just can't remember okay thank you you know we have that we have that issue relative to the the length of application uh I apologize I'm trying to turn my cell phone damn cell phone off okay I have one I excuse me I have one more question this is in South chatam is this when they came before us in 2021 the whole South chattam historical district hadn't Oh this is not an historic district oh okay that's excuse me that would be my question yeah okay uh Frank go have a question comment maybe um I agree with Mr Burling game that sort of nothing has changed or maybe it has that's my question when I went by to have a look at it there was clearly construction going on and my understanding would be if they did not get a building permit because of a lack of historical fun or determination at that point that they shouldn't be involved in construction but that's Mr Brigg's issue I think but there was no construction there was a crew on site that were cleaning up the uh the weeds and the growth on the property but construction has not been been undertaken well if if you compare the the pictures you submitted with what the house looks like now on the outside something has been done more than clearing up weeds yeah I think some shingles have been removed well I don't I don't disagree with you Bob but by the same token in 2020 whatever it was you know when we made made the determination uh in 2021 the house was not historically significant and we did not impose a demolition delay so technically it's really outside our our purview uh well that's why I said it was Mr Brigg's thing to to deal with right okay I I think we could move forward on this uh we need a motion Mr yep I move the chadam historical commission reaffirms reaffirm its finding that the building located at 17 duster Miller Lane is not historically significant for the reasons previously stated and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay second okay thank you very much any other comments from the public for against the application seeing none okay uh no other comments we take a roller call Bob yes Steve yes Nancy yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes and the chair votes yes thank you very much appreciate your patience with us good luck thank you can I just ask if if for some unforeseen reason which please I hope this doesn't happen but if we end up here three years later do we have to submit this application yet again yeah I'm I apologize for that well I don't apologize you know it's it's something that we found necessary uh uh as part of the uh the administrative process uh that requiring it to come back before the full commission and I'll be very caned with you as a taxpayer uh it's one of the things that we have been thinking about relative to our administrative review process so that something like this could be taken care of in a administrative review where you as an as a citizen and an applicant would just come back to Christina and the office within Community Development and it could be resolved at that level without a full hearing but at the present time the bylaw reads two years you have to come back to us and for a full hearing and U so I hopefully you guys can get going soon I hope so as well and I'm GL I'm glad that you're looking at that that bylaw um I understand thank you thank you very much okay all right next application is 24022 47 Crosby Lane and we have an application for a property in which there is no Form B not located in historic district and has not before been before the commission uh let me just get myself an order here before we start okay if you could kindly introduce yourself and uh tell us pretty much what you'd like to do certainly good good morning it's um Thomas Moore from Thomas Moore design company in Brewster uh and we're looking for a demolition without delay of the uh property at 47 Crosby Lane for Rebecca Fuller she's in the audience here uh so that we can build a new house with a detached garage uh the existing house is uh was a kind of a bungalow built in 1935 according to the town assessor records and it's uh Miss Fuller's owned this property for a little over a year the previous owner has neglected this house and it's in you it's in really rough shape and it's time to go so and yeah what you see there is the proposed new house that's going to go on the property so be happy to answer any questions that you might have well you you kind of said the right word that this commission is very concerned about neglected and uh although this particular property you know is questionable in my mind rather it's historical significance it's a shame when we have a a structure in town that gets neglected whether it's reasons for just personal not being able to to handle it or or we call demolition by benign neglect so uh at this particular point I'm going to ask other members of the commission if they have any comments that they'd like to uh to say any comments yes NY um I just have a question out of interest because the stories of the homes are always interesting to me are you related to the Fullers who seem to have built the house in the 1930s I am not okay I yeah I thought oh it's coming back into the family okay um I just wondered I mean the research I did it shows maybe it was built around 1932 which is very close to the date um in my opinion however the structure is not historically significant um and has also been neglected to the point that there's literally large PL growing in the interior yeah that are practically trees so I just wanted to ask that because I was interested no thank you very much Nancy I agree with Nancy it's just beyond um there's too much Japanese Knotwood growing inside too no yeah it's sad but I agree too all right sanding yeah it's always sad to see a piece of property be neglected but um I don't see any historical significance in it now okay any other comments I guess we seem to have a consensus and we all feel the same way uh as we uh attempt toh find a way to help stem that and unfortunately it's just something that's happening in chadam U sometimes by in on purpose and not only excuse me not only in chadam it's other towns in the cape too so yeah yeah it is it's an issue all right so we seem to have a consensus any member of the public wish to speak for or against the application okay Mr L we take a motion please I move the chatam historical commission to find