##VIDEO ID:gmxXfbEUPGY## e e e e e [Music] [Music] a [Music] oh um welcome uh to the uh planning board hybrid meeting this is September 23rd 2024 uh my name is Art spru the chair of the planning board please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly thereafter for scheduled and On Demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device if anyone is recording the meeting please notify the chair I don't hear or see anybody uh pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29 20203 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General Law chapter 3A section 20 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chadam planning board is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings as provided for in the order a reminder that the person who would like to listen to this meeting will while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 1508 945 4410 conference ID 52071 0156 pound or join the meeting via uh online Microsoft teams through link the link in the posted agenda while this is a live broadcast and simal cast on the chadam TV formerly channel 18 despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide for Real Time access we will post a meet post a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible I'd like to begin with a roll call uh cathine Katherine hurn present and Warren crane Warren chain present um Bob wor shaer is absent um Charlene Greenhall Charlene greenhow cheer um Frank Shear present and Bob dubis Bob dubis present and arts breu is present all right i' like to begin with the minutes uh reviewing the minutes of the August 26 2024 meeting are there any comments by the board members I just had one minor correction which I already told Annie about leech Basin um the proper spelling it's not Le C it's l e a yeah yes uh I only had one uh it's um clarification on the second last line where it says feeling that the spaces marked on the plan by the storage area could not be considered spaces I view you should replace the word by the storage area the replace by with inside the storage area good I bu could have referred to the couple of spaces that were outside other than that um I'll entertain a motion to approve these minutes Mr chairman I move approval as amended do I have a second I'll second right um so I'll take a roll call vote uh Katherine Halper approve uh Warren chain Warren chain approve uh Charlene Greenhall approve uh Frank Shar approve Bob dubis approve and art Brew I approve all right so for next item on the agenda is the housing production plan presentation and I'm not quite sure Katie if you or Gloria were going to start this Gloria will kick us off okay Gloria go right ahead you're muted we can't hear you you must be muted thank you all sorry justed you're good now um one second okay so just to do a brief introduction um and our Consultants from JM Goldson are here and Laura SM will be doing a a pretty uh in-depth presentation about the housing production plan but just to give you guys some background um every five years um all the towns of Massachusetts go through the process of updating their housing production plan it's linked to requirements in 40b but we've had um uh our last housing production plan was done in 2018 uh we went through many of the same processes that we did for this one there was community outreach and engagement there was um a housing needs assessment performed goals and strategies um and ultimately in 2018 the planning board and the select board adopted the plan now that's a state requirement uh that both the planning board and the select board adopt the plan before it submitted to the executive office of Housing and livable communities for their approval um and background on this um we applied for a grant last June for a community planning Grant specifically to update the housing production plan we got the grant um in January we contracted with Jam Goldson and they uh jumped right in the same month we contracted we started with our kickoff meeting with the affordable housing trust we've done Community forums and other um Outreach we've um vetted the plan every step of the way through the affordable housing trust meetings they were always open for public comment and in fact I think that at every meeting we had people there who had um read the plan and who had made comments All of which were Incorporated um and basically this plan that we're working on now is a road map for moving forward with our housing initiatives um the planning board will have a role in some of those if you've gone through the plan you'll see at the end there's a table of strategies and responsible Pary in the planning board and planning division um as well as other town uh boards and people are responsible for certain of the strategies but really it's a town plan so it's something that everyone's going to get behind um and you know over the last five years over the course of the 2018 plan we've really built up our capacity um and this 2024 update hopefully will help us to prioritize and coordinate our efforts um so we can really start to move forward on our housing initiatives and with that I'm going to turn it over to Laura yep um Thanks Gloria can everybody hear me okay yes perfect okay yes so I'm Laura SM I'm the senior community planner at JM Goldson uh The Firm that has been helping the town with the housing production Plan update I do have a presentation to share with you all to walk you through some of the process and components of the plan and feel free to interrupt me at at any time but we do have a time for discussion at the end as well so the things that I'm going to be covering tonight um are just introducing you a little bit to the project and what a housing production plan is and some of the benefits of it talking briefly about some of the housing needs that we've discovered in in chatom I'm sure uh there probably won't be many surprises there for you and then covering the seven goals and 40 Samad strategies that um we've identified I won't go through the strategies one by one I'm only going to talk about them in kind of broad uh categories of what's included in the strategies but I am happy to get into any more detail that you may want to um when we get to the discussion portion of the of the night and then we do hope that you will um if you feel comfortable vote to adopt the plan uh so first of all I just want to say a big thank thank you to everyone who has been involved in this plan Jam goon was the lead but we also had some support from rkg Associates in terms of the housing needs assessment the town of chadam um housing staff the affordable housing trust fund board and the Community Housing Partnership we all great contributors to this plan and of course the public as well so the H A housing production plan is as Gloria mentioned it's a 5-year road map for housing in the town it is tied to chapter 40b requirements which is to have 10% of your overall yearround housing stock deed restricted that is sort of like the capital A affordable um to those at or below 80% of the area mediate income that's a lot of uh lingo for that but really it's goes beyond just that it's about providing both um deed restricted affordable housing as well as just any type of housing market rate work so-called Workforce housing um housing stock types and um all of the above so it does need your adoption and the selectboard adoption before you can U bring it to the executive office of Housing and livable communities for their approval and it does need to meet certain guidelines in order to be eligible for their approval and we followed those throughout the throughout the process um some benefits of a housing production plan are of course better understanding your local housing needs guiding helping to Guide local resources and decisions as you move forward um and identifying an action plan of kind of who's doing what when for that and help which really will help you enhance your coordination of of the capacity that you built up um over time and if you are able to make some incremental progress toward your deed restricted affordable housing on your subsidized housing inventory you would be eligible for uh some so-called safe harbor um which means that um someone who might be coming in with a a a 40b development that you aren't as keen on could be turned away if it if it was deemed to not be consistent with your housing production plan goals um there are two major components to the housing production plan some communities house both the housing needs assessment and the housing production plan the goals and strategies and so forth all together in one document chadam splits them into into two I think it makes for some some easier reading um and that's perfectly fine to do but when you vote for adoption you be sort of voting for both of those together as your housing production plan and the housing production plan does include the goals the strategies the action plan as well as a more of a summary and executive summary of of the key findings from the housing needs assessment the framework that we use to identify those goals and strategies are starting starting first with your needs trying to understand both from many different sources of data um qu quantitative data um from you know the census or real estate um databases and so forth as well as more qualitative sources of data from your community community surveys Community forums um and and public feedback both of which are are very important and that then helps us frame the with you the goals that um you wish to reach or strive for in the next five years and then we get more specific with those strategies and kind of put our heads together and figure out what are some methods and and creative ideas to help you get there so we started back in January and in throughout the winter and the spring of La of 2024 we were working on some of that quantitative and qualitative data so we were reaching out to the community um as well as working on the first drafts of the housing needs assessment and then well as we moved into the spring and early summer we started to Define an outline of the goals and the strategies that we the Housing Trust want thought made sense for the plan and then we started drafting some of those narratives into a more complete document and that's gone through several iterations of changes um and addition misss and we always carefully track all of the comments that we we receive and track how we we've Incorporated that into the final versions of the plan and so now we've worked on that further throughout the summer and we're ready to present to you all so it's very nice to be at this stage in terms of housing needs um we heard from just shy of I mean it's a little bit of a ballpark number we we talk about as Just sh 10% of your year round population but we also since we can't track individuals across different types of Engagement there could be some repeat individuals who have participated in more than say they did the community survey and they attended to the community Forum but overall we heard from 655 separate we call them participation points in the process and that's a that's a very strong showing from your community and we're really pleased to have you know about a 10% goal is what we really strive to do and we pretty much got there and I think actually if we added in all of the public comments that we heard as well we that would probably tip us over the edge um in terms of what the community said from this engagement about half of the survey respondents indicated that they couldn't afford to move to chatam today some of the more pressing challenges that were flagged were a lack of year- round rentals and a lack of affordable and attainable housing so um housing for those who wouldn't meet the qual qualifications for deed restricted unit but still can't make the leap into a market rate unit they're kind of stuck in that middle group and then we had some ideas for uh areas for further Housing Development uh especially where you already have um infrastructure with Wastewater infrastructure or where it's coming and there was some