e e e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] good morning hi this is Frank mesina and this is the June 18 2024 meeting of the chadam historical commission uh there are some uh notes we have to to say before we start uh before we do that I'd like to just just acknowledge the passing of one of our senior members and take a second Don Aman Don Aman has been a member of the historical commission for well must be 25 years and he was good friend and kind of my mentor when I joined 20 some years ago and uh just take a second just to acknowledge the passing of dawn um and the loss to uh to the community and to the historical Commission okay please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly Hereafter for scheduled and On Demand viewing in any smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting please notify the chairman seeing none pursuant to Governor Hy's March 29 2023 signing of Acts of the 2020 of Acts of 2023 extending certain provisions of the certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General law 3820 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chatam historical commission is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately address the proceedings as provided for in this order reminded that persons who would like to listen to this meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 508 945 4410 conference ID 177 104 321 hashtag or by joining the meeting online via Microsoft teams to the link posted on the agenda while this this is a live broadcast in Som cast on Channel TV despite our best efforts we will not be able to provide for real time access we will post the record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible I would just note in rereading this despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide for realtime access uh mother nature and uh the electrons are not necessarily cooperating this morning there might be an issue with the um online access and so we'll do our best to uh pause and see if we can reconnect that but just for the members public I see some members out there uh just so you know what's happening we may lose the connection okay thank you very much for the attention um I guess our first item of agenda is the roll call Bob Le Vice chair here Steve Burlingame clerk here Stephanie Hamilton here Sandy Porter here is that a here here got speak up into the mic Janet Tennyson is absent Robert stevensson here and Nancy bar here we are missing uh two members of the commission for regular members uh don of course and Janet Tennyson so both alternate members Robert stevensson and Nancy bar who normally would participate in all discussions will also in addition be active members in today's meeting and vote and I would note the chair votes here so we do have a quorum uh the first item on our agenda is the minutes we have minutes of uh June 4th 2024 Annie I gave you an A+ when I read these minutes so any comments questions or suggestions thank you second please second thank you very much uh let me just a quick comment you know I do appreciate the fact that you know in the minutes you you don't just say joeo was here but a few words you know a paragraph or so about what what the essence of the dialogue that that ensured I think that's important um and I do appreciate your your efforts in doing that okay roll call Mr Lear uh yes Steve yes Stephanie I have to abstain I wasn't here thank you Sandy yes uh Bob Stephen yes and Nancy yes and the chair vote yes thank you very much appreciate that okay uh we have two applications and a couple of items on the agenda that we're going to discuss and provide an update too and but let's get right to the applications the first application 2415 to be heard in the chapter 158 um 2 free mhill Lane Leslie can you step forward and give us an update this will be heard in addition to chapter 158 but also in accordance with Section 12E of the cape card commission act as it is a potentially contributing structure in the National registered District so if you can give us a quick overview good morning that was into the mic I'm Leslie schneberger architect for Andrew and Kelly friendley um Andrew is joining us online um and also with us is Jamie Norcross um the Kelly's home um was originally or is the Cyrus schooled house um as you've all seen um who was able were able to attend the site visit um it is a small cottage um very typical Cape uh and we are looking to do simple additions to it um the owners um are preservationists at heart um and their mother who pre proceeded them with the house was very conscientious to um take care of the house and maintain it it is very much in its original condition um so we needed to do um a few things so that the house will last even longer as the owner's family grows and as they use it a little bit in the off seon and as they're aging um the priorities were to get a stair that is a manageable stair rather than the very tight old stairs um up to the second floor um as well as some office space and a bathroom related to the primary bedroom um we did this by removing um I think I can get this to work hold that button hold it the whole time thank you aha um so off at the side of the house um the side entry that faces the driveway um we intend to uh remove the sidewall uh to make space for an addition right in this area here uh the windows that you see in blue as well as that window that is not in blue but is obviously within that area and the door will all be removed um the windows that are blue are actually going to be reused um the one down at the bottom will be used at the front of the house um and then the one up at the top will be moved closer to the existing window here in the Gable um the reason for moving them is because they're going to be viewed with the other windows that are existing historic windows and we didn't want it to be out of keeping um then the area right here over what is currently the kitchen and um what seems to me in viewing their form B was built in maybe the 60s um is where we'll be removing the roof but actually keeping interior there are some Rafters in the kitchen um keeping those and putting new joists up above that to build a second floor that will house that office and additional bathroom um if we could go forward um there's also some work with the existing Dormer gets opened up as well um because when this roof pops up it needs to join over to the main house um again a window that is being removed and reused next to the existing Windows um while that one we do not have a location for that is coming out um the addition is planned to be um as much in keeping with the existing house as possible um the part closest to the driveway is now going to be housing a mudroom so it helps um buffer hot or cold air when you come into the house cuz not normally you come right into the dining room this creates an anti- space and a space that you can put things down um they had a very small mudroom and that mudro is being lost to create the larger stare we've worked with um the home has all of its existing beams exposed actually in the dining room and we've worked within that pattern um to get the stairs to fit uh going right up without disturbing the house or the structure but it took away their mudroom so we're creating new um and with that I will take questions why don't you do me a favor just show