that this building located at 47 Crosby Lane is not historically significant because it does not meet any of the definitional criteria in section 158-k you very much no other questions or comments think we can take a roll call Bob yes Steve yes Nancy yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes and the chair vot yes good luck thank you you little spot in town and uh hidden just hidden enough you know to be very quiet nice nice area thank thank you very much good luck okay last but not least uh 83 Old Mill Road Again old old Mail Road thank you very much this is 24023 again this is for request for fully full demolition of a property the property uh again there's no Form B not located in the National register District um and it was before us one more time was previously found not historically significant and no demolition delay was was imposed uh so we kind of have a similar situation here that we had in an application before on uh Dusty Miller Lane this property very came very close to my heart when I seen it was built in 1942 okay uh who was representing the property hello yeah just introduce yourself formally yes uh this is Tom Blakeley um the owner of 83 old Mail Road can I ask you a quick question before we start yep according to the application the property owner is the estate of Kath Lee is is she the the owner and you're representing her well what happened was during the process um there was an an issue the family had with probate because of the death in the family so it was a kind of a you know uh a challenge with uh the attorneys and everything dealing with the probate court and so on and so forth so that so that it was a similar situation at the time that all took place and um she had not yet passed away and then uh so it it wasn't really your average conventional situation so unfortunately uh death involved this and probate was involved in all the procedural everything the attorneys um had to deal with to deal with everything so the uh paperwork was put forward the way it needed to be put put forward at the time well we have a problem you are the corre you are the owner now correct that's correct well well yes the next wave LLC he's the owner he he owns the property now so why does it say Kath and Lee there is a should be a piece of paper in there give him them giving him permission yeah the attorneys there's paperwork and the authorization from the ownership enti hold on one second hold on one second the reason that it's back before you is because of the change of ownership okay so this is a different owner than last this gives him this gives him authority to submit it so they he he was not the owner to when he submitted it he had authorization to submit and then during before he was here he's was going to be the owner okay all right thank you very much just wanted to clarify that uh you're very uh no issue so uh again this has been this before and and really nothing has changed uh this just quickly although we don't have any purview relative to the design this is not the same design was previous submitted to us this is a new design correct yes this was a design um they asked to show that the um the gray uh exterior of the house that was modified I came in and I met with Sarah and Jay Briggs and we went over the whole package and then um the plan that the architect put forward showed the exterior siding when you first put it on it's not necessarily gray and there was a preference to have it show what it would really be at the end of the day which would be the gray exterior so I had the architect change it and sent that in that is the um that is the plan that's before everyone okay Frank Frank excuse me just to clarify that when you saw this previously it was a whole different app application applicant everything they have that person has since not wanted to do anything with the property this is a totally new owner application um house design okay Frank you know what it was when you were having your surgery it was when you were having your surgery I'm having my what when you had your surgery so it was just Bob and I and you know oh Bob and me so yeah no wonder I don't remember it was Eastward was going to deel I apologize sir okay I I think this is kind of straightforward unless somebody has something to add on it um about the property any decisions yes I don't think this is in we can do this but I was very bothered by the house that's going to be put up um it doesn't fit with the neighborhood yes well we your your opinion is valid but unfortunately we don't have authority to uh that's up to our friends at the zoning board uh and we'll leave it to them to make the decision uh given it's really not an historic district or anything like that so I think we generally have a consensus if not a majority can I get a motion Mr ler sure I move that the Chad historical commission finds that the building buildings cuz there's a garage too located at 83 Old Mill Road is not his historically significant because it does not meet any of the definitional criteria in section 158-47 learn these things cuz I uh paid close attention to the previous hearings and I've literally gone door Todo with all of the ab Butters and spoken to an awful lot of them and shared the plan with them in an effort to design a house that would fit into the neighborhood and be something that the people that actually live there would like would not be offended by something that they look at and say they think it does fit in with the neighborhood and uh I have to say that I went and I distributed letters and everything yesterday met a lot of people and uh from putting the garages in the back of the house what's before you is a 52t wide house the previous plan was about 80 ft wide with two garages in the front 20t from the street This is 40 from the street so I it would help me just so I can have more education if I understood why she feels it didn't fit into the neighborhood after four or five revisions the size the size of it it's it's it's within the zoning ordinance as far as the size and square footage and everything yeah um I real so yeah well that's this is an this is an opinion relative to the size and the and the look of the house but again you know we we just do not have jurisdiction as it relates to that and um well why don't we proceed with the vote here I wait I'd just like to say just because you know he wants