interest in allowing for more housing types in your in your zoning code regulating short-term rentals there's a lot of concern around around those Pro permitting accessory units which the state took care of sort of for you um and building affordable houses on the town sites and broadly favored we're having some more flexible Zoning for the housing types that you would like to see so helping to make the permitting a little bit easier for that maybe having some incentives targeting housing for employees um both seasonal Workforce as well as year round and increasing allowable uh densities of houses in in where it makes sense um for environmental conditions and allowing for some birate multif family and certain districts um in terms of overall housing needs this is a lot of data to take in um at once but I just wanted to call out some of the highlights from the data so to back the back up those sort of public um sentiments we do see that a a lot of the housing in chadam is single family and a lot of it is owner occupied so there isn't a lot of housing diversity um a large proportion over half of it is is for seasonal use and there is a large number of short-term rental units as well so um while there are the vast majority of your population is in a smaller household only about 28% of the of the houses available have that kind of smaller footprint which could be a more natural naturally affordable way to downsize or to um kind of initially get into a community and of course the high housing costs um 1.3 million this is you know a snapshot in time that always fluctuates but roughly 1.3 million for single family home median sales price and right around 22200 for a monthly two-bedroom um rent in kind of more of the region because it's actually really hard to get pin Point um market rate data for rentals in the in the Outer Cape region but um and also then you are you are striving to increase that number of your subsidized housing inventory so right now you are at 4.8% you're trying to get to 10% but as you can see on the left there's 36% of your populations that's considered cost burden so the need is is greater than than um what you have and what the state would would mandate um where you know it's over a third of your population is spending more than 30% of their income on their housing on their housing costs and that puts pressure um especially at the lower incomes on trying to make decisions about what you pay for in in any given month and can lead to housing insecurity and then for um some of these trickle down effects that we've seen in the community um there are there is an increase in year round households that we've seen in the last 10 10 years it could be that there's a little bit of a you know a CO effect and a hybrid work um effect happening there people like to retire and move to chadam as well it's beautiful Community um but we're also seeing this after feed of uh younger um students and younger um families with children and also uh this kind of prime working years age group of 35 to 44 has also decreased in the last 10 years so I know that that's a a concern for those in town who want to be able to provide H um attainable housing for for yearound families and employees um to to live here and work here okay so in in summary then we're we're looking at this housing availability and cost crisis and a mismatch between the housing that you have and the housing that you have a need for and it's really affecting all housing housing types um and income levels um at are below the 200% of area median income and let's see the area median income in chattam around like 80 or 90,000 so even at I mean you you pretty much need $300,000 as a as a household in order to afford a single family home in in chadam which is most of your housing stock so it really is putting it at a very very tough spot for a lot of people um and then the seasonal housing element um it it helps the tourism industry but it also you know takes takes adds to the compounds to this issue of of not enough your round housing especially your round rentals um being available for the demand and that does lead to this uh commuter effect of workers are unable to live near their jobs um so there's um very little overlap between those who work in chadam and those who live in chadam so what does that mean for goals and strategies um the first goal is is to try to address this housing type issue so trying to create new um conserve what you have or convert um existing year round housing stock into more of what we in the planner speak called The Missing middle housing types so it could be a on the left side of the screen an access dwelling unit all the way up to kind of that small to midsize walk up um apartment uh on the right so this is from Union Studio I I'm sure some of you have seen this graphic before and I'm also looking at a broad range of income levels as well so you want um to try to serve the most vulnerable and housing insecure individuals all the way through people who are are want to get in at a market rate but the market rates are are still not attainable the next goal is to try to Target specifically cadm year round residents and workers to try to get more opportunities that are affordable for them the third goal is to look at the seasonal Workforce in particular so that Peak that you have in the summer and and trying to support the employers who who H have seasonal Workforce and then trying to Strate rically locate your housing to minimize barriers to development so looking at I know you're already kind of have some study areas in west chadam and south chadam neighborhoods that you're looking at you also are lucky to have you know some Wastewater system in place and to be building that out so where you have infrastructure and where you don't have environmental um uh constraints and things you need to be careful about those are where you really want to Target the the growth and finally um or not finally because they actually have two more after this um you're looking to try to get the word out further Community commun conversations um further investment financial and staff and volunteers around this issue so that you can maintain the capacity that you've um built in the last several years and so one way you can increase that capacity is through through your Regional resources there are many in in Cape Cod um that you have been partnering with and that you can continue to part partner with so that you don't have to do it alone and you can take more of a a regional approach for these really Regional issues and um last but not least is trying to comply with 40b so making that incremental progress on these seed restricted units where you're creating or preserving ones that you already have and adding new um incrementally over time all right so pause there before I dive into the strategies are there any I covered a lot of information all at once are there any comments or questions so far not not seeing any yet okay all right so the the strategies are broken into three main types there's uh three main buckets if you will there's strategies related to planning policies or zoning and those are the ones that are going to tie a little more directly into the planning board's work and then there are those that are what we call local initiatives or programmatic strategies um so that could be anything from you know um helping someone create an accessory dwelling unit through some sort of grant program um or other ideas we'll get into a few of them in a minute and then the third bucket is all about capacity and coordination and education and it's not meant to be well it is a road map it's not meant to be a literal blueprint it's not CH chiseled you know and stone it's think of it more like a menu of choices and as we provided an action plan for you um there's a static one that's in the plan but there's also going to be uh you know one that's in Excel or Google sheet that you can update and and work with as you as you move along so we know that things are New Opportunities arise sometimes suddenly and and other things happen too so it's always a bit um shifting and we want to you to work go with what works um to make progress okay so a few highlights from the planning policies and Zoning strategies um there are a number of them related to zoning itself so trying to make the type of housing that you want to see allowable and also more streamlined so allowing for multif family housing in certain districts being a little more flexible about zoning around duplexes um or accessory dwelling units and so forth also having design guidelines and standards so there's a number of different ways you could do that anything from literal aesthetic standards about how it works uh or how it looks architecturally to standards related to um accessibility in Ada or standards related to or guidelines related to um Green Building design for example so there's a lot of um ones out there and it's really up to the community whether you want to go more of a guideline route or an actual standard route um and kind of which ones to adopt but we gave a lot of resources to you in the plan to start exploring different options and then also to um have uh an inventory of potential housing sites that you're interested in both it could be you know Town owns land that you're working on um deposing for housing or it could be um private um you know maybe it's vacant commercial office building or something that uh could be appealing to to an investor to try to turn into more of a mixed use um building um so one of the strategies that we talk about is creating what's called a pattern book it's something that's used a little bit more in other states than in in Massachusetts but we like to draw on examples that we think are are creative ideas no matter kind of where they come from if we think they would work well in a in a community and so the idea behind pattern books are to have um in this case a sort of uh architectural style sometimes it's outright um architectural designs that uh someone who is saying I want to build you know I know I want to do a duplex or something and I could see where it's allowed but um I don't I want to make sure it's going to get permitted permitted quickly and then it's something that I know the community supports and so pattern books can really show different types of housing in a detailed way of what the community community likes and wants to see and then you can kind of you know pick different designs um that work and it's just helps to streamline things and it serves as more of a visual guide to those interested in in creating housing um and the map on the right is your Wastewater map um the sewer phasing map so you know the the area in red is where you have existing sewer and then there's different colors for kind of where that's going to be expanded and that's just to highlight um you know some of where you really want to start with some of these um zoning changes especially under local initiatives and programs um we offer suggestions related to not just you know Zoning for aduse is one thing but actually having people understand what they are how to do it helping them through the process offering subsidies or um especially for affordable adus if someone were to create something that could potentially be deed restricted or for you know a yearr round um tenant let's say that could be a a helpful step to actually incentivize those to be created and then offering some tax incentives for yearound rentals Expediting permitting for affordable housing um going through if it if it's not uh you know a 40b and offering uh potentially offering some down payment assistance programs and then the idea of a lease to locals program so Providence um Province Town I should say um pretty near to you has the leas the locals program where they actually offer just a direct cash andent of for locals to um convert their property into a year- round rental um so there's we offer case studies and and things throughout the the plan so that you don't have to start from scratch you can kind of start from ideas from some of these other places