the elevations that you have I think it's 20 and 21 that is the existing that is the area being removed and the other area being removed and I think if we go even further down we'll find you're looking for the proposed y so this is the this is the completed correct so you can see um now that I know how to do this um this area right here is the existing um cape and then this right here is the proposed this window is the one that came down from that lower area of the Gable matching the others um this is that addition uh from the driveway side um worked very hard to match the roof pitches and come down just slightly on where it's all positioned so that it comes in and steps in the original trim remains but we're matching and carrying it Forward um um we're using the same size window that we've taken out of the little area here um but because this this elevation um is new material we're using a new window in this as well and they'll all be simulated divided light matching the um the existing ones um then this here is the addition um that houses the bath and office uh going over the kitchen area to break that up because it it these are very low ceilings we had to use as as much roof as we could um or height as we could but didn't want to obviously go any higher than the existing Cape um we broke that up by putting a little Farmers porch coming off of their side patio which is their only outdoor space for entertaining and so this just becomes an exra see the what the the Farmers porch would look like and then go to the the South the North elevation if you could so so because um of the addition at the back uh you can't see the farmers's porch so we did actually as a section just to help understand what this is looking like I find the these are all computer generated um uh actually the elevations and plans that are proposed are handdrawn so these here are they handrawn correct oh okay I thought somebody magically had a computer there are filters to make it like it was handrawn it was my filter I mean you know it's getting it's getting so you know compared to what it used to be you know you know with a slide rule in a French curve right I I use some of this I'm dating myself okay all right um thank you very much um let's start uh thank very very nice presentation as always uh Leslie and uh thank you let's see what comments go around the room uh start with you Sandy any comments are you going will you be reusing or not reusing maybe putting the um solar panel back on the roof as much as possible yes um and the nice thing the advantage about the solar panels that you saw on the first elevations on that kitchen L is um the addition is much higher so actually the panels will become much less visible because to eye level they will be up higher great and you're going to try to save those pears those pear trees yes thank you nice very nice presentation thank you very much Steph just just wondering you're going to put the same Cedar up on the new portion yes correct thank you Steve generally I think it's fine um I would like to talk a little bit about that small window on the U South elevation it's going to be removed and discarded apparently um South elevation right there yeah that's that's the small window there my understanding is that's going gone as opposed to going moving um well truth be told um we're still looking at putting it actually on the exact opposite elevation uh but it has not worked out we'd have to come back to you um if we can make it work um because it's in a closet area we're looking to rearrange some things so if you wouldn't mind going down to I believe the very last page um so you can see here there's another one of those little Windows um we're looking if we can get it to fit in here but we haven't determine that um with the structure we're working out um we would have to come back to you if we do so we're reserving it for that or you're right it wouldn't be reused those that small window is a little bit larger than most small windows that appear in that location under the eaves um but they are a nice feature of an Old Cape um you also talked on the new South elevation that there will be a small window in the Gable but it will not be the window that's being removed we looked originally at it using the um the window that is being removed and so it does match its proportions but as I said um the new windows while they'll have the same mutton size they'll be simulated divided light GRS on the outside and inside um I feel pretty strongly that they're going to look different and I don't want to emphasize the difference between the new ones and the historic one on the same elevation that's why we're using um every every effort we can to reuse the existing when you see them all together um and then when we do new to do the new together I just hate to see see you lose such a u important historical um ministration but other than that Leslie you've done a nice job as usual and U thank you thank you good one quick comment you know guys the microphone's so important to me because I'm so deaf as a Dorell but do me a favor when you're talking just move your microphone to the right because the microphone's over here and you're talking now way okay just it'll help me members of the public possibly too Nancy um I appreciate the designs in your presentation and my answers that I have H sorry my questions that I had have been answered good Robert yes I think you did a great presentation thank you um it seems a little crowded to me but I realize that you're working with very difficult constraints in on every level so so that's that it just seems like you won't have much of a driveway true um I was commenting uh with Jamie on the Form B for the project actually um part of its historic description is that it's in an an area that um the homes are uniquely close together and over setbacks and it's part of the charm of that area which I thought was quite ironic that's a good way to explain it anyway you've done a nice job thank you yeah it it was truly it was truly a cottage Community you know when uh I wouldn't say the Jersey Shore but things were really close you know uh Bob I'm I'm all in favor of it Frank reminds me I was looking at picture yesterday of my in-laws from probably the 1930s or something in that neighborhood so I'm very familiar with it um and I'd also just like to reiterate what Frank said about the microphone if you miss a meeting and you need to uh be able to vote on it at a later session you need to uh watch the tape and hear it and if I get back here it does not get picked up so it's even more frustrating if you're watching the recording uh I appreciate that Bob and we have a couple of Whispers In in the on the commission thank you uh a nice job and U I'm really pleased that the um looks like the home is moving from one one part of the family to the other and um and looks like a very very comfortable place uh I'm going to be tough for a year round one I assume it's mostly a summer most a summer a summer residence when unfortunately that's what happens around here we get these nice little cottages and stuff like that and somebody decides to make it a year round residence and they want a bowling alley and everything else and uh there we go but again uh thank you very much to the owners and appreciate your efforts and trying to preserve this uh this little cottage