to know like I think it's not that the house itself like feels like you're creating a man mention you know the house is not itself horrible or out of size but the scale of most of the homes that currently exist in the neighborhood are one-story smaller lower scale house so when it gets on the street it is probably going to be feel larger taller than the existing homes on the street that's exactly that's that's the thing and you know so so it's just I think you know a comment that these the way the neighborhoods are going from smaller Cottages built in the 1940s to um larger home the homes that replace them are larger in scale and it ends up changing the neighborhood and that's I think that's where that came from yes Janet I'd like to recognize Janet Tennison to speak and in the future ladies I would ask you to look to me to recognize before you speak thank you very much yes Janet no I I understand what what Stephanie is saying however if you come come in from um Stony Hill from from there are two directions to come into this this road old mail and on the way in there are some that have been converted and our twostory and are quite large and but the fact is they're back end so you don't really see them and on uh this house you won't see it either because there's a lot of Fage a lot of trees and greens so it's not going to stick out like a sore thumb and he's kept it in the print so I'm just saying okay it could be where e Eastward design was three times the size and all right I thank you very much I appreciate your comment hopefully hopefully that was helpful and at where we are I for I recall we're going to proceed with a roll call uh with the motion from Mr Le and seconded Bob yes Steve yes Nancy yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes chair votes good luck thank you very much thank you good luck with zoning thank you very much okay uh I apologize we have just quickly we thought we could end in a half hour but we're going to go a little bit longer uh there's a couple of things to discuss just briefly and I just want to let the commission know uh relative to our Dem demolition by neglect uh uh potential action with the new uh planner Christen ogrady she has moved out she's been having conversations with Sarah Corf from the cape card commission which Christine Christina was involved with Christine and U so we're moving along I intend on meeting with her shortly just to discuss the scope of uh what we what we could or could not proceed to get past the town meeting and also review some information that we have from uh edger toown in Newport and just this as before we speak I was shared uh uh shared by something from the town of Sandwich thank you very much Nancy and we most hopefully I'll pass that along so it is moving ahead and and uh yes ma'am I would be I would be interested in going to that meeting okay I know it's probably hard to the only thing is like whenever there's three of us we can't do that you know and you know it's it's that thing and right now Bob and I were planning to go um so it's going to be a brief meeting but I certainly will inform you and I'll you know we'll talk you know that's a good question I wonder if we could zoom in I guess not I'm getting the boss to shake a head no so we can't do that um it's still considered a meeting if even if it's Zoom yeah even if it's it's a meeting okay guys sorry Stephanie I'm sorry we this we this will be another meeting I was going to have her here but it just figured we just have a brief introduction but I will tell you right now at our next meeting we will have a formal uh discussion with her and we'll have a more detail to me absolutely not not trying to bypass it all okay that was uh new business item old business uh updating the survey I'm waiting for a decision from uh Community Development relative to the funding process and we could move ahead with that uh I had a conversation actually this morning again with Holly herbster from palal she's on track to complete her her efforts on the uh on the pre-application for eligibility of the Nicholson family uh Homestead as an archaeological historic site and that will complete it in October and then we will make a decision we'll review that and then make a decision to submitted to mass historic uh for a decision on eligibility we've been busy haven't we last but not least hurah uh the boat house vote as we all know was uh successfully passed last night and not the boat house the upweller vote so uh how are we involved further other than in in considering to encourage the uh saving of the Coast Guard boat house was uh we had prepared a draft Form B which I had Christina share with you in in your packet and this is what Eric had prepared when we were in the process of trying to get the town to uh to find a way to save it uh we never submitted this to mass historic at the time there was some concern relative to the fact that by submitting it it probably it probably May mess up the process of of getting it uh you know uh restored and which I didn't agree with but B the most important thing uh from our preservation consultant Eric Dre he felt bringing it back to chadam first we would have a better chance of getting Mass historic commission to agree that this was in fact eligible rather than asking for something that was the chadam boat house but it was sitting up in Quincy so you know Mass historic gets kind of funny when historic sites are relocated um uh so anyway we're at the point coming back hopefully in 2025 uh or 26 and uh then we will upgrade this update this form and then again ask your permission to allow me to submit it to mass hisor uh for another particular site I would say that in conversations over the last three years or so with the town that the changes they're making or planning to make on the exterior of the boat house are really very limited so we should have a a really good understanding of what the boat house was and more importantly hopefully uh with its red tile roof uh and good chance to get Mass historic to agree it's in fact eligible for National register designation any other questions on that I can quickly jump off to uh this demolition delay no no no movement on that the current status of the open delays there those are the correct updates okay so nothing more has happened with 320 or 322 Bridge Street no it has not there has been some talk about it