whether very locally or from across the country and the third bucket of plans is capacity education and coordination so as you this could be more of a long-term strategy but as you look to trying to build out some of these programs especially it could mean that you might need to look at Staffing for your housing um to staff those housing efforts um also I love the example I think the community that started this idea was conquered Massachusetts uh in terms of this idea of a housing Roundtable so you're sitting down at least every quarter with you know the planning board and the select board and the zoning board and and the Housing Trust and the community preservation committee and representatives from all these groups come together to to talk about the housing production plan um housing needs in general kind of what actually what are we doing in this next year how can we well work together to support you know the top one or two priorities for the next year and so that you're constantly kind of in conversation with each other also of course your Regional Partnerships that might be um public private Partnerships it might be with nonprofits to train your land use boards to educate the public um and having a really clear and effective communication plan and Outreach plan around affordable housing as well um so this is a little example from the conquered housing Roundtable and also an example from the citizens housing and Planning Association who's one of these housing groups that is can can come out and for technical assistance no cost of the town you know lead a presentation on kind of mythbusting or or other type of housing topics that might be of interest to the community and um I did mention the action plan already so that lives kind of in a static form of the plan but it also um is going to live in an Excel document and there are kind of two lenses two different tables that we look at it through one is where we're looking at the strategies and kind of which goals that they support because some strateg support more than one of your goals and we want to make sure that every strategy in there supports at least one goal but that could be a way to look at where you're going to get some big bang for your buck if it's supporting multiple goals as well as of course time frame and responsible entities so we think we got it um as close to right as we can for this moment but given that things change we want to make sure that it's in a format where you can also update it um if need be and also be transparent to the public you know it's something that you could embed in in your website and if people were curious about progress in any given um topic or strategy it's also a way to share information okay so that that's all I really have for tonight other than um I can stop sharing this and open it up for discussion and questions um or dive into any level of detail you would like um yeah let me just begin um I think uh Kitty the 2018 plan you mentioned uh that there are some strategies that were undertaken over the past five years could you just refresh to board members on what some of those were just so they get an idea that that there has been some action in the past sure um to name a few one was the um Adu bylaw that the planning board worked on um hiring a housing coordinator which we've done um by hiring glor area um we also uh conducted our town-owned property inventory which was presented to the select Port uh a few years ago um to look at what opportunities there may be for town-owned property for um housing and another one was um where we ended up with doing the rfps for private land for development um so those were all goals or strategies within the um 2018 housing production plan that just some examples that um you know that acted upon okay thank you um that helped me because I just got on the board back in 2018 and I don't think that I realized that all of those ideas had developed out of the housing plan from uh from when that was proposed back in 2018 um I'll open up to the other board members um uh Katherine do you have any comments or questions I don't have too many oops I don't have too many comments um I would like to say first of all thank you I think the um the study was done uh with Excellence um and the production plan is is very clear uh and I think it's well done first I wanted to say that um I think as a planning board uh we need to look at the as you've mentioned the areas that specifically are actionable by the planning board we've already been considering some of those but I would say you know our next step is to zero in uh on what initiatives we can take Visa V zoning changes and I'm you know as we've discussed already as a board um if we can add some of those to our agenda to try to bring before annual town meeting 2025 I would support doing that um one a couple points you mentioned you mentioned an inventory of sites around town that would be workable uh as particular areas where housing density could be increased or multif family homes could be introduced I think that's also something the planning board has been looking at we're looking at for example around the West chadam Neighborhood Center what we call sort of transition zones or buffer zones uh on the East uh I think it might work well if we look around the town as a whole and see if there are other areas specific areas that lend themselves uh better to um uh multif family housing development or development of a diversity of housing options that we could uh recommend some change in the zoning that would allow that um those are a couple of thoughts that come to mind I also just wanted to comment on the pattern book idea um maybe not a lot of us remember it but even long before I joined the planning board the idea of a chatam pattern book was something that's been considered in chadam it never got implemented um it's something I think might be worthwhile considering again we have a lot to work with already because we've got um the design guidelines of hbdc that planning board has also adopted as our design guidelines we have the information on form-based code that we implemented in West chadam so we've so so I think we've got a lot to work with that we could put together a pattern book that might make these increased um densities in different housing forms such as multif family housing more acceptable to the community so those are just a few comments from my side uh thank you U Warren any comments of course okay good um I'd like to add my thanks to all of those those who participated in pulling these documents together um tremendous amount of useful information that can serve any number of um valuable efforts as we go forward um my comments are really not meant to be um commenting or criticizing what's actually there but it does seem to me that the plan or plans could really benefit uh from a bit of a look backward as to to what has changed in those plans from the previous five years ago um personally I would expect most of the issues are pretty much the same they may have taken on a slight new Nuance um but uh along with the what has changed from the previous plan a bit of a um a pat on the back uh Katie have um all the items that you mentioned that have been done I think these plans would be more readily received by the town if we could um Pat you on the back a little bit and include in these plans what we have done versus the last plan as preamble to now this is the next five years and what we are going to work on um the um I I was taken um by the fact that there's a what I'll call A lack of a quidd pro quo uh discussion about U the rezoning of virtually all of Route 28 uh West out of town to residential uh at the in exchange for creating uh for neighborhood centers in town uh the idea being it's going to be going from commercial to residential most of the space but the town uh neighborhood centers would have higher density and therefore create the opportunities for affordable housing uh multif family housing and so on um and I think that um it would be helpful again in selling a new plan if we could put in context that we've already taken what I think is a major step towards um increasing or what the town is already okayed by The Creation in principle of the neighborhood centers uh for increasing the density type um affordability of housing that would be developed in those centers um the form Katherine already mentioned the form based zoning I think that's a major um a major accomplishment really uh in terms of what has happened since I've been a member of the board um I think it has utility beyond the neor neighborhood centers but we've been focusing on it pretty much um with a laser focus on the neighborhood centers focusing on not what you can't do which is what most zoning does but what we want it to look like um and I think a great deal of um effort has gone into drafting or the drafts we have for West chadam Neighborhood Center zoning which are patterned 100% really after the concepts of form based zoning and I think that's a major accomplishment but I also think it's one that is well worth uh highlighting because as soon as you start talking about greater density different types of Housing and everything else the n-c reaction of most Town people that I speak with is no and if you see what it's going to look like um that would be a a big plus so I would suggest maybe highlighting that as an accomplishment as well as an element going forward um the um last comment I'd have is that um we have been focusing on only really one of um the theoretical four neighborhood um centers which have been identified in that quid proquo back when um but I think that there um it would be really interesting uh to me as a board member but also to the town as to some sort of a uh a swag at assuming that we had zoning as being conceived for the West chadam neighborhood center and extrapolated over four neighborhood centers what might be the impact on the housing stock uh in a full build out buildout analysis that might go out 50 years um it might be a modest number of in rental housing units it might be a reasonable accomplishment or getting a significant chunk of what is needed and if it is put forward in the appropriate way with form based zoning and we've already agreed to create the neighborhood centers we've already taken care of uh rezoning the rest of Route 28 as residential etc etc such that whatever the buildout analysis might be for all four of those centers it would be very nice to have maybe not as a fiveyear objective but as a a 50-year objective showing what path we have chosen to go down and of course most of that benefit would only be as things were redeveloped since there's not that much open space but still the concept I think would be valuable to help uh sell the document to to the public um and I'm focusing on selling it to the public because as soon as we talk about zoning changes so far my experience on the planning board is if it's a zoning change means the answer is no um and that's that can't be the answer and it shouldn't be the answer uh based on all of the input that we have been working on for the West chadam Neighborhood Center um but if the answer to the general public is going to be no we um could utilize these documents as a way to um immediately but over time be able to U sell it as a a um a marketing document not just a legal requirement of 40b so those would be my comments uh thank you waren uh Charlene any comments um certainly like to Echo what the my the previous speakers have said um I like the idea of a pattern book um we all know we cannot Zone Statics but certainly giving an idea of what what people might be amenable to um I know in in my career it was always well what does the town want and it's like well I I don't know um but I think the idea of a pattern book is good I don't want to see cookie cutter that everything looks the same however so um you know I think the pattern book is is very good um I think the information provided in in the two documents was excellent and I was very pleased with it um and just one thing the the ad Adu bylaw which we have the state