in the U in a very historic area of the Old Village you know there's the old village and there's the Old Village this is truly the the central part of the uh historic Old Village and um boy it looks like it might be an application for an awards in the future perhaps so anyway having said that I think we have a general consensus now as Christina holds up the card to remind me public comments thank you any member of the public wish to speak for or against the application in the meeting or in online seeing none okay we could proceed all right we need a uh a motion M Mr Vice chair yes um I moved that well first do chapter 158 first I move to the chat historical commission finds that the building located at 23 mil Hill Lane is historic ly significant because it is in whole or in part 75 years old or more is located with the within the chadam reg National register District or the Old Village National register district and the commission Alo also finds it is associated with one or more historical persons in the economic life of the community and possesses architectural value or style in terms architectural values are in terms of period and style I'll second thank you any the comments roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy yes and the chair vote Yes okay all right second part of chapter 158 the chadam historical commission also finds that the proposed work to be done dated um May 15 2004 will not materially diminish the historic significance for the building and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay I'll second second Stephanie any other comments okay Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy yes and the chair votes yes okay I there's one more okay Cod Commission motion I move the chadam historical commission confirms that the home built located at 23 mhill Lane is a contributing structure in the National Historic register District I'll second second thank you very much any of the comments seeing none roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy yes and the chair vote Yes and second part of his uh Cape Cod Commission I move the chadam historical commission finds that the materials presented this date showing that proposed alterations do not constitute a substantial alteration to a contributing structure located in the National Historic register district and therefore a referral to the Cape Cod Commission for review is not necessary I'll second second again run a roll any other comments all right roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy and the chair vote yes thank you very much and um I guess appreciate the friendly n friendly family and uh thank you very much for what you're doing there appreciate it thank you thank you Leslie okay the next application Jamie excuse me just quickly quick aside did you get my message from Mr Riley no in reference to that house that they're they're looking to get access to to potentially Salvage on Crow Road he didn't give the message I canse all right thank you thank you very much I apologize ladies and gentlemen I want to take the take advantage of uh seeing him leaving okay uh application 2416 this is be heard in the chares with chapter 158 uh 151 old Harbor Road originally filed by our dear and departed friend Mark Z Brad and um in his presence and absence we have introduce yourself my name is Jonathan Welch I'm here representing the matters family at 151 old Harbor Road and uh filling in for our late mark zebr on his request for this this is my first time doing this so bear with me uh we'll be nice to you all right I can handle it all right the uh I I met some of you on the site visit yesterday um were a couple things I think brought up and I've gotten some answers uh just overnight last night um this is an older home at one point it was a multif family there's a lot of history in the house I've learned about uh I've done quite a bit of work on the house and on the on the back Barn as well uh uh I believe the dubis family actually lived in this house at one point um and uh anyways the uh uh it's a second home in the town of chattam to get Town water actually on their water bill it says number two in chattam bars in was number one uh they brought it down old Harbor Road from what I heard so it's an old house um what they're looking to do here is uh simply put on an 11 by I believe 26 foot addition on the northeast side of the home which would be the right uh side of the house looking from old Harbor Road um and this is basically to uh move the master primary Suite to the first floor uh for Keith and Wendy um uh from the second floor uh just extending that one bedroom and adding a bathroom to that area um there there's going to be a if you want to if you want to go to the next actually you can stay on that so you see on the right side here we've got uh basically just an 11t uh addition there's a 1ot reveal on that corner um on the top of that that'll be a rubber roof with uh with a decking material on that of mahogany panels uh and that will give Lauren and Amy the the two girls the daughters access from their bedroom upstairs which they share to uh come out and check out the view all right um if you could go to the next page there please that's the rear elevation um from what you see pretty much from their driveway uh the gravel driveway from the back same thing just an 11 foot extension on uh on the that would be the southeast side uh that's on the on the left side of the drawing right yes sir pointed out yeah correct y um and uh if you could go to the next next page please um this is a better view of what they're really trying to accomplish here here um so you'll see there that's the uh that would be a slider with the fix panel um these are all Marvin ultimate brand sdl uh which the rest of the house has the same you know they've redone those at times um so this's a slider out of the bedroom correct yep and upstairs on the out of the bedroom uh there was two windows here those will be replaced with a 6 slider um for the girls to come out and uh hang out on the deck all right um that we're pretty much just going to copy everything else in the house it's just going to be cedar cedar a sidewall Marvin Integrity Windows um there's no historical trim or significance getting removed uh because that was a newer section of the home uh that had been added on to uh not too long ago um the rails on the second floor on the on the deck up here will also be an ASAC material uh so they'll be bright white uh to match the rest of the trim uh that's pretty much it is what I got for you well let me start by saying um this this property goes back to the 1920s and it is uh in my opinion a a very good example as it point out in the uh Form B of A Bungalow Craftsman property in 1920s we don't have a lot of Craftsmen in chatam but this is a true U example of one you know kind of my view occasionally this commission has discussions of historical significance and like everything's got to be 1700 well in this case this is 1920s it does fall under our bylaw 75 years but it also is a unique you know craftsman style Bungalow um I'll be honest with you when I look at it and look at the The Form B and look at the that drawing says it all to me you know it's a bit much in terms of uh now granted it's the side of the house but it's a side that this seen from the street granted the side street