coming back to zba but we have not seen anything okay fine uh we did have a meeting on I think was September 4th with the zba over potential changes of the of the stor of the zoning bylaw to include criteria for preservation I'm not sure where that where that is anything will happen from zoning I I don't know if there's been any more talk about it since that meeting okay and last but not least uh conversations with the owners of 770 Main Street the uh Washington tailor house and the the former monoy theater they're waiting for the judge to make a decision and a ruling on the zoning issue uh what happens here is if the judge rules favorably in the developers uh way he will proceed with uh the number of houses he wanted to put in that up part of the property and then proceed with the restoration of the uh monoy theater property and the theater itself so uh I know there's some people in the community who don't believe that but at least that's the developer's uh intention if he does get a favorable ruling if not we're going to probably lose everything um so that's that's a problem for us but we you know Hope Springs Eternal just like with the boat house can't give up okay guys that's it from my perspective I don't anybody anything else they want to add or any other items for future agenda yes Nancy um I wondered if I may be just not you know quite up to speed on everything but do we have good um historical significance determination style guides uh for homes built in the 40s um like you know when you see a house a 19th century or 18th century home there's a lot of things that help you say this is this style you know Greek Revival it has this but whatever and I'm wondering for Cottages like you know some of the cute Cottages that are being demolished you know how how do we as individual Commissioners look at that and how is there any guides that we should be Gathering or do we already have them um that we should be when we consider is this historically significant in terms of a house built in 1942 as a cottage how what are we cons what should we be considering whether or not it's significant that's just a question maybe through the future or maybe we have these things on hand and I just need to look at them well it's a very good point uh we have we have wrestled with that one okay um and we wrestled with it Rel to the discussion of the 75 year old criteria whether we even are going to go there right and I think the last meeting we had it was generally I think the the term we use we're going to table that for now yeah uh the other way we have approached it uh is with Eric Drake our preservation consultant and we did the townwide survey we surveyed everything yes 50 years or more okay older which is the ne which is the Mass historic and I've seen all his things about recommended this and well that's you know it's been like 20 some years since we did that so we started it so then we decided the last time we had Eric and that we would we would take another look but not approach it from an individual home which you're suggesting but approach it more from groups of homes I.E River Bay and yeah I I think it's worthy of a discussion if you'd like I mean I'd be willing to p P together like some resources or style books or something like that that maybe we can just bring to site visits and have to look at or something if you can pull something together to for to start as a basis of a dialogue we'll find the meaning in which we're we're really open that I didn't want to the rail this one I just no no no I understand and I do appreciate that thank you very much Nancy all right anything else just yes sir a couple things quickly um and I appreciate Nancy's interest in this and I think we perhaps need to give some disc some thought to whether these are groups of cottages or whether they're isolated small homes and it necessarily have less of a neighborhood impact perhaps but I just out of curiosity one day I drove down I think is what's called Captain Richards way it's off 28 um just west of maxi food and if you drive down that street it's like a whole different world um there are any number of I'll call them Cottages built on stilts not on foundations um that are very very unique and as a group they're pretty historically significant I don't I think that's on the list sorry too okay it's okay I think that's on the list of the cottage colonies with um the one that's um on the other side of white they're on White Pond there's two one that's condominium ised and one's still person um privately owned and rented I think those are both on Eric Dre's list of things to consider I would it's a worthy of a discussion I would encourage you to take a look at it sometime because it's it's really unique I was couldn't believe I was in chatam looking at this and and they've been maintained this way they haven't most of them haven't changed at all we just did it like would Cosby Lan I mean that's a street or you know wow where' this come from you know there's a whole ction of houses but these have a very unique yeah you know no no Foundation they on't stilts um yeah which is great I think and just a couple of comments too on the um as as we look at the the um demolition by neglect discussion from what I've read with other with other towns that have done things there's a great lot great deal of flexibility in it there a lot of maze as opposed to must um have you know might as opposed to have to kind of a situation which I think we have to have in our in such a such a document because there was so many so many different types of um demolition by delay whether it's been a year whether it's been 10 years whether we have a long way to go on this we just we're just starting to walk and and interesting enough the the fact that you know even what Nancy just pointed out that our friends in Sandwich which is a very active historical commission they're pursuing it also you know and so we you know here we go all right guys okay very good and Nancy I do appreciate you putting something together and we'll we'll put it on the agenda okay unless there's anything else we'll do a roll call for Mr Le I move we adjourn and I vote I what are we voting for okay all right second please second thank you very much okay uh Bob oh Steve yes Nancy yes Stephanie yes Sandy yes Janet yes and the chair vot yes thank you very much I appreciate your time [Music] [Music]