has taken care of um you know making sure that it it is now allowable by right we are going to need to tackle that for the Springtown meeting ourselves to to update that for for the bylaw and um uh that's one of those okay even if the town says no it's still State override so you know it's better if we are complying with what the state wants or is requiring and um you know if we want to keep it as a site plan review think about why we are doing at a site plan review and what it is we're reviewing specifically so um but just echoing what you all said thank you uh Frank any comments um yeah I'd like to uh Echo the comments of the previous speakers particularly Warren who stole my but that's fun because he said it a lot better than I ever would have said it but you know it's we we have major initiative on our neighborhood centers and it's there really is only passing reference to that in here and it is um if if that's successful I mean it could actually achieve most of the objectives that that we want um so I I I love the idea of of talking about it more and kind of projecting how that might affect our affordable housing housing stock if if that's rolled out that that to the other there's going to be five so total um I also want to say that it's a fabulous job I mean it's it's I I was very impressed by what's here I know you put a lot of work into it um one thing that does impress me though is that it's it's an enormous amount of work there's a lot of things that have to be done so uh we have limited resources I know there's a proposal to increase Staffing I don't know whether that's going to happen or not but I suspect that uh we need to prioritize uh because we have I don't know 44 strategies and and there's so much to do and a lot of it each one of those is a major um task so um I understand that there's no prioritization in here and in fact it's called out so we have not prioritized ier put it in any order um so that means that it's going to be left to us for example anything to do with planning uh we're we're probably going to have to prioritize ourselves as to what we're going to take on first there there's about a third of those strategies are involvement with the planning board so at least the focus doesn't have to be on 100% of the items but absolutely there's uh absolutely there's a a more narrow list for us to actually flush through um I I was happy to hear that this is not set in stone um that u in a sense they're directional uh you know the idea of doing multif family in all the residential zones I can predict what would happen at town meeting on that one um but you know it's fine to have that as kind of an aspirational order Direction I mean the end result might be that we have an overlay that says well where do we want you know to allow multif family or something other than just going and saying we're going to allow in all the res residential districts that that's the kind of thing I think which could set people off so um there's there's some word smithing that I suggest you might want to consider where in in a lot of the strategies it says that we'll look at something or we'll consider something or we'll review do something or we'll set up a study group but on a lot of the zoning things it says this will happen and uh you know so and that's going to be controversial um so we might want to tone the language down a bit so instead of saying we're going to make all residential districts multif family we might say consider where we can do that in town you know consistent with whatever you want to be consistent with um so yeah and I just want to interject there so we're really only proposing to allow for multifamily in residential districts that already have access to sewer um yeah and and also in the you know the general residence or general business district I should say so it's not um not necessarily absolutely everywhere because we know that there's environmental restrictions and things like that yeah but of course the sewer is going to expand over time but yeah I understand um so um I had an awful lot of comments I mean but you know we just got the plan two days ago um and I don't think it's worthwhile me trying to you know go through it uh and and just with the understanding that this is directional and then of course all of these things for planning going to have to come to planning we're going to call it hearings and going to get input from a lot of people and it's going to go to the board of Selectmen and we have to think about the politics of getting something through with that understanding I'm I'm happy with with yeah that's my understanding too Frank of how we're supposed to be approaching this this is a menu of items and strategies we we as a board would take a look at some of our components and see which ones we think we should prioritize and and move on and others will be doing that in theirs the the tables in the back I thought were very helpful in identifying that because when I was first reading the needs assessment and I I said wow this is a lot of strategies and then when I saw there there was a breakdown on that and that sort of helped give me the relief that we can tackle this um with each of the separate uh groups that are involved that really need to be involved with this not just one group yeah that's it um Bob uh you have any thought any comments I don't think there's too many comments that I can make that people have not already said other than uh thank you Gloria for all your work and we appreciate it but I think everybody's pretty much hashed over a lot of it thank you right one of the things that uh we have spoken to in the past on this one we were actually developing the West chatam neighborhood center and our thought process with perhaps some of the other neighborhood centers is uh we're defining these with specific boundaries but we we always said that there was an opportunity to set up some transition zones um around these neighborhood centers and those could be good opportunities for um some of the strategies that that you had mentioned in your report um whether they're uh some degree of uh of multif family um a change of density or transition in density uh different housing types I think that uh that might be an excellent one for us to tackle um perhaps soon after we we uh flush uh and push through the West Cham Neighborhood Center hopefully at the Maytown meeting so that was one of the things that I recall that we were we were actually uh suggesting we do have in the neighborhood center um a multi family uh component in it and that was not there when we first started out so I think that there could be some um significant pieces of it to support the commercial development I I think in the build down analysis that's one of the things that we're looking at and isn't that right Katy is what what could that be as an idea of how much of the neighborhood centers could uh support housing uh it's all about you know whether it could or uh again from a financial standpoint I mean that's a component that's sort of tough for us to actually identify you can always apply a number to an area but it doesn't mean that it's uh can be logically uh put forward from a financial perspective out there in the in in the development world uh in either case um I think that uh this is an excellent um plan that was put together and what I'd like to do is um uh propose that we adopt the housing production plan and I'll like to hear a motion on that M Mr yeah I just Mr chairman I I didn't know if you wanted to see if there's any public comment oh I apologize for that um so uh if there's any public comments I would like to entertain it at this time I don't see anybody online no Mr chairman yeah oh please thank you Mr chair um I just wanted to um Echo something that Frank brought out about the idea and I think art you also touched on it and the board has thought about this before um um chadam as the needs assessment has shown there was no surprises in the needs assessment for me I've lived in chadam a long time um but chadam is basically a single family home community and has been and the whole how to put it the whole mindset of the comprehensive plan is maintaining that type of uh livability in our community so I just think that uh as we go forward now we're looking at a new situation where the housing um crunch is much more critical than it was 10 years ago 20 years ago 30 years ago when the comprehensive plan was being put together um but nevertheless I do I would anticipate that uh to bring this before the town to get the town's agreement because it will have to be any zoning changes will have to receive 2third voted annual town meeting we might rather than changing broad areas to multif family housing we might want to look at what what we've been suggesting that we look at particular areas of town that lend themselves well these transition zones around the neighborhood centers would be a good place to start there might be other areas that would lend themselves well to some increased density in the housing um but I think we need to think it through carefully um and look at each look at the possibilities carefully just because uh and also some sort of visuals or pattern book will be helpful because chadam has traditionally been a single family home community and now we want to transition to Greater acceptance of multif family structures so that's all yeah uh Warren another comment yeah I had one other comment um as I recall the previous uh plans made reference to a density of like four per unit as or four per acre um as what had been supported by uh the town's infrastructure for water sewer Etc um the current draft plans also make reference in several places to this four units uh per acre um I I would suggest that that not be put down as something which is immutable in the last plan and the current plan because it will be uh uh put back in in our face at a town meeting at some point saying the town is now twice approved a density of no more than four units per uh acre um we are in the midst of finishing our buildout analysis but it's always our intent I believe certainly my intent to come up with the right density for these neighborhood centers which is likely to be two or three times that um it's not going to create lots of housing but I think it would be unfortunate to have um the renewed or the new um long-term plans for housing uh again still make reference to this four units per acre um having been approved once this is done twice then it will be thrown up as saying we've already said that's it four per acre um and so I'm not sure exactly what that means in terms of drafting changes but I I don't want that to be thrown back in the face of uh the select board or the planning board or the planning department uh thank you um Charlene really good point um if the board is amendable um I would move that we approve the adoption of both the housing production plan and the housing needs assessment um um but also uh cognizant of that there may be some final edits based on conversation that we've had today and the board of selectman will be having tomorrow um in their review and is there a second a second Warren chain okay uh thank you I'll take a roll call vote uh Katherine yes I approve Warren chain approve Charlene yes Frank Frank shear I approve uh Bob dubis Bob dubis approve and art brew and I approve thank you appreciate all the help and uh contributions that you made on this um I've failed to mention at the beginning of the meeting I'll do that now does um any board member have to recuse himself from any of the other actions on the on the agenda I believe I have to uh um recuse myself on the next item okay okay so then we'll the next item on the agenda is going to be the modification of site plan approval acceptance of an as Bill plan certificate of compliance for 225 Middle Road next grid uh is there um someone to come up and speak yes and I think Katie this is a slight it's not really exactly as written here we're going to be discussing is that correct it it's really more whether or not the board is willing to accept the accept the asilt um