and it completely loses the uh in my view the Elegance of a Craftsman uh the slope roof and we got these patios and Sliders you know and then on top it off I guess we all of those of us who made the side visits was reg grin at the loss of that large tree you know for it in all due respect you know a walk-in closet you know and a bathroom so I don't know I know this is the very uh you know General comments but I do have have issues with it and how you approached it this in terms of not making it consistent with the the lines and the quality of the existing Craftman home so I got to citate on this one a little bit and the let the other members of the commission speak can I add to yeah what I do disagree with uh being in the business and and and whatnot um the great thing about a Craftsman home is they are not symmetrical you know there's a lot of different additions if you look at the the other side of the home uh so by adding this I don't think you're losing that look um well I think you're G you're gaining a lot of functionality for for the owner no question to get in functionality but look at the lines of the existing and then look at the lines of these squared off boxes that you're adding right C can we go to the left side elevation of this please so again there's many different roof lines pitches additions and bump outs throughout the house including all sloped right which is typical of Craftsman anyway well L we I got you L let me go around the room let start at this side Nancy I wasn't there yesterday so I haven't seen it in person except for driving by I don't have the same challenge say that again I haven't been there except for driving by so what I say is you know with a grain of salt because some of you were there um I don't have the same problems with it that you do Frank I I I I hear what you're saying and it's a good point regarding the Craftsman I mean it definitely is let me step back it's a great example of a craftsman style house and we need to be focusing on homes that were built 1920s and moving forward more modern um more than we have as a commission in the past so I think it's important that we do consider this as a significant architectural contribution to that period I don't find that the proposed additions ruin that for me but I think you made a good point thank you Robert well it's a beautiful house that's the first thing that struck me and it's a beautiful yard with some beautiful views it's a nice nice house and uh uh in understanding what you're doing I realize you're I I realize what you're trying to accomplish but uh for me it looked just too boxy and and that's what really um uh it it just looked like it was a very modern addition put on this beautiful older structure I I wondered if anywhere along the road please don't take this in any personal or negative way but I'm just wondering if along the way any any um preservationists that had some kind of credential came and maybe tossed out their ideas uh this is honestly something I could have come up with on my own without any help um I'm in favor of homeowner rights so um I'm probably not one to tell you what you can do or not do but but um it it this didn't do it quite for me Bob well I agree that the uh the idea is fine um I also agree with Frank that um we should be trying to preserve more of these uh shapes and I guess like Robert looking at it I was trying to think how could you get your goals with having something that's not quite so boxy um but again I come from the old village which is made up of old houses with things added on them um not quite as different things as you're proposing here I guess so um I'm still somewhat up in the air I I I don't I think what you want to do in terms of purpose is great but whether the execution could be improved is I think it could so Sandy I actually um just try to get closer to the microphone move the microphone closer to you don't hey go pick it up too heav I um agree with and I don't often agree with Frank but I happen to really agree with Frank on this issue and um you got to save that tree yeah Jeff um I first of all want to thank you for the plans it helps so much for me to see the proposed and the existing on the same page okay um I agree it's boxy but I don't see it as something that I could not vote for yeah I'm so sorry Steve I am not up in the air um the the uh prman style I think is l ually preserve you're staying away from any changes to that from which is the to me the the primary part of that is the front of the house um that's craftmas style to me um it's going to remain it's um I'm looking at this series of pictures and the um on the right hand side the second picture down I me I've never seen such an accumulation of additions on on one house on in one picture um none of which perfectly mimic the craftsman style um if the craftsman style of this house was extraordinary it was destroyed many editions ago um in my estimation I agree with Nancy that um yeah in a perfect world and a um if it's sort more of a perfect Craftsman house that hadn't been Disturbed before I'd look at it little more closely um but in this situation um I I understand the need for an addition for you or your clients um and I its location on the house is not to me doesn't substantially interfere with the craftsman style that the house had and still has in many many respects and I will certainly you support the application yeah yeah I tend to agree with some of the comments the fellow members are making but uh just because other changes were made not necessarily consistent with the fall it doesn't mean we have to continue it but um and we've been this has been before us a number of times this property and and we have authorized changes specifically in the in the garage area and stuff like that but this one just just kind of bothers me especially when I look at that drawing and and uh and yeah you could you could put an addition on there you know and you could have done more in my opinion from a design perspective my dear friend Mark zebr listening to me from up there and I think Mark would have taken what we had to say and say yeah you're right let me go back and take another look at it uh and find another way to to accomplish the functionality that that they want to put in and um and so I just just it just bothers me to lose that that functionality uh that I mean that that design on that side of the house so anyway that's my opinion having said that Frank can I I think we need a motion sorry sorry can I just sorry I know I had a chance to speak but I would like to say something else to me one of the things that is important is that they're coming in for a demo delay bylaw and the part that they of the house that they are demolishing in order to do the addition is not the historic part of the house it is an addition that was done quite Tastefully in following the historic roof lines so you're you are I I totally get what you're saying but I do think it's important that you know I we're not in the old village and it's an important house contributing to a historic structure but we are not talking about de demolishing a part of the historic structure itself and that to me is important I agree with you but we have already determined this house to be historically significant so we don't have to go back there but we could no no I'm just saying but I think it's important