okay there's a couple of changes that did not um happen with the original approval one was the masonry wall around uh the battery storage area um and then the other um was the line spacing um and I'll let you speak if there's anything sure uh good evening members of the board for the record my name is Nathan Collins director of engineering with NEX grid um as noted we're here tonight seeking um approval of two minor modifications to the original site plan that was approved um the first one being the masonry wall and fence around the battery energy storage system um since this plan was originally approved back in 2020 um we've learned now that um walls or fences around these Battery Systems impact um emergency events for fire safety um as well as general long-term maintenance um back in March of 2023 we walked the site with Chief Tano uh went over the emergency process um and he concurred with our assessment that the wall and the Defence weren't necessary I think originally the intent was it was going to be built to block noise to nearby residents um to our knowledge since that system's been operable for I believe a little over a year now in terms of generation of power uh there hasn't been complaints as it relates to noise um so again that for for those reasons that's why we're requesting that minor modification uh the other plan deviation is the original site plan showed actual striped parking spots on the paved access Drive um because that site is secure and only accessible by um members who have the lock to the gate um and that paved area the parking is is clearly kind of defined and there's really not going to be more than two vehicles there at any given time um we just don't feel the actual striping is is necessary for those two spots um so those are the two deviations that we requested from the original site plan approval okay um and we did receive information from the fire chief that um during a site visit uh uh during in construction they confirm that the wall um as initially proposed would have created a potential obstacle to their operations so they do uh indicate that removal of it is okay with them um okay if there is the you know there's a couple of things that sort of jumped out I but I think if we go through some of the board members and ask them if they have any other um uh comments associated with this as built because I think that's what we're only looking at for tonight so um uh Katherine if you'd like to start um I think I'm all right I I did just want to confirm just what you said after reviewing all the documents that basically you're looking for approval of two changes in the as built um from the plan that was approved and one is the uh omission of the concrete around the batteries and the other is the omission of the striping on the parking spaces and you also want your bond your performance spond released is that correct or is that changed no meeting that's a future meeting that would be a future meeting we would like to get that done at the next meeting but we wanted to make sure that the board was willing to accept the asilt um we need to make sure that there's a decommissioning bond that we need to make sure is in place right that's different the performance bond right and so our intent would be to hopefully release or provide a certificate of compliance for the statement of conditions um once that that decommissioning bond is in place the board could then vote um to release the statement of conditions as well as the performance bond right at that time um our Hope was to do that at the October meeting okay understood okay great just wanted to be clear on what our action is um I think other than that I do not have any questions yeah uh Warren uh do you have any questions or comments um I think I better not have any questions thank you okay um Charlene I have nothing nothing uh Frank Sher no nothing um I have just a few um I think there was a component that was proposed on the original site plan which was let me pull this out uh there's a rainard in planting plan and I didn't see very much of anything on uh developed on it right now so that's something I think that should be attended to th those were all replanted sir earlier this month uh we provided photo documentation to um I'm not talking about the arbor VES in the front that no UND understood the the plantings in the detention Basin that's correct correct those were all replanted back in uh early September and we provided photo documentation so we do have um photo documentation of the plantings uh there was a schedule with it for additional planting I don't know if that had been done or not a schedule for it was a schedule that was also provided to me or a purchase order of some sort but I don't think they were installed yet so have they been installed at this time all the all the plantings have been installed in that detention pond in accordance with the approved plans those were the photos that we provided showing those okay I I'd like to go out and take a look at that again because when I was out there it didn't seem like there were any plantings around the Basin so and I I think that's an important element of what we had asked for on the original plan and I they're not they're not looking for a waiver for that item so I'd like to see it there um so I I guess that would be something that the board members could take a look at between now and the next month when we uh receive further documentation on this and the the other thing is is there were the arities that were done on the east side and the West Side along Middle Road um it's it's not a big deal but I think it would be good if you have your engineer just Cloud the area and identify how many of those were actually planted I think it supports that you did do the work because it was uh noted on the the approved plan that those were to be planted and you did plant those so I I think take credit for it is what I'm saying I don't want somebody to come back and say well you didn't you didn't actually do this and I think you did um as far as the missionary wall and the striping I don't have any problem with um re uh eliminating those two uh I was out there and um they they appear to be um uh no issues associated with that especially with the two parking spaces they're they're defined by the edge of Pavements so um I guess is there do we need to vote to accept or an as spill or ask for an AS but we really need to do that correct Katie um would an amendment would a motion to accept the amended as asil suffice or do you or do you want thank you pych plan or do you want would you prefer to see an updated plan showing how many arbores there are frankly I'm fine with this as an amended site plan and as the asilt myself but if you would prefer that there be more information on it that I'm good with that too I'm okay with approving it uh provided they add those two components that's all so it wouldn't you you would not accept this as the as built though because they need to change it uh yes they're they're going to be here again next month the bond issue so I I'll give them the the 30 days to uh just take care of this and we can do it all at once so I would then um if it's appropriate move that we accept the amended site plan yep okay and do I hear a second I'll second okay uh I'll take a roll call vote uh Katherine Halper yes I approve thank you uh Warren chain Warren chain approve uh Charlene greenhous I approve Frank Shear I approve andard sprew I approve thank you thank you thank you okay uh I guess Bob can come back next item on the agenda is a recommendation to the zoning board for zeroc crosswind Farm Road this is a uh just for everybody's information this is for our input to the zoning board of appeals for a driveway and that's be constructed in the conserv district it is uh the only component that we're involved with in this particular recommendation so uh if there's any comments associated with this like the first is there an applicant who can actually speak to this first and if you could introduce yourself to the board hi I'm Joe jalo I'm one of the property owners and uh I will do my best to answer questions our engineer couldn't be here so my my understanding was that the um because we would have preferred a a permeable driveway and we were told that the angle of the driveway made that impossible and that we had to go with at least partially impermeable and then we came back with a compromise of and gravel at the top where the cars would be parked and then between minutes ashal for the rest well that's a new one on me um Katherine can you start off with any comments or questions yes um I I'll ask my usual question when we have to do these approvals it's always a little bit difficult to see what is there now our purview pertains to the driveway and the driveway only uh in the conservation dist district and so can you show us maybe if there's a laser pointer what is there now and what do you propose to add what is the square footage of what's being added and what is permeable and what is impermeable just so we have a very clear picture of of what's there now and what will be added and what's permeable and impermeable sure so uh right now the the lot is just yard it's just grass so um the bit on the uh Conservation Area is right here this is the driveway as I understand coming down here and this dash line and I think everything I think this dotted line is the uh Conservation Area boundary so just that very end bit is the is asphalt in the conservation area and then this would all be asphalt up to here and then I believe this dotted line in this area here would be gravel where the proposed car parking so this is all proposed yeah yes there's there's no driveway existing now just vacant so this is all proposed with an asphalt on the on the is it the Eastern end uh uh Southeast yeah yeah okay yeah the I think the square footage on the plan said 270 square foot within the conserv district okay great um the only other comments I have is we've gotten uh which is a little unusual we've gotten a a few letters just before the meeting um so I no no we got a couple about this um and so I haven't really been able to review them carefully I believe the letters refer more to the whole project we have to be somewhat careful because the planning board's purview is just about the driveway nevertheless I think we need to look at what they're saying because they're basically objecting to the project um one is from the state archaeologist saying that it's an archaeological sensitive site and that before any um building is done there that it has to be evaluated um and then there's another from that is from brona Simon State archaeologist um State historic preservation officer executive director Massachusetts historical commission and the other is from Carolyn Whittle who is an AB butter yes um who also has some concerns about the project so because we got these so late we have to determine how much of our purview is affected by these objections I I I think that uh I didn't see much of anything about this driveway access which is the limits of what we have to say there's there's plenty in those those two pieces of Correspondence I would say we would put them in our file but there there isn't anything that was identified and focused on this Conservancy District 30 270 Square fet okay um which is that's just the way the B law is set up that's our limit of our review and recommendation absolutely other other boards would need to deal with the components of these letters but we will we'll put them in our files though okay I'd be happy to address them if you want to but but they these things did come up at the Conservation Commission and and yeah I'll leave it at that okay thank you if I could just make a comment sometimes we could consider if the chair um feels that way that we could reference in our recommendation to the zoning board of appeals we could just reference that there are concerns that have been brought up about the project but we sometimes do that even it's not our purview to consider those concerns but we sometimes will mention that in the