to consider what part what part of the house they're demolishing right do that all the time my right leg is historic but my left leg is not I know but Frank we do that all the time with houses that are great and we say well this is a modern addition that you're changing I'm it's just a point I don't want to argue I that's all right argument is good it's good for the soul yeah all right at this particular point we probably talked it out somebody want to make a motion Bob well I I I'm going to assume before I do that there's a consensus that it remains historically significant yeah why don't we do it again agree okay um I'm both at the chatam Historical commission find that the house located at uh 151 old Harbor Road is historically significant because it is in whole whole or in part 75 years old or more um and it is associated with some historical persons in the town of chadam and it possesses architectural value or significance in terms of its period and style I'll second thank you Steph any other comment Bob yes Steve yes yes Steph Yes Sandy no was that a yes no that it's not historically significant yes but I thought we established that yes no yes we did that one again Robert yes Nancy yes J vot yes okay Robert Bob I Gotta Give Bob and Robert I'll get that right well let's we'll start with the Positive offer the positive Chad turn on your light turn off your light sorry chadam historical commission also finds the proposed work to be done dated Mark Mark Mark May 15 2024 will not materially diminish the historic significance of the building and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay second second all right okay we're going to do a roll call Bob no no Steve yes Stephanie yes Sandy no Robert no Nancy yes and the chair votes no so we determined that it is it it is it an impact to the historical significance 4 to three but you didn't impose a demolition delay in that motion yes you did you did did I overhear you I said does not impose a demolition delay okay fine all right does not impose a demolition delay which was turned down which was just turned down so now a motion would be if we want to impose a demolition delay what does that mean we'd like you to take another look at the design that's all we're saying take a look at it so uh I would say reasonably and if we no matter what we impose you can come back here tomorrow and give us something if you decide to do that rather than SC out the delay a three-month demolition delay is that something that could be give the applicant an opportunity to take a look at it sounds fair to all right why don't you that sound fair to me all right all I move that the you want me to move it B why don't you do go ahead or either one I move that we impose a 3mon demolition delay on on the property 151 old haror road we get a second second all right a second any other discussion yes yes sir I I think that if we are going to impose the 30 but 3 month demolition delay uh we should have a little more discussion to give some direction to the designer um as to what we would be looking for and we've about the only thing that I Come Away with is a little boxy or too boxy well that's about it I think I think the I think he understands what we're talking about that's that's what I'm trying to get at is is to make is to be clear that if the design were to change uh if you were to bring back a change and you don't have I think I made that point to him he can come back at any time with an alternate design to discuss with the chair and then bring it back to the commission I understand can I can I finish yeah hurry up um that you need not come back with any change you know it's up to you it's it's it's the delay is a delay but I'm what I'm anxious to do is to give you a little bit of direction so that um you don't come back with another box or or whatever um I don't think I haven't heard any comments about the size of the addition uh as being inappropriate um it's just the the roofline kind of consideration um thank you are you done apparently I'm done good I think we we made this very clear to him I'm I'm happy that you want to repeat it again but I think we made it very clear to him that it's an issue of the design and the lines of the Craftsman house and you're right absolutely it's obvious I think I said that he doesn't have to come back but he can come back but I'm trying to make it easy for him to come back with the decision okay all right let's do a roll call Bob and somebody what are we voting on we're voting on a three-month demolition delay and Sandy seconded it I second I'm sorry okay second second had the discussion thank you we need the vote so we have a 3-month demolition delay that was voted and seconded so I'm doing a roll call on the 3mon demolition delay Bob yes Steve no Steph no uh Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy yes I'll support the three mon yes thank you and the chair vote Yes one more time to make it clearer because Mr Burlingham doesn't think it made it clear enough you can come back at any time call Christina if you have something I already know what you want okay and again I'm already in there you with me all right do you have any other questions before we leave you from the jury here I have a I do have one comment go I think one design I'm not an architect by any means but I'll have it obviously on paper is uh you know a way to save the tree and to give you the if possible the Craftsman style that you're looking for uh I would just clip the two corners uh of that building rather than it being a complete Square I just bring them back two feet on each Corner have a nice I think I think we could do that different look Paul could Paul could put something nice together I'm going right over there how's he doing see you tomorrow how's he doing he's doing okay okay give a regards from the commission I thank you very much thank you okay all right guys the simple ones are always not necessarily simple we have two other items I wanted to discuss under new business but uh let me let me jump to Old business first just to get that out of the way uh the uh the issue of the listing of the Nickerson family dig on the um National register uh as a historical site uh as I indicated last time Holly is talking about October to complete that U interesting enough the uh Nickerson Family Association did a a talk on Saturday as part of History weekend by uh former Judge Gary Nickerson who was intimately involved in the Dig and uh it was quite interesting uh I I think he's going to be doing it again uh and and we've been in touch with um with with Holly at at at the uh uh pal her archaeological firm to try and move that along because I think there's a lot of interest from the Nickerson Family Association to move this forward so um hopefully we'll we'll see if we can get this to mass historic sometime before the end of the year and then deal with the issue of a proposal and I'm I'm saying bringing this up officially to let the Christina know we need to have a conversation with um with the director of U of the Community Development that we might need find a way for funding um and just correct me again p uh CP person you you not you personally there's nothing personal you know yes sir the CPC turned us down the last time we applied for a for a to do a study and that's still just the sense of the current CPA yes okay so I just wanted to confirm that again so we're going to probably have to go find uh some other funding I was thinking of a bake sale um or something like that uh I think it's about 10 grand wash lemonade say again car wash right Car Wash something like that okay uh the other thing just on Old business is the return of the Coast Guard boat house if you go down to um stage Harbor on uh 90 Bridge Street there's a lot of work being done you know putting a new bulkhead in so it's proceeding even though you know our boat house is still up in Quinsy and you know Hope Springs Eternal to bring that down okay having got that out of the way Frank yes if I may yes yes ma'am just because um I think you need to have this in the minutes before we adjourn we we imposed a 90-day demo delay on the last he on the last hearing we had did not state as of today's date yeah that's when it usually is okay just from the the way it works traditionally it's uh what Christina writes a determination which by the way will make this perfectly clear in the write up of the determination of what we're doing and I think the applicant understands he has you know uh three months to to think about it or come back to us and you know and we will do that you know U you know whether or not it's a good question what I would the process usually that we've done in the past when somebody comes back he comes back to Christina Christina gives it to me you know I take a look at it we say yeah I I think this has a good opportunity if he comes back and you know doesn't change anything you know we can tell them it's your choice you could come back formally but I don't think you hit it you know you're not there and so there's a bit of a dialogue back and forth we don't want to waste people's time and money including us now unfortunately we don't have another meeting it's a good question our next meeting which is potentially in July is an issue but that's only like a month away so it would be in September so I think officially we're going to have a not have a problem in in U in noticing the meeting if somebody coming back we still have to notice it correct um we would have a meeting in August we have one scheduled in August so it would be before September if they're coming back okay so you know we hey we bend over backwards to facilitate the applicants trust me I say we Christina the office when when they came back we would then potentially have another vote to lift it to lift the demolition Del that's the way it works very simply we this is not the first rodeo for us guys okay uh what I wanted to do is to um is to oh you gave me all the copies didn't you and I if you could pass them down to the say again they did not pass it down that way Steve would you send them down thank you you got it and so everybody has got a copy this is Eric Eric Dre's uh comment to me you know we updated the survey plan and he he took a look at it and I'm going to read it he streamlined the survey plan recommendations so on page six and I'm not going to do it now because obviously everybody hasn't done it their homework so to speak on page six of the updated survey which you now have everybody has this Christina okay so in the updated survey plan which you now have okay on page six Eric made some recommendations okay and what I really would like you to do is to is to really think about it because this is potentially another expenditure of money but uh what we should prioritize his recommendation is he that we should update the form B's that were completed between 78 and 91 okay he's attached an example and the example is uh on uh I guess it's uh 239 Main Street yeah 239 Main Street which is an example of a of a formb that was done back in 91 and they did a good job but you know there's a lot has happened since then if we could just take a quick look I think you have it or you don't have it we'll make it available of the kind of work that was done then God love us a lot of stuff handwritten you know I remember when I first got on the commission with my dear friend Don Aman the members of the commission did the form B's right Nancy we were each to sign like 30 or 40 addresses and said go do the Form B and I said to myself what did I get into by joining this commission and very soon afterwards we realized that we were not professionals although someone like Nancy is those of us who were not said no I don't want to do this it's it's hard and then we began the process of hiring professionals professional preservation consultant to do it and that's where we are having said that we still had a lot of form BS which were not done professionally and you know I I always I thought was fascinated by the town of Cham and its boards and Commissioners not taken to court more often because if we went to court on whether something is historically significant with this handwritten pie of stuff you know the judge will probably throw it out so what we're trying to do is just to make things more legalistic and codified you know it's one thing for Frank mine to say something's historically significant it's another thing for a preservation consultant somebody who's a professional to say something in terms of that so that that's that's the first question there uh should we take a look at as Eric said with those applications between 78 and 91 I'm not asking to look at everyone but just a general example of what whether or not we should do uh um the other thing he he felt there was about 120 form bees located within the national register District in the in the current uh and he would take another look at some of those form bees which were done so anyway you just take a look at it look at the survey you know get get yourself a sense of it because if I go back to for money to the historical commission I mean to the Community Development I want to make sure we're all least thinking I don't expect everybody to dot every eye across anys but take a look at it and you can always go on the macros and look at any of the form bees that you want so that's that's where we are uh the other recommendation that he made Frank just a quick Interruption um is that something like this I appreciate it's it's somebody who really cared about these things that made an effort rather to send it back and have it all retyped and mograph or whatever they did back in those days you know put down some important information and I I wouldn't put this down I appreciate the fact that it was somebody somebody's effort at making an update it makes perhaps it makes it a little bit more real a little more quaint a little more period to just see somebody really trying to improve upon an orted piece of property that's all we don't we don't lose them by the way when you go to macros in addition to the updated one these are there yeah in other words it's not lost in history you know that whoever did this Tina dorm in 1975 1976 you know her work is there it's part of the history yeah it's just that when you look at as it as time goes by you know it records are more accessible things are known you know and and it's it's a more hate to use it more professional way to approach something like that when you make a determination yeah this thing is really historically significant uh the other the other form the other the other recommendations if you will was the issue of the area forms okay we talked about this but we