context of our recommendation letter understood okay understood um Warren do you have any comments or questions um with respect to the initial part of the driveway which is in the conservation area um much of that is U exactly the same place as the notes on the site plan would show as um what's it referred to as um a an historical pathway uh blah blah blah that is made reference to in the document that we just received what is it called um um vehicle tracks historical not visible um but when I went out and walked the site um those vehicle tracks are exactly where the driveway is going to be put MH so um we're being asked to sign off on putting a uh an impermeable driveway right on top of what is exactly on this site plan that we already have of an historical well our recommendation could be something different though yeah I'm just saying I wanted to highlight y why I'm bringing that up one of my questions was going to be do we know anything about that historical track well we know something because a letter has just been handed to us this evening which said is that it it's it's not a tiny little nothingness it's could be a big deal um I did have one other question and that is on um the very north um northeast corner of where the house is laid out just off of that uh corner there's about a 1 by 2 foot concrete pad Something cover I mean I I've never seen something like that and I was wondering whether that uh what it was so I can I can kind of address both of those the um the historic track that goes through as I understand it was the old uh access route to the graveyard that's up on the hill behind uh behind Crossman Farm Road adjacent to uh a Leonard way as long as my family's own the property since the 7s it's basically looked as it has now there is one area where you can kind of see where the path used to be uh but if you go back and look at the deed that my family has from the 70s it says that any right of way was relinquished with the selling of the lot so uh as far as I know there's no right of way associated with it but um as far as the other block now I I've I've seen it before I have no idea what it is um as far as I understand there was no structure on that lot previously so um if it was a monument as been proposed or something else I I really don't know you know I I raised the question of what is it only because to the extent that I don't know utilities were Buri there or that went across the driveway that we're talking about or other times because I have no idea what it is I've never seen anything quite like it so you've seen it with it looks older than yeah like a current um anything related to Utilities in my opinion but I'm not sure I'll set uh sure do you have any comment questions no just you know speaking to the portion of the driveway that is under our purview um I certainly agree with the the proposed condition that staff has um suggested that the driveway um shall be constructed of permeable material um I I'm not comfortable with that right being impermeable at all um thank you uh Frank uh comments or questions no uh Bob DUIs when I have come hit on something that I can uh know a little bit about okay good first of all I see you have a trench drain there which I'm not I'm not too in favor of trench drains right uh because they get clogged and nobody takes care of them right so if you would to put something there you could put a catch B from framing greaton I know Mr uh my buddy over there looking at me is not like that but anyway they do make they do make um perious asphalt yeah okay and so you could put that perious asphalt there and eliminate the trench drain and have the stone that's underneath the asphalt run into a basin so you wouldn't see anything and you'd be able to plow it right uh without any any danger to uh um screwing up the trench tring so that would be my recommendation is to put pervious asphalt there on a better stone with some piping in there to go to the catch Bas in your proposing okay um thank you um I'll just um add one comment I I don't see any reason why some perious surface materials can't be uh used here in this location again it's just a section it's um I think it's in a neighborhood of 30 by 12 so it's um I've seen it uh on much steeper slopes associated with this so I don't see that as being an issue um Katherine did you say you had one other comment do you question I do um I just took a moment to review these letters a little bit more carefully although I still haven't reviewed them carefully and the one from brona Simon the state archaeologist I just want to read the last paragraph that I do think affects our specific purview um she says this parcel is archaeologically sensitive the Massachusetts historical commission recommends that an intensive locational archaeological survey be conducted prior to any ground disturbing disturbing activities in order that in order to identify and potentially avoid impacting any significant ancient Native American archaeological sites so they do say any ground disturbing activities so that would include or could include the construction of the driveway yeah and and I've only made been aware of this since this morning myself um we the the concerns about the historical significance of the lot was brought up previously and I had uh reached out to the historical commission and the chatam historical society and a bunch of other people and we had been basically waiting to hear back from the state to uh hear their recommendations on how to proceed so i' I've only just heard them this morning but I will say that uh my family has also owned the two lots adjacent to this lot and back when they built the existing house where I live now um we did have the uh a team from the Natural History Museum come out and do a dig and they they did find Shell mittens and things of that nature and uh my family is completely Cooperative with that so I I'm am going to look into this and see what we can do yeah so I'm assuming a copy of this letter because it was sent to the conservation um division head of our town this will become part of the Conservation Commission right uh review and perview and they won't let anything happen until this has been addressed but I agree that it affects our recommendations yeah okay um it's a public comment War it here I'm it's I'm not familiar with this process no so it's up to the chair if you'd like to allow public comment um well this is such a narrow component in here I think um well we can start with the motion that with the the staff has identified in here the driveway shall be constructed of peral material and shall be constructed in a manner which permits the unobstructed flow of water there was a couple other components and could I hear some additions to this that I heard during Catherine I would add that that we adopt the condition that's proposed by the state archaeologist and say pending um the archaeological survey that that if we send a positive recommendation that we say pending the archaeological survey by uh the state who whoever does it the massachusett historical commission to determine um somehow reference that the arch that that it's been recommended that a locational archaeological survey be conducted prior to any ground disturbing activities and I would propose that we cite that in our recommendation that if we recommend if we send a positive recommendation to zba that we have our standard condition that it's of permeable U material but that it's pending the completion of the locational archaeological survey I would so move that okay any other items to add to that do I hear a second Frank Shar second it okay then um like to uh do a roll call vote on this um excuse me excuse me one second yes would you rephrase exactly what we're going to vote on we're going to we're going to vote on we're going to vote on the driveway shall be constructed of permanent material and shall be constructed in a manner which permits the unobstructed flow of water we haven't identified some of your pieces yet and the last um letter uh last paragraph in the letter uh pending the um that an intensive archaeological survey be conducted prior to any ground dis disturbance activities in order to identify any potential potentially avoided avoid impacts any significant ancient Native American archaeological sites okay that's the addition if you would like to add a piece uh no I I think we're just I just want to make sure you had all the the points on there okay so that that would be the motion that we're going to be voting on okay and and after that we're going to have a a positive vote this is for a positive vote this this motion this will also include the positive that's correct you didn't say that with that's why I'm trying to make that point Thank you for clarifying that no I just my intention that that was my intention it's a positive vote with positive recommendation with conditions with two conditions two conditions that's that's what I needed all right thank you with that positive recommendation let's start a roll call vote kathern helper yes I approve uh Warren chain Warren chain approve uh Charlene Greenhall uh yes uh Frank Shear approve Bob dubis Bob dubis approves and art sprw I approve thank you all right I'll get this [Laughter] down Mr chairman I think you're doing a great job yeah great job first day on the job all right uh next item on the agenda is informal discussion on zero Evergreen Lane um perhaps uh this something do we have an EP oh I think it's uh da CL are Mr chair Mr chairman I need to say that I have worked for people on this area okay I have no no uh monetary value and anything there but I have worked in the area uh for 20 years on and off well this is an informal discussion so we're not taking any vote tonight on anything I just want you to know that I have been in the area and I don't think anything's been done in this area for a long time so there hasn't been any I'm the last one to work there [Laughter] okay all right um perhaps uh I I've read a lot of the documents so far David and it's going to be helpful for you to walk the board members through as best you can on this because this is not a clean um uh process that was done as part of the approval on the subdivision um Dave Clark uh Clark engineering um I was contacted by the owners to help them out with this uh over the last several months uh my office been been contacted by some prospective buyers of the property and I warned them all that there's still an outstanding Covenant on the property which prompted the owners to contact me um looking at the record there are two approved uh plan and profiles for this road um I'm not sure which one is the operative document uh um the one that's on the screen uh shows uh a road road improvements I think widening it to I think 16 or 18 ft I can't remember my my understanding of this is this was an an initial document if you take a look at over at the title block there on the revisions you'll see that there's just a single revision on the bottom if you take a look at the next plan you'll see that this has been um a modified plan of of the same area and you'll see that there's more revisions so there the first plan might have been what they started with but this is where I believe that they ended up with is yeah nocs on it the the uh the uh recorded documents of the registry Deeds don't refer to a plan uh so we don't know what we're working with right um uh the plan that's up on the screen um the uh from what I've been told from the owners is is that uh the abutters don't want it m although it's been approved by the planning board um they don't want the road opened up into a highway MH um they like it the way it is unfort so um so what is it that you on behalf of the uh property owners are looking for direction what's the planning board want well that's the way it's going to work you have to come before us and bring what you're looking to do if you want to modify a plan well we don't know which one we're modifying oh okay um this one can't be done um because the road flare is in front the north well it looks North the easterly um rounding into the