never made a decision of whether or not we should do something and I'm looking at uh the bottom of page six where he asked that we take a look at I can't pronounce that mashia pit uh there's a a cottage Community 15 Cottages along pus Trail in South chadam and there's Harding Shores and Harding Beach Hills uh a two adjacent example of post World War subdivisions uh and of course last but not least the infamous River bag so what Eric is saying here is that you know just that we looked at a house today which was built in 1925 and 1930 uh you know 50 years from now these these collection of homes you know are going to possibly hopefully still exist and there should be some documentation that's not to say we're going to take River Bay and put it on the national register but what it does say that we're going to spend a little money and time to have Eric look at what happened when was River Bay built and anybody no late early say again late 50s early late 50s I think the first I think it was subdivided in late sorry I have to go back and check I think it was subdivided in the late 50s I'm not sure the first homes were built until after 1960 850s that means it's almost 75 years old guys yeah we know that so before we start to just oh it's River Bay we're not going to we let's look at what looking at you know just as we looked at a house from 1924 and said well there's something that could be saved or some kind of thing you know let's at least document document it I mean by the purpose of the Commission in addition to saving everything or trying to save everything is to document what we have before we lose it and that's the purpose here so give you some give us some good thought and I'm going to come up with some specific questions and before our next meetings you know I'll say what do you think about this this this and then we'll make some decisions on Eric's earing so you have again you have Eric's menu memo okay you have the uh the you know shortcut of the survey not the whole survey and you got examples of what he's talking about of homes of of form B's that he thinks should be updated and then we'll take it from there uh to see what we want to do okay uh secondly Nan in joining the commission is a troublemaker and and she said welcome Nancy she said well you know just what we needed and I know my friend Steve to my right has often said we should be looking at some of these things and and I say yes and I write them down but I don't know about your life my life's complicated at Leisa has been very complicated the last year and a half as I stand up straigh is look at the issues on hold okay I'm just going to review the bylaw relative to the current 75-year acceptance should it be changed should it be 100 should it be 25 development of a preservation plan what does that mean a plan on how the commission would proceed to you know we're talking about how we're going to do potentially form as's and B's well this is the document a plan other than Frank M's head or some notes written down expansion of the administrative review process this one I really really would like to do and that is we have an administrative review process which currently allows an applicant not to come before the full commission saves a lot of time and money when there's minor changes to a property and and you know the process we have is three members of the commission and by the way I've lost two Don and and and Janet which used to do this for me in addition to Don so I'm going to be calling upon other members of the commission and basically what happens is when when um uh Christina gets an an applicant and Christina makes a decision like somebody comes before the commission they want to pay 150 bucks and do a full application and cistina will say wait a second this could be an administrative review you don't have to do a full application you don't have to hire a lawyer we can possibly handle that and she'll make a determination well just a window change in the back of the property is something like that and so then what she'll do is they fill out an administrative uh review application no cost no charge and she send it to me I'll look at it and I'll say okay let's take a look at it quite honestly if it's something I believe is Chairman that it really this is a full application it's a national register property in the Old Village no you you got to come back to us and then if not then what I do is I usually call Bob and Don or Janet and I say would you independently go take a look at that and give me your determination chrina would send you the drawings electronically you would take a look at it at your free time and then we would say well we got two yes one no well that's it you know and we approve the administrative riew then the administrative review comes back to the commission for us to what's the term we ratification of the previous decision okay soank let me just say that the change the way we changed the bu law is that two um Commissioners would look at it independently not not the three you just referred to and the two had to age in order for it to thank you for the correction I appreciate that um it wasn't the bylaw it was the rules and rs right yes was the rules and regs that we put it in we did have to have a public hearing on it though say again we had to have public Hearing in order to do yes we had a rule public hearing on the rules in regs change whenever we make the rules in reg right now with this is all about is whether or not a property is historically significant Steve has often had this question well is this really historically significant and so the process for determination of historically signic to sub to submit an application is it 75 years okay well something could be 75 years but it really ain't historically significant okay and the applicant as we all know will we'll get these applications comes before us we say well this is a this is a slam dunk you know and we just say it's not historically significant so the question is do we want to expand the administrative review process to allow an independent person possibly a consultant a lot of towns do this to make the determination that it may be 75 years but no way is this historically significant and do an administrative review issue let me just make one point the problem reason we have to talk about this is currently the only way a property can be determined to be historically significant or not is by the bylaw that the full commission has to do it so this would require a change to the bylaw a big deal but it's something to look into I'm sorry Steph good no I'm just thinking when Bob reads the whole thing when Bob reads the whole thing he says 75 years and then he says sign other things that would qualify so it's not just 75 years well that 75 years is the threshold to start it but what if someone's uh let's say something's 45 years old and it belonged to President Reagan I agree so well now see you're having the discussion why we shouldn't do it and I I guess I would like to the next time we get together we'll have more of a discussion of why we should or should not do it okay I'm sorry Steve you want to say yes I just I think we had a perfect example a few months ago there's a property on Highland Avenue it was a it was a big box it didn't didn't have any architectural detail whatsoever um the one of the owners people remembered