subdivision is in front of an AB Butter's property um which is not part of the subdivision um state of Massachusetts Highway Department is going to require consent of that owner in order to build this road which is unlikely because they don't want the road yeah um and in looking at the documents what what's unfortunate is um uh when it went through the permitting process um nobody took in into account what Mass highway is going to want and nobody took in into account the wellness protection act so this is subject to jurisdiction of the Conservation Commission correct this road has not been designed in accordance with the wetlands protection act this road has not been designed in accordance with mass doot right uh Master OT is going to want a significantly wider entrance y they're going to want uh close to 80 ft at the end of the roundings and they're going to want 24 feet of pavement at the property line yeah um that seems kind of excessive for one house right I I think on the original plan uh they showed a 20 foot wide um access point there at the property line the revised plan that is there now shown 16 feet I think there there was um some revisions that occurred and this was the plan that actually that was bought into and if you see that this extends all much further up um and into the site from the from the previous plan even though the previous plan had a wider opening at the throat there that one was a much shorter section of what was actually going to be uh done um the interesting thing about this says this was approved I mean if they if they if the property owners or Butters want to hold the deed restriction that means they want to hold to have this plan built and that's not what what I'm hear reading about in the comments from some of the abutters the butters do not want this to be built I I think what I would suggest for you to do is is um speak to the prop uh the property owner who wants to take initiative of either passing this property or or building on it and come up with uh a suggested uh modification that would deal with some of what the butters are looking for and Mast out which wasn't done previously I I agree with you the mot piece is going to be a big component and it may not be anything that's going to be acceptable to the butters um one of the things I was considering is not to do anything with the entrance um when the town put the sewer in it got widened um and so when that was all repaired you know um it got widened significantly um I think it's 16 ft now across um so um well the other piece that wasn't done on this is there and there was a lot of back and forth is is uh with even a certification from the highway superintendent and Jeff Kobe to uh sign off on the infiltration and catch Basin system that was there and nothing was built nothing was built it's just a Swale now yeah yeah it seems to be working fine because there's no even with all the rain we've had and those deles we had uh earlier this year there's no sign of a wash out anywhere yeah actually it actually goes onto that particular lot that lot 1B is it where it all discharges to Y and then that's the one that's for sale mhm yeah um did the drainage calculation certificate ever get recorded yes it got recorded in 2009 if you see if you see the date on it well I don't even see a certificant date on this uh if you see the date that it actually was approved by the uh planning board in that it was several years later it took me a while I see that but I don't see I don't see page on it registry of deeds I think that that was just a sign off by the planning board because they wanted a clarification that the catch Basin system was going to be acceptable to the to the town chadam so if I might if I think I get what you would like to see that the road not have to be constructed at all for the for the construction of the the new home I'm not asking for that um I I haven't done I I I haven't even been hired by the okay by the by the owners yet um but I was I did do some research for a prospective buyer um and and what alerted me was more so than mot is uh the Wetland protection act requirements for drainage that is about a third of what's needed uh according to the uh storm water regulations uh um it's it it's probably fine because the the the storm water regulations are Ultra Ultra conservative uh as far as infiltration right um but to be strict compliance with that you're looking at a drainage area that's that's probably going to be three times as high or twice as deep and um it is is that based on the plan there with a 16t widening all the way up yeah and and and even more there's a lot of uh there's two driveways that contribute to that contribute to it yes so uh it it's it's quite an undertaking to to redesign this to conform with mass do and and uh the wetlands protection act all right uh Katherine first and then Bob forgive forgive me for asking this but how do you propose to do it in in such a way that we don't do what Mass do requires I mean it seems to me I mean it seems to me you know I'm sorry but we're going to have to do they're going to have to do what Mass do requires unless tell me how how that can be done otherwise when when the when the sewer went in the road was reconstructed partially and it's it's it's wider than the what's shown on this plan as the existing pay so I I I think once if if we go out and do a survey and get it all on paper the board could come to a finding that that the the throat coming off of the throat of the roadway coming off of the highway is sufficient and then we don't have to deal with mass Highway a new curb cut a new curb cut yeah um Bob all right I'm going to stick my foot in my mouth now well looking for ideas here I'm the one that widened the road at the entrance oh years ago um years ago the people got together and they asked me to pave them a strip because it kept rutting out the road would uh have three-foot ruts in it and I kept going over there and filling it with gravel and stuff and finally they got together and asked me could you help us and I said yes this was 10 years years ago uh and they said they had the plan and they said what they wanted was uh a wide enough entrance to be able to have two cars one come in one go out right okay and if you if you were there the one road is on the left going up and that's a private driveway that's private driveway yes and then and then the one on the right we made I think it's maybe 12T at the most I think it might be about 12T is I could be 11t because they didn't want to take and make it any bigger because it was it was okay what they wanted to do was contain the water right from going over and running the place out so there was a drainage where the drain where the water goes now I I helped it go there but it always went there yeah and like David said over all these years it's never washed away mhm stable what it does now I looked years ago at the plan they had to put in uh a catch Basin in two or three leech pits and we looked at it and and I said I can't do this because of the if you looked at the trees there's huge pine trees there it's very aesthetic and I said if I do this it's going to destroy everything here and to make the road any wider is not going to help because you're going to take you're going to make it uh like a highway way in here and you don't need it there's only four houses in there I believe and some of the people can go the other way yeah so I said I can I can make it work and so I did make it work and the it's been working fine ever since I did say that when when the sewer goes in here they will make and widen this road up yeah and at that point if they wanted to put drainage in they should think about it but I call it right now is a rain Garden yeah and the water flows in there and David were you there at least after this rainstorm no okay well I know from other rainstorms I'm sure it's fine mhm there's enough there's enough fluff yeah in the ground there to hold the rain and and it actually just flows out and does its thing and the entrance you can I think you could go um it's been there for so long that it's worked and why change it I think yeah that's the subdivision was done in the early 70s I believe or late 60 and so that's correct and so I'm I'm I'm of the thing that they could widen it a little bit but but I would think that like like CS Point like the other places it's 11 12T wide and if there's an emergency they can get up there Y and and uh um well I took a look at that area where they I know I do wait I'm not finished I'm doing I'm going to say that the road is not stable on the hill right what it it it's stable enough to keep it going going right now with the with minimum traffic yeah uh if you st putting heavy trucks and bulldozers and you know excavators and stuff in there that road is not made to take that abuse I only I did the least amount to give them the biggest buck right you know right and and uh it's been doing very well for the past 10 years so uh that's a little background but I'm the one that widen it make it double and and I am against putting a 16t road in there y yeah well when I was out there and I looked where the where that proposed drainage system is um that that SL it slopes down quite a bit there would be a significant amount of it will destroy that everything that have to be removed just to build that right it is um you did it's like a Scupper there that actually collects it and and puts it down in that direction there and and it actually runs off on lot 1B um so that's the that's the uh cuz lot 1B runs all the way down I I don't believe you can use that yeah that lot 1B to put a driveway in yeah I believe the driveway goes to the top they want to make it to the top the board approved access through uh 1A um so there is an there is an easement there I I don't think you I don't think conservation would allow right I don't think you get a driveway where they want it so the access would be up at the upper end of this um current roadway I'm not trying to take it away from you David but yeah like you say uh yeah you've been there now and i' I've been I've been there 25 years um one of the things I would recommend to the owners that they come back with would be a plan um that the trigger point for Road Improvement would be uh on an occupancy permit of the house because I'd hate for to improve the road and then have all the trucks and right and uh cuz uh not only is that Panhandle portion of a lot uh I got topographic issues about 2third of lot 1B does uh so um so I think there's going to be a lot of Earth moving and a lot of equipment coming and going and um I I I don't know if you got a comment from uh um the sewer department on what their target date is for their no I think yet did depart we can't we can't hear you and back there you have to come up um hi I'm Susan Shepard and I'm um the owner of the lot which lot uh zero Evergreen okay this this is this what is referred to as lot 1B 1 B yes okay um so the sewer department apparently is planning to put the sewer up there um between 2026 and 2028 and so they're going to rip up that entire Road at that time and um we'll repave okay when what's what's the timeline for that though between 2026 and 2028 oh 20 oh so that's that's like they're going to they're starting soon yeah that's four years down um I'm in looking at the canopy and the width of that 12T Bob will tell you um you get an excavator in there to trying to swing and dig a trench for sewer M um they're they're going to be taking out a significant amount of that canopy in order to construct that I I think they would and not only that if whatever goes back in there for a roadway if you stabilize the South Side in some way beyond what is there today I think that would be something that would be important to do but I I don't know that the uh sewer Department's going to do that they might just replace what you have and that's it they're not going to solve your problem one one more thing is I I honestly believe that when that lot is sold and going to be built on that they're going to have to put a a water main up there there is a there