was a fisherman his wife used to feed the pigeons um and we decided that it was historically significant um I think we have a that's historical significance itself we need to question a bit I mean just because somebody was a fisherman and we remember that his wife used to feed the pigeons doesn't make it historically significant for me the fact that he was a fisherman and kind of a character doesn't make it occupied by some significant member of the chadam community so I think that that when we get to those situations I think we need to spend a little more Det in time um make sure it is actually historically significant and that house was more than 75 years old and I think we said yeah that's it historically significant and we turned it down um we also had some concerns about previous development by the the owner and what it was going to look like but I um I just think was a good example of we we just need to talk about historic significance a bit more than to just read off the the you're bringing in another another subject so to speak you know what I'm what we're talking about is whether or not we want to delegate that decision uh but obviously you're not feeling we should because you want to have more of a dialogue on it and that's fine occasionally occasionally not not always but occasionally yes that's that's opinion but you know a lot of this is not unfortunately this is not the zoning board where it's uh there's lore and it says 25 ft versus 30 this is history and history is a lot of opinion okay so we'll talk about that more think about it and the other one is kind of um we wait the demolition delay uh excuse me the yeah the demolition by neglect again we're waiting for the town to hire a planner who can give us a hand on this thing so it just stays on hold by lack of staff at this particular Point can I just ask a quick question about that yes ma'am are there examples um from the region of demolition by neglect bylaws just has anybody have we done anything yet or are we just kind of waiting is is that something that would be well Stephanie go Stephanie yes we did stuff and it was all brought before us quite a while ago um and then I believe it was brought forth with our last planner the same things I see so some stuff has been done but it needs to be redate updated okay I'd love to see if any any of that if we have it well it was the previous planner Ryan christenberry who did who started the work there are some towns which actually have one orans is the best example they have a demolition or a Ryan she just used the information I had had say again you can she just used the information that I had sent right well she did do some she looked into some other towns too well I don't know I I was on the end of it but either way uh Orleans is is an interesting example they have a bylaw to looking at uh demolition by neglect but IT addresses just homes on the national register which quite candidly is not a bad way to get your nose Under the Tent in other words start with something like that homes on the national register or possibly homes in a national register District you know etc etc etc so you know there was a lot of discussion and dialogue unfortunately she left and we we just it stopped okay thank you if you have nothing to do with your life you want to pick it up you're welcome anyway um I think that's it I've spoken enough uh so anyway that's where we are in our July meeting which will probably be just discussion of these items we will discuss it okay I wanted to give a heads up so we don't give anybody uh last minute what is this do you still want us to pick two that we think are the most important somewhere I read that you wanted us no I didn't okay I I didn't think about that it's well we'll sorry some of them are going to be now forget about it but you know let's at least talk about it I don't want it to be my decision yes sir yeah is it too late for me to comment on this I'm sorry on this 75 year sure good can I comment on it yeah absolutely I've been thinking a lot about this is uh and I'd ask everyone to consider what I'm considering is for you guys have been here way longer than I have uh but let's say over the last 10 years if we just said it was 100 years instead of 75 years the question that I'm asking myself is would we have missed any significant historical property if it had been moved to 100 just 100 as an arbitrary number so that's the first question would we have missed anything from elevating it another 25 years the second question that I would ask if everybody to think about is if we went the other direction and let's say moved it to 50 years just hypothetically 50 years could we in fact uh get an early identification of a house that one day will be historically significant so that people don't wreck it early in the process so I'm kind of looking at it on both both sides of the of the uh needle here and I'm only bringing this up so that we can think about what we're doing well you know it's like the Goldilocks thing here uh nationally it's 50 years Mass historic uses 50 years to determine something whether something could be listed on a national register historic places so you know it's like you know just right you know is it in the middle and quite candidly the national Norm is 75 years pretty much for historical commissions those not every state has a historical commission and not every Community has one but 75 years seems to be the one that's kind of just right but so I'm so I'm wondering if there's really a need to address that well I'm only Havoc because Steve brought it up I don't know I was going to say who brought it up Steve it would may very well be is what in what context we we set the 75 years 75 years can be one of the criteria um it might be the major criteria but not the only criteria so that so the Craftsman House craftsman style house on Old Academy um that we talked about this morning um if if that's within it's only 60 years well okay it's it's important we can do it in the 75 years won't make any won't make any difference on the other hand um it might so maybe we just need to take a look at 75 years and what does it mean is it the is it the only criteria is it substantial criteria I think we just need to address that just a little bit and probably fine-tune it I think another reason another reason it was brought up I believe is because we realized that riverbay was going to be reaching the 75 limit well it just it just seems to me that 75 is is just kind of a starting point it's just one of many criteria it is it is quite honestly it's not the criteria because we see 75y old structures all the time that we wouldn't pay an in I want to thank our vice chair Bob leer when he came on the commission immediately pointed out you guys were saying 75 years but you weren't giving the other reasons we may have talked about it and we may have said it in discussion but we didn't actually include it in the in the determination so it we're making progress how old is the commission we're getting there members yeah all right guys unless anybody's got something important would it how about I'd like to make a motion that we adjourn this meeting very good uh no discussion I assume second that Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Sandy yes Robert yes Nancy and ch ch thank you very much thank you Christina [Music] [Music] for