is a 1in service to this lady's house and that's it yeah so uh I don't think I I looked into that um I don't know if they're going to let well I could not find a statement conditions that was recorded um but um we do have this was the 1970s so the board it wasn't on the board of Health's radar to require that the Lots be served by Town War so um they could put a well in on this property for a building permit question yeah so I go back to my first question is is um what would you like us to do as a board because um you have a plan it's been approved it may not be uh a good plan the abutters do have some concerns and and obje with it I can understand that and I think even the property owner has some concerns and objections on that um I'm looking for some of uh your input from I think your idea of actually going out there and finding out what was actually put back because what what what is shown on these plans is not what's there now correct yeah that that's going to have to be done no matter what and if there is a a modification and if there is going to be a sewer uh replacement uh that would be important to document what that is um the other thing is if there's something that could be proposed on that one slope on the on the on the um toward lot one a I think to stabilize that because that's that will be an issue there essentially you know it slopes roadway and it slopes again and I think that's where the concern would be and I think what Bob had brought up associated with that I don't think there's a BM on the right side going up so I I think a lot of it just sheds as it's coming down the hill yeah um so your rules and regulations require a burm and and that's just sending the problem to one area and the other thing I would do about the storm water is I agree with you that I don't think installing that what was proposed is going to be a good solution but maybe there's some other um avenues that you could bring forward that would still resolve it or or mitigated a little bit more than just what is existing today and that's part of the problem that why this is so frustrating is that dot hasn't changed their standards since 2000 and the wetlands protection act especially the rivers front area which is what we're in um was enacted in 1996 so and as well as the U storm water policy were all in place right when this was being reviewed and somehow it it was overlooked by the the engineer so uh so whates so I I one of the reasons why I suggested that they come before you and it just is to pick your brain to see so I can develop a plan for them and and and see if they want to go forward with it I I would suggest you I wouldn't put a lot of engineering into this I would put the concepts down and and share them with the board um or with Community Development and they can give you feedback Associated uh with this um a little bit of back and forth and and that would take into account what the butters want which is they don't want to see this built the way it's way it was actually approved so and uh and I can understand that I kind of preferred the first plan but yeah well the first plan would have taken out a lot though uh that was 20 ft wide and it went up a couple hundred feet and there was going to be many trees that were going to be remove didn't go all the way up the hill that's what was I liked about it yeah okay is it please come is there any other comments by the board members it's an inform yeah um so I I did have one other part of this so Katie maybe you can explain a little bit um the conditions okay um have three different paragraphs and the about whether the lot can be it says that the lot needs to have these conditions met before it is built upon and then it says that again in terms of getting a something to do with a mortgage but then in the third paragraph it says before it can be conveyed or built upon which we all think was a mistake that it said conveyed because it was had been conveyed several times before we understood that the idea was that these Road changes would only happen if somebody was going to build on the lot so when we bought the lot we bought it because we owned the property next door and we just didn't want anyone building on it so we didn't plan on building on it then we sold the house we hoped that the people who were buying the house were going to also buy the land but right but currently right now it it appears that it's not clear that it can even be sold right without this happening but we already bought it without it happening and we think that that was just a mistake well you I I would I would address that at the same time you come up with all the other pieces to this though I I don't think I I don't want to put the cart before the horse right I don't want to even entertain right asking the board members to actually wave that without understanding the final outcome of what right what we would be doing here because much of this could change anyway and so we might as well wait is what you're saying okay um I have a lot of faith in David he's he's pretty creative guy I think he can come up with something here okay I think the challenge is going to be mot though if if you have to do something with mot that changes a lot of things and if youo if you actually avoid that it that's what I'm trying for because as you can see Mass doot is in the habit of urbanizing Cape God right with the South Orleans rotary and uh they they like yes Granite curbs and oh gosh 24 feet of pavement plus 4ot bike Lanes on both sides so um I would would love to avoid Mast on D one more thing David would pre-existing uh act in their favor on that because it has been used for years and years and years as and and plus it was widened enough for the two cars and you know sometimes I don't trust them I I just look at the old I just look at the old cumbies and they wanted a sidewalk to Nowhere um yeah but that's in a plan the ultimate plan I don't think Em Green is in the ultimate plan um but if you can figure something out without changing the width of the where it meets right 28 then I that's what we're going to try to do or present something to you that there's no sidewalk that can go there so that's that's a plus mot will try well they're going to be walking on water or they're going to be walking on air and falling down the hill well you remember there was no sidewalk on the other side of the street till the late 70s um and they cut into that hill on on the on the North side true but the the other thing that I think Bob would mention this is once you get past that uh that Thro which would take you outside of M jurisdiction I think if there was something done there so that it was clearly um two cars could pass that would be helpful in that section okay very short section it doesn't have to be hundreds of feet or anything like that but I think that think we're close now that would U because you only need you only need it's sort of like a passing Lane one way or the other y um that would make sense too okay uh and I think if you can come up with some ideas on an alternative storm water on it and you're you're familiar that the new regulations are coming out later on this year so from uh DP oh yeah yeah so I would try to get some ideas and as soon unfortunately you know country swes require clearing wide shoulders that's true too that doesn't help we don't want to do that so we Mr chairman we we discussed with some of the people about putting in a rain Garden there okay and the Damage Done yeah to make the rain Garden right is worse than leaving it alone than leaving alone yes I agree with you I mean it worked it's worked for since day one of people living there and it still works and and I'd put it under the road but I need to leave room for the sewer I this this sort of was was started back in the 70s when this was first approved in this private road was actually made available I mean well we we still have a lot of dirt roads in in town that were approved in the 70s so right so East Ham is full of them yeah um so I would suggest that you bring a couple of ideas to um the Community Development staff and they can share them with with me and perhaps we can provide you with some feedback and then bring some of those to the board then okay thank you very very much for your understanding and and help with this okay there again this is an informal meeting I don't know if there's uh we have letters that we got from the butters we'll put them in the file they're basically all saying the same thing just they don't want to have the proposed plan I think everyone here including the applicant is saying the same thing that they're not looking to actually widen the road like that I think we have to come up with what that is first before a lot more reaction so I think we're moving in the direction that all the butters are saying uh we don't know what we're moving into yet so I'm not quite sure we can reserve some of their comments for the next the next round because that might be more fruitful and they can react to it thank you thank you is that okay good all right I think uh the only other thing I want to ask uh KY on under chair's comments is um maybe you can update us on where we are with the uh uh Consultants sure so staff uh met with the Consultants last week um staff met is that better yes staff met with the Consultants last week um we've got another meeting set up for next week I think we should have some data back from them before the end of September um only a week though understandable they they were they were fairly close uh they said that really what it once they have all of the information running the numbers isn't going to be so hard it's all that's all the input first that has to go into it so right exactly so so they'll they'll have some data for us to start to look at towards the end of next week staff will take a look at it I wanted to ask the board uh members if they'd be willing if we have information to provide or the consultant is ready to make a presentation prior to this only scheduled meeting in October which I think is the 28th um would the board be willing to add an additional meeting for that topic only um and I just wanted to put that out there at this point in time I don't know that that will definitely happen but if we have the opportunity to get that moving sooner I think the board would like to do that so am I hearing a positive from the board members I I hear not nods here Charlene yeah you're okay uh Warren I'm certainly subject to you know not having some thing that precludes my attending a meeting whenever it gets well if it's going to be the first two weeks of October I already told the um the staff that uh I'm going to be on a road trip so I'm not even going to be I'm probably going to be in a car driving most of the time so I I will pass this on to the vice chair to lead and I think she'll do an excellent job that she has for the last five years or so so you won't miss me and and you know we could we could even have a conversation about what it looks like I mean the consultants if they're remote we could potentially even have a fully remote meeting because they'll be sharing their screen so we'll have a conversation with them and see what you know what the options are for timing we also have to make sure that the rooms are available there's a lot that will go into scheduling another meeting that we haven't you know we don't already have on the books right so but I think we'd like to get something earlier than so you look at dates and that share that with the board and see if we can AC that yes once we meet with the Consultants again uh towards the end of this week we'll have a better idea about timing okay okay great thanks all right with that uh have I like to hear a motion to adjourn Mr chair I move that we adjourn this meeting second second and it is 7:31 is that right you have to vote Yes I know 7:31 it's just noting the time um so uh let's uh begin with a roll call vote Katherine yes I approve waren chain waren chain approve Charlene greenall approve Frank approve and Bob DS Bob dewis approve and arts Brew I approve nice job [Music] a for